From wrm at ccii.co.za Mon Nov 1 02:51:01 1999 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:17 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 Message-ID: <199911010851.KAA17570@ccii.co.za> Hans said: >>WD7000 scsi/hdd controller > >The WD7000 is an ESDI controller As well as a SCSI controller for the tape drive. The controller in the 3000 is an OMTI-8, looks like MFM. >The bus is completely incompatible with the PC ISA bus. Nothing is likely to >work. Yikes! So why did they call it an ISA bus? Just to get my hopes up, I'm sure. >monitor cable with it but I have one from a Decstation that works OK. They >run a unique OS called Domain which I don't have. Mine has a 300meg ESDI I have some tapes, lessee, from the top of the box, 017062-001 Rev 00 CRTG_FTN_1 FTN V10.7 M/V10.7.MPX 013736 Rev 00 CRTG_PHIGS_1 PHIGS Ver 1.0 017287-001 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_1 System release ver SR10.2 017286-001 Rev 00 CRTG_SFW_BOOT_1 System release ver SR10.2 017287-003 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_3 System release ver SR10.2 017287-002 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_2 System release ver SR10.2 and third party, Auto-trol Technology CREATED JANUARY, 1989 Part No.: 100-74067-003 Rev.:00030B S7K ENCRYPTION KEY MEDIA, APL RELEASE 3.0 LMPI 0303 CARTRIDGE 1 OF 1 ECN: A4222 Wouter BTW, can someone please forward digest 940? Our upstream provider lost an argument with a bulldozer, line was down for most of two days... From wrm at ccii.co.za Mon Nov 1 03:09:18 1999 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 Message-ID: <199911010909.LAA17822@ccii.co.za> red bear said: >> (tony said) >> >> I know that some cards will work in both the Apollo and normal PCs.. > >Tony, you've hit the nail on the head. The Apollo ISA bus is a real ISA >bus. Oh frabjous day! :-) >However, most ISA cards will not work in the machine for one of a number >of reasons: *snip* ROM incompatibility, *snip* OS support, > >Theoretically it would be possible to make any arbitrary ISA card work in >an Apollo if one were to write his own device drivers and software to use >that driver. This driver would have to use no calls at all to the BIOS Ingo Cyliax built a 68030 workstation, and he wrote the drivers for (a specific) VGA and IDE. Also, Linux has drivers for PC cards, and doesn't use the ROMS. That's why I asked if it would be sacrilige for me to rip out (and keep safely, of course) the drives and display cards, etc. I've since learned that the BIOS contains a monitor, so no hassles there. Of course, the first thing I did (before powering up the machine) was to copy the EPROMS (27256 for 3000, 27512 for 3500). I'll put it up for ftp sometime. (My ftp philosophy is, if the owner complains, I'll take it down immediately) >The /ASE has floppy, ESDI, and SCSI interfaces. Don't expect to be able to >boot the Apollo from a SCSI disk, or even to use one at all unless you are The FAQ sez that the SCSI interface doesn't support disks at all. But I hope to boot from the tape... I mean, I don't have any floppies, 'smatter fact, the "server" (3500) has the tape and the "workstation" has the floppy. W From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 1 03:08:12 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <002201bf2412$f72b8920$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: >1) if the goal is to have an "authentic" system, one has to have the >authentic EPROMs with the binary images in them. The spec's for programming >pre-32-pin eproms were not kept secret. > >2) if the goal is simply to have a working system, there are several ways to >get around the ancient EPROM oddities. All of these involve wiring and >maybe even soldering something. The easiest of them, however, is to build >an adapter board with the binary images residing in battery backed rams >intended for substitution for EPROMs, and a simple programmer for them for >those situations when things go wrong. > >3) Now comes the hard part . . . You have to choose. Thats simple, if emulation will make you happy, why stop at the eproms, just run one of the emulators for the whole system on your PC. My goal is to get old systems running at a low cost, and I think that means original or functional equivalent parts. From red at bears.org Mon Nov 1 03:34:56 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <199911010851.KAA17570@ccii.co.za> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Wouter de Waal wrote: > The controller in the 3000 is an OMTI-8, looks like MFM. The "OMTI-8" really refers to several different controllers, some of which are MFM and some of which are ESDI. There are several varieties of ESDI controller in addition, each of which having different features. If you can find a part number, I could probably tell you which you have. > 017062-001 Rev 00 CRTG_FTN_1 FTN V10.7 M/V10.7.MPX Fortran. > 013736 Rev 00 CRTG_PHIGS_1 PHIGS Ver 1.0 PHIGS grpahics libraries. > 017287-001 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_1 System release ver SR10.2 > 017286-001 Rev 00 CRTG_SFW_BOOT_1 System release ver SR10.2 > 017287-003 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_3 System release ver SR10.2 > 017287-002 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_2 System release ver SR10.2 What appears to be a complete SR10.2 install of DOMAIN/OS. 10.2 is an 'undesireable' release as it there is no fix available for the November 1998 clock rollover bug. Unpatched DOMAIN/OS is pretty much guranteed to fall over dead with this problem. The patch is avilable only for 10.4.1 10.3.5 should be the minimum rev of SR10 you look for (like you wouldn't want to run a Solaris 2.1 system), with 10.4.1 being the most recent available. Alternately DOMAIN/IX (SR9) could be fun and is the last SR to support some of the older machines (older than either of yours). ok r. From Bernhard.B.Wulf at OPE.shell.com Mon Nov 1 03:30:58 1999 From: Bernhard.B.Wulf at OPE.shell.com (Wulf, Bernhard B DSAG-RHR-WTC) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: test, don't read Message-ID: <413EA640D4EBD011820300805F599807CEC763@hamhars0005> Just a test. Mit freundlichem Gru? / Regards Bernhard Wulf Rhr-WTC From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Nov 1 08:50:19 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline In-Reply-To: <0.3a10c0b8.254e5406@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991101065019.00959bb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:25 31-10-1999 EST, SUPERDAVE wrote: >> Heresy beyond heresy I would actually like to see people with eprom burners >> be able to make a few bucks by burning the eproms. I think it would make Dave, take a look at www.bluefeathertech.com/devices.html I'm way ahead of you. I've only had a few jobs along those lines, but I've found that there are folks who just need a few prototypes done and they don't want to invest in a programmer. That's where I (and my competition down the road in Arlington, WA) come in (but I'm less expensive than he is). ;-) I don't usually charge if a fellow CLASSICCOMP'er needs a chip or two done. That's along the lines of trading favors, something many businesses won't even consider. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Nov 1 08:52:53 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991101065253.00941ac0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 00:27 01-11-1999 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >Practically, I suspect that a lot of this software is of little >commercial value today, but it is still copyrighted, and can't be just >stuck on a web site. I never said web site. FTP, Tony. FTP. Password-protected at that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 1 09:08:29 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <19991117043219169@ix.netcom.com> On 10/31/99 18:35:52 you wrote: >Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage. >I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer >just such a request myself. I wonder if any of those disks (system esp.) and manual are copyright and if Apple cares. Anyone know if Apple still can provide? > >OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with >DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that >disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc. I have found 1 game disk that will boot the machine and play several "Racing" games but I also don't have paddles (pinouts and parts anyone???) aren't paddles just 100ohm pots? I want to do some programming in BASIC on a simpler machine than my laptop. I have an emulator too is there a way to copy the images from the emulator to the real machine? Thanks all! ron From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 10:07:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <008701bf2483$3fd98940$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I think those paddles were 100 K-ohm pots! Be careful! Dick -----Original Message----- From: rhudson@ix.netcom.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Apple ][ + but no Floppies >On 10/31/99 18:35:52 you wrote: >>Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage. >>I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer >>just such a request myself. >I wonder if any of those disks (system esp.) and manual are copyright and >if Apple cares. Anyone know if Apple still can provide? >> >>OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with >>DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that >>disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc. > >I have found 1 game disk that will boot the machine and play several >"Racing" games but I also don't have paddles (pinouts and parts anyone???) >aren't paddles just 100ohm pots? > >I want to do some programming in BASIC on a simpler machine than my laptop. >I have an emulator too is there a way to copy the images from the emulator >to the real machine? > >Thanks all! >ron > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 1 10:12:55 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <0.be6e6756.254f1607@aol.com> In a message dated 11/1/99 10:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, rhudson@ix.netcom.com writes: > On 10/31/99 18:35:52 you wrote: > >Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage. > >I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer > >just such a request myself. > I wonder if any of those disks (system esp.) and manual are copyright and > if Apple cares. Anyone know if Apple still can provide? > > > >OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with > >DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that > >disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc. > > I have found 1 game disk that will boot the machine and play several > "Racing" games but I also don't have paddles (pinouts and parts anyone???) > aren't paddles just 100ohm pots? > > I want to do some programming in BASIC on a simpler machine than my laptop. > I have an emulator too is there a way to copy the images from the emulator > to the real machine? > > Thanks all! contact me off list and i can set you and/or anyone up with apple disks. DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 10:17:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <009e01bf2484$8a9b9bc0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Now, I didn't say anything about simulation. I suggested a couple of ways of making hardware which emulates the "real McCoy" in that it plugs something other than the original MFG's proms into the sockets. How you get there, or how you proceed afterward is not defined. True, if a simulation hosted on another machine satisfies you, the job is trivial by comparison with getting the old dinosaur to breathe. It's all a question of what it takes to trip your trigger. The fact remains, however, that one could either install copied EPROMs into the sockets, or, in those cases where the EPROMS are no longer readily available, build some sort of hardware-compatible substitute. I merely suggested that one form of HARDWARE emulation, which is more than just substitution of one piece of hardware for another, might be to use those "smart-socket" parts from Dallas Semi and stuff them with RAM which could be written in some way as yet TBD prior to their installation. I've got some UK-made 15-year old 2kx8 battery-powered RAMs which still work. They're an option, though there are others which are somewhat less bulky. The latter substitution seems to me to be a far cry from simulation on a different computer. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:29 AM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >>1) if the goal is to have an "authentic" system, one has to have the >>authentic EPROMs with the binary images in them. The spec's for programming >>pre-32-pin eproms were not kept secret. >> >>2) if the goal is simply to have a working system, there are several ways to >>get around the ancient EPROM oddities. All of these involve wiring and >>maybe even soldering something. The easiest of them, however, is to build >>an adapter board with the binary images residing in battery backed rams >>intended for substitution for EPROMs, and a simple programmer for them for >>those situations when things go wrong. >> >>3) Now comes the hard part . . . You have to choose. > >Thats simple, if emulation will make you happy, why stop at the eproms, >just run one of the emulators for the whole system on your PC. My goal is >to get old systems running at a low cost, and I think that means original >or functional equivalent parts. > > From bruce.a.lane at boeing.com Mon Nov 1 11:45:31 1999 From: bruce.a.lane at boeing.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: A sad day for DPT... Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991101094531.009177c0@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Heck, a sad day for storage overall! Adaptec has swallowed up yet another customer-friendly SCSI adapter maker. See: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1425979.html?tag=st.ne.1002.thed.1003-2 00-1425979 While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of said legacy gear? Adaptec, from what I can see, is getting dangerously close to turning into the Micro$haft of the SCSI adapter world. (Kai, if you're reading this... I'm sorry. I know you work for MS, and I want you to know that I don't hold it against you in any way, but I think everyone on the list knows how I feel about Billy-boy and his Evil Empire). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. Bruce Lane, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, PWSSG Computing DC Campus, 9-98.2, Col. N11 (206) 655-8996 laneb@bcstec.ca.boeing.com OR http://bcstec.ca.boeing.com/~laneb From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 12:13:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: A sad day for DPT... Message-ID: <00b801bf2494$ddfd7bc0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> It won't be long before it comes down to MYLEX, whose raid products work, and ADAPTEC, whose raid products don't. Of course, the DPT controllers worked and that didn't keep adaptec from buying them up, and Symbios/NCR controllers worked fine, yet ADAPTEC bought them up. Wouldn't it be cheaper for ADAPTEC to make products that work instead up buying the companies that do that? Once upon a time, ADAPTEC made really good products. I know, I have some of them still working, e.g. 1542A boards, 1522, 1510's. All my 2940's are broken, and my 3940 only "sorta" works. Now, I set up DPT and MYLEX raid interface hardware at my ISP a couple of years back, and it hasn't hiccupped even once. That's half a dozen servers with a combined storage volume of over a TB, all RAID-5 . . . Too bad . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 10:46 AM Subject: A sad day for DPT... > Heck, a sad day for storage overall! Adaptec has swallowed up yet another >customer-friendly SCSI adapter maker. See: > >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1425979.html?tag=st.ne.1002.thed.1003- 2 >00-1425979 > > While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use >more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one >using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager >what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of >said legacy gear? > > Adaptec, from what I can see, is getting dangerously close to turning into >the Micro$haft of the SCSI adapter world. > > (Kai, if you're reading this... I'm sorry. I know you work for MS, and I >want you to know that I don't hold it against you in any way, but I think >everyone on the list knows how I feel about Billy-boy and his Evil Empire). > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent >the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. >Bruce Lane, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, PWSSG Computing >DC Campus, 9-98.2, Col. N11 (206) 655-8996 >laneb@bcstec.ca.boeing.com OR http://bcstec.ca.boeing.com/~laneb > From elvey at hal.com Mon Nov 1 12:24:18 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911011824.KAA20490@civic.hal.com> Hi One of the problems I see is for things like BIOS's for PC's. There were several people making compatible BIOS's for a period of time. If one was replacing a BIOS made by another company, I'm sure it would be considered a violation of copyright. The entire thing is sticky. Many of the newer BIOS's are specific to the hardware and wouldn't work on another machine unless it had the same chipsets. I also have interest in pinball machines. There are those that are archiving ROM's for these but they know they are on shaky ground. If someone officially complained, they'd have to shut down. One pinball company ( that just announced that it was leaving the pinball business ) had an archive for its older machines. On a side note, I have an old 4004 development system with three 1702A's that are still functional. ( it also programs 1702's or 1702A's ). I am able to program 2708's on a Cromemco board and have a programmer that can do 2716 on up. I would still have problems with anything marked as copyrighted. Dwight From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 1 13:45:45 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: A sad day for DPT... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991101094531.009177c0@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: > While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use >more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one >using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager >what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of >said legacy gear? Go to the front of the ftp and select download site. Wait to find out what will happen at your own peril. BTW Adaptec is certainly interested in profit, but they otherwise seem a far cry from MS, Adaptec stuff works. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 12:54:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 1, 99 01:08:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1009 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/f81c81e0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 12:56:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <199911010909.LAA17822@ccii.co.za> from "Wouter de Waal" at Nov 1, 99 11:09:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 554 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/045d3bd6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 12:47:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <002201bf2412$f72b8920$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 31, 99 07:44:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/3f85ec81/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 13:43:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies In-Reply-To: <19991117043219169@ix.netcom.com> from "rhudson@ix.netcom.com" at Nov 1, 99 10:08:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1044 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/dc87e473/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 15:15:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <000c01bf24ae$4374c9e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I agree, mostly, with what you've said here, Tony. The easy fix, in many cases will be to program the code into several larger but readily available and easily programmed parts, then wire an adapter from the target board's socket to the physical EPROM on the board on which the EPROM resides, with a pair of appropriately sized IDC ribbon cable headers crimped on the ends of the cable. That should work, even if you have to hang the adapter board from a hanger in the rack. Packaging problems are what the REAL engineers work hardest at, while the youngsters conjure up the fancy circuits. This is mostly a packaging problem. The higher speeds of today's common and cheap parts will compensate for the few nanoseconds lost in cables, even if some form of termination has to be introduced. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 1:50 PM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >> Thats simple, if emulation will make you happy, why stop at the eproms, >> just run one of the emulators for the whole system on your PC. My goal is > >Oh, come on, there's a heck of a difference between replacing an EPROM >with a more modern (and larger) one containing the same code and running >an emulator for the entire machine on a PC. Well, certainly to a hardware >hacker there's a difference :-) > >> to get old systems running at a low cost, and I think that means original >> or functional equivalent parts. > >Ah, but the modern/larger EPROM _is_ a functional equivalent part. > >Yes, obviously you use the original type of EPROM if at all possible. But >if you _can't_ get the part, then it makes a lot of sense to use (say) a >2764 with the same code in it. > >A secondary issue occurs when the original part was a mask-programmed >ROM. They can fail as well... Or you might want to make some changes to >the code. In that case you virtually have to use an EPROM and make an >adapter. > >> >> >> > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 15:50:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:18 2005 Subject: RANT about ADAPTEC (was A sad day for DPT...) Message-ID: <001501bf24b3$33c5a500$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I've got to disagree with the remark that "Adaptec stuff works." I participated in a year-long beta test of some of their CD authoring software four or five years back, and found, (1) they didn't care whether their doc's were synchronized with their software, often leaving out key words like "not" and equally key words and phrases, and (2) the happily made claims, both oral and written, which not only they, but anyone who understood the technology, knew were totally false and would not and could not be made true by technological innovation anytime soon. They happily ship software which can't possibly achieve what they claim to be routine. I remember that, shortly before the release of their PCI SCSI adapters, they claimed to be able to effect sustained transfers of 80MB/sec via their 2940. While I completely agreed that that was a theoretical figure, obtainable in bursts, perhaps, I challenged them to prepare a demo in which one of their 2940's effected data transfers both in and out of a PC at that rate, or even half that rate for a relatively short test, say 100 hours without losing data in vast quantity. The problem, of course, is that a claim of this sort is simply useless, since it assumes that the SCSI channel gets all the bandwidth and the rest of the system gets none. Keep in mind, BTW, that at that time, (1994-95) the PC was not looking at 133 MHz PCI rates. Adaptec, for years, shipped a series of ISA-Bus controllers, the 15xx series, which worked VERY well. Their BIOS was a mite weak, perhaps, but the things did work, day in and day out, and I still use them in my home-office Network Server. I've had one running for nearly eight years without a hitch in that box. The only problem I ever had with it was that the power supply failed. That was probably because their BIOS wasn't smart enough to spin the drives up one at a time as they presently do. The 450-watt PSU probably wasn't comfortable with all the load on +12 while they spun up. Once they went to PCI, their advertisement, always a mite "over the line" as far as I'm concerned, their claims being a little too good to be realistic, even in the days of the 1542. Once they determined that Trantor had a few good products, particularly in their firmware, and in their Parallel<=>SCSI port adapters, they bought them up. A couple of years back, I tested a number of these products, finding that, not only did their AHA358 fail in every test to equal their previous AHA348 (a Trantor design) but it failed in every way to match the performance they claimed. I look for them to buy up the BELKIN Parallel<=>SCSI before long, since it works so much better than their own. It gets better performance on my Toshiba notebook than their PC-card (AHA1460) does and holds its own in the WINBOOK. When ADAPTEC found that NCR/Symbios was producing cheaper PCI adapters, not to mention lots of ISA versions, they quickly bought them up. Now all that remained was the RAID market and you see what they've done there. I guess the only thing to do is buy shares in MYLEX. When NT4 was released, ADAPTEC didn't have NT drivers for their multi-port PCI boards. They claimed to have RAID support, but had no NT Drivers for their 3940 (dial-port) or 398x (triple-port) boards. After a while, a driver popped up for the 3940, but I still haven't managed to get mine to work properly in a fully loaded box. It does work (mostly) in a meagerly equipped system like a server, though, so that's fine. I don't worry about the 398x series any more. Observation has taught me that their tech support is intended to "get rid of" customer complaints, not to rectify them and it's also taught me to monitor on-line refunds from them VERY closely. They still owe me for a defectively designed device I returned to them back in '95 and the freight, which was charged to me. ...sigh... Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 12:51 PM Subject: Re: A sad day for DPT... >> While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use >>more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one >>using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager >>what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of >>said legacy gear? > >Go to the front of the ftp and select download site. Wait to find out what >will happen at your own peril. > >BTW Adaptec is certainly interested in profit, but they otherwise seem a >far cry from MS, Adaptec stuff works. > > From rolney at thegrid.net Mon Nov 1 15:53:46 1999 From: rolney at thegrid.net (Ronald Olney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Amdek Color 1 monitor Message-ID: <199911012158.NAA18980@pop.thegrid.net> I have two Amdek Color 1 monitors and need a schematic diagram in order to service them. Can you help? Ron Olney rolney@thegrid.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:03:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf24ae$4374c9e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 1, 99 02:15:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/bafff759/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:28:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Amdek Color 1 monitor In-Reply-To: <199911012158.NAA18980@pop.thegrid.net> from "Ronald Olney" at Nov 1, 99 01:53:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2282 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/81f22ffe/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 1 17:09:53 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 1, 99 01:08:12 am Message-ID: >> to get old systems running at a low cost, and I think that means original >> or functional equivalent parts. > >Ah, but the modern/larger EPROM _is_ a functional equivalent part. > >Yes, obviously you use the original type of EPROM if at all possible. But >if you _can't_ get the part, then it makes a lot of sense to use (say) a >2764 with the same code in it. > >A secondary issue occurs when the original part was a mask-programmed >ROM. They can fail as well... Or you might want to make some changes to >the code. In that case you virtually have to use an EPROM and make an >adapter. I don't think we disagree. Whatever part that is handy and works is fine with me. One off fabrication of an adapter for a nothing special less than $50 retail value target system though isn't cost effective. Even some sort of genric adapter may not be a cost effective solution, since many of the systems I would like to save need to earn their keep, ie value as a usefull item, not a collectible item. I used to burn eproms half a dozen times a day and had it setup to take very little time via some software and a custom board in a Apple II, but I don't know if I still have it. If I do, then it is a short step to moving it to a IIgs and suddenly its a nice networked solution to read and write. Aaack, thats the downside to living in a huge pile of old computers, sometimes you get the notion of finding something. From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Nov 1 18:03:03 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono! Message-ID: <000701bf24c5$c1137ba0$01c8a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I just got my hands on a Hayes Chronograph. No box, but complete with wall wart, and manuals. It's fatter than I thought that it would be -- about 2x the size of a standard Hayse stack modem. It has a calibration port on the back, as well as a write-protect switch. It works great! The time is wrong, but it works! Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Mon Nov 1 18:35:33 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Vax 3100 Runs good (fwd) Message-ID: If interested, please reply directly to the original sender. Reply-to: nwhite@stern.nyu.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:19:46 -0500 From: "Norman H. White" Subject: Vax 3100 Runs good I have a Vax 3100 workstation that still runs, I hate to trash it and am looking for somone to take it off my hands. It is running VMS 5.1 and has 3 internal 100MB hard drives, a CDROM, an external TK50 and a 1 gigabyte scsi drive. Interested? --- Sellam International Man of Intrique and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 19:00:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 1, 99 03:09:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 987 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/f405927e/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 19:04:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <002a01bf24ce$3db1f940$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I agree on both points, but if the cable is not longer than a foot or so, it's likely to work fine. Certainly it's likely that one could figure out a better way, on a case-by-case basis, but I just wanted to throw a very general solution at the problem, one which everyone would easily understand. It won't be hard to improve on that one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >> >> I agree, mostly, with what you've said here, Tony. The easy fix, in many >> cases will be to program the code into several larger but readily available >> and easily programmed parts, then wire an adapter from the target board's >> socket to the physical EPROM on the board on which the EPROM resides, with a >> pair of appropriately sized IDC ribbon cable headers crimped on the ends of >> the cable. That should work, even if you have to hang the adapter board > >I'd be a little careful about hanging lengths of ribbon cable off an >EPROM socket (the signals on which may well not be buffered). I am not >saying it won't work -- many times it will, but I'd not do it unless >necessary. > >Many times there's enough space around the EPROM socket and/or between >the boards in the cardcage to allow for a simpler replacement method. The >fact that most EPROM pinouts are similar helps here. Tricks include : > >1) Bending out those pins of the EPROM that are different (high-order >address lines, for example), plugging the rest into the socket and >soldering wires to the ones you've bent out > >2) Replacing the socket on the board with a wire-wrap socket. Wrap wires >around the pins that are different, and cut those pins short. Then solder >the remaining pins to the board so that the 'different' ones don't touch >the tracks (the socket is probably about 0.5" above the board). Solder >the ends of the wires to appropriate points. Insert the EPROM. > >3) Make an adapter. In the UK you can get pin strips designed to plug >into turned pin IC sockets. What I normally do is replace the EPROM >socket on the PCB with a turned-pin one of the same size. Then take a >piece of stripboard and solder a socket for the new EPROM to it (cutting >the tracks down the middle). Then solder pin strips to the track-side of >the stripboard with one spare hole between the socket pins and the pin >strips. Then cut tracks for the pins you don't want to connect straight, >and then solder wires (wire-wrap wire is good for this) on the track side >of the stripboard to make the necessary connections. Plug the adapter >into the socket on the PCB and plug the EPROM into the socket on the adapter. > >4) Ditto, but etch a PCB rather than using stripboard. > >5) Read the tech manual for the machine (!). It's not uncommon for >machines that use mask-programmed ROMs to have some way of using EPROMs >instead. There may be links for this on the board, for example. > >> from a hanger in the rack. Packaging problems are what the REAL engineers >> work hardest at, while the youngsters conjure up the fancy circuits. This >> is mostly a packaging problem. The higher speeds of today's common and >> cheap parts will compensate for the few nanoseconds lost in cables, even if >> some form of termination has to be introduced. > >I'd be more worried about the stray capacitance and noise pickup from the >ribbon cable than the delay it introduces. > >-tony > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Nov 1 19:10:39 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono! In-Reply-To: <000701bf24c5$c1137ba0$01c8a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991101171039.0685036c@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:03 PM 11/01/1999 -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: >Hello, all: > > I just got my hands on a Hayes Chronograph. No box, but complete with >wall wart, and manuals. Aw, you bum! I've been looking for one of those! B^} (congrats) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 1 19:14:00 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991101171039.0685036c@agora.rdrop.com> References: <000701bf24c5$c1137ba0$01c8a8c0@office1> <3.0.3.32.19991101171039.0685036c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <19991101191400.E19786@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 05:10:39PM -0800, James Willing wrote: > At 07:03 PM 11/01/1999 -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >Hello, all: > > I just got my hands on a Hayes Chronograph. No box, but complete with > >wall wart, and manuals. > Aw, you bum! I've been looking for one of those! B^} (congrats) > -jim > --- > jimw@computergarage.org > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 I've still got an original Hayes Smartmodem 300 in original box (kinda beat-up, but its the original box) w/manuals, etc, and even an ad in the manual for the chronograph! 8-) If anybody needs one for their collection, let me know, I'll let it go for cost of shipping. Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Nov 1 13:16:26 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <007b01bf242d$44966b20$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991101131626.21871dbc@earthlink.net> At 10:52 PM 10/31/99 -0700, Richard wrote: >There certainly were a few vendors whose systems were as much off-center as >the N*. Just take a look at Vector Graphics' systems, for example. I once >owned a couple of those, with their memory-mapped video refresh memory. What was wrong with their "flashwriter", at least for that time, late 1970's? It was very similar to the Processor Tech's "VDM", and cost a whole lot less than a text VDU. You could move its location in memory if desired, but had to have matching drivers. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Nov 1 18:39:41 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991101065019.00959bb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <0.3a10c0b8.254e5406@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991101183941.1ff73d4c@earthlink.net> At 06:50 AM 11/1/99 -0800, Bruce wrote: > > > > > Dave, take a look at www.bluefeathertech.com/devices.html > > I'm way ahead of you. I've only had a few jobs along those lines but I've. Hi Bruce, Can you program 1702A's? How about the similar National part 5203? Both are 256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?). -Dave From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 1 20:19:59 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Data General Nova References: <000701bf24c5$c1137ba0$01c8a8c0@office1> <3.0.3.32.19991101171039.0685036c@agora.rdrop.com> <19991101191400.E19786@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <381E4A4F.D83055A8@rain.org> I met a friend of mine today who showed me a Data General computer (Nova 4) that looks like it will be scrapped out, and of course, I offered to take it off their hands. This includes two disk drive units, and the electronics out of the three 19" cabinets. It appears they want the cabinets themselves for one of their projects. It is not available yet, but they will call me when it does become available and I offered to remove the electronics from the racks if they decide to keep the cabinets. Anyone on the list who might be interested in this stuff? I am assuming it is worth saving. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 22:43:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <004d01bf24ec$d808cb40$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The same thing was "wrong" (meaning that it irritated me and offended my sense of how things should be) as with the N*, in that they used memory space I wanted to use. Consequently, I never seriously used, nor did I ever promote them. It was no big deal, but at the time I thought that it was. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dameron To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >At 10:52 PM 10/31/99 -0700, Richard wrote: >>There certainly were a few vendors whose systems were as much off-center as >>the N*. Just take a look at Vector Graphics' systems, for example. I once >>owned a couple of those, with their memory-mapped video refresh memory. > >What was wrong with their "flashwriter", at least for that time, late >1970's? It was very similar to the Processor Tech's "VDM", and cost a whole >lot less than a text VDU. You could move its location in memory if desired, >but had to have matching drivers. >-Dave > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 1 22:48:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline Message-ID: <005401bf24ed$7bd26ba0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well . . . the 6834, IIRC, was a two-ported RAM plus some I/O. Its features were designed into the MC68121, which was a 6803 with the two-ported RAM and I/O built in. It was not, to the best of my recollection, available in an EPROM version. The 5203's were really tricky to progam, but they were pretty! I made several into jewelry. I did that with a couple of 1702's also, and an i8008, having plucked them directly from working applications. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dameron To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 6:54 PM Subject: Re: EPROM sideline >At 06:50 AM 11/1/99 -0800, Bruce wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Dave, take a look at www.bluefeathertech.com/devices.html >> >> I'm way ahead of you. I've only had a few jobs along those lines >but I've. > >Hi Bruce, >Can you program 1702A's? How about the similar National part 5203? Both are >256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?). >-Dave > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 2 00:00:53 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: A sad day for DPT... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991101094531.009177c0@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991101220053.0097a100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 11:45 01-11-1999 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Go to the front of the ftp and select download site. Wait to find out what >will happen at your own peril. Already done. I archived everything I use for my own boards, and a few other things besides. >BTW Adaptec is certainly interested in profit, but they otherwise seem a >far cry from MS, Adaptec stuff works. That's debatable. Their older stuff works great! (154x, 174x, 164x, etc.), but I discovered the hard way that the 2940UW doesn't seem to work reliably on a system with a 100MHz front-side bus. Others have had bad luck with some of their RAID products in the AAA series. I just installed an Initio card in my system. Worked flawlessly, full-speed, no glitches, no headaches. Far cry from having to install a separate ISA-based SCSI adapter for my CD-ROM because the 2940 didn't like me using both internal connectors and the external at the same time. Anyway, this is hardly classic stuff, so I'll let the subject drop. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 2 00:10:17 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991101183941.1ff73d4c@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19991101065019.00959bb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <0.3a10c0b8.254e5406@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991101221017.0097edf0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:39 01-11-1999, Dave Dameron wrote: >Can you program 1702A's? Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of. >How about the similar National part 5203? Both are >256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?). Neither one is listed on my device chart, so I would have to say no. Sorry about that. The problem is that Data I/O keeps information about how to actually program the UniSite's innards a closely-guarded secret, so I have no way to even try to cobble something together. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 2 00:41:36 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: FW: Help.. AcerAnyWare 386S laptop system disk In-Reply-To: <01bf2486$9fd1af00$2a4836ca@dtevsnl.net.in.vsnl.net.in> References: <01bf2486$9fd1af00$2a4836ca@dtevsnl.net.in.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: Now THIS qualifies as 'classic...' Found on Usenet. Anyone have the system disk he's looking for? If so, I bet he'd be Really Happy to hear from you. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On 2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote: >>From: "Thomas" >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc >>Subject: Help.. AcerAnyWare 386S laptop system disk >>Date: 2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT >>Organization: VSNL >>Lines: 4 >>Message-ID: <01bf2486$9fd1af00$2a4836ca@dtevsnl.net.in.vsnl.net.in> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp72-42.pppcal.vsnl.net.in >>X-Trace: news.vsnl.net.in 941514463 19081 202.54.72.42 (2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: postmaster@news.vsnl.net.in >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 03:47:43 GMT >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.vsnl.net.in!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:405 >> >>Hello... >>Pl. help me if you have the system disk of old AcerAnyWare 386S laptop. >> >>Thanks.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From chrish at kootenay.net Tue Nov 2 02:01:52 1999 From: chrish at kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: To give away leading edge-computer/monitor and printer Message-ID: <381E9A6C.88DBF80@kootenay.net> Hey Guys(and Gals) Before it gors to the dumpster anybody want a leading edge model DC-2011 computer w/leading edge model DR-1240 mono monitor and a OKIDATA model U-92 MICROLINE printer will giveaway as one unit or in peices for the cost of shipping or will get parts and boards out of the computer if you want comes with a seagate HD not sure how big. If interested please respond thanx for the use of the bandwith :) Chris Halarewich In Castlegar BC, Canada From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 07:22:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <004d01bf24ec$d808cb40$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: > The same thing was "wrong" (meaning that it irritated me and offended my > sense of how things should be) as with the N*, in that they used memory > space I wanted to use. Consequently, I never seriously used, nor did I ever > promote them. It was no big deal, but at the time I thought that it was. My solution was far more reasonable. Map it at 4000h and set a bit to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it was pretty trivial. Allison From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 2 08:08:03 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <1999112610936334@ix.netcom.com> I just managed to get control of the machine while checking out a "Games" disk and I now have DOS 3.3 How can I transfer the Binary files (non basic) to my newly formatted disk. All it has is a HELLO basic program. (like INTBASIC and FPBASIC and D800 (?)) Thanks All. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 09:13:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <001101bf2544$dd8136e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Yes, there were several ways in which the N* could be modified to work better and meet the target of providing a full 64K TPA and handling CP/M standard diskettes. The easiest way, however, was to use hardware from other MFG's, which didn't require modification. It happens that hardware from other MFG's was less costly as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 6:22 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >> The same thing was "wrong" (meaning that it irritated me and offended my >> sense of how things should be) as with the N*, in that they used memory >> space I wanted to use. Consequently, I never seriously used, nor did I ever >> promote them. It was no big deal, but at the time I thought that it was. > >My solution was far more reasonable. Map it at 4000h and set a bit >to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still >faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that >way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it >was pretty trivial. > >Allison > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Nov 2 09:17:13 1999 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy Message-ID: Any info on these mature computer components? I was looking in a stack of pallet sized boxes at the local computer surplus and I came across a Alpha Micro 1021 computer. It appears to be about 2' by 2' by 1.5' with a series of DB25 connectors on the back. I couldn't move the top box to gain access to the lower box. I couldn't see much more than the exterior. An adjacent box had a Black Box brand case in it with two drives inside one 8" and one 5 1/4". They look like they have a ribbon connector interface to a computer. Another box had a HP 2392A terminal inside. All of these boxes are covered with dirt and crud, I hope no bird droppings, toxoplasmosis is not a disease I want to catch. I may have to take 4-5 hours and dig through all of the boxes to see what's inside. Kind of like looking for buried treasure, lots of dirt and crud before you find the gold. Maybe the smart choice is to offer $20 for the lot, I think they send all of the non PC stuff to China. Any information would be appreciated. If I don't want/need them maybe someone else does. We can work out shipping. Mike McFadden mmcfadden@cmh.edu From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 09:18:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline Message-ID: <002001bf2545$95f38980$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I used many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they haven't entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have they? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 11:09 PM Subject: Re: EPROM sideline >At 18:39 01-11-1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > >>Can you program 1702A's? > > Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's >pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never >developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of. > >>How about the similar National part 5203? Both are >>256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?). > > Neither one is listed on my device chart, so I would have to say no. Sorry >about that. The problem is that Data I/O keeps information about how to >actually program the UniSite's innards a closely-guarded secret, so I have >no way to even try to cobble something together. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 2 12:00:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991102120022.47973f20@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:17 AM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote: >Any info on these mature computer components? > >I was looking in a stack of pallet sized boxes at the local computer >surplus and I came across a Alpha Micro 1021 computer. It appears to be >about 2' by 2' by 1.5' with a series of DB25 connectors on the back. I >couldn't move the top box to gain access to the lower box. I couldn't see >much more than the exterior. I used to have an Alpha Micro 100 but I don't know how similar it would be to the 1021. The AM 100 was a S-100 bus computer but was *16* bit. Check the AM 1021, if it's S-100 I'd grab it! Alpha Micro is still in business and has a website. They MIGHT be ablke to provide more info but they disavowed all knowledge of the AM 100. > >An adjacent box had a Black Box brand case in it with two drives inside one >8" and one 5 1/4". They look like they have a ribbon connector interface to >a computer. Sounds promising! > >Another box had a HP 2392A terminal inside. It's just a 12" CRT type terminal. Nothing special. I have it in my 1985 HP catalog, ask if you need more innfo. I'd pass on it unless it looks like it was used with the AM 1021. > >All of these boxes are covered with dirt and crud, I hope no bird droppings, >toxoplasmosis is not a disease I want to catch. I may have to take 4-5 hours >and dig through all of the boxes to see what's inside. Kind of like looking >for buried treasure, lots of dirt and crud before you find the gold. > >Maybe the smart choice is to offer $20 for the lot, I think they send all of >the non PC stuff to China. Any information would be appreciated. If I don't >want/need them maybe someone else does. We can work out shipping. > >Mike McFadden >mmcfadden@cmh.edu I don't need it but I can point you to the guy that bought my AM 100. He might be interested. If it's S-100, someone will want it. Joe > > > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Nov 2 10:42:02 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono! In-Reply-To: <19991101191400.E19786@mrbill.net> Message-ID: I've always wanted one of these as well.... Anybody got a clue how well this machine will handle the Year 2000 rollover? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 05:10:39PM -0800, James Willing wrote: > > At 07:03 PM 11/01/1999 -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > >Hello, all: > > > I just got my hands on a Hayes Chronograph. No box, but complete with > > >wall wart, and manuals. > > Aw, you bum! I've been looking for one of those! B^} (congrats) > > -jim > > --- > > jimw@computergarage.org > > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > I've still got an original Hayes Smartmodem 300 in original box > (kinda beat-up, but its the original box) w/manuals, etc, and even > an ad in the manual for the chronograph! 8-) > > If anybody needs one for their collection, let me know, I'll let it > go for cost of shipping. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net > mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, > because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." > -- Unknown > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 10:52:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <001101bf2544$dd8136e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, there were several ways in which the N* could be modified to work > better and meet the target of providing a full 64K TPA and handling CP/M > standard diskettes. > > The easiest way, however, was to use hardware from other MFG's, which didn't > require modification. It happens that hardware from other MFG's was less > costly as well. Well in 1978 (early) that was not the case, sure there were lots of players and junk but the minifloppy was still quite new and people were not quite able to get clear of sticker shock for 32k of ram! The NS* was a good cpu, good box (backplane and basic serial/parallel IO) That for the price was good. There were other boxes, but the really nice stuff I lusted for were appearing in the early 80s. By then the NS* was hard at work (with upgrades). Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 12:28:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <000801bf2560$12936180$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The N* Horizon was a late entry in the S-100 market, and, though it was priced competitively with CROMEMCO and VECTOR GRAPHICS systems, it didn't come in at a lower price than component systems using boards purchased individually based on comparison-shopping for the best price/function tradeoff. As I mentioned previously, I used the SD Systems or CCS boards. Both of these CPU's included an on-board serial port which was used by the firmware as the console port. What's more, their FDC's handled both drive sizes, albeit in soft-sectored format only, straight out of the box. I don't remember the details of the comparison shopping ventures, but would not have used individually chosen boards or, in the case of CCS, board sets, if there were no price advantage. The CCS board set was always quite trouble-free, and the SD Systems memory boards were the only boards of theirs that ever gave me headaches, though that was seldom. The N* didn't work well with KONAN (SMD) or MSC HDC's either. I didn't investigate this full, however. It didn't work, well, on to the next one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Yes, there were several ways in which the N* could be modified to work >> better and meet the target of providing a full 64K TPA and handling CP/M >> standard diskettes. >> >> The easiest way, however, was to use hardware from other MFG's, which didn't >> require modification. It happens that hardware from other MFG's was less >> costly as well. > >Well in 1978 (early) that was not the case, sure there were lots of >players and junk but the minifloppy was still quite new and people were >not quite able to get clear of sticker shock for 32k of ram! > >The NS* was a good cpu, good box (backplane and basic serial/parallel IO) >That for the price was good. There were other boxes, but the really nice >stuff I lusted for were appearing in the early 80s. By then the NS* was >hard at work (with upgrades). > >Allison > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 2 12:28:32 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline In-Reply-To: <002001bf2545$95f38980$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <002001bf2545$95f38980$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <19991102182832.12569.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I used > many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they haven't > entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have they? You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info (such as family and part codes) from their web site. > Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's > pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never > developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of. I'd be *very* surprised if the pin drivers came anywhere close to being able to suport the 1702 or 5203, or some of the very early exotic PROMs. The Unisite was designed to support mainstream parts being produced in the mid 80s, none of which required voltages above 25V or below ground. A friend just picked up a Unisite for $200. I've been looking for a good deal on one for 13 years, but I don't ever seem to find them. The closest I got was about four years ago; AT&T capital was selling one for $800 and I might have been willing to buy, except that it had already sold the day before. Sigh. Data I/O recently (within the last few years) started putting some kind of 80 MB removable data storage device (disk? flash?) in their model 2900 and 3900 programmers. When will they get a clue and put a friggin Ethernet interface on them? Geting bits into the programmer has always been their weak point. Their async serial ports are too slow (even at 115.2 Kbps) for dealing with modern EPROMs and flash parts. On the models with floppy drives, you'd think that sticking in a floppy with the data would be fast, but no, they've managed to make that ridiculously slow as well. Maybe they think this will get customers to buy more programmers from them: "Hmmm... for this product I'll need to burn sets of eight 32-megabit flash parts for each version of the software. It will take three hours each for the download. I can spend three work days for each version, or buy eight 2900s and do it all in three hours." On the other hand, Hanlon's razor says "never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 2 12:29:33 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991102182933.12585.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > My solution was far more reasonable. Map it at 4000h and set a bit > to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still > faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that > way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it > was pretty trivial. And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled? From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 14:00:28 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline) Message-ID: <19991102200028.2524.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O... > > You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support > for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info > (such as family and part codes) from their web site. Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that I have check, but ISTR that it's a model 29. It was purchased in the early 1980's to program 6309 256x8 PROMS (the same kind that are on the Apple ][ disk card) for an early MC68K design. I got it over 5 years ago to support those very same cards but have never used it. For my typical EPROM stuff, I have a PeeCee-based programmer with a 40-pin socket in a D-to-A box that programs most stuff up to 1Mbit, both logic and memory devices. I use it to blow GALs for my Amiga product. To solve the data-in problem, I've got the programmer in a Commodore Colt w/8003 NIC and I use Kermit over TCP/IP to move data in and out. It's not as portable as an integrated ROM blaster would be, but it works great for me. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 14:02:10 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <19991102182933.12585.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > My solution was far more reasonable. Map it at 4000h and set a bit > > to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still > > faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that > > way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it > > was pretty trivial. > > And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled? Ah, ever hear of phantom... part of the MDS-A and VDM IO hack was to set them up to output Phantom, in both cases it was just a jumper required. The disable was simpler, MDS-A has a rarely used sector interupt enable latch and the VDM used a bunch of bits for windowshading, something I considered useless and removed from the board (a few socket level jumpers) and I had the bit I needed for enable. If they were enabled phantom was generated, if they were not ram was there. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 13:35:40 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <001501bf2569$72d63d20$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> That was my point, exactly. One shouldn't have to hack a new machine in order to make it what one wants. That's doubly true when you can buy what you want for less and not have to hack it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >Allison wrote: >> My solution was far more reasonable. Map it at 4000h and set a bit >> to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still >> faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that >> way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it >> was pretty trivial. > >And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled? From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 13:37:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: EPROM sideline Message-ID: <001a01bf2569$b7974080$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> That's why I recommended the moderate "hack" that amounts to building a circuit with cheap and available substitute(s) and make adapter cable(s) to the various place(s) where such substitution will be needed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:50 AM Subject: Re: EPROM sideline >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I used >> many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they haven't >> entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have they? > >You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support >for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info >(such as family and part codes) from their web site. > >> Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's >> pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never >> developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of. > >I'd be *very* surprised if the pin drivers came anywhere close to being >able to suport the 1702 or 5203, or some of the very early exotic >PROMs. The Unisite was designed to support mainstream parts being >produced in the mid 80s, none of which required voltages above 25V or >below ground. > >A friend just picked up a Unisite for $200. I've been looking for a good >deal on one for 13 years, but I don't ever seem to find them. The closest >I got was about four years ago; AT&T capital was selling one for $800 >and I might have been willing to buy, except that it had already sold >the day before. Sigh. > >Data I/O recently (within the last few years) started putting some kind >of 80 MB removable data storage device (disk? flash?) in their model 2900 >and 3900 programmers. When will they get a clue and put a friggin >Ethernet interface on them? Geting bits into the programmer has always >been their weak point. Their async serial ports are too slow (even >at 115.2 Kbps) for dealing with modern EPROMs and flash parts. On the >models with floppy drives, you'd think that sticking in a floppy with the >data would be fast, but no, they've managed to make that ridiculously >slow as well. Maybe they think this will get customers to buy more >programmers from them: "Hmmm... for this product I'll need to burn >sets of eight 32-megabit flash parts for each version of the software. >It will take three hours each for the download. I can spend three work >days for each version, or buy eight 2900s and do it all in three hours." >On the other hand, Hanlon's razor says "never ascribe to malice that which >can be adequately explained by stupidity." From mhustved at umich.edu Tue Nov 2 14:26:36 1999 From: mhustved at umich.edu (Marc Hustvedt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: VMS architects Message-ID: <011e01bf2570$9009f600$2767d38d@mpathways.umich.edu> OZIX was the operating system for PRISM, one of several 32-bit RISC architectures that DEC was developing at one point. When it was canned, Dave Cutler once again threatened to walk, and DEC took him up on it. Anyway, later, DEC was anxious to get Windows/NT for Alpha, and so signed an agreement before they saw the code that everything in there belonged to Microsoft and that they had no claim to it. Afterwards, some people still at DEC pointed out that their initials were still there in the edit history and that they'd been had. Cutler was quoted in some article as saying that DEC could have had it but now they'll have to pay to get it. Bill Gates was reportedly pretty upset when he saw that article. (There are also stories about Windows/NT device drivers; if you want drivers for hardware you're selling to be included on the NT distribution, you have to sign over *all* rights to the driver code to Microsoft. I don't know if any hardware manufacturers consider their drivers to contain code which gives them a competitive advantage over other hardware manufacturers; if there are, they have a tough choice.) But IMHO, without Microsoft behind it, the operating system would not have gotten too far beyond the VMS market anyway. And it gave DEC leverage to get Microsoft to support Alpha and outsource some support work to DEC. The system services (the layer under the Windows API) are a whole lot like VMS. That makes the WNT ones a lot easier to use for those who used the VMS ones. When the C++ standards committee started up, Windows/NT wasn't announced yet. Microsoft's rep was insistent that exceptions be resumable, as they are in VMS. I had fun (seriously, for some reason I enjoyed it) taking the position that VMS did it that way but C++ shouldn't. (I had tried to use VMS exceptions in a VLSI CAD application and it was a major pain. I tried prototyping the same thing in C++ and it looked like a pain on paper. And it turned out that they only important places they were used in VMS were printing messages with context information [and a subroutine could walk up the stack to do that] and returning to the debugger [and a subroutine could do that, although there might be some protection ring stuff to finagle too]. Plus, POSIX Threads - descended from DECthreads - had chosen the non-resumable model, and so my orders were to try to get C++ to follow suit. The interested can see Bjarne Stroustrup's "acorn book" for an account of the others who opposed resumable exceptions on the grounds of more extensive usage in real projects (incl. TI, Xerox). Cutler wasn't the only key person behind VMS; the other was Dick Hustvedt, who was evenrtually injured in a traffic accident pulling out from DEC's driveway onto Spit Brook Road and ended up on permanent disability with short-term memory loss. A friend in the VMS group said that Hustvedt, not Cutler, was responsible for much more of the tricky, nifty stuff in VMS. But the survivors get to write the history. "There Ain't No Such Thing As Justice." -- Larry Niven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/fc6144d9/attachment.html From bill at chipware.com Tue Nov 2 14:43:22 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01bf2572$e76d4260$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Ah, ever hear of phantom... part of the MDS-A and VDM IO hack was to set > them up to output Phantom, in both cases it was just a jumper required. > The disable was simpler, MDS-A has a rarely used sector interupt enable > latch and the VDM used a bunch of bits for windowshading, something I > considered useless and removed from the board (a few socket level jumpers) > and I had the bit I needed for enable. If they were enabled phantom was > generated, if they were not ram was there. I'm getting to this point with my IMSAI restoration. The ROM on the Cromemco 4FDC can be disabled via an I/O write... the SDS Expandoram will enable/disable based on phantom (line 67). Unfortunatly, this seems to control the whole board. How was phantom used historically? Are there common boards which generate phantom as factory built? I'm now using a Cromemco ZPU which seems to work fine, but I have no docs for it. Does it have a "phantom latch"? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 14:51:59 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <001501bf2569$72d63d20$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That was my point, exactly. One shouldn't have to hack a new machine in > order to make it what one wants. That's doubly true when you can buy what > you want for less and not have to hack it. Well since the bus was not very standard, and the industry evolving... The key was what was better, and at the time I did my thing better was a limited choice. A year maybe two that choice was far greater but some of the fundimental design issues I was really taking aim at were not being solved except by a limted few. IE: spinning in PIO to do disk IO to me was plain dumb. CPU cycles were in my eyes being wasted. I really didn't care if it was memory mapped or IO mapped realative to that waste of CPU as a resource. In 1977 I wanted reliability NS* had it. In 1979 I wanted storage space and more speed and I started working on it. The DMA (of smart) boards I wanted however were still wanting or way out of line for quite a while. Allison From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Nov 2 15:06:12 1999 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Quote nitpick [WAS: Re: VMS architects] Message-ID: <004201bf2576$1847f1c0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> -----Original Message----- From: Marc Hustvedt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: Re: VMS architects < much snipped > > Cutler wasn't the only key person behind VMS; the other was Dick Hustvedt, > who was evenrtually injured in a traffic accident pulling out from DEC's > driveway onto Spit Brook Road and ended up on permanent disability with > short-term memory loss. A friend in the VMS group said that Hustvedt, not > Cutler, was responsible for much more of the tricky, nifty stuff in VMS. > But the survivors get to write the history. > "There Ain't No Such Thing As Justice." -- Larry Niven I think you're confusing : TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert Heinlein? with TANJ - There Ain't No Justice - Larry Niven, "The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton" Mark. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/f32c8a69/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 15:09:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) In-Reply-To: <000a01bf2572$e76d4260$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: Yes, Phantom/ was generated by a lot of cards. The mech for it was if that card was enabled (in an IO latch) and it's address came up it would assert (active low) phantom/ and kick everyone off the bus for that cycle and if the board didn't select it was not an issue. So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is deselected for that address. Allison On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I'm getting to this point with my IMSAI restoration. The > ROM on the Cromemco 4FDC can be disabled via an I/O > write... the SDS Expandoram will enable/disable based on > phantom (line 67). Unfortunatly, this seems to control the > whole board. How was phantom used historically? Are there It would but only if the board like the 4FDC asserted phantom/ when the rom is active. The fact that the board (expando) is board level selected is unimportant as Phantom/ is a DESELECT that is generated by some other card using the same space. It is possible (and was done) to use phantom/ for memory banking such that if a bord generated phantom/ it didn't look it at (or it get circular). I used that trick with 4 16k static cards all jumperd for 0000-->3fffh range. Only one would be active based on a selct register and they would kick off the main 64k ram card when their addresses were active. from a software perspective that gave my 5 16k banks all starting at 0000 and 48k of main ram that was allways the same(common). It was my first banked system and allowed background tasks running in each of the 16k banks (also caches, extended bios and extras). > common boards which generate phantom as factory built? I'm > now using a Cromemco ZPU which seems to work fine, but I have > no docs for it. Does it have a "phantom latch"? Most of the CCS, Compupro, Cromemco and others that were post 79ish did use and respect that signal. However early ones (all MITS and IMSAI) didn't use that signal at all. by 1981 it was defacto useage for roms and memory mapped Video ram, FDC or other. Allison From bill at chipware.com Tue Nov 2 15:51:47 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01bf257c$75caf170$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks > enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is > deselected for that address. Ah... I see... Now, the 4FDC does not have any connection to pin 67, so it is not using phantom. But it should be easy to implement... Can I just take the /CS (-NOT- chip select) pin from the 2708 and wire it to 67? Maybe I need to -NOT- it first? Thanks From bill at chipware.com Tue Nov 2 16:10:26 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) In-Reply-To: <000e01bf257c$75caf170$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <001001bf257f$10ac39e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks > > enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is > > deselected for that address. > > Ah... I see... Now, the 4FDC does not have any connection to > pin 67, so it is not using phantom. But it should be easy to > implement... Can I just take the /CS (-NOT- chip select) pin > from the 2708 and wire it to 67? Maybe I need to -NOT- it first? Exercising a little more brain power, I see I'll need to put a diode in there to keep someone elses phantom from activating this PROM. From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 2 16:16:59 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991028112141.00a640d0@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> from "Ken Marshall" at Oct 28, 99 11:24:49 am Message-ID: <199911022217.RAA20606@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/6706c6f8/attachment.ksh From sring at uslink.net Tue Nov 2 16:48:06 1999 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Classified Vintage Message-ID: <00a501bf2584$7278e6a0$5b57ddcc@uslink.net> sRING Does anyone know some really good classified ad sites for vintage computers? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/3bc938e6/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 17:00:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <002d01bf2586$2b908480$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I have never seen a Z-80A system that needed DMA for disk I/O. The required loop is simple enough to synchronize using the nWAIT line. The CCS and SDS FDC's both did PIO, and since the OS didn't have anything better to do during disk I/O, the wasted CPU cycles, if there were any, were going to be wasted anyway. In any case, there were a few video boards, notably the one from SDS, which didn't chew up a bunch of memory space. There were some which only used a few locations of memory as opposed to a large (2K) refresh buffer in the already small memory map. It's just that N* (and VECTOR) were not among them. What's better is not so easy to establish anyway, since what's better to one person may not be at all acceptable to another. The N* Horizon was a pretty popular product. I didn't like it because of the reasons I've already stated. I would not, however, pretend that the CCS or SDS stuff I liked to use was enough "better" that anyone would be making a mistake to use it. What persuaded me, however, was that the price of the CCS or SDS stuff was lower overall. What's more, I liked the MSC9391 HDC, which was too tall to fit in most boxes the size of the N* Horizon, including, by the way, the Altair and IMSAI. Those Integrand boxes with drive power and lodging built into the box that powered and housed the backplane were pretty decent, though, and they'd hold the double-high card from MSC. There was even enough room for an extra Power-One PSU (+12, +5) for the HDD so it worked out for my needs. That was another factor which drove me in a direction away from the prepackaged systems. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> That was my point, exactly. One shouldn't have to hack a new machine in >> order to make it what one wants. That's doubly true when you can buy what >> you want for less and not have to hack it. > > >Well since the bus was not very standard, and the industry evolving... > >The key was what was better, and at the time I did my thing better was a >limited choice. A year maybe two that choice was far greater but some of >the fundimental design issues I was really taking aim at were not being >solved except by a limted few. IE: spinning in PIO to do disk IO to me >was plain dumb. CPU cycles were in my eyes being wasted. I really didn't >care if it was memory mapped or IO mapped realative to that waste of CPU >as a resource. In 1977 I wanted reliability NS* had it. In 1979 I wanted >storage space and more speed and I started working on it. The DMA (of >smart) boards I wanted however were still wanting or way out of line for >quite a while. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 17:08:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <003401bf2587$3b9e3560$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Phantom was a common signal, but it really didn't take long before many vendors were simply copying the EPROM into memory, with a flipflop that enable the EPROM simply toggling off when the most significant location in the EPROM was accessed. That way it didn't matter much whether you had PHANTOM implemented or not. The EPROM was generally not enabled for a WRITE to memory, regardless of where it was writing, so copying the EPROM into RAM was pretty straightforward. The only thing PHANTOM had to do was disable the RAM board's output buffers, and it was common enough that it generated a wait-state or two as well, since the EPROMS were pretty slow. Nowadays, it's really tempting to use an EPROM or Battery-Backed SRAM to hold the entire CP/M CCP, BDOS, and BIOS, and let the warm boot reload the CCP from there. That would certainly make the control-c quicker. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >> > My solution was far more reasonable. Map it at 4000h and set a bit >> > to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still >> > faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that >> > way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it >> > was pretty trivial. >> >> And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled? > >Ah, ever hear of phantom... part of the MDS-A and VDM IO hack was to set >them up to output Phantom, in both cases it was just a jumper required. >The disable was simpler, MDS-A has a rarely used sector interupt enable >latch and the VDM used a bunch of bits for windowshading, something I >considered useless and removed from the board (a few socket level jumpers) >and I had the bit I needed for enable. If they were enabled phantom was >generated, if they were not ram was there. > >Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 2 17:12:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) Message-ID: <003b01bf2587$c6e25e80$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> It might work better if you use an unused gate or some such. Phantom often has numerous loads on it, so you could consider a pair of OC gates if they're available. Otherwise, a SCHOTTKY diode should suffice, since its forward voltage isn't enough to confuse any other device into missing the LOW on the PHANTOM line. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:06 PM Subject: RE: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) >> > So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks >> > enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is >> > deselected for that address. >> >> Ah... I see... Now, the 4FDC does not have any connection to >> pin 67, so it is not using phantom. But it should be easy to >> implement... Can I just take the /CS (-NOT- chip select) pin >> from the 2708 and wire it to 67? Maybe I need to -NOT- it first? > >Exercising a little more brain power, I see I'll need to put a >diode in there to keep someone elses phantom from activating this >PROM. From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Nov 2 12:28:08 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Schottky diode Question. In-Reply-To: <003b01bf2587$c6e25e80$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <199911022328.SAA04193@admin.cgocable.net> > It might work better if you use an unused gate or some such. Phantom often > has numerous loads on it, so you could consider a pair of OC gates if > they're available. Otherwise, a SCHOTTKY diode should suffice, since its > forward voltage isn't enough to confuse any other device into missing the > LOW on the PHANTOM line. I have measured resistance both ways, it becomes less of a diode as I go higher in resistance scale on my DMM, around 20K and up I read like a piece of 100 ohm resistor both ways but reads fine on diode mode. BTW: these are 1N5822. I'm working on a bondwell 486NC2 notebook seems to have power problem. Even with batteries unplugged, charge LED lights up same time as power lights up when I plug power brick in. Sometimes I can get hint of action and just once got computer to boot up for few seconds then dies. What gives? Wizard From jallain at databaseamerica.com Tue Nov 2 18:09:30 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <000001bf258f$e5806050$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 18:28:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon) Message-ID: <199911030028.TAA08223@world.std.com> <> So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks <> enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is <> deselected for that address. < > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [SMTP:ethan_dicks@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:00 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline) > > > > --- Eric Smith wrote: > > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O... > > > > You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support > > for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info > > (such as family and part codes) from their web site. > > Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that > I've just bought an old Data i/o series 22 programmer but it lacks a manual. Data i/o have indeed removed all tech support for older models from their website. Does anyone know an alternative site still offering manuals? -- Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada voice (613) 763-2568 fax (613) 763-9344 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/0baeca37/attachment.html From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 2 19:07:11 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <000801bf2560$12936180$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: Define late entry. The N* Product Catalog I have in front of me is dated January, 1978 and it says: "North Star Computers ... was incorporated in June, 1976. ...North Star now offers a complete S-100 bus computer." I'd have to dig out more definitive references, but it seems likely that the Horizon was first offered in 1977. The price at the time was $1599 (kit) or $1899 (assembled) for the Horizon 12-slot motherboard with built in serial port (additional serial or parallel port was $39), RTC, chassis and cover, 15A @ 8v, 6A @+/- 16v power supply, with 4 MHz Z-80, 16k RAM, disk controller, and one Shugart minifloppy. (A second Shugart was $400!) The CPU board listed for $199, and the 16K RAM for $399 - parity option was $39 (I remember reading warnings about using dynamic RAM w/o parity 'cause stray cosmic rays were likely to corrupt your memory at admittedly infrequent times!) Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:29 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon The N* Horizon was a late entry in the S-100 market, and, though it was priced competitively with CROMEMCO and VECTOR GRAPHICS systems, it didn't come in at a lower price than component systems using boards purchased individually based on comparison-shopping for the best price/function tradeoff. From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 2 19:23:43 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <199911022217.RAA20606@armigeron.com> References: <4.1.19991028112141.00a640d0@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> <199911022217.RAA20606@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19991102192343.A475@mrbill.net> On Tue, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:16:59PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Ken Marshall once stated: > > At 01:42 AM 10/28/1999 -0400, you wrote: > > >So my question is, where can I pick up two HP-HIL keyboard/mice for cheap? > > >Othersise, two very nice machines are just sitting here, doing nothing but > > >holding down the carpet. > > Sean: > > I have several HP-HIL keyboards and mice from 9000 series systems. You can > > have two of each for the price of shipping. Just let me know where to send them > The only concern I have is if they'll work in the HP Apollo 400 Series of > computers. If they do, I'll take two. > Sorry for taking so long in replying, busy weekend. > -spc (If they do, I'll write back with the address to send them to ... ) BTW, Goodwill Computerworks here in Austin has a couple of HP/Apollo 400 series machines (with vertical stands) in their "server" section - one looks kinda beat up, the other just kinda dinged.. I"ll go by and get specs (and prices, I think they're down to $25) tomorrow if anyone's interested. On that angle, Do any of the HP PA-RISC 9000-series machines qualify as "classic" computers yet, and if so, anybody have something for sale that will run HP-UX 10.20? Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 2 19:46:22 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: A sad day for DPT... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991101220053.0097a100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19991101094531.009177c0@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991102204622.009859c0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Bruce Lane may have mentioned these words: >some of their RAID products in the AAA series. Yea, if no-one's willing (or able) to write Linux drivers for it, you know it sucks... (Linux can't support the AAA-1130 RaidPort card... :-( ) > I just installed an Initio card in my system. Worked flawlessly, >full-speed, no glitches, no headaches. Far cry from having to install a >separate ISA-based SCSI adapter for my CD-ROM because the 2940 didn't like >me using both internal connectors and the external at the same time. Erm... did you install a dual-channel SCSI card? I can tell you that the Tekram & Diamond Fireport 40 cards (NCR mumble800 chipset) don't like that, either... Despite the fact it's got 3 plugs, it's only 1 bus, and it doesn't like the bus split into a Y... I took a different route; cheaper than the secondary card idea, maybe more expensive than what you did (dunno what your card cost)... For $17USD (or so) from Buycomp.com I purchased a Belkin HD 68-pin <-> 50-pin SCSI adapter, so I could plug in my Plextor SCSI3-Narrow 40x cdrom into my SCSI3-Wide cable... works great, especially if you're hooking up legacy hardware to a newer card (like my 10-year-old MaxOptix Tahiti-1 gig MO Drive (It's in our webserver)... Just to keep this on track ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mbg at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 20:07:32 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: VMS architects Message-ID: <199911030207.VAA13054@world.std.com> >But the survivors get to write the history. "There Ain't No Such Thing = >As Justice." -- Larry Niven Sorry... the Nivenisms are: TANJ - "There Ain't No Justice" TANSTAAFL - "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 2 20:33:30 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Bob Stek wrote: > Define late entry. The N* Product Catalog I have in front of me is dated > January, 1978 and it says: > > "North Star Computers ... was incorporated in June, 1976. ...North Star now > offers a complete S-100 bus computer." The MDS-A was available about some 6months earlier. I bought mine MDS-A in very early 77. The CPU a few weeks later and the box in mid spring 78. They were a mid player in the S100 market with MITS, IMSAI and POLY88 being the early players. To put some perspective around it. Around the time TRS80s with disk were becomming common with TRSdos, the NS* ran NS*dos, CPM and UCSD Pascal P-system. The Apple][ was the other one that ran that pascal! I paid $799 for the box and I already had the disk system and CPU. > (I remember reading warnings about using dynamic RAM w/o parity 'cause stray > cosmic rays were likely to corrupt your memory at admittedly infrequent > times!) That noise was on the streets a year later. I was working for NEC then (upd416 16k dynamic). Allison From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Nov 2 21:11:24 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Help: Identify DEC/Dilog Modules Message-ID: <199911030311.TAA08304@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Groups: I have some DEC modules that aren't in the latest Field Guide (thanks to Tim Shoppa for bringing this up to date). The identifiers are: M7684 M7773 M7774 M7776 M7786 M7787 I also have two questions: 1. I have a M7133 Unibus 11/24 CPU. As it's a single card CPU, does it still need a custom backplane, or is this a leter model CPU that can fit in a standard SU or something like that? 2. I have two Dilog controllers, the DQ236 and the DQ256. The Q for Dilog generally indicates Q bus. These have 1 x 60 pin header and 4 x 26 pin headers on them. Disk controllers? What type of drives? Any info appreciated, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Nov 2 18:30:29 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono! References: <3.0.3.32.19991101171039.0685036c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <010401bf25ab$18732d60$01c8a8c0@office1> Jim: It was a stroke of luck. A guy in Westchester County, NY contacted me before he went with it to eOverPay. It's a nifty item. It has a custom General Instrument LSI and a battery backup. The commands are typical Hayes. They must be in all UPPER CASE though. I spent over an hour last night troubleshooting the serial connection, only to realize that everything in the manual was upper cased, so I tried it. It works. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator ----- Original Message ----- From: James Willing To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Today's toy -- Hayes Chrono! > At 07:03 PM 11/01/1999 -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >Hello, all: > > > > I just got my hands on a Hayes Chronograph. No box, but complete with > >wall wart, and manuals. > > Aw, you bum! I've been looking for one of those! B^} (congrats) > > -jim > > --- > jimw@computergarage.org > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 3 00:18:09 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <199911022217.RAA20606@armigeron.com> References: <4.1.19991028112141.00a640d0@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991103001809.3bc75a4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:16 PM 11/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Ken Marshall once stated: >> >> At 01:42 AM 10/28/1999 -0400, you wrote: >> > >> > >> >So my question is, where can I pick up two HP-HIL keyboard/mice for cheap? >> >Othersise, two very nice machines are just sitting here, doing nothing but >> >holding down the carpet. >> > >> Sean: >> >> I have several HP-HIL keyboards and mice from 9000 series systems. You can >> have two of each for the price of shipping. Just let me know where to send them > > The only concern I have is if they'll work in the HP Apollo 400 Series of >computers. If the 400s use HP-HIL they'll work. That's the whole point of HP-HIL. Joe From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 2 22:52:22 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Help: Identify DEC/Dilog Modules In-Reply-To: <199911030311.TAA08304@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991102205222.009645c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 19:11 02-11-1999 -0800, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >2. I have two Dilog controllers, the DQ236 and the DQ256. The Q for Dilog >generally indicates Q bus. These have 1 x 60 pin header and 4 x 26 pin >headers on them. Disk controllers? What type of drives? Yes, disk controllers. With that kind of connector spread, both are for SMD drives. The 256 sounds like a later model that may actually be able to handle E-SMD (if the 236 can't already). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 2 22:52:30 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991103001809.3bc75a4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Nov 3, 99 00:18:09 am Message-ID: <199911030452.XAA27814@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991102/69b1a7d2/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Nov 2 23:00:21 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Help with (Obsolete computers--a paper) Message-ID: <199911030500.XAA28336@trailingedge.com> I've seen newspaper articles and such on this topic online but don't know if they're still out there or even where they were. Can any of you here help him out with some links or such? Respond directy to him at the address in the message. Thanks. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: GEngel039@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 22:06:59 EST Subject: Re: Obsolete computers--a paper To: dlw@trailingedge.com Hi, thanks for responding! I am taking an introductory computer class, and need to do a two page paper and a 5 minute speech. We get to choose the subject. Basically, I am looking for brief information, such as environmental hazzards posed by discarded computers, perhaps an estimate of the number of computers being disposed of daily (monthly, yearly-basically I need one estimate to work with), what can be done with these "obsolete" computers to keep them from ending up in landfills (I noticed you were working with this), etc. I'm not looking for you to give me the information, I don't mind doing the research myself, as I find this an interesting topic. I just need maybe a few websites that may be able to help me. I appreciate any help you may be able to give me in steering me in the right direction. Thank you! Damon -----------End of Message------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From red at bears.org Tue Nov 2 23:01:08 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991103001809.3bc75a4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Joe wrote: > > The only concern I have is if they'll work in the HP Apollo 400 > > Series of computers. > > If the 400s use HP-HIL they'll work. That's the whole point of HP-HIL. With a couple of caveats, yes. On the 400 series, the system has a PROM setting which must be set using the _current_ keyboard, which tells the system what sort of keyboard to use. Heaven help you if you have the wrong flavour of keyboard on hand. The HIL keyboard is only supported under HP/UX, and is required to run it. The DOMAIN keyboard is only supported under DOMAIN/OS, and is required to run it. Otherwise, yeah. If it's got HIL it'll work. ok r. From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 2 23:06:01 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <19991102192343.A475@mrbill.net> References: <199911022217.RAA20606@armigeron.com> <4.1.19991028112141.00a640d0@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991103000601.00e73388@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> If you are interested in hppa, this is a must; grab the large 980723\*.pdf files; they are the hardware compatibility guides, but they also have os compatibility somewhere. Note: large pdf files. http://puffin.external.hp.com/docs/ At 07:23 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote: > >On that angle, Do any of the HP PA-RISC 9000-series machines qualify as >"classic" computers yet, and if so, anybody have something for sale >that will run HP-UX 10.20? > >Bill > >-- >Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net > mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >"Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, > because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." > -- Unknown > From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 2 23:10:55 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Nov 3, 99 00:01:08 am Message-ID: <199911030510.AAA28226@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1091 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991103/e2a3cd09/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Nov 2 23:41:17 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: VMS architects In-Reply-To: <199911030207.VAA13054@world.std.com> from Megan at "Nov 2, 1999 9: 7:32 pm" Message-ID: <199911030541.AAA05458@pechter.dyndns.org> > Sorry... the Nivenisms are: > > TANSTAAFL - "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer Sorry, That one's Robert A. Heinlein. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Nov 2 23:48:40 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Hardware & Software - Sealed Bid Auction Message-ID: <3825c6c2.534410341@insight> I recently moved, and the living room of the old house is currently filled to the walls with stuff I regrettably can't bring along (go figure - 3 times the square footage plus a barn and a garage I didn't have before), so I'm hoping you guys will help me find new homes for it. To see pictures and descriptions, go to the following URL. It will take a few minutes because there are a number of items and the pictures are not small. http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computer-sale.htm This will be conducted as a sealed-bid auction. High bidder takes the item. Bid by e-mailing your bid (minimum of $10 on each item, please) to bill_r@inetnebr.com (that's bill(underscore)r). Please include the item number, description, your bid amount, and your e-mail and snail-mail address and telephone number in each bid. Bids will be accepted through November 30th, 1999, although some items may close early if I receive what I feel is a reasonable offer and/or have not seen much interest in an item. In addition to the amount stated in the bid, the high bidder also agrees to pay actual packing and shipping costs, and insurance if desired, or to arrange to pick the item(s) up in Lincoln, Nebraska. Seller reserves the right to withdraw items from or add items to the auction at any time. Payment by cashier's check or money order will result in faster shipment. Payment by personal check will delay shipment until the check clears. All items are AS-IS, and no guarantee of any kind is made with regard to operability, suitability for application, safety, or completeness. Descriptions are as honest and accurate as possible; if you have specific questions about an item and are serious about placing a bid, please e-mail me at the above address and I'll try to provide additional information. This is all stuff I've collected over the years and no longer have room to keep - I'd rather not get rid of it, but at least I'd like to see it go to someone who will enjoy it and appreciate it. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 00:24:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Schottky diode Question. Message-ID: <000b01bf25c4$0986a520$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well . . . MY DMM doesn't read the DIODE the same in both directions. If it reads the same when the DMM is in DIODE TEST mode (the only one which is really meaningful) it should read the voltage across the diode. If it's the same in both directions, AND NO OTHER CONNECTED Devices are present, it's not a diode. In your case that probably means that it's broken. If you're measuring it in situ, the other components in the circuit are probably playing a role. I don't have the data book on that diode here, so I'm guessing it's a rectifier, and therefore has a forward voltage on the order 0.275 volts. (SCHOTTKY diodes are preferable for rectifiers in portable devices because they (1) require less voltage overhead, and (2) don't generate as much heat. Be sure you know what you're measuring! I've never had a battery on my notebooks go bad, so I don't know how they behave when they do that, but I've seen some sensor circuits used in turning the system on which don't work when the battery is in "deep discharge" as it might be if it was left on and became "empty" enough that the charge circuit sees it as a short and defends itself by shutting down. Try an external charger for the battery. If that doesn't charge the battery, then charge up a 7500 microfarad capacitor to about 75 volts and discharge it through the battery, observing correct polarity. That may blow out any cilia which may be causing a cell to behave as though it's collapsed. good luck! Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:28 PM Subject: Schottky diode Question. > It might work better if you use an unused gate or some such. Phantom often > has numerous loads on it, so you could consider a pair of OC gates if > they're available. Otherwise, a SCHOTTKY diode should suffice, since its > forward voltage isn't enough to confuse any other device into missing the > LOW on the PHANTOM line. I have measured resistance both ways, it becomes less of a diode as I go higher in resistance scale on my DMM, around 20K and up I read like a piece of 100 ohm resistor both ways but reads fine on diode mode. BTW: these are 1N5822. I'm working on a bondwell 486NC2 notebook seems to have power problem. Even with batteries unplugged, charge LED lights up same time as power lights up when I plug power brick in. Sometimes I can get hint of action and just once got computer to boot up for few seconds then dies. What gives? Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 00:29:40 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <001201bf25c4$cfc0ccc0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I did some similar fooling around by populating an SRAM card with battery-backed rams. It wasn't worth it at the time, though. I even have a 32K card with battery backup on board. I also built a RAMDISK with a battery backup so I could dump an entire SA1004 to it in one stroke and keep it alive with a couple of motorcycle-battery sized gel cells and a major DC-DC converter. I built one for a business partner and hooked up solar cells and one of those adjustable DC-DC converters (one of the old, Old, OLD Boschert adjustable open-frame types) to bring the 60 Vdc or so down to 14Volts and another to build the 5 Volts from that. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > >Nowadays! I did this back in early 81 using 2732s. I put a monitor, bios, >ZCPR2 and BDOS in that. The CCP and BDOS only eats 5.5k. It was set up >rather odd as the system runs from a small 2716 at cold boot with a monitor >and then by user command loads the 8k image into ram from IO addressed >"romdisk". The CTRL-C was very fast as it could do INIR copies from the >rom. A later version still running is 256k of eprom (27512s) had all of >cpm, loader, ASM, VEDIT, SID (and more). This version the boot EEprom >is at 0000 and is truncated bdos, bios and a loader. This was done so that >I could have it load CPM.SYS image for testing from the selected drive >including the ROMDISK. This is raw speed. > >Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 00:45:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <002501bf25c8$58abbc40$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> That's about the price range I remember too. OTOH, I used to get the Integrand box and, separately of course, the CCS CPU, CCS 64K DRAM board, and CCS FDC for about $980. Two of the Misubishi MB2894 (?) DSDD 8" drives cost $780, though, and the system still needed a dumb terminal. For that I normally used a Televideo 920, or, later, 910. Those also cost about $750 back then. It wasn't cheap, no matter how you turned it. With that combination, I was able to put out a computer system which had a decent display, decent performance, and generally acceptable storage for around $3k with a few bucks in my pocket if I shopped carefully. It was easier, of course, if the client already had some stuff, like a printer and a terminal. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stek To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 7:19 PM Subject: RE: Northstar Horizon >Define late entry. The N* Product Catalog I have in front of me is dated >January, 1978 and it says: > >"North Star Computers ... was incorporated in June, 1976. ...North Star now >offers a complete S-100 bus computer." > >I'd have to dig out more definitive references, but it seems likely that the >Horizon was first offered in 1977. The price at the time was $1599 (kit) or >$1899 (assembled) for the Horizon 12-slot motherboard with built in serial >port (additional serial or parallel port was $39), RTC, chassis and cover, >15A @ 8v, 6A @+/- 16v power supply, with 4 MHz Z-80, 16k RAM, disk >controller, and one Shugart minifloppy. (A second Shugart was $400!) The >CPU board listed for $199, and the 16K RAM for $399 - parity option was $39 >(I remember reading warnings about using dynamic RAM w/o parity 'cause stray >cosmic rays were likely to corrupt your memory at admittedly infrequent >times!) > >Bob Stek >bobstek@ix.netcom.com >Saver of Lost SOLs > >-----Original Message----- >From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:29 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > > >The N* Horizon was a late entry in the S-100 market, and, though it was >priced competitively with CROMEMCO and VECTOR GRAPHICS systems, it didn't >come in at a lower price than component systems using boards purchased >individually based on comparison-shopping for the best price/function >tradeoff. > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Nov 3 00:59:13 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies In-Reply-To: <1999112610936334@ix.netcom.com> from "rhudson@ix.netcom.com" at Nov 2, 99 09:08:03 am Message-ID: <199911030659.WAA17697@saul6.u.washington.edu> > I just managed to get control of the machine while checking out a "Games" > disk and I now have DOS 3.3 > > How can I transfer the Binary files (non basic) to my newly formatted disk. > All it has is a HELLO basic program. (like INTBASIC and FPBASIC and D800 > (?)) Wow, no one's answered this one yet? It's prettty simple compared to the challenge of using the S-100 Phantom signal to power an EPROM-burning card that runs a modified VT-100 terminal hooked up to a Northstar! (just kidding -- those are some of the topics we've had lately, all jumbled together). Do you actually have INTBASIC and FPBASIC files on a disk? If so, then you probably have the DOS 3.3 System Master disk, which comes with a handy file-copying program called FID. Since I'm an optimist, I'll assume this is true for now. You would do roughly: BRUN FID Choose "copy files" It will ask you for the source drive and the destination drive. If you only have one drive, then they are both slot 6, drive 1; otherwise, the second drive is drive 2 (obviously). I think that with one drive, FID asks you at this point to put in the source disk (and it will later ask you to switch disks: destination, source, destination, etc.) I assume the same thing happens with two drives. If you put in the wrong disk, it's not a big deal since you can just start again from the menu screen. It will also ask you what files you want to copy. You can enter one file name. Or you can enter = for all files, or H= for all files starting with H, etc. If you use = I believe FID will ask you if you want prompts; hit Y and you will be able to approve (with Y) or reject (with N) each file in turn. That may be the best way if there are many files. There is also a COPYA program which copies entire disks -- that may come in handy as well. If you don't have either of those, it becomes more interesting. I'll have to look up the details and get back to you. -- Derek From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Nov 3 01:19:33 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <19991102192343.A475@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Bill Bradford wrote: [...] > On that angle, Do any of the HP PA-RISC 9000-series machines qualify as > "classic" computers yet, and if so, anybody have something for sale > that will run HP-UX 10.20? > > Bill Hmm. Not quite classic yet, but because they hold sentimental value (we used HP 9000 series 700 systems at the Cornell Program of Computer Graphics) we'll let it slip this time. I just picked up an HP Apollo 9000 model 715/50 on eBay for $60. I figured it was an OK price to pay for such a machine, since I really wanted to play around with one (older workstations seem to have become my "thing" recently). You can find them on eBay all the time, many many of them. Prices range from $50 to $300 depending on the model and the conditions of other bidders. I seem to have gotten lucky on mine. I haven't played with HP/UX since college (version 9.something, in 1994...) so I'm sure it'll be fun to re-aquaint myself. Oh, and almost any series 700 will run 10.20, but that seems to be the last version that will run on most of them. -Seth -- "This is not something made up... this is taken from | Seth J. Morabito a secret 12th century alchemy manuscript. this is | sethm@loomcom.com the real thing!!!" -- An online auction (really!) | Perth ==> * From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Nov 3 01:53:08 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Nx 586 Message-ID: <000501bf25d0$7886f900$e439c018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Someone here is selling Nexgen 586 CPU/Board sets. I was thinking of investing in one because I've never seen one before. Were there many made? Not classic I know, but maybe more obsolete than some 10 year old computers perhaps? Hans From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Nov 2 21:00:19 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Nx 586 In-Reply-To: <000501bf25d0$7886f900$e439c018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <199911030800.DAA08354@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:53:08 +1100 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Olminkhof" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Nx 586 > X-To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Someone here is selling Nexgen 586 CPU/Board sets. I was thinking of > investing in one because I've never seen one before. Were there many made? > > Not classic I know, but maybe more obsolete than some 10 year old computers > perhaps? Nx586 is the direct lingeage to AMD K5 cpu series. So you got some piece of history there! AMD had to buy NextGen because their K5 was dragging it's boot too long. BTW, that set requires motherboard designed expressly for these Nx586 set. Wizard > > Hans From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 3 02:14:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Nx 586 In-Reply-To: <000501bf25d0$7886f900$e439c018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: >Someone here is selling Nexgen 586 CPU/Board sets. I was thinking of >investing in one because I've never seen one before. Were there many made? No idea, how many were made. Personally I wouldn't get one as an investment, on the other hand if you've got a use for it... >Not classic I know, but maybe more obsolete than some 10 year old computers >perhaps? > >Hans Now this comment I like!!! It sums up my feelings about the collectibility of x86 based systems designed to run Microsoftian OS's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 3 04:07:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Help: Identify DEC/Dilog Modules In-Reply-To: <199911030311.TAA08304@fraser.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:11:24 -0800 (PST)) References: <199911030311.TAA08304@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <19991103100702.17639.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I have some DEC modules that aren't in the latest Field Guide (thanks to > Tim Shoppa for bringing this up to date). They seem to be present in the 12-may-1999 revision. M7684: RK05 control sequencer M7773: RP04 asynchronous logic M7774: RP04 register logic M7776: RP04 error correction logic M7786: RP06/06 seek search cont, 4 M7787: RP05/06? interface control From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 3 05:31:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Nx 586 In-Reply-To: References: <000501bf25d0$7886f900$e439c018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <199911031031.LAA27511@mail2.siemens.de> > >Someone here is selling Nexgen 586 CPU/Board sets. I was thinking of > >investing in one because I've never seen one before. Were there many made? > No idea, how many were made. Personally I wouldn't get one as an > investment, on the other hand if you've got a use for it... Of course not an investment at any mean - they are way to obscure to gather value at any time (just compare it to the Altair vs. more rare systems case). > >Not classic I know, but maybe more obsolete than some 10 year old computers > >perhaps? > Now this comment I like!!! It sums up my feelings about the collectibility > of x86 based systems designed to run Microsoftian OS's. Well, the NextGen is (was) a quite remarkable step. And for PCs, I'm already starting to aquire some early Pentiums. Dual P60 server systems _are_ already vanishing. Anyway, what kind of Nx586 boards are offered ? Gruss H. From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Nov 3 04:59:29 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Help: Identify DEC/Dilog Modules Message-ID: <008401bf25ea$970e6060$d652e780@l166> >1. I have a M7133 Unibus 11/24 CPU. As it's a single card CPU, does it >still need a custom backplane, or is this a leter model CPU that can fit >in a standard SU or something like that? It needs a special backplane. M7133 in slot 1, M7134 (MMU) slot 2, Slot 3 to 6 are modified for 22 bit memory. Slot 7 starts the regular UNIBUS IIRC. I have a few if you want me to check the DD #. Dan From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 3 07:52:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <001201bf25c4$cfc0ccc0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: > I even have a 32K card with battery backup on board. I also built a RAMDISK > with a battery backup so I could dump an entire SA1004 to it in one stroke > and keep it alive with a couple of motorcycle-battery sized gel cells and a > major DC-DC converter. I built one for a business partner and hooked up > solar cells and one of those adjustable DC-DC converters (one of the old, > Old, OLD Boschert adjustable open-frame types) to bring the 60 Vdc or so > down to 14Volts and another to build the 5 Volts from that. At the time I did the RomDisk I also did a ramdisk (io port addressable) not unlike the Compupro Mdrive. the difference was I used Mixmos static ram and used 4 AA (500mah) nicads to keep it alive for up to 100hours. Total ram was 128k. A later design used 2kx8 EEPROM and Cmos static rams for 128k for each "drive". I also have two BPK72 bubble memories (128kb each). My current project is a dual semiconductor disk for S100 use 1mb or flashram and 8mb of Dram battery backed up. Both addressable Via port addresses (uses otir/inir to read write blocks). With current 1mb 30 pin simms and FPGAs it's not a dense board. I used 1mb 30 pin as I can get then for near nothing. Whats nice wth that config is I can preload it and then plug it into another system and read/write it easily. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 08:38:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <000c01bf2609$2b0d0d20$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well, I don't know what instructions were used to move the SA1004 contents to the BBRAMDISK, but it didn't take long to write in MBASIC and compile with BASCOM. It was pretty similar to the formatter, since that was written the same way. The odd thing was, since I wrote a lot of assembler back then, the ASM version of that program, or of the formater, for that matter, was not noticeably faster than the BASCOM version. Both were probably being held up by the drive. Nowadays, the 8MB ramdisk would be dirt simple, using one simm and one CPLD, and a small one at that. There was, by the way, an outfit nearby, which produced, among other things, a 10MB RAMDRIVE for the TI-PC. That product was interfaced via SCSI and was moveable between systems. It must have lived on a battery as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 6:53 AM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon >> I even have a 32K card with battery backup on board. I also built a RAMDISK >> with a battery backup so I could dump an entire SA1004 to it in one stroke >> and keep it alive with a couple of motorcycle-battery sized gel cells and a >> major DC-DC converter. I built one for a business partner and hooked up >> solar cells and one of those adjustable DC-DC converters (one of the old, >> Old, OLD Boschert adjustable open-frame types) to bring the 60 Vdc or so >> down to 14Volts and another to build the 5 Volts from that. > >At the time I did the RomDisk I also did a ramdisk (io port addressable) >not unlike the Compupro Mdrive. the difference was I used Mixmos static >ram and used 4 AA (500mah) nicads to keep it alive for up to 100hours. >Total ram was 128k. A later design used 2kx8 EEPROM and Cmos static rams >for 128k for each "drive". > >I also have two BPK72 bubble memories (128kb each). > >My current project is a dual semiconductor disk for S100 use 1mb or >flashram and 8mb of Dram battery backed up. Both addressable Via port >addresses (uses otir/inir to read write blocks). With current 1mb 30 pin >simms and FPGAs it's not a dense board. I used 1mb 30 pin as I can get >then for near nothing. Whats nice wth that config is I can preload it >and then plug it into another system and read/write it easily. > >Allison > From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 3 08:39:40 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <199911363155441@ix.netcom.com> On 11/02/99 22:59:13 you wrote: > >> I just managed to get control of the machine while checking out a "Games" >> disk and I now have DOS 3.3 >> >> How can I transfer the Binary files (non basic) to my newly formatted disk. >> All it has is a HELLO basic program. (like INTBASIC and FPBASIC and D800 >Do you actually have INTBASIC and FPBASIC files on a disk? If so, then you >probably have the DOS 3.3 System Master disk, which comes with a handy >file-copying program called FID. > >There is also a COPYA program which copies entire disks -- that may come in >handy as well. > >-- Derek > drats I don't have either of those...they weren't on the games disk. :^( (missing out on all the prommise of my powerful new Apple][+ ) From amichael at nortelnetworks.com Wed Nov 3 08:51:38 1999 From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8029C9A8D@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> Don't know about the 1021, but I've got an Alpha Micro 1042E. Got it from an automotive parts business that used it for inventory and order desk: it's got a raft of RS-232 ports on the back to timeshare an office full of terminals. The 1042E is an S-100 box (but BIG enough to hold its 8" Winchester) with a 68K cpu card and an unusual tape backup interface card (it uses a modified videocassette recorder). So I suspect it would be worth digging inside to see if the 1021 is likewise S-100. The operating system is AMOS which is somewhat like DEC's RT-11. I don't have any documentation. I can't figure out how to get code into it: it has no floppy drive. Maybe Alpha Micro distributed everything on videotape (charging extra for New Releases or Oscar winners?). > -----Original Message----- > From: McFadden, Mike [SMTP:mmcfadden@cmh.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:17 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Info about Alpha Micro 1021, HP terminal, 8" floppy > > Any info on these mature computer components? > > I was looking in a stack of pallet sized boxes at the local computer > surplus and I came across a Alpha Micro 1021 computer. It appears to be > about 2' by 2' by 1.5' with a series of DB25 connectors on the back. I > couldn't move the top box to gain access to the lower box. I couldn't see > much more than the exterior. > -- Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada voice (613) 763-2568 fax (613) 763-9344 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991103/334f6b53/attachment.html From jallain at databaseamerica.com Wed Nov 3 10:29:36 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Freebie alert: CDC 9766 SMD drive Message-ID: <000001bf2618$9f1fdf80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Dumpster-Dive alert from a Newbie. Two Control Data Corp 9766 Storage Module Drive units to go ** FREE ** to a good home in the tri state (New York, New Jersey, Conecticut this time) area. These are the Classic drives from the late 70's that everybody at the time is probably familliar with ( Open the top like a clotheswasher, lock in a removable 300MB platter array, push the start button & go ) I don't remember the DEC designator for this but I'm positive that Many companies re-marketed this as their own component to their MiniComputer offerings, they were everywhere, I used one in in 1982, but I don't need three now. These two were taken from a system deactivated just recently. One of the diskpacks was marked something like "Backup Nov-1997" so it's a pretty good guess that everything was working. They are sitting safe in an office right now, but Pls. act fast if you're interested. FYI JEA (John Allain) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 3 12:19:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Freebie alert: CDC 9766 SMD drive In-Reply-To: <000001bf2618$9f1fdf80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> (jallain@databaseamerica.com) References: <000001bf2618$9f1fdf80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <19991103181920.20490.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Two Control Data Corp 9766 Storage Module Drive units [...] > I don't remember the DEC designator for this but I'm The DEC RM05 was a heavily modified 9766. Packs are interchangeable, but the drive isn't. From mranalog at home.com Wed Nov 3 12:14:42 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Data I/O programmers (was Re: EPROM sideline) Message-ID: <38207B92.606CED42@home.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Eric Smith wrote: > > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O... > > > > You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support > > for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info > > (such as family and part codes) from their web site. > > Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that > I have check, but ISTR that it's a model 29. As I started reading this thread, I went up to the Data I/O file download area and realized in horror that those family and part codes text files were gone! (The "old" directory under ftp://ftp.data-io.com/dataio/device.lst is gone) Someone should host these files! I started searching my hard drive and some backup CDs for files with "22" in them. And I did find the family and part codes text file for the "Series 22/A", but I could swear that I also downloaded a zipped file of all of the old programmer support files from the Data I/O site. I just can't what it might have been named. Can anyone convince me that I'm not just imagining this? And Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com said: > I've just bought an old Data i/o series 22 programmer but it lacks a manual. > Data i/o have indeed removed all tech support for older models from their > website. Does anyone know an alternative site still offering manuals? I have a couple Series 22 programmers (and a optional RS-232 paper tape reader, built-in UV eraser,and 351A-064 socket adapter for those little PROMs like the 82S123 :). And I also have a manual, contact me at dcoward@pressstart.com. Or if you're already famillar with operating the Series 22, I could just scan the little "flip book" operator's manual. I have flip books for the 22B (What is the 22B?), Series 22, and the 29B. I don't have a regular manual for my 29B. One of these days I need to create a cheat sheet for operating the Series 22 because every time I need to use it, I spend half an hour in the manual (especially to set-up remote operation with a PC). --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 3 13:46:24 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: VMS architects Message-ID: <199911031946.OAA08398@world.std.com> >> Sorry... the Nivenisms are: >> >> TANSTAAFL - "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer > >Sorry, That one's Robert A. Heinlein. Yep, sorry about that... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 13:11:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Help: Identify DEC/Dilog Modules In-Reply-To: <199911030311.TAA08304@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Nov 2, 99 07:11:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1248 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991103/b396cc56/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 13:24:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Schottky diode Question. In-Reply-To: <000b01bf25c4$0986a520$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 2, 99 11:24:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991103/a6635508/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Nov 3 11:26:28 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: Schottky diode Question. In-Reply-To: References: <000b01bf25c4$0986a520$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 2, 99 11:24:08 pm Message-ID: <199911032227.RAA07473@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:24:37 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Schottky diode Question. Sheesh, that topic wandered off the diode discussion! Snip! The important thing I wanted to hear about is how schottky diodes reacts if good and what it's like when bad or sick on a DMM with different resistance scale settings used, diode test also seems says "good" but I know it's very low current also low voltage so that would usually not screen out sick diodes. That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. Yes, I pull diodes and transistors out for checks to be sure. Ingore the battery thing please. I'm more concerned getting the notebook going. Thanks. Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Nov 3 11:29:31 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. Message-ID: <199911032229.RAA09347@admin.cgocable.net> Sheesh, that topic wandered off the diode discussion! Snip! The important thing I wanted to hear about is how schottky diodes reacts if good and what it's like when bad or sick on a DMM with different resistance scale settings used, diode test also seems says "good" but I know it's very low current also low voltage so that would usually not screen out sick diodes. That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. Yes, I pull diodes and transistors out for checks to be sure. Ingore the battery thing please. I'm more concerned getting the notebook going. Thanks. Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 16:49:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:20 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. Message-ID: <000e01bf264d$cc2b72c0$0400c0a8@winbook> If you have a diode of any kind which behaves more as a resistor and less as a diode, i.e. it measures more or less the same in both directions, though differently on different settings on your DMM, I'd say it's broken. The reason for all the discussion about batteries is that a set of batteries for a typical notebook costs only a bit less than $200 for a cheap one, and it's useful to know whether the notebook works before buying a new battery pack. Most of them don't work with no battery at all, though some do. If there's something wrong with your diode and the diode is in the charging circuit, with behavior like you've described, it will discharge your battery and subsequently into deep discharge, which will permanently and irrevocably damage NiCd and NiMH batteries. A schottky diode is simply a diode. It has doping different from a typical silicon diode, hence has a lower forward voltage, hence dissipates less power than a silicon diode at the same current. If it has measurable resistance cathode to anode and anode to cathode which is about the same, it's no longer acting as a diode. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 3:30 PM Subject: schottky diode again.. Sheesh, that topic wandered off the diode discussion! Snip! The important thing I wanted to hear about is how schottky diodes reacts if good and what it's like when bad or sick on a DMM with different resistance scale settings used, diode test also seems says "good" but I know it's very low current also low voltage so that would usually not screen out sick diodes. That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. Yes, I pull diodes and transistors out for checks to be sure. Ingore the battery thing please. I'm more concerned getting the notebook going. Thanks. Wizard From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Nov 3 17:23:54 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Gridpads on epay Message-ID: <0.aa2e66ac.25521e0a@aol.com> I noticed a couple of Gridpads on epay that are closing in 6 hours. Current price is $31 and it hasn't changed in over 24 hrs. Item number 187950991 Paxton From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Nov 3 12:31:04 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: <000e01bf264d$cc2b72c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199911032330.SAA05804@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:49:33 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: schottky diode again.. > X-To: > A schottky diode is simply a diode. It has doping different from a typical > silicon diode, hence has a lower forward voltage, hence dissipates less > power than a silicon diode at the same current. If it has measurable > resistance cathode to anode and anode to cathode which is about the same, > it's no longer acting as a diode. > > Dick Hi Dick, Finally! Yeah, that schottky diodes, let say all of them showed this problem but seems good on diode mode test on DMM. That's the whole thing. I took out exact same kind from other different one was HD that has 1N5821, These from notebook has 1N5822 only differences is voltage ratings. All showed exact same behavior. In switchers, diodes shows exactly like good diodes even with resistance tests. I didn't know if I had enough experiences with schottky (hint hint!) diodes so I turned to here for help. These diodes in that notebook is primarily for DC-DC conversion from either power brick or from batteries. PS: excuse the second message, email barfed and thought send failed, had to resent it. Wizard From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Nov 3 17:33:22 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) Message-ID: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> So I'm trying to collect the stuff I won at a recent auction, the most unexpected deal was the PDP 11/34 for $10 with the DEC Cassette tape transport. Its dirty and grimy but it seems complete. I could satisfy my desire for a Unibus -11 for now (and at a cost I appreciate :-) Anyone have any info on the DEC Cassettes? TU-?? they are standard audio format cassettes and one of the cassetes that came with it claims to have PAL, EDIT, and LINK on it. This will be fun to explore. Then I bid on a rack of "junk" which was topped off by a Kennedy 9610 tape drive. I bid on it because the tape drive had what appearred to be a 50 pin cable going to a Q-bus card marked Emulex. In fact it was _two_ 50 pin cables and the Emulex card is labelled QT1310401-00-REV E. On the firmware the label reads QT1310201-02 REV K. What is it? A search of the web turned up zilch. I was hoping it was a SCSI controller but two connectors? (one is terminated with resistor packs) On board is the obligatory processor and some switches. Anyone know how to configure this? (If nothing else it gives me 9-track capability. Another "jewel" on the rack was a Dilog Q696-20 dual ESDI controller. I'm going to try swapping the RQllD for this one and see if I can get NetBSD to run stably. The MSCP implementation in the RQ has a bug that NetBSD tickles so it makes it hard to debug things. Then what clearly _was_ a SCSI controller was a board from Alphatronix. This thing was connected to a dual cartridge disk unit. It looks from the front like CD-ROM drives with CDs in carriers but until I choose to risk power to it I can't get the media out to inspect it. The box is called an "inspire"? Anyway, the model number is Q/9142 or Q1.50, _any_ help here would be greatly appreciated. Then the other interesting card was a national instruments 179055-01 which has an Intel 8291? on board (date code of either '84 or '91). Sort of a weird 40 pin connector that goes to what looks like the old GPIB connectors. Final question, how do you "de-rack" the 11/34? I can get it to rotate but I can't get it to let go and come out of the rack. I don't want to transport it in the rack so... Its like christmas, --Chuck From sms at antinode.org Wed Nov 3 17:20:17 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. Message-ID: <99110317201757@antinode.org> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > > If you have a diode of any kind which behaves more as a resistor and less as > a diode, i.e. it measures more or less the same in both directions, though > differently on different settings on your DMM, I'd say it's broken. I'd say you have a modern meter, and neither of you knows how to use it. The "diode" range on the meter is there because the other resistance ranges are not useful for testing diodes. Read the manual for the meter, or buy a curve tracer, or build a continuity tester from an old flashlight (two-cell preferred), or ... I'm curious. Have you tried the same family of (mostly misleading) tests on a known-good, plain-old silicon diode? > > From: jpero@cgocable.net > > ... > > says "good" but I know it's very low current also low voltage so that > > would usually not screen out sick diodes. The current and voltage for the resistance ranges are probably much lower, which is why the readings are so useless. (Repeat previous rant here.) > That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. This must be some new meaning of "sure". There are some subtle defects possible in a diode which will not be revealed by the "diode" test on a multimeter, but that's almost certainly the best test offered by the meter. > Wizard Apparently a misnomer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 17:35:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: <000e01bf264d$cc2b72c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 3, 99 03:49:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991103/d3d2e10a/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Wed Nov 3 18:16:21 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) References: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <021f01bf2659$e8b4a180$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 4:33 PM Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) > Then I bid on a rack of "junk" which was topped off by a Kennedy 9610 tape > drive. I bid on it because the tape drive had what appearred to be a 50 pin > cable going to a Q-bus card marked Emulex. In fact it was _two_ 50 pin > cables and the Emulex card is labelled QT1310401-00-REV E. On the firmware > the label reads QT1310201-02 REV K. What is it? A search of the web turned > up zilch. I was hoping it was a SCSI controller but two connectors? (one is > terminated with resistor packs) On board is the obligatory processor and > some switches. It's a pertec/TMSCP controller, no SCSI ... You need both cables. > If nothing else it gives me 9-track capability. ------------ ? Don't stress your luck, you had a nice day ;-) > Another "jewel" on the rack was a Dilog Q696-20 dual ESDI controller. I'm > going to try swapping the RQllD for this one and see if I can get NetBSD to > run stably. the 696, runs fien with NetBSD ... > Its like christmas, Better ;-) cheers, emanuel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 18:27:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 3, 99 03:33:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3139 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/2e0865cc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 18:10:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: <99110317201757@antinode.org> from "sms@antinode.org" at Nov 3, 99 05:20:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/2f86760c/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Nov 3 13:36:55 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: References: <000e01bf264d$cc2b72c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 3, 99 03:49:33 pm Message-ID: <199911040036.TAA06074@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:35:23 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: schottky diode again.. > One minor point is to know how your DMM actually measures resistance and > does the diode test. Just in case it's doing something strange. > > The diode test range is similar. It applies a suitable current (a few mA) > to the diode under test and displays the voltage drop across it. I On mine, on diode mode, if my calculations is correct it sources well under 1mA, more like .668 mA (note the period!) or 668 uA across 1K for .668 V drop across it. I'm rusty with this unit conversion so be patient with me. But good thing I remembered the ohm's law. (!) The polarity thing, it is the case with my meter, has to switch probes to complete both forward and revserese tests. > > Neither of these tests should be confused by a Schottky diode, so I agree > that if you have one that appears to do the same thing both ways, it's > defective. Appears to be when using resistance ranges. I better build the modest current draw (say 500mA or so) light bulb and few cells and see what happens. A decent test device should source bit more current than 2mA more like 200mA or more to simulate the "loading" on devices to bring out the bad charactersics in most devices? > But you might want to test a couple of known-good diodes with your meter > to be sure. Done. And shows correct results but don't have brand new schottky diodes around. Old hat, sigh. > > I'm the sort of person who does odd things with new test gear to see how > it behaves. Like checking how the diode test range works (What does it do > if the diode is backwards, etc). Didn't thought of being that sneaky to explore more in test devices in *other ways around* with other tools testing the tool under test. I have done that "cap charge/discharging tests" in past, DMM and analog meter, (no longer have it, was cheapo Radio Shack unit), reacted exactly the same like a analog and used it for some cases but I prefer the ESR for true capacitors testing. > -tony Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 18:42:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. Message-ID: <001401bf265d$a360b020$0400c0a8@winbook> SInce I sometimes take testing fairly seriously, I have several meters with several slightly different diode testing modes. I've found none which indicate a bad diode is good, nor do any of them indicate a good diode is bad. One of my testers is something I built for matching diodes, and and transistors, and it runs a pretty constant 1.26 or 12.6 ma (from an LED biasing a 2N3904) through a diode, and a panel meter displays the forward voltage. Not one of my meters exhibits behavior as described by "Wizard" however. I can't imagine what the problem is, but I agree that digital meters can produce unpredictable results when used in a way not intended by the designers. Generally speaking, the DMM is a Digital Panel Meter with a fixed reference voltage built into it, looking a the output of an analog or even mechanical switch, the purpose of which is to run the appropriate current through/into the component under test to generate a voltage scaled to display a value reflecting the value of the component under test. In the case of diode test, that's really easy, since it's a current within a fairly forgiving range, and which will, with most any diode produce a voltage reflecting what that particular diode drops at that current. Almost all measurements can easily be done in this way. Voltage is easiest, of course. Dick -----Original Message----- From: sms@antinode.org To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Re: schottky diode again.. >> From: "Richard Erlacher" >> >> If you have a diode of any kind which behaves more as a resistor and less as >> a diode, i.e. it measures more or less the same in both directions, though >> differently on different settings on your DMM, I'd say it's broken. > > I'd say you have a modern meter, and neither of you knows how to use >it. The "diode" range on the meter is there because the other >resistance ranges are not useful for testing diodes. Read the manual >for the meter, or buy a curve tracer, or build a continuity tester from >an old flashlight (two-cell preferred), or ... > > I'm curious. Have you tried the same family of (mostly misleading) >tests on a known-good, plain-old silicon diode? > >> > From: jpero@cgocable.net >> > ... >> > says "good" but I know it's very low current also low voltage so that >> > would usually not screen out sick diodes. > > The current and voltage for the resistance ranges are probably much >lower, which is why the readings are so useless. (Repeat previous rant >here.) > >> That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. > > This must be some new meaning of "sure". > > There are some subtle defects possible in a diode which will not be >revealed by the "diode" test on a multimeter, but that's almost >certainly the best test offered by the meter. > >> Wizard > > Apparently a misnomer. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) > 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) > Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) > sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Nov 3 13:47:49 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: References: <99110317201757@antinode.org> from "sms@antinode.org" at Nov 3, 99 05:20:17 pm Message-ID: <199911040047.TAA16463@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:10:57 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: schottky diode again.. > Have you tried reading the 'manuals' for most modern meters (or other > test gear)? They're useless for actually telling you what the instrument > is doing. At one time, such manuals contained schematics, simplified > schematics, circuit descriptions, etc. Not any more :-( Tony as usual is right. I don't read those modern manuals these days. Except skimming for few areas just to be sure. > > Surely the sort of person who buys a multimeter is also the sort of > person who can read/understand a schematic. So the lack of such > information is something of a puzzle to me. That DMM is built by me in kit form and calibrated it for voltage and current. Good as any normal DMM should do. Same with ESR. no calibrating required. Zeroes when shorting and press the button twice. One push turns on ESR, when on and probes is showing low resistance or shorted together and pressed button again zeroes it to account for losses in internal circuits and probe wires. That ESR meter has real docs because it's kit and info that explains why can most of time can measure caps in circuit. Came from Dick Electronics (Aus) for about 40 US. The pot is only there to preset for voltage cut off to warn of low battery condition. > > For this reason, I _always_ test every feature of a new piece of test > gear, often in unconventional ways. I _will_ check diodes on resistance > ranges to see what happens. Often the lower resistance ranges _do_ > provide enough current to provide a useful test on diodes, and the > ability to do the check at more than one current sometimes picks up > 'rogue' diodes. Correct as I suspected by playing. My DMM actually shows better when I move from low res scales to mid to high ranges. I need to grab another meter to see what it do on my dmm. :-) Tony inpsired me to this! > > -tony > Wizard From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Nov 3 18:53:21 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Victor series 1400 CRT tube display calculator Message-ID: <382ad89b.604515917@insight> I'm trying to restore a Victor series 1400 CRT tube display calculator, and wondered if anyone had any information about them. It's got a 3" or so green CRT display with masks for the numbers, and a big board full of mostly unmarked chips. It used to work fine, but one day it quit, and I have no clue why. It's just totally dead. Have checked the fuse, caps, etc. A schematic would be wonderful. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Nov 3 18:52:18 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) Message-ID: <991103195218.276003c0@trailing-edge.com> >So I'm trying to collect the stuff I won at a recent auction, the most >unexpected deal was the PDP 11/34 for $10 with the DEC Cassette tape >transport. Its dirty and grimy but it seems complete. I could satisfy my >desire for a Unibus -11 for now (and at a cost I appreciate :-) > >Anyone have any info on the DEC Cassettes? TU-?? TU-60. > they are standard audio >format cassettes and one of the cassetes that came with it claims to have >PAL, EDIT, and LINK on it. This will be fun to explore. Sounds like the standard cassette tape development tools. >Then I bid on a rack of "junk" which was topped off by a Kennedy 9610 tape >drive. I bid on it because the tape drive had what appearred to be a 50 pin >cable going to a Q-bus card marked Emulex. In fact it was _two_ 50 pin >cables and the Emulex card is labelled QT1310401-00-REV E. On the firmware >the label reads QT1310201-02 REV K. What is it? The QT13 emulates either a MS: (TS11) or MU: (TMSCP) type drive and talks to tape drives with the Pertec-formatted formatted interface. > I was hoping it was a SCSI controller but two connectors? Not SCSI, it's Pertec formatted. >Then the other interesting card was a national instruments 179055-01 which >has an Intel 8291? on board (date code of either '84 or '91). Sort of a >weird 40 pin connector that goes to what looks like the old GPIB connectors. Yep, it's a IEEE-496 interface. >Final question, how do you "de-rack" the 11/34? I can get it to rotate but >I can't get it to let go and come out of the rack. I don't want to >transport it in the rack so... There were several different styles of chassis-mount slides on the 11/34 series. Are your slides shiny metal or are they grey? If they're shiny metal, look for one shiny wobbly lever on each side that has to be pressed in to release the catch. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Nov 3 19:05:59 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Items Added to Classic Computer Sale Message-ID: <3830db85.605262000@insight> Today a number of additional items were added to my on-line sale, including a Tandy 1000, a Tandy 2000, Tallgrass hard drive, Tektronix scope, Beehive MicroB1 video terminal, and a Hazeltine 1000 terminal. Check it out at: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computer-sale.htm -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Nov 3 19:08:47 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: <99110317201757@antinode.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 sms@antinode.org wrote: > > From: "Richard Erlacher" > > > > If you have a diode of any kind which behaves more as a resistor and less as > > a diode, i.e. it measures more or less the same in both directions, though > > differently on different settings on your DMM, I'd say it's broken. > > I'd say you have a modern meter, and neither of you knows how to use > it. The "diode" range on the meter is there because the other Bored, Steve? Off your meds? Or should I just be silent before the Master and snatch whatever crumbs of Engineering knowledge you may see fit to bless us with in the future.... couched as they might be in the sneering disdain of intellectual superiority? Is there any more concerning Semiconductor Diodes, Their Thoery and Application, that we grovelling unwashed should try and understand? Is there anything about the physics... the chemistry... the electronics... the mechanics... of these devices that you can somehow help us with? Or are we to just give up and dabble no further in Things that don't concern us? In light of the tacit proclamation of your superior Diode Understanding, I will await your wisdom and try and not pollute the list with my own mis-understanding... far be it from someone to *help* me learn. > resistance ranges are not useful for testing diodes. Read the manual > for the meter, or buy a curve tracer, or build a continuity tester from > an old flashlight (two-cell preferred), or ... Ever consider that the people who populate this list come from many disparate disciplines and experience? Does it somehow escape you that (gasp!) not all of us are PhD-level engineers? Is it possible that my newsreader has misplaced the diagrams that you might have included re: the above devices that you so casually chide us to posses? > > I'm curious. Have you tried the same family of (mostly misleading) > > The current and voltage for the resistance ranges are probably much > lower, which is why the readings are so useless. And just *why* is that, O Master? Or do we just take your word for it and go in silent faith and sin no more... (Repeat previous rant > here.) See comments above re: your repeat previous rant. > > > That why I used resistance ranges just to be sure. > > This must be some new meaning of "sure". > > > > Wizard > > Apparently a misnomer. Apparently an ad-hominem *personal* attack on a Listmember who has given hours of time and patient knowledge to myself and many, many others on this list of *HOBBYISTS*, Steven... And your contributions are archived... where? Man... Steve, old buddy... are you having a Real Bad Day and just lost your cool, or is this the real Steve? I certainly won't respond to any more stuff like this from you, save with a deletion mark, and on to the next... not that you might care much. Cheers John (Snipped fat sig with much personal data) I grant you this, Schweda: at least you don't hide behind anything when you smack people... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 19:09:28 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) References: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <99110320104501.16228@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 03 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >Then the other interesting card was a national instruments 179055-01 which >has an Intel 8291? on board (date code of either '84 or '91). Sort of a >weird 40 pin connector that goes to what looks like the old GPIB connectors. ...or the current GPIB connectors, for that matter. ;) Is this Unibus or Qbus? Interested in parting with it? -Dave McGuire From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 3 19:28:51 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991103170812.040c6900@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:27 AM 11/4/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >This is almost certainly a formatted Pertec interface, not SCSI. That's a >standard for tape drives, and it's also 2 50 pin cables. Argh, oh well. That leaves the Alphatronix thingy. >That Emulex card sonds Q-bus to me. I hope you're not planning on putting >it in the 11/34... No, no, no. It is in the weirdest uVAX III I ever saw. 19" rack mount third party case with a 40 slot Q/Q bus (first 3 rows are Q/CD and hold the KA650 + 2x 8MB memory.) Then there is a fold out "shelf" in the front which hides a TK50 and space for three drives. Then on the front are the standard VAX drive protect controls and a switch block with the baud rates and other items labelled. Then under _that_ was a BA23 with a Vaxstation 3200 badge, another KA650 w/16MB and some other as yet unidentified boards. (all DEC, no SCSI) [In case it isn't clear, a SCSI Q-bus card is on my Wish list... :-)] Besides the 11/34 is stuffed to the gills. I couldn't fit another Unibus card in there even if I wanted too! Once I get it into my house I'll be able to inventory the cards and back planes (I believe it has at least three if I really did see two bus jumper pairs in there.) >So this card is almost certainly a GPIB interface of some kind. No idea >what bus is on the other end. That's a help. The connector looks like the same short centronics type that plugged into the back of the HP lab measurement unit (a rack like thing with a bunch of GPIB plug-ins) >Well, there are several designs of sliders. With the most common one, you >pull it out all the way and then fiddle with the locking catches on the >sliders to allow it to be pulled out. Make sure you have somebody to help >you -- an 11/34 weighs about 50kg. This was what I was trying, all the way out to the point where the thing can rotate, then there is what appears to be a last pair of catches (which I push) and then it doesn't want to continue out. Weird. Well at least I'll get another shot tomorrow when I take the van. >Don't put an 11/34 down on its back -- you will break the handles on the >circuit breaker. Don't ask.... Ouch! --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 3 19:34:35 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <991103195218.276003c0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991103173035.04089100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:52 PM 11/3/99 -0500, Tim wrote: >TU-60. neat. >The QT13 emulates either a MS: (TS11) or MU: (TMSCP) type drive and >talks to tape drives with the Pertec-formatted formatted interface. Great, now I've got what may be a 9-track drive that works (not tested yet of course) >Yep, it's a IEEE-496 interface. Hmmm, not very useful for me, anyone on the list want it for the cost of shipping (say $5.00?) [it comes with the cable as well.] Q: How to derack an 11/34 >There were several different styles of chassis-mount slides on the 11/34 >series. Are your slides shiny metal or are they grey? If they're shiny >metal, look for one shiny wobbly lever on each side that has to be >pressed in to release the catch. Nope, gunmetal grey. (or is that gray?) anyway two pull handles at the front, pull out to the loud click and get to "rotate" mode, the slides appear to have one more button to release but when pressed slided go a bit further and stop. I suppose it is possible that the rack sliders are binding. --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Nov 3 19:50:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Alphatronix == Viking Message-ID: <4.1.19991103174911.04380490@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Darn if Dan the Man didn't win the prize on this one. The Alphatronix board is a re-badged Viking SCSI board with some of their own firmware. Now to see if I can change its notion of identity.... --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 3 19:54:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. Message-ID: <001401bf2667$81af4ea0$0400c0a8@winbook> Its not a bad idea to test a diode at the current for which it was designed. If you want to do that, it won't be a waste of your effort. However, I would guess it's time not well spent to continue fiddling with the diode you've apparently shown has too much reverse leakage to be of use. I'm persuaded (perhaps incorrectly) that your diode is from a rectifier or switching circuit associated with the battery charging/power conversion process. If it is, then it's probably a rectifier and not a signal diode. You can probably replace it for less than a dollar and get several spares in the same operation. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 5:48 PM Subject: Re: schottky diode again.. > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:10:57 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: schottky diode again.. > Have you tried reading the 'manuals' for most modern meters (or other > test gear)? They're useless for actually telling you what the instrument > is doing. At one time, such manuals contained schematics, simplified > schematics, circuit descriptions, etc. Not any more :-( Tony as usual is right. I don't read those modern manuals these days. Except skimming for few areas just to be sure. > > Surely the sort of person who buys a multimeter is also the sort of > person who can read/understand a schematic. So the lack of such > information is something of a puzzle to me. That DMM is built by me in kit form and calibrated it for voltage and current. Good as any normal DMM should do. Same with ESR. no calibrating required. Zeroes when shorting and press the button twice. One push turns on ESR, when on and probes is showing low resistance or shorted together and pressed button again zeroes it to account for losses in internal circuits and probe wires. That ESR meter has real docs because it's kit and info that explains why can most of time can measure caps in circuit. Came from Dick Electronics (Aus) for about 40 US. The pot is only there to preset for voltage cut off to warn of low battery condition. > > For this reason, I _always_ test every feature of a new piece of test > gear, often in unconventional ways. I _will_ check diodes on resistance > ranges to see what happens. Often the lower resistance ranges _do_ > provide enough current to provide a useful test on diodes, and the > ability to do the check at more than one current sometimes picks up > 'rogue' diodes. Correct as I suspected by playing. My DMM actually shows better when I move from low res scales to mid to high ranges. I need to grab another meter to see what it do on my dmm. :-) Tony inpsired me to this! > > -tony > Wizard From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 3 20:04:06 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Schottky diode Question. References: Message-ID: <3820E996.66501AF1@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > [NiCd batteries] > > Some people try much the same trick with a car battery and not an bench > supply. DONT!. The current is essentially unlimited (and may reach > 1000A), and an explosion is quite likely. I've done it with no problems so far. Of course, I once took a shotgun shell and pounded the primer out with a nail too (no, it didn't explode ... fortunately!) YMMV :)! In a more serious vein, I understand there are ICs built specifically for charging NiCads. The basic idea is to zap the cell, wait a bit, check the voltage, and repeat as necessary. An engineer I know built up a circuit using this particular chip, and was able to recover and use NiCads that had been dead for a number of years. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 19:52:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: schottky diode again.. In-Reply-To: <199911040036.TAA06074@admin.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Nov 3, 99 07:36:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/fe0dfa4f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 19:55:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <991103195218.276003c0@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Nov 3, 99 07:52:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/9bc13d6a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 20:11:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103173035.04089100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 3, 99 05:34:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/3ab0eb3b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 20:15:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103170812.040c6900@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 3, 99 05:28:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/46d88371/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 3 20:27:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103173035.04089100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <991103195218.276003c0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991103181945.040d2280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Yowsa! So the auction was held at a think tank that does do secret research so it should not have eluded me so, but a fellow engineer pointed out, and all the signs are there, I've got a "Tempest" qualified uVAX III! This friend said the extreme grounding inside the case, the seamless design, and the steel wool enmeshed in the air filters was his clue. It is the weirdest (and heaviest) rack mount chassis for its size that I've ever lifted! So the BA23 that I pulled yields another Dilog ESDI controller (yay!) and a (VCB02?) QDSS 8 plane graphics subsystem (w/cab kit) another KA650 and another 16MB of RAM and another 4 channel serial I/O card. Such fun, now to start testing this stuff to see if it works. I've got enough stuff for a first rate VAX Cluster here. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 3 20:33:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Cleaning an 11/34? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991103170812.040c6900@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991103183020.040a3b90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Megan, you recently recovered an 11/34. Any suggestions on cleaning one? I think I'm going to need to get all the gunk out of the 11/34's case which includes a completely decomposed foam pad, and what appears to be dust from the last 20 years. This is my plan for it: 1) Pull the boards and grants (noting location) 2) Vacuuming out the case, using a damp cloth on the front to clear up the front panel. 3) Washing the boards, (except for core mats) 4) Verify the PSU. 5) Install enough boards to get ODT to talk to me and then work it one set at a time until I can boot from the TU-60. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Nov 3 21:32:21 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) Message-ID: <991103223221.276003d9@trailing-edge.com> >> >Then the other interesting card was a national instruments 179055-01 which >> >has an Intel 8291? on board (date code of either '84 or '91). Sort of a >> >weird 40 pin connector that goes to what looks like the old GPIB connectors. >> >> Yep, it's a IEEE-496 interface. >A what? Is this some varient of IEEE-488, or something totally different? Whoops, wrong IEEE number there :-). I meant IEEE-488, as you figured out. I believe that the confusion was caused by IEEE-696, aka "S-100"... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Nov 3 21:42:51 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations Message-ID: Hello all, I've just been fortunate enough to obtain a pair or Xerox D-series machines. One is a 53D (Daybreak? Dove? 6085? 1186?) and the other an 8010. I understand the 53D has its microcode control store in RAM; is there any available information on the microinstruction encoding, and how I might in principle be able to write my own? (I work for a company that did microcode compilers, ten years ago when people still built microcoded machines, so yes, I *do* know what I'm suggesting.) For that matter, is there any available information on the macroinstruction set(s)? So far I've been able to find very little about these boxes. The 53D boots happily into Lisp. Err... could someone please tell me, as soon as possible, how to safely shut this machine off? Two boxes of Lisp manuals, dated June 1997, and still shrink-wrapped. If there is a 'collector' out there who would like to trade for 'working' copies of the same, contact me before I open them.... A carton of Lisp floppies; although these were sold with the 8010, they clearly belong to the 53D, since they're 5.25" not 8". They're marked DS/DD 48tpi; is there anything unusual about these, or could they in principle be read and archived from a current pc? The 8010 doesn't boot. The power supply is fine; the drive spins up and is loud but sounds smooth. The LEDs rest at 0000, and nothing happens. Any obvious things I should try, or will I have to wait until I can do Serious Work on this? -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 3 21:29:00 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside Message-ID: <005d01bf2676$f5607900$dc3e65cc@default> Looks like the PDP 8/S will be running a lot more than FOCAL in the near future. Yesterday in our snow storm I picked up: DF32 with docs and "Disk Monitor" paper tapes. This is the first series DF32s with the "R" series modules and no "8I switch". This DF32 has all the interface hardware to connect to the 8/S. This unit was wrapped in plastic and was used as a spare - it looks like it was used very little. I also got a new spare disk for it if I need it. But... the DF32 needs 13 I/O cables to connect to the 8/s. Anyone still selling these kinds of things? 500+ flip chip spares - mostly R (mostly the #s used in the CPU of 8,8/S) and a bunch of A,B,K,W,Z.. no Ms :-) If anyone is looking for any kind of transistor Flip Chip I am sure I can help. I have over 800+ spares now for this system. Hundreds of Flip Chip Test Specs/Schematics - every possible module I have seen. H901 Flip Chip Patch Panels - These are really sweet. You basically plug the flip chips in the back and use banana plugs in the front. Also, (I didn't know this at the time) hundreds of those "plastic" cards for the front of the H901 to make it easy to wire circuits. More Paper tape software - A lot of old DECUS stuff for the 8/s (old dice game, 5,5/8,8), etc.. Two trays of Disk Monitor and PAL III-D. I STILL NEED MANY MORE PAPER TAPE TRAYS! A half dozen more PDP 8/S software manuals. A data General Nova 3 with 2 40 series drives, paper tape high speed reader, and more docs, disks. Another teletype by Leigh (ASR-33)... This one is nice as it has seen almost no use.. Also, 2 more sets of schematics and serice manuals for this teletype. A couple of weeks ago I picked up another PDP 11/34 with 2 RL02s... Next month I will be getting at least one Straight-8, a bunch of Honeywell 316 systems.. I am still waiting to find out which mystery IBM system I am picking in in the near future (was purchased before '68). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Questions: Is there a company that still sells I/O negibus cables? Has anyone here worked with Disk Monitor? Any special tricks to setting it up or using it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Notes: I am building a quick testing station with the H901s with the 8/s so I can quickly fix these Flip Chips so I can provide a list on my website for anyone who needs one. I got a dedicated internet line now so I will have the 8/S connected to telnet soon. I am hoping to have the drive up and running in a few days so interested people can connect to the 8/s or a Nova. If I can get a good 220V->110V transformer then I can run a couple of PDP 11 systems too. I will update the webpage over the next few weeks to catalog the parts and software I have to help others with their old transistor computers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- Updates to members here (trying to save bandwidth) I am just starting to move my personal collection from storage and have found many versions of complete sets of documentation for RT11, RSX-11M/PLUS, and RSTS/E - ver 7.0,9.0, etc..) also many original distribution sets for many of the above PDP 11 O/Ss. As I am trimming my collection of minis pre '73 (unless they are REALLY something) and many 11s. I am not going to waste anyones time waiting for "will trade for" or anything like that... reasonable $$ will take it. Kevin: Will get back to you on the 11/45,TS03 this week. Chuck: I am going to storage this weekend. I will look for the RK8E cables for you. I don't need them as I don't like any "IC" PDP-8.. well, maybe an 8I. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- Enjoy! john Enjoy... From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Nov 3 22:03:50 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Cleaning an 11/34? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103183020.040a3b90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <4.1.19991103170812.040c6900@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991103221704.00ac8db0@206.231.8.2> Hi Chuck, I've got an 11/34A in a H960 tall rack and your plan sounds just fine so far. You indicate the foam pad is decomposed. Must be the front filter you mean. It disintegrates into little itty bitty pieces that are sometimes hard to clear out. I suggest you carefully remove that glop as much as possible before you remove all the boards so that as little as possible of that stuff falls into the slots. It can be quite difficult to completely clean out a slot in which that soft stuff has been entrapped -trust me. Use a very small good quality brush (one that doesn't shed its bristles) with rather stiff bristles and vacuum the slots carefully. Inspect with a bright flashlight or some other bright light which will let you see clearly into the slots just in case something has dropped in over the recent years. Pain-in-the-neck intermittents can be brought about with crud in the slots which somehow gets up onto edge connector fingers. One o' them Murphy's Laws I think. Also the cable retaining clamp bar on top of the PSU area at the back of the box has a foam pad that turned into the most gooey goo on mine. I just cleaned it off with mineral spirits after doing a preliminary scrape. Bits of that garbage are _especially_ unwelcome to drop into a slot. I just vacuumed my boards using a natural bristle brush to dislodge dust. Note I said natural instead of plastic/nylon bristle. Less static electricity is generated using the natural bristle on the CMOS type boards (like the MS-11L). It was during summertime when I did this too -more humidity in the air to help dissipate static. Looked rather fine after that. Upon the date 06:33 PM 11/3/99 -0800, Chuck McManis said something like: >Megan, you recently recovered an 11/34. Any suggestions on cleaning one? I >think I'm going to need to get all the gunk out of the 11/34's case which >includes a completely decomposed foam pad, and what appears to be dust from >the last 20 years. This is my plan for it: > > 1) Pull the boards and grants (noting location) > 2) Vacuuming out the case, using a damp cloth on the > front to clear up the front panel. > 3) Washing the boards, (except for core mats) > 4) Verify the PSU. > 5) Install enough boards to get ODT to talk to me > and then work it one set at a time until I can > boot from the TU-60. I can't yet get ODT to say much to me on my machine. I've got to resurrect this project yet again in the next week or so. Probably something simple and dumb on my part. I've got to carefully smoke out the problem and try to get it solved. > >--Chuck Nice find for yourself Chuck! Good luck. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mrdos at swbell.net Wed Nov 3 22:08:33 1999 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! Message-ID: <002501bf267a$43ac63a0$de2aa497@compaq> I am kind of new to the collecting game. I am in need of some help. I need someone to tell me where I can find older and larger computers. I have a lot of micros, but now I am looking for bigger game. I have decided to focus my collection on older mainframes and minicomputers. Can anyone point me to sources? I found a local business that has older and larger computers, but the owner and I didn't hit it off. It's really a shame. He had some great stuff. While I was there I had to watch the workers scrap what looked like a very old classic control panel. Also, someone recently offered me a UNIVAC System 80. Anyone know anything about it? Is it something worth having in a collection? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991103/e10dc09e/attachment.html From cvisors at CarnageVisors.net Wed Nov 3 23:23:07 1999 From: cvisors at CarnageVisors.net (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: New to the list & other Stuff.... Message-ID: <3821183B.46005833@CarnageVisors.net> Hi all, I have been lurking on this list for the last few days, and I thought I will introduce myself... Well I'm 25 or so ,living in australia, and I have aquired a number of DEC MicroVAX IIs. one of which is missing enough cards to render it useless...(oh well such is life.. I am slowly trying to get at least one of these machines working, and I hope to have one of them working soon. What I was wondering, is I have a lot of cards for these machines, and was wondering if anyone would be able to help me identify them and tell me what would be the best way to order them in the Q-bus, and help me with setting the adresses on the cards which nees such settings. I realy want to get one of these old beasts going, and hopefully get netBSD running on them. Thanks Benjamin Gardiner From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Nov 4 00:57:58 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Nx 586 Message-ID: <001c01bf2691$ee888120$e83bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Hans Franke wrote: >> >Not classic I know, but maybe more obsolete than some 10 year old computers >> >perhaps? > >> Now this comment I like!!! It sums up my feelings about the collectibility >> of x86 based systems designed to run Microsoftian OS's. > >Well, the NextGen is (was) a quite remarkable step. And for >PCs, I'm already starting to aquire some early Pentiums. >Dual P60 server systems _are_ already vanishing. > Well I've put aside some P60's with the floating point bug at least. >Anyway, what kind of Nx586 boards are offered ? > Don't know yet, I'm still negotiating price. They're in Australia. Hans Olminkhof From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 4 02:29:03 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: <021f01bf2659$e8b4a180$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> References: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: A HP 9144A tape thing is sitting at one of the salvage places I go by. There is a tape in it, but thats about all I can tell. Location is southern Orange county. I am pleased to report that the MassPar I told the list about has been shipped off to British Columbia, apparently to use. IBM 3174 was sitting in another place. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 4 02:36:30 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: 11/34 & Cool stuff, but what is it? (Q-bus gear) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:33:22 -0800) References: <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991104083630.24866.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Anyone have any info on the DEC Cassettes? TU-?? they are standard audio IIRC, it is a TU60, and is used with a TA11 interface. Unfortunately they are not block-addressable like DECtape. > has an Intel 8291? on board (date code of either '84 or '91). Sort of a > weird 40 pin connector that goes to what looks like the old GPIB connectors. An Intel 8291 is a GPIB interface. > Final question, how do you "de-rack" the 11/34? I can get it to rotate but > I can't get it to let go and come out of the rack. I don't want to > transport it in the rack so... I've got a similar problem with a a BA11 that slid out on the rails fine, and will rotate, but I can't get it to slide back into the rack. The right rail is catching on something, but I can't find an obvious release. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 4 02:46:11 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: (message from Kevin Schoedel on Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:42:51 -0500) References: Message-ID: <19991104084611.24924.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin Schoedel wrote: > I've just been fortunate enough to obtain a pair or Xerox D-series > machines. One is a 53D (Daybreak? Dove? 6085? 1186?) and the other an > 8010. [...] The 53D boots happily into Lisp. Must be an 1186. Mostly the same as a 6085, but with a floating point board. I'd guess that probably 6085 can be run on it, but I don't really know. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 4 05:18:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Retrogaming In-Reply-To: References: <021f01bf2659$e8b4a180$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: <199911041018.LAA02546@mail2.siemens.de> Check out http://www.devnull.net/nethack/ (Lynxfriendly :). These Guys are a new (?) serious bunch of Classic Users, doing a contest for Nethack belivers. Gruss H. (I once got almost kicked out of a job for playing urogue :) -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 4 04:35:46 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside In-Reply-To: <005d01bf2676$f5607900$dc3e65cc@default> Message-ID: >More Paper tape software - A lot of old DECUS stuff for the 8/s (old dice >game, 5,5/8,8), etc.. Two trays of Disk Monitor and PAL III-D. I STILL NEED >MANY MORE PAPER TAPE TRAYS! I have two trays, blue things with a clear top and 8 sections about 1x1 inch, 4 or 5 of said sections complete with papertape still in them. $1 & postage to the first who wants them. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 4 04:58:54 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! In-Reply-To: <002501bf267a$43ac63a0$de2aa497@compaq> Message-ID: > I am kind of new to the collecting game. I am in need of some >help. I need someone to tell me where I can find older and larger >computers. I have a lot of micros, but now I am looking for bigger game. >I have decided to focus my collection on older mainframes and >minicomputers. Can anyone point me to sources? I found a local business >that has older and larger computers, but the To be of any use we would need to know what area you are willing to travel to to pick up stuff. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 4 09:20:41 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <021f01bf2659$e8b4a180$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> <4.1.19991103150843.04377520@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991104092041.2337b8a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Mike, At 12:29 AM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote: >A HP 9144A tape thing is sitting at one of the salvage places I go by. >There is a tape in it, but thats about all I can tell. Location is southern >Orange county. The 9144 is a tape backup. It's HP-IB and can be used EXACTLY like a HP-IB disk drive. You can even boot from it but it's S-L-O-W and HP doesn't advise it except in case of emergency. It's capacity depends on which tape you use in it. The "S" tape has a capacity of 15 Mb and the "L" tape has a capacity of about 65 Mb. The 9144s are common but the tapes are sort of hard to come by. I could use the tape if you can get it without any trouble. The 9144 uses a 16 track tape. The 9145 is similar but uses a 32 track tape. BTW the 9144 and 9145 both use preformatted tapes. You MUST use preformatted HP tapes in them. The 9145 can read but not write 9144 tapes, I have neve been able to find 9145 tapes. Joe From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Nov 4 07:34:58 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: New to the list & other Stuff.... Message-ID: <01BF269F.7B0EB440.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Thursday, November 04, 1999 12:23 AM, Benjamin Gardiner [SMTP:cvisors@CarnageVisors.net] wrote: > Hi all, > I have been lurking on this list for the last few days, and I thought I > will introduce myself... > Well I'm 25 or so ,living in australia, and I have aquired a number of > DEC MicroVAX IIs. > one of which is missing enough cards to render it useless...(oh well > such is life.. > I am slowly trying to get at least one of these machines working, and I > hope to have one of them working soon. What I was wondering, is I have a > lot of cards for these machines, and was wondering if anyone would be > able to help me identify them and tell me what would be the best way to > order them in the Q-bus, and help me with setting the adresses on the > cards which nees such settings. > I realy want to get one of these old beasts going, and hopefully get > netBSD running on them. > > Thanks > Benjamin Gardiner Hi Benamin, Well you've found the right place for info on these machines. I don't collect VAXs but, many of the list members do. I think you'll find everyone most cooperative in sharing their knowledge of these things. If you have any specific questions, just ask... Later, Steve Robertson - From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Nov 4 08:09:20 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991104092041.2337b8a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from Joe at "Nov 4, 99 09:20:41 am" Message-ID: <199911041409.JAA12055@hiway1.exit109.com> > Mike, > > At 12:29 AM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote: > >A HP 9144A tape thing is sitting at one of the salvage places I go by. > >There is a tape in it, but thats about all I can tell. Location is southern > >Orange county. > > The 9144 is a tape backup. It's HP-IB and can be used EXACTLY like a > HP-IB disk drive. You can even boot from it but it's S-L-O-W and HP doesn't > advise it except in case of emergency. It's capacity depends on which tape > you use in it. The "S" tape has a capacity of 15 Mb and the "L" tape has a > capacity of about 65 Mb. The 9144s are common but the tapes are sort of > hard to come by. I could use the tape if you can get it without any > trouble. The 9144 uses a 16 track tape. The 9145 is similar but uses a 32 > track tape. BTW the 9144 and 9145 both use preformatted tapes. You MUST > use preformatted HP tapes in them. The 9145 can read but not write 9144 > tapes, I have neve been able to find 9145 tapes. I don't recall seeing 3rd-party 9145 tapes (32-track), but for the 9144 you want 3M DC600 IOTAMAT-format. <<>> From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Nov 4 08:25:08 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff Message-ID: <01BF26A6.7D2D2340.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Thursday, November 04, 1999 4:21 AM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > Mike, > > At 12:29 AM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote: > >A HP 9144A tape thing is sitting at one of the salvage places I go by. > >There is a tape in it, but thats about all I can tell. Location is southern > >Orange county. > > The 9144 is a tape backup. It's HP-IB and can be used EXACTLY like a > HP-IB disk drive. You can even boot from it but it's S-L-O-W and HP doesn't > advise it except in case of emergency. It's capacity depends on which tape > you use in it. The "S" tape has a capacity of 15 Mb and the "L" tape has a > capacity of about 65 Mb. The 9144s are common but the tapes are sort of > hard to come by. I could use the tape if you can get it without any > trouble. The 9144 uses a 16 track tape. The 9145 is similar but uses a 32 > track tape. BTW the 9144 and 9145 both use preformatted tapes. You MUST > use preformatted HP tapes in them. The 9145 can read but not write 9144 > tapes, I have neve been able to find 9145 tapes. > > Joe > > I recently pickup up a 9144 and it works great with my HP9000. I've also got a couple of boxes of new tapes and might be willing to part with a few if someone REALLY needs them (Joe?). Later, Steve Robertson - From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 4 08:40:49 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff Message-ID: <19991104.084057.212.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> John: Have you actually tried this? The reason I'm asking is that on the Imation web site, they have a compatibility chart, and the HP 9144 is listed as having 'NONE': HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9134A NONE HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9142A, HP9144A/M NONE HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9145A NONE Although IOTAMAT format tapes are listed elsewhere on the table at: http://www2.imation.com/dsp/cmptblty/dc_drv.html Could it be that Imation is hiding HP's 'dirty little secret'? Jeff On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:09:20 -0500 (EST) John Ruschmeyer writes: > > I don't recall seeing 3rd-party 9145 tapes (32-track), but for the > 9144 > you want 3M DC600 IOTAMAT-format. > > <<>> ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 4 08:44:26 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff Message-ID: <19991104.084637.212.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Steve: You have a working hp-9000? What model? What OS are you using? If it's a 68020 or higher, I *really* want to talk to you! Jeff On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:25:08 -0500 Steve Robertson writes: > I recently pickup up a 9144 and it works great with my HP9000. I've > also got a couple of boxes of new tapes and might be willing to part with > a few if someone REALLY needs them (Joe?). > > Later, > > Steve Robertson - > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Nov 4 08:49:48 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:21 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: <19991104.084057.212.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from Jeffrey l Kaneko at "Nov 4, 99 08:40:49 am" Message-ID: <199911041449.JAA21557@hiway1.exit109.com> > > John: > > Have you actually tried this? Back when we were using 9144's, we used to do it all the time. > The reason I'm asking is that on the Imation web site, they have a > compatibility chart, and the HP 9144 is listed as having 'NONE': > > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9134A NONE > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9142A, HP9144A/M NONE > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9145A NONE > > Although IOTAMAT format tapes are listed elsewhere on the table at: > > http://www2.imation.com/dsp/cmptblty/dc_drv.html > > Could it be that Imation is hiding HP's 'dirty little secret'? Odd. <<>> From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 4 09:16:05 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff Message-ID: <19991104.091733.212.7.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I think the caveat is that it needs to be INITIALIZE'd before use. Jeff On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:49:48 -0500 (EST) John Ruschmeyer writes: > > > > John: > > > > Have you actually tried this? > > Back when we were using 9144's, we used to do it all the time. > > > The reason I'm asking is that on the Imation web site, they have a > > > compatibility chart, and the HP 9144 is listed as having 'NONE': > > > > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9134A NONE > > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9142A, HP9144A/M NONE > > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9145A NONE > > > > Although IOTAMAT format tapes are listed elsewhere on the table > at: > > > > http://www2.imation.com/dsp/cmptblty/dc_drv.html > > > > Could it be that Imation is hiding HP's 'dirty little secret'? > > Odd. > > <<>> ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Nov 4 09:55:48 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: John Ruschmeyer's message of "Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:09:20 -0500 (EST)" References: <199911041409.JAA12055@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: <199911041555.HAA06624@daemonweed.reanimators.org> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > I don't recall seeing 3rd-party 9145 tapes (32-track), but for the 9144 > you want 3M DC600 IOTAMAT-format. 3M used to sell the 15MB/150-foot 9144-compatible flavor as the DC615HC. A former employer tried to get me to use those once, which is how I found this out. After trying one for a while, I declined. Here's why: There are two or three layers of "formatting" on these. The 3M tapes had the lowest layer, the one that must be done at the factory because it requires the full-width head that can write block delimiters. The HP tapes have the next layer as well, the data that is read by the tape drive and which contains usage and block sparing information. If you have an HP3000 w/9144 the VINIT FORMAT command will write this, but in my experiments at the former employer I found it took noticeably longer to format the 3M tapes (perhaps it was testing the tape blocks to figure out which blocks need sparing? I don't know). I didn't think it was worth the couple of bucks we would save per tape for someone to sit on his or her butt waiting for this to happen. But once you do this they do work. And I have no idea how to do this step with a 9000. The third layer? Well, on a 3000 you access the 9144 as though it is a removable-pack disc drive. Fortunately the 3000 has the concept of accessing a disc serially: you use the VINIT SERIAL command to label the "disc" (actually the tape) as a serial volume. I don't think this applies to 9000s but I think for the 9000s you are supposed to pipe tape data through tcio (which buffers the tape drive I/O in a way that reduces wear and tear on the drive and tape). -Frank McConnell From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Nov 4 10:59:14 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Basic 4 tape drive? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991104115914.007a3470@mail.wincom.net> I was just bequeathed a batch of Basic 4 bits, terminals, etc. and the only thing that looks interesting is some sort of tape drive with the following identification: MAI Basic 4 Information Systems Model 4402 and Cypher F880640-90-1025U Can anyone tell me what this thing is? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 4 10:44:31 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Retrogaming In-Reply-To: <199911041018.LAA02546@mail2.siemens.de> References: <021f01bf2659$e8b4a180$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: >Check out >http://www.devnull.net/nethack/ >(Lynxfriendly :). These Guys are a new (?) serious bunch >of Classic Users, doing a contest for Nethack belivers. > >Gruss >H. > >(I once got almost kicked out of a job for playing urogue :) The secret is to get your boss, or even better his boss hooked during lunch, then eventually they don't care when you play as long as you give them some hints. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 4 10:59:13 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991104092041.2337b8a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <021f01bf2659$e8b4a180$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: >Mike, > >At 12:29 AM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote: >>A HP 9144A tape thing is sitting at one of the salvage places I go by. >>There is a tape in it, but thats about all I can tell. Location is southern >>Orange county. > > The 9144 is a tape backup. It's HP-IB and can be used EXACTLY like a >HP-IB disk drive. You can even boot from it but it's S-L-O-W and HP doesn't >advise it except in case of emergency. It's capacity depends on which tape >you use in it. The "S" tape has a capacity of 15 Mb and the "L" tape has a >capacity of about 65 Mb. The 9144s are common but the tapes are sort of >hard to come by. I could use the tape if you can get it without any >trouble. The 9144 uses a 16 track tape. The 9145 is similar but uses a 32 >track tape. BTW the 9144 and 9145 both use preformatted tapes. You MUST >use preformatted HP tapes in them. The 9145 can read but not write 9144 >tapes, I have neve been able to find 9145 tapes. > > Joe Any hints on how the tape might come out? BTW if it makes you feel any worse one of the guys told me while I was looking at it that they already pitched a box of tapes for it. ;( From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Thu Nov 4 11:25:00 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's an "unload" button on the front...at least there is on mine. Cheers, Aaron On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Any hints on how the tape might come out? There's an "unload" button on the front...at least there is on mine. > BTW if it makes you feel any worse one of the guys told me while I was > looking at it that they already pitched a box of tapes for it. ;( Ugh... From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 4 11:40:21 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Basic 4 tape drive? References: <3.0.5.32.19991104115914.007a3470@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <9911041241340D.18001@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999, Charles E. Fox wrote: >I was just bequeathed a batch of Basic 4 bits, terminals, etc. and the >only thing that looks interesting is some sort of tape drive with the >following identification: > > MAI Basic 4 Information Systems > Model 4402 > > and > > Cypher F880640-90-1025U > > Can anyone tell me what this thing is? Sounds like a Cipher F880 to me. A very popular, reasonably nice 9trk drive. 800/1600bpi if I recall correctly, pertec 2-connector formatted interface, self-threading, very quiet in operation. Nice drive. -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 4 11:54:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Basic 4 tape drive? Message-ID: <000d01bf26ed$a7f7c200$0400c0a8@winbook> The only thing that is in any way familiar about this is the Cipher name. Cipher Data Products was a supplier of 9-track tape drives for most of the time during which 9-track drives were relevant. For example, I've got an S-100 board set and a controller formatter which comes from Cipher. The board set I have seems to be a Pertec-type interface adapter, though, i.e. it uses the same pair of 50-conductor cables. Is that what you have on this tape drive? Is it a 9-track type? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Charles E. Fox To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: Basic 4 tape drive? > > > I was just bequeathed a batch of Basic 4 bits, terminals, etc. and the >only thing that looks interesting is some sort of tape drive with the >following identification: > > MAI Basic 4 Information Systems > Model 4402 > > and > > Cypher F880640-90-1025U > > Can anyone tell me what this thing is? > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 4 12:42:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: New to the list & other Stuff.... In-Reply-To: <01BF269F.7B0EB440.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991104093705.0422b9e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Sorry Ben, I lost your original email, but going from this: On Thursday, November 04, 1999 12:23 AM, Benjamin Gardiner wrote: [snip] > ... I have aquired a number of DEC MicroVAX IIs. This is goodness, often you will need several to get one. All of my VAXen live for the One and die for the One :-) Which is a not so clever way of saying that it is not uncommon to have one machine that is fully restored and one or more donor machines supporting it. For historical machines I'd be inclined to keep them original but others differ on that opinion as well. It sounds like you want something to play with. > one of which is missing enough cards to render it useless...(oh well > such is life.. One of the nicest uVAX II cases was the BA123. These cases are really neat but prone to damage easily. I'm still trying to find a replacement door panel for mine. So empty card cages can be valuable! Plus the ultimate donation is a replacement power supply (PSU). > I am slowly trying to get at least one of these machines working, and I > hope to have one of them working soon. What I was wondering, is I have a > lot of cards for these machines, and was wondering if anyone would be > able to help me identify them and tell me what would be the best way to > order them in the Q-bus, and help me with setting the adresses on the > cards which nees such settings. > I realy want to get one of these old beasts going, and hopefully get > netBSD running on them. This we can help with, I've done it on several machines now. There are several steps to go through though. 1) You have to determine what "kind" of box your VAXen are in. The two I'm most familar with are the BA23 and the BA123. BA23 - Is 19" wide and 5" tall when rack mounted and it is about 7" wide and 19" tall when it is in its floor pedestal configuration. It is fairly easily lifted. It has space inside for 1 drive + tape. BA123 - (aka "World Box") is about 15" wide and 22" high, usually has wheels on the bottom and is damn difficult to lift. It has space inside for four drives + tape. 2) The minimum system to netboot NetBSD (reccomended as the first step) is : CPU + 8MB RAM Ethernet The backplane consists of rows of four connectors each, each row constitutes a "slot" in my mind but in fact some rows are two slots each. The BA23 has three "special" slots where all four connectors are used and the BA123 has four special slots. These are where the CPU and memory go although you can put "dual wide" cards in them if you stick to the top two connectors. They are known as Q/CD slots because the first two connectors are Q-bus and the second two are available for boards to use. Then after the special slots the backplane is Q/Q meaning that two dual wide Q bus cards go into those slots side by side. Q bus does not tolerate "empty" slots so you need to have all Q slots from the CPU to the last card in the system be filled. Here is a typical layout: +--- M7606 (CPU) ------------------------+ +--- M7608 (memory) ---------------------+ +--- M7608 (memory) ---------------------+ +--- M7516 (net)----+ EMPTY on BA123 + +--- M7546 (tk50)---+----M9047 (grant)---+ +--- M7555 (RQDx3)--+ EMPTY + + EMPTY + EMPTY + + ... + + +-------------------+--------------------+ Connections go to the CPU (Console port, selector port) Top connectors across the CPU and memory cards Ethernet connector to the 7516 TK50 connected to the 7546 Cable from the RQDx3 to the breakout board for the drives. --Chuck From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 13:41:19 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Fwd: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday Message-ID: <19991104194119.6926.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > Looks like the PDP 8/S will be running a lot more than FOCAL in the near > future. Cool. > Yesterday in our snow storm I picked up: > > DF32 with docs and "Disk Monitor" paper tapes. This is the first series > DF32s with the "R" series modules and no "8I switch". What's the -8/I switch? I have several DF-32's. All well used and not necessarily working (I have played with them but never really tried to use them for storage - the rotation sensor has been verified on at least one drive, but that's about it). One set came with the straight -8s, another set came with the -8/I. If you get this working, I'd love to get a copy of the tapes - I have an -8/I that may someday have 8K on it (if I sacrifice an -8/L by stealing its core; I have N machines that use them and (including the second field on the -8/I), N-2 core stacks) I'm thinking of wiring up some CMOS static RAM on the pins of an -8/L for its 4K and migrating the core to the -8/I). I could use the slot between the planes on the core stack for workspace It's unpopulated. > This unit was wrapped in plastic > and was used as a spare - it looks like it was used very little. I also got > a new spare disk for it if I need it. You know that the heads crash everytime you power it off, yes? They are the kind of disks you power up and leave on forever. In the real world, when the osmium coating wore too thin to record data, DEC FS flipped the disk once and reformatted. > But... the DF32 needs 13 I/O cables to > connect to the 8/s. Anyone still selling these kinds of things? I do not know *who* would have that sort of thing. I have one set per master drive. No spares. Sorry. > H901 Flip Chip Patch Panels - These are really sweet. You basically plug the > flip chips in the back and use banana plugs in the front. Also, (I didn't > know this at the time) hundreds of those "plastic" cards for the front of > the H901 to make it easy to wire circuits. Is this the original DEC logic experimenter's board? There were two produced: one for DTL, one for TTL. I got a classroom book for the TTL version when I was in grade school. I did many of the exercises on paper since I didn't have the hardware to try stuff out on. > I am building a quick testing station with the H901s with the 8/s so I can > quickly fix these Flip Chips so I can provide a list on my website for > anyone who needs one. I'd love to see pictures. > I will update the webpage over the next few weeks to catalog the parts and > software I have to help others with their old transistor computers. Perhaps in a couple of months, I'll dig down through the pile far enough to begin to recondition the cleaner of my Straight-8s. The dirty one was apparently from a newspaper and coated in ink. It has a PA-60 which is, I think, some kind of typesetter's interface. > Updates to members here (trying to save bandwidth) > > Chuck: I am going to storage this weekend. I will look for the RK8E cables > for you. I don't need them as I don't like any "IC" PDP-8.. well, maybe an > 8I. You have maybe an extra RK8E that you aren't going to use? All I have for hard disk on ONMIBUS is RL01/RL8A sets. I've never had any RK stuff for the -8. I do have this 16-sector RK05F pack (and no 16-sector RK05J packs, only 12 sectors) that I'd love to read, but we've been over this on the list before. At this point, I'd probably have to hack one of my RK05J drives and replace the heads, realign it to match the pack, back it up, etc., etc. I've always wondered what's on it. I've had it since 1984 and never owned the gear to read it. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 14:03:37 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside Message-ID: <19991104200337.11736.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >More Paper tape software - A lot of old DECUS stuff for the 8/s (old dice > >game, 5,5/8,8), etc.. Two trays of Disk Monitor and PAL III-D. I STILL NEED > >MANY MORE PAPER TAPE TRAYS! > > I have two trays, blue things with a clear top and 8 sections about 1x1 > inch, 4 or 5 of said sections complete with papertape still in them. $1 & > postage to the first who wants them. Ooh... ooh... I'm interested (if you don't want to ship them to Canada). What's on the paper tape? I'm about to have a serial papertape reader hooked up to my Linux box (DEC PR/S01) as soon as I can borrow my friend's 20mA<->RS-232 adapter. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 4 14:23:23 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday Message-ID: <000a01bf2702$721ec420$6377e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:42 PM Subject: Fwd: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday >--- John B wrote: >> Looks like the PDP 8/S will be running a lot more than FOCAL in the near >> future. > >Cool. > >> Yesterday in our snow storm I picked up: >> >> DF32 with docs and "Disk Monitor" paper tapes. This is the first series >> DF32s with the "R" series modules and no "8I switch". > >What's the -8/I switch? I have several DF-32's. All well used and not >necessarily working (I have played with them but never really tried to use >them for storage - the rotation sensor has been verified on at least one >drive, but that's about it). One set came with the straight -8s, another >set came with the -8/I. Depending on the DF32, I have found two transistor versions. One with a rotary switch on the right side of the front and one without. The switch allowed you to select "PDP 8, 8/S, 8/I". I went through the logic today and all looks good. (I am NOT spinning the drive up.....yet). > >If you get this working, I'd love to get a copy of the tapes - I have an -8/I >that may someday have 8K on it (if I sacrifice an -8/L by stealing its core; >I have N machines that use them and (including the second field on the -8/I), >N-2 core stacks) I'm thinking of wiring up some CMOS static RAM on the pins >of an -8/L for its 4K and migrating the core to the -8/I). I could use the >slot between the planes on the core stack for workspace It's unpopulated. > You don't need 8K for DM. It happily works in 4K of space (with FOCAL 1968 [I have two versions of focal - any idea why????]). I am just getting together a list of tapes and boards now to help folks out. I played the dice game today (craps - 5/8-14 ). Pretty cool! >> This unit was wrapped in plastic >> and was used as a spare - it looks like it was used very little. I also got >> a new spare disk for it if I need it. > >You know that the heads crash everytime you power it off, yes? They are the >kind of disks you power up and leave on forever. In the real world, when the >osmium coating wore too thin to record data, DEC FS flipped the disk once >and reformatted. > Yes I do. People have been warning me.... and I have *one* thing to say. I didn't get this far with this transistor computer to let some silly design flaw stop this system from running a disc. I will modify the hardware anyway I can to stop it from crashing (even add some solenoids to pull the heads back if I have to!). I want to keep this system "chip" free... I almost fell over when I saw the "disc file" had no chips too! I will have this system done when it is running only/all transistor peripherals it now has plus the DF32 with DM software and the 32B Oscilloscope interface. >> But... the DF32 needs 13 I/O cables to >> connect to the 8/s. Anyone still selling these kinds of things? > >I do not know *who* would have that sort of thing. I have one set per master >drive. No spares. Sorry. > >> H901 Flip Chip Patch Panels - These are really sweet. You basically plug the >> flip chips in the back and use banana plugs in the front. Also, (I didn't >> know this at the time) hundreds of those "plastic" cards for the front of >> the H901 to make it easy to wire circuits. > >Is this the original DEC logic experimenter's board? There were two produced: >one for DTL, one for TTL. I got a classroom book for the TTL version when I >was in grade school. I did many of the exercises on paper since I didn't have >the hardware to try stuff out on. Yes they are. You can find them in the DEC handbooks. These only support A,B,R,K,W flip chips... sorry no Ms :-) . Only for the transistor stuff! > >> I am building a quick testing station with the H901s with the 8/s so I can >> quickly fix these Flip Chips so I can provide a list on my website for >> anyone who needs one. > >I'd love to see pictures. > I am putting pictures online this weekend and will update everyone here. I installed the H901 panels on the 8/s so I can start some "testing" fun. I have to go out this weekend to buy some banana plug test leads for interconnection. These make it a lot easier to work with flip chips. I think I am going to have our graphic designer make a "No Chips Allowed" gif for the page. >> I will update the webpage over the next few weeks to catalog the parts and >> software I have to help others with their old transistor computers. > >Perhaps in a couple of months, I'll dig down through the pile far enough to >begin to recondition the cleaner of my Straight-8s. The dirty one was >apparently from a newspaper and coated in ink. It has a PA-60 which is, I >think, some kind of typesetter's interface. > Good stuff. I really enjoy restoring transistor systems.... it's made PDP 11s/newer 8s really boring. I am sure you will have as much fun as I have. >> Updates to members here (trying to save bandwidth) >> >> Chuck: I am going to storage this weekend. I will look for the RK8E cables >> for you. I don't need them as I don't like any "IC" PDP-8.. well, maybe an >> 8I. > >You have maybe an extra RK8E that you aren't going to use? All I have for >hard disk on ONMIBUS is RL01/RL8A sets. I've never had any RK stuff for >the -8. I do have this 16-sector RK05F pack (and no 16-sector RK05J packs, >only 12 sectors) that I'd love to read, but we've been over this on the >list before. At this point, I'd probably have to hack one of my RK05J drives >and replace the heads, realign it to match the pack, back it up, etc., etc. >I've always wondered what's on it. I've had it since 1984 and never owned the >gear to read it. > I have 8 RK05 drives. They all run well. I use to add as many of them as I could. I am looking for newer PDP-8 parts for folks here as I use to scrap them up to a couple of months ago. I even found bits of an 8I I butchered 15 years ago... I could never understand how someone could get excited about a 12 bit computer in 1972 when all the big boys were 16 bit or more. If I still have the cables he can have them. Besides, even if I tried to patch an RK05 to the 8/s (with about 400 flip chips) I would be doing it's "chip free" atmosphere a real disservice. john >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From g at kurico.com Thu Nov 4 14:39:32 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff In-Reply-To: <000a01bf2702$721ec420$6377e2d1@default> Message-ID: What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > 100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it through ups are you just guaranteeing it'll get banged up? What alternative, relatively inexpensive methods are available? George From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 4 15:07:11 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside Message-ID: <001901bf2708$92e58440$6377e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside > > >--- Mike Ford wrote: >> >More Paper tape software - A lot of old DECUS stuff for the 8/s (old dice >> >game, 5,5/8,8), etc.. Two trays of Disk Monitor and PAL III-D. I STILL NEED >> >MANY MORE PAPER TAPE TRAYS! >> >> I have two trays, blue things with a clear top and 8 sections about 1x1 >> inch, 4 or 5 of said sections complete with papertape still in them. $1 & >> postage to the first who wants them. > >Ooh... ooh... I'm interested (if you don't want to ship them to Canada). >What's on the paper tape? I'm about to have a serial papertape reader >hooked up to my Linux box (DEC PR/S01) as soon as I can borrow my friend's >20mA<->RS-232 adapter. > If the paper tapes have anything PDP 8 on them I can send you a copy. I have the PDP-8/S already hooked up to my PC (positive level converters ;-) ) One other thing.... you mentioned you wanted to add more memory to one of your straight 8s. I have two studies done by the McMaster University on building core memory expanders for the 8,8/s using straight 8 memory (8/s,8 used the same kinds) and some flip chips. You might want to kill one of your straight 8s for the memory and ebay/keep the rest of it. I am picking up at least one straight-8 over the next 3 weeks and if I end up with two (looks that way) I have the one sold (have to quickly restore it first) and the other I will butcher for memory for my 8/s. A straight-8 still isn't worth as much whole as it is in parts.. Ugh.. You might want to think about doing that as it is nice to keep the same boards/technology in a transistor computer like that. john john >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 4 15:11:18 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff References: Message-ID: <3821F676.1511D508@mainecoon.com> George Currie wrote: > > What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > > 100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it > through ups are you just guaranteeing it'll get banged up? What > alternative, relatively inexpensive methods are available? It depends on how soon you want to get it. I shmooze the local trucking firms in the hopes that they'll throw stuff onto one of their rigs when they're deadheading back into town. The fallback to that is so-called LTL -- less than truckload -- where a local carrier collects the stuff and takes it to a depot where it sits until a large enough load heading your direction can be assembled. Stuff can sit for weeks, but it's cheap, especially for minis. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Nov 4 15:21:48 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside In-Reply-To: <001901bf2708$92e58440$6377e2d1@default> from John B at "Nov 4, 1999 04:07:11 pm" Message-ID: <19991104212200Z433170-20263+231@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > One other thing.... you mentioned you wanted to add more memory to one of > your straight 8s. I have two studies done by the McMaster University on > building core memory expanders for the 8,8/s using straight 8 memory (8/s,8 > used the same kinds) and some flip chips. You might want to kill one of your > straight 8s for the memory and ebay/keep the rest of it. I am picking up at > least one straight-8 over the next 3 weeks and if I end up with two (looks > that way) I have the one sold (have to quickly restore it first) and the > other I will butcher for memory for my 8/s. A straight-8 still isn't worth > as much whole as it is in parts.. Ugh.. You might want to think about doing > that as it is nice to keep the same boards/technology in a transistor > computer like that. > I remember that particular 8s from when I was an undergraduate. I did my undergraduate degree at McMaster, at a time when they were still running PDP 8 machines. That probably ages me :-). At one point it was a server for a group of DG Novas (I think the original ones). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From mrdos at swbell.net Thu Nov 4 15:25:33 1999 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! Message-ID: <001001bf270b$2208f880$462ea497@compaq> I live around the Dallas/Fort Worth area. How far I am willing to travel depends on the system. Probably a few hours, say 3 or 4. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 5:16 AM Subject: Re: New Collector in Need of Help! >> I am kind of new to the collecting game. I am in need of some >>help. I need someone to tell me where I can find older and larger >>computers. I have a lot of micros, but now I am looking for bigger game. >>I have decided to focus my collection on older mainframes and >>minicomputers. Can anyone point me to sources? I found a local business >>that has older and larger computers, but the > >To be of any use we would need to know what area you are willing to travel >to to pick up stuff. > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 4 15:28:56 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside Message-ID: <002201bf270b$9a01dc80$6377e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Mark Green To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside >> >> One other thing.... you mentioned you wanted to add more memory to one of >> your straight 8s. I have two studies done by the McMaster University on >> building core memory expanders for the 8,8/s using straight 8 memory (8/s,8 >> used the same kinds) and some flip chips. You might want to kill one of your >> straight 8s for the memory and ebay/keep the rest of it. I am picking up at >> least one straight-8 over the next 3 weeks and if I end up with two (looks >> that way) I have the one sold (have to quickly restore it first) and the >> other I will butcher for memory for my 8/s. A straight-8 still isn't worth >> as much whole as it is in parts.. Ugh.. You might want to think about doing >> that as it is nice to keep the same boards/technology in a transistor >> computer like that. >> > >I remember that particular 8s from when I was an undergraduate. I >did my undergraduate degree at McMaster, at a time when they were >still running PDP 8 machines. That probably ages me :-). At one >point it was a server for a group of DG Novas (I think the >original ones). > I actually bought the Nova network that was there too! I have the Nova 2, Nova 3 with the Nova-PDP 8/S link, Ken-Net and all the original software and docs. The Nova 2 has a graphics interface and IC tester, Kennedy 9800, and a diablo 42. The first memory expansion study was called "8K Interface for PDP-8S with memory protect (A study in frustration)", by John Elton McFee, 1966. BTW I wasn't BORN yet... doesn't that age me! To give you an idea.. Focal 1969 outdates me! john > >-- >Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca >Professor (780) 492-4584 >Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) >Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) >University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 13:31:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Cleaning an 11/34? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991103183020.040a3b90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 3, 99 06:33:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/a24e18b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 13:40:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 3, 99 10:42:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/2d64d7a2/attachment.ksh From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 16:33:22 1999 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Conf-Cookie:941752187-43038-1 Message-ID: <19991104223545.69229.qmail@hotmail.com> Conf-Cookie:941752187-43038-1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/96ab4a7e/attachment.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Nov 4 16:37:00 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 in Texas Message-ID: <19991104163659.A18051@mrbill.net> I'm in Austin, willing to drive most anywhere in Texas (well, within a 4-5 hour radius, which normally gets me over the Oklahoma border), and looking for a PDP-11. Preferrably something I can rackmount, but I'll consider MicroPDP- based boxes as well. I'd like to purchase the machine, or trade if the other party is interested in either a pair of RS/6000 workstations (POWERserver 530s) or some older Sun VME gear. Thanks! -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 4 16:40:18 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations Message-ID: <0.44149835.25536552@aol.com> In a message dated 11/3/99 7:49:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, schoedel@kw.igs.net writes: > > I've just been fortunate enough to obtain a pair or Xerox D-series > machines. One is a 53D (Daybreak? Dove? 6085? 1186?) and the other an > 8010. According to Xerox Workstation Spotter's Guide The 53D is the Dove or 6085 The 8010 is the Dandelion or T22 & K91 I have had several 53Ds and T22s so I can verify those numbers. I had some 8010s with a different number but I am not sure it was K91. It seems to me that it was different, but this was 7 years ago. I wish I had kept one of the Dandelions. This was one of my favorite machines. Paxton From rberryman at lucent.com Thu Nov 4 16:52:14 1999 From: rberryman at lucent.com (Berryman, Richard N (Richard)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Mitsubishi MP286L Message-ID: I saw your question about getting into the set up of the MP286L and have a similar problem, did you ever get an answer as to how to get into the setup? I picked up one for $5 at a garage sell and the internal battery is dead so the setting didn't save. It boots from the floppy and I want to check the hard drive before I spend any money replacing the CPU battery, any help would appreciated. Richard N. Berryman RTS III rberryman@lucent.com 1111 Freeport Parkway Cube 2E-370-F Coppell, Texas 75019 Direct # (972) 745-5699 Pager # (800) 401-3011 TampaBay Ext # 74558 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 4 17:09:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Conf-Cookie:941752187-43038-1 In-Reply-To: <19991104223545.69229.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Nov 4, 99 05:33:22 pm Message-ID: <199911042309.PAA20922@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 69 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/4a0b61e6/attachment.ksh From KFergason at aol.com Thu Nov 4 17:12:19 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Conf-Cookie:941752187-43038-1 Message-ID: <0.b4667363.25536cd3@aol.com> What, you didn't get the cookie? It was good! hmmm, cookies..... (best homer voice) In a message dated 11/4/99 5:10:23 PM Central Standard Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > OK, someone mind explaining what the **** this was about? > > Zane > From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 4 17:14:06 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff Message-ID: <0.89d43ec5.25536d3e@aol.com> UPS Hundredweight is a cheaper way of shipping 100 pound + packages. UPS will also ship up to 150 pounds I believe. Packaging is very important in shipping. There should be little open space. I use large bubble wrap and buy it in bulk at a packaging supply wholesaler. Anything that could be shaken apart should be taken apart and wrapped separately. For heavy items use at least two layers of large bubble wrap. The box is important also. Most boxes have weight ratings, often printed on them. For loads over 100 pounds usually you should use a double weight box with two layers of cardboard. Use good tape. If you have a Federal Express account they will ship pallet weight loads in their economy rates. Contact them. Heavier loads often get strapped to a pallet. I recommend wrapping the item in many layers of cardboard and then use stretch wrap to contain the package, including the top. If the item is on wheels block it up with wood so the load is off the wheels. Use a good strapping machine. The bands need to be tight. Consider support in all three dimensions. In strapping to a pallet consider where the forks go. You don't want the forks of the forklift cutting the straps. Check the business around you. If they do regular freight shipments they might have a significant discount with an LTL shipper. I used to ship with a place that sold bearings. They had a 50% discount. This can make it affordable. If you have several full height cabinets call freight forwarders for partial truck loads. This is sold by a combination of floor space and weight. You may not need to palletize the cabinets. If you have a valuable item it can be shipped in an air ride trailer. I have shipped several older disk drives and some fab equipment by this method. We just rolled it on, they threw a blanket over it and tied it to the wall. This was the easiest for me and the costliest for the buyer. However it got through with no problems. Good luck Paxton PS If you have specific questions about specific equipment contact me off the list. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 4 17:29:41 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Conf-Cookie:941752187-43038-1 In-Reply-To: <199911042309.PAA20922@shell2.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 4, 99 03:09:33 pm Message-ID: <199911042329.PAA22557@saul7.u.washington.edu> > OK, someone mind explaining what the **** this was about? Jason is a new subscriber (I just e-mailed him about how to subscribe). When you try to subscribe, the software sends you a confirmation message which you have to send back. He obviously sent the confirmation message to the wrong place. I'll e-mail him. -- Derek From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 4 17:30:26 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! References: <001001bf270b$2208f880$462ea497@compaq> Message-ID: <00cd01bf271c$93f15ee0$80701fd1@jrkeysppt> Do they still have that first Saturday sale each month ? I never got to there to see it but was told you pay almost any can of computer item made during the one day sale. ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 3:25 PM Subject: Re: New Collector in Need of Help! > I live around the Dallas/Fort Worth area. How far I am willing to travel > depends on the system. Probably a few hours, say 3 or 4. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ford > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 5:16 AM > Subject: Re: New Collector in Need of Help! > > > >> I am kind of new to the collecting game. I am in need of some > >>help. I need someone to tell me where I can find older and larger > >>computers. I have a lot of micros, but now I am looking for bigger game. > >>I have decided to focus my collection on older mainframes and > >>minicomputers. Can anyone point me to sources? I found a local business > >>that has older and larger computers, but the > > > >To be of any use we would need to know what area you are willing to travel > >to to pick up stuff. > > > > > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 4 17:31:37 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Conf-Cookie:941752187-43038-1 In-Reply-To: <199911042329.PAA22557@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Nov 4, 99 03:29:41 pm Message-ID: <199911042331.PAA25619@saul7.u.washington.edu> Following up to myself... > Jason is a new subscriber (I just e-mailed him about how to subscribe). Actually I didn't e-mail him (that was someone else) but the explanation is still the same. -- Derek From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 4 17:44:58 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Mitsubishi MP286L Message-ID: <0.685299aa.2553747a@aol.com> In a message dated 11/4/99 5:53:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, rberryman@lucent.com writes: > I saw your question about getting into the set up of the MP286L and have a > similar problem, did you ever get an answer as to how to get into the setup? > I picked up one for $5 at a garage sell and the internal battery is dead so > the setting didn't save. It boots from the floppy and I want to check the > hard drive before I spend any money replacing the CPU battery, any help > would appreciated. > never got an answer, but i did find a generic setup program called gsetup31.exe that let me set the cmos parameters. unfortunately, i think the hard drive is dead in mine. if you cannot locate the program LMK and i will send it to you. DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Nov 4 16:13:41 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff Message-ID: <02c201bf271f$222bd2b0$d252e780@tower166.office> I made arrangements with a national trucking company. If you get set up with a business account (takes several days) you can get 50+% off the normal tariff rates. Dan -----Original Message----- From: George Currie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 3:46 PM Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > 100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it through ups are you just guaranteeing it'll get banged up? What alternative, relatively inexpensive methods are available? George From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Nov 4 12:52:15 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Update: Schottky diode In-Reply-To: <99110321585075@antinode.org> Message-ID: <199911042352.SAA18818@admin.cgocable.net> I just threw together that condcuivity tester and diode checker: All are in series: Pair of quick clips (those push-release to hook on something) I saved 2 dollars by cutting pair of clip jumpers and use the halves. 60mA 6V lamp and 6V battery and all that bits. The schottky diode DUT worked one way that lamp lights not else. The resistance ranges on my DMM is lying especially on those schottky diodes. Sheesh! I half-expected to blame bad diodes. What is your comments now that I have new results turned out this time? I have to borrow another DMM to scope out my DMM's resistance ranges, so keep everybody updated. Wizard From wsmith at gj.com Thu Nov 4 18:00:43 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff Message-ID: FedEx 3-days service or FedEx freight is more expensive than UPS, but they take much better care of your stuff. I recently shipped my IBM 5100 cross-country by UPS and had bad results. I heavily wrapped the unit in bubble wrap, put it in a 275 lb test large box full of styrofoam popcorn, and then put that box in a larger 275 lb test box full of styrofoam popcorn. It arrived badly banged up, and half the cards had fallen out of the backplane. >>> "George Currie" 11/04 12:39 PM >>> What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > 100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it through ups are you just guaranteeing it'll get banged up? What alternative, relatively inexpensive methods are available? George From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Nov 4 18:17:07 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:40pm +0000 1999/11/04, Tony Duell wrote: >Is this the white tower case, a little larger than the Daybreak? If so, >there's a pile of fuses inside, some of them on the 'frontpanel' board, >others in the PSU, etc. Check them. IIRC one of the fuses seems to blow >for no good reason and causes exactly this problem. Thank you! There is a row of five fuses behind the right panel, between the floppy and hard drives. I had initially just looked at them, and they looked fine, but on testing, the frontmost of them (1/4A) was indeed open. Once I replaced it, on powering up, the LEDs cycled rapidly for a few seconds and then returned to 0000 -- and the fuse was open. I tried twice more, and in both cases the fuse blew instantly upon plugging in the machine (with the power switch still off). The I (probably foolishly) put in a 1A fuse and watched it glow orange for a quarter second before I disconnected. I'll most likely have to set this machine aside until I have the time and knowledge to attack it properly. >Did you lock the disk heads before moving the machine and unlock them >afterwards? Worth checking... It had been moved before I got it, so there is still the possibility of disk damage, but I'm not that far yet. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 18:15:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Update: Schottky diode In-Reply-To: <199911042352.SAA18818@admin.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Nov 4, 99 06:52:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2134 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991105/9e921508/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 4 18:25:17 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: DECStation 5000/240 how to open? Message-ID: <4.1.19991104160342.043df120@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, so its not classic but it was sitting under the Sun Shoebox I bid on so they made me take it. (And a DECStation 3100 which I thought at first was a VAX but alas, it was a mipper-doodle.) Two questions: 1) How do you open the 5000? I unscrewed the big knurled screw in the back/middle of the case but it is still stuck together like ants on honey. 2) The 3100 is stuffed with RAM, but I'm not sure what kind of RAM. Are the 3100 (and 5000) simms "standard?" (ie could I put them in a PC to get a size number, or better yet is there a number->size translation somewhere?) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 4 18:29:38 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: DECStation 5000/240 how to open? References: <4.1.19991104160342.043df120@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <99110419305001.18339@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > 1) How do you open the 5000? I unscrewed the big knurled screw > in the back/middle of the case but it is still stuck together > like ants on honey. It's just stuck. Give it some elbow grease...pull the top cover toward the front of the machine. > 2) The 3100 is stuffed with RAM, but I'm not sure what kind of > RAM. Are the 3100 (and 5000) simms "standard?" (ie could I > put them in a PC to get a size number, or better yet is there > a number->size translation somewhere?) 80-pin 2mb or 8mb SIMMs, proprietary. I don't have part numbers handy at the moment, though... -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 18:36:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 4, 99 07:17:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991105/ecba6d3a/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 4 20:27:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: <19991104.091733.212.7.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991104202707.4ef7c066@mailhost.intellistar.net> Ok I missed part of this thread but I'll stick my neck out and make a couple of comments. At 09:16 AM 11/4/99 -0600, you wrote: > >I think the caveat is that it needs to be INITIALIZE'd before >use. > Yes, all tapes must be formatted before use in the HP drives. Even the "pre-formatted" ones from HP. Why? Because not all the HP systems use the same block size, number of directory entries, etc. The same applies to their floppy and hard drives. When HP says "pre-formatted" they only mean the low level formating, similar to what a low level format does on a disk drive. In both cases, YOU still have to do the high level formatting. > >Jeff > > >On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:49:48 -0500 (EST) John Ruschmeyer > writes: >> > >> > John: >> > >> > Have you actually tried this? >> >> Back when we were using 9144's, we used to do it all the time. >> >> > The reason I'm asking is that on the Imation web site, they have a >> >> > compatibility chart, and the HP 9144 is listed as having 'NONE': >> > >> > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9134A NONE What? A 9134 is a hard disk drive. It's a 9133 without the floppy drive. >> > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9142A, HP9144A/M NONE OK these two are different. The 9142 can format it's own tapes, at least on some systems. Some systems don't have the format command. The 9144 is very different from the 9142. It is a higher desity and reguires "pre-formatted" tapes. These tapes all say "9144 compatible". If they don't that then they won't work. PERIOD! I've trying dozens of other tapes and NONE of them worked. >> > HEWLETT-PACKARD, HP9145A NONE The 9145 is similar to a 9144 but uses 32 tracks instead of 16. It also requires "pre-formatted" tapes. I suppose they say "9145 compatible" but I don't know because I've never seen one. I have four of these drives but can't find tapes for them. They will read but not write to a 9144 tape. The HP tapes were (are?) made by 3M. I suppose 3M or someone else may make tapes for the 9144/9145 but if they do, I'm not aware of it. For what It's Worth. HP also made tape/hard drive combination units. The HP 7946 is one of them and is found frequently. I think the tape drives in them are the same as the 9142. So they should be able to format and use a standard tape. IF your system has the format command. >> > >> > Although IOTAMAT format tapes are listed elsewhere on the table >> at: >> > >> > http://www2.imation.com/dsp/cmptblty/dc_drv.html >> > >> > Could it be that Imation is hiding HP's 'dirty little secret'? What "dirty little secret" ? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 4 20:39:18 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: HP 9144A, other stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19991104092041.2337b8a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991104203918.3fb70f5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:59 AM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Any hints on how the tape might come out? Yes, plug it in, turn it on, press UNLOAD and wait. Then wait some more! They take a long time to rewind. You can remove the tape when the BUSY light goes out. Then press the big button in the middle. Probably about ten minutes. When you take out the tape, check the drive wheel on it and see if there is any goo on it. If there is then the drive wheel in the 9145 is shot and you might as well pass on it unless you feel like experimenting. Most 9144s are ok but about 30% aren't. > >BTW if it makes you feel any worse one of the guys told me while I was >looking at it that they already pitched a box of tapes for it. ;( Wonderfull! You made my day. :-/ Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 4 20:42:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff In-Reply-To: References: <000a01bf2702$721ec420$6377e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991104204212.3d579134@mailhost.intellistar.net> Gearge, It should go by truck. It wouldn't stand a change with UPS! Try to find someone that's willing to ship it for you that has an account with a trucking compnay. They often get deep discounts. Joe At 02:39 PM 11/4/99 -0600, you wrote: >What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > >100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it >through ups are you just guaranteeing it'll get banged up? What >alternative, relatively inexpensive methods are available? > >George > From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Nov 4 18:55:02 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! In-Reply-To: <00cd01bf271c$93f15ee0$80701fd1@jrkeysppt> References: <001001bf270b$2208f880$462ea497@compaq> <00cd01bf271c$93f15ee0$80701fd1@jrkeysppt> Message-ID: <19991104185502.A19443@mrbill.net> On Thu, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:30:26PM -0600, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Do they still have that first Saturday sale each month ? I never got to > there to see it but was told you pay almost any can of computer item made > during the one day sale. Yeah, but its mostly peecee junk nowdays. 8-( Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 4 21:12:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991104211259.481f3a38@mailhost.intellistar.net> Wayne, I'm sorry to hear about your 5100. I have one that I need to ship to another list member and I'm very concerned about the treatment that it gets. Sounds like you did everything that you could to protect it. Do you have any other suggestions other than using someone other than UPS? Did you file a claim with UPS? What were the results? Joe At 04:00 PM 11/4/99 -0800, you wrote: >FedEx 3-days service or FedEx freight is more expensive than UPS, but they take much better care of your stuff. I recently shipped my IBM 5100 cross-country by UPS and had bad results. I heavily wrapped the unit in bubble wrap, put it in a 275 lb test large box full of styrofoam popcorn, and then put that box in a larger 275 lb test box full of styrofoam popcorn. It arrived badly banged up, and half the cards had fallen out of the backplane. > >>>> "George Currie" 11/04 12:39 PM >>> >What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > >100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it >through ups are you just guaranteeing it'll get banged up? What >alternative, relatively inexpensive methods are available? > >George > > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Nov 4 20:20:38 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: <0.44149835.25536552@aol.com> References: <0.44149835.25536552@aol.com> Message-ID: On 1999/11/04 at 5:40pm -0500, wrote: >I have had several 53Ds and T22s so I can verify those numbers. I had some >8010s with a different number but I am not sure it was K91. It seems to me >that it was different, but this was 7 years ago. This one has T22F on a serial number plate; there are no other obvious markings. On 1999/11/04 at 7:40pm +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >Yes, I think most D-machines do, as did the somewhat related PERQ >machines (which I know rather more about). This is a really fun feature >IMHO (I _like_ writing microcode, OK :-)), and is one reason why I >collect such machines. Yes; more interesting than the processors I see people building now. The only device that I know much about *and* that is user-programmable is the TAAC-1 graphics board for the Sun-3. I've never actually *seen* one, but I once worked on a compiler for it. >I'm looking for this as well. Actually I'm looking for any technical info >on the Daybreak (== anything that _I_ can't work out in 10 minutes of >looking at the machine :-)). I suspect you could work out more in 10 minutes than I could in 10 days. In 10 minutes I could *probably* find the power switch -- if it's not behind a door. There appears to be some information on Al Kossow's site (http://www.spies.com/aek/) in PDF form; I haven't looked at any of it yet. >I can teach you PERQ microcode, but although there are similarities, it's >not going to help that much. I think I have read something -- a series of Usenet posts? -- that you wrote about the PERQ. They don't seem to be at all common here; on the other hand, I didn't expect to come across the Xerox machines either. On 1999/11/05 at 12:36am +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >I suppose you could also trace what the fuse is connected to... One side is straight on the line; the other is connected to a small transformer on the fuse board. The secondaries lead to the front panel.... -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Nov 4 21:13:42 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991104221342.00954100@127.0.0.1> I have a simple question (and --eek-- on-topic! ;-) I know the superuser ID for Unix/Linux/OS-9 is 0, what I was wondering is what is the superuser ID for VMS, M/PM or any other classic multiuser systems... it's for a trivia question I do on my weekly radio program. Thanks for any help, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 4 21:32:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:22 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991104221342.00954100@127.0.0.1> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 4, 99 10:13:42 pm Message-ID: <199911050332.TAA21263@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991104/7e69524c/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Nov 4 21:51:12 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: <199911050332.TAA21263@shell2.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19991104221342.00954100@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991104225112.00a22540@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >Are you talking UID, or login name? Not even sure some of them have >anything other than a login name. Login Name, UID, that's fine. Just kind-of wondering how different systems dealt with superuser ID's/Login Names, and I made a trivia question out of Unix's superuser UID for it. I was on the topic, so I thought I'd try to find a few trivia facts about other classic OS's. Yes, it was an open-ended question, and while I might have worded it a bit confusing (sorry about that,) I did want it somewhat broad and vague. >OpenVMS: >Username: SYSTEM Owner: SYSTEM MANAGER >Account: SYSTEM UIC: [1,4] ([SYSTEM]) > >However, under OpenVMS it's possible to set up another account so it's >effectivally the SYSTEM account. > >At least some Harris Mini's used 'SuperVulcan', I always thought that cool. Thanks, and that is really cool! >The key word is that a lot of OS's aren't as stupid about security as UNIX >tends to be. Having just installed FrontPage 2000 on WinNT, *nix is looking a *lot* better about security right about now... ;-) [[ Of course, with OS-9 you don't log in if you're at the console. It's assumed that since you knew how to boot the box, you were automatically the superuser. I once tried (and moderatly succeeded) to write a program to change the userID of the console login on the fly (thru Basic-09), mainly so Rogue wouldn't overwrite the saved files. *Yes*, I did know how to attr the file for read-only, but this was one of those "just how crazy can I get about this and still have it work" exercises. :-) Learned a lot about OS-9 system calls, which was the main point. ]] Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 4 08:36:17 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: OT: TANSTAAFL (was: VMS architects) In-Reply-To: <199911030802.AAA09035@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Megan wrote: >Sorry... the Nivenisms are: > > TANJ - "There Ain't No Justice" > TANSTAAFL - "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" I haven't got my copy around, but I'm pretty sure TANSTAAFL appeared prominently in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein. Maybe 1969? Anybody got a copy? It may have appeared in a Niven reference earlier, I don't know. - Mark From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 4 22:25:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff Message-ID: <199911050425.XAA23978@world.std.com> I don't know. Where is/was it? >Do they still have that first Saturday sale each month ? I never got to >there to see it but was told you pay almost any can of computer item made >during the one day sale. From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Thu Nov 4 22:42:04 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Some articles on VCF 3.0 Message-ID: Here are some articles on VCF 3.0 in case anyone is interested. http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/columns/dispatches/docs/mc093099b.htm http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,31638,00.html http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/technology/archive/1999/10/07/vintage.dtl I apologize for the lack of activity on the VCF website. I'm hoping to have it updated with pictures from the event (including the exhibits) before the end of the year :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From mbg at world.std.com Thu Nov 4 22:51:50 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Cleaning an 11/34? Message-ID: <199911050451.XAA06488@world.std.com> >> 1) Pull the boards and grants (noting location) > >Good first step. I would suggest vacuuming as much as possible before even pulling the boards -- especially the deteriorating foam... try to orient the box such that any foam which breaks off while you're doing this doesn't fall into the backplane... Once the boards are out, then vacuum directly over the slots, spending lots of time, and make sure you have good suction. [... section on cleaning PSU removed ...] Sounds sound... >I've never needed to go any further, but by doing the above you can >_really_ clean up the machine. It sounds a long job, but it takes me <30 >minutes to do all the above. > 3) Washing the boards, (except for core mats) Vacuum the boards (and/or blow them off with the dust-off... I'll admit to being leary of putting boards in the dishwasher the way Allison does, but it works for her, and she definitely knows more than I about the electronics... so ... > 5) Install enough boards to get ODT to talk to me > and then work it one set at a time until I can > boot from the TU-60. Sounds good.. One problem is that you have to keep in mind the slots which might need the CA1-CB1 jumper installed if you don't have boards in it... otherwise you may get bus errors... I would also think about a PSU power-on test with no backplanes attached, then with backplanes attached, then with Unibus jumpers, etc... I don't know if the PSU can handle a no-load condition, though -- Allison, Tony or Tim.S might be able to answer that better. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 4 23:58:40 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday - bandwidth saver - many messages inside In-Reply-To: <19991104200337.11736.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- Mike Ford wrote: >> >More Paper tape software - A lot of old DECUS stuff for the 8/s (old dice >> >game, 5,5/8,8), etc.. Two trays of Disk Monitor and PAL III-D. I STILL NEED >> >MANY MORE PAPER TAPE TRAYS! >> >> I have two trays, blue things with a clear top and 8 sections about 1x1 >> inch, 4 or 5 of said sections complete with papertape still in them. $1 & >> postage to the first who wants them. > >Ooh... ooh... I'm interested (if you don't want to ship them to Canada). >What's on the paper tape? I'm about to have a serial papertape reader Claimed, as you might have guessed, and soon on the way to the great white north. ;) One of the tapes says something about a diagnostic, but thats just a guess. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 5 00:09:01 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff In-Reply-To: References: <000a01bf2702$721ec420$6377e2d1@default> Message-ID: >What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > >100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. If you send it I am sure others will have better answers, but I will toss out a few. Find someone to haul it for you, or do it yourself. I would "meet" someone in Arizona before shipping 100 lbs to Texas. Greyhound, yes the bus, they take stuff all the time, but prices may not suit all types of stuff. UPS "century" this is the heavy side of UPS and may only be available to business users. Make a cash deal with a trucker. One of my friends just did this, drove to the warehouse district and asked around telling people what he needed and when, then pulled out the cash. Less than $500 for a 40 foot trailer load going from central CA to Orange county. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 5 00:21:31 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! In-Reply-To: <00cd01bf271c$93f15ee0$80701fd1@jrkeysppt> References: <001001bf270b$2208f880$462ea497@compaq> Message-ID: >Do they still have that first Saturday sale each month ? I never got to >there to see it but was told you pay almost any can of computer item made >during the one day sale. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 5 00:32:54 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff In-Reply-To: <199911050425.XAA23978@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Several errors are often made. BUBBLE DOES NOT WORK. Ok why? Most people >put one or two layers of the large bubbles around an item and wedge it into One of my favorite cartoons shows a guy tossing boxes off the back of a truck with FRAGILE on them in huge red letters. Caption is "Hey Larry, what does Fra-gee-lay mean?" From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 5 00:46:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991104225112.00a22540@127.0.0.1> References: <199911050332.TAA21263@shell2.aracnet.com> <3.0.1.32.19991104221342.00954100@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: >better about security right about now... ;-) [[ Of course, with OS-9 you >don't log in if you're at the console. It's assumed that since you knew how >to boot the box, you were automatically the superuser. I once tried (and OK, here is a bit of off-topic superuser trivia that most people won't know. The first three releases of Linux automatically booted into root. There was no login, although it was possible, at least under 0.12 to add one. Also these first three releases were 0.10, 0.11, and 0.12. The fourth was 0.95 which resulted in some VERY wierd version numbers after it became apparent that kernel wasn't as close to 1.0 as Linus thought. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 07:16:36 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: expanding PDP-8 memory (was Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday) Message-ID: <19991105131636.27279.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > >--- Mike Ford wrote: > >> >More Paper tape software... > > If the paper tapes have anything PDP 8 on them I can send you a copy. I have > the PDP-8/S already hooked up to my PC (positive level converters ;-) ) Great. > One other thing.... you mentioned you wanted to add more memory to one of > your straight 8s. Not quite. I have no interest in adding more memory to the Straight 8s. I was contemplating either replacing a core stack in an -8/L with battery- backed CMOS static RAM to free up a core stack for my -8/i, or adding 28K of CMOS static RAM to the -8/i. This is all to be able to run OS/8. I know the Disk Monitor will run in 4K. > I have two studies done by the McMaster University on > building core memory expanders for the 8,8/s using straight 8 memory (8/s,8 > used the same kinds) and some flip chips. Interesting. > You might want to kill one of your straight 8s for the memory... > A straight-8 still isn't worth as much whole as it is in parts.. Ugh.. I'm not completely convinced about that. I might be, but as the "first 8", there's a certain aura that goes with it. > You might want to think about doing that as it is nice to keep the same > boards/technology in a transistor computer like that. I have every interest in keeping the technology "pure". It's the M-series -8s that I'm considering polluting with modern parts. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 07:19:19 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday Message-ID: <19991105131919.27045.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > >What's the -8/I switch? > Depending on the DF32, I have found two transistor versions. One with a > rotary switch on the right side of the front and one without. The switch > allowed you to select "PDP 8, 8/S, 8/I". I don't think I have that switch on my drives. You have schematics? Do you know what that switch affects? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jrice at texoma.net Fri Nov 5 07:30:36 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! References: <001a01bf2747$a27b15c0$452da497@compaq> Message-ID: <3822DBFC.FAD35AE1@texoma.net> The First Saturday Sale is located east of downtown Dallas on Ross St near the Atts district and bordered by Central Expressway (US75 and I45). Best bargains are found before sunrise so bring your flashlight. It is a mix of junk and treasure, old and new. i'm not into large systems but have seen some DEC items and some older IBM stuff there on occasion. Owen Robertson wrote: > > I don't know. Where is/was it? > > >Do they still have that first Saturday sale each month ? I never got to > >there to see it but was told you pay almost any can of computer item made > >during the one day sale. -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 5 07:32:00 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday Message-ID: <001101bf2792$24130d00$ee72e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 8:20 AM Subject: Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday >--- John B wrote: >> >What's the -8/I switch? > >> Depending on the DF32, I have found two transistor versions. One with a >> rotary switch on the right side of the front and one without. The switch >> allowed you to select "PDP 8, 8/S, 8/I". > >I don't think I have that switch on my drives. You have schematics? Do you >know what that switch affects? Yes I do for that model, in fact (as of tomorrow morning) I will have schematics and maintenance documents for every DF32 version ever made... including more DF32s, and a ton of more PDP 8 stuff (will update)... and... I believe I am VERY lucky to have a wife and children that don't mind co-existing with such hardware (it is in its own room)! I can answer your question when you tell me: What kind of modules are in your DF32 - purple M series with "G", or read "R" series with "G". john > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 5 08:24:16 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: expanding PDP-8 memory (was Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday) Message-ID: <001601bf2799$718e6460$ee72e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 8:17 AM Subject: expanding PDP-8 memory (was Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday) >--- John B wrote: >> >--- Mike Ford wrote: >> >> >More Paper tape software... >> >> If the paper tapes have anything PDP 8 on them I can send you a copy. I have >> the PDP-8/S already hooked up to my PC (positive level converters ;-) ) > >Great. > >> One other thing.... you mentioned you wanted to add more memory to one of >> your straight 8s. > >Not quite. I have no interest in adding more memory to the Straight 8s. I >was contemplating either replacing a core stack in an -8/L with battery- >backed CMOS static RAM to free up a core stack for my -8/i, or adding 28K of >CMOS static RAM to the -8/i. This is all to be able to run OS/8. I know >the Disk Monitor will run in 4K. Okay... > >> I have two studies done by the McMaster University on >> building core memory expanders for the 8,8/s using straight 8 memory (8/s,8 >> used the same kinds) and some flip chips. > >Interesting. > Very.. very nice.. makes it easy to ad memory. I also got a copy of the 8K RIM loader and 8K binary loader. >> You might want to kill one of your straight 8s for the memory... > >> A straight-8 still isn't worth as much whole as it is in parts.. Ugh.. > >I'm not completely convinced about that. I might be, but as the "first 8", >there's a certain aura that goes with it. > I do appreciate what you are saying about "aura". Some people like to own the first. I have a population problem and have owned too many "firsts" including univac stuff. But, one the Straight 8 stuff - one sold on ebay this spring, complete untested for $1400 (but in great cosmetic condition) on eBay... they are getting more for Altairs :-(. I am picking up at least one over the next three weeks in MINT condition and I have a friend that wants one bad (I won't part with my 8/s) so I will sell it to him around $1000. The first PDP 8 was made for many years as DEC had problems with memory on the 8I. I have scrapped quite a few 8s (I am sure rack straight 8s as I have found front panel PCBs in my storage for them) over the years as I at the time I did not like 12 bit computers at all. (here is where I know large rocks will be thrown at me - I'm ready.. ;-)) A straight 8 in pieces is worth a lot more. You can sell the front panel on eBay for at least $250. Then, toss the core memory out of it for souvenirs and get an easy $500 - even maybe sell it to someone who needs it. You then could get a few hundred for the chassis (if its table top) from someone on eBay who wants to convert a rack mount unit. Sell the flip chips away or keep them as spares and you are way head of the standard $1400 for an 8. Original documents command good $$ too on eBay. A lot of folks have straight 8s which seems to be keeping the prices down.. it would not surprise me if there was a few hundred in the States alone as there are 8 "mint" running units in Australia! Abundance of a model dictates it's value.. ie: A LINC-8 and a PDP-8/S exists in very low numbers and fetch a lot more $$$. I've been talking to some folks on here about the $$ of old machines to get an idea of what "deep pockets" and collectors value the machines at.. and have found that I still can't get much for a Straight-8... But HEADS-UP - Some of these old ultra-rare minis are commanding some serious $$$. I was offered $12,000 and $15000 (this one wants to make another offer) for my 8/S (running) with docs and software in mint condition. I refused both offers (these were two eBay deep pockets that found me by looking at my "About Me" page.). I don't know what a LINC-8 in mint condition running is worth but probably more.... Another HEADS-UP - Honeywell 316s - Not whole but in parts. One of my 316s was carted to the dump this spring but spares for the machine are fetching big $$$ from those who want to hang up on their wall a piece of "ARPANET". The core memory gets at least $1000 CAD for the set and CPU boards/micropacs are fetching at least $60 US EACH!. Front Panel - no idea but probably a couple hundred. You can't get $4000US for a 316 whole but you can if you kill it. In my defense for such actions I do have/had "population" problems with some mini models.. The IBM 1130 took up the entire first floor of my parents home (it had every accessory), it was scrapped. I had 16 large racks of 316/ARPANET type stuf,Singers, Olivettes, etc... There is only so much one person can handle and "funding" is required for new loads of minis. >> You might want to think about doing that as it is nice to keep the same >> boards/technology in a transistor computer like that. > >I have every interest in keeping the technology "pure". It's the M-series >-8s that I'm considering polluting with modern parts. That's good. I like to keep transistor computers all transistors and tube computers all tubes... > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 08:43:44 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday Message-ID: <19991105144344.6932.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > >> >What's the -8/I switch? > I believe I am VERY lucky to have a wife and children that don't mind > co-existing with such hardware (it is in its own room)! I ended up buying a farm with a 30'x50' quonset hut, but for more reasons than just the collection. If all goes well, I'll be breaking ground for a purpose- built edifice for the collection in the spring. > I can answer your question when you tell me: > > What kind of modules are in your DF32 - purple M series with "G", or read > "R" series with "G". No M. R. On all drives, masters and slaves. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 5 10:37:02 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: HP 9144 tapes Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991105103702.488f119a@mailhost.intellistar.net> I went and looked up the HP part number for the 9144 tapes. It's "HP 88140LC" for the 65 Mb ones and "HP 88140SC" for the 15 Mb ones. Joe From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 5 09:02:53 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday Message-ID: <002801bf279e$d5e47b20$ee72e2d1@default> Okay, I have the same drive(s-this weekend). The switch allows you to select one of three computers the drive will be used on: Straight 8 PDP-8/S PDP-8I the switch controls bus lines, (and selectors diode or resistor) logic for: pcl - straight 8 init - for 8i certain bus signals for 8/8s/8i, and other things I am finding in the schematic (mentioned changes between 8,8I,8/s). I haven't read the whole book yet as I have been inundated with documentation again... and my pick up this weekend will make my current document set look like a pamphlet. Do you have schematics? Contact me off the list. P.S. They did not put this switch on early model DF32s as only the 8,8/S was around. I am getting a newer drive that has the 8I switch (more changes). Does anyone know if digital fixed the head crashing problem with the DF32-D, or -F? Thanks john -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Finally got a "straight" DF32 yesterday >--- John B wrote: >> >> >What's the -8/I switch? > >> I believe I am VERY lucky to have a wife and children that don't mind >> co-existing with such hardware (it is in its own room)! > >I ended up buying a farm with a 30'x50' quonset hut, but for more reasons than >just the collection. If all goes well, I'll be breaking ground for a purpose- >built edifice for the collection in the spring. > >> I can answer your question when you tell me: >> >> What kind of modules are in your DF32 - purple M series with "G", or read >> "R" series with "G". > >No M. R. On all drives, masters and slaves. > >-ethan > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From lance at costanzo.net Fri Nov 5 09:37:02 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991105073653.00724660@costanzo.net> HP-3000 MANAGER.SYS or any account with capabilities of SM (system manager) OP (operator) NM (network manager) CV (create volume) PM (priv mode) Each capability enables different commands. There's about 20 other caps, but these are the basic ones for system management. ITF "OPRTR" which was usually aliased to something else Anybody ever use this? It was an interactive timesharing system running on IBM 360/370 systems in the early 70's. It had BASIC and PL/1. Pretty cool for its time. The rest of this is based on my rapidly eroding memory banks: RSTS/E [1,1] was the system (you couldn't really use it) [1,2] was the "system admin" [1,*] were privilged accounts ITS "1000" account users. This was a timesharing system running on CDC equipment at the California State University campuses in the mid/early 70's. NOS ******** (8 asterisks) This was the "upgraded" timesharing system running on CDC equipment (6000's??) at the CSU campuses in the mid/late 70's. Lance Costanzo | Speaker to Animals lance@costanzo.net | speaker@kzin.com http://www.webhighrise.com | http://www.kzin.com Website and Virtual Domain | PC Resources, Hosting starting at $5/month, | Accoutrements, no setup fees | and other oddities. From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Nov 5 11:03:56 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's References: <199911050332.TAA21263@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <38230DFC.1182E467@banet.net> As memory (dimly) serves me, under VMS, any userid with "SETPRV" capabilities would do it. There were some other priviledges, that, if carelessly granted, could enable a user to gain control of a system. IIRC, SYSNAM was one of them. Will "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I have a simple question (and --eek-- on-topic! ;-) > > > > I know the superuser ID for Unix/Linux/OS-9 is 0, what I was wondering is > > what is the superuser ID for VMS, M/PM or any other classic multiuser > > systems... it's for a trivia question I do on my weekly radio program. > > > > Thanks for any help, > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > Are you talking UID, or login name? Not even sure some of them have > anything other than a login name. > > OpenVMS: > Username: SYSTEM Owner: SYSTEM MANAGER > Account: SYSTEM UIC: [1,4] ([SYSTEM]) > > However, under OpenVMS it's possible to set up another account so it's > effectivally the SYSTEM account. > > At least some Harris Mini's used 'SuperVulcan', I always thought that cool. > > Isn't RSX-11M [1,54] for SYSTEM? > > IIRC there wasn't a "superuser" under GCOS-8 (on a Honeywell DPS-8, etc.), > you just had superuser permissions. I assume the same was true under > GCOS-6, but I barely had a chance to use the DPS-6's. > > The key word is that a lot of OS's aren't as stupid about security as UNIX > tends to be. > > Zane From rickb at bensene.com Fri Nov 5 11:02:03 1999 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991105073653.00724660@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <009901bf27af$7c2c47a0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> HP 2000 TimeShare Systems: A000 (zeroes, not oh's) was the "Operator" account ID that had special priviliges. Just my $.02 Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 5 11:24:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: <38230DFC.1182E467@banet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 1999 wpe101@banet.net wrote: > As memory (dimly) serves me, under VMS, any userid with "SETPRV" capabilities > would do it. There were some other priviledges, that, if carelessly granted, > could enable > a user to gain control of a system. IIRC, SYSNAM was one of them. This is very true. VMS is not lax on granting prives but system managers can be. I found it handy to enable a limited set of prives for a SYSMAINT user that was nearly SYSTEM but not quite. FIELD was another default account that often had high privs. In any case it is a very flexible scheme. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 5 12:30:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: <005501bf2106$80978fc0$6481868b@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <199911051731.SAA11291@mail2.siemens.de> > >I don't think we have any true brand zealots > > in this group, but we certainly don't mind splitting a few hairs to "iron > > out" the details, and that could appear to such a person as ferver. > I'll fess up, if it ain't C= it ain't a real computer :-) They did computers ? Grins H. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 11:33:58 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's Message-ID: <19991105173358.15668.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- wpe101@banet.net wrote: > As memory (dimly) serves me, under VMS, any userid with "SETPRV" > capabilities Oh, yeah. That's the ticket! > would do it. There were some other priviledges, that, if carelessly granted, > could enable a user to gain control of a system. IIRC, SYSNAM was one of > them. My "favorites" are BYPASS and CMKRNL. BYPASS does just that: bypasses all UIC-based checking - reads, writes, deletes, etc. It's handy when you need to delete a directory tree, but it's a dangerous one to leave on by default. My typical scheme is to leave BYPASS _disabled_ for the SYSTEM account asa default priv. CMKRNL allows your process to execute a "change mode to kernel" call, which allows you to read and write physical memory. With this priv, a malicious programmer can write code to peek at the process headers of other processes on the system (like a "who" command would) or even tweak their own header bits, possibly granting themselves permissions or changing their effective user name. I used to have programs in C and FORTRAN to do all these things, but they only work on pre-VMS-5 releases (and I didn't write them; I inherited them when I took over a VAX-11/750 w/Fuji Eagle, running VMS 4.2 about 13 years ago). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 11:35:32 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail Message-ID: <19991105173532.15932.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans Franke wrote: > > I'll fess up, if it ain't C= it ain't a real computer :-) > > They did computers ? They had to put _something_ on that office furniture. ;-) -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Nov 5 11:42:30 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's References: Message-ID: <38231706.A7F3F758@banet.net> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > This is very true. VMS is not lax on granting prives but system managers > can be. I found it handy to enable a limited set of prives for a SYSMAINT > user that was nearly SYSTEM but not quite. FIELD was another default > account that often had high privs. In any case it is a very flexible > scheme. > > Allison Ah yes, default accounts.. Some system administrators used to fall victim to failing to change the default passwords that VMS shipped with, ie. Username: FIELD Password: SERVICE IIRC, wasn't there an incident a few years back (NASA?) where access to a TOPS-20 machine was gained by undesireables, using SYSTEM as the account, and MANAGER for a password? Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 5 12:04:46 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's In-Reply-To: <19991105173358.15668.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >My "favorites" are BYPASS and CMKRNL. BYPASS does just that: bypasses all >UIC-based checking - reads, writes, deletes, etc. It's handy when you need >to delete a directory tree, but it's a dangerous one to leave on by default. Default Privileges: NETMBX TMPMBX Well, with 7.2 these are it by default. I've not had any reason to modify that on my systems. I even run my own account with only these. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 13:17:44 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's Message-ID: <19991105191744.3277.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >My "favorites" are BYPASS and CMKRNL. BYPASS does just that: bypasses all > >UIC-based checking - reads, writes, deletes, etc. It's handy when you need > >to delete a directory tree, but it's a dangerous one to leave on by default. > > Default Privileges: > NETMBX TMPMBX > > Well, with 7.2 these are it by default. Default for ordinary users or default to SYSTEM? I mean I turn off BYPASS as a default priv for SYSTEM. It's _NEVER_ on for ordinary users. NB: my experiences with VMS peter out around 6.1. If SYSTEM no longer has the world of privs turned on at login, I wouldn't know about it. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 5 13:35:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: DF32 or RF08/RS08 In-Reply-To: <001101bf2792$24130d00$ee72e2d1@default> (dylanb@sympatico.ca) References: <001101bf2792$24130d00$ee72e2d1@default> Message-ID: <19991105193521.5347.qmail@brouhaha.com> With all this talk of DF32s, I'd like to mention that I'm still interested in getting a DF32 or RF08/RS08 for use with my PDP-8/I and PDP-12. If anyone knows where an extra can be found, or has one for sale or trade, please let me know. There's a partial list of stuff I have available for trade on my web page, http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ I'm also still hoping to track down a copy of TSS/8 or TSS/12. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 5 13:42:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: HP 2000 Time Shared Basic (was Re: SuperUser ID's) In-Reply-To: <009901bf27af$7c2c47a0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> (rickb@bensene.com) References: <009901bf27af$7c2c47a0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> Message-ID: <19991105194257.5414.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Rick Bensene" wrote: > HP 2000 TimeShare Systems: A000 (zeroes, not oh's) was the "Operator" > account ID that had special priviliges. And if anyone has HP 2000 manuals, software, etc. that hasn't already been made available to Jay West, Al Kossow, Jeff Moffatt, or myself for copying, please let us know. Jay's working on resurrecting a real HP 2000 system. Jeff's written a simulator for the 2100 series CPU, and I'm working on typing in the 2000C source code from scanned listings (it's way too poor print quality to OCR). I've gotten 35 pages done out of 710 for the main CPU, and then there's the program for the I/O processor. Unfortunately we don't have the 2000C loader program in either binary or source form. Thanks! Eric From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 5 14:02:02 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: DF32 or RF08/RS08 Message-ID: <000601bf27c8$a063c9e0$ee72e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 2:59 PM Subject: DF32 or RF08/RS08 >With all this talk of DF32s, I'd like to mention that I'm still interested >in getting a DF32 or RF08/RS08 for use with my PDP-8/I and PDP-12. If >anyone knows where an extra can be found, or has one for sale or trade, >please let me know. There's a partial list of stuff I have available for >trade on my web page, http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ > >I'm also still hoping to track down a copy of TSS/8 or TSS/12. I have that! I just found the manual "TSS/8 MONITOR".. there is a pile of other stuff. I am picking up a huge 8I and Lab-8 in the morning. I don't know what it is yet though (some kind of timesharing system?). I have the manual and the paper tapes.. What tapes are you looking for (I have no idea which different tapes are needed as I have too much documentation to go through right now). I can download them to my PC and get them to you. I have quite a list to send you. I think we can do some trades and some $$. john > >Cheers, >Eric > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 5 14:33:49 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: HP 9144 tapes Message-ID: <19991105.143351.211.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Joe: Hmmm. The ones I have were used as distribution media for HPUX, and aren't so marked with a part number. I dunno . . . . Jeff On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 10:37:02 Joe writes: > I went and looked up the HP part number for the 9144 tapes. It's > "HP > 88140LC" for the 65 Mb ones and "HP 88140SC" for the 15 Mb ones. > > Joe > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 13:00:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 4, 99 09:20:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991105/851930c6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 13:19:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Cleaning an 11/34? In-Reply-To: <199911050451.XAA06488@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Nov 4, 99 11:51:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 835 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991105/d4b1cd55/attachment.ksh From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Nov 5 16:23:41 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: SuperUser ID's References: <19991105191744.3277.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <382358ED.7F5C4DF3@banet.net> Another dim memory, IIRC, in AUTHORIZE, there is (were) two different privilege settings for a user id.. Authorized privileges, and default privileges. I once, when teaching myself Basic, left EXQUOTA turned on, and (due to a loop in my "errant" code") almost instantaneously, allocated every free block on the system disk of a 750, thus causing my boss (sitting in an adjacent chair) to exclaim (as the system hung!), "Whaddidja do?!?!?!".. Lesson I learned was: $ SET PROC/PRIV=NOALL $ SET PROC/PRIV=TMPMBX, NETMBX Before I tried anything like that again... Will Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >My "favorites" are BYPASS and CMKRNL. BYPASS does just that: bypasses all > > >UIC-based checking - reads, writes, deletes, etc. It's handy when you need > > >to delete a directory tree, but it's a dangerous one to leave on by default. > > > > Default Privileges: > > NETMBX TMPMBX > > > > Well, with 7.2 these are it by default. > > Default for ordinary users or default to SYSTEM? I mean I turn off BYPASS > as a default priv for SYSTEM. It's _NEVER_ on for ordinary users. NB: my > experiences with VMS peter out around 6.1. If SYSTEM no longer has the world > of privs turned on at login, I wouldn't know about it. > > -ethan > > ===== > Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. > Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Nov 5 17:19:00 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <382366080.21fa@diamond.archelon.com.archelon.com> In article , ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >[...] >The older PERQs were totally user-microprogrammable. You got the >assembler and the 'placer' with the OS distribution IIRC. And there was >some documentation in the manual. Mind you, the PERQ OS manual always >struck me as being a quick-reference guide for people who knew the system >-- a lot of information is either missing or hidden. In my (commerical) experience more often missing than hidden. Vital details noted only in the margin of a single copy of the manual, scribbled after a telephone conversation with the designer, because no one ever thought to, or had time to, document them fully. Of course some things are hidden *as well*, but at least things which are merely hidden might eventually be released. >The PERQ 3a (aka AGW3300) had a 68020 in it (:-(, not microprogrammable). >But there was a graphics processor built from 2 29116 'ALUs', one for the >data path and one to calaculate addresses. That was user >microprogrammable, although AFAIK, tools for programming it were never >available. I'm in an almost uniquely fortunate position of being able to generate usable microprogramming tools with very little effort. >> I suspect you could work out more in 10 minutes than I could in 10 days. >> In 10 minutes I could *probably* find the power switch -- if it's not >> behind a door. > >You exagerate, I think :-) Only slightly. I have a software background and while I can (in principle) understand a processor down to the gate level, I have only a very vague idea of how things work electrically. I hope to remedy that this winter. >Seriously, I'm fed up with 'technical' manuals that contain no >schematics, no pinouts, no register bit allocations, etc. That's _not_ a >technical manual! Sometimes it's even worse. Try explaining to a client that no, we really *can't* write an assembler if they want to keep the instruction encodings secret. The previously-mentioned manual for this machine appears to be an architecture manual rather than a hardware manual as such (although, since it's in the form of a set of scans, I haven't had time to read much beyond the table of contents yet), so it isn't any help for this problem. Both it and the Daybreak manual do appear to document the microinstructions, though. >> >I suppose you could also trace what the fuse is connected to... >> >> One side is straight on the line; the other is connected to a small >> transformer on the fuse board. The secondaries lead to the front panel.... > >Well, considering the 1A fuse didn't blow instantly, I would suspect a >short in the load on the secondary side of the transformer. Time to >disconnect the secondaries and see if a 0.25A fuse holds. If it does, >reconnect the secondareis one at a time until the fuse blows and then >start tracing what's shorted. It may be as simple as a shorted rectifier >or smoothing capacitor (we can always hope :-)) The secondary end doesn't appear to be shorted, and the fuse blows anyway :-( Unless I've made a mistake, things look pretty simple (where + is a connection and -|- is not): L----Fi----+---+--switch------1(| t |)5--+----fuse2---A front 120V lt | +--fuse1----+--2(| r |)6--|--+---------B panel N----er--+-|---------------|--3(| n |)7--+ | | | +--4(| s |)8-----+ other fuse1 = 1/4 A 250V fuse2 = 3/4 A 250V switch = (part of) the main power switch. trns = "DALE IPL-2329-25 105P80342 8445"; properties not marked. Fuse1 is the one that blows instantly. AB leads to the front panel only. With the power switch off, and the front panel disconnected (i.e. no load except the meter), a 1A fuse at fuse1 lasts about two seconds, during which time I measure about 15V across AB. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 18:20:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: <382366080.21fa@diamond.archelon.com.archelon.com> from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 5, 99 06:19:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6349 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991106/d4d7129b/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 5 20:18:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: HP 9144 tapes In-Reply-To: <19991105.143351.211.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991105201819.317ffdb6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jeff, The distribution ones don't have a regular tape part number only the PN of the update but they should still say "9144 compatible". They should work fine. Joe At 02:33 PM 11/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >Joe: > >Hmmm. The ones I have were used as distribution media for HPUX, >and aren't so marked with a part number. I dunno . . . . > > >Jeff > >On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 10:37:02 Joe writes: >> I went and looked up the HP part number for the 9144 tapes. It's >> "HP >> 88140LC" for the 65 Mb ones and "HP 88140SC" for the 15 Mb ones. >> >> Joe >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Nov 5 19:06:09 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLT Message-ID: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, buried under a pile of stuff was a little tiny VAX. A VAXStation 4000/VLC, what the heck is that? Can I netboot it? Cluster it? can it run headless? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 5 19:23:39 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: >Ok, buried under a pile of stuff OK, you're starting to get irritating :^) I was doing good to find some transcievers today. > was a little tiny VAX. A VAXStation 4000/VLC, Cool! They look like a nice system. Kind of like a Alpha Multia, only a they are a VAX. >what the heck is that? Well, it's better than the average VS3100, but not as good as a 4000/60. The good news is it takes more or less normal 72-pin SIMMs, IIRC, they've got to be true parity. I think they _have_ to be 4MB SIMMs though. > Can I netboot it? Yes, in fact I suspect this might have been the norm. >Cluster it? Well, you've got to be running OpenVMS and have clustering licenses installed :^) >can it run headless? Yes, or if you've got a monitor cable I think you can hook it up to a Multisync monitor, it should have a pretty decent framebuffer. There are actually 3 different models of the system, each with a slightly different framebuffer. On a OpenVMS note, I'd advise staying away from Samba 2.0.3 on OpenVMS for the time being, I just spent a lot of my free time for the last couple days trying to install it. It took me longer to FTP Samba 1.9 just now than it did to install it and have it working. On a crazy note, I'm installing Samba because you can't buy a NFS client for the Mac anymore. They've ALL vanished! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 5 20:06:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: OT: Microsoft Ruling is finally out! Message-ID: Guity! http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/msdojendgame.html I found this elsewhere, I think this sums it up nicely. "Microsoft has demonstrated that it will use its prodigious market power and immense profits to harm any firm that insists on pursuing initiatives that could intensify competition against one of Microsoft's core products," Jackson wrote in his findings. "The ultimate result is that some innovations that would truly benefit consumers never occur for the sole reason that they do not coincide with Microsoft's self-interest." Something tells me that this is going to help Caldera's case against Microsoft! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 5 20:13:52 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLC In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991105174832.00c37430@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 05:23 PM 11/5/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >OK, you're starting to get irritating :^) I was doing good to find some >transcievers today. Hey at least I'm not pulling Straight-8's out of my "misc" pile :-) [Seriously, I'll trade a fully functional VAX w/ NetBSD installed for a working straight 8 in decent condition.] >> was a little tiny VAX. A VAXStation 4000/VLC, > >Cool! They look like a nice system. Kind of like a Alpha Multia, only a >they are a VAX. The model tag says: Model #:VS48K-CA >Well, it's better than the average VS3100, but not as good as a 4000/60. >The good news is it takes more or less normal 72-pin SIMMs, IIRC, they've >got to be true parity. I think they _have_ to be 4MB SIMMs though. The ram slots are stuffed but I can't tell by inspection what kind of SIMMS they are. The chips on them are marked TMS444000 (1MB x 4) which makes me suspect they are perhaps 4MB SIMMs? That would put the memory at 24MB. >> Can I netboot it? >Yes, in fact I suspect this might have been the norm. When I opened it up I found an RZ24 nestled inside of it. So I can put a basic OS there now that Ragge has SCSI working. >>Cluster it? >Well, you've got to be running OpenVMS and have clustering licenses >installed :^) I've got most of what I need for this, does the hobbiest license include clustering licenses? >>can it run headless? >Yes, or if you've got a monitor cable I think you can hook it up to a >Multisync monitor, it should have a pretty decent framebuffer. There are >actually 3 different models of the system, each with a slightly different >framebuffer. Ok, I don't have a sync-on-green monitor nor a dec monitor cable yet. No doubt it will start calling out to nearby monitors ... :-) If I run it headless where do I plug the console? One of the MMJs? >On a OpenVMS note, I'd advise staying away from Samba 2.0.3 on OpenVMS for >the time being, I just spent a lot of my free time for the last couple days >trying to install it. It took me longer to FTP Samba 1.9 just now than it >did to install it and have it working. Thanks for that pointer! I've been using Samba as a decent solution for file sharing for now. I'm going to have to take pictures of the whole VAX family now. Unrelated: I got the 11/34 out of the rack by unscrewing the rack mounting bolts! kept the slides right on the sides. One of the guys at the warehouse used a forklift to put the tongs under the chassis so it wouldn't fall out. --Chuck From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Nov 5 20:28:48 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1999/11/06 at 12:20am +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >Well, writing microcode assemblers (and I prefer to work in assembler >rather than anything higher) is not too hard. I'll time myself once I find the encodings :-) >Then of course there's the problem of getting the machine to load the new >microcode, of getting the OS to correctly use it, etc. It's not a trivial >job, even when you can write microcode that makes sense. For the Daybreak, that might be the hardest part. I understand the 80186 loads it on boot, but how or whether one might make things happen in a running system I don't (yet:-) know. >It's a pity I can't read .pdf files.... One day I'll figure out how at >least to handle ones that are scanned images (which shouldn't be too >hard...). I think I can find a way to convert them en masse to another format. They total some 65M, however, so if as I assume you are connecting by phone (you seem to start posting at 6pm...) you might not want to download the entire set. If you wish, I'm sure I'd be able to get a copy to you on CD-ROM or paper at some point in the next few months. >Knowing the format of the Daybreak microinstruction (and >whether the sequencer chip is custom as I suspect) would be a great help >here. That much only requires that I find and read the relevant sections, which I'll most likely do this weekend. >Are you _absolutely_ sure about those connections? I assume you've >checked them visually, and not relied on continuity tests (remember the >transformer might be shorted). I was wrong, of course. I had done it visually, but missed a trace under the body of the transformer, *and* mis-oriented the switch leads when I checked them. The wiring is actually absolutely straightforward: N------------+--1(| t |)5--+----fuse2--A front L--fuse1--+--|--2(| r |)6--|--+--------B panel | +--3(| n |)7--+ | +-----4(| s |)8-----+ (Sigh. I'm still at the point where I can't tell that obviously wrong things are wrong.) This seems to rule out everything but the transformer :-( From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Nov 5 20:40:15 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991105174832.00c37430@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: The hobbiest license does indeed include clustering. It is complete enough that I am not even temped to run BSD on my VS3100-M76. On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 05:23 PM 11/5/99 -0800, Zane wrote: > > >>Cluster it? > >Well, you've got to be running OpenVMS and have clustering licenses > >installed :^) > > I've got most of what I need for this, does the hobbiest license include > clustering licenses? 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MULTINET TGV 0 0 100 0.0 (none) 17-MAR-2000 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 5 21:05:59 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991105174832.00c37430@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: >The model tag says: Model #:VS48K-CA Hmmm, maybe that's not the best of framebuffers, here is what I just pulled up: VS48K-CA - 1280x1024, 72Hz - RGB (DEC-special, 3 mini-coax) >The ram slots are stuffed but I can't tell by inspection what kind of SIMMS >they are. The chips on them are marked TMS444000 (1MB x 4) which makes me >suspect they are perhaps 4MB SIMMs? That would put the memory at 24MB. Sounds right, 24Mb is the max it will hold. >When I opened it up I found an RZ24 nestled inside of it. So I can put a >basic OS there now that Ragge has SCSI working. Hmmm, it'll be tight with 7.2, might want to leave out the DECwindows stuff in favor of more interesting things. >I've got most of what I need for this, does the hobbiest license include >clustering licenses? Clustering is included. I've got a nice dual architecture Cluster running here, although it's primarily Alpha. >doubt it will start calling out to nearby monitors ... :-) If I run it >headless where do I plug the console? One of the MMJs? OK, I've only seen one of these once briefly. IIRC, there are two different MMJ connectors on the box, one in back, one on the side. I think you want the one on the side, and you might need to flip a switch on the side. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 5 21:31:12 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:23 2005 Subject: HP 9144 tapes Message-ID: <19991105.213145.104.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Humbug. They don't say 'compatible' anything. Damn. I guess these are stock DC615 stapes, then. Jeff On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:18:19 Joe writes: >Jeff, > > The distribution ones don't have a regular tape part number only the >PN >of the update but they should still say "9144 compatible". They >should >work fine. > > Joe > >At 02:33 PM 11/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Joe: >> >>Hmmm. The ones I have were used as distribution media for HPUX, >>and aren't so marked with a part number. I dunno . . . . >> >> >>Jeff >> >>On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 10:37:02 Joe writes: >>> I went and looked up the HP part number for the 9144 tapes. It's > >>> "HP >>> 88140LC" for the 65 Mb ones and "HP 88140SC" for the 15 Mb ones. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>Get the Internet just the way you want it. >>Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >>Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >> > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Nov 5 22:33:48 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: HP 9144 tapes In-Reply-To: jeff.kaneko@juno.com's message of "Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:31:12 -0600" References: <19991105.213145.104.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <199911060433.UAA68440@daemonweed.reanimators.org> jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > Humbug. They don't say 'compatible' anything. Damn. > I guess these are stock DC615 stapes, then. Here's how to guess; it depends on the tape having been properly rewound before ejection. But as you might have guessed, it's hard to get the HP drives to let go of a tape 'til they're darn good and ready and that means rewound. Hold the tape so you're looking at the clear plastic side with the capstan roller at the top. Which reel has (almost) all of the tape on it? Left -> HP tape, right -> non-HP. -Frank McConnell From mranalog at home.com Fri Nov 5 22:13:59 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Shipping old heavy stuff Message-ID: <3823AB07.5ED2A51D@home.com> "George Currie" said: > What shipping methods do people prefer for shipping larger (say > > 100lbs, large deskside, small mini type) systems. I've heard that many coin-op video game collectors like to use Forward Air. The last I heard, they charge $28.50 per 100. But it's primarily an airport to airport transport service. Airports served by Forward Air - http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/6996/forwardair.html Home Page http://www.forwardair.com/ I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I may be getting my 1800 pound computer from Indiana this month. A friend made a deal with a car collector that has his own enclosed car van. The driver should be picking it up on the way back from Florida. It might pay you to start hanging out at your local car clubs. :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Nov 5 23:41:02 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Old Vectrex machine spotted in goodwill (Hillsboro Oregon) In-Reply-To: <3823AB07.5ED2A51D@home.com> Message-ID: I don't collect they machines but some of you might. It isn't in Super shape had no cartdriges but I powered it up and it seems to function.... George george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Nov 5 23:47:59 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: OT: Microsoft Ruling is finally out! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991106004759.009ab540@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >Guity! And Guilty, too!!! ;-) It's too bad we couldn't have a say at the justice department to... say... have them rule as part of the verdict that they have to open-source all of the 10-year-old plus code for "obsoleted" machines... That would be a great day for us with classic machines! What the hell... if you're gonna dream, might as well dream big! ;-) Happy Daze, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From James at Brownfamily.com Sat Nov 6 00:16:32 1999 From: James at Brownfamily.com (James Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: DEC VAX Message-ID: <3823C7C0.23C8DE7C@Brownfamily.com> I'm looking for the printer/terminal for an old vax. the part number is a LA-100-BA It's a printer with the keyboard integrated. Would you happen to have one???? James From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 6 01:30:53 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: FW: Large number of DEC manuals for sale, Dealer inquiries welcome In-Reply-To: <19991105183837.11411.00001426@ng-fa1.aol.com> References: <19991105183837.11411.00001426@ng-fa1.aol.com> Message-ID: <8NgjOJMXAXzmxuaTc3I5PSHKjIor@4ax.com> Seen on Usenet. Maybe some of us can use the stuff? Contact the fellow directly if you're interested. Thanks. -=-=- -=-=- On 05 Nov 1999 23:38:37 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>From: choaglin@aol.com (CHoaglin) >>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>Subject: Large number of DEC manuals for sale, Dealer inquiries welcome >>Lines: 124 >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com >>X-Admin: news@aol.com >>Date: 05 Nov 1999 23:38:37 GMT >>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com >>Message-ID: <19991105183837.11411.00001426@ng-fa1.aol.com> >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news.vcd.hp.com!news.planetc.com!leto.backbone.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:4884 >> >>I have a huge number of manuals I'd like to sell off. All are in good >>condition, and some are shrinkwrapped still. I'm asking 5 bucks a piece in >>single quantities, less in some cases. I'll sell in any quantity, although I >>wouldn't mind selling them as a lot, since they're taking up space in my >>dining room right now. If anybody does want the whole lot, I'll certainly work >>with them as far as the per-book price goes. >> >>Here's a list of maybe half of the stuff... >> >>Decstation GW basic User's Guide & Reference >>VAX Fortran Vol. 2 Language Reference Manual >>DECnet/OSI Network Management >>DECnet/OSI for VMS: Introduction, planning, and glossary >>DECnet/OSI for VMS: DECnet use >>DECnet/OSI DECdts management >>DECnet/OSI End System Installation/Use >>DECnet/OSI Introduction & planning >>DECnet/OSI FTAM and Virtual Terminal Use and Management >>DECnet/OSI Network Control Language >>DECnet/OSI Network Management >>DECnet/OSI Problem Solving >>DECstation MS-DOS ver. 03.30.01 Enhancements $1 >>DEC TCP/IP services for OpenVMS system services and C socket programming >>Alpha AXP Firmware Porting Guide >>Mentec RSX-11M-plus release notes July 1995 $3 >>Emulex QD01/D Technical Manual >>Emulex QD35 Disk controller Installation and user guide >>Digital Microcomputers and Memories 1982 >>Digital Microcomputer processors 1978-79 >>DECnet/OSI Network control Language Quick reference guide >>DECnet/OSI Master index >>Digital LATplus/VMS Service Node Management Guide >>DECnet/OSI Installation and Configuration >>DECnet/OSI Glossary >>DEC C Run-Time Library Reference Manual for OpenVMS Systems >>DEC PC 400ST series Installation Guide >>The Software Dispatch: RSX-11M/S, M-PLUS, Micro/RSX october 1987 >>Software dispatch review: RSX-11M, RSX-11-MPLUS September 1985 >>DEC PC MS-DOS ver. 5.0 User's Guide and Reference >>DEC PC SVGA color monitor Installation Guide $1 >>VMS for Alpha Platforms Internals and Data Structures Vol. 1 >>DSSI VMScluster Installation and Troubleshooting Guide >>VAX 4000 Model 100A User Manual >>Digital: OpenVMS Compatibility Between VAX and Alpha >>Digital: Writing an OpenVMS Alpha SCSI Port Device Driver >>Webster WQESD Winchester Disc Controller User Manual (Quad ESDI for Q Bus) >>VAX Rdb/VMS guide to using SQL >>DEC PC Microsoft Windows Ver. 3.1 User's Guide $1 >>Digital Pathworks for OpenVMS (netware) Netware Utilities >>VMS for Alpha Platforms Internals and Data Structures Vol. 2 >>DEC PC MS-DOS Ver. 5.0 User's Guide and Reference >>RSX-11-MPLUS Vol. 1 >>Pathworks Product Family Overview >>Pathworks V5 for OpenVMS Server Administrator's Guide >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Planning and Setup Guide >>Pathworks V5 for OpenVMS Server Administrator's Command Reference >>Pathworks WAN Access (DOS/Windows) V1.0 Installation and Configuration Guide >>Pathworks V5 for Open VMS Server Messages >>Pathworks LAN Manager Remote Boot Guide >>DECprint Supervisor for OpenVMS: New Features >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows User's Handbook >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows Mail User's Reference >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows PC DECWindows Motif Guide >>Pathworks V5 for DOS ands Windows SEDT User's Reference >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows Terminal Emulation Guide >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows Mail User's Reference >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows SEDT User's Reference >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows PC DECWindows Motif Guide >>Pathworks X.25 (DOS/Windows) V5.0 Guide >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows Client Messages >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Printer Administration Guide >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Server Master Index $1 >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Server Administration Guide >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Guide to Managing Pathworks Licenses >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Server Installation and Upgrade Guide >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows Client Installation and Configuration Guide >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows Client Messages >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Printer Administration Guide >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Server Master Index $1 >>Pathworks for DOS and Windows Microsoft LAN Manager User's Guide for MS-DOS >>Pathworks V5 for DOS and Windows TCP/IP User's Guide >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Server Administration Guide >>Digital VAX 4000 Model 105A/106A Manual >>Digtial Datatrieve-11 Reference Manual >>Pathworks for OpenVMS Netware API Reference Set >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11M-PLUS, Micro/RSX April 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX July 1987 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX May 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX August 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX June 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX October 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX November 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX March 1987 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX February 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX January 1990 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX April 1989 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11-MPLUS, Micro/RSX December 1989 >>TCPware for OpenVMS Management Guide >>DEC C Installation Guide for OpenVMS VAX Systems >>VMScluster Systems for OpenVMS >>RSX-11 Utilities and commands: A Self-Paced Course Vol. 1 >>RSX-11M/RSX-11S Release Notes >>RSX-11M/MPLUS Utilities Manual >>Digital Peripherals Handbook 1981-82 >>OpenVMS AXP May 94 Layered Products Compact Disc User's Guide >>DECprint Supervisor for OpenVMS >>VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual >>Oracle Rdb Guide to Database Performance and Tuning >>DEC VMS/LMF System Services Reference Manual >>OpenVMS Management Station Overview and Release Notes >>DEC C User's Guide for OpenVMS Systems >>NCR 53CF94/96-2 Fast SCSI Controller Data Manual >>RSX-11M Version 4.2 Update Notes Revision D >>DECprint Supervisor for OpenVMS System Manager's Guide >>QMA DLV Asychronous Line Interface Technical Manual >>DRV11-WA General Purpose DMA Interface User's Guide >>RSX-11M-PLUS/RMS-11 Release Notes, Guide to Writing an I/O Driver, SYSGEN >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S, RSX-11M-PLUS, Micro/RSX January 1986 >>Software Dispatch RSX-11M/S June 1989 >>RSX-11M-PLUS Version 3.0 Updates Notes Revision D >>RSX-11M-PLUS Version 3.0 Update Notes Revision E >>VAX 4000 Model 100A 2T-BA21X-TP Adapter Kit Installation Guide >> >>-Chris -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Sat Nov 6 01:37:09 1999 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Some More VAXish questions.. Message-ID: <3823DAA5.A304A90@carnagevisors.net> Well, thanks to all those who replied last time. I think I may be getting somewhare with the vax. cant get the tape drive or deqna cards working, (their leds tell me something is wrong) but that is not what I am going to be asking about. When I try and boot the vax, I get Loading system software, 2..1..0.. %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file DUDRIVER.EXE ?06 HLT INST PC = 0000692B now I can get into the sysboot utility, have no idea what to do here. Is there a way I can get around this missing file, is the some command at the chevrons (>>>) or the sysboot> that I can use to get round this? Thanks Benjamin -- www.carnagevisors.net From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 6 01:32:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991105174832.00c37430@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Fri, 05 Nov 1999 18:13:52 -0800) References: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19991105174832.00c37430@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991106073200.9322.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > [Seriously, I'll trade a fully functional VAX w/ NetBSD installed for a > working straight 8 in decent condition.] I'll trade *FOUR* fully functional VAXen w/ NetBSD installed for a straight 8 in ANY condition. Or for a PDP-5, but what are the odds of finding that? Or maybe even for a LINC-8. Or I could offer a PDP-11/70. Or a big pile of cash. (Well, not too big.) But I think the reality is that the few people with "extra" straight-8 machines probably aren't reading this list. Sigh. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 6 07:59:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: DEC VAX Message-ID: <199911061359.IAA19373@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199911061516.KAA16376@world.std.com> >With all this talk of DF32s, I'd like to mention that I'm still >interested in getting a DF32 or RF08/RS08 for use with my PDP-8/I and >PDP-12. If anyone knows where an extra can be found, or has one for sale I wouldn't mind any of the above for my LAB-8/E... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Nov 6 11:41:36 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Looking for Intel's 8008 programming tools: PL/M, Assembler, Simulator Message-ID: <002d01bf287e$2cb60560$013da8c0@Corellian> Hi All, I am looking for Intel's programming tools for the 8008 microprocessor. These were written in Fortran and consisted of: An assembler A simulator A PL/M compiler Any information on these tools would be appreciated! An original tape, card deck, listing, would be great to find, but a copy of any or all of those would be acceptable! The PL/M compiler and 8008 Similator were written by the late Gary Kildall (of CP/M fame) for Intel. Thanks! jlewczyk@his.com From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Nov 6 14:32:16 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: KIM-1, KIM-2, KIM-3, KIM-4 Message-ID: <002e01bf2896$03e9c280$013da8c0@Corellian> I know what a KIM-1 is, the processor, tape and serial interface, etc. I know what a KIM-2 is, a memory expansion board I know what a KIM-4 is, its a "motherboard" for expanding a KIM-1 What is a KIM-3? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 14:53:50 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106124502.009dfe80@mcmanis.com> Anyone have any experience with the Dilog DQ696 ESDI disk controllers? I just installed one in a MicroVAX III and I've been getting really _dismal_ performance out of it. I had it misterminated for a bit (the middle drive (of two) was terminated rather than the end drive). But I fixed that without any increase in performance. The format/block analysis took about 10 hours for a 600MB disk. The interleave was set to 1 but that seems pretty standard these days, should I up it to 2 or 3? or perhaps reduce it to 0? The drives are Micropolis 1568's so they're nice fast drives. How about Q-bus priority? I moved the Dilog to the slot just after the DELQA so it its CPU->DELQA->DILOG->TQK70 but that hasn't helped either. Any other suggestions or are these things just slow? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 13:34:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: DEC VAX In-Reply-To: <3823C7C0.23C8DE7C@Brownfamily.com> from "James Brown" at Nov 5, 99 10:16:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991106/ea37fff1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 13:15:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 5, 99 09:28:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991106/d2909a8b/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sat Nov 6 15:50:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list Message-ID: <4.1.19991106134140.00a23420@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> So this is what is stuck in the 11/34 I got: Backplane #1 (working from right to left as seen from the front) M8266 (6) M8265 (6) M8267 (6) M7859 (4) M9312 (2) M7896 (6) M7856 (4) M7228 (4) M920 (2) ** bus jumper ** Backplane #2 M7800 (4) M7800 (4) M7860 (4) M7860 (4) M7892 (4) Dual D/A converters (third party) (6) Grant card M8716 (4) M9202 (2) ** bus jumper ** Backplane #3 M7219 (4) M7821 (3?) M796 (1) (hidden) (2) M9760 (2) M9302 (2) In this last back plane there are several cards that are dual or one wide and are short with white extension things over them so that they can be pushed from the top (but they hide the M numbers) So it seems that this is actually an 11/34a on the inside, that's nice to know. Anyone have any clues on the third backplane? --Chuck From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Nov 6 15:56:08 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: KIM-1, KIM-2, KIM-3, KIM-4 In-Reply-To: <002e01bf2896$03e9c280$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991106165608.007af680@mail.wincom.net> At 03:32 PM 11/6/1999 -0500, you wrote: >I know what a KIM-1 is, the processor, tape and serial interface, etc. >I know what a KIM-2 is, a memory expansion board >I know what a KIM-4 is, its a "motherboard" for expanding a KIM-1 > >What is a KIM-3? > > > Kim 3 is an 8K ram. (Kim 2 is 4K) Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 16:14:40 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Q: Re: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991106134140.00a23420@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991106141014.00bb3330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:50 PM 11/6/99 -0800, I wrote: [an inventory] >Backplane #3 >M7219 (4) >M7821 (3?) >M796 (1) >(hidden) (2) M9760 (2) M9302 (2) This last back plane must be some custom wired device. I managed to get down to some of the short boards and they are M series flip chips. M611, M205, etc so no doubt I've got some sort of custom interface thing-a-ma-jig. (no docs though :-) Having looked up all the modules, is it reasonable to assume that I could move the 9302 bus terminator to the first backplane and run the system in ODT mode? Does anyone know if the RL11 will swap with the TA11 to switch from cassette operation to RL02 operation? --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 6 16:42:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? Message-ID: <991106174216.202000ae@trailing-edge.com> >Anyone have any experience with the Dilog DQ696 ESDI disk controllers? I >just installed one in a MicroVAX III and I've been getting really _dismal_ >performance out of it. I had it misterminated for a bit (the middle drive >(of two) was terminated rather than the end drive). But I fixed that >without any increase in performance. The format/block analysis took about >10 hours for a 600MB disk. > >The interleave was set to 1 but that seems pretty standard these days, >should I up it to 2 or 3? or perhaps reduce it to 0? > >The drives are Micropolis 1568's so they're nice fast drives. Were these 1568's used previously on this Dilog controller? If not, they're probably configured for use on a PC-clone, and have the sector length set on the "short" side. The PLO in the Dilog isn't locking onto successive blocks, and as a result it's reading only one sector per revolution. The cure is to set the sector length on the 1568's to be a bit longer. You'll lose a little bit of capacity (and will have to reformat), but it'll be able to read more than one sector per revolution. Setting the interleave can interact with this, of course. If you don't know how to alter the block length on your drives, try altering the interleave and see if that helps any. > How about >Q-bus priority? No, if things are slow with the controller running the built-in exerciser (which *don't* move disk data over the Q-bus) it's not a Q-bus problem. It's a drive problem. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 6 16:55:30 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list Message-ID: <991106175530.202000ae@trailing-edge.com> >Backplane #1 (working from right to left as seen from the front) >M8266 (6) 11/34A control >M8265 (6) 11/34A data paths >M8267 (6) 11/34A FP >M7859 (4) M9312 (2) Console interface and bootstrap/terminator >M7896 (6) My book says the M7896-YA is a quad board, and is a DSS11 with 48 24V contact sense inputs. This doesn't match up with what I'd expect here, nor your description of it as a hex-height board. Can you double-check this one? I suspect that it's actually a memory board... >M7856 (4) DL11 async line interface >M7228 (4) M920 (2) ** bus jumper ** KW11-P real-time programmable clock >Backplane #2 >M7800 (4) >M7800 (4) KL11's >M7860 (4) >M7860 (4) DR11-C's (general purpose parallel input/output) >M7892 (4) TU60 interface >Dual D/A converters (third party) (6) >Grant card >M8716 (4) M9202 (2) ** bus jumper ** DR11-W, DMA parallel input/output >Backplane #3 >M7219 (4) RC11 bus interface >M7821 (3?) Interrupt control >M796 (1) Unibus master control >(hidden) (2) >M9760 (2) 60-wire cable, presumably running to a drive. >M9302 (2) Terminators >In this last back plane there are several cards that are dual or one wide >and are short with white extension things over them so that they can be >pushed from the top (but they hide the M numbers) > >So it seems that this is actually an 11/34a on the inside, that's nice to >know. Anyone have any clues on the third backplane? It looks to be at least part of the Unibus interface (RC11) for the RS64/RS03/RS04 drives. These are head-per-track disks with capacities of 64K, 256K, and 512K words respectively. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 6 17:19:46 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > I am sending this to the list, because I want to make a small point. > Obviously I like old computers. And I don't mind receiving e-mail > (questions or help) relating to such machines -- that's why I am here ;-). ________O/_______ O\ > [Transformer that blows fuses] > > > >Are you _absolutely_ sure about those connections? I assume you've > > >checked them visually, and not relied on continuity tests (remember the > > >transformer might be shorted). > > > > I was wrong, of course. I had done it visually, but missed a trace under > > Don't worry about it.... We all make mistakes, me more than most. > > The good thing is that now we know what's going on, and it makes sense. > So we can go forwards... > > > the body of the transformer, *and* mis-oriented the switch leads when I > > checked them. The wiring is actually absolutely straightforward: > > > > N------------+--1(| t |)5--+----fuse2--A front > > L--fuse1--+--|--2(| r |)6--|--+--------B panel > > | +--3(| n |)7--+ | > > +-----4(| s |)8-----+ > > > OK, this makes a lot of sense. I think it's safe to assume that there are > 2 primary windings, which are connected in parallel for 120V mains (and I > would guess in series for 240V mains -- this is a very common setup). > And 2 identical secondaries, also in parallel. And the transformer is > always energised, which explains why the fuse blows when you plug the > machine in (without having to turn the machine on) > > > > (Sigh. I'm still at the point where I can't tell that obviously wrong > > things are wrong.) This seems to rule out everything but the transformer > > :-( > > If fuse 1 blows even with A and B disconnected, then it's very likely > that the transformer has shorted turns. Still, all is not lost. There are > ways to make some likely guesses as to what the transformer should be. Would it not, perhaps, be a good check to disconnect the paralleled windings and check them out individually to determine whether the two input or output windings might be bucking instead of properly paralleled. Resistance checks might also indicate if there were shorted windings in one. - don > Firstly look at the physical size of the transformer and compare it with > ones in catalogues. From the fact that it's a PCB mounting unit, I am > going to guess at 3VA or 6VA. Something around that, anyway. > > Then remember that fuse2 is a 3/4A fuse, so the total secondary current > is <3/4A. If it's a 6VA transformer, that's beginning to sound like a 12V > 0.5A unit or something close to that. > > Look at what it's connected to. If it goes to a rectifier/capacitor > arrangement, what's the working voltage of the capacitor. That puts an > upper limit on the secondary voltage. Remember, of course, that the peak > voltage on the output of a rectifier = the _peak_ AC input voltage, which > is sqrt(2) times the RMS voltage. > > If all else fails, dismantle the old transformer, unwind the wire, and > count the turns. Then work out the turns ratio between primary and > secondary. Although there will be more turns on the secondary than you > might expect (to compensate for voltage drop when you start drawing > current), this will give a good idea of the expected voltage. Given that, > it's easy to get a replacement transformer. > > -tony > > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Nov 6 17:29:24 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? References: <4.2.0.58.19991106124502.009dfe80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <014401bf28ae$e45ace00$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? > The interleave was set to 1 but that seems pretty standard these days, > should I up it to 2 or 3? or perhaps reduce it to 0? Try interleave 2. I just tried it, and it is much faster. should be ready in 1 hour ;-) cheers, emanuel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 17:26:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <991106175530.202000ae@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Nov 6, 99 05:55:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2411 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991106/2eeba6b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 17:31:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Q: Re: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991106141014.00bb3330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 6, 99 02:14:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1811 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991106/ac423963/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 17:39:52 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? In-Reply-To: <991106174216.202000ae@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106153636.02142890@mcmanis.com> At 05:42 PM 11/6/99 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Were these 1568's used previously on this Dilog controller? If not, they're >probably configured for use on a PC-clone, and have the sector length set >on the "short" side. The PLO in the Dilog isn't locking onto successive >blocks, and as a result it's reading only one sector per revolution. No, they were previously used on the Sigma RQ11D (aka a Webster WQESD). In the screen that comes up with the on-board formatter the drive claims it is in "hard sectored" mode (which the Dilog stuff I got from Dilog reccomends) >The cure is to set the sector length on the 1568's to be a bit longer. >You'll lose a little bit of capacity (and will have to reformat), but it'll >be able to read more than one sector per revolution. This makes sense and I did it originally for the Sigma (went from 54 sectors to 53 sectors) so perhaps an interesting question is whether or not it is really running in hard sectored mode or not. > How about >Q-bus priority? >No, if things are slow with the controller running the built-in exerciser >(which *don't* move disk data over the Q-bus) it's not a Q-bus problem. >It's a drive problem. Good point. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 17:44:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <991106175530.202000ae@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106153957.021432c0@mcmanis.com> At 05:55 PM 11/6/99 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >M7896 (6) > >My book says the M7896-YA is a quad board, and is a DSS11 with 48 24V >contact sense inputs. I went back and checked it and it is a 128KW MOS memory card. > >Backplane #2 > >M7800 (4) > >M7800 (4) >KL11's Are KL11's "general purpose" serial ports? >DR11-C's (general purpose parallel input/output) This is way cool since I like to make the my classic machines do visual things and without the front panel I'll have some bits to play with. >DR11-W, DMA parallel input/output This is even cooler. If I understand correctly I can set this up to DMA 16 bit reads into memory based on a strobe input? >RC11 bus interface THis is what I think the entire 3rd Backplane is implementing. Interesting. Not that I'll find an RSxx drive anytime soon. Thanks Tim, now to clean it out and bring it back to life! --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Nov 6 19:40:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: HP 9144 and HP tapes: Again Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991106194055.2337c5ca@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just got back from another hamfest. The only interesting computer stuff that I scored was two dozen new HP tapes. In the box are some that are marked "(for use with the HP9142)". This is the first time that I've seen tapes for the 9142. They have part number 92242L for the long ones (600 ft.) and part number 92242S for the long ones (150 ft.) These are not usable in the 9144 or 9145 tape drives. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 17:47:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 6, 99 03:19:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991106/57b8b55d/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 6 18:04:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: OT: Tru64 Unix 5.0 Hobbyist Message-ID: For those that don't know, Tru64 is the what used to be called DEC Unix, which in turn used to be called OSF/1. Friday evening Compaq announced/release a Hobbyist version. It's $99.00 for a copy, I don't know what licenses are included. Please note, this doesn't run on VAXen, but it does run on most Alpha's with 64MB+ RAM and 1GB+ Hard Drive space. http://www.unix.digital.com/webadvisory/ http://www.unix.digital.com/noncommercial-unix/ Personally, I might get it, but the system that is running UNIX right now is going to continue to run OpenBSD. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 18:09:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991106153957.021432c0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 6, 99 03:44:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/c5a98ab7/attachment.ksh From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Nov 6 18:34:03 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: MicroVax Amusement Message-ID: Just thought I'd share my amusement. Right now I'm booting up a MicroVax II using an Apple IIgs as a console. It just amuses me that Retrocomputerists often combine systems in strange ways totally unforeseen and unexpected by the original designers. Anthony Clifton From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Nov 6 17:24:05 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Tennecomp Systems TP-000020B - What is it? Message-ID: Looking at some of the inventorying of an 11/34 inspired me to look inside my 11/34a again. It has a board labelled -> Tennecomp Systems TP-000020B Anyone know what this board is or what kinds of boards Tennecomp made? I did a search on the Net and only found a resume of someone who worked there. If nobody here knows, maybe I'll send her an email (but she looked like a production manager not an engineering type) and see if she can tell me what sorts of things they made. Thanks... Wirehead From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 6 18:46:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: KIM-1, KIM-2, KIM-3, KIM-4 Message-ID: <000a01bf28b9$90f1f4e0$0400c0a8@winbook> KIM-3 is a memory expansion board with 8KB of 2102's, twice what's on the KIM-2. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Lewczyk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:33 PM Subject: KIM-1, KIM-2, KIM-3, KIM-4 >I know what a KIM-1 is, the processor, tape and serial interface, etc. >I know what a KIM-2 is, a memory expansion board >I know what a KIM-4 is, its a "motherboard" for expanding a KIM-1 > >What is a KIM-3? > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 18:50:40 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991106153957.021432c0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106164602.021a5c70@mcmanis.com> At 12:09 AM 11/7/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >They're DL11s, and depending on the link settings and the chips fitted, >they're either current loop or RS232 ports (using the standard-ish DEC >cables). They're pretty dumb interrupt-on-a-character ports, but they're >easy to program and work. And yes, they're general purpose ports. Neat, sort of like the original PDP-8 serial port. :-) >Only thing is, I thought the DR11-W was a hex card.. I can go check the handle, the card is definitely quad as its in the same row as the bus jumper. >I'm almost sure it's actually a DR11-B. You correctly identified it. I moved a few of the white handled things and all the cards you mentioned are in there. So it is a DR-11B. Thanks Tony! Lots of good info. I can't wait to start the check out to get it fired up... --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 18:52:50 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? In-Reply-To: <014401bf28ae$e45ace00$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> References: <4.2.0.58.19991106124502.009dfe80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106165108.0215a3f0@mcmanis.com> At 04:29 PM 11/6/99 -0700, emanuel wrote: >Try interleave 2. I just tried it, and it is much faster. >should be ready in 1 hour ;-) It is *MUCH* faster. At the risk of starting a flame fest, does anyone have any ideas on "tuning" tools such that one could know when they are getting the "best" performance out of a classic machine? --Chuck From mdalene at home.ctol.net Sat Nov 6 18:57:39 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Needed, Memory chip info for a Compaq Message-ID: I am aware that this list covers Older systems than Compaq. From what I can see from reading this list.. someone might have an answer. I have a Compaq Despro 386n. Currently it has 4mb of ram. I am painfully running Slackware 3.1 on it. Does anyone know what kind of Memory this machine is using? From what I can see, it has two Simm modules that appear to be 72 pin. There is memory chips on both sides of these. Does standard Simms of the 72pin variety have memory chips on both sides of the simm? If these ARE standard, does anyone have two 8mb ones? I want to put 16mb of ram on the Deskpro as 4mb stinks! The Compaq only can hold two of them unless you have the special Compaq memory expander board. If these are specialized. again who has them inexpensivly? Please respond either via the list or priate email to my address above. A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- aY2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 19:08:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991106164602.021a5c70@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 6, 99 04:50:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/f5536e8e/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 6 19:14:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Needed, Memory chip info for a Compaq Message-ID: <000b01bf28bd$6f5f26a0$0400c0a8@winbook> There were two types of SIMMs, initially. The ones with equal numbers of devices on both sides were viewed in some systems as being two SIMMs, but occupying a single site. I had one motherboard which required you jumper it differently for the double-sided variety than for the single-sided. Now, some of the single-sided SIMM had the parity chips on the reverse side, but were still thought/spoken of as single-sided. You might do well scrounging around an electronics graveyard (landfill). I've left bunches of them lying there while diving for pearls. Dick -----Original Message----- From: B'ichela To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Needed, Memory chip info for a Compaq > I am aware that this list covers Older systems than Compaq. From >what I can see from reading this list.. someone might have an answer. > I have a Compaq Despro 386n. Currently it has 4mb of ram. I am >painfully running Slackware 3.1 on it. Does anyone know what kind of >Memory this machine is using? From what I can see, it has two Simm modules >that appear to be 72 pin. There is memory chips on both sides of these. >Does standard Simms of the 72pin variety have memory chips on both sides >of the simm? > If these ARE standard, does anyone have two 8mb ones? I want to >put 16mb of ram on the Deskpro as 4mb stinks! The Compaq only can hold two >of them unless you have the special Compaq memory expander board. If these >are specialized. again who has them inexpensivly? > Please respond either via the list or priate email to my address >above. > > A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >aY2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the >potential to be a dandy. > -- Anonymnous -- >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > B'ichela > > From mbg at world.std.com Sat Nov 6 19:35:23 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Q: Re: 11/34 inventory - board list Message-ID: <199911070135.UAA18826@world.std.com> >Does anyone know if the RL11 will swap with the TA11 to switch from >cassette operation to RL02 operation? What do you mean by 'swap with'? The RL11 and TA11 show up at entirely different addresses in the IO page, and which the system boots is dependent upon the bootstrap code available, and not the position of boards in the bus. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 6 19:46:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Q: Re: 11/34 inventory - board list In-Reply-To: <199911070135.UAA18826@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106174453.0215f1e0@mcmanis.com> At 08:35 PM 11/6/99 -0500, Megan wrote: > >Does anyone know if the RL11 will swap with the TA11 to switch from > >cassette operation to RL02 operation? > >What do you mean by 'swap with'? The RL11 and TA11 show up at >entirely different addresses in the IO page, and which the system >boots is dependent upon the bootstrap code available, and not the >position of boards in the bus. I meant if I needed to re-wire the backplane. The info needed was if they were both DMA devices or not. I don't have a configuration guide. I can find boot roms for the RL series drives. --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 6 20:23:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? Message-ID: <199911070223.VAA10027@world.std.com> Hi I'm passing this along in case someone on the list can help this fellow: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:04:50 +0100 From: Stephan Slabihoud stephannews1@slabihoud.de Hi, I am looking for scans of homecomputer mainboards of the 70ths and 80ths. These scans I would like to add to my computing museum (http://www.8bit-museum.de). Unfortunately a lot of scans are not available yet: No scan available: :-( Acorn, Amstrad, Coleco, Dragon, EACA, Enterprise, Excidy, Jupiter, Luxor, Mattel, NeXT, Osborne, Sharp, Spectravideo, Tandy, Tatung, Camputers and Exelvision A few scans available: :-) Apple (Apple I), Atari (2600 black, 800XL), Commodore (8032, VC20, C64, C64C, C116, C16, P/4), MITS (8800), Oric (1, Atmos, Telestrat), Sinclair (MK14, ZX80/81, Spectrum Issue 1+2, QL), Texas (99/4A), VTech (Laser 500) Some of the scans are not very good and I will be pleased to replace them by better ones. Who wants to help me but does not know how to make a scan or photo of the mainboard can ask for my advice. :-) A picture should not exceed 800 KByte (JPG medium). Thanx very much Stephan Slabihoud From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 7 00:08:58 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Priority for a QDSS color framebuffer? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991106220653.02160ae0@mcmanis.com> Where is the color frame buffer normally placed relative to everything else in a Vaxstation II/GPX ? (everything else being defined as ethernet, TQK70, disk, and async muxes) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 7 01:36:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Priority for a QDSS color framebuffer? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991106220653.02160ae0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >Where is the color frame buffer normally placed relative to everything else >in a Vaxstation II/GPX ? (everything else being defined as ethernet, TQK70, >disk, and async muxes) >--Chuck Well, on my VAXstation II/RC the B&W framebuffer was actually between the CPU and the RAM Board. CPU VCB01 RAM DEQNA | Grant Continuity card RQDX3 | TQK50 This might point you in the correct direction. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 7 07:19:07 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Just picked up a HUGE PDP-8I and PDP-15 and ..... Message-ID: <003501bf2922$ac78fba0$b572e2d1@default> Here is what I picked up: (lot of questions); PDP-8I (came from a former Dec employee): This mini is loaded. (I am really tired and have not had a chance to look at it all but..): It came in two racks. The first rack contained the 8I with high speed paper tape, and a DF32. The second rack had 4 core memory expanders (MM8I), an AX08, an Oscilloscope interface, and a REALLY COOL NEGIBUS 8" floppy drive that emulates 2-4 DF32s. The second rack is a "LAB-8" config. I got all the manuals (for every part), maintenance docs, "D" size prints, heaps of OS/8 stuff, TSS/8, and disk monitor. The system came with 12 trays of paper tape. I have no idea how much core is in the CPU as I have not pulled it out. In the prints I saw it has "EAE" and some other options... Oh,oh, and I got at least 30 negibus cables :-) PDP-15 This unit came in 3 racks. The first rack is the CPU/control panel with: high speed paper tape, mag tape, and a "blinky light panel on the top". The second rack is the CPU and power supply. The third rack contains a large drum memory unit and interface. The CPU has two large core planes. I don't know if there are any more hidden anywhere. This unit is large and came with 6 large boxes of documentation, schematics, maintenance manuals... Software wise it has a lot more than I expected... 45 trays of paper tape. I was told MUMPS was on it/with it? I have not looked at the paper tapes yet. Bought boxes of spare boards: I also bought 10 large boxes of PDP 11, PDP 8, and other digital peripheral/CPU cards. I will compile a list in case anyone needs anything I am not keeping. I also picked up 15-20 boxes of brand new boards from dec/third party still wrapped... no idea what they are yet. Bought a large box of Nova core memory/FPU I picked up around 10 core memory planes and tons of Nova 2/3 spares. I got a lot more Flip Chips and another H901 blue flip chip patch panel. I will take a picture when I can but these systems are taking up my families hallway, living room and dining room at the moment so I have to clean out more of my lab and roll the stuff in. Basically, I bought everything but the PDP 11/34 that was left there. I hope to have the 8I running early next week (looks like it is plug and play). Questions: 1. How much memory is inside the 8I and what was the stack size, how much expansion is the MM8Ia s? 2. Does drum memory crash when you cycle the power? 3. I found a board made by digital that says "CMOS-8" (memory),, what model PDP-8 does this work on? 4. Anything "bugs" I should watch out for before powering up the 8I or the PDP-15? Thanks john... From lance at costanzo.net Sun Nov 7 09:00:23 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: HP9825 on epay Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991107070021.0075b20c@costanzo.net> Picked this off of another list: >Dan B forcefld@verinet.com >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=195400748 >Fort Collins, CO USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at >19:28:06 >I just took this thing off my freinds porch and stuck it on >EBAY. Can anybody fill me in a little on its age? I used to >play with HP 9830 computers, I think this is a little >newer-but its hard to say. Its a 9825, with red LED display, >tape drive, and thermal printer, and it comes with a pile of >other junk. Well-its on ebay!~any info that I might add to >the auction would be helpful. Thankyou! Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 7 10:00:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: Priority for a QDSS color framebuffer? Message-ID: <199911071600.LAA01348@world.std.com> >Where is the color frame buffer normally placed relative to everything >else in a Vaxstation II/GPX ? (everything else being defined as ethernet, >TQK70, disk, and async muxes) According to the Vaxstation II/GPX hardware manual, the correct sequence of boards is: 1) CPU 2) Memory 3) Ethernet interface 4) VCB02 base 5) VCB02 memory 6) VCB02 memory 7) Async comm (DZQ) 8) Asyn multiplexor (DHV) 9) Sync Comm (DMV) 10) Disk controller (RQDX3) 11) Tape controller (TQK50) But I have always placed the disk controller after the ethernet interface and before the VCB02... it puts the controller electrically closer to the CPU, which should make disk I/O a little faster (I know, almost infinitesimal, but the delay has got to be measurable, and adds up over time). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 10:27:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/6e6cc98d/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 7 11:54:16 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:24 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem Message-ID: <001301bf2949$1bf42600$b572e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 12:10 PM Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem >I'm still working on that Rainbow, and today I've tried it with a DEC >VR241 colour monitor. > >The good news is that the graphics card (and GSX) works fine. And the >graphics are rather impressive compared to the (contemporary) IBM CGA card. > >The bad news is that the VR241 has a fault. I feel somewhat strange >asking this here, as I'm normally the one to answer such questions, but >here goes... Hmmmm > >The fault is in the vertical scan. The top 2 lines (or so) are spread >out, so that the top row of characters appears to have black lines >running through them. In other words the vertical scan is very non-linear >at the top. If part of the picture is cut off with a horizontal line then it is either a video timing problem or a fault in the deflection circuitry preventing the beam from being where it is supposed to scan in enough time. > >Adjusting the vertical linearity control improves things a little, but >reducing the spacing at the top increases it at the bottom. What is odd >is that the vertical position control affects the fault as well -- the >problem gets worse as the picture is moved up the screen. This seems to >rule out a problem with the ramp generator, since the vertical position >control operates by applying a DC current to the yoke. This is likely a vertical deflection problem - possibly a bad capacitor, bad connection, bad flyback/pumpup diode. >The problem gets >better as the monitor warms up. > Ahh,, a dried up electrolytic capacitor is most likely.. if it got a lot worse then it would be a semiconductor. >I've not dived into it yet -- and I suspect the electrolytic in the >vertical output stage. I am wondering if anyone's seen this before and >can suggest a possible cause. > Easiest thing to do is substitute a good capacitor for each electrolytic in the vertical output circuit. (if you don't have a scope). If you do have a scope then work your way through the vertical output circuit and locate the problem. john >-tony > From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Nov 7 12:17:33 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem Message-ID: <004001bf294c$860fd0e0$d652e780@l166> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell >The fault is in the vertical scan. The top 2 lines (or so) are spread >out, so that the top row of characters appears to have black lines >running through them. In other words the vertical scan is very non-linear >at the top. I have seen this on many VR241's when the HT supply is about ready to smoke. (literally) I have not taken the time fix them as I normally have a few spares readily available for exchange. I buy them for a LOT less than my time is worth to fix one. (free to $30 - shipping is more than the monitor usually) Dan From jrice at texoma.net Sun Nov 7 12:50:30 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 Message-ID: <3825C9F6.86168689@texoma.net> I was given a Tandy 2000 recently. Due to the death of my mother this week I just tried to boot it. It puts the 256k memeory message on the screen and the floppy drive light comes on but it never seems to boot. I recieved a boot disk copy with the machine and have ordered a MSDOS/Basic boot disk from RSU but no resultds. Any common prblem I should look for? I've already reversed the floppy drives with the same results. James -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Nov 7 13:24:36 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991107142436.007a54b0@mail.wincom.net> >The fault is in the vertical scan. The top 2 lines (or so) are spread >out, so that the top row of characters appears to have black lines >running through them. In other words the vertical scan is very non-linear >at the top. > >Adjusting the vertical linearity control improves things a little, but >reducing the spacing at the top increases it at the bottom. What is odd >is that the vertical position control affects the fault as well -- the >problem gets worse as the picture is moved up the screen. This seems to >rule out a problem with the ramp generator, since the vertical position >control operates by applying a DC current to the yoke. The problem gets >better as the monitor warms up. > >I've not dived into it yet -- and I suspect the electrolytics in the >vertical output stage. I am wondering if anyone's seen this before and >can suggest a possible cause. > >-tony It wouldn't by any chance be a heavily magnetized CRT? Have you tried degausing it? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From avri at freemail.c3.hu Sun Nov 7 15:14:35 1999 From: avri at freemail.c3.hu (Chester) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Help Message-ID: <000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester> Hello. I need some help. I have a WANG (WLTC) Laptop with printer, and my operation system was crashed. I have no any boot disk. I need a boot disk and the latest operation system. If it's possible please send me some links, or let me know where I can download this programs. My laptop's properties are : WANG Laboratories Inc. FCC I.D.: B4Y8P7 WLTC MADE DATE Febr 24 1987 Serial number : 95235V Sorry about my English, and thank you very very much . Avramucz Mihaly from Hungary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/be8f8087/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 14:04:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem In-Reply-To: <004001bf294c$860fd0e0$d652e780@l166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Nov 7, 99 01:17:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/70996c70/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 13:48:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem In-Reply-To: <001301bf2949$1bf42600$b572e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 7, 99 12:54:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4262 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/a35eca54/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 15:57:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991107142436.007a54b0@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Nov 7, 99 02:24:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991107/a7f6c0b6/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 7 18:24:21 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: HP9825 on epay In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991107070021.0075b20c@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991107182421.4dafacdc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Lance, I've already got a bid on it. Yes, it's newer than the 9830. The 9815, 9825, 9835, 9845 series replaced the 9810, 9820, 9830 series. It was annouunced in the June 1976 issue of the HP Journal. Joe At 07:00 AM 11/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >Picked this off of another list: >>Dan B forcefld@verinet.com >>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=195400748 >>Fort Collins, CO USA - Saturday, November 06, 1999 at >>19:28:06 >>I just took this thing off my freinds porch and stuck it on >>EBAY. Can anybody fill me in a little on its age? I used to >>play with HP 9830 computers, I think this is a little >>newer-but its hard to say. Its a 9825, with red LED display, >>tape drive, and thermal printer, and it comes with a pile of >>other junk. Well-its on ebay!~any info that I might add to >>the auction would be helpful. Thankyou! > > >Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com >System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting >lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees > > From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Nov 7 17:32:39 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Wanted: TK50 Cartridges Message-ID: I'm looking for a bunch of TK50 cartridges since local sources have turned up nothing. Does anyone want to unload a bunch? I'm willing to pay for them. Email with details and what you want for them. If nothing else, I'd be willing to trade an 11/24 board set (M7133) and MOS RAM board (M8743) for some. Thanks... Anthony Clifton From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 7 17:41:52 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Wanted: TK50 Cartridges In-Reply-To: from "Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE" at Nov 07, 1999 05:32:39 PM Message-ID: <199911072341.PAA04002@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Anthony: I have a bunch of surplus TK50s. I'd rather trade. Do you have an Unibus cards? How about surplus Omnibus stuff? A card reader is on my "most wanted" list right now. I have an 11/24 CPU - do you have the other supporting cards? The 11/24 backplane? I have a "wish list" at http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/wishlist.html, please check there to see if there's any overlap with your spares. Otherwise I'll sell 'em, how many are you looking for? I have about 30 spares right now. Kevin > > > I'm looking for a bunch of TK50 cartridges since local sources have turned > up nothing. > > Does anyone want to unload a bunch? I'm willing to pay for them. > > Email with details and what you want for them. > > If nothing else, I'd be willing to trade an 11/24 board set (M7133) and MOS RAM > board (M8743) for some. > > Thanks... > > Anthony Clifton > > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Nov 7 17:46:48 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Wanted: TK50 Cartridges In-Reply-To: from Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE at "Nov 7, 1999 05:32:39 pm" Message-ID: <19991107234659Z433452-20065+183@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> I may be able to help you out, depending upon how many you need. I've been trying to collect TK50 tapes, since I use them on my PDP11s, but I may have a bit of a surplus. I should have 18 new ones arriving sometime this week. I need some of them, but I could let 5 or 6 go. I'm not sure what shape they are in. Somebody contacted me by email saying they found a bunch of them cleaning out an old computer room. They appear occassionally on eBay. You can also try old DEC shops. Dec distributed a lot of their system software on TK50s. These tapes were written once, and read a few times, so they are usually in pretty good shape. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 7 19:19:15 1999 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations References: Message-ID: <38262513.6877@swbell.net> Hello Kevin, Somewhere you mentioned the company you work for made ucode compilers, assemblers. Anything left of these products laying around? Congrats on finding the Xerox machines, I've given up all hope of getting one. Regards, Mitch Wright Kevin Schoedel wrote: > > Hello all, > > I've just been fortunate enough to obtain a pair or Xerox D-series > machines. One is a 53D (Daybreak? Dove? 6085? 1186?) and the other an > 8010. > > I understand the 53D has its microcode control store in RAM; is there any > available information on the microinstruction encoding, and how I might > in principle be able to write my own? (I work for a company that did > microcode compilers, ten years ago when people still built microcoded > machines, so yes, I *do* know what I'm suggesting.) For that matter, is > there any available information on the macroinstruction set(s)? So far > I've been able to find very little about these boxes. > > The 53D boots happily into Lisp. Err... could someone please tell me, as > soon as possible, how to safely shut this machine off? > > Two boxes of Lisp manuals, dated June 1997, and still shrink-wrapped. If > there is a 'collector' out there who would like to trade for 'working' > copies of the same, contact me before I open them.... > > A carton of Lisp floppies; although these were sold with the 8010, they > clearly belong to the 53D, since they're 5.25" not 8". They're marked > DS/DD 48tpi; is there anything unusual about these, or could they in > principle be read and archived from a current pc? > > The 8010 doesn't boot. The power supply is fine; the drive spins up and > is loud but sounds smooth. The LEDs rest at 0000, and nothing happens. > Any obvious things I should try, or will I have to wait until I can do > Serious Work on this? > > -- > Kevin Schoedel > schoedel@kw.igs.net From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Nov 7 19:35:07 1999 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Wanted: Old DEC stuff in Texas References: <19991029181810.A19407@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <382628CB.5393@swbell.net> Hello Bill, I'm in Houston and chase down DEC stuff. I've got a couple of uVAX and a PDP-11/44. I (you) have just missed an 11/24 over in New Orleans it was a good find but to far and big a load for me. I know where an VAX 11/750 is if you are willing to drive a ways. Do you know of any sources for SMD drives? Like the sabers or eagles used on suns a few years ago? Are the Sun power supplies for powering SMD drives, I need one with -5V at 6AMPs. Regards, Mitch Wright Bill Bradford wrote: > > Anybody out there within a reasonable driving distance (6 hours?) of > Austin, Texas that has any old DEC gear they'd like to get rid of to > a good home? I've got a two-car garage thats finished out with carpet > and paneling, and I'd like to start that collection of DEC stuff I > always wanted. I'm looking for VT1xx/2xx/3xx terminals, MicroVAX/ > VAX equipment, PDP-11 (especially) gear, etc. > > Stuff I've got for sale or trade or donation if you need it bad enough: > > Six 1200 watter power supplies for a Sun 4/690MP > Six 2.1gig SCSI differential FH 5.25" HDs from a 4/690MP > Six 1.3gig IPI 5.25" FH HDs from a 4/690MP > 16-slot VME cardcage/backplane/blower assembly from a > Sun 4/690MP > > Five 4/330 / 4/630MP deskside VME chassis > > One SCSI drive shelf and two IPI drive shelves/trays (with > slide rails) for a 19" rack > > Two IBM POWERServer 530 RS/6000 servers, each with 64mb RAM, > 2.3gig Exabyte tape drives, one with CD-ROM and 1gig > HD, both with IBM 3151 amber terminals. AIX 4.1.3 > loaded, with AIX on CD-ROM included. Other stuff > like a 16-port serial breakout box, etc. > > Couple of Toshiba laptops with the orange plasma screen (not > sure about the models, I think one's a 3100 and one > a 5100; I used them for serial terminals) > > If anybody's interested in any of this equipment, please let me know. > I'd love to see it go to a good home where someone cna get some use > out of it, and possibly get something for me to play with in return. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net > mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, > because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." > -- Unknown From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun Nov 7 20:01:49 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem Message-ID: <035101bf298e$d2eaa0b0$d252e780@tower166.office> >> I have seen this on many VR241's when the HT supply is about ready to smoke. > >Which HT supply? The 25kV to the CRT, or the mains supply? If the former, >I think I might be able to track down flyback transformers for it. If the >latter, I've got problems... On the only one that I can recall ever taking a little time on the flyback had smoked. It had displayed those symptoms prior however. I have seen several show those symptoms and within a few days to at most 2 months they went up in smoke. >The PSU in this monitor is _horrible_. It's over-complex and looks almost That and what I can get them for is why I don't take the time. All I can remember for sure (10+ years since I opened one for other than minor adjustments.) is they were a real PITA design. > >Hmm... This is the only VR241 I've seen so far. In any case, my time is >free, I enjoy fixing things, etc... I understand. If I can ever remember to follow through on the 11's over in the London area there will be a few up for grabs if you want one. Dan From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun Nov 7 20:09:33 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: 11/24 backplane - was Re: Wanted: TK50 Cartridges Message-ID: <035201bf298e$d3af9e60$d252e780@tower166.office> >I have an 11/24 CPU - do you have the other supporting cards? The 11/24 >backplane? I have a few spare 11/24 CPU backplanes but it will be a while before I can dig one out. Dan From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 20:22:11 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Just picked up a HUGE PDP-8I and PDP-15 and ..... Message-ID: <19991108022211.16232.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > Here is what I picked up: (lot of questions); > > PDP-8I (came from a former Dec employee): Cool haul. > I hope to have the 8I running early next week (looks like it is plug and > play). Very much so. > Questions: > > 1. How much memory is inside the 8I and what was the stack size, how much > expansion is the MM8Ia s? I can tell you only that there are spaces in the CPU backplane for two 4K stacks. The MM8I's _might_ be 8K each. The standard stack for the -8/i and -8/L is 4K. I am not aware of any larger ones. The external box on my -8/L has two stacks - total of 12K. > 3. I found a board made by digital that says "CMOS-8" (memory),, what model > PDP-8 does this work on? Does it look like an OMNIBUS card? If so, then -8/a and -8/e/f/m. Pretty much there are three types of -8s - transistorized, TTL FLIP-CHIP and ONMIBUS (not including DECmates). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 7 21:27:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: DS3100 Questions Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991107192432.00b129a0@mcmanis.com> I gave the DECStation 3100 to a fellow caretaker and he had some questions I thought I would bring up here to see if there were any easy answers: 1) Is the display adapter on the main board of the DS3100 always monochrome? 2) I found Bruce Lane's description of making a color cable for the 15 pin connector but not the equivalent idea for a monochrome connector. 3) Does anyone have a spare cable? 4) What monitor works with this system? --Chuck From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Nov 7 22:15:22 1999 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Looking for IBM Xenix Message-ID: <012301bf29a1$52b48920$96ea93c3@proteus> Hi, sorry not to have been posting here lately but things have been very hectic with both of my parents being hospitalised. :-( To be brief I'm looking for a copy of IBM Xenix v2.00 to have a play with on my XT-286. Anyone here in the UK able to help, preferably I need a copy WITH the manuals.... *PLEASE* respond directly rather than via the list, although I'm still receiving it I don't have time to read the messages at the moment (it's been nearly two weeks since I have). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From bsa3 at cornell.edu Sun Nov 7 22:57:44 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Help In-Reply-To: <000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester>; from Chester on Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 10:14:35PM +0100 References: <000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester> Message-ID: <19991107235744.A433@cornell.edu> On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 10:14:35PM +0100, Chester wrote: > I have a WANG (WLTC) Laptop with printer, and my operation system > was crashed. I have no any boot disk. I need a boot disk and the > latest operation system. If it's possible please send me some > links, or let me know where I can download If this is the laptop I think it is, you're SOL. The engineers on that one solved the problem of customers being unable to boot due to having a floppy in the disk drive by -- get this -- disabling floppy boot. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "Conjecture has become fact, bsa3@cornell.edu and rumour has become history." PGP: 0x62D6B223 -- _Serial Experiments Lain_ http://skaro.pair.com/ Layer 09: "Protocol" From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 7 23:19:23 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Help In-Reply-To: <19991107235744.A433@cornell.edu> References: <000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester> <000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991107211820.02078100@mcmanis.com> At 11:57 PM 11/7/99 -0500, Brad wrote: >On Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 10:14:35PM +0100, Chester wrote: >If this is the laptop I think it is, you're SOL. The engineers on >that one solved the problem of customers being unable to boot due to >having a floppy in the disk drive by -- get this -- disabling floppy >boot. I've gotten around this in the past by removing the hard drive and installing software on it on a "regular" PC and then re-installing it in the laptop. But if the hard drive is soldered on to the main PC board then you are definitely going to find that challenging. --Chuck From kmcqueen at deseretonline.com Sun Nov 7 23:22:41 1999 From: kmcqueen at deseretonline.com (Keith McQueen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: NorthStar Advantage - Free to a good home. References: <000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester><000c01bf2965$5d8387c0$c56026c2@chester> <4.2.0.58.19991107211820.02078100@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <004701bf29a9$49490fc0$0a0bbed8@n7hmf.ampr.org> I have a vintage NorthStar Advantage computer (Z80, CP/M, 15Meg HD, all-in-one style) that I need to get rid of. Is anyone on the list interested? From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 7 23:55:38 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: NorthStar Advantage - Free to a good home. In-Reply-To: <004701bf29a9$49490fc0$0a0bbed8@n7hmf.ampr.org> from "Keith McQueen" at Nov 7, 99 10:22:41 pm Message-ID: <199911080555.VAA03034@saul7.u.washington.edu> > I have a vintage NorthStar Advantage computer (Z80, CP/M, 15Meg HD, > all-in-one style) that I need to get rid of. Is anyone on the list > interested? Where are you located? -- Derek From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Nov 7 23:54:10 1999 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: More OS wants.... Message-ID: <001401bf29af$08d29fa0$83e993c3@proteus> While I'm thinking about it.... Would anyone (again in the UK) know where I can get a set of (presumably) Microsoft XENIX installation discs for my Jarrogate "Sprite"? Mine came with both CDOS and XENIX installed, but I only got the discs and manuals for CDOS. Also, I've been playing with "Concurrent DOS XM" on a '286 for a few years on and off, but I don't really have the right hardware to run it effectively. So, can anyone please help me out with a compatible EEMS board (AST RAMpage! or RAMpage! 286 AFAIK) or even a copy of Concurrent DOS 386? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Nov 8 00:58:39 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:19pm -0600 1999/11/07, Mitch Wright wrote: > Somewhere you mentioned the company you work for made ucode compilers, >assemblers. Anything left of these products laying around? Depends what you mean by "laying around". We're still using the same basic software (with improvements over the years, of course). Some clients have rights to distribute them (in binary form) on their own terms, so there may be some available somewhere, but I don't know. Unfortunately I am stuck with enough NDAs that I'm not even sure which past example I could name. >Congrats on finding the Xerox machines, I've given up all hope of >getting one. Purely out of curiosity (and not because I intend to sell mine; I don't) I checked ebay; someone sold a Daybreak for about $100 recently. Compared to ebay prices of other things, this suggests they are not *too* rare. I don't even want to *think* about how much I could sell the 8010 for there, if I were to invoke the "S" word (even though mine has probably always run Lisp, and is, by its memory and disk, clearly a late instance as well). Don't tell me; I want to keep it :-) A co-worker picked up the other of the two available Daybreaks; if he gets tired of it, I'll let him know you might be interested. On 1999/11/06 at 7:15pm +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >But I've heard that the Daybreak uses the 80186 to load the control store >at boot time. Whether it can load the control store once the machine has >booted, or whether you have to rewrite the entire microcode and then >reboot the machine (Ouch! I hope not), I don't know. Part of the manual I've read mentions that the 80186 loads the control store during booting "and debugging". I haven't yet seen how; I suspect the details are not in any manual I have. >Yes, I am on a dial-up connection, using an ancient 14k4 bps modem. And I >generally start after 18:00, since that's when phonecalls become a little >cheaper in the UK (is that the case elsewhere?) In most of North America, a flat line charge includes unlimited local calls; that's why people here throw around binaries with abandon. >[....] I know I'm >missing the keyboard and mouse (I picked it up cheap at a radio rally >(hamfest), so I am not complaining). So I'll have to figure out the >interface for those as well.... "The keyboard/interface uses the receive half of the i8251A interface chip" suggests it's one-way communication. "... receive from the keyboard as a differential signal pair by a 75176A receiver chip." I don't know; does this imply RS232-compatible levels? "... asynchronous serial interface with a data rate of 9600bps". I do not see the protocol documented, but by the time you get around to your machine, I should be able to hang my keyboard and mouse on some serial port and/or logic analyzer to work it out. >If fuse 1 blows even with A and B disconnected, then it's very likely >that the transformer has shorted turns. After removing the transformer, I believe I've confirmed shorted turns on one half of the primary. Assuming no shorts in the secondaries, would this not mean that the voltage I measured (15V) is an upper bound on the correct voltage? [moved:] >If all else fails, dismantle the old transformer, unwind the wire, and >count the turns. I'm not sure I can do this accurately enough; the outermost layers seem inextricably stuck in some hard resin-ish stuff. >Still, all is not lost. There are >ways to make some likely guesses as to what the transformer should be. It appears to drive half of the front panel board -- the non-LED part. Now, there's a 5V regulator (SG340K-5) there. The output is clearly Vcc for the TTL on this half. The ground is clearly GND for the TTL and is connected to one line from the secondary. The input of the regulator -- I might be wrong again but I've double-checked -- is connected to the other line of the secondary through a single diode (in other words, it seems to be a half-wave); there's a 1000uF to ground. So, one of the things I need to do is keep the regulator happy, which seems straightforward; the question is whether the rest of the circuit imposes tighter constraints. I can't easily trace it all because some traces are hidden by the soldered-in TTL or the capacitor glued across vital parts of the back of the board, so I'm trying to go by what I can see and by considering why it's there. I can only think of two reasons why this might need AC rather than just using the main power supply. It might be a power-fail indicator, but I think that's implausible; since the machine has semiconductor memory and power-hungry disks, there's nothing it could *do* on power fail. And it does not seem consistent with the parts on the board. But if this *were* the case, it would presumably tightly constrain the required secondary voltage. The other possibility I can think of is that it's a line-based clock/timer. There are further diodes and resistors feeding (in a manner I can't fully trace) a pulse generator (74123) whose output appears on the cable from the front panel to the I/O board, and a trigger/inverter (7414) which, I think, drives counters (74LS163) leading to a flip/flop (74LS74) whose output likewise appears on the cable. Does this sound plausible? And would it impose any tight constraints on the transformer output? -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 8 02:03:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: (message from Kevin Schoedel on Mon, 8 Nov 1999 01:58:39 -0500) References: Message-ID: <19991108080349.24472.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin Schoedel wrote: > "The keyboard/interface uses the receive half of the i8251A interface > chip" suggests it's one-way communication. "... receive from the > keyboard as a differential signal pair by a 75176A receiver chip." I > don't know; does this imply RS232-compatible levels? No, it's an EIA-422 differential pair. Not really even close to EIA-232, although it wouldn't take too much circuitry to convert. If you had a device with an EIA-232 output that you wanted to hook up to the 6085 keyboard port, you'd just need an EIA-232 receiver section from a part such as a MAX232, and an EIA-422 (or EIA-485) driver section from a part like a 75176 or MC3487. > "... asynchronous > serial interface with a data rate of 9600bps". I do not see the protocol > documented, but by the time you get around to your machine, I should be > able to hang my keyboard and mouse on some serial port and/or logic > analyzer to work it out. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd suspect that it sends non-ASCII keycodes, with a separate make and break code for each key. From ignatios at cs.uni-bonn.de Mon Nov 8 03:57:19 1999 From: ignatios at cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLT In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>; from Chuck McManis on Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:06:09PM -0800 References: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991108105719.D16064@theory.cs.uni-bonn.de> On Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:06:09PM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, buried under a pile of stuff was a little tiny VAX. A VAXStation > 4000/VLC, what the heck is that? Can I netboot it? Cluster it? can it run > headless? VL_C_, not _T_ as in the original subject? I managed to half netboot one of them a long while ago, that is: they have some sort of MOP that cooperates. I don't remember how much actually worked, and besides, this will have changed now. Regards, -is -- * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) From ignatios at cs.uni-bonn.de Mon Nov 8 04:00:38 1999 From: ignatios at cs.uni-bonn.de (Ignatios Souvatzis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/VLT In-Reply-To: <19991108105719.D16064@theory.cs.uni-bonn.de>; from Ignatios Souvatzis on Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 10:57:19AM +0100 References: <4.1.19991105170304.04355d00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <19991108105719.D16064@theory.cs.uni-bonn.de> Message-ID: <19991108110038.E16064@theory.cs.uni-bonn.de> On Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 10:57:19AM +0100, Ignatios Souvatzis wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 05:06:09PM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ok, buried under a pile of stuff was a little tiny VAX. A VAXStation > > 4000/VLC, what the heck is that? Can I netboot it? Cluster it? can it run > > headless? > > VL_C_, not _T_ as in the original subject? > I managed to half netboot one of them a long while ago, that is: they have > some sort of MOP that cooperates. I don't remember how much actually worked, > and besides, this will have changed now. Forgot to write what it is: Small little nice desktop machine. Builtin scsi and ethernet and even audio. You just need to write the missing device drivers... -is -- * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) From illogix at ihug.com.au Mon Nov 8 05:10:34 1999 From: illogix at ihug.com.au (Jason Oakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: 8bit Classic Computer IRC Channel? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991108221007.009698e0@pop.ozemail.com.au> Does anybody know of irc channels for Classic Computers? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 07:03:13 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: DS3100 Questions References: <4.2.0.58.19991107192432.00b129a0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <99110808045302.26303@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 07 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >I gave the DECStation 3100 to a fellow caretaker and he had some questions >I thought I would bring up here to see if there were any easy answers: > 1) Is the display adapter on the main board of the DS3100 always monochrome? No. The vsimm determines whether the frame buffer operates in 8-bit or 1-bit mode. Simply insert a "color vsimm" (more memory for more bitplanes, nothing more) and you've got a color framebuffer. > 4) What monitor works with this system? VR290 and VR299 at the very least. Definitely others as well but those are the only ones I've used. -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 8 07:24:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: NorthStar Advantage - Free to a good home. In-Reply-To: <004701bf29a9$49490fc0$0a0bbed8@n7hmf.ampr.org> Message-ID: I'd love to, assuming shipping is not a problem. Where are You? Allison On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Keith McQueen wrote: > I have a vintage NorthStar Advantage computer (Z80, CP/M, 15Meg HD, > all-in-one style) that I need to get rid of. Is anyone on the list > interested? > From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Nov 8 08:10:06 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III References: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> <38121514.56B676F3@idirect.com> <19991024193724.17734.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3826D9BE.20615BEB@idirect.com> >Eric Smith wrote: > > Based on the data within the above tables (and at the URL), > > there seems no doubt that DEC practised their usual > > antics back in the 1980s when they practised their standard > > marketing policy of adding "nothing". From my experience > > with CompacTape and CompacTape II, I can definitely > > say that these two tapes ARE VERY DIFFERENT: > > The CompacTape is usually labelled with a BROWN > > designation and the CompacTape II is usually BLUE!! > > Does anyone remember if there was also a price difference > > between CompacTape and CompacTape II????????? > Yes. The CompacTape II (TK70) tape was certified for use in the TK70 > drive. I suspect that the TK70 drive used more tracks than the TK50, > but I haven't dug up specifications to be sure. > > Before you jump all over DEC for doing this, remember that it was (and is) > standard practice in the entire disk and tape media industry to offer > the same media at different certification levels for different prices. Jerome Fine replies: If you want the specifications for the various tapes that were called Compac I,II,III along with the DLT tapes, look at: http://www.anacomp.com/Magnetics/Memorex/m-ctdlt.html which provides all sorts of additional information. Is it possible that the price difference of between 40% and 50% that I see in a catalogue from about 10 years ago was solely for the change from a BROWN "CompacTape" designation to the BLUE "CompacTape II" designation? Just as some companies that offered different density floppy diskettes or double-sided diskettes at different prices but with the identical media and charged a premium price, I am somewhat suspicious that even if DEC followed different certification procedures for the CompacTape II vs those for the CompacTape that there would be even a noticeable difference in the cost of producing the CompacTape II. And without any evidence on your part that there were any certification levels for the CompacTape II that were different from those for the CompacTape (let alone that if there were some that they cost any more or that the cost amounted to any more than a few cents per CompacTape II), I suggest that you provide at least some proof that you know that such certification levels existed along with the actual additional costs. Incidentally, I noticed in the same 10 year old catalogue that DEC RX50 and DEC RX33 diskettes were also priced far above standard prices in the market for identical products. For example, the RX33 is identical to a PC HD 5 1/4" floppy, yet DEC was charging close to $ 50.00 per box of 10 RX33 simply because there was an RX33 label. I notice in the same URL reference that the "CompacTape III" was specified for all 3 tape drives: TK85, TZ86 and TZ87. Was it possible that DEC realized that the so-called "standard practice in the entire disk and tape media industry to offer the same media" for use in different drives such as the TK50/TK70 (BUT UNDER A DIFFERENT LABEL) was no longer reasonable and so long as the same media was going to be used for all 3 drives (BUT at substantially different capacity), it would be much more reasonable for all 3 tape drives to use the same media (a CompacTape III instead of III, IV and V)? All I am asking is that if you have actual proof that there were different certification levels for CompacTape and CompacTape II that you provide such proof along with the additional cost. Otherwise, I must assume that the only reason for the 40% to 50% increase in cost was the so-called "standard practice in the entire industry" of charging more when it was possible to do so. I realize that DEC produced both hardware and software products of superior quality.... BUT.... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From awcl at awcoldstream.com Mon Nov 8 09:12:48 1999 From: awcl at awcoldstream.com (awcl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Digital-PC350-D Message-ID: <3826E870.904504CE@awcoldstream.com> Hi All, I found Digital PC350-D workstation last weekend. This has a 5MB hard drive, six card slots that goes in (four in there) and 5.25 floppy. Key board is attached to the monitor. It started once and looks like vertical scan on monitor is gone. Any one has a manual for that beast?? Anil From icarikci at atauni.edu.tr Mon Nov 8 09:09:07 1999 From: icarikci at atauni.edu.tr (ihsan =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C7ar=FDkc=FD?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <3826E792.E949803F@atauni.edu.tr> Dear Sir, 08.11.1999 I have a notebook of a model named 486 DX. I have a great difficulty with it. In its bios, there is a code number. I can't decode it. The bios number of the notebook is Amibios (c) 1992 American Megatrends PM BIOS 050042. (7500 E P10 092894) I Will be appreciated if you can send me the method that you decode your notebooks. Looking forward to hearing from you. Ihsan ?arikci E-Mail Adress: icarikci@atauni.edu.tr From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 8 10:06:45 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Digital-PC350-D In-Reply-To: <3826E870.904504CE@awcoldstream.com> from awcl at "Nov 8, 1999 9:12:48 am" Message-ID: <199911081608.LAA25821@pechter.dyndns.org> > Hi All, > > I found Digital PC350-D workstation last weekend. This has a 5MB hard > drive, six card slots that goes in (four in there) and 5.25 floppy. Key > board is attached to the monitor. It started once and looks like > vertical scan on monitor is gone. > > Any one has a manual for that beast?? > > Anil > > That's a DEC Pro350... I've got no manuals but I have one here. There's a lot of folks with 'em. What do you need to know? Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Nov 8 10:15:43 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? References: <4.2.0.58.19991106124502.009dfe80@mcmanis.com> <4.2.0.58.19991106165108.0215a3f0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <010401bf2a04$8372d540$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Experience with Dilog DQ696-20? > At 04:29 PM 11/6/99 -0700, emanuel wrote: > >Try interleave 2. I just tried it, and it is much faster. > >should be ready in 1 hour ;-) > It is *MUCH* faster. So it seems to me, that the dilog is to slow for the 15 MBit data rate of the drive. (it misses the next sector ?) I checked it here, with the maxtor xt8760 and get same results. (formating with interleave 1, appr 8 hours, interleave 2, appr 40 minutes) smaller & older drives (10 MBit and below) have no problems with interleave 1. cheers, emanuel From SzewczykM at hcgi.com Mon Nov 8 10:30:03 1999 From: SzewczykM at hcgi.com (Mike Szewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 Message-ID: <6F4FA42A5405D211B15D006094A3CD9F0257AF74@mail.hcgi.com> James, Sorry to hear about your mother, but what about her passing made you need to boot an old computer? Mike -----Original Message----- From: James L. Rice [mailto:jrice@texoma.net] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 12:51 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Tandy 2000 I was given a Tandy 2000 recently. Due to the death of my mother this week I just tried to boot it. It puts the 256k memeory message on the screen and the floppy drive light comes on but it never seems to boot. I recieved a boot disk copy with the machine and have ordered a MSDOS/Basic boot disk from RSU but no resultds. Any common prblem I should look for? I've already reversed the floppy drives with the same results. James -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From jrice at texoma.net Mon Nov 8 10:54:43 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 References: <6F4FA42A5405D211B15D006094A3CD9F0257AF74@mail.hcgi.com> Message-ID: <38270052.F8245022@texoma.net> Nothing about her death made me want to boot the T2K, I just haven't had time to look at it during the past few weeks during her hospitalization. Mike Szewczyk wrote: > James, > > Sorry to hear about your mother, but what about her passing made you need to > boot an old computer? > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: James L. Rice [mailto:jrice@texoma.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 12:51 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Tandy 2000 > > I was given a Tandy 2000 recently. Due to the death of my mother this > week I just tried to boot it. It puts the 256k memeory message on the > screen and the floppy drive light comes on but it never seems to boot. > I recieved a boot disk copy with the machine and have ordered a > MSDOS/Basic boot disk from RSU but no resultds. Any common prblem I > should look for? I've already reversed the floppy drives with the same > results. > > James > -- > ICQ 2286850 > Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice > Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html > Robotics Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html > All pages under construction! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 8 11:23:24 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: 8bit Classic Computer IRC Channel? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991108221007.009698e0@pop.ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19991108092000.00be25b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Does anybody know of irc channels for Classic Computers? Interestingly I can't use IRC because I haven't written a packet filter for my firewall, but I can use AOL's Instant Messenger. Strangely enough, in spite of the AOL name and the perniciousness(sp?) of this thing when you load up Netscape Communicator, my sister convinced me to try it out (you don't need an AOL account or anything, just follow the prompts to sign up for a "screen" name. And then when you are online it is fairly easy to send out a quick question or have a short conversation without the 'lag' associated with near real time email that sometimes happens on this list. --Chuck (pdpguy on AIM) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Nov 8 11:25:05 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: [Sol-20 Restoration: further adventures..] In-Reply-To: <3826F78D.8ED13459@mail.intel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Charles Eicher wrote: > I've been periodically posting updates on my restoration project of my > old Processor Technology Sol-20. These usually coincide with pleas for > help. Now may be such a time. > I can't remember any commands, so I just try typing on the keyboard. No > response... > The LEDs are dead, or I'm not getting any power to the keyboard... > Darn it, the keyboard is attached, although there are two extremely > similar non-keyed molex connectors right next to each other, maybe > its connected wrong. I vaguely recall this being a problem once, about > 20 years ago. Hmm.. time to dive back into the construction manual > again. Keyboard goes to J3, the one nearest the center of the mainboard. Fortunately (by accident or design), connecting the keyboard to the wrong jack rarely causes any damage... > But I have a failed keyboard. Its a damn shame > because one of the strengths of the Sol was its professional quality > keyboard. > Hope its not anything internal, these PT keyboards were shipped > assembled from the factory, there's not anything you can do to repair > that I know of. And I was really good at fixing keyboards, so maybe I'll > figure it out. If anyone has suggestions or prior experience with this > sort of problem, please chip in your 2cents. Well... unless the keyboard has been vacuum sealed for the last 20 years, I can pretty much say with certainty that the contact pads in the mechanism have deterioriated. They can be repaired however. (I've done a lot of them) I have replacement contact kits available as well as keyboard rebuild services. Details are available on my web site on the 'Parts/Objects/Services' page... with the contacts gone, the keyboard will appear to be totally dead in most cases, although I have not seen too many serious logic failures on them. (YMMV) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From denic at liii.com Mon Nov 8 11:57:49 1999 From: denic at liii.com (Dennis N. Aruta) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter (fwd) Message-ID: Was Referred to you by Stan below. Am trying to establish the value of these items if any? Dennis Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:44:57 -0800 (PST) From: Stan Sieler To: Dennis N. Aruta Subject: Re: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter Hi, thanks for the note. Unfortunately, I'm not currently looking for any teletypes. If you're looking for a collector to take them, try emailing to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) & International Commerce List (c), INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE + SHIPS Visit my Message Board ICQ #174727 Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com DenicNY@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:24:56 -0500 (EST) From: Dennis N. Aruta To: aek@spies.com, auction@coastroad.com, broswell@syssrc.com, bschluter@middleatlantic.com, daniel@internet.look.ca, doyle@indy.net, ebay@vintagecomputers.com, jamesog@mail.resa.net, mikem@subether.com, redison@cyberzone.net, reyes@orion.ae.utexas.edu, sieler@allegro.com Subject: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter Dear Sirs and madams, I noticed your bidding on EBAY for vintage computers. Perhaps you may have some interest in these machines? Currently have 3 ASR 33's 2 with omni modems, one with relays 1 KSR 33 programable 1 Friden Flexowriter, that I saw as imput to a cray computer at a computer museum on the web. Dennis From charlesII at nwonline.net Mon Nov 8 12:02:21 1999 From: charlesII at nwonline.net (Charles Oblender) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Is this a modem? Message-ID: <3827102B.A4A20284@nwonline.net> I have recently acquired what looks like a modem. It has the FCC certification for a modem and has a jack for voice equipment 8 conductor multi-line. But when connected to my VT-220 it does not act like a modem. No response to Hayes commands won't even give me a error message. It is a Line Miser DOV 640 by Gandalf Data Limited. Charles From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 8 12:23:09 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Is this a modem? Message-ID: <991108132309.20200173@trailing-edge.com> >I have recently acquired what looks like a modem. It has the FCC >certification for a modem and has a jack for voice equipment 8 conductor >multi-line. But when connected to my VT-220 it does not act like a >modem. No response to Hayes commands won't even give me a error >message. To put it bluntly, not all modems are Hayes compatible. Especially if the modem is answer-only or for some specialized application. > It is a Line Miser DOV 640 by Gandalf Data Limited. The Gandalf equipment that I'm familiar with are communications multiplexers - it's likely (especially given the "Line Miser" name) that what you've got there is a synchronous modem intended to connect to a terminal multiplexer. It may even be intended for applications over leased lines (i.e. no dial tones). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 8 13:45:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <3826D9BE.20615BEB@idirect.com> (message from Jerome Fine on Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:10:06 -0500) References: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> <38121514.56B676F3@idirect.com> <19991024193724.17734.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3826D9BE.20615BEB@idirect.com> Message-ID: <19991108194507.28446.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > All I am asking is that if you have actual proof that there were different > certification levels for CompacTape and CompacTape II that you > provide such proof along with the additional cost. Otherwise, I > must assume that the only reason for the 40% to 50% increase > in cost was the so-called "standard practice in the entire industry" > of charging more when it was possible to do so. I don't have "proof". Do you have proof of "standard practice in the entire industry"? You can assume whatever you want, but reality won't bend to conform to your assumptions. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 12:46:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: VR241 vertical linearity problem In-Reply-To: <035101bf298e$d2eaa0b0$d252e780@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Nov 7, 99 09:01:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991108/54a224d3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:00:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 8, 99 01:58:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3507 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991108/7c3e5ae5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:50:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Digital-PC350-D In-Reply-To: <3826E870.904504CE@awcoldstream.com> from "awcl" at Nov 8, 99 09:12:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1842 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991108/3328a3ca/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:36:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: <19991108080349.24472.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 8, 99 08:03:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991108/7be2715f/attachment.ksh From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 8 15:49:07 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:25 2005 Subject: Strange boards in Apple//e Message-ID: <1999118134123241@ix.netcom.com> 'ello I just picked up an Apple IIe and it has some strange boards Board1 an eprom chip is covered with a label "SSB-1" there is a 10 pin ribbon cable connector that goes to a 9 pin female connector on the back plate. the biggest chip on the board is a SYU6551a - serial board of some kind? Board 2 Says Digicard D-Net and has a wire that goes to a board in slot 1. biggest chip is an am8530h- 6pc Board 3 also says Digicard, The largest chip has a label that says "Digicard Video Network V1.5" very mysterios. I tookem out. ron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 16:16:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Strange boards in Apple//e In-Reply-To: <1999118134123241@ix.netcom.com> from "rhudson@ix.netcom.com" at Nov 8, 99 04:49:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991108/2b6369a9/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Nov 8 19:19:38 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? Message-ID: <4.1.19991108171802.0408bed0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Is there a diagnostic image that is bootable via MOP on a VAX that does diagnostics? I'm interested in testing some Q-bus boards of unknown integrity and this would seem to be one way to do it. I have the capability to write a bootable MOP image but before I write my own diagnostics I thought I'd see what else had been done. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 8 19:27:30 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? Message-ID: <991108202730.202001b5@trailing-edge.com> >Is there a diagnostic image that is bootable via MOP on a VAX that does >diagnostics? Hmm, you said XXDP in the title, then you ask about VAX in the body. But no, I don't know of any net-bootable diagnostics for -11's or VAXen. > I'm interested in testing some Q-bus boards of unknown >integrity and this would seem to be one way to do it. I have the capability >to write a bootable MOP image but before I write my own diagnostics I >thought I'd see what else had been done. The easiest way to do this, I think, would be to boot full-fledged VMS from another VMScluster member. You know, VMS, that OS that has had clustering for fifteen years or so now? :-) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Nov 8 19:27:43 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1999/11/08 at 8:00pm +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >I paid \pounds 10.00 for mine (machine + monitor + cartridge tape drive + >floppy drive) at a radio rally (hamfest). No idea if it works or not, of >course, but I was _very_ happy with that price. I actually paid more for mine, because it looks too much like a modern PC, and *less* for the 8010, because it's obviously too old to be good for anything. >[....] >I wanted it to compare against the PERQs. From what I can see from >glancing at the Daybreak there are similarities. I still owe a summary of the microinstructions; unfortunately my 'main' machine is a 'classic' in its own right (i.e. it's old) and one of its disks, containing my notes, suddenly and catastrophically failed yesterday. Here is a very brief summary: 00 - 03 rA 2901 register number 04 - 07 rB 2901 register number 08 - 10 aS 2901 alu sources (A,Q; A,B; 0,Q; 0,B; 0A, D,A; D,Q; D,0) 11 - 13 aF 2901 alu op; the table in the manual is obviously botched 14 - 15 aD 2901 destination (values for rB, Q, Y bus) 16 - 19 Cin,enU,mem carry in; memory op (cycle dependent); U register op 20 - 23 fS determines interpretation of fY and fZ fields 24 - 27 fX misc operations (mostly seq call/ret, push/pop) 28 - 31 fY misc, encoded per fS, includes branch ops, or immediate constant 32 - 35 fZ misc, encoded per fS, or immediate constant 36 - 47 INIA immediate next address The next address is the INIA field optionally ORed with bits determined by branch ops in the previous instruction. Cycles are grouped in "clicks" of three cycles (c1, c2, c3) which determine the interpretation of the 'mem' bit: address, read, write. Five clicks form a "round". There are multiple (presumably six) microinstruction pointers ("tasks"), corresponding to clicks in a round. Each click in a round is associated permanently with and I/O service routine; during any particular click, either that I/O routine executes (if the device so requests) or else the macroinstruction interpreter executes. Besides the 2901 R registers, there is a 16 x 8-bit RH register set, grouped with the corresponding R registers to form memory addresses. There is also a 256-word external register set U, 16 words of which can be quickly accessed by a stack pointer. The large gate array on the CPU board is the sequencer/decoder; the smaller one is the bus controller. >Yes, I know the Daybreak is by far the most common D-machine, but that >doesn't mean it's not worth saving. And it's the only D-machine I'm >likely to find. I didn't mean to suggest they wouldn't be worth saving. I'd never pass over a non- commodity-microprocessor machine at any tolerable price. (I've even bought uninteresting machines (cheaply) from that same source just to make sure that they know that 'big, old' computers are *saleable* and should not be scrapped. Anyone want three Sun 3/160's?) >Incidentally, sorting out Xerox stuff is made harder because many of the >ICs are house-coded with 733W... numbers. Sometimes you can guess the >equivalents. But if anyone has a cross-reference list.... On mine, there are *very* few parts that have 733 numbers only. Nearly all have only obviously generic numbers (e.g. 74LSxx), or both generic and house numbers. The schematics appear to use only generic numbers. >[....] >OK, I've pulled the I/O processor from my machine and done a little >looking (FWIW, this is not 'trivial' info, as it took me more than 10 >minutes to figure out :-))... The documents contain some schematics, but in their current form (PDF bitmaps) it's really difficult to find anything in particular. Once I'm able to print them it should be possible to find things more easily. >[....] >The pinout of the keyboard connector (a DE-9) seems to be : > >1 A (One differential I/O signal from the 75176) >2 B (the other one) >3 Ground >4 +5V >5 Open collector output, driven by another bit of a '273?? Keyboard reset. >6 +5V >7 Ground "unused" >8 High-current-ish transistor output. Maybe to drive a speaker Yes. >9 Open collector output (from a '06). Input to this driver from TxD of > the 8251? Can't find it. Noted on the schematic: 1 start bit, 8 data, 1 stop; 1 to 3 bytes of keyboard/mouse data per event. >>From what I remember, the keyboard connector links to a PCB in the stand >of the monitor that has a DIN socket for the actual keyboard and also >links to the speaker. Unfortunately, the monitor is not easy to get to at >the moment, so I can't quickly check this, or look at pinouts, etc. One >day... This is probably somewhere in the document as well, but I don't see it. >[....] >You know, I'd almost be inclined to try a 9V or 12V transformer and see >what happens... I'll probably try that next. The machine ran for a few seconds on my initial trial (before the first fuse blew), when there obviously was already a problem, which suggests that the voltage is not too terribly critical. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Nov 8 19:36:33 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Auction - More Items & Pictures Added Message-ID: <382a7a15.79833154@insight> No bids on most items as yet. New items added 11/3/99 and 11/5/99. Take a look. I've reorganized the page so it loads fast - just text, with links to the pictures. Added pictures of most items. http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computer-sale.htm --- Bill's Classic Computer Emporium and Junque Sale This will be conducted as a sealed-bid auction. High bidder takes the item. Please bid by e-mailing your bid (minimum of $10 on each item) to bill_r@inetnebr.com (that's bill(underscore)r). Please include the item number, description, your bid amount, and your e-mail and snail-mail address and telephone number in each bid. Bids will be accepted through November 30th, 1999, although some items may close early if I receive what I feel is a reasonable offer and/or have not seen much interest in an item. In addition to the amount stated in the bid, the high bidder also agrees to pay actual packing and shipping costs, and insurance if desired, or to arrange to pick the item(s) up in Lincoln, Nebraska. Seller reserves the right to withdraw items from or add items to the auction at any time. Payment by cashier's check or money order will result in faster shipment. Payment by personal check will delay shipment until the check clears. All items are AS-IS, and no guarantee of any kind is made with regard to operability, suitability for application, safety, or completeness. Descriptions are as honest and accurate as possible; if you have specific questions about an item and are serious about placing a bid, please e-mail me at the above address and I'll try to provide additional information. This is all stuff I've collected over the years and no longer have room to keep - I'd rather not get rid of it, but at least I'd like to see it go to someone who will enjoy it and appreciate it. (Most item descriptions below can be clicked to see pictures and/or additional information on the item!) #1) Working Zenith H-89 with non-working dual external 5 1/4" floppy drive box and pix of documentation & software including HDOS, CP/M, etc. Clean and neat, with builder's name on top corner in magic marker. #2) Non-working Zenith H-89 with internal 5 1/4" floppy drives (no documentation or software). No picture available, but it looks like this (without the external floppy box on top). #3) Apple computer plotter. Worked when last used a couple of years ago. Very dusty. #4) Big box of assorted software, some old, some new. Includes WordPerfect 6.0, Tallgrass Technologies tape software, IBM DOS, etc. No guarantee that any of it is complete, but I believe a lot of it is. #5) US Robotics Courier HST Dual Standard. Worked when last used. Has been sitting on top of bookshelf and is somewhat dusty. #6) Friden mechanical calculator - two available. Stored in basement; very moldy - maybe some rust. A working one (which I am keeping) does square roots, long division, etc. Chugs along for a while sliding the carriage across the top and turning the number wheels, then does a "carriage return" and rings a bell when finished. Model STW10, Serial #'s 634453 and 644615. #7) "Fulcrum Computer Products" S-100 box. Turnkey front panel - no lights & switches. Also no top cover. Contains partially populated S-100 backplane & hefty IMSAI-style power supply. (This may have *been* an IMSAI OEM of some kind.) #8) IBM 5151 green screen monitor. Dusty. Unknown condition. #9) IBM EGA monitor. Dusty. Unknown condition. #10) IBM PC chassis with dual floppy drives & power supply. Some kind of motherboard; don't know if it's original or not. #11) Modem Tester. Appears to send test data via RS-232 at various speeds & patterns, while counting errors. Display (nixie tubes) lights up & counts. Unknown condition. #12) Tandy video monitor. Dusty. Unknown condition. #13) IBM 5151 monitor. Dusty. Unknown condition. #14) Okidata Microline 192 printer. Believed to be functional. Plastic shipping film still on front panel. Dusty. #15) Radio Shack TRS-80 Line Printer VI. Somewhat grungy. Small bit of surface rust on rollers. #16) Radio Shack printer/plotter. Very good condition. Was working when last used. Stored with dust cover - nice & clean. With manual! #17) Telex 201 printer. Unknown condition. #18) Tracer 5 - 5 1/4" diskette duplicator. Comes with drive & output bin. Worked when last used. Very dusty. #19 & #20) Kontron "KLA" Logic analyzer (2 available) - they boot up and display a menu; other than that, I know nothing about them. Some documentation available. Data pods (?) included. Very heavy to ship (50+ lbs each). #21) TRS-80 Model 1 computer (non-functional; stopped working and was shelved). Nice & clean - includes monitor, 2 external floppy drives, and expansion interface. #22) 3 1/2" floppy duplicator (IBM 720Kb only). Auto-loads up to 100 diskettes. Was working when taken out of service. Includes spring-loaded output bin. Slightly dusty. #23) Box of miscellaneous PC/XT cards. Includes an assorment of 10-12 monochrome, CGA, EGA, & VGA video cards, several IBM base-band network cards and hub, 8-10 Arcnet cards, floppy controllers, hard drive controllers, 1200 bps modem cards, serial & Parallel adapters, many 4Mb/s token-ring cards, and other miscellaneous cards for a total of about Items Added on 11/3/99: #24) COBAR 3132 CRT Terminal with 2 keyboards. Worked when last used. Dusty. #25) Beehive MicroB1 Video Terminal. Was working when last used. #26) Hazeltine 1000 Video Terminal. Was working, but quit and was shelved. #27) IBM Wheelprinter E. Worked when last used. Very dusty. #28) Tektronix Type 532 Oscilloscope with Type CA Dual Trace Plug-in. On cart with wheels. Working, but needs TLC. #29) "ii200" Terminal. Not certain of the manufacturer. It's huge, with a monochrome display and a separate keyboard. #30) Tallgrass Technologies "TG-5025" external 24MB (yes, megabyte!) Hard Drive with integrated 60MB Tape Backup. Unknown condition; cosmetically good. Includes manual in original binder and IBM PC driver on original 5 1/4" diskette. Dusty! #31) IBM EGA Video Monitor. Condition uncertain, but believed to have been working when last used. #32) Tandy 1000 Computer System with Tandy color monitor and keyboard. Includes "Zuckerboard" memory expansion card. #33) Tandy 2000 Computer System with keyboard. Items Added on 11/5/99: #34) Compaq Deskpro 386s - complete system including monitor, keyboard, and user's manual, in mint condition! #35) Panasonic Hand-Held Computer (HHC) with printer/cassette interface. #35) Panasonic Hand-Held Computer (HHC) with printer/cassette interface. (another one) #36) Sencore PS 163 Oscilloscope. Schematic included. Works for 2-3 minutes, then trace fades away. Turn off for 5-10 minutes and it comes back. #37) Gorilla composite monitor. Unknown condition. #38) IBM PC Jr. infrared chicklet keyboard. Worked when last used. (4 available) #39) External Hayes-compatible 2400 baud modem (10 available) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Nov 8 19:38:07 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Strange boards in Apple//e In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 08, 1999 10:16:26 PM Message-ID: <199911090138.SAA15228@calico.litterbox.com> > > > an eprom chip is covered with a label "SSB-1" there is a 10 pin ribbon cable connector > > that goes to a 9 pin female connector on the back plate. the biggest chip on the board is a > > SYU6551a - serial board of some kind? > > The 6551 is a fairly common asychronous serial chip (with an internal > buad rate generator IIRC). This board is probably a clone of the Apple > Super Serial card or something like that. > > > > > Board 2 > > Says Digicard D-Net and has a wire that goes to a board in slot 1. biggest chip is an am8530h- > > 6pc > > THe 8530 is a complex sync/async serial chip IIRC. It's the one used in > the Macintosh, etc. This could be some kind of network card (based on the > name), although it may well not use any well-known protocol. > Bet this is an appletalk network card. Rare birds, those. > > > > Board 3 > > > > also says Digicard, The largest chip has a label that says "Digicard Video Network V1.5" > > No idea on this one. Me neither. Maybe a higher resolution video card? > > -tony > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 8 19:56:19 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Strange boards in Apple//e In-Reply-To: <199911090138.SAA15228@calico.litterbox.com> References: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 08, 1999 10:16:26 PM Message-ID: >> > Board 2 >> > Says Digicard D-Net and has a wire that goes to a board in slot 1. >>biggest chip is an am8530h- >> > 6pc >> >> THe 8530 is a complex sync/async serial chip IIRC. It's the one used in >> the Macintosh, etc. This could be some kind of network card (based on the >> name), although it may well not use any well-known protocol. >> > >Bet this is an appletalk network card. Rare birds, those. Sheesh, I typed "digicard D-net apple" into www.Dogpile.com search engine and got the following, which is what it really is. http://www.arnatech.com/model.html An older proprietary networking scheme. Last update of the site looks like 1996, but it "sounds" like some files may be available. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 20:16:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 8, 99 08:27:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9274 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/0893feb3/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Mon Nov 8 20:34:54 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter (fwd) References: Message-ID: <007501bf2a5b$023b6260$0101a8c0@jay> I am a collector and might be interested in an ASR33. What might you unload one for? Thanks! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis N. Aruta To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 11:57 AM Subject: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter (fwd) > Was Referred to you by Stan below. > Am trying to establish the value of these items if any? > Dennis > > Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:44:57 -0800 (PST) > From: Stan Sieler > To: Dennis N. Aruta > Subject: Re: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter > > Hi, > > thanks for the note. Unfortunately, I'm not currently looking > for any teletypes. If you're looking for a collector to take them, > try emailing > > to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > -- > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > > Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) & International Commerce List (c), > > > INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE + SHIPS > > > Visit my Message Board > > > ICQ #174727 > > Mailing address: > Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 > P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 > New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 > U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com > DenicNY@aol.com > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:24:56 -0500 (EST) > From: Dennis N. Aruta > To: aek@spies.com, auction@coastroad.com, broswell@syssrc.com, > bschluter@middleatlantic.com, daniel@internet.look.ca, doyle@indy.net, > ebay@vintagecomputers.com, jamesog@mail.resa.net, mikem@subether.com, > redison@cyberzone.net, reyes@orion.ae.utexas.edu, sieler@allegro.com > Subject: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter > > Dear Sirs and madams, > I noticed your bidding on EBAY for vintage computers. > Perhaps you may have some interest in these machines? > Currently have 3 ASR 33's 2 with omni modems, one with relays > 1 KSR 33 programable > 1 Friden Flexowriter, that I saw as imput to a cray > computer at a computer museum on the web. > > Dennis > > > > > > > From west at tseinc.com Mon Nov 8 20:35:43 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: (3) ASR 33, KSR 33, Friden Flexowriter (fwd) (sorry about that last post)! References: Message-ID: <007d01bf2a5b$1f2b86c0$0101a8c0@jay> Sorry about that! Brain fry... From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Nov 8 21:34:15 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1999/11/09 at 2:16am +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >Ouch... This is starting to sound complicated... I think it ranks as the second most complicated machine I've seen. Most I've seen are much more like the PERQ in spirit: alu, registers, simple sequencer, straightforward muxes. >[...] >I'd read somewhere that the Daybreak CPU was all standard chips. This had >confused me, because I couldn't figure out what on earth these 2 chips >were. I'd initially assumed they were custom gate arrays -- looks like I >was right :-( The internals don't appear to be documented in anything I've seen so far. >[...] >You are very lucky. My machine is almost all 733 numbers :-(. I think we >should attempt to compile a cross-reference. I'll put it on my list of things to do when my brain isn't working. Should be done soon.... >You have schematics??? How complete? And how on earth do I get my hands >on them ? They're among the PDF files from Al Kossow's site. TechRef_b?_???.pdf and IOPschem.pdf at least contain schematics; I don't know how complete. >I am going to have to find out a way to print PDF files..... Ghostscript appears to read the files fine and ought to be able to save the contents in Postscript or other form. If you have no better means, I'll eventually send you a printed copy. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 22:23:22 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Strange boards in Apple//e) Message-ID: <19991109042322.15318.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > THe 8530 is a complex sync/async serial chip IIRC. It's the one used in > the Macintosh, etc. And older Sun workstations. It's a great chip. We used to use it for our DEC Qbus and VAXBI bisync/SNA protocol emulator boards... very fancy stuff for classic equipment. A few gotchas like you can't access the registers in back-to-back I/O instructions... there's some internal delays especially on the 4Mhz parts when used with an 8Mhz MC68K CPU. I expect that on a 6502, there's no problems, though. Also, the ASDG Serial card for the Amiga used the Z8530 - 6Mhz and 8Mhz versions. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Nov 8 22:30:14 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Strange boards in Apple//e In-Reply-To: <1999118134123241@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991108223014.21c73ae6@earthlink.net> At 04:49 PM 11/8/99 -0500, you wrote: > >'ello > >I just picked up an Apple IIe and it has some strange boards > >Board1 > an eprom chip is covered with a label "SSB-1" there is a 10 pin ribbon cable connector >that goes to a 9 pin female connector on the back plate. the biggest chip on the board is a >SYU6551a - serial board of some kind? Possibly "Speech Synth. Board"? Is there an audio amp chip on it such as a LM386? Most likely Tony is right, it is a Serial S?? Board. -Dave From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 9 08:10:59 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Srange Boards Part II Message-ID: <19991196316341@ix.netcom.com> It does look like the DigiCards are for some sort of network and the remaining card is a serial card. I can use the serial card, but anyone want the other two cards? Send a BIG SASE with enough stamps or arrange to pick up at my address in San Francisco. ron hudson 415-550-3764 900 minnisota St. San Francisco, CA 94101 From charlesII at nwonline.net Tue Nov 9 08:25:49 1999 From: charlesII at nwonline.net (Charles Oblender) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Is this a modem? References: <3.0.5.32.19991108184113.0095f8b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38282EEB.B6847DD1@nwonline.net> Well, I did wonder what those sync in and sync out lines were for. But how would one use voice equipment on such a line? After all it still has a jack for that. Could anyone point me to software that can use such a device? Bruce Lane wrote: > At 13:02 08-11-1999 -0500, you wrote: > > >I have recently acquired what looks like a modem. It has the FCC > >certification for a modem and has a jack for voice equipment 8 conductor > >multi-line. But when connected to my VT-220 it does not act like a > >modem. No response to Hayes commands won't even give me a error > >message. It is a Line Miser DOV 640 by Gandalf Data Limited. > > Mmmmm.... if it is a modem, there's about a 99% chance that it's a > synchronous modem designed for use over analog leased lines (read: 4-wire > dedicated private line, point-to-point). > > Translation: Not Hayes-compatible, probably not even async compatible, and > most likely useless for dialup apps. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Tue Nov 9 09:12:23 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: Kevin Schoedel's message of "Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:42:51 -0500" References: Message-ID: >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Schoedel writes: Kevin> Two boxes of Lisp manuals, dated June 1997, and still shrink-wrapped. If Kevin> there is a 'collector' out there who would like to trade for 'working' Kevin> copies of the same, contact me before I open them.... Hi!!!!! Stop, please! I want those manuals. What do I have to do? Cut a leg? An arm? You name it! Cheers, PS: I also have Xerox workstation, but just the box, no monitor nor keyboard. I'm trying to hack a mono monitor to the xerox's sync frequencies, but I haven't yet suceeded. I don't have the faintest idea about what to do about the keyboard... -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 9 11:20:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? In-Reply-To: <991108202730.202001b5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991109091329.04076e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:27 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Tim wrote: >Hmm, you said XXDP in the title, then you ask about VAX in the body. >But no, I don't know of any net-bootable diagnostics for -11's or VAXen. :-) You know what I meant though. Basically a test harness that contains lots of tests for various subsystems in a VAX. You raise another interesting question which is, "Was there no way to boot an -11 over the networK?" I suspect the answer to that is no, there was no way. Too bad DEC didn't build a NMSCP that could be implemented on a network board. I suspect for -11s the easiest way to do this is to put something like a DR11-W on the bus, toggle in where you want the program to go and then send it over the parallel port. >The easiest way to do this, I think, would be to boot full-fledged VMS from >another VMScluster member. You know, VMS, that OS that has had clustering for >fifteen years or so now? :-) Perhaps you are right. It is difficult for me to embrace VMS as I don't have the experience with it that I do with other systems (UNIX in particular but I am more familiar with RSX-11M for example than VMS). I do have the full set of documentation for VMS though so it would make sense to pursue this path. And since I've got a "spare" :-) VAX with the VLC its probably a good point to start. --Chuck From awcl at awcoldstream.com Tue Nov 9 11:55:00 1999 From: awcl at awcoldstream.com (awcl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Digital PC350 Message-ID: <38285FF4.CD3EC8E2@awcoldstream.com> Hi All, Ok as Tony said this is Digital Professional workstation. The sceen lights with small square and I can see horizontal traces, I guess fly back. Sorry It is not the vertical scan. When I got it started fine with some os (I have not seen PDP before) with five or six menus on it. It was so dusty, I clean the dust and now it starts with blank dispay (with horizontal fly back lines) But if I hit keys, I could hear beeps so I guess system works fine. I just broke the display part or cable. This is what I see. Monitor - VR201 - with 15pin male connector and RJ-11 connector for the key board. Red lights on the back 1 & 2 ON. Geen light "DC" on. on the card slots right to left 1--empty 2--empty 3--000034 4--001002 5--002004-may be floppy disk controller 6--000401-cpu and hard drive controller Thank you in advance for your thoughts Anil From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 9 11:45:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991109091329.04076e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <991108202730.202001b5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >lots of tests for various subsystems in a VAX. You raise another >interesting question which is, "Was there no way to boot an -11 over the >networK?" I suspect the answer to that is no, there was no way. Too bad DEC >didn't build a NMSCP that could be implemented on a network board. I I seem to remember hardware support being there, I'm not sure if there is any software support. Don't some of the boot ROMs support network booting? I'm fairly sure they do. OTOH, while I remember seeing hardware supporting this, I don't remember seeing software supporting this. >Perhaps you are right. It is difficult for me to embrace VMS as I don't >have the experience with it that I do with other systems (UNIX in >particular but I am more familiar with RSX-11M for example than VMS). I do Sounds like you've got a better starting point than I did when I started running VMS. I'd never even run RSX-11M when I first booted VMS, so what VMS experience I had helped when I first booted RSX-11M. >have the full set of documentation for VMS though so it would make sense to >pursue this path. And since I've got a "spare" :-) VAX with the VLC its >probably a good point to start. You're set! Face it, OpenVMS is cool, and OpenVMS Clusters are even cooler (OK, it probably helps if you're a Operating Systems nut)! Besides it's a LOT easier to get a OpenVMS Hobbyist system up and running now that you can get a ton of layered products from DECUS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 9 12:04:45 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? Message-ID: <19991109180445.4507.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > At 08:27 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Tim wrote: > >Hmm, you said XXDP in the title, then you ask about VAX in the body. > >But no, I don't know of any net-bootable diagnostics for -11's or VAXen. > > :-) You know what I meant though. Basically a test harness that contains > lots of tests for various subsystems in a VAX. You raise another > interesting question which is, "Was there no way to boot an -11 over the > networK?" I suspect the answer to that is no, there was no way. Too bad DEC > didn't build a NMSCP that could be implemented on a network board. You could net-boot an 11/23+ over various flavors of sync serial boards. The problem is that most people don't have the sync modem eliminators, etc., to feed such beasts. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 9 12:19:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991109091329.04076e50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > >Hmm, you said XXDP in the title, then you ask about VAX in the body. > >But no, I don't know of any net-bootable diagnostics for -11's or VAXen. MDM was netbootable for VAXen via MOP load. MDM was built on the ELN executice and that was property it had. > :-) You know what I meant though. Basically a test harness that contains > lots of tests for various subsystems in a VAX. You raise another > interesting question which is, "Was there no way to boot an -11 over the > networK?" I suspect the answer to that is no, there was no way. Too bad DEC PDP-11s were "net bootable" via MOP protocal though the usual device was a DUV-11 or serial line. Most of the Qbus -11s had the MOP boot. > Perhaps you are right. It is difficult for me to embrace VMS as I don't > have the experience with it that I do with other systems (UNIX in > particular but I am more familiar with RSX-11M for example than VMS). I do > have the full set of documentation for VMS though so it would make sense to > pursue this path. And since I've got a "spare" :-) VAX with the VLC its > probably a good point to start. If you're familiar with RT-11, RSTS, RSX-11 then VMS is a logical trasistion to the next step without going out to something that is from the command line very different. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 9 12:27:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: MOP bootable XXDP? In-Reply-To: <19991109180445.4507.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > You could net-boot an 11/23+ over various flavors of sync serial boards. > > The problem is that most people don't have the sync modem eliminators, etc., > to feed such beasts. > > -ethan You could also use the basic serial (DL/DLV) ports for this too. MOP however only loads a single image but if you pick the right one and it's aware of it's IO it can do more than that. I used to MOPload a PDT11/130 as a hypersmart tube and also back when to do same for falcon cards (t-11 on SBC). The alternate is the host can run a TU58 emulator and then stuff like XXDP and Rt-11 can run over a serial port line as if it were a disk. I remember seeing a unix tu58 emulator out there though the task is not that complex. Allison From bryn at contactbox.co.uk Tue Nov 9 13:04:49 1999 From: bryn at contactbox.co.uk (bryn firkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: B12YN F Message-ID: <00d101bf2ae6$4b0a63c0$ed9901d4@home> Hi, Thought you may be interested in a car number plate I have to sell.. It spells BRYN F using B 12 YN F. Unfortunately I am having to sell due to illness. If you are at all interested please email back. If not, I am sorry for the email it will never happen again. Regards Bryn F -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/098825ec/attachment.html From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Nov 9 14:29:17 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram Message-ID: <01bf2af1$18218c80$9101eac5@tiger> Hi, I need a RS232 transputer tram for a project I am planning on doing. I really dont want to access the PCs serial port due to speed considerations, etc. So does anyone have such a beast for sale?? I dont know what inmos part number it is, but transtech had one called TTM21 and Sundance had one called STM220. Thanks Ram From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Nov 9 14:44:48 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Needed, Memory chip info for a Compaq References: Message-ID: <382887C0.B610A5B4@wxs.nl> B'ichela wrote: > > I am aware that this list covers Older systems than Compaq. From > that appear to be 72 pin. There is memory chips on both sides of these. > Does standard Simms of the 72pin variety have memory chips on both sides > of the simm? > If these ARE standard, does anyone have two 8mb ones? I want to > put 16mb of ram on the Deskpro as 4mb stinks! The Compaq only can hold > two Givin' the relative dated type of a PC with 72pin Simm you'll propably need 8 or 16Mb FastPage type simms. Chances are you will run into EDO-simms but these may not work. Also a lot of PC's need Parity Ram type simms. Some have true parity (an extra 9th bit) some emulate the parity ram by means of a few gates and a parity encoder/decoder. These may not work on your Compaq. So look for "true parity FastPage 72pin simms" Sipke de Wal From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Nov 9 14:54:01 1999 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low Message-ID: <00d901bf2af4$8d9fa520$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> I thought the "*RARE* 128K Mac with original signatures" was bad, but this is worse: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=197183379 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 13:18:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 8, 99 10:34:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/05d89955/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 13:33:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Strange boards in Apple//e) In-Reply-To: <19991109042322.15318.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 8, 99 08:23:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 958 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/6b3c7b5b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 15:45:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Digital PC350 In-Reply-To: <38285FF4.CD3EC8E2@awcoldstream.com> from "awcl" at Nov 9, 99 11:55:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/5b16d440/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 16:34:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <01bf2af1$18218c80$9101eac5@tiger> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 9, 99 03:29:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 553 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/143aa4b5/attachment.ksh From beattidp at whidbey.net Tue Nov 9 19:01:04 1999 From: beattidp at whidbey.net (Douglas Beattie Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: suscribe Message-ID: <3828C3D0.6A8B@whidbey.net> How do I participate in these discussions? -- Douglas Beattie Jr. http://www2.whidbey.net/~beattidp/ From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 9 16:59:01 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <00d901bf2af4$8d9fa520$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> References: <00d901bf2af4$8d9fa520$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Message-ID: <19991109165901.E5421@mrbill.net> On Tue, Nov 09, 1999 at 01:54:01PM -0700, Mark Gregory wrote: > I thought the "*RARE* 128K Mac with original signatures" was bad, but this > is worse: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=197183379 > >From the pictures, it looks like he's selling 6" x 10 " pieces of a > featureless flat panel that he claims comes from a Univac; nothing > interesting about them, no logos or switches, just an alleged association > with the Univac name. Must be aiming at suckers who confuse ENIAC with > UNIVAC and don't realize that Univacs were commercially available in > substantial numbers. > And he admits to scrapping the Univac years ago, proving he's a heretic. He's been doing this with various pieces of equipment (and I do mean "pieces") for a while now. I'm not sure, but I think he may be the same guy who was selling stuff like System/360 control panels, etc, saying "man, you should have seen the rest of the machine before I scrapped it..". Pathetic. Just pathetic. Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 9 17:01:25 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? Message-ID: <13498308183.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Can RT-11 deal in any way with an RA92? I'm going to find out later tonight or tomorrow, but if anyone knows ahead of time that it works/doesn't work that would be better. ^_^ ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 9 17:07:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? Message-ID: <991109180758.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> >Can RT-11 deal in any way with an RA92? Yep, it sure does. RT-11 will deal with drives up to 8 Gbytes by use of the SET DUn:PART=nnn partitioning method. How you keep track of what's in all 256 partitions is your business :-). Even larger drives can be used with RT-11, but you only get to use the first 8 Gbytes. I've got a RT-11 5.7 system here with a 9.1 Gig Micropolis drive attached. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 9 17:14:30 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low Message-ID: <991109181430.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> >He's been doing this with various pieces of equipment (and I do mean "pieces") >for a while now. I'm not sure, but I think he may be the same guy who was >selling stuff like System/360 control panels, etc, saying "man, you should have >seen the rest of the machine before I scrapped it..". How is this any worse than many institutional and club computer museums, as well as individual collector's collections, which have a CPU but not the disk/tape drives and operating system? I agree, it's a shame, and in the perfect world there'd be a way to run old systems forever, but evidently folks' priorities aren't geared to keeping complete systems. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 9 17:17:06 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? In-Reply-To: <991109180758.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <13498311037.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Drives up to 8 GB...] Geez, did DEC ever even make PDP disks that big? In my case, all I'm doing is using RT-11 to make a set of 2.11BSD tapes, and then installing that. Anyway, thanks for the notice. ^_^ ------- From emu at ecubics.com Tue Nov 9 17:22:14 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? References: <991109180758.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <01de01bf2b09$43dc6300$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 4:07 PM Subject: RE: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? > Yep, it sure does. RT-11 will deal with drives up to 8 Gbytes by use of the > SET DUn:PART=nnn partitioning method. How you keep track of what's > in all 256 partitions is your business :-). > > Even larger drives can be used with RT-11, but you only get to use the > first 8 Gbytes. I've got a RT-11 5.7 system here with a 9.1 Gig > Micropolis drive attached. And How you keep track of what's in all 256 partitions ? ;-) cheers, emanuel From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 9 17:32:36 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <991109181430.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991109183236.00a17690@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com may have mentioned these words: >>He's been doing this with various pieces of equipment (and I do mean "pieces") >>for a while now. I'm not sure, but I think he may be the same guy who was >>selling stuff like System/360 control panels, etc, saying "man, you should have >>seen the rest of the machine before I scrapped it..". > >How is this any worse than many institutional and club computer museums, >as well as individual collector's collections, which have a >CPU but not the disk/tape drives and operating system? I agree, it's a >shame, and in the perfect world there'd be a way to run old systems >forever, but evidently folks' priorities aren't geared to keeping complete >systems. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 9 17:34:32 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? Message-ID: <991109183432.20200245@trailing-edge.com> >> Yep, it sure does. RT-11 will deal with drives up to 8 Gbytes by use of the >> SET DUn:PART=nnn partitioning method. How you keep track of what's >> in all 256 partitions is your business :-). >And How you keep track of what's in all 256 partitions ? Admittedly, keeping track of all those partitions can be dizzying sometimes. There are some handy "tricks" (I put that in quotes since many of us RT-11 oldtimers have been doing these for years, and these are all documented tools, but sometimes used for other purposes than to aid my failing memory) for keeping volumes straight: 1. Use the /VOL qualifier when INITting the volume to put something descriptive there. For example: RT-11FB V05.07 .create junk.dsk[100] .mou ld4 junk.dsk .init ld4:/vol LD4:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y Volume ID? Descriptive Owner? Information 2. If you've done (1) above, then you can use the /VOL qualifier on DIR to remind yourself what's on that partition: .dir/vol ld4: 09-Nov-1999 Volume ID: Descriptive Owner : Information 0 Files, 0 Blocks 92 Free blocks 3. Use logical names to identify the volumes, and a command procedure to define them all. (There is no real equivalent to a logical name in many modern OS's, including Unix, unfortunately. A logical is kinda/sorta like a Unix mount point, but a logical is far better because you can redefine as you find handy.) With RT-11 you only get 3-character logical names, but that's a start: .ASS INF LD4 .ASS SRC DU3 .ASS BIN DU1 etc. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Nov 9 17:51:27 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Boards from a heath (zenith?) computer Message-ID: <199911092351.XAA01179@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Ok, I have a pair of circuit boards, i'm not sure what these belong to: floppy disk controller 85-2807-2 HEATH COPR 120882 1982 -------------------------- HUDSON AND ASSOC. Z SUPPORT CARD COPYRIGHT 1984 Any ideas? The edge connector is 50 conectors per side. roughly 10 inches wide by 5.5 inches high. -Lawrence LeMay PS: i picked up a DigiLog Telecomputer. appears to be some sort of portable terminal without monitor (1 BNC video conector). University date code is from 1973. I'll put some pictures of this up later. From jperry at eg3.com Tue Nov 9 16:40:33 1999 From: jperry at eg3.com (Judith Perry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Links Message-ID: <199911100025.QAA01947@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Greetings! I just completed a "browse" project on the Web for electronics-type sites, and yours made my list. Do you exchange links? eg3.com is the oldest and largest web resource for embedded, dsp, and realtime at http://www.eg3.com/. If you provide a link to us, we will also provide one to you - please contact me for details. Thanks, Judy Perry Webmaster, Director of MIS jperry@eeglossary.com ------------------------------ http://www.eg3.com eg3.com: window on the electronic design world 2.1 million hits per month - 150,000+ users: tel: 408-938-9150 fax: 408-938-9155 email: inquiry@eg3.com audience: * software and hardware design engineers * programmers * oem decision-makers * management and chief executive officers categories: * applied computing * dsp * embedded chips * embedded software * embedded systems * industrial computing * internet * mcu/mpu * realtime * news * hi-tech marketing From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 9 18:27:10 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Coco FDC hacks (was: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991109183236.00a17690@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > P.S. To keep this on-topic, does anyone have instructions on the hack to > convert the above-mentioned floppy controller to be able to handle 3.5" HD > floppy drives? I'd *love* to have a 1.44Meg floppy formatted under OS/9... > :-) Also, is there any way (without reconstructing the 6 million dollar > man...) to get two floppy controllers online using the MultiPak? My recollection was that there were several different vartieties. Each one will have slightly different issues. To add 3.5" HD floppies, you will need to provide a different clock, way to change it back and forth, and support for one more signal to the drive. Why do you want to run more than one FDC? If it is to run 4 instead of 2 drives, you can do that with minor hardware and software hacks to a controller. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Nov 9 18:40:45 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Digi-Log TeleComputer Message-ID: <199911100040.AAA01252@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I have a couple images of a DigiLog TeleComputer at: www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/digilog It doesnt have a manufacture date, but it was purchased by the university on or before 1973. I have the three missing keycaps, but i suppose I should see if i can find some replacement keys, since the posts are broken off on 3 keys. They have a post vaguely like a phillips head screwdriver. -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 18:40:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <991109181430.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Nov 9, 99 06:14:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/ab4e242f/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 9 18:43:34 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Coco FDC hacks (was: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19991109183236.00a17690@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991109194334.009abcc0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> P.S. To keep this on-topic, does anyone have instructions on the hack to >> convert the above-mentioned floppy controller to be able to handle 3.5" HD >> floppy drives? I'd *love* to have a 1.44Meg floppy formatted under OS/9... >> :-) Also, is there any way (without reconstructing the 6 million dollar >> man...) to get two floppy controllers online using the MultiPak? > >My recollection was that there were several different vartieties. Each >one will have slightly different issues. Hmmmm... Looks like I need to grab the controller catalog # (and other specifics) and keep it in my Palm... >To add 3.5" HD floppies, you will need to provide a different clock, way >to change it back and forth, and support for one more signal to the drive. I know you need a different clock (500Khz signaling rate vs. 250Khz for double-density) but I'd like to know if it's as simple as a DPDT switch & another crystal, or are there more things to keep a lookout on (like different buffers, software changes WRT timing issues, stuff like that...). >Why do you want to run more than one FDC? If it is to run 4 instead of 2 >drives, you can do that with minor hardware and software hacks to a >controller. Well, IIRC the most drives you can hang off of one controller is 4 SSDD drives, or 3 DSDD drives because the Side Select signal was used for one of the drive select pins. (Again, I think... If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.) I was looking to hang 3 DSDD & 3 DSHD drives off my CoCo... purely for shits & giggles. If it's a ton of hardware work, "nevermind" comes to mind. However, if it's some hardware & hacking some device drivers, then... I've always wanted to hack around with the device drivers of OS-9... :-) Just musings of random tinkering... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Nov 9 18:44:14 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? References: <991109180758.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3828BFDD.17B144F@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Can RT-11 deal in any way with an RA92? > Yep, it sure does. RT-11 will deal with drives up to 8 Gbytes by use of the > SET DUn:PART=nnn partitioning method. How you keep track of what's > in all 256 partitions is your business :-). Jerome Fine replies: One additional bit of information that is useful is that starting with V5.5 of RT-11, up to 64 partitions could be used at the same time as opposed to only 8 partitions from V5.3 to V5.4G of RT-11. Starting with version V5.5, the MSCP device driver (the LD: as well) allowed extended device drivers and the names D00: => D77: with the two digits being regarded as Octal Characters for a total of 64 (decimal) partitions. You need to either re-boot or UNLOAD and LOAD an MSCP device driver to activate the other partitions if you also have a 9.1 GByte drive like Tim has (slurp slurp slurp). > Even larger drives can be used with RT-11, but you only get to use the > first 8 Gbytes. I've got a RT-11 5.7 system here with a 9.1 Gig > Micropolis drive attached. In regard the the maximum size of the drive, the DEC implementation allowed a partition number of 377 Octal (255 decimal) as the maximum since the two word table uses the UNIT for the first word and the second word split (one byte each) between the partition and the port (controller) which is almost a complete waste since the DEC implementation allows only a maximum of four ports in any case (only 2 bits required). Since all 16 high order bits of the 32 bit block number are available, it would be possible (but not trivial) to allow a much larger partition number and make better use of the map table. Since I don't have a 9.1 GByte Micropolis (slurp slurp slurp) for a system with RT-11, I have not bothered to determine how much effort it would be. Tim, maybe you could figure out what code references the PART and PORT values and see if the 2 bits in use for the PORT could be placed at the top of the word and 6 extra bits made available to the PART for a maximum number of 16384 partitions and a 512 GByte drive. While a 512 GByte drive is not yet available, that should be enough for RT-11. I don't know how I would keep track of 16384 partitions?????? If you really wanted to go for broke, why not switch the UNIT and PART values (word for a byte) and allow up to 65536 partitions and a 2 TByte drive. ALSO, be aware that ONLY for first EIGHT map entries in the table can be booted with DEC distributed software and presumably V5.7 from Mentec as well. Changing the map table in the boot portion of the device driver is not only possible, but has been done to allow all 64 partitions on a single controller to be bootable from a software point of view. It is not currently possible with DEC boot ROMs to boot an MSCP device where the physical UNIT number is not the same as the logical unit number in the mapping table. So if the physical drive UNIT number is 3, DU3: MUST be booted if you are using a standard DEC distribution of MSCP or DU(X).SYS device driver. It is also possible to use a different set of letters for the MSCP device driver (but start each different one with a letter different from D and L and from each other if you want more than 8 partitions). In that case, the same restrictions apply. The standard DEC boot ROMs will automatically search for alternate MSCP CSR addresses and boot MI0: (if Tim had called his driver MI for Micropolis) and had used ONLY one controller and the drive on the controller or host adapter was UNIT=0 for the hardware. NOTE THAT DEC BOOT ROMs FOR A HARDWARE BOOT CAN NOT BOOT NON-ZERO PARTITIONS. Note that the above is not quite true if 2 active partitions (the first must be PART=0) are available. The secondary boot block can be read from the first drive with UNIT=n for DUn: and the mapping tables used for the actual partition which is to be booted. I don't really consider that a proper procedure, but it could be used in an emergency or even all the time if someone wanted to do things in a non-standard fashion. I just do not feel comfortable with that kind of thing since I want to be able to know exactly what will happen. It is difficult enough to keep track of what is normal. I recommend that dual partition booting not be done. Tim, do you have the search algorithm for alternate CSR addresses when the standard CSR DU MSCP address of 172150 is either not available at all or is a removable floppy with no media present? One of these millennia I want to write an MSCP boot interface that will allow any controller CSR, any UNIT and any PART, but I can get by with what is available right now - I just boot MI0: and then re-boot M45: Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 9 19:01:24 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:26 2005 Subject: Coco FDC hacks (was: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991109194334.009abcc0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >My recollection was that there were several different vartieties. Each > >one will have slightly different issues. > Hmmmm... Looks like I need to grab the controller catalog # (and other > specifics) and keep it in my Palm... They almost certainly all had the same RS catalog # :-(. I'm not the right person to ask. Better to check with somebody familiar with the various RS variants, such as Dr. Marty . > >To add 3.5" HD floppies, you will need to provide a different clock, way > >to change it back and forth, and support for one more signal to the drive. > I know you need a different clock (500Khz signaling rate vs. 250Khz for > double-density) but I'd like to know if it's as simple as a DPDT switch & > another crystal, or are there more things to keep a lookout on (like > different buffers, software changes WRT timing issues, stuff like that...). Rather than a switch, you'd probably want to control it in software, so as to retain full low density DD capability. First step would be to find out if others have been there before. If not, check with Allison about whether the rest of the RS Coco FDC cartridge circuitry can properly handle the higher speed. > >Why do you want to run more than one FDC? If it is to run 4 instead of 2 > >drives, you can do that with minor hardware and software hacks to a > >controller. > > Well, IIRC the most drives you can hang off of one controller is 4 SSDD > drives, or 3 DSDD drives because the Side Select signal was used for one of > the drive select pins. (Again, I think... If I'm wrong, please enlighten > me.) That sounds about right to me. > I was looking to hang 3 DSDD & 3 DSHD drives off my CoCo... purely for > shits & giggles. If it's a ton of hardware work, "nevermind" comes to mind. > However, if it's some hardware & hacking some device drivers, then... I've > always wanted to hack around with the device drivers of OS-9... :-) Easiest way would probably be to use one controller, and rig up a software controlled switch to go between two cables. Otherwise, you run into issues of whether the Coco used memory mapped IO, modifying second controller to function at a different address, and writing new drivers. Once you add the other clock circuitry, be sure to write a driver to do 8" disks! Somebody ELSE will probably know whether it has been done before. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 9 19:01:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? Message-ID: <991109200155.20200252@trailing-edge.com> >In regard the the maximum size of the drive, the DEC implementation >allowed a partition number of 377 Octal (255 decimal) as the maximum >since the two word table uses the UNIT for the first word and the >second word split (one byte each) between the partition and the port >(controller) which is almost a complete waste since the DEC >implementation allows only a maximum of four ports in any case >(only 2 bits required). Since all 16 high order bits of the 32 bit block >number are available, it would be possible (but not trivial) to allow >a much larger partition number and make better use of the map table. >Since I don't have a 9.1 GByte Micropolis (slurp slurp slurp) for a >system with RT-11, I have not bothered to determine how much >effort it would be. Tim, maybe you could figure out what code >references the PART and PORT values and see if the 2 bits in >use for the PORT could be placed at the top of the word and >6 extra bits made available to the PART for a maximum number >of 16384 partitions and a 512 GByte drive. Sure, this is done fairly easily. You have to modify not only the SET overlay usage inside the DU handler, but also the parts of RESORC.SAV responsible for SHOW DEV:DU. (Working from memory, the relevant parts are in RESDEV.MAC on the source kit - I was fooling around with this earlier this year to add multi-CSR display capability.) The real question is, will I ever have so much RT-11 software/data that I need access to more than 8 Gbytes? I've got a wall of 8" floppies here, over 7000 floppies in total, but all 7000 floppies together (even assuming double density) are only 3.5 Gbytes! (And less than half of those 8" floppies are RT-11 stuff in the first place - the rest being WPS/8 and CP/M stuff.) >Tim, do you have the search algorithm for alternate CSR addresses >when the standard CSR DU MSCP address of 172150 is either >not available at all or is a removable floppy with no media present? The "DEC standard" way of determining alternate CSR's is to follow the autoconfigure rules (see http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/alans.csr.paper for a nice writeup of how the rules work). Unfortunately the RT-11 developers chose to ignore these rules in picking their "default" second CSR for RT-11, but of course you could choose to follow these rules by ignoring the SYSGEN-suggested secondary (and tertiary and whatever comes after) DU CSR's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 9 19:02:25 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: subscribe In-Reply-To: <3828C3D0.6A8B@whidbey.net> Message-ID: Hi, Doug - Apparently you are participating! Just jump right in and reply to a thread or start your own (something non-controversial perhaps - like "why the xxxx computer is best and all the others stink" or "why I like eBay" or "why I hate eBay" should generate some responses). Nice to see you in the group. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Douglas Beattie Jr. Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 8:01 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: suscribe How do I participate in these discussions? -- Douglas Beattie Jr. http://www2.whidbey.net/~beattidp/ From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 9 19:05:59 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Coco FDC hacks (was: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991109183236.00a17690@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <199911100106.RAA19707@civic.hal.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > However, my main problem is this: We mostly all agree that this guy's a > wanker... how is it that *ebay* has reached the new low??? It's not they're > fault, any more than it's their fault that I purchased an original > WD-1793-based RS Color Computer floppy controller for a decent price thru > them... (which had a different ROM hacked into it... I'd like to see what's > on it. ;-) > > Ebay doesn't control what it's customers auction at their site... We may at > times disagree with Ebay's policies & politics, but let's try to lay blame > where blame is due, eh? > > P.S. To keep this on-topic, does anyone have instructions on the hack to > convert the above-mentioned floppy controller to be able to handle 3.5" HD > floppy drives? I'd *love* to have a 1.44Meg floppy formatted under OS/9... > :-) Also, is there any way (without reconstructing the 6 million dollar > man...) to get two floppy controllers online using the MultiPak? Hi Roger Although, not a 1793 and not a 6809, I have been making code on a 80C186 for the 2793 chip, which is vary similar to a 1793. I've been reading and writing, preformatted, 1.44MB disk. I don't know what the hardware difference is between the QD and DD disk ( I should but don't remember ). I think it is just the frequency of the circuit. Some is in assembly and some is in Forth, if you are interested. Dwight From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Nov 9 19:12:08 1999 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? References: <991109180758.2020023e@trailing-edge.com> <3828BFDD.17B144F@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3828C668.293EB1C2@arrl.net> Jerome Fine wrote: > to only 8 partitions from V5.3 to V5.4G of RT-11. Starting with version Was that a typo? I'm running Rt11v5.4f and only get 6 partitions. If there is a way to get more, let me know. Nick Oliviero From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 9 19:21:50 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: subscribe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911100121.RAA19720@civic.hal.com> "Bob Stek" wrote: > Hi, Doug - > > Apparently you are participating! Just jump right in and reply to a thread > or start your own (something non-controversial perhaps - like "why the xxxx > computer is best and all the others stink" or "why I like eBay" or "why I > hate eBay" should generate some responses). > > Nice to see you in the group. Hi Not necessarily. Anyone can send to the list ( example Judith Perry ) and not recieve list mail. You need to subscribe. If you look at your full header, you'll notice a line: List-Subscribe: This is how you did it way back when. Also, a good thing to remember for others that don't recall how to unsubscribe, search or what ever. There are some helpful bits in the mail header, take a look. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 9 19:24:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991109183236.00a17690@127.0.0.1> (message from Roger Merchberger on Tue, 09 Nov 1999 18:32:36 -0500) References: <3.0.1.32.19991109183236.00a17690@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <19991110012454.6262.qmail@brouhaha.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > P.S. To keep this on-topic, does anyone have instructions on the hack to > convert the above-mentioned floppy controller to be able to handle 3.5" HD > floppy drives? I'd *love* to have a 1.44Meg floppy formatted under OS/9... > :-) Also, is there any way (without reconstructing the 6 million dollar > man...) to get two floppy controllers online using the MultiPak? Even if you hack the FD controller's clock and data separator, it's possible that the OS/9 floppy driver may not be able to handle the data rate of a 1440K floppy, which is 500 Kbps vs. the 250 Kbps of the drives it was intended for. That's a byte every 16 microseconds, which is tricky with no DMA or FIFO, since you have to poll for the FDC to be ready for each byte. I was disappointed to find that the optional floppy controller board for the AIM-65 can support 8 inch double density operation (which has the same data rate as the 1440K floppy) only with the addition of another board with a DMA controller. Which, of course, I don't have. I'm not sure that Rockwell even made it. From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 9 19:58:19 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <19991110012454.6262.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199911100158.RAA19744@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > P.S. To keep this on-topic, does anyone have instructions on the hack to > > convert the above-mentioned floppy controller to be able to handle 3.5" HD > > floppy drives? I'd *love* to have a 1.44Meg floppy formatted under OS/9... > > :-) Also, is there any way (without reconstructing the 6 million dollar > > man...) to get two floppy controllers online using the MultiPak? > > Even if you hack the FD controller's clock and data separator, it's possible > that the OS/9 floppy driver may not be able to handle the data rate of a > 1440K floppy, which is 500 Kbps vs. the 250 Kbps of the drives it was > intended for. That's a byte every 16 microseconds, which is tricky > with no DMA or FIFO, since you have to poll for the FDC to be ready for > each byte. > > I was disappointed to find that the optional floppy controller board > for the AIM-65 can support 8 inch double density operation (which has > the same data rate as the 1440K floppy) only with the addition of another > board with a DMA controller. Which, of course, I don't have. I'm not > sure that Rockwell even made it. Hi If you ignore errors and just deal with the data transfer, I'm almost sure a 6809 can keep up. It is just a matter of counting the cycles carefully and not having any extra operations. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 19:50:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Coco FDC hacks (was: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 9, 99 05:01:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/9f582394/attachment.ksh From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Tue Nov 9 20:12:28 1999 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Exormacs and Versados Message-ID: I am trying to find a system that will run the Motorola M68000 Family Structured Assembler. Any hints? Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA paul@wccnet.org From ndiablo at diablonet.net Tue Nov 9 21:15:50 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! Message-ID: <19991110031550.1608.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Hi! I've been collecting older equipment for a few years now, but i've only recently found out about this list. It looks like a great resource, and I was thinking it'd probably be a good place to ask the question: "Does anybody know of anywhere in southwest Michigan where one can find older surplus minicomputer and workstation equipment?" I've been able to aquire a fair amount of interesting stuff from the local university, but it's been slow going and parts are hard to get. I've seen postings to lists numerous times about people giving machines away in places like Texas and the East Coast, but never anything in this general area.. i'm guessing there isnt quite as much of a glut of equipment in the area, but maybe i'm just not looking in the right places! I'd really appreciate any bones anybody could throw me :) Thanks, -Netdiablo (root@diablonet.net) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 9 19:56:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911100158.RAA19744@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey on Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:58:19 -0800 (PST)) References: <199911100158.RAA19744@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <19991110015651.6476.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dwight Elvey wrote: > If you ignore errors and just deal with the data transfer, > I'm almost sure a 6809 can keep up. Ignoring errors gets you into trouble really quickly. I've been down that path. I designed an 1793-based FDC card for a 1 MHz 6502-based system. To get 8-inch double density working, I had to have the hardware provide a second decode for the FDC data register that when accessed would halt the processor until the FDC asserted either DRQ or IRQ, and write an interrupt handler that would recognize that the return address was in the transfer loop and replace it with the address of the error handler. The 6809 tends to take at least as many cycles for simple instructions as the 6502, and sometimes more. In an inner transfer loop of a device driver, the 6809 will win if you need to do unalinged transfers because it can do a 16-bit increment. But I'm not convinced that it's good enough. IIRC, on the Color Computer you can turn off the video and run the processor at double speed. That should probably be sufficient, but somewhat ugly unless you didn't want to use the console. > It is just a matter > of counting the cycles carefully and not having any > extra operations. Don't imagine that you can just write a loop (or inline code) to transfer a byte every 16 us. You *must* poll the DRQ bit, because the motor speed control is nowhere near good enough to maintain a constant transfer rate. And even if it did, there's no guarantee that the machine that wrote the disk wasn't a little fast or a little slow. Cheers, Eric From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 9 20:21:37 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: mac IIx drive bracket needed Message-ID: <0.83f67ca5.255a30b1@aol.com> I'm fitting my mac IIx with a second floppy drive and I need the bracket the drive sits in/on. LMK if you have one. D~ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 9 20:27:48 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions Message-ID: <0.d6348c2c.255a3224@aol.com> After a dry spell, I picked up some items: From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 9 20:32:24 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Coco FDC hacks (was: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991109213224.00954b70@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >[2 FDCs] >Now this is where it gets interesting... > >All I/O on the CoCo is memory mapped. It has to be -- the CoCo uses a >6809 CPU which doesn't have special I/O instructions. Right. That confused me for a while when I started learning (unforch, I only got as far as starting... :-( ) 80C85 code for my Tandy 200, with the non-memory-mapped I/O capabilities... >Now, there are 2 chip select signals decoded on the coco mainboard that >are brought out to the expansion connector. One enables the expansion >ROM (in a plug-in cartridge). The other is used to enable I/O devices in >the cartridge (IIRC, it's active from FF40-FF5F (or is it FF4F?)). > >AFAIK, _all_ ROMs in cartridges are enabled by the first signal. Some >cartridges use the I/O select signal, others decode the address lines and >map their I/O devices elsewhere in the memory map. IIRC, the disk >controller is one of the few devices that uses this I/O select signal. > >The multipak interface switches both the above select signals so that >they're only active on one slot at a time. It doesn't fiddle with any of >the address lines, though. > >What this means is that many I/O devices (but not the disk controller) >are always accessible if plugged into a multipak, no matter which slot is >'selected'. But the disk controller is only accessible if the slot it's >plugged into is the active one. So in theory you can just plug in 2 disk >controllers and switch between then using the slot select register in the >multipack (I forget where this is -- FF7F????). Just don't ask me to >write the software. I had forgotten about that tidbit... time to get out my spec's on the Multipak and disk drivers again. Don't worry - I'm better with software than hardware as that's where I started, so I can prolly write/modify device drivers to handle that stuff... it's the hardware where I'm rusty. Thanks... this weekend I might have to rustle up some books again, and start plinking again... (or, get the Commie 128 I rescued up and running; I have a Zork trilogy I want to play. ;-) Glad to help improve the S/N ratio... ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 9 20:41:32 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <19991110015651.6476.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199911100241.SAA19770@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Don't imagine that you can just write a loop (or inline code) > to transfer a byte every 16 us. You *must* poll the DRQ bit, > because the motor speed control is nowhere near good enough to > maintain a constant transfer rate. And even if it did, there's > no guarantee that the machine that wrote the disk wasn't a > little fast or a little slow. Hi Eric Yes, you have to watch the DRQ bit. I'm doing it with a 16 MHz C186 with time to do error checking as well. I'm not sure how fast the true cycles are on this machine because of things like caching. I was able to read using Forth code for about 60H bytes before I'd loose it and this is noticeably slower than machine code. I think the 60H boundary was related to addressing because several variations of my code all hit the same limit. I think one needs to write a nice tight loop, possibly doing two bytes at a time, and see how many clocks it really takes. We shouldn't be too skeptical until we really look at what the processor can really do. I don't have any info on 6809's so I am really just spitting into the wind. Dwight From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Nov 9 20:42:37 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: <0.d6348c2c.255a3224@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > After a dry spell, I picked up some items: > > >From an old IBMer, i got two PS/1s; a 2011C34 and 2121A82 in perfect shape [snippage] > > keep collecting, everyone! > > But... but.. where would I put everyone? What about when they got hungry? It's bad enough with all these DEC racks all over the house, and now you want me to invite company?? And then there's the parking...... Chs Jn ObClassiccmp: I just was given an *immaculate* Mac 512 with over a hundred disks, a printer, and an original Thunderscan.. all in soft nylon carry-cases. It was owned by one of those folks who have their equipment autoclaved every six months, just for good measure. It is all literally in show-room condition. Also, three unopened toner carts for the Laserwriter... and the person delivered them to me. Must be Kharma! From schoedel at kw.igs.net Tue Nov 9 20:53:04 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1999/11/09 at 7:18pm +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >And I've over-simplified the PERQ. Believe me, it's _not_ that simple >when you really start looking at it. That's OK; I over-simplified the Daybreak :-) Some of the operations are weird, and only a fraction of encodable operations actually work, due to timing constraints. I don't fully understand it yet; I'll have to print the documents first. >[....] >The worst mistake they ever made was to use the 2910. Oh, it's a fine >chip _but_ you can't extend the address width easily. So on the 16K >board, where they needed a 14 bit control store address, they had a '2 >bit kludge'. Hmm. The Daybreak has 8K control store, but only 12 address bits; everything I've read so far only mentions 12 bit addresses. >Then there's the problem of loading the control store. The _only_ device >that can address the control store is the 2910. So there's a problem in >actually loading it -- how on earth do you specify the address. This reminds of a device I once worked on, made by a company whose name you'd recognize. The part was *almost* a complete processor; it had a sequencer, ALU, registers, etc. but didn't quite nail down the instruction set. The manufacturer had designed an evaluation board; I was evidently the first person to try to program it. They had taken an extreme RISC approach, providing only one addressing mode: indirect through a register. The only way to get an arbitrary address into a register was, of course, to load it from an address in a register.... They changed the design. >BTW, does the Daybreak have any kind of grpahics processor? I'd wondered >if it was one of the gate arrays on the memory board. I haven't really looked at it yet. I think two of the gate arrays are involved, but I think it's just a dumb frame buffer. >Looking again, my machine seems to have mostly standard TTL number chips >on the CPU and memory boards and mostly 733W numbers on the IOP board. >Very few chips have both numbers :-( OK. Mine have about 10% 733 only, 60% standard numbers only, and 30% both, but naturally the same parts appear repeatedly. It seems that "leading" zeroes (after the W) don't matter. Here are the matching numbers from the Daybreak boards: 733W 0098 75189 733W 0318 74S00 733W 0319 74S04 733W 0321 74S260 733W 0339 7414 733W 0341 74279 733W 0351 74S257 733W 1523 74S189 733W 1550 AM27S07DC 733W 1606 74S10 733W 1611 74S08 733W 1616 74S138 733W 1619 74S20 733W 1620 74S64 733W 1621 74S51 733W 1624 74S138 733W 1625 74LS240 733W 1626 74LS244 733W 1630 74S175 733W 1633 74S240 733W 1634 74S241 733W 1638 74S280 733W 1640 74S374 733W 1643 74S02 733W 1644 74S11 733W 1646 74S32 733W 1647 74S38 733W 1648 74S86 733W 1652 74S157 733W 1663 74LS393 733W 1675 74LS74 733W 1676 74LS191 733W 1682 10124 733W 1698 74LS374 733W 1699 74S373 733W 1747 74LS259B 733W 1770 74LS163 733W 1771 74S74 733W 2136 74S37 733W 2137 74S151 733W 2369 MCA1300PKG/E5 733W 2380 MCA1300PLM/E4 733W 2538 CY7C122-25PC 733W 2550 C67402J 733W 2552 MK4501N-12 733W 3042 AM2901CPC I might have missed some, there might be errors here, and I haven't looked at the Dandelion boards. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 9 20:33:14 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911100241.SAA19770@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey on Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:41:32 -0800 (PST)) References: <199911100241.SAA19770@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <19991110023314.6861.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dwight Elvey wrote: > We shouldn't be too skeptical until we really look at what > the processor can really do. I don't have any info > on 6809's I'm familiar with them, and at 1 MHz the fastest instructions take 2 us. That doesn't let you do very much when you need to transfer a byte every 16 us. IIRC just an iteration of the loop to poll DRQ takes 7 or 8 us if you don't use some fancy tricks. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 9 21:08:45 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <19991110015651.6476.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199911100158.RAA19744@civic.hal.com> <199911100158.RAA19744@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991109220845.00a19de0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Eric Smith may have mentioned these words: >The 6809 tends to take at least as many cycles for simple instructions >as the 6502, and sometimes more. In an inner transfer loop of a >device driver, the 6809 will win if you need to do unalinged transfers >because it can do a 16-bit increment. But I'm not convinced that >it's good enough. Erm... I looked up the 6502 instruction set, and while I don't think it's much slower, I don't think (overall) it's much quicker, either. I'll have to double-check my 6809 references, tho. Cycle times seem to be a bit rusty in the noggin... I've not coded in 6502 so I don't know how efficient it is, but with the auto-increment index/stack pointers in the 6809 (and having 4 of them), it makes for some very tight, fast loops. >IIRC, on the Color Computer you can turn off the video and run >the processor at double speed. That should probably be sufficient, >but somewhat ugly unless you didn't want to use the console. I've never turned off the video on a CoCo, and I'm not really sure you can. The main (read: only) crystal that controls all the timing in a CoCo is a stock colorburst crystal fed straight to the video & into a divider for the rest of the system timing. When you use the double-speed poke, you're changing the divider, so you're not touching the video. However, anything else off the main CoCo bus (including anything plugged into the cartridge port, the serial ports (big-banged :-( ), the cassette port, will get a serious case of heartburn unless you know how to account for it. (and yes, it was *sweet* to save/load proggies from tape at ~3000 baud... I could load a 32K datafile from tape faster than my buddy could with his Commie 64 from *disk*. ;-) One good side effect of this is enough hackers tinkered with the double-speed poke timings to fix or patch most any problem you could think of... When the CoCo3 came along which could run at double-speed naturally, when Tandy was so thoughtful to not give any RS-DOS control to the speed, everything was already figured out to get around Tandy's shortcomings. >> It is just a matter >> of counting the cycles carefully and not having any >> extra operations. > >Don't imagine that you can just write a loop (or inline code) >to transfer a byte every 16 us. You *must* poll the DRQ bit, >because the motor speed control is nowhere near good enough to >maintain a constant transfer rate. And even if it did, there's >no guarantee that the machine that wrote the disk wasn't a >little fast or a little slow. Right... I'm not sure if the disk hardware can even handle the datarate very well (or at all) so all the programming in the world may not be enough to do the task if the hardware falls on it's face. Just didn't know if it'd been done before, and if so, how? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 21:15:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Nov 9, 99 09:53:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2969 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/1b9a743f/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 9 21:23:34 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions Message-ID: <0.2b9cae2c.255a3f36@aol.com> In a message dated 11/9/99 9:43:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, jpl15@netcom.com writes: > ObClassiccmp: I just was given an *immaculate* Mac 512 with over a > hundred disks, a printer, and an original Thunderscan.. all in soft > nylon carry-cases. It was owned by one of those folks who have their > equipment autoclaved every six months, just for good measure. It is > all literally in show-room condition. Also, three unopened toner > carts for the Laserwriter... and the person delivered them to me. that's cool! just keep that puppy out of the sunlight. original colour macs are getting hard to find these days... d~ keep collecting, computers! From mbg at world.std.com Tue Nov 9 21:23:38 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? Message-ID: <199911100323.WAA24901@world.std.com> >for a nice writeup of how the rules work). Unfortunately the RT-11 >developers chose to ignore these rules in picking their "default" second >CSR for RT-11, but of course you could choose to follow these rules >by ignoring the SYSGEN-suggested secondary (and tertiary and whatever >comes after) DU CSR's. Okay, as one of the developers involved with RT-11 at the time the DU handler was first developed after we actually got some prototype MSCP controllers, I have to respond... At the time we got the controllers, the primary address had already been defined, but the secondary and subsequent addresses were assumed to be allocated out of the floating CSR and floating vector areas. It wasn't until some later time that it was decided that the secondary and subsequent addresses were to be fixed and had a certain algorithm for determining. By that time, SYSGEN had already been modified. It was decided that 1) for backwards compatibility and 2) since the addresses can be changed with SET CSRn and VECn, SYSGEN wouldn't be changed. We didn't ignore the defaults, there were none at the time to ignore. Finally, there is the problem of the SBC-11/21[+], where the 'standard' MSCP address is actually in a pre-allocated area, so it has to be located elsewhere (176150)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 9 21:28:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Nov 09, 1999 06:42:37 PM Message-ID: <199911100328.TAA28481@shell1.aracnet.com> > ObClassiccmp: I just was given an *immaculate* Mac 512 with over a > hundred disks, a printer, and an original Thunderscan.. all in soft > nylon carry-cases. It was owned by one of those folks who have their > equipment autoclaved every six months, just for good measure. It is > all literally in show-room condition. Also, three unopened toner > carts for the Laserwriter... and the person delivered them to me. > > Must be Kharma! > OK, someone mind explaining what "autoclaved" is, or is that a typo, and if so what should it be? --Confused From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 9 21:33:42 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions Message-ID: <0.bad97bf3.255a4196@aol.com> In a message dated 11/9/99 10:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > ObClassiccmp: I just was given an *immaculate* Mac 512 with over a > > hundred disks, a printer, and an original Thunderscan.. all in soft > > nylon carry-cases. It was owned by one of those folks who have their > > equipment autoclaved every six months, just for good measure. It is > > all literally in show-room condition. Also, three unopened toner > > carts for the Laserwriter... and the person delivered them to me. > > > > Must be Kharma! > > > > OK, someone mind explaining what "autoclaved" is, or is that a typo, and if > so what should it be? > > --Confused an autoclave is what they use to sterilize lab equipment. I think it just gets very hot. No water involved. d~ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 9 21:39:28 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: <199911100328.TAA28481@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 09, 1999 07:28:54 PM Message-ID: <199911100339.UAA20634@calico.litterbox.com> > > > ObClassiccmp: I just was given an *immaculate* Mac 512 with over a > > hundred disks, a printer, and an original Thunderscan.. all in soft > > nylon carry-cases. It was owned by one of those folks who have their > > equipment autoclaved every six months, just for good measure. It is > > all literally in show-room condition. Also, three unopened toner > > carts for the Laserwriter... and the person delivered them to me. > > > > Must be Kharma! > > > > OK, someone mind explaining what "autoclaved" is, or is that a typo, and if > so what should it be? An autoclave is a device that sterilizes stuff. Usually surgical equipment and such. Not sure what the process used is, my impression is it's heat. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 9 21:36:07 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions References: <0.bad97bf3.255a4196@aol.com> Message-ID: <3828E827.ADD6FFC6@mainecoon.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/9/99 10:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > healyzh@aracnet.com writes: [stuff deleted] > > > > OK, someone mind explaining what "autoclaved" is, or is that a typo, and if > > so what should it be? > > > > --Confused > > an autoclave is what they use to sterilize lab equipment. I think it just > gets very hot. No water involved. Actually it's heat and pressure, which in most cases is implemented using superheated steam (hence the pressure-cooker style latches and the pressure gauges usually found on autoclaves). Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com From transit at primenet.com Tue Nov 9 21:46:49 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Speaking of CoCo floppies (was: Re: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991109220845.00a19de0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I have a FD-502 where the cable separated from the cartridge. I don't know how easy it would be to put back together (was it soldered on? I don't think so). The terminals where the cable used to be are tiny, v-shaped clips... As far as I know, the drive itself should be ok, although I obviously haven't tested them . . . I'd like to know if this is relatively easy to repair (I can solder, though I haven't done so in a long time). If not, I'm willing to sell it to someone who's a bit more handy . . . Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mrdos at swbell.net Tue Nov 9 21:51:13 1999 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! Message-ID: <000601bf2b2e$d6406e60$162ba497@compaq> Where in Texas are people giving stuff away? From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Nov 9 21:56:18 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: <3828E827.ADD6FFC6@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: There is also a non-heat ethylene oxide based sterilizing process that is sometimes used. Paul On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 11/9/99 10:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > [stuff deleted] > > > > > > > OK, someone mind explaining what "autoclaved" is, or is that a typo, and if > > > so what should it be? > > > > > > --Confused > > > > an autoclave is what they use to sterilize lab equipment. I think it just > > gets very hot. No water involved. > > Actually it's heat and pressure, which in most cases is implemented > using superheated steam (hence the pressure-cooker style latches and > the pressure gauges usually found on autoclaves). > > Best, > Chris > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 9 22:26:26 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Anyone got a spare RA92 frontpanel? (Every fscking time...) Message-ID: <13498367352.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I swear, (Boy do I swear!) every time I put my hands on something, every time I think I got something figured out... My RA92's front panel appears to have been roached. I don't know how or why. Upon dragging (Not literally) the thing up to the 5th floor from the basement, and applying power (Not connected to the controller), the display (Which normally says WAIT for a few seconds) is blank. Funny. So I screwed with it for awhile. If I jiggle it around, I can get garbage (usually) but after about a half hour of screwing around, I pulled the drive's front plate off, and looked around the insides. The logic inside and the cables are all in immaculate shape. They look brand new. So I reassembled the drive and pulled the front panel apart. It looks OK too. So I put the drive back together. Argued with it another 45 minutes. Finally, I got lucky and got a spot where, for about 5 minutes, I could work the panel. The FAULT light was lit, the error code was "E B4". I tried spinning the drive up, and then the panel glitched and reset. The drive spun up and checked (and it sounded OK), but then it spun down and faulted E B4 again (it must have realized the panel is screwed.) The drive shows no inclination of working without it. Moving the panel around makes the panel flash random lights and display garbage, so I think the panel's bad. Can anyone prove/disprove this? I have no docs so I dunno what the error code means. I did get the E B4 several times, so I think that's good data. It might not be. ------- From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 9 22:26:03 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Exormacs and Versados In-Reply-To: from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at Nov 9, 99 09:12:28 pm Message-ID: <199911100426.XAA09128@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991109/c02f9779/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 9 22:52:02 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: RX02 switch settings and RX8E bootstrap needed Message-ID: <19991110045202.28574.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> *Somewhere* I have the docs for this, but can someone please post the settings in an RX02 drive for the various modes? Plus, I'm *this close* to getting my PDP-8/e back on its feet (with the MS8 hex memory board for now - core later). I only have an MR8-E for the TD8E bootstrap, not for RX8-E. Can someone please post the floppy boot code to toggle in? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Nov 9 22:56:29 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? References: <991109200155.20200252@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3828FAFC.70CBF642@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > [Snip] > >effort it would be. Tim, maybe you could figure out what code > >references the PART and PORT values and see if the 2 bits in > >use for the PORT could be placed at the top of the word and > >6 extra bits made available to the PART for a maximum number > >of 16384 partitions and a 512 GByte drive. > Sure, this is done fairly easily. You have to modify not only the > SET overlay usage inside the DU handler, but also the parts of RESORC.SAV > responsible for SHOW DEV:DU. (Working from memory, the relevant parts > are in RESDEV.MAC on the source kit - I was fooling around with this > earlier this year to add multi-CSR display capability.) Jerome Fine replies: OOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSS!!!!! I forgot that "SHOW DEV:DU" in not in the device handler. I guess I could add a bit in the device handler that is not used at present (somewhere there must be a bit left over) that could allow a different layout for the map table. I have dabbled with a PATH Handler in RT-11 which allows the same kind of search list as the logical name list in VMS or DOS does for executables via the PATH. The only restriction is that the PHn: allows only a maximum of 16 device names in the list. Eventually, I will post the code to be used in the Freeware. The reason I mention this is because I needed a method for the user to "SHOW" the various device names associated with each PATH device "PHn:", so I placed some code in the device handler which allowed: "SET PH SHOW[=job number]". Since it is possible to use overlays within SET commands, I just brought in the code as required to analyse the table set up for each job. After I finally had done this, I wondered why this procedure was not used for the MSCP "SHOW DEV:DU" command since it would have allowed the necessary code to remain with the device driver rather than having RESORC always have to co-ordinate all the time with any changes which occurred in the device driver. > The real question is, will I ever have so much RT-11 software/data that > I need access to more than 8 Gbytes? I've got a wall of 8" floppies here, > over 7000 floppies in total, but all 7000 floppies together (even assuming > double density) are only 3.5 Gbytes! (And less than half of those 8" floppies > are RT-11 stuff in the first place - the rest being WPS/8 and CP/M stuff.) I suggest that an even better reason is that keeping track of 256 partitions will be difficult enough. Keeping track of 16384 partitions would become almost impossible. NO! Leave the code the way it is and allow ONLY 256 possible partitions. One enhancement that I have added to DIR is a switch to: "/VOLUME:starting-block-number[:nested-starting-block-number[...]]" which allows DIR to produce the DIRECTORY of a DSK without needing to MOUNT the DSK or the sub DSK files - up to any level of nesting. I realize that very strange things can happen if the data being read is not a DIRECTORY, but that can happen if the DSK has just been CREATEd and MOUNTed without doing the "INIT LDn:" command. So I don't feel that there is any inherent problem with allowing DIR to do this, except that if DIR does not sufficiently check the data in the first place (which it may not sufficiently do in some cases), it could cause a problem even if the DSK had first been MOUNTed but not INITIALIZEd. If there is any interest in this feature, it will also be eventually put into Freeware. > >Tim, do you have the search algorithm for alternate CSR addresses > >when the standard CSR DU MSCP address of 172150 is either > >not available at all or is a removable floppy with no media present? > The "DEC standard" way of determining alternate CSR's is to follow > the autoconfigure rules (see > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/alans.csr.paper > > for a nice writeup of how the rules work). Unfortunately the RT-11 > developers chose to ignore these rules in picking their "default" second > CSR for RT-11, but of course you could choose to follow these rules > by ignoring the SYSGEN-suggested secondary (and tertiary and whatever > comes after) DU CSR's. I probably already have. One of the systems which I have available has about 6 MSCP device drivers. Naturally DU is present at 172150, but I also have an VR (quad RQDX2,1), QR (dual RQDX3), HI (for Hitachi ESDI drives), SE (for Seagate ESDI drives), CM (for a CQD host adapter) which I intend to use with that 9.1 GByte Micropolis SCSI? drive and a CD-ROM and a Zip drive. Since I already have a SE12400N of 2 GBytes, I doubt that I will ever bother with the 9.1 GByte drive. But who can tell? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 9 23:05:49 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911100241.SAA19770@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Nov 9, 99 06:41:32 pm Message-ID: <199911100505.AAA09837@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2481 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/55cbe1da/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Tue Nov 9 23:18:57 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: New additions Message-ID: <199911100518.AAA25930@world.std.com> >An autoclave is a device that sterilizes stuff. Usually surgical >equipment and such. Not sure what the process used is, my impression is >it's heat. I thought it was steam under pressure... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 9 23:43:46 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! In-Reply-To: <19991110031550.1608.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991109213654.0205fbf0@mcmanis.com> At 03:15 AM 11/10/99 +0000, Mr. Diablo wrote: >"Does anybody know of anywhere in southwest Michigan where one can find >older surplus minicomputer and workstation equipment?" What kind of equipment are you looking for? How much room do you have? What are your interests and what are you trying to achieve? If you just want to find "older equipment" then your best bet is to look in the Yellow Pages under "Scrap Metal", that will give you some places to check out. Then if there are any "business to business" type Yellow Pages outfits get a copy and look under recycling, computers, scrap, and hauling to find advertisements from people trying to entice businesses to sell them their old computers as scrap. Then look in the classified section of a newspaper that has a reasonably large circulation, or a newspaper from the nearest city of more than 1 million people, and check out the "Public Notices" of sale and auctions for businesses that are being liquidated. Go to the auction and see if you can find some contacts there. After a short while, rent a warehouse because if you start seriously asking for stuff it _will_ start arriving and you will be inundated! --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 10 00:03:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Apple ii-c questions Message-ID: <000c01bf2b41$5fa0b720$0400c0a8@winbook> I've had this more or less useless Apple-iic sitting about, always suspecting it could be used for something, and I've had a couple of ideas, but I'm curious whether it uses the same DOS as and has other characteristics similar to the Apple][+. The joystick port seemingly has a few bits of input and the printer port has a few bits of output. It would be amusing to do something useful with this thing. What are the port locations for its internally packaged I/O? Are there ways of expanding the I/O without slowing down for serial I/O? If I open the box, what will I find? Anything capable of handling, say, a PIA? Dick From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 10 01:09:25 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911100505.AAA09837@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <199911100505.AAA09837@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19991110070925.8356.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" posted some analysis of I/O transfer loops on a Color Computer (6809): > Well, the smallest loop I can see is: > POLL LDA <$STATPORT ; 4 [1] > ANDA #TESTBIT ; 2 > Bcc POLL ; 3 > The poll loop is 9 cycles long, and the dataread portion (including Or perhaps: POLL: BITB <$STATPORT ; 4 Bcc POLL ; 3 For a poll loop of 7 cycles, assuming that B is preloaded with the appropriate mask. Still no where close to good enough. The poll loop has to go. > If the hardware is set up such that the DRQ bit is tied to an interrupt > (and for the loop, it's the only active source of interrupts), you can get a > miminum of 17 cycles: > > POLL SYNC ; 2+ > LDA <$DATAPORT ; 4 > STA ,X+ ; 6 > DECB ; 2 > BNE POLL ; 3 > > The only way I can see in speeding this up is to tie the reading of the Or you can partially unroll it and use D: SYNC LDA <$DATAPORT POLL: SYNC ; 2+ LDB <$DATAPORT ; 4 STD ,X++ ; 8 SYNC ; 2+ LDA <$DATAPORT ; 4 DECB ; 2 BNE POLL ; 3 SYNC LDB <$DATAPORT STD ,X+ which gets you down to minimum times of 14 and 11 cycles on alternate bytes. B needs to be preloaded with (sector_size/2)-1. Unfortunately 14 cycles is too close to the limit. For a write operation, you might be able to do slightly better by using "PULU A,B" in place of "LDD ,X++", saving one cycle. > Now, given the same hardware (tieing DRQ to the DATAPORT to cause the CPU > to wait until ready) plus a signal that indicates the end of the transfer > tied to the NMI, you can save an additional two cycles: > > POLL LDA <$DATAPORT ; 4 > STA ,X+ ; 6 > BRA POLL ; 3 > > For 13 cycles, or on a Coco, 14.6uSecs (minimum). At the cost of some Might be good enough. It would be nice to have more margin for speed variation, and I don't think that the Coco can generate an NMI on completion, although in this case an IRQ should do. Of course, the hardware also would have to be designed to release the wait when the interrupt occurs. Partially unrolling this one but NOT using the completion interrupt yields: LDA <$DATAPORT POLL: LDB <$DATAPORT ; 4 STD ,X++ ; 8 LDA <$DATAPORT ; 4 DECB ; 2 BNE POLL ; 3 SYNC LDB <$DATAPORT STD ,X+ For a minimum of 12 and 9 cycles on alternate bytes. I think this one allows sufficient margin that it should work even if the disk is running 15% fast. Based on what Tony said, it sounds like the Coco's FDC hardware can probably support it. Like I said several posts back, transferring a byte every 16 microseconds on a sub 1 MHz processor is tricky. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Nov 10 01:56:30 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <19991110070925.8356.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 10, 99 07:09:25 am Message-ID: <199911100756.CAA12850@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/feba9b1a/attachment.ksh From denic at liii.com Wed Nov 10 05:15:45 1999 From: denic at liii.com (Dennis N. Aruta) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: ASR 33, KSR 43, Friden Flexowriter Message-ID: Thanks for the Feedback and/or interest in these items. I will revert if and when I can establish a value price, and the problem, crating, packaging, shipping, as I am located in Long Island NY, and would prefer to deliver it FOB, LI NY. Perhaps you may have some interest in these machines? Currently have 3 ASR 33's 2 with omni modems, one with relays 1 KSR 33 programable 1 Friden Flexowriter, that I saw as imput to a cray computer at a computer museum on the web. Dennis Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) & International Commerce List (c), INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE + SHIPS Visit my Message Board FireTalk 34260 denic ICQ #174727 Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com DenicNY@aol.com From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 10 05:14:04 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911100756.CAA12850@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <199911100756.CAA12850@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19991110111404.9941.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > Again, the same bug as above. The D register is A and B combined (A being > MSB, and B being LSB). Fine. Just use Y instead. It does add two cycles, but since it's to the path that was three cycles faster, it doesn't really matter: LDA <$DATAPORT POLL: LDB <$DATAPORT ; 4 STD ,X++ ; 8 LDA <$DATAPORT ; 4 LEAY -1,Y ; 4 BNE POLL ; 3 LDB <$DATAPORT STD ,X+ So it's now a minimum of 12 and 11 cycles on alternate bytes. Or, if you insist on using the completion interrupt to abort the loop: LDA <$DATAPORT POLL: LDB <$DATAPORT ; 4 STD ,X++ ; 8 LDA <$DATAPORT ; 4 BRA POLL ; 3 Which has a minimum of 12 and 7 cycles. I'm not sure whether the completion interrupt will happen before the last STD; if it does, the interrupt handler will have to copy the final two bytes from the interrupt stack frame (for IRQ or NMI) or it's own save (for FIRQ). Either way, the worst case is 12 cycles, which gives nearly twice the speed tolerance you'd get at 13 cycles (15% vs. 8%). Cheers, Eric From black at gco.apana.org.au Wed Nov 10 05:51:45 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Needed.... Message-ID: <004801bf2b71$f8e7c1a0$4281868b@bigpond.com> Hopefully someone here can help...... I'm after a keyboard for a PET 2001 - the original chiclet style, screen printed job. I've got a working 2001, but the keyboard has been more or less destroyed to the point where it is beyond repair. So if someone has a broken PET with a functional keyboard, I'd be really, really, really appreciative if they would part with it..... Thanks, Lance PS: I'm in OZ, but on such a small component, I'm willing to take it from anywhere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/720f4bdc/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 10 07:18:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <19991110070925.8356.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Like I said several posts back, transferring a byte every 16 microseconds > on a sub 1 MHz processor is tricky. My experience, plan for a worst case of a byte every 13 microseconds, that gives a bit more room. Doing that with a 6809 (and many others) is difficult without DMA hardware. Of course 1.44 3.5" floppy drives can be used at 720k (or pushed to 780k) without incurring the data rate probles as that would be 27uS worst case. That would allow common drives and media with standard 5.25" DD rates. for some systems this is a drop in mod or at most a matter of informing the driver that there are 80 cylinders available if it was written for 40track (cylinder) 5.25" drives. Allison From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Nov 10 09:28:59 1999 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Unidentified terminal with built in modem Message-ID: As I was digging through a box of computer surplus I came across the following: Dun/brown colored terminal device with what looks like a 3" high display with a pair of foam cups, acoustic modem, on the back. Full size keyboard. It looks like a calculator except for the qwerty keyboard and the modem. Labeled as follows Computer Devices series 2000 I've searched both altavista, google, and yahoo and I haven't found anything close. Maybe I need to examine it more closely. Does anybody have any ideas? Thanks Mike From stcs at tap.de Wed Nov 10 10:53:15 1999 From: stcs at tap.de (theo stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <01bf2b9c$14d30710$42ee903e@theo-nt> Hi There, If you still have that old HP 9000/300 computer, let me know. I know it?s kind of late asking after 6 months. Maybe you still have it. Thanks Theo Stevens -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/af12dc33/attachment.html From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Nov 10 11:21:36 1999 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies Message-ID: I just acquired 3 convergent technologies computers. They are a series of modules that plug together, each module is the size of a very thick book. They have external power supplies with a 2 foot long cable with snap connectors to connect power supply to module. The modules plus together along the side and a latch locks the connection. No tools needed to add/remove memory. The computers power up and LED's come on. The information I got from the web doesn't say what kind of CPU chip was used, what the computers were designed for and if they are still supported. From several web searches I think these machines ran CTOS which was dropped by Unisys. The date on the inside of the cases is 1983 and 1984. Module 1 CPU with 3 extra memory modules, one labeled datapoint, one convergent tech, one burroughs Module 2 Hard disk 10MB ST225 Module 3 5 1/4 floppy drive Module 1 CPU Module 2 hard disk 90MB Module 3 5 1/4 floppy Module 4 40-60 MB tape drive I picked up 8 power supplies, and 10-20 cables, no manuals. One cable has two right angle db9 connectors that seem to be made to connect "cluster controller" connector in the side of the CPU. Other looks like terminal cable. Does anyone know what kind of terminal would work? Any other information would be appreciated. Thanks Mike McFadden From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 10 13:21:03 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: NCR model 4 Message-ID: <199911101921.TAA05549@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Does someone desperately want a NCR model 4? I know nothing about it, no software as far as i know, etc. It has a 5 1/4 floppy and a hard drive installed in the 2 bays. -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Nov 10 13:41:39 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:27 2005 Subject: async mux pinout? Message-ID: <4.1.19991110113759.043da100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Does anyone have the wiring lists for the CXA16 aync multiplexers? I've got one with the S-box handles that I'd like to mount in my uVAX 3900 instead of the DHV11 (which has its ribbon cables squeezing out between a paid of blank covers.) But I need the break out cable in order to plug in terminals to it. Alternatively if you have a spare cable ... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 12:40:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of CoCo floppies (was: Re: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Nov 9, 99 07:46:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/0bb47150/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 13:07:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RX02 switch settings and RX8E bootstrap needed In-Reply-To: <19991110045202.28574.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 9, 99 08:52:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/e8dcde98/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 13:34:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911100505.AAA09837@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Nov 10, 99 00:05:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2470 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/f32321bf/attachment.ksh From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Nov 10 14:46:09 1999 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: new additions (OT) Autoclaves Message-ID: A pressure cooker is basically an autoclave. When canning vegetables the heat and pressure destroy any pathogens. Autoclaving is used to sterilize instruments and medical devices. The instruments are usually enclosed in a porous package that allows the moisture into the package and keeps any contaminants out. The high pressure with moisture is designed to activate and destroy any bacterial spores that may be in the package. There is usually a heat activated strip in the tape on the package that changes from invisible to brown and says "sterile". Any device that could be damaged by heat such as a plastic catheter can be "cold sterilized" by ethylene oxide gas. This is not as effective as the heat/moisture method. Also used on medical waste to reduce the chances of spread of disease. Many medical devices are now sterilized by ionizing radiation, gamma particles, a radiation source is exposed next to cases of the products and hopefully "zaps" the DNA in any contaminants. Another use of autoclaves is to laminate layers of carbon fiber cloth to create composite aircraft and machine parts. The heat and pressure cause the bonding agents, such as epoxy, to bind the layers together. I think the B2 and F117 skins are created by this process. More than anyone wants to know about autoclaves. Mike McFadden From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 10 16:34:15 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: more junk Message-ID: <199911102234.WAA09314@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, my local campus computer repair shop called, asking if i wanted some junk they had. I picked up a trs80 model 1 (looks like I need to find a cassette player), a apple ][ plus with various mods installed and a analog/digital board, and a compaq portable III. Not bad for walking 2.5 blocks from my office. The NCR i mentioned earlier was too heavy, 80 pounds or so, so i left it. The apple ][ plus has, among other mods, a modification near the keyboard and speaker. A raised board with 2 IC's and a socket, its connected to one of the IC sockets on the main board, plus it has a 4 wire cable with connector. For some reason this is not plugged in. Am I correct it guessing this might be a lowercase modification, and that its unplugged to restore normal operation? any idea what the correct way to plug the connector in is? It looks like i could plug it in backwards as well as the normal way, so I have a 50/50 chance of making a major mistake... -Lawrence LeMay From helicopterman at webtv.net Wed Nov 10 16:57:02 1999 From: helicopterman at webtv.net (helicopterman@webtv.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low Message-ID: <21177-3829F83E-848@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> gentlemen, the featureless panels are definitely from a Univac file 0 computer and even though they were commercially available in large numbers i doubt you have a piece of one. if you do not have a piece i will be glad to have your bid on my ebay offerings. how can you blame ebay for my ads? do you think the "pieces" would keep selling if the bidders were not satisfied? i am not the person who was selling the system 360 pieces, but sounds like he had a good deal too:)) a side note to mrbill. i took a look at your pages and they are complex and beautiful BUT you have a large number of links on the sun page all highlighted together. i know you will want to fix that. i do not intend to start a war with this letter, just to let you know my position and that you have hurt my feelings:(( "pathetic" ed =====Ed From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 17:01:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: more junk In-Reply-To: <199911102234.WAA09314@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Nov 10, 99 10:34:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1211 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/499a6943/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 10 17:23:59 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: more junk In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 10, 1999 11:01:43 pm" Message-ID: <199911102324.XAA10197@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > The NCR i mentioned earlier was too heavy, 80 pounds or so, so i left it. > > > > The apple ][ plus has, among other mods, a modification near the keyboard > > and speaker. A raised board with 2 IC's and a socket, its connected to one > > of the IC sockets on the main board, plus it has a 4 wire cable with connector. > > For some reason this is not plugged in. Am I correct it guessing this might > > be a lowercase modification, and that its unplugged to restore normal > > I don't know if this is what you've got, but I remember one of the 80 > column video cards for the Apple ][ had a kludge-board like that to pick > up some timing signals from the motherboard. You pulled a chip from the > motherboard, stuck it into the klugdgeboard and then pluged the > kludgeboard into the (now-empty) IC socket. The 80 column card went in an > expansion slot (slot 3 IIRC) as usual, and a ribbon cable linked it to > the kludgeboard. > > > operation? any idea what the correct way to plug the connector in is? It > > Where do you think it goes. The 4 pin plugs in the rear right corner of > the motherboard are video outputs (+ power lines), normally used for an > RF modulator. I would be _very_ supprised if it connected there. There is also a 4 pin connector in the lower left corner, ie, as far from the video as is possible. > > -tony > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 10 17:28:10 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <21177-3829F83E-848@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> from "helicopterman@webtv.net" at "Nov 10, 1999 05:57:02 pm" Message-ID: <199911102328.XAA10237@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, I cant even view the ebay listing in question. All i see is a small box advertizing pr-tracker, and 2 horizonal lines. -Lawrence LeMay > gentlemen, > > the featureless panels are definitely from a Univac file 0 computer and > even though they were commercially available in large numbers i doubt > you have a piece of one. > > if you do not have a piece i will be glad to have your bid on my ebay > offerings. > > how can you blame ebay for my ads? do you think the "pieces" would keep > selling if the bidders were not satisfied? > > i am not the person who was selling the system 360 pieces, but sounds > like he had a good deal too:)) > > a side note to mrbill. i took a look at your pages and they are complex > and beautiful BUT you have a large number of links on the sun page all > highlighted together. i know you will want to fix that. > > i do not intend to start a war with this letter, just to let you know my > position and that you have hurt my feelings:(( > > "pathetic" ed > > =====Ed > From spc at armigeron.com Wed Nov 10 17:28:59 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 10, 99 07:34:35 pm Message-ID: <199911102329.SAA30135@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 753 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/f57a5f74/attachment.ksh From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed Nov 10 17:05:36 1999 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Ed's response [WAS: Ebay reaches new low] Message-ID: <02fc01bf2bd0$19974840$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Ed, since I started this thread, maybe I can respond to some of your points. I don't blame e-bay or you for running the ads (it's a free continent), but I think you've crossed a line of common sense or fair business practice. In short, my objections to your ads are as follows: 1) You're selling such tiny pieces that they'd be easy to fake 2) Even as collectibles, they're not very interesting, and 3) I'd prefer to preserve old computers, not cut them up for scrap. Sorry for hurting your feelings, but consider: There are a lot of scammers out there - in the art and antiques world, fakes and reproductions abound. Old and historic computers are starting to attract serious money, so the incentive to create computer fakes is growing. To be blunt, you carve your scrap into such small pieces that I could saw up an old file cabinet or raid my spares box and I could make pieces indistinguishable from what you're selling. You don't even have any pictures of the parts in place before you carved up the machine to act as a "provenance" - the bills of sale just prove that you had a Univac at one time. Please note, I'm not accusing you of lying or faking anything - I'm just saying that it would be easy to produce such fakes, so "buyer beware". And, even as collectibles, I don't feel that what you're selling is not very interesting. Old vacuum tubes, circuit boards, and hard drive platters/innards at least have some visual interest. If you can sell 6" x 10" pieces of painted metal as historic computer collectibles, you're a heck of a salesman. Most importantly, the members of this list are generally people who want to preserve/restore old computers in working condition. We are always on the prowl for rare or unusual computers and spare parts. Increasingly, some older computers are being carved up to produce collectibles like the ones you sell. A concrete example is core memory planes from PDP-8 computers; some people rip these out of old 8s and hang them on the wall as art - most of us would prefer to preserve the working machine. Just my thoughts. Mark. -----Original Message----- From: helicopterman@webtv.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Ebay reaches new low >gentlemen, >the featureless panels are definitely from a Univac file 0 computer and >even though they were commercially available in large numbers i doubt >you have a piece of one. >if you do not have a piece i will be glad to have your bid on my ebay >offerings. >how can you blame ebay for my ads? do you think the "pieces" would keep >selling if the bidders were not satisfied? >i am not the person who was selling the system 360 pieces, but sounds >like he had a good deal too:)) >i do not intend to start a war with this letter, just to let you know my >position and that you have hurt my lings:(( >"pathetic" ed >=====Ed From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Nov 10 17:49:49 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! References: <4.2.0.58.19991109213654.0205fbf0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <000701bf2bd6$47aed8a0$54701fd1@jrkeysppt> Very true a warehouse is a must if you are into the larger equipment. Try find something or some line of computers you like the best and stay within that otherwise you will be like some of us that very large collections of everything and nothing complete. Good luck. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 11:43 PM Subject: Re: Looking for old equipment -- please help! > At 03:15 AM 11/10/99 +0000, Mr. Diablo wrote: > >"Does anybody know of anywhere in southwest Michigan where one can find > >older surplus minicomputer and workstation equipment?" > > What kind of equipment are you looking for? How much room do you have? What > are your interests and what are you trying to achieve? > > If you just want to find "older equipment" then your best bet is to look in > the Yellow Pages under "Scrap Metal", that will give you some places to > check out. Then if there are any "business to business" type Yellow Pages > outfits get a copy and look under recycling, computers, scrap, and hauling > to find advertisements from people trying to entice businesses to sell them > their old computers as scrap. Then look in the classified section of a > newspaper that has a reasonably large circulation, or a newspaper from the > nearest city of more than 1 million people, and check out the "Public > Notices" of sale and auctions for businesses that are being liquidated. Go > to the auction and see if you can find some contacts there. > > After a short while, rent a warehouse because if you start seriously asking > for stuff it _will_ start arriving and you will be inundated! > > --Chuck > > > From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Nov 10 17:58:19 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <21177-3829F83E-848@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <21177-3829F83E-848@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <19991110175819.M23192@mrbill.net> On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 05:57:02PM -0500, helicopterman@webtv.net wrote: > a side note to mrbill. i took a look at your pages and they are complex > and beautiful BUT you have a large number of links on the sun page all > highlighted together. i know you will want to fix that. I wrote back to him telling him that this was intentional, and that clicking on the bunch of news items that are all one link takes you to the news page with the full articles and not just the headers. Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From elvey at hal.com Wed Nov 10 18:08:45 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911102329.SAA30135@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199911110008.QAA24146@civic.hal.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > If the direct addressing mode is used for instructions one and three, you > get 4 cycles each, 5 for extended (16 bit) addressing. So this sequence > (depending upon the addressing mode used) will take 17 to 19 cycles per byte > to run (excluding wait states). Hi Another factor, the sectors for DOS formatted disk are 512 bytes long. Any loop that only does 256 won't make it. It would need to be formatted with more wasteful 256 byte sectors. This has been a good line of thought ;) One of the other things I remember about these controllers is that at 32us, you need to read the data byte within 27us of DRQ. I would think that this would hold for 13.5us for a 16us transfer. It truely doesn't look like there is a way to do it with anything but DMA. Here is another idea that I fling like a monkey at the zoo. Use a small PIC chip to read the 1.44 disk. Have a small disk cache RAM to hold a buffer ( Not a lot of hardware, so far ). Connect the unit to the CoCo, how ever one would like. Even emulating the original controller so no software needs to be modified, just the effective size of the physical disk ( or map as multiple disk ). Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 10 18:01:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911110008.QAA24146@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey on Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:08:45 -0800 (PST)) References: <199911110008.QAA24146@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <19991111000102.15487.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > One of the other things I remember about these controllers > is that at 32us, you need to read the data byte within > 27us of DRQ. I would think that this would hold for > 13.5us for a 16us transfer. It truely doesn't look like > there is a way to do it with anything but DMA. I posted a loop with a worst-case (minimum) cycle count of 12 cycles, which is 13.48 us. It looks like mine is under the wire (barely). It doesn't need DMA but it does need the automatic wait state generation. So it's fortunate that the Coco FDC has it. Tony's posting suggests that it is necessary to rearm the wait state gnerator for every byte. If that's true, my loop will take too long. But a look at the NitrOS9 cc3disk11.a source file's read loop suggests that it is not necessary. Their loop is: L0197 lda >$FF4B Get byte from controller sta ,x+ Store into sector buffer * stb >$FF40 Drive info nop -- blobstop fix bra L0197 Keep reading until sector done I'm not sure what the "blobstop" fix is, or why there's a "stb >$FF40" in the loop, but the store is commented out. I think the loop I proposed should drop in here just fine. Eric From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Nov 10 18:25:10 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RA81 questions. Message-ID: <13498585573.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, since the RA92 is OOC until I figure out how to kludge a fix, I guess i get to either go back to the RA81 or give up. (I have no other disks.) Anyway, when I last left it, the RA81 was complaining of seek errors, the panel lights had all burned out, and it was making scary noises. If I reformat the drive (Will RT11 do this?) will it rewrite the positioner information, or is that permanently written from the factory? The RA81 is really really heavy, and sucks a lot of amps, and I really don't know if it'll fit in the cabinet, so I really don't want to try playing with it unless it's saveable. So, questions are, is there any way to fix the disk short of a new HDA, can I replace the panel lights with LEDs, and can RT-11 format it? ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 17:32:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Ebay reaches new low In-Reply-To: <21177-3829F83E-848@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> from "helicopterman@webtv.net" at Nov 10, 99 05:57:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1404 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991110/d8313808/attachment.ksh From jlewczyk at his.com Wed Nov 10 19:49:35 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor Message-ID: <005401bf2be7$01d02080$013da8c0@Corellian> Hi, I'm trying to compile a list of computers and other hardware that contained the venerable Intel 8008 microprocessor. So far this is the list of 8008 based computers that have been made aware of: 1973 "Micral" by R2E (later merged with Bull) Made in France 1973 "Intellec-8" by Intel (development system) 1974 "Scelbi-8H" by Scelbi Consulting (kit and assembled) 1974 "Mark-8" by Jon Titus in Radio Electronics 7/74. Plans and PC boards only. 1974 "008A Microcomputer Kit" RGS Electonics. Plans and all parts, except cabinet and assorted hardware. ? PopTronics (Popular Electronics?) <-- Does anyone know anything about this? What issue would it have been in if it was in that magazine. ? Homebrew systems. I'll compile a list of people who have made these if they want to go public :-) Got a picture? I'd like to also compile a list of other 8008 based machines - one where the 8008 was an embedded controller. If you have any info, such as manufacturer, model number, date of introduction, etc. please let me know. ? Terminal (Not Datapoint I understand, perhaps Beehive?) ? Front panel of a PDP-11? computer ? Instrument Test equipment ? Pinball Machine ! Datapoint 2200 (architecture was the model for the 8008, was built using LSI, not an 8008) Can you contribute anything to this list? I'll post it on my web site and hope to catch comments, add facts to it. Post to the list or to me if you'd like. Thanks! John Lewczyk jlewczyk@his.com www.his.com\jlewczyk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 19:27:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <19991111000102.15487.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 11, 99 00:01:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2241 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/8bb34c48/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 19:17:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911102329.SAA30135@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Nov 10, 99 06:28:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/c7a42f26/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 19:31:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911110008.QAA24146@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Nov 10, 99 04:08:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/8fef4029/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 19:34:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RA81 questions. In-Reply-To: <13498585573.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 10, 99 04:25:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 668 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/2a750d6a/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed Nov 10 20:06:08 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911110206.SAA24272@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Another factor, the sectors for DOS formatted disk are > > 512 bytes long. Any loop that only does 256 won't make it. > > It would need to be formatted with more wasteful 256 byte > > sectors. This has been a good line of thought ;) > > Is this a problem? Firstly, who says you'd use an MS-DOS format -- the > CoCo uses 256 byte sectors for virtually everything, and I'd suggest > keeping to that on the HD disks, just having more of them. As to being > more wasteful, well, MS-DOS 360K (and 720K) disks fit 9 512byte sectors > on a track, the CoCo fits 18 256byte sectors. Looks the same to me. > > And the 6809 index registers (X, Y, etc) are 16 bit registers. The loop I > posted (and the ones others have posted) will transfer 512 bytes if you > want them to. Whether there's a speed penalty when you cross a 256 byte > boundary I don't know -- I don't remember anything like that in the 6809 > instruction set, but it's been many years. Hi Tony If this is true, it looks like it is possible to work wonders with this chip ;) The reason for doing DOS compatable disk is that it makes transfers of info a little easier. Dwight From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Nov 10 20:08:38 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RA81 questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13498604409.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, it DOES have the parts of other tracks to use as refrence. It would find an adjacent track, offset from that, and then write... (Yeah, yeah, I didn't bother even thinking about it.) Or maybe one could step the heads by a set increment... ^_^ ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 20:20:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: <005401bf2be7$01d02080$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at Nov 10, 99 08:49:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/aa13fbb4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 20:24:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911110206.SAA24272@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Nov 10, 99 06:06:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1126 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/ab396c83/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 20:27:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RA81 questions. In-Reply-To: <13498604409.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 10, 99 06:08:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 612 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/6a1e5fdc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 20:31:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: <005401bf2be7$01d02080$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at Nov 10, 99 08:49:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/07f7bff1/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Nov 10 20:46:40 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RX02 switch settings and RX8E bootstrap needed In-Reply-To: <19991110045202.28574.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 09, 1999 08:52:02 PM Message-ID: <199911110246.SAA20668@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Ethan: See http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 There's boot code there in the rx02/rx8e docs. Kevin > > > *Somewhere* I have the docs for this, but can someone please post the > settings in an RX02 drive for the various modes? Plus, I'm *this close* > to getting my PDP-8/e back on its feet (with the MS8 hex memory board for > now - core later). I only have an MR8-E for the TD8E bootstrap, not for > RX8-E. Can someone please post the floppy boot code to toggle in? > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > ===== > Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. > Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 10 22:16:26 1999 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <19991111041626.20469.qmail@hotmail.com> Mike, The Convergent machines did indeed run an OS called CTOS, though usually they weren't seen as Convergent machines. After Sperry-Univac and Burroughs merged into Unisys in 1986, they bought Convergent and continued selling the machines. The ones labeled Convergent ran CTOS, while others were labeled Burroughs and ran BTOS, which was really the same darn thing. However, these machines were OEMed very frequently, which is why I say it's unusual to see them labeled as Convergent. Those early machines were termed "Miniframes" , i.e. small mainframes. Later on, Convergent became one of the billions of clone PC makers, which didn't last long, and then Unisys discontinued use of the brand name. I have no clue what kind of CPU the things have, but if you want to get rid of them... ;p Anyways, I hope my little rant was at least somewhat informative. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 10 22:34:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) Message-ID: <199911110434.XAA22826@world.std.com> <> Is this a problem? Firstly, who says you'd use an MS-DOS format -- the <> CoCo uses 256 byte sectors for virtually everything, and I'd suggest <> keeping to that on the HD disks, just having more of them. As to being <> more wasteful, well, MS-DOS 360K (and 720K) disks fit 9 512byte sectors <> on a track, the CoCo fits 18 256byte sectors. Looks the same to me. My ampro and Kaypro run a 10x512 and 5x1024 format that yeilds 781k. If those sector sizes are awkward then bufer them for host deblocking. Doing that will also get you a mini-cache with a small perfomance increase.. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 10 22:34:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor Message-ID: <199911110434.XAA23017@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 10, 1999 11:34:46 PM Message-ID: <199911110442.UAA32358@shell1.aracnet.com> > Intel also had the MCS-8, more of an SBC and not connector compatable > with MCS-8. Allison, I'm going to guess the above was a typo, but if not how was it not compatible with itself? Zane From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Nov 11 01:28:45 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: A new arrival... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991110232845.00697ae8@agora.rdrop.com> Greetings all; A new arrival joined us tonight, but it looks like he is suffering from a very rough life. A HERO-1, who was fished out of the dumpster (EEK!) a couple of years ago, and rattled around someone's desk ever since as a curiosity. Fortunately, I have a friend who was able to rescue him from this rather unpleasant fate. At first glance, he is in rather sad shape. One of the metal side panels and both of the plastic panels are missing, there are some cracks in the head plastics, the blue foam bar for the sonars is gone, a couple of keycaps from his keypad are missing, and the arm plastics are badly damaged. Mechanically though he seems fairly complete. Some bent metal here and there but nothing too serious, and the wrist is going to need some help. Batterys are completely shot, no charger or teaching pendant, tho I have all that with my other HERO-1. And besides, I've been looking for an excuse to build a 'control console' for Science Fair demos. (big buttons and icons) Electronics look to be in fair condition, I've noted a couple of (common) ICs are missing, and in my first quick look I noted a small junction board mounted on the bottom plate just inside of the back door marked 'Interface board' that puzzled me... Until I pulled the head plastic and found that what I had first thought to be a 'bike flag' (really, a red triangular flag that says "HERO" on a stiff wire), was actually the antenna for the RF remote receiver unit! No apparent options other than the arm (and speech board). Have not checked ROM versions yet... He will need a thorough check out before I consider powering him up. But... all in all, I think he might even make it back to life in time for our next scheduled Science Fair appearance in February. (one can always hope) ...And then there were three! Mayhaps he will join us at VCF IV. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 11 07:13:45 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RX02 switch settings and RX8E bootstrap needed Message-ID: <19991111131345.7412.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Thanks Kevin and Tony. Just what I was looking for. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 11 07:31:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: <199911110442.UAA32358@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Intel also had the MCS-8, more of an SBC and not connector compatable > > with MCS-8. > > Allison, > I'm going to guess the above was a typo, but if not how was it not > compatible with itself? I meant the damm intellec-8. Allison From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Nov 11 07:35:49 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! Message-ID: <0.51b01c93.255c2035@aol.com> At 03:15 AM 11/10/99 +0000, Mr. Diablo wrote: > >"Does anybody know of anywhere in southwest Michigan where one can find > >older surplus minicomputer and workstation equipment?" West central Indiana is not the far away. On Tue, 09 Nov 1999 @ 21:43:46, Chuck McManis wrote: < words of advice snipped > > After a short while, rent a warehouse because if you start seriously asking > for stuff it _will_ start arriving and you will be inundated! Never were truer words spoken by a wiser man ;-) My first mess of DEC equipment came from someone who called me. The next thing I know I am wondering where to store it all while I sort it out. The latest call was to see if I was interested in a mess of Intel boxes. Hard to say no, when who knows what goodies might be lurking inside the next machine you pull the cover off of. One thing early on is to convince your significant other that there is nothing abnormal about having multiple computers in multiple rooms of the house. Mike From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Nov 11 07:43:21 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram References: Message-ID: <382AC7F9.D59316D1@olf.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I need a RS232 transputer tram for a project I am planning on doing. I > > really dont want to access the PCs serial port due to speed considerations, > > etc. So does anyone have such a beast for sale?? I dont know what inmos > > part number it is, but transtech had one called TTM21 and Sundance had one > > I don;t recall Inmos ever making one... > Neither do I. But who knows, if it does exists it might be a proto-type or something. > > > called STM220. Thanks > > You know, I wonder if it would be less work to take a T2 and hang some > kind of serial chip off it. Should be able to make said RS232 TRAM in 4 > or 5 chips. If I knew how to do it, I can probably put it together. Here are pictures of Sundance's STM220 RS232 tram http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1190/images/s220.jpg http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1190/images/s220fbw.gif and a little description of it: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1190/s220.htm For transtech's TTM21, check out the following link: http://www.transtech.com/transpdf/ttm21.pdf Can someone here come up with a circuit diagram to make one???? I certainly can't :-( Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/c650c545/attachment.html From truthanl at oclc.org Thu Nov 11 07:57:38 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADD9@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> -----Original Message----- From: Megan [mailto:mbg@world.std.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 10:24 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: RT11 V5.7 + RA92 = ? >for a nice writeup of how the rules work). Unfortunately the RT-11 >developers chose to ignore these rules in picking their "default" second >CSR for RT-11, but of course you could choose to follow these rules >by ignoring the SYSGEN-suggested secondary (and tertiary and whatever >comes after) DU CSR's. Okay, as one of the developers involved with RT-11 at the time the DU handler was first developed after we actually got some prototype MSCP controllers, I have to respond... At the time we got the controllers, the primary address had already been defined, but the secondary and subsequent addresses were assumed to be allocated out of the floating CSR and floating vector areas. It wasn't until some later time that it was decided that the secondary and subsequent addresses were to be fixed and had a certain algorithm for determining. By that time, SYSGEN had already been modified. It was decided that 1) for backwards compatibility and 2) since the addresses can be changed with SET CSRn and VECn, SYSGEN wouldn't be changed. We didn't ignore the defaults, there were none at the time to ignore. Finally, there is the problem of the SBC-11/21[+], where the 'standard' MSCP address is actually in a pre-allocated area, so it has to be located elsewhere (176150)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu Thu Nov 11 10:40:27 1999 From: reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu (Reuben Reyes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: <005401bf2be7$01d02080$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991111084027.00ccce30@orion.ae.utexas.edu> I have a big heavy dark orange box from 1975 with a 8008 in it. It was made by: Applied Computing Devices The model type is: RDC-101 This appears to be a phone company swith box and/or phone log tracking device that is programmable via RS232 port. Ruben At 08:49 PM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >I'm trying to compile a list of computers and other hardware that contained >the venerable Intel 8008 microprocessor. > >So far this is the list of 8008 based computers that have been made aware >of: > >1973 "Micral" by R2E (later merged with Bull) Made in France >1973 "Intellec-8" by Intel (development system) >1974 "Scelbi-8H" by Scelbi Consulting (kit and assembled) >1974 "Mark-8" by Jon Titus in Radio Electronics 7/74. Plans and PC boards >only. >1974 "008A Microcomputer Kit" RGS Electonics. Plans and all parts, except >cabinet and assorted hardware. >? PopTronics (Popular Electronics?) <-- Does anyone know anything about >this? What issue would it have been in if it was in that magazine. >? Homebrew systems. I'll compile a list of people who have made these if >they want to go public :-) Got a picture? > > >I'd like to also compile a list of other 8008 based machines - one where the >8008 was an embedded controller. If you have any info, such as >manufacturer, model number, date of introduction, etc. please let me know. > >? Terminal (Not Datapoint I understand, perhaps Beehive?) >? Front panel of a PDP-11? computer >? Instrument Test equipment >? Pinball Machine >! Datapoint 2200 (architecture was the model for the 8008, was built using >LSI, not an 8008) > >Can you contribute anything to this list? I'll post it on my web site and >hope to catch comments, add facts to it. Post to the list or to me if you'd >like. > >Thanks! > >John Lewczyk > >jlewczyk@his.com >www.his.com\jlewczyk > > > From jlewczyk at his.com Thu Nov 11 09:32:47 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor Message-ID: <000201bf2c5a$016e5530$013da8c0@Corellian> < References: <0.51b01c93.255c2035@aol.com> Message-ID: <19991111104933.A3121@mrbill.net> On Thu, Nov 11, 1999 at 08:35:49AM -0500, Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > My first mess of DEC equipment came from someone who called me. The next > thing I know I am wondering where to store it all while I sort it out. > The latest call was to see if I was interested in a mess of Intel boxes. > Hard to say no, when who knows what goodies might be lurking inside the > next machine you pull the cover off of. One thing early on is to > convince your significant other that there is nothing abnormal about > having multiple computers in multiple rooms of the house. > Mike I solved the problem; bought a house that had a 2-car garage that had been finished out with carpet and paneling (the only clue that its not a "normal" room like the rest of the house is the 2 garage doors along one wall - but hey, makes it easier to move pallet-loads in!). I keep my "junk" out there, and the fiancee stays happy. 8-) Bill (finally got rid of 2 RS/6000s last night, still looking for any DEC equipment I can get my hands on in the Austin or surrounding areas..) -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 11 11:05:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor Message-ID: <000a01bf2c66$e82e54a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . one version of the story, according to Adam Osborne, in his book (3-volume set) on microcomputers, was that Datapoint paid for the development of the 8008 for use in this jewel, then concluded that it wasn't fast enough, so now Intel had a paid-for 8-bit version of their 4004, which Osborned didn't say was what this was, but one might see a connection, nonetheless. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Lewczyk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor >< < < using LSI, not an 8008) > >< This sounds bogus. the 8008 model was the 4004 (stretched data paths). >< The 8008 model was clearly unlike most minis of the time with the internal >< (to the CPU) return address stack or limited depth. >< >< Allison > >My information concerning the Datapoint 2200 is from a posting in >CPSR-HISTORY (the link I have to the archive is now dead, anybody have a >good link to that archive?) by the Chief Tech Officer at Datapoint from 1969 >to 1984, Vic Poor, who was directly involved in the Intel 8008 project. I >also have a copy of the excellent book "The Microprocessor: A Biography" by >Michael S. Malone, which describes the development of the 4004 and 8008 >Intel. > >There is lots of misinformation on the web, where you possibly got the >impression that that 8008 was a 4004 with a streched data path. The 8008 >was a very different design, actually an implementation of a Datapoint >architecture designed by Vic and Harry Pyle of Datapoint (then CTC, or >Computer Terminal Corporation), which was a bit-serial computer design. >Both Intel and TI were contracted to design the chip, but Intel couldn't >deliver on time (also maybe too slow?) and TI's product was doa ("its noise >margin was so poor it could not be used commercially"), so Datapoint used >the design it had already implemented using MSI chips and put out their >"Datapoint 2200". Anybody got one of those? All the Intel micoprocessors >up through the Pentium III have their roots in this design. That is were >the real data path stretching has occurred! :-) > >Interestingly, the notion that "Intel only got into the microprocessor >business to sell its memory chips" was at least in part based on the 8008 >project. According the Vic Poor, they only took on the cpu chip project in >order to keep the memory business with Datapoint! Some in Intel thought >that the market for microprocessors was too small and that the real money >was in volume production of memory chips! > >John > >jlewczyk@his.com > From elvey at hal.com Thu Nov 11 11:11:39 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911111711.JAA28370@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > > Intel also had the MCS-8, more of an SBC and not connector compatable > > > with MCS-8. > > > > Allison, > > I'm going to guess the above was a typo, but if not how was it not > > compatible with itself? > > I meant the damm intellec-8. They also had the sim8. It was similar to the sim4. I have the motherboard for one but still lack the processor board. I saw one once at an exhibit at the Tech Museum but it was on loan from Intel. I wonder if they have the complete unit? Dwight From elvey at hal.com Thu Nov 11 11:25:58 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: <000a01bf2c66$e82e54a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199911111725.JAA28382@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Well . . . one version of the story, according to Adam Osborne, in his book > (3-volume set) on microcomputers, was that Datapoint paid for the > development of the 8008 for use in this jewel, then concluded that it wasn't > fast enough, so now Intel had a paid-for 8-bit version of their 4004, which > Osborned didn't say was what this was, but one might see a connection, > nonetheless. Hi From what I remember, the 8008 and the 4004 were two separate projects, developed some in parallel by two separate teams that didn't communicate much. The way the 8008 and the 4004 treat memory is quite different. The ALU is quite different. I would say that the 8008 was not just a simple expansion of the 4004. Because of the overlap in time, I don't even think that any of the concepts, good or bad, of the 4004 were carried over to the 8008. The 4040 was definitely an enhancement of the basic 4004. Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 11 12:08:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:28 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor Message-ID: <000801bf2c6f$ca562b20$0400c0a8@winbook> What you've said here is probably the case. THIS environment is the only one in which I've ever encountered the claim that the 4004 was in any way related to the 8008, eexcept for the label. Nevertheless, since I didn't know much about it then, I probably know even less now. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> Well . . . one version of the story, according to Adam Osborne, in his book >> (3-volume set) on microcomputers, was that Datapoint paid for the >> development of the 8008 for use in this jewel, then concluded that it wasn't >> fast enough, so now Intel had a paid-for 8-bit version of their 4004, which >> Osborned didn't say was what this was, but one might see a connection, >> nonetheless. > >Hi > From what I remember, the 8008 and the 4004 were two separate >projects, developed some in parallel by two separate teams >that didn't communicate much. The way the 8008 and the 4004 >treat memory is quite different. The ALU is quite different. >I would say that the 8008 was not just a simple expansion >of the 4004. Because of the overlap in time, I don't even >think that any of the concepts, good or bad, of the 4004 >were carried over to the 8008. The 4040 was definitely >an enhancement of the basic 4004. >Dwight > From elmo at hotpop.com Thu Nov 11 12:20:40 1999 From: elmo at hotpop.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: FS or Trade in Socal: Vector Graphic / COMPAL System Message-ID: <382B08F7.D01492C2@hotpop.com> I have a Vector Graphic "COMPAL" system (I guess they merged?) built into a Soroc-looking terminal. It has a Z80, Flashwriter, disk controller, PIO/SIO, and 64K Ram cards, but no floppy. Boots to ROM monitor. Keyboard and is in excellent condition, case cosmetics good. I acquired in my quest for a Soroc or LSI terminal, not knowing it was S-100. Now that I have my new (beige, ugh) ADM-3a, there is no more room at the counter for Compal. $100 OBO, or trade, will deliver in greater LA county area. Eliot From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Nov 11 08:03:56 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microproce In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991111084027.00ccce30@orion.ae.utexas.edu> References: <005401bf2be7$01d02080$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <199911111903.OAA02778@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:40:27 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Reuben Reyes > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 > microprocessor I had seen old grey HP with widescreen tube (b/w, not amber, like HDTV) with thick keyboard. The terminal opens up like a clam and use oddball cards on passive bus. That where I saw 8008. Wizard From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 11 13:24:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor In-Reply-To: <000801bf2c6f$ca562b20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > What you've said here is probably the case. THIS environment is the only > one in which I've ever encountered the claim that the 4004 was in any way > related to the 8008, eexcept for the label. Nevertheless, since I didn't > know much about it then, I probably know even less now. The 4004 was first in production and it would be many months before the 8008 was built. The two were related in that 4004 was launching technology and really based on the calculator styled ALUs the 8008 was remarkably similar in that is was still a single accumulator machine and used a data ponter register (HL) as a ram pointer. There are other similarities between them and they relied on CPU technology that was before them though no micro processor. Allison From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 11 12:46:14 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Just picked up a HUGE PDP-8I and PDP-15 and ..... Message-ID: <005b01bf2c75$08513a00$4c74e2d1@default> Well Chris... not too hard of a find. I bought everything from one member here! (I usually buy most of my systems from factories. Kevin Stumpf of (www.unusual.on.ca) sold me: PDP-8/S PDP-15 PDP-8I (and this baby is mint...... I plugged it in and every bulb worked and it's real happy!) About a 1000 flip chips All the manuals and docs, software.. even 5 trays of PDP 5,5/8 decus programs... Nova-2 Nova-3 A skid full of PDP 8, PDP 11, and Nova spares and parts and docs... None of them were running or had been plugged in. All of them came from McMaster University LAST YEAR! I have to hand it to Kevin. He did not miss a SINGLE piece of documentation or software. I don't think he ever really expected to sell all of it. I bought the 8/S first. (How we got in contact is really funny. I just finished scrapping an 8/E and emailed him about his Keronix mini.. for some reason I liked the way the 8/S looked in the picture on his website). I then picked up a Nova 2, then the Nova 3, then finally he agreed to sell me EVERYTHING he had left in Dec/Data General (PDP-15, PDP-8I).. (A good 14' UHAUL truck full.) The 8/S is fully restored. I am adding the DF32 and AX08 next week to it (finally, oscilloscope video games!). The 8I was well cared for by a DEC employee. It came from McMaster Hospital (section of the university). I was amazed when I got home how many goodies were inside. DF32, Sykes 8", 24K core, and many processor peripherals, flip chip extenders, racks of spare cards plugged into new backplanes - original flip chip single sided stuff). It was modified to run TSS/8, though it did run OS/8, disk monitor, and a bunch of other stuff. I powered up the 8I and it worked perfectly..BUT HAHAHAH... Common DEC guys!! a PC0 is NOT aligned the same way as a PC04.. This PC01 was set up wrong and did not work... ... It does now :-) I hope to have the 8I running OS/8 by next week. PDP-15, serial #49 - looks like it is plug and play... filled with toys... Kevin Stumpf did an amazing job of moving this equipment safely and ensuring it was not subjected to any bad weather. Me: I am still hurt from the move (Off work).. My Internet was down for 5 days as my new toys damaged some of my Internet stuff. I got most of the equipment and docs out of our living room. I took a bunch of pictures I will have online tonight.... I still have to go in and clean out a couple of plants filled with PDP-8s/IBM before the New Year.... ugh,.... I met William Donzelli at Kevin's the last time I was there. He bought the IBM System 3... he was moving the HDs in his mini van (yikes!). It looks like McMaster bought minis and peripherals from DEC as soon as they came out (judging by the serial numbers). -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy To: dylanb@sympatico.ca Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Just picked up a HUGE PDP-8I and PDP-15 and ..... >Hi John, > >John B wrote: > >[details of an incredible haul, deleted] > >> Bought a large box of Nova core memory/FPU >> >> I picked up around 10 core memory planes and tons of Nova 2/3 spares. > >On behalf of the other DG collectors on the list, I can only >offer congratulations tinted with the slightest trace of envy :-) >A Nova FPU is a rare beast indeed. > >An incredible find, and a job well done. > >Best regards, >Chris > >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris@mainecoon.com >http://www.mainecoon.com > From amirault at epix.net Thu Nov 11 13:21:37 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: New additions References: <0.d6348c2c.255a3224@aol.com> Message-ID: <382B1741.61BB5F30@epix.net> Dave, Please email me off group to "talk" about IBM PCJr's options and where to get them. I tryed your email addy and it bounced on me. TIA, John Amirault SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > After a dry spell, I picked up some items: > > >From an old IBMer, i got two PS/1s; a 2011C34 and 2121A82 in perfect shape > and working just like brand new. Also got a PCjr from the same guy and lots > of software and books for it too. The jr's mem expansion option was modified > so the jr has 640k. He also said at one time there was a hard drive option > for the jr, but all that was made was a prototype. Sure wonder what happened > to it now... > also picked up a mac classic 2/40 in like new condition now upgraded to 4/40. > found a PS/2 60 model type 4867 which I'm told was made for the banking > industry. It came with an AOX 386 upgrade card. Unfortunately it wont > reconfigure due to a presumed defective floppy drive. > finally, discovered a PS/2 model 25 xt version with dual floppies. runs even > better with a hardcard 20 i installed in it. > > keep collecting, everyone! > > > D~ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Nov 11 14:41:11 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA Message-ID: <199911112041.PAA07426@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I've got a line on a closing construction company warehouse that has a bunch of older computers (maybe 30?) in various states of disrepair, of which the oldest is a "Digital DEC PDP11xx something". I've asked for more info, and will post it here as it comes in. In the meantime, I want to get interested parties geared up and ready to go, because as usual, we don't have much time. Cheers, Bill. PS. For those that didn't notice the subject line, the machines are in Woodbridge, VA, USA. From Tony.Eros at machm.org Thu Nov 11 15:21:08 1999 From: Tony.Eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA References: <199911112041.PAA07426@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <001a01bf2c8a$abe7fe00$18e35310@newcas1.de.home.com> You've got my attention! Keep us posted... -- Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Yakowenko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:41 PM Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA > I've got a line on a closing construction company warehouse that has > a bunch of older computers (maybe 30?) in various states of disrepair, > of which the oldest is a "Digital DEC PDP11xx something". I've asked > for more info, and will post it here as it comes in. In the meantime, > I want to get interested parties geared up and ready to go, because as > usual, we don't have much time. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > PS. For those that didn't notice the subject line, the machines are > in Woodbridge, VA, USA. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 11 13:43:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911110434.XAA22826@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 10, 99 11:34:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 903 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/cc34a9ca/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 11 15:08:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <382AC7F9.D59316D1@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 11, 99 08:43:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1091 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/b317a8a9/attachment.ksh From SzewczykM at hcgi.com Thu Nov 11 16:07:23 1999 From: SzewczykM at hcgi.com (Mike Szewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of Apple IIE modems Message-ID: <6F4FA42A5405D211B15D006094A3CD9F0257AF9F@mail.hcgi.com> I'm looking to get a Micromodem IIE and an Applecat modem. I'd prefer a trade, but I might be willing to shell out some cash for the stuff. I have some C64 equipment, VIC-20, TI99 equipment, Apple II stuff also. From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Nov 11 16:07:35 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram References: Message-ID: <382B3E27.99849E86@olf.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > called STM220. Thanks > > > > > > You know, I wonder if it would be less work to take a T2 and hang some > > > kind of serial chip off it. Should be able to make said RS232 TRAM in 4 > > > or 5 chips. > > > > If I knew how to do it, I can probably put it together. Here are pictures of > > Sundance's STM220 RS232 tram > > Pick your favourite serial chip. Link it to the T2 bus, using a PAL for > address decoding and/or to fiddle the R/W .vs. Wr/ and Rd/ signals. > That's about it. > > Seriously, it's easy to design with transputers. The bus is designed to > be easy to link things up to. I really think this is a morning's work at > most... > Unfortunately, I have very very little electrical background (almost nothing). I can but circuits together, but that is just about it :-( > > Incidentally, I've just looked across the room and noticed that INMOS did > make a transputer board with 2 RS232 ports on it. It's the B001 -- a T4 + > RAM + EPROMs + a couple of RS232 ports (using an SCN2681 chip). It's not a > TRAM, though, it's a 6U extended eurocard. > Hmmm, got to take a look at it. I might have some old product brochures laying around somewhere... > > I am sure I could design a RS232 TRAM, but I am not going to suggest a > circuit that I've not personally built and tested. And I don't think I'm > going to be building one soon... Too bad, it would make a perfect GNU-style hardware project. Any takers??? BTW, I am planning on connecting the Lego Mindstorm kit to the transputer so that i can do some cheap robotics off the transputer farm I have. That is why I need an RS232 tram for.... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/30ebc7f2/attachment.html From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Nov 11 16:33:43 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of Apple IIE modems In-Reply-To: <6F4FA42A5405D211B15D006094A3CD9F0257AF9F@mail.hcgi.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991111163343.009f3d30@207.207.0.212> I have in my hand a Novation Modem for the aple II (IIRC, they made the 'Cat' series of modems)... I don't know if it works but, you can have it for FREE if you pay shipping. >I'm looking to get a Micromodem IIE and an Applecat modem. I'd prefer a >trade, but I might be willing to shell out some cash for the stuff. I have >some C64 equipment, VIC-20, TI99 equipment, Apple II stuff also. A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From philclayton at mindspring.com Thu Nov 11 16:41:06 1999 From: philclayton at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton / Computer Automation) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Ah, the computer age..... Message-ID: <005b01bf2c95$d86dffa0$c5368ad1@server> >>Remember When... > > > > A computer was something on t.v. > > from a science fiction show of note > > A window was something you hated to clean > > and ram was the cousin of a goat > > > > Meg was the name of my girlfriend > > and gig was a job for the nights > > now they all mean different things > > and that really mega bytes > > > > An application was for employment > > A program was a t.v. show > > A cursor used profanity > > A keyboard was a piano > > > > Memory was something that you lost with age > > A CD was a bank account > > And if you had a 3" floppy > > you hoped nobody found out > > > > Compress was something you did to the garbage > > Not something you did to a file > > And if you unzipped anything in public > > you'd be in jail for awhile > > Log on was adding wood to the fire > > Hard drive was a long trip on the road > > A mouse pad was where a mouse lived > > And a backup happened in your commode > > > > Cut you did with a pocket knife > > Paste you did with glue > > A web site was a spider's home > > and a virus was the flu > > > > I guess I'll stick to my pad and paper > > And the memory in my head > > I hear nobody's been killed in a computer crash > > But when it happens they wish they were dead >> From jallain at databaseamerica.com Thu Nov 11 16:43:28 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: CDC 9766 SMD drives In-Reply-To: <000001bf2618$9f1fdf80$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <000201bf2c96$2c692cb0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I've been told these babies are toast in 1 hour. Well, they lasted Eight days more than I feared. Thanks to all who replied. John A. and thanks to the Guys at WRPI who told me about that 1401 back in 1980... -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:30 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Freebie alert: CDC 9766 SMD drive Dumpster-Dive alert from a Newbie. Two Control Data Corp 9766 Storage Module Drive units to go ** FREE ** to a good home in the tri state (New York, New Jersey, Conecticut this time) area. These are the Classic drives from the late 70's that everybody at the time is probably familliar with ( Open the top like a clotheswasher, lock in a removable 300MB platter array, push the start button & go ) I don't remember the DEC designator for this but I'm positive that Many companies re-marketed this as their own component to their MiniComputer offerings, they were everywhere, I used one in in 1982, but I don't need three now. These two were taken from a system deactivated just recently. One of the diskpacks was marked something like "Backup Nov-1997" so it's a pretty good guess that everything was working. They are sitting safe in an office right now, but Pls. act fast if you're interested. FYI JEA (John Allain) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 11 17:50:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <382B3E27.99849E86@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 11, 99 05:07:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991111/0c1c4a95/attachment.ksh From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Nov 11 18:01:30 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA References: <199911112041.PAA07426@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <382B58DA.6FF2E079@idirect.com> >Bill Yakowenko wrote: > I've got a line on a closing construction company warehouse that has > a bunch of older computers (maybe 30?) in various states of disrepair, > of which the oldest is a "Digital DEC PDP11xx something". I've asked > for more info, and will post it here as it comes in. In the meantime, > I want to get interested parties geared up and ready to go, because as > usual, we don't have much time. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > PS. For those that didn't notice the subject line, the machines are > in Woodbridge, VA, USA. Jerome Fine replies: You have my attention as well. Thank you!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From max82 at surfree.com Thu Nov 11 18:39:30 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: OT: IBM Scanner model 9066 Message-ID: Hi, I bought an IBM 9066 scanner at the MIT flea, and can't find any mention of it on the IBM website. As you might imagine, I need drivers. The scanner is by and large labelled in Japanese. Web searches turn up nothing but other people asking the same question in bulletin boards (with no answer). Does anyone here have drivers? Thanks From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 11 19:43:48 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! In-Reply-To: <0.51b01c93.255c2035@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991111203152.00ab91e0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:35 AM 11/11/99 -0500, Mzthompson@aol.com said something like: >At 03:15 AM 11/10/99 +0000, Mr. Diablo wrote: >> After a short while, rent a warehouse because if you start seriously asking >> for stuff it _will_ start arriving and you will be inundated! > >Never were truer words spoken by a wiser man ;-) > >My first mess of DEC equipment came from someone who called me. The next >thing I know I am wondering where to store it all while I sort it out. >The latest call was to see if I was interested in a mess of Intel boxes. >Hard to say no, when who knows what goodies might be lurking inside the >next machine you pull the cover off of. One thing early on is to >convince your significant other that there is nothing abnormal about >having multiple computers in multiple rooms of the house. Indeed you're right Mike! I've got one bay of our garage just stuffed with DEC iron (11/750, 11/34A, RK07s, etc, etc) that I need to clear out. The rest of the house has bunches of old radios and computers. Now the thing is, Beverly likes the old radios very much, questions me on what I'm doing with all those computers in the house and simply gives me dirty looks and ornery comments as to when I'm going to get rid of the garage computers. However, she is quite justified in doing that as I stated myself that I need to clear the garage out (so I can put the contents of the storage cubicle (radio stuff) that I'm paying rent on into the garage). Someday soon, I'll post the garage computers and some other stuff to the list to get rid of. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 11 18:40:49 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: VP12 - 8I Plotter Interface. Message-ID: <01b501bf2ca6$9123d0a0$4c74e2d1@default> I am just starting to go through the backplanes on the 8I and found I have a plotter interface with the M704 module. What plotter can I hook this up to? I have a lot of plotter paper tape software.... but what can I use it on? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 11 19:47:52 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA In-Reply-To: <382B58DA.6FF2E079@idirect.com> from Jerome Fine at "Nov 11, 1999 7: 1:30 pm" Message-ID: <199911120148.UAA02905@pechter.dyndns.org> > Jerome Fine replies: > > You have my attention as well. > > Thank you!!! > How many other East Coast PDP11 types are interested in this stuff... I'm in. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Nov 11 20:34:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA Message-ID: <199911120234.VAA26089@world.std.com> >How many other East Coast PDP11 types are interested in this stuff... >I'm in. I'm interested as well... I wish it were closer so I could help in the move... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | --------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Nov 11 20:44:49 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: References: <199911110008.QAA24146@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >> Another factor, the sectors for DOS formatted disk are >> 512 bytes long. Any loop that only does 256 won't make it. >> It would need to be formatted with more wasteful 256 byte >> sectors. This has been a good line of thought ;) > >Is this a problem? Firstly, who says you'd use an MS-DOS format -- the >CoCo uses 256 byte sectors for virtually everything, and I'd suggest >keeping to that on the HD disks, just having more of them. As to being >more wasteful, well, MS-DOS 360K (and 720K) disks fit 9 512byte sectors >on a track, the CoCo fits 18 256byte sectors. Looks the same to me. > >And the 6809 index registers (X, Y, etc) are 16 bit registers. The loop I >posted (and the ones others have posted) will transfer 512 bytes if you >want them to. Whether there's a speed penalty when you cross a 256 byte >boundary I don't know -- I don't remember anything like that in the 6809 >instruction set, but it's been many years. The only time you'd see any type of a speed drop from crossing a 256-byte boundary w/the 6809 is if you were using Direct Page addressing and had set the DP register... once you got ready to cross a boundary, you'd have to re-load the DP reg. to continue using the DP addressing. X & Y (& U & S) are all 16-bit index regs (yes, U & S are stack pointers, but they can also be used as index regs) so the DP reg doesn't come into play here. 512 byte MS-DOS sectors shouldn't be too hard to implement in software... if, of course, you had the nitty-gritties to programming the FDC (which the disk Basic unravelled would provide) and MS-DOS's track format layout... (anybody got that handy?) Thanks, and this *has* been fun reading... ;-) I've learned a lot! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 11 21:47:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 11, 99 09:44:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/23471d54/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 12 02:17:04 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA References: <199911120148.UAA02905@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <99111203172101.03310@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> You have my attention as well. >> >> Thank you!!! >> > >How many other East Coast PDP11 types are interested in this stuff... >I'm in. Count me in...I'm in the DC area... -Dave McGuire From truthanl at oclc.org Fri Nov 12 05:09:31 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Looking for old equipment -- please help! Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADDC@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Hello list. I have a mixed bag of classic gear. I have a Plessy 6600/6700 ( LSI 11/24) Circa Jan 84. 80 Meg Fujitsu HD, Cipher F800 ? Tape. I have a D116 mini computer with which is what I think is a Nova 3 Clone- similar Front Panel - paper tape. and a slew of Serial ports. I have a DG3 (Kennedy? tape transport) TI 990/10 CPU w/ Front Panel , CPU Expansion Chassis Unit, Two 10 Meg removable hard drives and scores of serial ports - This was part of a Paradyne modem analysis system Each modem had a primary data channel and an analysis port where the TI 990 tracked modem maladies like lost carrier, receive level in db etc. - Parameters One TI 990 watched 256 2400 Baud modems, Second Hd Came from a second system I could not get. In Its heyday we had over 300 dedicated lines. Other systems I have: MicroVax with VMS 4.2? Another Cipher F880 tape drive. TRS-80 Coco with 32 MB ram ET3400 Microprocessor trainer I havent been able to figure out which system I should start on, Although I have always interested in fnding Linux for the MicroVax. I think the MicroVax also has an 80 Meg HD, 4 Serial ports, I MB RAM I have never been able to get the MicroVax floppy drive (800KB?) to respond. I just discovered this list last week, And now I have HOPE that I can get user help in assessing what I have, imagine the possibilities!!! Sincerely, Full Garage too.. Larry Truthan > - > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Nov 12 05:59:50 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:50:39 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell wrote: > > > Pick your favourite serial chip. Link it to the T2 bus, using a PAL for > > > address decoding and/or to fiddle the R/W .vs. Wr/ and Rd/ signals. > > > That's about it. This is precisely what we had to do at my previous company. We needed four serial ports on a TRAM, but none of the commercially-available ones were any good. Some were really awful "bit-banging via an 8-bit latch" designs, others had a Z80 CPU and a link adaptor, others would do just 3-wire RS232 with no modem control. > You've almost convinced me to have a go... It won't be T2 based, as I > don't have any spare (or socketed) T2s... I may have the odd T4 in the > junk box, though. Any preference on the serial chip I use, or should I > just use a 8250 or something? We used a quad UART from the RS Components catalogue. You can get 8-way UARTS! I think Philips/Signetics do them. > Dunno when I'll have time to do this (and if somebody beats me to it, > fine :-)), but it just might be something for me to try... I don't have the circuits any more, but it was really straightforward. Just a T222, the UART, some MAX232s, some SRAM, and glue logic (about four 74xx MSI chips). All went on a size two TRAM fairly easily. > -tony -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Nov 12 06:06:02 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Junk report Message-ID: Just had a delivery of more prime quality junk! I have an HP 7550 pen plotter, complete with HP-GL manual and quick reference. No operator's manual as yet. This thing is huge, with a 68000 CPU, and takes A3 paper manually fed as well as auto-feeding A4. However, here's the question: How do I get the plotter to open the paper drawer? Is it a front-panel operation, or do I just pull? I've pulled quite hard, so maybe it's just stuck :-( Oh, and I also got a 4-track Philips tape deck, wherein the belts have not just stretched, but liquified -- yuck! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Fri Nov 12 06:44:38 1999 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (jfedorko@virtualadmin.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm game, and convieniently located. -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Yakowenko Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:41 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA I've got a line on a closing construction company warehouse that has a bunch of older computers (maybe 30?) in various states of disrepair, of which the oldest is a "Digital DEC PDP11xx something". I've asked for more info, and will post it here as it comes in. In the meantime, I want to get interested parties geared up and ready to go, because as usual, we don't have much time. Cheers, Bill. PS. For those that didn't notice the subject line, the machines are in Woodbridge, VA, USA. From jott at ee.nd.edu Fri Nov 12 07:28:38 1999 From: jott at ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: HP 7550 plotter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello - Mine always opens hard. There no electronics to open the drawer. I haven't figured out the trick to get it to open every time. john *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, John Honniball wrote: > > Just had a delivery of more prime quality junk! > > I have an HP 7550 pen plotter, complete with HP-GL manual > and quick reference. No operator's manual as yet. This > thing is huge, with a 68000 CPU, and takes A3 paper > manually fed as well as auto-feeding A4. However, here's > the question: > > How do I get the plotter to open the paper drawer? > > Is it a front-panel operation, or do I just pull? I've > pulled quite hard, so maybe it's just stuck :-( > > Oh, and I also got a 4-track Philips tape deck, wherein the > belts have not just stretched, but liquified -- yuck! > > -- > John Honniball > Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk > University of the West of England > > From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Nov 12 08:16:55 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA In-Reply-To: <199911112041.PAA07426@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991112091501.00abc100@206.231.8.2> Count me in for some small items that I may need for the systems I am keeping. Will have to see the list of available stuff of course :) Regards, Chris -- -- Upon the date 03:41 PM 11/11/99 -0500, Bill Yakowenko said something like: >I've got a line on a closing construction company warehouse that has >a bunch of older computers (maybe 30?) in various states of disrepair, >of which the oldest is a "Digital DEC PDP11xx something". I've asked >for more info, and will post it here as it comes in. In the meantime, >I want to get interested parties geared up and ready to go, because as >usual, we don't have much time. > > Cheers, > Bill. > >PS. For those that didn't notice the subject line, the machines are >in Woodbridge, VA, USA. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Nov 12 08:39:25 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram References: Message-ID: <382C269C.2E881788@olf.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Pick your favourite serial chip. Link it to the T2 bus, using a PAL for > > > address decoding and/or to fiddle the R/W .vs. Wr/ and Rd/ signals. > > > That's about it. > > > > > > Seriously, it's easy to design with transputers. The bus is designed to > > > be easy to link things up to. I really think this is a morning's work at > > > most... > > > > > > > Unfortunately, I have very very little electrical background (almost nothing). > > I can but circuits together, but that is just about it :-( > > You've almost convinced me to have a go... It won't be T2 based, as I > don't have any spare (or socketed) T2s... I may have the odd T4 in the > junk box, though. Any preference on the serial chip I use, or should I > just use a 8250 or something? > I really dont have any preference to a serial chip other than that it should be reliable and easy to source. I have no spare T2s either. All the spares I have are the T400 (2-link) transputers. > > Dunno when I'll have time to do this (and if somebody beats me to it, > fine :-)), but it just might be something for me to try... Thanks a lot. It really would be a nice project to do. We currently have no free transputer schematics (especially trams). Ooops, I should take that back, there is the DTC (DSP + Transputer card) card that comes with schematics and is free. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/132b0786/attachment.html From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 12 07:50:30 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Pictures of the PDP-8I, PDP-15 Message-ID: <008d01bf2d14$e1f3a460$2373e2d1@default> First, every morning I have checked networksolutions for pdp8.com and this morning it was DEREGISTERED! I just got it!!! So, I am moving my pages and other info to pdp8.com soon.. I did not take pictures of the extra spares and docs I picked up... *picture* Kevin and I loading Nova core /fp bds, PDP 8 bds, PDP 11 boards as high as we could on a skid.. .. when it got too high, we loaded the rest on some carts. Here is a link to new stuff I just picked up: http://www.bordynuik.com/8su.htm the older 8/s is on: http://www.bordynuik.com/8s.htm Enjoy... From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 12 11:42:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Junk report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991112114205.232f6d48@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:06 PM 11/12/99 +0000, you wrote: > >Just had a delivery of more prime quality junk! > >I have an HP 7550 pen plotter, complete with HP-GL manual >and quick reference. No operator's manual as yet. This >thing is huge, with a 68000 CPU, and takes A3 paper >manually fed as well as auto-feeding A4. However, here's >the question: > > How do I get the plotter to open the paper drawer? > >Is it a front-panel operation, or do I just pull? I've >pulled quite hard, so maybe it's just stuck :-( It should just pull out. Sometimes they get pushed up and jam in the housing. The 7550 is a great plotter BTW. Joe From apple at cmc.net Fri Nov 12 10:59:32 1999 From: apple at cmc.net (Jack Noble) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Message-ID: <01e301bf2d2f$4b63ae80$571c66ce@apple> You've got the wrong guy. I offered some Ohio Scientific systems. -----Original Message----- From: theo stevens To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 8:56 AM Hi There, If you still have that old HP 9000/300 computer, let me know. I know it?s kind of late asking after 6 months. Maybe you still have it. Thanks Theo Stevens -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/9bb960b8/attachment.html From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Nov 12 11:22:05 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram References: Message-ID: <382C4CBD.B4875537@olf.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Pick your favourite serial chip. Link it to the T2 bus, using a PAL for > > > address decoding and/or to fiddle the R/W .vs. Wr/ and Rd/ signals. > > > That's about it. > > > > > > Seriously, it's easy to design with transputers. The bus is designed to > > > be easy to link things up to. I really think this is a morning's work at > > > most... > > > > > > > Unfortunately, I have very very little electrical background (almost nothing). > > I can but circuits together, but that is just about it :-( > > You've almost convinced me to have a go... It won't be T2 based, as I > don't have any spare (or socketed) T2s... I may have the odd T4 in the > junk box, though. Any preference on the serial chip I use, or should I > just use a 8250 or something? > I was just looking over Sundance's Serial TRAM and it doesnt even use a transputer. It just uses C011s to handle the links. Wouldnt that be easier??? There would be no need to get any spare transputers (and they are hard to source these days). The SMT220 seems to be a very easy design. As John said, it would be really neat if it can handle modems, etc like a true PC-based serial port... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/90737fbc/attachment.html From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Nov 12 11:43:05 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <382C4CBD.B4875537@olf.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:22:05 -0500 Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > I was just looking over Sundance's Serial TRAM and it doesnt even use a > transputer. It just uses C011s to handle the links. That was one of the designes that we looked at... > Wouldnt that be easier??? It depends... Wasn't that the one with the Z80 on it? And some firmware in ROM? > There would be no need to get any spare transputers (and > they are hard to source these days). The SMT220 seems to > be a very easy design. It's also a very inflexible one in that, without a transputer, you can't download code to it and implement any intelligence in the serial TRAM. The big advantage of a transputer directly connected to a UART is that you can load it with code to do buffering, timeouts, time-stamping, protocol conversion -- anything you want in fact! > As John said, it would be really neat if it can handle > modems, etc like a true PC-based serial port... Modem control lines were essential in our application (not for a modem, but for RS-485 support). But I wouldn't call the PC's serial port "true", either... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 12 12:16:57 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <199911121816.KAA02946@civic.hal.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > 512 byte MS-DOS sectors shouldn't be too hard to implement in software... > if, of course, you had the nitty-gritties to programming the FDC (which the > disk Basic unravelled would provide) and MS-DOS's track format layout... > (anybody got that handy?) Hi I have code and stuff I did for 360K DOS disk. It would need a little modifications for the larger FAT used on the 1.44M's but the basics are there. I didn't do subdirectories but they could be added with a minimum of effort. The code is all done in Forth and even then, a strange Forth called CMForth that was for the NC4000 chip. Still the flow is what one needs. It is on my web page at: http://web.hal.com/users/elvey/ scroll down and select: Forth and DSP related files disk.txt DOS disk read write code disk.art Story goes with above floppy.txt Floppy interface ( 765 type, not 1793 ) floppy.art Story goes with above I expect to be doing modifications to the code to read/write to DOS disk in the near future because I want to read/write 1.44M disk in DOS file structures. I am already reading and writing sectors on this disk, just not files yet. Let me know if you find it useful or if you have questions. Dwight From CordaAJ at NSWC.NAVY.MIL Fri Nov 12 12:34:42 1999 From: CordaAJ at NSWC.NAVY.MIL (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E04@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Hi! I'd be interested... I'm looking for PDP-10, 11 and 8 stuff (and much more... too much to list :-), also, I'm relatively nearby (Fredericksburg, VA) -acorda@geocities.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Yakowenko [mailto:yakowenk@cs.unc.edu] > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:41 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA > > > I've got a line on a closing construction company warehouse that has > a bunch of older computers (maybe 30?) in various states of disrepair, > of which the oldest is a "Digital DEC PDP11xx something". I've asked > for more info, and will post it here as it comes in. In the meantime, > I want to get interested parties geared up and ready to go, because as > usual, we don't have much time. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > PS. For those that didn't notice the subject line, the machines are > in Woodbridge, VA, USA. > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 12 13:40:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <199911121816.KAA02946@civic.hal.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <199911121841.TAA15386@mail2.siemens.de> Well, do you still belive Overclocking etc. is still modern stuff talk ? See what you can do with your good old system: http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html (Start the browser, it's worth, and I can't tell anything :) Gruss H. Back from Helsinki - no Finish computers :( But just today I found two partly plundered MX 300 and a real old MX 500 running for a safe heaven in my storage :) -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 12 12:53:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <199911121841.TAA15386@mail2.siemens.de> References: <199911121816.KAA02946@civic.hal.com> <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: >Well, do you still belive Overclocking etc. is still >modern stuff talk ? See what you can do with your >good old system: >http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html > >(Start the browser, it's worth, and I can't tell anything :) Great, anyone know where I can get a large meat locker? :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Nov 12 13:21:22 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: apple II DOS diskettes - can they be made on a PC? Message-ID: <007f01bf2d43$1b090d20$d402a8c0@tse.com> I just got an apple ][+ and two disk ][ units. I have no diskettes for it though. Specifically, I'd like to get a copy of the disks that come with a disk ][ unit. This would be the DOS disks (16 sector version I seem to recall???) and any example disks and/or utilities that normally came with it. So - two questions - 1) Can the disks be made on a PC clone system 5.25 drive with something like rawrite or teledisk? and 2) Can someone point me to where these images can be obtained on the net or would a kind sole email me the images? I don't remember much about the apple ][+, it's been almost 20 years since I played with one so I hope the above questions are somewhat clear :) Thanks in advance for any tips and/or advice! (please reply to west@tseinc.com) Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 12 13:54:35 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911121816.KAA02946@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > I expect to be doing modifications to the code to read/write > to DOS disk in the near future because I want to read/write > 1.44M disk in DOS file structures. I am already reading and writing > sectors on this disk, just not files yet. Are you reading and writing sectors of 1.4M disks with a Coco? If so, that concludes the debate over whether THAT hack is possible. BTW, Dr. Marty once did a series of articles in Rainbow containing the code for reading PC 360K disks with a Coco. I never got around to teaching him the details of sub-directories, so I doubt that he supported them. BTW2, the very first ever RS disk interface for the Coco had all chips socketed, as well as a few other differences that make it the best one to work from for a 500Kbps mod. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 12 14:02:11 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: Q:apple II diskettes - on a PC? A:NO In-Reply-To: <007f01bf2d43$1b090d20$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Jay West wrote: > So - two questions - 1) Can the disks be made on a PC clone system 5.25 > drive with something like rawrite or teledisk? NO. To read or write the Apple ][ diskettes requires different hardware. That hardware can be in the form factor of a replacement disk controller, or as a separate board that interrupts the cable between the disk controller and the drive. Such boards have been available, but none (except possibly CatWeasel (without software)) is currently available. One such board was the Apple Turnover, which was sold by Vertex systems. As part of the settlement of my lawsuit against them, I have a large box of those boards that are almost certainly all defective. Is there anyone here with some basic electronics competence who would like to make a go of testing them and getting some of them working? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Nov 12 14:57:32 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: going soon... Message-ID: <199911122057.PAA12654@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, it turns out that "soon" isn't quite as soon as the usual definition. This time we may have several weeks, maybe even months(!), to respond. About a dozen people have expressed an interest (and all are getting this message BCC'd directly). Until I hear otherwise, I'm assuming this guy wants a single contact point, and not a barrage of individual requests. But I will ask him about that; if it is okay by him, then I'll just pass on his contact info and get the #@(& out of the way. Still no more info on what machines are there, and no precise time limit. Will keep you posted. Cheers, Bill. From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 12 15:08:16 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:29 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911122108.NAA03056@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > I expect to be doing modifications to the code to read/write > > to DOS disk in the near future because I want to read/write > > 1.44M disk in DOS file structures. I am already reading and writing > > sectors on this disk, just not files yet. > > Are you reading and writing sectors of 1.4M disks with a Coco? > If so, that concludes the debate over whether THAT hack is possible. Hi Sorry about that, it isn't on a Coco. I'm doing it with a 80C186EB processor and a iSBX board that had a 2793 floppy controller chip. It was a surplus board I picked up at a local surplus place called HSC. > > > BTW, Dr. Marty once did a series of articles in Rainbow containing the > code for reading PC 360K disks with a Coco. I never got around to > teaching him the details of sub-directories, so I doubt that he supported > them. I looked at adding subdirectories to my code but, at the time, I couldn't justify it. It really didn't seem all that hard although it did look like a hack job by the fellow that wrote DOS. The code was written with the only purpose of transfering ASCII text from my BLOCK files to a DOS disk. It had no frills. I don't recall all the ins and outs of it but it looked straight forward enough. I think I wrote the DOS code in '91 so I'm not to up to date on exactly how it worked. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Nov 12 15:13:28 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: References: <199911121816.KAA02946@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991112161328.00a32100@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >BTW2, the very first ever RS disk interface for the Coco had all chips >socketed, as well as a few other differences that make it the best one to >work from for a 500Kbps mod. Yes... that's what started this thread... I just got one of those controllers thru a seller on Ebay, and wondered where the 500Kbps hack information might be found. Again, I have nothing against Vaxen (and would love one if I could get one... ;-) but this thread has been *very* fun and educational for me! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 12 15:42:40 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Tektronix 560 and AX08 Message-ID: <006e01bf2d56$d8066b80$2373e2d1@default> I am locating a Tektronix 560 for my 8/s. Does anyone here know what changes were made to the Tektronix 560 Oscilloscope to connect it to the 34B or AX08? I have a feeling it was the "brightness" control but I am not sure. The AX08 nor the 34B documents mention any changes to the scope. john -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/405bb42a/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 13:30:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Nov 12, 99 11:59:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1216 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/0eb3a6b7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 13:35:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <382C269C.2E881788@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 12, 99 09:39:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 970 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/9a25945f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 13:37:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <382C4CBD.B4875537@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 12, 99 12:22:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 541 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/bf712dcc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 13:39:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: 1.44M floppy on Color Computer (was Re: Ebay reaches new low) In-Reply-To: <199911121816.KAA02946@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Nov 12, 99 10:16:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 518 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/2fe2ab58/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 12 17:29:37 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <199911122329.XAA29654@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Check outghis article, it appears that somone recently patented the idea of using a pivot date, such as 30, and having the computer consider numbers below that pivot point as being in the year 20??, ie as being from 2000 - 2029. and he's trying to force companies that used that programming technique to fix their Y2K problems, to pay him millions. 70% of companies supposedly use that concept. http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?template=tech_a&slug=y2k12 -Lawrence LeMay From wlb at jps.net Fri Nov 12 17:30:31 1999 From: wlb at jps.net (william l brandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Series 42 stuff available Message-ID: <000701bf2d66$37fffa60$97f73fd1@pavilion> Stan Sieler gave me this email address - We have a "new" 917 up & running and have some ADCCs, memory, processor boards (series 42) if anyone wants them...Also a couple of ET terminals I am in Sacramento, CA Bill Brandt From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Nov 12 17:49:18 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991112184918.00956a10@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >Is one serial port enough? If so, might as well use a 8250-like thing and >a MAX232 (or LT1130-series) buffer. Heck, at Jameco you can get the 16550's for $6.95USD qty 1... knock off a buck for qty 10+, and you get the 16-byte FIFO's for better thruput... Thru Digi-Key or Mouser, I think you can get the 16650's (32-byte buffer, isn't that the difference??) but I have no clue for the price. I think it's blackhawk technology is using the 16550's for a new RS232 card for the CoCo that can achieve 115200 reliably... and it has a daughtercard for a second serial port to boot. IIRC, they were $69.95 each. See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From at258 at osfn.org Fri Nov 12 18:40:34 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Paging R.I. Computer Museum representative In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The disks arrived last week. Can't remember if I acknowledged it or not, some of my magnetic media is flakey. Thanks a lot. We'll be looking at digging out a DeathStar this week and working on it. From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 12 18:43:56 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions References: <199911122329.XAA29654@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <382CB44C.3C8786C6@idirect.com> >Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Check outghis article, it appears that somone recently patented the > idea of using a pivot date, such as 30, and having the computer > consider numbers below that pivot point as being in the year 20??, ie > as being from 2000 - 2029. and he's trying to force companies that > used that programming technique to fix their Y2K problems, to pay him > millions. 70% of companies supposedly use that concept. > > http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?template=tech_a&slug=y2k12 > > -Lawrence LeMay Jerome Fine replies: I guess some people will try anything. I did contract job back in 1998 for a company who wanted non-Y2K compliant software to use the DATE/TIME chips on a computer board for a PDP-11 to READ the DATE information and interpret the 2 digit year correctly. Fortunately, the firmware for the DATE/TIME chips rolled over from "99" (for the year - kept as a bcd quantity in two four bit hardware registers) to "00". Since RT-11 (I know - I can't get away from it) has 1973 as the earliest legal date, I wrote the software to assume that any year value less than "70" was after 1999. In addition, back in 1993 or maybe as late as 1994, I patched the code for the actual RT-11 OS (V5.6 of RT-11) to do the same thing. This was not the standard that was finally adopted for V5.7 of RT-11 wherein any date after 1999 was required to specify a four digit year, but it is very obvious that many other people were already using the concept of a pivot date long before 1998. I also modified some software for a company that makes cars (you know those big hunks of metal with four wheels and a nut in the front seat) - I think that was delivered in 1997 and those patches also used a pivot date concept. So I doubt that it will take much to prove that the granting the patent was "inappropriate". Anyone else have any stories about using a pivot date some time ago! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991112/67b2269b/attachment.html From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Nov 12 19:04:37 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions In-Reply-To: <382CB44C.3C8786C6@idirect.com> References: <199911122329.XAA29654@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991112200437.009e7100@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Jerome Fine may have mentioned these words: >>>> Anyone else have any stories about using a pivot date some time ago! Jerome Fine <<<< To bring this on-topic, I used that technique back in the mid-late 80's in all of my software that I wrote (for myself mind you...) in Basic09, under OS-9 on my CoCo2 & 3. I made & packed a routine to do that automatically, then just linked in the code with the routine with any program that I wrote that needed that functionality. I'm not bragging... I'm sure there are a *lot* of folks here that figured that out a lot earlier than I did. It's really not brain surgery, after all. That guy needs to be slapped... Hard... in the face... with a frozen mackerel!!! ;-) (that's a quote from a guy on my Model 100 list... so that's even on-topic! ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 19:23:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991112184918.00956a10@127.0.0.1> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 12, 99 06:49:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/5d80e0ef/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 12 19:51:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991112200437.009e7100@127.0.0.1> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 12, 1999 08:04:37 PM Message-ID: <199911130151.RAA11205@shell1.aracnet.com> > Rumor has it that Jerome Fine may have mentioned these words: > >>>> > Anyone else have any stories about using a pivot date some time ago! > > Jerome Fine > <<<< OS/8 comes to mind, didn't OS/8 users have to implement this in the late 70's? > That guy needs to be slapped... Hard... in the face... with a frozen > mackerel!!! ;-) The real problem is software patents and the fact that the US Patent Office is out of touch with reality. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 19:49:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions In-Reply-To: <382CB44C.3C8786C6@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Nov 12, 99 07:43:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/50e80e46/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Fri Nov 12 19:51:18 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Convergent Technologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I just acquired 3 convergent technologies computers. They are a series of > modules that plug together, each module is the size of a very thick book. > They have external power supplies with a 2 foot long cable with snap > connectors to connect power supply to module. The modules plus together > along the side and a latch locks the connection. These are members of Convergent's NGEN workstations. They use intel CPUs and are not related in any way to their more well-known Mini- and MitiFrame computers. > information I got from the web doesn't say what kind of CPU chip was used, > what the computers were designed for and if they are still supported. From > several web searches I think these machines ran CTOS which was dropped by > Unisys. What little information you have found is correct and is about as much as I know myself. The machines seemed to be popular at banks but this is all hypothetical knowledge. They are not still supported. Eventually the systems evolved from the hardware you have in front of you to a "CTOS Executive" software module running under Windows NT on a generic Pentium-class system. > The date on the inside of the cases is 1983 and 1984. > Module 1 CPU with 3 extra memory modules, one labeled datapoint, one > convergent tech, one burroughs With those dates, you most likely have a CM001 CPU which has an intel 80186 processor inside. The 001/8 runs at 8 MHz and the 001/6 runs at 6 MHz. The memory modules are most likely 256k apiece, and the machine should have 256k RAM built into the CPU. As somebody else mentioned, Burroughs made an identical line of machines under their own label. > two right angle db9 connectors that seem to be made to connect "cluster > controller" connector in the side of the CPU. Other looks like terminal > cable. Does anyone know what kind of terminal would work? Any other > information would be appreciated. I couldn't guess what sort of terminal might be used. The machines are foreign enough to me that I have only a vague idea of how to run one, and all my systems use dedicated display hardware for their consoles. I'm not sure serial consoles are supported, though I have no proof of this, one way or the other. Any revelations you might have I would be interested in hearing, as the three different models of these machines I have are equally as baffling to me as I'm sure yours are to you. (: ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Nov 12 19:57:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <991112205737.20200443@trailing-edge.com> >OK, that just how the date was entered, not how it was stored internally, >but it's not that different. I would claim this is certainly 'prior art'. >And I doubt if this is the first time it was done either. Just because it was done before doesn't mean that a patent won't be granted, especially when it comes to patenting algorithms. Witness the discussions in comp.arch earlier this year about IBM patenting a well-known (has been in textbooks since the 1960's) algorithm for converting multi-digit decimal numbers to binary. Tim. From mbg at world.std.com Fri Nov 12 20:14:52 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <199911130214.VAA01478@world.std.com> >Check outghis article, it appears that somone recently patented the >idea of using a pivot date, such as 30, and having the computer >consider numbers below that pivot point as being in the year 20??, ie >as being from 2000 - 2029. and he's trying to force companies that >used that programming technique to fix their Y2K problems, to pay him >millions. 70% of companies supposedly use that concept. Just another argument for me to believe that no individual programming techniques should be patentable, only total products... How many of us have used that technique for years for things even before Y2K was an issue?! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Nov 12 20:22:36 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions References: <199911122329.XAA29654@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <199911130222.VAA04630@world.std.com> >quantity in two four bit hardware registers) to "00". Since RT-11 (I >know - I can't get away from it) has 1973 as the earliest legal date, I Actually, the lowest date for RT is 1972... that is the beginning of the 'RT Epoch'... :-) >wrote the software to assume that any year value less than "70" was after >1999. In addition, back in 1993 or maybe as late as 1994, I patched the >code for the actual RT-11 OS (V5.6 of RT-11) to do the same thing. This >was not the standard that was finally adopted for V5.7 of RT-11 wherein >any date after 1999 was required to specify a four digit year, but it is >very obvious that many other people were already using the concept of a >pivot date long before 1998. I also modified some software for a company >that makes cars (you know those big hunks of metal with four wheels and a >nut in the front seat) - I think that was delivered in 1997 and those >patches also used a pivot date concept. So I doubt that it will take >much to prove that the granting the patent was "inappropriate". >Anyone else have any stories about using a pivot date some time ago! Yep... Back when I was doing some 'private advanced development' of RT-11 post-V5.6, and before Mentec started work on V5.7, I implemented just that sort of thing (I think it was about 1995 or so, but I'll have to check my files). I had, for example, the DATE command modified so that it would accept both 2-digit and 4-digit year specifications. If the year specified was 72 to 99, it was assumed to be 1972 to 1999. If it was 00 to 71, it was assumed to be 2000 to 2071. Years 2072 to 2099 (the limit handled by the RT-11 date format) would *have* to be specified in the 4-digit form. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 12 21:24:26 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions References: <199911122329.XAA29654@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <382CD9EA.24BBA8C1@idirect.com> >Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Check outghis article, it appears that somone recently patented the > idea of using a pivot date, such as 30, and having the computer > consider numbers below that pivot point as being in the year 20??, ie > as being from 2000 - 2029. and he's trying to force companies that > used that programming technique to fix their Y2K problems, to pay him > millions. 70% of companies supposedly use that concept. > > http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?template=tech_a&slug=y2k12 > > -Lawrence LeMay Jerome Fine replies: My Netscape did strange things and attached everything as a file. For those of you who can't or have decided to not open files, this is just a repeat. I guess some people will try anything. I did a contract job back in 1998 for a company who wanted non-Y2K compliant software to use the DATE/TIME chips on a computer board for a PDP-11 to READ the DATE information and interpret the 2 digit year correctly. Fortunately, the firmware for the DATE/TIME chips rolled over from "99" (for the year - kept as a BCD quantity in two 4 bit hardware registers) to "00". Since RT-11 (I know - I can't get away from it) has 1973 as the earliest legal date, I wrote the software to assume that any year value less than "70" was after 1999. In addition, back in 1993 or maybe 1994, I patched the code for the actual RT-11 OS (V5.6 of RT-11) to do the same thing. This was not the standard that was finally adopted for V5.7 of RT-11 wherein any date after 1999 was required to specify a four digit year, but it is very obvious that many other people were already using the concept of a pivot date long before 1998. I also modified some software for a company that makes cars (you know those big hunks of metal with four wheels and a nut in the front seat) - I think that was delivered in 1997 and those patches also used a pivot date concept. So I doubt that it will take much to prove that granting the patent was "inappropriate". Anyone else have any stories about using a pivot date some time ago? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 12 22:17:14 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions In-Reply-To: <199911130214.VAA01478@world.std.com> from Megan at "Nov 12, 1999 09:14:52 pm" Message-ID: <199911130417.WAA25693@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > >Check outghis article, it appears that somone recently patented the > >idea of using a pivot date, such as 30, and having the computer > >consider numbers below that pivot point as being in the year 20??, ie > >as being from 2000 - 2029. and he's trying to force companies that > >used that programming technique to fix their Y2K problems, to pay him > >millions. 70% of companies supposedly use that concept. > > Just another argument for me to believe that no individual programming > techniques should be patentable, only total products... How many of > us have used that technique for years for things even before Y2K was > an issue?! > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer Well, just as long as you give me a chance to patent MY great idea. I figured out a great way to fix many problems due to using non initialized variables in programs, by adding a statement similar to: variable = 0. And i've worked out techniques to initialize variables to values of 1, 2, and 3 as well. I believe further research will make more values possible, but of course i maintain that these future developments would all be covered by my patent idea... -Lawrence (future billionaire) LeMay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Nov 12 23:48:26 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: FW: Free RRD40 cdrom drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone want some freebie RRD-40 drives, get hold of the fellow in the attached message. He's got three. -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:18:46 -0700, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>From: Phillip Williams >>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>Subject: rrd40 cdroms >>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:18:46 -0700 >>Organization: Southwest Cyberport >>Lines: 7 >>Message-ID: >>NNTP-Posting-Host: lobo.net >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!WCG!feeder.nmix.net!198.59.136.4.MISMATCH!feeder.swcp.com!sloth.swcp.com!sleepy.lobo.net!phdevax >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:5102 >> >>hello >>I replaced the rrd40s from 3 infoservers with sony cdroms, so >>the rrd40s are free to anybody that can use them. Sorry only have >>2 caddies. also if you want the caddies the 40s come along as a >>neat package. >>phillip -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Nov 12 23:48:21 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Prime 2550 possibly available Message-ID: I have been thinkin' lately that perhaps I oughta stick strictly to DEC Stuff... and I am trying to reduce the tonnage around here. So I gets to lookin' at the bee-yoo-tee-full PR1ME mainframe that I actually paid to rescue. And it ain't got no DEC logos on it nowhere. Is anyone withing the purview of The List and within trucking distance of LA CA interested in this machine? It is in working condition, has a lot of software loaded on it (exactly how mnay app I don't know) and has extensive and complete software doc. It laso has several 1/2" tapes, tow with the OS and one 7"-er marked 'games'. Peripherals are 1.2G SCSI Seagate Sabre w/front panel, 350M CDC SMD (spare SMD avail) 32 user ports and Kennedy 9100 1/2" drive. Power runs on 110 single phase... not in original cabinet, so some cooling fans will need to be added. Unit is in 6' rack with casters, Kennedy is seperate and loose, tho I have the rack slides for it. 35 serial cables are included, and one spare CPU and two spare 1M memory cards. The original control panel is also present and functioning. IDEALLY... I'd like to sell it, but the price is variable according to the situation of the prospective adopter. I *did* pay good money to keep this old girl out of the scrapper's. Any van or small pickup truck can handle the whole thing in one go. I want it to be loved and *run* and played with. Now's your chance to do a little Pick hacking... from what I read in the Doco, that's included in there somewhere. OS rev is 20.2.8 for the PR1ME literate among you. Any takers in or near SoCal? Cheers John From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Nov 13 05:43:45 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I really dont have any preference to a serial chip other than > that it should be > > reliable and easy to source. I have no spare T2s either. All > the spares I have > > are the T400 (2-link) transputers. > > I've never used one of those. I may have the odd spare T414 (or maybe > even a T8 of some kind) that I can use for this project, though. I > wouldn't be hard to convert the design to use other transputers, of > course. > Sure that seems fine. I also realized the T400s would be a mess as it would break the pipeline on a B008. Some extrnal ram would be nice. How about 64K of SRAM. That should be plenty for most work I would think. > I don't know who owns the copyright on the transputer card I designed (T4 > or T8 + 256K DRAM + interfaces to some custom hardware), but if it's me, > or I can get permission to hand it round, I'd be happy to release it for > non-commerical use. I will look into this sometime. > That would be nice. I dont have any freely releasable transputer card designs. People always ask me where they can get transputer cards, with a design spec, they can build one themselves. Thanks Tony. I really appreciate it. Ram From wheagy at erols.com Sat Nov 13 10:27:34 1999 From: wheagy at erols.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: going soon, machines in Woodbridge, VA, USA Message-ID: <382D9176.40AD122C@erols.com> I'm interested...please put me on the list. I live in NOVA. Thanks, Win wheagy@erols.com From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 13 10:28:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram Message-ID: <001201bf2df4$29e35e20$0400c0a8@winbook> I wonder what happened to the "app-note" type designs that were floating around about 15 years ago. It was hard to get them to stop sending them to me when I was working at the "Rocket Ranch." They were purported to be small and simple, intended for ganging up on a task, and not my cup of tea, so I never bothered to save them. They must have had a serial (RS-232) version, because I considered them for a hugely parallel test fixture for proving that yet another Honeywell-Bull system proposed to the Pentagon didn't work as advertised. We built a single board system which filled a 6' rack, with 68701's on both sides to perform the test. It proved the system didn't work, but the Pentagon bought it anyway. It's nice to know that your work matters. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ram Meenakshisundaram To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 4:47 AM Subject: RE: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram >> > I really dont have any preference to a serial chip other than >> that it should be >> > reliable and easy to source. I have no spare T2s either. All >> the spares I have >> > are the T400 (2-link) transputers. >> >> I've never used one of those. I may have the odd spare T414 (or maybe >> even a T8 of some kind) that I can use for this project, though. I >> wouldn't be hard to convert the design to use other transputers, of >> course. >> >Sure that seems fine. I also realized the T400s would be a mess as it would >break the pipeline on a B008. Some extrnal ram would be nice. How about >64K of SRAM. That should be plenty for most work I would think. > >> I don't know who owns the copyright on the transputer card I designed (T4 >> or T8 + 256K DRAM + interfaces to some custom hardware), but if it's me, >> or I can get permission to hand it round, I'd be happy to release it for >> non-commerical use. I will look into this sometime. >> > >That would be nice. I dont have any freely releasable transputer card >designs. People always ask me where they can get transputer cards, with a >design spec, they can build one themselves. Thanks Tony. I really >appreciate it. > > >Ram > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Nov 13 11:47:47 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Now a UDA50 question... Message-ID: <13499299664.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I need to know what the LEDs on the UDA50 boards mean. There's 4 on each board, and they should strobe, and mine don't. Anyone got a manual? ------- From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Nov 13 12:14:18 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Now a UDA50 question... In-Reply-To: <13499299664.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Nov 13, 1999 9:47:47 am" Message-ID: <199911131815.NAA12400@pechter.dyndns.org> > I need to know what the LEDs on the UDA50 boards mean. There's 4 on each > board, and they should strobe, and mine don't. Anyone got a manual? Sure do... but it may be out of date and rev specific. What's the error code...? Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Nov 13 12:17:42 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Now a UDA50 question... In-Reply-To: <199911131815.NAA12400@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <13499305109.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> The pattern is the same on both boards: 0 = off, 1 = on. 0101 <--- the front of the case is this direction <--- They strobe once and then lock in this manner. ------- From denic at liii.com Sat Nov 13 12:19:49 1999 From: denic at liii.com (Dennis N. Aruta) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: The most Famous ASR33! Message-ID: FYI, scroll down to the bottom of this page and you will see a very famous ASR 33 Teletype machine at work in a Harvard Dorm! One recently sold on e-bay for $375.00, values must be increasing? Click here: Microsoft Museum Pre-Computer Timeline Exhibit: You Say You Want A Revolution? Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) & International Commerce List (c), INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE + SHIPS Visit my Message Board FireTalk 34260 denic ICQ #174727 Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com DenicNY@aol.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 13 11:49:46 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: The most Famous ASR33! Message-ID: <007901bf2dff$79753ca0$ec74e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Dennis N. Aruta To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 1:21 PM Subject: The most Famous ASR33! >FYI, > scroll down to the bottom of this page and you will see a very >famous ASR 33 Teletype machine at work in a Harvard Dorm! >One recently sold on e-bay for $375.00, values must be increasing? The $$ value of old mini computer equipment is climbing quickly. The going rate for an ASR-33 with reader relay running, mint *was* $300US.. As more people want the stuff the prices are going right up. There are more and more people realizing collecting computers can be as fun as[or more] than collecting antique cars. If anyone here is looking for an ASR-33 please e-mail me to get on my list. I am picking up 10-15 units in mint condition from a factory in early January. John B http://www.pdp8.com/ > >HREF="http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/museum/exhibits/onceupontime/revoluti on. >asp">Click here: Microsoft Museum Pre-Computer Timeline Exhibit: You Say >You >Want A Revolution? > >Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) & International Commerce List (c), > > >INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE + SHIPS > > >Visit my Message Board > > FireTalk 34260 denic > ICQ #174727 > >Mailing address: >Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 >P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 >New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 >U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com > DenicNY@aol.com > > > > > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Nov 13 13:20:25 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: PR1ME 2550 Additional Message-ID: I forgot one of the Prime peripherals.. comes from trying to type when falling asleep.. check out all those transposition typos.. This rig had at one time a Printronix P300, and has the cable set up for the Dataproducts interface. I have a P300, tho it is not the one originally with the computer. I had intended the P300 to be used as a line printer with the PDP stuff, but a suitable bribe and/or trade could possibly sway my thinking. Cheers John From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Nov 13 14:02:38 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... In-Reply-To: <007901bf2dff$79753ca0$ec74e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991113150238.0097b2e0@127.0.0.1> As I gaze into my crystal ball... I can look into the future.... It is getting clearer now... clearer... I can see the possiblity of maybe a Vax in my basement sometime soon... :-) :-) There's a guy from Canada (right across the river - I live in a border town) that is a repair rep for (now) Compaq that does the service on a number of Vaxen in northern Ontario, with whom I've opened a dialogue! We started talking about the lunacy of Win2k, the inability of WinNT and defined the "good" in "good old days..."; how Wintel just doesn't cut it compared to the older stuff and ooey-gooeys just give you sticky fingers. ;-) Anyway, from what I understand, he mostly works on Alpha-based machines now, but did Vax work in the past and knows a lot of the installations around the area. While we were recounting the good old days, I casually mentioned "well, ya know, if you know of anyone wanting to get rid of a Vax..." and he said that he may know of a few being replaced!!! :-) He was also telling me how he thought the OLC (Ontario Lottery Corporation (IIRC) - they have a rather large office building [for this area] in Sault, Ontario) and he thought they were throwing out some stuff but didn't know if they already did, and what problems I might have with Customs on the return trip (but I know a lot of Customs agents, so I should be able to swing anything provided it's not illegal... :-) but he'll check it out and let me know next week if anything's available. (he's out of town in Toronto for a week). So... maybe I'll get to ask a lot of Vax questions here soon!!! :-) Take care & happy hunting, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 13 13:05:14 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... Message-ID: <00ad01bf2e0a$0485ee20$ec74e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 3:03 PM Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... >As I gaze into my crystal ball... I can look into the future.... It is >getting clearer now... clearer... I can see the possiblity of maybe a Vax >in my basement sometime soon... :-) :-) > >There's a guy from Canada (right across the river - I live in a border >town) that is a repair rep for (now) Compaq that does the service on a >number of Vaxen in northern Ontario, with whom I've opened a dialogue! We >started talking about the lunacy of Win2k, the inability of WinNT and >defined the "good" in "good old days..."; how Wintel just doesn't cut it >compared to the older stuff and ooey-gooeys just give you sticky fingers. >;-) > >Anyway, from what I understand, he mostly works on Alpha-based machines >now, but did Vax work in the past and knows a lot of the installations >around the area. While we were recounting the good old days, I casually >mentioned "well, ya know, if you know of anyone wanting to get rid of a >Vax..." and he said that he may know of a few being replaced!!! :-) > >He was also telling me how he thought the OLC (Ontario Lottery Corporation >(IIRC) - they have a rather large office building [for this area] in Sault, >Ontario) and he thought they were throwing out some stuff but didn't know >if they already did, and what problems I might have with Customs on the >return trip (but I know a lot of Customs agents, so I should be able to >swing anything provided it's not illegal... :-) but he'll check it out and >let me know next week if anything's available. (he's out of town in Toronto >for a week). The Ontario Lottery Corporation uses a lot of Vaxes. (6000s +++). I met a bunch of guys from their systems department in "DEC unlimited traning" back when Digital was popular. If you want anything specific, I use to work with (and know quite well) one of the Board of Directors at the Ontario Lottery Corp... (He use to work in the Legislative Assembly in systems). John > >So... maybe I'll get to ask a lot of Vax questions here soon!!! :-) > >Take care & happy hunting, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From sring at uslink.net Sat Nov 13 14:34:19 1999 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: CoCo hacking Message-ID: <00c201bf2e16$f7f5c2e0$3257ddcc@uslink.net> From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net I would like to get into CoCo hacking. Can anyone suggest sources of information: web sites, email lists, books, etc.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/436b97f4/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 13 15:33:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991113150238.0097b2e0@127.0.0.1> (message from Roger Merchberger on Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:02:38 -0500) References: <3.0.1.32.19991113150238.0097b2e0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <19991113213321.3493.qmail@brouhaha.com> Roger Merchberger wrote about moving big iron from Canada to the US: > and what problems I might have with Customs on the > return trip (but I know a lot of Customs agents, so I should be able to > swing anything provided it's not illegal... :-) I don't know any Customs agents, but I need to move a large machine from Vancouver BC into the US soon. What sort of experience should I expect? If asked to describe it, what should I say? Will I have to pay duties on it? From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 13 15:01:06 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... Message-ID: <00f201bf2e1a$3430bd20$ec74e2d1@default> No Duty. I move machines from the US to Canada and Canada to the US.. You pay DEPENDING on how honest you are. You may have to pay State tax on the purchase price when bringing it across the border. Be sure to say it is for your PERSONAL hobby. Get a receipt from the place you are purchasing the mini from. If you..,,, well.... ummm, some people.. might do this: Go to the customs office BEFORE they pick up their equipment. They bring a small dead case with a tag that has the "model # and serial number" of the mini. They get customs to give them a green card for the unit so it can re-enter the country free of charge. You get the idea.... or They write you a receipt for $50 calling it old computer junk.. It's hardly worth while if you are paying small $$$$ for it. Make sure you know the country of origin. If you tell customs this is a business transaction and you don't have an Import/Export License nor valid paper work you will probably end up LEAVING it there... (after they beat you up ;-) ) To avoid hassles I got my import/export license and am my own Broker... no headaches other than having to wait in line with the truckers. john http://www.pdp8.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... >Roger Merchberger wrote about moving big iron >from Canada to the US: >> and what problems I might have with Customs on the >> return trip (but I know a lot of Customs agents, so I should be able to >> swing anything provided it's not illegal... :-) > >I don't know any Customs agents, but I need to move a large machine from >Vancouver BC into the US soon. What sort of experience should I expect? >If asked to describe it, what should I say? Will I have to pay duties >on it? > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 13 15:47:19 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... In-Reply-To: <00f201bf2e1a$3430bd20$ec74e2d1@default> (dylanb@sympatico.ca) References: <00f201bf2e1a$3430bd20$ec74e2d1@default> Message-ID: <19991113214719.3730.qmail@brouhaha.com> "John B" wrote: > No Duty. I move machines from the US to Canada and Canada to the US.. You > pay DEPENDING on how honest you are. > > You may have to pay State tax on the purchase price when bringing it across > the border. Be sure to say it is for your PERSONAL hobby. Get a receipt from > the place you are purchasing the mini from. Is there a problem if I am getting the machine for free? Should I pay $1 for it instead, and get a receipt for that amount? From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 13 15:45:33 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... Message-ID: <00fe01bf2e20$69dbb1e0$ec74e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... >"John B" wrote: >> No Duty. I move machines from the US to Canada and Canada to the US.. You >> pay DEPENDING on how honest you are. >> >> You may have to pay State tax on the purchase price when bringing it across >> the border. Be sure to say it is for your PERSONAL hobby. Get a receipt from >> the place you are purchasing the mini from. > >Is there a problem if I am getting the machine for free? Should I pay >$1 for it instead, and get a receipt for that amount? > NO WAY. At 5-7% tax put a REALISTIC "junk" value on it.. If they think you are BSing them they will pull out a book and find out what the REPLACEMENT value is.. I was at the border once with a load of minis (early 80s).. when these things were still considered worth money... Worse off I got lost and had hives everywhere and was throwing up (from one of *your* donut shops).. I had a receipt for $25.. he guy did not believe I paid that for them. He wanted me to unload the truck and he was going to *value* the equipment. While throwing up beside him I invoked my right to be "refused" entry to the country and be turned back with my load. I called for some help (as I was getting sicker).. Drove to a friends place and got a new receipt for $300. (went to another border bridge) (the tax difference would have been $21... hardly worth it.) Put a value of a couple hundred bucks and pay $12 in taxes.... john http://www.pdp8.com/ From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Nov 13 17:08:19 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... References: <00f201bf2e1a$3430bd20$ec74e2d1@default> Message-ID: <382DEF63.39C87A18@idirect.com> aaaaa >John B wrote: > No Duty. I move machines from the US to Canada and Canada to the US.. You > pay DEPENDING on how honest you are. Jerome Fine replies: It also depends on how old and how dirty the hardware is. About 3 months ago, I went to Detroit to pick up some old VT100 terminals. For some reason, there were coated with coal dust - or something that looked like it. I had about 6 in the back seat and when customs looked at them, I suspect that that they were loath to even touch them because of all the dirt. Since I had not paid anything for them, there was no duty or GST in going from the US to Canada. > You may have to pay State tax on the purchase price when bringing it across > the border. Be sure to say it is for your PERSONAL hobby. Get a receipt from > the place you are purchasing the mini from. Another time I went to Buffalo and the charge was $US10.00 which the fellow surprised me by actually asking for it. Not that it was not worth that much (BA123 with RD53 and TK50), but usually when the price is that low, no one actually cares. At the border, they did not even care about the invoice, the main factor was the date on the power supply - 1985 which made it so old that the customs guy could hardly believe it. So again, I was waived through without any duties or GST. It would seem that anything more than about 10 years old is OK, PLUS the suggestion that you get a receipt (also have a phone number that they can check to verify that the amount was correct) is excellent. As long as the value is $CAN20.00 or less, I understand Canada does not charge duties or GST. That may have changed since I last crossed the border since I understand that they also collect Ontario PST. If that boosts the total to an amount customs figures is reasonable, then the threshold minimum value may now be lower than $CAN20.00. I don't know how the US handles things, but on low values, it is probably similar. Does anyone have any specific experience or examples? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 13 16:23:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: CoCo hacking In-Reply-To: <00c201bf2e16$f7f5c2e0$3257ddcc@uslink.net> from "Stephanie Ring" at Nov 13, 99 02:34:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/fedc2376/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 13 16:12:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Need a RS232 interface transputer tram In-Reply-To: from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 13, 99 06:43:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/a36111f1/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Nov 13 17:25:18 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... In-Reply-To: <00fe01bf2e20$69dbb1e0$ec74e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991113182518.009c8da0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that John B may have mentioned these words: >I was at the border once with a load of minis (early 80s).. when these >things were still considered worth money... Worse off I got lost and had >hives everywhere and was throwing up (from one of *your* donut shops).. I >had a receipt for $25.. he guy did not believe I paid that for them. He >wanted me to unload the truck and he was going to *value* the equipment. Which *your* do you mean? On which side of the creek do you reside? ;-) Also, it's a good idea to know when your local border crossing has slow times -- stop in and ask a few questions about duty & tax laws *when the border guards are not busy*. I can't stress that enough, because if they're booked full and you start asking what can be perceived (to them) as really stupid questions, they *will* remember you and give you a hard time. [[Hint: Despite the fact that both in the US and Canada you are considered innocent until proven guilty, that does *not* count with Customs. You are guilty until proven innocent. Period.]] It pays to get on the good side of Customs officers, and if you ask questions when they're not busy, they're usually happy to help and maybe even stand around and shoot the bull for a while. Do this a few times, and if you do stop by with a trailer full of mini's, when you say that these are for you hobby the Customs agents will first think "yea, that's the looney guy that collects old computers for fun." and you have a lot more of a chance they'll believe this actually is a *hobby*. Another tip, if you have small items: If possible, always have *something* to declare. I used this trick all the time: I'd go to the RatShack in Canada (prices were better for computer stuff in Canada back in '86-'87) and purchase a piece of Tandy software and whatever else CoCo stuff I wanted. Keep in mind that all Tandy software was manufactured in the USA, but most CoCo hardware was manufactured in Korea or Japan. Back then (not sure about now with NAFTA) anything made in the US could come "back" to the US duty free, but anything from Korea/Japan you had to pay duty. I'd (usually) hide the items of Asian manufacture, and when I got to the border and they'd ask me if I had anything to declare, I'd say "Sure!!" I'd show them the software, and then point to the line and say "See this line here? It says 'Custom Made in the USA for Tandy Corporation.'" They'd look, say "O.K." and wave me thru. [[ Of course, YMMV and I will *not* be held responsible if this trick doesn't work for you. ;-) ]] >(went to another border bridge) That's fine & dandy if you live in a city of a few million... Me? I have one bridge to/from Canada in, oh, at least 250 miles either direction. If you're in a small border town, get to know your border guards. :-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From oajones at bright.net Sat Nov 13 18:27:57 1999 From: oajones at bright.net (O. Alan Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: CoCo hacking References: <00c201bf2e16$f7f5c2e0$3257ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: <382E020C.A95B04B8@bright.net> Hi Stephanie, try out this link: http://home.wwdb.org/irgroup/ Stephanie Ring wrote: > From: "Stephanie Ring" > sring@uslink.net I would like to get into CoCo hacking. Can > anyonesuggest sources of information: web sites, email lists,books, > etc.? --Alan "A mind is a terrible thing to waste." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/f4f65baa/attachment.html From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 13 17:44:39 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:30 2005 Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... Message-ID: <001b01bf2e32$a6275020$3273e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 6:25 PM Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... >Rumor has it that John B may have mentioned these words: > >>I was at the border once with a load of minis (early 80s).. when these >>things were still considered worth money... Worse off I got lost and had >>hives everywhere and was throwing up (from one of *your* donut shops).. I >>had a receipt for $25.. he guy did not believe I paid that for them. He >>wanted me to unload the truck and he was going to *value* the equipment. > >Which *your* do you mean? On which side of the creek do you reside? ;-) I reside in Canada.... > >Also, it's a good idea to know when your local border crossing has slow >times -- stop in and ask a few questions about duty & tax laws *when the >border guards are not busy*. I can't stress that enough, because if they're >booked full and you start asking what can be perceived (to them) as really >stupid questions, they *will* remember you and give you a hard time. >[[Hint: Despite the fact that both in the US and Canada you are considered >innocent until proven guilty, that does *not* count with Customs. You are >guilty until proven innocent. Period.]] It pays to get on the good side of >Customs officers, and if you ask questions when they're not busy, they're >usually happy to help and maybe even stand around and shoot the bull for a >while. > You got it! Yes sir, no sir, can I wipe your.... >Do this a few times, and if you do stop by with a trailer full of mini's, >when you say that these are for you hobby the Customs agents will first >think "yea, that's the looney guy that collects old computers for fun." and >you have a lot more of a chance they'll believe this actually is a *hobby*. > In Canada they move the agents A LOT! They make sure you won't get someone you know everytime... plus a lot of summer students. >Another tip, if you have small items: If possible, always have *something* >to declare. I used this trick all the time: I'd go to the RatShack in >Canada (prices were better for computer stuff in Canada back in '86-'87) >and purchase a piece of Tandy software and whatever else CoCo stuff I >wanted. Keep in mind that all Tandy software was manufactured in the USA, >but most CoCo hardware was manufactured in Korea or Japan. Back then (not >sure about now with NAFTA) anything made in the US could come "back" to the >US duty free, but anything from Korea/Japan you had to pay duty. I'd >(usually) hide the items of Asian manufacture, and when I got to the border >and they'd ask me if I had anything to declare, I'd say "Sure!!" I'd show >them the software, and then point to the line and say "See this line here? >It says 'Custom Made in the USA for Tandy Corporation.'" They'd look, say >"O.K." and wave me thru. > I see you have been there too.... >[[ Of course, YMMV and I will *not* be held responsible if this trick >doesn't work for you. ;-) ]] > >>(went to another border bridge) > >That's fine & dandy if you live in a city of a few million... Me? I have >one bridge to/from Canada in, oh, at least 250 miles either direction. If >you're in a small border town, get to know your border guards. :-) > OOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I go through 4 possible entry points in Niagara Falls. You never see the same guard twice..... I only ever got lucky once and got a girl I use to go to school with... wish I had a Picasso in the car that day :-( >Take care, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 13 19:19:19 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <00e801bf2e3e$473d1a20$d3721fd1@jrkeysppt> Well the week was a little slow and not much is showing but I was able to get a few items. 1. ATT WCS tower rather large unit and not tested yet, only got the tower no KB or monitor with it. 2. Atari AtariLab cartridge with Probe and Atari interface module. Looks like it's for the 800 ? Anyone have a manual for this setup ? 3. Mac Performa 600 for my Mac collection. I now have 44 out of 104 models that I need to complete my Mac collection of units from 1984 to 1995. 4. 51/4 ext. Super Disk Drive by MSD model SD-1 not tested yet. 5. Franklin Ace2100 with only one floppy drive. 6. digital Data cartridge RL02K-DC 7. Tektronix 603 Storage monitor. 8. Mac LC just unit no KB, monitor, or mouse. 9. About 35 different books. 10. A control panel by MAC Panel Co. with various cables still in it. The model is 229222. 11. AA Radio Shack model-100 portable computer with a nice black carrying case and no power. Unit seems to work great using just the 4 batteries. Will play around more this weekend with it. 12. IBM PS/2 model 70 portable (joke) seems to be a 386 with 12 meg HD. Pretty heavy for a portable and only runs with a cord plugged into the wall. Well there were a few more small items but too many to list and then a few more that are 10 years old yet. Keep on computing John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991113/c36c84e3/attachment.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 13 19:27:11 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <0.b9b99ed0.255f69ef@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/99 8:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrkeys@concentric.net writes: > > 12. IBM PS/2 model 70 portable (joke) seems to be a 386 with 12 meg HD. > Pretty heavy for a portable and only runs with a cord plugged into the wall. ah yes, the P70. gas plasma display so that's why it can only run on ac power. make sure your floppy drive works, there was an ECA about that. they seem to sell pretty good around this area, although i have spotted one in a computer junk store for $35, i'm holding off for cheaper. When it was new, it sold for over $7k. D~ From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Nov 13 19:49:38 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... In-Reply-To: <001b01bf2e32$a6275020$3273e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991113204938.009bf890@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that John B may have mentioned these words: >>Which *your* do you mean? On which side of the creek do you reside? ;-) > >I reside in Canada.... O.K. I'm on the US side in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. One thing I can tell you that here we only have 2 donut shops, and they're pretty decent - in a city of 14,000 it doesn't pay to kill off the locals... ;-) (Sault, Ontario has over 80,000 people, I believe, so they have more donut shops to choose from.) If ever we all meet in Niagara Falls, New York, avoid the donut shops! >You got it! Yes sir, no sir, can I wipe your.... :-) Ain't that the truth! :-) >In Canada they move the agents A LOT! They make sure you won't get someone >you know everytime... plus a lot of summer students. Wow... must be that small-town stuff again. Most all agents even on the Canadian side here are over 30, so either they're *really* old students or they don't have access to many students up here. On the US side here, someone has to die if you want a job at Customs, so I'm somewhat chummy with most of the officers here. [[And that's the "important" side for me... Canada's usually quite easy: "Citizenship?" US. (sometimes with a thumb pointed south... ;-) "Why're ya coming to Canada?" Shop. "How long you gonna be here?" Couplhours. "Bringing anything?" Nah. "Go ahead."]] Oh, and don't think the fact your car/truck is nice and shiny and clean and tuned will that keep you from getting stopped. Luck has everything to do with it, and if the officer you pull up to got lucky the night before, it's a breeze. If not... :-( I went to Canada once, wearing greasy sweats, hadn't shaved for a week and wore a baseball cap that said "Candy is dandy but sex won't rot your teeth" ;-), truck barely ran, needed brakes & squealed badly whenever you appled them, muddy as hell, was an *absolute* mess (including 2 US military uniforms crumpled on the passanger side), the bed of the truck was full of trash, most of which was vegetative (which is a *big* no-no when crossing the border) and the guard asked my citizenship, looked at me funny and waved me thru. The next week: fixed, tuned & washed the truck, cleaned, vacuumed and dusted the interior, cleaned out the bed fully, was dressed in a white shirt and tie, fresh haircut... and Bam! The only time I've been pulled over at Canadian Customs. The truck got tagged, they pulled me into the shack, and I got grilled for 20 minutes about everything from what I had for breakfast to the color of my underwear. And... interrogations from border guards are akin to the CIA... They don't *ask* questions. "Yes, Mr. .... Merfriglburger" "That's Mer\sssh\berger" "Yea, whatever. You work at Can-Am?" "Yes." "And you make $3.75 per hour?" "Yes." (getting a bit upset at that...) "You crossed into Canada 6 1/2 days ago?" "Yes." (thinking... Damn, I'd love to see their network system!) (This was 13-14 years ago, after all...) "And you *say* you're coming here for the same reason this week?" "Yes, the Radio Shack still has a sale on, and I got paid today." "Yea, whatever. How much money do you have on your person?" (I *damn* near said "You know everything else about me... you don't know that, too?" Gratefully, I held my forked tongue ;-) "Hummmm... $65-odd cash Canadian, and I guess around $45-$50 US." (and yes, you can be refused entry into *either* country based on vagrancy - If you don't have enough cash to sustain you during your stay in said foriegn land, you'll be sent packing.) "Thank you. Please replace all of your personal items and be on your way." I stepped outside and everything but the steering wheel & seat were removed from my truck... including the contents of the glove compartment & other places of "personal" storage. [[Editor's note - I'm not just picking on Canadian Customs - Years ago (when I was an infant, so that's ~30 years ago) my parents were coming back into the US when US customs stopped them, tore the car apart *including the seats*. When they were all done, they said "You can go. You have 15 minutes to be out of the building." *thankfully* my dad is one hell of a mechanic and had a full toolset with him and could reinstall the seats in a few minutes - despite the fact the tools were spread in a 10 foot radius around the car. No joke.]] Customs can be your friend, or they can be the most sadistic bastards you've ever known. Be nice to them even if they're assholes - or you'll regret it if you do any border crossing at all. >I only ever got lucky once and got a girl I use to go to school with... wish >I had a Picasso in the car that day :-( You can *afford* a Picasso? You must have one hell of a computer collection!!! ;-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Nov 13 19:50:14 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <0.b9b99ed0.255f69ef@aol.com> References: <0.b9b99ed0.255f69ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <19991113195014.E19106@mrbill.net> On Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 08:27:11PM -0500, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/13/99 8:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jrkeys@concentric.net writes: > > 12. IBM PS/2 model 70 portable (joke) seems to be a 386 with 12 meg HD. > > Pretty heavy for a portable and only runs with a cord plugged into the wall. > ah yes, the P70. gas plasma display so that's why it can only run on ac > power. make sure your floppy drive works, there was an ECA about that. they > seem to sell pretty good around this area, although i have spotted one in a > computer junk store for $35, i'm holding off for cheaper. When it was new, it > sold for over $7k. > D~ I've got two of these here in the Austin, Texas area if anybody wants a pair. Will trade them for a six-pack of Coke. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sat Nov 13 20:12:50 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <00e801bf2e3e$473d1a20$d3721fd1@jrkeysppt> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > 2. Atari AtariLab cartridge with Probe and Atari interface module. Looks like it's for the 800 ? Anyone have a manual for this setup ? > Ahhh...the AtariLab. I was so excited when I got mine (uh, more than a few years ago now). Sorry, no manual or even concrete recollection of its operation. But it's fairly simple anyway... From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 13 19:11:22 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... Message-ID: <003001bf2e3d$2a2df180$3273e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 13, 1999 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... >Rumor has it that John B may have mentioned these words: > >>>Which *your* do you mean? On which side of the creek do you reside? ;-) >> >>I reside in Canada.... > >O.K. I'm on the US side in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. One thing I can tell >you that here we only have 2 donut shops, and they're pretty decent - in a >city of 14,000 it doesn't pay to kill off the locals... ;-) (Sault, Ontario >has over 80,000 people, I believe, so they have more donut shops to choose >from.) If ever we all meet in Niagara Falls, New York, avoid the donut shops! > OLC has an office up there. To be fair to the province they have their quarterly meetings in each "quadrant" of Ontario.. He complains about the Sault.. >>You got it! Yes sir, no sir, can I wipe your.... > >:-) Ain't that the truth! :-) > >>In Canada they move the agents A LOT! They make sure you won't get someone >>you know everytime... plus a lot of summer students. > >Wow... must be that small-town stuff again. Most all agents even on the >Canadian side here are over 30, so either they're *really* old students or >they don't have access to many students up here. On the US side here, >someone has to die if you want a job at Customs, so I'm somewhat chummy >with most of the officers here. [[And that's the "important" side for me... >Canada's usually quite easy: "Citizenship?" US. (sometimes with a thumb >pointed south... ;-) "Why're ya coming to Canada?" Shop. "How long you >gonna be here?" Couplhours. "Bringing anything?" Nah. "Go ahead."]] HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAH... Verbatim... Our line is always: Where are you going? Factory outlet malls on Military Road. (A lot more believable if my wife is in the car ;-) ) > >Oh, and don't think the fact your car/truck is nice and shiny and clean and >tuned will that keep you from getting stopped. Luck has everything to do >with it, and if the officer you pull up to got lucky the night before, it's >a breeze. If not... :-( Agreed. > >I went to Canada once, wearing greasy sweats, hadn't shaved for a week and >wore a baseball cap that said "Candy is dandy but sex won't rot your teeth" >;-), truck barely ran, needed brakes & squealed badly whenever you appled >them, muddy as hell, was an *absolute* mess (including 2 US military >uniforms crumpled on the passanger side), the bed of the truck was full of >trash, most of which was vegetative (which is a *big* no-no when crossing >the border) and the guard asked my citizenship, looked at me funny and >waved me thru. > >The next week: fixed, tuned & washed the truck, cleaned, vacuumed and >dusted the interior, cleaned out the bed fully, was dressed in a white >shirt and tie, fresh haircut... and Bam! The only time I've been pulled >over at Canadian Customs. The truck got tagged, they pulled me into the >shack, and I got grilled for 20 minutes about everything from what I had >for breakfast to the color of my underwear. And... interrogations from >border guards are akin to the CIA... They don't *ask* questions. > I have seen it happen many times. More often I watch people get busted for hiding booze in the spare tire. Funniest one was once I saw this car speed through.. sirens went off, and the trunk popped open.. A bunch of Immigrants went running in every direction. >"Yes, Mr. .... Merfriglburger" > "That's Mer\sssh\berger" >"Yea, whatever. You work at Can-Am?" > "Yes." >"And you make $3.75 per hour?" > "Yes." (getting a bit upset at that...) >"You crossed into Canada 6 1/2 days ago?" > "Yes." (thinking... Damn, I'd love to see their network system!) > (This was 13-14 years ago, after all...) >"And you *say* you're coming here for the same reason this week?" > "Yes, the Radio Shack still has a sale on, and I got paid today." >"Yea, whatever. How much money do you have on your person?" > (I *damn* near said "You know everything else about me... > you don't know that, too?" Gratefully, I held my forked tongue ;-) > "Hummmm... $65-odd cash Canadian, and I guess around $45-$50 US." > (and yes, you can be refused entry into *either* country > based on vagrancy - If you don't have enough cash to sustain It works both ways.. You get tossed if you don't have enough or you get beaten with drug charges if you have more than $10K. > you during your stay in said foriegn land, you'll be sent packing.) >"Thank you. Please replace all of your personal items and be on your way." > >I stepped outside and everything but the steering wheel & seat were removed >from my truck... including the contents of the glove compartment & other >places of "personal" storage. > >[[Editor's note - I'm not just picking on Canadian Customs - Years ago >(when I was an infant, so that's ~30 years ago) my parents were coming back >into the US when US customs stopped them, tore the car apart *including the >seats*. When they were all done, they said "You can go. You have 15 minutes >to be out of the building." *thankfully* my dad is one hell of a mechanic >and had a full toolset with him and could reinstall the seats in a few >minutes - despite the fact the tools were spread in a 10 foot radius around >the car. No joke.]] > >Customs can be your friend, or they can be the most sadistic bastards >you've ever known. Be nice to them even if they're assholes - or you'll >regret it if you do any border crossing at all. > Sadistic?? HAM RADIO GUYS CAN BE SADISTIC. I use to go to hamfests to pick up pdp 11 stuff. One year there was a show in Buffalo (convention center I think).. A Ham Radio guy I knew was still pissed off with the stuff I got from the last Ham Fest (he missed it as I got there early)... so what did he do???? He called the US Customs office. Gave them MY plate, car, and where I was going... He told them I was smuggling RAM chips in the car. (remember when a meg of Dynamic Ram was $1000?). Well, when I pulled up I heard 3 buzzers go off. They customs guy asked me who I was.. took my license and *told* me to pull over. They pulled apart the car. After finding nothing they told me they were looking for smuggled RAM chips... I thought about it and figured it out with them... When I got to the Ham Fest BEN HENDRICKS (the soon to be beaten HAM guy) asked me how my trip was? and smirked.... I got even with him in a *DEC* kind of way.... (but that's another message). WARNING THOUGH - SIGNIFICANT DEC HARDWARE WAS DAMAGED *BY* HIM IN THE PROCESS. He *really* should have checked the disk media before inserting.... >>I only ever got lucky once and got a girl I use to go to school with... wish >>I had a Picasso in the car that day :-( > >You can *afford* a Picasso? You must have one hell of a computer collection!!! >;-) Not quite.... but I do have an *okay* group right now, and go through MANY old minis (pre- 1972)... I don't really collect though (I am not a pack rat)... I restore systems for *deep pocket* collectors on the side (beginning to be full time) for $$$$. I only keep a few minis that I enjoy playing with... John http://www.pdp8.com/ (to see the newest acquisitions - last month to present). > >Take care, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From ken_g at MailAndNews.com Sun Nov 14 09:52:06 1999 From: ken_g at MailAndNews.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 Message-ID: <382F67A4@MailAndNews.com> I have an old AT&T 3B2/600 and 2 3B2/500 computer systems. I am looking for a boot tape and install media for them. They run AT&T unix. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Ken Guenther From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Nov 14 10:24:31 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 In-Reply-To: <382F67A4@MailAndNews.com> References: <382F67A4@MailAndNews.com> Message-ID: <19991114102431.B22141@mrbill.net> On Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 10:52:06AM -0500, Ken Guenther wrote: >I have an old AT&T 3B2/600 and 2 3B2/500 computer systems. I am looking for a > boot tape and install media for them. They run AT&T unix. Any help would be > appreciated. > Thanks. > Ken Guenther I've got a set of boot tapes (along with the tehcnical reference manual for the boxes in .pdf format on cdrom); let me dig them up over the next few days and give you a holler (I just got rid of my /600). Bibll] -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 12:32:55 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: FREE MicroVAX in UK Message-ID: Found on USENET. As always, don't reply to me, reply to the person in the message below. Zane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:28:36 comp.os.vms Thread 10 of 23 Lines 15 Re: The search for Vaxen RespNo 7 of 8 Chris Quayle at CQ Associates Ltd Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Javier Henderson wrote: > > Are ESDI drives being made even? > Probably not, but they are cheap or given away s/hand and if you find something like the old cdc / imprimis 5.25 full height, they last forever. I have a Microvax 3500 here free to take away. Several RA70 drives, ethernet all in a BA213 box. Any interest ?. Has netbsd on one of the drives and vms 5.4/5 on a couple of the others. Rgrds, Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From transit at primenet.com Sun Nov 14 12:58:15 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies In-Reply-To: <19991031162221141@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 rhudson@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Can anyone help me out I have a working apple ][ plus but no floppies with DOS or Prodos on them. > Also no serial port on the machine. I'll send you DOS and some other stuff in about a week or two. (I had to hunt around for some DSDD floppies). From transit at primenet.com Sun Nov 14 13:51:29 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 rhudson@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Can anyone help me out I have a working apple ][ plus but no floppies with DOS or Prodos on them. > > Also no serial port on the machine. > > I'll send you DOS and some other stuff in about a week or two. (I had to > hunt around for some DSDD floppies). > > Oops, that was meant for rhudson alone, not for the entire group! A thousand pardons! On the other hand, if anyone *else* needs Apple Dos 3.3 . . . From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 14:00:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: I'm wondering what the effective speed of 10Mbit Ethernet is. I've got a DEC 3000/300LX that just isn't giveing me the kind of Xfer rates I expect, and I'm wondering/suspecting there is a problem with my calculations. Using a pair of PDF's totalling 24.6MB as my test I'm getting 8.34MB/Min, yet I'd expect it to be closer to 72MB/Min. The machine on the other end is a G4/450 PowerMac with 100BaseT, plugged into a 10/100Mbit switch, the DEC3000 is plugged into a 10/100Mbit hub which in turn is connected to the switch. Of course part of this could be the 21064/125 processor, and part of it could be the fact I'm using Appletalk. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From a2k at one.net Sun Nov 14 15:12:21 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: New additions In-Reply-To: <3828E827.ADD6FFC6@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Actually it's heat and pressure, which in most cases is implemented > using superheated steam (hence the pressure-cooker style latches and > the pressure gauges usually found on autoclaves). > We have one at school that we use for sterilizing dissection tools and other lab equiptment. It's basically a really big preesure cooker.. It sits nicely on a table with a water line and a drail. Takes about 15 minutes, so I've heard... could probably cook a turkey in there, too. Kevin > Best, > Chris > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sun Nov 14 15:37:37 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1999/11/14 at 12:00pm -0800, you wrote: >I'm wondering what the effective speed of 10Mbit Ethernet is. I've got a >DEC 3000/300LX that just isn't giveing me the kind of Xfer rates I expect, >and I'm wondering/suspecting there is a problem with my calculations. >Using a pair of PDF's totalling 24.6MB as my test I'm getting 8.34MB/Min, >yet I'd expect it to be closer to 72MB/Min. I get 14.7MB/minute, copying four PDFs totalling 22MB from a substantially slower Mac (603e at 180MHz) to a much slower (on-topic:-) DECstation 5000 (R3000 at 33MHz) running Netatalk on NetBSD 1.4.1. >Of course part of this could be the 21064/125 processor, and part of it >could be the fact I'm using Appletalk. Doesn't look like it. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 14 15:50:33 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT" (Nov 14, 12:00) References: Message-ID: <9911142150.ZM26287@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 14, 12:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm wondering what the effective speed of 10Mbit Ethernet is. I've got a > DEC 3000/300LX that just isn't giveing me the kind of Xfer rates I expect, > and I'm wondering/suspecting there is a problem with my calculations. > Using a pair of PDF's totalling 24.6MB as my test I'm getting 8.34MB/Min, > yet I'd expect it to be closer to 72MB/Min. You're basing 72MB/Min on 10Mb/s x 60s divided by 8 bits/byte? No way. You're forgetting about the packet overheads. And the handshaking packets. And the delay in setting up the files and buffers at the receiving end, probably. If you're using 100/10 switchable hubs/routers, there may be a delay in there, too (they buffer the packets if they have to switch from their normal speed). If you were using FTP between two machines running TCP/IP with no other traffic, I'd expect a bit more than the sort of performance you mention, but for NFS, for example, divide by 10. > Of course part of this could be the 21064/125 processor, and part of it > could be the fact I'm using Appletalk. The processor is fast enough, but a lot depends on the software stack and the Appletalk-over-Ethernet overheads. I'm slightly surprised you're not doing better than 8MB/min = 140kB/s, but only slightly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 15:56:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On 1999/11/14 at 12:00pm -0800, you wrote: >>I'm wondering what the effective speed of 10Mbit Ethernet is. I've got a >>DEC 3000/300LX that just isn't giveing me the kind of Xfer rates I expect, >>and I'm wondering/suspecting there is a problem with my calculations. >>Using a pair of PDF's totalling 24.6MB as my test I'm getting 8.34MB/Min, >>yet I'd expect it to be closer to 72MB/Min. > >I get 14.7MB/minute, copying four PDFs totalling 22MB from a >substantially slower Mac (603e at 180MHz) to a much slower (on-topic:-) >DECstation 5000 (R3000 at 33MHz) running Netatalk on NetBSD 1.4.1. Well, one probably big difference is that I'm running OpenVMS 7.2 w/DEC TCPIP on the DEC 3000/300LX. Also Netatalk might give a lot better performance than Pathworks does. The same machine also gets pretty bad Samba performance though. RAM isn't an issue as it's got more than enough for what it's doing. It's kind of frustrating knowing I'd get better performance out of a cheap UNIX box, when I want to use my OpenVMS cluster as a home fileserver. I'm scared to even consider using the on-topic MicroVAX 3 or VAXserver 3100/30 as a front-end, but am wondering how the AlphaStation 200 4/233 or AlphaStation 500/333 would handle the job. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 14 17:55:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 In-Reply-To: <382F67A4@MailAndNews.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991114175519.234f1d34@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ken, I have a pair of 3B2 400s. I've never tried to boot them. I have some docs but no media. Joe At 10:52 AM 11/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >I have an old AT&T 3B2/600 and 2 3B2/500 computer systems. I am looking for a >boot tape and install media for them. They run AT&T unix. Any help would be >appreciated. > >Thanks. >Ken Guenther > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 14 18:02:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: M/PM OS? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991114180206.314726c2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Ok time to show my ignorance again. I just brought home a logic analyzer that has a built in computer that's running M/PM II Ver 2.1. I know M/PM is a multi-tasking version of CPM but that's about all. Can someone tell me more about it or point me toward a good FAQ? What kind of processor do this usually run on? I have no one idea what's inside this box. One of the notes that I got with this stuff hints that it will run "regular" CPM programs. What do you know about that? Joe From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Nov 14 16:13:52 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Intecolor Terminal Acquisition Report Message-ID: Picked up a spiffy Intecolor terminal for free today. I recall one, circa 83 or so, used as the console on an HVAC system at my University. They were really nice, IIRC. What's more interested, however, is WHERE I picked it up...from an employee at Microware in West Des Moines. I got to see their new building that they moved into last year. For those of you who don't know, they are the company that sells OS-9, used on things like Cocos alot. At any rate, I never saw so much cool OS-9 stuff in my life! The guy who gave me the terminal was showing me some websites where people are doing some of the most amazing things with Cocos. One URL is http://bullsbarn.stg.net/, which is the home page for Penn Fest, which is a weekend long fest for those into Coco's. Some cool images. People are expanding Coco's with real I/O, 4 mhz upgrades by turning off some of Tandy's custom chips, 2 and 4 megabyte RAM upgrades, make the graphics chip do more colors than it's supposed to be able to do. IDE interfaces, SCSI interfaces. I'm not into Coco stuff personally but I was impressed at what folks are doing. Just thought I'd share the fun. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 14 16:18:41 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: Kevin Schoedel "Re: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT" (Nov 14, 16:37) References: Message-ID: <9911142218.ZM26362@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 14, 16:37, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > On 1999/11/14 at 12:00pm -0800, you wrote: > >I'm wondering what the effective speed of 10Mbit Ethernet is. I've got a > >DEC 3000/300LX that just isn't giveing me the kind of Xfer rates I expect, > I get 14.7MB/minute, copying four PDFs totalling 22MB from a > substantially slower Mac (603e at 180MHz) to a much slower (on-topic:-) > DECstation 5000 (R3000 at 33MHz) running Netatalk on NetBSD 1.4.1. But are you running over 10baseT (or 10base2) all the way? Zane's system might take a fair performance hit because either the hub or the switch is buffering every packet and retransmitting it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 14 16:29:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <199911142229.RAA21468@world.std.com> < Ok time to show my ignorance again. I just brought home a logic analyze (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <9911142218.ZM26362@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <19991114220758.8997.qmail@brouhaha.com> pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: > But are you running over 10baseT (or 10base2) all the way? Zane's system > might take a fair performance hit because either the hub or the switch is > buffering every packet and retransmitting it. Shouldn't matter on FTP connections, which use TCP. TCP is a windowing protocol designed to accomodate high-latency links without wasting bandwidth. On the other hand, I think he said he was using AppleTalk. AFAIK, the only AppleTalk protocol that does similar windowing is ADSP (AppleTalk Data Stream Protocol), and it doesn't do nearly as good a job of it as TCP. And there aren't very many higher-level services that rely on ADSP; most things (including the AppleShare File Servers) use ATP (AppleTalk Transaction Protocol) which is for all intents and purposes *designed* for poor performance. Typically the real reason you can't get maximum utilization of a fast network connection for file transfers has NOTHING to do with the network performance. Usually it's a matter of the performance of the file system. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 14 16:10:34 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <9911142218.ZM26362@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <9911142218.ZM26362@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <19991114221034.9038.qmail@brouhaha.com> pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: > But are you running over 10baseT (or 10base2) all the way? Zane's system > might take a fair performance hit because either the hub or the switch is > buffering every packet and retransmitting it. Oh, and I forgot to mention that a true "hub" (which in Ethernet terms is just a multiport repeater) does not buffer any packets. The newer so-called Dual Speed Hubs incorporate a two-port switch (which in Ethernet terms is a bridge). They don't buffer packets between same-speed hosts, but will buffer packets between 10 and 100 Mbps hosts. Still, with proper protocols this will cause no noticable performance penalty for bulk transfers. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Nov 14 17:35:32 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Intecolor Fuse Question Message-ID: So I pulled the Intecolor terminal out of the car...model 8001i. The fuse is missing but I'm wondering what the deal is: It's a square fuse holder. I've always seen round ones before. Are there standard fuse types that fit this holder and how hard will it be to find a new cover for it? Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 14 17:58:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <002e01bf2efc$32ab8100$0400c0a8@winbook> Part of my team at the lab where I worked at the rocket ranch was once tasked to quantify this and the first question you must ask is "Is there any DEC hardware in the building, connected or otherwise?" What was determined was that with DEC hardware present, even if not connected, not uncrated, not powered on, it would impact network performance. The interest I had was in that I was routing PCM voice comm's over the same net, and was critically interested in how network loading would effect my throughput, hence, voice quality due to effective packet losses thanks to delays. In the presence of DEC equipment, the upper limit was 33 Kbytes per sec with a 10% net load, i.e. 10% of the available bandwidth is transferred as actual raw data packets. Raw data is data which is both input and output data, i.e. without any additional routing or transfer-associated header, trailer, ecc, etc. Making the DEC equipment happy apparently took more overhead than a PC-only network, since that managed to transfer considerably more, close to 30 MB/min with large packets and considerably less with smaller packets. Apparently, knowing that DEC protocols had to be dealt with caused a sharp increase in overhead. The number of stations attempting to transmit have a large influence on sustainable traffic load and the associated acknowledgment traffic can be substantial, though it doesn't contribute much to (net) throughput. With five stations on my in-house LAN, all inactive other than the server and the station to which the tape is attached during a backup on 10BaseT I can happily feed an admittedly slow Exabyte 8200 which has a maximum transfer bandwidth of 13.038 MB/min. Under 100 Base TX, it happily feeds an Exabyte 8505 which seems to max out at just over 30 MB/min, with no apparent effect on the rest of the traffic, i.e it does that even if I'm running two backups at the same time. That same tape drive takes much longer than the 8200 on the 10BT because it is always working underflows, which means it has to back up and retry the write once it has streamed past the end of its data. My 8500 drives, capable of between 20 and 22 MB/min, fare about as well as the 8500 on the 10BT, and are unaffected by the 100BTx. Hence, a really small 10 BT seems to be able to handle between 10 and 20 MB/min with no other traffic. If packets are small, especially with very small packets, data< To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 1:03 PM Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT >I'm wondering what the effective speed of 10Mbit Ethernet is. I've got a >DEC 3000/300LX that just isn't giveing me the kind of Xfer rates I expect, >and I'm wondering/suspecting there is a problem with my calculations. >Using a pair of PDF's totalling 24.6MB as my test I'm getting 8.34MB/Min, >yet I'd expect it to be closer to 72MB/Min. > >The machine on the other end is a G4/450 PowerMac with 100BaseT, plugged >into a 10/100Mbit switch, the DEC3000 is plugged into a 10/100Mbit hub >which in turn is connected to the switch. > >Of course part of this could be the 21064/125 processor, and part of it >could be the fact I'm using Appletalk. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 14 18:02:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Intecolor Fuse Question Message-ID: <003701bf2efc$a5dfb100$0400c0a8@winbook> I've got a few devices with the square fuse holder in them. It's as common as the round ones, though I've lost covers and had a terrible time replacing them. The ones I have use standard (3AG) fuses as do the round ones. I guess there were a lot of guys who liked square Greenlee punches better than the D-shaped ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Intecolor Fuse Question > >So I pulled the Intecolor terminal out of the car...model 8001i. The fuse >is missing >but I'm wondering what the deal is: It's a square fuse holder. I've >always seen >round ones before. Are there standard fuse types that fit this holder and >how hard >will it be to find a new cover for it? > >Thanks... > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 14 18:06:13 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Applesoft BASIC question Message-ID: <19991114155831141@ix.netcom.com> Anyone know if Comments in my program will slow it down? (Anybody want yet another startrek game?) ron From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 14 18:14:13 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT" (Nov 14, 22:10) References: Message-ID: <9911150014.ZM26488@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 14, 22:10, Eric Smith wrote: > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: > > But are you running over 10baseT (or 10base2) all the way? Zane's system > > might take a fair performance hit because either the hub or the switch is > > buffering every packet and retransmitting it. > > Oh, and I forgot to mention that a true "hub" (which in Ethernet terms > is just a multiport repeater) does not buffer any packets. > > The newer so-called Dual Speed Hubs incorporate a two-port switch (which > in Ethernet terms is a bridge). They don't buffer packets between same-speed > hosts, but will buffer packets between 10 and 100 Mbps hosts. Which is exactly what I was referring to, since Zane described his system as having 10Mb/s at one end, and 100Mb/s at the other :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 14 18:28:29 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions References: <199911122329.XAA29654@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <199911130222.VAA04630@world.std.com> Message-ID: <382F53AD.7CB61C4A@idirect.com> >Megan wrote: > >quantity in two four bit hardware registers) to "00". Since RT-11 (I > >know - I can't get away from it) has 1973 as the earliest legal date, I > Actually, the lowest date for RT is 1972... that is the beginning of > the 'RT Epoch'... :-) Jerome Fine replies: Perhaps you missed the emphasis on "legal" in the "earliest legal date" with regard to the DATE command which will not accept 1972 (e.g. 01-Jan-72). In addition, some of the code in RT-11 in the monitor and elsewhere rejects a date value with a year value of zero - meaning that 1972 is considered invalid by that code. On the other hand, DIR has been coded so as to display a date which includes a year value of zero or 1972 after the bias is added. Which is why I used a pivot value of 70 (or 2070) so as to be sure to avoid any possible conflict for the DATE/TIME hardware clock on the third party board. Any idea how the 11/93 does the 1999 transition with the now Y2K compliant firmware update? > >wrote the software to assume that any year value less than "70" was after > >1999. In addition, back in 1993 or maybe as late as 1994, I patched the > >code for the actual RT-11 OS (V5.6 of RT-11) to do the same thing. This > >was not the standard that was finally adopted for V5.7 of RT-11 wherein > >any date after 1999 was required to specify a four digit year, but it is > >very obvious that many other people were already using the concept of a > >pivot date long before 1998. I also modified some software for a company > >that makes cars (you know those big hunks of metal with four wheels and a > >nut in the front seat) - I think that was delivered in 1997 and those > >patches also used a pivot date concept. So I doubt that it will take > >much to prove that the granting the patent was "inappropriate". > > >Anyone else have any stories about using a pivot date some time ago! > > Yep... > > Back when I was doing some 'private advanced development' of RT-11 > post-V5.6, and before Mentec started work on V5.7, I implemented just that > sort of thing (I think it was about 1995 or so, but I'll have to check my > files). I had, for example, the DATE command modified so that it would > accept both 2-digit and 4-digit year specifications. If the year > specified was 72 to 99, it was assumed to be 1972 to 1999. If it was 00 > to 71, it was assumed to be 2000 to 2071. Years 2072 to 2099 (the limit > handled by the RT-11 date format) would *have* to be specified in the > 4-digit form. When I started to modify RT-11 (many years before Mentec as well), I adopted essentially the same procedure that you suggest above. That was done about two years before you did V5.6 of RT-11. I also extended the DATE command to accept all four digit years from 1973 to 2099, essentially the same as the value output by IND using a four digit year for which I adopted the symbol DATEXT. In IND, I also added TIMEXT which provided the time to the nearest 10 milliseconds. It might also be helpful to note that while it is possible to allow "00" to "71" to represent "2000" to "2071" in the DATE command, that is not possible in utilities such as DIR and PIP where there might be confusion with the "day of the month". Since DIR and PIP are forced to reject vales between "01" and "31" as a year, perhaps you also, as I chose, decided to reject "00" to "71" completely and required all years after "99" to have 4 digits. I also did V5.4G of RT-11 for most of the utilities (DIR, PIP, LINK, LIBR, MACRO and BUP) along with the monitor (RMONFB and KMOVLY) and the tape device drivers. The spooler and things like RTMON.REL did not seem to be worthwhile, so they were postponed. Note that Y2K compliance for V5.4G will stay as a paid for offering until Mentec places versions subsequent to V5.3 on the hobby list (as opposed to Compaq who has now placed most if not all of VMS on the hobby shelf) or at least for a few more years or until there seems to be sufficient hobby interest. Originally, I expected to offer V5.3 Y2K patches this summer, but as my time was taken up with commercial work, that did not happen. And since I received less than 5 inquiries about that possibility, it seemed not worth while in any case. I am still interested in doing Y2K patches for V5.3, but it will not be possible to complete them by the end of 1999. However, if anyone is really interested, SHOUT! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict Present RT-11 Developer (unofficial of course - that means that anything I do is usually ignored by almost everyone else) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 18:50:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <199911142230.RAA21749@world.std.com> Message-ID: >It's the appletalk. Try TCP/IP. It's certainly not the cpu you have plenty >of speed there. Unfortuantly the only options for a Mac these days are Appletalk or Samba, NFS doesn't seem to be available. I could FTP files, but that's more of a pain that long Xfer times. > >Or there is enough traffic on the net to have holdoffs and collisons which >will really slow things. In this case the only traffic on the network was between the Mac and the VMS box. Which is why I was so surprised that the performance was _that_ bad. If I'd have had a bunch of other systems on the network talking at that time I'd have not been suprised, but the only other system up was my firewall. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 14 18:26:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Intecolor Fuse Question In-Reply-To: from "Anthony Clifton - KC0CUE" at Nov 14, 99 05:35:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/6fe9db0a/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 14 19:00:44 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Applesoft BASIC question Message-ID: <0.4152bcc.2560b53c@aol.com> In a message dated 11/14/99 7:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, rhudson@ix.netcom.com writes: > Anyone know if Comments in my program will slow it down? > > (Anybody want yet another startrek game?) > > ron > i dont think they will, but keep your variables to two characters or less. to applesoft, AP variable is the same as APPLESOFT as a variable. you should also put your subroutines near the beginning of the program which will save execution time. DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 19:13:57 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <002e01bf2efc$32ab8100$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >there were no ack's and no error management of any kind over the LAN. IIRC, >Appletalk sends occasional traffic over an otherwise idle LAN. I don't know >whether it does this when there really is traffic. Yes, Appletalk does send a little over the network even when nothing is going on, but not as bad as DECnet. Since I've got AppleTalk, DECnet, Samba, and TCP/IP all running on the same network I've probably got a pretty noisy. Hmmm, just ran a 'tcpdump' and it looks like I'm taking a hit on the network just by having a couple Appletalk shares mounted from the VMS box, about 56-bytes minimum every couple seconds. >The numbers you quote seem a mite low, but not embarassingly so. You are >configured as a single segment, are you not? Not sure how you mean a single segment, there are two hub's attached to the switch, as well as computers, plus I've got a 10Base2 converter and localtalk converter (for the HP 5MP Laserjet) plugged into it. Guess I'll have to turn on FTP on the DEC3000, and see what kind of speeds I get that way. Besides I want to get FTP and NFS turned on anyway. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 14 19:23:46 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Now a UDA50 question... In-Reply-To: <13499305109.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Nov 13, 1999 10:17:42 am" Message-ID: <199911150125.UAA15670@pechter.dyndns.org> > The pattern is the same on both boards: 0 = off, 1 = on. If you had the pattern below it calls out the M7162/7486 M7162 & M7161 = UDA50 M7486 & M7485 = UDA50A Error led MSD is the side to the front of the Ba11 (towards the bottom of the boards. M7162 or M7486 M7161 or M7485 \+-----------------+/ \+------------------+/ | 8 4 2 1 | | 8 4 2 1 | | off on off on | | off on off on| this is | | | | the back of the ba11 front | | | | of +-||--||--||--||--+ +-||--||--||--||---+ BA11-K This points to a failure of the M7146 -- if the stuff is as I've pictured. You seem to have them inverted -- or I misread your note. Your pattern isn't documented as a valid failure code. --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 19:34:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: I just tried FTPing a 20MB file to the VMS box from the Mac. I got 615KB/sec, which works out to about 36.9MB/minute. So, I think it's safe to say that both AppleTalk and Samba performance under VMS suck! Though I guess I should look into if any tuning of AppleTalk performance is possible since it's not dependant on TCP/IP. Glad the FTP performance is that good since I'm wanting to back data files on the Mac up to the VMS box via Retrospect which allows backup via FTP. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 14 19:34:32 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <991114203432.202004da@trailing-edge.com> Jerome Fine replies: >In addition, some of the code in RT-11 in the monitor and elsewhere >rejects a date value with a year value of zero - meaning that 1972 is >considered invalid by that code. This was fixed in RT-11 5.7, it now consistently handles 1972 through 2099, inclusive. >the DATE/TIME hardware clock on the third party board. Any idea >how the 11/93 does the 1999 transition with the now Y2K compliant >firmware update? Look in the NL.MAC source code - the SETUP.SAV window range was chosen identically: .sbttl . Convert clock date to RT-11 format. ; Convert the BCD date read from the clock to the standard RT-11 format: ; ; RT-11 extended date word (RT-11 V5.5ff) ; ; 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 | 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ; +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ ; |yr xtn | month | day | year-1972 | ; +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ ; 2 bits 4 bits 5 bits 5 bits ; ; ; To support the year extension, clock years of 72..99 can be considered to ; be in the 1900s (since the RT-11 base year of 1972) and years of 00..71 can ; be considered to be in the 2000s. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 14 19:18:34 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Applesoft BASIC question In-Reply-To: <19991114155831141@ix.netcom.com> (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) References: <19991114155831141@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19991115011834.10029.qmail@brouhaha.com> rhudson@ix.netcom.com writes: > Anyone know if Comments in my program will slow it down? Yes. Not by a whole lot unless they are in an inner loop. I used to have a program that would strip comments out, so that you could keep a maintainable commented version of a program, and run it through the filter to produce a faster, smaller version. Of course, once Applesoft compilers became common, it was no longer necessary. Anyone have an extra copy of TASC (Microsoft's Applesoft compiler) for sale? From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 14 20:42:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <199911150242.VAA23694@world.std.com> References: <199911150243.VAA23763@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Those numbers are on a par with old MVIIs with DEQNAs and MV2000s (ca1988). Hey! What's wrong with DEQNAs and MV2000s? A serious question, actually: What *is* wrong with MV2000s? I have a few -- not currently in use, but intended for a play-with-VMS-cluster after I move -- and one of them constantly gets ethernet errors. On the machines that work, the lance chip is moved up onto a little daughtercard with a few other components; on the one that doesn't, it's directly in its socket. (Sorry about the lack of detail -- the machines are in storage -- but anyone who knows about this presumably doesn't need my description.) -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Nov 14 21:30:12 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: KK8E, KK8A and front panel questions Message-ID: <19991115033012.1654.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> So I've got this PDP-8/e OMNIBUS box, a pile of cards and want to see what's working. Here's my parts list: 2 x KK8A CPU cards 1 x KK8E board set 1 x MS8-C Hex MOS memory card 2 x KM8 "option 2" cards 2 x DKC8AA "option 1" cards 1 x PDP-8/e OMNIBUS box w/front panel When I load the KK8E into the box, I can set addresses, examine data in the MS8, toggle in small programs (NOP, NOP, JMP 0) that appear to work. One odd thing - when I load an address then deposit data, if I'm reading this thing correctly, it seems that the data is going one location higher in memory than I think I'm at. I'm not certain if this is operator error or something wrong with a card. When I load a KK8A board into the box instead of the KK8E, it runs blank memory OK, but when I attempt to set the load address, pressing the key increments the MA register from what ever it is. I can single step, but not easily set or inspect memory if I can't reset the address. Now the questions: I know you can stick a KK8E in a hex ONMIBUS box (-8/a-620, etc.). What happens if you try to put hex cards in a quad box? (I have the PSU set off to the side for clearance, in case anyone is wondering how I did it.) Does the hex MOS memory _need_ to be in a hex slot to have power/grounds/term on the fifth slot? Is the front panel from a PDP-8/e *compatible* with the KK8A? I do not own a programmer's panel for the DKC8AA, nor do I currently have a hex chassis where the cards are, limiting my options. Eventually, I can get a hex box and all these cards together, but for now I'm trying to work with what I've got. One last side question: has anyone ever used the parallel port on the DKC8-AA? Drivers aside, it seems like you could do quite a lot with it. The handbook suggests that it's possible to use it to run a LA-180, but with the data inverted and with different IOTs. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 14 21:49:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <004801bf2f1c$648830e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, all the things which make the DECnet stuff painfully burdensome in a simple environment like mine, turn around, I'm told, and make a more complex and larger environment work better. Perhaps your system will benefit from the presence of multiple protocols and layers. It doesn't look, from your description, like a single segment. However, for my purposes, it's a single segment if, without any intervening layers (other than the physical ones) all stations can directly "see" one another, particularly, of course, the collisions. Generally, people split up segments when the collision overhead gets too large. It's hard to make that show up with half a dozen stations. If you do as I did, by dumping vast quantities of highly dense data all at once, you'll see the overhead rise. When I got my 100 MHz stuff I was told by the tech support guy at Netgear, an avid LINUX user, that I'd be best reducing the number of protocols supported on my setup, so I deleted all references to Microsoft's NETBEUI. I'm not sure it made things better or faster, but it hasn't hurt anything. My setup is based on a NETWARE server, though, so I can't punt IPX/SPX and the Windows boxes like to talk TCP/IP. Since I'm using that for WAN-ing, I might as well make that the default. Now, if I could just find a TCP/IP driver set for DOS that's not bigger than the NOVELL stuff . . . Perhaps you could reduce the number of protocols a bit. It doesn't always make a lot of difference, but you never know . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT >>there were no ack's and no error management of any kind over the LAN. IIRC, >>Appletalk sends occasional traffic over an otherwise idle LAN. I don't know >>whether it does this when there really is traffic. > >Yes, Appletalk does send a little over the network even when nothing is >going on, but not as bad as DECnet. Since I've got AppleTalk, DECnet, >Samba, and TCP/IP all running on the same network I've probably got a >pretty noisy. > >Hmmm, just ran a 'tcpdump' and it looks like I'm taking a hit on the >network just by having a couple Appletalk shares mounted from the VMS box, >about 56-bytes minimum every couple seconds. > >>The numbers you quote seem a mite low, but not embarassingly so. You are >>configured as a single segment, are you not? > >Not sure how you mean a single segment, there are two hub's attached to the >switch, as well as computers, plus I've got a 10Base2 converter and >localtalk converter (for the HP 5MP Laserjet) plugged into it. > >Guess I'll have to turn on FTP on the DEC3000, and see what kind of speeds >I get that way. Besides I want to get FTP and NFS turned on anyway. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Nov 14 21:48:54 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: New items added to classic computer sale Message-ID: <38358265.183239534@insight> Items Added on 11/14/99: #40) IBM PS/2 Model 30 - no hard drive or floppy drive #42) Compaq SLT-286 Laptop Docking Station #43) Original Radio Shack Color Computer - worked when last used.. Includes 5 1/4" floppy drive and some program carts. Some hand wear on paint below keyboard. #44) Frank Hogg Labs - Radio Shack Color Computer Cartridge Port Expander (prototype?) #45) IBM PC Junior - unknown condition #46) IBM PC Junior - unknown condition #47) Apple Macintosh Model M0001, Serial # F4110WXM0001 - unknown condition; plastic shell is cracked. Includes keyboard. #48) Apple Macintosh 512K - Model M0001W512K Serial # F439338M0001W - worked when last used. Includes keyboard & mouse. #49) Apple Macintosh external high-density 3 1/2" floppy drive #50) North Star Horizon S-100 computer. Clean; missing a bit of wood veneer on left front of cover. Unknown condition - I have never plugged it in. Will add pictures as time allows. http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computer-sale.htm -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 14 21:55:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <005a01bf2f1d$4a071b40$0400c0a8@winbook> Not just humor, Allison. Substantial accomodation for DEC network hardware had to be made back then ('86..'87) because DEC had features which would foul other hardware up if accomodation wasn't made. In order to keep from bringing down the LAN, all software/configuration changes had to be made in advance of connecting the first DEC hardware. It didn't always bring down the LAN, but if that was your only worry, it certainly would. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 7:46 PM Subject: Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT > >This is humor, right? > >Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 14 22:19:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:31 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <199911150419.XAA29579@world.std.com> Tim Shoppa Replies: >Jerome Fine replies: >>In addition, some of the code in RT-11 in the monitor and elsewhere >>rejects a date value with a year value of zero - meaning that 1972 is >>considered invalid by that code. > >This was fixed in RT-11 5.7, it now consistently handles 1972 through >2099, inclusive. Thank you... I was about to respond to Jerome that if it did do that (and I didn't know it did), I would have considered that to be a bug which would require fixing, not programming around... I suspect that the check should actually be made for the day field of the date word being zero as being invalid... the year can be 00, the month can be, too, but the day field should always be non-zero for a valid date. (though I've always had a problem with why the months field was 0-11 instead of 1-12 when the day field was 1-31). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ndiablo at diablonet.net Sun Nov 14 23:47:21 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <19991115054721.9157.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Actually, I was wondering something similar myself :) I've got two old VAXstation 2000's that i've been trying to netboot and neither one of them are cooperating much.. They've both got lance boards that check out alright with the ROM diags ("t 0"), link up fine (link light on transciever and hub on), but when I try and netboot NetBSD on them, I get strange %VMB-F-ERR type messages and it bombs out... I tried pulling the box apart for inspection; the board looks like its OK.. I found a jumper on the lance board and tried moving it to the other position, but it didnt do anything toward resolving the problem. I get the same error with two different VAXstation 2000 systems, both with lance boards that check out OK in ROM diags.. Is there something I should know about configuring these little buggers or have both the boards died in some strange way? I'd appreciate any pointers anybody could give me on them! Thanks, -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 14 22:57:03 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <004801bf2f1c$648830e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >Perhaps you could reduce the number of protocols a bit. It doesn't always >make a lot of difference, but you never know . . . I wish! Let's see, if I want the Mac to talk to VMS I've got to use AppleTalk, since DAVE (basically Samba for the Mac) and the Samba version of VMS don't mix. If I want to talk to RSX-11M I've got to use DECnet. Samba for Windows, since that's cheaper than getting NFS for Windows (why pay for something I wouldn't really use). Then most systems talk TCP/IP. In an ideal world every system would be running TCP/IP and using NFS to access remote disks, but it's not an ideal world. Good luck finding NFS at any price for the Mac (don't think you can get it for the Amiga anymore either), and I've spent the entire evening trying to get the VMS box in quesiton serving up NFS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 14 22:59:42 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions References: <991114203432.202004da@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <382F933D.C1EA1EBF@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >In addition, some of the code in RT-11 in the monitor and elsewhere > >rejects a date value with a year value of zero - meaning that 1972 is > >considered invalid by that code. > This was fixed in RT-11 5.7, it now consistently handles 1972 through > 2099, inclusive. Jerome Fine replies: I am confused here just a little bit. And I am not taking exception to what was done in V5.7 - in fact, I believe that the decisions which were made were correct. However, if "this was fixed in RT-11 V5.7" is what I think the word "fixed" means, then not allowing the command: "DATE 01-Jan-72" in all versions of RT-11 which did allow the command "DATE 01-Jan-73" means that these previous versions had a "bug". If a "bug" is the correct interpretation for not allowing a year of 1972, I wonder why the developers of RT-11 never corrected that aspect in all the years of RT-11 development? Personally, I always was confused that DIR accepted 1972 as a perfectly legal DATE to be displayed, but then RT-11 in general, regarded 1972 as invalid. I felt that aspect was a "bug" in itself, but nothing to complain about. There were too many other serious bugs to be fixed first. > >the DATE/TIME hardware clock on the third party board. Any idea > >how the 11/93 does the 1999 transition with the now Y2K compliant > >firmware update? > Look in the NL.MAC source code - the SETUP.SAV window range was > chosen identically: I stated my question incorrectly. I know how the DATE value is divided in the different 4 fields. What I was specifically wondering about was how DATE/TIME values in the 11/93 were handled before the firmware on the 11/93 was made Y2K compliant as what happens now - if indeed anything is different? I have seen references to the upgrade needed by the 11/93 firmware to make it Y2K compliant. What I am curious about is how the Y2K compliant firmware for the 11/93 handles the year and if that was any different before the 11/93 firmware was made Y2K compliant. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 14 23:09:35 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Netbooting Vaxen (was Re: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT) In-Reply-To: <19991115054721.9157.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991114210808.01b795e0@mcmanis.com> At 05:47 AM 11/15/99 +0000, you wrote: >Actually, I was wondering something similar myself :) I've got two old >VAXstation 2000's that i've been trying to netboot and neither one of >them are cooperating much.. They've both got lance boards that check >out alright with the ROM diags ("t 0"), link up fine (link light on >transciever and hub on), but when I try and netboot NetBSD on them, I >get strange %VMB-F-ERR type messages and it bombs out... This sounds like your MOP server isn't working as expected. Describe your whole layout, what system is running mopd? What does mopd say in diagnostic mode? What file are you using as the boot image? --Chuck From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Nov 14 23:31:48 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT References: Message-ID: <021801bf2f2a$b7645100$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, 15 November 1999 3:27 Subject: Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT > In an ideal world every system would be running TCP/IP and using NFS to > access remote disks, but it's not an ideal world. Good luck finding NFS at > any price for the Mac NFS clients for Win9x PC's at any sensible price (ie freeware or shareware) seem to be non-existent. I have Xlink on this machine, and it works well, but why there aren't a swag of free/shareware ones kicking around on the net is anyones guess. I don't recall seeing any free/shareware DOS/Win3x clients either. > .......I've spent the entire evening trying to get the VMS box in > quesiton serving up NFS. I run Multinet 3.2 Rev B NFS Server on a 6000 under VMS 6.0 here, and I have a VMS 6.2 Vaxstation that has UCX installed for tinkering. What is the problem you are having getting the NFS server to work? Regards Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Nov 14 23:51:51 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: A new arrival... (update) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991110232845.00697ae8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991114215151.069992f0@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:28 PM 11/10/1999 -0800, you wrote: >Greetings all; > >A new arrival joined us tonight, but it looks like he is suffering from a >very rough life. > >A HERO-1, who was fished out of the dumpster (EEK!) a couple of years ago, >and rattled around someone's desk ever since as a curiosity. Fortunately, >I have a friend who was able to rescue him from this rather unpleasant fate. Well... having managed to scare up some free (well, ok... uncommitted) time this weekend I was able to spend some time with the new kid in the house. Pulled his arm apart, and it turns out that the damage is not quite as severe as it appeared at first, but it is going to require some extensive work and probably replacement of the plastic shells. Had to replace the trim pots on the power supply board as they were broken (nearly off). Checked out all of the other boarsd and wiring, and it looked like was ok to go for first power-on and pwoer supply calibration. As per the manual proceedures, all of the system fuses were pulled and the charger (from the other HERO-1 in the collection) was switched on. The power supply/charger board calibrated without difficulty, and all voltages were stable within tolerances. So the charger was powered down and the fuses replaced. Deep breath and hit the switch... click... whine... "READY"!!! and "HERO 1.1" appeared on the display!!! Most cool! He passed the basic logic function and keyboard tests and the onboard clock/calendar were set and monitored for a time. This looks VERY promising! Probably all for this session... Extended logic tests and sensor calibrations come next. It has been a good weekend... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 00:21:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: NFS on VMS (was Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT) In-Reply-To: <021801bf2f2a$b7645100$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: Message-ID: >NFS clients for Win9x PC's at any sensible price (ie freeware or shareware) >seem to >be non-existent. I have Xlink on this machine, and it works well, but why >there >aren't a swag of free/shareware ones kicking around on the net is anyones >guess. >I don't recall seeing any free/shareware DOS/Win3x clients either. What is interesting on this note, is that there is a free client, and it seems to work fairly well, for BeOS. >> .......I've spent the entire evening trying to get the VMS box in >> quesiton serving up NFS. > >I run Multinet 3.2 Rev B NFS Server on a 6000 under VMS 6.0 here, >and I have a VMS 6.2 Vaxstation that has UCX installed for tinkering. >What is the problem you are having getting the NFS server to work? I think the problem is with the way I've got the Proxies set up. I can mount the drive on my OpenBSD box, but can't access it, can't even see it when I do a 'df' (that is a seriously wierd experience). I can't even mount it on my Linux box. I'm wondering how it will react to one of the Solaris boxes, but haven't booted one yet. I also can't figure out how to export a directory instead of an entire disk, it doesn't even look to be possible. I'd really like to export DKA200:[PCTMP], instead of DKA200: since that's what's served up via AppleTalk and Samba. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Nov 15 01:39:05 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: NFS on VMS (was Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT) References: Message-ID: <023801bf2f3c$7f015440$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, 15 November 1999 4:51 Subject: NFS on VMS (was Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT) > What is interesting on this note, is that there is a free client, and it > seems to work fairly well, for BeOS. Hmmm, interesting. > I think the problem is with the way I've got the Proxies set up. I can > mount the drive on my OpenBSD box, but can't access it, can't even see it > when I do a 'df' (that is a seriously wierd experience). Sounds more like permissions may be involved. This is not as simple under VMS as it is under Unix. (As you no doubt are aware) > I can't even mount it on my Linux box. > I'm wondering how it will react to one of the > Solaris boxes, but haven't booted one yet. Good benchmark. If it mounts from that it's obviously a server problem. > I also can't figure out how to export a directory instead of an entire > disk, it doesn't even look to be possible. I'd really like to export > DKA200:[PCTMP], instead of DKA200: since that's what's served up via > AppleTalk and Samba. It's possible. Which IP stack/NFS Server are you using, & what version of VMS? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 01:47:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <006f01bf2f3d$9cc17d60$0400c0a8@winbook> IIRC, it was the TCP/IP that didn't work well in the presence of DEC hardware back then. If we put a bridge between the DEC stuff and the SUN/APOLLO/HP... it seemed to work OK. There wasn't any NETWARE stuff there either, since that was still early in NOVELL's lifespan. I use it here because it lets me view the server as another drive or two and because I can't find a smaller shell/driver set for DOS. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT > >Sounds like the features were those needed to do WAN and you wanted >something lighter. Generally at that time I was viewing most LANs as >broken or nearly so. The only protocals I remember that worked were >DECnet, TCP/IP and BANYAN vines for routable and Netware for local >PC stuff. > > >my experience was non DEC hardware didn't work or was questionable. Though >the common Qbus NI (DEQNA) was known to be a poor performer in more ways >than one. Side effect of an old design even by late '87 standards. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 01:57:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <007e01bf2f3f$188556a0$0400c0a8@winbook> SAMBA is that NETBEUI-compatible protocol used by Windows for Workgroups, isn't it? I've heard a lot of mention of it but no details except that its DOS client is HUGE by comparison with the already large but purportedly MUCH smaller NOVELL IPX+NETX. (about 96K). I'm interested in this because I use a set of DOS engineering tools, since they suit me better and work faster than the Windows version, and are less buggy. I'd LOVE to use DOS 6.2x as opposed to Windows since it tolerates my video drivers. I would have to load the same DOS driver/shell under WIN9x in DOS mode, so the same restrictions apply. Yes, multiple versions of what should be the same driver set is what I remember about the ethernet hookups with various versions of DEC hardware. We didn't get around to the MAC's for a while because nobody believed we could make that work. Finally one guy threw up his hands and hooked it up with hardware he carried in from home. That made for some red faces among the senior types! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT >>Perhaps you could reduce the number of protocols a bit. It doesn't always >>make a lot of difference, but you never know . . . > >I wish! Let's see, if I want the Mac to talk to VMS I've got to use >AppleTalk, since DAVE (basically Samba for the Mac) and the Samba version >of VMS don't mix. If I want to talk to RSX-11M I've got to use DECnet. >Samba for Windows, since that's cheaper than getting NFS for Windows (why >pay for something I wouldn't really use). Then most systems talk TCP/IP. > >In an ideal world every system would be running TCP/IP and using NFS to >access remote disks, but it's not an ideal world. Good luck finding NFS at >any price for the Mac (don't think you can get it for the Amiga anymore >either), and I've spent the entire evening trying to get the VMS box in >quesiton serving up NFS. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 02:37:58 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: NFS on VMS (was Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT) In-Reply-To: <023801bf2f3c$7f015440$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: Message-ID: >> I think the problem is with the way I've got the Proxies set up. I can >> mount the drive on my OpenBSD box, but can't access it, can't even see it >> when I do a 'df' (that is a seriously wierd experience). > >Sounds more like permissions may be involved. This is not as simple under >VMS as it is under Unix. (As you no doubt are aware) A minute before pulling this in I finally managed to prove that. >> I also can't figure out how to export a directory instead of an entire >> disk, it doesn't even look to be possible. I'd really like to export >> DKA200:[PCTMP], instead of DKA200: since that's what's served up via >> AppleTalk and Samba. > >It's possible. Which IP stack/NFS Server are you using, & what version of >VMS? OpenVMS 7.2 w/TCPIP 5.0 off the Hobbyist CD's. I did finally figure out how to export DKA200:[PCTMP] What I find _VERY_ disturbing is what I did just now to get it to let me access the one disk! TCPIP> add proxy /gid=-2 /uid=-2 /host=* system TCPIP> As near as I can tell the above command gives _anyone_ accessing the disk via NFS _SYSTEM_ access. In a work, SCARY! TCPIP> show proxy VMS User_name Type User_ID Group_ID Host_name HEALYZH ONDCD 500 500 sunny, zeus, avanthar, psycho SYSTEM OND 0 0 AVANTHAR SYSTEM OND -2 -2 * TCPIP> I think my problem is, that there is something wrong with the above mapping. Well, that and you seem to need to have root mapped to SYSTEM to even be able to map it. Obviously the correct answer is I need to RTFM! I'll have to see about reading it tomorrow when I've some free time. On a positive note, things seem to be working better with DKA200:[PCTMP] mapped to "/dka200/pctmp"! So I'm just about there I think. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 02:52:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <007e01bf2f3f$188556a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >SAMBA is that NETBEUI-compatible protocol used by Windows for Workgroups, >isn't it? I've heard a lot of mention of it but no details except that its >DOS client is HUGE by comparison with the already large but purportedly MUCH >smaller NOVELL IPX+NETX. (about 96K). Basically Samba is Windows networking for non-Windows machines. At work, it's how the NT boxes access the data which for obvious reasons is kept on a real OS. Their are versions for most UNIX varients, the Amiga, OpenVMS, and others. Since it's basically a Windows thing, and I don't have to deal with it at work, I don't claim to know anything about it. I can do a basic Samba install and with a lot of cursing get a Win95/98/NT box to connect to it. If you want useful info on it, I'd recommend http://www.samba.org because I'm sure the info I just gave is both useless and questionable :^) BTW, I've found the real trick of working with Samba (on the Admin side) is remembering where the &)# @*^% smb.conf file on a particular machine is! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 15 06:54:54 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <991115075454.20200535@trailing-edge.com> >> >In addition, some of the code in RT-11 in the monitor and elsewhere >> >rejects a date value with a year value of zero - meaning that 1972 is >> >considered invalid by that code. >> This was fixed in RT-11 5.7, it now consistently handles 1972 through >> 2099, inclusive. >I am confused here just a little bit. And I am not taking exception to >what was done in V5.7 - in fact, I believe that the decisions which were >made were correct. However, if "this was fixed in RT-11 V5.7" is >what I think the word "fixed" means, then not allowing the command: >"DATE 01-Jan-72" >in all versions of RT-11 which did allow the command "DATE 01-Jan-73" >means that these previous versions had a "bug". If a "bug" is the correct >interpretation for not allowing a year of 1972, I wonder why the developers >of RT-11 never corrected that aspect in all the years of RT-11 development? It wasn't a very serious bug, unless you had files with datestamps from 1972 on them. In my experience, you're only likely to see pre-1974 datestamps in RT-11 if the files were imported from, say, an old DOS-11 tape. >> >the DATE/TIME hardware clock on the third party board. Any idea >> >how the 11/93 does the 1999 transition with the now Y2K compliant >> >firmware update? >> Look in the NL.MAC source code - the SETUP.SAV window range was >> chosen identically: >I stated my question incorrectly. I know how the DATE value is divided >in the different 4 fields. What I was specifically wondering about was how >DATE/TIME values in the 11/93 were handled before the firmware on the >11/93 was made Y2K compliant as what happens now - if indeed anything >is different? I have seen references to the upgrade needed by the 11/93 >firmware to make it Y2K compliant. What I am curious about is how the >Y2K compliant firmware for the 11/93 handles the year and if that was >any different before the 11/93 firmware was made Y2K compliant. Technically, the "11/93 TOY clock firmware fix" wasn't to fix a Y2K problem, it was there to fix a Y2000.164 problem. The actual problem occured after 29-Feb-2000, which the TOY clock firmware regarded (at boot time) as an illegal date and it set the TOY clock back to the factory default date (1-Jan-1980, if I'm not mistaken.) This was more of a boneheaded "2000 is not a leap year" mistake than anything else. Most (all?) other PDP-11 TOY clock modules don't attempt to do anything particularly "smart" (here, simple is good, because the "smart" code may do something "stupid" someday) with the date. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 15 07:14:53 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <991115081453.20200535@trailing-edge.com> >I suspect that the check should actually be made for the day field of >the date word being zero as being invalid... the year can be 00, the >month can be, too, but the day field should always be non-zero for >a valid date. (though I've always had a problem with why the months >field was 0-11 instead of 1-12 when the day field was 1-31). You might want to check your manuals again, Megan - for the past two decades that I've been doing RT-11 programming, the month field in the date word *does* run 1-12, not 0-11. (Actually, 0-11 would make more sense since you're almost always using it as an index into a table of month names...) And, of course, the CSI command lines generally expect RAD50 constants for months, not numbers, so you can generally type 037266 instead of JAN 023112 instead of FEB 050572 instead of MAR 004322 instead of APR 050601 instead of MAY 040726 instead of JUN 040724 instead of JUL 004617 instead of AUG 073630 instead of SEP 057114 instead of OCT 054756 instead of NOV 014713 instead of DEC Note that octal 004322 = decimal 2258. So some fixes are going to happen in the future with date parsing if one wants to be sure not to confuse 'APR' with the year '2258' :-). There are some other funny things with year parsing in CSI command lines that have been around since the mid 70's. In particular, most of the RT-11 utilities used to (that is, prior to 5.7) take as legal years 59 through 63 decimal. Convert these to octal, and you see they are represented as 73 through 77. This way, if you forgot the decimal point on a CSI command line in specifying a year in the range 73-77, the utility "fixed it up" for you with the "do what I mean" operator :-). It's a cute trick, but it doesn't work from 1980 through 1999 because 8 and 9 aren't legal octal digits... and it wasn't reimplemented for 4 digit years in the range of 2000-2007. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 15 08:21:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <19991115054721.9157.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: First you should have this up on PORT-VAX a NetBSD list as they are concerned with this. > get strange %VMB-F-ERR type messages and it bombs out... I tried Its saying VMB failed, likely because of wrong image to load or no image loaded. There is very little to configuting them other than to make sure they are plugged in right and the AUI/10B2 switch is in the correct position. Allison From Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com Mon Nov 15 09:20:41 1999 From: Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SSI-TSEA-331) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Corroding Core memory Message-ID: <91F077611570D211B0B40008C7244B330236C61C@LDMS6001> Hi, Has anyone ever experienenced corroding core memories ? I have some core memories stored in my garage which is relatively dry, but I don't like the risk that they get corroded. Any views or contributions are welcome. Thanks Regards, Henk Stegeman, IBM System/3 owner. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Nov 15 09:37:45 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: HP 7550 plotter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:28:38 -0500 (EST) John Ott wrote: > Mine always opens hard. There no electronics to open the drawer. I > haven't figured out the trick to get it to open every time. Well, after reading that, I went home with the intention of simply pulling harder on that paper drawer until it opened... Of course, it opened really easily this time! Thanks for the advice, anyway. My favourite feature of the HP 7550: little "gravity-operated" lids over the three interface connectors, to keep the dust out. > *********************************************************************** > * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * > * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * > * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * > * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * > * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * > *********************************************************************** -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jallain at databaseamerica.com Mon Nov 15 09:52:24 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Some More VAXish questions.. In-Reply-To: <3823DAA5.A304A90@carnagevisors.net> Message-ID: <001101bf2f81$69459e00$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Did anybody reply to this question? It seems like an important one. Since I have some resources at home (Two, count em, Two!!! VAX system manuals) I think I'll try looking in to this one. (Can't find direct reply eMail address from this letter, hence using list). John.A -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of benjamin Gardiner Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 2:37 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Some More VAXish questions.. Well, thanks to all those who replied last time. I think I may be getting somewhare with the vax. cant get the tape drive or deqna cards working, (their leds tell me something is wrong) but that is not what I am going to be asking about. When I try and boot the vax, I get Loading system software, 2..1..0.. %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file DUDRIVER.EXE ?06 HLT INST PC = 0000692B now I can get into the sysboot utility, have no idea what to do here. Is there a way I can get around this missing file, is the some command at the chevrons (>>>) or the sysboot> that I can use to get round this? Thanks Benjamin -- www.carnagevisors.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Nov 15 09:54:20 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: OT: Effective Speed of 10BaseT Message-ID: <19991115155420.9750.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Schoedel wrote: > >Those numbers are on a par with old MVIIs with DEQNAs and MV2000s (ca1988). > > Hey! What's wrong with DEQNAs and MV2000s? One problem I know about is that they can't handle as much network saturation as other equipment of the same vintage. At OSU, c. mid-1980s, a friend of mine calculated the minimum back-to-back packet time that their Pyramids could fling packets onto the network at. The idea was to raise network throughput by reducing inter-packet time since most of the traffic was NFS and telnet, not heavy, sustained, long packet traffic, IIRC. When the modifictations to the Pyramid's network driver were implemented, the lone MicroVAX-II crashed. The DEC interface apparently could handle passing a packet to the bus while receiving a new packet from the wire, but when the next packet was coming in and the first packet wasn't fully off the card, the DEQNA raised some sort of error which caused a kernel panic. In other words, there was only room on the card for one unprocessed packet, not two. The real problem was that when that extra packet came along, the DEQNA should have ignored it, forcing a later retry, not lock up the Qbus. Software wouldn't have fixed this problem. I do not know why DEC obsoleted the DEQNA in favor of the DELQA. All I have is a DEQNA myself and it's so new (to me), I haven't even plugged it in. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From truthanl at oclc.org Mon Nov 15 09:59:31 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: HP 7550 plotter Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADE4@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> -----Original Message----- From: John Honniball [mailto:John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 10:38 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: HP 7550 plotter You wrote:...My favourite feature of the HP 7550: little "gravity-operated" lids over the three interface connectors, to keep the dust out. My favorite feature is writing speed. We have one hooked to a network analyser, ploting color traces of cell tower antenna impedances. Although the 7550 is not easilly portable, niether is the Network Analyser. But you have many colors to discern different antennae feedlines and the completed plots expedite proof of performance reports. Storing traces to diskette might be an option, but it's still slower printing to color inkjet back at the office. You can also more quickly mark up the plots to keep them straight, rather than having to give each file a descriptive filename on diskette. Larry Truthan > *********************************************************************** > * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * > * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * > * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * > * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * > * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * > *********************************************************************** -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 15 10:35:14 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Corroding Core memory Message-ID: <0.9d7e4078.25619042@aol.com> In a message dated 11/15/99 7:28:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, Henk.J.Stegeman@is.shell.com writes: > > I have some core memories stored in my garage which is relatively > dry, but I don't like the risk that they get corroded. > Put them in an antistatic bag with a small bag of silica gel inside the bag. Pack in a box with more silica gel. Silica gel is often reusable. Bake it in the oven to drive the moisture out. This will work well unless the boards actually get wet. Paxton From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Nov 15 11:04:36 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <8025682A.005DFA9A.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> 12. IBM PS/2 model 70 portable (joke) seems to be a 386 with 12 meg HD. >> Pretty heavy for a portable and only runs with a cord plugged into the wall. > > ah yes, the P70. gas plasma display so that's why it can only run on ac > power. make sure your floppy drive works, there was an ECA about that. they > seem to sell pretty good around this area, although i have spotted one in a > computer junk store for $35, i'm holding off for cheaper. When it was new, it > sold for over $7k. $7k? Ouch!! I passed one up a couple of weeks ago. Seller was asking 95 pounds, was prepared to sell for 80, but no less - she claimed the Windows 95 installation on the hard drive was worth that. I told her just what I would do if I got a machine with Windows 95 on it... (hint: it involves a disk partitioning tool and a Linux distribution kit) Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Nov 15 11:13:26 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... Message-ID: <8025682A.005F2547.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > I stepped outside and everything but the steering wheel & seat were removed > from my truck... including the contents of the glove compartment & other > places of "personal" storage. > > [[Editor's note - I'm not just picking on Canadian Customs - Years ago > (when I was an infant, so that's ~30 years ago) my parents were coming back > into the US when US customs stopped them, tore the car apart *including the > seats*. When they were all done, they said "You can go. You have 15 minutes > to be out of the building." *thankfully* my dad is one hell of a mechanic > and had a full toolset with him and could reinstall the seats in a few > minutes - despite the fact the tools were spread in a 10 foot radius around > the car. No joke.]] > > Customs can be your friend, or they can be the most sadistic bastards > you've ever known. Be nice to them even if they're assholes - or you'll > regret it if you do any border crossing at all. I've never had it that bad. The worst time for me was at Strasbourg, crossing from Germany to France (whatever happened to European free trade?) in 1995. Bored customs officer + loaded estate car (station wagon) with GB plates = obvious result. They didn't take the computer junk out of the car but insisted on going through all my suitcases and asking silly questions - I speak very little French or German and they spoke even less English, so how they expected to understand my replies I am not sure. Example of silly question: they find a (German) hymn book (FWIW I also collect hymn books) and ask if I am a priest, and try to persuade me to sing something from it. I eventually got away when they asked me if I was a spy, and I said yes... >>I only ever got lucky once and got a girl I use to go to school with... wish >>I had a Picasso in the car that day :-( > > You can *afford* a Picasso? You must have one hell of a computer collection!!! > ;-) No, he imports them for rich clients who pay virtually no commission. If he had had one when he met his friend he could have pocketed the import duty and made a profit for once ... ;-) Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Nov 15 12:53:16 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: NFS on VMS (was Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You should be able to export a logical ("dka200_pctmp" = dka200:[pctmp]) and get your access control that way. On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I also can't figure out how to export a directory instead of an entire > disk, it doesn't even look to be possible. I'd really like to export > DKA200:[PCTMP], instead of DKA200: since that's what's served up via > AppleTalk and Samba. > > Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 13:37:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: NFS on VMS (was Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >You should be able to export a logical ("dka200_pctmp" = dka200:[pctmp]) >and get your access control that way. That was the way I expected it to work, but it didn't. I think the following is the correct syntax: TCPIP> map "/dka200" dka200: TCPIP> add export "/dka200/pctmp" I did some testing on the following proxy statement this morning, and it seems that you need both this proxy, and the user proxy to get stuff to work. The key thing is that the following doesn't appear to give everyone SYSTEM privleges as I was afraid it might. Still makes me nervous, and I still need to do some research on it. TCPIP> add proxy /gid=-2 /uid=-2 /host=* system TCPIP> Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Nov 15 14:06:11 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Looking for DEC card Reader: CR11 or CM11 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991115120611.00b84eb0@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: I'm interested in finding a card reader for my pdp-11 machines. The CR11 and CM11 models are what I'm looking for - they're a desktop variety that would work nicely with my current machines. Anyone out there have one they will part with? Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 15 13:51:07 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: PDP-15 is running... but has 8 lives left! Message-ID: <001101bf2fa2$c26a0a40$036465cc@default> I thought cats only had 9 lives.... When I picked up this mini I was told it ran on 220 volts.. It has 3 twist in 220Volt plugs on it.... Well, I was just about to hook it up to 220 when I thought *maybe* I should double check the PSU jumpers. Well,,, contrary to what everyone thought.... the thing was configured for 110 Volts... 1 PDP saved! I wired it all up (I have NEVER used an 18 bit mini)... applied power and no lights... (one little breaker was on off.. talk about scarey and I was smelling around for smoke). I flipped the breaker and..... one happy PDP-15 Selected "MO", read some core, wrote some back... then went for the ultimate test....... Grabbed a paper tape (MAINDEC) hit STOP,RESET,READIN... the paper tape read in, and talk about "blinky lights" (I think I'll just wheel this mini to my living room window and run a looping test tape every day til XMAS).... The MAINDEC program ran.. The PDP-15 was Plug and Play. [no fun..not even a bad chip/solder contact to find :-( ] I don't know how to load FOCAL or even if it can be run from paper tape (stand alone). I do have a drum memory unit and mag tape but don't want to hook them up as I barely know how to operate what I have right now... (Took 20 minutes to go through some manuals to tell me how to load in the MAINDEC...). This is one weird mini. I have "Disk Monitor" and pile of other software, FOCAL, BASIC, FORTRAN, 8-TRAN, MACRO, etc... I don't know how to load any of these and there are just too many manuals to go through right now. If anyone here knows: A) Can FOCAL be run stand alone on the PDP-15.. if so how? and how do I load it? B) What atre these "Paper Tape System" tapes for? I have a teletype hooked up to it so I am hoping someone here can save me a lot of reading.... john From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 15 13:54:12 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: PDP 8I up and running but.... Message-ID: <001401bf2fa3$305959c0$036465cc@default> The 8I is up and running and the paper tape is now going.. I'll try FOCAL and BASIC before playing with OS/8... but. What is (these are on paper tape): 1) DEC X-8 (large paper tape.. I think more than 1) 2) PT/8 ???? (Many tapes... but I have no idea what it is) From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Nov 15 15:15:47 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but References: Message-ID: <38307803.9DE0B8AF@olf.com> Hi, Just curious. What motivates someone to collect old minis and mainframes??? I can see it being nice to look at for a while, but something as big as a mini is very cumbersome to have around the house (let alone an apartment). And what pratical use does it serve running it at home anyway??? I see a lot of posts about collectors having paper tapes, reels, card readers, etc, but how often does one really use it or even turn it on. I would imagine that it probably sets idle for about 95-99% of the time and most people would turn on a PC instead. I have a SUN IPX and a PC. I rarely turn the SUN on, but I keep it around to do some practical UNIX programming on a real UNIX box instead of linux, freebsd, etc. As I said, I dont want to start a flame war or anything, just curious thats all...... Ram PS: If I started to collect stuff like that, my wife will throw me out of the house. She already complains about my transputer equipment... -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/f23cb23f/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 15:26:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <38307803.9DE0B8AF@olf.com> References: Message-ID: >Just curious. What motivates someone to collect old minis and >mainframes??? I can see it being nice to look at for a while, but >something as big as a mini is very cumbersome to have around the house >(let alone an apartment). And what pratical use does it serve running it >at home anyway??? I see a lot of posts about collectors having paper >tapes, reels, card readers, etc, but how often does one really use it or >even turn it on. I would imagine that it probably sets idle for about >95-99% of the time and most people would turn on a PC instead. I have a >SUN IPX and a PC. I rarely turn the SUN on, but I keep it around to do >some practical UNIX programming on a real UNIX box instead of linux, >freebsd, etc. As I said, I dont want to start a flame war or anything, >just curious thats all...... > >Ram > >PS: If I started to collect stuff like that, my wife will throw me out of >the house. She already complains about my transputer equipment... The best answer is probably a question, why do you collect Transputer equipment? The main reason I'm collecting Mini's is to be able to play with their Operating Systems. Besides I'm actually getting my OpenVMS cluster set up as a fileserver for my other systems. The hardware is also fun to work with. Some people spend a lot of thier time on the Computer Games, me I find Mini Computers and their OS's to be the ultimate in computer games. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 15:41:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <001a01bf2fb2$3b0794e0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've often wondered about this myself. The answer lies in the word "collect" which implies, in this case, INTENTIONAL accumulation of what most folks would consider junk, in order to play with it, fiddle with it, admire it, fantasize about how things might have been if you'd had one back when they were of some value, etc. I don't do any of those things. I am just an accumulator, and once in a while, I even pass up a system, wholly functional just because I don't want equipment from that manufacturer. IBM and DEC are two such, and the latter, at least, is really popular among collectors. Both have in common that they maximized the terabucks per femptoflop, continuing to use old costly technology where newer cheaper technology would have been better. Hindsight's always 20/20, they say, but I think it differs from one person to the next. Looking back, most collectors are glad the systems they collect were. As for me, I'm just glad they're gone. Of course, I do have my niche . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ram Meenakshisundaram To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 2:18 PM Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Hi, Just curious. What motivates someone to collect old minis and mainframes??? I can see it being nice to look at for a while, but something as big as a mini is very cumbersome to have around the house (let alone an apartment). And what pratical use does it serve running it at home anyway??? I see a lot of posts about collectors having paper tapes, reels, card readers, etc, but how often does one really use it or even turn it on. I would imagine that it probably sets idle for about 95-99% of the time and most people would turn on a PC instead. I have a SUN IPX and a PC. I rarely turn the SUN on, but I keep it around to do some practical UNIX programming on a real UNIX box instead of linux, freebsd, etc. As I said, I dont want to start a flame war or anything, just curious thats all...... Ram PS: If I started to collect stuff like that, my wife will throw me out of the house. She already complains about my transputer equipment... -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/880cf6b6/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 15:44:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <002901bf2fb2$8e93d380$0400c0a8@winbook> One more thing . . . about those wives . . . I've done pretty well without 'em and prefer it that way, having tried it both ways. The old computer hardware's cheaper, easier to live with, and more forgiving. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ram Meenakshisundaram To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 2:18 PM Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Hi, Just curious. What motivates someone to collect old minis and mainframes??? I can see it being nice to look at for a while, but something as big as a mini is very cumbersome to have around the house (let alone an apartment). And what pratical use does it serve running it at home anyway??? I see a lot of posts about collectors having paper tapes, reels, card readers, etc, but how often does one really use it or even turn it on. I would imagine that it probably sets idle for about 95-99% of the time and most people would turn on a PC instead. I have a SUN IPX and a PC. I rarely turn the SUN on, but I keep it around to do some practical UNIX programming on a real UNIX box instead of linux, freebsd, etc. As I said, I dont want to start a flame war or anything, just curious thats all...... Ram PS: If I started to collect stuff like that, my wife will throw me out of the house. She already complains about my transputer equipment... -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/84feac9b/attachment.html From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Nov 15 15:42:05 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but References: Message-ID: <38307E2D.24DCE467@olf.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > The best answer is probably a question, why do you collect Transputer > equipment? > Well, the reason why I collect transputer equipment is to learn practical parallel processing. I always had an ambition to build a parallel computer and transputers makes that happen. The performance isnt what one would expect. It is never going to be a Cray or a parallel Alpha machine, but the technology hasnt changed all that much. It is a TRUE parallel processing machine (that is designed for parallel processing), not like the NOWs (Network of Workstation) that are common these days. And anything I do on a transputer will be directly applicable to the worlds most powerful parallel machines. I can design code on my transputer and run it on any parallel processor in the world, if I have access to it that is, and it will run without a problem as long as I use MPI, PVM, etc. > The main reason I'm collecting Mini's is to be able to play with their > Operating Systems. Besides I'm actually getting my OpenVMS cluster set up > as a fileserver for my other systems. The hardware is also fun to work > with. Some people spend a lot of thier time on the Computer Games, me I > find Mini Computers and their OS's to be the ultimate in computer games. > I dont mind playing with old equipment. And you are right, it is really fun. But, who has all that space and the time to play with multiple machines like that.... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/1ef4b75b/attachment.html From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 15 15:42:07 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <0.5b23d43a.2561d82f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/15/99 1:16:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, rmeenaks@olf.com writes: > And what > pratical use does it serve running it at home anyway??? They make great heaters. I won't turn on the house heat till late December. Paxton Portland, Oregon From g at kurico.com Mon Nov 15 15:48:51 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <38307803.9DE0B8AF@olf.com> Message-ID: > Just curious. What motivates someone to collect old minis and > mainframes??? I can see it being nice to look at for a while, but > something as big as a mini is very cumbersome to have around the house > (let alone an apartment). And what pratical use does it serve running > it at home anyway??? I see a lot of posts about collectors having > paper tapes, reels, card readers, etc, but how often does one really > use it or even turn it on. I would imagine that it probably sets idle > for about 95-99% of the time and most people would turn on a PC > instead. [SNIP] Practical use? Collecting? People who collect stamps don't usually use their stamps to send mail with. People who collect antique cars don't usually use the cars in the collection as daily drivers. Collecting is not usually associated with "Practical Use". You collect because your interested. Exactly how and why your interest lies varies amongst different people. I don't see any difference between collecting minis or collecting hand helds (motivation wise anyway). They pique your interest enough for you to deal with them. George From bill at chipware.com Mon Nov 15 16:03:29 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <001b01bf2fb5$3faf1c90$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > One more thing . . . about those wives . . . I've done > pretty well without 'em and prefer it that way, having > tried it both ways. > > The old computer hardware's cheaper, easier to live > with, and more forgiving. Yes, but not as much fun in bed. (Sorry, couldn't resist) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 16:08:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <000a01bf2fb5$f149e0c0$0400c0a8@winbook> This is actually quite realistic! I was once given an IBM690 with tons of equipment associated with it, the most interesting feature of which was that in addition to doing a little computing on compilers of the generation on which I did my first work, it would keep my horses (since the barn was the place where I had the 3-phase power) nice and warm all winter. More recently I had an opportunity to snag a complete 9370 setup with nearly a TB of (IPI ... yechhh!) disk farm. I would have preferred they blow it along with the rest of the building, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Innfogra@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Dont want to start a flame war here but >In a message dated 11/15/99 1:16:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, >rmeenaks@olf.com writes: > >> And what >> pratical use does it serve running it at home anyway??? > >They make great heaters. I won't turn on the house heat till late December. > >Paxton >Portland, Oregon From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 16:11:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <38307E2D.24DCE467@olf.com> References: Message-ID: >I dont mind playing with old equipment. And you are right, it is really >fun. But, who has all that space and the time to play with multiple >machines like that.... Umm, it would appear that a good percentage of us on this list do :^) Of course I've got to admit that in the last couple years I've kind of slacked off to the point that I'm mainly playing with PDP's and OpenVMS boxes. With a Mac and a couple Unix boxes being my primary 'general use' systems. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Nov 15 16:31:31 1999 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <012701bf2fb9$2aea0be0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 10:10 AM Subject: Re: New Finds >>> 12. IBM PS/2 model 70 portable (joke) seems to be a 386 with 12 meg HD. >>> Pretty heavy for a portable and only runs with a cord plugged into the wall. >> >> ah yes, the P70. gas plasma display so that's why it can only run on ac >> power. make sure your floppy drive works, there was an ECA about that. they >> seem to sell pretty good around this area, although i have spotted one in a >> computer junk store for $35, i'm holding off for cheaper. When it was new, it >> sold for over $7k. > >$7k? Ouch!! > >I passed one up a couple of weeks ago. Seller was asking 95 pounds, was >prepared to sell for 80, but no less - she claimed the Windows 95 installation >on the hard drive was worth that. I told her just what I would do if I got a >machine with Windows 95 on it... (hint: it involves a disk partitioning tool and >a Linux distribution kit) > >Philip. > > Are you sure this was a P70 (which usually shipped with 386s) and not a P75 (which usually shipped with 486 or better processors)? I tried a Win '95 installation on my 4MB RAM/120 MB HD/386 P70, and from "power on" to "ready to use" took over two minutes. Trying to open any windows or run any applications caused a frenzy of drive activity (reading and writing to the swapfile, I suspect). I can't imagine anyone actually using a P70 running Win '95. Running Windows 3.11 though, they were decent portables for their time - nice crisp display, good keyboard. Very capable "get some work done in your hotel room" computers. I know several people who have added MCA SCSI cards to the internal expansion slot, and use their P70s as portable SCSI device testers. Cheers, Mark. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 15 16:20:42 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Samba In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 15, 1999 0:52:22 am" Message-ID: <199911152233.RAA18039@pechter.dyndns.org> > >SAMBA is that NETBEUI-compatible protocol used by Windows for Workgroups, > >isn't it? I've heard a lot of mention of it but no details except that its > >DOS client is HUGE by comparison with the already large but purportedly MUCH > >smaller NOVELL IPX+NETX. (about 96K). > Actually, the dos client works with the MS Dos and Windows IP stacks and it's netbios over TCP/IP. It's the IP stack that's the real issue. IPX and NETX are real small. Try loading LSL, IPXODI, and the VLMs and it is more like the microsoft stuff in size 8-(. > > BTW, I've found the real trick of working with Samba (on the Admin side) is > remembering where the &)# @*^% smb.conf file on a particular machine is! > > Zane Ain't it the truth... Redid the servers this weekend with 2.6 of Samba. Now I've got to try to do the domain thing and login scripts for it. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 15 16:23:56 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: <007e01bf2f3f$188556a0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 15, 1999 0:57:38 am" Message-ID: <199911152237.RAA18052@pechter.dyndns.org> > >In an ideal world every system would be running TCP/IP and using NFS to > >access remote disks, but it's not an ideal world. Good luck finding NFS at > >any price for the Mac (don't think you can get it for the Amiga anymore > >either), and I've spent the entire evening trying to get the VMS box in > >quesiton serving up NFS. > > > > Zane > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ I believe there's a shareware Mac NFS... I just use Netatalk and Samba with the FreeBSD box here. I don't know what to do when I get the Vax up with OpenVMS. Probably Samba and Netatalk with a common directory area on the FreeBSD box. --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 15 16:39:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <38307803.9DE0B8AF@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 15, 99 04:15:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2404 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/8315843b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 15 16:47:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:32 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <38307E2D.24DCE467@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Nov 15, 99 04:42:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2107 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/b5fe0c3b/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 17:23:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <000b01bf2fc0$674d2ac0$0400c0a8@winbook> When you get to my stage of life, they're just as much fun in bed . . . trust me . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Dont want to start a flame war here but >> One more thing . . . about those wives . . . I've done >> pretty well without 'em and prefer it that way, having >> tried it both ways. >> >> The old computer hardware's cheaper, easier to live >> with, and more forgiving. > >Yes, but not as much fun in bed. (Sorry, couldn't resist) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 17:22:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Samba Message-ID: <000801bf2fc0$526a7cc0$0400c0a8@winbook> That's what I was led to believe also, but it's not true. Even though the ODI driver set is quite a bit bigger than the earlier IPX.com, for every card I've tried out, my threshhold is the required transient area (useable low memory) under DOS 3.22 or 6.22, with all my SCSI drivers, etc, (I can leave out the CDROM stuff) loaded, so I can still use my DOS-based OrCAD for schematic capture, digital simulation, and PCB routing. The PCB router is the crux, since it won't do everything if there's not 600+ KB of available low memory. Not even all the ODI drivers will leave enough space for that. A few of the cards I use will do it though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 3:38 PM Subject: Samba >> >SAMBA is that NETBEUI-compatible protocol used by Windows for Workgroups, >> >isn't it? I've heard a lot of mention of it but no details except that its >> >DOS client is HUGE by comparison with the already large but purportedly MUCH >> >smaller NOVELL IPX+NETX. (about 96K). >> >Actually, the dos client works with the MS Dos and Windows IP stacks >and it's netbios over TCP/IP. It's the IP stack that's the real issue. >IPX and NETX are real small. Try loading LSL, IPXODI, and the VLMs and >it is more like the microsoft stuff in size 8-(. > >> >> BTW, I've found the real trick of working with Samba (on the Admin side) is >> remembering where the &)# @*^% smb.conf file on a particular machine is! >> >> Zane > >Ain't it the truth... Redid the servers this weekend with 2.6 of Samba. >Now I've got to try to do the domain thing and login scripts for it. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From max82 at surfree.com Mon Nov 15 17:38:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <000b01bf2fc0$674d2ac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > When you get to my stage of life, they're just as much fun in bed . . . > trust me . . . Come on, stop disappointing those who still have their lives ahead of them (points at self ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 15 17:47:12 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but References: <38307803.9DE0B8AF@olf.com> Message-ID: <99111518571501.13251@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 15 Nov 1999, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >Just curious. What motivates someone to collect old minis and mainframes??? >I can see it being nice to look at for a while, but something as big as a mini is >very cumbersome to have around the house (let alone an apartment). And what >pratical use does it serve running it at home anyway??? I see a lot of posts >about collectors having paper tapes, reels, card readers, etc, but how often does >one really use it or even turn it on. I would imagine that it probably sets idle >for about 95-99% of the time and most people would turn on a PC instead. I have a >SUN IPX and a PC. I rarely turn the SUN on, but I keep it around to do some >practical UNIX programming on a real UNIX box instead of linux, freebsd, etc. As >I said, I dont want to start a flame war or anything, just curious thats >all...... Lots of reasons. For one, I never use PC hardware. For anything. My "work" machines at home are all Sun and SGI systems. My "recreational" systems are various types of machines, including so-called "classic" computers. I'm a programmer by trade. I write networking applications in C for Unix machines. Every now & then, I'll fire up a pdp11 with 248kb of RAM and just write fun stuff. With the limitations in performance (for some pdp11 systems anyway, others are quite fast) and memory address space, it really helps me hone my programming skills in the direction of absolute code efficiency. In this day of unlimited RAM and practically unlimited CPU power, too many programmers are lazy and write fat, bloated, slow code. Running some more limited systems (limited in those ways, anyway) helps me keep my programming skills in shape. And the number one most important reason: they're FUN. I LIKE dicking with these systems. They have personality. Not like some crappy plastic three-months-til-obsolescence commercialized whiz-bang PeeCee, but a real, honest, well-designed, well-built computer from the days when proper engineering was the motivating factor in the computer industry...not just maximization of profit and "putting one over" on the customer base. >PS: If I started to collect stuff like that, my wife will throw me out of the >house. She already complains about my transputer equipment... ...well there's no "nice" way to say this, so I apologize in advance for sounding like an asshole. While I realize that compromise is a part of any relationship, I don't think I'd ever be able to spend time with someone who would tell me what hobbies I can or cannot have, or what things I can or cannot own. Perhaps, as a single man, my views are somewhat naive and idealistic, but that's just my opinion. I do apologize if it sounds like I'm slamming your wife...I'm sure she's a wonderful person...but for me, I grew up hacking computers. I'm not giving that up for *anything*...or anyone. Indeed, it's all I have, and it's all I am. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 15 17:33:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <001b01bf2fb5$3faf1c90$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Nov 15, 99 05:03:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/371abe89/attachment.ksh From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Mon Nov 15 18:18:45 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Samba In-Reply-To: <199911152233.RAA18039@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > > >SAMBA is that NETBEUI-compatible protocol used by Windows for Workgroups, > > >isn't it? I've heard a lot of mention of it but no details except that its > > >DOS client is HUGE by comparison with the already large but purportedly MUCH > > >smaller NOVELL IPX+NETX. (about 96K). > > > Actually, the dos client works with the MS Dos and Windows IP stacks > and it's netbios over TCP/IP. It's the IP stack that's the real issue. > IPX and NETX are real small. Try loading LSL, IPXODI, and the VLMs and > it is more like the microsoft stuff in size 8-(. > > > > > BTW, I've found the real trick of working with Samba (on the Admin side) is > > remembering where the &)# @*^% smb.conf file on a particular machine is! There's nothing like a newly updated locate database... From mbg at world.std.com Mon Nov 15 18:23:19 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions References: <991114203432.202004da@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199911160023.TAA00712@world.std.com> >I am confused here just a little bit. And I am not taking exception to >what was done in V5.7 - in fact, I believe that the decisions which were >made were correct. However, if "this was fixed in RT-11 V5.7" is what I >think the word "fixed" means, then not allowing the command: "DATE >01-Jan-72" in all versions of RT-11 which did allow the command "DATE >01-Jan-73" means that these previous versions had a "bug". I sure consider it a bug... and the fact that it was fixed in V5.7 proves it... >If a "bug" is the correct interpretation for not allowing a year of 1972, >I wonder why the developers of RT-11 never corrected that aspect in all >the years of RT-11 development? I can tell you that I never knew it was there as a problem until you commented on it the other day. If I had known back when working on RT for DEC, I would have fixed it immediately. I suspect that what happened was something like this: 1) The original gods of RT, developing for an OS to be released for use in 1972, developed a date command which worked properly for 1972 and as far into the future as they figured it would be around. 2) At some point after the beginning of the RT epoch (certainly later than the beginning of 1973), someone was responding to a bug report about the date command doing something wrong with an invalid date, so it was decided to add some code to validate the date word in the RMON fixed offset area before attempting to report it. 3) The 'fix' made was to check the year field and reject it if it was zero. Being after 1972, and the PIP /L option working just fine, it was decided the fix was good. 4) Since time doesn't go backward, newer developers never encountered the bug... >Personally, I always was confused that DIR accepted 1972 as a perfectly >legal DATE to be displayed, but then RT-11 in general, regarded 1972 as >invalid. I felt that aspect was a "bug" in itself, but nothing to >complain about. There were too many other serious bugs to be fixed >first. Too many other?! Makes it sound like we should have distributed Raid with the kit... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 18:52:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <001201bf2fcc$dc311020$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, back about 25 years ago or so, when I was into robotics and things like that, a colleague was telling his wife that "once we get the skin absorbtiveness squared away so we don't end up with lipstick on our drawers, we're going to phase you biological units out completely . . ." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Dont want to start a flame war here but >> >> > One more thing . . . about those wives . . . I've done >> > pretty well without 'em and prefer it that way, having >> > tried it both ways. >> > >> > The old computer hardware's cheaper, easier to live >> > with, and more forgiving. >> >> Yes, but not as much fun in bed. (Sorry, couldn't resist) > >Well, each to his own, I suppose :-) > >-tony (who has some very odd hardware in his bedroom) From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Mon Nov 15 19:21:54 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Fireproofing questions Message-ID: Hi all, I just scored a 6-foot metal, 2-door cabinet that is marked as fireproof. I'd like to think it'd be a great place to store classic media, but it's not entirely heat-proof. To test it, I placed a hot clothes iron on the outer wall and measured the temperature/rate of climb on the inner wall, as well as the ambient temperature inside the cabinet. It was enough that, even with a comparatively small heat source (well, to a garage fire, anyway), anything within a few inches of the inner wall would have most definitely been damaged, and possibly items close to the center after a half-hour of exposure to the heat source. My question is this: is there something anyone could recommend that would make a good lining for the inner walls of the cabinet to insulate it from heat? Something that doesn't take up too much room (would kind of defeat the purpose of having a cabinet to store things in) and would protect the interior contents in case of a small fire. I don't think there's anything between the inner and outer walls besides air, though I'm not certain. Perhaps I could squirt some of that expanding foam in there or something? Cheers, Aaron From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 15 19:14:53 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Effective Speed of 10BaseT In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: Effective Speed of 10BaseT" (Nov 15, 0:52) References: Message-ID: <9911160114.ZM1012@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 15, 0:52, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Basically Samba is Windows networking for non-Windows machines. At work, > it's how the NT boxes access the data which for obvious reasons is kept on > a real OS. Their are versions for most UNIX varients, the Amiga, OpenVMS, > and others. Since it's basically a Windows thing, and I don't have to deal > with it at work, I don't claim to know anything about it. I can do a basic > Samba install and with a lot of cursing get a Win95/98/NT box to connect to > it. > > If you want useful info on it, I'd recommend http://www.samba.org because > I'm sure the info I just gave is both useless and questionable :^) Oh, I think (since I have to look after Samba stuff under similar circumstances) it's quite accurate. You just have to remember that the cursing is, apparently, mandatory. > BTW, I've found the real trick of working with Samba (on the Admin side) is > remembering where the &)# @*^% smb.conf file on a particular machine is! That too :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 15 20:00:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Fireproofing questions Message-ID: <000e01bf2fd6$61b630a0$0400c0a8@winbook> The cabinet you obtained may indeed be fireproof. That means that you can safely store your irreplaceable documents, e.g. your rich uncle's will, your birth certificate, your early computer schematics and service documents, and rely on their remaining intact while the car and remainder of your garage go up in flames. However, I would not recommend it for irreplaceable media which cannot tolerate high temperature. Fireproof generally means that fire on the outside will stay on the outside, while fire on the inside will, likewise, stay on the inside. Clearly there's cause for wanting one or both in many cases. If you want safe, fireproof storage in the sense that your mag media and other thermally sensitive materials will survive, I'd recommend a welded aluminum cabinet which you bury in your back yard with access from the top, perhaps covered by a cinder paving block or even a pallet or two with a utility shed over the top. You could park your lawnmower over it with little ill effect. Even a fire in the gasoline or paint you store there won't damage the contents of the vault. Its contents should remain both cool and dry, and you can have access whenever the situation demands. It might be a good idea to store units of mag media in zip-loc freezer bags with some form of dessicant so as to avoid condensation of water which will lead to mold or mildew. Such an arrangement would be ideal for off-site secure storage of backups. The most convenient such application, using the area under a utility shed, that I've seen was a small chest freezer. So long as the opening is above the worst-case water line, a freezer or old refrigerator might work well. It's just that they tend to rust. It's very dry most of the time here in Colorado. A kitchen appliance might not work so well in Florida or elsewhere where the water table is shallow and the mineral content of the water is high. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 6:24 PM Subject: Fireproofing questions >Hi all, > >I just scored a 6-foot metal, 2-door cabinet that is marked as fireproof. >I'd like to think it'd be a great place to store classic media, but it's >not entirely heat-proof. To test it, I placed a hot clothes iron on the >outer wall and measured the temperature/rate of climb on the inner wall, >as well as the ambient temperature inside the cabinet. It was enough that, >even with a comparatively small heat source (well, to a garage fire, >anyway), anything within a few inches of the inner wall would have most >definitely been damaged, and possibly items close to the center after a >half-hour of exposure to the heat source. > >My question is this: is there something anyone could recommend that would >make a good lining for the inner walls of the cabinet to insulate it from >heat? Something that doesn't take up too much room (would kind of defeat >the purpose of having a cabinet to store things in) and would protect the >interior contents in case of a small fire. I don't think there's anything >between the inner and outer walls besides air, though I'm not certain. >Perhaps I could squirt some of that expanding foam in there or something? > >Cheers, > >Aaron > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 15 19:55:11 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Just found some PDP-4 paper tape software Message-ID: <00d801bf2fd5$9e67b740$036465cc@default> It's called "Contest - II - 8K" 7/30/63. There are some more PDP-4 tapes I have seen (just digging them out). Anyone have any idea what this is? john From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 15 20:42:25 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Just found some PDP-4 paper tape software In-Reply-To: <00d801bf2fd5$9e67b740$036465cc@default> (dylanb@sympatico.ca) References: <00d801bf2fd5$9e67b740$036465cc@default> Message-ID: <19991116024225.17691.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It's called "Contest - II - 8K" 7/30/63. > > There are some more PDP-4 tapes I have seen (just digging them out). Anyone > have any idea what this is? I have no clue what that specific program is, but the PDP-4 was the first machine of DEC's compatible 18-bit family. (The PDP-1 was 18-bit but not compatible with the later machines.) From vaxman at uswest.net Mon Nov 15 21:02:56 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( Message-ID: Hi, I finally dug my VS3100 out and powered it up, and I think I have some bad parts :( On power up it says: KA42 V1.3 F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7_..6_..5...4...3_..2_..1?.. ? E 0040 0000.0005 ? B 0010 0020.0081 ? 4 00D0 0007.0213 ?? 1 00C0 0011.700E >> NOTE: I have the SCSI/ST506 board unplugged, and no mass storage installed (hence the 7_,6_,3_,2_,1? errors) Now, if i remember the VS2000 stuff correctly, ?E says the 8plane graphics is hosed... The visual symptom is the red plane (the whole plane, no text or anything) blinks on and off, and seems to scroll to the upper left. Disconnecting the red input make it go away, but no red then. Removing the 8plane board and connecting the red to the green (w/sync) input works ok. Anyone run into this before? Any suggestions for how to go about fixing it? ?B says the memory board is hosed. There are two memory boards, a DEC 4MB board (it works when plugged in alone), and a DATARAM memory board (the only numbers I see on it are: 40967 Rev F) Their website advertises a lifetime warranty, has anyone exercised it? Can anyone translate the error message into something I can use to debug the board? What do the ?4 and ?1 errors mean? (As if I didn't have enough problems) Is the VS40X (the 8 plane board) the same as the one in the VS2000? Can I plug it in to my VS2000 to test it? Or move the 4 plane from the VS2000 into the 3100? WHere can I get the carriers for disk drives? This box doesn't have any... Finally, does anyone know what the lowest version of Ultrix that will run on this box is? THanks, clint From ndiablo at diablonet.net Mon Nov 15 22:16:18 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( Message-ID: <19991116041618.5927.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Well, I can tell you that the "1" means that the network interface is not terminated.. hook up a transciever to the AUI port or put some terminators on the BNC port and that error should go away.. I can't quite remember what "4" is though ;) -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From mbg at world.std.com Mon Nov 15 21:17:20 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: OT: patenting an old year/date concept, to make millions Message-ID: <199911160317.WAA09822@world.std.com> >You might want to check your manuals again, Megan - for the past two >decades that I've been doing RT-11 programming, the month field in the >date word *does* run 1-12, not 0-11. (Actually, 0-11 would make >more sense since you're almost always using it as an index into a >table of month names...) Good catch... After 25 years of RT user/developer/user time, you would think I would get it right all the time... :-) That's why I write the code to do the right thing to begin with.. so I don't have to worry about it later... :-) The bottom line is that since the year can be zero, you use a field of the date word which cannot be zero in a valid date (and if you want to completely validate it, you check to see if each field is in the allowable range). The point being that the fact that 1972 was not allowed by the date command when it truly was a valid RT year is a bug, not the official 'legal' limits to years as Jerome had mentioned. >And, of course, the CSI command lines generally expect RAD50 constants >for months, not numbers, so you can generally type > ... > 004322 instead of APR ... > >Note that octal 004322 = decimal 2258. So some fixes are going >to happen in the future with date parsing if one wants to be sure not >to confuse 'APR' with the year '2258' :-). Yep, I remember noting this when I was working on my copy of RT, but it wasn't a problem within the RT epoch of 1972-2099... so... >There are some other funny things with year parsing in CSI command lines >that have been around since the mid 70's. In particular, most of the >RT-11 utilities used to (that is, prior to 5.7) take as legal years >59 through 63 decimal. Convert these to octal, and you see they >are represented as 73 through 77. This way, if you forgot the decimal >point on a CSI command line in specifying a year in the range 73-77, >the utility "fixed it up" for you with the "do what I mean" operator :-). >It's a cute trick, but it doesn't work from 1980 through 1999 because >8 and 9 aren't legal octal digits... and it wasn't reimplemented for >4 digit years in the range of 2000-2007. It's not a cute trick, it is an *ugly* hack, since it tries to account for someone's bad typing... (personal opinion) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From stanp at storm.ca Mon Nov 15 21:23:38 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Customs Tricks (was: Re: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... References: <003001bf2e3d$2a2df180$3273e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3830CE3A.D94CB8BE@storm.ca> > <> > > > >>In Canada they move the agents A LOT! They make sure you won't get someone > >>you know everytime... plus a lot of summer students. When I used to live in the Sault (Ontario), I used to regularly run into a guy I knew from high school at customs...... > <> > >Oh, and don't think the fact your car/truck is nice and shiny and clean and > >tuned will that keep you from getting stopped. Luck has everything to do > >with it, and if the officer you pull up to got lucky the night before, it's > >a breeze. If not... :-( > > Agreed. > The one time I got asked more than 2 questions on the way into the U.S. really got the customs officer's attention: He asked if I had ever been fingerprinted, and when I answered "yes", part 2 of the question was: "Why?'... He was more than relieved when I told him it was a condition of employment for Canada Post...... <> Stan From ndiablo at diablonet.net Mon Nov 15 22:22:40 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( Message-ID: <19991116042240.6041.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> I was looking at your message and a few other things came to mind.. I should really condense all my thoughts _before_ writing :) (1) I'd highly doubt the VS2000 graphics board would fit in the 3100.. I tried to check the size of a VS2000 memory board once (since my VS3100's failed and its only got 4 meg now) and it didnt fit, so i'd imagine it would be more or less the same scenario with the video card. (2) I dont know if you'd want to bother running Ultrix on the thing; you could either get a free license of OpenVMS 7.2 (newest version) from http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist, or you could run NetBSD on the system, which I gather runs _very_ well now that SCSI DMA has been implemented in the newest devel kernels. Using either of those routes, you'd at least get something pretty modern... Going back to Ultrix would mean digging up an old version with probably no support at all.. I gather that Ultrix wasnt a particularly great implementation of UNIX, either, however i've never actually used it myself so I guess I can't speak authoritively on the issue. -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Nov 15 21:22:20 1999 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: DEC Handbooks Message-ID: <03c201bf2fe2$dd1c5880$43eb93c3@proteus> Can anyone please point me at a complete(ish) list of all the various PDP/VAX related DEC handbooks? TIA. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 21:57:03 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: DEC Handbooks In-Reply-To: <03c201bf2fe2$dd1c5880$43eb93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Nov 16, 1999 03:22:20 AM Message-ID: <199911160357.TAA27557@shell1.aracnet.com> > Can anyone please point me at a complete(ish) list of all the various PDP/VAX > related DEC handbooks? > > TIA. > > TTFN - Pete. Best list I know of is the list Megan has on her web pages, sorry don't have the URL. Someone, whose name escapes me (something like Kevin Stumpf maybe), is working on a list for a book he's doing (he's a list member and asked about this a few months ago). I've got a fairly good list of Handbooks, but it's not online, and it's a FileMaker Pro database (OK, ok, I know it's not a classic database, but the copy I'm using is about 6 years old :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 15 22:00:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: OT: Transmeta In-Reply-To: <03c201bf2fe2$dd1c5880$43eb93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Nov 16, 1999 03:22:20 AM Message-ID: <199911160400.UAA27716@shell1.aracnet.com> OK, I'm sure a lot of you are like me and have been wondering what Transmeta has been working on. Their web page finally has data, and you need to look at the html source for most of it (well, we all knew they're a bit odd). http://www.transmeta.com Apparently it's both a processor and software, and it's supposed to revolutionize computing. Full details on January 19th. Oh, it's called the "Crusoe" processor. Zane From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 15 22:21:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <199911160421.XAA27542@world.std.com> I collect because it's fun, and useful. I still type papers and reports on my old Apple IIe. I love restoring computers that are in less than good condition. Right now I'm restoring an old Altos. Its in awful shape. I have to replace 3/4 of the ICs, a lot of the capacitors, and maybe even find/build a new power supply. But I'm looking forward to it, not dreading it. I have a computer in almost every room of the house. Everywhere you look you see a Nova, TRS-80, System/3x, and everything else you can think of. It really is fun. And there are a lot of collectors who would agree with me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991115/599b291d/attachment.html From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Nov 15 23:29:04 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <002101bf2fef$4240dea0$132ca497@compaq> Message-ID: I think we collect because we are part crazy. -mac From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 16 02:21:42 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: References: <002101bf2fef$4240dea0$132ca497@compaq> Message-ID: >I think we collect because we are part crazy. > >-mac I'd just like to say, I resent this remark! What is with that _part_ crack? :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Nov 16 07:16:00 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( In-Reply-To: <19991116041618.5927.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: Doh!!! I had the switch set wrong, and I was too lazy to go downstairs and get an AUI terminator to be safe... Thanks, clint On 16 Nov 1999 ndiablo@diablonet.net wrote: > Well, I can tell you that the "1" means that the network interface is not > terminated.. hook up a transciever to the AUI port or put some terminators > on the BNC port and that error should go away.. I can't quite remember > what "4" is though ;) > > -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) > > From truthanl at oclc.org Tue Nov 16 07:58:25 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Fireproofing questions Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADE7@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney [mailto:af-list@is1.wfi-inc.com] Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 8:22 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Fireproofing questions Hi all, .. I placed a hot clothes iron on the outer wall and measured the temperature/rate of climb on the inner wall, as well as the ambient temperature inside the cabinet. It was enough that, even with a comparatively small heat source (well, to a garage fire, anyway), anything within a few inches of the inner wall would have most definitely been damaged, and possibly items close to the center after a half-hour of exposure to the heat source. Aaron asks: is there something anyone could recommend that would make a good lining for the inner walls of the cabinet to insulate it from heat? Drywall/ sheetrock/ Gypsum Board. Clipped or cemented in place. Its common, Its Flat, the Gypsum part wont flame. Its Fire rated. The expanding foam is definately NOT what you want. Its chemical composition provides fuel and oxygen to fire. If you have voids to fill - Plaster? OR High Density FiberGlass Panels as in Commercial Drop-Cieling Panel Tiles. This stuff is densely pressed, (Often embossed with a pattern) The Commercial grade panels are somewhat rigid - but also fire rated for close proximity to commercial lighting. Note the stuff is pressed class fiber - Not impregnated, bound, or laminated with epoxy or polyester resin. The resins also support Flame with out need of too much oxygen. From jott at ee.nd.edu Tue Nov 16 08:23:10 1999 From: jott at ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991115120611.00b84eb0@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Hello - I just bought a HP Ingegral PC model 207 at a hamfest. It's running HP-UX/RO Rel. 5.0 (82995A) 1 Mb Ram, 82916A Serial port, 82919A HPIB port I don't have any documentation or floppies. I am looking for any information at all. I don't know anything about it except it has a flavor of UNIX in ROM. Are there any FAQ's or URL's people could recommend? Thanks. john *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 16 08:40:50 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <199911160421.XAA27542@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991116064050.0095b8a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:21 15-11-1999 -0500, somebody wrote: > You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all minis and mainframes are huge monsters. While this may be true of most mainframes, and some minis, there are many that are not much bigger than a large tower PC. My reasons for collecting the beasties are, like Allison's, a mix of practical and a dislike of modern "commoditized" hardware that seems to be built specifically not be reparable at the component level. I have here mostly MicroVAX, MicroPDP, and some Sun SPARCs (not quite classics yet -- give it another year or so). The MicroVAXen run NetBSD (a free Unix OS) exceptionally well, are built like the proverbial tank, and are readily reparable in the rare event that something goes flooey. I have one MV III that will become my news and FTP server. Once NetBSD 1.5 gets released, it is likely that either one of my 3100's or the DECStation RISC box I have will become a mail server. Web will be handled either by another MV III or a Sun box. I've yet to decide for certain. The MicroPDP's I have are idle at the moment. I want to find a decent Unix load for them. Failing that, I will probably trade them off to one or more of my fellow list members for other goodies. Others have asked me why I don't just go with a bunch of PCs running Linux. The answer is 'Robustness.' While some PCs have gotten much more reliable, hardware-wise, I've yet to see any such system that's built to the same standards as the DEC hardware. Even Sun, in many cases, makes use of more plastic than I'd usually prefer to see. Technical and design excellence is a top priority with me, even if it costs a little more to use or the rest of the world has abandoned it. Case in point: My cellphone is an older Motorola 'flip' style, one of their first-generation digital TDMA units. It only works digital on AT&T's network, hasn't been manufactured for several years, and lacks the fancy LCD and whizzy features of the modern units. HOWEVER -- it's built very well, and it fits my hand and face far better than any of the "toy" cellphones being pushed by the resellers. BTW, off-topic, but if anyone knows of a "sports" or "rugged duty" cellphone, I'd sure like to hear about it. None of the "smaller and lighter" craze units I've seen even come close. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From truthanl at oclc.org Tue Nov 16 09:00:40 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADE8@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Bruce, I have a MicroVax I I have been able to communicate to it using a terminal emulator into one of its serial ports. I believe it has VMS 4.X? loaded, But it has been too long since I last had it running. I was able to list devices, But now I forget the login process. I have always wanted to get more mainstream with a version Unix for this Box. What can you tell me of freeBSD Unix? What is it's distribution media? This unit has the 5.25 floppies, which I dont recall ever being able to boot (Only because I don't know VMS, nor do I know what programs or utilities I have on Floppy that are "Bootable"). Where do I start? Learn VMS or Learn hardware requirement for, and get FreeBSD? Hardware is rock solid. Sincerely Larry Truthan -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane [mailto:kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 9:41 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Dont want to start a flame war here but At 23:21 15-11-1999 -0500, somebody wrote: > You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all minis and mainframes are huge monsters. While this may be true of most mainframes, and some minis, there are many that are not much bigger than a large tower PC. My reasons for collecting the beasties are, like Allison's, a mix of practical and a dislike of modern "commoditized" hardware that seems to be built specifically not be reparable at the component level. I have here mostly MicroVAX, MicroPDP, and some Sun SPARCs (not quite classics yet -- give it another year or so). The MicroVAXen run NetBSD (a free Unix OS) exceptionally well, are built like the proverbial tank, and are readily reparable in the rare event that something goes flooey. I have one MV III that will become my news and FTP server. Once NetBSD 1.5 gets released, it is likely that either one of my 3100's or the DECStation RISC box I have will become a mail server. Web will be handled either by another MV III or a Sun box. I've yet to decide for certain. The MicroPDP's I have are idle at the moment. I want to find a decent Unix load for them. Failing that, I will probably trade them off to one or more of my fellow list members for other goodies. Others have asked me why I don't just go with a bunch of PCs running Linux. The answer is 'Robustness.' While some PCs have gotten much more reliable, hardware-wise, I've yet to see any such system that's built to the same standards as the DEC hardware. Even Sun, in many cases, makes use of more plastic than I'd usually prefer to see. Technical and design excellence is a top priority with me, even if it costs a little more to use or the rest of the world has abandoned it. Case in point: My cellphone is an older Motorola 'flip' style, one of their first-generation digital TDMA units. It only works digital on AT&T's network, hasn't been manufactured for several years, and lacks the fancy LCD and whizzy features of the modern units. HOWEVER -- it's built very well, and it fits my hand and face far better than any of the "toy" cellphones being pushed by the resellers. BTW, off-topic, but if anyone knows of a "sports" or "rugged duty" cellphone, I'd sure like to hear about it. None of the "smaller and lighter" craze units I've seen even come close. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mbg at world.std.com Tue Nov 16 09:09:46 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: DEC Handbooks Message-ID: <199911161509.KAA00929@world.std.com> >Best list I know of is the list Megan has on her web pages, sorry don't >have the URL. Thanks for the compliment... http://world.std.com/~mbg/dec_handbooks.html And the companion list of DEC reference cards: http://world.std.com/~mbg/dec_refcards.html >Someone, whose name escapes me (something like Kevin Stumpf maybe), is >working on a list for a book he's doing (he's a list member and asked >about this a few months ago). Yep, he's the one... I basically put my list together to send to him, then I turned it into a web page (which still needs work). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Nov 16 09:37:56 1999 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: DEC Handbooks References: <199911160357.TAA27557@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <001101bf3048$de003f80$c5ea93c3@proteus> Hi Zane, > Best list I know of is the list Megan has on her web pages, sorry >don't have the URL. Yes, that's the one I had at the back of my mind when I put the message out....I've looked at it before but lost the URL when I had some problems with my system. :-( Hopefully someone will know what it is. I'm just looking for a list so that I know what's out there. Also since I'm looking for some VAX handbooks in particular I could do with knowing what's actually available. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From jlewczyk at his.com Tue Nov 16 10:52:17 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Supermac Technology Enhance card for Mac 128K Message-ID: <004601bf3052$f110ba00$013da8c0@Corellian> I just came into ownership (well, I've have it a couple of days) of a Supermac Technology Enhance card that was an internal upgrade for a Mac128K. I need some information on this card, such as feature set, connectors, etc. Basically I need a manual, a copy of same, or to communicate with someone with experience with this vintage card and a Mac 128K. Anybody know about it? Thanks, John jlewczyk@his.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 16 11:02:10 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but References: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADE8@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Message-ID: <99111612052809.13713@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Truthan,Larry wrote: >I have a MicroVax I > >I have been able to communicate to it using a terminal emulator into one of >its serial ports. > >I believe it has VMS 4.X? loaded, But it has been too long since I last had >it running. I was able to list devices, But now I forget the login process. > >I have always wanted to get more mainstream with a version Unix for this >Box. What can you tell me of freeBSD Unix? What is it's distribution media? >This unit has the 5.25 floppies, which I dont recall ever being able to boot >(Only because I don't know VMS, nor do I know what programs or utilities I >have on Floppy that are "Bootable"). > >Where do I start? Learn VMS or Learn hardware requirement for, and get >FreeBSD? FreeBSD is primarily a PC operating system. You're probably thinking of NetBSD, which runs on (among some 20 other processors) VAXen. However, the MicroVAX I cpu is not yet supported by NetBSD. Its internal architecture is quite a bit different from most of the other "mainstream" VAX implementations, and the kernel-hacking folks in the NetBSD/vax world haven't had much chance to work on it yet. Your best bet, if you're sure you want to dump VMS, is to get ahold of Ultrix. That's a DEC Unix product that'll run pretty well on that machine. -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 16 11:12:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991116064050.0095b8a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Checkout PUPS, they have licenses and most PDP-11 unix versions. 2.11 should run on a microPDP (11/73 or higher cpu) if it has I&D space. > The MicroPDP's I have are idle at the moment. I want to find a decent Unix > load for them. Failing that, I will probably trade them off to one or more > of my fellow list members for other goodies. allison From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Nov 16 12:40:03 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: OT: A Unix question (the TALK function)..... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991116124003.02e151c0@207.207.0.212> Well, TALK is an old command so, maybe it's not off topic.... Can anyone tell me what's going on... When I "talk wolf@hera.dominion.net", it SEEMS to make a connection then I get "[Checking for invitation on caller's machine]" and it sits there... mocking me. (Stupid machine). Talk works fine when myself and the person I am trying to contact are on the same machine. What is the deal? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 16 12:46:03 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADE8@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Message-ID: Larry Truthan wrote: >Where do I start? Learn VMS or Learn hardware requirement for, and get >FreeBSD? Simple, it's a MicroVAX, learn VMS :^) I hate to say it, but that's probably what it's best for (probably should justify this statement, 1. the Hard Drives, 2. the fact it's 0.3 VUPs). Don't take that wrong, I think that's a seriously cool sounding system you've got there, and a lot rarer than any of my VMS capable systems! I've now got a VMS box set up and serving NFS, AppleTalk, and Samba (Samba is only there for legacy apps). It's also doing FTP, and I'm working on getting it set up as a Mail server (if I actually start running my own mailserver I'll probably split that job off to another member of the Cluster). I don't think I'll bother with putting a Webserver on it since my Firewall acts as a Web and FTP server (unfortunatly in order to get a NAT and a good Firewall it's running UNIX). Have a look at the following web page for info on the OpenVMS Hobbyist program: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html Unfortunatly the MicroVAX I isn't supported by OpenVMS 7.2, and I don't remember what the last version to support it is, might be 5.5-2. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 16 12:48:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991115120611.00b84eb0@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: >I just bought a HP Ingegral PC model 207 at a hamfest. It's running >HP-UX/RO Rel. 5.0 (82995A) >1 Mb Ram, 82916A >Serial port, 82919A >HPIB port > >I don't have any documentation or floppies. I am looking for any >information at all. I don't know anything about it except it has >a flavor of UNIX in ROM. > >Are there any FAQ's or URL's people could recommend? None that I'm aware of, and I don't have floppies either :^( Most of HP-UX is actually on those floppies. There is a cover on the back that opens to reveal the ROM pack, the question is, does it have a ROM pack in it? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 16 12:54:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991116064050.0095b8a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Nov 16, 99 06:40:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991116/658c59c6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 16 12:38:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: <002101bf2fef$4240dea0$132ca497@compaq> from "Owen Robertson" at Nov 15, 99 10:58:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991116/1d9f6be7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 16 12:39:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Nov 15, 99 09:29:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991116/ddb255a9/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Nov 16 13:39:57 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: OT: A Unix question (the TALK function)..... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991116124003.02e151c0@207.207.0.212> from Arfon Gryffydd at "Nov 16, 1999 12:40: 3 pm" Message-ID: <199911161948.OAA12402@pechter.dyndns.org> > Well, TALK is an old command so, maybe it's not off topic.... > > Can anyone tell me what's going on... > > When I "talk wolf@hera.dominion.net", it SEEMS to make a connection then I > get "[Checking for invitation on caller's machine]" and it sits there... > mocking me. (Stupid machine). > > Talk works fine when myself and the person I am trying to contact are on > the same machine. > > What is the deal? > 1. Talk has a problem. It's byte order dependant and old. It only works with machines of the same byte order. The fix is (I believe) ytalk which is a new version of the talk program. Bill From jott at ee.nd.edu Tue Nov 16 13:57:41 1999 From: jott at ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello - The cover is missing, but the ROM pack is in it 82995A. john *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I just bought a HP Ingegral PC model 207 at a hamfest. It's running > >HP-UX/RO Rel. 5.0 (82995A) > >1 Mb Ram, 82916A > >Serial port, 82919A > >HPIB port > > > >I don't have any documentation or floppies. I am looking for any > >information at all. I don't know anything about it except it has > >a flavor of UNIX in ROM. > > > >Are there any FAQ's or URL's people could recommend? > > None that I'm aware of, and I don't have floppies either :^( Most of HP-UX > is actually on those floppies. There is a cover on the back that opens to > reveal the ROM pack, the question is, does it have a ROM pack in it? > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Nov 16 14:05:57 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Computers and other hardware containing the 8008 microprocessor References: Message-ID: <3831B925.72BFDFAB@wxs.nl> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm trying to compile a list of computers and other hardware that contained > > the venerable Intel 8008 microprocessor. > > Incidentally, if somebody is doing the same thing with the 4040 > microprocessor, I've got 3 'sightings' that you may have missed : > I've once obtained the innards of a gambling machine that was damaged in a fire. It contained a 4040 chipset. Unfortunadly I've discarded the stuff a long time ago (early 80's) But i still see some very old 'bandits' in use once in a while (as a matter of fact I still play one ocasionally that I suspect has this chipset). I'll be on my guard when this one gets scrapped. (I've already payed the damned thing) Sipke de Wal From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Nov 16 14:28:51 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. References: <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> <199911121841.TAA15386@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <3831BE83.D76EA5E2@wxs.nl> A serious version of this experiment could be executed with a freezeblock on the processor. Some years back they sold cooling fans that included a peltier-element (a diode running a DC current that cools on one side and heats up on the other). The exess heat needs to be fanned away. This way you should be able to effectively overclock a 486DX100 in a practical manner. Sipke de Wal Hans Franke wrote: > > Well, do you still belive Overclocking etc. is still > modern stuff talk ? See what you can do with your > good old system: > http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html > > (Start the browser, it's worth, and I can't tell anything :) > > Gruss > H. > Back from Helsinki - no Finish computers :( > But just today I found two partly plundered MX 300 and a > real old MX 500 running for a safe heaven in my storage :) > > -- > Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. > H.Achternbusch From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Nov 16 14:35:34 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Help identify a 'luggable' Message-ID: <0.40606a30.25631a16@aol.com> I am trying to help someone identify a machine. They believe it is a Compaq 'luggable', but the name plates have been removed. Following is some info. I realize it is not much to go, but if anyone has some insight, I would appreaciate it. Mike *outside dimensions width 19", length 17", height 7 1/2 " * keyboard has spiral cable from back right of keyboard to main case, and has sliders that move toward center of back of kb to unlock *monitor is 'orange', left edge is 3 5/8 inches in from left outside right edge is 11 1/4 " from left outside * power/reset push buttom is near bottom of front panel, center 6 1/2 " from right side, center measurement * opening for diskette drives ( a 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 ) has left edge 6 5/8 inches from right side * there are apparently nameplate 'places' at back left of keyboard top left on from panel * keyboard has 3 red lights at back left labeled ( left to right ) caps lock num lock scroll lock * on the left side ( looking from the front ) is a sliding door with access to end of circuit boards inside for plugs a rocker switch labeled - MONO RGB * on right side door fan power switch socket for AC power cord From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Nov 16 14:41:03 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <3831BE83.D76EA5E2@wxs.nl> References: <3.0.1.32.19991111214449.00a46100@127.0.0.1> <199911121841.TAA15386@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991116144103.00940dc0@207.207.0.212> How about submerging the whole MB in a container of Mineral oil or anti-freeze with a circulation pump? Is anti-freeze conductive? I'd like to try that! >Some years back they sold cooling fans that included a >peltier-element (a diode running a DC current that cools on one side and >heats up on the other). The exess heat needs to be fanned away. This way >you should be able to effectively overclock a 486DX100 in a practical >manner. >> Well, do you still belive Overclocking etc. is still >> modern stuff talk ? See what you can do with your >> good old system: >> http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Sid.Payne at radisys.com Tue Nov 16 14:34:40 1999 From: Sid.Payne at radisys.com (Sid.Payne@radisys.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: Jumper settings for TEAC FD235HF p/n 19307322-17 Message-ID: <8825682B.0071C769.00@notes.radisys.com> Do you have jumper setting descriptions for this ? H-HO OP LHI HHI From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Nov 16 14:54:32 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:33 2005 Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? In-Reply-To: <000601bf21d1$e204a560$98b8fea9@hal-9000-2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991029082038.00ae0690@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:53 PM 10/28/99 -0600, Mark Gregory said something like: Hello Mark, I've got one of these systems. A 9370 model 60 (uses a 9375-60 processor.) This one is purported to be the first regular production unit sold to a customer (my ex-employer). Serial no. (something)0001. Not near the machine presently. I have not successfully gotten it running at home _yet_. I'm not an expert at IBM big iron but have been learning bits here and there. I've not had it turned on to continue with run-up since late '97 because of "minor" events in our homelife (moving to a new house, unemployment, etc.) The IPL fails for reasons unknown so far. I got the PS/2 Model 30 console with it plus all its floppies and a heap 'o hardware docs. >There is an IBM 9370 Mainframe coming available in my area, and I'm >considering acquiring it (never had my own mainframe to play with). Mainframe? Yeah, I guess it could still be called that because of its intended application to handle a whole enterprise plus it is a CMOS implementation of the good ol' S/370 iron. However, its performance was rather poor compared to IBM's newer AS/400 family launched about the same time as or just before the 9370. >I haven't been able to find much on the Web about this family of systems. >Can anyone point me to some info or confirm/deny the following facts: > >System produced: circa 1986 - 1988 I think production stopped in 1990. The AS/400's of the time could whip the 9370 and it apparently didn't sell all that well from what I can tell. Mine came off the line in late-'87 as I recall since that's when the company completed the new computer center at a separate downtown building. >Intended market: "departmental mainframe", 20-100 users >Operating system: VM/SE >Dimensions: Refridgeratorish >Weight: 300 lb racks; 200-300 lb processor assembly; drives ??? The 9375-60 processor in mine weighs 130 kilos. Had to completely dismantle it so I could move it and carry it downstairs. Much too large to simply remove the boards and PSU's and carry it alone. >Typical peripherals: DASD drives, high-volume, heavy printers (500 lbs +), >tape drives, PS/2 consoles >Networking: ASCII subsystem for terminals, Ethernet? No, typically the SNA 3270 network. >Power and Cooling requirements: 3 phase power (240 V)?? Single phase 240V. I use a 30A double pole breaker off my panel. > >I suspect that this system will be too large for my available space; is The cabinets were too big to stuff down the basement stairs at our old house. Even this house we recently moved into _just_ misses having the basement entrance off the garage big enough to allow the cabs to squirt through. Indeed they are big and clumsy to handle, over 300 pounds stripped down to the paint. Conditions out in our uninsulated garage preclude storing it out there because of the Fall/Winter/early Spring weather around here (dampness at times, large temp. swings too). So I didn't bring the cabs home (had to scrap 'em) and just have the components setting in a heavy-duty 19" equipment rack on wheels :( >anyone else in or near Western Canada interested in the system in whole or >in part? Thanks for any help. Western Canada . . . Dang. I wish you were close to me (basically just inland across Lake Erie from ON.) Then I might attempt getting it, finding a big bucket of grease and trying to get a rack squeezed down into the basement here. Several of us discussed the 9370's on this list back in early 1998 (February?) Check the ClassicCmp archives under '9370' at for the months around 2/98. I *need* OS docs for this machine too. I understand it has VSE of some sort (recall I haven't gotten 'er up and runnin' yet). Probably been updated to the mid-1993 timeperiod releases. >Mark Gregory > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From truthanl at oclc.org Tue Nov 16 15:10:27 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Help identify a 'luggable' Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADEA@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Any Compaq stickers on ROM chips? 8088 Processor? Compaq Logo posted on boot? or Compaq BIOS message? It can't be that clean!! Their original video card which did either color or mono should also have Compaq Specific ROM stickers.and Perhap Paradise Palm Tree logos etched on the card. FCCID labels on the Main Board should be tracible to Compaq. Compaq was very proud to have Clean "Compatible" Bios I was the Owner of Luggable Serial # ??000029. I should have my manuals somewhere. Power supply was the weakness early luggables had. Does it power up? -----Original Message----- From: Mzthompson@aol.com [mailto:Mzthompson@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 3:36 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Help identify a 'luggable' I am trying to help someone identify a machine. They believe it is a Compaq 'luggable', but the name plates have been removed. Following is some info. I realize it is not much to go, but if anyone has some insight, I would appreaciate it. Mike *outside dimensions width 19", length 17", height 7 1/2 " * keyboard has spiral cable from back right of keyboard to main case, and has sliders that move toward center of back of kb to unlock *monitor is 'orange', left edge is 3 5/8 inches in from left outside right edge is 11 1/4 " from left outside * power/reset push buttom is near bottom of front panel, center 6 1/2 " from right side, center measurement * opening for diskette drives ( a 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 ) has left edge 6 5/8 inches from right side * there are apparently nameplate 'places' at back left of keyboard top left on from panel * keyboard has 3 red lights at back left labeled ( left to right ) caps lock num lock scroll lock * on the left side ( looking from the front ) is a sliding door with access to end of circuit boards inside for plugs a rocker switch labeled - MONO RGB * on right side door fan power switch socket for AC power cord From pmarzolf at juno.com Tue Nov 16 15:16:14 1999 From: pmarzolf at juno.com (pmarzolf@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Old Computer stuff Message-ID: <19991116.141616.-203571.0.pmarzolf@juno.com> From: Paul V. Marzolf 2761 Morningside Dr. Salt Lake City, Ut. 84124 Phone: (801) 277 7556 Email: pmarzolf@juno.com I don't know what I'm doing here but here it goes. I am looking for new homes for all the old computer stuff I have collected in my 40 years of working in the computer busness. I am a person that don't like to through any think away. I have hardware, books, manuals, magazines, and software. Here is a list of the hardware: ***LIST OF HARDWARE AND DOCUMENTATION*** COMPUTERS --------- 2 LOBO'S MAX80 - 5MHz Z-80B PROCESSOR 64k RAM. CP/M INCLUDED ALL DISK INTERFACE BUILT IN. PLUG IN ANY COMBINATION OF 5 1/4" FLOPPIES, 8" FLOPPIES, AND WINCHESTER DISK. CENTRONICS-TYPE PARALLEL PORT. BUILT-IN CLOCK/CALENDAR WITH BATTERY BACKUP, AND BUFFERED I/O EXPANDER PORT. 1 BOX OF DOCUMENTATION DUAL 8" DISK DRIVES (UNIVAC DRIVES) LOBO 5" HARD DISK DRIVE MONITOR ARC X-TURBO FLIP TOP CASE, 640K 8MHZ MOTHER BOARD, CLOCK/CALENDAR, TWO PAR, 2 SER, GAME PORT, 4 DRIVE CONTROLLER (RIBBON CABLES), 135W POWER SUPPLY, COLOR BOARD(RGB), 83 KEY KEYBOARD, TAXAN 415 MONITOR, THE HEART OF THE ARC X-TURBO IS THE INTEL 8088-2 MICRO-PROCESSOR USED IN THE IBM PERSONAL COMPUTER. TWO 5 1/4' FULL SIZE DISK DRIVES. TWO 5 1/4" HALF SIZE HIGH DENSITY EXTERNAL DISK DRIVES COMPAQ SUITE CASE PORTABLE (INTEL 8088) THE KEYBOARD IS THE LID. HAS BUILT IN MONITOR AND 2 5" FLOPPIES. THE SIZE OF THE CARRY AROUND IS 16" X 20" X 9". OTHER COMPUTER HARDWARE ----------------------- POWER SUPPLY FOR APPLE IIE MICROSOFT Z80 SOFTCARD - A PERIFHERAL FOR THE APPLE IIE WITH CP/M AND MICROSOFT BASIC ON 5" DISKETTE. EMPTY BOX FOR FULL SIZE 5" DISK DRIVE (FOR TRS-80) DUAL 5" DISK DRIVE UNIT 2 - DUAL 8" DISK DRIVE UNITS (UNIVAC) 2 - 8" DISK DRIVES DIRECT/ACOUSTICALLY COUPLED MODEM LEX-12 2 - UNIVERSAL DATA SYSTEMS 103 LP MODEM (ORIGINATE/ANSWER) DIAL PHONE TO USE WITH ABOVE MODEM PRINTERS UNVAC SERIAL PRINTER DOT MATRIX PRINTERS CITIZEN 2000GX PANASONIC KX-P1080i PANASONIC KX-P2023 UNVAC SERIAL PRINTER GORILLA/BANANA POWER SUPPLY HARDWARE. B6 ***BOX 9*** HARDWARE ACCESSORIES -------------------- ELBO ARM FOR COMPUTER. B9 HEAVY DUTY THAT CLAMP ONTO A DESK AND HOLDS A MONITOR AND KEYBOARD. TIP TABLE MONTIOR STAND. B9 3 PRINTER STANDS AND PAPER HOLDER. B9 2 5" DISKETTE TEAR HOLDER. B9 If interested I can send info about the computer stuff. Just ask???? It would be better for me if any response would use my E-mail address to talk to me. Hope someone will be interested. PAUL ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Nov 16 15:53:07 1999 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. Message-ID: <018701bf307c$f7edd4a0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Mineral oil has been done; check out the Dr. Ffreeze project (with pictures) at: http://www.accsdata.com/drffreeze/Default.htm Cheers, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: Re: E.U.N.U.C.H. >How about submerging the whole MB in a container of Mineral oil or >anti-freeze with a circulation pump? Is anti-freeze conductive? I'd like >to try that! > > From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 16 15:52:37 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: OT: A Unix question (the TALK function)..... References: <3.0.3.32.19991116124003.02e151c0@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <3831D225.C332C85A@mainecoon.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: [snip] > When I "talk wolf@hera.dominion.net", it SEEMS to make a connection then I > get "[Checking for invitation on caller's machine]" and it sits there... > mocking me. (Stupid machine). > > Talk works fine when myself and the person I am trying to contact are on > the same machine. > > What is the deal? Assuming that the person you're trying to talk with is actually logged in, the top two causes would be the talk daemon being disabled in the inetd configuration (pretty standard at most sites, actually) or a firewall between you and the intended recipient. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 16 16:02:41 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: OT: A Unix question (the TALK function)..... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991116124003.02e151c0@207.207.0.212> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Nov 16, 99 12:40:03 pm Message-ID: <199911162202.RAA17709@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1128 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991116/94d55ea2/attachment.ksh From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Tue Nov 16 16:24:25 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991116144103.00940dc0@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: I've played with this a little... The first one I did was a water-cooled, dual-peltier "sandwich" cooler. I use a refrigerator compressor to chill the coolant to ~5C and get the cpu slug down to around -40C. I can run my Celeron 366 at a stable 710mhz with that one. The second one I did (well, implemented anyway) is cooled with compressed gas. The coil is fed with a 2000psi dry-air tank and is attached directly to my hot plate. I also get the slug down to between -50C and -40C with this one. I've had the 366 running above 800mhz with it, but the tank runs out before I can do any hard-core tests for stability. The nice thing is that the vented gas can be blown into the case or across heatsink fins to further cool the ambient temperature. Someday I'll invest in a larger tank (arc welder type or something) and see what I can do with it... Fun, fun, fun... On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > How about submerging the whole MB in a container of Mineral oil or > anti-freeze with a circulation pump? Is anti-freeze conductive? I'd like > to try that! > > > >Some years back they sold cooling fans that included a > >peltier-element (a diode running a DC current that cools on one side and > >heats up on the other). The exess heat needs to be fanned away. This way > >you should be able to effectively overclock a 486DX100 in a practical > >manner. > >> Well, do you still belive Overclocking etc. is still > >> modern stuff talk ? See what you can do with your > >> good old system: > >> http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html > > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > Slackware Mailing List: > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Nov 16 16:32:20 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Prime 2550 possibly available Message-ID: <01BF3058.89C4E1E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Saturday, November 13, 1999 12:48 AM, John Lawson [SMTP:jpl15@netcom.com] wrote: > > > I have been thinkin' lately that perhaps I oughta stick strictly > to DEC Stuff... and I am trying to reduce the tonnage around here. > > So I gets to lookin' at the bee-yoo-tee-full PR1ME mainframe that > I actually paid to rescue. And it ain't got no DEC logos on it nowhere. > I've got a 2550 with a bad CPU. Just wondering if you've got any spare parts laying about? Thanks, Steve Robertson - From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 16 18:26:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991115120611.00b84eb0@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991116182652.223fc6a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:48 AM 11/16/99 -0800, you wrote: >>I just bought a HP Ingegral PC model 207 at a hamfest. It's running >>HP-UX/RO Rel. 5.0 (82995A) >>1 Mb Ram, 82916A >>Serial port, 82919A >>HPIB port >> >>I don't have any documentation or floppies. I am looking for any >>information at all. I don't know anything about it except it has >>a flavor of UNIX in ROM. >> >>Are there any FAQ's or URL's people could recommend? > >None that I'm aware of, and I don't have floppies either :^( Most of HP-UX >is actually on those floppies. There is a cover on the back that opens to >reveal the ROM pack, the question is, does it have a ROM pack in it? If he's getting Unix and doesn't have a disk in it then he has the SE (Software Engineering) ROM installed. I have disks with software but I just don't have the time to set a machine up and make copies. Joe From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 16 17:15:18 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: If this is what I think it is... Message-ID: <13500145718.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have a device labeled a "VIKING UDT" that purports to be a Unibus SCSI disk controller. Anyone have more info on this? ------- From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 16 17:23:36 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: DEC Handbooks Message-ID: <19991116232336.22727.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Can anyone please point me at a complete(ish) list of all the various > > PDP/VAX related DEC handbooks? > > > > TIA. > > > > TTFN - Pete. > > Best list I know of is the list Megan has on her web pages, sorry don't have > the URL. I happen to be working on a list this week... it's not *all* the handbooks, but it's all the ones that _I_ have. I'm about 10% done. http://penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/dwg?file=docs/data/handbooks.txt Also... I'm inventorying the two boxes of B-sized prints I found in the attic this last week (after a six month search!). Neither is exhaustive, but the first box is at least all listed by the identity of the cover sheet (since many of the print sets contain entire other prints sets in their own rights). I'm going through the second box more carefully for the first pass. It's a good thing I did: I found a ASR-33 test/adjustment document at the back of something completely different. All I need now is a set of feeler gauges. http://penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/dwg?file=docs/data/box1.txt http://penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/dwg?file=docs/data/box2.txt Before anyone asks, no, I haven't scanned any of this. I do not have access to an 11"x17" scanner. I wish I did. The CGI script is just something I whipped up for basic formatting to turn a comma-separated file into a table with the CGI.pm module in perl. The greatest perk of my current assignment is that we use OO perl for production code. I've picked up quite an arsenal of perl tricks over the past six months. Eventually, I'll be sprucing up the retrocomputing pages at... http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/ ... but it's not high on the list of things to do this month. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 16 17:29:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991116182652.223fc6a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Nov 16, 1999 06:26:52 PM Message-ID: <199911162329.PAA12374@shell1.aracnet.com> > If he's getting Unix and doesn't have a disk in it then he has the SE > (Software Engineering) ROM installed. Whoa, , I just assumed he was getting the very minimalist OS that's in ROM on a bare system. Gee, why did mine have to come with BASIC instead of that! Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 16 17:34:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: If this is what I think it is... In-Reply-To: <13500145718.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 16, 1999 03:15:18 PM Message-ID: <199911162334.PAA12499@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I have a device labeled a "VIKING UDT" that purports to be a Unibus SCSI > disk controller. Anyone have more info on this? > ------- > Good Find! You can find the doc's on my FTP site in Dan's directory. ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi/ You should be able to use both Disks and Tapes with that. Note, Non-DEC disks and disks that auto-spinup work best. I don't know if it will support a CD-ROM, figuring that out is on my todo list. Zane From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 16 17:38:30 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( Message-ID: <19991116233830.29534.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > Now, if i remember the VS2000 stuff correctly, > > Finally, does anyone know what the lowest version of Ultrix that will > run on this box is? Since there was both VS2000 and VS3100 stuff here, I'm not sure I'm answering the right question, but I have personally loaded Ultrix T-2.0 on a VS2000. We got a prerelease version from DEC way back when. I do not know if Ultrix 1.1 will run on a MicroVAX of any kind (but it will run on a VAX-11/730 - I used it to attach our company to Usenet before the great renaming). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From denic at liii.com Tue Nov 16 17:43:43 1999 From: denic at liii.com (Dennis N. Aruta) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Famous Bill Gates Harvard ASR33 Clones! Message-ID: Thanks to all that have an interest in my 3 ASR33's with tape readers Since Bill Gates used one in his Dorm Room as an incentive to Microsoft, I have decided not to reply to the Firm offers I have received, but to place these machines on EBAY for Auction to establish the actual value. When and if I do this I will e-mail an announcemnet to you. If you are bothered by this e-mail and do not wish to participate, please reply and I will delete your address. Otherwise I just may put them instorage for my GrandChildren! :~) Best Regards. Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) & International Commerce List (c), INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE + SHIPS Visit my Message Board FireTalk 34260 denic ICQ #174727 Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com DenicNY@aol.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 16 17:46:22 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: If this is what I think it is... In-Reply-To: <199911162334.PAA12499@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <13500151373.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Got it. I don't see the terminal plugin they mention... Is it built into the 50-pin plug at the top of the board? Oh geez, do I need a cable kit for this? I don't have if if there is one... ------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 16 18:14:38 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: If this is what I think it is... In-Reply-To: <13500151373.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 16, 1999 03:46:22 PM Message-ID: <199911170014.QAA14336@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Got it. I don't see the terminal plugin they mention... Is it built into > the 50-pin plug at the top of the board? Oh geez, do I need a cable kit for > this? I don't have if if there is one... > ------- > Just plug a couple disks in and see what happens, you can use a plain 50-pin cable. That's the way I'm doing it. The terminal plugin is nice as it lets you change the settings on the board. I'm not sure what tape drives it supports, IIRC, one model supported is the Exabyte 8200. Zane From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 16 18:27:46 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Famous Bill Gates Harvard ASR33 Clones! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19991116162000.03fc31b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:43 PM 11/16/99 -0500, Dennis Aruta wrote: > Thanks to all that have an interest in my 3 ASR33's with tape readers >Since Bill Gates used one in his Dorm Room as an incentive to >Microsoft, I have decided not to reply to the Firm offers I have received, >but to place these machines on EBAY for Auction to establish the actual >value. Sigh. #1 it is unclear if Bill Gates *ever* had an ASR33 in his Dorm room, that stupid and largely inaccurate TNT movie not withstanding. #2 it is unkind to misstate one's intentions, especially to such a large group. Next time please write: I'm going to try to squeeze every penny I can out of these priceless historical pieces, even if it means melting them down for their copper content. Rather than insinuate that you actually care whether or not the person who gets them will preserve them or not. I don't believe there is anything "Wrong" with being cash greedy and history foolish if you are honest about it.(look at all the money that was made selling Egyption pyramid artifacts for their gold content!) Just don't stop by this list and pretend you want them to go to a preservationist. Sigh, --Chuck From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 16 17:39:21 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Famous Bill Gates Harvard ASR33 Clones! Message-ID: <006201bf308b$ce8b8260$6843a4cf@default> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Famous Bill Gates Harvard ASR33 Clones! >At 06:43 PM 11/16/99 -0500, Dennis Aruta wrote: >> Thanks to all that have an interest in my 3 ASR33's with tape readers >>Since Bill Gates used one in his Dorm Room as an incentive to >>Microsoft, I have decided not to reply to the Firm offers I have received, >>but to place these machines on EBAY for Auction to establish the actual >>value. > >Sigh. > #1 it is unclear if Bill Gates *ever* had an ASR33 in his > Dorm room, that stupid and largely inaccurate TNT movie > not withstanding. > I don't think it really matters if Bill Gates used one. I am sure he used many other things we all use... and possibly things we would refuse to use ;-) > #2 it is unkind to misstate one's intentions, especially > to such a large group. > I think it's called "fishing" for $$$ >Next time please write: > > I'm going to try to squeeze every penny I can out of these > priceless historical pieces, even if it means melting them > down for their copper content. > >Rather than insinuate that you actually care whether or not the person who >gets them will preserve them or not. > >I don't believe there is anything "Wrong" with being cash greedy and >history foolish if you are honest about it.(look at all the money that was >made selling Egyption pyramid artifacts for their gold content!) Just >don't stop by this list and pretend you want them to go to a preservationist. > >Sigh, >--Chuck > From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 16 19:12:15 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I've played with this a little... > > The first one I did was a water-cooled, dual-peltier "sandwich" cooler. I > use a refrigerator compressor to chill the coolant to ~5C and get the cpu > slug down to around -40C. I can run my Celeron 366 at a stable 710mhz with > that one. > > The second one I did (well, implemented anyway) is cooled with compressed > gas. The coil is fed with a 2000psi dry-air tank and is attached directly > to my hot plate. I also get the slug down to between -50C and -40C with > this one. I've had the 366 running above 800mhz with it, but the tank runs > out before I can do any hard-core tests for stability. The nice thing is > that the vented gas can be blown into the case or across heatsink fins to > further cool the ambient temperature. Someday I'll invest in a larger tank > (arc welder type or something) and see what I can do with it... You might want to explore cooling with a Hilsch tube, but I doubt that you would achieve temperatures that low. (Gawd! I haven't thought of one of those things in eons!) - don > Fun, fun, fun... > > On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > > How about submerging the whole MB in a container of Mineral oil or > > anti-freeze with a circulation pump? Is anti-freeze conductive? I'd like > > to try that! > > > > > > >Some years back they sold cooling fans that included a > > >peltier-element (a diode running a DC current that cools on one side and > > >heats up on the other). The exess heat needs to be fanned away. This way > > >you should be able to effectively overclock a 486DX100 in a practical > > >manner. > > >> Well, do you still belive Overclocking etc. is still > > >> modern stuff talk ? See what you can do with your > > >> good old system: > > >> http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > > > Move up to a REAL OS... > > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > > # ###### > > ("LINUX" for those of you > > without fixed-width fonts) > > ---------------------------------------- > > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > > > Slackware Mailing List: > > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 16 23:08:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <199911162329.PAA12374@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19991116182652.223fc6a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991116230851.21278c2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Zane, BASIC in ROM is a LOT more usefull than UNIX in ROM IMHO. Joe At 03:29 PM 11/16/99 -0800, you wrote: >> If he's getting Unix and doesn't have a disk in it then he has the SE >> (Software Engineering) ROM installed. > >Whoa, , I just assumed he was getting the very minimalist OS that's >in ROM on a bare system. Gee, why did mine have to come with BASIC instead >of that! > > Zane > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 16 21:39:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: TI99: Is the following true? Message-ID: <199911170339.WAA05386@world.std.com> Hey, I was wondering...could any of you folks help me give a value to a Convergent Technologies workSlate? It has a printer with it...but as of yet I havent found the power cords....I bought like a truckload of old computer stuff the other day (the collectors dream man...tons of stuff), that had a bunch of Sinclair 1000s, boxed 16k ram for the Sinclairs, Boxed TI/99s, and a bunch of other stuff I havent went through. Anyway, the workSlate was the only thing I had never seen before! I am really curious about it! I hope to find the power cords and such and get it to working. But right now, I just need to know what kind of value it is. Could you help me? Thanks! Mark Saarinen From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 16 21:40:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. Message-ID: <199911170340.WAA05794@world.std.com> For laughs I've been running a 486dx/33 (intel) at 66mhz in a dell box. The only mod if the heat sink is a moose I had and its attached to the chip using a BEo filled thermal epoxy. Runs cool and it's solid. I've tried that in a socket5 Mb I have using a 486dx2/50 at 100mhz, seems fine after three months. The cooling is not big a problem. I consider both abuse, but hey I have a few. Besides I've done that before with 8085s and Z80s with no ill effects. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 16 21:40:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: TI99: Is the following true? Message-ID: <199911170340.WAA06063@world.std.com> used the Turbo they had for z80 and later PCs, in that you could edit, run interpretively and then compile the working result. Oh, Qbasic also called runtime subroutines from the library for floating point math (and other things too). Allison < <> ---------- <> From: Andy Frueh[SMTP:andyfrueh@hotmail.com] <> Reply To: ti99@theriver.com <> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 4:16 PM <> To: ti99@theriver.com <> Subject: RE: TI99: Is the following true? <> <> Hmmm...I guess where I'm getting confused is the way it handles floating <> point...It DOES "do it" but it does it by converting it to an integer, <> right? I guess that's what non-coprocessor machines must do, too. <> <> Oh well, 3 and 4 are still true, and I really dispute this is a "real" <> story, even if elements of it ARE true. Especially that quote! :-) <> <> I don't have the magazine to look this up. Can we get more info on this <> BASIC? <> <> <> >From: "Yates, Ben" <> >Reply-To: ti99@theriver.com <> >To: "'ti99@theriver.com'" <> >Subject: RE: TI99: Is the following true? <> >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:07:34 -0500 <> > <> >Look in the July/August 81 99'er magazine. Marinchip created a 9900 base <> >system. <> >To answer your questions: <> >The 9900 cannot do floating point in hardware. Neither could the 8088 or <> >286 <> >without coprocessors. It emulates it in the ROM. <> >QBASIC WAS a basic that sold for $220 (find it in the above magazine). <> > <> > <> > > ---------- <> > > From: Andy Frueh[SMTP:andyfrueh@hotmail.com] <> > > Reply To: ti99@theriver.com <> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 4:02 PM <> > > To: ti99@theriver.com <> > > Subject: Re: TI99: Is the following true? <> > > <> > > 1. Who would name their computer PC/OT given what that means? <> > > 2. Can't the 9900 DO floating point? Why emulate it? <> > > 3. When has a governor EVER cared about technology...or publicly made <> >such <> > > <> > > silly comments? <> > > 4. The R in RISC means Reduced, not rinkydink <> > > 5. AFAIK, QBASIC is a MS program, and not something that runs on a <> 9900 <> > > <> > > Based on that, I'd guess the following is NOT true. :-) <> > > <> > > <> > > >From: "Yates, Ben" <> > > >Reply-To: ti99@theriver.com <> > > >To: "'ti99@TheRiver.com'" <> > > >Subject: TI99: Is the following true? <> > > >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:46:43 -0500 <> > > > <> > > >from http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/section2_46_5.html <> > > > <> > > > <<...>> <<...>> <<...>> <<...>> <<...>> <> > > >Next: Dear Jim Meadlock... Up: AutoBits Previous: CAD: The Final <> > > > <> > > >Marinchip Defeats IBM PC/AT In Benchmark <> > > > <> > > >Mill Valley, California, Mayday 1986. <> > > >John Walker, President of Marinchip Systems Ltd., announced today <> that <> > > the <> > > >Marinchip 9900-based PC/OT (Personal Computer/Obsolete Technology) <> > > >resoundingly defeated the IBM PC/AT in an intense floating point <> > > benchmark, <> > > >even though the PC/AT was equipped with the 80287 math coprocessor. <> > > >The benchmark was an optical ray tracing program involving primaril <> > > >floating point computations, including evaluation of trigonometric <> > > >functions. The Marinchip 9900 PC/OT executed the program in 69.32 <> > > seconds, <> > > >while the IBM PC/AT took 93.79 seconds to execute the same program. <> > > >``Our PC/OT executed this real-world engineering program 26 percent <> > > faster <> > > >than IBM's much vaunted PC/AT, even though our 9900 processor was <> > > operating <> > > >at 2 megahertz, one third the speed of the PC/AT's 80286 CPU, and th <> > > fact <> > > >that the PC/OT was emulating floating point in software instead of <> >using <> > > a <> > > >mathematics coprocessor. This benchmark vindicates our RISC <> (Rinkydink <> > > >Instruction Set Computer) architecture, and clearly demonstrates th <> > > >superiority of our proprietary QBASIC language for scientific <> > > >applications.'', said John Walker. <> > > >The IBM PC/AT benchmark was run in Lattice C version 2.14, using th <> > > ``-P'' <> > > >memory model (large code, small data). The standard Lattice 2.14 <> >library <> > > >was <> > > >used. The results calculated by the Marinchip PC/OT and the IBM PC/A <> > > >agreed <> > > >to 15 decimal places. <> > > >Commenting on the results, California Governor George Dookmayjeun <> said, <> > > >``It <> > > >just goes to show you how a bunch of clean living Californians can <> beat <> > > the <> > > >spit out of those drug-soaked greasy Florida scumbags. Look, I don't <> >give <> > > a <> > > >flying fork what you quote me as saying, but please spell my freakin <> > > name <> > > >right!''. <<...>> <> > > > <> > > >Editor: John Walker <> > > > <> > > > <> > > <> > > ______________________________________________________ <> > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com <> > > <> > <> > <> <> ______________________________________________________ <> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com <> < From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 16 22:18:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: TI99: Is the following true? Message-ID: <008201bf30b2$cb501bc0$0400c0a8@winbook> I never learned to like the CBASIC and others of its pseudocoded ilk. The MBASIC was OK, though, and when it was finally the way you wanted, "it" could be compiled with BASCOM, which generated fairly decent code, even assembler if you wanted. It could be linked with output from M80 as well. You could even generate code with which to band-aid together output from their (MS) Fortran and COBOL using either MBASIC =>BASCOM=> (object linkable with L80) + output from compilers => thereby genrating interactive code from stuff that was originally designed for batch. That was more common than you might think. It was, after all, customary to scrounge useable FTN and COBOL from the guys down the hall. My ex-partner made LOTS of dough using CP/M and these various compilers to generate useable output from long-obsolete but still functional code written for the mainframe down the hall. I guess that's why he got the big bucks. It was not unusual to have the payroll running on the micro while the figured out why they couldn't make it work on the behemoth. Even I was fairly impressed with the selection of stuff Billy and his buddies turned out! Dick Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 8:48 PM Subject: RE: TI99: Is the following true? > >Ah, kids! > >Prior to the advent of the PC in 1981: > >Qbasic was a MS product befor they became a OS house. They used to be >heavy in languages and big apps. DRI (AKA CPM) was know for the OSs. > >MS offered languages and apps like Multiplan for APPLE (6502), 9900, >8080/z80, 16032, z8000 and I'm certain I've forgotten a few. > >So anywho, Qbasic was the MS answer to C-basic which was a semi compiled >non line number dependent basic. Qbasic is not fully compiled to native >machine assembly language. I know this as I still maintain a PC app >written in Qbasic (as recently as last week)! Qbasic also tried to copy >the Borland "IDE" used the Turbolanguage here> they had for z80 and later PCs, in that you could edit, run >interpretively and then compile the working result. > >Oh, Qbasic also called runtime subroutines from the library for floating >point math (and other things too). > >Allison > > > >< ><> ---------- ><> From: Andy Frueh[SMTP:andyfrueh@hotmail.com] ><> Reply To: ti99@theriver.com ><> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 4:16 PM ><> To: ti99@theriver.com ><> Subject: RE: TI99: Is the following true? ><> ><> Hmmm...I guess where I'm getting confused is the way it handles floating ><> point...It DOES "do it" but it does it by converting it to an integer, ><> right? I guess that's what non-coprocessor machines must do, too. ><> ><> Oh well, 3 and 4 are still true, and I really dispute this is a "real" ><> story, even if elements of it ARE true. Especially that quote! :-) ><> ><> I don't have the magazine to look this up. Can we get more info on this ><> BASIC? ><> ><> ><> >From: "Yates, Ben" ><> >Reply-To: ti99@theriver.com ><> >To: "'ti99@theriver.com'" ><> >Subject: RE: TI99: Is the following true? ><> >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:07:34 -0500 ><> > ><> >Look in the July/August 81 99'er magazine. Marinchip created a 9900 base ><> >system. ><> >To answer your questions: ><> >The 9900 cannot do floating point in hardware. Neither could the 8088 or ><> >286 ><> >without coprocessors. It emulates it in the ROM. ><> >QBASIC WAS a basic that sold for $220 (find it in the above magazine). ><> > ><> > ><> > > ---------- ><> > > From: Andy Frueh[SMTP:andyfrueh@hotmail.com] ><> > > Reply To: ti99@theriver.com ><> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 4:02 PM ><> > > To: ti99@theriver.com ><> > > Subject: Re: TI99: Is the following true? ><> > > ><> > > 1. Who would name their computer PC/OT given what that means? ><> > > 2. Can't the 9900 DO floating point? Why emulate it? ><> > > 3. When has a governor EVER cared about technology...or publicly made ><> >such ><> > > ><> > > silly comments? ><> > > 4. The R in RISC means Reduced, not rinkydink ><> > > 5. AFAIK, QBASIC is a MS program, and not something that runs on a ><> 9900 ><> > > ><> > > Based on that, I'd guess the following is NOT true. :-) ><> > > ><> > > ><> > > >From: "Yates, Ben" ><> > > >Reply-To: ti99@theriver.com ><> > > >To: "'ti99@TheRiver.com'" ><> > > >Subject: TI99: Is the following true? ><> > > >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:46:43 -0500 ><> > > > ><> > > >from http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/section2_46_5.html ><> > > > ><> > > > <<...>> <<...>> <<...>> <<...>> <<...>> ><> > > >Next: Dear Jim Meadlock... Up: AutoBits Previous: CAD: The Final ><> > > > ><> > > >Marinchip Defeats IBM PC/AT In Benchmark ><> > > > ><> > > >Mill Valley, California, Mayday 1986. ><> > > >John Walker, President of Marinchip Systems Ltd., announced today ><> that ><> > > the ><> > > >Marinchip 9900-based PC/OT (Personal Computer/Obsolete Technology) ><> > > >resoundingly defeated the IBM PC/AT in an intense floating point ><> > > benchmark, ><> > > >even though the PC/AT was equipped with the 80287 math coprocessor. ><> > > >The benchmark was an optical ray tracing program involving primaril ><> > > >floating point computations, including evaluation of trigonometric ><> > > >functions. The Marinchip 9900 PC/OT executed the program in 69.32 ><> > > seconds, ><> > > >while the IBM PC/AT took 93.79 seconds to execute the same program. ><> > > >``Our PC/OT executed this real-world engineering program 26 percent ><> > > faster ><> > > >than IBM's much vaunted PC/AT, even though our 9900 processor was ><> > > operating ><> > > >at 2 megahertz, one third the speed of the PC/AT's 80286 CPU, and th ><> > > fact ><> > > >that the PC/OT was emulating floating point in software instead of ><> >using ><> > > a ><> > > >mathematics coprocessor. This benchmark vindicates our RISC ><> (Rinkydink ><> > > >Instruction Set Computer) architecture, and clearly demonstrates th ><> > > >superiority of our proprietary QBASIC language for scientific ><> > > >applications.'', said John Walker. ><> > > >The IBM PC/AT benchmark was run in Lattice C version 2.14, using th ><> > > ``-P'' ><> > > >memory model (large code, small data). The standard Lattice 2.14 ><> >library ><> > > >was ><> > > >used. The results calculated by the Marinchip PC/OT and the IBM PC/A ><> > > >agreed ><> > > >to 15 decimal places. ><> > > >Commenting on the results, California Governor George Dookmayjeun ><> said, ><> > > >``It ><> > > >just goes to show you how a bunch of clean living Californians can ><> beat ><> > > the ><> > > >spit out of those drug-soaked greasy Florida scumbags. Look, I don't ><> >give ><> > > a ><> > > >flying fork what you quote me as saying, but please spell my freakin ><> > > name ><> > > >right!''. <<...>> ><> > > > ><> > > >Editor: John Walker ><> > > > ><> > > > ><> > > ><> > > ______________________________________________________ ><> > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ><> > > ><> > ><> > ><> ><> ______________________________________________________ ><> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ><> >< > From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Nov 16 23:24:31 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( In-Reply-To: <19991116042240.6041.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: On 16 Nov 1999 ndiablo@diablonet.net wrote: > I was looking at your message and a few other things came to mind.. I should > really condense all my thoughts _before_ writing :) > > (1) I'd highly doubt the VS2000 graphics board would fit in the 3100.. I > tried to check the size of a VS2000 memory board once (since my VS3100's > failed and its only got 4 meg now) and it didnt fit, so i'd imagine it > would be more or less the same scenario with the video card. > My memory served me right... The VS2000 graphics board is a VS40X 4 plane, and the VS3100 is a VS40X 8 plane. The boards are the same size/shape/ connector location, and the VS3100 recognizes the 4 plane board, but reports an error (Probably because the firmware is downlevel). I will try the 8 plane in the 2000 sometime soon. > (2) I dont know if you'd want to bother running Ultrix on the thing; you > could either get a free license of OpenVMS 7.2 (newest version) from > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist, or you could run NetBSD on the system, > which I gather runs _very_ well now that SCSI DMA has been implemented > in the newest devel kernels. Using either of those routes, you'd at > least get something pretty modern... Going back to Ultrix would mean > digging up an old version with probably no support at all.. I gather > that Ultrix wasnt a particularly great implementation of UNIX, either, > however i've never actually used it myself so I guess I can't speak > authoritively on the issue. > Unfortunately, I don't like VMS (duck and cover)... NetBSD is slowly getting there, but there wasn't any support for the console port the last time I looked. I have Ultrix 3.1, but before I figure out how to attach the TK50 drive, I wonder if it will run... I'm still looking for the Ultrix Window System 3.1 (or 3.0) though... I'm willing to trade VMS license PAKs (real ones) for a variety of layered products for a UWS 3.0/3.1 license and TK50. Besides, I like running apropriate OSs on old machines... > -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) > > BTW, I just finished get NetBSD netbooted onto the machine... I pulled the 8 plane board, and wiggled the memory board, and the memory error went away... More playing is necessary... THanks, clint From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Wed Nov 17 00:00:57 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Famous Bill Gates Harvard ASR33 Clones! In-Reply-To: <006201bf308b$ce8b8260$6843a4cf@default> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, John B wrote: > I don't think it really matters if Bill Gates used one. I am sure he used > many other things we all use... and possibly things we would refuse to use > ;-) I'm putting a couple of rolls of toilet paper on eBay right now, "As used by Bill Gates in the Pre-Microsoft Days..." From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 17 00:21:04 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Old Computer stuff References: <19991116.141616.-203571.0.pmarzolf@juno.com> Message-ID: <38324950.D82FC49D@rain.org> Hi, I saw your message on the Classic Computer List, and am curious about the Lobo Drives Max 80 computers. I have a couple of Max 80 computers, but am missing the Lobo HD. What are you asking for that system? Thanks. Marvin pmarzolf@juno.com wrote: > > From: > Paul V. Marzolf > 2761 Morningside Dr. > Salt Lake City, Ut. 84124 > Phone: (801) 277 7556 > Email: pmarzolf@juno.com > > I don't know what I'm doing here but here it goes. > > I am looking for new homes for all the old computer stuff I > have collected in my 40 years of working in the computer busness. > I am a person that don't like to through any think away. > I have hardware, books, manuals, magazines, and software. > Here is a list of the hardware: > ***LIST OF HARDWARE AND DOCUMENTATION*** > > COMPUTERS > --------- > 2 LOBO'S MAX80 - 5MHz Z-80B PROCESSOR 64k RAM. CP/M INCLUDED > ALL DISK INTERFACE BUILT IN. PLUG IN ANY COMBINATION OF > 5 1/4" FLOPPIES, 8" FLOPPIES, AND WINCHESTER DISK. > CENTRONICS-TYPE PARALLEL PORT. BUILT-IN CLOCK/CALENDAR > WITH BATTERY BACKUP, AND BUFFERED I/O EXPANDER PORT. > > 1 BOX OF DOCUMENTATION > DUAL 8" DISK DRIVES (UNIVAC DRIVES) > LOBO 5" HARD DISK DRIVE > MONITOR > > ARC X-TURBO > FLIP TOP CASE, 640K 8MHZ MOTHER BOARD, CLOCK/CALENDAR, TWO > PAR, 2 SER, GAME PORT, 4 DRIVE CONTROLLER (RIBBON CABLES), > 135W POWER SUPPLY, COLOR BOARD(RGB), 83 KEY KEYBOARD, TAXAN > 415 MONITOR, THE HEART OF THE ARC X-TURBO IS THE INTEL > 8088-2 MICRO-PROCESSOR USED IN THE IBM PERSONAL COMPUTER. > TWO 5 1/4' FULL SIZE DISK DRIVES. > TWO 5 1/4" HALF SIZE HIGH DENSITY EXTERNAL DISK DRIVES > > COMPAQ SUITE CASE PORTABLE (INTEL 8088) > THE KEYBOARD IS THE LID. HAS BUILT IN MONITOR AND 2 > 5" FLOPPIES. THE SIZE OF THE CARRY AROUND IS 16" X 20" > X 9". > > OTHER COMPUTER HARDWARE > ----------------------- > POWER SUPPLY FOR APPLE IIE > MICROSOFT Z80 SOFTCARD - A PERIFHERAL FOR THE APPLE IIE WITH > CP/M AND MICROSOFT BASIC ON 5" DISKETTE. > > EMPTY BOX FOR FULL SIZE 5" DISK DRIVE (FOR TRS-80) > DUAL 5" DISK DRIVE UNIT > 2 - DUAL 8" DISK DRIVE UNITS (UNIVAC) > 2 - 8" DISK DRIVES > > DIRECT/ACOUSTICALLY COUPLED MODEM LEX-12 > 2 - UNIVERSAL DATA SYSTEMS 103 LP MODEM (ORIGINATE/ANSWER) > DIAL PHONE TO USE WITH ABOVE MODEM > > PRINTERS > UNVAC SERIAL PRINTER > > DOT MATRIX PRINTERS > CITIZEN 2000GX > PANASONIC KX-P1080i > PANASONIC KX-P2023 > UNVAC SERIAL PRINTER > GORILLA/BANANA > > POWER SUPPLY HARDWARE. B6 > ***BOX 9*** > > HARDWARE ACCESSORIES > -------------------- > ELBO ARM FOR COMPUTER. B9 > HEAVY DUTY THAT CLAMP ONTO A DESK AND > HOLDS A MONITOR AND KEYBOARD. > > TIP TABLE MONTIOR STAND. B9 > > 3 PRINTER STANDS AND PAPER HOLDER. B9 > > 2 5" DISKETTE TEAR HOLDER. B9 > > If interested I can send info about the computer stuff. Just > ask???? > > It would be better for me if any response would use my > E-mail address to talk to me. > > Hope someone will be interested. > PAUL > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 17 00:33:25 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Old Computer stuff References: <19991116.141616.-203571.0.pmarzolf@juno.com> Message-ID: <38324C35.4197D71E@rain.org> Pardons to the list, I changed the address, and it still went to the list . From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed Nov 17 02:49:15 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 References: Message-ID: <38326C0B.E717B0E2@softstar.it> Hello all, I have the opportunity to save an IBM 4381 with lots of disks and tapes; it is currently running VM ESA 2.1 and also has two 8232 Ethernet units. With a friend we would like to acquire it and put it on Internet with free accounts to requesters. As you probably know this machine is quite big so I started lobbying my University for space, that would also get power supply and 34Mbit internet connection ;-). The size it prohibitively big for a a single hobbyist but also in the campus floor space it is not free; I must come up with a minimum space requirement for a working system. I don't have any in field experience with IBM mainframe internals and have considered this configuration - CPU one processor - 3420 tape - 8232 Ethernet controller - 3990 control Unit - 1 disk string (3 disks or less but need work on the cabinet to separate the disk subsystems) My questions are: - not planning to use SNA or 3270, at least initially, do we need to set up the 3745 FEP? - is the above configuration reasonable for a minimum system? - tightly packing all the devices to fit in a 15 square meter room will cause heating or other problems? - how may would be interested in accessing the machine? - anybody willing to offer knowledge? IBM was not very helpfully to put it kindly. If you are interested in some way please email me at save4381@softstar.it. I have set up this specific account in order to collect, hopefully, lots of emails telling to save the machine. I will pass them to the person responsible for the floor space trying to convince him that we MUST do it. Cheers e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 17 07:13:41 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <199911170340.WAA05794@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199911171214.NAA12396@mail2.siemens.de> > For laughs I've been running a 486dx/33 (intel) at 66mhz in a dell box. > The only mod if the heat sink is a moose I had and its attached to the > chip using a BEo filled thermal epoxy. Runs cool and it's solid. 486dx33 at 66 MHz ? Well, I don't want to be picky, but wouldn't this result in 66 MHz CPU bus ? Sounds a bit off for 486 Boards. > I've tried that in a socket5 Mb I have using a 486dx2/50 at 100mhz, seems > fine after three months. The cooling is not big a problem. Jep, the most notable CPU is still the AMD 5x86 (486dx4/133 with extended cache) - I have them running at 4x40 MHz == 160 MHz without any problem - only for high load apps the cooling must be presen, a Linux (web) server can even run without a fan. > I consider both abuse, but hey I have a few. Besides I've done that before > with 8085s and Z80s with no ill effects. I found it hard to run NMOS 6502 on more than 1.3 times their nominal speed. Gruss H. P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Nov 17 07:02:32 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: FA (eBay) SBC collection: KIM-1, SYM, TK-80, and... lots of freebies Message-ID: <00f801bf30fc$039f8120$75f438cb@SLIPSTICK> Hi everyone I've not been following the list for some time, so please - replies to my personal email at adavie@mad.scientist.com I'm preparing for a planned interstate move sometime (as soon as possible), really. Everything must go! My prime reason for writing is to point to my current eBay auction of my Single Board Computer collection - comprising a KIM-1, a SYM, and a TK-80. There's a photo with the description, and if you're interested, the URL is... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=202377636 As I'm trying to cut down on the amount of stuff I'll have to move, I'm offering FREE to any worthwhile home some of the following... PDP 11/23PLUS, with assorted disk packs, monitors, tapes, etc. XEROX (unknown model) various interesting old computers, tapes TRS-80 Colour computer in original box. ... and lots more, really. I do have some machines which may be up for sale - or trade - please write to me if you would like notification of when I will get to these. These include Exidy Sorcerer lot (don't panic, Doug). - including 2 sorcerers, several disk drives, and hundreds of floppies. Australian Microbee computers (lots). (possibly) a Dulmont Magnum (possibly) a Datanumerics DL-8A Creativision with BASIC cartridge, tape unit. Hanimex Pencil II Sharp (sorry, model unknown - its buried in the garage) - takes magnetic bubble memory cartridges; of which I have a few. Tradewise, I'll be looking for a Hewlett-Packard HP-65 calculator, in particular. When I say (possibly) this means I basically know these machines are unique, and they're worth a lot to me. But, money is needed for the move. So... I'm based in Sydney (Australia). Anybody caring to drop in will probably leave with lots of interesting old junk! I have a heap of books/magazines, including technical documents for some interesting machines, such as the Microbee. Basically, I'm a pack-rat (aren't we all?) but have decided I really need to simplify my life. I hope this finds you all well, and enjoying your collecting! Cheers A -- Andrew Davie adavie@mad.scientist.com // adavie@comcen.com.au // adavie@bde.com.au Museum of Soviet Calculators http://members.xoom.com/adavie/soviet.html Slide Rule Trading Post http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/ Java Slide Rule http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/javaslide/javaslide.html From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Nov 17 08:15:34 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: TI99: Is the following true? Message-ID: <01BF30DC.4E6259F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > So anywho, Qbasic was the MS answer to C-basic which was a semi compiled > non line number dependent basic. Qbasic is not fully compiled to native > machine assembly language. I know this as I still maintain a PC app > written in Qbasic (as recently as last week)! Qbasic also tried to copy > the Borland "IDE" used the Turbo language here> they had for z80 and later PCs, in that you could edit, run > interpretively and then compile the working result. IMHO, an outstanding piece of software. I still use it when I need a quick and dirty solution. Steve Robertson From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 17 10:29:13 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: TI99 another issue. In-Reply-To: <01BF30DC.4E6259F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <199911171530.QAA01694@mail2.siemens.de> Does anybody here on the list know about the TI 99/2 or /8 models ? Or own one ? I just remember photographs from the early 80s. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From doug at sontek.com Wed Nov 17 09:38:30 1999 From: doug at sontek.com (Douglas A. Peckham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: SWTPC 8k Basic / Vintage Software Policy Message-ID: <808729E7DAB4D2118FFB0060979C30F00E06A9@PEGASUS> Hello all, I have been watching this list for some time now and have enjoyed the enthusiasm with which people pursue the preservation of the classic machines. My personal project has been restoring a SWTPC 6800 to satisfy my nostalgic needs and I have gotten it up and running solidly. The next step for me in this quest is to locate a copy of the BASIC interpreter I used back then - SWTPC's 8k BASIC. I am willing to take it in any format (i.e. cassette tape, paper listing, disk file, paper tape, ...). Any help along these lines would be greatly appreciated. This brings me to a related second question. What is the consensus on copyright policy for vintage software. I am happy to pay for the software I acquire, but it's obviously more complicated with software written 20+ years ago. Any advice on this would be appreciated and I apologize if this topic has been covered before. Doug Peckham dpeckham@ucsd.edu From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Wed Nov 17 09:53:59 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <199911171214.NAA12396@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that > silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. Considering that the aluminum heat-exchanger/cold-plates from my last water-cooled design weigh more than 7lbs total, I don't think I'm going to be re-implementing my design in silver any time too soon... Aaron From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Nov 17 09:44:50 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" at "Nov 16, 1999 10:24:31 pm" Message-ID: <199911171553.KAA14105@pechter.dyndns.org> > Unfortunately, I don't like VMS (duck and cover)... Boo hiss 8-) > NetBSD is slowly > getting there, but there wasn't any support for the console port the > last time I looked. I have Ultrix 3.1, but before I figure out > how to attach the TK50 drive, I wonder if it will run... I'm still > looking for the Ultrix Window System 3.1 (or 3.0) though... I'm willing > to trade VMS license PAKs (real ones) for a variety of layered products > for a UWS 3.0/3.1 license and TK50. > > Besides, I like running apropriate OSs on old machines... > > > -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) > > > > > > BTW, I just finished get NetBSD netbooted onto the machine... I pulled > the 8 plane board, and wiggled the memory board, and the memory error > went away... More playing is necessary... > > THanks, > clint > I just picked up an external SCSI TK50 unit in case with power supply. As is --- anyone interested in it drop me a line at pechter@monmouth.com before it ends up on E-Bay. I've got other scsi tapes and I'm going to be loading VMS from CD so I don't need it. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 17 10:04:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: VAXStation 3100 problems :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > (1) I'd highly doubt the VS2000 graphics board would fit in the 3100.. I > > tried to check the size of a VS2000 memory board once (since my VS3100's > > failed and its only got 4 meg now) and it didnt fit, so i'd imagine it > > would be more or less the same scenario with the video card. I would not even try it. While connectors and locations may be the same I highly doubt they are similar. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 17 10:11:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <199911171214.NAA12396@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > For laughs I've been running a 486dx/33 (intel) at 66mhz in a dell box. > > The only mod if the heat sink is a moose I had and its attached to the > > chip using a BEo filled thermal epoxy. Runs cool and it's solid. > > 486dx33 at 66 MHz ? Well, I don't want to be picky, but wouldn't > this result in 66 MHz CPU bus ? Sounds a bit off for 486 Boards. ISA not PCI. The bus is still cpuclock /n and n in that case is 8. > > > I've tried that in a socket5 Mb I have using a 486dx2/50 at 100mhz, seems > > fine after three months. The cooling is not big a problem. > > Jep, the most notable CPU is still the AMD 5x86 (486dx4/133 with > extended cache) - I have them running at 4x40 MHz == 160 MHz without > any problem - only for high load apps the cooling must be presen, > a Linux (web) server can even run without a fan. I have about 8 of them running here at work including one as a NT3.51 server all at 133mhz. Very good machines! > I found it hard to run NMOS 6502 on more than 1.3 times their nominal speed. The 8085s and z80s would run that fast but things like propagation times don't shrink so the access times and all do not scale well. For example take a 4mhz z80 to 6mhz and you better have memory that is faster than what would be needed first at glance. Same thing pushing 8085H-2 (6mhz, to 8mhz). Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 17 10:29:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic References: <01BF30DC.4E6259F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3832D7F0.32830179@rain.org> Just got a great find. A friend of mine is cleaning out his garage, and among the computer related items was a "Product Information" binder that contains history, press releases, dealer information, product flyers, etc. for Vector Graphic. From a releases dated 02/14/80 to Customer Sales reps.: Sales Objective for year ending June 30, 1980 - $15 million Year ending June 30, 1979 - 6 million Year ending June 30, 1978 - 2 million Year ending June 30, 1977 - 400 K Location of facility - Westlake Village, CA Number of square feet - 40,000 Number of employees - 140 Systems shipped: Vector 1, Vector 1+, Vector 1++ - 1,500 systems Vector MZ, System B, Memorite 2 - 4,500 systems Vector 3030 - delivery scheduled for March 1, 1980 Company officers Lore Harp - Founder and President Dr. Robert Harp - Founder, Technical Director Carole Ely - Founder, VP of Marketing, Secretary-Treasurer They also have a timeline that seems to indicate their first shipped product was 8k memory dated 9/76. From helicopterman at webtv.net Wed Nov 17 10:49:26 1999 From: helicopterman at webtv.net (helicopterman@webtv.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Marks response [ebay reaches new low] Message-ID: <19871-3832DC96-332@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> hi Mark, thank you for replying to my post. I AGREE WITH EACH STATEMENT YOU MAKE. ================================== on the other hand the bidders are happy. question: what would you do with 12 Univac side panels in 1999? i couldnt bring myself to put them in the dumpster. i have lots of trs-80 stuff in complete condition and i recently sold a kim-1 in mint condition which i purchased new in 75. i can store these smaller units but i could not continue to store the file 0. the file 0 took up 5 or 6 hundred square feet. in the early 90's i had to move from a commercial building to a small apartment. the file 0 weighed several tons:)) i stored it from 72 to early 90's because i loved old computers too. there was no ebay or collectors accessible to me then. i had no choice but to get rid of it like i did. IT BROKE MY HEART TO SCRAP IT. i would gladly have given it free to any purist. frankly though who would have been willing to transport 11 monster cabinets weighing several tons from Louisville to their back porch? i assume you have seen my Univac page where i am trying to save my memories and pictures of the few pieces that escaped the junk yard for interested people. it is at: http://members.tripod.com/~Helicopterman/blank-7.html it cost me 60.00 to have one panel cut into pieces and additional for the documents. at 5.00 per auction i about break even. i am not selling the "featureless" pieces for a profit but only to keep the file 0 memory alive. =====Ed From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Nov 17 11:26:04 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Marks response [ebay reaches new low] In-Reply-To: <19871-3832DC96-332@storefull-147.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 helicopterman@webtv.net wrote: (re: slicing up a Univac File 0 system...) > the file 0 took up 5 or 6 hundred square feet. in the early 90's i had > to move from a commercial building to a small apartment. > the file 0 weighed several tons:)) > > i stored it from 72 to early 90's because i loved old computers too. > there was no ebay or collectors accessible to me then. i had no choice > but to get rid of it like i did. > > IT BROKE MY HEART TO SCRAP IT. > > i would gladly have given it free to any purist. frankly though who > would have been willing to transport 11 monster cabinets weighing > several tons from Louisville to their back porch? So, sadly I take it you were unfamiliar with Paul Pierce's collection (found at http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/index.html). -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Nov 17 11:49:51 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <8025682C.00617A02.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >>I passed one up a couple of weeks ago. Seller was asking 95 pounds, was >>prepared to sell for 80, but no less - she claimed the Windows 95 >>installation on the hard drive was worth that. I told her just what I >>would do if I got a machine with Windows 95 on it... (hint: it involves >>a disk partitioning tool and a Linux distribution kit) >> >>Philip. >> > Are you sure this was a P70 (which usually shipped with 386s) and not a P75 > (which usually shipped with 486 or better processors)? I tried a Win '95 > installation on my 4MB RAM/120 MB HD/386 P70, and from "power on" to "ready > to use" took over two minutes. Trying to open any windows or run any > applications caused a frenzy of drive activity (reading and writing to the > swapfile, I suspect). I can't imagine anyone actually using a P70 running > Win '95. Running Windows 3.11 though, they were decent portables for their > time - nice crisp display, good keyboard. Very capable "get some work done > in your hotel room" computers. No, I'm not sure, but I thought it was a P70. (I wouldn't have bought it for 80 quid even if I had known/believed it had a 486 in.) It was a briefcase-sized thing that stood vertically - the keyboard flapped down (or took off - can't remember) and the plasma panel tilted out a little. As for your performance problems, based on your description of the "flurry of drive activity" I suspect that it would work better with more memory. No, I didn't ask how much memory this thing had. Much as I like plasma displays, I am not sorry I didn't buy this one. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Nov 17 11:55:14 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? Message-ID: <8025682C.0062FDE1.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> [9370] > Mainframe? Yeah, I guess it could still be called that because of its > intended application to handle a whole enterprise plus it is a CMOS > implementation of the good ol' S/370 iron. However, its performance was > rather poor compared to IBM's newer AS/400 family launched about the same > time as or just before the 9370. I know that this is not very helpful but I think the 9370 was announced in 1987, since I saw stuff on it during my summer job at IBM that year, and not the previous year. I never saw anything about the AS/400 at that date, nor even during my summer job the following year (although that latter was building cash dispensers, so I was a little out of touch with the rest of IBM) Anyway, at the time I regarded it as a mini-mainframe. Mini because it didn't need a separate computer room (and was advertised on this basis), mainframe because it was still huge and packed full of IBM custom hybrids (which were probably built of IBM custom chips), as well as the 370 compatibility... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From pmarzolf at juno.com Wed Nov 17 11:54:58 1999 From: pmarzolf at juno.com (pmarzolf@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: Old Computer stuff Message-ID: <19991117.111634.-81691.0.pmarzolf@juno.com> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:21:04 -0800 Marvin writes: > > Hi, > > I saw your message on the Classic Computer List, and am curious > about the > Lobo Drives Max 80 computers. I have a couple of Max 80 computers, > but am > missing the Lobo HD. What are you asking for that system? Thanks. > > Marvin =====> I'm sorry I have already found homes for my Max80 stuff. The only think I have left is Univac duel 8" drives and 8" diskettes with old stuff on them and some blank ones. Sorry that I didn't have more. Paul > > pmarzolf@juno.com wrote: > > > > From: > > Paul V. Marzolf > > 2761 Morningside Dr. > > Salt Lake City, Ut. 84124 > > Phone: (801) 277 7556 > > Email: pmarzolf@juno.com > > > > I don't know what I'm doing here but here it goes. > > > > I am looking for new homes for all the old computer stuff I > > have collected in my 40 years of working in the computer busness. > > I am a person that don't like to through any think away. > > I have hardware, books, manuals, magazines, and software. > > Here is a list of the hardware: > > ***LIST OF HARDWARE AND DOCUMENTATION*** > > > > COMPUTERS > > --------- > > 2 LOBO'S MAX80 - 5MHz Z-80B PROCESSOR 64k RAM. CP/M INCLUDED > > ALL DISK INTERFACE BUILT IN. PLUG IN ANY COMBINATION OF > > 5 1/4" FLOPPIES, 8" FLOPPIES, AND WINCHESTER DISK. > > CENTRONICS-TYPE PARALLEL PORT. BUILT-IN CLOCK/CALENDAR > > WITH BATTERY BACKUP, AND BUFFERED I/O EXPANDER PORT. > > > > 1 BOX OF DOCUMENTATION > > DUAL 8" DISK DRIVES (UNIVAC DRIVES) > > LOBO 5" HARD DISK DRIVE > > MONITOR > > > > ARC X-TURBO > > FLIP TOP CASE, 640K 8MHZ MOTHER BOARD, CLOCK/CALENDAR, TWO > > PAR, 2 SER, GAME PORT, 4 DRIVE CONTROLLER (RIBBON CABLES), > > 135W POWER SUPPLY, COLOR BOARD(RGB), 83 KEY KEYBOARD, TAXAN > > 415 MONITOR, THE HEART OF THE ARC X-TURBO IS THE INTEL > > 8088-2 MICRO-PROCESSOR USED IN THE IBM PERSONAL COMPUTER. > > TWO 5 1/4' FULL SIZE DISK DRIVES. > > TWO 5 1/4" HALF SIZE HIGH DENSITY EXTERNAL DISK DRIVES > > > > COMPAQ SUITE CASE PORTABLE (INTEL 8088) > > THE KEYBOARD IS THE LID. HAS BUILT IN MONITOR AND 2 > > 5" FLOPPIES. THE SIZE OF THE CARRY AROUND IS 16" X 20" > > X 9". > > > > OTHER COMPUTER HARDWARE > > ----------------------- > > POWER SUPPLY FOR APPLE IIE > > MICROSOFT Z80 SOFTCARD - A PERIFHERAL FOR THE APPLE IIE WITH > > CP/M AND MICROSOFT BASIC ON 5" DISKETTE. > > > > EMPTY BOX FOR FULL SIZE 5" DISK DRIVE (FOR TRS-80) > > DUAL 5" DISK DRIVE UNIT > > 2 - DUAL 8" DISK DRIVE UNITS (UNIVAC) > > 2 - 8" DISK DRIVES > > > > DIRECT/ACOUSTICALLY COUPLED MODEM LEX-12 > > 2 - UNIVERSAL DATA SYSTEMS 103 LP MODEM (ORIGINATE/ANSWER) > > DIAL PHONE TO USE WITH ABOVE MODEM > > > > PRINTERS > > UNVAC SERIAL PRINTER > > > > DOT MATRIX PRINTERS > > CITIZEN 2000GX > > PANASONIC KX-P1080i > > PANASONIC KX-P2023 > > UNVAC SERIAL PRINTER > > GORILLA/BANANA > > > > POWER SUPPLY HARDWARE. B6 > > ***BOX 9*** > > > > HARDWARE ACCESSORIES > > -------------------- > > ELBO ARM FOR COMPUTER. B9 > > HEAVY DUTY THAT CLAMP ONTO A DESK AND > > HOLDS A MONITOR AND KEYBOARD. > > > > TIP TABLE MONTIOR STAND. B9 > > > > 3 PRINTER STANDS AND PAPER HOLDER. B9 > > > > 2 5" DISKETTE TEAR HOLDER. B9 > > > > If interested I can send info about the computer stuff. Just > > ask???? > > > > It would be better for me if any response would use my > > E-mail address to talk to me. > > > > Hope someone will be interested. > > PAUL > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Nov 17 12:24:39 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:34 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. Message-ID: <8025682C.00653DA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that > silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. Not quite accurate, Hans. Silver and Copper are way better thermal conductors than Alumin(i)um, but there's not much to choose between the two of them. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Nov 17 12:33:08 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? In-Reply-To: <8025682C.0062FDE1.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19991117132002.00aefa40@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:55 PM 11/17/99 +0000, Philip.Belben@pgen.com said something like: > > > > >[9370] > >> Mainframe? Yeah, I guess it could still be called that because of its >> intended application to handle a whole enterprise plus it is a CMOS >> implementation of the good ol' S/370 iron. However, its performance was >> rather poor compared to IBM's newer AS/400 family launched about the same >> time as or just before the 9370. > >I know that this is not very helpful but I think the 9370 was announced in >1987, >since I saw stuff on it during my summer job at IBM that year, and not the >previous year. I never saw anything about the AS/400 at that date, nor even >during my summer job the following year (although that latter was building cash >dispensers, so I was a little out of touch with the rest of IBM) I wasn't sure exactly when the AS/400 came out except that around the late 80's there was comments about them being able to certainly outrun the 9370. I figured they were somewhat close in time released. I know the 9370 was released for production in '87 as the one I have was told to us as being the very first sold. SN is (mumble)0001. We received it in late 1987. > >Anyway, at the time I regarded it as a mini-mainframe. Mini because it didn't >need a separate computer room (and was advertised on this basis), mainframe >because it was still huge and packed full of IBM custom hybrids (which were >probably built of IBM custom chips), as well as the 370 compatibility... Good description. I was thinking along the same lines when trying to describe it to visitors. Indeed it is full of the custom devices. It is the CMOS implementation of the S/370 architecture. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Nov 17 12:47:39 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <8025682C.00653DA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991117124739.0097ead0@207.207.0.212> Besides the CPU, what other chips need to be chilled to over-clock? The Cache? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 17 13:02:43 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: References: <199911171214.NAA12396@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991117140243.009b71f0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Aaron Christopher Finney may have mentioned these words: > >On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > >> P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that >> silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. > >Considering that the aluminum heat-exchanger/cold-plates from my last >water-cooled design weigh more than 7lbs total, I don't think I'm going to >be re-implementing my design in silver any time too soon... Aw, c'mon! By my (admittedly rough) calculations, that's only about $510USD worth of silver (at $5/troy oz spot price). Isn't your hobby worth that? ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 17 12:12:49 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Would you take my PDP-8I for ? Message-ID: <001001bf3128$c2cb00c0$3470e2d1@default> LOOKING FOR AN RM08 or..... Would be willing to trade me a transistor peripheral(s)for a major piece of equipment like a PDP-8I (mint, running of course) . I also have some major peripherals like the negibus floppy drive (Straight-8,8/S,8-I Sykes 7150 8" floppy), high speed paper tape and DF32 (I will only let the IC versions go). Don't get me wrong, I like the 8I... but I like the 8/S better. I am looking for any of these transistor peripherals: -- Type 451 card reader and control -- Type 451B fast card reader and control -- Type 450 card punch control for IBM Type 523 punch. -- Type 64 (later 645) Mohawk line printer and control -- Type 250 (RM08) serial magnetic drum -- Type 552 DECtape control -- Type 555 dual DECtape transport -- Type 57A magnetic tape control with IBM type 729 drive -- Type 580 magnetic tape system with one transport -- Type TC01 DECtape control for up to 8 TU55 transports. -- Type 251 drum (8-256 tracks, 8 sectors/track, 128 words/sector). -- Type 645 line printer control. -- Type 680 data communications system (allows 64 teletypes). ... well, maybe ;-) -- Type 338 Programmed Buffered Display (vector graphics). -- Type DF08 fixed head disk system -- Type BE01 OEM version of the TC01 (no blinking lights). -- Type BE03 dual TU55 drive for the TC01 or BE01. (I'm never going to know if I don't ask) john From Maddog1331 at aol.com Wed Nov 17 14:25:48 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, Amdek, HELP! Message-ID: <0.990c4ae1.2564694c@aol.com> Hey all...I am new to this classic computer collecting, but I have been buying and reselling systems for a few months now. Anyway, I recently acquired a Hyperion Passport (or is it a Passport Hyperion?), an Apricot, a workSlate, and some drives, and other stuff (diskettes, or things) that say Amdek on them. I am just looking on any information I can find on these! I am attempting to put a value on them, and am trying to decide which to keep, if any....I am running out of room it seems :-) Any help would be appreciated! Sincerely, Mark Saarinen From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Nov 17 14:49:53 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: DEC and misc stuff available Message-ID: <4.1.19991117122212.00ae6160@206.231.8.2> Here is a list of DEC gear I must get rid of. It's a sizeable part remaining of that Great Haul I had back in Summer '98. Setting out in our garage. Also, some miscellaneous items are listed at end. Absolutely no room to keep the machines as I must soon clear out a storage cubicle upon which I'm paying $62/month rent. I could certainly better use those bucks for paying bills and also want my radio items stored at home. Can't contact anymore -nor find thru searching to the best of my ability- the previous party who was interested. So it goes to the list. Come an' get it!: ** VAX 11/750 with a TU78 console tape cartridge (diagnostics? boot?) Was mainline system at the place I got all this gear from. Office had been closed since 1994 and equipment stored there. Owner decided to not renew his lease and had to get rid of everything fast (in the meantime, I discovered this and bought a truckload of goodies :-) Reportedly has VMS 5.3 or 5.4 plus several diff. language compilers on the RA81's listed next. Set of six TU78 cartidges with VMS 5.3 on them. ** RA81 in 40" rack (p/o the 750). ** TU80 tape with RA81 drive in 40" rack (p/o the 750). ** PDP-11/24 w/FPF11 (M8188) floating pt. option, two RL02's all in 40" cabinet. Cabinet is same physical size as the 750's cabinet (40" high, about same width & depth.) Console prompt okay but need to fix RL02 problem. ** PDP-11/34A in a 40" rack. Not complete. Old, early style, square-edged shaped metal programmer's panel. Not the stylized plastic shape most are. ** RL02, at least three units *not* including the two in the 11/24. Fault lights appear on two or three (yes, I checked them while hanging off my 11/34A with RL controller :-) ** RL01, one unit. Fault light, IIRC. ** RK07's, four units. One is known to come up without a fault. Another has rather noisy spindle bearing. Others Fault, IIRC. ** RK611 system unit for BA11 with all five boards. Came out of the 11/34A I'm keeping. ** RA60 (needs to be fixed) Seems to be a platter motor driver problem. No spin-up, IIRC. Two disk pacs included. Note: I strongly suspect this RA60 went with my 11/34A, which I'm keeping, as the box had the UDA50 boardset installed and of which was up and running next to the 11/750 at the ex-owners' office. So, probably 11/34A-specific software on the pacs. It's RSX-11 v. 4.2 or 4.3 I rather suspect. *Think* I have an extra UDA50 boardset boxed up somewhere. There's a set in the 11/24 I know. Then again, it could have hung off the /24 as it, the RA60 and the /34A were all setting near the 750. Rest of the stuff on this list, except for two RK07s, were crammed into a small storeroom up the hall. ** decwriter I (LA180) page printer. Not checked. ** decwriter II (LA36) printing console. Not checked. ** decwriter III (LA120) (Typical printing console device for the 11/750, et al). Not checked. (BTW: What's the exact differences between the decwriter II and decwriter III ??? I've got no documentation on them.) ** ADM-11 terminals, two units. Not checked (as of yet). ** VT100 terminals & kbds. Two or three units. Working fairly well IIRC. ** DECmagtape system. TS03 drive and TMB11 I/F (together called a TMB11-M system). Mounted in a DEC 6' tall PDP rack (with the purple and magenta trimpiece at the top). TMB11 I/F mounted in a 10.5" BA11 box. Not checked. Has two of the three RL02's mentioned above residing in the rack. Uses 7" dia. tape reels mentioned next. ** tapes 7" size, 800 BPI, about 85 of them ** 7' tall tape storage rack for hanging above tapes. ** RK07 disk pacs, about 20 or so. ** RL01 disk pacs, about 20 or so. Have to sort out some to keep on hand for an RL01 I'm keeping. ** RL02 disk pacs, about 25-30 or so. Same, have to select-out some for one or two RL02s I'm keeping. Here's something from my collection which *must* go because of severe space limitations: ** Tektronix 4015-1 graphics terminal, two units, same as 4014 except includes APL keyboard and 19" screen. I've had these in the collection for 14+ years and they still worked when last checked in '97. RS232 communications. Came out of the old IBM Endicott plant in '84/'85 when they "downsized" (jeeeze, I dislike that word now since I had personally experienced it last year :( ) Kinda big. ** Zenith Z19 terminals, two or three. One I know has defective RS232 chips, other(s) are okay. ** Zenith Z90. Carterphone OEM version. Some additional boards and parts go with it too. Worked, no floppy installed. ** Teletype ASR33 (one or more units). One or more may function. Need relubing/adjustment. ** Bunches of Zenith Z150-series boxen and keyboards. 15 sets I think, in various conditions. I might dredge up some more smaller stuff to toss onto this listing as time allows. There's certainly more to go. I'm waffling on getting rid of my VAX 11/730 which needs mass storage of some sort added and some other minor restoration. It's a small big iron VAX which makes me unsure whether to get rid of it so far. If ya want to contribute a little $$ on top of shipping/packing material costs I sure won't complain! :-) Smaller items could be shipped but the big stuff should be picked up (unless you're prepared to pay the freight costs for it). Phone: 1.716.488.1722 from 08:00 to 20:30 EST. Location: Western NY State, off the NYS Rt 17(very soon to be I-86), just past West side of Jamestown on Rt. 394. Thanks for your interest. Please take it away soon! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 17 14:59:17 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Would you take my PDP-8I for ? Message-ID: <19991117205917.27244.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- John B wrote: > LOOKING FOR AN RM08 or..... > > Would be willing to trade me a transistor peripheral(s)for a major piece of > equipment like a PDP-8I... > > I am looking for any of these transistor peripherals: I don't have a *one* of those... I do have a couple of DF-32 (w/DS-32) systems which I want to hang onto long enough to re-check out (now that I know lots more about them) and at least one PA-60, which is, IIRC, some kind of printer driver for newspaper-type printers. Good luck dredging up that antediluvian hardware. You seem to have had quite a lot of good luck lately. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 17 15:03:17 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: More Interesting Stuff References: <4.1.19991117122212.00ae6160@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <38331814.EF12D1A9@rain.org> As I loaded my *small* car with the remains of what we had set aside, I found another small box had been set there. Seems there are a number of new IMSAI metal plates, one labeled "IMSAI VDP-40", and the other labeled "IMSAI VDP80". In another box of "goodies", I found the dealer information along with invoices, etc. for Seals Electronics, Northstar, and IMSAI. Unfortunately, he wanted me to destroy the personal/business stuff so I guess those invoices will be history. I will double check with him though to see if it is okay to keep that stuff. Other misc. stuff included a box of about 25 S-100 cards, the Corona PC-400 luggable, Vector Graphic S-100 box (don't recall the model), some Corona motherboards, a Corona Laser printer, and a number of service manuals for Corona/Cordata computers. I asked him about the situation of Corona changing to Cordata, and his response was that Smith-Corona had a problem with the name so the company became Cordata. All in all, this has been a most worthwhile save. From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Nov 17 15:15:05 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Help identify a 'luggable' Message-ID: <0.6de2479c.256474d9@aol.com> My bet is that this is a clone case with a standard XT motherboard in it. I don't remember Compaq I portables with an amber monitor. I have one of these clone cases also. They look a lot like a Compaq. What does it say on bootup? Pull the covers off and see what motherboard is in it. Paxton From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 17 14:32:06 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Would you take my PDP-8I for ? Message-ID: <001701bf313a$d078b8e0$3470e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Would you take my PDP-8I for ? > > >--- John B wrote: >> LOOKING FOR AN RM08 or..... >> >> Would be willing to trade me a transistor peripheral(s)for a major piece of >> equipment like a PDP-8I... >> >> I am looking for any of these transistor peripherals: > >I don't have a *one* of those... I do have a couple of DF-32 (w/DS-32) systems I have two too! Can't wait to solve the head crashing problem.... I have a drum memory unit for my PDP-15 but nothing like that for an 8 or 8/s. Aside from acoustic memory, I find drum memory is the coolest device to run. >which I want to hang onto long enough to re-check out (now that I know lots >more about them) and at least one PA-60, which is, IIRC, some kind of printer >driver for newspaper-type printers. Never heard of it.. > >Good luck dredging up that antediluvian hardware. You seem to have had quite >a lot of good luck lately. Not really. I just usually scrapped this kind of stuff and jumped on Honeywell/PDP 11s/HP minis. I always thought 8s were junk (well.....)... This spring things were getting slow in mini requests so I started scrapping a lot of good stuff.. even a lot of PDP-8 boards (I mean a lot)... I didn't know about this list/ebay 6 months ago and I suspect most computer collectors/restorers still don't. I am going into three more plants before February filled with only really old DEC/IBM stuff... One site had quite a few DECTape drives I will be grabbing. Usually, most *old* steel factories I go into have a really old mini (pre '68) hidden in a room somewhere... I am hoping for more transistor peripherals from my 8. At least 1 Straight-8 has been found at one of the sites but I already have that sold to someone (less the peripherals of course :-) ) Good luck with your minis! john > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Wed Nov 17 15:40:07 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <8025682C.00653DA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is: > > 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of copper. > > 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the > refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No > intervening water circuit. > > 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and > supply it with plenty of fans... > > 4. Finally, try not to spill refrigerant if it's one of those chlorinated > organics that the environmentalists are always going on about. It won't do any > good (although a discussion of whether it does harm is decidedly off-topic), and > will be well-nigh impossible to replace... One issue with copper is the cost. I can buy .5" x 4" aluminum barstock at around $2.00 a foot (I'm sure our friends in Europe love these units of measurement). It's also relatively easy to bore through with a high-quality drill bit if cooled with running water. Also, if I happen to screw up and drill through the side I don't cry as much... For my current peltier-based setup, I have to use a coldplate against the cpu itself because I'm using multiple TECs in the design. After getting some help with actually arranging the different variables into a useable equation, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the temperatures were within +/- 3C of my calculations. One last note about using a water-exchanger in this setup (and then I'll shut-up, I promise), is that it's nice not to have to worry about cooling the inside of the case too! Also, it doesn't sound like a jet-engine starting up...the pump is more like the pleasant gurgle of an aquarium. So off-topic it hurts, Aaron From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Wed Nov 17 15:42:08 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991117124739.0097ead0@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: Depending on what you jack the bus speed up to, you want to make sure that the cache is cooled as well as your video processor. I have a 3dfx board that I needed to put an aftermarket fan/heatsink on because it ran so hot. The nice thing about the high-pressure gas setup I mentioned earlier is that you can direct the vented gas on hot spots to help keep them cool... Aaron On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Besides the CPU, what other chips need to be chilled to over-clock? The > Cache? > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > Slackware Mailing List: > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Nov 17 15:42:45 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-II / PDP11-73 question... Message-ID: <13500391014.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> If I plug the CPU board of an 11/73 into a backpanel from a MicroVAX-II, will it work? Someone I know wants to try it. (I.E. they have the uV2 and want an 11-73 instead.) ------- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 17 15:57:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. Message-ID: <004901bf3146$c0993100$0400c0a8@winbook> There ought to be enough old CRAY hardware out there, from which you can extract the circuits but not the plumbing and keep your PC and stuff in liquefied N2. That might help a little, and it will be cleaner, too. In fact, you ought to get it to run faster than the CRAY. I wonder if the CRAY will run as many instructions between crashes as the PC . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 2:45 PM Subject: Re: E.U.N.U.C.H. >Depending on what you jack the bus speed up to, you want to make sure that >the cache is cooled as well as your video processor. I have a 3dfx board >that I needed to put an aftermarket fan/heatsink on because it ran so hot. > >The nice thing about the high-pressure gas setup I mentioned earlier is >that you can direct the vented gas on hot spots to help keep them cool... > >Aaron > >On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > >> Besides the CPU, what other chips need to be chilled to over-clock? The >> Cache? >> ---------------------------------------- >> Tired of Micro$oft??? >> >> Move up to a REAL OS... >> ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >> #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >> ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >> ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >> ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### >> # ###### >> ("LINUX" for those of you >> without fixed-width fonts) >> ---------------------------------------- >> Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com >> >> Slackware Mailing List: >> http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html >> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 17 16:00:08 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-II / PDP11-73 question... In-Reply-To: <13500391014.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >If I plug the CPU board of an 11/73 into a backpanel from a MicroVAX-II, >will it work? Someone I know wants to try it. (I.E. they have the uV2 and >want an 11-73 instead.) > >------- Well, you've also got to pull the RAM boards, and replave it with ones that support the /73. That's what I did with my PDP-11/73, it's made out of two different MicroVAX II BA123 Chassis, the PDP-11/73 CPU from a SMS-1000 (didn't want a rack mount for my main system, and wanted more slots), and a bunch of different boards. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 17 16:10:02 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-II / PDP11-73 question... In-Reply-To: <13500391014.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >If I plug the CPU board of an 11/73 into a backpanel from a MicroVAX-II, >will it work? Someone I know wants to try it. (I.E. they have the uV2 and >want an 11-73 instead.) > >------- Oh, the big thing about doing this.... Is it a Dual Height, or Quad Height /73 CPU? If it's a Quad Height, he's lucky, and it'll be a piece of cake, if it's a dual height, he'll need another board with a bootstrap on it, and a board with Serial Ports. I use a WQESD controller, that is currently in the system *only* to boot it! For the SLU's I'm using a DLV11-J. The proper solution is to have a board DEC made that contains the boot ROMS and a couple SLU's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Nov 17 16:21:16 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-II / PDP11-73 question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13500398026.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Dual or quad card?] Quad card. ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 17 15:39:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, In-Reply-To: <0.990c4ae1.2564694c@aol.com> from "Maddog1331@aol.com" at Nov 17, 99 03:25:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 943 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991117/c9aa9eaf/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 17 16:42:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Old Computer stuff References: <19991117.111634.-81691.0.pmarzolf@juno.com> Message-ID: <38332F3B.5238615B@rain.org> Hi Paul, Thanks for letting me know, and I am glad the stuff found good homes! Marvin > =====> I'm sorry I have already found homes for my Max80 stuff. > The only think I have left is Univac duel 8" drives and 8" > diskettes with old stuff on them and some blank ones. > Sorry that I didn't have more. > Paul From at258 at osfn.org Wed Nov 17 16:43:49 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, Amdek, HELP! In-Reply-To: <0.990c4ae1.2564694c@aol.com> Message-ID: There's a nice U. S. Apricot site. I don't remember the URL, but I think you can find it in the links at www.osfn.org/~av090/. I think there's an Apricot FTP site floating around, too. On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Maddog1331@aol.com wrote: > Hey all...I am new to this classic computer collecting, but I have been > buying and reselling systems for a few months now. Anyway, I recently > acquired a Hyperion Passport (or is it a Passport Hyperion?), an Apricot, a > workSlate, and some drives, and other stuff (diskettes, or things) that say > Amdek on them. I am just looking on any information I can find on these! I > am attempting to put a value on them, and am trying to decide which to keep, > if any....I am running out of room it seems :-) > > Any help would be appreciated! > > Sincerely, > > Mark Saarinen > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 17 16:46:04 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, Amdek, HELP! In-Reply-To: <0.990c4ae1.2564694c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Maddog1331@aol.com wrote: > Hey all...I am new to this classic computer collecting, but I have been > buying and reselling systems for a few months now. Anyway, I recently > acquired a Hyperion Passport (or is it a Passport Hyperion?), an Apricot, a > workSlate, and some drives, and other stuff (diskettes, or things) that say > Amdek on them. I am just looking on any information I can find on these! I My top of the head reaction to the name Amdek would be that the diskettes are hard cased like a 3.5" diskette only narrower and have a plastic hub that is accessible from either side of the case. They are/were used in Amstrad PCW 8nnn machines, amongst others. - don > am attempting to put a value on them, and am trying to decide which to keep, > if any....I am running out of room it seems :-) > > Any help would be appreciated! > > Sincerely, > > Mark Saarinen > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 17 16:29:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-II / PDP11-73 question... In-Reply-To: <13500391014.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 17, 99 01:42:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991117/dbe8b4e8/attachment.ksh From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed Nov 17 17:16:27 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Looking for info on Calcomp Sanders box References: <808729E7DAB4D2118FFB0060979C30F00E06A9@PEGASUS> Message-ID: <3833374B.4F922E3F@softstar.it> I picked up one of these CALCOMP SANDERS Model: 4518TW System: 89953 Serial: X106944 Looks like a CAD machine but has only a floppy and apparently not HD. Could it be just a graphic terminal that connects to an IBM mainframe using 3270 for applications like CADAM and KATIA? You can see a picture of it at http://www.naida.org/calcomp/calcomp.jpg e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From jallain at databaseamerica.com Wed Nov 17 18:03:54 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Looking for info on Calcomp Sanders box In-Reply-To: <3833374B.4F922E3F@softstar.it> Message-ID: <000001bf3158$687822d0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> The typical CAD system from 1967 - 1987 consisted of: ASCII terminal + Graphics Tube & CPU Subsystem + an entire other Minicomputer Frequenty the Graphics subsystems were quite elaborate, competing in complexity with the main CPU. I don't know anything in particular about this one. Right manufacturer for a CAD tube as were Evan&Sutherland,Lexidata,Tektronix, Ramtek,Megatek. (Incidentally, searching for CALCOMP SANDERS on Hotbot will yield some, uhhh, rather odd results, such as: http://masterstech-home.com/The_Kitchen/Recipes/Dessert_Recipes/EggMousse.ht ml JEA -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Enrico Badella Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 6:16 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Looking for info on Calcomp Sanders box I picked up one of these CALCOMP SANDERS Model: 4518TW System: 89953 Serial: X106944 Looks like a CAD machine but has only a floppy and apparently not HD. Could it be just a graphic terminal that connects to an IBM mainframe using 3270 for applications like CADAM and KATIA? You can see a picture of it at http://www.naida.org/calcomp/calcomp.jpg e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 17 17:07:14 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Found some PDP-1 stuff and updated webpage Message-ID: <004901bf3150$7c573d20$3470e2d1@default> I am just starting to go through the documentation and found some PDP-1 stuff. I have updated my web page to show pictures of some of the PDP-4 paper tapes and list most of the DECUS -8 tapes. I still have a long way to go as I still have to list all the PDP-1,PDP-4,PDP-5,PDP-8,PDP-9,PDP-15 software,docs and paper tapes I have but have a look. Some really cool finds so far: IBM 360 to PDP-9 Interface manual (theory, manual, schematics) Applications in Physics (PDP-1 and PDP-4) Atomic Energy Canada - uses for PDP-1 Macro-9 source code Focal-1968 source code DECUSCOPES and Decus year end stuff (1965,66,67) (will have some docs online soon) http://www.pdp8.com/ (click on the paper tape picture). PDP-8/s update: The oscilloscope and light pen were installed with success. Will have pictures online soon showing the 8/s draw pictures/letters on the scope. I also have a couple of video games I'll take movies of when I get time. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 17 18:26:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. Message-ID: <004e01bf315b$f46afb20$0400c0a8@winbook> 4" doesn't really make for a "deep" hole. You should be able to do this with pretty standard drill bits, but cool them and lubricate them. For best results, use a coarse feed and a relatively slow speed with a very sharp (best is freshly sharpened for every hole) tool. Drill your holes in a single stroke, so you won't have to cope with a work-hardened surface. Take your time. If you custom machine your heatsink to fit the enclosure it lives in, fitting it with 1/4" i.d. holes and 1/4" pipe for circulating the liquid coolant (no FREON or other CFC's...we've got to be ozone-layer-friendly) you can always put an arbitrarily large exchanger outside in the winter, to keep the temperature in the circulating fluid somehwere around -100 Celsius. Remember, what matters is the amount of HEAT you transfer, not the temperature difference, though the heat flows faster between regions of more widely differing temperature. You might even find you don't need so large a delta-T. If you move vast quantities of cold air through a 1 cu. yd. outdoor heatsink, you could put an array of large peltier coolers there to heat that heatsink at the expense of the heat carried to it from the computer in the house. Hopefully you're not trying to be terribly efficient . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 2:42 PM Subject: Re: E.U.N.U.C.H. >On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > >> Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is: >> >> 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of copper. >> >> 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the >> refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No >> intervening water circuit. >> >> 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and >> supply it with plenty of fans... >> >> 4. Finally, try not to spill refrigerant if it's one of those chlorinated >> organics that the environmentalists are always going on about. It won't do any >> good (although a discussion of whether it does harm is decidedly off-topic), and >> will be well-nigh impossible to replace... > > >One issue with copper is the cost. I can buy .5" x 4" aluminum barstock at >around $2.00 a foot (I'm sure our friends in Europe love these units of >measurement). It's also relatively easy to bore through with a >high-quality drill bit if cooled with running water. Also, if I happen to >screw up and drill through the side I don't cry as much... > >For my current peltier-based setup, I have to use a coldplate against the >cpu itself because I'm using multiple TECs in the design. After getting >some help with actually arranging the different variables into a useable >equation, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the temperatures were >within +/- 3C of my calculations. > >One last note about using a water-exchanger in this setup (and then I'll >shut-up, I promise), is that it's nice not to have to worry about cooling >the inside of the case too! Also, it doesn't sound like a jet-engine >starting up...the pump is more like the pleasant gurgle of an aquarium. > >So off-topic it hurts, > >Aaron > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Nov 17 18:36:56 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: TI99 another issue. References: <199911171530.QAA01694@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <00a301bf315d$53b8c200$73701fd1@jrkeysppt> There web sites showing both machines and they are real, but hard to find. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:30 AM Subject: TI99 another issue. > Does anybody here on the list know about the TI 99/2 or /8 models ? > Or own one ? I just remember photographs from the early 80s. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Nov 17 19:01:13 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Message-ID: <0.51db2fe1.2564a9d9@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/99 3:46:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, enrico.badella@softstar.it writes: > I have the opportunity to save an IBM 4381 with lots of disks and tapes; it > is currently running VM ESA 2.1 and also has two 8232 Ethernet units. With > a friend we would like to acquire it and put it on Internet with free > accounts > to requesters. > > I don't have any in field experience with IBM mainframe internals and have > considered this configuration > > - CPU one processor > - 3420 tape > - 8232 Ethernet controller > - 3990 control Unit > - 1 disk string (3 disks or less but need work on the cabinet to > separate the disk subsystems) > > My questions are: > > - not planning to use SNA or 3270, at least initially, do we need > to set up the 3745 FEP? > - is the above configuration reasonable for a minimum system? > - tightly packing all the devices to fit in a 15 square meter room > will cause heating or other problems? > - how may would be interested in accessing the machine? > - anybody willing to offer knowledge? IBM was not very helpfully > to put it kindly. > I was a jr operator on a 4381 in 1991. from what your email says, sounds like you have quite a lot of hardware to move and setup somewhere. a 3990 control unit makes me think there are 3880 DASD units which will take up lots of space and power and make lots of noise to boot. the 4381 is about the size of a closet and almost 7 feet tall. in the shop i worked in, they had two ac units going and the standard raised floor. you'll definately need cooling of some sort. you might try IBM again, call their general number, 800.IBM.3333 or 800.IBM.4YOU (i think) and ask for the number of the local 'branch office' which should get you some info. I'm estimating you will need at least a 20x20 foot room to run this configuration. DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 17 19:05:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: transferring data between APPLE IIGS CP/M diskettes and the real world. Message-ID: <006901bf3161$0449d700$0400c0a8@winbook> I got a plea for help from a fellow named Andrew Saunders who needs some help with his APPLE-][gs. Maybe someone could help him out, as I surely can't. I know some of you guys know more about this than I. I sent him the mailing list address so he can subscribe if he wants. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate,Amdek, HELP! > > >On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Maddog1331@aol.com wrote: > >> Hey all...I am new to this classic computer collecting, but I have been >> buying and reselling systems for a few months now. Anyway, I recently >> acquired a Hyperion Passport (or is it a Passport Hyperion?), an Apricot, a >> workSlate, and some drives, and other stuff (diskettes, or things) that say >> Amdek on them. I am just looking on any information I can find on these! I > >My top of the head reaction to the name Amdek would be that the >diskettes are hard cased like a 3.5" diskette only narrower and have a >plastic hub that is accessible from either side of the case. They >are/were used in Amstrad PCW 8nnn machines, amongst others. > > - don > >> am attempting to put a value on them, and am trying to decide which to keep, >> if any....I am running out of room it seems :-) >> >> Any help would be appreciated! >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Mark Saarinen >> > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Nov 17 19:47:54 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: PDP 8I up and running but.... In-Reply-To: <001401bf2fa3$305959c0$036465cc@default> from "John B" at Nov 15, 99 02:54:12 pm Message-ID: <199911180147.RAA23366@saul7.u.washington.edu> John B wrote: > The 8I is up and running and the paper tape is now going.. I'll try FOCAL > and BASIC before playing with OS/8... Congratulations! > What is (these are on paper tape): > > 1) DEC X-8 (large paper tape.. I think more than 1) An "exerciser" or diagnostic program. This one was installed in core during the last stage of production at the factory. If you had bought a PDP-8 new, you would be able to take it home, set it up, turn it on, and see X-8 start running where it had left off. > 2) PT/8 ???? (Many tapes... but I have no idea what it is) I don't know. -- Derek From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 17 19:23:00 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: PDP 8I up and running but.... Message-ID: <003101bf3163$80a9d3c0$3470e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 8:55 PM Subject: Re: PDP 8I up and running but.... >John B wrote: > >> The 8I is up and running and the paper tape is now going.. I'll try FOCAL >> and BASIC before playing with OS/8... > >Congratulations! > >> What is (these are on paper tape): >> >> 1) DEC X-8 (large paper tape.. I think more than 1) > >An "exerciser" or diagnostic program. This one was installed in core during >the last stage of production at the factory. If you had bought a PDP-8 new, >you would be able to take it home, set it up, turn it on, and see X-8 >start running where it had left off. Sounds cool. I will have to try it out. > >> 2) PT/8 ???? (Many tapes... but I have no idea what it is) > sorry it was PS/8 , not OS/8. >I don't know. > >-- Derek > From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Nov 17 20:17:59 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Need VAX cables Message-ID: Hi, In my efforts to get all my VAXes up and running, I am in need of a few cables/parts. If you have something, let me know how much you want for it. No reasonable offer refused... If you know where I can get something on the list, let me know and you will receive a NOS thank you for your trouble :) Qty P/N Function any VAX-11/7xx printsets / technical documentation 1 EK-GA750 VAX 11/750 gate array handbook any VAXstation 3100 / KA42 technical documentation 2 BC18Z Vaxstation color graphics/keyboard/mouse cable DB-15 (not PC VGA) on one end, block with mini-din for mouse, RJ-45 for keyboard, and 3 BNCs for video 3 BC18P Vaxstation mono graphics/keyboard/mouse cable DB-15 (not PC VGA) on one end, block with mini-din for mouse, RJ-45 for keyboard, and 1 BNC for video 1 BC09J Vaxstation 3100 SCSI cable 68pin Champ? connector on one end, standard SCSI-1 micro ribbon on the other (I think) 1 Vaxstation 3100 SCSI terminator a few DECconnect cables and DB-25 adapters Any other early VAX stuff you think I should have :) Thanks, clint From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 17 21:04:43 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: PDP 8I up and running but.... In-Reply-To: <003101bf3163$80a9d3c0$3470e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 17, 1999 08:23:00 PM Message-ID: <199911180304.TAA10372@shell1.aracnet.com> > >> 2) PT/8 ???? (Many tapes... but I have no idea what it is) > > > > sorry it was PS/8 , not OS/8. IIRC, PS/8 is a precursor to OS/8. I've got a manual, but I think it's buried somewhere in storage. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 17 21:06:46 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Need VAX cables In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" at Nov 17, 1999 07:17:59 PM Message-ID: <199911180306.TAA10409@shell1.aracnet.com> > 1 BC09J Vaxstation 3100 SCSI cable > 68pin Champ? connector on one end, > standard SCSI-1 micro ribbon on the other (I think) I think you can get this still from Compaq. Might even be able to get the others also. It won't be cheap though, and the trick is to get them to admit it. Zane From ghall8360 at juno.com Wed Nov 17 21:08:02 1999 From: ghall8360 at juno.com (George E Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Sinclair QL and others.. Message-ID: <19991117.212724.-200231.0.ghall8360@juno.com> Do you still have any of the PCs that you wanted to get rid of? From Maddog1331 at aol.com Wed Nov 17 23:22:22 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, Message-ID: <0.139427de.2564e70e@aol.com> To be honest, I cant get to it at the moment lol...I have a ton of stuff I just got in, the Apricot among it. As near as I can recall, it was basically rectangular shaped with 2 disk drives on the front, the front being one of the narrow ends of the rectangle. I am really going to tear into this stuff tomorrow or Friday! I still havent got all of it to the house :-) I believe I can make quite a few decent systems out of all this stuff! And hey, to everyone who answered me, thank you so much! All this info is coming in really handy! Mark From Maddog1331 at aol.com Wed Nov 17 23:35:14 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Thank you folks! The information will come in really handy!!!! Message-ID: <0.efc41e2.2564ea12@aol.com> Wow....thanks for all the responses....I thought the workSlate was the only thing I had never seen, but the more I go through this stuff the more stuff comes out I am not familiar with! Thank you all for the information you gave me!!! Very Sincerely, Mark Saarinen From Maddog1331 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 02:00:31 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Sinclair QL and others.. Message-ID: <0.bd02bea1.25650c1f@aol.com> me? I have some sinclair 1000s with printers and such, im a little confused on what posting you are replying to :-) Mark From Maddog1331 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 02:18:35 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Amdek Disks and Drives Message-ID: <0.d564f1a5.2565105b@aol.com> Hey, I was wondering if anyone could give me more info on some stuff. I have bought a HUGE lot of old computer stuff, and part of it is a slew of Amdek disks and disk drives. One of the Amdek drives says Atari computer ( I think...I still have yet to get all this stuff to the house, much less sort through it....gonna be a great weekend of fun :-D) Anyway, whats the deal with Amdek? I have quite a few drives, and a bunch of disks! What was their main purpose? For just Atari, or IBM? Also, what is their capacity? The disks look neat, and rugged...I am hoping that they will still work :-) Anyway, this bunch of stuff came with lots of parts too...sealed keyboard boards for different systems and such. I think that this came out of somebodys old computer repair place. Even has some replacement doohickeys for dot matrix printers. Im still sorting this stuff out. Ill let yall know more as I go along! Mark From truthanl at oclc.org Thu Nov 18 07:30:42 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: TI99 another issue. Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADEF@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> I have a TI 990/10 mini as well as a handbook for the SYSTEM family of peripherals for TI 990 systems. Sincerely Larry Truthan -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:37 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: TI99 another issue. There web sites showing both machines and they are real, but hard to find. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:30 AM Subject: TI99 another issue. > Does anybody here on the list know about the TI 99/2 or /8 models ? > Or own one ? I just remember photographs from the early 80s. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From woodfrog at operamail.com Thu Nov 18 08:34:40 1999 From: woodfrog at operamail.com (Andy Molloy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer Message-ID: <38346193@operamail.com> Hi all, this is my first post to the list. I saw an old NEC computer in a storage shed that I was thinking of trying to save. It has 'APC' on the front (Advanced Personal Computer?), two vertical 8" floppies, and built in screen. Is it one of those 8-bit CP/M systems? If anyone has any info on this system I would appreciate it. Thanks. Andy ----------- Andy Molloy woodfrog@operamail.com From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Nov 18 08:43:06 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer In-Reply-To: <38346193@operamail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991118094306.007b5c40@mail.wincom.net> At 09:34 AM 11/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, this is my first post to the list. > >I saw an old NEC computer in a storage shed that I was thinking of trying to >save. It has 'APC' on the front (Advanced Personal Computer?), two vertical 8" >floppies, and built in screen. Is it one of those 8-bit CP/M systems? If >anyone has any info on this system I would appreciate it. Thanks. > >Andy > Hi, Andy: The one I have uses an early version of DOS, but that is all the info I have on it. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 18 09:36:38 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer Message-ID: <19991118.093646.154.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> According to the _Microcomputer_Buyers_Guide_ (1983 edition): "The APC is a new 16-bit microcomputer from NEC. The basic compact integrated desktop system includes the following components: NEC UPD 8086 (8086 compatible) 5MHz microprocessor, 128k RAM memory; 4Kb ROM; 4kb CMOS RAM; parallel printer interface; one or two 8" floppy disk drives at 243Kb or 1Mb capacity; music output; momochrome or color display (depending on the model); and keyboard. The APC can expand to 256Kb of RAM; maximum of two 8" floppy disks; second RS-232 port; 32-bit floating point unit; and a line drawing graphics subsystem." A kinda odd system, with some rather strange limitations for a micro in 1983. Most notably, memory limitations and the fact that there are no hard disks offered for it. Definitely a pre-PC design. I am under he impression that it was originally intended as a word processor, but marketed as a computer. It ran CPM-86 or MS-DOS (both specific to the APC). The graphics board could do 1024 x 1024, although only 640 x 475 could be actually displayed on screen. The color version used an 8 color (3-bit) palette. Suggested base price: Color, dual floppy $4,998 Mono, single floppy $3,298 Jeff On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:43:06 -0500 "Charles E. Fox" writes: > At 09:34 AM 11/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi all, this is my first post to the list. > > > >I saw an old NEC computer in a storage shed that I was thinking of > trying to > >save. It has 'APC' on the front (Advanced Personal Computer?), two > vertical 8" > >floppies, and built in screen. Is it one of those 8-bit CP/M > systems? If > >anyone has any info on this system I would appreciate it. Thanks. > > > >Andy > > > Hi, Andy: > > The one I have uses an early version of DOS, but that is all > the info I > have on it. > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage > http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Nov 18 09:51:32 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer In-Reply-To: <38346193@operamail.com> Message-ID: The original APC runs CP/M-86 and DOS 2.11. It's a very nice machine, really and very interesting. It's very heavy, though and murderous to move around. It came in both green screen and a colour version. On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Andy Molloy wrote: > Hi all, this is my first post to the list. > > I saw an old NEC computer in a storage shed that I was thinking of trying to > save. It has 'APC' on the front (Advanced Personal Computer?), two vertical 8" > floppies, and built in screen. Is it one of those 8-bit CP/M systems? If > anyone has any info on this system I would appreciate it. Thanks. > > Andy > > ----------- > Andy Molloy > woodfrog@operamail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Nov 18 09:52:31 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, Message-ID: <8025682D.0057833F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > The Apricot is a UK-made IBM-incompatible (my term for an 80x86 box that > runs MS-DOS or CP/M86, but which doesn't have PC-like hardware). There > were various models made, most using 8086 CPUs. > > I think Apricot went on to make some 80286 and higher machines that were > basically PC-clones :-( They did. They were then bought by Mitsubishi (I think) who went on using the Apricot name right on into 486 days - a pc clone called Xen, IIRC. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Nov 18 09:50:48 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. Message-ID: <8025682D.0057833E.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>Considering that the aluminum heat-exchanger/cold-plates from my last >>water-cooled design weigh more than 7lbs total, I don't think I'm going to >>be re-implementing my design in silver any time too soon... > > Aw, c'mon! By my (admittedly rough) calculations, that's only about $510USD > worth of silver (at $5/troy oz spot price). Isn't your hobby worth that? ;-) Did you take account of the difference in density? In such an installation it is usually the volume that is fixed, not the mass... :-) Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From at258 at osfn.org Thu Nov 18 09:58:05 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer In-Reply-To: <19991118.093646.154.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: A hard drive was offered for the system. There were APC Newsletters also.We have some somewhere and they detail all the peripherals on offer. On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > According to the _Microcomputer_Buyers_Guide_ (1983 edition): > > "The APC is a new 16-bit microcomputer from NEC. > The basic compact integrated desktop system includes > the following components: NEC UPD 8086 (8086 compatible) > 5MHz microprocessor, 128k RAM memory; 4Kb ROM; 4kb > CMOS RAM; parallel printer interface; one or two 8" > floppy disk drives at 243Kb or 1Mb capacity; music output; > momochrome or color display (depending on the model); > and keyboard. The APC can expand to 256Kb of RAM; > maximum of two 8" floppy disks; second RS-232 port; > 32-bit floating point unit; and a line drawing graphics > subsystem." > > A kinda odd system, with some rather strange limitations for > a micro in 1983. Most notably, memory limitations and the > fact that there are no hard disks offered for it. Definitely a > pre-PC design. I am under he impression that it was > originally intended as a word processor, but marketed as a > computer. > > It ran CPM-86 or MS-DOS (both specific to the APC). The > graphics board could do 1024 x 1024, although only 640 x 475 > could be actually displayed on screen. The color version > used an 8 color (3-bit) palette. > > Suggested base price: Color, dual floppy $4,998 > Mono, single floppy $3,298 > > > > Jeff > > On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:43:06 -0500 "Charles E. Fox" > writes: > > At 09:34 AM 11/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: > > >Hi all, this is my first post to the list. > > > > > >I saw an old NEC computer in a storage shed that I was thinking of > > trying to > > >save. It has 'APC' on the front (Advanced Personal Computer?), two > > vertical 8" > > >floppies, and built in screen. Is it one of those 8-bit CP/M > > systems? If > > >anyone has any info on this system I would appreciate it. Thanks. > > > > > >Andy > > > > > Hi, Andy: > > > > The one I have uses an early version of DOS, but that is all > > the info I > > have on it. > > > > Regards > > > > Charlie Fox > > > > > > Charles E. Fox > > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage > > http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 11:19:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Overclocking in the old time) In-Reply-To: References: <199911171214.NAA12396@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <199911181620.RAA01301@mail2.siemens.de> > > > For laughs I've been running a 486dx/33 (intel) at 66mhz in a dell box. > > > The only mod if the heat sink is a moose I had and its attached to the > > > chip using a BEo filled thermal epoxy. Runs cool and it's solid. > > 486dx33 at 66 MHz ? Well, I don't want to be picky, but wouldn't > > this result in 66 MHz CPU bus ? Sounds a bit off for 486 Boards. > ISA not PCI. The bus is still cpuclock /n and n in that case is 8. Well, I wasn't talking about the I/O bus (as ISA or PCI should be considered), but rather about the CPU bus - and if you overclock an (non multiplieable) basic 486DX CPU, the only way is to raise bus speed - and 66 MHz is way out of Spec for all 486es I know - regulary only the AMD Parts are speced for 40 or the old Intel DX50 (was quite a beast - just _way_ expensive, and rarely seen - I guess the yield was just to low to promote it). > > > I've tried that in a socket5 Mb I have using a 486dx2/50 at 100mhz, seems > > > fine after three months. The cooling is not big a problem. > > Jep, the most notable CPU is still the AMD 5x86 (486dx4/133 with > > extended cache) - I have them running at 4x40 MHz == 160 MHz without > > any problem - only for high load apps the cooling must be presen, > > a Linux (web) server can even run without a fan. > I have about 8 of them running here at work including one as a NT3.51 > server all at 133mhz. Very good machines! Jep. And running at 40 MHz bus speed still comperable to any P100 > > I found it hard to run NMOS 6502 on more than 1.3 times their nominal speed. > The 8085s and z80s would run that fast but things like propagation times > don't shrink so the access times and all do not scale well. For example > take a 4mhz z80 to 6mhz and you better have memory that is faster than > what would be needed first at glance. Same thing pushing 8085H-2 (6mhz, > to 8mhz). True. But for the 6502 even more the CPU itself was often the hardest part to tweak. Geting fast Memorys wasn't that problem - the CPU itself starts to malfunction, possibly the propagation times within the CPU where already stressed. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 11:19:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:35 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cost) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991117140243.009b71f0@127.0.0.1> References: Message-ID: <199911181620.RAA01304@mail2.siemens.de> > >> P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that > >> silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. > >Considering that the aluminum heat-exchanger/cold-plates from my last > >water-cooled design weigh more than 7lbs total, I don't think I'm going to > >be re-implementing my design in silver any time too soon... > Aw, c'mon! By my (admittedly rough) calculations, that's only about $510USD > worth of silver (at $5/troy oz spot price). Isn't your hobby worth that? ;-) Well, true, Ag is cheap - and you don't need a real lot. Just if Aaron is now using SEVEN pound of Al, he might need now 7 *(10,5/2,7) or 27,2 lbs - quite some more stuff. But on the other hand I used on my silver K6-2 cooler just 600g (1.5lbs), worth ~290 Mark (~150 USD). Gruss H. It's a simple design, operating just on water, and always around room temperature - and I pushed an K6-2 300 up to 500 MHz... (Of course copper would also be ok ... I just compared the price, and for less than 50 bucks difference I got a cool silver thingy :) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 11:19:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) In-Reply-To: <8025682C.00653DA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199911181620.RAA01312@mail2.siemens.de> > > P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that > > silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. > Not quite accurate, Hans. > Silver and Copper are way better thermal conductors than Alumin(i)um, but > there's not much to choose between the two of them. Ok Ok, but it's better :) > >From Kaye and Laby, 15th edition: (all figures in watts per metre per kelvin) > At -100 Celsius: Al, 241; Cu, 420, Ag, 432. Interestingly enough, at these low > temperatures Beryllium is pretty good at 367. > At 0 Celsius: Al, 236; Cu, 403; Ag, 428. Be has fallen to 218, behind even Al. > At 100 Celsius:Al, back up to 240; Cu, 395; Ag, 422. According to my numbers: AL 210 Cu 380 Ag 408 - just I have no expliciet temperature named (and I'm somewhat confused, since I belived that lambda is not depending on any temperature, but rather a coefficient(?) to determinate the conductance (?) - otherwise you'd have to integrate lambda over the temperaturerange within the object (remember, its w/mK, where K is dT)) > Conclusion: Cu and Ag are over 60% better than Al; at low temperatures Ag is > better by 2%; at higher temperatures its lead increases to 6% but is still > nothing to write home about. Well 6% are still 6%, especialy if the difference in price isn't that big. > FWIW Gold is the only other metal that makes it above 200, and is between Cu and > Al in all cases. > Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is: > 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of copper. Adds more and more heat - an infinite loop, where you have to add a bigger part to the 'interchange' on the hot side, hust for transporting the Peltiers own heat. I found it better to optimise the transport within the interchange element (as with using Cu or Ag, and mor efficient flow structures) than just adding a Peltier. It's not about geting the target temperature as low as possible, but rather transporting away ad much (thermal) power as possible - that will inherently keep the target from overheating. Also, if we just remove the heat to keep the device (and all parts) not below environment temperature we avoide all probems with condensation (word?). We don't have to isolate all cooled parts wathertight. Saving again a lot of recurces. > 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the > refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No > intervening water circuit. > 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and > supply it with plenty of fans... Or just use water and a real _big_ radiator to expell the heat. After all, it's again about radiation a specific amount of thermal power - and this can be done by either a high delta-T or just a biger surface (phi = lamda * S * delta-T / delta). > 4. Finally, try not to spill refrigerant if it's one of those chlorinated > organics that the environmentalists are always going on about. It won't do any > good (although a discussion of whether it does harm is decidedly off-topic), and > will be well-nigh impossible to replace... Or best of all, just use a matter with excelent properies and no risk - like water (we are talking about a small amount, so no risk of drowning) - water has one of the best termal capacity numbers and good qualities in conductiviety (Just to avoide questions why it isn't used in frigdes - Water can't be compressed - so it is hard to reach temperatures below the environment). Conclusion: I belive that a 'soft' aproach can give the same result in most situation without spending endless resources to push a single idea solution (brute force). Gruss H. BTW: I considere this total on topic, since these are the same problems since computers exist (I've been trained on cooled CPU systems in the late 70s). -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 11:19:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Other Chips) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991117124739.0097ead0@207.207.0.212> References: <8025682C.00653DA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199911181620.RAA01308@mail2.siemens.de> > Besides the CPU, what other chips need to be chilled to over-clock? The > Cache? All ICs where you like to rise the clockspeed - if you just change the multipier its just the CPU. An atempt to increas the bus speed by more than 30 % is quite rare this day - especialy with standard components (i.e. going from 100MHz to 133 MHz). So if you don't push anything special, just go ahead. If looking at actual PCs, the graphic cards may be a good second target, especialy since most of the newer chips (TNT/TNT2/gForce/V3/G400) allow to change the clockspeed (seperate for GPU and VRAM) by software. (This is also a good area to revitalize an old socket 7 cooler design - one has to do a new for a PII or K7 anyway :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 11:25:34 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: TI99 another issue. In-Reply-To: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADEF@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Message-ID: <199911181626.RAA03239@mail2.siemens.de> >> > Does anybody here on the list know about the TI 99/2 or /8 models ? >> > Or own one ? I just remember photographs from the early 80s. >> I have a TI 990/10 mini as well as a handbook for the SYSTEM family of >> peripherals for TI 990 systems. Cool - I never have seen any in real - but the question did go for two homecomputers - the /2 was suposed to be a cheaper version of the /4 (and was build AFAIK), while the /8 should be the follow up - and never sold - again AFAIK). > There web sites showing both machines and they are real, but hard to find. Any site showing a /2 or /8 _owned_ by the author ? I did until now only find pictures taken from TI's PR material. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 18 10:28:06 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer Message-ID: <19991118.102807.48.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:58:05 -0500 (EST) "Merle K. Peirce" writes: > A hard drive was offered for the system. There were APC Newsletters > also.We have some somewhere and they detail all the peripherals on > offer. > > On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > According to the _Microcomputer_Buyers_Guide_ (1983 edition): > > > > "The APC is a new 16-bit microcomputer from NEC. > > The basic compact integrated desktop system includes Interesting, that must have been offered *after* 1983! Did they later remove the 256k memory limitation? Also, in mid-83 they offered some Z-80 systems that used OASIS. Funny the _Buyers_Guide_ supplement (dated 5/83) mention harddrives (big, for the time) for their CP/M and OASIS machines, but nothing for NEC's 16-bit systems. I guess no reference is definitive . . . ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 18 12:27:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer In-Reply-To: <38346193@operamail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991118122717.22e797be@mailhost.intellistar.net> Andy, I have a byte magazine that has a review of it. It looks like a nice machine. Joe At 09:34 AM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, this is my first post to the list. > >I saw an old NEC computer in a storage shed that I was thinking of trying to >save. It has 'APC' on the front (Advanced Personal Computer?), two vertical 8" >floppies, and built in screen. Is it one of those 8-bit CP/M systems? If >anyone has any info on this system I would appreciate it. Thanks. > >Andy > >----------- >Andy Molloy >woodfrog@operamail.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 18 12:29:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: TI99 another issue. In-Reply-To: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADEF@oa2-server.dev.oc lc.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991118122944.22e77afe@mailhost.intellistar.net> I used to work on the TI 99/10 but I don't remember much about them. I do remember that it was nearly impossible to fix the circuit cards. They were multi-layer and used very fine wires for the circuit traces. Joe At 08:30 AM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >I have a TI 990/10 mini as well as a handbook for the SYSTEM family of >peripherals for TI 990 systems. > >Sincerely >Larry Truthan > >-----Original Message----- >From: John R. Keys Jr. [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] >Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:37 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: TI99 another issue. > > >There web sites showing both machines and they are real, but hard to find. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Hans Franke >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:30 AM >Subject: TI99 another issue. > > >> Does anybody here on the list know about the TI 99/2 or /8 models ? >> Or own one ? I just remember photographs from the early 80s. >> >> Gruss >> H. >> >> -- >> Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >> Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >> Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >> Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >> HRK >> > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 18 12:33:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: sightings report: Grid desktop PC Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991118123331.3b87e1ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, I was in a surplus store yesterday and they had a GRID desktop PC. I didn't know GRID ever made a desktop model. This was a white case with both 3.5" and 5.25" disk drives and 7 expansion slots and a separate monitor. It looks a lot like an Epson Equity computer. Any comments? Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 18 10:46:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Overclocking in the old time) In-Reply-To: <199911181620.RAA01301@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: > an (non multiplieable) basic 486DX CPU, the only way is to raise bus > speed - and 66 MHz is way out of Spec for all 486es I know - regulary > only the AMD Parts are speced for 40 or the old Intel DX50 (was quite It was abuse but it works. > True. But for the 6502 even more the CPU itself was often the hardest > part to tweak. Geting fast Memorys wasn't that problem - the CPU itself > starts to malfunction, possibly the propagation times within the CPU > where already stressed. That is the true limiting speed of most CPUs. The RCA CDP1802 cmos part is an excellent example of this. At certain voltages and high speeds the part will not work due to the internal propagation delays. Allison From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Nov 18 11:03:08 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: sightings report: Grid desktop PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991118123331.3b87e1ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991118110308.02e12850@207.207.0.212> Hello Joe, > I was in a surplus store yesterday and they had a GRID desktop PC. I >didn't know GRID ever made a desktop model. This was a white case with both >3.5" and 5.25" disk drives and 7 expansion slots and a separate monitor. >It looks a lot like an Epson Equity computer. Any comments? I took a look at that computer.... It's a 486sx. It uses a weirdo motherboard and daughter card (like the types in the small Dell Precisions). The hard disc is a 1xxMB drive. ...and the face plate is somewhat loose. I wanted to get it until I saw the weird boards in it. A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 12:09:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Dont want to start a flame war here but In-Reply-To: References: <000b01bf2fc0$674d2ac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199911181710.SAA15623@mail2.siemens.de> > > When you get to my stage of life, they're just as much fun in bed . . . > > trust me . . . > Come on, stop disappointing those who still have their lives ahead of them > (points at self ;) Dreams of teh youg ones ... reality will catch you soon... Hans From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 18 12:19:01 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Whoohoo! Fortune Telling... (Customs) In-Reply-To: <382DEF63.39C87A18@idirect.com> Message-ID: <199911181720.SAA17876@mail2.siemens.de> > > You may have to pay State tax on the purchase price when bringing it across > > the border. Be sure to say it is for your PERSONAL hobby. Get a receipt from > > the place you are purchasing the mini from. > Another time I went to Buffalo and the charge was $US10.00 which the fellow > surprised me by actually asking for it. Not that it was not worth that much (BA123 > with RD53 and TK50), but usually when the price is that low, no one actually cares. > At the border, they did not even care about the invoice, the main factor was the date > on the power supply - 1985 which made it so old that the customs guy could hardly > believe it. So again, I was waived through without any duties or GST. Well, at least over here age is no term within this calculation. It's all about the right duty class number - and there are ZILLIONS (well ok, a little less, but it is a book of more than 3000 pages with several dozend numbers per page ... and you have to find the exact type - of course almost all lead to two or three simplyfied charges, but you have to have it - for example, is a radio module (to be used on a radio reciver card) a radio, a PC component, an electronic component, a comunication device or ... or ... or. At the moment I have this problems with the customs in Bremen, about my small pile of stuff from my last US visit ... 20 Boxes with some eq, from a coco2 up to an RK05J... And the officers hate to look for these numbers ... Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 18 10:27:40 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: DF32 disk writer Message-ID: <007301bf31e1$d5892200$f576e2d1@default> Does anyone here have a DF32 disk writer? If not, I got the schematics and theory to one and guess I'll end up quickly building one. john From Ant165 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 12:16:15 1999 From: Ant165 at aol.com (Ant165@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: T1200 blues Message-ID: <0.42e624bf.25659c6f@aol.com> I have a toshiba T1200, but the screen cracked, i've taken it apart, and lost jumpers, the hard drive stopped working, and i just wanna know if anyone knows how to get this thing back to life? From pmarzolf at juno.com Thu Nov 18 12:20:49 1999 From: pmarzolf at juno.com (pmarzolf@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Sinclair QL and others.. Message-ID: <19991118.113841.-35629.1.pmarzolf@juno.com> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:08:02 -0600 George E Hall writes: > Do you still have any of the PCs that you wanted to get rid of? ====> I don't know if this was directed to me or not but will answer. I have one PC left to find a home for. ARC X-TURBO FLIP TOP CASE, 640K 8MHZ MOTHER BOARD, CLOCK/CALENDAR, TWO PAR, 2 SER, GAME PORT, 4 DRIVE CONTROLLER (RIBBON CABLES), 135W POWER SUPPLY, COLOR BOARD(RGB), 83 KEY KEYBOARD, TAXAN 415 MONITOR, THE HEART OF THE ARC X-TURBO IS THE INTEL 8088-2 MICRO-PROCESSOR USED IN THE IBM PERSONAL COMPUTER. TWO 5 1/4' FULL SIZE DISK DRIVES. TWO 5 1/4" HALF SIZE HIGH DENSITY EXTERNAL DISK DRIVES ====> If interested let me know Paul Marzolf pmarzolf@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Nov 18 12:39:44 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) References: <199911181620.RAA01312@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <383447F0.53BD44C@wxs.nl> Beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beryllium was mentioned here. Beryllium Oxide was used in the thermal conduction stuff HF-transistors decades ago, but this ceramic stuff can be quite lethal. If it breaks and you inhale a few microns of the dust there off, lungcancer can almost be guarantied within a decade !!!! Stay away from BEO !!!!! Sipke de Wal Hans Franke wrote: > > > At -100 Celsius: Al, 241; Cu, 420, Ag, 432. Interestingly enough, at these low > > temperatures Beryllium is pretty good at 367. > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 18 13:03:05 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) References: <199911181620.RAA01312@mail2.siemens.de> <383447F0.53BD44C@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <38344D69.1C3C7EB7@mainecoon.com> Sipke de Wal wrote: > > Beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [snip] > Stay away from BEO !!!!! It *is* incredibly nasty. Loral used to have a division which made Be spheres (can you say "neutron reflector"?); they fabed them in the same equipment used to fab plutonium 'pits' due to the inhalation hazard. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 18 13:13:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) In-Reply-To: <383447F0.53BD44C@wxs.nl> Message-ID: Yes, by me. It was a suspension so dust was not possible. I also have silicone grease with BEO for apps. Used to do things like cunduction cooled tube amps and Water cooled tube amps so I know that stuff is dangerous. Blocks of the stuff would be machined in a special negative pressure room with HEPA filters, operator is in class-A garb for protection. If an insulator with good thermal propterties is required the choices are small. It's still used for those SOT RF power transistors. Allison On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Beryllium was mentioned here. Beryllium Oxide was used in the thermal > conduction stuff HF-transistors decades ago, but this ceramic stuff can > be quite lethal. If it breaks and you inhale a few microns of the dust > there off, lungcancer can almost be guarantied within a decade !!!! > > Stay away from BEO !!!!! > > Sipke de Wal > > > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > At -100 Celsius: Al, 241; Cu, 420, Ag, 432. Interestingly enough, at these low > > > temperatures Beryllium is pretty good at 367. > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 18 13:23:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: YADML - Yet Another DEC Module List Message-ID: What can I say, I got tired of 3+ different lists for modules not covered in the "Field Guide", and have merged them into one list. I've also added some flip-chips to the list that weren't in any of the other three lists. Currently it's primarily PDP-8 related, but I'm working on fixing that and adding stuff from other PDP's (I'm not adding stuff in the "Field Guide"). The original three lists can be found at: http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/modules.txt http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/omni.txt http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/sq.txt The merged list with addtions can be found at: ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/ModuleList.txt If anyone has any additions or corrections I'll add them in. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be interested in those also. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 18 12:41:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, In-Reply-To: <0.139427de.2564e70e@aol.com> from "Maddog1331@aol.com" at Nov 18, 99 00:22:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991118/fae82621/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 18 13:29:59 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cost) In-Reply-To: <199911181620.RAA01304@mail2.siemens.de> References: <3.0.1.32.19991117140243.009b71f0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: >> >> P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that >> >> silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. >It's a simple design, operating just on water, and always around >room temperature - and I pushed an K6-2 300 up to 500 MHz... >(Of course copper would also be ok ... I just compared the price, >and for less than 50 bucks difference I got a cool silver thingy :) With a cooler that is chip/plate/water don't you want to keep the "plate" as thin as possible? From dogas at leading.net Thu Nov 18 13:52:40 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <01bf31fe$788e2920$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Hi all, I've been fortunate lately. Recent system arrivals include a Motorola Exorcisor&Disk and MEK 6800d2, an OSI Challenger iii and replacement power supply, an OSI Challenger 500 with a chunky doc set, a MITS 680, a KIM-4/hb tvt-6/etc...,and a Heathkit H-11/H-27. Frankly, I'm overwhelmed, but enjoying it. It's hard to find all the necessary time each of these machines are screaming for between all my other grand schemes but I manage. I've been pretty quite lately but lurking when I get a chance and as usual have enjoyed it all. I know there's alot on the h-11 in the archives and I'll hit them too but I know zilch about it right now. The cards in the tilt out qbus(?) are: 1. Digital M7264 2. H-11-5 Serial i/o 3. H27 Floppy i/o 4. H-11-5 Serial i/o 5. M8044 CB 6. M9400 YB 7. WHA-11-16 16k x 16k Memory First question, does it matter how these boards are plugged into the backplane? If so, where do they go? What are boards #6 and #7? The WHA-11-16 had a memory chip that was partially popped out and the right drive latch on the H-27 is cracked but repariable I think. Next question, anyone got a recommendation on where I can find that rectangular(4x6 pin) serial connector? And lastly, dc on, dc off... ??? I'd appreciate copys of any docs for this thing anyone is willing to copy (and software too...) My goal is to get rt(h)-11 and some decus? software (a c compiler) software humming. Thanks for any help - Mike: dogas@leading.net From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 18 14:06:57 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: Kevin Schoedel's message of "Mon, 8 Nov 1999 01:58:39 -0500" References: Message-ID: I've just read your mails about the Xerox's keyboard/mouse interface, and it seems I've reached the same conclusions (cool!). Now, I'm still hacking a simple 422-232 interface, using the HandyBoard's MAX232 and some TTL logic. Although, I've been able to receive ASCII text from the bus. Can't send useful data still. (I can post the details of my connections if anyone interested). When the workstation boots, it sends a burst of data through the RS422 bus (in hex): 01 55 aa 00 01 02 03 ... fe ff 00 01 02 03 ... fe ff But I still can't get a repeatable behavior, I mean, when I press some keys, the xerox seems to react, but if I press the same keys again, it does not. I suspect It has to do with an improper 422-232 level conversion. I'm going to try again tonight. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 18 14:21:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help In-Reply-To: <01bf31fe$788e2920$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: > 1. Digital M7264 PDP-11/03 processor > 2. H-11-5 Serial i/o > 3. H27 Floppy i/o > 4. H-11-5 Serial i/o > 5. M8044 CB 16 KW RAM > 6. M9400 YB 120-ohm Terminator > 7. WHA-11-16 16k x 16k Memory > >First question, does it matter how these boards are plugged into the >backplane? If so, where do they go? What are boards #6 and #7? The Well, I would think that 6 & 7 are reversed, but I'm not familair with the H-11, so there might be soemthing wierd going on there. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 18 14:35:44 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <19991118203544.14421.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > 1. Digital M7264 > PDP-11/03 processor > > 2. H-11-5 Serial i/o > > 3. H27 Floppy i/o > > 4. H-11-5 Serial i/o > > 5. M8044 CB > 16 KW RAM > > 6. M9400 YB > 120-ohm Terminator > > 7. WHA-11-16 16k x 16k Memory > > > >First question, does it matter how these boards are plugged into the > >backplane? To a certain extent - the CPU should be at one end of the Qbus, the M9400 at the other. Other stuff is not so critical. > If so, where do they go? What are boards #6 and #7? The The M9400 is at least a Qbus terminator if not a Qbus terminator and boot card... I forget what the "YB" designator means, and my H-11 is not in front of me (it has a KDF-11 "PDP-11/23+" CPU card in there, anyway). The WHA-11-16 is some third-party card with which I am not familiar. > Well, I would think that 6 & 7 are reversed, but I'm not familair with the > H-11, so there might be soemthing wierd going on there. It is wierd - the backplane is upsidedown - the cards go in with the solder side up. It threw me for a loop the first time, too. Fortunately, I didn't "fix" the problem and power up. BTW, that 4x6 connector is Heathkit propietary. I have never seen one anywhere else except hanging up on the wall of the local electronics warehouse about 15 years ago back when that kind of connector was more common. It's a type of Molex connector. If you have _any_ DEC async boards, I'd pull the H-11-5 and go with a DLV11-J or the like. I have an H-11-5. It's *not* in the H-11. It's on the shelf. I do not have any docs, though, before you ask. I am stymied with the H-27 interface card. I have tested all the TTL ICs, but this thing still locks up the Qbus when it's plugged into the grant chain with no gaps. With gaps, it begins to read the floppy at boot time, but as soon as the boot code turns on interrupts, because the interface is in the wrong place, the system hangs, waiting for the interrupt that never comes. I've been working on other systems recently - a pdp-8/e and pdp-8/L, specifically. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 14:47:18 1999 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project References: Message-ID: <19991118204930.44639.qmail@hotmail.com> I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and technical documents for all different types of old computers. Before I put it up for all to enjoy, I need to write a legal disclaimer saying, to the effect, that I make no claim to own anything and to the best of my knowledge it's all public domain info. Anyone know how I should word it, or anyone have an example on their web site? Thanks in advance. -Jason McBrien -Wayne State University -Big Iron Fiend From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 18 15:04:22 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: old NEC APC computer Message-ID: <0.7adec811.2565c3d6@aol.com> I had a color APC set up for AutoCAD 1.1 at one time. One of several that passed through my hands. They are a very nice machines, the color especially. There is a NEC hard drive (5 1/4" external) that worked with it. I had a hard drive and APC documentation until my warehouse cleanout. I don't think they were salvaged. If there is any software (CPM-86 and/or MS-DOS 2.11) for it the APC is a good candidate for a collection. Paxton From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 18 15:34:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: YADML - Yet Another DEC Module List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19991118122145.04385ee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well as long we are on the subject I might as well pop into it. I have a Palm Pilot (I know not Classic yet :-) but I got it because it is possible to develop applications for it. My "learning" application (I have to have a need in order to get over the hump of writing throw away code) is to put together a DEC module database for the Palm so that I can quickly figure out what exactly a board is, or what a system might contain or need to get running. The application is currently spec'd (by me) to have three "databases" 1) DEC modules for classic machines (sortable by family type) 2) DEC systems and references to their base modules. 3) DEC modules I either have or need. Now the programming part is pretty easy but getting the data entered will no doubt be the most difficult. I'll be "licensing" the software for free, if you put in some data you should send it back to be integrated into a master database to save other people time using it. I've only got the basic stuff done so I don't know yet how large it will be. --Chuck At 11:23 AM 11/18/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >What can I say, I got tired of 3+ different lists for modules not covered >in the "Field Guide", and have merged them into one list. I've also added >some flip-chips to the list that weren't in any of the other three lists. >Currently it's primarily PDP-8 related, but I'm working on fixing that and >adding stuff from other PDP's (I'm not adding stuff in the "Field Guide"). > >The original three lists can be found at: >http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/modules.txt >http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/omni.txt >http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/sq.txt > >The merged list with addtions can be found at: >ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/ModuleList.txt > >If anyone has any additions or corrections I'll add them in. If anyone has >any suggestions I'd be interested in those also. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 18 15:55:58 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2/300 Ppower supply available Message-ID: <19991118215558.27937.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> I was just going through the attic and found an old 3B2/300 shell. The only thing left is the bottom sheet metal and the power supply. If anyone wants it, I'm asking 1.2 * shipping. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dogas at leading.net Thu Nov 18 16:15:20 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <01bf3212$66e447e0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> From: Ethan Dicks >... >It is wierd - the backplane is upsidedown - the cards go in with the solder >side up. It threw me for a loop the first time, too. Fortunately, I didn't >"fix" the problem and power up. A shared experience. >BTW, that 4x6 connector is Heathkit propietary. I have never seen one >anywhere else except hanging up on the wall of the local electronics >warehouse about 15 years ago back when that kind of connector was more >common. It's a type of Molex connector. I guessed that one too. ;) >If you have _any_ DEC async boards, I'd pull the H-11-5 and go with a DLV11-J >or the like. I have an H-11-5. It's *not* in the H-11. It's on the shelf. How are they different? >I do not have any docs, though, before you ask. I am stymied with the H-27 >interface card. I have tested all the TTL ICs, but this thing still locks >up the Qbus when it's plugged into the grant chain with no gaps. With gaps, >it begins to read the floppy at boot time, but as soon as the boot code >turns on interrupts, because the interface is in the wrong place, the system >hangs, waiting for the interrupt that never comes. Will it boot into a monitor without the h-27 attached and is there a command reference somewhere around? > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 18 16:30:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project Message-ID: <000e01bf3214$8887d040$0400c0a8@winbook> GREAT!!! I've been pondering where to stash the documents, which will ultimately amount to about 100GB of scanned , maybe 25 GB of PCX-formatted documents on disk drives, which will compress, of course, but the volume grows steadily as I muck out. What I want is for all the hardware doc's I've saved all these years to be available to whoever needs them. Is that consistent with what you're planning? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jason McBrien To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and >technical documents for all different types of old computers. Before I put >it up for all to enjoy, I need to write a legal disclaimer saying, to the >effect, that I make no claim to own anything and to the best of my knowledge >it's all public domain info. Anyone know how I should word it, or anyone >have an example on their web site? Thanks in advance. > >-Jason McBrien >-Wayne State University >-Big Iron Fiend From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 18 16:24:19 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help In-Reply-To: <19991118203544.14421.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991118171456.00af6560@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:35 PM 11/18/99 -0800, Ethan Dicks said something like: > > >--- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> > 1. Digital M7264 >> PDP-11/03 processor >> > 2. H-11-5 Serial i/o >> > 3. H27 Floppy i/o >> > 4. H-11-5 Serial i/o >> > 5. M8044 CB >> 16 KW RAM >> > 6. M9400 YB >> 120-ohm Terminator >> > 7. WHA-11-16 16k x 16k Memory >> > >> >First question, does it matter how these boards are plugged into the >> >backplane? > >To a certain extent - the CPU should be at one end of the Qbus, the M9400 >at the other. Other stuff is not so critical. > >> If so, where do they go? What are boards #6 and #7? The > >The M9400 is at least a Qbus terminator if not a Qbus terminator and boot >card... I forget what the "YB" designator means, and my H-11 is not in >front of me (it has a KDF-11 "PDP-11/23+" CPU card in there, anyway). > >The WHA-11-16 is some third-party card with which I am not familiar. That's the Heath-designed memory card. The "W" means it was factory wired and tested. > >> Well, I would think that 6 & 7 are reversed, but I'm not familair with the >> H-11, so there might be soemthing wierd going on there. > >It is wierd - the backplane is upsidedown - the cards go in with the solder >side up. It threw me for a loop the first time, too. Fortunately, I didn't >"fix" the problem and power up. > > >BTW, that 4x6 connector is Heathkit propietary. I have never seen one >anywhere else except hanging up on the wall of the local electronics >warehouse about 15 years ago back when that kind of connector was more >common. It's a type of Molex connector. Hmm, I gotta find an old Molex catalog (IF I kept an old one in my design library still stored in boxes). Seems it was a rather familiar type from our using Molex products at my ex-employer. > >If you have _any_ DEC async boards, I'd pull the H-11-5 and go with a DLV11-J >or the like. I have an H-11-5. It's *not* in the H-11. It's on the shelf. > >I do not have any docs, though, before you ask. I am stymied with the H-27 >interface card. I have tested all the TTL ICs, but this thing still locks >up the Qbus when it's plugged into the grant chain with no gaps. With gaps, >it begins to read the floppy at boot time, but as soon as the boot code >turns on interrupts, because the interface is in the wrong place, the system >hangs, waiting for the interrupt that never comes. I've got two complete H-11 systems but have not yet got them running. Back burner project setting with all the others. Should get to them I guess so's I could help several here who have them. I could look up stuff if either of you need info. Seems Allison has had one for years that she hotrodded with a better CPU, etc. > >I've been working on other systems recently - a pdp-8/e and pdp-8/L, >specifically. Well, that should keep one busy for a spell :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 18 16:34:27 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <19991118223427.5085.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike wrote: > >BTW, that 4x6 connector is Heathkit propietary. By this I meant that only Heathkit used it for a serial connector. It's a standard Molex of some type, AFAIK. > > ...I'd pull the H-11-5 and go with a DLV11-J... > How are they different? The DLV11-J uses "standard" DEC .1" spacing, 2x5 Berg connectors. There are also wiring harnesses and backpanels to convert the Berg ends to a panel with 4 x DB-25 w/standard DEC wiring (Male, DTE). Oh, yeah... the DLV11-J is a quad serial card at standard addresses (so you can hang a TU-58 on it and RT-11 will know where to look), the H-11-5 is a single console port, like some other DLV11 card (not the "J", "E" perhaps?) > Will it boot into a monitor without the h-27 attached and is there a command > reference somewhere around? That depends entirely on your CPU/boot rom combo. My 11/23+ CPU (KDF11-AB) has an interactive boot program that lets me test stuff, dump the bus and boot devices by name (DY0, DL1, etc.) The older ROMs for the 11/23+ aren't as fancy - boot prompt (Y/N) and optionally the device mnemonic. No diags, no dialog. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 18 16:41:19 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project In-Reply-To: <19991118204930.44639.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19991118172533.00af0ea0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:47 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Jason McBrien said something like: >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and >technical documents for all different types of old computers. Before I put >it up for all to enjoy, I need to write a legal disclaimer saying, to the >effect, that I make no claim to own anything and to the best of my knowledge >it's all public domain info. Anyone know how I should word it, or anyone >have an example on their web site? Thanks in advance. Public Domain? Not if there's any indication of a copyright on them. That disclaimer you plan to write will not cut it if there is a copyright on the documents. Very few documents could be considered PD unless they did not have a specific copyright notice OR if there is a general specific release given by the copyright holder to PD OR the copyright holder gives *you* permission to hang it out on your website for the public to see with a notice stating the copyright holder still retains copyright. Recently revised copyright laws make *everything* copyrighted nowadays. US Government printed documentation is usually not copyrighted and therefore PD, for example, that is if it's not classified or secret. Military technical manuals on mil radios and mil electronic test equipment are in this category. After all, the US *public* paid for writing, preparing and printing them. I've got about nine shelf-feet of such manuals in my collection. If you find Government printed computer manuals you should be out of trouble. But what computers that we'd have in our collections would have gov't. issue manuals? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 16:44:53 1999 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project References: <000e01bf3214$8887d040$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <19991118224714.35590.qmail@hotmail.com> Sure! The more the merrier. I'm starting out small, I only have about 9GB of disk space on a Linux box to host everything. I'm hoping to get a cheap, gigantic IDE hard drive soon to complement it. PCX is a yucky format to store documentation in, I'm scanning all my stuff in as PDF's or compressed TIFFs, I'd like to stay away from GIFs because of all the legal weirdness going on with Unisys. I'm going to work on it this weekend, and hopefully I will have something up monday or tuesday. I'll let the list know... ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project > GREAT!!! I've been pondering where to stash the documents, which will > ultimately amount to about 100GB of scanned , maybe 25 GB of PCX-formatted > documents on disk drives, which will compress, of course, but the volume > grows steadily as I muck out. > > What I want is for all the hardware doc's I've saved all these years to be > available to whoever needs them. > > Is that consistent with what you're planning? > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason McBrien > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:52 PM > Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project > > > >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and > >technical documents for all different types of old computers. Before I put > >it up for all to enjoy, I need to write a legal disclaimer saying, to the > >effect, that I make no claim to own anything and to the best of my > knowledge > >it's all public domain info. Anyone know how I should word it, or anyone > >have an example on their web site? Thanks in advance. > > > >-Jason McBrien > >-Wayne State University > >-Big Iron Fiend > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Nov 18 16:53:57 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: New toy (Fat Mac 512) Message-ID: <13500666119.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> And that's just what the nameplate says, "FAT MAC 512". Came with a disk with version 4.1 of Finder (Unknown MacOS) Finder says it's by Bruce Horn and Steve Capps, (C) 1985 Apple Computer. The Mac itself has the keyboard, mouse, and a printer, and an external disk drive. Got it for $10 at a garage sale. This would make a perfect console for the PDP-11 if I can find a terminal program for it. ^_^ The machine is in beautiful condition. Not a scratch on it. I'm gonna try keeping it that way. ^_^ I was told by the seller it was a broken word processor, it just flashed a question when she turned it on. (The disk was jammed halfway in the drive. A quick application of car keys fixed that. ^_^ Didn't roach the drive either.) I may take pictures later. (ObSlashdot)Wonder what I could do with a Beowulf cluster of these... ^_^ ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 18 15:53:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Rodrigo Ventura" at Nov 18, 99 08:06:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3762 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991118/398e2394/attachment.ksh From jallain at databaseamerica.com Thu Nov 18 17:05:26 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Some More VAXish (SYSBOOT) questions.. In-Reply-To: <001101bf2f81$69459e00$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <000001bf3219$67eeaed0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Well, my resources concerning SYSBOOT limited to: From memory: [Ctrl/P] Switch to Processor Console Mode H Halt a running system (Worse than crashing it) I Initialize (Program counter??) U Unjam (??) B Boot (From curent parameters??) From AA-LA00B-TE, Sys Mgr's Manual (for V5.2): USE DEFAULT.PAR "Emergency Startup After Modifying System Parameters" SET/STARTUP Designate a Console Device CONTINUE Return control to the Boot The Sys Mgr's Manual then refers to: "VAX Processor Installation and Operations Guide" for detailed booting instructions. That's all I have. Anybody else want to add anything? John.A -----Original Reply----- Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 10:52 AM -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of benjamin Gardiner Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 2:37 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Some More VAXish questions.. Well, thanks to all those who replied last time. I think I may be getting somewhare with the vax. cant get the tape drive or deqna cards working, (their leds tell me something is wrong) but that is not what I am going to be asking about. When I try and boot the vax, I get Loading system software, 2..1..0.. %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file DUDRIVER.EXE ?06 HLT INST PC = 0000692B now I can get into the sysboot utility, have no idea what to do here. Is there a way I can get around this missing file, is the some command at the chevrons (>>>) or the sysboot> that I can use to get round this? Thanks Benjamin -- www.carnagevisors.net From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 17:11:09 1999 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project References: <4.1.19991118172533.00af0ea0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <19991118231315.20144.qmail@hotmail.com> Maybe not public domain, but I don't think, for example, Commodore (or whoever owns them now) would mind posting the schematics for the C64, or if someone were to scan in the owners manual for a TI/99, or a VAX 11/750 technical manual. Otherwise, if a company goes belly-up, who owns the copyright then? The disclaimer I'm looking to write acknologes all copyrights, and would allow the holders to request that I take them down, as long as they can proove that the copyright is still valid and that they own it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 5:41 PM Subject: Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project > Public Domain? Not if there's any indication of a copyright on them. > > That disclaimer you plan to write will not cut it if there is a copyright > on the documents. Very few documents could be considered PD unless they did > not have a specific copyright notice OR if there is a general specific > release given by the copyright holder to PD OR the copyright holder gives > *you* permission to hang it out on your website for the public to see with > a notice stating the copyright holder still retains copyright. Recently > revised copyright laws make *everything* copyrighted nowadays. > > US Government printed documentation is usually not copyrighted and > therefore PD, for example, that is if it's not classified or secret. > Military technical manuals on mil radios and mil electronic test equipment > are in this category. After all, the US *public* paid for writing, > preparing and printing them. I've got about nine shelf-feet of such manuals > in my collection. > > If you find Government printed computer manuals you should be out of > trouble. But what computers that we'd have in our collections would have > gov't. issue manuals? > > Regards, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 18 17:04:32 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project) References: <4.1.19991118172533.00af0ea0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <38348600.6824E72D@mainecoon.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > > Upon the date 03:47 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Jason McBrien said something like: > >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and > >technical documents for all different types of old computers. [snip] > Public Domain? Not if there's any indication of a copyright on them. > > That disclaimer you plan to write will not cut it if there is a copyright > on the documents. That's correct, and thanks to pressure from the likes of disney the duration of US copyrights these days is incredibly long. FWIW, I've been trying to get DG to provide copyright release for prints, diagnostic listings, diagnostic binaries and the like for Novas and the 16-bit Eclipse line. email, fax and voice messages go in, nothing comes out. Similarly with Ball, who once upon a time owned Decision Consulatants, who manufatured a very nice diablo 33 controller for the Nova bus. > If you find Government printed computer manuals you should be out of > trouble. But what computers that we'd have in our collections would have > gov't. issue manuals? Not even the ones for my Rolm 16xx stuff. Rolm's copyright persists into the US Government documents :-( Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 18 17:46:21 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project) In-Reply-To: <38348600.6824E72D@mainecoon.com> References: <4.1.19991118172533.00af0ea0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991118154223.03dfd970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Someone (Chris Kennedy) else wrote: >FWIW, I've been trying to get DG to provide copyright release for >prints, diagnostic listings, diagnostic binaries and the like for >Novas and the 16-bit Eclipse line. email, fax and voice messages >go in, nothing comes out. Similarly with Ball, who once upon a >time owned Decision Consulatants, who manufatured a very nice >diablo 33 controller for the Nova bus. I believe there is a Copyright forfeiture rule you can invoke which requires a best effort attempt to obtain a right to use a copyright from its holder with no response. If they actually said "No, you can't do that." then that is one thing but if they don't respond at all, and you document that, you can get the court so revert the document to the public domain. I know of at least one case where this was done with a defunct computer company. (I believe it was Eagle PC but I'll need to find the reference to be sure.) --Chuck From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 18 17:49:29 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentiation Project Message-ID: <199911182349.PAA07015@spies.com> Just to let folks know on the list that don't know about it already, www.spies.com/aek/orphan.html is a collection of documentation from dead computer companies. Other scanned docs exist for companies that are still around, as well as pointers to other sites. It may make sense to start a list of documentation and software that exists in private collectors hands to avoid duplication of effort, as has already happened with PDP-8 doc scanning, and to help others who have the iron, but not the bits. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 18 17:50:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project In-Reply-To: <19991118231315.20144.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Nov 18, 1999 06:11:09 PM Message-ID: <199911182350.PAA02742@shell1.aracnet.com> > Maybe not public domain, but I don't think, for example, Commodore (or > whoever owns them now) would mind posting the schematics for the C64, or if Tulip owns the C64 portion of Commodore last I heard, Gateway owns the Amiga. > someone were to scan in the owners manual for a TI/99, or a VAX 11/750 > technical manual. Otherwise, if a company goes belly-up, who owns the The VAX 11/750 is the perfect example of one that most likely *would* be a problem. Unless I'm mistaken you can still *buy* the manual, and I'm not sure but the machines might still be supported. Compaq has pledged support for VAX for a MINIMUM of 10 more years. NOTE: a lot of PDP-11 and VAX manuals are still listed as being available for sale from Compaq, I wouldn't be surprised if they are ALL available. > copyright then? The disclaimer I'm looking to write acknologes all > copyrights, and would allow the holders to request that I take them down, as > long as they can proove that the copyright is still valid and that they own > it. Actually most likely they don't have to prove anything. Copyright is getting very, very ugly. I gather that a lot of stuff that has passed into the public domain and has been included in Project Gutenberg is likely to pass back into copyrighted status. As someone else pointed out the evil entity known as Di$ney is blame for a lot of this. After all you wouldn't want Mickey Mouse to pass into public domain would you? It's all a very sticky mess, you might want to take a look at some of the info that Project Gutenberg has. Zane From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 18 18:36:04 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project) In-Reply-To: <38348600.6824E72D@mainecoon.com> References: <4.1.19991118172533.00af0ea0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991118193240.00aede50@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:04 PM 11/18/99 -0800, Chris Kennedy said something like: >Christian Fandt wrote: >> >> Upon the date 03:47 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Jason McBrien said something like: >> >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and >> >technical documents for all different types of old computers. -- snip -- >> If you find Government printed computer manuals you should be out of >> trouble. But what computers that we'd have in our collections would have >> gov't. issue manuals? > >Not even the ones for my Rolm 16xx stuff. Rolm's copyright >persists into the US Government documents :-( Must be some docs for a government contract prepared outside of the contract at Rolm's (or the prime contractor's) expense. Often, anything printed under a government contract is not copyrighted. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 18 18:39:47 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentiation Project In-Reply-To: <199911182349.PAA07015@spies.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991118193705.00aedc70@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:49 PM 11/18/99 -0800, Al Kossow said something like: -- snip -- >It may make sense to start a list of documentation and software that >exists in private collectors hands to avoid duplication of effort, >as has already happened with PDP-8 doc scanning, and to help others >who have the iron, but not the bits. I'm all for that. I fall into that latter as I've got a bunch of hardware without docs and have found none around so far. Then, I've got some docs but not the iron . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 18 19:10:48 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentiation Project Message-ID: <199911190110.RAA10343@spies.com> "I'm all for that. I fall into that latter as I've got a bunch of hardware without docs and have found none around so far. Then, I've got some docs but not the iron . . . " I think most folks are in the same situation, and I REALLY hate it when I find out Frank, Eric, or someone else out here has a manual that I just paid out the nose for on eBay. I'd be willing to host this on spies, if folks feel like sending me lists of docs or sw that they have for non-consumer computers (minis, etc. someone else can take care of the micros..) and a contact adr. I'll have to do this by hand for now until I can put some scripts together that would let people add/delete things through a web interface. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 18 19:40:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentiation Project In-Reply-To: <199911190110.RAA10343@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Nov 18, 1999 05:10:48 PM Message-ID: <199911190140.RAA07741@shell1.aracnet.com> > I think most folks are in the same situation, and I REALLY hate it > when I find out Frank, Eric, or someone else out here has a manual > that I just paid out the nose for on eBay. I'd be willing to host > this on spies, if folks feel like sending me lists of docs or sw > that they have for non-consumer computers (minis, etc. someone else > can take care of the micros..) and a contact adr. I'll have to do > this by hand for now until I can put some scripts together that > would let people add/delete things through a web interface. One thing that might be cool is a list of doc's that people have available for *trade*. I don't know about everyone else, but I've got a growning collection of doc's that I'd like to trade for doc's that I don't have. This includes a large amount of DEC documentation. Don't you just love those eBay auctions where you bid on a whole pile of doc's just to get part of them. Zane From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 18 19:46:39 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentiation Project Message-ID: <199911190146.RAA11863@spies.com> "One thing that might be cool is a list of doc's that people have available for *trade*." That might be one of the fields in the record, along with # of copies. Or, if people have web pages, just a centralized list of 'have' and 'wanted' links would be handy. From ss at allegro.com Thu Nov 18 20:04:31 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:36 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question Message-ID: <199911190204.SAA25866@opus.allegro.com> Hi, I just received an IBM 5120, from Germany. The back says 200/210/220 volts at 50 Hz. However, opening it up and looking at the power supply reveals enough choices in wiring that I suspect the power supply might already be capable of being easily adapted to 110/60 Hz ... does anyone have any familiarity with this system? Otherwise, I'll be visiting Fry's for something (transformer?). thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From thompson at mail.athenet.net Thu Nov 18 21:22:37 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Some More VAXish (SYSBOOT) questions.. In-Reply-To: <000001bf3219$67eeaed0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: Hope this hasn't been covered and I missed it. If you're running the Vaxstation series you can do this below. Other VAXen might need a BOOT/R5:xxxxxxxxx to accomplish the same thing. B/e0000001 - boots standalone backup utility with SYSBOOT> so you can turn off the stupid time question (SET SETTIME 0 ) B/00000001 - boots default SYS0 image invoking SYSBOOT> SYSBOOT> commands include SET SETTIME 0 -- turn off time prompting, a personal favorite USE DEFAULT - in case you muck up your PARAMS SET STARTUP_P1 "min" for minimal start SET STARTUP_P2 "pdc" for startup to be logged in a SYS$something:startup.log file SET UAFALTERNATE 1 to boot past a forgotten SYSTEM password. SHOW * or SHOW /ALL (I can't recall which) shows all settings. If you don't have SDI/DSA disks (which I think is what DUDRIVER operates) you might want to check if clustering is being set in SYSBOOT, as well as things relating to SCS. On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, John Allain wrote: > > Well, my resources concerning SYSBOOT limited to: > > From memory: > [Ctrl/P] Switch to Processor Console Mode > H Halt a running system (Worse than crashing it) > I Initialize (Program counter??) > U Unjam (??) > B Boot (From curent parameters??) > > > 2..1..0.. > %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file DUDRIVER.EXE > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 0000692B > > now I can get into the sysboot utility, have no idea what to do here. > Is there a way I can get around this missing file, is the some command > at the chevrons (>>>) or the sysboot> > that I can use to get round this? > > Thanks > > Benjamin > > -- > www.carnagevisors.net > > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Nov 18 21:36:10 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: DEC and misc stuff available References: <4.1.19991117122212.00ae6160@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <3834C5A9.25753E1C@idirect.com> >Christian Fandt wrote: > Here is a list of DEC gear I must get rid of. It's a sizeable part > remaining of that Great Haul I had back in Summer '98. Setting out in our > garage. Also, some miscellaneous items are listed at end. > > Phone: 1.716.488.1722 from 08:00 to 20:30 EST. Location: Western NY State, > off the NYS Rt 17(very soon to be I-86), just past West side of Jamestown > on Rt. 394. > > Thanks for your interest. Please take it away soon! > > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ Jerome Fine replies: About how many minutes are you from the Peace Bridge crossing? And can you give a brief suggestion of how to get to your place? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 18 21:45:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Some More VAXish (SYSBOOT) questions.. Message-ID: <199911190345.WAA14060@world.std.com> <> Will it boot into a monitor without the h-27 attached and is there a comm <> reference somewhere around? ODT, yes. Boot program no unless on the 9400YA. the LSI-11 cpu does not have boot program. I forget if the H27 Qbus card has a boot. Either way most PDP-11 boots are not that long to type in via ODT. I don't know what the "ideal" format for storing complete documents with both text and graphic representations of their content. I also don't want to resurrect the virtual war that resulted when I previously offered to generate PDF formatted files from dozens of floppy and hard disk documents in my possession. My scanner likes to produce TIF files and I can send 'em to you that way or in any other format that's hopefully easier to ship. Emanuel Stiebler was kind enough to scan the SHUGART and SEAGATE documents I have. His OCR software, which, in the wake of the flame-war over format, he hasn't yet found time to apply, prefers 4-bit greyscale for the best conversion. Mine prefers single-bit, which is naturally a quarter the size, so since mine produces typically 1 MB/page, his produced considerably more than that, and when he brought his 8GB SCSI drive for me to copy those files, I had to lay it off to tape because I didn't have that much space on my server. That documentation comprises perhaps half of one percent of what I'd like to put out there, but I absolutely don't want to form and maintain a website, so I'm grateful that you're willing. In compressed PDF, you can probably host hudreds of documents. In PCX, which I agree is an icky format, but which is about 1/4 the size of the single-bit TIF files my scanner coughs up, you won't even be able to host half my Intel documents. OCR is a possiblity, but there's no realtively easy way to link converted text to the associated illustrations, which are plentiful among old hardware doc's, to say nothing of the text found within the illustrations. I'd say you've got a tough job ahead of you, and I'll be sure to let you know they're about to demolish one of those old stock-brokerage/insurance company buildings with a 750TB disk farm still in it. Nonetheless, if you come up with a way to solve this data format/transport problem, please share it with me. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jason McBrien To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project >Sure! The more the merrier. I'm starting out small, I only have about 9GB of >disk space on a Linux box to host everything. I'm hoping to get a cheap, >gigantic IDE hard drive soon to complement it. PCX is a yucky format to >store documentation in, I'm scanning all my stuff in as PDF's or compressed >TIFFs, I'd like to stay away from GIFs because of all the legal weirdness >going on with Unisys. I'm going to work on it this weekend, and hopefully I >will have something up monday or tuesday. I'll let the list know... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Richard Erlacher >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 5:30 PM >Subject: Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project > > >> GREAT!!! I've been pondering where to stash the documents, which will >> ultimately amount to about 100GB of scanned , maybe 25 GB of PCX-formatted >> documents on disk drives, which will compress, of course, but the volume >> grows steadily as I muck out. >> >> What I want is for all the hardware doc's I've saved all these years to be >> available to whoever needs them. >> >> Is that consistent with what you're planning? >> >> Dick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jason McBrien >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:52 PM >> Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project >> >> >> >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and >> >technical documents for all different types of old computers. Before I >put >> >it up for all to enjoy, I need to write a legal disclaimer saying, to the >> >effect, that I make no claim to own anything and to the best of my >> knowledge >> >it's all public domain info. Anyone know how I should word it, or anyone >> >have an example on their web site? Thanks in advance. >> > >> >-Jason McBrien >> >-Wayne State University >> >-Big Iron Fiend >> >> From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 18 23:25:48 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991118193240.00aede50@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 03:04 PM 11/18/99 -0800, Chris Kennedy said something like: > >Christian Fandt wrote: > >> > >> Upon the date 03:47 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Jason McBrien said something like: > >> >I am starting a documentation project to collect hardware manuals and > >> >technical documents for all different types of old computers. > -- snip -- > > >> If you find Government printed computer manuals you should be out of > >> trouble. But what computers that we'd have in our collections would have > >> gov't. issue manuals? > > > >Not even the ones for my Rolm 16xx stuff. Rolm's copyright > >persists into the US Government documents :-( > > Must be some docs for a government contract prepared outside of the > contract at Rolm's (or the prime contractor's) expense. Often, anything > printed under a government contract is not copyrighted. I suspect that the distinction is whether the material was developed at government expense rather than who printed it. After all, it is the content that is copyrighted, not the manual itself. - don > Regards, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 19 01:31:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware DocumentationProject) Message-ID: <000801bf3260$266ead60$0400c0a8@winbook> It can go either way. The information itself is likely to be property of the US Gov if it, and the hardware to which it pertains, was developed under U.S. contract. Nonetheless, unless the manual was actually printed by the GOV it may be copyrighted by the developer of the manual. You have to look at the copyright declaration in the document. With hardware documentation which was freely and customarily given away, e.g. separately from the hardware itself, like the OEM manual for a floppy drive, it's unlikely the copyright can be claimed to be of any substantial value. The owner of the copyright can probably cause you to stop publishing, posting, and distributing it, but since it was never sold, violating the owner's copyright cannot be interpreted as substantial damage to the owner, hence no basis for judgment for damages exists. Another thing is that if you publish the information in a format different from that in which it was published, i.e. flowed around the embedded illustrations in a different way, though it damages the value by fouling up references to the figures, it makes your document not necessarily the one which was copyrighted to the owner. It just depends on how useful the resulting document is. I don't know how helpful it is to know these things, but it's always useful to remember that nothing's etched in concrete where courts, judges, and lawyers are involved. Everything's subject to interpretation. It's just hard to imagine a court awarding damages to the holder of a copyright on a document pertaining to, and only to, a specific piece of hardware, the owner of which is the one party to whom that information is of interest, since it was for his benefit that the information existed in the first place, and it was generated to support the sale of that hardware, which purpose was clearly fulfilled at some time in the past. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware DocumentationProject) >> Must be some docs for a government contract prepared outside of the >> contract at Rolm's (or the prime contractor's) expense. Often, anything >> printed under a government contract is not copyrighted. > >I suspect that the distinction is whether the material was developed at >government expense rather than who printed it. After all, it is the >content that is copyrighted, not the manual itself. > > - don > From truthanl at oclc.org Fri Nov 19 04:03:48 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: 990/10 Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADF8@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> AL KOSSOW WRITES: ... I've had really bad luck with getting people to reply to email reqs for info on these systems (very frustrating..) Here is what I found Have with my systems. Many of theese DOCs are three hole punched, But Heavy Machine stapled as well: 990 Computer Family Systems Handbook Manual NO.945250-9701 Copyright 1975,1976 3rd Edition May 1976 paperback Handbook not ring bound ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- DS990 COMMERCIAL SYSTEMS (3-inch Ring Binder) DS990 Models 4, 6, and 8, Systems Installation and Operation Manual Part No. 946284-9701 *A 15 September 1980 Model 990 Computer Model 810 Printer Installation and Operation Part No. 939460-9701 *A 15 May 1979 Model 990 Computer Universal ROM Loader User's Guide Part No. 2270534-9701 ** 15 April 1980 Model 990 Computer Model 911 Video Display Terminal Installation and Operation Part No. 945423-9701 *B 15 October 1981 DS990 Models 4 Through 9 Systems Site Preparation Part No. 2250361-9701 *C 1 May 1981 Model 990/10 Computer System Hardware Reference Manual Part No. 945417-9701 *B 15 November 1980 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ Model 990/10 Computer System Hardware Reference Manual Part No. 945417-9701 *A 15 November 1979 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Model 990 Computer TX990 Operating System Programmers Guide ( Release 2) Manual No. 946259-9701 Original issue 1 April 1977 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Model 990 Computer TMS9900 Microprocessor Assembly Language Programmer's Guide Manual No. 943441-9701 Original Issue 1 June 1974 Revised and reissued 1 January 1976 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- DS990 Commercial Systems ( 2.75-inch Ring Binder) Model 990 Computer Model DS10 Cartridge Disk System Installation and Operation Part No. 946261-9701 *A 15 August 1980 Model 990 Computer DS990 System Installation and Operation Manual Part No. 946284-9701 1 April 1979 Model 990 Computer Model 911 Video Display Terminal Installation and Operation Manual No. 945423-9701 Original issue 1 June 1977 Revised and reissued 15 January 1979 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- DX10 OPERATING SYSTEM Operation Guide Part No. 946250-9702 *F Volume II I have three of the DS10 Cartridge Disk Drives and 6 Removable Cartridge (Platters) IF I Have the DX 10 OS Software, I need learn how to get "down" to it. I started reading about serveral command syntax programmer interfaces. One Called SCI, another Called OCP, and then of coarse the DX10 OS Command syntax. From M.Malik at roehampton.ac.uk Fri Nov 19 04:55:57 1999 From: M.Malik at roehampton.ac.uk (Mubasher Malik) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Even Bigger problem with VMS Message-ID: <199911191051.KAA12013@max.roehampton.ac.uk> Hi, I have an old Vax 4100a/VMS 6.2 machine and have tried what was suggested here: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/1997- 07/msg00447.html The problem I have is that the system disk is full (probably due to log files) and I am unable to boot up because of this. It does not work even with minium boot, I just want to be able to boot to the system disk and to delete/purge some files to get the system back up again. Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mubasher Malik Snr Systems Engineer C&IT (M.I.S Team) Roehampton Institute London Tel: 00 44 (0)208 392 3122 Fax: 00 44 (0)208 392 3182 e-mail: M.Malik@roehampton.ac.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Fri Nov 19 05:50:40 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:53:33 +0000 (GMT)" References: Message-ID: >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Only yesterday I dear the pdf's of the Daybreak tech ref manual (cited in this thread)! It was frustrating because althought it corroborated everything I've discovered, it did not explained what I have not yet discovered, namely the KEYBOARD CODES!!! Does anyone know the actual keyboard codes? I guess this is the big question right now. Tony> What are you using for a monitor? At a quick glance, the Tony> Daybreak monitor has ECL inputs for sync and video, and no Tony> idea what the scan rate is.. I don't recall the excat values, but I got from a digital osciloscope, the following values: HSYNC: 28kHz VSYNC: 76Hz I have a mono monitor with HSYNC at 15kHz and VSYNC at 50Hz, which I was able to hack (!) in order to sync to the above values. I use a simple transistor buffer to convert from the ECL output to the 75OHM load of the monitor. I can give you further details on this if you want. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 19 07:53:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Even Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <199911191051.KAA12013@max.roehampton.ac.uk> Message-ID: > The problem I have is that the system disk is full (probably due to > log files) and I am unable to boot up because of this. It does not > work even with minium boot, I just want to be able to boot to the > system disk and to delete/purge some files to get the system back > up again. NOT likely. If anything the disk is crashed or you've by some other means overwritten something important. I've never seen that kind of problem before even with my VS2000 with only a RD53 (also full! So full the swap and page files are on a second drive.). Try from systboot: B/100 >>>set STARTUP_P1 "MIN" >>>CONT From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 19 10:33:29 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Materialthickness) In-Reply-To: References: <199911181620.RAA01304@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <199911191534.QAA03482@mail2.siemens.de> > >> >> P.S.: When designing a new cooler element/radiator, keep in mind that > >> >> silver is a way better thermal conductor than Al or Cu. > >It's a simple design, operating just on water, and always around > >room temperature - and I pushed an K6-2 300 up to 500 MHz... > >(Of course copper would also be ok ... I just compared the price, > >and for less than 50 bucks difference I got a cool silver thingy :) > With a cooler that is chip/plate/water don't you want to keep the "plate" > as thin as possible? Jep, since phi = lambda*S*delta-T / delta . Just, I didn't use a simple plate and only one waterlayer, but rather a system of pipes (drilled holes) to have a) a better controll for the water flow and b) enlarge the plate / water contact by three. As larger the surface (S) as higher the possible thermal current (vulgo amount of transported heat). I can't enlarge the chips surface, so S is fixed between chip and 'plate', but I can enlarge S between 'plate' and water. The minimal thickness is defined by your tools and skills - I used 0.8 mm (~1/30 inch) as minimal thickness betreen one pipe and the chip. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 19 09:16:07 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: FT/S: Commodore 1902A monitor only In-Reply-To: <199911190802.AAA23550@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: All, A friend of mine is looking to dispose of a spare monitor he picked up. It is a commodore 1902A (sic?) monitor unit, appearance OK but operational condition unknown. He'd like to exchange it for hoary old software (preferably) or $5 + shipping costs. Contact him by email at: robklar@swri.edu. Thanks, - Mark From stefan.boss at gmx.net Fri Nov 19 10:56:12 1999 From: stefan.boss at gmx.net (Stefan Boss) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Old plasma display Message-ID: <1144.943030572@www12.gmx.net> Hello I have an old Matsushita plasma displays (from a Compaq PC I think). Do you have any information about this (or a similar) display... any datasheets about data communication or the power connector pins??? The display has the numbers MD400F640PD5 7.0.13 C:60963 I'm very glad if you could help me... yours sincerely, Stefan PS: I'm a student from Switzerland and I might be interessted to write a assembler-program with my microcontroller system (MC68HC11G5) for the display. Reference: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/1998-08/msg01244.html -- Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Nov 19 11:40:14 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available Message-ID: <19991119114014.G16230@mrbill.net> Well, for those of us who cant have our own 11/34s, here's hte next best thing: Path: news.onr.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.tli.de !do.de.uu.net!f.de.uu.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!gmd.de !gmdtub!not-for-mail From: Hartmut Brandt Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Version 2.4 of the p11 PDP-11 emulator Date: 19 Nov 1999 15:04:33 GMT Organization: GMD-FIRST Lines: 49 Message-ID: <813ou1$lp7$1@freebsd.first.gmd.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: scotty.fokus.gmd.de User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.0-CURRENT (i386)) Xref: news.onr.com alt.sys.pdp11:644 Version 2.4 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following platforms: FreeBSD 4.0 Sparc-Solaris 2.[5678] Redhat-Linux It will possibly work on FreeBSD [23].* and other Linux variants. To build it you need libbegemot (avalaible in the same location), gcc and gmake. Previous versions also built on BSD/OS and SunOS. A version of the emulator is run on one of our machines. Try one of the following (it may not always be available): telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10000 telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10001 telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10002 telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10003 to get connected to one of the four available terminals. If telnet connects, but this terminal is currently in use, you'll get a short message. You should then try connecting to another port. Once you are online, log into 2.11BSD with username and password guest/guest1. Don't forget to logout, before disconnecting with telnet. Note, that there is an IP connection to the host machine, but not to the outside world (this is due to IP routing restrictions in out network). The current implementation emulates a KDJ11A, one or more RLV12, RHV??, RK11 disk controllers, a boot ROM, one or more KL11A controllers, on FreeBSD and Linux a DEQNA ethernet adapter, a read-only TM11 tape and a standard line printer interface. A boot ROM (with source code) to boot from RL/RK and RP discs is included. On a 450MHz Pentium-III a full 'make world install' of 2.11BSD takes around 6 hours, which is several times faster than a real PDP. Floating point performance is even higher. The emulator hast tested with 2.11BSD, RSX and RSX-PLUS, RT V4, V[4567]-Unix and XXDP. Enjoy, Harti B. Brandt -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.gmd.de, harti@begemot.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 19 14:01:00 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991118172533.00af0ea0@206.231.8.2> References: <19991118204930.44639.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199911191901.UAA06912@mail2.siemens.de> > Public Domain? Not if there's any indication of a copyright on them. > That disclaimer you plan to write will not cut it if there is a copyright > on the documents. Very few documents could be considered PD unless they did > not have a specific copyright notice OR if there is a general specific > release given by the copyright holder to PD OR the copyright holder gives > *you* permission to hang it out on your website for the public to see with > a notice stating the copyright holder still retains copyright. Recently > revised copyright laws make *everything* copyrighted nowadays. ALso you may have to take into account that other countries may have complete different Copyright laws. For example, German law defines three complete different positions within: a) The Copyright is strictly limited to natural persons. No company or whatsever may hold a copyright. Also a person is _unable_ to sell this right. If you are issueing some work, it's yours until the end of time. Business is still not restricted, since you are entiteled to sell comerial usage of your work on a royality base. These comercial right are also only valid for a limited time beyond your lifespan. b) To be copyrighted a pice of work has to reach a 'non trivial level'. So a simple note may or may not be copyrighted - even a book may not, althrough based on regular court decisions it's hard to do this. b) There is no thing like Public Domain. Every work (if it reaches a defined level) is copyrighted. It is just impossible to give up your copyright (like it's impossible to give up your human rights - well basicly the same idea). You may choose not to use your right and pursue violators, but never give up your basic copyright. Well, this isn't ideal world, so in every days business the situation is the same. Gruss H. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Nov 19 13:15:49 1999 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: VT220's available in Kansas City Message-ID: I have 3 VT220's with keyboards that are available. I'm not sure the keyboards are vintage VT220 but they are DEC. 2 VT220-AC white screen 1 VT220-BC green screen They are not in great shape they were manufactured in 1985-1986 and have been in use in our microbiology lab. They work!!! If you pay shipping and packing they are yours. If you are close we can work out other means. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 19 13:36:05 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Materialthickness) In-Reply-To: <199911191534.QAA03482@mail2.siemens.de> References: <199911181620.RAA01304@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >> With a cooler that is chip/plate/water don't you want to keep the "plate" >> as thin as possible? > >Jep, since phi = lambda*S*delta-T / delta . Just, I didn't use a >simple plate and only one waterlayer, but rather a system of pipes >(drilled holes) to have a) a better controll for the water flow and >b) enlarge the plate / water contact by three. As larger the >surface (S) as higher the possible thermal current (vulgo amount >of transported heat). I can't enlarge the chips surface, so S is >fixed between chip and 'plate', but I can enlarge S between 'plate' >and water. > >The minimal thickness is defined by your tools and skills - I used >0.8 mm (~1/30 inch) as minimal thickness betreen one pipe and the >chip. Since we are talking fluid cooling, anybody putting a heatsink on both sides of the chip? I would not worry too much about the water side, pressure and flow can work wonders there, but would keep the copper plate just thick enough to avoid hot spots and cover as much of the chip surface as electrically possible. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 19 15:08:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Materialthickness) In-Reply-To: References: <199911191534.QAA03482@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <199911192009.VAA20956@mail2.siemens.de> > >> With a cooler that is chip/plate/water don't you want to keep the "plate" > >> as thin as possible? > >Jep, since phi = lambda*S*delta-T / delta . Just, I didn't use a > >simple plate and only one waterlayer, but rather a system of pipes > >(drilled holes) to have a) a better controll for the water flow and > >b) enlarge the plate / water contact by three. As larger the > >surface (S) as higher the possible thermal current (vulgo amount > >of transported heat). I can't enlarge the chips surface, so S is > >fixed between chip and 'plate', but I can enlarge S between 'plate' > >and water. > >The minimal thickness is defined by your tools and skills - I used > >0.8 mm (~1/30 inch) as minimal thickness betreen one pipe and the > >chip. > Since we are talking fluid cooling, anybody putting a heatsink on both > sides of the chip? > I would not worry too much about the water side, pressure and flow can work > wonders there, but would keep the copper plate just thick enough to avoid > hot spots and cover as much of the chip surface as electrically possible. Well, sounds gut at first sight - just three problems: First you have only a _very_ small free area on the 'other' side - there are some nasty pins, and somehor it is no-good to touch them. Ans second, this is hard to do in any standard board - and even with custom extenders you still have to connect them and the wire length becomes a problem - adding 10% corespeed and loosing 20% bus speed isn't exactly a gain. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Nov 19 14:42:43 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: a little more info (was: going soon...) Message-ID: <199911192042.PAA19787@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I've now got a little more info about those machines in Woodbridge VA. Here is an excerpt from the e-mail: > If you have one or two people that are serious about this, that would be ok, > but maybe not a dozen.... I looked around a bit on Friday and the DEC is a > PDP 11/34, there are several old IBM (and other ) pc's, printers (atleast 2 > NEC spinwriters and other Oki, epson and Lord knows what else) and boxes & > boxes of old software. Boxes of old boards.... just a plethora of fun, sorta > like going thru Grammas attic... Unfortunately, it sounds like mostly PC stuff. And he does not want to deal with a dozen different people. So, I'd like to choose two designated information-collectors to meet at the warehouse (or factory, or whatever it is) and make a list of what's there. If these things are really going for free, we'll want to work out a way of avoiding conflicts, so nobody feels cheated. I suggested that this guy may want to take offers as a way of resolving it, but I don't know if he'll do that. If he does, I recommend bidding _low_, since he wasn't planning to make money out of this. I expect he will choose a date in the first weekend of December for viewing the heap. (He will be out of town this weekend.) If you want to volunteer to be on the info-collection team, let me know. If I get more than two, I'll choose by rolling dice. If a chosen person has to back out, I'll roll the dice again. Also, after this, I will be sending only to the list of people who have expressed an interest, not to the entire classiccmp list. If you want to be kept informed, and are seeing this only through the classiccmp mailing list, you need to let me know to add you to my own list of interested people. Cheers, Bill. From dogas at leading.net Fri Nov 19 14:46:43 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <01bf32cf$300646c0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> From: Allison J Parent thanks, >Watch out for the PS, the heath design was a switching low voltage design >and tended to fry itself. I don't suppose you have a modification to prevent this do you? :) > >Allison > Thanks, Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Fri Nov 19 14:53:37 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <01bf32d0$27116120$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> From: Allison J Parent >ODT, yes... What are the commands available? And where can I find the boot sequences? Which is kindofa moot point right now because I don't have an os disk. ;( And what are all the device names? Thanks yet again, - Mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 19 15:08:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! Message-ID: I finally have a PDP-8/m. On the 1st of November someone that knows I'm looking for one notified me of a Internet auction that was ending in about 4 hours, and I was able to get the winning bid of $356 in (thankfully this wasn't on eBay). M8330 -- Timing board (system clock) M8310 \_ KK8E CPU control M8300 / KK8E CPU registers M847 -- MI8E Hardware Bootstrap Loader. M848 -- KP8E Power fail and auto-restart. M849 -- shield to isolate memory from CPU M8650 -- KL8E RS232 or current loop serial interface. G104 \ H220 > MM8E 4K memory (H220) G227 / M8320 -- KK8E Bus terminator It arrived today, and I just unboxed it a few minutes ago. As a result you can see the web page with pictures at the following URL: http://zane.brouhaha.com/healyzh/PDP8m.html Now, I've got to figure out where I'm going to put it for the time being. I also need to figure out what a couple of the cables that were included are for. Unfortunatly I think the console interface is a 20ma interface. However, there is a Canon plug that I've no idea what it goes to. I'll be cleaning it up before I try and fire it up. Unfortunatly I've got to leave for work in a little over an hour so that will have to wait till tomorrow. Also, the module list that I announced yesterday has grown in size considerably and now includes at least a few parts from the following systems: PDP-4 PDP-5 PDP-6 PDP-7 PDP-8 PDP-9 PDP-10 PDP-12 PDP-14 Programmable Controller PDP-15 PDP-16 The YADML can be found at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/ModuleList.txt Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dogas at leading.net Fri Nov 19 15:12:17 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <01bf32d2$c21c0380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >I don't suppose you have a modification to prevent this do you? :) Nevermind, I found the reference to the H780... >Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From aek at spies.com Fri Nov 19 15:29:27 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! Message-ID: <199911192129.NAA12089@spies.com> "PDP-14 Programmable Controller " From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 19 15:35:12 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: a little more info (was: going soon...) References: <199911192042.PAA19787@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3835C290.365F4BBF@idirect.com> >Bill Yakowenko wrote: > I've now got a little more info about those machines in Woodbridge VA. > Here is an excerpt from the e-mail: > > If you have one or two people that are serious about this, that would be ok, > > but maybe not a dozen.... I looked around a bit on Friday and the DEC is a > > PDP 11/34, there are several old IBM (and other ) pc's, printers (atleast 2 > > NEC spinwriters and other Oki, epson and Lord knows what else) and boxes & > > boxes of old software. Boxes of old boards.... just a plethora of fun, sorta > > like going thru Grammas attic... > Unfortunately, it sounds like mostly PC stuff. And he does not want to > deal with a dozen different people. > [Snip] > Also, after this, I will be sending only to the list of people who > have expressed an interest, not to the entire classiccmp list. If > you want to be kept informed, and are seeing this only through the > classiccmp mailing list, you need to let me know to add you to my > own list of interested people. Jerome Fine replies: Please include me. My primary interest is RT-11 software. After that, I look for PDP-11 Qbus hardware - so I can keep the RT-11 software running. I am not interested in PC software/hardware. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From stevejaskoski at hotmail.com Fri Nov 19 15:50:26 1999 From: stevejaskoski at hotmail.com (Steve Jaskoski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: donation of computer Message-ID: <19991119215026.37436.qmail@hotmail.com> To whoever may be interested: Would anyone be interested in a donation of a 286 AT clone, equipped with a 20MB hard drive, 5 1/4-in floppy, and Samsung monochrome monitor? The machine no longer operates, so it may be of interest only as a museum piece representative of a common desktop computer of the mid-1980s. If anyone is interested, please reply to my email address below. Sincerely, Steve Jaskoski stevejaskoski@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 19 15:52:27 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available References: <19991119114014.G16230@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3835C69B.5CC586E1@idirect.com> >Bill Bradford wrote: > Well, for those of us who cant have our own 11/34s, here's hte next > best thing: > > Version 2.4 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on > ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following > platforms: > > FreeBSD 4.0 > Sparc-Solaris 2.[5678] > Redhat-Linux Jerome Fine replies: If you are using hardware which runs any of the above three OSs, then you may not be using a PC with W95/98. Now, I would be the very last person (well maybe not the very last - I have heard some rants about W95/98 and while I think they are mostly justified I refrain from such strong language) to recommend W95/98, but I have given in because that is all I have available to use for e-mail and news groups and I don't feel like investing that much time in a VMS system that I can't find support for plus I don't have room for a grey wall. So please let us not get off topic since I will agree with you. BUT, there is a wonderful hobby emulator that runs under DOS/W95/W98 call Eratz-11 or E11 for short by John Wilson. So if you can't have your own 11/34 and you do have a PC, the free hobby emulator is at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/ It also emulates many other Unibus CPUs and most of the Qbus CPUs. There is also a commercial version which is even better than the hobby version. I understand there will be a commercial version for the PC which runs under Linux. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 19 16:01:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project Message-ID: <000801bf32d9$969b10a0$0400c0a8@winbook> It seems to me that there are cases such as government funded privately (by contract) generated documents in which ownership of the information is public, but ownership of the document itself, i.e. the layout, text formatting, etc, is property of the party or parties who generate and print it. In the case of hardware, the information is part of a patent, not part of the document in which it is presented, therefore subject to prevailing patent law not copyright. This, like most legal matters, is probably subject to the whim of whatever court your adversary manages to get to hear the matter if you don't beat him to the punch, however, until such time as superior court decisions etch it in firmer material. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 19, 1999 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project >> Public Domain? Not if there's any indication of a copyright on them. > >> That disclaimer you plan to write will not cut it if there is a copyright >> on the documents. Very few documents could be considered PD unless they did >> not have a specific copyright notice OR if there is a general specific >> release given by the copyright holder to PD OR the copyright holder gives >> *you* permission to hang it out on your website for the public to see with >> a notice stating the copyright holder still retains copyright. Recently >> revised copyright laws make *everything* copyrighted nowadays. > >ALso you may have to take into account that other countries may have >complete different Copyright laws. For example, German law defines >three complete different positions within: >a) The Copyright is strictly limited to natural persons. No company > or whatsever may hold a copyright. Also a person is _unable_ to > sell this right. If you are issueing some work, it's yours until > the end of time. Business is still not restricted, since you are > entiteled to sell comerial usage of your work on a royality base. > These comercial right are also only valid for a limited time beyond > your lifespan. >b) To be copyrighted a pice of work has to reach a 'non trivial level'. > So a simple note may or may not be copyrighted - even a book may not, > althrough based on regular court decisions it's hard to do this. >b) There is no thing like Public Domain. Every work (if it reaches a > defined level) is copyrighted. It is just impossible to give up your > copyright (like it's impossible to give up your human rights - well > basicly the same idea). You may choose not to use your right and > pursue violators, but never give up your basic copyright. > >Well, this isn't ideal world, so in every days business the situation >is the same. > >Gruss >H. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 19 16:15:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available In-Reply-To: <3835C69B.5CC586E1@idirect.com> References: <19991119114014.G16230@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >BUT, there is a wonderful hobby emulator that runs under DOS/W95/W98 >call Eratz-11 or E11 for short by John Wilson. So if you can't have your >own 11/34 and you do have a PC, the free hobby emulator is at: >http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/ FYI, for the truely crazy (namely me) it seems to work just fine under Virtual PC on a PowerMac. Haven't tried connecting a VT420 to it though, yet. However, I'd be interested in hearing peoples results with the originally mentioned emulator. Bob Supnik's is quite excellent with better support from the looks of things, but it looks as if the Begemot PDP-11 emulator will do a couple things it won't (multiple terminals and DEQNA emulation). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Nov 19 16:21:07 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: What's RT-11's device name for TMSCP tapes? Message-ID: <13500922287.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [This line is here to make listproc stop bugging me] The subject says it all. (SUBJECT is one of listproc's commands and so it can't be on the first line of the message. ^_^) ------- From aek at spies.com Fri Nov 19 16:38:56 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available Message-ID: <199911192238.OAA15167@spies.com> "Bob Supnik's is quite excellent with better support from the looks of things" What is the status now of Bob's work, now that he has left DEC? I thought I heard that Megan was working on 10 support, for example. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 19 16:41:12 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: keyboard keys Message-ID: <199911192241.WAA05419@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I'm restoring a TRS-80 model 1, 16K level II basic, cassette tape version (though I dont have a cassette tape player yet, just lots of tape software). Anyways, every key seems to have keybounce problems. These keys are the kind with a rectangular tube which, when depressed, allows two contacts (one flat and one with about 4 prongs) to come into contact with each other. There is a strange mustard-like substance in each key in various places near the contacts. I'm wondering if this yellow stuff is supposed to be there, ie, is it some sort of conductive rust preventative? Is it supposed to be the color of old mustard, or has it seriously decayed in the past 21+ years? Suggestions on how to properly clean/refurbish this to near-new condition would be appreciated. -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 19 13:22:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Xerox D-series workstations In-Reply-To: from "Rodrigo Ventura" at Nov 19, 99 11:50:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1856 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991119/f4473b6a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 19 13:08:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: <199911190204.SAA25866@opus.allegro.com> from "Stan Sieler" at Nov 18, 99 06:04:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4914 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991119/3e4920c9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 19 17:08:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 19, 99 01:08:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991119/a90b259a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 19 17:14:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: keyboard keys In-Reply-To: <199911192241.WAA05419@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Nov 19, 99 10:41:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1279 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991119/0e12b9cc/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 19 18:18:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 19, 1999 11:08:47 PM Message-ID: <199911200018.QAA31087@shell1.aracnet.com> > The board order on Omnibus machines is not that critical, and there's no > grant chain or anything like that, so you don't need grant continuity > cards and you can have empty slots between boards if you want. Ah, didn't know this, good to know. > However, it's normal to put the M849 just in front of the core memory. In > other words to have an order something like : > M8330 Clock > CPU cards > I/O cards > M849 shield > Core > M8320 terminator > > So in your case swap round the M8560 and the M849. > > It shouldn't really matter, but... You're right, although I'm honestly not 100% sure what order the cards are in the machine. That was the list that was provided to me. I'm going to be pulling all the cards out and cleaning the system up tomorrow anyway. I've had the 3 volume PDP-8e/f/m set for a while, so I'll probably be using it to go through and check out the system. With, I would assume, plenty of questions for the list. I'm afraid I got the machine a little over an hour before I had to leave for work, so I've not had much of anytime to look at it. (Gotta confess, the web page was all ready to go, just needed pictures and to be linked in.) > According to the prints for the M8650, it's got both current loop and > RS232 (EIA) buffers. You just have to use the right cable, which is the > same as the cable you use with a DL11E (or whatever) in a PDP11. Cool! I just happen to have a cable that's been sitting on the front seat of my Pickup for the last couple of weeks that should work. > > However, there is a Canon plug that I've no idea what it goes to. > > Well, trace the cable... That would tell me it's a ground cable :^) Unfortunalty neither end is attached to anything, except one wire is attached to ground. One end is a 10-pin Cannon Plug, the other end is a 28-pin connector (flat double row connector 14 pins per half, never can remember the name for these) with one hole plugged to key it. Zane From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Nov 19 18:27:23 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: DEC and misc stuff available In-Reply-To: <3834C5A9.25753E1C@idirect.com> References: <4.1.19991117122212.00ae6160@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991119191358.00b10ec0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:36 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Jerome Fine said something like: >>Christian Fandt wrote: > >> Here is a list of DEC gear I must get rid of. It's a sizeable part >> remaining of that Great Haul I had back in Summer '98. Setting out in our >> garage. Also, some miscellaneous items are listed at end. >> >> Phone: 1.716.488.1722 from 08:00 to 20:30 EST. Location: Western NY State, >> off the NYS Rt 17(very soon to be I-86), just past West side of Jamestown >> on Rt. 394. >> >> Thanks for your interest. Please take it away soon! >> >> Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >> Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net >> Member of Antique Wireless Association >> URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > >Jerome Fine replies: > >About how many minutes are you from the Peace Bridge crossing? >And can you give a brief suggestion of how to get to your place? Hi Jerome, Sorry to say the DEC gear was quickly spoken for by a fellow out in Colorado. Seems it didn't faze him as to the weight and volume of everything -he indicates he'd rent a U-Haul or somesuch and come and get it. Well, that's okay provided he follows thru. Since last fall -a year now- I'd thought another fellow from California wanted it. He seemed to be hot for it but he never kept up communication with me and I can't contact him anymore. Now, if the CO fellow ends up not taking it then I'll get in touch with you. You intended on taking *all* the DEC gear? You hadn't indicated that in your msg above. Anyway, I *just* got home ten minutes ago from a web site designing seminar held at the Hyatt in mid-Buffalo and it was about 75-80 minutes (at 70 MPH on the Interstate). We're West of the West side of Jamestown. You should be able to find Houston Avenue on one of those Mapquest sites. Full address below just in case. I'm hoping that the fellow comes out within the next month or two. Thanks for your reply and interest Jerome. Regards, Chris -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue Phone: +716-488-1722 Jamestown, New York email: cfandt@netsync.net 14701-2627 USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Nov 19 18:43:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available Message-ID: <199911200043.TAA09499@world.std.com> >"Bob Supnik's is quite excellent with better support >from the looks of things" Bob's emulator is quite good, but a drawback is that it doesn't have MSCP emulation or Ethernet emulation. E11 (Ersatz-11) has both. I believe that Viking does as well. I don't know about Charon... >What is the status now of Bob's work, now that he has left DEC? >I thought I heard that Megan was working on 10 support, for example. Me? 10 Support? No... I'm simply working on trying to get my KS10 operational, while working off and on on a pdp-10 emulator, using Bob's package as a base. I have been working toward a KA10 emulator with conditionals (where I understand things enough) to do the right thing for a pdp-6 or a KI, and for those instructions I have done, I'm getting almost 600k emulated instructions per second (eips?). But I don't have the PI system working at all, and there are some issues about instruction processing I don't have down yet... Daniel Seagraves is working on a KL emulator, and actually has some code running, it appears (at least he has tried to boot ITS and it has done a little of the boot process). There are some other efforts around the net to produce various -10 emulations... I'm also in the process of getting all the software I do have for the 10, currently on tapes, off to other storage with the help of Tim Shoppa (actually, I'm just supplying him with tapes, and he's doing the work... :-) Most recent mail from him indicates we appear to have almost a complete 7.03 distribution, parts of the 7.03A patchs and working on a 7.04 distribution. But as for 'supporting' this stuff... I was an okay -10 programmer in college... I mostly did -11 stuff. I'll never be anywhere near the level of the -10 gurus who wrote this code... so I would not presume to 'support' it. Isn't XKL doing -10 support? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Nov 19 18:46:48 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available Message-ID: <199911200046.TAA10862@world.std.com> >"Bob Supnik's is quite excellent with better support >from the looks of things" Regarding my previous post... don't get me wrong, I mostly use Bob's emulators, especially since I'm doing my own emulator work using his code as a base... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Nov 19 18:56:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: What's RT-11's device name for TMSCP tapes? Message-ID: <991119195615.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> > What's RT-11's device name for TMSCP tapes? MU0: through MU3:, assuming that they are SYSGENed into existence, you're running a version of RT-11 modern enough to support TMSCP (5.4 or later), and the CSR's and VECTOR's for the MU devices are set up to match your hardware. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Nov 19 19:02:48 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Copyright clearance (was Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991118193240.00aede50@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991119195915.00ad8d20@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:25 PM 11/18/99 -0800, Don Maslin said something like: > > >On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > -- snip -- >> Must be some docs for a government contract prepared outside of the >> contract at Rolm's (or the prime contractor's) expense. Often, anything >> printed under a government contract is not copyrighted. > >I suspect that the distinction is whether the material was developed at >government expense rather than who printed it. After all, it is the >content that is copyrighted, not the manual itself. Yep. That's why I wrote '. . .printed under a gov't contract.' meaning to include the development was also under the contract. The Government Printing Office would have printed such a doc too. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 19 19:32:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available In-Reply-To: <199911200043.TAA09499@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Nov 19, 1999 07:43:29 PM Message-ID: <199911200132.RAA00453@shell1.aracnet.com> > >"Bob Supnik's is quite excellent with better support > >from the looks of things" > > Bob's emulator is quite good, but a drawback is that it doesn't > have MSCP emulation or Ethernet emulation. > > E11 (Ersatz-11) has both. I believe that Viking does as well. I > don't know about Charon... Actually, while the lack of MSCP emulation is irritating, I can live with it. After all I only use the emulator to play around, if I want to actually use a PDP-11, I can turn on a real one. It is nice being able to practice SYSGEN's under the emulator, since they go a lot faster. As such I've used it as a learning tool for my real system. Ethernet would be nice, but what I view as the MAIN problem is his emulators support of consoles. It really stinks only having one console, and I'd just as soon plug a DEC terminal into the PC and use it as the primary interface. I believe that E11 solves both of those problems. Of course it would be nice to mount the RT-11 Hobbyist software CD on a emulator running the Hobbyist RT-11, and without MSCP, I don't believe that is possible. Zane From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Nov 19 20:03:05 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue Message-ID: <199911200203.SAA25047@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Well an 11/60 is going to the scrappers on Monday here in Vancouver. It's at an acquaintance's house, he got it and never got around to getting it set up in his basement. I can't take it due to lack of storage space. Too bad, it's complete, although it's been stored in a garage and not powered up for about 10 years. I am, however, going to save the CPU cards, any other cards, and the backplanes. I will also try to save anything else that can be readily removed from the machine. I did try to find a taker for this beast, as you'll recall from the lists, but unfortunately it's been almost a year and the potential takers have not been able to get around to picking it up. He cannot wait anymore and has arranged for a scrap metal dealer to pick it up this Monday. This is a sad situation, but at least I'll be able to save some of the machine. I'll post to the lists with my results. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From classiccmp at mrynet.com Fri Nov 19 13:21:17 1999 From: classiccmp at mrynet.com (Classic Computer Mailing List) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: Supnik simulator for PDP11 mods (Was RE: PDP-11 emulator available) Message-ID: <199911200321.TAA12031@mrynet.com> The recent interest for simulators/emulators on this list has prompted me to share publically the modifications I've made to the Supnik 2.3d simulator. It is available at: ftp://ftp.mrynet.com/pub/operatingsystems/simulators/sim2.3d+BB1.tar.gz Others who have already seen the modified work from me will have known this file as "sim2.3e.tar.gz." I've changed the distribution file name to prevent confusion with any official distribution that might perhaps follow from Mr. Supnik. There are regular (daily) minor changes to this as I clean it up and verify portability to other platforms. My interest in making modifications were for the same reason I've seen posted about the Supnik emulator: limited serial line support. Below is a summary of my work. Please email me any impressions, suggestions, requests and additional modifications. Kudos to Mr. Supnik for his extremely understandable and workable simulator. Cheers, -skots --------From the top-level README-------- From: Scott G. Taylor September 4, 1999. This is the Supnik Emulator for the Nova, IBM 1401 and DEC PDP 8, 11, and the 18b family PDPs 1, 4, 5, 7, 9 and 15. A directory exists for each of the models where an executable is created. (Except for the PDP 1, all the 18b CPUs are handled by the pdp18b executable coding). Current copyright information is contained in the file COPYRIGHT. The original copyright and documentation are contained in the file 'doc/simh_doc.txt'. Additions to the original Supnik 2.3d distribution: A utility program called `xtapeutil' has been added to the utils/ directory. This program allows you to interactively read and write tape images in the format used by the emulator. You can create tapes from individual files, or from "tape log" mapped images. The generated images have been tested extensively and found to work with all bootable tapes for RSX, RSTS and UNIX operating systems. It is also currently being reworked to aide in transferring real-tape data to simulator-format images, as well as handling labelled real- and simulated-tapes. Summary of modifications: The only modifications to the original source code are in the PDP-11 simulator version. With the exception of reorganisation of code into discrete directories for each simulated processor version, no other code has been modified. The only exception is a small modification to allow adjustment of the CLK timing in simulators which utilise a clock (in common/scp.c). Additionally, a structure of makefiles, compatible with BSD and GNU make, has been added to facilitate simulator builds. The PDP-11 code was modified in the following ways: o Addition of a 4-line DL-11 driver (pdp11_dl.c). o Removal of the stddev KL11 code. The console KL11 functionality has been assumed by the pdp11_dl.c DL11 code. The console line, however, can be reimplemented by defining -DUSEKL in the pdp11 Makefile. o Work-In-Progress on a 4/8-line DZ-11 driver. o A utility program, called 'netline' has been created to allow the simulated DL-11 serial lines to be accessible via TCP TELNET protocol. See README_pdp11 for more details. Building the simulators: From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 19 21:14:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! In-Reply-To: <199911200018.QAA31087@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 19, 99 04:18:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991120/70517795/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Nov 19 21:36:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD's under emulators Message-ID: <991119223658.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> Zane wrote: >Of course it would be nice to mount the RT-11 Hobbyist software CD on a >emulator running the Hobbyist RT-11, and without MSCP, I don't believe that >is possible. The best way to do this is with John Wilson's full E11, where you can directly mount the high (RT-11 disk structure) partitions of the CD-ROM. Of course, this requires the commercial version of E11 for large disk MSCP support, and also requires a regular (non-hobbyist) RT-11 license to run (as the hobbyist RT-11 license is only good on the Supnik emulator.) I think it also requires a SCSI CD-ROM (though I could be wrong and it'll work fine with an IDE CD-ROM.) The next best way to do this is free, and doesn't require commercial anything, just the Supnik emulator running on your system and a copy of RT-11 in compliance with the hobbyist license. If you look in the RT-11 freeware CD at the ISO9660 partition, you'll see that each and every piece of software on the CD is represented as a logical .DSK file. In particular, in the /dsk directory, you'll find 185 logical disks of freeware, split up between the SIGtapes, the DECUS 11-xxx entries, and the "other" stuff. These can be mounted as any sort of volume you like under the Supnik emulator, as long as the emulated device is large enough to hold the contents of the .DSK (i.e. you can use an emulated RL02 to hold any virtual .DSK up to 20480 block.) Then you're home free, and have "direct" access under the emulator to all the contents. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 19 21:50:35 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 20, 1999 03:14:03 AM Message-ID: <199911200350.TAA07450@shell1.aracnet.com> > Well, obviously you have to put boards in adjacent slots if you have to > connecty them by those h851 top connectors (like the 2 CPU boards, and > the core memory set), but otherwise stuff can go where you want to put it. Oh, I thought I could just bend the boards together at the top so I could clip them together. (It's a joke people, put down the pitchforks and axes!) > In the 8/e cabinet, it's possible to configure a system with enough free > slots that you can stick in a card and have enough space to get probes > onto the IC pins without using an extender card. This can be useful if > you don't have said extender. Alas, no 8/e chassis, or extender cards. > Those manuals are _excellent_. Having the prints is useful as well (the > maintenance manuals only give partial schematics), but you can do a lot > with those 3 books. Well, some of the printsets are available on Highgate at least, and thanks to getting Virtual PC with my new Mac won't be to painful to view. In any case this will be a lot different from my experience with my first VAXen and PDP-11's, since I've actually got documentation. It took me the better part of a year after getting my first PDP-11 to get any Doc's for it. In the case of the PDP-8/m, I've had some of these doc's for about a year. Plus there is a lot of hardware info available online. > > That would tell me it's a ground cable :^) Unfortunalty neither end is > > attached to anything, except one wire is attached to ground. One end is a > > 10-pin Cannon Plug, the other end is a 28-pin connector (flat double row > > connector 14 pins per half, never can remember the name for these) with one > > hole plugged to key it. > > Doesn't sound like anything I obviously associate with the PDP8 machines. > Any guesses? I'm not ready to make any guesses till I can take another look at the system. I took a quick look though, and there didn't appear to be anything to plug it into, yet it's got a ground wire securely fastened to the chassis. Maybe the system contained a interface board that is now missing. Zane From cz at bronze.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 19 22:31:57 1999 From: cz at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Christopher R. Zach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue In-Reply-To: Kevin McQuiggin's message of Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:03:05 -0800 (PST) <199911200203.SAA25047@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> Aarrgh! Didn't know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are RARE. And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in the field... (the other was the 11/03 with the WCS11) I've always had a dream of re-coding an 11/60 to support 22bit and supervisor stacks... With a pair of RA60's in place of the RK07's... What a system that would have been. Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast. CZ From foxnhare at jps.net Fri Nov 19 22:31:54 1999 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Classic Hardware Documentation Project References: <199911190802.AAA23550@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <38362435.126742CC@jps.net> > Subject: Re: Classic Hardware Documentation Project > Date:Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:11:09 -0500 > From: "Jason McBrien" > > Maybe not public domain, but I don't think, for example, Commodore (or > whoever owns them now) would mind posting the schematics for the C64, or if > someone were to scan in the owners manual for a TI/99, or a VAX 11/750 > technical manual. Otherwise, if a company goes belly-up, who owns the > copyright then? The disclaimer I'm looking to write acknologes all > copyrights, and would allow the holders to request that I take them down, as > long as they can proove that the copyright is still valid and that they own > it. Between Project 64 and the Funet.Fi Commodore archive I think the 64 is probably one of the best documented 8-bits on the net (and some of the other Commodore 8-bit models as well). I think there have been some issues with the games (like Hasbro who has been re-vamping old Atari titles and threatining some of the games sites), but not much mention from the original Commodore hardware community. :/ Ref: http://project64.c64.org/ http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/ -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 baud Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Nov 19 22:58:06 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue In-Reply-To: <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> from "Christopher R. Zach" at Nov 19, 1999 11:31:57 PM Message-ID: <199911200458.UAA19250@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: Looks like we _may_ have a recipient for the system as a whole. Otherwise the boards and backplane will be saved - good news for the other remaining 11/60s. I'll keep everyone posted. Kevin > Aarrgh! > > Didn't know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are RARE. > And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in the field... > (the other was the 11/03 with the WCS11) > > I've always had a dream of re-coding an 11/60 to support 22bit and supervisor > stacks... With a pair of RA60's in place of the RK07's... > > What a system that would have been. > > Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast. > > CZ > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 19 23:06:13 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: What's RT-11's device name for TMSCP tapes? References: <13500922287.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <38362C45.5016EC16@idirect.com> >Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [This line is here to make listproc stop bugging me] > > The subject says it all. > > (SUBJECT is one of listproc's commands and so it can't be on the first line > of the message. ^_^) The file name for the device driver is MU(X).SYS and the device name is MUn: where n =0,1,2,3. I did a SYSGEN for two TMSCP units. I believe that 4 units are allowed, but the distributed software allows ONLY ONE: namely MU0: Also, MU: is available in RT-11 only with V5.4 and subsequent of RT-11. The actual device can be a TK50, TK70 and any SCSI compatible tape drive, although they may not all work. I believe I tried a SCSI TZK12 (or something close) and I could write ONLY ONE file with BUP, assuming that the INIT was done at the same time and with PIP I was unable to write any files after the "INIT MU0:" command. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 19 22:28:54 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Materialthickness) In-Reply-To: <199911192009.VAA20956@mail2.siemens.de> References: <199911191534.QAA03482@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >> Since we are talking fluid cooling, anybody putting a heatsink on both >> sides of the chip? > >> I would not worry too much about the water side, pressure and flow can work >> wonders there, but would keep the copper plate just thick enough to avoid >> hot spots and cover as much of the chip surface as electrically possible. > >Well, sounds gut at first sight - just three problems: >First you have only a _very_ small free area on the 'other' side - there >are some nasty pins, and somehor it is no-good to touch them. >Ans second, this is hard to do in any standard board - and even >with custom extenders you still have to connect them and the >wire length becomes a problem - adding 10% corespeed and loosing >20% bus speed isn't exactly a gain. What I had in mind was a hole in the motherboard, perhaps two (water in/out), with a small plate making contact directly under the "chip". My guess is that it could be substantly more effective given the internal construction of most chips. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Nov 20 01:51:16 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available Message-ID: <19991120075116.27718.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > However, I'd be interested in hearing peoples results with the originally > mentioned emulator. Bob Supnik's is quite excellent with better support > from the looks of things, but it looks as if the Begemot PDP-11 emulator > will do a couple things it won't (multiple terminals and DEQNA emulation). I helped Bob Supnik debug the RP driver for his PDP-11 emulator (because 2.9BSD didn't used to install) and can say that I'm happy with it. My BSD images are from a *real* 2.9BSD 16MT9 that I got about 15 years ago, and, once the RP driver was fixed up, things worked real smooth. While I have nothing against Ersatz-11, I don't need a PDP-11 emulator bad enough to pay for it. YMMV, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Nov 20 02:16:39 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-10's (was Re: (from usenet) PDP-11 emulator available) Message-ID: <19991120081639.23172.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Megan wrote: > Isn't XKL doing -10 support? Dunno about that, but I do know that at least one employee of XKL has a copy of Zork for the -10 cuz I've run it (I used it to verify my port of the ancient MDL code to Inform... http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/zdungeon/ ...for Z-machines the world over, from the C-64 to the Palm Pilot). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Nov 20 05:58:37 1999 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue In-Reply-To: <199911200458.UAA19250@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi: > > Looks like we _may_ have a recipient for the system as a whole. Otherwise > the boards and backplane will be saved - good news for the other remaining > 11/60s. > > I'll keep everyone posted. Just for eveyrones information; I have a set of 11/760 boards lying around, since I scrapped an 11/60 a few years ago. If anyone wants them, I'll be happy to send them. Might want the shipment payed for, though. This is from Sweden... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Nov 20 08:46:06 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD's under emulators References: <991119223658.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3836B42D.D1951CDB@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Zane wrote: > >Of course it would be nice to mount the RT-11 Hobbyist software CD on a > >emulator running the Hobbyist RT-11, and without MSCP, I don't believe that > >is possible. > The best way to do this is with John Wilson's full E11, where you can > directly mount the high (RT-11 disk structure) partitions of the CD-ROM. > Of course, this requires the commercial version of E11 for large disk > MSCP support, and also requires a regular (non-hobbyist) RT-11 license > to run (as the hobbyist RT-11 license is only good on the Supnik emulator.) > I think it also requires a SCSI CD-ROM (though I could be wrong and > it'll work fine with an IDE CD-ROM.) Jerome Fine replies: I understand that "Full" E11 V2.1A allows an IDE CD-ROM to be: "MOUNT DU0: CDROME:" but I have yet to try and verify that on my PC system under W95. The probable difficulty with the hobby version of E11 for V2.1A is that even if the above command might work, the restriction on having a device of more than 32 MBytes would prevent that from being done in the hobby version. Eventually, John Wilson may place that option in PUTR along with the "/PART=n" option which will allow individual RT-11 partitions to become available which is what the option in PUTR now allows (if I remember correctly): "MOUNT DU0: SCSIn:/PART=p" but of course, the interface must be SCSI, not IDE. If anyone needs this checked out, I have an Iomega SCSI Zip Drive on the PC which I don't use much right now (the old 100 MByte version called the SCSI Insider). And I have just acquired a SCSI CD-ROM drive which I hope to also test by the end of the year. If anyone has an interest in the outcome, let me know. > The next best way to do this is free, and doesn't require commercial > anything, just the Supnik emulator running on your system and a copy > of RT-11 in compliance with the hobbyist license. If you look in the > RT-11 freeware CD at the ISO9660 partition, you'll see that each and > every piece of software on the CD is represented as a logical .DSK > file. In particular, in the /dsk directory, you'll find 185 logical > disks of freeware, split up between the SIGtapes, the DECUS 11-xxx > entries, and the "other" stuff. These can be mounted as any sort of volume you > like under the Supnik emulator, as long as the emulated device is > large enough to hold the contents of the .DSK (i.e. you can use an > emulated RL02 to hold any virtual .DSK up to 20480 block.) Then > you're home free, and have "direct" access under the emulator to all > the contents. Of course, this method can also be done on the E11 hobby version with files up the 65535 blocks since V2.1 of the hobby emulator allows: "MOUNT DU0: E:\DSK\SIGTAPES\11S076.DSK" as an example - or so I have been told - I have not tried it as yet. Likewise, PUTR can also MOUNT the files and splits then apart if they are SIG tapes. Using PUTR is probably entirely legal all the time since the code is only being copied, not "used". It would not be legal to use even the hobby version of E11 with even V5.3 of RT-11 which is a hobby version of RT-11 under the Mentec license that allows ONLY a DEC emulator to be used with V5.3 of RT-11 (usually the Supnik emulator although the Viking emulator for the Alpha - now discontinued I understand - would also qualify). So the E11 hobby version of the emulator could also be used to just split apart very large SIG tapes - I don't know if that would be considered legal to just pull portions of the SIG tape out on the assumption that E11 was being used just as PUTR - not to USE the file, but just to place the portion of the SIG tape into a file that was small enough to be accessed by the Supnik emulator. Perhaps Tim Shoppa or Megan Gentry could comment on the legality of using PUTR to split apart SIG tapes into their smaller DSK files. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 20 08:52:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m !!!! In-Reply-To: <199911200350.TAA07450@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 19, 99 07:50:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991120/7cfb081f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 20 08:55:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue In-Reply-To: <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> from "Christopher R. Zach" at Nov 19, 99 11:31:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991120/582e9ff5/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 20 09:09:40 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD's under emulators Message-ID: <991120100940.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> >Perhaps Tim Shoppa or Megan Gentry could comment on the >legality of using PUTR to split apart SIG tapes into their smaller >DSK files. The RT-11 (and RSX-11 and RSTS/E and ...) SIG tapes, like all DECUS contributed material, had their authors sign pieces of paper stating that the material can be redistributed and repackaged as necessary. So there's no problem with manipulating any of these as you need or desire. John Wilson, at the top of PUTR.DOC, says: PUTR is a copyrighted but freely distributable utility for transferring files between various file systems and various media. He doesn't put any limitations on its use. So I see no difficulties with using PUTR to do anything you want with the PDP-11 freeware archives. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 20 09:48:45 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: New finds and some h-11 help Message-ID: <199911201548.KAA07307@world.std.com> <>Watch out for the PS, the heath design was a switching low voltage design <>and tended to fry itself. < References: <199911192009.VAA20956@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991120110312.00978100@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Mike Ford may have mentioned these words: >What I had in mind was a hole in the motherboard, perhaps two (water >in/out), with a small plate making contact directly under the "chip". My >guess is that it could be substantly more effective given the internal >construction of most chips. Unforch, with the density of the traces & datapaths necessary on newer motherboards, you'll surely ruin the motherboard drilling thru it at the CPU socket area... not good for the operation of the computer, IMHO. ;-) There are some Pentium AT motherboards that have a thru-hole under the chip socket for support... if you found other ways to support the mobo and you are *very* good with small tubing, you might be able to work this to your advantage... but it would be tricky work and I'm not sure how much benefit you'd see from it. Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Nov 20 11:29:05 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 WCS In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 20, 1999 2:55:34 pm" Message-ID: <199911201729.MAA01032@pechter.dyndns.org> > > Didn't know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are RARE. > > And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in the field... > > Wasn't the writeable control store an option for the 11/60 as well? I > seem to remember that the 11/60 I did a couple of minor repairs on didn't > have this board. It was an option. > > Incidentally, if you're short of space, it's just possible to get the > 11/60 CPU backplane into a BA11-K. You need the later (32A) H7441 > regulators, and a second BA11-K for memory/IO, but it will work. > > -tony > The folks at Reuters supposedly used the WCS to make the 11/60 the worlds fastest PDP8. (Wonder if the SIM PDP8 or the PDP8 emulator Doug Jones would be faster on a Pentium class pc). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ss at allegro.com Sat Nov 20 14:05:42 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: References: <199911190204.SAA25866@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <199911202005.MAA05566@opus.allegro.com> Re: > > I just received an IBM 5120, from Germany. The back says 200/210/220 volts > > at 50 Hz. However, opening it up and looking at the power supply reveals ... > Well, I don't know this machine, but I can make some general comments. > > Firstly, it's normally safe to ignore the frequency differnce, at least > to start with. Most PSUs are equally happy with 50Hz or 60Hz. A _few_ ... That sounded good, until I read further: > The mains frequency may be important if AC motors (like disk drive > spindle motors) are run off it, since the speed of induction motors is because there are two 8" floppy drives in the same case. ... > Getting back to the 5120. You mention a lot of wiring options on the PSU. > Are these described anywhere (possibly silk-screened onto the PSU > chassis)? Or how do you know there are various ways to wire it? No descriptions, no documentation. Based on experience with HP equipment of the mid/late 70s and early 80s, I was hoping that the power supply might be somewhat universal. I bought a step up transformer and tried powering up the system yesterday. It wasn't a total failure. The monitor displays every other character as a solid white box, and other every character as varying junk (the junk varies while you watch). If you flip the display control switch to display internal registers (instead of the normal "user" screen), you get the register display apparently uncorrupt, about 95% of the time. So, I'm going to examine the memory connections first (the video display circuity seems to work for the register display, and the user screen varies over time). I can compare some things to a working 5110 here, luckily. thanks, Stan Sieler Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Nov 20 17:45:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Tampa Hamfest Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991120174551.39f7ee54@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just got back from the Tampa hamfest. Besides all the odds and ends, I picked up a HP 9845 claculator, three old HP 2623 terminals, two HP 9885 8" disk drives, a HP 9878 system expansion box and 6 or 7 interfaces for the 9845. Some of the intefaces are brand new and haven't even been unwrapped. Also picked up a HP 7245 Thermal Plotter. A very strange item! It prints on thermal roll paper using a full width printhead but it does excellant printing and plotting. Other items of interest include a HeathKit ET-3100 digital trainer with manual, three IBM computer technical reference manuals (IBM convertable Vol I and II and PS/2 model 30) and a Tektronix 178 linear IC tester. I also found another manual for my Tektronix 4051 computer. This one covers the hardware for the disk drives. Also got some kind of I/O box for the 4051, I don't know exactly what it is yet. Also got four new manuals for a Tektronix digital trainer. I left behind a FREE & operable PDP 11/34 with expansion cabinet. I'm not real interested in DEC stuff and I didn't have room to haul it or to store it. I barely missed getting a very clean HP 45 calculator in the box with charger for $5. But a close friend of mine that's also a big HP fan got it so I'm not too upset. All in all, a pretty good hamfest! Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 20 14:59:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: <199911202005.MAA05566@opus.allegro.com> from "Stan Sieler" at Nov 20, 99 12:05:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2372 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991120/281de4a1/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sat Nov 20 15:57:36 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue Message-ID: <199911202157.QAA25090@world.std.com> >I am, however, going to save the CPU cards, any other cards, and the >backplanes. I will also try to save anything else that can be readily >removed from the machine. If you can take some tools, I would appreciate your getting the front panel from it... >I did try to find a taker for this beast, as you'll recall from the >lists, but unfortunately it's been almost a year and the potential takers >have not been able to get around to picking it up. He cannot wait anymore >and has arranged for a scrap metal dealer to pick it up this Monday. > >This is a sad situation, but at least I'll be able to save some of the >machine. I'll post to the lists with my results. This is sad... very sad... I wish I had space for it. I would take it in a second... Even without space, I would consider it, but there isn't enough time to arrange a rescue... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Nov 20 16:10:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue Message-ID: <199911202210.RAA29721@world.std.com> >Didn't know an 11/60 was going on the trash block; those systems are >RARE. And they were one of two 11's that could actually be microcoded in >the field... (the other was the 11/03 with the WCS11) I've not seen or heard of one since the one I used to use at DEC... I've always wanted to have one to play with the WCS myself... I think I have some development code somewhere for it... If this cannot be saved, it will be a tragedy... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From wpe101 at banet.net Sat Nov 20 16:13:12 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Found in my old DEC stuff, S1022 manual Message-ID: <38371CF8.469F0F24@banet.net> I came across a box of stuff from my old DEC days, and one of the things in it was a xerox output copy of the manual for System 1022 Data Management Software for TOPS-10. Is it, or any info from it, of interest to anyone? Will From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 20 16:13:23 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Re: > > > > I just received an IBM 5120, from Germany. The back says 200/210/220 volts > > > > at 50 Hz. However, opening it up and looking at the power supply reveals > > ... > > > > > Well, I don't know this machine, but I can make some general comments. > > > > > > Firstly, it's normally safe to ignore the frequency differnce, at least > > > to start with. Most PSUs are equally happy with 50Hz or 60Hz. A _few_ > > ... > > > > That sounded good, until I read further: > > > > > The mains frequency may be important if AC motors (like disk drive > > > spindle motors) are run off it, since the speed of induction motors is > > > > because there are two 8" floppy drives in the same case. > > Ah... Most 8" drives do have mains-powered induction motors, so the > frequency does matter. I've seen reference to the odd drive with a 24V DC > spindle motor, but I've never seen an actual drive like that (although I > am sure they exist). If the motor 'looks' like a mains motor, has a large > capactor can hung off it, and seems to have mains wiring going to it, > then it's likely to be a mains motor. The only 24V DC spindle motor that comes to mind at the moment was on the Tandon 848-02 DSDD half-height 8" drive, Tony. - don > Also, most of the time, the drive spindle motors exist in 115V and 230V > forms. A few machines always use 115V drives and run them of an > autotransformer (or the primary of the PSU transformer serving as an > autotransformer), but many of them expect you to have to have the right > drive for your local mains voltage. You might well have had to use an > external step-up transformer anyway.... > > As to the speed problem. I assume the drives are turning, albeit too > fast. Normally there were 2 motor spindle pulleys, one for 50Hz and one > for 60Hz, all other parts being the same. The 60Hz one was about 5/6 the > diameter of the 50Hz one (the speed of these motors is proportional to > frequency). > > In which case you need to make a new spindle pulley. This is a pretty > easy job on a lathe -- if you don't have machine tools, try to find a > friend who does model engineering and who can make you such a part. > > > > I bought a step up transformer and tried powering up the system > > yesterday. It wasn't a total failure. The monitor displays every other > > character as a solid white box, and other every character as varying > > junk (the junk varies while you watch). If you flip the display control > > This is almost certainly another fault, not related to the mains > frequency problem. > > -tony > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 20 16:16:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m Mystery Board -- CCMP 316 ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, now I've had time to go throug the system and I'm starting to pull out boards and see about getting the chassis cleaned up. Turns out the card inventory I'd been given was missing a couple boards, and wasn't in quite the right order. Not that it matters, here is the order, I know the RFI shield should be between the Core Plane and the rest of the system. >M8330 -- Timing board (system clock) >M8310 \_ KK8E CPU control >M8300 / KK8E CPU registers >M847 -- MI8E Hardware Bootstrap Loader. >M848 -- KP8E Power fail and auto-restart. Mystery Board >G104 \ >H220 > MM8E 4K memory (H220) >G227 / >M849 -- shield to isolate memory from CPU >M8650 -- KL8E RS232 or current loop serial interface. Mystery Board >M8320 -- KK8E Bus terminator Here is the info on the Mystery boards (I have two of them): American Sign & Ind Corp CCMP 316 They have two connectors labled as follows: Data Output {24-pin Berg connector} Temp Interface {24-pin Berg connector} The Data Output connector is the one that the mystery cable I mentioned yesterday goes to. The on end of the cable is the 24-pin Berg connector, the other end a 10-pin Cannon Plug. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Nov 20 18:15:01 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue In-Reply-To: <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:31 PM 11/19/99 -0500, CZ wrote: >Aarrgh! > < big snip> > >Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast. I don't know. Where is it? Joe (in Florida) and who just abandoned an 11/34. > >CZ > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 20 16:19:18 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question Message-ID: <991120171918.2020086f@trailing-edge.com> >> Ah... Most 8" drives do have mains-powered induction motors, so the >> frequency does matter. I've seen reference to the odd drive with a 24V DC >> spindle motor, but I've never seen an actual drive like that (although I >> am sure they exist). If the motor 'looks' like a mains motor, has a large >> capactor can hung off it, and seems to have mains wiring going to it, >> then it's likely to be a mains motor. >The only 24V DC spindle motor that comes to mind at the moment was on >the Tandon 848-02 DSDD half-height 8" drive, Tony. In addition to those Tandons, there are also NEC and Mitsubishi HH 8" floppy drives with 24VDC spindle motors. For a challenge, how 'bout the other way around: what 5.25" floppy drives have 120VAC spindles? (If any!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 20 16:43:37 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m Mystery Board -- CCMP 316 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991120143900.020b93b0@mcmanis.com> At 02:16 PM 11/20/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >Here is the info on the Mystery boards (I have two of them): >American Sign > & Ind Corp >CCMP 316 > >They have two connectors labled as follows: >Data Output {24-pin Berg connector} > >Temp Interface {24-pin Berg connector} > >The Data Output connector is the one that the mystery cable I mentioned >yesterday goes to. The on end of the cable is the 24-pin Berg connector, >the other end a 10-pin Cannon Plug. Cool, you've picked up a bank sign! This system was used to display a message in lights up on a pole somewhere and alternate that with the current temperature. If its like the one I've seen there is a 2708 character ROM on the "data" board. The I played with could display a message that is about 65 characters in length on a 32 x 16 set of light bulbs. I checked and I don't have any data any more on the sign, I may still have a paper tape around here somewhere. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 20 17:29:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Cleaning Boards / Contacts Message-ID: OK, I've got most of the boards out of the PDP-8/m, and some of them are rather in need of cleaning. Anybody have any recommendations? I don't remember what the suggestions were the last time this came up, I just remember that my method (Pink Pearl Eraser) was recommended not to use :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 20 17:33:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m Mystery Board -- CCMP 316 ? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120143900.020b93b0@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: >Cool, you've picked up a bank sign! This system was used to display a >message in lights up on a pole somewhere and alternate that with the >current temperature. If its like the one I've seen there is a 2708 >character ROM on the "data" board. The I played with could display a >message that is about 65 characters in length on a 32 x 16 set of light >bulbs. I checked and I don't have any data any more on the sign, I may >still have a paper tape around here somewhere. > >--Chuck Interesting. Both boards are identical as far as I can tell, both have the connectors, no sign of a "Data" board, and no 2708's in sight. What do you plug into the "Temp Interface"? I'm guessing the A/D circuitry would be part of the temperature probes, which I didn't get :^( Guess for the time being at least I can leave these out and have a couple more free slots. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 20 17:35:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> >At 11:31 PM 11/19/99 -0500, CZ wrote: >>Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast. > > I don't know. Where is it? > > Joe (in Florida) and who just abandoned an 11/34. Vancouver BC. Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 20 17:12:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 20, 99 02:13:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1748 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991120/302d654f/attachment.ksh From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Nov 20 18:32:16 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Cleaning Boards / Contacts References: Message-ID: <38373D90.3DD379AD@halcyon.com> Try Cramolin Red (now called DeoxIT) for old contacts and Cramolin Blue (now called PreservIT) for new contacts or ones cleaned with Red. You can get Cramolin from CAIG Laboratories in Escondido, CA. Look at http://www.caig.com. You can order a free sample and/or a sample kit. Dave "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > OK, I've got most of the boards out of the PDP-8/m, and some of them are > rather in need of cleaning. Anybody have any recommendations? I don't > remember what the suggestions were the last time this came up, I just > remember that my method (Pink Pearl Eraser) was recommended not to use :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 20 18:46:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Cleaning Boards / Contacts Message-ID: <199911210046.TAA26460@world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991120222537.0b6f79a2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:35 PM 11/20/99 -0800, you wrote: >>At 11:31 PM 11/19/99 -0500, CZ wrote: >>>Can anyone save this thing? I'm on the wrong coast. >> >> I don't know. Where is it? >> >> Joe (in Florida) and who just abandoned an 11/34. > >Vancouver BC. I can't help with that one! Wrong coast, wrong country! > >Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^) > > Zane Zane, Bite your tongue! Joe From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 20 22:18:29 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Ah... Most 8" drives do have mains-powered induction motors, so the > > > frequency does matter. I've seen reference to the odd drive with a 24V DC > > > spindle motor, but I've never seen an actual drive like that (although I > > > am sure they exist). If the motor 'looks' like a mains motor, has a large > > > capactor can hung off it, and seems to have mains wiring going to it, > > > then it's likely to be a mains motor. > > > > The only 24V DC spindle motor that comes to mind at the moment was on > > the Tandon 848-02 DSDD half-height 8" drive, Tony. I never much cared for those drives, Tony. IIRC, there was no way to remotely unload the heads from the media. The best that you could do was to power down the spindle motor. Of course, the problem there was the finite time for the disk to come up to speed when power was reapplied. > I seem to remember it was an option on a drive made by a company called > 'Elcomatic'. I have a couple of the drives (with 240V mains motors) on my > PC/XT, and I have the service manual _somewhere (but don't ask me to find > it :-)). > > These are full-height drives, same form factor as a SA800 or whatever. > One other neat feature is that as well as the track0 sensor, there's > another slotted optoswitch that operates on track 43 and greater. So > these drives don't need the TG43 signal from the controller, which is > handy if you're linking them to a PC. > > However, IBM (and a few other companies) made their own drives, so it's > quite possible they did something strange [1]. I could well believe that > they used drives with 24V motors, for example. I think that a definitive response to Tim's quiz will be quite interesting. I do not know of any, personally, but... - don > [1] Although not as strange as a Radiogram I have the service sheet for. > This thing would run off AC or DC mains, and there were 3 valves that > were only used on DC mains. The radio chassis was a conventional > 'universal' set (series-string heaters, rectify the mains to get the > anode supply). You guessed it, the other 3 valves (a couple of 50L6's and > something that would oscillate) formed a 50Hz PSU for the turntable motor. > > -tony > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Nov 20 22:22:08 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991120202208.068408b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:35 PM 11/20/1999 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^) Don't let either of my HP1000F's hear you say that... B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 20 22:33:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory Message-ID: Well, with the aid of the "PDP-8/e Simulator" for the Mac, I figured out how to use the front panel, and execute the "Initial Operating Check". Load it into the real PDP-8/m, and start it. Wait a minute, that's not what it's supposed to be doing... After a bunch of investigating, and going back to the "PDP-8/e Simulator" to figure out how to display the contents of memory, I discover that there is nothing in memory :^( Based on the fact I can see what I'm trying to enter when I've got the switch set to 'MD' and hit Deposit, it sounds to me, suspiciously like I've got a bad 4K Core set. Anyone have any suggestions on something to check? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 20 23:20:57 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991120211529.00a87490@mcmanis.com> Try this: Set all switches to 0, Halt is down, key is set to power ON, rotary switch to MD. Press CLEAR Press Extd Addr Load Set the switches to 200 octal Press Addr Load. Now flip the switches back to 0 press Deposit set the switches to 1 press deposit set the switches to 2 press deposit ... repeat until you get to 10 octal... Now set the switches to 0200 octal press ADDR LOAD press EXAMINE Data LEDs should show 0 press EXAMINE Data LEDs should show 1 If they do, you are reading back memory and writing it. If they don't you have a problem. The first thing to check is that all the top connectors are in fact on. There should be no "edge" connectors visibla at the top. The next thing to check is the first board in the MEMORY stack has three solder jumpers in the lower right hand corner. They should _all_ be soldered in. (that's three 0's or page 0) The next thing you should check is that the back plane does _not_ have gunk in it. This is a very common fault on old 8's. --Chuck At 08:33 PM 11/20/99 -0800, you wrote: >Well, with the aid of the "PDP-8/e Simulator" for the Mac, I figured out >how to use the front panel, and execute the "Initial Operating Check". >Load it into the real PDP-8/m, and start it. Wait a minute, that's not >what it's supposed to be doing... > >After a bunch of investigating, and going back to the "PDP-8/e Simulator" >to figure out how to display the contents of memory, I discover that there >is nothing in memory :^( > >Based on the fact I can see what I'm trying to enter when I've got the >switch set to 'MD' and hit Deposit, it sounds to me, suspiciously like I've >got a bad 4K Core set. > >Anyone have any suggestions on something to check? > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From leucoplast at seanet.com Sat Nov 20 23:46:01 1999 From: leucoplast at seanet.com (Ernest Simpson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 Message-ID: <38378719.530B8E54@seanet.com> I'm also having the same problem on my 2000. I have a feeling that it's the floppy controller chip(s) but I'm not sure yet. At first I thought it was a bad power connector but they all check out OK. Then I replaced the FDs with no change. I even replaced the motherboard with a spare that I had but all that ever comes up is the "256k memory" line, and that's all. Still, I'm only making guess' here. I should say that I aquired my two machines, one with a hard drive, for free but they were not tested. I had to have a video cable made before I could see what was going on with the system, so I'm not entirely sure of what is supposed to happen on bootup. I had the same problem with a Tandy HX a while back, and that turned out to be a bad memory chip that was locking up the system when it ran it's memory test. I've been tinkering with my 2000 off and on as I get new solution ideas but so far, I'm stuck too. From jdliles at earthlink.net Sun Nov 21 00:03:55 1999 From: jdliles at earthlink.net (Maureen O'Danu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Samuel Caldwell's book: Switching Circuits and Logical Design Message-ID: <38378B4A.945D875D@earthlink.net> I am Samuel Caldwell's grand-daughter and would be very interested in your copy of his book. Every copy I have ever found has been well used and is in poor condition. -- Jennifer Dowling Liles From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 21 00:45:11 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! Message-ID: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: It is with pleasure that I report that the pdp-11/60 in Vancouver has been rescued! Eric Smith flew up from San Jose today, and we rescued the beast, moving it to a temporary storage locker until Eric can re-attend and drive it back down south. It was a _very_ long day, especially for Eric, what with flying etc. We were fortunate that the person with the machine, Dallas Hinton, lives next to a lumberyard. He has good relations with the staff, and was able to borrow a forklift (and operator) from them. This made loading the behemoth (CPU unit about 600 lbs) quite easy. Also picked up were two RK06 drives, a Dilog front-loading high density tape drive, VT52, DECwriter II and III, boxes and boxes of docs, software, and disk packs. The only rental truck available on 1 day notice was a 5 ton monster from Ryder. The gear fit easily in the back. We roped it in as best as possible, but alas during the 7 mile drive between Dallas' and the storage locker place, the CPU unit broke its ropes, and despite being restrained by boxes of docs and the terminals, rolled around and dented the back of the tape drive unit. No real damage was done, and the load arrived intact. The next challenge was getting the CPU cabinet and other units down the ramp at the back of the truck - no liftgate available, and no forklift at the mom-n-pop self storage. So Eric and I gritted our teeth and with much physical effort managed to roll the units down the ramp _without_ having them either collapse the ramp or fall off to either side. The other stuff was moved much more easily, and all of it (save some docs which Eric wanted to get home for review) is now safely stored. The machine is in great shape, has all panels, doors. We didn't have a camera available, due to the short notice. I'll try to take some photos once Eric comes back to drive the machine down to San Jose. A liftgate equipped truck will be mandatory - we'd never be able to get the machine back up the ramp by pushing/pulling. Hmmm a block and tackle or winch might work too... Thanks to Dallas Hinton, and the folks on the list who wrote in support of saving this old machine. Great thanks to Eric for making the supreme short notice effort to come up and get the 11/60! The scrap dealer is still coming to Dallas' place on Monday, but now it'll only be for some broken old Wang terminals (not worth saving, you had to see them, trust me!). That's it from Vancouver, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From truthanl at oclc.org Sun Nov 21 00:50:05 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Old plasma display Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EADFD@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> I have data sheets on Sharp ( electronics corporation ) LCD units circa 1988. They Show a LM64015T Display which was also 640 X 400. Its logic was 5.0 V (MAX 6 V) and the Supply (LCD) drive is Typical -21V (Min- 32V. Max -14V) It was driven with a Yamaha V6366 display controller. There is also a TDK CXA-1301 Inverter spec'd which provides CCFT backlight voltage ( Typical 1000 Vrms @ 400hz) The Sharp LM64015T display is a 12 pin device, Pin 1 labelled S for Scan Start up high Pin 2 CP1 (clock pulse 1) Input Data latch (High to low) Pin 3 CP2 Data Input Clock Signal ( High to low) Pin 4 open Pin 5 NC Pin 6 Power supply for Logic Pin 7 Gnd potential Pin 8 Power for LCD Drive with pins 9-12 being display Data, D0 - D4 respectively - (High on)(Low off) This gives an Idea of typical voltages and interfaces of the era. This may not apply to the Specific Matsushita device you asked about. It points out that there are often Display Controllers Like Yamaha V6366 and High Voltage inverters like TDK CXA -1301 ( 100V- 1000V) for backlighting. Sincerely Larry Truthan > -----Original Message----- > From: Stefan Boss [SMTP:stefan.boss@gmx.net] > Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 11:56 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Old plasma display > > Hello > I have an old Matsushita plasma displays (from a Compaq PC I think). > Do you have any information about this (or a similar) display... any > datasheets about data communication or the power connector pins??? > > The display has the numbers > MD400F640PD5 > 7.0.13 C:60963 > > I'm very glad if you could help me... > > yours sincerely, Stefan > > > PS: I'm a student from Switzerland and I might be interessted to write a > assembler-program with my microcontroller system (MC68HC11G5) for the > display. > > Reference: > http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/1998-08/msg01244.html > > > -- > Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Nov 21 00:58:09 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Cleaning Boards / Contacts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991120225809.00942e00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:29 20-11-1999 -0800, you wrote: >OK, I've got most of the boards out of the PDP-8/m, and some of them are >rather in need of cleaning. Anybody have any recommendations? I don't >remember what the suggestions were the last time this came up, I just >remember that my method (Pink Pearl Eraser) was recommended not to use :^) Well, lessee here... Some years ago, Miller-Stephenson turned out some very nice prepackaged pads made specifically for cleaning gold edge fingers. Motorola bought them up by the gross. I believe they were called 'GoldGuard' wipes, and I found them to be exceptionally good at their task. They not only clean gold contacts, they also leave behind a protective transparent film (you'll never see it unless you look through a microscope) that helps to prevent corrosion. They should still be available from large electronics supply places, or dealers like Jensen Tools or Specialized Products. Heck, you can probably order them from Motorola if you really want to... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 21 01:54:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120211529.00a87490@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: >If they do, you are reading back memory and writing it. If they don't you >have a problem. They don't :^( >The first thing to check is that all the top connectors are in fact on. >There should be no "edge" connectors visibla at the top. Done. >The next thing to check is the first board in the MEMORY stack has three >solder jumpers in the lower right hand corner. They should _all_ be >soldered in. (that's three 0's or page 0) Dang, I thought you had it for a minute, the wires aren't where you'd expect them, but they are in fact in place >The next thing you should check is that the back plane does _not_ have gunk >in it. This is a very common fault on old 8's. I'm afriad this was the first thing I checked out, included removing the pine needle. Earlier to day, I stripped the system down, cleaned it up, and put it back together following the maintenance manual on how it should go together. Been looking through the maintenance manual, and it looks like among the things I need to do tomorrow to check this out is to test voltages on both the G104 and G227 boards. This has me wondering, does it matter if the order is G104/H220/G227, or can you order it like G227/H220/G104 for testing so you can take readings on the G227 board? Also, just looked at Highgate, I take it the printset for a 4K Core Stack isn't available online anywhere? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 21 02:00:39 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! Message-ID: <199911210800.DAA13931@world.std.com> >It is with pleasure that I report that the pdp-11/60 in Vancouver has >been rescued! Great news... kudos to all involved... score one for our side... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Nov 21 02:04:36 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Gang: > > It is with pleasure that I report that the pdp-11/60 in Vancouver > has been rescued! > > Eric Smith flew up from San Jose today, and we rescued the beast, moving > it to a temporary storage locker until Eric can re-attend and drive it > back down south. [snip] This, to me, is what the hobby of preserving our old computers is all about... no e-bay, no bickering over whose Altair is worth more to the speculators, just two people spending a lot of money and time on the spur (literally!) of the moment to save another rare old machine from Scrap. Bravo, Eric!! Thanks, Kevin! Too damn K3WL...! Cheers John From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 21 03:08:49 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! Message-ID: <012601bf3400$05fa5740$5a72e2d1@default> Did you ever pick up the Univac? -----Original Message----- From: Owen Robertson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:06 PM Subject: New Collector in Need of Help! I am kind of new to the collecting game. I am in need of some help. I need someone to tell me where I can find older and larger computers. I have a lot of micros, but now I am looking for bigger game. I have decided to focus my collection on older mainframes and minicomputers. Can anyone point me to sources? I found a local business that has older and larger computers, but the owner and I didn't hit it off. It's really a shame. He had some great stuff. While I was there I had to watch the workers scrap what looked like a very old classic control panel. Also, someone recently offered me a UNIVAC System 80. Anyone know anything about it? Is it something worth having in a collection? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/b176abc5/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Nov 21 05:33:22 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: DataIO 212 tips? In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991120211529.00a87490@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: I picked up a DATAIO 212 today, and apparently DataIO has no online support for "obsolete" hardware. Anybody have some tips on basic operation? (I know I need to ID the "module" that came with it, but ...) From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Nov 21 05:54:52 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:38 2005 Subject: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive Message-ID: <004001bf3417$38cb4140$4e3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I've found a box with 2 x 8" floppy drives. . . . external to some unknown computer. The box is a Panasonic JB3038P and inside are 2 X JA751 drives. The drive connectors and the cable coming out of the box are all 50 pin, exactly like an internal SCSI cable. Unfortunately it isn't recognised by a SCSI controller, at least not without fiddling with parity and stuff like that. Does anyone know what this might have been for? SCSI 8" floppy drives would have been great cos I don't think I'm ever going to find a compaticard ! Hans From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Nov 21 06:38:22 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Want To Buy HP 3000/928 W/100 User License!!!! In-Reply-To: <19991121122216.AAA4885@laxmls01.socal.rr.com@sc-24-30-165-54.socal.rr.com References: <19991112094324.07490.00000376@ng-fg1.aol.com> Message-ID: I saw this in a newsgroup and I am just passing it on. >In article <19991112094324.07490.00000376@ng-fg1.aol.com>, >rborliniwm@aol.com (RBorlinIWM) wrote: > >> Want To Buy HP 3000/928 W/100 User License!!!! >> >> Bob Borlin >> 440-449-8006 From truthanl at oclc.org Sun Nov 21 08:03:51 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: FW: MicroVax I wont boot Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EAE00@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> > Subject: MicroVax I wont boot > > Here is the Capture File out Hyperterminal: > > > MICROVERIFY STARTED > > MICROVERIFY PASSED > > 00000000 03 > ATTEMPTING RESTART > > RESTART FAILED > ATTEMPTING BOOTSTRAP > > %BOOT-F-ERROR, None of the bootable devices contain a program image > 000008B3 02 > > It leaves me with a >>> (prompt) > that seems to accept one character commands > Is htere a way to send it a file that will direct it to Disk or Diskette? > > Several years have passed since I 've had this thing running and I believe > I used to be able to list Devices. > > What Have I forgotten? Is there a generic default boot device target? Or > do I need to specify one? > > Any reference Docs online to boot uVAX I? > > Larry Truthan > truthanl@oclc.org > > From a2k at one.net Sun Nov 21 08:37:44 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: request (fwd) Message-ID: This fellow emailed me looking for some DEC parts.. maybe someone on the list will be able to help him out. Kevin ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 21:40:35 -0500 From: jmccance@muskingum.edu To: A2K@ONE.NET Subject: request hi kevin got your name from the classic computer rescue list. hopefully you'll have some things that are surplus to you that you would be willing to sell. so here is my wish list; Dl11-E or DL11-W serial cards, 3 VS2000 12-meg mem, 4 VS40X 8-plane card for '2000 1 M8267 fp11-a /34a fpp 1 M8268 kk11-a /34a cache 1 ( my /34 has the M8265 and M8266 cpu) M8061 rlv12 rl-01/02 controller 1 M8017 dlve1 serial card 3 a unibus card that talks mscp on one side and st412/506 on the other. or, a unibus card that talks mscp on one side and scsi on the other. yea i know, i want the moon;-} also need the pin-out info for a DR-11C (M7860) and a AR-11 (M7809), or tell me where on the net this can be found. if you have any of this available for sale, please quote prices, either per item or bundled as a lot and i'll see what can be afforded. thank you for your consideration of this request. reguards john john w mccance cambridge oh 43725 740 439 0182 home jmccance@muskingum.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------- | i am in no way affiliated with Muskingum College. | | The College is a community oriented school and the nice folks | | at the computer center make available login accounts for | | people in the community to have some access to the internet. | | Many Thanks to them. | |__________________________________________________________________| From lwalker at interlog.com Sun Nov 21 09:39:30 1999 From: lwalker at interlog.com (lwalker@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Racks ? In-Reply-To: References: <19991028053641.12143.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199911211439.JAA06298@smtp.interlog.com> I've been offered 2 castored racks by the owner of the place I am using temporarily for storage, which were abandoned by a previous occupant. They are about 5' high by 24'' wide with lockable front and rear doors. One of the rear doors had been forced open and I only got a quick glance inside. I made out a micropolis(IIRC) mfr. label on one module and a large "PDP 4800" stencil on another one which looked like a PSU. There were about 20 DB25 cables connected to one of the modules. I'm a complete novice when it comes to mini's, and due to storage space limitations plus that I would also have to remove them when I vacate my locker I've been reluctant to take them. Anyone have any idea on what they might be ? I realize this is not much info and will be looking at them again when I have a flashlight and a means of forcing open a front door panel. ciao larry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 07:00:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <004001bf3417$38cb4140$4e3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> from "Olminkhof" at Nov 21, 99 10:54:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/6eb3a051/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 07:03:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 20, 99 11:54:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/27805ced/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 06:49:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 power question In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 20, 99 08:18:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/a2f32494/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 06:57:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Nov 20, 99 10:45:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 658 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/b3fcaebe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 06:55:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120211529.00a87490@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 20, 99 09:20:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1084 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/53f83bab/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 21 09:08:00 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive Message-ID: <991121100800.202008dd@trailing-edge.com> >> I've found a box with 2 x 8" floppy drives. . . . external to some unknown >> computer. >> >> The box is a Panasonic JB3038P and inside are 2 X JA751 drives. >> The drive connectors and the cable coming out of the box are all 50 pin, >> exactly like an internal SCSI cable. Unfortunately it isn't recognised by a >> SCSI controller, at least not without fiddling with parity and stuff like >> that. >Why on earth do you think it would be SCSI? The standard 8" floppy drive >interface (a de-facto standard defined by the SA800) is a 50 way ribbon >cable. I'd bet that's what you have. It *could* be SCSI, assuming a SCSI <-> SA800 controller is in the box with the floppy drives. These are found not too uncommonly on some Apollo and other early workstations. The ones that I've had to deal with were actually SASI. But, yes, 99% chance that it's just the SA800 interface cable. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 21 11:05:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991120202208.068408b0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991121110555.2a671a72@mailhost.intellistar.net> >At 03:35 PM 11/20/1999 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^) > I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next time I go to Portland! Joe From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Nov 21 09:33:41 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Gang: > > It is with pleasure that I report that the pdp-11/60 in Vancouver has been > rescued! > > Eric Smith flew up from San Jose today, and we rescued the beast, moving > it to a temporary storage locker until Eric can re-attend and drive it > back down south. > Hurrah!!!!! From west at tseinc.com Sun Nov 21 09:36:33 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue References: <199911200431.XAA05926@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000b01bf3436$312d6480$0101a8c0@jay> Zane wrote... > Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^) I must agree with Zane. HP's aren't cool at all. I wouldn't recommend anyone collect them. They're just not interesting. I agree with Zane so much, that I would be willing to help out those who have gone astray and obtained any HP 21MX M/E/F or 2100 items. I will take them away so they can't be an influence on you, and help re-educated you so that you only seek non-HP items for your collection. My patented process includes hours of forcing you to watch alternating light patterns of light brown/dark brown and light purple/dark purple. My hope is that all who have fallen down into admiring HP gear will soon get to the point where anytime they see any HP gear they'll call me to get it out of their sight before they become tempted by Demon HP. Don't worry HP'ers, I'm here to save your soul - Really! Jay West HP Evangelist From west at tseinc.com Sun Nov 21 09:44:33 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) References: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19991121110555.2a671a72@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002d01bf3437$4f1cdb00$0101a8c0@jay> Joe wrote... > I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next time I go to Portland! Nah, get him a 21MX E or F series. That'll hook him! I dearly love my PDP-8E, but I truely believe the architecture on the HP 21MX line to be far more elegant. Not necessarily superior, but certainly more elegant. Just my own biased opinion.... Jay West From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 21 09:58:56 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: new hamfest additions Message-ID: <0.7cf8b3f4.256970c0@aol.com> pretty good hamfest in benson, nc probably because the greensboro one next month is cancelled. picked up 2 tandy model 100s and 1 kyotronic 85 (same thing) for $15, a mac adb mouse, XGA2 card still in box and other pc junk. unfortunately, had to pass on a coco2 with disk drive and a really clean PS/2 77. it breaks my heart, but you really cant save everything... DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Nov 21 10:34:10 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory Message-ID: <19991121163410.2327.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Been looking through the maintenance manual, and it looks like among the > > things I need to do tomorrow to check this out is to test voltages on both > > the G104 and G227 boards. This has me wondering, does it matter if the > > order is G104/H220/G227, or can you order it like G227/H220/G104 for > > testing so you can take readings on the G227 board? > > AFAIK, you must put the core stack in the middle (so the top connectors > all fit), but you can have the outer boards either way round. All Omnibus > slots are equivalent, and the top connectors are symmetrical as well. One point about "symmetrical"... you _do_ have the core plane in right-side up, don't you? IIRC, the OMNIBUS side of the core stack is the one with only grounds on it; the connectors with all the signals going to and fro is for the top. I'm not saying you did it, but it'd be easy to reinstall the stack with the top side down. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sun Nov 21 10:49:02 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <002d01bf3437$4f1cdb00$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing. Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems. Aaron On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Jay West wrote: > Joe wrote... > > I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next time I go to Portland! > > Nah, get him a 21MX E or F series. That'll hook him! > > I dearly love my PDP-8E, but I truely believe the architecture on the HP > 21MX line to be far more elegant. Not necessarily superior, but certainly > more elegant. Just my own biased opinion.... > > Jay West > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 10:54:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Nov 21, 99 08:49:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/7eb09398/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 21 14:00:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991121140005.4f670576@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:54 PM 11/21/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> >> I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing. >> Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided >> attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering >> brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems. > >Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically >and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I >love working on such machines. > >Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their >support at the moment is a total joke. Very true but there are still lots of fine old HPs out there that need to be rescued! I have little interest in anything newer than the HP 71. I even gave away my HP 48. Don't even ask about the HP 49! Joe From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Nov 21 12:17:02 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 21, 1999 04:54:25 pm" Message-ID: <19991121181705Z433951-22953+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > > > I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing. > > Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided > > attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering > > brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems. > > Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically > and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I > love working on such machines. > > Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their > support at the moment is a total joke. > I have to at least partially disagree with you on this. Their consummer PCs may be of mixed quality, but their workstations are still the best you can get. We run a mixed shop with Sun, SGI, HP, IBM workstations and some old DEC alphas. The HPs are by far the most reliable. We have a high end SGI (a multi-pipe IR) that has a hardware/software problem in it that remains unfixed even though the problem was reported over a year ago. This same problem exists in several other similarly configured machines, so we aren't the only ones complaining. Last week we got a 3 pipe HP J5000. Worked right out of the box, completely as advertized. We are one of the first off-site groups with this configuration and its runs perfectly. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 21 12:24:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) Message-ID: <000e01bf344d$99c64fe0$0400c0a8@winbook> I have to agree, though they never could build a 'scope that would trigger they way you'd have liked . . . Their downfall, by the way, seems to have coincided with their move into computers. For a time this seemed OK. Their notion of "user-friendliness" was looking like a pretty good one in their logic analyzers too, but I don't remember an HP computer product, particularly once they absorbed APOLLO, for which any installation/upgrade, no matter how minor didn't involve 3 layers of system downtime, on the order of 3 days per workstation, i.e. if you had one server and three stations, you had 3 instances of 9 days of downtime, say, to get the updated simulator libraries realigned, though they were supposed to work "out of the box" but didn't. We had more servers and more stations, so there were more instances of longer downtime. Though I did object to the choice of HP, I was still mightily embarassed by the fact that after having HP CAD/CAE systems for a year, they still couldn't be relied upon to do what any PC could do. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) >> >> I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing. >> Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided >> attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering >> brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems. > >Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically >and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I >love working on such machines. > >Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their >support at the moment is a total joke. > >-tony > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Nov 21 12:28:23 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Supermac Technology Enhance card for Mac 128K In-Reply-To: <004601bf3052$f110ba00$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: >I just came into ownership (well, I've have it a couple of days) of a >Supermac Technology Enhance card that was an internal upgrade for a Mac128K. Sounds like a tough nut to crack, and these old accelerator played and important part of the early mac history. I have a pair of mac SE with Levco accelerators, and haven't had much luck finding drivers or much information, EXCEPT that they specifically were the fastest mac for nearly a year. ;( Try the mac driver museum, and make sure to ask on some of the "general" vintage mac support areas. http://members.xoom.com/macdrivers/accel.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Nov 21 12:44:54 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: new hamfest additions In-Reply-To: <0.7cf8b3f4.256970c0@aol.com> Message-ID: >pretty good hamfest in benson, nc probably because the greensboro one next >month is cancelled. picked up 2 tandy model 100s and 1 kyotronic 85 (same >thing) for $15, a mac adb mouse, XGA2 card still in box and other pc junk. >unfortunately, had to pass on a coco2 with disk drive and a really clean PS/2 >77. it breaks my heart, but you really cant save everything... What are some interesting PS/2 models? And no funny business like the guy that joked about little all in one units being nice (I had three before I found out it was funnY). I found the AC adapter for my 5140 yesterday, and earlier this week picked up a nice L40. Two shelves of 9595's seem plenty, although I may scrap a pallet of them setting at a salvage place for more parts. I have been trying to locate good stuff out of said pallets for the last week, but three model 58's look like the top of the heap unless something better is in the still wrapped tight pallet of servers. Pomona hamfest was decidedly smaller due to early morning rain, even though it stayed dry the rest of the day (too many guys come in open bed trucks). Hopefully I hooked Arron on coming once in awhile, not too much of a drive was it? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 21 12:57:21 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <000e01bf344d$99c64fe0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 21, 1999 11:24: 7 am" Message-ID: <199911211857.NAA03400@pechter.dyndns.org> > I have to agree, though they never could build a 'scope that would trigger > they way you'd have liked . . . > > Their downfall, by the way, seems to have coincided with their move into > computers. For a time this seemed OK. Their notion of "user-friendliness" > was looking like a pretty good one in their logic analyzers too, but I don't > remember an HP computer product, particularly once they absorbed APOLLO, for > which any installation/upgrade, no matter how minor didn't involve 3 layers > of system downtime, on the order of 3 days per workstation, i.e. if you had > one server and three stations, you had 3 instances of 9 days of downtime, > say, to get the updated simulator libraries realigned, though they were > supposed to work "out of the box" but didn't. We had more servers and more > stations, so there were more instances of longer downtime. > Dick Gee, I've been away from HP-UX pretty much for a couple of years (spending time with FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, SunOS, and AIX and I've found AIX the easiest to work with followed by FreeBSD, SunOS, Solaris and Linux. I'd rate HP-UX ahead of SunOS, with the exception of the large number of patches they rolled out evey month. Next month another set of patches to the patches to fix the stuff they never got right. Their support center for HP printers is excellent, however, the Unix folks and hardware folks (this goes for Sun as well) range from clueless to very good -- but you have to go through layers of clueless to get escalated to someone clued. Their contracted folks (and Sun's Wang -ex Honewell-Bull folks) couldn't find their er-processors with a roadmap and are really as clueless as CompUSA PC techs. ...And you folks make fun of old DEC Field Service guys 8-( The level of cluelessness in service has gone up exponentially. Chip chasers made fun of us board swappers, but now these folks get away with parts swapping with no clue as to how the machine works. On PC's with no parity on the busses or memory or cache you can have unexplained failures... but on workstations I expect better diags and design. Gimme a Vax or PDP11 with errorlog over what's out there now. (Even SysV's errorlog was an improvement over Solaris...) The AIX stuff is the best I've seen out there since VAX/VMS. IBM understands systems. bill From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sun Nov 21 12:57:41 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <19991121181705Z433951-22953+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Mark Green wrote: > > > > > > I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing. > > > Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided > > > attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering > > > brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems. > > > > Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically > > and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I > > love working on such machines. > > > > Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their > > support at the moment is a total joke. Actually, I must be a rare exception to the rule. We use a gaggle of HP Vectra PII machines at work, and they are fantastic. We use two in mission-critical roles, a file server and a fax server, both running NT, that continuously boast uptimes of months before they're taken down for regular maintenance. And the snap-lock type cases are fantastic to work on too, since you don't even have to disconnect them from the peripherals to do routine maintenance like HD replacements or ram upgrades. As far as service, we use a dozen or so Omnibooks in the organization and have had nothing but excellent support and service for them. Since the only HP mini stuff I use is my *ancient* collection, I can't vouch for enterprise/workstation support...but the laptop/desktop PC support has been outstanding. That all said, nothing I've come across today comes close to displaying the kind of inventiveness and imagination that the older systems have... Aaron From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sun Nov 21 13:13:35 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: More free (not quite classic) stuff... Message-ID: Sorry to keep deluging the list with modernish freebies, but I figured there might be a few list people interested... Does anyone want a 486SX/33 base in a small box? It's actually the bottom half of an HP Scanjet 4si (so, same form factor as an HP IIP scanner). It's got 2 ISA/1 VLB slots...just perfect for a nice, small LRP router... (I'm using an identical one for that at home) Aaron From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 21 13:33:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <19991121181705Z433951-22953+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: from Tony Duell at "Nov 21, 1999 04:54:25 pm" Message-ID: >I have to at least partially disagree with you on this. Their >consummer PCs may be of mixed quality, but their workstations are >still the best you can get. We run a mixed shop with Sun, SGI, HP, >IBM workstations and some old DEC alphas. The HPs are by far the >most reliable. We have a high end SGI (a multi-pipe IR) that has The HP's are the most reliable?!?!?! Guess you don't have many do you? I'm so thankful that I don't have to deal with the HP's at work it isn't funny! HP always seems to have people on site for repairs. I worked with HP Workstations several years ago, and really liked them. Although I found their habit of totally changing the way devices are handled in HP-UX between different versions, more than just a little irritating! All the Sun's I've had to deal with are very reliable, and the IBM's are pretty good two, but considering the vintage of the one on my desk at work, I can't say much either way on IBM's since I've not worked on a modern system (it was old 3 years ago when I started working there, but I won't give it up becuase it would be replaced with an NT box). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 21 13:40:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991121110555.2a671a72@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19991120202208.068408b0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: >>At 03:35 PM 11/20/1999 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> >>>Oh, and get with the program, PDP's are cool, HP's aren't :^) >> > I think I'll drop a 9845 on Zane the next time I go to Portland! > > Joe Well, Jim did remind me about the HP1000F's.... Then there are the HP IPC's... OK, they might have had one or two cool computers :^) But their naming conventions are even worse than DEC's! So what the &&&& is a 9845? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 21 13:52:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 20, 99 11:54:33 pm Message-ID: >[PDP8/m with core problems] > >> The first thing to check is that all the top connectors are in fact on. >> There should be no "edge" connectors visibla at the top. > >In the core memory set, sure (you need 4 top connectors here -- 2 to link >to the core stack to each of the other 2 boards). But there will be open That was kind of obvious, and thanks to a pretty good picture in the maintenance manual I was able to verify how I was supposed to have connector blocks on stuff in the system. Thankfully I had all of them. >edge connectors on the top of the CPU set -- you can insert the EAE card >set between the CPU boards and the clock generators, and it has top >connectors to both the CPU and the clock. > >IIRC, without the EAE, there's nothing on the top connectors of the M8330 >clock, and 1 top connector between the 2 CPU boards (maybe 2 -- whereever >there are 2 connectors aligned on the 2 CPU boards). Looks like the EAE would have one connector to the Clock, and one to the CPU board set. >Worth cleaning the top connectors as well... I cleaned them, but it might not have been good enough. I ended up using rubbing alcohol to clean all the contacts on the boards. >> Been looking through the maintenance manual, and it looks like among the >> things I need to do tomorrow to check this out is to test voltages on both >> the G104 and G227 boards. This has me wondering, does it matter if the > >Do you have a 'scope? This is the sort of problem where I'd start by >checking a few waveforms. Check to see if the CPU appears to be writing >data to memory. Check to see what the address decoder and XY drivers are >doing. Well, I've got what a friend tells me is a pretty good Tek scope, and no, he didn't sell it to me :^) However, I don't know that the probes are really usable for computer equipment (the two with it look homemade, and the Tek probe I scavanged about 20 years ago either from the dumpster outside the Tek Country store, or the store itself). Then there is the embarassing part, I still haven't figured out how to use a scope... I'm sure I can pretty much figure it out without to much difficulty, just concerned about the probes. Been meaning to get a decent set, but... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 21 13:58:03 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: <19991121163410.2327.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >One point about "symmetrical"... you _do_ have the core plane in right-side >up, don't you? IIRC, the OMNIBUS side of the core stack is the one with only >grounds on it; the connectors with all the signals going to and fro is for >the top. > >I'm not saying you did it, but it'd be easy to reinstall the stack with the >top side down. Excellent question, I'd not even considered this. Unfortunatly, or very likely fortunatly it was in there properly. Two reasons for that, one that's the way it came, and secondly the sticker that says it's a 4K core plane. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 21 14:26:39 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: References: <19991121163410.2327.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991121122549.02260360@mcmanis.com> At 11:58 AM 11/21/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >Excellent question, I'd not even considered this. Unfortunatly, or very >likely fortunatly it was in there properly. Two reasons for that, one >that's the way it came, and secondly the sticker that says it's a 4K core >plane. Remember, the CPU cards could have a blocked connector as well, they generate the write signal. --Chuck From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Nov 21 14:44:11 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 21, 1999 11:33:53 am" Message-ID: <19991121204419Z433965-22956+119@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >I have to at least partially disagree with you on this. Their > >consummer PCs may be of mixed quality, but their workstations are > >still the best you can get. We run a mixed shop with Sun, SGI, HP, > >IBM workstations and some old DEC alphas. The HPs are by far the > >most reliable. We have a high end SGI (a multi-pipe IR) that has > > The HP's are the most reliable?!?!?! Guess you don't have many do you? > I'm so thankful that I don't have to deal with the HP's at work it isn't > funny! HP always seems to have people on site for repairs. We have quite a number of them, and largely no problems. I wish we could say the same thing about SGI and IBM. We are finally getting rid of the last of our IBM's. Absolutely no resale value on them, too hard to maintain, and flakey as .... > > I worked with HP Workstations several years ago, and really liked them. > Although I found their habit of totally changing the way devices are > handled in HP-UX between different versions, more than just a little > irritating! I take it you've never worked on SGI workstations. They like to change things completely between maintenance releases. We won't even put in an OS patch if we know there is an important demos coming up within the next month, just too much of a risk. > > All the Sun's I've had to deal with are very reliable, and the IBM's are > pretty good two, but considering the vintage of the one on my desk at work, > I can't say much either way on IBM's since I've not worked on a modern > system (it was old 3 years ago when I started working there, but I won't > give it up becuase it would be replaced with an NT box). > We have staff onsite for maintaining our Suns. The only workstations we have onsite staff for, and its not because of numbers. In our Sun labs we always have two spare workstation to handle breakdowns. We don't need to do this in our HP labs. Unfortunately the number 2 is a bit low, but we don't have any more extra space in the Sun labs. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 21 14:49:12 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 21, 1999 11:33:53 am" Message-ID: <199911212049.PAA03584@pechter.dyndns.org> > > All the Sun's I've had to deal with are very reliable, and the IBM's are > pretty good two, but considering the vintage of the one on my desk at work, > I can't say much either way on IBM's since I've not worked on a modern > system (it was old 3 years ago when I started working there, but I won't > give it up becuase it would be replaced with an NT box). Well, I lost the first Ultra-10 I had within 10 days of it's arrival. The early IBM PCI 133mhz Power PC boxes had wierd problems without logging any errors in the errorlog. OS patches fixed that one around AIX 4.1.3. Following a board swap my machines ran for a year without a crash. Most of my Ultras have been pretty relable as far as hardware. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 21 15:53:54 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Great Saturday Message-ID: <019b01bf346a$e85dc3a0$6d711fd1@jrkeysppt> Yesterday was a pretty good day for me, as I found some of the following: 1. Tomy robot at thrift for $2.80 need some work but could not pass on it, too low a price. 2. Mics Grid items. 3. Nice Apple Mac items most not 10 years old yet. 4. 12 AMIGA software packages NEW and Unopened for the 500/1000/2000 series. 5. Various cards for the Apple II, IIplus, and IIe with some manuals. 6. About 30+ books from Apples to Next machines. 7. A Travel Data Systems 28 computer complete and new in box for $2.50 at thrift. 8. Koala pad for Apple II. IIplus, IIe 9. Something TG Products in Planto TX has mounting for 6 chips each with it's own switch ????? And many more items not yet 10 years old. Keep on Computing John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/d59644d0/attachment.html From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 21 16:03:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Great Saturday Message-ID: <991121170350.2020093a@trailing-edge.com> >9. Something TG Products in Planto TX has mounting for 6 chips each with = >it's own switch ????? Seeing how much of the rest of the stuff you got was Apple ][-related, I'll hazard a guess that this is a switchbox for allowing multiple Joysticks/ Paddles/etc. to be switched for use on a single Apple ][. The "old" ][/][+ joystick/paddle connector was the DIP socket and plug. The Koala Pad that you picked up emulates a Apple analog joystick, BTW (or two paddles, if you prefer to think like that!) Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sun Nov 21 16:54:23 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: PS Pinout needed Message-ID: Hi, Someone a while back was going to check out the PS pinout for an HP Windows Client 425SX, but I lost the original message to remember who... Does anyone have it handy? The scratched sticker on the back looks like it says 20V~, but it's pretty scratched. The connector is 4 prongs in a row... Thanks, Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 13:34:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991121140005.4f670576@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Nov 21, 99 02:00:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/2dc1c6ab/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Sun Nov 21 17:17:43 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... References: Message-ID: <000701bf3476$9ddf36e0$0101a8c0@jay> My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus. Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy? Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card? Thanks in advance for any replies! Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 21 17:31:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <19991121204419Z433965-22956+119@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 21, 1999 11:33:53 am" Message-ID: >We have quite a number of them, and largely no problems. I wish In the last couple years we've gotten about 200+ I think at our site alone, don't know the exact number. >I take it you've never worked on SGI workstations. They like to I touched one about twice, and that's about all I've done :^) >We have staff onsite for maintaining our Suns. The only workstations >we have onsite staff for, and its not because of numbers. In our Sun >labs we always have two spare workstation to handle breakdowns. We >don't need to do this in our HP labs. Unfortunately the number 2 is >a bit low, but we don't have any more extra space in the Sun labs. Hmmm, the only problems I've ever seen is a hard drive dying on a *old* system, or problems with RAM on that same system, the rest just seem to run. We've got everything from Sparc 2's to Ultra 2's, though these days we're mainly Ultra's for what Sun's we still have. We prefer Sun's, but have a *very* hard time getting them. HP's are a piece of cake for us to get. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 21 18:41:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19991121110555.2a671a72@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.3.32.19991120202208.068408b0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991121184152.47ff7068@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:40 AM 11/21/99 -0800, Zane muttered: >But their naming conventions are even worse than DEC's! So what the &&&& >is a 9845? It's a BIG calculator. The CPU looks like a huge Commie 64 and weighs about 80 pounds. The monitor adds about 50 pounds more. Then add in a couple of 8" disk drives at 35 pounds each and a HP-IB plotter that weighs 100 pounds and is the size of a kitchen table. Well you get the idea! Of course since it's HP-IB, there's all kinds of interesting peripherals and instruments you can hang on it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 21 19:36:13 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Tektronix u8002 uProcessor Lab (MicroProcessor Developement System) Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991121193613.467f0d94@mailhost.intellistar.net> Does anyone have one of these? I picked up the manuals for one and it looks like an interesting device. Joe From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 21 17:39:58 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <004001bf3417$38cb4140$4e3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > I've found a box with 2 x 8" floppy drives. . . . external to some unknown > computer. > > The box is a Panasonic JB3038P and inside are 2 X JA751 drives. > The drive connectors and the cable coming out of the box are all 50 pin, > exactly like an internal SCSI cable. Unfortunately it isn't recognised by a > SCSI controller, at least not without fiddling with parity and stuff like > that. > > Does anyone know what this might have been for? > > SCSI 8" floppy drives would have been great cos I don't think I'm ever going > to find a compaticard ! > > Hans You may not even need a CompatiCard, depending upon the disks that you intend to read. You 'wire weave' a cable between a 50-pin SA800 connector and the usual 34-pin FDC connector using the information below: ******************************************************************** The following table is extracted from the CompatiCard manual: Card 34 37 50 8 Inch Drive Signal Name Pin Pin Direction Pin Signal Name ======================================================================== Programmable 2 3 ---> 2 Low Current Index 8 6 <--- 20 Index Drive Select 1/3 12 8 ---> 28 Drive Select 2 Motor Enable 1/3 16 10 ---> 18 Head Load Step Direction 18 11 ---> 34 Direction Select Step Pulse 20 12 ---> 36 Step Write Data 22 13 ---> 38 Write Data Write Enable 24 14 ---> 40 Write Gate Track 0 26 15 <--- 42 Track 0 Write Protect 28 16 <--- 44 Write Protect Read Data 30 17 <--- 46 Read Data Select Head 1 32 18 ---> 14 Side Select Connect odd number pins of 34 pin connector to odds of 50 pin connector Connect pins 21/37 of the DB-37 to all the odd pins on 50 pin connector ************************************************************************ If the disks you intend to read are double density a HD (1.2mb/1.44mb) capable FDC should work fine. If they are SD, you may be in some difficulty. However, there are 8-bit HD capable FDCs with onboard BIOS that are capable of handling that also. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 17:44:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Argh!!! PDP-8/m Memory In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121122549.02260360@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 21, 99 12:26:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/d733e3ac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 17:25:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <19991121181705Z433951-22953+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Nov 21, 99 11:17:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1327 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991121/cbe1a80a/attachment.ksh From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 21 18:06:08 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: <000701bf3476$9ddf36e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: AFAIK, the Apple II always supported color - in part, that is what made it so popular. I'm sure you can pick one up for $10 or so if you are feeling nostalgic. Sorry, I don't have the software. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 6:18 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus. Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy? Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card? Thanks in advance for any replies! Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 21 18:30:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... Message-ID: <002401bf3480$b9aacce0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've never seen an Apple ][+ which didn't "do" color. It was not unusual to see them hooked to the TV. Often there were two floppy drives, and a 9" Sanyo B&W "security" monitor sitting on top of the Apple][+ box with a feed-through to an overhead mounted color monitor, 27" or so, for people in a classroom to watch. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 4:35 PM Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... >My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer >Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the >pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus. > >Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now >that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any >chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy? > >Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I >always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it >around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color >monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card? > >Thanks in advance for any replies! > >Jay West > From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 21 18:40:59 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:39 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD's under emulators References: <991120100940.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3838911B.DAB1ED7C@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Perhaps Tim Shoppa or Megan Gentry could comment on the > >legality of using PUTR to split apart SIG tapes into their smaller > >DSK files. > The RT-11 (and RSX-11 and RSTS/E and ...) SIG tapes, like all DECUS > contributed material, had their authors sign pieces of paper stating > that the material can be redistributed and repackaged as necessary. > So there's no problem with manipulating any of these as you need or > desire. Jerome Fine replies: I was also going to ask if it was legal to use the hobby version of the E11 emulator to split apart the SIG tapes. Fortunately that is not necessary since PUTR is available. But I just took a quick look at all the DSK files and a few are larger than an RL02 disk pack. Which would mean that the Supnik emulator would not be able to handle the complete set of files in those DSKs since no MSCP emulation is available - unless the Supnik emulator is allowed to address more than 20450 blocks for the RL02 emulation. It is certainly disappointing to know that there is a perfectly good hobby emulator available which actually does work, of course, but is just not allowed to be used on a hobby basis with V5.3 of RT-11 although V5.3 is allowed to be used on a hobby basis, but only with an emulator written by DEC - which for the PC hardware running DOS/W95/W98 is the Supnik emulator. So for you fellows who are using the Supnik emulator with V5.3 of RT-11 on a PC under DOS/W95/W98, you must still rely on PUTR to legally extract the DSKs at the very end of the larger ones which exceed the size of an RL02 as opposed to using the hobby version of E11 with V5.3 of RT-11. Also, if you have a SCSI CD-ROM drive, PUTR will allow access to the last 7 partitions on the CD while you would have to have the "Full" commercial version of E11 to do the same. I will also investigate the use of the "Full" commercial V2.1A of E11 to access those partitions using an IDE based CD-ROM drive on a PC and let you know the results. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 21 18:38:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive Message-ID: <002901bf3481$ee747ba0$0400c0a8@winbook> I never gave this much thought because I have a compaticard, though I have never used it. I've taken it out of the box, though, hence the manual, floppy, and board are all in different (and unknown) places. There's no doubt that the 765, which is the controller on which essentially all PC FD controllers is definitely SD capable, since it's also used in one of my S-100 systems where it does SD every day. Surely there's some way to fool the FDC, perhaps by talking to it directly to accomplish a few simple operaitons, which will enable you to read/write SD 8" diskettes. I say this because the data rate for SD 8" is the same as for DD 5-1/4, so the clock must be there. The rest has got to be software once you've got the cable made. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive > > >On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > >> I've found a box with 2 x 8" floppy drives. . . . external to some unknown >> computer. >> >> The box is a Panasonic JB3038P and inside are 2 X JA751 drives. >> The drive connectors and the cable coming out of the box are all 50 pin, >> exactly like an internal SCSI cable. Unfortunately it isn't recognised by a >> SCSI controller, at least not without fiddling with parity and stuff like >> that. >> >> Does anyone know what this might have been for? >> >> SCSI 8" floppy drives would have been great cos I don't think I'm ever going >> to find a compaticard ! >> >> Hans > >You may not even need a CompatiCard, depending upon the disks that you >intend to read. You 'wire weave' a cable between a 50-pin SA800 >connector and the usual 34-pin FDC connector using the information >below: > >******************************************************************** > > The following table is extracted from the CompatiCard manual: > > Card 34 37 50 8 Inch Drive >Signal Name Pin Pin Direction Pin Signal Name >======================================================================== >Programmable 2 3 ---> 2 Low Current >Index 8 6 <--- 20 Index >Drive Select 1/3 12 8 ---> 28 Drive Select 2 >Motor Enable 1/3 16 10 ---> 18 Head Load >Step Direction 18 11 ---> 34 Direction Select >Step Pulse 20 12 ---> 36 Step >Write Data 22 13 ---> 38 Write Data > >Write Enable 24 14 ---> 40 Write Gate >Track 0 26 15 <--- 42 Track 0 >Write Protect 28 16 <--- 44 Write Protect >Read Data 30 17 <--- 46 Read Data >Select Head 1 32 18 ---> 14 Side Select > >Connect odd number pins of 34 pin connector to odds of 50 pin connector >Connect pins 21/37 of the DB-37 to all the odd pins on 50 pin connector > >************************************************************************ > >If the disks you intend to read are double density a HD (1.2mb/1.44mb) >capable FDC should work fine. If they are SD, you may be in some >difficulty. However, there are 8-bit HD capable FDCs with onboard BIOS >that are capable of handling that also. > > - don > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 21 19:13:10 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 21, 1999 7:34:11 pm" Message-ID: <199911220113.UAA04104@pechter.dyndns.org> > > >Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically > > >and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I > > >love working on such machines. > > > > > >Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their > > >support at the moment is a total joke. > > > > Very true but there are still lots of fine old HPs out there that need > > > Joe > > > > -tony When I was a young Vax tech with DEC at Fort Monmouth, I worked in the same computer room with a bunch of other Mini guys. The DG guy, the Concurrent/Perkin Elmer guy, the Rohm guy. (Actually everyone got along pretty well except for the IBM folks, who wouldn't talk to anyone.) Anyway, we all pretty much loaned each other tools and held stuff that the other needed soldered when asked... The HP guy told me he was an 11/40 tech on DEC stuff earlier in his career and he hated the way the DEC boxes were built and cabled. I showed him the 11/780 design and layout and diags and he walked me over to the HP mini. One slick piece of hardware. The boards were cabled together neatly with one over the edge cable. All the traces were gold plated and it was a pretty sight. He said HP stood for one thing "High Priced." But he was right about the quality for the price. First rate mechanicals. I learned Basic on an HP2000 in college, so I felt VAX/VMS was lightyears ahead on software... (I still feel that way after seeing MPE when I worked for Concurrent in '88). I've never seen a machine as slick as that (although the Alliant FX/8's diags which put PWR LO/PWR HIGH, CLK SLO, CLOCK HI in the LED alphanumerics when running diags was a slick trick. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 21 20:01:10 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Great Saturday References: <991121170350.2020093a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001001bf348d$736e3a20$51701fd1@jrkeysppt> Thanks for the tips. John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 4:03 PM Subject: RE: Great Saturday > >9. Something TG Products in Planto TX has mounting for 6 chips each with = > >it's own switch ????? > > Seeing how much of the rest of the stuff you got was Apple ][-related, I'll > hazard a guess that this is a switchbox for allowing multiple Joysticks/ > Paddles/etc. to be switched for use on a single Apple ][. The "old" > ][/][+ joystick/paddle connector was the DIP socket and plug. > > The Koala Pad that you picked up emulates a Apple analog joystick, BTW (or > two paddles, if you prefer to think like that!) > > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 18:26:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: <000701bf3476$9ddf36e0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Nov 21, 99 05:17:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/ff8232e6/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 21 20:26:37 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: AGAIN: SD (FM) on PC (Was: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <002901bf3481$ee747ba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I never gave this much thought because I have a compaticard, though I have > never used it. I've taken it out of the box, though, hence the manual, > floppy, and board are all in different (and unknown) places. Ah, yes. We've all been there. I don't think that you'll really need the manual, but if you do, several of us can help. I assume that the disk was simply the current version of Uniform. If you have multiple versions, save them all. Towards the end, they seemed to be having so many support problems that they backed off from inclusion of several problematic features, such as being able to read and write the wrong Head number field on the second side of Kaypro DS disks. > There's no doubt that the 765, which is the controller on which essentially > all PC FD controllers is definitely SD capable, since it's also used in one > of my S-100 systems where it does SD every day. > Surely there's some way to fool the FDC, perhaps by talking to it directly > to accomplish a few simple operaitons, which will enable you to read/write > SD 8" diskettes. I say this because the data rate for SD 8" is the same as > for DD 5-1/4, so the clock must be there. The rest has got to be software > once you've got the cable made. YES, the 765 can do FM. YES, SOME FDC boards were appropriately designed. NO, the OEM IBM boards could NOT do FM, even if you do the software and cable. That is because IBM hardwired their board for MFM. Some of the knockoffs of the 765, such as the 37C65 did not require any additional wiring for doing FM. Therefore, if you want to do FM, you either need * a board with one of the variant (such as 37C65) chips, or * one that has the FM/MFM pin wired up (such as the Compaticard), or * modify the IBM board with a few minor trace cuts and added wires (such as Flagstaff Engineering). -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 21 20:38:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: <199911220113.UAA04104@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 21, 99 08:13:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/357ee09a/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 21 20:50:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD's under emulators References: <991120100940.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199911220250.VAA07748@world.std.com> >So for you fellows who are using the Supnik emulator with V5.3 of RT-11 >on a PC under DOS/W95/W98, you must still rely on PUTR to legally >extract the DSKs at the very end of the larger ones which exceed the >size of an RL02 as opposed to using the hobby version of E11 with >V5.3 of RT-11. Also, if you have a SCSI CD-ROM drive, PUTR >will allow access to the last 7 partitions on the CD while you would >have to have the "Full" commercial version of E11 to do the same. I >will also investigate the use of the "Full" commercial V2.1A of E11 >to access those partitions using an IDE based CD-ROM drive on a >PC and let you know the results. If in fact there is as much of a problem as you say (have you tried it yet), it certainly shouldn't be much of a problem to edit the RL source so that the VARSZ$ .SPFUN returns a larger size. Remember, the whole idea behind VARSZ$ was to remove any device-specific size dependencies from the RT monitor or utilities. If it reports that the disk is a larger size, so be it. I'd certainly try that (after simply trying it without making the change). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Nov 21 21:20:37 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD's under emulators References: <991120100940.202007e1@trailing-edge.com> <199911220250.VAA07748@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3838B684.51A9EAB9@idirect.com> >Megan wrote: > >So for you fellows who are using the Supnik emulator with V5.3 of RT-11 > >on a PC under DOS/W95/W98, you must still rely on PUTR to legally > >extract the DSKs at the very end of the larger ones which exceed the > >size of an RL02 as opposed to using the hobby version of E11 with > >V5.3 of RT-11. Also, if you have a SCSI CD-ROM drive, PUTR > >will allow access to the last 7 partitions on the CD while you would > >have to have the "Full" commercial version of E11 to do the same. I > >will also investigate the use of the "Full" commercial V2.1A of E11 > >to access those partitions using an IDE based CD-ROM drive on a > >PC and let you know the results. > If in fact there is as much of a problem as you say (have you tried > it yet), it certainly shouldn't be much of a problem to edit the RL > source so that the VARSZ$ .SPFUN returns a larger size. Remember, > the whole idea behind VARSZ$ was to remove any device-specific size > dependencies from the RT monitor or utilities. If it reports that > the disk is a larger size, so be it. > > I'd certainly try that (after simply trying it without making the > change). Jerome Fine replies: Hey, that is a great idea. How about: a SET command in the RL02 device driver which can: "SET DL: SIZE=n" That way, it becomes very easy. But for the time being, finding the value "20450" in octal should be easy. Then see if it works after making the change. Naturally, I would recommend great caution like making the file READ-ONLY, which it already is on the CD. In E11, however, it may not work since I suspect that the emulation is fixed to a specific file size. A smaller file is OK, but the software to support the emulation does not allow a larger file. What about in the Supnik emulator? That is a great work around if the emulator supports it. Thank you Megan! Of course, even in the hobby emulator, the free hobby V2.1 of E11 now allows a DUn: MSCP MOUNT command. So the hobby version of E11 can still manage any file up to 65536 blocks (or whatever the maximum number of blocks around the 65,000 mark is). But the hobby user who does so would not being doing so in a strictly legal fashion. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From aek at spies.com Sun Nov 21 21:25:55 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: lasner@unc.edu ? Message-ID: <199911220325.TAA16561@spies.com> This came up at dinner with Eric Smith on Friday. Is Charles Lasner (lasner@unc.edu) still with us? I have a bad feeling about this.. This email adr doesn't work any more, and the last posting from him was in 1996. From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Nov 21 22:17:41 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: <000701bf3476$9ddf36e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Jay West wrote: > My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer > Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the > pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus. > > Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now > that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any > chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy? > > Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I > always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it > around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color > monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card? > > Thanks in advance for any replies! > > Jay West > Hi Jay, Your best bet is to go to one of the 'pirate' sites for Apple software, 'ftp.apple.asimov.net' comes to mind. There you will find disk images for a lot of programs, including the system master disks. Depending on how patient you are, it isn't unreasonable to download DOS across the serial line to the machine, then download the disk image and write it to a real disk one sector at a time (using RWTS). If you use the DOS 3.3 with ADT, then you have a bootable disk that can be used to download more images across the serial line. If you don't have a serial port, I would recommend buying a super serial II on EBay (about $10). As for the color monitor, I have tied them to the video input jack on my TV or VCR. This was how many Apples were run in the early days, and you get color too!!!! Good luck, clint From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 21 23:14:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: AGAIN: SD (FM) on PC (Was: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I never gave this much thought because I have a compaticard, though I have > > never used it. I've taken it out of the box, though, hence the manual, > > floppy, and board are all in different (and unknown) places. > > Ah, yes. We've all been there. I don't think that you'll really need the > manual, but if you do, several of us can help. I assume that the disk was > simply the current version of Uniform. If you have multiple versions, > save them all. Towards the end, they seemed to be having so many support > problems that they backed off from inclusion of several problematic > features, such as being able to read and write the wrong Head number field > on the second side of Kaypro DS disks. The probability is that the disk that he has(?) only contains several of the utilities that go with the CompatiCard (CCFORMAT, CCDRIVES, BACKFMT, and CC$DRV.SYS or variant), Fred. UniForm was normally a separate package with its own disk. > > There's no doubt that the 765, which is the controller on which essentially > > all PC FD controllers is definitely SD capable, since it's also used in one > > of my S-100 systems where it does SD every day. > > Surely there's some way to fool the FDC, perhaps by talking to it directly > > to accomplish a few simple operaitons, which will enable you to read/write > > SD 8" diskettes. I say this because the data rate for SD 8" is the same as > > for DD 5-1/4, so the clock must be there. The rest has got to be software > > once you've got the cable made. > > YES, the 765 can do FM. > YES, SOME FDC boards were appropriately designed. > NO, the OEM IBM boards could NOT do FM, even if you do the software and > cable. That is because IBM hardwired their board for MFM. > Some of the knockoffs of the 765, such as the 37C65 did not require any > additional wiring for doing FM. I have also had excellent success doing FM with the National Semiconductor 847n chips, but I do not really know whether these are 'self contained' like the 37C65 or just happen to have external wiring. - don > Therefore, if you want to do FM, you either need > * a board with one of the variant (such as 37C65) chips, or > * one that has the FM/MFM pin wired up (such as the Compaticard), or > * modify the IBM board with a few minor trace cuts and added wires (such > as Flagstaff Engineering). > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 01:30:17 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11/60 WCS (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19991122073017.25198.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Wasn't the writeable control store an option for the 11/60 as well? I > seem to remember that the 11/60 I did a couple of minor repairs on didn't > have this board. In fact, the 11/60 was the ONLY non-microprocessor-based PDP-11 that had a writable control store option. (The VAX-11/7xx machines aren't really PDP-11s, though they do have a compatability mode.) There was an aftermarket WCS option for the 11/45. However, this was a very hairy device, because the standard 11/45 hardware did not have enough leftover microcode address space to be useful, nor did it have any data paths beyond what were necessary for the standard microcode. They had to add a whole lot of stuff. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 01:33:37 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: pdp-11/60 WCS In-Reply-To: <199911201729.MAA01032@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:29:05 -0500 (EST)) References: <199911201729.MAA01032@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19991122073337.25229.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > The folks at Reuters supposedly used the WCS to make the 11/60 the > worlds fastest PDP8. I've heard of this before, but never found anyone with details. Did anyone save a copy of it? > (Wonder if the SIM PDP8 or the PDP8 emulator Doug Jones > would be faster on a Pentium class pc). Almost certainly. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 01:49:36 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Sat, 20 Nov 1999 22:45:11 -0800 (PST)) References: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <19991122074936.25271.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > The only rental truck available on 1 day notice was a 5 ton monster from > Ryder. The gear fit easily in the back. We roped it in as best as > possible, but alas during the 7 mile drive between Dallas' and the storage > locker place, the CPU unit broke its ropes, and despite being restrained > by boxes of docs and the terminals, rolled around and dented the back of > the tape drive unit. Lessons learned from this experience: 1) Don't rent big trucks from Ryder. They have terrible transmissions. I couldn't always get this thing from 1st into 2nd. Sometimes it wanted to go into 4th. When it would go into 2nd, it made horrible grinding sounds. I don't know much about the workings of transmissions, but at the very least it seems like the shift plate needed replacement. Since I've had this experience with Ryder trucks before, I conclude that either they're badly designed or badly maintained. I've had much better luck with Budget (now owned by Sears). 2) Use ratcheting nylon tie-downs to secure everything in place. I normally always do this. However, due to the scheduling constraints, I was unable to bring any to Vancouver with me. I wanted to buy some in Vancouver, but I let Kevin and Dallas talk me into just using rope purchased at the lumber yard across the street. I got some 900 lb. rated stuff that looked reasonably sturdy. During transit, I heard a lot of noise from the cargo area. However, that's not too unusual even if things are tied down. But when we arrived, we discovered that the ropes had broken, and the 11/60, disk, and tape cabinets had all been rolling around banging into each other and the sides of the truck. By comparison, when I moved six PDP-11/70 systems recently (a total of about 35 racks), the ratcheting nylon tie-downs held everything in place quite well. A few of the ratchet mechanisms failed, presumably due to loading them beyond their intended weight limit, but the failure mode was that they refused to release, and the straps stayed secure. > A liftgate > equipped truck will be mandatory - we'd never be able to get the machine > back up the ramp by pushing/pulling. Hmmm a block and tackle or winch > might work too... My research indicates that truck rental companies have trucks that they will rent out for one-way use, and that they have trucks with liftgates, but that the intersection of the two sets is null. :-( Apparently they don't think people want to move heavy items over long distances. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Mon Nov 22 02:19:11 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit References: <3.0.1.16.19991121193613.467f0d94@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3838FC7F.B03567F5@softstar.it> Hi all, Does anybody have some docs of the Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit? I have picked one up because it based on a LSI-11/2 (M7270) and it reminds me of my first job in Olivetti many years ago. Apparently the power supply is dead. I'm looking possibly the schematics of the power supply and the RT-11 disks. TIA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 02:00:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP 21xx vs DEC PDP-8 architecture (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: <002d01bf3437$4f1cdb00$0101a8c0@jay> (west@tseinc.com) References: <3.0.1.16.19991120181501.22e7c6de@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19991121110555.2a671a72@mailhost.intellistar.net> <002d01bf3437$4f1cdb00$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <19991122080045.25312.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jay West" wrote: > I dearly love my PDP-8E, but I truely believe the architecture on the HP > 21MX line to be far more elegant. Not necessarily superior, but certainly > more elegant. Just my own biased opinion.... Not even particularly more elegant. In a general sense, the architecture is the SAME. Aside from changing the word size to 16 bits (which is either two fewer or four more bits than comparable DEC machines), the only big enhancement is the provision of a second accumulator. Even the memory addressing works the same way: one bit of memory reference instructions selects page zero vs. current page, and one bit enables indirection. The non-memory-reference instructions are "microcoded" in the same manner as the DEC 12-bit and 18-bit computer families. All of HP's clever and original architectural design went into the HP 9100 programmable calculator and the HP 3000 stack-based computer. The HP 21xx were just a me-too design; Either HP was trying to build a wider PDP-5 or PDP-8, or a narrower PDP-9. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 02:07:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: <199911211857.NAA03400@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:57:21 -0500 (EST)) References: <199911211857.NAA03400@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19991122080752.25348.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > ...And you folks make fun of old DEC Field Service guys 8-( No, the OLD field service guys were great. (At least, many of them were.) It was the NEW field service guys that we referred to as "field circus". Sometime in the early eighties DEC decided that instead of having module swapping as ONE of the fault available diagnosis and repair techniques, it would be the ONLY technique. By amazing coincidence, about that same time many of the OLD field service people quit. But since module swapping is so easy, DEC management was able to "replace" them with (barely) trained monkeys. Of course, repair by module swapping is most effective if you have some idea of which modules it makes sense to swap, but that would require expen$ive training. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 02:13:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: <000701bf3476$9ddf36e0$0101a8c0@jay> (west@tseinc.com) References: <000701bf3476$9ddf36e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <19991122081307.25368.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I > always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it > around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color > monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card? The Apple ][ supported color from day 1, although the earliest revisions of the logic board (before the ][+) only supported four colors [*] in high-resolution mode, vs. six colors [*] on later boards. The color support, combined with the open architecture and not-too-ridiculous price are largely credited with Apple's amazing success in the early days. Eric [*] In this context, black and white are considered to be colors. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 02:17:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: <199911220113.UAA04104@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:13:10 -0500 (EST)) References: <199911220113.UAA04104@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19991122081729.25392.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > I showed him the 11/780 design and layout and diags and he walked me > over to the HP mini. One slick piece of hardware. The boards were > cabled together neatly with one over the edge cable. All the traces > were gold plated and it was a pretty sight. > > He said HP stood for one thing "High Priced." But he was right about > the quality for the price. First rate mechanicals. Actually, DEC used over-the-edge cabling on an early minicomputer, and abandoned it because it was LESS reliable than backplane connection, and also made the machines much harder to service. Reference: _Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design_ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 02:19:35 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19991122081935.25405.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Incidentally, back when Apple ][s were current it was generally claimed > in the UK that if you plugged anything but a colourcard into slot 7 you > would do serious damage to the machine. Looking at the schematics I can't > see a reason why this will do any damage, but I've never had the courage > to try it. Anyone know anything about this? Probably just an urban legend, like the ones about how all your memory chips need to be from the same vendor, and how they must all be the same speed, and how you shouldn't use 120 ns DRAMs in a computer designed for 150 ns DRAMs, and similar BS. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 02:27:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: 11/60 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <19991122074936.25271.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 22 Nov 1999 07:49:36 -0000) References: <199911210645.WAA02402@fraser.sfu.ca> <19991122074936.25271.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <19991122082716.25453.qmail@brouhaha.com> Previously I wrote: > but I let Kevin and Dallas talk me into just using rope Just so no one gets the wrong idea, I want to make it clear that I am >*VERY*< thankful for all of the considerable assistance Kevin and Dallas provided for this operation, and my comment was not intended in any way to be critical of them. I was only describing this problem in order to help others avoid it. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 22 03:24:08 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems Message-ID: OK, I've discovered something, but have no idea what it means. For all that goes, I am honestly not sure why I discovered it other than I was fooling around with the front panel while checking voltages on the memory module. I had the following results when depositing 7777 to the memory. Memory locations: xxx0 - xxx3 don't save anything Memory locations: xxx4 - xxx7 save 7760 This holds true to at least location 0200. On to other matters, I'm trying to do the resistance checks on pg. 4-16. I've run into a couple of problems. It says that each winding for one bit is ~3 ohms, however I show them at ~6 ohms. Also step 6 tells me to check the resistance of diodes FSA2501. Um, someone mind explaining how to do this exactly? Beware, I don't have the equipment to put the core plane on extenders and run cables to the G104 & G227 boards. Near as I can figure out they're a diode array from Fairchild Semiconductor, however thier web site doesn't have a data sheet. Shouldn't the resistance readings from one chip match that of another chip? Oh, I do have the scope at home now, but haven't tried anything yet, or checked into how horrible the probes are (I remember they're pretty pathetic). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 22 06:52:16 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Materialthickness) In-Reply-To: References: <199911192009.VAA20956@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <199911221153.MAA28440@mail2.siemens.de> > >> Since we are talking fluid cooling, anybody putting a heatsink on both > >> sides of the chip? > >> I would not worry too much about the water side, pressure and flow can work > >> wonders there, but would keep the copper plate just thick enough to avoid > >> hot spots and cover as much of the chip surface as electrically possible. > >Well, sounds gut at first sight - just three problems: > >First you have only a _very_ small free area on the 'other' side - there > >are some nasty pins, and somehor it is no-good to touch them. > >Ans second, this is hard to do in any standard board - and even > >with custom extenders you still have to connect them and the > >wire length becomes a problem - adding 10% corespeed and loosing > >20% bus speed isn't exactly a gain. > What I had in mind was a hole in the motherboard, perhaps two (water > in/out), with a small plate making contact directly under the "chip". My > guess is that it could be substantly more effective given the internal > construction of most chips. Well, take a look at any ordinary board, and you will notice that the 'free' space below the CPU isn't free at all - 4 to 6 layers of connections - and I just asume they may have some sense - also the reachaple surface is _very small (less than 3cm^2). I just see I forgot to mention problem number 3: The bottom side has (AFAIK) never a usable (and thermal relevant) connection to the chip itself. wouldn't it be somewhat stupid to rely on thermal transport into a region where under all normal circumstanses no or only a minimal heatremovel is possible ?). Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 22 06:47:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: lasner@unc.edu ? Message-ID: <991122074715.2020095d@trailing-edge.com> >This came up at dinner with Eric Smith on Friday. Is Charles Lasner >(lasner@unc.edu) still with us? I have a bad feeling about this.. >This email adr doesn't work any more, and the last posting from him >was in 1996. You might try "lasner@metalab.unc.edu". From my account there: $ run [.fish]fish _Host: login.metalab.unc.edu _Port: Connected to host titan.metalab.unc.edu, port 22. Remote version: SSH-1.5-1.2.26 %FISH-I-INFO, Exchanging Keys %FISH-I-INFO, Cipher: blowfish Logging in as user shoppa Password: %FISH-I-INFO, Entering interactive mode Last login: Tue Nov 16 22:17:33 1999 from timaxp.trailing- No mail. Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.6 Generic August 1997 NOTICE - We are no longer sunsite.unc.edu; we are now MetaLab.unc.edu Be sure to make all new links, e-mail, etc refer to MetaLab.unc.edu [titan.oit.unc.edu]% finger lasner Login name: lasner In real life: Charles Lasner Directory: /export/sunsite/users/lasner Shell: /bin/ksh Last login Mon Nov 22 01:48 on 2 from 216-59-45-177.us No unread mail No Plan. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From truthanl at oclc.org Mon Nov 22 06:57:39 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Racks ? Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EAE02@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> 24" wide cabinet are typically Telephone equipment racks. -----Original Message----- From: lwalker@interlog.com [mailto:lwalker@interlog.com] Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 10:40 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Racks ? I've been offered 2 castored racks by the owner of the place I am using temporarily for storage, which were abandoned by a previous occupant. They are about 5' high by 24'' wide with lockable front and rear doors. One of the rear doors had been forced open and I only got a quick glance inside. I made out a micropolis(IIRC) mfr. label on one module and a large "PDP 4800" stencil on another one which looked like a PSU. There were about 20 DB25 cables connected to one of the modules. I'm a complete novice when it comes to mini's, and due to storage space limitations plus that I would also have to remove them when I vacate my locker I've been reluctant to take them. Anyone have any idea on what they might be ? I realize this is not much info and will be looking at them again when I have a flashlight and a means of forcing open a front door panel. ciao larry From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Nov 22 08:46:59 1999 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) References: <199911211857.NAA03400@pechter.dyndns.org> <19991122080752.25348.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38395763.4C4FF5D3@arrl.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Of course, repair by module swapping is most effective if you have some > idea of which modules it makes sense to swap, but that would require > expen$ive training. Back in the mid '70s DEC got around this (in Los Angeles) by donating some PDP11/40's and PDP/8's to a local J.C. where I was taking classes part-time. DEC had an agreement with the school that they would get first shot at interviewing graduates. I soon started seeing some of my former "classmates" showing up as DEC FSR's at the flight sim shop where I worked. Results were dismal. If the sight of a flight simulator hung off of a bank of PDP-11/45s wasn't intimidating enough, and the rack full of Euro-made VT30 controllers didn't scare them off, the 2 11/45's with their Fastbusses joined together usually left them scratching their heads. I remember one young FSR immediately leaving after seeing this configuration, only to return several hours later with his supervisor in tow. While this was a supported feature of the /45's I would guess it was seldom implemented. We soon gave up on Field Circus and went to self-maintenance. Oh, BTW, were still using this DC-10 simulator (now located in Houston) and still running RT11 V02b thanks to an app so tied into the OS that upgrades are virtually impossible. Nick - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nick Oliviero : nolivi@coair.com Simulator Project Engineer : (281) 553-6507 - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Nov 22 08:55:37 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: lasner@unc.edu ? Message-ID: <01JIMRWCEDTE95MN38@cc.usu.edu> > This came up at dinner with Eric Smith on Friday. Is Charles Lasner > (lasner@unc.edu) still with us? I have a bad feeling about this.. > This email adr doesn't work any more, and the last posting from him > was in 1996. I've heard nothing from him since about that time. I've also asked this question several times over the last few years and never received a definitive response. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 22 12:23:48 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Materialthickness) In-Reply-To: <199911221153.MAA28440@mail2.siemens.de> References: <199911192009.VAA20956@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >I just see I forgot to mention problem number 3: >The bottom side has (AFAIK) never a usable (and thermal >relevant) connection to the chip itself. wouldn't it be >somewhat stupid to rely on thermal transport into a region >where under all normal circumstanses no or only a minimal >heatremovel is possible ?). That would be the fundamental problem, and I thought it was just the opposite, but I suspect you may be right. The bottom does look a lot like a "cap" now that I think about it. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 13:42:21 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11/60 WCS (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <19991122073017.25198.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 22, 1999 7:30:17 am" Message-ID: <199911221942.OAA05924@pechter.dyndns.org> > Tony wrote: > > Wasn't the writeable control store an option for the 11/60 as well? I > > seem to remember that the 11/60 I did a couple of minor repairs on didn't > > have this board. > > (The VAX-11/7xx machines aren't really PDP-11s, though they do have a > compatability mode.) > Actually the 11/780 is a memory storage unit for the console 11/03. Use the maintenance return routine to store stuff in the 11/780 WCS for expanded memory. 8-) -Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Nov 22 14:29:43 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) References: <3.0.2.32.19991122090713.00e701c0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3839A7B7.8D27F07C@cornell.edu> "Tony Duell" wrote: > Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their > support at the moment is a total joke. > > -tony Like others, I also disagree, at least in part. I think that it is pretty clear that "consumer electronics" HP products that are marketed for home use (Pavillions, IDE CDrom burners and the like) are awful in terms of quality. One of the most deplorable products that they have ever put out is the craddle for the HP 320LX and other such palmtops. Due to a design flaw, it can be easily bent along a certain axis, resulting in poor, intermittent connection and corresponding profanity by the user. Easily the worst mechanical design I have ever seen. But the enterprise-level stuff is still pretty robust (and, as always, $$pricey$$ ). In the computer and electronics labs here, where stuff undergoes inhumane abuse by students, it is still the HP equipment that lasts longest. Most, if not all, of the 715's and 720's that were bought ca. 1993 are still working. I don't remember any that was retired due to malfunction; rather, people upgraded. I have a stand-alone 735 that has been down two times since 1995, once because of a power failure that downed every machine in the building and another because of an OS upgrade. The newer workstations seem to be just as reliable by the account of my colleagues. Regarding your hp49, isn't this the first model churned out by the calculator division after its relocation to Australia? I agree that materials and durability have been downgraded; the 48SX is known for its easy-to-crack LCD, and I imagine that the 49 is worse. Like Joe, the last hp calculator that I really like is the hp71b. Which "advertised feature" did you not find in the 49? -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 12:56:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: PDP-11/60 WCS (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <19991122073017.25198.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 22, 99 07:30:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1539 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/51350a52/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 13:06:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: <19991122080752.25348.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 22, 99 08:07:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/060666f0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 13:11:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit In-Reply-To: <3838FC7F.B03567F5@softstar.it> from "Enrico Badella" at Nov 22, 99 09:19:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1098 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/019930c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 14:13:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 22, 99 01:24:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/3e8fe20e/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 16:05:23 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: <19991122081729.25392.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 22, 1999 8:17:29 am" Message-ID: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> > Bill Pechter wrote: > > I showed him the 11/780 design and layout and diags and he walked me > > over to the HP mini. One slick piece of hardware. The boards were > > cabled together neatly with one over the edge cable. All the traces > > were gold plated and it was a pretty sight. > > > > He said HP stood for one thing "High Priced." But he was right about > > the quality for the price. First rate mechanicals. > > Actually, DEC used over-the-edge cabling on an early minicomputer, and > abandoned it because it was LESS reliable than backplane connection, > and also made the machines much harder to service. > > Reference: _Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design_ A great book... but wrong on this one. The hp stuff had one over the edge interconnect cable of less than 10 inches. The DEC 11/40 (45,50,55,70, etc) in the BA11-F cabinet (the worst offender) had about 1/3 to 3/4 of an inch of ribbon cables (thickness) running through the cable trough an often popping off the Berg connector at the top of the Hex, Quad or Dual board (most had no locking ears on the connector. Yup, the backplane is more reliable as over the top connectors, but between board cables (RH11, RH70, Cache, etc) were my biggest pain in the @#$%^ at DEC). The 11/780 was a lot better with the exception of the lousy SBI cables that were failure prone and a bitch to troubleshoot. The only thing worse was the annoying cables on the back of the 11/750 that were not enclosed at all... I remember the failures of an Emulex Pertec 9 track tape controller which had it's data connector to the backpanel work loose on about 4 bits and happily wrote garbage to the tape while the control lines worked merrily along. And the Unix system didn't know the difference for 6 months until a drive died (read after write at the head is NOT data verification folks). DEC made great CPU's, decent busses and I/O boards but LOUSY CABLE layouts (including the 11/730). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 16:23:51 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: <19991122080752.25348.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 22, 1999 8: 7:52 am" Message-ID: <199911222223.RAA06226@pechter.dyndns.org> > Bill Pechter wrote: > > ...And you folks make fun of old DEC Field Service guys 8-( > > No, the OLD field service guys were great. (At least, many of them > were.) > > It was the NEW field service guys that we referred to as "field circus". > Sometime in the early eighties DEC decided that instead of having module > swapping as ONE of the fault available diagnosis and repair techniques, > it would be the ONLY technique. By amazing coincidence, about that same > time many of the OLD field service people quit. But since module > swapping is so easy, DEC management was able to "replace" them with > (barely) trained monkeys. As the monkey who started in 1981 at DEC... Thanks. 8-) > > Of course, repair by module swapping is most effective if you have some > idea of which modules it makes sense to swap, but that would require > expen$ive training. > Well, one problem at DEC was the overload of Field Service. In the early 80's DEC was selling more stuff than they could service effectively and they were bringing new folks on board very quickly. In the old days Field Service folk often pulled a turn in the factory doing Final Assembly and Test or Module Repair. As the DEC VAX stuff took more of the business from mainframes and expanded DEC from the OEM base into end user computing they needed to gear up folks quickly to work the field and do customer support. Early on they used ex-military techs and plant folks, but the number of them dropped in the late 70's and 80's... DEC invented a couple of new tricks to get people out there. They came up with the District Installation team. New lightly trained PDP and Vax techs with the newhire course pushed out to install systems coming from the factory. Often, they were sent out with a more experienced tech to teach them the diags and to "hold down the fort" when the more experienced tech was called to do real maintenance. Most of us DIT's (as we were called) worked our way up to Full Field Service Field Engineer II (T3F) tech spots as we got experience and training. A few of us got pushed hard into spots where we were pretty much over our heads and told to swim. Three months after being hired by DEC out of tech school (DeVry), I was pulling Vax Standby night service calls with minimal support and supervision. I finally got 11/780 training 2 1/2 years after I started with the company and after I was doing standby and weekend work for almost that long. Now, DEC's hiring practices had some good folks come in and move up pretty quickly. One guy went from Field Service to manager in 3 years. Sometimes folks who could barely fix VT100's without support (at a board swap level) ended up out on MicroVaxes and then 11/780's with pretty sorry results. There's a lot of things that went on inside DEC in the early to mid '80's that haven't seen the light of day. We were told in '86 in the good old days that the gravy train of Vaxes was going to drop and that Field Service had to increase productivity to keep from having DEC go deep into the red ink that finally led to Palmer taking over. Opinion warning: The following is written by a rabid DEC bigot. I left in '86 before the slide. However, the problem was the folks at DEC walked away from a fortune by not OEMing MicroVaxes and selling Vax chipsets and they basically dropped the 36 bit line and began walking away from the real time roots to chase IBM at the midrange and up... Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 16:03:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue) In-Reply-To: <3839A7B7.8D27F07C@cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo-Sanchez" at Nov 22, 99 03:29:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/c1d19931/attachment.ksh From enrico.badella at softstar.it Mon Nov 22 17:06:24 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit References: Message-ID: <3839CC70.F37230E1@softstar.it> Tony Duell wrote: > > I think I may have a user manual somewhere, but alas no schematics. > > This is part of a Tektronix development system. There's another unit, the > same size, that contains options like a logic analyser, EPROM programmer, > In-Circuit Emulator, etc. I used it quite a bit to debug an 80186 based 3270/SNA card for PCs and had all the manuals but I never saw any schematics. At that time I was young and unexperienced and didn't collect much stuff ;-) > > I have picked one up because it based on a LSI-11/2 (M7270) and it > > reminds me of my first job in Olivetti many years ago. > > Yes, it's a real DEC CPU card with Tektronix peripheral cards. The > backplane has one Q-bus connector at one end for the CPU and non-DEC edge > connectors for all the other cards. exactly > IIRC, these units either had 2 Qume 8" floppy drives or one floppy drive > and a Micropolis 1203 hard disk with the Micropolis controller board on top. Mine is the 2 Qume floppy type. Never saw the one with the HD, but I remember reding it ran some type of Unix. > Mine, alas, is not easy to get to, or I'd pull the covers and have a look > at the PSU for you. If you get no other help, you might just convince me > to have a look. I called Tek in Italy and the didn't even know what I was talking about 8-(. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 17:04:39 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 22, 1999 7: 6:52 pm" Message-ID: <199911222304.SAA06303@pechter.dyndns.org> Tony -- I'm starting to sound like an old fart here. Please shoot me before I call the DEC Field Service days the good old days. Oops folks... that was just my wife with a .38. Before I end up more than a quart low on B Positive... > > Of course, repair by module swapping is most effective if you have some > > idea of which modules it makes sense to swap, but that would require > > expen$ive training. DEC invested a ton on almost unlimited training if you worked hard and had a decent manager. I took a ton of courses because I volunteered to take any that the married folks with lived couldn't make due to personal committments or other work issues. > > Module swapping makes sense in one particular case : When the > tools/equipment to repair the old module are not availabe in the field, > or when the module would require complex realignment after the repair. In > that case it makes sense to swap a _known faulty_ module for a _known > good_ one and then repair the old one later. Of course, when you moved PDP's and Vaxes from the lab to commercial environments when downtime is REAL MONEY the amount of time given to troubleshoot a problem is determined by the customer who controls field service access to the box. We had sites that a whole controlled plant with a pair of 11/34s and the only maintenance you could do was Christmas or Easter and downtime was impossible to schedule until both machines flamed up. Often small sites would run intermittant machines until 5 minutes before their service contract would run out for the day (usually either 5 pm or pm or midnight) and then log the DECservice call which meant DEC had to do continous around the clock maintenance until the machine was up. Boy the number of 4:55pm calls on Friday used to really %R$^& me off including the one a printer at Roche medicalwhere the customer shimmed the ribbon path with test tube lids and left scalpul blades in the LP25 when I got sent out to work it. The printer was obviously having problems for at least a day or so before they finished their medical test runs -- but they waited to call until it was completely unreadable. > > What _never_ makes sense (IMHO) is module-swapping as a diagnostic > techinque -- that's to say replacing modules in the order specified by > the service manual until the fault goes away. We've had this arguement > before, and you'll never convince me otherwise. There are 2 main problems > with doing this : > > 1) A fault elsewhere in the machine may be damaging the module. Unless > you find _this_ fault, the new module will die soon as well. Seen it happen True. But this one usually damages the module (on digital, not analog signals) pretty quickly -- usually before the diag run finishes. I rarely saw the board slowly fail due to another board. Got any examples on DEC hardware where this happened. I'd like to hear of it. This is different with analog and video stuff or power supplies. > > 2) A marginal voltage/timing problem may confuse things. Supposing there > are 2 modules A and B, and some signals between them. Module A develops a > fault, so one signal is out of spec. The system falls over. The service > manual tells you to replace B first. You do, and by chance get one that > can accept a wider margin on this signal. The system comes up again. But > A continues to drift, and eventually the machine falls over again. > Absolutely, but again this is less likely in digital stuff than in analog stuff like read amps, video, power amps, servo signals etc. The CPU and communications stuff usually works correctly or it doesn't. (There are occasional wierd problems like the DMR unit that ran diags and DECnet but had a specific pattern sensitivity in the line unit that would go intermittant and drop out on large file transfers... but the thing that proved that problem WAS A BOARD SWAP.) > So you need to do tests -- proper tests -- to determine exactly which > modules are giving problems. And by the time you've done said tests > you've probably got enough information to know what's actually wrong with > the module, so you might as well solder in a new chip or whatever. > What pissed me off no end was the customer (Naval Air Propulsion, Trenton) who called me to ask me to change U41 on the TE16 logic and write board because his tape drive wouldn't go on line. I called this engineer back and told him I'd be in in about 3 weeks when logistics got me the chip. Or I could come down and swap the LAW board (was it an 8916 or 8912-- my memory seems to point to that number) in fifteen minutes and have him running again. I did scope the pin out and he was correct... but does it really matter that much if the online pulse doesn't get from the switch the one board that controlled all the circuitry on the door. It's obviously the one board if the switch contacts open and short ok. As far as tests go... DEC and IBM seem to have the best set of diagnostics out and the most redundant data paths to allow you to call the module out quickly. I really was amazed when I saw Perkin Elmer (Concurrent) 3200 series stuff and realized DEC put so much more into diagnostic engineering and mantainability. I guess AT&T and Lucent do similar stuff since I've seen a little of the AT&T specs for DEC stuff used by AT&T. Most of the minicomputer companies seemed to skimp on the diags compared to DEC. Their remote diag console in the 11/70 really amazed me for a mini. Geez. Engineers just want to bully the poor old technicians because they can. 8-) > > > > > -tony > > > Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 22 20:06:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Have dinosaur - need paper. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991122200614.22bfb22e@mailhost.intellistar.net> I knew that would get your attention! I picked up an old HP 7245B printer/ plotter that uses thermal roll paper with tractor feed holes on the edges and a notch at the top of each page. Does anyone know where I can get paper like that? I don't know the HP part nuber for it but I do remember that they also sold the same kind of paper except it was fan fold instead of rolled. I can use the fan fold stuff in a pinch. Thanks, Joe From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 22 18:09:30 1999 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit In-Reply-To: <3839CC70.F37230E1@softstar.it> Message-ID: <003b01bf3547$0422c180$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> > Tony Duell wrote: > > IIRC, these units either had 2 Qume 8" floppy drives or one > floppy drive > > and a Micropolis 1203 hard disk with the Micropolis > controller board on top. > > Mine is the 2 Qume floppy type. Never saw the one with the > HD, but I remember > reding it ran some type of Unix. > > I had one of these a long time ago...it was called an 8560 Microprocessor Development System. The machine I had was in a similar case to the 8501, but inside was a LSI 11 CPU board (original DEC, as I remember), and non Q-Bus backplane that Tek devised that could accept Tek-made memory and peripheral boards. The machine that I had had a Micropolis 8" harddisk (can't remember the model), and a Qume DT-8 8" floppy drive. The Micropolis drive sounded like a jet airplane when it spun up, along with the really noisy fans in the cabinet itself. It was almost uncomfortably loud. I think the hard disk held a total of 35 Megabytes. The machine did run Tektronix-munged version of V7 Unix called TNIX. The intent of the machine was as a code development and emulation system for microprocessor system and software development. Tek added a whole number of different assemblers for many microprocessors...I remember there were cross assemblers for 8080, 8085, Z-80, 8086, 6800, 6809, 68000, 6502, and others. I actually used some of the assemblers to build bits for various microprocessor projects that I tinkered with at the time (mostly 6809). The 8650 had two (as I remember) RS232 serial ports on it. You could hook up terminals to both ports and have multiple sessions running. There was an emulator subsystem that could be connected into the system to allow emulation under control of the TNIX environment. As I remember, the emulator was another unit about the size of the 8650 that connected in through a special interface, that provided an in-circuit emulation capability for a number of different processors. These development systems were used quite heavily within Tektronix for development of a number of products, including Tek's first foray into digital oscilloscopes, the Tektronix 11000-series machines. I wish I still had that old beast...I ended up giving it away to someone who seemed to want it more than I did at the time...I was getting ready to move, and gave it away rather than moving it. It was a fun machine to tinker with. I remember once that I tried putting the source to 'rogue' on it and trying to compile it...never got it to compile properly. I think the compiler was not the standard 'cc' compiler as I recall, and it had some internal statically allocated tables that would overflow when trying to compile 'big' stuff. The machine wasn't really intended for Unix development work, so I don't think much effort was made to make the Unix environment anything more than an interface for the emulation and cross-assembler capabilities of the system. Another memory: When Tek scrapped the MDP group (the Microprocessor Development Products) that made the 8650 and other development products) a bunch of those old Micropolis 8" drives showed up at the Tek country store. I got a few of 'em. Interesting drives. I managed to go through the Tektronix engineering stock microfiche file and find data on the interface to the Micropolis controller that piggybacked on top of the drive electronics. A simple parallel interface, similar to SCSI, but quite a time before SCSI existed. At the time, Tek these wonderful little systems called "Board Buckets". Board Bucket systems were designed internally by a group that was part of MDP. They were a small aluminum chassis with a backplane (designed by Tek), an external power supply box, and a whole slew of different boards that could be plugged in. I recall that the original board bucket systems were used as part of the development of the Tek 4051 computer. There were CPU boards for the Motorola 6800, 6809, and I believe 8085, Z-80, and perhaps even 68000. There were static and dynamic RAM boards, PROM boards, an EPROM programmer board, a 300-baud modem board, a video interface (using, I think, the TI chip used for the video section in the TI 99/4), a floppy disk controller, an 8-port serial board, and more. Anyway, I had a number of board bucket systems that I built up from parts as machines to play with. Anyway, I ended up building an interface for the old Micropolis drive that would plug into the Board Bucket, and ended up writing a device driver for OS-9 that would allow it to talk to the Micropolis drive! I had a 6809-based board bucket that had two 5 1/4" single sided, double-density floppy drives, this 35 Megabyte Micropolis hard disk, an 8-port I/O board, 64K of RAM, and a 1 Megabyte RAM disk that I also hacked together. It was a very amazing system for the time. I still have a lot of the board bucket stuff...but alas, I think that I threw away the hard disk drives as part of cleaning up before yet another move, and all of the OS-9 stuff is long since lost. OS-9 was a really cool OS from my recollection..I had a great deal of fun tinkering with it...that is, until I ended up building a Tektronix 6130...Tek's National 32016-based Unix (UTek) system from parts...then I had a *real* computer running a real variant of the only *real* Unix (4.2 BSD). The machine had a whopping Megabyte of RAM, two serial ports, and a Micropolis 1302 20MB ST-506 drive, and a 5 1/4" half-height floppy drive. As soon as my 6130 was up and running, my interest in all the old OS-9 stuff pretty much went by the wayside. Well...I guess I've done two things here...one...show how old I am, and two, show how much nostalgia I have for those 'good old days'. Sorry if my ramblings bored anyone. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 18:06:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: <199911222304.SAA06303@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 22, 99 06:04:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4160 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/3494734c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 18:09:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit In-Reply-To: <3839CC70.F37230E1@softstar.it> from "Enrico Badella" at Nov 23, 99 00:06:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 940 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/65f2ff65/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 18:49:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit In-Reply-To: <003b01bf3547$0422c180$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Nov 22, 99 04:09:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4281 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/66858cb5/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 18:30:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:05:23 -0500 (EST)) References: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Actually, DEC used over-the-edge cabling on an early minicomputer, and > abandoned it because it was LESS reliable than backplane connection, > and also made the machines much harder to service. > > Reference: _Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design_ Bill Pechter wrote: > A great book... but wrong on this one. > > The hp stuff had one over the edge interconnect cable of less than 10 > inches. > > The DEC 11/40 (45,50,55,70, etc) in the BA11-F cabinet (the worst > offender) had about 1/3 to 3/4 of an inch of ribbon cables (thickness) > running through the cable trough an often popping off the Berg connector > at the top of the Hex, Quad or Dual board (most had no locking ears on > the connector. Yup, the backplane is more reliable as over the top > connectors, but between board cables (RH11, RH70, Cache, etc) were my > biggest pain in the @#$%^ at DEC). The 11/780 was a lot better with the > exception of the lousy SBI cables that were failure prone and a bitch to > troubleshoot. I'm not talking about I/O cables that are many feet long between a card and an external device, nor cables under two inches between just a few boards in the same backplane. I'm talking about using over-the-edge cabling for bussing signals between many cards in the same backplane, and that's what I was referring to the book about. This was done in the PDP-6, IIRC, and they decided that it was a maintenance nightmare. If HP somehow made this scheme work reliably and somehow kept it from being a headache to troubleshoot, I'd be interested in hearing how they did it. Obviously HP must not have thought it was a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 22 18:58:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:40 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) Message-ID: <199911230058.TAA18181@world.std.com> <> > ...And you folks make fun of old DEC Field Service guys 8-( <> <> No, the OLD field service guys were great. (At least, many of them <> were.) I had the honor of working with a number of the old guard Field engineers that knew the pointy end of a soldering iron from a scope probe. There were few left by the late 80s that could still setup flight times for the hammers on the big printers or setup a unibus crate. Then there were the new kids that we wouldn't let have more than basic screwdrivers. Allison From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 22 19:25:22 1999 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003d01bf3551$9cfccea0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> Tony wrote: Re: Tektronix 85xx development systems > Yes, there are various versions of this, mostly somewhat > similar. I think > one of mine claims to be an 8550 (and I think that's the name > for the 2 > boxes together). > Could be right...maybe it was 8550 not 8560, tough to remember. > > > > The machine I had was in a similar case to the 8501, but inside was > > a LSI 11 CPU board (original DEC, as I remember), and non > Q-Bus backplane > > that Tek devised that could accept Tek-made memory and > peripheral boards. > > Yep. The bus is electrically very close to Q-bus, but of course the > connectors are totally different.. I remember being frustrated once finding a Q-bus memory card at the country store in the hopes of using it on the system, and then having someone there tell me that the 8560 was not Q-bus compatible. Didn't know if it was electrical or mechanical incompatibilities. > > > The machine that I had had a Micropolis 8" harddisk (can't remember > > the model), and a Qume DT-8 8" floppy drive. The Micropolis > > drive sounded like a jet airplane when it spun up, along with the > > really noisy fans in the cabinet itself. It was almost > uncomfortably > > loud. > > > > I think the hard disk held a total of 35 Megabytes. The > machine did run > > Exactly. A Micropolis 1203. I know it reasonably well, having > repaired > them from time to time. > I was pretty enamored with the drives at the time...they did seem to be really reliable. I remember Tek's first use of these drives. Tektronix built a graphics workstation VERY early on...long before Sun existed...perhaps just after Xerox and their early graphical machines. There were visions of selling these things, but Tek's management squashed the idea. The machine was called Magnolia. It had a large (19"?) monochrome (white phosphor), a fairly high resolution monochrome frame buffer (perhaps something like 1024x768), a keyboard & mouse, and ran a windowed operating system that I think used Smalltalk as the development environment, and some form of Unix kernel as the OS. The Micropolis drive was used in the machine. Don't know what the CPU was...I think it was some custom bit-slice based machine. I recall that it was quite fast. The machine was built on a pedastal, with the HD in the bottom of the pedastal, and the CPU, memory and framebuffer higher in the pedastal, and the monitor & keyboard up top. Similar to the pedastal-mounted Tek DVST graphics terminals like the 4014. Anyway, they number of in-house prototypes that they built had major problems with the HD's crashing, because people had a habit of swinging their feet while sitting at the machine, repeatedly thumping the pedastal...and the vibration would cause HDA crashes. Apparently this was further aggravated by the fact that the HD's were rather picky about temperature, and the pedastal didn't afford very good cooling for the drive...overheating was a problem. I saw one of these beasts in operation, probably sometime around 1976. It was truly amazing at the time! Had Tek decided to market these machines, and done a good job of it, they could have beat folks like PERQ, Sun, and others to the 'windowed Unix workstation' market. > > Tektronix-munged version of V7 Unix called TNIX. The intent of the > > I thought TNIX needed an 11/23 CPU card (which was normal on > the hard disk > versions IIRC). I could be wrong about the LSI-11...perhaps it was an 11/23. I don't know my 11 stuff very well...something seems to recall a "J-11" chipset that made up the CPU? Was that the 11/23, or LSI 11? > > > have multiple sessions running. There was an emulator subsystem > > that could be connected into the system to allow emulation under > > control of the TNIX environment. As I remember, the emulator was > > another unit about the size of the 8650 that connected in through > > a special interface, that provided an in-circuit emulation > capability > > Mine has a few cards in the second box (the one not > containing the PDP11 > or drives) that are an In-Circuit Emulator for the TMS9905. > Yup...that's exactly how I remember... > Re: Micropolis Drive interface > Yes. I have a reasonable amount of data on these drives. The > bare drive > (without the controller) was used in the PERQ 2T1, which is > where I first > came across it. > Really? Didn't know that these drives were used in PERQ machines. I remember when PERQ came out with their first machine. A big demo was put on for the Tektronix Scientific Computer Center staff (of which I was a part). PERQ came in and showed their machine. I remember thinking how it seemed like the old Tek Magnolia (which predated the PERQ by a few years, as I recall) seemed like it was as good as the PERQ. I always thought Tek was really dumb for now following on with Magnolia. Anyway, the thing I thought was so cool about the PERQ was the writable control store. Pretty amazing. > The bare drive has a 50 pin interface connector. Basically, > the interface > is 8 data lines, 2 address lines, strobe, etc to load > cylinder and head > numbers, control various drive functions, etc. And a seperate 'raw' > datastream for the actual data. > I didn't have any data about the bard drive interface, all the data I had was for the Micropolis formatter board. > The controller board sits on top of the drive and gives you a nice > formatted interface to the host. It converts between the raw > data from > the drive and nice 8 bit bytes for the host. I can't remember > much about > that, As I remember, there was a special jumper block on the formatter board that selected the number of bytes/sector...and I needed 256 bytes/sector for my OS-9 driver, and the drives were shipped with the jumper block configured for 512 bytes/sector. I did some serious reverse-engineering to figure out how to change the jumper block to allow for 256 byte/sector operation. I remember feeling quite proud of myself when I wired up a new jumper block and tried it, and low and behold, it worked! Rick From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 22 19:27:42 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems Message-ID: <199911230127.RAA19363@shell1.aracnet.com> >> I had the following results when depositing 7777 to the memory. >> >> Memory locations: xxx0 - xxx3 don't save anything >> Memory locations: xxx4 - xxx7 save 7760 > >OK, on the G227 card there's a pair of 8251 decoders at locations E46 and >E39 that decode the lowest 3 address lines, along with the Read H signal. >E46 handles locations xxx0-xxx3 and E39 handles xxx4-xxx7 (at least if Unfortunatly I won't be able to look into this until I get off work tonite, or tomorrow before work. If nothing else I'll try and hit the books tonite and get some of the preliminary research on this done. BTW, does anyone know of a way to read the TIFF's on Highgate on a UNIX box, for when I don't have the paper copies of the Maintenance manual handy, but have a chance to do a little reading? It would be nice if XV can handle them, but it only seems to be able to display the first page. >> Also step 6 tells me to check the resistance of diodes FSA2501. Um, >> someone mind explaining how to do this exactly? Beware, I don't have the >Then for each diode pack, check for diode action [1] between pin 1 >(common cathode) on the chip and pins 3,12,2,5,8,7,11,9 separately (8 >tests). Then do the same between pin 14 (common anode) and >3,12,2,5,8,7,11,9 (8 more tests). Terrific! This is exactly the info I was looking for! I'll have to double check tonite, and redo my readings, but I think the core board is OK. >HOWEVER. Diodes are non-linear components. It's not meaningful to talk >about the forward resistance unless you specify the current that was used >to measure it. Different meters (and even the same meter on different >ranges) can give very different results. My guess is that the figures >given in 4.7.1 in the manual relate to a particular type of meter (the >Triplett Model 310 mentioned in Table 4.1?), and you might get very >different results on a working board. This and the pinout above look to explain my problems with checking the FSA2501's. I'm showing about .8 MegaOhm's one direction, and infinite the other direction. I'm using a Fluke 77III Digital Multimeter to take the readings. That's so far off from the ranges given in the manual, that I was fairly sure I was doing something wrong. After all I think the manual says something like 25 Ohms, while I'm getting .8 MegaOhm's. I still find that a little hard to believe. This morning I went so far as to try and check out ALL the X-Y lines and Sense-Inhibit lines running through the core. I'm fairly sure the core plane itself is intact. Thanks for all the great info Tony! I'm starting to think I might just be able to get this fixed. Zane From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 22 19:42:34 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Great Find Today Message-ID: <003e01bf3554$04895fa0$46711fd1@jrkeysppt> A co-worker came and placed a complete copy of Windows 1.0 on my desk today. Wow it has all the paperwork nothing was mailed in. The manuals are in great shape as is the 5 1/4 diskettes ( I will be backing them up to the zip drive or cd) and the box is in fair shape with small signs of wear. Also got 6 manuals today, one was a service manual for the PC40-III commodore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991122/4c799a22/attachment.html From west at tseinc.com Mon Nov 22 19:39:05 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) References: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> Eric wrote... > I'm not talking about I/O cables that are many feet long between a card and > an external device, nor cables under two inches between just a few boards > in the same backplane. > > I'm talking about using over-the-edge cabling for bussing signals between > many cards in the same backplane, and that's what I was referring to the > book about. This was done in the PDP-6, IIRC, and they decided that it > was a maintenance nightmare. If HP somehow made this scheme work reliably > and somehow kept it from being a headache to troubleshoot, I'd be interested > in hearing how they did it. Obviously HP must not have thought it was > a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today. As a matter of fact, HP did virtually the same thing as you mention above as a matter of course on the 21MX line. Take a look at the memory extender units and the I/O extender units. Each was a separate rackmount card cage to extend either the memory or I/O backplane and they ran at exactly the same speed as the main bus (ex: memory access time was identical in either main memory cage or extender cage). I believe the cable length limit was 15 feet. I doubt this was problematic because it was introduced sometime around the early 70's and followed through to the end of the F series at least which was approximately the mid 80's. And if the memory or I/O extender isn't quite the situation you're talking about, then the memory section of any HP 21MX M,E, or F certainly is. What about that daisy chain cable in the memory section that connects all the memory cards (and if you're using FCS you have up to 3 ribbon cables, not just one). HP 21MX's a DEC me-too copy? That's just ridiculous. I have yet to see a DEC that split the backplane the way HP did on the MX line. Without that fundamental change you would be stuck in the "gee I've got to remove some memory cards to fit in my extra I/O cards" scenario. Not to mention the optimizations you can do by having a separate bus for memory vs. I/O. Also, I'm not familiar with mid-time period PDP's (read: Unibus, but hey, we're talking 8's anyway), but I don't recall seeing one that had several loader roms that you could choose from via the front panel, and the loaders would be patched for I/O addresses via the switch register at the press of a single button. Sure, on an 8 you could put in a hard wired rom board, but there goes a precious slot and a hefty amount of current draw. The 21MX's also have an interesting technique of varying the microinstruction cycle time to speed up certain control section operations. HP made it clear that users were encouraged to microprogram the system due to the wealth of documentation and software they provided for doing so. Does the PDP-8 support remote IPL? And these are just a few trivial issues, not fundamental design ones (of which there are many). Then talk about flexibility, look at the 21MX K series - basically built to customer spec! And by the way on a different thread, WCS and UCS was a very common option on HP 21MX's, and on at least one model it was built in. I'm not going to pursue the discussion about HP's being "cool" or not any further - I feel very strongly about the subject and might lose a few friends if I took up the argument seriously :). Dont get me wrong - I love my DECs too. They have their own things I like better than HP. But don't say the old HP line is just a PDP-8 wannabe/knockoff. Jay West From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 19:53:26 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 23, 1999 0:30:46 am" Message-ID: <199911230154.UAA06636@pechter.dyndns.org> > I'm not talking about I/O cables that are many feet long between a card and > an external device, nor cables under two inches between just a few boards > in the same backplane. > > I'm talking about using over-the-edge cabling for bussing signals between > many cards in the same backplane, and that's what I was referring to the > book about. This was done in the PDP-6, IIRC, and they decided that it > was a maintenance nightmare. If HP somehow made this scheme work reliably > and somehow kept it from being a headache to troubleshoot, I'd be interested > in hearing how they did it. Obviously HP must not have thought it was > a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today. The answer is get the machine down to 6 boards in less than a foot of length with one aproximately 50 pin cable. Worked fine. They built a nice clean maintainable box. The PDP6 was a transistorized machine with much more cables needed than the HP mini. We're talking an early to mid 70's design vs. a late 70's to early 80's design. Apples and oranges. The hp looked a lot cleaner than the 11/44 or 11/70 and seemed much smaller in number of boards and simpler in layout of signals. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 22 19:58:16 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Did the list change? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991122195816.020ece30@pc> I've been unable to receive anything from the CCC listproc for about a month. When I send to the listproc, I don't even get a response. My mail unblocked for a few days at the beginning of this after we tweaked something at my ISP, but then it stopped again, and now I'm not sure what's the root of the problem. I tried to get a response fom Derek Peschel but he must be busy or missed my message. Does anyone know an admin at U-Wash who might be able to tell me why the listproc is rejecting mail addressed to me? An alternative mailing address for me is mr128@yahoo.com . - John From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 20:00:43 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 23, 1999 0: 6:50 am" Message-ID: <199911230200.VAA06689@pechter.dyndns.org> > > What pissed me off no end was the customer (Naval Air Propulsion, > > Trenton) who called me to ask me to change U41 on the TE16 logic and > > write board because his tape drive wouldn't go on line. > > Why? Seems like a pefectly logical thing to ask for. You'd have hated me > when I _insisted_ that DEC supply me with some overvoltage protection > diodes for one of their monitors (damaged IIRC by a mains surge). No, I > wasn't going to pay for new monitors, or even new PSU boards. They could > supply the part that I was darn well asking for. Fortunately, the system > manager of the VAXcluster where this happened backed me all the way... > > -tony Well, can you imagine the paperwork I'd have to do to special order the IC's (and he was a 16x5 DECservice site and management would be wondering about call open time, escallation, outages) and since I had the board in my hand in less than two minutes and had it to his site and installed in under half an hour it's a bit unfair to demand chip swap over board swap on this occasion so he could get his jollies... The cost to him for the board over chips was ZERO since the Federal Government paid for full service on the site. As far as supplying parts insted of you paying for monitors... I think they should've been supplied. And I don't think DEC wold have a problem with that. I've done chip and component level work rarely and I'm probably not in your league, but I fix vt100 video boards with a cap and a diode from Radio Shack... total cost $2.00 or less. However, I wasn't going to have to have an open call on my log for three weeks while I waited for parts just because an engineer wanted to bust my er-chips. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 20:02:09 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Great Find Today In-Reply-To: <003e01bf3554$04895fa0$46711fd1@jrkeysppt> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Nov 22, 1999 7:42:34 pm" Message-ID: <199911230202.VAA06717@pechter.dyndns.org> > A co-worker came and placed a complete copy of Windows 1.0 on my desk today. > Wow it has all the paperwork nothing was mailed in. The manuals are in great > shape as is the 5 1/4 diskettes ( I will be backing them up to the zip > drive or cd) and the box is in fair shape with small signs of wear. Is it really 1.0 or 1.0.3. I thought 1.0.3 was the first real "Working" version. I've run it on an AT&T6300 here. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 22 20:16:26 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) In-Reply-To: <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> from Jay West at "Nov 22, 1999 7:39: 5 pm" Message-ID: <199911230216.VAA06742@pechter.dyndns.org> > And by the way on a different thread, WCS and UCS was a very common option > on HP 21MX's, and on at least one model it was built in. > > I'm not going to pursue the discussion about HP's being "cool" or not any > further - I feel very strongly about the subject and might lose a few > friends if I took up the argument seriously :). Dont get me wrong - I love > my DECs too. They have their own things I like better than HP. But don't say > the old HP line is just a PDP-8 wannabe/knockoff. > > Jay West Can you point me to some more info on the HP's. I learned basic on HP2000c's but I'd like to understand the hardware design on 'em. I guess minicomputers can kind of become a religious issue with the DEC vs. DG, HP vs. DEC wars... I worked for DEC, taught for a while for Concurrent (Perkin-Elmer/Interdata/Masscomp) and Pyramid and did support for Alliant and service on IBM Series 1's. All I can say is the mini's were very diverse and very culturally different (as were the companies). I figure it's a topic for one hell of a history dissertation or a book. Alliant was full of the folks from DG and DEC and that was quite interesting. I found some interesting similarities between Interdata/Perkin Elmer's Multiplexer (MUX) Bus and DEC's Unibus. Rumor has it some ex-Interdata folks went to work for DEC and took some ideas with them (and un-Muxed the mux bus to get the Unibus). There was some bad blood between the two companies. DEC PDP8's (8E and 8A) did the chip insertion of the Perkin Elmer boards, but they supposedly hid the 8's behind fake Perkin Elmer front panels at one point so no one would know they had DEC hardware in house. (and the Litton tester had a uVax in it... and there was a PDP11 in another big $ piece of test equipment...) The only thing the mini field service engineers usually had in common was a serious dislike for the white shirt, blue suit, red tie IBM mainframe CE's who wouldn't even answer a polite "Good evening..." comment. (I was later told by my CE when I worked for IBM was that at one time there was a corporate edict which could get an IBMer fired for something like fraternization 8-) Still -- I think the mainframe guys did look down their noses at us mini guys like we looked down at copier techs... (Why was it that printer and copier techs are looked down at by senior techies in almost any department... The hardest stuff to fix is always the mechanical and servo based stuff, disks, tapes, printers -- and the glory always goes to the CPU weenie with the biggest mips.) Bill an ex-mini generalist who served as the backup tape specialist. 9 tracks forever! --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Nov 22 20:20:25 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP's -- slick stuff, high price. Great mechanicals In-Reply-To: <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991122212025.0097acf0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Eric Smith may have mentioned these words: >Obviously HP must not have thought it was >a particularly great technique, since they generally aren't using it today. I disagree with the "obviously" part of things... Zip chips were a great idea, but they're not in use anymore, as SMD parts offer greater density (at the expense of replacability - you can socket a zip chip, but SMD memory is swapped by the stick nowadays) EPROM's were a great idea and were (and still are) in use for a *long* time, but Flash is easier to use in the field or at the customer's site (not to mention flash-upgradable BIOS's in PC's are a nice feature). Model T's (both the car & the computer) set many, many records, yet very few of either are in full use today because they've been superceded by newer/faster/smaller equipment (note: "better" is not in that list.. ;-) Just because something isn't in widespread use today, doesn't mean it wasn't (or isn't) a great idea. (Of course, a corollary to that might be: "Because WinBlows is so widespread and is in use today, it must be a great product!" Hogwash.) As always, IMHO... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 22 20:06:37 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) In-Reply-To: <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> (west@tseinc.com) References: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <19991123020637.30751.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jay West" wrote: > HP 21MX's a DEC me-too copy? That's just ridiculous. I have yet to see a DEC > that split the backplane the way HP did on the MX line. Without that > fundamental change you would be stuck in the "gee I've got to remove some > memory cards to fit in my extra I/O cards" scenario. You certainly didn't have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8 to add I/O cards. Or, for that matter, from the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-7, and PDP-9, which I also claim to be the intellectual forebears of the HP 21xx. Where on earth did you get that idea? > But don't say the old HP line is just a PDP-8 wannabe/knockoff. In terms of the instruction-set architecture, it clearly was derived from the DEC 18-bit and 12-bit architectures. Whether the machine was microprogrammed, had writable control store, or had variable-length cycle times, have nothing to do with whether the instruction set architecture is a clone of the DEC architecture. None of these ideas were original with either DEC or HP. All of those ideas were used in various DEC machines, although none of the 12-bitters were microcoded. I didn't say that there was anything WRONG with cloning DEC architecture, or that HP didn't innovate around the edges of it. Why invent something completely new and different, when you can copy and tweak existing successful designs? There's nothing wrong or sinister about that. When you buy this year's automobile, it is full of features and designs copied from hundreds of past models of automobiles from many different manufacturers. The 2100A/S added more bells and whistles to the original 2116 design, and the 21MX machines add yet more. But that doesn't in any way make the 21xx instruction set architecture any less of a decendent of the DEC machines. And it's not surprising, since HP used a lot of PDP-8s before they decided to get into the computer business themselves. As is usual around here, (e.g., the flame war over the word "obsolete"), people seem to associate way to much emotional baggage with simple terms and phrases. From aek at spies.com Mon Nov 22 20:51:04 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) Message-ID: <199911230251.SAA03545@spies.com> "Can you point me to some more info on the HP's. I learned basic on HP2000c's but I'd like to understand the hardware design on 'em. " Jeff Moffatt's site is a good place to start http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/ From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 22 20:10:26 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Looking to benchmark my 8/S. Message-ID: <044801bf3557$e8af6960$de6465cc@default> If anyone out there is running FOCAL,1969 (standalone) and can send me the amount of time it takes their PDP-8 to come back with the result of these functions(not including the teletype time) I would appreciate it. I have the 8/S clocked at: TYPE 1067^56 5 seconds TYPE FSQT(1067^56) 4 seconds TYPE FSQT(123^789) 25 seconds. This is a quick test and I will try some other functions..... I am going to try this on the 8I.. I would appreciate the results from a straight-8, and an 8/E. BTW: This is a great "light bulb" test. john From west at tseinc.com Mon Nov 22 21:25:30 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) References: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> <19991123020637.30751.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <00b301bf3562$656be460$0101a8c0@jay> Eric wrote... > You certainly didn't have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8 to add I/O > cards. Or, for that matter, from the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-7, and PDP-9, which > I also claim to be the intellectual forebears of the HP 21xx. Where on earth > did you get that idea? Yes, you do have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8 to add I/O cards, *IF* your backplane is full. So in many architectures there was always a decision to be made about having too many io cards for the memory amount you wanted or vice versa. Of course, with the -8 you can always add another internal backplane, but that's hardly an elegant solution. > In terms of the instruction-set architecture, it clearly was derived > from the DEC 18-bit and 12-bit architectures. I know both instruction sets well (albeit HP's much better). I don't find the 21MX instructions to be any more or less like the -8 than most any other machine out there. I suspect that the 21MX set is similar not because of the -8 being a "forefather", but because most instruction sets have a large number of similarities on any set of machines (except Pick virtual assembler, that is truely a unique animal). I just can't agree that the 21MX instruction set was derived from the 12 bit DEC stuff. There's nothing unique about the DEC set that is in the HP set. > the 21xx instruction set architecture any less of a decendent of the DEC > machines. And it's not surprising, since HP used a lot of PDP-8s before > they decided to get into the computer business themselves. Ok, I have to challenge you here. Other than basic instruction set similarity, do you have any historical evidence that the 21xx instruction set was derived from the DEC machines? I'd love to hear it....I'm always willing to change my position in the face of facts. But just based on instruction set similarities? Hum.... > As is usual around here, (e.g., the flame war over the word "obsolete"), > people seem to associate way to much emotional baggage with simple terms > and phrases. Ok, so I'm touchy about my treasured HP's . But only because it seemed you said they were directly derived from 12 bit decs, and I have not now or ever seen any evidence of that. I really didn't intend to start a HP vs. DEC war. I think they're both great machines. But don't say my machine is only great because yours is! :) Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 21:36:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) In-Reply-To: <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Nov 22, 99 07:39:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/f16a39af/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 21:41:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: <199911230200.VAA06689@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 22, 99 09:00:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2104 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/61e2d7a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 21:18:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit In-Reply-To: <003d01bf3551$9cfccea0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Nov 22, 99 05:25:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5603 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/954b3bd1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 21:46:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) In-Reply-To: <199911230216.VAA06742@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 22, 99 09:16:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1089 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/f688882d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 22 21:25:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: <199911230127.RAA19363@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 22, 99 05:27:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/a2320d48/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 23 01:05:55 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: FW: Used PDP Equipment. In-Reply-To: <19991123001902.10768.00001374@ng-fm1.aol.com> References: <19991123001902.10768.00001374@ng-fm1.aol.com> Message-ID: I have no clue what this guy is selling. The fact that he's posting from an AOL account bothers me a bit. Still, he may have something of interest. Contact him directly if you're curious. -=-=- -=-=- On 23 Nov 1999 05:19:02 GMT, in comp.os.rsts you wrote: >>From: reddogno1@aol.com (Reddog no1) >>Newsgroups: comp.os.rsts >>Subject: Used PDP Equipment. >>Lines: 3 >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com >>X-Admin: news@aol.com >>Date: 23 Nov 1999 05:19:02 GMT >>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com >>Message-ID: <19991123001902.10768.00001374@ng-fm1.aol.com> >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.rsts:19 >> >>Does anyone know who would like to purchase used PDP Equipment? >>Please reply to Reddogno1@aol.com >>Thank You. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 23 00:42:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) In-Reply-To: <00b301bf3562$656be460$0101a8c0@jay> (west@tseinc.com) References: <199911222205.RAA06205@pechter.dyndns.org> <19991123003046.30359.qmail@brouhaha.com> <008301bf3553$87d67600$0101a8c0@jay> <19991123020637.30751.qmail@brouhaha.com> <00b301bf3562$656be460$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <19991123064205.31958.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Yes, you do have to remove memory cards from a PDP-8 to add I/O cards, *IF* > your backplane is full. No, you don't. You've obviously never used a PDP-8. Maybe you're talking about an 8/e, 8/f, 8/m, or 8/a. > Of course, with the -8 you can always add another internal > backplane, but that's hardly an elegant solution. No, that's not true either. There's a finite limit to the number of backplanes you can use. But that only applies to Omnibus 8s as well. > I know both instruction sets well (albeit HP's much better). I don't find > the 21MX instructions to be any more or less like the -8 than most any other > machine out there. I suspect that the 21MX set is similar not because of > the -8 being a "forefather", but because most instruction sets have a large > number of similarities on any set of machines (except Pick virtual > assembler, that is truely a unique animal). I just can't agree that the 21MX > instruction set was derived from the 12 bit DEC stuff. There's nothing > unique about the DEC set that is in the HP set. Very few machines other than the DEC machines and those inspired by them use the same sort of memory addressing scheme with small pages, a bit in the instruction to select between a global page and the current page, and a bit for indirection. The indirect bit appeared by itself in earlier machines, but usually they had a much different mechanism for maximizing the utility of the addressing bits in the instruction word. HP and DG copied it, along with much else from the DEC 12 and 18 bit machines. Similarly with the "microprogrammed" operate instructions. AFAIK, DEC was the first vendor to use that concept in a mass-produced electronic computer, but they were copied by several vendors. > Ok, I have to challenge you here. Other than basic instruction set > similarity, do you have any historical evidence that the 21xx instruction > set was derived from the DEC machines? Only the anecdotal evidence that HP used many PDP-8s in house before they decided to enter the computer business themselves. But really, are you trying to claim that the HP designers were NOT familiar with the PDP-8 family, and designed something that purely by coincidence happened to be very architecturally similar? That seems like an incredibly unlikely scenario. Even HP doesn't generally have such a terrible case of NIH syndrome as to completely ignore what the competition is doing. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Tue Nov 23 02:17:38 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8501 Data Management Unit References: Message-ID: <383A4DA2.B988FEAF@softstar.it> Tony Duell wrote: > > I have 2 systems. One of them is an 11/03, has 2 floppies and runs a > much-hacked RT11 (TekDOS or something like that). The other is an 11/23, > has the hard disk, and runs T-nix (Unix-like OS). It also ran a more standard version of RT-11. One of the Tek field support guys had a floppy of it and I made a copy. I looked thru my old 8" disks and indeed I found 2 floppies labeled RT11; during the lunch break I would reboot the system with these floppies and play adventure. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 22 03:42:24 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request..." (Nov 22, 8:19) References: <19991122081935.25405.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <9911220942.ZM14314@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 22, 8:19, Eric Smith wrote: > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Incidentally, back when Apple ][s were current it was generally claimed > > in the UK that if you plugged anything but a colourcard into slot 7 you > > would do serious damage to the machine. Looking at the schematics I can't > > see a reason why this will do any damage, but I've never had the courage > > to try it. Anyone know anything about this? I remember being told that, and remember the sticker over Slot 7 (one of my Europluses still has the sticker) but I don't know if there was any cause for concern. I think the purpose of the sticker was simply to ensure people left Slot 7 free in case a colour card was added later. > Probably just an urban legend, like the ones about how all your memory > chips need to be from the same vendor, and how they must all be the > same speed, and how you shouldn't use 120 ns DRAMs in a computer designed > for 150 ns DRAMs, and similar BS. Probably. The only things different about Slot 7 are pins 19 and 35 -- which carry sync and color-ref signals from the motherboard to Slot 7, but are unconnected on the other slots. According to the circuit diagram, anyway. Unless some card used those pins for some non-standard purpose, it shouldn't matter. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yen111opp at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 06:10:49 1999 From: yen111opp at hotmail.com (yen111opp@hotmail.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store Message-ID: <789.136258.90765@unknown> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/966e6bbe/attachment.html From sports111opp at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 08:17:54 1999 From: sports111opp at hotmail.com (sports111opp@hotmail.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store Message-ID: <310.871530.797855@unknown> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/1fd7d4c1/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 23 07:55:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: HP stuff (was HP's not cool) In-Reply-To: <19991123064205.31958.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I'd say everyone should look at the TX0/1/2 and other earlyb solid state (or mostly so) computers to see where some ideas come from. The rest of the machines represent ideas that were adopted, CDC160 (or was it cray?) was the first truely little machine, the PDP-8 embodied that. The idea of a monolithic backplane is not uniquely DEC and so on. Allison From jfoust at foust.org Tue Nov 23 08:04:46 1999 From: jfoust at foust.org (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Did the list change? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991123080446.01c9bb70@pc> I resubscribed at a different domain that I own, so I'm back on the list and receiving messages. I'd like to figure out the problem with U-Wash not sending to threedee.com nonetheless. - John From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 23 08:38:32 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: List spammer traced Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991123063832.009404b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Our latest list spam has been traced. LARTs have been launched. I've also sent a query to CLASSICCMP's human contact asking if things can be configured to allow postings only from those who subscribe. It wouldn't stop a Really Determined spammer, but it would make them a lot easier to track down. We'll see what happens. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Nov 23 09:55:56 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Splitting TIFFs (was Re: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Tue, 23 Nov 1999 03:25:11 +0000 (GMT)" References: Message-ID: <199911231555.HAA76403@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > My guess is that tifftopnm (which is what I normally use) is only going > to extract the first page as well. Anybody got a utility to pull the tiff > apart into individual pages? Look for tiffsplit, which I think comes with libtiff (so if you built the PNM stuff with TIFF support, you may have it installed already). -Frank McConnell From jfoust at foust.org Tue Nov 23 10:37:58 1999 From: jfoust at foust.org (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: 50-year-old Aussie CSIRAC computer being restored Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991123103758.00eb4580@pc> Having just returned to the list, I'm not sure if this news made it here yet, but here's a few links to stories: - John From sports111opp at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 12:29:21 1999 From: sports111opp at hotmail.com (sports111opp@hotmail.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store Message-ID: <252.331807.498796@unknown> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/7bd61f37/attachment.html From rgarner at Brocade.COM Tue Nov 23 11:30:35 1999 From: rgarner at Brocade.COM (Robert Garner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) Message-ID: Sipke de Wal, I passed your concern about Beryllium Oxide to someone here. His response: The only danger is as mentioned below, dust which does not happen by accident. It is necessary to seriously grind or file the hard material to create dust. As long as you do not try to machine it or file it or break it up there is not problem. So, assemblers should be warned not to mistreat it, breaking grinding or filing it. When I use it I also use thermal compound to make a good thermal connection. This greasy substance also provides a measure of added protection because if the BEO were accidentally scratched or broken any small particles would become mixed into this greasy compound and not become airborne. It has the properties of: 1. a dielectric constant of about 6 for low capacitance 2. a very low thermal resistance for cooling If there is great fear of using it alumina can be substituted: 1. dielectric constant of 10 2. low thermal resistance but not as good as BEO. Ron Miller > -----Original Message----- > From: Sipke de Wal [SMTP:sipke@wxs.nl] > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:40 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) > > Beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Beryllium was mentioned here. Beryllium Oxide was used in the thermal > conduction stuff HF-transistors decades ago, but this ceramic stuff can > be quite lethal. If it breaks and you inhale a few microns of the dust > there off, lungcancer can almost be guarantied within a decade !!!! > > Stay away from BEO !!!!! > > Sipke de Wal > > > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > At -100 Celsius: Al, 241; Cu, 420, Ag, 432. Interestingly enough, at > these low > > > temperatures Beryllium is pretty good at 367. > > From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Nov 23 13:00:03 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) References: Message-ID: <383AE433.FE5E2C74@wxs.nl> The problem with ceramic materials (LIKE BEO) is that it fails in a britle manner and quite a few miniscule specks of dust may become airborne when it breaks (like a breaking glass window will often release small and large fragments). The main question is wheter you are prepared to take the risk, for it takes a very tiny amount in your lungs to become a problem. I Compare it to working with plutonium !!! Alas, I only wanted to warn those on the list who were not yet informed on the dangers of berylium-oxide (and metallic beryllium as I gathered from subsequent treads). Sipke de Wal "He who liveth in a BEO house shall not throw stones" Robert Garner wrote: > > Sipke de Wal, > > I passed your concern about Beryllium Oxide to someone here. > His response: > > The only danger is as mentioned below, dust which does not > happen by accident. It is necessary to seriously grind or file the hard > material to create dust. As long as you do not try to machine it or > file it or break it up there is not problem. > > So, assemblers should be warned not to mistreat it, breaking > grinding or filing it. > > When I use it I also use thermal compound to make a good > thermal connection. This greasy substance also provides > a measure of added protection because if the BEO were > accidentally scratched or broken any small particles would > become mixed into this greasy compound and not become airborne. > > It has the properties of: > 1. a dielectric constant of about 6 for low capacitance > 2. a very low thermal resistance for cooling > > If there is great fear of using it alumina can be substituted: > 1. dielectric constant of 10 > 2. low thermal resistance but not as good as BEO. > > Ron Miller > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sipke de Wal [SMTP:sipke@wxs.nl] > > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:40 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) > > > > Beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > Beryllium was mentioned here. Beryllium Oxide was used in the thermal > > conduction stuff HF-transistors decades ago, but this ceramic stuff can > > be quite lethal. If it breaks and you inhale a few microns of the dust > > there off, lungcancer can almost be guarantied within a decade !!!! > > > > Stay away from BEO !!!!! > > > > Sipke de Wal > > > > > > > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > > > At -100 Celsius: Al, 241; Cu, 420, Ag, 432. Interestingly enough, at > > these low > > > > temperatures Beryllium is pretty good at 367. > > > From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Nov 23 13:14:00 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store In-Reply-To: <252.331807.498796@unknown> Message-ID: <4.1.19991123140742.00a72560@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:29 PM 11/23/99 +0000, sports111opp@hotmail.com said something like: Could these guys have sent this as a vindictive attempt at getting back at us for your good attempt at LARTting them Bruce? If so, *really* LART them next time :-) But that Hotmail account helps to make them a bit invisible I think. BTW, you asked u.wash to try to limit access to the list only to those who are subscribers. I hope they don't take the simple route and simply bar any Hotmail-sourced messages from getting through. Some ClassicCmp subscribers could use Hotmail as a quick, simple email provider -especially if they're traveling, etc. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From spc at armigeron.com Tue Nov 23 13:38:54 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Did the list change? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991123080446.01c9bb70@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 23, 99 08:04:46 am Message-ID: <199911231939.OAA01179@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1129 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/304572de/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 23 14:35:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store Message-ID: <001501bf35f2$58a17fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> I use a hotmail account for situations as you've described. Just the other day, I got a chilly little notice from them indicating that they were about to purge a few of my files because I had a lot of stuff there. I had, on that day, received 76 new emails, of which 72 were spam. 6 of those were spam with sender addresses within HOTMAIL. I figure they can't be doing much to discourage spamming if they go right ahead and forward what they obviously recognize as having counterfeited their own domain into the sender address. Hotmail has a destination, i.e. abuse@hotmail.com, to which you're encouraged to send your complaints, particularly in the form of uncommented forwarded spam, complete with headers. Now, I don't know that they DO anything, but you'll get this neat little reply from them, indicating that they do a bunch of stuff to discourage spamming via their facilities. They also tell you that some folks counterfeit their domain as a sender address, and how you can tell it's a counterfeit address, etc. What I think would help would be if the domain from which spam originated were blocked from sending email, particularly for the larger concerns whose income/existent is dependent on large volumes of mail, etc, THEY would take steps to prevent it. If it were simply made impossible to send the same message to more than one destination address, that would help, as would disallowing sending the same message twice. I'm not an expert, and I don't doubt that the spammers will find another way to do the same thing. What disturbs me is that they're chewing up bandwidth that we're all eventually going to have to pay for in one way or another, most probably by paying for internet bandwidth the way we pay for long distance phone service. Now, that would help get rid of those annoying little 800KB "greeting cards" of which those little old ladies like to send thousands a day, but the spammers would still chew up the bandwidth. Regulation is an ugly thing, and it's not likely that the sort of regulation that people in the US come up with will help anything. They're always trying to legislate good sense, particularly the folks living near the San Andreas fault, who are apparently the world leaders in this. It's not their domain alone, however. The type of regulation that will come about as a result is likely to be the sort of regulation that folks like Adrianna Huffington promote, i.e. don't let anybody put anything out on the internet just in case my little kid might stumble into something I don't want him/her to see. They are overreacting, aren't they? Gawd! I have never run into a nudie by accident, and, quite frankly, I can't even find decent ones when I want to! Nevertheless, it would be nice to watch the halftime show at the superbowl and see them take the 100 worst spammers and slowly dip them into a solder pot. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Own Your Own Internet Store >Upon the date 12:29 PM 11/23/99 +0000, sports111opp@hotmail.com said >something like: > > > >Could these guys have sent this as a vindictive attempt at getting back at >us for your good attempt at LARTting them Bruce? If so, *really* LART them >next time :-) But that Hotmail account helps to make them a bit invisible >I think. BTW, you asked u.wash to try to limit access to the list only to >those who are subscribers. I hope they don't take the simple route and >simply bar any Hotmail-sourced messages from getting through. Some >ClassicCmp subscribers could use Hotmail as a quick, simple email provider >-especially if they're traveling, etc. > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Nov 23 13:42:13 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991123140742.00a72560@206.231.8.2> References: <252.331807.498796@unknown> Message-ID: >I think. BTW, you asked u.wash to try to limit access to the list only to >those who are subscribers. I hope they don't take the simple route and Its called a closed list, only subscribers can post. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 23 16:39:39 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store In-Reply-To: <001501bf35f2$58a17fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991123163939.232fbac6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, WONDERFULL! Joe At 01:35 PM 11/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >I use a hotmail account for situations as you've described. Just the other >day, I got a chilly little notice from them indicating that they were about From oajones at bright.net Tue Nov 23 15:22:22 1999 From: oajones at bright.net (O. Alan Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: List spammer traced References: <3.0.5.32.19991123063832.009404b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <383B058D.2FFCB20D@bright.net> Thanks Bruce, That SPAM torqued me off too! Good job. --Alan Bruce Lane wrote: > Our latest list spam has been traced. LARTs have been launched. > > I've also sent a query to CLASSICCMP's human contact asking if things can > be configured to allow postings only from those who subscribe. It wouldn't > stop a Really Determined spammer, but it would make them a lot easier to > track down. > > We'll see what happens. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." -- --Alan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 12:24:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request... In-Reply-To: <9911220942.ZM14314@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 22, 99 09:42:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 932 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/8146be9c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 15:44:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Splitting TIFFs (was Re: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems) In-Reply-To: <199911231555.HAA76403@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Nov 23, 99 07:55:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/01182410/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 23 16:29:55 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: Well thanks to the PDP-8/m, I'm finally getting around to trying to figure out how to use my Tek 465B scope. Unfortunatly according to my Dad the scope needs some work, I figure he should know as he retired from Tek. With his help I did finally get some readings, not quite what I'm looking for, but I'm fighting several obsticales. No manual, an apparently flakey scope and you *don't* even want to know what I'm using for probes (hint, they looked kitbashed, and I've had to extend the connectors to be able to take readings). End result, I'm pondering just going out and buying a new scope (which I'll be the first person to say is really, really stupid given my electronics abilities). Looking at what the recommended replacement for my scope is, I see it's a TDS220, and more than I want to spend. The recommended replacement for the scope listed in the PDP-8/e/f/m maintenance manual is a TDS210, still more than I really want to spend, but getting closer. Does anyone have any recommendations for good new scopes that would probably only be used for working on DEC gear (but you never know). Ease of use, and small size a big plus. Ideally something under $1000, or even better $800. Is Fry's a good place to get scopes? They've probably got the best selection in the area that I'm aware of. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 23 16:43:07 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Great Find Today References: <199911230202.VAA06717@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <009d01bf3604$1dc852e0$15711fd1@jrkeysppt> You are right it is 1.03 Update version ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Great Find Today > > A co-worker came and placed a complete copy of Windows 1.0 on my desk today. > > Wow it has all the paperwork nothing was mailed in. The manuals are in great > > shape as is the 5 1/4 diskettes ( I will be backing them up to the zip > > drive or cd) and the box is in fair shape with small signs of wear. > > Is it really 1.0 or 1.0.3. I thought 1.0.3 was the first real "Working" > version. > > I've run it on an AT&T6300 here. > > Bill > --- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. > From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Nov 23 16:43:38 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991123140742.00a72560@206.231.8.2> <252.331807.498796@unknown> Message-ID: <4.1.19991123174021.00a95d60@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:42 AM 11/23/99 -0800, Mike Ford said something like: >>I think. BTW, you asked u.wash to try to limit access to the list only to >>those who are subscribers. I hope they don't take the simple route and > >Its called a closed list, only subscribers can post. > Maybe after these incidents it'll be closed Mike, but it was rather clear that outsiders could post to the list. Several legitimate (on topic, that is) posts from folks who were refered to us with computing questions or stuff to offer came in during the past months. Spam crap rolled in too though . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From aek at spies.com Tue Nov 23 16:45:59 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:41 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <199911232245.OAA09163@spies.com> "Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST place I'd buy any test gear from. I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd be able to buy new in your price range. You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 23 16:47:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 22, 99 01:24:08 am Message-ID: >> I had the following results when depositing 7777 to the memory. >> >> Memory locations: xxx0 - xxx3 don't save anything >> Memory locations: xxx4 - xxx7 save 7760 >My guess is that eitehr E46 is faulty, or it's never being enabled. The >enable is applied to input D of the chip (pin 2) , from the gates in E34 >(74H10). This is not going to be hard to trace out. Found the chip, and assume I should test it with a Logic Probe and Pulser, with the data in the back I think I might be able to figure that out. One question, in looking through the pathetic little manual with the logic probe and pulser I have (not even sure why I have them, I've had it since the late 80's and never used them), it looks like the board needs to be in the system and powered up, as they get their power from the circuit. >to the entire card. You might look at E24 (8881) and E28 (384). These >chips are quad line drivers and receivers and it's possible for an entire I'm guessing the next step is to also take the logic probe to these, but I don't find any data on these chips... >Do you know if the CPU board is correctly handling data on the bottom 4 >lines? Since everything is open-collector, it's safe to try grounding (to >the system 0V rail) the MD lines during a read cycle to see if the CPU >sees them as asserted (everything is active low). And to monitor them >during a write cycle to see if the CPU can pull them low. Was hoping to look into this, but it took so long to figure out the O-scope, that I'm out of time today, gotta be at work in 15. Unfortunatly the next couple days are going to be busy so not sure how much time I'll have to work on this until Friday. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Nov 23 17:04:06 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911232245.OAA09163@spies.com> Message-ID: Actually, Fry's is often a good place to buy equipment if you buy the demo unit and make sure it's covered by the original warranty. I got my Tek TDS 210 that way, and got a substantial discount, to boot, even with sales tax thrown in. You gotta haggle a little, but it's worth it! -Mike Cheponis On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Al Kossow wrote: > "Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST > place I'd buy any test gear from. > > I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used > TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd > be able to buy new in your price range. > > You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 > From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 23 17:05:55 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911232305.PAA19335@civic.hal.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Well thanks to the PDP-8/m, I'm finally getting around to trying to figure > out how to use my Tek 465B scope. Unfortunatly according to my Dad the > scope needs some work, I figure he should know as he retired from Tek. Hi You can get manuals for these someplace. They are out there. The only thing that will truly be a problem on these 'scopes is the horizontal sweep rate switch. I understand that Tektronics doesn't make these any more. Other than that, they are suppose to be repairable. Also, you don't need to buy the most expensive probes. I have bought and used Pomona probes and they work just fine. It would be nice to have one of the newer sampling oscilloscopes but I find that a dual trace scope can do wonders. I limp along with a flaky Leader scope. Dwight From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Nov 23 17:04:46 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <19991123.170454.72.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> My sentiments exactly. I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition, and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice* 465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway). On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow writes: > "Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST > place I'd buy any test gear from. > > I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used > TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd > be able to buy new in your price range. > > You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 23 19:16:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991123191659.50bfbfb4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:29 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote: >Well thanks to the PDP-8/m, I'm finally getting around to trying to figure >out how to use my Tek 465B scope. Unfortunatly according to my Dad the >scope needs some work, I figure he should know as he retired from Tek. >With his help I did finally get some readings, not quite what I'm looking >for, but I'm fighting several obsticales. No manual, an apparently flakey >scope and you *don't* even want to know what I'm using for probes (hint, >they looked kitbashed, and I've had to extend the connectors to be able to >take readings). > >End result, I'm pondering just going out and buying a new scope Why don't you fix the 465? They're great scopes and manuals and accessories are easy to get for them. Even a DEC head should be able to fix one, given enough time! Joe From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 23 17:18:20 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes References: <199911232305.PAA19335@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <99112318191303.04293@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > You can get manuals for these someplace. They are out there. For manuals try www.usimperio.com. I deal with these folks regularly (they're local to me) and they're very well-stocked. Tek manuals aren't cheap, though... -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 23 17:19:19 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes References: <19991123.170454.72.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <99112318203704.04293@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >My sentiments exactly. >I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition, >and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice* >465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're >pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway). I agree...I've got a gorgeous HP 54111D color digitizing scope which is basically God in a box...but I most frequenly turn to my 475 to get stuff done. -Dave McGuire From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Nov 23 17:23:45 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <19991123.170454.72.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: I still have my 465, and quite a few are still in use; I'm not sure it's worth trying to find a 465A or 465B, but they are all nice. The 465s do have a nasty failure mode: the large time base knob sometimes slips, and then you're stuck at, say, 1 ms per div. On mine, I disassembled the assembly and drilled 4 holes (two strokes of the drillpress in a "+" pattern) and then tapped those holes, put in some machine bolts and now the knob works better than new. I must say, however, with my digital TDS 210 now, I rarely use the 465 unless I need more than 2 traces, and I don't need the digital capture and measurement facilities of the '210 that makes working on the bench -much- more productive. -Mike Cheponis On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > My sentiments exactly. > I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition, > and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice* > 465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're > pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway). > > > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow writes: > > "Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" > > > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST > > place I'd buy any test gear from. > > > > I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used > > TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd > > be able to buy new in your price range. > > > > You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 16:32:44 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <003901bf3602$a9363600$3c20d1d8@default> Couldn't agree more Al. I have and use a 2465 on most analog and 4 trace matters. I have a THS720A for "inside the rack" and I use my TDS654 for high speed glitch problems. I would highly recommend anyone buying a 2465 on EBay... Excellent scopes to 300Mhz and really inexpensive... much better than the 465. -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >"Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" > >Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST >place I'd buy any test gear from. > >I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used >TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd >be able to buy new in your price range. > >You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 23 17:38:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991123191659.50bfbfb4@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Nov 23, 1999 07:16:59 PM Message-ID: <199911232338.PAA06630@shell1.aracnet.com> > Why don't you fix the 465? They're great scopes and manuals and > accessories are easy to get for them. Even a DEC head should be able to > fix one, given enough time! > > Joe Well, I gotta admit part of it has to do with seeing how small the newer scopes are! You know, smaller testgear means more room for bigger computers. Especially when it looks like I could tuck a TDS210 Oscope looks like it would fit inside some of the free space under the drives on my PDP-11/44 :^) OK, on a serious note, one of the things I'm looking at, is it a better investement to go out and get manuals and probes, as well as possibily get the scope fixed, or just pick up a new one or a good used one that is all there from a reputable dealer (as opposed to a swap meet). Zane PS I suppose I deserve the DEC Head crack after that HP comment :^) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 23 17:52:20 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Nov 23, 1999 03:23:45 PM Message-ID: <199911232352.PAA06829@shell1.aracnet.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: > I must say, however, with my digital TDS 210 now, I rarely use the 465 > unless I need more than 2 traces, and I don't need the digital capture > and measurement facilities of the '210 that makes working on the bench > -much- more productive. Well, you seem to like the TDS 210, so I'm curious, which would you recommend fixing up the 465B (as seems to be the general advice) or get a 210? Is there any classic computer gear I'd need a better scope for? > > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow writes: > > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST > > > place I'd buy any test gear from. OK, it's no where near the same class, but they are who I bought my Fluke from, they appear to have a good selection of what I hope is new test equipment. I do have one rule about buying stuff at Fry's, I don't buy anything there if I think I might want to take it back. So far I've not had any real problems, however, the longer they've had their store up here in Oregon, the worse their prices seem to be. It's no longer worth it to make a trip down there based on prices. But for some things they seem to be the best place to go if you want a good selection, and test equipment looks to be one of those things. Zane From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 17:02:11 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <005601bf3606$c67f5300$3c20d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: healyzh@aracnet.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >Mike Cheponis wrote: >> I must say, however, with my digital TDS 210 now, I rarely use the 465 >> unless I need more than 2 traces, and I don't need the digital capture >> and measurement facilities of the '210 that makes working on the bench >> -much- more productive. > >Well, you seem to like the TDS 210, so I'm curious, which would you >recommend fixing up the 465B (as seems to be the general advice) or get a >210? Is there any classic computer gear I'd need a better scope for? > Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost all of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside the scope (Yikes!). Also, the 210 has a shitty display like my THS720A... it is LCD and rather fast changing waveforms can look like a band of black on the screen (very annoying).. The price is right and the storage is nice but the display is not anywhere near as nice as a CRT. Best thing to do is go to your local Tek dealer and try out a TDS210 and a CRT model (maybe even a 694C ;-) ).. See which one your comfortable with and then buy used if you don't want to spend the bucks. I don't recommend throwing away a few hundred dollars on an old piece of junk... you just might get another PDP-8 to fix! ;-) john >> > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow writes: >> > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST >> > > place I'd buy any test gear from. > >OK, it's no where near the same class, but they are who I bought my Fluke >from, they appear to have a good selection of what I hope is new test >equipment. I do have one rule about buying stuff at Fry's, I don't buy >anything there if I think I might want to take it back. So far I've not had >any real problems, however, the longer they've had their store up here in >Oregon, the worse their prices seem to be. It's no longer worth it to make >a trip down there based on prices. But for some things they seem to be the >best place to go if you want a good selection, and test equipment looks to >be one of those things. > > Zane > > > > From wlfarmer at ancimail.prod.fedex.com Tue Nov 23 18:40:29 1999 From: wlfarmer at ancimail.prod.fedex.com (Bill Farmer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: MSVC Message-ID: <383B33FD.ED4A17C2@ancimail.prod.fedex.com> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlfarmer.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 175 bytes Desc: Card for Bill Farmer Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991123/bbaec88e/wlfarmer.vcf From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 23 18:41:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <199911240041.TAA19956@world.std.com> <> You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 Youch! I do 98% of my work with a B&K 20mhz dual trace and a NLS MS15! Most of the time I don't need more than that to see if life exists and rough timing. I also have a Logic analyser if I need something faster. It's rare that I do. Used to have a 465B, didn't use it enough to warrent maintaining it or it's weight. While the book calls for a better scope, I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems as I used it to set the slice time. Then again, I know how to get the most out of a scope too. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 23 18:27:45 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)) In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: DEC field service (was Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue))" (Nov 22, 18:04) References: <199911222304.SAA06303@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <9911240027.ZM16150@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 22, 18:04, Bill Pechter wrote: > Boy the number of 4:55pm calls on Friday used to really %R$^& me off > including the one a printer at Roche medicalwhere the customer shimmed the > ribbon path with test tube lids and left scalpul blades in the LP25 when I > got sent out to work it. > > The printer was obviously having problems for at least a day or so > before they finished their medical test runs -- but they waited to call > until it was completely unreadable. Sounds like one I had to deal with when I worked for a third-party maintenance company. I was trained on Q-bus and mostly worked in the regional workshop, but I did a few fill-ins on other stuff. Anyway, one afternoon I was sent out to the head office of a well-known bank in Edinburgh, to deal with a printer (not on normal contract, but a fix-on-fail pay-per-fix deal). I was ushered into a room with four middle managers, one of whom was highly resentful that the Epson FX80 on his PC AT had stopped working, and even more resentful that someone was going to get in his way in order to fix it :-) The problem was simple -- it was so clogged with paper dust that the head couldn't move all the way to the margin. I don't just mean there was a lot of dust on the carriage and bars, the case was *full*. I politely suggested the owner might like to clean it (or have it cleaned) periodically, and got a stream of invective about how he'd complained it was making his printouts dusty, it was my problem not his, he was far too busy to ever do anything of the sort, and it was a maintenance company's job anyway. Well, I though of showing him the page in the manual about user maintenance, but it would obviously have been a lost cause... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 23 18:47:26 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Splitting TIFFs (was Re: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Splitting TIFFs (was Re: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems)" (Nov 23, 21:44) References: Message-ID: <9911240047.ZM16165@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 21:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > My guess is that tifftopnm (which is what I normally use) is only going > > > to extract the first page as well. Anybody got a utility to pull the tiff > > > apart into individual pages? > > > > Look for tiffsplit, which I think comes with libtiff (so if you built > > Right... The version of the pnm tools I installed came with libtiff > (correctly configured :-)), but not with any other utilities... > > However, I now know what to look for when I need to split up multi-page > tiffs (which is hopefully not too often) -- thanks! I thought of tiffsplit too, but I tried it on a couple of the smaller tiffs from highgate today -- and it choked. tiffsplit only recognises a limited set of tags, and those tiffs seem to have at least one it doesn't like :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 18:07:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 23, 99 02:29:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/623f0045/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 18:24:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 23, 99 02:47:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/59515021/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 23 21:05:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911232338.PAA06630@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19991123191659.50bfbfb4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991123210555.3b672b88@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:38 PM 11/23/99 -0800, Zane wrote: > >PS I suppose I deserve the DEC Head crack after that HP comment :^) I'm sure you've been called worse. :-/ You sure started a fire storm with that HP comment. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 23 21:18:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991123211832.3b3f873a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:07 AM 11/24/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> >> >> >> End result, I'm pondering just going out and buying a new scope (which I'll > >My first reaction would be to go and get a manual for the 465B (which, >although old, is still a very nice 'scope). And then fix the old 'scope. >You'll learn some (useful) electronics by so doing as well.... I agree with Tony. Fix it. A 465 is still a fine scope by any standard. I think I have a service manual for it too. Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 23 19:22:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <005601bf3606$c67f5300$3c20d1d8@default> from "John B" at Nov 23, 1999 06:02:11 PM Message-ID: <199911240122.RAA09299@shell1.aracnet.com> john wrote: > Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost all > of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside the If I replace the scope I've got, I don't see me trying to cut corners again by getting another used scope. If I do, it will be from a reputable dealer. > scope (Yikes!). Also, the 210 has a shitty display like my THS720A... it is > LCD and rather fast changing waveforms can look like a band of black on the > screen (very annoying).. The price is right and the storage is nice but the > display is not anywhere near as nice as a CRT. I've got to admit I'm wondering about the quality of a LCD display. > Best thing to do is go to your local Tek dealer and try out a TDS210 and a > CRT model (maybe even a 694C ;-) ).. See which one your comfortable with > and then buy used if you don't want to spend the bucks. Sound advice, I figure I'd like to be able to see what I'm getting before I get it. However, a quick look at the Tek site has me suspecting I'm not going to want to spring for any more than a TDS210. > I don't recommend throwing away a few hundred dollars on an old piece of > junk... you just might get another PDP-8 to fix! ;-) I like that kind of reasoning :^) I'd still like to get something like an -8/i one of these days, but the -8/m is better than nothing (and it's taken a long time just to get it). Zane From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 23 21:24:23 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: HP 5001 MicroProcessor Exerciser Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991123212423.48777cf8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Does anyone have a manual for one of these or has anyone ever used one? Joe From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 23 19:40:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <003201bf361c$ecf61e40$0400c0a8@winbook> Too bad it's the 465 "B" version. I've got an extra service manual for the 'A' version, which was the last one TEK built before simplifying their triggering circuit. They did this because HP proved you don't have to be able to trigger all that well. I recently (2 years back) bought a fairly clean TEK 475A with the DM44 option and probes for the scope and the DMM for $500 by searching the newsgroups. I still have my 465 which I bought about 20 years ago from an instrument rental outfit. It needed a little service, and, when I took it to TEK, I learned that it was only three months old and still in warranty, so the tune-up was free. The fellow who declared his "fav" is the 2465 has forgotten the size of the difference in cost between a scope like the one I bought and that model. My 2467B was stolen in a burglary about five years ago, and, while I got my 2467 from a local aerospace contractor doing a selloff after a contract was prematurely terminated. The 2467 equipped as mine was would have cost about $15K leaving out the less common options, though there were fewer than half a dozen for sale throughout the country. I should have paid closer attention to the price changes and the ones which were sold while I was negotiating with my insurance carrier. By the time I got a check, the lowest-priced available 2467B was over $20k. For fiddling with a PDP-8 you don't need a 400MHz 4-channel instrument with GPIB, etc, with microchannel plate display amplification to help you observe metastability in sub-10ns logic, since there isn't any (sub 10ns logic, I mean). If you look on DEJANEWS, you can find several guys who routinely refurbish and resell instruments. They will send the instrument to you on approval, and all you're risking is the odd $50 for shipping. A lot depends on what you have sense to tell the guy you want, since that may remind him to check things out more thoroughly. I'd recommend you buy your probes from the guy who sells you the instrument. They're more important than you might think, and the guy who wants to sell his scope will be motivated to find you what you want. Be sure to insiste that they be complete, however, because missing parts are likely to remain so. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: >> You can get manuals for these someplace. They are out there. > > For manuals try www.usimperio.com. I deal with these folks regularly >(they're local to me) and they're very well-stocked. Tek manuals aren't cheap, >though... > > -Dave McGuire From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 18:59:18 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <019c01bf3617$22f39640$8372e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: healyzh@aracnet.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:40 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >john wrote: >> Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost all >> of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside the > >If I replace the scope I've got, I don't see me trying to cut corners again >by getting another used scope. If I do, it will be from a reputable dealer. > >> scope (Yikes!). Also, the 210 has a shitty display like my THS720A... it is >> LCD and rather fast changing waveforms can look like a band of black on the >> screen (very annoying).. The price is right and the storage is nice but the >> display is not anywhere near as nice as a CRT. > >I've got to admit I'm wondering about the quality of a LCD display. > I am quite sure you *won't* like it compared to a CRT... and a field of video on it looks like garbage. >> Best thing to do is go to your local Tek dealer and try out a TDS210 and a >> CRT model (maybe even a 694C ;-) ).. See which one your comfortable with >> and then buy used if you don't want to spend the bucks. > >Sound advice, I figure I'd like to be able to see what I'm getting before I >get it. However, a quick look at the Tek site has me suspecting I'm not >going to want to spring for any more than a TDS210. > Then buy a CRT scope from another manufacturer. Tek is costly... or... You could be patient, call the largest local liquidator around and get on his mailing list. I picked up two of my scopes through bankruptcy auctions and paid far less than what they were worth. Look for a local company going broke that *would* need a good digital CRT scope in operations(more than you think). You can get the list before the auction and scan for a TEK realtime. I have turned down *many* TDS400 series scopes for less than $600US at these auctions because what could I do with a forth scope???? Most bidders attend a food processing plant for food and machines.. not Tektronix scopes.. and you won't find your local surplus guy bidding against you if it is the only piece of electronic equipment they had. I take *leaves* from work at least twice a month for auctions. At auctions over the past three years I have found (just for interest): IBM 1401 - went for $500 (Interhauler Yahts - Niagara Falls Area) Basic MAI 4 - $800 (some guy thought he could use it in his company - hahahaha) NCR Xenix? Towers Actually I saw another 1401 sell at "Sun Beam Shoes" in Port Colbourne (near niagara falls) for scrap at their bankruptcy auction because they couldn't even get a minimum bid of $200. Too many PDPs to list.. not to mention an IBM1130 at the local school board auction a few years ago. >> I don't recommend throwing away a few hundred dollars on an old piece of >> junk... you just might get another PDP-8 to fix! ;-) > >I like that kind of reasoning :^) I'd still like to get something like an >-8/i one of these days, but the -8/m is better than nothing (and it's taken >a long time just to get it). > I am happy you agree. I could never justify blowing $500 on a piece of junk if I know I *really* need to spend a thousand bucks on something I can use for a long time. 8I ????????? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. email me! > Zane > From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Nov 23 20:03:16 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes | Free * if wanted, poss OT. References: <199911232305.PAA19335@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <383B4764.E87188EF@banet.net> I've got in my basement a Heath model 100-203-31, which was apparently something from a home study course, or something, as it's labeled on the front "Bell and Howell Schools". I got it from someone I knew, who wasn't into electronics (didn't even know what it was), a couple years ago, and I've never gotten around to even plugging it in, so I don't know if it works, or what.. Bottom line is, if anyone wants it, better than seeing it go into the brown "Waste Management" barrel, as I don't think I'll get time to play with it. I'm about 18 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts. If you want it shipped, (here's where the * comes in!) I'd appreciate a little contribution via return mail toward the shipping costs, after you receive it. E-mail to wpe101@banet.net. Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 19:57:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911240041.TAA19956@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 23, 99 07:41:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/91ec8a59/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Nov 23 20:06:55 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Own Your Own Internet Store In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991123140742.00a72560@206.231.8.2> References: <252.331807.498796@unknown> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991123180655.009595f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 14:14 23-11-1999 -0500, you wrote: >Upon the date 12:29 PM 11/23/99 +0000, sports111opp@hotmail.com said >something like: > > > >Could these guys have sent this as a vindictive attempt at getting back at >us for your good attempt at LARTting them Bruce? If so, *really* LART them It's possible I suppose, but I doubt it. The headers didn't look like -anyone- I've LARTed in the past few months. I think this was just some moron thinking that mailing lists are good to spam. >ClassicCmp subscribers could use Hotmail as a quick, simple email provider >-especially if they're traveling, etc. I see your point, and I doubt that would happen. If a listmember needs to send something while traveling, it's easy enough to register one of the free E-mail addys. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mallison at konnections.com Tue Nov 23 20:00:34 1999 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: MSVC Message-ID: <014801bf361f$b2558b60$ce7a3fd1@oemcomputer> I don't remember a "Visual C" for DOS. There was Microsoft C which the best version was probably 5. There (might) have been a Visual C for Windows 3.1. I received a free copy of Visual C++ for Windows 3.1 with Visual C++ V4, or whatever. I see copies of those in the CD resale/software resellers around here. I have MS C, but I think the only one I have is for Xenix.... Of course, I could be totally wrong, I can't remember. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Bill Farmer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: MSVC >Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do >not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 19:19:13 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <01b001bf3619$eb5d3620$8372e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >> It's rare that I do. Used to have a 465B, didn't use it enough to warrent >> maintaining it or it's weight. While the book calls for a better scope, >> I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems > >Sure... But if you're buying a 'scope, it makes sense to get one that >will do all that you might need. So while you don't need a 50MHz 'scope >or whatever to sort out 8/f core memory, you might find it worth getting >one for other work. > >> as I used it to set the slice time. Then again, I know how to get the most >> out of a scope too. > >Oh sure... > >There are some people here (you're certainly one, I like to think I'm >another) who (most of the time, at least :-)) understand what we're >trying to look at and understand just what our test gear will do when >given a strange signal. We know what our '20MHz' scope will do with a >30MHz signal. And we know how to push the instruments a bit. > >You don't _need_ expensive test equipment. I've done a lot of fault >tracing using a cheap analogue multimeter and a Radio Shack logic probe. >And with those 2 instruments I managed to extract enough clues to the >fault to replace the fault component first time (most of the time). > >However, I am also sure that there are people here who could use some >more clues as to the fault, who can't interpret every last piece of >information that they can get from simple instruments. And those people >generally make use of rather more instruments, which perhaps aren't >strictly necessary... > >Don't get me wrong -- there are times when _I_ find a 'scope essential. >Perhaps if I was more clueful I'd not need one then either, but I do. But >I've also discovered that _very_ rarely do you need a new and expensive >piece of test gear to fix a classic computer. Most likely you can do it >with what you already have if you think about the problem. > I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks to fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again, I find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why we need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes. >I was discussing a related subject with a friend earlier this evening. We >came to the conclusion that experienced hackers (this was actually about >mechanical engineering, but it applies to electronics as well) can do a >lot of good work using 'scrap' components and a few tools/instruments. >But beginners probably should use new (and known-good) components and >have rather more instruments. Of course it's often the other way round -- >beginners don't have the money to spend on a hobby they may not continue >with, while experienced people have obtained a good collection of tools >and test gear over the years (and really know how to use it!). > >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 23 20:40:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <01b001bf3619$eb5d3620$8372e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 23, 99 08:19:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/448a1088/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 23 20:58:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <199911240258.VAA01456@world.std.com> <> I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems < References: <01b001bf3619$eb5d3620$8372e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991123220630.00eb397c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 02:40 AM 11/24/99 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn >the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see >_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking... > >-tony They probably don't target engineers, then. Anyone knows that the correct definition is given by the -3dB criterion. They should know that "9 Amp vacuum cleaners" and "1000 Watt peak music power output" means lack of seriousness to an engineer. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 23 20:13:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 24, 1999 12:24:25 AM Message-ID: <199911240213.SAA10143@shell1.aracnet.com> > Forget the pulser, which isn't that useful, actually... Somehow that doesn't surprise me, and it's actually a relief to hear that! > (I assume you have a TTL databook giving the pinouts of the common TTL > chips -- if not, GET ONE!). I've got a copies of the TTL and CMOS Cookbooks, but suspect I should keep my eyes open for actual databooks. If needed I think I know where I can borrow one. > These sound like the ones that Radio Shack/Tandy were selling. FWIW, I You guessed it. > So don't think your logic probe is preventing you finding the fault here. > It's not. It'll easily do the job. Don't worry, even though it is from Radio Shack it looks more than up to the task at hand. > > >to the entire card. You might look at E24 (8881) and E28 (384). These > > >chips are quad line drivers and receivers and it's possible for an entire > > > > I'm guessing the next step is to also take the logic probe to these, but I > > don't find any data on these chips... > > Let's sort out the addressing fault first, and I'll then see what I can > find on these (I must have at least a pinout...) Hmmm, could that info be in the Logic Handbooks, or Small Computer Handbooks? I've got a bunch of them. I don't remember seeing chips though... One thing, I think E28 is actually a 5384, but it was late last night when I was looking at the board, and didn't make a note of what the first number is. > > >during a write cycle to see if the CPU can pull them low. > > > > Was hoping to look into this, but it took so long to figure out the > > O-scope, that I'm out of time today, gotta be at work in 15. > > You probably don't _need_ a 'scope at this point. You can do a lot with > just the logic probe and a length of wire.... I figured all I needed at this point was the Logic Probe, I just got kind of sidetracked checking out the Oscope. > For example. Put the logic probe on MD0 (MSB) on the backplane and > deposit 7777. It blips low, right? Now examine that location (assumed to > be a 'working' location) -- it blips low again. OK, one quick question on this that I've been meaning to clear up, but think I've got right. '0' is the component side, and '1' is the back side, right? The manual seem to cover every other part of finding a specific pin except that. Zane From me at mallison.fsbusiness.co.uk Tue Nov 23 20:02:26 1999 From: me at mallison.fsbusiness.co.uk (Mike Allison Freeserve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Test Message-ID: <003e01bf3628$f6b34a00$ce7a3fd1@oemcomputer> test From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 23 21:17:15 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: <199911240041.TAA19956@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991123221715.00eb8664@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 01:57 AM 11/24/99 +0000, you wrote: \>There are some people here (you're certainly one, I like to think I'm >another) who (most of the time, at least :-)) understand what we're >trying to look at and understand just what our test gear will do when >given a strange signal. We know what our '20MHz' scope will do with a >30MHz signal. And we know how to push the instruments a bit. What about diagnosing a fault triggered by excessive "ringing" (say, because of having substituted a driver by something with a smaller than usual trise) with an 80 Mhz fundamental? You won't see that in the slower scope... It reminds me of when IGBT's first came out. The transitions were so fast that transmission line effects between the power electronics and the motors sometimes caused a stationary wave -- that tended to break down the insulation in motors over time. The very first generation of IGBT AC drives from most companies had this problem -- nobody had thought that could happen ... From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 20:22:29 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <01be01bf3622$c1ab9a20$8372e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks to >> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use > >It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes >are easy and cheap to repair. > We are talking about someone here who is *unable* to fix his own scope. I am sure you or I could fix it for under $5 (providing the CRT and flyback are good)... but in the real world most people *can't* fix their own test equipment. In fact, most general repair shops aren't able to do a fair job.... >> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic >> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very > >_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern >stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how >you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results. Tony, I can't see distortion in an oscillator at 61.25Mhz with a 20Mhz scope.... And I have pioneered *alot* of code cracking on video signals and that would not be possible with any old equipment. You *can* do alot of troubleshooting with a 15Mhz scope... but, for instance, I can't see distortion/FSK data on a122.7Mhz oscillator/FM transmitter (that band should mean something to you ;-) ) with a 15Mhz scope. Each to his own... You obviously love working with old test equipment and support old hardware. I don't see a lot of people out there like yourself anymore.. [although I have met a few non-gui UNIX administrators that hate my guts after tossing their servers for NT] .. I like working on the old stuff; sometimes even with the old stuff... but I don't bring that into new world work... That's just me. > >> good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again, I >> find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why we >> need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes. > >Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the >catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly, >etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old >Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek >with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!. > I agree, but old scopes are expensive to maintain for someone who is not able to repair it himself. >The other thing is that a Tektronix '20 MHz' scope will, in general >display something useful for signals of a considerably higher frequency >(I've 'pushed' a 50MHz 547 (_really old_) to at least 75 MHz). Yes, the >amplitude calibration is off. All signals look like a sine wave. But you >can still make measurements if you have to. MY POINT! I was refering to RF work above... you don't just buy a scope for old mini digital work.. If you buy an old scope/20Mhz you automatically rule out most high frequency analog work and communications. Digital signals look like sine waves.. ever tried to diagnose a problem with an RF circuit with a minimum bandwidth scope??? The waveform looks like pure garbage.. Hence, the need for a *real* scope. > >At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn >the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see >_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking... > Agreed , I have done it with my 2465 (yes, I have had to look at RF higher than 300Mhz)... In fact, I use to use a dual trace Gould (100Mhz) on 200Mhz work..... with minor grief. All depends on the application. Where are you located in the UK? >-tony > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 23 21:28:25 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes | More! Free * if wanted, poss OT. In-Reply-To: <383B4764.E87188EF@banet.net> References: <199911232305.PAA19335@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991123222825.009b7570@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that wpe101@banet.net may have mentioned these words: [snippage of free stuff...] Holey, macaroni... talk about free 'scope nite... I have 3 (count 'em, 3) HP1741A's (or was that 1714A) known "un-good"... tho I have powered them up, and from my limited surveying seem to have different faults so you'd prolly be able to get one (maybe two) good working scopes out of them. I do remember that 1 or 2 tubes are good, AFAICT. No probes with them... sorry. I got them when the local university was having their "garage sale" and they had just unloaded these off the truck... I said "how much ya want" and, expecting $50+ per, they said "dunno." I said "do they work?" They said "dunno." I said "$5 each?" They said "Sure." They're in decent shape other than the fact they don't work. Clean inside and out, from what I saw of the innards. I'm easily willing to eat the $5 per without heartburn, someone getting these who might bring 'em back to life is payment enough for that. However, reimbursement in shipping is necessary... If ya wan't 'em fast, it'll cost ya - they've got handles, but that's a misnomer. They're *really* heavy. If you don't mind a "slow-boat-to-China" approach and are willing to meet a trucker at a truckstop on a moment's notice (or if you have a rig-accessable drop-off point near an interstate highway), my dad is a trucker. I could box them up for outdoorsey storage and the next time my dad has a load to wherever you are (he trucks the whole US) he can call you and meet at a truckstop to win your prize. Warning: There is *no* guarantee when he'll get thru a particular "neck of the woods" so it could take upwards of a year to get them delivered. But it would be *really* cheap... my dad would prolly gratis the shipping end of things if I made the box[es] rugged enough and so it doesn't take up much room on the flatbed, and the box[es] itself would entail $10-$20 worth of materials, so a "donation" along those lines would be appreciated. Why so generous ;-)? 3 weeks after I got 'em, a friend of mine was selling a Tek fribblemumble (I think... I don't remember numbers well -- 50Mhz, dual trigger, with 1 probe) for $200. *Great* scope for the $$$. He was looking to buy something faster... until he saw the price of new 200Mhz scopes. (He didn't look until after he sold it... Did I take advantage of him? Nah - I told him he can borrow it whenever he wants... ;-) I also found him a "like new" 250Mhz scope for sale on Haggle.com for around $400, but he didn't jump. I did hope to use the Tek to fix the HP's, but that was *really* low on my priority list. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 23 21:23:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <008701bf362b$6fa15180$0400c0a8@winbook> Going too cheap on a 'scope might be regretted. Buying too recent a low-end instrument might be a disappointment as well. A 20-year-old 465 in really decent functional condition and with al its parts and manuals can be had nearly any day from a retailer of such hardware for $400, including a pair of 100 MHz probes with most of their accessories, and often for less than that. It (including the somewhat less well-suited 'B' version) will do ANYTHING you need on most classic hardware. Knowing that, by itself, is worth quite a bit, because you KNOW when you power it up, it will do what you need. What might be even more interesting is the more or less equivalent TEK 466, which is a storage scope. That will let you do even more than the 465 and, when you can find one, won't cost much more. A current-generation low-end analog 'scope will not begin to do what a 20-25-year-old one will do, because 25 years ago, the 20 MHz scope was the typical workhorse. If you look at today's, it's a toy. If you find a used TEK 935 (?) which was considered a "student" instrument for use in schools, etc, it's all solid-state, which means you don't have to use up $5 in power to warm it up, and spend $5 more for a six-pack to drink while you wait, and, though it hasn't got the high bandwidth, it has the delayed timebase, and two channels triggerable either externally or internally, etc. You shouldn't have to pay even $200 for one of these, complete with the two probes, which, by the way, are probably over half the cost. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes >> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks to >> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use > >It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes >are easy and cheap to repair. > >> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic >> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very > >_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern >stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how >you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results. > >> good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again, I >> find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why we >> need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes. > >Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the >catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly, >etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old >Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek >with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!. > >The other thing is that a Tektronix '20 MHz' scope will, in general >display something useful for signals of a considerably higher frequency >(I've 'pushed' a 50MHz 547 (_really old_) to at least 75 MHz). Yes, the >amplitude calibration is off. All signals look like a sine wave. But you >can still make measurements if you have to. > >At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn >the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see >_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking... > >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 23 21:38:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <199911240338.WAA21278@world.std.com> <> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks <> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use < *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic <> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very < <_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern Message-ID: <383B5EB0.46136CD@halcyon.com> You're probably thinking of Microsoft Quick C for DOS. It had a "low-resolution" (character) graphics interface and was available for DOS as well as Windows 3.1. If you search the Internet for surplus software sites, you might find a copy around; I seem to remember seeing some sites in the past that had older stuff like this, but I don't recall exactly where. If you are comfortable with a command-line interface, Microsoft C Version 6.0 was probably best version of Microsoft C before Visual C++ (Version 8) came out. Dave Bill Farmer wrote: > > Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do > not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 23 21:36:53 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: <01b001bf3619$eb5d3620$8372e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991123223653.009af610@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >It all depends on how >you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results. That's what I tell my wife, but she doesn't believe me!!! ;-) Well, at least I liked it... that's how I interpret the results. ;-) ---Too many 14 hour days... I'm going home. Up early again tomorrow. :-( 'Nite, (well, for those of us in the Eastern US, anyway... :-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 23 21:47:55 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards Message-ID: <19991124034755.13327.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> OK... take two on this... I've been working with a pile of hex and quad ONMIBUS cards and a PDP-8/e and PDP-8/a chassis. At one point I had a working machine, but since last weekend, something new has flaked out. I have one KK8E board set that passes basic front panel ops, runs an inchworm program but does not seem to be able to communicate out the serial port (M8560). I have a KK8A/DKC8AA/KM8A set that appears to boot floppies, but gives me funny results on the console. The KK8E processor board set does not seem to want to work in the -8/a box. The KK8A does not seem to work in the PDP-8/e box (the Load Address switch increments the MA register; it doesn't load it). The best I'm getting out of the -8/a right now is to waggle the floppies a bit, sort of boot, and drop me at an OS/8 dot prompt. This is even true of the ADVENTURE floppy that was booting last week. When I type commands at the prompt, none run, but I get odd error messages. One pattern is that if I type the command "ADVENT" at the prompt on the advent disk, I get back "ADFEND" - the letters drop a bit. If I attempt to run a command "UUUU", I get back "EEEE" as an error. Given that if the CPU or memory or RX8E were bad the system wouldn't boot, it suggests to me that there is a problem with the DKC8AA. My biggest problem is that I have schematics, but without a front panel on the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations to run the CPU through its paces and I can't toggle in simple programs. I have the prints for the DKC8AA. Is it feasible to build my own front panel? I don't even have one to copy; I'd be guessing the whole way. If I could use the KK8A in the -8/e box, I would use _its_ front panel, but that doesn't seem to work either. Does anyone have any helpful advice to get me past this chicken and the egg problem? I have prints; I have extender cards; I have a scope. I even have a logic analyzer, but it's not presently at the same place as the -8's. What I don't have is a combination of PDP-8 hardware that lends itself to reasonable testing. As for the PDP-8/e, does anyone have a simple TTY test routine? I could write one, but I'd love to see one that has stood the test of time. As I mentioned above, the inchworm runs fine. I'm presently using all quad cards except for an MS8-C 32K MOS memory card; I have core, but I don't know where the box of overhead connectors got left - I only know where three connectors are and the CPU needs two. I do happen to have a couple of Heathkit backplane connectors I can wire together, but I'm still short enough to do a proper job. For now, the MOS memory seems to work fine; it's the M865 and M8650 that I'm looking into. Thanks in advance, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 23 22:15:10 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <19991124041510.4484.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > My sentiments exactly. > I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition, > and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice* > 465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're > pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway). That ain't old... I've got a Tek 317 that I bought at auction about six or seven years ago... it has an A.E.C. inventory sticker from 1968. The sign at the auction cashier's window said, "All equipment is guaranteed to be non-radioactive". Some reassurance. :-) It didn't come with probes, but a friend of mine at the local university found me a package of vintage probes, unopened, in a drawer. Probably been there since they were new. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 23 21:25:47 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes Message-ID: <01f001bf362b$99acde40$8372e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 11:19 PM Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes > > >--- Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >> My sentiments exactly. >> I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition, >> and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice* >> 465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're >> pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway). > >That ain't old... I've got a Tek 317 that I bought at auction about six >or seven years ago... it has an A.E.C. inventory sticker from 1968. The >sign at the auction cashier's window said, "All equipment is guaranteed >to be non-radioactive". Some reassurance. :-) I just won two Tek RM503s on EBay, one for my 8/S and one for the 8I. Talk about old.... I have never worked on scopes this old... Hope I can get them up and running to play spacewars soon. These were the original scopes used in the LAB-8.. and now I find out (contrary to quite a few things in the PDP-8 FAQ) they were also used as the oscilloscope on the 34D interface. How is your 8/e restoration going? john > >It didn't come with probes, but a friend of mine at the local university >found me a package of vintage probes, unopened, in a drawer. Probably been >there since they were new. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. >Yahoo! Shopping. > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 23 22:42:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19991123221715.00eb8664@postoffice3.mail.cornell. edu> References: <199911240041.TAA19956@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991123203634.0231cc00@mcmanis.com> Having done this I'll weigh in in favor of the older Tek gear. When I had $1000 in my pocket "destined" for an oscilloscope I surveyed the market and nearly bough a Kiksui(sp?) scope. It was Korean made and had more bells and whistles than the Teks in the same price range. I ended up buying a used 465B that still had a valid calibration stamp. After about a month the horizontal amplifier went out on one of the channels which I had repaired for about $150. Since then it has worked flawlessly. Later, after my means had expanded somewhat I went back to the same dealer that was hot on the Kik scopes and asked him where they had gone, he simply said "away." They kept coming back (returns) and so he stopped selling them. So consider taking the 465B to a repair shop and getting a quote. If it is under $500 it would be a better investment than a "lesser" but newer scope. --Chuck From ndiablo at diablonet.net Tue Nov 23 23:46:59 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: Spare BA* series chassi? Message-ID: <19991124054659.24563.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Hi, all.. I've recently upgraded my microVAX II to a III and I have enough spare qbus cards around to built another microVAX II, but unfortunently no spare chassi.. I've scoured the general area and places like eBay and i've not been able to track down anything, so I was wondering if anybody had any spare BA* chassi that they would be interested in selling... Looking mostly for BA23 chassi since they're a bit more mangable than something like a BA123... I'd be willing to buy and/or pay shipping and handling on any that anybody might not need. Or, if somebody had a spare BA123 or something and lived in the south- western to south-central Michigan area and rather excessive shipping costs would not be an issue, i'd be willing to pick them up as well. Thanks a bunch, -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From truthanl at oclc.org Tue Nov 23 23:14:44 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:42 2005 Subject: MicroVax I microVMS 4.1 Password locked out. Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EAE0F@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> My MicroVax 1 microVMS 4.1 wont allow me past username password prompt. My VMS system managers manaul talks about a way yo "Conversational Boot" a Vax system to enter "SET UAFALTERNATE 1". It shows this beig done from a SYSBOOT> prompt. I dont know how to get a SYSBOOT Prompt or Conversational Boot on my MicroVax I. VMS System managers Manual states that this info is in "Hardware System installation & operators Guide for (my) specific system. I don't have this guide. Is there A FAQ somewhere on breaking in past your username/password prompt from microVax console? Ethan Dicks gave me default SYSTEM MANAGER FIELD SERVICE and SYSTEST UETP username password pairs, which don't help. This should be the common case of system manager forgetting Password. ANY HELP? Is there a crypyic command structure to intercept sysboot process and make it "conversational"? Sincerely Larry Truthan From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 24 00:22:41 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Fireproofing questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >My question is this: is there something anyone could recommend that would >make a good lining for the inner walls of the cabinet to insulate it from Too bad you didn't ask me this a couple months ago, I threw away a 4 drawer fireproof filing cabinet (and what a SOB to get rid of). It was in pretty rough shape from sitting outside a couple years, but two layers of heavy steel with more than an inch of firebrick inbetween is hard to beat. Two problems with a fireproof thing, one is direct heat rise from flames, the second is water damage from putting out the fire and the resulting steam. I put my stuff in cardboard boxes. :) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 24 00:31:21 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911232245.OAA09163@spies.com> Message-ID: >"Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" > >Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST >place I'd buy any test gear from. > >I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used >TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd >be able to buy new in your price range. > >You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 Fry's is a topic unto itself. Love em, hate em, but they likely have that weird part you were looking for that the last four electronics/computer/etc. store didn't stock anymore. Its like asking if the jungle is a good place to get an elephant, sure, but it is a BIT dangerous. I would shop for a scope the same way as anything else, carefully figure out what your requirements are, ask some smart people, shop for price. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Nov 24 01:47:31 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 23, 1999 10:31:21 PM Message-ID: <199911240747.AAA31587@calico.litterbox.com> > >"Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?" > > > >Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST > >place I'd buy any test gear from. > > > >I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used > >TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd > >be able to buy new in your price range. > > > >You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500 > > Fry's is a topic unto itself. Love em, hate em, but they likely have that > weird part you were looking for that the last four > electronics/computer/etc. store didn't stock anymore. Its like asking if > the jungle is a good place to get an elephant, sure, but it is a BIT > dangerous. > > I would shop for a scope the same way as anything else, carefully figure > out what your requirements are, ask some smart people, shop for price. And don't expect their employees to know a scope from an elephant. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 24 02:19:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Spare BA* series chassi? In-Reply-To: <19991124054659.24563.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: >Hi, all.. I've recently upgraded my microVAX II to a III and I have enough >spare qbus cards around to built another microVAX II, but unfortunently >no spare chassi.. I've scoured the general area and places like eBay and >i've not been able to track down anything, so I was wondering if anybody >had any spare BA* chassi that they would be interested in selling... > >Looking mostly for BA23 chassi since they're a bit more mangable than >something like a BA123... I'd be willing to buy and/or pay shipping and >handling on any that anybody might not need. > >Or, if somebody had a spare BA123 or something and lived in the south- >western to south-central Michigan area and rather excessive shipping >costs would not be an issue, i'd be willing to pick them up as well. > >Thanks a bunch, > -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) Good luck, I won't tell you how long it's taken me to get even a spare BA23 and BA123 as backups. Something to consider with the BA123's is that they're more than just a computer, they're also a small table, take up only a little more floor space when all is said and done, and they're a lot nicer to work on. Mine has a LA75 and a VT420 sitting on top of it, made a little shelf to put the VT420 on top of, and paper underneath, and the LA75 holds the keyboard at just about the right height. You might also want to keep an eye out for BA213's, but of the three I really do prefer the BA123, as it makes the best table! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 24 02:08:52 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911240122.RAA09299@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <005601bf3606$c67f5300$3c20d1d8@default> from "John B" at Nov 23, 1999 06:02:11 PM Message-ID: >> Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost all >> of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside the > >If I replace the scope I've got, I don't see me trying to cut corners again >by getting another used scope. If I do, it will be from a reputable dealer. Technology marches forward at a furious pace, but I have a hard time thinking most of use could not get along just fine with any decent scope in the last 15 years. I have never seen a "worn out" scope, just broken ones, so used doesn't bother me at all. OTOH I have always been the fool buying the old Porsche with my new Taurus budget. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 24 04:31:11 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 23, 99 02:47:30 pm Message-ID: >> >> I had the following results when depositing 7777 to the memory. >> >> >> >> Memory locations: xxx0 - xxx3 don't save anything >> >> Memory locations: xxx4 - xxx7 save 7760 >> >> >My guess is that eitehr E46 is faulty, or it's never being enabled. The >> >enable is applied to input D of the chip (pin 2) , from the gates in E34 >> >(74H10). This is not going to be hard to trace out. Hmm, I'm almost safe with this thing, looks like it's a good thing that the system appears to be fairly robust since it doesn't seem to be any more messed up that it's been. Just realized I was testing the G227 board with +15V hooked up to the Logic Probe, which explains why the probe was just beeping, instead of showing the change from high to low and vice versa (of course I realized this after swapping the G227 and G104). However, it looks like E46 is indeed bad. It doesn't seem to function like it should. On E39 some of the legs get a single blip every eight examines (yes, I know that isn't a very good way of describing it, but I didn't take notes, plus I wasn't using the probe right). BTW, both E46 and E39 looked to be getting blips at the right spots on Pin 2. >> >to the entire card. You might look at E24 (8881) and E28 (384). These >> >chips are quad line drivers and receivers and it's possible for an entire >> >> I'm guessing the next step is to also take the logic probe to these, but I >> don't find any data on these chips... > >Let's sort out the addressing fault first, and I'll then see what I can >find on these (I must have at least a pinout...) I had a look through a couple books I've got and didn't find anything. I poked around a little with the probe, but think it's time for me to get some sleep. I was planning on getting up early today. >For example. Put the logic probe on MD0 (MSB) on the backplane and >deposit 7777. It blips low, right? Now examine that location (assumed to >be a 'working' location) -- it blips low again. > >Now look at MD11 (LSB) and do the same things. All 12 lines of the MD Bus look to be functioning both ways. This was tested with the proper voltage hooked up to the probe. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Nov 24 05:21:21 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: FWD: saving DECWriter III settings Message-ID: <199911241121.DAA17961@saul9.u.washington.edu> I got this in myh mailbox. It's been a while but maybe someone can still help this guy. It's a very simple question (except that I've never used any model of DECWriter)2~. Please reply to the original sender (he hasn't subscribed to the list yet). -- Derek Forwarded message: > From: "Gary A. Anderson" > To: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:14:33 -0600 > > Trying to find out how to save settings on the Digital Decwriter III. Can > you help or do you know of any who can? Thanks > > Gary A. Anderson > Information Systems > U of MN. Physicians > Voice 612 782-6432 > Pager 612 648-2406 > Fax 612 782-9558 From flo at rdel.co.uk Wed Nov 24 05:53:34 1999 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: FWD: saving DECWriter III settings References: <199911241121.DAA17961@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <383BD1BE.1820F956@rdel.co.uk> [copied to original sender too] > From: "Gary A. Anderson" > To: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:14:33 -0600 > > Trying to find out how to save settings on the Digital Decwriter III. Can > you help or do you know of any who can? Thanks From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 24 09:12:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <01f001bf362b$99acde40$8372e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991124091242.22df3a70@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:25 PM 11/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >>That ain't old... I've got a Tek 317 that I bought at auction about six >>or seven years ago... it has an A.E.C. inventory sticker from 1968. The >>sign at the auction cashier's window said, "All equipment is guaranteed >>to be non-radioactive". Some reassurance. :-) Speaking of new old scopes, a friend of mine is a surplus dealer. He recently bought a huge lot of parts and equipment and got two Tek 7603s that were still new in sealed boxs! No, I can't get you one. There's already a waiting list for them! Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 07:22:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards In-Reply-To: <19991124034755.13327.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: > the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations to run the CPU through its > paces and I can't toggle in simple programs. I have the prints for the > DKC8AA. Is it feasible to build my own front panel? I don't even have one > to copy; I'd be guessing the whole way. If I could use the KK8A in the -8/e > box, I would use _its_ front panel, but that doesn't seem to work either. Fix the 8E box first. don't worry which board is not working but start with that box and a minimal configuration. Forget TTY, Forget OS8, Forget teh full spread of boards just the base CPU and memory thats all. Make that work then add peices. when they are good you can transfer them to the 8a. The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and a logic probe will be adaquate to shoot it if the switches and lights aren't enough. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 07:27:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: MicroVax I microVMS 4.1 Password locked out. In-Reply-To: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EAE0F@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Message-ID: > I dont know how to get a SYSBOOT Prompt or Conversational Boot on my > MicroVax I. VMS System managers Manual states that this info is in > "Hardware System installation & operators Guide for (my) specific system. I > don't have this guide. Try B/1 DUAx or B/100 > Is there A FAQ somewhere on breaking in past your username/password prompt > from microVax console? Same for all Uvaxen and I forget where it is. But you have the sysmanglers manual and I believe it's in that. Allison From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed Nov 24 07:47:51 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes References: <3.0.1.16.19991124091242.22df3a70@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <383BEC87.C610D17B@softstar.it> Joe wrote: > > At 10:25 PM 11/23/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> > >>That ain't old... I've got a Tek 317 that I bought at auction about six > >>or seven years ago... it has an A.E.C. inventory sticker from 1968. The > >>sign at the auction cashier's window said, "All equipment is guaranteed > >>to be non-radioactive". Some reassurance. :-) > > Speaking of new old scopes, a friend of mine is a surplus dealer. He > recently bought a huge lot of parts and equipment and got two Tek 7603s > that were still new in sealed boxs! No, I can't get you one. There's > already a waiting list for them! Does your friend have a 1A? spectrum analyser plugin for a 545? I have no use for it but always dreamed to have one ;-) e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From bwit at pobox.com Wed Nov 24 07:56:31 1999 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: MSVC In-Reply-To: <383B5EB0.46136CD@halcyon.com> References: <383B33FD.ED4A17C2@ancimail.prod.fedex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991124075631.008ffa40@ruffboy.com> Version 6 was interesting in that it was both DOS and 16 bit OS/2. Version 7 was the first version of C++ and was for DOS/Win16 only. I think version 8 was the first version to carry the "Visual C++" label. To the original poster, if Quick C is what you are looking for email me, I think I have a couple around here. If Borland Turbo C would do as well you can download versions 1 through (I think) 2.5 from the web. I've misplaced the URL but perhaps some kind soul here will provide it. Regards, Bob At 07:42 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote: >You're probably thinking of Microsoft Quick C for DOS. >It had a "low-resolution" (character) graphics interface >and was available for DOS as well as Windows 3.1. >If you search the Internet for surplus software sites, >you might find a copy around; I seem to remember seeing >some sites in the past that had older stuff like this, >but I don't recall exactly where. > >If you are comfortable with a command-line interface, >Microsoft C Version 6.0 was probably best version of >Microsoft C before Visual C++ (Version 8) came out. > >Dave > >Bill Farmer wrote: >> >> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do >> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 24 10:21:16 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <383BEC87.C610D17B@softstar.it> References: <3.0.1.16.19991124091242.22df3a70@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991124102116.4fc7399a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:47 PM 11/24/99 +0100, you wrote: > >Does your friend have a 1A? spectrum analyser plugin for a 545? I have no use >for it but always dreamed to have one ;-) Enrico, I doubt it. He deals mainly in componets. I'll ask next time I see him. Joe From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 08:49:25 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Spare BA* series chassi? Message-ID: <19991124144925.8599.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Good luck, I won't tell you how long it's taken me to get even a spare BA23 > and BA123 as backups. It took me a long time to find a BA123, too. Cost me a bit of money at the time as well. I've never seen them drop from the skies (but I have picked up $50 MicroVAX I's in the past). > Something to consider with the BA123's is that > they're more than just a computer, they're also a small table.. > ...Mine has a LA75 and a VT420 sitting on top of it, Beware of loading the top too heavily. My BA123 has a dent under one caster because someone probably sat on the corner or did something else unnice to it. I pounded it out as best I can, but that caster is still a couple millimeters higher than the other three. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 08:59:13 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: PDP-8/e restoration (was Re: Oscilloscopes)` Message-ID: <19991124145913.26333.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > How is your 8/e restoration going? > > john cf other message, but I know several things _are_ working: the bulbs, the PSU, both MS8-C cards, at least 90% of the KK8E board set. At the moment, I can't verify proper serial operation so I can't load diagnostic tapes. I have two boards - M865 and M8650. I have a homemade (tested) RS-232 cable for the M8650 and a 20mA cable missing the black Berg housing (Mate-n-Lok on one end, crimped on gold pin contacts on the other - no 40-pin connector body). The M865 has a 12" cable and a Mate-n-Lok 20mA connector on it, but I can't find my box of TTY cables (to hook up my VT220 to it). I still have this pr/s01 20mA portable papertape reader, but I still know nothing about it, especially baud rate. I haven't yet hauled a 'scope out to the place the -8's are at. That's one of the next steps. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From mallison at konnections.com Wed Nov 24 08:56:44 1999 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: MSVC Message-ID: <000801bf368c$205ab4c0$b37a3fd1@oemcomputer> http://community.borland.com/museum/ I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway. I was going to suggest this, but I thought I might have been seriously wrong about the Visual C thing.... -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Bob Withers To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 6:56 AM Subject: Re: MSVC >Version 6 was interesting in that it was both DOS and 16 bit OS/2. Version >7 was the first version of C++ and was for DOS/Win16 only. I think version >8 was the first version to carry the "Visual C++" label. > >To the original poster, if Quick C is what you are looking for email me, I >think I have a couple around here. If Borland Turbo C would do as well you >can download versions 1 through (I think) 2.5 from the web. I've misplaced >the URL but perhaps some kind soul here will provide it. > >Regards, >Bob > >At 07:42 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote: >>You're probably thinking of Microsoft Quick C for DOS. >>It had a "low-resolution" (character) graphics interface >>and was available for DOS as well as Windows 3.1. >>If you search the Internet for surplus software sites, >>you might find a copy around; I seem to remember seeing >>some sites in the past that had older stuff like this, >>but I don't recall exactly where. >> >>If you are comfortable with a command-line interface, >>Microsoft C Version 6.0 was probably best version of >>Microsoft C before Visual C++ (Version 8) came out. >> >>Dave >> >>Bill Farmer wrote: >>> >>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do >>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. >> >> > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 09:26:12 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards Message-ID: <19991124152612.20510.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations... > > Forget TTY, Forget OS/8, Forget the full spread of boards just the base CPU > and memory that's all. Then, so far, so good. As I said, it runs basic ops. The inchworm program is about as far as I can get without custom-crafting diag routines until I get a TTY online to read MAINDEC tapes. At the moment, all I have in the -8/e is the CPU, an MS8-C and an M8650. I toggled in an ASCII printing routine from the 1973 -8/e handbook (page 4-4, IIRC) and I didn't see anything appear on the terminal nor the RS-232 traffic light. If you happen to have a handy TTY test loop up your sleeve, then I'd love to see it. It makes it much harder to debug hardware when you have to debug your own diagnostic software at the same time. I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel. I would have thought that they were compatible. The OMNIBUS isn't all that complex. There's not a lot of room for variations. > Make that work then add pieces. when they are good > you can transfer them to the 8a. Here's the problem... I can only test so much of the -8/e with only the front panel and the docs I have (I don't have a sheaf of toggle-in diags to try or I would). Once I put the KK8E in the -8/a box, _all_ I can do is hit the boot switch. It doesn't boot. The KK8A sort-of boots. There's this enormous testing gap between what I can do on the -8/e with no ability to load in diag tapes and what I can do on the -8/a with only the OS to boot. If I at least had an -8/a front panel, I could do some testing in that frame as well. > The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and a logic probe will be adaquate > to shoot it if the switches and lights aren't enough. Beyond a possible dirty EXAM switch, I have no reason to suspect anything is wrong with the 8/e front panel. A secondary question: when WPS throws up the "ABC" at the start of the boot sequence, what happens between the letters? I have one disk that only shows the "A" and the CPU locks up. What might that suggest? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From jallain at databaseamerica.com Wed Nov 24 09:36:34 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Spare BA* series chassi? In-Reply-To: <19991124054659.24563.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Message-ID: <000001bf3691$b0e2e1c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) (on Nov24,1999 12:47 AM) asked: > Hi, all.. I've recently upgraded my microVAX II to a III and I have enough > spare qbus cards around to built another microVAX II, but unfortunently > no spare chassi.. I've scoured the general area and places like eBay and > i've not been able to track down anything, so I was wondering if ... One was last seen on eBay (OK, epay) over a month ago. I would expect to wait over a year to find another. It's a pretty specific request. An entire uVax would be a more probable find. FYI Computers:Hardware:Vintage:item DEC BA23AA Box / Base for VAX or PDP 11 Started 10/05/99 First bid $5.00, no. of bids 8 Ends 10/12/99 Currently $51.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=176390557 ...So it looks like its up to classiccmp. I've been most amazed with the list so far, the quality of the information has been fantastic. Happy Thanksgiving. John A. From lance at costanzo.net Wed Nov 24 09:25:27 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: MSVC Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991124072525.006fbc8c@costanzo.net> At 07:56 AM 11/24/1999 -0700, you wrote: >http://community.borland.com/museum/ >I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway. Skip the login crud: http://community.borland.com/museum/borland/software/ >>>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do >>>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS. http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/ Will any of these work for you? C 203 C 600 C 700 CRTL 700 (rtl for c7) QC 250 QC 200 Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 24 09:36:36 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Spare BA* series chassi? In-Reply-To: <19991124144925.8599.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991124093636.021394d0@pc> At 06:49 AM 11/24/99 -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >It took me a long time to find a BA123, too. Cost me a bit of money at the >time as well. I've never seen them drop from the skies (but I have picked >up $50 MicroVAX I's in the past). Two months ago, I posted: >Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:01:19 -0600 >To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: PDP 11/70s For Sale > >Before I forget, last week I saw a BA213 with a M9405 and three M9047 >in it. The module database at >is down, it appears, and I can't find another link like it right now. > >The unit was $20 at the UW-Madison (Wisconsin) surplus SWAP shop, >open Fridays 8 to 2. > >- John From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 09:55:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards In-Reply-To: <19991124152612.20510.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Then, so far, so good. As I said, it runs basic ops. The inchworm program > is about as far as I can get without custom-crafting diag routines until I > get a TTY online to read MAINDEC tapes. At the moment, all I have in the > -8/e is the CPU, an MS8-C and an M8650. I toggled in an ASCII printing > routine from the 1973 -8/e handbook (page 4-4, IIRC) and I didn't see anything > appear on the terminal nor the RS-232 traffic light. If you happen to have > a handy TTY test loop up your sleeve, then I'd love to see it. It makes it > much harder to debug hardware when you have to debug your own diagnostic > software at the same time. No I don't. First off make sure the "tty" is configured correctly. Real TTYs are wired with keyboard bit 7 high and all 8 reader bits active. This is hard to duplicate with terminal programs. The closest is 7bits with stick parity but that will not load tapes! > I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel. I > would have thought that they were compatible. The OMNIBUS isn't all that > complex. There's not a lot of room for variations. They are not compatable at the control level not the bus level. The KK8a was not designed with a "peripheral" reaching into it's registers and data paths. I'd bet if the kk8a runs in the 8e box the FP can display but only limited things. > Here's the problem... I can only test so much of the -8/e with only the > front panel and the docs I have (I don't have a sheaf of toggle-in diags > to try or I would). Once I put the KK8E in the -8/a box, _all_ I can do > is hit the boot switch. It doesn't boot. The KK8A sort-of boots. There isn't a sheet of diags. You do it by readuing and writing single locations and running small programs like the accumulator inchworm. > A secondary question: when WPS throws up the "ABC" at the start of the boot > sequence, what happens between the letters? I have one disk that only shows > the "A" and the CPU locks up. What might that suggest? No idea, maybe it's looking for a device? Allison From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Nov 24 09:59:41 1999 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Saving old documentation Message-ID: I just posted this to alt.sys.pdp10, but I think it's an appropriate inquiry for this list, too: So, I have a few old manuals: >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor utilities and such; >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? --Pat. From spicer at computerhistory.org Wed Nov 24 10:53:11 1999 From: spicer at computerhistory.org (Dag Spicer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991124085311.00c4fe40@mail.netcare.com> Dear Friends of Computer History, I would like to dispel a persistent meme that recurs on this list regarding The Computer Museum's non-destruction/sale/folding/spindling/mutilating of computer equipment. First, let us all take a deep breath and lower the temperature of the issue. Epithets and insults are not only unnecessary but unkind, unprofessional, and unworthy of the people within this group (and at the History Center) that genuinely seek to promote computer history by advancing solid, verifiable knowledge claims in an atmosphere of collegiality and mutual interest. Ok, now the issue (or non-issue, to be more precise). The Computer Museum and now The Computer Museum History Center is a federally-registered non-profit corporation whose mission is to preserve and promote the study of computer history and to serve as an international resource in the history of computing. To this end, it employs, with a very modest staff of 5 full-time persons, all reasonable and modern methods to actively collect and disseminate computer history across five separate collections: hardware, software, media (photos, video, films), ephemera, and documentation. It collects broadly across time and industry with no particular institutional, corporate, or personal axes to grind and this ecumenism has made it a trusted source in computer history by the media, scholars, authors, intellectual property specialists, and the general public. The Computer Museum in Boston has recently merged with the Museum of Science there since there was, essentially, insufficient public support for its activities--even after its change of focus to a hands-on, interactive "science center" model. Consequently, the historical collection of the Museum, one of the finest in the world, was moved to the west coast where, in the midst of silicon valley, there would be a financial, regional, and industrial climate that would allow the collection to be seen by the public in an environment supportive of computer history. At this time, the new entity changed names to become "The Computer Museum History Center," reflecting its institutional focus of being a place where computer history can live without financial concerns--which, as you all know, is the ultimate rate-limiting concept behind computer preservation (as well as time/spousal tolerance!). As I see it, the thought that the Museum "sells," "trashes," or "scraps" artifacts is untenable. In nearly four years as curator and manager of historical collectons at the Center, I have no personal knowledge of any such activities. On the contraty, in the best tradition of computer history, artifacts tend to move in the opposite direction--i.e. FROM the landfill/dumpster/garage TO the Center. It is thus somewhat distressting to here claims to the contrary by individuals who, again to my knowledge, have made not the slightest attempt to contact the History Center in order to discuss the issue or otherwise substantiate their public, and frequently insulting, claims. For example, why would "a list" of such non-practices be desired? Similarly, I see little point in addressing the intemperate remarks/epithets used by the individuals below. As a general principle, however, the group should understand the way Museums operate. I believe there have developed two solitudes which I am eager to bridge: on the one hand, the private collector and, on the other hand, the more formal institutional home for computer history. Private collectors bring incredible passion and subject matter knowledge to their efforts; Museums allow long-term preservation (beyond any one individual's lifespan) and an insitutional footprint for computer history that allows widespread propagation and display of computer history. Both communities need each other! Museums, as part of their legal and institutional mission, exchange and loan artifacts with other institutions of equivalent standing (I say "equivalent" mainly to ensure artifacts are protected and cared for). Museums also "de-accession" items, meaning they remove items from inventory. There has not been a single such de-accessioning in my tenure at the Center and, as any Museum person anywhere can confirm, de-accessioning is an exceedingly rare and messy procedure--the Museum Board must be convened and solid curatorial justification given as to why an item should not form part of a specific collection. It is never taken lightly and undertaken only with great circumspection. Assuming something were to be so de-accsessioned, however, the first order of business would be to ask other Museums if they were interested in adding the item to their collections; if not, the item would likely be placed at public auction (in the interest of fairness--to not privilege or otherwise show favoritism to any one private collector). This procedure is legal, ethical, and standard operating procedure for Museums around the world. It may be painful to be "scooped" or otherwise see that the items we are particularly fond of are becoming increasingly valuable, but that is the way of the world and a sign that the general public as a whole is beginning to realize that vaue of what we collect. Even given this framework, I know of no disposal/auctioning of machines as described below; to assert that the Museum would throw out an Alto seems sheer folly. Again, it is disheartening to keep hearing the same baseless claims by individuals in this group with respect to the Museum's collections policy. These non-truths reverberate and feed on themselves--I really have to wonder for whose benefit they are made given that, again, a simple e-mail to me could have resolved the issue. Let's move on. How can our two communities work together to preserve the history of the machines and people who invented and used them? 1. I invite everyone on this list to visit the History Center in Mountain View, California. 2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it and we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that need to be done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me a line if you're interested. 3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits a month--what a way to get the word out about computer history! 4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest. 5. Help the History Center by bringing interesting donation possibilities to its attention. 6. Become a member! We have probably the largest single collection of electronic computing artifacts in the world--yet we are swamped and could really used the help--$$ or time--in our preservation efforts. 7. Spread the word that what we do is worthwhile. If I haven't managed to convince you, please call me personally and I would be pleased to talk with you, on any topic. 8. Join our regular computer history mailing list-- a great way to stay informed about our activities. I hope I have helped explain how the Center operates and that it is working very hard to become worthy of the community that supports it. I fear there has been little communication between list members and the Center, something I am eager to remedy. When people stop talking to one another, it's the first sign that trouble lies ahead. Please get in touch and join us--together we can build something unique in the world that will last long after we are gone and at which future generations will marvel! We're all in this together. Won't you join us? Best wishes, Dag. -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer@computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 24 10:30:50 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW! Message-ID: <006a01bf3699$450f73c0$7b76e2d1@default> This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at). In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL". This *mini* was built in 1958. I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many tube flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front panel with some program control switches. Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting through the memory control schematics). Its memory control system contains: Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow, decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage... Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space) OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory array. (5 stages X 256 bit) OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D converter (tubes) (sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register .. Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory) Getting an instruction set here - (so far): Add +1 Add Add -1 (subtract) Compliment Add with carry reset (jump?) stop next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes..... CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet) Power supply is nasty printer control modules - yuck! Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus (light bulbs) Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time" more programming instructions: print clear to zero display I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT. This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D and D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires. Anyone hear of such a unit? Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from there. john From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 24 10:42:50 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: UPDATE: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW! Message-ID: <007901bf369a$f239c900$7b76e2d1@default> Just found the clock module: It ran at 5 Khz. john -----Original Message----- From: John B To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 12:35 PM Subject: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW! >This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the >list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at). > >In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL". > >This *mini* was built in 1958. > >I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many tube >flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front >panel with some program control switches. > >Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting >through the memory control schematics). > >Its memory control system contains: > >Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all >these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow, >decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage... > > >Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space) > >OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory array. >(5 stages X 256 bit) > >OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D >converter (tubes) > >(sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register .. >Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory) > >Getting an instruction set here - (so far): > >Add +1 >Add >Add -1 (subtract) >Compliment >Add with carry >reset (jump?) >stop > > >next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes..... > >CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet) > >Power supply is nasty > >printer control modules - yuck! > >Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus >(light bulbs) > >Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET >switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a >cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time" > >more programming instructions: > >print >clear to zero >display > > >I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming >area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT. >This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D and >D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires. > >Anyone hear of such a unit? > >Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d >subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from >there. > >john > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 11:48:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991124085311.00c4fe40@mail.netcare.com> Message-ID: > As I see it, the thought that the Museum "sells," "trashes," or "scraps" > artifacts is untenable. In nearly four years as curator and manager of > historical collectons at the Center, I have no personal knowledge of any > such activities. On the contraty, in the best tradition of computer Four years is a terribly short time compared to many memories here. Some of the events are referencing things that have happend before that window. Now if you can show they didn't happen then we can dispel what can be urban legend that would be a good thing. Likely history is not in favor of that. Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1, PDP-6 and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status? > 1. I invite everyone on this list to visit the History Center in Mountain > View, California. Little chance, gotta have money to get there. > 2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it and > we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that need to be > done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me a line if > you're interested. No interest, much to far away. > 6. Become a member! We have probably the largest single collection of > electronic computing artifacts in the world--yet we are swamped and could > really used the help--$$ or time--in our preservation efforts. There are other groups also desperate for attention. > 7. Spread the word that what we do is worthwhile. If I haven't managed to > convince you, please call me personally and I would be pleased to talk with > you, on any topic. You have not dispelled history of 10+ years. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Nov 24 12:04:51 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > As I see it, the thought that the Museum "sells," "trashes," or "scraps" > > artifacts is untenable. In nearly four years as curator and manager of > > historical collectons at the Center, I have no personal knowledge of any > > such activities. On the contraty, in the best tradition of computer > > Four years is a terribly short time compared to many memories here. Some > of the events are referencing things that have happend before that window. > > Now if you can show they didn't happen then we can dispel what can be > urban legend that would be a good thing. Likely history is not in favor > of that. > > Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1, PDP-6 > and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status? Well... FWIW I've been to the collection twice now (during the last two VCF's), and while I can't speak for the TCMHC I can say that I have seen (touched, and have pictures) of the PDP-1, as well as a PDP-8 ('straight', desktop configuration), PDP-10 and a KL-10. I will admit that I have not seen a PDP-6 or PDP-7, but have not had the opportunity to snoop in the 'warehouse'... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Nov 24 12:06:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Saving old documentation Message-ID: <991124130625.20200b75@trailing-edge.com> >So, I have a few old manuals: > > >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. > >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Yeah, well, that's the rub. Doug Jones wrote up his efforts to preserve of PDP-8 paperbacks, and he begins: Once you have concluded that a paperback is beond repair, the first step in preserving its contents is to complete its destruction. Slice off the glued spine of the paperback so that the pages come apart as separate sheets. You can cut the sheets from the spine with an X-acto knife, or you can find a shop with a paper shear that will cut the spine loose. Doug then goes into a very detailed step-by-step description of producing an archival-quality duplicate of the original information. For further details on Doug's efforts, see http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From aek at spies.com Wed Nov 24 12:17:47 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Alto file types Message-ID: <199911241817.KAA13763@spies.com> This may be of general interest, or if not, at least it will go into the mailing list archive.. some Alto file extensions Alto file names are case-independent .run executable file .cm command file (executive instructions, like CP/M batch files) .boot bootable file .d BCPL definition file (like C .h files) .bcpl BCPL source file .syms BCPL symbol file .asm Alto assembly language source file .mu Alto microcode source file .br BCPL binary file .decl BCPL declarations file (same as .d) .al Alto font file .bravo Bravo text file .press Press document file .mesa Mesa source file .bcd Mesa binary file .image Mesa executable file .draw Draw document file .log Log files .st Smalltalk source file Since XDE is a descendent of the Alto Mesa environment, many of the extensions (.cm .mesa .bcd) carried forward onto D machines. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 24 12:24:11 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Spare BA* series chassi? In-Reply-To: <19991124144925.8599.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> Good luck, I won't tell you how long it's taken me to get even a spare BA23 >> and BA123 as backups. > >It took me a long time to find a BA123, too. Cost me a bit of money at the >time as well. I've never seen them drop from the skies (but I have picked >up $50 MicroVAX I's in the past). I got lucky, my spare BA123 did basically drop from the sky along with a Sigma chassis, and a bunch of other stuff. The Sigma Rackmount now houses the MV3 that was in the BA123, and the BA123 is even more stripped than when I got it. Still I have one that is all there now :^) and in a pinch I can use the spare. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Nov 24 12:19:21 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling) Message-ID: <80256833.00653FE9.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > According to my numbers: AL 210 Cu 380 Ag 408 - just I have no expliciet > temperature named (and I'm somewhat confused, since I belived that lambda > is not depending on any temperature, but rather a coefficient(?) to determinate > the conductance (?) - otherwise you'd have to integrate lambda over the > temperaturerange within the object (remember, its w/mK, where K is dT)) For really accurate studies you do indeed have to do just that. Thermal conductivity varies with temperature in much the same way as electrical conductivity - and is (AFAIK) similarly infinite in superconductors, which no doubt helps in cooling them... >> Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is: >> 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of copper. > > Adds more and more heat - an infinite loop, where you have to add a bigger > part to the 'interchange' on the hot side, hust for transporting the Yes, but not much more. I have never seen a figure for efficiency of peltier chips, but I have always assumed around 200%, i.e. removes about twice as much heat as it generates. (YMMV - Efficiency varies with temperature difference) > Peltiers own heat. I found it better to optimise the transport within the > interchange element (as with using Cu or Ag, and mor efficient flow > structures) than just adding a Peltier. It's not about geting the Possibly true in a lot of applications ... > target temperature as low as possible, but rather transporting away > ad much (thermal) power as possible - that will inherently keep the > target from overheating. I have not much experience with cooling CPUs, but with other semiconductors (mainly power transistors) I have found that the biggest thermal resistance in the circuit is almost invariably semiconductor to package exterior. The amount of heat you can remove depends therefore mainly on maximum allowable temperature of semiconductor and temperature of package surface. Getting the package surface down another few degrees will in a lot of cases more than make up for the extra heat the peltier chip produces. It may even do so without extra cooling on the water (etc.) side - a few degrees lower on the IC balanced by a few degrees higher on the water may transport all the extra heet you need. Especially if your cooling is decent (low thermal resistance) between water and ambient. > Also, if we just remove the heat to keep the device (and all parts) > not below environment temperature we avoide all probems with > condensation (word?). We don't have to isolate all cooled parts > wathertight. Saving again a lot of recurces. Condensation could be a problem, although it didn't seem to be in project EUNUCH. Some sort of drying arrangement for the ventilation should be sufficient though - this too can be done with cooling... >> 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the >> refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No >> intervening water circuit. > >> 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and >> supply it with plenty of fans... > > Or just use water and a real _big_ radiator to expell the heat. > After all, it's again about radiation a specific amount of > thermal power - and this can be done by either a high delta-T > or just a biger surface (phi = lamda * S * delta-T / delta). Still keep the radiator well away from the system and supply it with plenty of fans! See above for my reasons for keeping the temperature down... > Conclusion: I belive that a 'soft' aproach can give the same > result in most situation without spending endless resources > to push a single idea solution (brute force). Perhaps. But your solution is limited by the ambient temperature, the maximum chip temperature and the thermal resistance within the IC. For any better heat transfer than that, you _have_ to cool below ambient. I was simply exploring ways of doing this. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 24 14:29:00 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: FA: Lots of manuals and other stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991124142900.71f750a6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, I sent this message to the CC list auction notification address but it never appeared in my mailbaox and I havent gotten anything from that serrvice for a long time so I guess it's not working any more. I've decided to clear out some of my excess books and stuff so I've put a BUNCH of manuals on E-bay. I'm starting with IBM Technical Reference manuals and a big load of DEC manuals. Some of them are pretty unusual like the two volume Tech Ref for the IBM Converible PC. I'm also listing many old Intel books. I have a HUGE pile of HP and DEC manuals that I will be listing. Many of them date back to the early '70s. I'll be adding some DEC and HP hardware when I have time. I'll keep adding stuff so keep checking back. Here's the URL for the first book, "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=206460875". You can click on View Seller's Other Auctions to get a list of everything. Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 24 12:44:40 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: BA23 available! Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991124103913.0213c7d0@mcmanis.com> I have a BA23 that was "hidden" inside a Sigma Design expando cabinet. (looks kinda like a BA123 except that it has a door on the front, incompatible disk mounting slides and a weird "slave" power supply. I believe the BA23 to be in good working order, I'll pull it out and test it (I know the slave PSU is toast) It is in Sunnyvale CA (94087), I'm willing to part with it for 1.5x shipping however shipping in this case is "take it down to the packing store and have them pack and ship it" since I haven't a box or sufficient packing material to cover it. Because it is in the Sigma cabinet it doesn't have the standard "DEC shelf" for mounting in a rack. It does have a uVAX II badge on it and no drives. Email me if you want it, first come first served... --Chuck From Maddog1331 at aol.com Wed Nov 24 13:03:45 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Convergent technologies workSlate, atari computer lot, etc for sale on ebay Message-ID: <0.2fda1080.256d9091@aol.com> Hey all, I hate to solicit bids, but thought you folks might be interested in the stuff I have up for auction on ebay. Here is my seller list: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw -cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=maddog1331&include=0 &since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 I have a bunch of stuff, and have to clear some of it out so I can have some room for a couple of nice systems...the apartment is like full! Thanks for looking, and I have other stuff I will be putting on there soon :-) A bunch of Timex Sinclair stuff, among others. Mark From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 13:50:32 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards Message-ID: <19991124195032.26906.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > No I don't. First off make sure the "tty" is configured correctly. Real > TTYs are wired with keyboard bit 7 high and all 8 reader bits active. > This is hard to duplicate with terminal programs. For now, I'm using a VT220 as an output-only device. I haven't gotten as far as attempting input. > > I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel... > > They are not compatable at the control level not the bus level. The KK8a > was not designed with a "peripheral" reaching into it's registers and data > paths. I'd bet if the kk8a runs in the 8e box the FP can display but only > limited things. That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA "reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From oajones at bright.net Wed Nov 24 13:49:14 1999 From: oajones at bright.net (O. Alan Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Floppy Drive specifications Message-ID: <383C4139.6408BED5@bright.net> Can anyone tell me where I can find Floppy Drive specifications on the internet? Right now I am looking for specs on a Mitsubishi MF504B-318U 5 1/4" drive. I forget if this drive is DD or HD. I have some other drives I need to get the specs on too. Thanks in advance... --Alan From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 14:06:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards In-Reply-To: <19991124195032.26906.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA > "reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought > that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS. Via a cable to the KK8A. From the FP perspective Omnibus is but not totally. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 12:56:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Yet more on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: <199911240213.SAA10143@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 23, 99 06:13:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/a18284f1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 13:20:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <01be01bf3622$c1ab9a20$8372e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 23, 99 09:22:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/15c0e43c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 13:27:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911240258.VAA01456@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 23, 99 09:58:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1113 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/88dbc8b9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 13:33:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <008701bf362b$6fa15180$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 23, 99 08:23:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/a6bcfe1b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 14:00:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <383BEC87.C610D17B@softstar.it> from "Enrico Badella" at Nov 24, 99 02:47:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/8cce7136/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 13:40:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <199911240338.WAA21423@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 23, 99 10:38:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1186 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/a72e6593/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 14:09:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW! In-Reply-To: <006a01bf3699$450f73c0$7b76e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 24, 99 11:30:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/85a2937a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 24 13:57:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 24, 99 02:31:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/e6fb9439/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 24 14:29:19 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:43 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991124085311.00c4fe40@mail.netcare.com> from Dag Spicer at "Nov 24, 1999 08:53:11 am" Message-ID: <199911242029.UAA01927@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Dear Friends of Computer History, > > > Let's move on. How can our two communities work together to preserve the > history of the machines and people who invented and used them? > I dont suppose the museum accepts computers on an indefinite 'loan' from private collectors? I might be willing to loan machines to a museum for many years... Machines such as Sun 1/100U, Terak 8510/a, or a MicroAce (the american made, and subsequently found to be illegally made clone of the Sinclair ZX80, which is exceedingly rare). I'm sure there are others that have similarly rare artifacts that they are preserving, which they wouldnt mind loaning to a museum for a decade or three so that others could see and appreciate the items. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 24 14:09:28 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? Message-ID: <001901bf36b7$d0672940$7b76e2d1@default> I told a factory I did not want this stuff last year (I forgot about this PDP-10). It seems they never got around to scrapping it and the scrapper out of Georgia never picked it up. I got a call just now to see if I want the load for .. (well $$). I don't know if the PDP-10 is still in it... They wrapped the cases in cardboard and moved them to *stores*. I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that the guy on the phone could get at said: Vax 6000 SA600 ??? (what's that?) RK05 (or 7) TU81 Some Fujitsu junk. I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. Anyone here know what a SA600 is? As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. The PDP-10 is the only thing worth restoring (if it's still in there). Will update everyone by the end of the week. john From spicer at computerhistory.org Wed Nov 24 15:17:28 1999 From: spicer at computerhistory.org (Dag Spicer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Dag Spicer Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991124131728.00efc570@mail.netcare.com> -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Offices: Building T12-A Exhibit Area: Building 126 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer@computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V T12 Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 24 15:18:31 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? References: <001901bf36b7$d0672940$7b76e2d1@default> Message-ID: <9911241620010R.00500@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that >the guy on the phone could get at said: > >Vax 6000 >SA600 ??? (what's that?) >RK05 (or 7) >TU81 >Some Fujitsu junk. > >I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. ...likely not junk. They make some kickass supers. I wonder if that system is complete. >Anyone here know what a SA600 is? It's a rack full of RA-series drives. >As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). > >I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had >heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too >big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. Grrrrrr. -Dave McGuire From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 24 14:31:34 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? Message-ID: <003e01bf36ba$e6811760$7b76e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >>I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that >>the guy on the phone could get at said: >> >>Vax 6000 >>SA600 ??? (what's that?) >>RK05 (or 7) >>TU81 >>Some Fujitsu junk. >> >>I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. > > ...likely not junk. They make some kickass supers. I wonder if that system >is complete. It is complete. I saw it in the computer room when they had it running (I bought the system it replaced a few years ago!). I know the computer ran fast and had *loads* of memory. The problem they had was their own employees did not like using it. They ran it less than 4 years. > >>Anyone here know what a SA600 is? > > It's a rack full of RA-series drives. > Ahhh, I should have remembered that! , thanks... I guess more weight :-( .. This Vax 6000 was in the lab so it had quite a few toys hooked up to it (hopefully some good boards to rip out of it). >>As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). >> >>I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had >>heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too >>big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. > > Grrrrrr. > Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. I hope someone out there can use the boards in their minis.... > -Dave McGuire > From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Nov 24 16:39:10 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Saving old documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19991124171612.00abd100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:59 AM 11/24/99 -0500, Pat Barron said something like: >I just posted this to alt.sys.pdp10, but I think it's an appropriate >inquiry for this list, too: > >So, I have a few old manuals: > > >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. > >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Tough call. They are on their way to self-destruction because of that doggone cheap acid paper. This indicates they will be eventually unusable without disintegrating in your hands. Libraries and book collectors use some sort of process which neutralizes the acid and virtually reduces degradation. I haven't investigated this myself but I would suspect it could be somewhat expensive relative to the actual value of the document. Maybe when the document is relatively far along with acid destruction as you say yours are, neutralization may be fruitless. Anybody have any comments on that neutralizing process? I think to simply preserve the information I would have to carefully dismantle the manual page by page and copy them using a high quality scanner or Xerox machine. The loss of the *information* will at least be prevented. With that process I would be able to use the original covers and make a replica manual (plus a coverless second 'working' manual I could use at my programming terminal). I've got a couple of the DEC Handbooks which are breaking down like this -including the 1976 PDP-11/10 Handbook which I think is the first in that series. These Handbooks would be quite tricky to preserve in either manner as they're thick and page size is small. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 16:49:51 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Saving old documentation Message-ID: <199911242249.RAA29664@world.std.com> > >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. I have exactly the same books... >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Thanks for asking this... I'm interested in the answer as well... I also think that they would be destroyed by the attempt to scan. So the question becomes, Are you attempting to preserve the actual documentation, or the information contained within... I'm not sure which direction to go myself... but at least in one or two cases of the above (and other -10 manuals), I have a copy which *could* be damaged to scan it in if I were to decide to do it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 24 16:39:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Saving old documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19991124223942.14330.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, > have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them > in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would > require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books > immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Personally, when things get that bad I'm inclined to remove the binding to get the best possible scan. Of course, naturally I would never do that to a manual I didn't own, unless I had the owner's permission. Anyhow, I've slowly been scanning such things to put on www.36bit.org. I use a command-line program under Linux to scan the images into .pbm format at 300 DPI. Then I use pnmtotiff to compress them (losslessly) into TIFF Class F Group 4 files. This type of compression is very well suited to text and line art, but not for continuous-tone images; for that I use JPEG format. Finally, I use a program called "g4pdf" which I hacked together based on Thomas Metz's "pdflib" and "imagepdf" to import the images into a PDF (Acrobat) file. Once the images are in a PDF file, they can be run through Adobe Acrobat (the full version, not the free Acrobat Reader) for OCR. This is the only part of the process for which I use commercial software. The OCR isn't fantastic, which is why I use a mode that preserves the full bitmap and puts the OCR results as "hidden" text behind the image. That way you can view the document as scanned, but still have the ability to use the Acrobat "find" feature for text searches. Many people complain about not liking PDF, but it's the only format that both natively supports G4 compression, and for which viewers are fairly widely available. People always ask for .GIF, .JPG, or .TIFF files, but they have problems: GIF doesn't compress nearly as well. JPG is lossy and introduces artifacts. If you keep the "quality" setting high, it doesn't introduce as many artifacts, but it doesn't compress well either. TIFF Class F Group 4 would be great, but every time I've tried to distribute files in that format, I've gotten lots of complaints about my TIFF files being "broken", because people have TIFF viewers that don't handle that format. (TIFF is *NOT* a single format.) I've been meaning to write a web page about this, and provide the tools I use for Linux (and maybe a DOS or Windows port), but I haven't gotten around to it. You can see a few of the PDP-10 related documents I've scanned at: http://www.36bit.org/dec/manuals/ I've scanned two volumes of the TOPS-10 Software Notebooks since then, but I haven't yet put them on the web page. Eric From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 17:11:53 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy Message-ID: <199911242311.SAA12524@world.std.com> >> Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1, >> PDP-6 and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status? I essentially asked the same question in private mail... I had only heard about the pdp-6 (from Stanford, if I remember correctly... and working when gifted). I hadn't heard about the others, but am suitably interested in specific answers... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 24 16:55:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991124225512.14430.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison asks about the disposition of some of the Computer Museum's collection: > Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1, PDP-6 > and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status? The PDP-1 is definitely in the Computer Musuem History Center in Mountain View. I've seen it with my own eyes. When it was in Boston they reportedly fired it up once a year to show Steve "Slug" Russel's "SPACEWAR!" game. However, as I understand it they have not yet tried to operate it in Mountain View. I hadn't heard about the PDP-7. The PDP-6 is the one that many of us are indignant about. The "facts" seem to be: 1) DEC contributed a bunch of hardware to help found The Computer Museum, including a PDP-6. 2) The Computer Museum sold some PDP-6 modules in their gift shop. These modules may or may not have been from the aforementioned PDP-6. 3) The whereabouts of the PDP-6 are now unknown. The conclusion that people have reached is that the PDP-6 was parted out. Regardless of the veracity of point 2, no one has successfully explained the chain of events leading from point 1 to point 3. However, I would like to point out that if the PDP-6 was in fact parted out, it almost certainly would have happened prior to the founding of The Computer Museum History Center. It seems clear, based not just on Dag's word but also on the experiences of several of my friends who volunteer for TCMHC projects, that any sort of problem like this would not be likely to happen today. TCMHC is now expecting a shipment of more equipment from DEC, which is claimed to contain one of every type of computer DEC made in the early days. So perhaps if we're lucky there will be another PDP-6 that can be restored (if needed) and preserved. Eric From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 24 17:34:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? In-Reply-To: <003e01bf36ba$e6811760$7b76e2d1@default> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991124153222.02221bd0@mcmanis.com> At 03:31 PM 11/24/99 -0500, John B wrote: >Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my >wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. Well there is a difference between scrapping it and offering it to someone on the list who might be willing to take it whole and keep it running. I suspect that was what the "grrrring" was about. Its even ok to say, "This is what I think I can get from 'ebay souvenirs" and if anyone wants to match it they get first dibs." This crowd is partial to keeping things running, --Chuck From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Wed Nov 24 17:24:39 1999 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (jfedorko@virtualadmin.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: FW: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Firman Kistler, Big Shot Productions [mailto:firmankistler@mailgate.bigshot.com] On Behalf Of Firman Kistler, Big Shot Productions Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 3:15 PM To: Aunt Mick; Joel Fedorko; Lauren DiNatle; Mike Davis (Tank); Tim Hughes; Tim Hunt Subject: << You might be in a country church if....... 1. The doors are never locked. 2. The Call to Worship is "Y'all come on in!" 3. People grumble about Noah letting coyotes on the Ark. 4. The Preacher says, "I'd like to ask Bubba to help take up the offering" and five guys stand up. 5. The restrooms are outside. 6. Opening day of deer hunting season is recognized as an official church holiday. 7. A member requests to be buried in his four-wheel drive truck because, "I ain't ever been in a hole it couldn't get me out of". 8. In the annual stewardship drive there is at least one pledge of "two calves". 9. Never in its entire 100-year history has one of its pastors had to buy any meat or vegetables. 10. When it rains, everybody's smiling. 11. Prayers regarding the weather are a standard part of every worship service. 12. A singing group is known as the "OK Chorale". 13. The church directory doesn't have last names. 14. The pastor wears boots. 15. Four generations of one family sit together in worship every Sunday. 16. The only time people lock their cars in the parking lot is during the summer and then only so their neighbors can't leave them a bag of squash. 17. There is no such thing as a "secret" sin. 18. Baptism is referred to as "branding". 19. There is a special fund-raiser for a new septic tank. 20. Finding and returning lost sheep is not just a parable. 21. You miss worship one Sunday morning and by 2 O'clock that afternoon you have had a dozen calls inquiring about your health. 22. High notes on the organ sets dogs in the parking lot to howling. 23. When Jesus fed the 5,000, people wonder whether the two fish were bass or catfish. 24. People think "Rapture" is what happens when you lift something too heavy. 25. The cemetery is in such barren ground that people are buried with a sack of fertilizer to help them rise on Judgment Day. 26. It's not heaven, but you can see heaven from there. 27. The final words of the benediction are, "Y'all come on back now, ya hear". Firman Kistler -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fonts.dat Type: application/fonttable Size: 22 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/9e13f50e/fonts.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: styles.dat Type: application/styles Size: 42 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991124/9e13f50e/styles.bin From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Wed Nov 24 18:01:29 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991124153222.02221bd0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 03:31 PM 11/24/99 -0500, John B wrote: > >Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my > >wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. > > Well there is a difference between scrapping it and offering it to someone > on the list who might be willing to take it whole and keep it running. I > suspect that was what the "grrrring" was about. Its even ok to say, "This > is what I think I can get from 'ebay souvenirs" and if anyone wants to > match it they get first dibs." > > This crowd is partial to keeping things running, To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I still have trouble finding places to put all my stuff. And my wife is constantly at the brink of "fed-up" with my pitiful little lot and day-long roadtrips to pick up more "junk." Additionally, it's a lot of work to negotiate the pickup/delivery of large, heavy, difficult-to-ship things as well. Not everyone has the time and energy to do that...even as a labor of love. I applaud John for the work he puts into the restoration of the systems he does keep and for the time and effort he puts into sharing it with others (great web page). He obviously has an interest in classic computers that goes beyond how much gold or aluminum is contained within. Aaron From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 18:02:28 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Debugging ONMIBUS cards Message-ID: <19991125000228.9382.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA > > "reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought > > that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS. > > Via a cable to the KK8A. From the FP perspective Omnibus is but not > totally. Where does the cable plug into the KK8A? Did I miss a 16-pin DIP header somewhere? There are no Berg connectors. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From mew_jac at swbell.net Wed Nov 24 18:30:03 1999 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: another 11/60 References: <199911242249.RAA29664@world.std.com> Message-ID: <383C830B.3A06@swbell.net> >>>> Contact the guy at the bottom Well, since the 11/60 on the west coast went so quickly, I thought I'd post the DEC items that I plan to move out in the next week... We are moving our warehouse, and the following items are available for best offer: (all items are for sale "as-is", no guarantees. I will not ship these items unless explicitly noted. All items are located in a warehouse with a truck-height loading dock.) PDP 11/60: processor and memory boards. In a double wide rack with space up above for 4 (2x2) RLO2 or other drives. (drives not included.) I also have a spare set of boards for this system. If no one takes it, the boards will survive but the chassis will not. (Note to newbies: this system is huge and weighs much more than you.) PDP 11/35: processor, chassis, front panel. A very large collector's item. PDP 11/34: processor, chassis, front panel. 8 RP06 packs -- still in original boxes. These are actually Nashua 4472 packs, but they should work in an RP06 drive. I will ship these for the cost of shipping plus $10 or best offer. TU77 tape drive. removed from a DECsystem20 installation. RK07 drive (28 MB); I think I have a few packs, too. RK05 drives (2 drives, 2.5MB each) RL01 drive (5MB); plus a few packs. RX01 dual 8" floppy drive. I can't find the (CPU-side) controller card. TU80 tape drive: dead, may be good for parts. RA80 disk drive (121MB?) not working, may be good for parts. VT100 terminals - working condition VT52 terminals - working condition VT220 terminals - working condition Decwriter III (LA120) - works fine. Please send your best offers by email. Hurry, these fine items will (must) go quickly!!! --al. Alan Sieving, ars@quickware.com or ars@world.std.com Quickware Engineering & Design, 225 Riverview Ave, Newton, MA, 02466-1358 W: 617-964-5900, FAX: 617-964-5951 800-237-1185 for fast PDP-11's. -- --al. Alan Sieving, ars@quickware.com or ars@world.std.com Quickware Engineering & Design, 225 Riverview Ave, Newton, MA, 02466-1358 W: 617-964-5900, FAX: 617-964-5951 800-237-1185 for fast PDP-11's. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Nov 24 19:05:05 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? References: <003e01bf36ba$e6811760$7b76e2d1@default> Message-ID: <007e01bf36e1$1d20e5e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John B To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, 25 November 1999 7:01 Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? > >>Anyone here know what a SA600 is? > > > > It's a rack full of RA-series drives. Probable makeup:- 2 x SA70's with total of 8 RA7x drives. (RA70's are 250Mb SDI drives, they are the standard fitment in such racks. Could have any mix of 7x drives up to 1.5Gb? each. House brick size, the 2 SA70 enclosures in the cabinet take about the same area as a single RA8x drive. (But weigh less) 3 RA8x drives, probably 81 or 82. 480 & 620 Mb respectively. Big suckers 64Kg each. > Ahhh, I should have remembered that! , thanks... I guess more weight -( .. > This Vax 6000 was in the lab so it had quite a few toys hooked up to it > (hopefully some good boards to rip out of it). If you could post a list of the board numbers, we can tell you exactly what it has. > >>As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay > souvenirs). You'd probably do better offering them here first, depending on what's in it. A 6000 is often a classic, depending on what model/year of man etc.. It could contain up to 6 cpus & 256mb of ram. 5 different cpu types too. > >>I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips > had > >>heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and > too > >>big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. Again, perhaps offer it complete first, on Ebay if you prefer. Whilst not strictly classic, it may well be a supercomputer of some kind, which is a valuable device even now, to some people. Worth checking it out.... > > > > Grrrrrr. > > > > > Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my > wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. Don't be too hard on him, considering this list is devoted to preserving things like these, it is an understandable response to something as unusual as a Fujitsu Super becoming scrap metal for tooth fillings, and as a collector of 6000's, I only scrap ones that are really beat up, since they are good hobbyist systems, despite the physical size. (They are low power consumption ~ 500w) Put it this way, if I was in the US, I'd take 'em off your hands complete. > I hope someone out there can use the boards in their minis.... IF you are going to part out the 6000, make sure you get the backplane connections etc for the various boards to go with them. FWIW a "basic" 6000 would contain (at minimum) 1 cpu & 64mb ram. (XMI) 200 or 300 series cpus are the most common. a couple of XMI/BI & BI/XMI interface cards 1 or more Ethernet cards, usually BI, but I have seen XMI ones. either :- CI interface to talk to a HSC50/70/90 whatever (If you find one of these buried in the haul somewhere, that would prove it) Again, usually BI, but have seen an XMI version. This indicates a Vaxcluster, so there might well be more than one Vax in the haul. or a KDB50 SDI/STI interface or two, for direct connection to the drives. Regards Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From at258 at osfn.org Wed Nov 24 19:08:06 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: <19991124225512.14430.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: The Computer Museum seemed to engender a remarkable amount of ill feeling in the East, not alleviated by the flight of the collection from Boston. Daq is the beneficiary of that great reservoir of suspicion and distrust. He certainly has his work cut out for him, but being forthcoming and addressing these concerns could go a long way towards settling them. On 24 Nov 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Allison asks about the disposition of some of the Computer Museum's > collection: > > > Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1, PDP-6 > > and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status? > > The PDP-1 is definitely in the Computer Musuem History Center in Mountain > View. I've seen it with my own eyes. > > When it was in Boston they reportedly fired it up once a year to > show Steve "Slug" Russel's "SPACEWAR!" game. However, as I understand > it they have not yet tried to operate it in Mountain View. > > I hadn't heard about the PDP-7. The PDP-6 is the one that many of us > are indignant about. The "facts" seem to be: > > 1) DEC contributed a bunch of hardware to help found The Computer Museum, > including a PDP-6. > > 2) The Computer Museum sold some PDP-6 modules in their gift shop. These > modules may or may not have been from the aforementioned PDP-6. > > 3) The whereabouts of the PDP-6 are now unknown. > > The conclusion that people have reached is that the PDP-6 was parted out. > Regardless of the veracity of point 2, no one has successfully explained > the chain of events leading from point 1 to point 3. > > However, I would like to point out that if the PDP-6 was in fact parted > out, it almost certainly would have happened prior to the founding of > The Computer Museum History Center. It seems clear, based not just on > Dag's word but also on the experiences of several of my friends who > volunteer for TCMHC projects, that any sort of problem like this would > not be likely to happen today. > > TCMHC is now expecting a shipment of more equipment from DEC, which > is claimed to contain one of every type of computer DEC made in the > early days. So perhaps if we're lucky there will be another PDP-6 > that can be restored (if needed) and preserved. > > Eric > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ndiablo at diablonet.net Wed Nov 24 20:27:53 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? Message-ID: <19991125022753.6435.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Wow; sounds like quite a nice load :) I think the SA600 is a rather largish disk rack sort of thing that housed a number of RA8x (?) drives... -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From mbg at world.std.com Wed Nov 24 20:15:10 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy Message-ID: <199911250215.VAA07181@world.std.com> >The Computer Museum seemed to engender a remarkable amount of ill feeling >in the East, not alleviated by the flight of the collection from Boston. >Daq is the beneficiary of that great reservoir of suspicion and distrust. >He certainly has his work cut out for him, but being forthcoming and >addressing these concerns could go a long way towards settling them. I would suggest that the move from boston cannot expect to have reduced any ill feeling but increased it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 24 20:09:43 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: <199911250215.VAA07181@world.std.com> (message from Megan on Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:15:10 -0500 (EST)) References: <199911250215.VAA07181@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19991125020943.15603.qmail@brouhaha.com> Megan wrote: > I would suggest that the move from boston cannot expect to have > reduced any ill feeling but increased it... I can understand that those who live on the east coast may feel slighted by this, but when you consider that the PURPOSE of the move was to get the collection into a place where it could actually be maintained in a reasonable manner, surely you'd have to concede that to be better than letting it languish (and possibly meet a much more horrible fate) in Boston. It will obviously take some time for TCMHC to win the trust of those who felt betrayed by the actions of TCM. But in all fairness I think that their intentions are better judged by their recent actions than those taken by TCM years ago. TCMHC seems genuinely concerned about preserving the historical record, and educating people about computer history, rather than simply acting as a thinly veiled outlet for Intel advertising. This is, for instance, demonstrated by such things as their IBM 1620 restoration project. There is a lot of interest in restoring other systems as well, but there aren't enough resources to do multiple systems at once. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 24 21:11:39 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Ugh, PC0 + PDP-8I problem. Message-ID: <002d01bf36f2$ca840b20$8c75e2d1@default> I have just started to look at this problem but I don't like it already. Here we go: If I load a RIM paper tape into my 8I using (single step) it loads in fine. If I load in a RIM paper tape into my 8I running (no manual steps).. the data loaded is garbage , and may not even be in the right place. If I toggle in a program to test the "all 1s" paper tape it passes (both single step and running) If I toggle in a program to test the "all 0s" paper tape it passes (both single step and running) If I toggle in a *larger* program to read a "1s and 0s paper tape" it passes (both single step and running). [this is ones and zeros alternating] I have checked the strobe line with my scope at it appears normal. I have checked and re-aligned the paper tape reader and data coming out of it (in step mode) is okay. My next move will be to try and load 32 bytes from the paper tape reader into core (not the RIM loader, my own quick program). and Write a quick program to write various numbers to core and make sure the are written correctly. There are no other devices connected. It could be the data is improperly strobed at high speed (adjacent holes on either side of the actual byte being read in are allowing enough light through to trigger the photo detector). I have the gain up quite a bit to strobe the feed hole.... but not enough to screw up the above three tests. Any suggestions???????????????? john From rws at enteract.com Wed Nov 24 23:10:58 1999 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? In-Reply-To: <9911241620010R.00500@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote: > >As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). > > > >I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had > >heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too > >big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. > > Grrrrrr. I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of "this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any particular computer is prohibited by this list's FAQ and Rules (and I'd definitely say that calling a whole class of machines junk would be bashing). When some of us go hunting in Dumpsters and scrapyards for measly old micros, while working minis are being gleefully hauled to the shredder for gold content, it kind of makes you wonder if it's all worth it. Richard From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 24 23:01:58 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <004301bf3702$33c0d140$8c75e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Richard W. Schauer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:13 AM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? > was: > >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >> >As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). >> > >> >I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had >> >heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too >> >big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. >> >> Grrrrrr. > >I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. >I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any >particular computer is prohibited by this list's FAQ and Rules (and I'd >definitely say that calling a whole class of machines junk would be >bashing). > >When some of us go hunting in Dumpsters and scrapyards for measly old >micros, while working minis are being gleefully hauled to the shredder for >gold content, it kind of makes you wonder if it's all worth it. > >Richard > First, I have never brought any kind of mini/micro to a gold reclaimer... If I get a system I really don't want I either take the boards out and have the rest crushed or ask one of my scrapper friends to cut it up. "I'll get what gold I can out of it"... is an expression meaning I will try and get as many Ebay dollars out of the boards as I can to offset the purchase and shipping of the lot. We should resolve this issue... What is a collectable computer?? I think there are enough COCO-2s in collections to cover all of Toronto... should I still hoard and buy every unit I see? I realize this is a touchy issue so I will try to explain where I am coming from and I would appreciate opinions. I have taken a leave of absence for 1 year to restore and cycle through as many minis as I can for private collectors (kind of an *early retirement* if I get the right ones). I have quite a "wish list" and a "want list".. On average I usually have access to at least 40-50 minis/year. I usually send 40+ to the chopper. I can't possibly store so many units (especially when most collectors don't want them). I expect a few hundred over the next year from auctions, scrappers, factories, and trade-ins.... I have gotten together with quite a few scrappers (through the ones I know) and other contacts to dig out as many possible sites that would have the kind of minis I am looking for. For the most part I will get stuck dealing with a lot of VAX 11/78Xs, IBMs, some Supercomputers (like the Fujitsu) and a lot of PDP-11s. None of these computers are rare in any way and are quite abundant among collectors. They are heavy, difficult to deal with and not profitable. The documentation and software are everywhere for these computers and *more* weight I have to deal with. I can't possibly keep every Vax, Fujitsu, IBM, PDP and most people in this group cannot deal with such large systems... So what do I do???? One idea is to pull the boards out and hope to dump them on EBay... [I am paying for this equipment]. That would help people fix their own minis if they needed the boards... There will be systems *worth* restoring (that's why I am doing this), IE: alot of PDPs 8s, transistor PDPs, and maybe some 18 bits,, I expect an IBM 360 along with at least one 1401... and a lot of spares , docs, and software. The fujitsu is *HUGE*... I doubt anyone here would want to even try and run it. Its worth more in parts than whole. It's not old (6 maybe 7 years).. so what does one do?? The boards are nice, they look great.. Collectors are looking for this kind of stuff to hang on their walls... can't possibly run it. and the Vax 6000. The last one didn't even fetch $300 on EBay. There are thousands of Vaxes and I am sure millions of RA81/90s (whatever) out there. No one wants the stuff [well, maybe the boards] I agree with you on one thing.. I will refrain from calling certain minis/micros *junk*.. but put yourself in my shoes.. If you had cabinets of minis/mainframes coming in every month and *very* limited time/space what would you do with them ? ... [and of course consider the fact that you *paid* for them]. I will at least mention them here for parts before I have them shredded. Basically, any mini I get that does not *like* paper tape will probably get chopped up for parts. P.S. I asked about 2 months ago if anyone wanted a free RH11 boards. I got no responses - none. What should I do with them? Upset my wife more by keeping them or toss them in the dump? Suggestions? > From spicer at computerhistory.org Thu Nov 25 00:26:36 1999 From: spicer at computerhistory.org (Dag Spicer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy In-Reply-To: <19991125020943.15603.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199911250215.VAA07181@world.std.com> <199911250215.VAA07181@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991124222636.00becdb0@mail.netcare.com> Thanks Eric for your thoughful comments. In particular I appreciate your willingness to give the History Center a chance. I think this thread has been fruitful in re-establishing our connections to the collecting community at large and I have received numerous positive comments from individuals on the list wishing to get involved in our activities as well. I am hopeful this can be a fresh start for all of us to bootstrap computer history even further and share information (and war stories!) about our fascinating hobby. The Center is placing quite a few of its video archives on-line as digital media streams in the weeks ahead and I will let the list know when they become available. Also, we put out our quarterly on-line newsletter today at: http://www.computerhistory.org/events/core/1.1/ If anyone on the list wishes to be added to our regular (low traffic) mailing list, please just drop me a line. Thanks again for getting in tuoch! Dag. At 02:09 AM 11/25/99 -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Megan wrote: >> I would suggest that the move from boston cannot expect to have >> reduced any ill feeling but increased it... > >I can understand that those who live on the east coast may feel >slighted by this, but when you consider that the PURPOSE of the move >was to get the collection into a place where it could actually be >maintained in a reasonable manner, surely you'd have to concede that >to be better than letting it languish (and possibly meet a much more >horrible fate) in Boston. > >It will obviously take some time for TCMHC to win the trust of those >who felt betrayed by the actions of TCM. But in all fairness I think >that their intentions are better judged by their recent actions than >those taken by TCM years ago. TCMHC seems genuinely concerned about >preserving the historical record, and educating people about computer >history, rather than simply acting as a thinly veiled outlet for Intel >advertising. This is, for instance, demonstrated by such things as their >IBM 1620 restoration project. There is a lot of interest in restoring >other systems as well, but there aren't enough resources to do multiple >systems at once. > > -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer@computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 24 23:59:22 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: another 11/60 In-Reply-To: <383C830B.3A06@swbell.net> References: <199911242249.RAA29664@world.std.com> Message-ID: Not that I am real serious, but how rare is a Terak? Value of a working system (buying, not selling)? From mbg at world.std.com Thu Nov 25 02:05:37 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: The Computer Museum History Center Collections Policy References: <199911250215.VAA07181@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199911250805.DAA27008@world.std.com> >I can understand that those who live on the east coast may feel >slighted by this, but when you consider that the PURPOSE of the move >was to get the collection into a place where it could actually be >maintained in a reasonable manner, surely you'd have to concede that >to be better than letting it languish (and possibly meet a much more >horrible fate) in Boston. Don't get me wrong... I'm not against them and their purpose, but now that they are on the wron, er, west coast, those of us without pockets, let alone deep ones, are entirely out of luck. Since the only times I've even been out to california were when I was on a business trip where I presented at DECUS, or at an SF convention for which I saved for a year, I've pretty much given up hope that I will ever see the real collection, or any part of it, again... I do want to be involved as much as I can be from here. But I think we really do need an accounting of what truly happened, if anything, to the machines which were mentioned in earlier messages. If nothing else, to absolutely set the record straight and to stop the various versions of events. >preserving the historical record, and educating people about computer >history, rather than simply acting as a thinly veiled outlet for Intel >advertising. I hope so... that was part of the reason I gave up on TCM a few years ago... it *was* little more than a WinTel advertisement, as if the computer industry started with PeeCees... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | --------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 25 02:10:57 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes References: Message-ID: <383CEF11.6CF7B1B2@softstar.it> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Does your friend have a 1A? spectrum analyser plugin for a 545? I have no use > > for it but always dreamed to have one ;-) > > You mean a 1L? (1L5, 1L10, 1L20, 1L30 IIRC). It's on my wish list as well :-) You are probably correct. I have buried this wish since you cannot find them easily in Italy unless you are willing to shove out at least 800 euros This make me wonder who is still using 5xx scopes and has that kind of money to spend. No a hobbyist certainly. I got my 545 years ago in the US and brought it back as chek-in bagage; arrived intact ;-) > I was given a few old letter series plug-ins, and amongst them was a 3rd > party unit which turned out to be a spectrum analyser from 800MHz to > 17GHz. No, it's not up for grabs :-) Lucky guy. From what I see, in the UK, you can get your greedy little hands on lots of nice stuff (Xerox, PERQ, spectrum analysers) grrrrrrrrrr..... 8-) e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 25 02:19:23 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? References: Message-ID: <383CF10B.FB274554@softstar.it> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let > alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower > end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I In Italy it is even worst. Companies prefer scrapping than giving to hobbyists. All you can find are shitty 386 junk e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 25 01:20:49 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr In-Reply-To: References: <9911241620010R.00500@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >> Grrrrrr. > >I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. >I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being kept "operational". My attitude is that you can love the forest, and still build a wooden house with a fireplace. The way to save old systems is to hunt them down and buy them. Offer 7 cents a pound and you might win every scrap bid in the country. Want to stop a system from being scrapped, three words are all it takes, "I'll buy it". From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 25 02:57:40 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: "John B"'s message of "Thu, 25 Nov 1999 00:01:58 -0500" References: <004301bf3702$33c0d140$8c75e2d1@default> Message-ID: You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts: - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which means that they like collecting certain stuff. - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and "collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction, by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it. - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year). - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of every collector (at least it breaks mine...). Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 25 03:09:56 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr References: <9911241620010R.00500@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <383CFCE4.858FD3E8@softstar.it> Mike Ford wrote: > > >> Grrrrrr. > > > >I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of > >"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. > >I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any > > This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the > shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of > the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being > kept "operational". Agree. However is seems that a lot of people just want to have them operational in their house, garage etc. If this cannot happen just let the machine got to the shredder. This is exactly what I was told by local hobbyists I approached to find help in saving an IBM 4381 mainframe. Now I have found at my university floor space, power supply and internet connection, but almost nobody seems interested in it. Only the LInux 370 community gave some feedback. Have I 'invested' on the wrong thing to save? 8-( e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 25 03:12:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <003f01bf3725$2c2800c0$0400c0a8@winbook> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them for somewhat less than that implies. If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 2:00 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) > > You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you >don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless >Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts: > - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which >means that they like collecting certain stuff. > - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and >"collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet >from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors >are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction, >by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it. > - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not >very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't >hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity >with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year). > - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a >year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of >every collector (at least it breaks mine...). > > Cheers, > > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 25 04:14:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 24, 99 02:31:11 am Message-ID: >You can deduce the pinouts from the printset : The problem here is the only PDP-8 printsets I've got access to are the ones on Highgate. I suspect a lot of other people have the same problem. >8881 : >1 Output A >2 Input A1 >3 Input A2 >4 Output B >5 Input B1 >6 Input B2 >7 Ground >8 Input C2 >9 Input C1 >10 Output C >11 Input D2 >12 Input D1 >13 Output D >14 Vcc > >Each gate is an open-collector NAND gate, e.g. Output A = Input A1 NAND >Input A2. On the G104 card, E24 : >Section Bit > A 11 > B 10 > C 9 > D 8 Question: Isn't this functionally the same as a 7401, at least it looks to me based on the above and looking at info on the 7401 as if should be. >DEC put a 4 digit code on these ICs. It's still a 384 logically, but it's >been selected for something (timing?). Of course _getting_ a replaement >now is non-trivial. Unfortunatly the 384 looks rather non-standard compared to the info I've got on hand (bit more than yesterday, while out taking care of stuff this morning stopped at one of the local electronics places and picked up a NTE Reference manual). >> OK, one quick question on this that I've been meaning to clear up, but think >> I've got right. '0' is the component side, and '1' is the back side, >>right? > >Off by 1... '1' is the component side, '2' is the track side. > >MD0 means memory data bit 0, which according to the prints is on pin >AK1. You _do_ have the Omnibus pinout, right? Ouch, was I awake when I wrote that?!? Yes, I've got the pinout, in fact I have both the actual book, and a printout of the pinouts from the scanned in book (what can I say, easier than making xeroxes of the parts I need). >> However, it looks like E46 is indeed bad. It doesn't seem to function like >> it should. On E39 some of the legs get a single blip every eight examines >> (yes, I know that isn't a very good way of describing it, but I didn't take >> notes, plus I wasn't using the probe right). > >That sounds like what it should be doing. I assume E46 is not doing this. Correct, E46 isn't doing that. >OK, change E46. Now, where you get one (8251 decoder IIRC, no relation to >the 8251 from Intel that's a USART) is another matter. I don't have any >spares :-( Well, there is at least one person locally that might have some spares if I'm lucky. I don't suppose they're used on MicroVAXen or if necessary Q-Bus PDP-11's >> >For example. Put the logic probe on MD0 (MSB) on the backplane and >> >deposit 7777. It blips low, right? Now examine that location (assumed to >> >be a 'working' location) -- it blips low again. >> > >> >Now look at MD11 (LSB) and do the same things. >> >> All 12 lines of the MD Bus look to be functioning both ways. This was >> tested with the proper voltage hooked up to the probe. > >Well, if all 12 data lines are doing the same thing when you deposit and >examine 7777, then the memory may well be working, and the problem may be >on the CPU boards. I will have a look at the prints and tech manual when >I have a few minutes. I might not have been totally clear here, when the data goes one direction, it sets the line high, when it goes the other direction it sets it low. Or should it be doing something else? Hope to be able to get back at this tomorrow night, or first thing this morning. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 25 04:31:21 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher"'s message of "Thu, 25 Nov 1999 02:12:17 -0700" References: <003f01bf3725$2c2800c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher writes: Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them Richard> for somewhat less than that implies. The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect the market prices. But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand, it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right? Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless they appear in Lisbon/portugal area... Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Nov 25 07:29:04 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: 4381 (was: Re: Grrrrrr) Message-ID: <80256834.0049A1A6.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > However is seems that a lot of people just want to have them operational > in their house, garage etc. If this cannot happen just let the machine got > to the shredder. This is exactly what I was told by local hobbyists I > approached to find help in saving an IBM 4381 mainframe. Well I replied to the address you set up, but it seemed to have problems, so perhaps my message didn't get through. I worked at IBM when the 4381 was current, and I'd like to see one saved. Not sure how much help I can be at this distance, since I mainly worked on PCs, S/34s and S/36s. I did try and grab any technical info I could find (which was very little since I worked in a marketing unit) and I will try and look things up if I can find anything... > Now I have found at my university floor space, power supply and internet > connection, but almost nobody seems interested in it. Only the LInux 370 > community gave some feedback. Well done. I'm all in favour. (Can I still remember how to use CMS...?) > Have I 'invested' on the wrong thing to save? 8-( Your decision. If you think it's worth saving, save it. I think it's worth saving, but I'm not sure there's much I can do to help (which makes it easier for me to declare my support, I suppose). I will e-mail you privately... I tried to save a 4341 around 10 years ago when I was still a student. There wasn't a hope, though... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 07:15:37 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <002c01bf3747$35bf5300$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:57 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) > > You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you >don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless >Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts: > - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which >means that they like collecting certain stuff. Picasso didn't have 40,000 people making 1,000,000 of the same painting. Also, I am sure you are I could not go out and save *every* "$19.95 CHEAP OIL PAINTING LIQUIDATOR" work. Yes, I would burn paintings if I was offered more than I could handle. It's only common sense. You buy the lot for the valuable material. > - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and >"collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet >from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors >are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction, >by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it. It's not possible. I don't think anyone owns a country bid enough to store them. We are talking about millions of Vaxes, PCs, DGs, etc... > - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not >very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't >hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity >with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year). > - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a >year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of >every collector (at least it breaks mine...). That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax 11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 left in mills out there... and no one wants them! > > Cheers, > > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 07:20:37 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? Message-ID: <003101bf3747$dcb63e80$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Enrico Badella To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:15 AM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? > >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >> >> To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let >> alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower >> end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I > >In Italy it is even worst. Companies prefer scrapping than giving to >hobbyists. All you can find are shitty 386 junk Same thing here.. And do you want to know why???? They are tired of hobbyists wanting to know *everything* about the unit they are about to buy.. and then if they finally do decide to buy it most show up in a mini van! Further, companies want a Comp. number so they are not responsible if I get hurt on the premesis. The last thing in the world companies want to deal with is a hobbyists... they want someone to come in, bid on weight, and pick up the load professionally and quickly. No grief.. > >e. > >======================================================================== >Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it >Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it >InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 >Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 >10143 Torino, Italy > > Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, > manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals >========================================================================== > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 07:22:59 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr Message-ID: <003601bf3748$3168fbc0$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:45 AM Subject: Grrrrrr >>> Grrrrrr. >> >>I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >>"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. >>I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any > >This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the >shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of >the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being >kept "operational". > >My attitude is that you can love the forest, and still build a wooden house >with a fireplace. > >The way to save old systems is to hunt them down and buy them. Offer 7 >cents a pound and you might win every scrap bid in the country. Want to >stop a system from being scrapped, three words are all it takes, "I'll buy >it". > > You got it. That's why I am listing what I am getting here so people *have* an opportunity to get something they would probably never find. I just hope I don't have the same bad experiences local companies/scrappers have had with hobbyists in the past. Bottom line... if you want a Vax 11/780 you'd better be willing to shell out the money to have it professionally shipped or pick it up with a *real* truck. > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 07:26:43 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr Message-ID: <003d01bf3748$b6e99e80$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Enrico Badella To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 4:06 AM Subject: Re: Grrrrrr > > >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> >> Grrrrrr. >> > >> >I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >> >"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. >> >I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any >> >> This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the >> shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of >> the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being >> kept "operational". > >Agree. > >However is seems that a lot of people just want to have them operational >in their house, garage etc. If this cannot happen just let the machine got >to the shredder. This is exactly what I was told by local hobbyists I >approached to find help in saving an IBM 4381 mainframe. > Exactly, reality kicks in. You can't run a big IBM in your home... sorry, not going to happen. People only want the minis they can run easily at home and something that does not disrupt the house as it is. Most collectors want: The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) An old transistor mini Maybe a PDP-8/11.... Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. >Now I have found at my university floor space, power supply and internet >connection, but almost nobody seems interested in it. Only the LInux 370 >community gave some feedback. > >Have I 'invested' on the wrong thing to save? 8-( > >e. > >======================================================================== >Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it >Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it >InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 >Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 >10143 Torino, Italy > > Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, > manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals >========================================================================== > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 07:33:18 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <004201bf3749$a2a92e80$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:32 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher writes: > > Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting > Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're > Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them > Richard> for somewhat less than that implies. > > The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't >say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined >by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because >the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to >store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect >the market prices. Ya right, I look a leave of absence so I can go out and buy minis for 2 cents a pound and resell them for 5 cents a pound??? Quite a few more people want minis than you think, at least the older ones ('60s) that they first touched... and it is not uncommon to get $20,000 or more for such a unit (depending of course on the number of them left). The collective market greatly influences the prices of such minis... and bidding usually occurs. Yes, a Vax 11/780 will get you a scrap metal price... an IBM1401 (unrestored) will fetch an easy $20,000 (a lot more if you put the word out). I restore them and ship them running with software and docs, the value goes up a lot more than that. > > But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher >prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for >instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand, >it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the >future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some >computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC >boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu >minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as You can't compare Fujitsu to ENIAC.. The Fujitsu is *not* an original... There are probably at least 10,000 of those *originals*. >old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right? > > Right, and those are the kinds of systems I am aiming for (well, I won't get an ENIAC.. but UNIVACs can still be found). > Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, > Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value > Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, > Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? > > Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the >world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to >announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love >to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless >they appear in Lisbon/portugal area... > > Cheers, > > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 07:41:22 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? Message-ID: <005d01bf374a$c3368160$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? > > >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> At 03:31 PM 11/24/99 -0500, John B wrote: >> >Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my >> >wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. >> >> Well there is a difference between scrapping it and offering it to someone >> on the list who might be willing to take it whole and keep it running. I >> suspect that was what the "grrrring" was about. Its even ok to say, "This >> is what I think I can get from 'ebay souvenirs" and if anyone wants to >> match it they get first dibs." >> >> This crowd is partial to keeping things running, > >To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let >alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower >end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I >still have trouble finding places to put all my stuff. And my wife is >constantly at the brink of "fed-up" with my pitiful little lot and >day-long roadtrips to pick up more "junk." > >Additionally, it's a lot of work to negotiate the pickup/delivery of >large, heavy, difficult-to-ship things as well. Not everyone has the time >and energy to do that...even as a labor of love. > >I applaud John for the work he puts into the restoration of the systems he >does keep and for the time and effort he puts into sharing it with others >(great web page). He obviously has an interest in classic computers that >goes beyond how much gold or aluminum is contained within. > > Thanks Aaron. I will continue to post lists of boards and minis as I get them in the hope people here can restore a unit they might have. >Aaron > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 25 08:55:06 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: Terak value (was Re: another 11/60) In-Reply-To: References: <383C830B.3A06@swbell.net> <199911242249.RAA29664@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991125085506.010f51f0@pc> At 09:59 PM 11/24/99 -0800, you wrote: >Not that I am real serious, but how rare is a Terak? >Value of a working system (buying, not selling)? Who knows? I'm not even sure how many were made, offhand I'd guess they couldn't have sold more than a few thousand at ~$20K in 1979 dollars. Most are probably in landfills by now, so they're arguably R@RE. The only ones I've ever seen for sale were as scrap, so I've paid shipping, $0, $1 to $25 for them in the past ten years. I don't own any of the later color models, of which I suspect there were far fewer. I know three or four people who own three or four, and maybe another half-dozen who own one. Value is in the eye of the beholder. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 25 09:03:12 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE In-Reply-To: <003f01bf3725$2c2800c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991125090312.010c7600@pc> At 02:12 AM 11/25/99 -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, shipping, and >associated costs, plus the scrap value then, since it's too late to leave >'em inthe scrapyard, they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? Yes, of course. Storage space itself costs a great deal to someone. I'm lucky to have a basement in my office building of 1,800 square feet or so, but the humidity and dust levels aren't optimal. Shipping costs can grow quickly, too. Think of eBay as a nice way to find someone willing to pay shipping. Which reminds me, someone should invent an automated method for computer rescue notifications, and some popular way to alert the masses to this method of friendly disposal. Oh, wait, maybe that's eBay. I think the only thing they're missing is the automated notification based on proximity, and I bet they're working on it, or that someone's automated agent does it. We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines. - John From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 25 09:30:22 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: 4381 (was: Re: Grrrrrr) References: <80256834.0049A1A6.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <383D560E.14B4AAEC@softstar.it> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > Well I replied to the address you set up, but it seemed to have problems, so > perhaps my message didn't get through. I know, that day I had a 9 hour stop while the telco upgraded some local routers. > I worked at IBM when the 4381 was current, and I'd like to see one saved. Not > sure how much help I can be at this distance, since I mainly worked on PCs, Mainly knowhow. The curren users are no longer capable of creating VM for a different hardware configuration; none of us guys involved in the salvage have been VM administrators, mainly CMS users... > > Have I 'invested' on the wrong thing to save? 8-( > > Your decision. If you think it's worth saving, save it. I think it's worth > saving, but I'm not sure there's much I can do to help (which makes it easier > for me to declare my support, I suppose). I will e-mail you privately... Connecting to other messages on the subject; we have managed to get a real truck something long aprox. 25mt. that will haul everything in one load. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 25 09:47:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:44 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <199911251547.KAA06604@world.std.com> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 10:51 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) ><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef > >As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >finding more than one or two would be less than easy. > >The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? > That's easy Allison. I have refused three Vax 11/780s this year so far the went to the shredder... I don't know how many more in the spring I refused as I was not taking any more systems from factories/liquidators[ things were slow]. Now that I have a site on the Internet and a presense on this list.. I have a pile of wish lists, requests, orders, etc... and I now have 1 person out of a few hundred that is willing to purchase 1 Vax 11/780 *just* over my scrap cost. *All* the others aren't interested. No one else wants them... and many factories kept them in *stores* when they were finsihed with them as most don't bother even scrapping the stuff. I generally figure out current population by the number of requests I get to pick up a model of a mini. Also, I look at what the collector community is looking for. Further, I have yet to find a Museum even willing to pay a *scrap* price for such a unit (let's not even talk about shipping costs). BTW: This company has put a request to their board for $1.7 Million to remove all the rest of the minis by spring and replace them with an NT system. I will no doubt be getting a call to pick up more Vaxes (already saw 2 11/750s - Uggggggh), a Mentor mini (business basic running inventory), and a pile of other minis I have not seen yet. I do know I will be getting a pile of ASR-33s... no idea why they held onto them. If you have items you are seriously looking for please-mail me. I won't be dragging everything to the shop. john >Allison > > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Nov 25 10:40:42 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991125090312.010c7600@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John Foust wrote: > We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer > across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling > his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines. I know some fellows that collect Mack trucks. they bought a factory to store the unrestored ones, and filled in the empty space with flathead V- Ford trucks. Compared to that sort of thing, those big Vaxes don't seem that big. After all, to a large degree things are relative. A Universe or a Dual is large compared to ZX-81, but small compared to a PDP-9. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 25 10:51:07 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr Message-ID: <199911251651.IAA29264@spies.com> "Most collectors want: The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) An old transistor mini Maybe a PDP-8/11.... Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. " Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines around the world that haven't been parted out. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 09:52:45 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE Message-ID: <00ae01bf375d$1dd44500$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:42 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE > > >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John Foust wrote: > >> We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer >> across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling >> his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines. > >I know some fellows that collect Mack trucks. they bought a factory to store >the unrestored ones, and filled in the empty space with flathead V- Ford >trucks. Compared to that sort of thing, those big Vaxes don't seem that >big. After all, to a large degree things are relative. A Universe or a >Dual is large compared to ZX-81, but small compared to a PDP-9. Computer equipment *must* be stored without moisture and be maintained at a certain tempature to retain any kind of value at all. I can't sell rusted boards... Climate control, dehumidifiers are expensive in large factories.. (if not impossible). Mack Trucks have a much higher resale value than any 10 Vaxes together I know... It's also relative to *what* it is... john > >M. K. >Peirce Rhode Island >Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 09:58:10 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr Message-ID: <00b501bf375d$df0cafa0$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Grrrrrr >"Most collectors want: > >The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) >An old transistor mini >Maybe a PDP-8/11.... > > Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. >" > >Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and >software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated >from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller >and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines >around the world that haven't been parted out. > I am actually doing that for you Al. I have you wish list and will send documentation to any system on your wish list.. Most companies trash the software and docs as normally scrappers don't want it or the company feels it can't legally hand it out. (I feel another Boo!, Hiss coming but I can't keep every manual either): I don't throw out any documentation I get with systems even if I do scrap them...but my dad likes to heat his home with wood and so I give him surplus manuals to start his woodstove/fireplace. From spicer at computerhistory.org Thu Nov 25 10:05:15 1999 From: spicer at computerhistory.org (Dag Spicer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: 4381 (was: Re: Grrrrrr) In-Reply-To: <383D560E.14B4AAEC@softstar.it> References: <80256834.0049A1A6.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991125080515.00becab0@mail.netcare.com> Hi Enrico, You may heartened to know to that the History Center has a complete, runnable, IBM 4381 in its collection. It was in use up to time of donation (last October) at the A. C. Delco plant in Rochester, NY. The machine is on display and in excellent condition. All necessary cabling, and I believe system software (we received about 100 reels of tape we haven't read yet), a million punch cards (literally), and manuals formed part of the donation. Best, Dag. At 04:30 PM 11/25/99 +0100, you wrote: > > >Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: >> >> >> Well I replied to the address you set up, but it seemed to have problems, so >> perhaps my message didn't get through. > >I know, that day I had a 9 hour stop while the telco upgraded some local >routers. > >> I worked at IBM when the 4381 was current, and I'd like to see one saved. Not >> sure how much help I can be at this distance, since I mainly worked on PCs, > >Mainly knowhow. The curren users are no longer capable of creating VM for a >different hardware configuration; none of us guys involved in the salvage >have been VM administrators, mainly CMS users... > >> > Have I 'invested' on the wrong thing to save? 8-( >> >> Your decision. If you think it's worth saving, save it. I think it's worth >> saving, but I'm not sure there's much I can do to help (which makes it easier >> for me to declare my support, I suppose). I will e-mail you privately... > >Connecting to other messages on the subject; we have managed to get a real truck >something long aprox. 25mt. that will haul everything in one load. > >e. > >======================================================================== >Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it >Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it >InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 >Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 >10143 Torino, Italy > > Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, > manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals >========================================================================== > > -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer@computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299. From spicer at computerhistory.org Thu Nov 25 11:12:21 1999 From: spicer at computerhistory.org (Dag Spicer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Your message to ClassicCmp In-Reply-To: <199911242307.SAA10168@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991125091221.009995a0@mail.netcare.com> At 06:07 PM 11/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >It is possible that something happened prior to your tenure... I can think >of one report which has been much discussed at times on the alt.sys.pdp10 >newsgroup -- the dismantling of the pdp-6 gifted to the computer museum >by Stanford. Since you are in a position to know... did this in fact >happen? The reports have the flip chips from the machine being sold >as trinkets. Hi Megan, My understanding of this issue is that the PDP-6 modules sold at the Museum store were found in boxes in a DEC warehouse. At the same time, TCM removed a piece of the '6 from display, leading folks to conflate the two events, inferring that the pieces being sold were from the one on the floor. The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage. I hope you will find this explanation satisfactory and that we can put this issue behind us. I apologize on behalf of the Museum and History Center that we perhaps did not communicate well with you and other enthusiasts about the machine in question. It took some time to reconsruct an event from a long time ago. If you have specific concerns about other machines, please let me know. I am eager to address cogent criticisms of TCM (the past) or the History Center (the present & future) at any time and to work with you all in advancing the state of the art in computer preservation--we have many unique problems that are fascinating to think about and solve, ones that everyone can contribute to remedying. [snip: re visiting the west coast] >>2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it >> and we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that >> need to be done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me >> a line if you're interested. > >Great if you happen to live nearby... but what can one do from the >east coast to help? Plenty! We have many "virtual volunteer" opportunities. One of the greatest needs is to transcribe computer history lecture for the web. This is of tremendous use to scholars because it is a searchable version of the lectures we hold with some of the computer industry's most important contributors. Past speakers have included: Bob Noyce, Jay Forrester, Grace Hopper, Doug Engelbart, Maurice Wilkes, Seymour Cray--an amazing list that covers 20 years of computer history! For a typical transcript, have a look at: http://www.computerhistory.org/events/sage_05191998/index.page Also, these transcripts are soon to be supplemented by RealVideo/RealAudio/MP3 media streams of the lecture. We have posted Godron Moore's lecture from last month on-line as an example: http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_program.html?program_id=54 Might this appeal? >>3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or >> curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits >> a month--what a way to get the word out about computer history! > >I like that idea... what if your site linked to the private sites of >numerous collectors (take a look at my own site, for example). We hope to have a "Links" page within the next 60 days. >>4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a >> way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest. > >You're ahead of me... what do you mean by archived? I would think that >private sites would be kept up by the owner... One of the concerns we have at the Center is that while there are superb computer history sites out there run by individuals, there is no institutional architecture for ensuring that they can continue past the sponsor's lifetime or (much more likely) even five years. As you know, some of these sites are simply superb and irreplaceable resources whose loss would be gravely felt. If we take the geological timescale into account (50 years for computers!), there is a real concern that such wonderful resources might no longer be maintained after some finite amount of time. I think you'll agree this is a pretty reasonable conclusion. Consequently, the Center would like to host (perhaps 'park' is a better word? -- since we would have no content oversight whatsoever) high quality sites in computer history allowing these sites to make use of the Center's stable infrastructure (including regular backups, &c.) We haven't worked all the details yet--for example, how to handle updates and so on. If anyone on the list would like to serve as a test case, please contact me and we can experiment! > >Thanks for taking the time to write to the list... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer All the best Megan--thanks for caring! d. -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer@computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299. From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 25 11:15:48 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: <199911251547.KAA06604@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991125110216.00a9cce0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:47 AM 11/25/99 -0500, Allison J Parent said something like: ><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef > >As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >finding more than one or two would be less than easy. > >The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? > >Allison Allison has hit right on the mark in reply to your suggestion there's 100k or so 11/780's still out there, John B. How can you say there are that many when we hear of only even a few more recent vintage 11/750's coming available for example?? I would wager 750's had been more common in their day than 780's were for various reasons. Were there even 100k 11/750's made??? We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750 (and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are common. Case in point: at present I have up for adoption a VAX 11/750 which is the first one of these in months that I really recall seeing available. A fellow presently is interested but timing and distance for him to come get it is presently an issue and storage co$ts related to it are becoming an issue for me. I do *not* want to scrap it and part it out as it was a *running* system when I bought it amongst a truckload of other DEC gear. I'm a preservationist and really want to see it go to a collector who can have a running system. However, I'm off the beaten path for big iron collectors to readily come for it and there is a risk nobody can get it whole. Therefore there's a risk that a big iron VAX may die as a system. With that, it makes me seem like the "heartless" type who would scrap a working machine just to make room around here and I *don't* like that feeling one bit. Then I recall with shivers up my spine that if I had not discovered the availability of the truckload of DEC gear I bought, the original owner who had it would have proceeded to call a trash hauling company the next day to take it all away so he could clear out his ex-company office ASAP and fly back to his home in California. So at least I am able to have offered it plus other surplus DEC gear to everybody here plus save out a big batch of stuff which gives me a rather decent DEC collection. Yeah, well I see John B's point in simply scrapping a machine to a _limited_ extent. In my mind that doesn't quite forgive unilaterally deciding to scrap a collectable machine, or even a more modern interesting machine like the Fujitsu, just because "they are common" or "too big", etc. Just let us know and and encourage us to pass the word around. There may be potential computer homes out there we don't know of. But if not, at least the thing has been given a chance to live. I guess collectors have to try to keep doing the best they can in spite of logistics . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 25 11:22:11 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Your message to ClassicCmp Message-ID: <199911251722.JAA29904@spies.com> "The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage." Do you happen to know if any documentation or software was stored there? There was just a discussion on alt.sys.pdp10 that it appears that all of DEC's PDP-10 software archives disappeared, and I'm hoping they MAY have ended up there, maybe other software as well (people were unable to locate 18 bit software, for example). From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 25 11:26:11 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <199911251726.JAA29991@spies.com> "We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750 (and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are common. " A friend of mine in Milwaukee has an 11/780 he'd like to sell, if anyone near there wants it. It will be a non-trivial de install, though (it's in a basement). If someone is serious about this, I can forward his phone number / email adr. From jensens at mcs.net Thu Nov 25 11:50:28 1999 From: jensens at mcs.net (Stephen D. Jensen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Stephen Jensen Message-ID: <00d301bf376d$91aa8e20$03000004@dadsprimary> Hope I'm doing this right. I need to unsubscribe from this mailing list. It generates too much traffic for me and I can't keep up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/1e1c2b0b/attachment.html From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Nov 25 11:59:11 1999 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr References: <00b501bf375d$df0cafa0$0977e2d1@default> Message-ID: <383D78EE.A1D95DA4@arrl.net> John B wrote: > them...but my dad likes to heat his home with wood and so I give him > surplus manuals to start his woodstove/fireplace. Ouuuch !!... My *collection* does not consist of the likes that are being discussed in this and related threads. But what my MVII, MV3900, MV3100/10, VS3100m76 and VS4000/VLC do have in common is that I have NO manuals for any of them. So that "fireplace" comment was especially painful here. Nick * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Nick Oliviero / nolivi@coair.com Simulator Project Engineer / (281)553-6507 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/b111d996/attachment.html From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 11:04:11 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <00d101bf3767$182facc0$0977e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:18 PM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >Upon the date 10:47 AM 11/25/99 -0500, Allison J Parent said something like: >>><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef >>> >>As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >>current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >>years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >>finding more than one or two would be less than easy. >> >>The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? >> >>Allison > >Allison has hit right on the mark in reply to your suggestion there's 100k >or so 11/780's still out there, John B. How can you say there are that many >when we hear of only even a few more recent vintage 11/750's coming >available for example?? I would wager 750's had been more common in their >day than 780's were for various reasons. Were there even 100k 11/750's made??? > >We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis >on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to >scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750 >(and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are >common. > Obviously not, If you have eyes and ears out then your home, storage, family relative homes , local school, and probably a few hundred thousand square feet of local storage would be filled *right now* with large minis... Let me tell you what was available *this* month: Ketchikan Pulp and Paper Ketchikan AK, USA Rack fulls of Accuray electronics containing Honeywell? minis. At least 32 cabinets of electronics (over 10,000 pounds). You must take them all and go through the liquidator. (This site has probably been chopped up already). Thorold Pulp and Paper Thorold, Ontario 4 old mills are being scrapped. 8 Honeywell Minis and PDP-11/05s are there. Well over 30 cabinets of electronics holding the minis. You *must* take everything. I know the stuff is still there. and I am taking them for the Honeywell 316s.. Needless to say I am shredding 28 bays of electronics. Simpson Paper Company Eureka CA, USA Again entire mills with *massive* amounts of minis. These guys use minis for industrial control... Don't know if they are still there... not going to fly out and find out.. May have been junked already. That is about 30,000 pounds of just industrial control minis available JUST in the pulp and paper industry available right now!. That does not include all the administrative systems, labelling minis, etc...... As ACCURAY is the standard for paper mill systems you can expect 1 mini/mill + 1 backup mini/mill (depending on age it gets worse)... and you have *one* basement full of minis??? and no calls for minis lately??? I won't even try and list the number of steel mills upgrading right now (in Ontario) or the number of them scrapping their minis.... I can pull 10-15 minis/year out of the steel sector in Ontario alone/year. You can also expect *most* sectors to upgrade their systems every 5 years and store the stuff until they have time to get rid of it... The *small* factory I am going into to pull these out have owned well over 30 minis over the last 25 years... multiply that by the number of steel mills in Ontario and you get an idea what I am talking about. WHY AM I GOING INTO THESE PLACES??? Sometimes I get lucky and find an old 1960's mini that was never thrown out, sitting in storage. It happens more often than you think. I will now be flying out to some mills to look for the old minis as the value has increased enough to do so. I have throw out/passed up over the past 7 years: IBM1130 - E.L. Crossley High School. refused IBM1401 [boat manufacturer] (won't refuse those anymore) Vax 11/730s (2) Honeywell 316s (5) [paper mills] - thre out another one this spring.. running. PDP-11/40s (3) -- just awful minis. PDP-8e (at least 2), PDP-8L, PDP-8Ms, as, etc... (won't throw these out anymore either) IBM System 32s (school boards used them.. tossed them out) MAI Basic 4 (Hydro upgraded and got rid of them.. 1 per CITY!) refused 3 Vax 11/780s this year PDP-11/70s (too many to list - Pennington Clothes, Hayes Dana, Ontario Asset Disposal, and others I can't recall right now) PDP-11/05s (every paper mill with accuray has at least 6 of them) .........and just too many others to recall... Some of these were at auctions... not including the ones I got calls about but refused. >Case in point: at present I have up for adoption a VAX 11/750 which is the >first one of these in months that I really recall seeing available. A They commonly get sent to the shredder.. Even PDP-11 enthusiasts don't want them due to their size and power requirements. Most Metlabs have them and have been tossing them over the past 3-5 years. Microvaxes are a lot more *spouse* friendly but if you notice they don't even fetch more than $300 each/system on EBay. Hence, most people will see that and decide not to pick them up in the first place. >fellow presently is interested but timing and distance for him to come get >it is presently an issue and storage co$ts related to it are becoming an >issue for me. I do *not* want to scrap it and part it out as it was a >*running* system when I bought it amongst a truckload of other DEC gear. >I'm a preservationist and really want to see it go to a collector who can >have a running system. However, I'm off the beaten path for big iron >collectors to readily come for it and there is a risk nobody can get it >whole. Therefore there's a risk that a big iron VAX may die as a system. > I don't like to see that either.. but there is only so many minis one person can hold. >With that, it makes me seem like the "heartless" type who would scrap a >working machine just to make room around here and I *don't* like that >feeling one bit. Then I recall with shivers up my spine that if I had not >discovered the availability of the truckload of DEC gear I bought, the >original owner who had it would have proceeded to call a trash hauling >company the next day to take it all away so he could clear out his >ex-company office ASAP and fly back to his home in California. So at least >I am able to have offered it plus other surplus DEC gear to everybody here >plus save out a big batch of stuff which gives me a rather decent DEC >collection. > >Yeah, well I see John B's point in simply scrapping a machine to a >_limited_ extent. In my mind that doesn't quite forgive unilaterally >deciding to scrap a collectable machine, or even a more modern interesting >machine like the Fujitsu, just because "they are common" or "too big", etc. >Just let us know and and encourage us to pass the word around. There may be >potential computer homes out there we don't know of. But if not, at least >the thing has been given a chance to live. > I plan to do that. That's why I am posting the info here. >I guess collectors have to try to keep doing the best they can in spite of >logistics . . . > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Nov 25 12:29:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Your message to ClassicCmp Message-ID: <991125132926.20200acc@trailing-edge.com> >"The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History >Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq >which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage." > >Do you happen to know if any documentation or software was stored there? >There was just a discussion on alt.sys.pdp10 that it appears that all of >DEC's PDP-10 software archives disappeared, and I'm hoping they MAY have >ended up there, maybe other software as well (people were unable to locate >18 bit software, for example). I don't know about the History Center's software archives - I would imagine they've got loads of tapes and packs, but no equipment nor time to use them - but very shortly (as in the next week or two) there will be a public archive available with TOPS-10 distribution tape images, sources, build kits, etc. Total quantity of stuff (at the moment) is in the few hundred megabyte range, and will likely grow a bit by announcement time. Keep your ears peeled to alt.sys.pdp10 for details. There will be about 200-300 Megabytes of PDP-10 (TOPS-10 and TOPS-20) DECUS freeware, too. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From aek at spies.com Thu Nov 25 12:35:08 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Your message to ClassicCmp Message-ID: <199911251835.KAA31570@spies.com> "very shortly (as in the next week or two) there will be a public archive available with TOPS-10 distribution tape images, sources, build kits, etc. Total quantity of stuff (at the moment) is in the few hundred megabyte range, and will likely grow a bit by announcement time. Keep your ears peeled to alt.sys.pdp10 for details. There will be about 200-300 Megabytes of PDP-10 (TOPS-10 and TOPS-20) DECUS freeware, too." This is WONDERFUL news! Thanks, Tim! From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Nov 25 12:09:11 1999 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: RH11 Message-ID: John B. mentioning having some RH11 board reminded me ... Does anyone have an RH11 *manual* they'd be willing to part with? I asked a similar question on the info-pdp11 list recently, but got no leads... Thanks, --Pat. From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 25 12:44:43 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: "John B"'s message of "Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:15:37 -0500" References: <002c01bf3747$35bf5300$0977e2d1@default> Message-ID: >>>>> "John" == John B writes: John> That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why John> scrapping a Vax 11/780 would break your heart when there are John> probably at least 100,000 left in mills out there... and no John> one wants them! It's not that hard. Just remember that attraction to something/somebody is not related to the whole number in the whole planet, but instead the number you have access to. I can give you millions of examples. I understand you treat Vaxes like garbage because you have handled so many of them. But I, for instance, have never touched an actual Vax, and therefore I feel a _different_ thing. Do you see? Different experiences mean different evaluations of reality. This is not hard to understand, is it? Take women! There are millions of Pamela-Anderson-alike in the planet, yet any (straight) man can't help from being attracted, can he? (with or without artificial boobs, I guess... 8-))))) Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 25 12:56:14 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: NCD 15r + monitor 15b Message-ID: Hi. I just got my hands on an NCD mono X term model 15r and I'd like to know what are the sync frequencies of this monitor. Any information about this terminal is also extremely welcome! My idea: to hack an adapter to connect this monitor to a Xerox Daybreak workstation. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Nov 25 13:02:31 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Archives and Computer Museum History Center Message-ID: <991125140231.20200bf5@trailing-edge.com> Dag Spicer wrote (about the goals of the CM History Center): >>>4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a >>> way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest. >> >>You're ahead of me... what do you mean by archived? I would think that >>private sites would be kept up by the owner... >One of the concerns we have at the Center is that while there are superb >computer history sites out there run by individuals, there is no >institutional architecture for ensuring that they can continue past the >sponsor's lifetime or (much more likely) even five years. As you know, >some of these sites are simply superb and irreplaceable resources whose >loss would be gravely felt. If we take the geological timescale into >account (50 years for computers!), there is a real concern that such >wonderful resources might no longer be maintained after some finite amount >of time. I think you'll agree this is a pretty reasonable conclusion. Certainly, in this day and age, after an archive of information is *organized* getting it *distributed* isn't such a big deal. For instance, I've been archiving all PDP-11 (and also PDP-10) DECUS software/freeware that I've been able to get my hands on for most of this decade. The collection started out as hundreds of reels of 9-track tape, lots of 8" floppies, etc. Now the PDP-1n freeware collection, several Gigabytes in size, resides on a handful of CD-ROM's which the public can access through anonymous FTP, a web site, and they can also order CD-ROM copies through Amazon.com. Does it take a concerted effort to package a widely dispersed collection into such a tiny and potent package? Of course! None of this would have been possible without my networked PDP-11's here in the lab with tape and disk drives to read the old distribution media. But after it gets distilled, it's easily distributed. I can pop a CD volume into the mail for a few bucks, compared to the hundreds of pounds of original tapes and disks that the software was originally distributed on. And - as icing on the cake - real PDP-11's with attached CD-ROM readers can directly read the CD's, since the CD's are available with native PDP-11 filesystems on them. So, in many respects, things are much easier today than they were a decade ago. What *isn't* so easy is tracking down the "originals" and convincing their owners that it is a good thing for the contents of their archives to be copied to more modern media. Now, it may seem like a no-brainer to many folks here that this is the "obvious" thing to do, but let me tell you, getting my hands on stuff to put into the archive is like pulling teeth sometimes. Usually the tapes are stacked in the back of a warehouse or in someone's basement, in less than ideal storage conditions, and just getting their current owner(s) to drop them in a Fedex box and send them to me (on my Fedex account number, so they're not out any money) can be an ordeal. So, Dag, let me ask you this: what efforts are being made at the Computer Museum History Center to archive media in the collection? While my personal efforts have been concentrated on PDP-11's and PDP-10's, I'm certain the Center has a wider range (and older collections) of information that can be transcribed to modern media. Most of what you have is several decades old by now, I would guess, and you've got a coherent plan to check the condition of the media and copy them to more modern forms when possible, right? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Nov 25 13:03:41 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Software Archive In-Reply-To: <991125132926.20200acc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > [...] but very shortly (as in the next week or two) there > will be a public archive available with TOPS-10 distribution tape images, > sources, build kits, etc. Total quantity of stuff (at the moment) is > in the few hundred megabyte range, and will likely grow a bit by > announcement time. Keep your ears peeled to alt.sys.pdp10 for details. > > There will be about 200-300 Megabytes of PDP-10 (TOPS-10 and TOPS-20) > DECUS freeware, too. Tim, you RULE! (and/or whoever's making the archive available, too!) -Seth From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 25 13:42:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: NCD 15r + monitor 15b Message-ID: <002601bf377d$330887e0$0400c0a8@winbook> NCD apparently just private-brand-labelled monitors from HITACHI among others. If you take the plastic off, you'll likely find a "real" manufacturer's name and model number. good luck! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:59 AM Subject: NCD 15r + monitor 15b > > Hi. I just got my hands on an NCD mono X term model 15r and >I'd like to know what are the sync frequencies of this monitor. > > Any information about this terminal is also extremely welcome! > > My idea: to hack an adapter to connect this monitor to a Xerox >Daybreak workstation. > > Cheers, > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 25 13:52:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <199911251952.OAA00643@world.std.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 24, 99 Message-ID: >>> >For example. Put the logic probe on MD0 (MSB) on the backplane and >>> >deposit 7777. It blips low, right? Now examine that location (assumed to >>> >be a 'working' location) -- it blips low again. >>> > >>> >Now look at MD11 (LSB) and do the same things. >>> >>> All 12 lines of the MD Bus look to be functioning both ways. This was >>> tested with the proper voltage hooked up to the probe. >> >>Well, if all 12 data lines are doing the same thing when you deposit and >>examine 7777, then the memory may well be working, and the problem may be >>on the CPU boards. I will have a look at the prints and tech manual when >>I have a few minutes. > >I might not have been totally clear here, when the data goes one direction, >it sets the line high, when it goes the other direction it sets it low. Or >should it be doing something else? > >Hope to be able to get back at this tomorrow night, or first thing this >morning. OK, I started thinking about this last night when I should have been sleeping :^) So I decided I'd better do some more checking. First I've decided I appear to be backwords, let me guess on the front panel the MSB is '11'? I was really getting confused/worried till I realized that apparently I'm reversing things again. OK, if I load a specific address, and deposit 7777 blips low, when I load that address and examine it, it goes high. It doesn't seem to matter what bit I'm checking (MD0-MD11). However, when I fill a whole address range with 7777, and start examining it, I get 'pulses' on MD4-MD11, but not on MD0-MD3. Note, this obviously isn't happening on xxx0-xxx3 since that's not fixed. Tonite I should be able to start checking the G104 board. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 13:30:51 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Got a partial list of some of this load... (FUJITSU/VAX) Message-ID: <012601bf377b$956e4480$0977e2d1@default> ?? notes I am not sure if I got the number right. RA81 - 3 of them RA81 - 3 more RA82 - 6 TA81?? (tape) TU81/82? HSC50AA Vax 6000/610 63AMDYE SA600 HSC50 Omnigraphic Recorder (still more to come on this unit) (partial fujitsu - this is the smaller, older of the two): F6470A M770 N770 F1751E F6425GB4 F170051- (something) F6425GA?4 F675AC Does anyone know any of these Fujitsu part numbers? The fujitsu has: 2 - 2000LPM printers, 2 "coke machine" type 50 minimum capacity tape cartridge robots [thats what they described it as], and two CPUs. More peripherals... haven't gotten that far yet with their purchasing officer... I have found out they will be scrapping two VAX8000 series units (huge) along with the 750s, some micro vaxes [many] (oops, can't say that --- undesirables) and the other stuff in the next few months. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 25 14:54:00 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Your message to ClassicCmp References: <199911251835.KAA31570@spies.com> Message-ID: <383DA1E8.F0A26F48@softstar.it> Al Kossow wrote: > > "very shortly (as in the next week or two) there > will be a public archive available with TOPS-10 distribution tape images, > sources, build kits, etc. Total quantity of stuff (at the moment) is > in the few hundred megabyte range, and will likely grow a bit by > announcement time. Keep your ears peeled to alt.sys.pdp10 for details. > > There will be about 200-300 Megabytes of PDP-10 (TOPS-10 and TOPS-20) > DECUS freeware, too." > > This is WONDERFUL news! Indeed great news. Too bad there will never be a similar announcement for PDP-10 hardware 8-( e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Nov 25 15:08:37 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Got a partial list of some of this load... (FUJITSU/VAX) References: <012601bf377b$956e4480$0977e2d1@default> Message-ID: <007d01bf3789$3ea04000$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John B To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, 26 November 1999 6:00 Subject: Got a partial list of some of this load... (FUJITSU/VAX) > Vax 6000/610 63AMDYE Be sure and check the right hand cage and count the cpu boards. They often get extras added after-market, and the placard on the front usually doesn't get changed. A 6210 can be a 6340 in disguise. (I have seen several like that) BTW, the 600 series is the fastest of the 6000's, but 500 & 600 series cpus won't run in a 200/300 or 400 series chassis without a backplane mod or an extra card in the XMI cage to deliver some different voltages it needs. Bound to be someone who would like the whole machine, I haven't seen a 500 or 600 series 6000 at a scrapper here yet.. (I want one!) > I have found out they will be scrapping two VAX8000 series units (huge) It will be harder to save these. They are truly huge, both size/weight and power/cooling requirements wise. > along with the 750s, some micro vaxes [many] (oops, can't say that --- > undesirables) LOTS of people would like 750's & microvaxes I'm sure. Sigh. Pity you are on the wrong side of the bloody ocean. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 13:36:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <383CEF11.6CF7B1B2@softstar.it> from "Enrico Badella" at Nov 25, 99 09:10:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2321 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/02ee6c52/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 13:13:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Ugh, PC0 + PDP-8I problem. In-Reply-To: <002d01bf36f2$ca840b20$8c75e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 24, 99 10:11:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3029 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/23bfa195/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 13:21:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: <004301bf3702$33c0d140$8c75e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 25, 99 00:01:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2557 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/2e1efbf0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 15:02:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 25, 99 02:14:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/1ba9f1ce/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 15:09:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr In-Reply-To: <003d01bf3748$b6e99e80$0977e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 25, 99 08:26:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991125/2546fbd9/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 25 16:22:22 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) References: <004301bf3702$33c0d140$8c75e2d1@default> Message-ID: <99112517255504.02455@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >The fujitsu is *HUGE*... I doubt anyone here would want to even try and run >it. Its worth more in parts than whole. It's not old (6 maybe 7 years).. so >what does one do?? The boards are nice, they look great.. Collectors are >looking for this kind of stuff to hang on their walls... can't possibly run >it. That's a big assumption. I know someone who would want it...and want to *run* it...and has the heat/power/space capabilities to do so. I can't speak for him of course, but I'll be he'd be interested right now. But was anyone ever given the chance? Supercomputers rarely have high resale value because of the specificity of their applications. That translates to "worthless", or relatively so when compared with their often-multimillion-dollar new cost. The important thing to note, however, is that WORTHless != USEless. Somewhere, there will be someone who would peel off their fingernails to get their hands on such a machine. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 25 16:26:44 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Oscilloscopes References: <383CEF11.6CF7B1B2@softstar.it> Message-ID: <99112517300205.02455@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Enrico Badella wrote: >> > Does your friend have a 1A? spectrum analyser plugin for a 545? I have no use >> > for it but always dreamed to have one ;-) >> >> You mean a 1L? (1L5, 1L10, 1L20, 1L30 IIRC). It's on my wish list as well :-) > >You are probably correct. I have buried this wish since you cannot find >them easily in Italy unless you are willing to shove out at least 800 euros >This make me wonder who is still using 5xx scopes and has that kind of >money to spend. No a hobbyist certainly. I know of lots of shops and labs (and lots of colleges, as well) who are still using 5xx-series scopes. It's not like they stop working or anything, they're just "not the latest thing". They work just fine. That's why those higher-end plugins still hold their value. A 5xx scope with a 1Lx spec-an plugin is an affordable, easy way to get a nice spectrum analyzer. Most people usually can't touch a "real" (dedicated) spectrum analyzer (even a moldy-oldy!) for anywhere near that price. With even older HP141-series units pulling upwards of US$1000 with the 18GHz plugin, those large heat-producing Tek 5xx units with 1Lx plugins start to look real appealing. :) -Dave McGuire From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 25 16:43:07 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Why do we like/dislike/abhor/love certain machines so much? In-Reply-To: from Rodrigo Ventura at "Nov 25, 1999 6:44:43 pm" Message-ID: <199911252243.RAA00525@pechter.dyndns.org> > >>>>> "John" == John B writes: > > John> That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why > John> scrapping a Vax 11/780 would break your heart when there are > John> probably at least 100,000 left in mills out there... and no > John> one wants them! > > It's not that hard. Just remember that attraction to > something/somebody is not related to the whole number in the whole > planet, but instead the number you have access to. I can give you > millions of examples. I understand you treat Vaxes like garbage > because you have handled so many of them. But I, for instance, have > never touched an actual Vax, and therefore I feel a _different_ > thing. Do you see? Different experiences mean different evaluations of > reality. This is not hard to understand, is it? > > he? (with or without artificial boobs, I guess... 8-))))) > > Cheers, > -- > *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura Having maybe a hundred of them 11/780 Vaxes myself, I think I agree with you seeing them scrapped is a pity. Actually I feel the same thing about AT&T6300's... However, I wouldn't miss the 11/730, 11/04 and an 11/40 although I love 11/34A's, 11/45-55's, 11/70's and 11/750's and 11/780's and 8600's. Some machines just feel special and touch a part of me that others do not. I even admit to favorite 386, 486, 586 and Mac machines. Yet, I have no emotional attachment to the Perkin Elmer 3200 series, Masscomp 6000 or 7000 series (I like the 5xxx)... It's very much a personal issue. Some machines have an interesting history, design or feel. Some are just fun to touch and play with. Some remind me of my past work and jobs. Some just plain look cool. Some are a lousy, uncooperative ornery piece of hardware that needs shooting. The 11/782 sucks. When taken apart and made to two 11/780's it's much better. Bill Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 25 17:06:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: <004301bf3702$33c0d140$8c75e2d1@default> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991125145139.02116cb0@mcmanis.com> John, Would it be correct to say that you define "collectible computer" as a computer with "high resale value" ? If so then I think I understand the problem here. There are many people on this list who willingly buy machines that have zero resale value just because they want to run them and use them. The list's definition of collectible might be "Any computer that any person might want to posses." and by that definition damn near everything is "collectible." You mention that you used to "scrap 8/Es and 8/Ms, but now you will keep them." I presume you will "keep them" because some people on Ebay have paid over $1000 each for them. Think about what it means that people on this list have been collecting PDP-8s even when they were still being built. That should tell you something. You're plan to mention things you are thinking about scrapping on the list first is a good one. Since they are "worthless" to you, and since you are "scrapping" them, you should not have any objection to selling them to someone on the list who will pay to have it transported for the same price that the scrapper would give you, right? Logically this should be true, since you profess that you don't care about these systems, and yet somehow given your other postings I think that if someone actually expressed an interest in something you were scrapping you might want to get much more for it. I can't know so you will have to tell us what the "scrap value" of the machine is. You've also mentioned that MicroVaxes are "worthless" but I can tell you that for the people running NetBSD and VMS on them they are a lot of fun. The BA23/BA123's are more interesting to me personally but the later ones are interesting to others. From a sociology point of view, people on this list will regret it when you say "I've got a VAX 8000 coming that I've got no room for, so unless someone wants to come pick it up by X/X/XX I'll send it to the scrap yard." People on the list will actually get angry when you say, "I just picked up a load of stuff but quickly jettisoned a couple of VAX 8000s to the scrappers, whoee what pigs." Everyone knows that all machines can't be saved, but many of us would go to extraordinary lengths to save machines we really wanted. For example I would fly to Canada and drive out a PDP-11/55 if I could find one. But I wouldn't leave the San Francisco bay area to save an IBM 1401. I know another person who is completely the opposite, he would jump immediately to save an old IBM box and leave the DEC machine to the vultures. So if you want to be popular (and I concede that there is no profit per se in being so), give the list a heads up on the "40 - 50 minis" you go through every year. It may be that only an additional 10 or 20 a year get saved but that would be something. --Chuck From donm at crash.cts.com Thu Nov 25 17:05:06 1999 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: (fwd) 1976 Apple-I (Apple-ONE) up for auction sale Message-ID: From: Don Maslin To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: (fwd) 1976 Apple-I (Apple-ONE) up for auction sale -- forwarded message -- Path: thoth.cts.com!sd-i2.cts.com!dave314x From: dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: 1976 Apple-I (Apple-ONE) up for auction sale Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:20:46 -0800 Organization: CTS Network Services Lines: 5 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: thoth.cts.com 943557656 79711 205.163.0.3 (25 Nov 1999 19:20:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@cts.com Xref: thoth.cts.com alt.folklore.computers:23498 Details: http://members.cts.com/sd/d/dave314x -- end of forwarded message -- From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 16:56:11 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <008801bf3798$448fe1a0$3f45d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:28 PM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >>The fujitsu is *HUGE*... I doubt anyone here would want to even try and run >>it. Its worth more in parts than whole. It's not old (6 maybe 7 years).. so >>what does one do?? The boards are nice, they look great.. Collectors are >>looking for this kind of stuff to hang on their walls... can't possibly run >>it. > > That's a big assumption. I know someone who would want it...and want to >*run* it...and has the heat/power/space capabilities to do so. I can't speak >for him of course, but I'll be he'd be interested right now. > > But was anyone ever given the chance? > You are talking right out of line here Dave. I haven't even picked up the units yet. When I do, I will offer it (as I have everything else)... Start reading the messages first Dave.. I am starting to understand why scrappers/factories won't take your calls and just melt the stuff. > Supercomputers rarely have high resale value because of the specificity of >their applications. That translates to "worthless", or relatively so when >compared with their often-multimillion-dollar new cost. The important thing to >note, however, is that WORTHless != USEless. Somewhere, there will be someone >who would peel off their fingernails to get their hands on such a machine. > That's right. EBay seems to bring people together that way.. WORTHLESS = NOT WORTH THE MONEY TO PAY FOR AND PICK UP. However, the Fujitsu might be worth some bucks as parts... and just might make 4 others *work* again. > -Dave McGuire > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 17:00:58 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr Message-ID: <008d01bf3798$efa6b5a0$3f45d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Grrrrrr >> Exactly, reality kicks in. You can't run a big IBM in your home... sorry, > >Care to explain why not? I am pretty sure there are collectors in the UK >with 308x IBM mainframes that they're either running or fully intend to >get running. > >> not going to happen. People only want the minis they can run easily at home >> and something that does not disrupt the house as it is. > WOW! Thats amazing.. Great! When I post it here then I should expect someone to buy the system right??????? >That's news to me... I want machines that are _difficult_ to run (the >easy ones are no challenge...). And disrupting the house is no real >problem either... > >> >> Most collectors want: > >If ever there had to be proof of the damage that these sort of >'collectors' are doing to the history of computing then this is it. > >> That's right,,, they are all wrong and you are *right*????? >> The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) >> An old transistor mini >> Maybe a PDP-8/11.... > >Fortunately, few of us here are 'most collectors'. People here do not >(necessarily) want the 'popular' machines. Many of us what the machines >we had never heard of... > Mee too. I have quite a colelction myself.. (and not the popular ones) >> >> Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. > >If ever I find out that you've scrapped certain machines, the known >number of which remaining can be counted on the fingers of one hand (in >unary!), then I will not be responsible for my actions. > HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH.. That's funny .. sit here and whine about the minis being crushed but you do *nothing* proactive to seek out and *save* those units... All wind, no action gets you .............................. http://www.pdp8.com/ john >-tony > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 17:11:44 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) Message-ID: <009201bf379a$70957ec0$3f45d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:09 PM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >> >> >> >> Grrrrrr. >> > >> >I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >> >"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. > >And I'll agree with you two... > >> >I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any >> >particular computer is prohibited by this list's FAQ and Rules (and I'd >> >definitely say that calling a whole class of machines junk would be >> >bashing). > >Yep!... > >> > >> >When some of us go hunting in Dumpsters and scrapyards for measly old >> >micros, while working minis are being gleefully hauled to the shredder for >> >gold content, it kind of makes you wonder if it's all worth it. > >Some of us only see 1 or 2 interesting machines every year. And some of >us spend _months_ trying to track down an obscure option or manual for >our machines. And then we get people like this appearing... > You are not proactive ,.. sorry, that meant you actually have to financially commit to get more minis! >> > >> >Richard >> > >> >> First, I have never brought any kind of mini/micro to a gold reclaimer... If >> I get a system I really don't want I either take the boards out and have the >> rest crushed or ask one of my scrapper friends to cut it up. "I'll get what > >I am not sure what the difference is, since it means one less interesting >computer in the world. > > That's right,, easy to say save every mini when you don't do anything pro-active. Tell you what Tony.. I gave addresses for 30,000 pounds of systems today.. Who here is committed to flying into those sites , pay for them, remove them and then SHIP THEM! >[...] > >> We should resolve this issue... What is a collectable computer?? I think > >Simple, a collectable computer is one that somebody wants to collect. And >there are people here who want to collect just about everything that ever >computed... > I Agree. >> there are enough COCO-2s in collections to cover all of Toronto... should I >> still hoard and buy every unit I see? I realize this is a touchy issue so I > >Well, there's another issue here. > >If you buy up a machine and scrap it, then it's gone, period. > >If you don't then somebody else will buy it. Most likely they'll scrap >it, so it's still gone. But there's a small (but non-zero) chance that it >will be bought by somebody who actually wants to use it again. Large companies don't offer "pick and chose"... you really haven't called companies or factories have you to bid on a lot? > >I am _not_ at all convinced that you're helping to preserve computers. Again, the couch potato approach.. Much easier to think the minis will go to nice place when bought by scrappers. > >> I am looking for. For the most part I will get stuck dealing with a lot of >> VAX 11/78Xs, IBMs, some Supercomputers (like the Fujitsu) and a lot of >> PDP-11s. None of these computers are rare in any way and are quite abundant > >This is obviously a definition of 'rare' that I am not used to. FWIW, >none of those machines are at all common in my experience... > That's because you aren't doing anything to look for them. I can't remember the last time a Vax 11/780 fell out of the sky. >> among collectors. They are heavy, difficult to deal with and not profitable. > >Ah... You're doing this to make a profit. No wonder I can't understand it. > and God forbid I make some guy happy getting him a machine he has always wanted than telling him to wait for one to fall out of the sky and hit him. Oh, and let the machine he has always wanted go to the melter! Get a grip! http://www.pdp8.com/ john >-tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 25 18:13:38 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) References: <008801bf3798$448fe1a0$3f45d1d8@default> Message-ID: <99112519155407.03645@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >> But was anyone ever given the chance? > >You are talking right out of line here Dave. I haven't even picked up the >units yet. When I do, I will offer it (as I have everything else)... Start >reading the messages first Dave.. Ok, my mistake, then. I stand corrected, and I apologize. >I am starting to understand why scrappers/factories won't take your calls >and just melt the stuff. Well actually I don't really dabble in that business...if I had more time I would probably try. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 25 19:10:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 25, 99 02:14:04 am Message-ID: >Yes, it's very similar to the 7401 (and to one other 74xx chip that I >forget). > >There's some difference in drive capability and/or output saturation >voltage, but practically, if your Omnibus/Unibus isn't that long you can >use a 7401 as a bus driver in DEC machines. OK, seeing as how the 7401 can more or less be substituted for a 8881 I've got a question that belongs in the "Wacko File". I've been trying to see if there are any equivalents to a 384 or 8251. I've not found one yet for the 384, but the 7442 and the 7445 both look fairly simular to the 8251, unfortunatly the pinouts are wrong. What is to stop me from building a setup that will convert a 7442 to a 8251. Or doing the same thing for the 384 when I find a chip that will work? It would probably involve running wires from where the chip is supposed to go, to a socket with the actual chip. It looks to me like it would be work, but I don't know what kind of problems that might cause. >> Well, there is at least one person locally that might have some spares if >> I'm lucky. I don't suppose they're used on MicroVAXen or if necessary >> Q-Bus PDP-11's > >Unlikely. You might find the odd one on Unibus boards, but I'd rather not >strip one of those. Oh, I was hoping on some of the LSI-11 stuff I've got that is the same age. I don't want to go tearing up Unibus boards if I can help it. In either case I'd make good notes and put them with the donor board so it could be repaired at a later date. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Nov 25 19:11:07 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: <009201bf379a$70957ec0$3f45d1d8@default> Message-ID: <4.1.19991125200549.00cf9100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:11 PM 11/25/99 -0500, John B said something like: >>Some of us only see 1 or 2 interesting machines every year. And some of >>us spend _months_ trying to track down an obscure option or manual for >>our machines. And then we get people like this appearing... >> > >You are not proactive ,.. sorry, that meant you actually have to financially >commit to get more minis! So, all of us who want to be proactive and save interesting machines will become high rollers first :-/ --Chris -- -- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 25 19:22:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991125172114.0211abd0@mcmanis.com> I've got some 8251's on some PDP-8 prototype boards, presumably they could be carefully desoldered and re-used. If you are interested in trying this Zane let me know. I think I have one board extra that I can send you. --Chuck From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 25 18:38:49 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:45 2005 Subject: LET'S (old topic)/and PDP-8I code/update Message-ID: <00e201bf37a6$9b28bba0$3f45d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >Upon the date 06:11 PM 11/25/99 -0500, John B said something like: > >>>Some of us only see 1 or 2 interesting machines every year. And some of >>>us spend _months_ trying to track down an obscure option or manual for >>>our machines. And then we get people like this appearing... >>> >> >>You are not proactive ,.. sorry, that meant you actually have to financially >>commit to get more minis! > >So, all of us who want to be proactive and save interesting machines will >become high rollers first :-/ > no. just put out the money, time and space to house such units. We all know that is not cheap. Fortunatly, I am able to fill a void and make some $$ in the process. and I wasn't refering to you., I know you have done some trips. -------------------------------------------------------- now off that topic: I got the 8I finally to lead a tape properly.. First a quick memory tester: ; 22 = FIRST ADDRESS TO START WRITING PATTERN TO ; 23 = CURRENT ADDRESS BEING WRITTEN TO. START 10 7200 CLA ; CLEAR ACCUMULATOR 11 1022 TAD 22 12 3023 DCA 23 ; SET ADDRESS COUNTER MAIN 13 7064 LAS ; LOAD ACC WITH SR CONTENTS 14 3423 DCAI 23 ; STORE PATTERN IN MEMORY 15 1423 TADI 23 ; LOAD WRITTEN DATA. (SHOUDL CAUSE A PARITY ERROR HERE IS MEMORY BAD) 16 2023 ISZ 23 ; IF ADDRESS=0 , INC 23, SKIP NEXT INSTRUCTION TO START LOOP OVER 17 5013 JMP 13 ; GOTO MAIN 20 7200 CLA 21 5011 JMP 11 ; GOTO START (RESTART) 22 0024 ; FIRST ADDRESS TO START WRITING PATTERN TO. 23 0 ; TEMP VAR, CURRENT ADDRESS TO WRITE PATTEN TO. This routine will test all locations from 24->7777 Play with the SR and see if you can creat a pattern to cause the PDP-8 to crap out. IF it does you know which location the problem occured at by looking at the MA register. The 8I ran this well. I found out the problem was a bad solder joint on the paper tape reader causing too much gain on certain holes.. (thereby causing bad reads at high speed). I am going to put up a bunch of little programs on my webpage so folks can test devices without trying to get a paper tape up (will do TTY, and maybe basic INST test, and some more core tests) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > --Chris >-- -- > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 19:58:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: <009201bf379a$70957ec0$3f45d1d8@default> from "John B" at Nov 25, 99 06:11:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/2e952e57/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 20:04:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 25, 99 05:10:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1864 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/f897a613/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 25 19:29:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr In-Reply-To: <008d01bf3798$efa6b5a0$3f45d1d8@default> from "John B" at Nov 25, 99 06:00:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/b0c11ef8/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 25 22:25:27 1999 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems Message-ID: <19991126042527.69214.qmail@hotmail.com> Zane, I have loads of 8251's all pulled from various things, not desoldered all socketed.. I have 1000+ ICs from all kinds of stuff... Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 25 22:32:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Some Progress on -8/m Mem problems Message-ID: <199911260432.XAA00943@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991125204409.00c435c0@mail.netcare.com> I thought the list might appreciate a few highlights from our exhibit area. For the past several years, the History Center has been working with KRON Television (San Jose) journalist Stan Bunger to produce short computer history segments for television. Twenty-five of these are available on-line as streaming videos at the following location: http://www.newmedianews.com/tech_hist/ We hope to have a QTVR tour of our entire exhibit area (which has just doubled) sometime next year so that anyone the world over can "visit" the Center without leaving their chair! The new area will feature a special section on DEC computer history, microcomputers, and the Internet (including the fabled Internet Van, parked right in the exhibit area!) while the exisiting space is being re-configured to showcase punch card machines, mechanical calcualtors, machines from the vacuum tube and transistor eras, and supercomputers. Anyone interested in helping out with the digitizing of our exhibits, please drop me a line--you do not necessarily have to be in the Bay Area! Hope you enjoy the highlights. Best wishes, Dag. -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer@computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 25 22:50:39 1999 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post Message-ID: <19991126045039.84669.qmail@hotmail.com> DOH! I should read all the posts next time... I was thinking Intel 8251's... However, if there is interest I could make a list of all my extra IC's... some are pretty dang old. I also have all the schematics, software, etc. for the Nova 1210. However, I need help with mine... I plugged it in after reassembly and it works, but I quickly turned the key to off and unplugged it cuz I noticed smoke coming from one of the capacitors on the back of the backplane.. I either plugged the power connectors in backwards or the supply is faulty, any ideas on how to diagnose this? I have the schematics but they show a totally different supply than what is in the machine... I got the Nova from a guy I met through Usenet. He said he had a microVAX 3100 and a VAXstation 3100 for me, if I would go get them, as well as a VMS gray wall. So I went up and got the stuff, and while I was loading it we started talking... he mentioned he still had his first computer, a Nova 1210, up in his attic... so we went up and dug it out and he said it wouldn't boot... opened it up and the PSU was loose inside, bending the boards. He then said i could have it if I wanted it, but he didn't think I'd want it because it didn't boot. So I carried it down and put in the car, with the board all out of it in antistat bags. It has 8K of core! Woohoo! Anyways, I happened to notice a bunch of manuals and some binders marked "Cray Research" in the trash area... I asked and he said they were mine if I wanted them... So I got an orange wall also.. as well as gems like VAX-11 FORTRAN and a complete UNICOS manual set for the Cray Y-MP/216. I also have VAX-11 C on 9 track. Unfortunately, he said I should have met him earlier, since he had already taken a microVAX I to the dump.. I did get three random Qbus boards though. Then he said his son down the street has some PDP-11's I can have.. so I need to go back.. I still haven't gotten the Teletype either... Also I have found a source of PDP-8 boards, don't know how many or what they are but I can get them Sunday... Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 25 23:06:05 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post References: <19991126045039.84669.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <383E153D.2810139F@mainecoon.com> Will Jennings wrote: [snip] > I also have all the schematics, software, > etc. for the Nova 1210. However, I need help with mine... I plugged it in > after reassembly and it works, but I quickly turned the key to off and > unplugged it cuz I noticed smoke coming from one of the capacitors on the > back of the backplane.. I either plugged the power connectors in backwards > or the supply is faulty, any ideas on how to diagnose this? I have the > schematics but they show a totally different supply than what is in the > machine... I'm not sure what power connectors you might have plugged in backwards; the 1200 and the 800 use the same form factor power supplies which used edge connectors to mate with resistor boards. You also said the thing worked before some cap on the backplane started smoking; I'd personally suspect the cap in question. There were two different power supplies used in the 800/1200, a "dual +5" supply and the "plain old" 800/1200 supply. The easiest way to tell the difference is to look at what's feeding pin one of U1; if it comes off of a 1N5225 it's a dual +5 supply; if it comes off a 2N4400 which in turn is fed by a 1N5248 it's the "plain old" version. Of course it's been a while since I've looked closely at a 1220... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Nov 26 00:09:39 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Got a partial list of some of this load... (FUJITSU/VAX) Message-ID: <0.d58f955e.256f7e23@aol.com> Did I miss where this stuff is located, shipping info? Paxton From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 25 23:52:04 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Does anybody have a Westinghouse 1600? In-Reply-To: <199911252243.RAA00525@pechter.dyndns.org> References: from Rodrigo Ventura at "Nov 25, 1999 6:44:43 pm" Message-ID: Does anybody have a Westinghouse 1600? Or a GE550? (again, just curious) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 25 23:58:44 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: (fwd) 1976 Apple-I (Apple-ONE) up for auction sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Details: http://members.cts.com/sd/d/dave314x VALUE: 1976: $ 666 (**A) 1984: 12,500 (**B) 1997: 40,000 (**C) 1999: 59,000 est. (**D) 2009: 414,000 projected (**E) ********* I think the **D is for dreaming. I would be VERY surprised if an open offer by any legitimate museum of about $10k would not get them a WORKING unit. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 26 00:19:46 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: nasty attitudes In-Reply-To: References: <009201bf379a$70957ec0$3f45d1d8@default> from "John B" at Nov 25, 99 06:11:44 pm Message-ID: I don't care for the mean spirit this discussion is going in. If someone has a PERSONAL issue with someone else, why not take it offline as private email? We have some VERY nice people on this list, people who donate huge amounts of their personal time and knowledge, space, and money to keeping old computers running, EVEN the ones they don't care that much about for themselves. There isn't room on this list for being nasty, rude, or hypocritical. From mdalene at home.ctol.net Fri Nov 26 00:33:00 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: do you still need XT parts? In-Reply-To: <199911220640.BAA12413@panix.com> Message-ID: Originally I did not, as at the time I dumped all of my Xt's I just happened to get another ORIGINAL IBM-XT system. its an Original IBM-PC system. so to answer your question. YES!!! I need to find a working 8 bit Ethernet card for it (NE1000?) or a Compaticard II or IV controller to Handle High Density disks. Right now it has a SEgate 8bit IDE controller card, which I would like to replace with a MFM card (I only have TWO ST3251A/X IDE drives. IDE and I are not on talking terms thoughi, IDE HATES ME, I want my SCSI or MFM! I would love to find another 8 bit SCSI Trantor Controller such as the T130B with the manual/software. Email back to me or call me at 860-423-2214 after 6PM Eastern Standard Time. ask for Michele Marie. For this brute, I need a CGA Monitor or color Composite monitor. Right now the system has a CGA/Composite Video board, I am using the Composite output to drive a Tandy VM11 (Actually the monitor is being used next door to watch TV (yeah its GREEN, but surpisingly its works great with DIRECTTV Satalite television.)). I have been looking for YEARS to get a Commodore 1702 Composite Monitor, This Commodore monitor supports standard Audio/Video in additon to S-VHS! video!! (you need a custom cable to be made to bring the Lumance and Chromance out as two RCA plugs though). An IBM-AT style keyboard by BTC would be nice. its not a clicky but I had one long ago on an old Hyundai XT that I used to have. Got one of those hiding around. I am going forward this to clasiccomp computers list also. I will summarise the pieces I am looking for below in detail: 1 Trantor T130B Scsi card with disks 1 Commodore 1702 Color Monitor (for computer/TV use) 1 BTC AT style keyboard that works on Xts 1 A better Motherboard (groan) or a new Bios for the IBM-Pc board. 1 Working 8 bit Ne1000 compatible 10base2 card/w packet drivers NCSA Telnet. Scsi Hard drives, any size from 40mb and up. 1 Cassette cable for the IBM-PC computer More US computer power cords! Memory! especially 4mb x 9 by 30pin simms at least 60ns (for the big bad ole 486 Linux file server 1 8087 math coprocessor chip for the XT (system is only 4.77mhz Hyndai/Blue Chip computer system. While we are on the commodore side (I am making this request to anyone that can help me here. In addition to the 1702. does anyone have a originall Commodore 64/128/128D computer and working 1541 floppy snail (if you know commodore, you know why the drive is a snail, I found a 1571. Only need a serial cable and the 1571 disks for that one and a 1541), Serial cables for drive, power cords, Datasette unit, (I have an Okimate 120 printer, not sure if it works though, a manual for this would help). serial cables Communications software. Rs232 serial adaptor (the thing that plugs into the user port/or quicklink II adaptor, fastload cartridge, software disks. I gave mine away, (sighhh, I want one again). I think some of my books are still at my parents. Might go home during Christmas to look for them. A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Jeff Jonas wrote: > I found a note that you were once asking for > a PC-XT hard disk controller. > Do you still need any parts? > > Jeffrey Jonas > jeffj@panix.com > From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 26 00:46:07 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: <99112519155407.03645@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: May I respectfully suggest that we agree to disagree. John, while he respects and retains some machines, is obviously in it primarily for the money. (I can't think of too many folk who can afford to take a year leave of absence without some kind of financial input.) It is totally apparent that many of you do not agree with his approach. On the other hand, he has offered certain opportunities to members of the list to obtain parts or machines that he purchases in the course of his business. I am willing to take this as a good faith offer to help those who collect for appreciation of the machine rather than for appreciation in value. I do not think that taking advantage of his offer really compromises the collecting for appreciation attitude, nor endorses his 'it's a business' approach. Perhaps we can all gain something from it. - don From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 26 00:23:09 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Corroding Core memory In-Reply-To: <0.9d7e4078.25619042@aol.com> Message-ID: >> I have some core memories stored in my garage which is relatively >> dry, but I don't like the risk that they get corroded. >> >Put them in an antistatic bag with a small bag of silica gel inside the bag. >Pack in a box with more silica gel. > >Silica gel is often reusable. Bake it in the oven to drive the moisture out. I wish I remembered the details, but make sure its a electric oven, or toaster oven as a gas oven has too much moisture. Something like 325 for half an hour. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 26 01:32:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Interesting... PDP-8/m Mem problems Message-ID: OK, granted I don't know what I'm doing, but... I don't think there is anything wrong with the G104 board. I've been examining E24 and E28. The problem with E28 is it's not getting any input, and unless I'm mistaken E24 isn't either. The board is broken into 3 sections, and I've also checked the section next to it to get a better idea of what I should be seeing. Now for some very un-technical talk. I've been trying to find the lines that bring the bits from the Core board to the G104 board. As far as I can tell the bits are brought over on the back side of connectors 'F' and 'G'. There are 12 dual pin groups. The four that correspond to E24 and E28 aren't acting right. With the logic probe, when examining locataions, I only get a beep on the 8 that are acting right when it checks Memory locations: xxx0 - xxx3 (the ones effected by the bad 8251 on the G227 board). On the other 4 I always get a beep, no matter what location. So.... My conclusion is that the section on G104 that contains E24 and E28 isn't getting any bits, and may very well be a totally functional section. Having said that, I'm more than a little stumped as to how to attack the Core Board itself seeing as how it's sandwiched between two other baords. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 26 01:37:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) In-Reply-To: References: <99112519155407.03645@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Finally, a voice of reason in this whole arguement. I've been staying out of this, but now the time has come for me to jump in. BUT, only to agree with Don. Folks, let's drop it! Zane BTW, in case anyone missed it I'm copying Don's message below! > > >May I respectfully suggest that we agree to disagree. John, while he >respects and retains some machines, is obviously in it primarily for the >money. (I can't think of too many folk who can afford to take a year >leave of absence without some kind of financial input.) It is totally >apparent that many of you do not agree with his approach. > >On the other hand, he has offered certain opportunities to members of >the list to obtain parts or machines that he purchases in the course of >his business. I am willing to take this as a good faith offer to help >those who collect for appreciation of the machine rather than for >appreciation in value. I do not think that taking advantage of his >offer really compromises the collecting for appreciation attitude, nor >endorses his 'it's a business' approach. > >Perhaps we can all gain something from it. > > > - don | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 26 01:48:11 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <199911220640.BAA12413@panix.com> Message-ID: I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various styles now. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Fri Nov 26 01:57:27 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: 4381 (was: Re: Grrrrrr) References: <80256834.0049A1A6.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19991125080515.00becab0@mail.netcare.com> Message-ID: <383E3D67.2087BAA3@softstar.it> Dag Spicer wrote: > > Hi Enrico, > > You may heartened to know to that the History Center has a complete, > runnable, IBM 4381 in its collection. It was in use up to time of donation > (last October) at the A. C. Delco plant in Rochester, NY. > > The machine is on display and in excellent condition. All necessary > cabling, and I believe system software (we received about 100 reels of tape > we haven't read yet), a million punch cards (literally), and manuals formed > part of the donation. Is it running/runnable? Have you investigated the legal aspects of running the original IBM software on it? I received a mean letter from a guy, apparently not from IBM, saying it was illegal to run the VM version the previous owner had installed. Just now I saw thet you are the Editorial Board of the IEEE Annals. I love it. Why don't you add a small section dedicate to hobbyist restoration suggestions or ways to meet other guys/machines. I find it hard to locate other persons with this hobby, at least in Italy e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 26 02:06:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <199911220640.BAA12413@panix.com> Message-ID: >I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest >ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started >collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various >styles now. Seen the Psychedelic cords they ship on the new systems? :^) Hmmm, what's the screwiest... Um.... OK.... Hmmm..... OK, I'd say it's got to be classic computers as a whole. Seriously, the computer I'm typing this on does everything I need, and blows any other computer I use away. I've got legitement reasons for this and two other modern computers I've got. Then when I consider what I've spent on this hobby.... Yep, the craziest thing I collect is Classic Computers, the next craziest would be comic books, but that's a different story. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Nov 26 02:08:46 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: FW: FS: Rainbow & decmate stuff In-Reply-To: <943571262.98033@linux2.intcon.net> References: <943571262.98033@linux2.intcon.net> Message-ID: <2vfs3so6ovl6d8bv2fo1i7o3ltl19rribh@4ax.com> Rainbow and DECMate goodies for those who care to contact the author of the attached post... -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:15:02 -0600, in comp.sys.dec.micro you wrote: >>From: "SpaceKommander" >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro >>Subject: FS: Rainbow & decmate stuff >>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:15:02 -0600 >>Organization: Cottage Software Inc. & The Internet Connection >>Lines: 23 >>Message-ID: <943571262.98033@linux2.intcon.net> >>X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 >>Cache-Post-Path: linux2.intcon.net!unknown@20.ict-max.intcon.net >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec.micro:109 >> >>Happy Turkey Day! >>I'm stuffed with turkey and my house is stuffed with computer stuff. >> >>Time to clean out! >>Memory board fully stuffed with 256K chips (768K totak on board) for >>Rainbow - $10 >>Rainbow CPM 86/80 V 2.0 documentation pack >>Rainbow System Kit and Installation Instructions >>Rainbow MS-DOS operating System V 2.11 - all three above documentation packs >>for $10 >>Rainbow WPS documentation - in black binder rather than brown/grey box with >>purple stripe above three have. $5 >>DECmate Word Processing - The Basics and Word Processing - Options. 2 >>documentation packs - $5 for the pair. >>Rainbow 100 in tower case with RD50, floppies, fully populated memory >>expansion card and video expansion card. Works perfectly. Comes with >>keyboard, monitor (sorry - B&W, not color) and cables. $50 for all. >>RD-50 - works fine. $5 >>Prices do not include shipping. >> >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 26 02:08:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Fwd: VAX 11/730 System and 11/750 parts available Message-ID: I received the following message this morning, and due to the nature of VAX 11/730's I suggested he just send it to the list, but turns out he's not subscribed and asked if I could forward it. So here goes. As always, reply to the person below, not me. Zane >X-From_: allogagaw@megsinet.net Thu Nov 25 10:40:42 1999 >Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:16:39 -0600 >From: Mark Wilbur >Subject: VAX system on Classic Computers? >To: pechter@pechter.dyndns.org, healyzh@aracnet.com, allisonp@world.std.com, > jim@calico.litterbox.com, jfoust@threedee.com, mikeu@conan.ids.net >MIME-version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 > >Bill, Zane, Allison, John, Mike and Jim > >I picked your names at random off of >classiccmp@u.washington.edu >in part of a VAX tread. > >I have a VAX 11/730 system and parts from a 11/750 taking up space >in my hobby shop. I have not played with them in several years. > >I also have a complete 11/44 system. > >Given any interest, I will try to itemize the options. > > >These are old enfough to be classics. (or maybe still boat anchors) >Think it is worth offering on the list? or should I scrap them? > >I need more room for my PDP-8 stuff :-) > >Mark Wilbur - St. Louis, Mo. > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 26 06:26:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: (fwd) 1976 Apple-I (Apple-ONE) up for auction sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199911261130.MAA16509@mail2.siemens.de> Date sent: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:58:44 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Mike Ford To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: (fwd) 1976 Apple-I (Apple-ONE) up for auction sale > >Details: http://members.cts.com/sd/d/dave314x > VALUE: 1976: $ 666 (**A) > 1984: 12,500 (**B) > 1997: 40,000 (**C) > 1999: 59,000 est. (**D) > 2009: 414,000 projected (**E) > ********* > I think the **D is for dreaming. I would be VERY surprised if an open offer > by any legitimate museum of about $10k would not get them a WORKING unit. And **B is for Bold Whish - did you notice that he _WRITES_ into a book ? http://members.cts.com/sd/d/dave314x/uu1-cover1.html Also **C is for Crazy Boy, well, and both are just esimated values, Latrienengeruechte (in German, could be translated as latrine rumour ?sp?). None is based on a real sale. We all remember the different atempts to sell A1's at unresonable prices. And **D as a projection of 76->97, is, even when considering his basevalues, just a joke (he just ignores the '84 'measurement' otherwise he might get a declining increase ...) I'd be _very_ surprised if this will result in any sale above USD 4K. (And I'd be even more surprised if he will accept that). But since I belive that he will setup a min bid of 10K (or something similar unreasonable) he will get no bid at all. Gruss H. From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Nov 26 05:47:14 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: NCD 15r + monitor 15b In-Reply-To: <002601bf377d$330887e0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <002601bf377d$330887e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <19991126054714.K22335@mrbill.net> They also have a nice archive of older info (helped me get my NCD 19R netbooting off an Ultra5) at ftp://ftp.ncd.com/pub/ncd/Archive/index.html (when viewed with a web browser). Bill On Thu, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:42:24PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > NCD apparently just private-brand-labelled monitors from HITACHI among > others. If you take the plastic off, you'll likely find a "real" > manufacturer's name and model number. > good luck! > Dick > > Hi. I just got my hands on an NCD mono X term model 15r and > >I'd like to know what are the sync frequencies of this monitor. > > Any information about this terminal is also extremely welcome! > > My idea: to hack an adapter to connect this monitor to a Xerox > >Daybreak workstation. > > Cheers, -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From at258 at osfn.org Fri Nov 26 07:40:32 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: nasty attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I absolutely agree. Attacking each other gets us nowhere. I've been exchanging messages with John privately, and he seems to be a decent person. I've had wonder discussions with Tony, so I know he is too. People are just provoking eachother and it gets worse and worse. On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > I don't care for the mean spirit this discussion is going in. If someone > has a PERSONAL issue with someone else, why not take it offline as private > email? > > We have some VERY nice people on this list, people who donate huge amounts > of their personal time and knowledge, space, and money to keeping old > computers running, EVEN the ones they don't care that much about for > themselves. There isn't room on this list for being nasty, rude, or > hypocritical. > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Nov 26 09:28:33 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: IBM Re: 4381 In-Reply-To: <383E3D67.2087BAA3@softstar.it> References: <80256834.0049A1A6.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19991125080515.00becab0@mail.netcare.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991126101812.00a7c490@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:57 AM 11/26/99 +0100, Enrico Badella said something like: > >Dag Spicer wrote: >> >> Hi Enrico, >> >> You may heartened to know to that the History Center has a complete, >> runnable, IBM 4381 in its collection. It was in use up to time of donation >> (last October) at the A. C. Delco plant in Rochester, NY. >> >> The machine is on display and in excellent condition. All necessary >> cabling, and I believe system software (we received about 100 reels of tape >> we haven't read yet), a million punch cards (literally), and manuals formed >> part of the donation. > >Is it running/runnable? > >Have you investigated the legal aspects of running the original IBM software >on it? I received a mean letter from a guy, apparently not from IBM, saying >it was illegal to run the VM version the previous owner had installed. This is something I'm interested in too Dag and Enrico. Whenever I get to trying to bring up my IBM 9370 I think this may be a question I'd need to address if I try to approach active IBM CE's who could answer my questions if needed. I understand VSE is the OS on my machine. (Anybody got any VSE OS manuals??) > >Just now I saw thet you are the Editorial Board of the IEEE Annals. I love >it. Why don't you add a small section dedicate to hobbyist restoration >suggestions or ways to meet other guys/machines. I find it hard to >locate other persons with this hobby, at least in Italy Good point Enrico. It would be especially interesting if folks who would not normally be connected with collectors/ClassicCmp/etc. could discuss or offer email assistance, moral support to those of us who need it on certain machines. Incidentally, I'm pleased the AC Delco donated their 4381 to TCMHC. They're sort of in my back yard (130 miles from me) and they went the extra mile (no pun intended, really) to send it out to you. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 10:57:02 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: LET'S (old topic)/and PDP-8I code/update Message-ID: <19991126165702.3173.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > > I got the 8I finally to lead a tape properly.. First a quick memory tester: > > I am going to put up a bunch of little programs on my webpage so folks can > test devices without trying to get a paper tape up (will do TTY, and maybe > basic INST test, and some more core tests) > Thank you, John. That's just the sort of thing I can use right now. My PDP-8 assembler skills are _very_ rusty and its helpful to see working stuff that fits on one page to get my mind back in the right frame. I think it's been 15 years since I wrote anything from scratch. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Nov 26 00:16:22 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Does anybody have a Westinghouse 1600? In-Reply-To: References: <199911252243.RAA00525@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991126001622.29f70d00@earthlink.net> At 09:52 PM 11/25/99 -0800, Mike wrote: >Does anybody have a Westinghouse 1600? Or a GE550? (again, just curious) > Not me, but I do have some cards for a Westinghouse P250 (I think) computer All discrete components, some (gates?) wired as modules, cordwood style. Anybody have some info about this system. From the look, they are for some type of process control. -Dave From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 26 11:57:53 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <19991126.115755.60.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I collect bridge boards. I can't help it-- I have a fetish for bridge boards. All makes: Emulex, DTC, Xebec, WD, Adaptec, etc. All kinds of configurations: Cpu<->MFM (ala wd-1000), SASI<->MFM, SCSI<->ESDI, SASI<->QIC30, all kinds. The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. Docs are *really* hard to get. Still looking for the docs for the Emulex MD-23, possibly the best darned SCSI<->ESDI bridge ever made: Handles four drives at up to 24MHz data rate. Smokin'. 8" drives are interesting to me too, but I haven't seen too many in this neck of the woods. On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:48:11 -0800 Mike Ford writes: >I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the >screwiest >ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started >collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of >various >styles now. > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From aek at spies.com Fri Nov 26 12:07:54 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <199911261807.KAA32198@spies.com> "The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. Docs are *really* hard to get. Still looking for the docs for the Emulex MD-23, possibly the best darned SCSI<->ESDI bridge ever made: Handles four drives at up to 24MHz data rate. Smokin'. " They exist.. I'll check if a friend of mine still has any. I have a big pile of adapter docs. The only thing on line currently are for the Xebec 1410 and 1401. Next time I'm at my storage locker, I'll see if I can find the box that has all this stuff. I know that Tony asked me for some old OMTI info a LONG time ago. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Nov 26 12:15:34 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <991126131534.20200b51@trailing-edge.com> >The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. I believe the Adaptec boards are what were bolted onto the Fujitsu SMD drives I saw with a SCSI controller on them. I want to say that I've seen some OMTI ones too, but those may have been SASI. At one point I had a Pertec Formatted <- SCSI bridge, but it never interacted well with the hardware I wanted to use it with so it got traded away. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 26 12:51:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <001c01bf3840$67499080$0400c0a8@winbook> So you've had trouble getting 8" drives, eh . . . I've had trouble getting RID of most of mine, though I'm about there now. I still have a few DSDD types which I may use myself in the course of reconstructing my old S-100 boxes. A goodly share of my life's work has been designing bridge controllers of various sorts. SCSI<=>MIL STD 1553 is one you won't see often. I had to cook that one up when it turned out that a fellow contractor had claimed the had a 1553-interfaced WORM drive, when they really didn't. They did the full pitch and everything, and to our customer (NASA). They produced documents, part numbers, etc, yet when I started pressing for details, they buckled. It turned out that all they had was an objective spec. Our customer had based a whole chain of requirements on that pitch and the associated claims and passed them to us as requirements. My own interest in bridge controllers has been as tools. As you may have noticed, I have a number of hard/floppy controller bridges, but only a few different types. My goal is to be able to get hardware running in a hurry and bridge controllers are only helpful if you don't have to write new driver software for each application. The WD100x series was really handy for this, since once I had built a processor<=>WD100x interface cable adapter, the only thing that changed was drive parameters and controller address block. One of these days I'll up a SASI adapter as well, probably based on the code and instruction set for the XEBEC controller, since their code is published. There's code for an S-100 adapter example published in the ADAPTEC ACB4000 bridge controller series manual, but I've never tried that one out because I've heard it's compatible with the ADAPTEC boards but neither SCSI nor SASI. I guess you might say I tend to collect things that are "nearly" ready to use, though they seldom see any use. Is that screwy? Dick -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >I collect bridge boards. >I can't help it-- I have a fetish for bridge boards. All makes: >Emulex, DTC, Xebec, WD, Adaptec, etc. All kinds of configurations: >Cpu<->MFM (ala wd-1000), SASI<->MFM, SCSI<->ESDI, SASI<->QIC30, >all kinds. > >The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. Docs >are *really* hard to get. Still looking for the docs for the >Emulex MD-23, possibly the best darned SCSI<->ESDI bridge >ever made: Handles four drives at up to 24MHz data rate. Smokin'. > >8" drives are interesting to me too, but I haven't seen too >many in this neck of the woods. > >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:48:11 -0800 Mike Ford >writes: >>I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the >>screwiest >>ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started >>collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of >>various >>styles now. >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Fri Nov 26 13:32:59 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Beer-bottle caps. Starting back in my first year of college...I have around 300 different caps from all over the world. My favorite is an old "Kiwi" top that isn't really a Kiwi (kind of like the upside-down airplane stamp, right?). Cheers, Aaron On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest > ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started > collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various > styles now. > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 26 13:42:29 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: EMC buys DG for $1.1B Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991126134229.00e89390@pc> This was announced a few weeks ago... - John From west at tseinc.com Fri Nov 26 14:43:10 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: EMC buys DG for $1.1B References: <3.0.5.32.19991126134229.00e89390@pc> Message-ID: <001501bf384e$da970c80$0101a8c0@jay> Interesting.... I bet they try everything that can do to hurt HP/hitachi because of the recent split between HP and EMC a while back.... Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 1:42 PM Subject: EMC buys DG for $1.1B > This was announced a few weeks ago... > > > > - John > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 26 12:28:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:46 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post In-Reply-To: <19991126045039.84669.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Will Jennings" at Nov 25, 99 09:50:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/55dcf8f4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 26 12:32:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: do you still need XT parts? In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at Nov 26, 99 01:33:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/117fdc3d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 26 14:24:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Interesting... PDP-8/m Mem problems In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 25, 99 11:32:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/f7c66414/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 26 14:01:31 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <002501bf3849$08d4e000$4f77e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >>The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >>they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. I had to buy on of those in 1990 as I recommended we take the SMD drives we had and port them to the MacIntosh servers. The interface worked well but had # of head limitations. > >I believe the Adaptec boards are what were bolted onto the Fujitsu >SMD drives I saw with a SCSI controller on them. I want to say that I've >seen some OMTI ones too, but those may have been SASI. > >At one point I had a Pertec Formatted <- SCSI bridge, but it never >interacted well with the hardware I wanted to use it with so it got >traded away. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Nov 26 15:21:12 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Nov 26, 1999 11:32:59 AM Message-ID: <199911262121.OAA10669@calico.litterbox.com> Um... Swords. And Anime Cels. Old PCs seem to follow me home, but they either get taken apart and recombined into useful machines or thrown out, so I wouldn't call them a collection. > > I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest > > ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started > > collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various > > styles now. > > > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 26 15:22:15 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post References: Message-ID: <99112616240308.16085@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >Yes, there are some numbers that were used for 2 or more totally >different chips. The other well-know confusing one is '4040' which is >either a CMOS 12 bit ripple counter (and is very common) or the second >Intel microprocessor (and is much rarer). Ahh, but the 4040 microprocessor is a 24-pin DIP...making it difficult to confuse them "in person"... -Dave McGuire From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 26 15:41:22 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: do you still need XT parts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1 Cassette cable for the IBM-PC computer > I believe this is the same cable as is used with most models of TRS-80 > (1/3/4/CoCo/M100/etc). So you could use one of those (which I assume are > fairly easy to find) if you can't get the official IBM cable (did it exist?) Correct. At least for a while, maybe forever, there was no cable from IBM. The Radio Shack cable worked. Or make one: 5 pin 180 din plus some audio connectors. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 26 15:49:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post Message-ID: <002f01bf3858$1fdb3380$0400c0a8@winbook> The use of the entire part number might avoid confusion as well. Intel has never made a CD4040, have they? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Need help, and I screwed up with my post >On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >>Yes, there are some numbers that were used for 2 or more totally >>different chips. The other well-know confusing one is '4040' which is >>either a CMOS 12 bit ripple counter (and is very common) or the second >>Intel microprocessor (and is much rarer). > > Ahh, but the 4040 microprocessor is a 24-pin DIP...making it difficult to >confuse them "in person"... > > -Dave McGuire From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 26 16:09:54 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <0.cd68b9f.25705f32@aol.com> as for myself, beer cans and antique outboard motors 1960 and earlier. In a message dated 11/26/99 4:21:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, jim@calico.litterbox.com writes: > Um... Swords. And Anime Cels. Old PCs seem to follow me home, but they > either > get taken apart and recombined into useful machines or thrown out, so I > wouldn't > call them a collection. > > > > I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the > screwiest > > > ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started > > > collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various > > > styles now. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 26 16:28:43 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post Message-ID: <001001bf385d$99604380$0400c0a8@winbook> There are other part numbers which should teach us to be specific. There's a Motorola MC4024, which is a dual VCO not unlike the 74S124. The CD4024 is a 7-bit counter. There's a Motorola MC4044 which is a phase-detector/amplifier intended for use with their MC4024 as parts of a PLL. OTOH there's the TI TMS 4044 4kx1 SRAM, and the CD 4044 which (?) is a quad RS flipflop. With NEC numbers, the uPD414 won't do much good if you need a uPC414. You can probably imagine how I learned some of these details. The fact that I still remember them may shed some light as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Need help, and I screwed up with my post >The use of the entire part number might avoid confusion as well. Intel has >never made a CD4040, have they? > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave McGuire >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 2:28 PM >Subject: Re: Need help, and I screwed up with my post > > >>On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >>>Yes, there are some numbers that were used for 2 or more totally >>>different chips. The other well-know confusing one is '4040' which is >>>either a CMOS 12 bit ripple counter (and is very common) or the second >>>Intel microprocessor (and is much rarer). >> >> Ahh, but the 4040 microprocessor is a 24-pin DIP...making it difficult to >>confuse them "in person"... >> >> -Dave McGuire > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 26 16:35:37 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post References: <001001bf385d$99604380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <9911261736050A.16085@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >There are other part numbers which should teach us to be specific. There's >a Motorola MC4024, which is a dual VCO not unlike the 74S124. The CD4024 is >a 7-bit counter. There's a Motorola MC4044 which is a >phase-detector/amplifier intended for use with their MC4024 as parts of a >PLL. OTOH there's the TI TMS 4044 4kx1 SRAM, and the CD 4044 which (?) is a >quad RS flipflop. With NEC numbers, the uPD414 won't do much good if you >need a uPC414. You know...I think there's a song in there somewhere! -Dave McGuire From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 26 16:12:09 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <19991126.164655.191.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:07:54 -0800 Al Kossow writes: >"The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. Docs >are *really* hard to get. Still looking for the docs for the >Emulex MD-23, possibly the best darned SCSI<->ESDI bridge >ever made: Handles four drives at up to 24MHz data rate. Smokin'. >" > >They exist.. I'll check if a friend of mine still has any. I have >a big pile of adapter docs. The only thing on line currently are for >the Xebec 1410 and 1401. Next time I'm at my storage locker, I'll see >if I can find the box that has all this stuff. I know that Tony asked >me for some old OMTI info a LONG time ago. Wow, I would *really* appreciate that! SO far, the only docs I have are for the ACB-4000, ACB-4525, and WD-1002-05' (thanks Richard!). DTC has denied that they ever made bridge boards (even though I have several), and I'm not even going to talk about Emulex . . . Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 26 16:22:31 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <19991126.164655.191.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:15:34 -0500 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com writes: >>The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >>they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. > >I believe the Adaptec boards are what were bolted onto the Fujitsu >SMD drives I saw with a SCSI controller on them. I want to say that >I've seen some OMTI ones too, but those may have been SASI. Seems most of the OMTI bridges I've heard about were of the SASI Variety . . . >At one point I had a Pertec Formatted <- SCSI bridge, but it never >interacted well with the hardware I wanted to use it with so it got >traded away. Funny you mention this; many of these boards were made before the SCSI standard was 'solid'; hence some rather bizarre compatibility problems. Take the Emulex MD-23, for instance. The thing works with MS-DOS, no problems. Formats, works great. I can hang two or more drives from it, no sweat. FreeBSD: Pukes on boot-up. Ditto with OpenBSD. NetBSD: OK. What the @$%&*?!?! Similar story with the ACB-4525; formats and runs great with MS-DOS, no other OS can talk to it (at least the ones I've tried so far). I guess MS-DOS really doesn't care. The SASI ones I never expected to work: They don't support the 'IDENT' command (among other things) Jeff. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 26 16:28:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post In-Reply-To: <99112616240308.16085@vault.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 26, 99 04:22:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 638 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/4140cfaf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 26 16:35:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Need help, and I screwed up with my post In-Reply-To: <002f01bf3858$1fdb3380$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 26, 99 02:49:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991126/a7024936/attachment.ksh From aek at spies.com Fri Nov 26 16:55:44 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <199911262255.OAA08245@spies.com> "DTC has denied that they ever made bridge boards (even though I have several)" I have docs on most of the SCSI OMTI/DTC/SMS boards. I would be interested in info on the larger DTC 14xx series boards, esp the ones that SMS used in the QBus boxes that weren't compatible with DEC disc drivers. From aek at spies.com Fri Nov 26 16:57:44 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <199911262257.OAA08297@spies.com> "The SASI ones I never expected to work: They don't support the 'IDENT' command (among other things) " or disconnect/reconnect sounds like the unix drivers are expecting to be talking to a SCSI Common Command Set board. From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Nov 26 17:08:42 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <199911220640.BAA12413@panix.com> Message-ID: >I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest >ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started >collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various >styles now. Hmm... Maybe it's the HUGE pile of F-key templates(those flimsy plastic things that always disappear) that go on the Apple Extended II ADB keyboard? Or is it the Mac LC power supplies? Nah, only two of those. Need lots more. Wait, I know! It's all those broken radios. Don't ask me why, but for some reason all I end up with is broken radios. Missing batteries, broken parts, just plain in pieces... Hallicrafters S-38, Santec ST-440uP, a pair of marine VHF HT's, a few screwy old crystal controlled radios, a Gonset Communicator... And none of them work right! Another possibility would be the pile of at least 30 expansion cards for the IBM Series/1. Mostly asynch comm cards. Maybe not very screwy, but I absolutely LOVE older IBM equipment. Not sure why. That and Macintosh stuff. /----------------------------------------------------------------\ | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/ rexstout@uswest.net | | KD7BCY list admin for OrHam and ham-mac at QTH.NET | \----------------------------------------------------------------/ From maisnon at yahoo.com Fri Nov 26 17:58:26 1999 From: maisnon at yahoo.com (Edward Beaulieu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: EMC buys DG for $1.1B Message-ID: <19991126235826.6020.rocketmail@web116.yahoomail.com> --- John Foust wrote: > This was announced a few weeks ago... > > > > - John Am I on your mailing list? ===== Edward J Beaulieu maisnon@yahoo.com ICQ# 10888245 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 26 19:11:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <002b01bf3874$9ac61da0$0400c0a8@winbook> CCS is one of the features which distiguishes SCSI from previous channel-based interfaces. There's no reason, though, to expect SASI bridge controllers to work with SCSI host interfaces. What disturbs me is that there are so many devices claiming to be SCSI-compatible when they clearly are not. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >"The SASI ones I never expected to work: They don't support >the 'IDENT' command (among other things) >" > >or disconnect/reconnect > >sounds like the unix drivers are expecting to be talking to a >SCSI Common Command Set board. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 26 20:45:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <19991126.115755.60.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >I collect bridge boards. >I can't help it-- I have a fetish for bridge boards. All makes: >Emulex, DTC, Xebec, WD, Adaptec, etc. All kinds of configurations: >Cpu<->MFM (ala wd-1000), SASI<->MFM, SCSI<->ESDI, SASI<->QIC30, >all kinds. > >The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. Docs >are *really* hard to get. Still looking for the docs for the >Emulex MD-23, possibly the best darned SCSI<->ESDI bridge >ever made: Handles four drives at up to 24MHz data rate. Smokin'. Something I've been wondering about. These boards look to have been used to convert ESDI to SCSI for stuff like Apollo's and Sun's. Could they be used to convert a SCSI drive to work on an ESDI controller? Feel free to ask if I'm out of my Freaking mind, I've never really taken the time to look at them. Actually not sure I want to know, I think I gave the box of such things away. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Nov 26 22:13:58 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <199911220640.BAA12413@panix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991126201358.03b0e3fc@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:48 PM 11/25/1999 -0800, you wrote: >I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest >ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started >collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various >styles now. Well... while I don't necessarily consider it screwy (curious perhaps)... I'm a bowler, and as many could attest hate to see old things hit the scrap. So, out in the garage (in the midst of re-assembly) there is a 1954 AMF Model 82-30 Automatic Pinspotter. Which, curiously enough at a total reported weight (I have to believe the book since I'm not inclined to find a scale big enough to find out for myself) of just under a ton comes in larger (heavier at least) that the single largest CPU in my collection. (the VAX 11/780 at a book weight of 1100 pounds) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From a2k at one.net Fri Nov 26 22:16:04 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Trains. My Grandfather used to do quite a bit of traveling after he retired (delivering automobiles I believe). Whatever he saw a model store, he'd pop in and buy a few cars or an engine or two. He never put them together or told my Grandma about it. When he was dying of cancer he gave them to me. I've gone through some of them.. must be about 15 N-scale engines, 100+ cars, plus all the Lionel stuff I haven't gone through yet. Also lots of buildings and little people. Oh, and to keep this semi-on topic: Every times I typed the word "cars" I automatically typed "card" the first time ;) Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 26 22:24:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <000601bf388f$5ea343a0$0400c0a8@winbook> As I have experienced them, bridge controllers have two types of interfaces. One class is the HOST interface, often SCSI or SASI, and the other is the target interface, e.g. ST506 or SMD, etc. Though it's an easy mistake, it's like asking whether a SCSI channel could drive the Q-bus via an Emulex SCSI adapter. While the data can flow both directions, the relationship is still one of host and slave device. In short, NO! The SCSI <=> ESDI adapter won't let you interface a SCSI drive via an ESDI host interface, unless, of course, the ESDI is the host channel on the bridge adapter. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >>I collect bridge boards. >>I can't help it-- I have a fetish for bridge boards. All makes: >>Emulex, DTC, Xebec, WD, Adaptec, etc. All kinds of configurations: >>Cpu<->MFM (ala wd-1000), SASI<->MFM, SCSI<->ESDI, SASI<->QIC30, >>all kinds. >> >>The SCSI<->SMD configuration still eludes me, however. I know >>they exist (Adaptec ACB-55xx), though I've never seen one. Docs >>are *really* hard to get. Still looking for the docs for the >>Emulex MD-23, possibly the best darned SCSI<->ESDI bridge >>ever made: Handles four drives at up to 24MHz data rate. Smokin'. > >Something I've been wondering about. These boards look to have been used >to convert ESDI to SCSI for stuff like Apollo's and Sun's. Could they be >used to convert a SCSI drive to work on an ESDI controller? > >Feel free to ask if I'm out of my Freaking mind, I've never really taken >the time to look at them. Actually not sure I want to know, I think I gave >the box of such things away. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 26 22:28:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <000d01bf388f$d32ec640$0400c0a8@winbook> OOOHH! N-scale! Nice stuff, even for the apartment dweller. Dick -----Original Message----- From: LordTyran To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >Trains. My Grandfather used to do quite a bit of traveling after he >retired (delivering automobiles I believe). Whatever he saw a model >store, he'd pop in and buy a few cars or an engine or two. He never put >them together or told my Grandma about it. When he was dying of cancer he >gave them to me. I've gone through some of them.. must be about 15 N-scale >engines, 100+ cars, plus all the Lionel stuff I haven't gone through yet. >Also lots of buildings and little people. > >Oh, and to keep this semi-on topic: Every times I typed the word "cars" >I automatically typed "card" the first time ;) > >Kevin > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > >"It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" > >"In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." > >-- BOFH #3 > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 26 23:19:27 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <0.c3847b1e.2570c3df@aol.com> In a message dated 11/26/99 11:23:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, edick@idcomm.com wrote about collecting train stuff, saying: > OOOHH! N-scale! Nice stuff, even for the apartment dweller. actually, Z-scale is better. you can run a coupla loops around on a shelf! of course, miniturization costs money... From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 27 00:26:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <0.c3847b1e.2570c3df@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 11/26/99 11:23:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, >edick@idcomm.com wrote about collecting train stuff, saying: > >> OOOHH! N-scale! Nice stuff, even for the apartment dweller. > >actually, Z-scale is better. you can run a coupla loops around on a shelf! of >course, miniturization costs money... You got it, I've managed to get the basic Z-scale set, but haven't found time to start building my track. I want to put a track in a briefcase :^) I started out with HO and still have a ton of HO stuff, though my folks gave the trainboard away while I was in the Navy :^( (well, I did OK it) And, no I don't like Z-scale for the name, I like it for the amount of scenery you can fit in a small space. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mdalene at home.ctol.net Sat Nov 27 00:39:53 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: do you still need XT parts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > > > I will summarise the pieces I am looking for below in detail: > > [...] > > > 1 Cassette cable for the IBM-PC computer > > I believe this is the same cable as is used with most models of TRS-80 > (1/3/4/CoCo/M100/etc). So you could use one of those (which I assume are > fairly easy to find) if you can't get the official IBM cable (did it exist?) > > -tony > Having both a Model 102 and a Tandy Coco 1,2 and 3 I have two of those cassette cables you mentioned. now I only need to save some money to buy a working cassette recorder. Reguarding this. If I could find the basica.com file for the Xt on a pcdos disk. does this wrapper/patcher allow the support of the cassette unit in addittion to the disks or only the disks? If by default basica.com only patched the rom basic to use disks. how do you port files from cassette tape to disk? A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From mdalene at home.ctol.net Sat Nov 27 00:57:58 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <001c01bf3840$67499080$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My own interest in bridge controllers has been as tools. As you may have > noticed, I have a number of hard/floppy controller bridges, but only a few > different types. My goal is to be able to get hardware running in a hurry > and bridge controllers are only helpful if you don't have to write new > driver software for each application. > > I guess you might say I tend to collect things that are "nearly" ready to > use, though they seldom see any use. Heres a question for anyone reguarding bridge adaptors. is there a Scsi 2 to Floppy bridge board around? I would like to find one that can be used with an XT or 486 system I have here with a scsi host adaptor. I have an Adaptec ACB-4070 or so, but it does not support parity. thus I cannot for the life of me get it to work with my 486 under Linux, Nor do I have any disks with any software for accessing an MFM HD that was attached to it. its a Scsi to MFM hard drive bridge board, I also have a Scsi to MFM bridge board made by Adaptive Data and Energy Systems, it came out of a verisys multiuser 286 system. I have had NO luck even finding documentations at ALL on this one. the ACB-4070 (I might have the wrong numbers but the 70 part is right.) sorta wants to talk to my Adaptec 2825VL host adaptor. but aparently it lacks the Scsi device Identification string. thus when the host adaptor boots, it cannot figure out what the ACB=4070 IS for! Can this be used on a IBM compatible system? of so how? A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From mdalene at home.ctol.net Sat Nov 27 01:00:25 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <0.cd68b9f.25705f32@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > as for myself, beer cans and antique outboard motors 1960 and earlier. > I collect old Records and 8 track tapes I activly listen to both formats. A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 01:03:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <000b01bf38a5$7313cce0$0400c0a8@winbook> Has anybody got a CP/M-80 BIOS driver example for the WD33C93 SCSI controller? I'd surely like to look at one or two. Format utility stuff would be good, too. Any source code will be eagerly looked at. thanx Dick -----Original Message----- From: B'ichela To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 11:39 PM Subject: Re: do you still need XT parts? >On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >> [...] >> >> > I will summarise the pieces I am looking for below in detail: >> >> [...] >> >> > 1 Cassette cable for the IBM-PC computer >> >> I believe this is the same cable as is used with most models of TRS-80 >> (1/3/4/CoCo/M100/etc). So you could use one of those (which I assume are >> fairly easy to find) if you can't get the official IBM cable (did it exist?) >> >> -tony >> > Having both a Model 102 and a Tandy Coco 1,2 and 3 I have two of >those cassette cables you mentioned. now I only need to save some money to >buy a working cassette recorder. > Reguarding this. If I could find the basica.com file for the Xt on >a pcdos disk. does this wrapper/patcher allow the support of the cassette >unit in addittion to the disks or only the disks? If by default basica.com >only patched the rom basic to use disks. how do you port files from >cassette tape to disk? > > A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the >potential to be a dandy. > -- Anonymnous -- >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > B'ichela > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 01:25:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: ACB4070 ... (was Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <001001bf38a8$9f2dbfe0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, first of all the 4070's not an MFM bridge adapter at all, but rather an RLL type. Before we proceed, though, I'd like to ask how the floppy fits in. The ACB4070 doesn't support floppy disks. LINUX doesn't care about the parity, IIRC. It's just the SCSI channel controller that has to be set up. It can either check or ignore parity, your choice, generally. In the case of the 2825, you need to type control-A at the appropriate moment during boot, and it will send you to the controller's BIOS for controller-specific functions. Where the trouble begins is in that modern SCSI drives know their characteristics, but the 4070 doesn't know what kind of drive it's got until it reads it. If it can't read it, it can't ask it for that data. The drive doesn't know either, until the 4070's formatted it. The controller's firmware formatter doesn't know how to TELL the drive/controller what's out there either, so you have to write your own formatter. That's not terribly difficult once you know the bridge controller and host adapter are talking. Unfortunately, I doubt the 4070 is smart enough to help you much. I've never used a bridge controller of any sort with the PC though I can't see any reason it shouldn't work. Now, the ACB40xx series isn't entirely true SCSI, and I have no idea how to make the typical modern host adapter "see" it. If you have specific questions, perhaps I can help you, but it's a big manual and I don't see myself scanning or copying it anytime soon. Dick -----Original Message----- From: B'ichela To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 11:57 PM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >On Fri, 26 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> My own interest in bridge controllers has been as tools. As you may have >> noticed, I have a number of hard/floppy controller bridges, but only a few >> different types. My goal is to be able to get hardware running in a hurry >> and bridge controllers are only helpful if you don't have to write new >> driver software for each application. >> >> I guess you might say I tend to collect things that are "nearly" ready to >> use, though they seldom see any use. > Heres a question for anyone reguarding bridge adaptors. is there >a Scsi 2 to Floppy bridge board around? I would like to find one that can >be used with an XT or 486 system I have here with a scsi host adaptor. I >have an Adaptec ACB-4070 or so, but it does not support parity. thus I >cannot for the life of me get it to work with my 486 under Linux, Nor do I >have any disks with any software for accessing an MFM HD that was attached >to it. its a Scsi to MFM hard drive bridge board, I also have a Scsi to >MFM bridge board made by Adaptive Data and Energy Systems, it >came out of a verisys multiuser 286 >system. I have had NO luck even finding documentations at ALL on this one. >the ACB-4070 (I might have the wrong numbers but the 70 part is right.) >sorta wants to talk to my Adaptec 2825VL host adaptor, but aparently it >lacks the Scsi device Identification string. thus when the host adaptor >boots, it cannot figure out what the ACB=4070 IS for! Can this be used on >a IBM compatible system? of so how? > > A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the >potential to be a dandy. > -- Anonymnous -- >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > B'ichela > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 27 03:30:26 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: Message-ID: <99112704304803.29270@vault.neurotica.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, B'ichela wrote: >On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > >> as for myself, beer cans and antique outboard motors 1960 and earlier. >> > I collect old Records and 8 track tapes I activly listen to both >formats. Ok, *now* I'm scared. ;) -Dave McGuire From west at tseinc.com Sat Nov 27 06:42:47 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: <99112704304803.29270@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <006b01bf38d4$e91bd200$0101a8c0@jay> My other hobby is beer cans (about 5k of them my wife keeps reminding me) and beer can openers (church keys, etc). Those are probably not that screwy, but my last one might be - I also collect the beer can/bottle charts that breweries keep in their QA labs. These are the large charts that show how to read all the "secret" info on the can/bottles (date codes, brewery location, production line, etc.). Jay West From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 27 07:01:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <991127080155.20a000d5@trailing-edge.com> > Heres a question for anyone reguarding bridge adaptors. is there >a Scsi 2 to Floppy bridge board around? I would like to find one that can >be used with an XT or 486 system I have here with a scsi host adaptor. Sure, lots of workstations shipped from the late 80's onwards used SCSI floppy drives, generally a generic 3.5" floppy disk with 34-pin interface through a bridge board. Specifically, look for DEC RX23 (1.4MB) and RX24 (2.8MB) floppy drives with attached SCSI bridge board. They're all over the surplus market. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Sat Nov 27 08:32:13 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <0.c3847b1e.2570c3df@aol.com> Message-ID: Faugh! They're too small. I have to admit I'm tempted by the Royal Arsenal 18 inch gauge prototype. A nice side benefit is the cars are large enough to store cpu's in, too. On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/26/99 11:23:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > edick@idcomm.com wrote about collecting train stuff, saying: > > > OOOHH! N-scale! Nice stuff, even for the apartment dweller. > > actually, Z-scale is better. you can run a coupla loops around on a shelf! of > course, miniturization costs money... > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 27 08:34:39 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE Message-ID: <199911276272741@ix.netcom.com> Wierd Stuff has a PDP 11 in their "AS-IS" room, CPU with 3 disk drives on a pallet, with the backdoor badly dented. They are asking 500 for it. The start switch and one other have been broken. Wierd Stuff is in Sunnyvale, CA (650 area code) I am not connected with Wierd Stuff warehouse in any way, I just buy other old "Weird stuff" there. ron. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 27 07:58:54 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE Message-ID: <000e01bf38df$8acfcd40$5c74e2d1@default> Weird Stuff Warehouse still exists??? I ordered our SMD-SCSI adaptec board there (back in 90).... everyone was laughing at me when I put the order through Supply and Services. PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: rhudson@ix.netcom.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE >Wierd Stuff has a PDP 11 in their "AS-IS" room, CPU with 3 disk drives on a pallet, with the >backdoor badly dented. They are asking 500 for it. The start switch and one other have been >broken. > >Wierd Stuff is in Sunnyvale, CA (650 area code) > >I am not connected with Wierd Stuff warehouse in any way, I just buy other old "Weird stuff" >there. > >ron. > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 27 08:15:14 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: LET'S (old topic)/and PDP-8I code/update Message-ID: <001901bf38e1$d2cb5040$5c74e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 1:16 AM Subject: Re: LET'S (old topic)/and PDP-8I code/update > > >--- John B wrote: >> >> I got the 8I finally to lead a tape properly.. First a quick memory tester: >> >> I am going to put up a bunch of little programs on my webpage so folks can >> test devices without trying to get a paper tape up (will do TTY, and maybe >> basic INST test, and some more core tests) >> > >Thank you, John. That's just the sort of thing I can use right now. My >PDP-8 assembler skills are _very_ rusty and its helpful to see working stuff >that fits on one page to get my mind back in the right frame. I think it's >been 15 years since I wrote anything from scratch. > Your welcome. I think they will help a lot of people out as *most./all* of the 8 has to be running to get MAINDECs fed in.I will have the programs up on the page by Monday morning. I am having to restore PDP-8s *really* fast so I have to be able to find problems quickly. The most important useful <1 page programs I have had to write (over the past day) are: memory test memory test with parity option memory - inhibit driver test (very small) - scope needed memory -X/Y test (very small) - used to find X/Y driver problems with scope. tty software loopback tty continuous output generator (character selected on SR) tty device selection test (scope needed.. checks flags and W103s) high speed paper tape continuous reader high speed paper tape 1/0 test high speed punch test (select character to be punched on SR) high speed paper tape copier (less than 20 bytes or it's free! ;-) ) If you can think of any others that would be needed please tell me as I want to get them all done and tested. >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. >Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > From a2k at one.net Sat Nov 27 09:21:25 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <99112704304803.29270@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, B'ichela wrote: > >On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > >> as for myself, beer cans and antique outboard motors 1960 and earlier. > >> > > I collect old Records and 8 track tapes I activly listen to both > >formats. > > Ok, *now* I'm scared. ;) You've never lived until you're heard 2112 on LP :) I have a modest record collection, too.... all of them older than I am.. :) > > -Dave McGuire > Kevin From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 27 10:01:23 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE Message-ID: <199911277534676334@ix.netcom.com> On 11/27/99 08:58:54 you wrote: > >Weird Stuff Warehouse still exists??? > >I ordered our SMD-SCSI adaptec board there (back in 90).... everyone was >laughing at me when I put the order through Supply and Services. > > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: rhudson@ix.netcom.com >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 9:35 AM >Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE > yup still there, but now they have moved to the other side of 101, back in Moffat Park. > >>Wierd Stuff has a PDP 11 in their "AS-IS" room, CPU with 3 disk drives on a >pallet, with the >>backdoor badly dented. They are asking 500 for it. The start switch and one >other have been >>broken. >> >>Wierd Stuff is in Sunnyvale, CA (650 area code) >> >>I am not connected with Wierd Stuff warehouse in any way, I just buy other >old "Weird stuff" >>there. >> >>ron. >> >> > > From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sat Nov 27 10:26:12 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <99112704304803.29270@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I've got a buddy who collects all things 70's, especially music (thousands of LP's, at least a few hundred 8-tracks). Let me tell you, there's nothing like streaking around San Francisco at 70mph in a white 77 Continental (yes, opera windows) while listening to Dark Side of The Moon on Quad-8... On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, B'ichela wrote: > >On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > >> as for myself, beer cans and antique outboard motors 1960 and earlier. > >> > > I collect old Records and 8 track tapes I activly listen to both > >formats. > > Ok, *now* I'm scared. ;) > > -Dave McGuire > From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 27 10:28:56 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: Message-ID: <384006C8.E92D207B@mainecoon.com> Vacuum tubes. Well, I don't actually collect them; I use them for audio (both creating music as well as reproducing it). Dunno, there's something about a device with a KV or so across it and the failure modes can be *truly* spectacular :-) Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Nov 27 10:39:02 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <384006C8.E92D207B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <13502957164.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [vacuum tube failures can be spectacular] Hrm. In my experience they just went out like bad light bulbs. But then again, all I've ever seen was radio tubes. I DID get to see a modern radio-transmitting tube about 3 weeks ago. It was the size of a lunch box. It wasn't a final tube though - I was told the AM final tubes are about the size of my head. It had a metal jacket so you couldn't see inside it, but it weighed a hefty amount. It went to some unknown FM broadcast transmitter. (One of our customers is a company that owns a few radio stations.) ------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 27 10:51:03 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE In-Reply-To: <199911276272741@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991127085103.0095ccf0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 09:34 27-11-1999 -0500, you wrote: >Wierd Stuff has a PDP 11 in their "AS-IS" room, CPU with 3 disk drives on a >pallet, with the backdoor badly dented. They are asking 500 for it. The >start switch and one other have been >broken. And they're insane if they think they can honestly get $500 for it. Let it sit a while, then get in contact with Jim Schuetz and try striking a deal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 27 10:52:09 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE In-Reply-To: <000e01bf38df$8acfcd40$5c74e2d1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991127085209.0094f3e0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 08:58 27-11-1999 -0500, you wrote: >Weird Stuff Warehouse still exists??? Indeed they do. They're one of my regular annual scrounge-stops. They've long since moved from their original location across from Fly's, but they're still there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 27 10:53:53 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? In-Reply-To: <000b01bf38a5$7313cce0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991127085353.009439c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 00:03 27-11-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Has anybody got a CP/M-80 BIOS driver example for the WD33C93 SCSI >controller? I'd surely like to look at one or two. Format utility stuff >would be good, too. I'm pretty sure I have the databook that covered the 33C93. Would you like me to run off some copies of the datasheets? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 27 10:58:54 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: <13502957164.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <38400DCE.FEABB142@mainecoon.com> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > [vacuum tube failures can be spectacular] > > Hrm. In my experience they just went out like bad light bulbs. > But then again, all I've ever seen was radio tubes. Russian quality control still isn't what it might be; I've had maybe 10% of the 6C33Bs I've used internally short within 3 or 4 hours of initial use. Yeah, I was running them near their limits (in a OTL design) but I *was* still within those limits. It's pretty spectacular when they arc over, even with the relatively low voltages used in an OTL design :-) A buddy brought me his amp last week complaining that it started to sound awful a few hours after he rebiased it to "hot up the sound". Found a nifty hole burned clear through the plate on one of his EL34s :-) > I DID get to see a modern radio-transmitting tube about 3 weeks ago. It was the size of a lunch box. > It wasn't a final tube though - I was told the AM final > tubes are about the size of my head. It had a metal jacket so you couldn't > see inside it, but it weighed a hefty amount. It went to some unknown FM > broadcast transmitter. They tend to be ceramic or metal/ceramic shells and are designed to be remanufactured. Most of the smaller ones are designed to be cooled with forced air, although I believe they still make some which use liquid cooling. Eimac (www.eimac.com) make such stuff; the photo archives can be both amazing and frightening... Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 27 11:13:56 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: DG house numbered part xref/help with what *looks* like a mux... Message-ID: <38401154.AFACF344@mainecoon.com> I was wondering if anyone has a DG house number to generic part cross reference somewhere (if not I suppose I'll start one). Pat of this is prompted by a part (not *yet* suspect) I ran across on a Nova 800 CPU1 board. From the prints it looks like it's a a quad 2-input mux like a 74158, but the pinouts are completely different and it's got wired-or outputs suggesting OC outputs. Select and enable are on 9 and 7 (I may have those switched); 1 = i0a, 2 = i0b, 3 = ya, 4 = yb, 5 = i1b, 6= i1a, 10 = i2a, 11 = i2b, 12 = yc, 13 = yd, 15 = i3a, 14 = i3b Of course, that's just the way it's drawn. It could be somewhat different :-) Does this part sound familiar to anyone? Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 27 11:18:54 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: DG house numbered part xref/help with what *looks* like a mux... Message-ID: <991127121854.20a000f0@trailing-edge.com> >I was wondering if anyone has a DG house number to generic >part cross reference somewhere (if not I suppose I'll start one). Actually, yes, there is such a reference. It's a few hundred pages, and has pinouts for many "custom" DG chips. My copy is out on permanent loan, but if you get me the house number on the chip I'll have the current holder look it up for you. >Pat of this is prompted by a part (not *yet* suspect) I ran >across on a Nova 800 CPU1 board. From the prints it looks >like it's a a quad 2-input mux like a 74158, but the >pinouts are completely different and it's got wired-or >outputs suggesting OC outputs. Select and enable are on >9 and 7 (I may have those switched); 1 = i0a, 2 = i0b, >3 = ya, 4 = yb, 5 = i1b, 6= i1a, 10 = i2a, 11 = i2b, >12 = yc, 13 = yd, 15 = i3a, 14 = i3b > >Of course, that's just the way it's drawn. It could be somewhat >different :-) > >Does this part sound familiar to anyone? Um, what *is* the DG house number on this chip? If you had a time machine you could go back 20 years and buy a bunch of rejected versions of this chip, complete with DG house number, from Poly-Paks, I bet :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From aek at spies.com Sat Nov 27 11:21:30 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:47 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE Message-ID: <199911271721.JAA31017@spies.com> ">Weird Stuff Warehouse still exists??? Indeed they do. They're one of my regular annual scrounge-stops. They've long since moved from their original location across from Fly's, but they're still there. " A bit of history.. Many years ago, Richard Anderson (currently RA Enterprises) met an engineer that was just left Shugart named Chuck Schuetz and started Weird Stuff in Milpitas (next to Atari Games). It was an amazing place, problem is they wanted too much for most of the stuff, and it ended up getting sold for metal scrap after sitting around for months. The city was hassling them for running a retail operation in the area, so they did a HUGE downsizing, moved some stuff to a small warehouse in Sunnyvale, and set up shop at the place on Laurence Expr. Richard got out of the partnership around the time they moved, and started another place called A-Z Electronics on Bascom with Lila Zinter, who mostly deals in office stuff. A-Z moved to Milpitas into the same building that eventually became Surplus Stuff (Curtis Trading, mostly different folks except for Ron, the tech who used to work at Weird Stuff). Richard started a different place, called RA Enterprises, which was on De La Cruz Blvd in Santa Clara until a year ago, when it moved to Walsh (about a mile away). Latest word is Richard has sold the place to some folks working for him, and is going to retire (well, he says he's just going to broker test equipment now..) after doing this for over 25 years. ..oh, almost forgot about the little place Richard used to have in San Jose when he met Chuck... There are lots of little stories like this in the valley.. From jdtoys at progressivetel.com Sat Nov 27 10:49:45 1999 From: jdtoys at progressivetel.com (Allen Wines Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: I have a tashiba 5100 Message-ID: <38400BA9.37AC@progressivetel.com> I need a boot disk for an old laptop computer? Allen Mason From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 11:21:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <003501bf38fb$dc6f6d60$0400c0a8@winbook> The databook's not the problem. I've got a couple of those. It's the fact that I'm looking at a one-of, and would prefer not to generate a whole code set if someone already has done work they' be willing to share. Since I have a plurality of these chips on hand, and since they'll drive the cable directly, requiring very few parts to complete the job, I'd like to use this device for the current task as a prelude to using it in the future. I've never had to write drivers for the thing myself, so I haven't any archived code I can go back to study. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 9:57 AM Subject: Re: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? >At 00:03 27-11-1999 -0700, you wrote: > >>Has anybody got a CP/M-80 BIOS driver example for the WD33C93 SCSI >>controller? I'd surely like to look at one or two. Format utility stuff >>would be good, too. > > I'm pretty sure I have the databook that covered the 33C93. Would you like >me to run off some copies of the datasheets? > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rwaltman at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 27 11:38:45 1999 From: rwaltman at bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: I have a tashiba 5100 In-Reply-To: <38400BA9.37AC@progressivetel.com> References: <38400BA9.37AC@progressivetel.com> Message-ID: <384416f1.1632467@core.iconnet.net> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:49:45 -0500, you wrote: > The Toshiba 5100/5200 were plain DOS/Windows machines. You do not need a special boot disk or operating system, any version of MS-DOS will do. RW. On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:49:45 -0500, you wrote: >I need a boot disk for an old laptop computer? Allen Mason From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 27 13:01:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Wow, great way to get pictures of boards! Message-ID: I was just wanting to make some notes on a picture of one of the Omnibus boards I'm trying to troubleshoot. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but I just carefully placed a Omnibus board on my scanner, and scanned it in. Had to adjust the brightness and contrast of the resulting image, but the results are fantastic! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 27 11:43:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 26, 99 06:45:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 643 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/74480b34/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 27 11:58:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: do you still need XT parts? In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at Nov 27, 99 01:39:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/d21bace0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 27 11:52:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <000d01bf388f$d32ec640$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 26, 99 09:28:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 381 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/d2c36325/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 27 12:28:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: DG house numbered part xref/help with what *looks* like a mux... In-Reply-To: <38401154.AFACF344@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Nov 27, 99 09:13:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/1091ce62/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 27 13:10:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Wow, great way to get pictures of boards! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 27, 99 11:01:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/bde4c818/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Nov 27 13:13:11 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Wow, great way to get pictures of boards! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13502985227.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I've done this before too. The results got deleted but it worked very well. (I did it to UNIBUS cards) Just be careful of UV-erasable PROMs... ------- From aek at spies.com Sat Nov 27 13:23:04 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <199911271923.LAA01574@spies.com> > Something I've been wondering about. These boards look to have been used > to convert ESDI to SCSI for stuff like Apollo's and Sun's. Could they be > used to convert a SCSI drive to work on an ESDI controller? This is actually a subset of a much more interesting general problem, using modern storage devices as substitutes for older ones. This is a serious issue for systems that use 'washing machine' disc drives (pre-SMDs, like Trident or Memorex interfaces) where, unless you were REALLY careful, you'd end up with a big pile of crashed heads and aluminum dust the first time you spun up a disc drive that has been sitting in some warehouse for 20+ years. I have several dozen 80 and 300 meg disc packs that I've had for over 10 years now that I'm scared to put into a drive, for fear of losing everything that's on them... The past month or so, I started calling all the old 'data recovery' places, and even THEY threw out the equipment to fly a head over these old packs.. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 13:43:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <001e01bf390f$baf56400$0400c0a8@winbook> IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a couple of years of when it was developed? The reason these gargantuan drives are no longer around is because it was costly and laborious to maintain them in useable condition, with a routine failure frequency of more than one per week. If you're ever able to recover your data, you can probably store all the software that ever existed for that system on a single 8mm cartridge which will fit in your shirt pocket. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? >> Something I've been wondering about. These boards look to have been used >> to convert ESDI to SCSI for stuff like Apollo's and Sun's. Could they be >> used to convert a SCSI drive to work on an ESDI controller? > > >This is actually a subset of a much more interesting general problem, using >modern storage devices as substitutes for older ones. This is a serious issue >for systems that use 'washing machine' disc drives (pre-SMDs, like Trident or >Memorex interfaces) where, unless you were REALLY careful, you'd end up with >a big pile of crashed heads and aluminum dust the first time you spun up a >disc drive that has been sitting in some warehouse for 20+ years. > >I have several dozen 80 and 300 meg disc packs that I've had for over 10 years >now that I'm scared to put into a drive, for fear of losing everything that's >on them... > >The past month or so, I started calling all the old 'data recovery' places, and >even THEY threw out the equipment to fly a head over these old packs.. > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Nov 27 13:48:54 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <13502991729.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor #3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't afford a new reactor. Sounds like a fun place to work, eh? ^_^ ------- From classiccmp at mrynet.com Sat Nov 27 06:02:39 1999 From: classiccmp at mrynet.com (Classic Computer Mailing List) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <199911272002.MAA03068@mrynet.com> > Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor > #3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't > afford a new reactor. > > Sounds like a fun place to work, eh? ^_^ Yobanoye sovetskoe naslesdtvo. The Ukranian, Byelorussian and Russian governments continue to be engaged in their Soviet legacy -- Absolute lack of concern for the environment, the people, and their neighbours. You can follow this legacy on the RFE/RL (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty) web page and mailing list at http://www.rferl.org. regards, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sat Nov 27 16:44:39 1999 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Grrrrrr (IBM 5288 MANUALS and FDDS available) Message-ID: <199911272244.XAA32304@beta.queen.it> > Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. >" > >Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and >software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated >from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller >and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines >around the world that haven't been parted out. I fully agree Is what I've made with a IBM 5288 Since the machine was already dismantled, I've picked up its manual and the 8'' FDDS. In case anyone has the machine and needs them, please write and I'll be happy to ship them. Ciao Riccardo Romagnoli Riccardo Romagnoli Classic Computer Collector I-47100 Forl? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 27 14:35:11 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: DG house numbered part xref/help with what *looks* like a mux... Message-ID: <991127153511.20a00139@trailing-edge.com> >Pat of this is prompted by a part (not *yet* suspect) I ran >across on a Nova 800 CPU1 board. From the prints it looks >like it's a a quad 2-input mux like a 74158, but the >pinouts are completely different and it's got wired-or >outputs suggesting OC outputs. Select and enable are on >9 and 7 (I may have those switched); 1 = i0a, 2 = i0b, >3 = ya, 4 = yb, 5 = i1b, 6= i1a, 10 = i2a, 11 = i2b, >12 = yc, 13 = yd, 15 = i3a, 14 = i3b > >Of course, that's just the way it's drawn. It could be somewhat >different :-) We're pretty sure you're talking about the 8234, and this is what's said about it in the Nova 800 Technical Manual: Truth table: S0 S1 FN 0 0 !B 1 0 !A 0 1 !B 1 1 1 Pinout: 1 A0 2 B0 3 F0 4 F1 5 B1 6 A1 7 S1 8 Gnd 9 S0 10 A2 11 B2 12 F2 13 F3 14 B3 15 A3 16 Vcc Does this make any sense? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Nov 27 14:42:39 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8 toggle-in diags (was Re: LET'S (old topic)/and PDP-8I code/update) Message-ID: <19991127204239.16806.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > >> I am going to put up a bunch of little programs on my webpage so folks > >> can test devices without trying to get a paper tape up... > > Your welcome. I think they will help a lot of people out as *most./all* of > the 8 has to be running to get MAINDECs fed in.I will have the programs up > on the page by Monday morning. I look forward to it. > I am having to restore PDP-8s *really* fast > so I have to be able to find problems quickly. I'm back in the swing myself... I worked on the -8/e for several hours last night (and gave a tour to friends). I even powered up a couple of -8/L's to see how they were (mis) behaving. One has a bad M220 card (can't load one of the MA bits from the switch register, but incrementing the address does work), neither works perfectly (and a third is sans core :-( ) I'm taking my Tek 465 and a TTL/CMOS IC tester out to the computer barn to further my efforts. I built a cable with a DIP header on one end and a DIP test clip on the other so I can quickly test M-series flip chip (at least the simple ones like the M111, M113, M216, etc.) I have to scope out the complicated ones like the M706/M707 I/O cards, the M220 register cards, etc. > The most important useful <1 page programs I have had to write (over the > past day) are: > tty continuous output generator (character selected on SR) Ah... I just wrote one of those... BTW, your mem test program has a typo... the 7064 instruction (LAS) should be 7604. It threw me for a while until I could get things sqare. I'm still re-learning machine code. I didn't notice that 7064 _couldn't_ be the LAS instruction (wrong group). My TTY banger has an extra feature for the -8/e - it counts characters in the MQ register: 0200 7604 CLA OSR ; Clear AC and OR in switch register 0201 6046 TLS ; Output char and clear transmit flag 0202 6041 TSF ; Skip on TTY flag 0203 5202 JMP 0202 ; Jump back repeat TTY flag test 0204 7521 SWP ; Exchange AC and MQ 0205 7001 IAC ; Increment AC 0206 7521 SWP ; Exchange AC and MQ again 0207 5200 JMP 0200 ; Repeat entire exercise While I'm on the topic of ONMIBUS TTY cards, does the M8650 *require* hardware handshake? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 27 14:42:38 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Wow, great way to get pictures of boards! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991127124238.006fb3a8@mail.sfu.ca> Let's see! Post a sample! Kevin At 11:01 AM 11/27/99 -0800, you wrote: >I was just wanting to make some notes on a picture of one of the Omnibus >boards I'm trying to troubleshoot. I don't know if anyone has tried this, >but I just carefully placed a Omnibus board on my scanner, and scanned it >in. Had to adjust the brightness and contrast of the resulting image, but >the results are fantastic! > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 27 15:35:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <199911272135.QAA28600@world.std.com> <>Has anybody got a CP/M-80 BIOS driver example for the WD33C93 SCSI <>controller? I'd surely like to look at one or two. Format utility stuff <>would be good, too. The only SCSI drivers I've seen for CPM-80 are for discrete (SASI) and NCR 5380 chips. I've heard the 33C93 is a really buggy chip. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 15:51:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <002701bf3921$9cf6fec0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's just a different outlook, doncha know . . . they're looking at a really cold winter for which they need the power to survive. If they don't survive, it's not going to help them that their grandchildren will have a cleaner planet, since their grandchildren will freeze too. There's this old military addage, that "where you sit determines what you see." It certainly applies here. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Classic Computer Mailing List To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? >> Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor >> #3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't >> afford a new reactor. >> >> Sounds like a fun place to work, eh? ^_^ > >Yobanoye sovetskoe naslesdtvo. > >The Ukranian, Byelorussian and Russian governments continue to be engaged >in their Soviet legacy -- Absolute lack of concern for the environment, >the people, and their neighbours. You can follow this legacy on the >RFE/RL (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty) web page and mailing list >at http://www.rferl.org. > >regards, > -skots >-- >Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com >MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv > (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") > ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 15:55:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <003201bf3922$14a82b60$0400c0a8@winbook> I haven't heard about the bugs, though the device has been pretty much obsolete since WD stopped selling chips and went to making drives instead. If you have drivers for the 5380, I would appreciate a look at them as well. I've never looked at a BIOS using SCSI or SASI, both of which are block-oriented rather than being cyl/hd/sector based. I guess it's time I learned how that works . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 2:39 PM Subject: Re: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? ><>Has anybody got a CP/M-80 BIOS driver example for the WD33C93 SCSI ><>controller? I'd surely like to look at one or two. Format utility stuff ><>would be good, too. > >The only SCSI drivers I've seen for CPM-80 are for discrete (SASI) and >NCR 5380 chips. > >I've heard the 33C93 is a really buggy chip. > >Allison > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Nov 27 16:39:12 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <19991127223912.16874.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > I've heard the 33C93 is a really buggy chip. Early versions have their (well documented) problems. Commodode elected to use the WD33C93 with the autobooting SCSI cards - A2091 and up including the A500 slap-on A590 (either SCSI _or_ XT-IDE drives would work on it owing to Commodore's custom controller chip between the Amiga and the 33C93) and on the motherboard of the Amiga 3000. The wisdom in the Amiga arena is that even though C= shipped rev 02 and rev 04 chips, you need the last version ever produced (rev 08?) to take advantage of proper disconnect/reconnect operations and to have a full 7-device chain. The older chips work OK if you have one or two disk devices, but have problems with four or five disks, a CD-ROM and a tape drive. There is example code for the WD33C93, not for CP/M, but for (Net|Free)BSD on the Amiga. Also, if anyone is looking for a few rev 02 chips, I have a tube of them that I'm keeping as Amiga spares. I could let a couple go, depending on how much over shipping I'm offered. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 27 16:29:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8 toggle-in diags (was Re: LET'S (old topic)/and PDP-8I code/update) In-Reply-To: <19991127204239.16806.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 27, 99 12:42:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 391 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/79dead2d/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Nov 27 19:00:04 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <13502991729.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991127190004.22379f30@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:48 AM 11/27/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor >#3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't >afford a new reactor. > >Sounds like a fun place to work, eh? ^_^ Hmmm. Gives the term "life-long employment" a new meaning doesn't it? :-/ Joe > >------- > From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 27 17:07:08 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? In-Reply-To: <199911272135.QAA28600@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > <>Has anybody got a CP/M-80 BIOS driver example for the WD33C93 SCSI > <>controller? I'd surely like to look at one or two. Format utility stuff > <>would be good, too. > > The only SCSI drivers I've seen for CPM-80 are for discrete (SASI) and > NCR 5380 chips. > > I've heard the 33C93 is a really buggy chip. It is the chip that the WD7000 series boards were based on, Allison. I don't know whose point that supports :} - don From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 17:28:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <001001bf392f$18f02260$0400c0a8@winbook> It would be interesting to see SOMETHING for the 33C93, but what puzzles me more than anything else is the question of how to cook up a quick and dirty translation from the CP/M drive/track/sector specification to a logical block structure as is used on SCSI/SASI devices. CP/M 2.2 is so much nicer if you have a maximal TPA which won't happen if one's using table lookups and stuff in place of computations to determine which block contains what the OS is in sector ss of track tt on drive x. You see, if this is implemented on a bridge controller which talks SCSI to the system, but whose drives are ST-506 interfaced, there are good ways and bad ways to allocate blocks. It's simple enough to do one layer, but if you have to deal with two, how you do one will have substantial impact on how the other works out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 3:43 PM Subject: Re: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? > > >--- Allison J Parent wrote: >> I've heard the 33C93 is a really buggy chip. > >Early versions have their (well documented) problems. Commodode elected to >use the WD33C93 with the autobooting SCSI cards - A2091 and up including >the A500 slap-on A590 (either SCSI _or_ XT-IDE drives would work on it owing >to Commodore's custom controller chip between the Amiga and the 33C93) and >on the motherboard of the Amiga 3000. > >The wisdom in the Amiga arena is that even though C= shipped rev 02 and >rev 04 chips, you need the last version ever produced (rev 08?) to take >advantage of proper disconnect/reconnect operations and to have a full >7-device chain. The older chips work OK if you have one or two disk >devices, but have problems with four or five disks, a CD-ROM and a tape >drive. > > >There is example code for the WD33C93, not for CP/M, but for (Net|Free)BSD >on the Amiga. > >Also, if anyone is looking for a few rev 02 chips, I have a tube of them >that I'm keeping as Amiga spares. I could let a couple go, depending on >how much over shipping I'm offered. > >-ethan > > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. >Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From a2k at one.net Sat Nov 27 17:29:09 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <13502957164.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [vacuum tube failures can be spectacular] > > I DID get to see a modern radio-transmitting tube about 3 weeks ago. It was the size of a lunch box. It wasn't a final tube though - I was told the AM final > tubes are about the size of my head. It had a metal jacket so you couldn't > see inside it, but it weighed a hefty amount. It went to some unknown FM > broadcast transmitter. Biggest one I've seen was about 2 dm. in diametre and about 4 dm. tall. 100K.W. (Don't get too close :) It actually looked like a small lighthouse.. ribbed metal at the bottom with a glass section at the top. Probably lighed up like one, too. Kevin From a2k at one.net Sat Nov 27 17:34:03 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > OOOHH! N-scale! Nice stuff, even for the apartment dweller. > > Real men (tm) run live steam :-) .. > > I am in the strange position of loving all forms of engineering, and of > having sufficient tools to make a steam engine, but of having no desire > to do so. I'm not sure why -- I certainly admire such models. Oh well, > people know I'm a little eccentric. Actually I'm probably going to build one once I get my foundry built and machine ship finished... whenever that will be (around 3000 A.D. most likely..) the annoying bit is that this neighborhood does not allow outbuildings so I have to just keep everything covered by a tarp in the woods.. bleah. Kevin > > > > > > Dick > > -tony > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Nov 27 14:52:19 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <19991127.173936.76.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 04:30:26 -0500 Dave McGuire writes: >On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, B'ichela wrote: >>On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >> >>> as for myself, beer cans and antique outboard motors 1960 and >earlier. >>> >> I collect old Records and 8 track tapes I activly listen to >both >>formats. > > Ok, *now* I'm scared. ;) Be *very* scared. I do the same thing. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Nov 27 09:48:57 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <19991127.173936.76.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:57:44 -0800 Al Kossow writes: >"The SASI ones I never expected to work: They don't support >the 'IDENT' command (among other things) >" > >or disconnect/reconnect > >sounds like the unix drivers are expecting to be talking to a >SCSI Common Command Set board. But that's what's screwy-- The adaptec docs claim theat the 4525 *is* CCS compliant. MS-DOS seems to agree. BUt not UNIX. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Nov 27 14:56:20 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE Message-ID: <19991127.173936.76.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:58:54 -0500 "John B" writes: >Weird Stuff Warehouse still exists??? > >I ordered our SMD-SCSI adaptec board there (back in 90).... everyone >was >laughing at me when I put the order through Supply and Services. Back then, they were a good supplier. We used to get our ACB-4000's, 4070's, and 4525's from them. While I was living in San Jose a few years back, they started carrying mostly peecee stuff. I got boring to go there after that. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Nov 27 09:47:19 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? Message-ID: <19991127.173936.76.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:55:44 -0800 Al Kossow writes: >"DTC has denied that they ever made bridge boards (even though I >have several)" > >I have docs on most of the SCSI OMTI/DTC/SMS boards. I would be >interested in info on the larger DTC 14xx series boards, esp the >ones that SMS used in the QBus boxes that weren't compatible with >DEC disc drivers. The ones I have are all 510's (I think), 5.25" formfactor. Can't get any info on these (a couple aren't even marked with the model number!). One has a row of blinkenlights (510B). Would be good to get info on these. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Nov 27 17:39:25 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE Message-ID: <19991127.173936.76.4.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:34:39 -0500 (EST) rhudson@ix.netcom.com writes: >Wierd Stuff has a PDP 11 in their "AS-IS" room, CPU with 3 disk drives >on a pallet, with the >backdoor badly dented. They are asking 500 for it. The start switch >and one other have been >broken. *Snort*. SOunds like a ripoff to me, but typical of how stuff is priced in that joint. They put these really unreasonable price tags on stuff, and when they don't sell, instead of lowering the price, they pitch it! I watched a whole pallet load of 8" FDD's for example trashed because no one wanted to pay $25 apiece. But then, theres this stuff that they totally don't have a clue about, that's like, *really* valuable, they sell at give-away prices. Wierd. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 27 17:51:18 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <13502991729.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991127154422.0227f2a0@mcmanis.com> At 11:48 AM 11/27/99 -0800, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor >#3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't >afford a new reactor. The reactor that had the fire was (and is) irretrievable. The new reactor was one that was in process to go on line before the disaster and has never been run. There are several interesting reports about Chernobyl but perhaps the one most sobering is that during its time of operation, _including_ the meltdown, it has generated more power and killed fewer people and done less harm to the environment than the coal fired plants in Michigan. The damage those plants have done include dumping so much sulphur and other chemicals into the air that they have killed vast tracts of forest and made some lakes and streams completely devoid of life. If you add the number of people killed in coal mining accidents and getting black lung disease the numbers are even worse. Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this country would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power, fewer natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than it would be with a fossil fuel powered one. --Chuck From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Nov 27 18:00:12 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991127154422.0227f2a0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <13503037475.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Nukes are safer] True. Nukes are safer and better in the long run that fossil fuel stuff. It's just the unknowns of nukes and the complexity that boggles people. Imagine me in charge of a nuke plant, with my attitdue about stuff. (Namely, if it don't work, fuck with it until it does) I bet that would cause some trouble. (What happens if I open this valve? let's find out... *BOOM* Could be worse. Imagine a microsoftie there. ^_^ (Meltdown imminent? This don't sound good. Reboot it!) Ignore my typoes and incoherency here. ^_^ I'm in a funny mood today. (The russians: "Okay, is #3 ready? Yes? Okay, boot that sucker!" [Image: Windows CE logo] "Where do you want to glow today?") ------- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 18:20:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <003601bf3936$6325c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, the worst damage possible has already occurred. If it happens again, it won't do much additional damage, aside from loss of in-plant life. The surrounding area is already lethally contaminated. A fossil-fuel powered plant would create as much environmental damage over the six or seven years between major incidents, so I don't see this as a major risk to us. Now, if I lived nearby, I might feel differently. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? >[Nukes are safer] > >True. Nukes are safer and better in the long run that fossil fuel stuff. >It's just the unknowns of nukes and the complexity that boggles people. > >Imagine me in charge of a nuke plant, with my attitdue about stuff. >(Namely, if it don't work, fuck with it until it does) >I bet that would cause some trouble. (What happens if I open this valve? >let's find out... *BOOM* > >Could be worse. Imagine a microsoftie there. ^_^ >(Meltdown imminent? This don't sound good. Reboot it!) > >Ignore my typoes and incoherency here. ^_^ I'm in a funny mood today. > >(The russians: "Okay, is #3 ready? Yes? Okay, boot that sucker!" > [Image: Windows CE logo] "Where do you want to glow today?") > >------- From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Nov 27 18:39:46 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? References: <4.2.0.58.19991127154422.0227f2a0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <384079D2.9C6617AF@cornell.edu> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this country > would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power, fewer > natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than it > would be with a fossil fuel powered one. > > --Chuck and, if you consider the possibility of catastrophic climate change from global warming resulting by past and present burning (the blame falling disproportionately on the US), the number of casualties might be in the billions, due to starvation. I know, nobody really knows what _could_ happen, but nobody can deny that the possibility exists either. Well, maybe some people deny it, but by and large they are linked to the oil companies. To keep this on topic, I have been comparing daily electric load profiles from 40, 30 and 20 years ago to the present ones. Starting 40 years ago, profiles became bimodal (one peak at 11:00 AM, another (larger) around 5-6:00PM in winter, or 8:00PM in the summer). So, turning the lights on at home after work (and for preparing dinner) meant the largest load. This second peak slowly evolved to an earlier hour (2:00PM-4:00PM), while the earlier peak grew to a size comparable to that of the second one in winter, and only slightly smaller in the summer. Only two factors at work here: computers and air conditioning. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From classiccmp at mrynet.com Sat Nov 27 10:44:39 1999 From: classiccmp at mrynet.com (Classic Computer Mailing List) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <199911280044.QAA03652@mrynet.com> > At 11:48 AM 11/27/99 -0800, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > >Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor > >#3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't > >afford a new reactor. > > The reactor that had the fire was (and is) irretrievable. The new reactor > was one that was in process to go on line before the disaster and has never > been run. > > There are several interesting reports about Chernobyl but perhaps the one > most sobering is that during its time of operation, _including_ the > meltdown, it has generated more power and killed fewer people and done less > harm to the environment than the coal fired plants in Michigan. The damage > those plants have done include dumping so much sulphur and other chemicals > into the air that they have killed vast tracts of forest and made some > lakes and streams completely devoid of life. If you add the number of > people killed in coal mining accidents and getting black lung disease the > numbers are even worse. > > Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this country > would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power, fewer > natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than it > would be with a fossil fuel powered one. The issue is not one of nuclear power vs fossil fuel (or otherwise). It is one of mismanagement, disregard, spitefulness (towards the IMF and others, in paraphrase, "If you don't pay us to shut it down, we won't."), and the continued use of poor technology and less-than-marginal safeguards. The recommendations and subsequent agreement in decision to shut the plant down was for safety reasons. It was not simply because its sister plant failed that it was shut down--the fundamental design for operation and containment are flawed. It is sad you compare this Soviet-era technology to that of the U.S. or even other modern installations. The number of casualties in Ukraine alone are in the thousands for the first months after the accident there. Well over 150,000 people have now died as a result. This from a single incident. The numbers are staggering. There are still tens of thousands of people suffering and dying from thyroid cancer. There are towns for a hundred miles surrounding the plant that have been evacuated and are now off-limits. The radiation is still there. The radiation is still killing people. The radiation will not go away soon. Let's not confuse a world-wide coal-fueled industry (dare you imply the U.S. of being alone here) to the Chernobyl installation which has proven design flaws. Whether the sister reactor had been brought online or not (which I won't bother going into, since your information is wrong there as well), the fact remains: they are of the same design and the same generation. The reason the reactor is being brought online is political. It is not one of dire necessity. It is purely political, and economic as well. Here again the callousness towards humanity comes into play. The Soviet Legacy prevails. People, if you need to, search the web. Get educated, or at least informed. The world has forgotten the true nature and impact of the Chernobyl accident. These innocent dead and dying people don't deserve to be forgotten and this should not be repeated by arrogance. I believe the simple act of taking just a few minutes to type into a web search engine, "chernobyl dead," will elighten people much more than what they think they know about the issue. The Western press is infamous for its minimal reporting, and then only when the subject is current, topical, and fantastic enough to gain readership. You simply must find out from more than one source and without the Media Fantasy bias. Respectfully, Scott G. Taylor -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 27 18:45:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <199911280045.TAA08416@world.std.com> This is fairly off topic but I just had to share it with a group that would appreciate a nice hack. On my new Sony VAIO laptop the wall paper is a picture of water with the VAIO logo floating above it (reflecting in the water). When I turned it on the first time it was a really cool night scene with stars and everything. When I turned it on this afternoon the scene was filled with virtual sunlight! The picture is synchronized with the clock to show the correct lighting based on the local time. Very clever... --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 27 19:28:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Wow, great way to get pictures of boards! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991127124238.006fb3a8@mail.sfu.ca> References: Message-ID: Oh, since you insist. http://zane.brouhaha.com/healyzh/Omnibus.html Warning, the 3 images on the page total around 264K, or about 1.5 minutes at 28.8. Zane >Let's see! Post a sample! > >Kevin > >At 11:01 AM 11/27/99 -0800, you wrote: >>I was just wanting to make some notes on a picture of one of the Omnibus >>boards I'm trying to troubleshoot. I don't know if anyone has tried this, >>but I just carefully placed a Omnibus board on my scanner, and scanned it >>in. Had to adjust the brightness and contrast of the resulting image, but >>the results are fantastic! >> >> Zane >>| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >>| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >>| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >> >> >> > >========================================================== >Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department >E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 >Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 19:36:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <001101bf3941$04f6bdc0$0400c0a8@winbook> That's no secret, by the way. A few months ago public TV had a long program dealing with the misconceptions about nuclear power generation and how the press distorted all the "facts" surrounding 3-mile island and it's incident back in the '70's. They even stated that the dirt right around the nuclear power plant had the lowest radioactivity of any area within some substantial radius, since that's a coal-bearing area and normal ambient radiation levels are actually quite high. What's really important here, in the U.S. is that you have to get the GOV to keep the industry straight, but not get into the industry's pocket. The same sloppy work and corruption that caused the Chernobyl problem is what scares most of those who follow the truths of the situation. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? >Chuck McManis wrote: >> >> Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this country >> would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power, fewer >> natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than it >> would be with a fossil fuel powered one. >> >> --Chuck > >and, if you consider the possibility of catastrophic climate >change from global warming resulting by past and >present burning (the blame falling disproportionately on the US), >the number of casualties might be in the billions, due to >starvation. I know, nobody really knows what _could_ happen, >but nobody can deny that the possibility exists either. Well, >maybe some people deny it, but by and large they are linked to >the oil companies. > >To keep this on topic, I have been comparing daily electric load >profiles from 40, 30 and 20 years ago to the present ones. >Starting 40 years ago, profiles became bimodal (one peak at >11:00 AM, another (larger) around 5-6:00PM in winter, or 8:00PM >in the summer). So, turning the lights >on at home after work (and for preparing dinner) meant the >largest load. This second peak slowly evolved to an earlier >hour (2:00PM-4:00PM), while the earlier peak grew to a size >comparable to that of the second one in winter, and only slightly >smaller in the summer. Only two factors at work here: computers >and air conditioning. > >-- >Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu >428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department >Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 19:44:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <001a01bf3942$123437a0$0400c0a8@winbook> I agree, fundamentally, with what you say. I just don't see how letting what's essentially becoming a third-world nation after fifty years of being a technological leader, freeze because it displeases US for them to run their flawed reactor, for which they've already paid, is gong to help anyone, especially since they can't just build a replacement with any technology. Surviving to get there is more important than having a pristine "there" to get. It doesn't matter if we're all surely going to die if we're already dead. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? > >Well, what you don't know. Chernobyl is 4 plants, one crashed due to >operator error. It was a hell of a mess that will take a long time to >disappear. In the meantime people are cold and hungry. Maybe it's not >right but, neither is sick people. Right now that country is trying to >make it as something other than communist I think they have enough right >at that. > >Allison > From diplodocus1 at worldnet.att.net Fri Nov 26 19:58:24 1999 From: diplodocus1 at worldnet.att.net (jean somerhausen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: GRiDcase batteries Message-ID: <383F3AC0.5E8B@worldnet.att.net> I don't know if this has been already mentioned on this thread, since I have just discovered this site, but I operate my 1520 from a 12 V battery on my sailboat without any apparent problem. I've used it mainly to get radio weatherfaxes. I just bought a 22 mm female plug from Radio Shack, wired it to the 12 V power supply and stuck it into the jack on the back of the GRiD (next to the battery pack). One trhing that bothers me when receiving faxes is the screen going dark after a fes seconds. Anybody knows how to disable this battery-saving function ? (which I don't need since the 1520 consumes only 1 Ah, which is peanuts for a 100 A deep cycle battery). john From oliv555 at arrl.net Sat Nov 27 20:43:57 1999 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: PDP11 spotted today in Sunnyvale CA for SALE References: <199911271721.JAA31017@spies.com> Message-ID: <384096ED.17965BEC@arrl.net> Al Kossow wrote: > ">Weird Stuff Warehouse still exists??? > > Indeed they do. They're one of my regular annual scrounge-stops. > > They've long since moved from their original location across from Fly's, > but they're still there. > " Also one of my favorite haunts, but as I learned on my last trip out there, most of the DEC stuff they get in never hits the showroom floor. They have a list of locals they call who then get first shot at these. Anything that finds its way onto the floor is what these folks don't want. This I was told by the guys working the back room. They are still a great source for older accessories and other oddball obsolete parts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991127/540e4596/attachment.html From Maddog1331 at aol.com Sat Nov 27 21:12:28 1999 From: Maddog1331 at aol.com (Maddog1331@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: hey, have old computer stuff for sale, have to make some room here Message-ID: <0.52164ea6.2571f79c@aol.com> Hey all, I have a bunch of old comptuer stuff that I need to move to make room here in the apartment...argh....I have some up for auction on EBAY, you can look at those auctions if you wish at: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&user id=maddog1331&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 Here is the other stuff I have here at the house, not yet up for auction. Please let me know if any of you are interested. Here is the stuff that I have, sorry, its in no particular order, and also it is just one item unless otherwise specified. All this stuff is untested as of yet, so if you are interested in anything here, I will test it for you if I can :-) Also any drives listed, except Amdek, are the big 5.25...the Amdeks are a weird size drive, like takes 3 in disks or something. Another thing, these are in order by what box I put them in...lol...it was a quick easy filing system...had to get the stuff sorted as best I could. Box 1 Intellivision II Atari 800 3 Atari 825 4 Unknown Floppy Disk Drives U-SCI Drive Rana Systems 1000 Drive Mirco Stuffer Printer Buffer Amdesk III unit, has no drives in it. 4 Atari 1020 Joystick controller thingy, its a Wico Command Control Tandy Joystick 2 Printer replacement parts, I think for the small Atari printer...these are metal bar looking things Atari 822 Atari 1027 Box 2 Atari 1029 Atari 820 2 Atari 65 XE Atari 800 XL (says 256k Rambo EX on a home made label on it...an upgrade maybe?) Atari 835 2 Big Blue Printers Percom Data Drive Epson Letter Jet Printer Amdek Amdisk III Dual Floppy Atari 1050 Alphacom Printer Atari 825 Atari CX85 Keypad Box 3 Atari 810 Amdek Amdisk III, no drives in it Universal Data Systems Model 212LP Atari 1027 4 Atari 1020 Percom Data Drive Unknown Dual Floppy Atari 800 2 Motherboards, I think...not sure what they go to...one is huge, the other is small. Power Supply, I think....its a board type thingy..dunno Replacement Keyboards: 2 510 ASCII, 6 other Various ones, Atari maybe? Some still in shrinkwrap. Box 4 TRS 80 Disk Video Interface Commodore 128 Radio Shack TRS 80 Color Computer 2 Atari Portfolio Boxed Smart Parallell Interface Model HPC-101. Box is rough, but all looks to be there Casadapter - Casette interface for all Atari computers (or so it says) De Re Atari Anno Domini MCMLXXXI: A Guide to effective programming for Atari 400-800 computers Boxed Star Raiders w/touchpad, for Atari 2600 Madness & the Minotaur TRS-80 Casette 2 Atari joystick sketchpad casette programs, casette only 16k Ram Board, Atari? not sure Parallell Printer Cable for Atari 850 Boxed, but box is rough Boxed Rampage (rough) 3.5 disk 2 Ribbons for Diablo Hytype II Daisywheel Printer TI 99 Speech Synthesizer NCR Keyboard Apricot Keyboard (looks like its remote controlled even, has a place for batteries) ApricotF2 Dual Disk drive, this is the system unit maybe? I am not sure Riteman LQ Printer CypherBowl Atari 16K casette game in Box, looks to be completel Book: Writing in the Computer age, 1983 Plotter Pens, Injector ink, various 24 Unknown casettes Spectra Strip Ribbon Cable (small box, but heavy as heck! Did they make these out of lead or something?! lol) Atari Personal Financial Management System Manual ( its Heavy also) 20+ Casette tapes, Some from Magatari Magazine, dunno about the others tho, but there are programs on one side of them according to the labels...they say Issue 44 or whatever number on the other side..I am thinking they are maybe all Magatari Magazine issues on casette, maybe they just got fancy with the labels in the later years..I think that there are Magatari casettes 1-12 in here, plus the others. Book-Executive Computing Loose stuff Boxed Riteman LQ Printer, looks new Boxed Alphacom 81 80 Column Printer, Also looks good. I also have various monitors, but dont have them stored here though...as soon as I can get to where they are I will get the info on them...I think 2 are Tandy monitors. Also, I have 2 fax machines, and a really really HUGE dot matrix printer stored with the monitors...I will go through and catalog that stuff as soon as I can. Mark From foxnhare at jps.net Sat Nov 27 21:43:20 1999 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: <199911260802.AAA12445@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3840A4D3.9B7CB75A@jps.net> > Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:48:11 -0800 > From: Mike Ford > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > I am just wondering what some of us collect that we consider the screwiest > ourselves. For example, for reasons I can't fathom I have started > collecting Apple logo AC power cords, and have a couple dozen of various > styles now. I never think of my collections screwey, but other (mundane souls) may have problems with that. Here are my top must-grabs: * Commodore stuff (Micros, Monitors, Literature, am kinda looking for a C= filing cabinet now.) * Wierd Movies (Plan 9 from Outer Space, Dr. Caligari, stuff by Troma and other videos of 'unique' quality.) mainstream is getting too gross and violent. * Computer related books and movies (like reading good computer history and tales in fiction; though nowadays it is hard to find 'good' stuff in all the crud being made.) * BASIC program/programming books, mainly 8-Bit BASIC stuff (I was surprised to find a single player chess game in BASIC in one). -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 baud Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 27 22:35:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:48 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <199911280435.XAA26037@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3840B83D.DF952E0B@creative-net.net> They aren't a threat of nuclear war anymore than they were before and they should have the "gist" of safety with reactors down now so they'd be about as much a problem or risk as our reactors or missiles here (ignoring 3 Mile Island of course). Richard Erlacher wrote: > I agree, fundamentally, with what you say. I just don't see how letting > what's essentially becoming a third-world nation after fifty years of being > a technological leader, freeze because it displeases US for them to run > their flawed reactor, for which they've already paid, is gong to help > anyone, especially since they can't just build a replacement with any > technology. > > Surviving to get there is more important than having a pristine "there" to > get. It doesn't matter if we're all surely going to die if we're already > dead. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Allison J Parent > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? > > > reall > > > > > > >Well, what you don't know. Chernobyl is 4 plants, one crashed due to > >operator error. It was a hell of a mess that will take a long time to > >disappear. In the meantime people are cold and hungry. Maybe it's not > >right but, neither is sick people. Right now that country is trying to > >make it as something other than communist I think they have enough right > >at that. > > > >Allison > > From rhblake at creative-net.net Sat Nov 27 23:09:29 1999 From: rhblake at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: GRiDcase batteries References: <383F3AC0.5E8B@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3840B908.383A7E22@creative-net.net> Tandy has most of the GRiD case setup programs on their support site, maybe the disk run setup will allow you to alter power functions?? jean somerhausen wrote: > I don't know if this has been already mentioned on this thread, since I > have just discovered this site, but I operate my 1520 from a 12 V > battery > on my sailboat without any apparent problem. I've used it mainly to get > radio weatherfaxes. I just bought a 22 mm female plug from Radio Shack, > wired it to the 12 V power supply and stuck it into the jack on the back > of the GRiD (next to the battery pack). > One trhing that bothers me when receiving faxes is the screen going dark > after a fes seconds. Anybody knows how to disable this battery-saving > function ? (which I don't need since the 1520 consumes only 1 Ah, which > is peanuts for a 100 A deep cycle battery). > john From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 27 23:37:56 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <000c01bf3962$d1fc14c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, that part of the task is quite clear. However, if you have an ACB4070 with, say, a 60 MB drive attached to its other side with some very specific number of cylinders, heads, and sectors, there's yet another task to handle. It would really be slick to figure out some combination of partitioning, simple arithmetic, and some form of sleight of hand, to map the sector number and track number you get from the BDOS into the physical drive layout directly, then derive a parameter for the benefit of the SCSI side of the controller to munch while fetching the appropriate block. The DR-supplied code (DEBLOCK.ASM) will handle the selection of the right 128-byte block easily enough. Barry Watzman was kind enough to root through his BDOS listings to assure me that while the sample BIOS's in every case use only a byte for the sector number and track number, those are developed to 16-bits and passed as such in and from the BDOS and to the BIOS. This means one has to make no concessions to CP/M about contiguous block numbering. It gets ugly, though, if you want to fit those nice, neat numbers into a scheme supporting 7 heads, 1117 cylinders, and 26 sectors of 512 bytes into it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? > > >This is real easy, first remember you going to be limited to 8mb unless you >used something like P2DOS or ZRdos. > >With that said and done... > >This means there will be 65536 sectors to a logical disk (CP/M-80 V2). > > SPT set that to some handy number like 64, that means tracks will be > expressed as 64 sector chunks. > > That means there has to be 1024 tracks. This will be the bios passed > numbers for track and sector. > > Of course thats logical sectors (128bytes) this will have to be grouped > 2 or 4 per physical sector (256 or 512bytes). Deblocking will be done > locally on the host and all reads and writes will be at the disk physical > level. > > Offset (reserved tracks) is sized as logical tracks (what ever sector > amount has been set up) > > of course there is more work but those are the clues. > >By using binary sizes for sectors, them math to concatenate tracks and >sectors into "blocks" is a matter of a few right or left shifts. > > >This is hard to follow but the bios does not have to be large and the real >space grabber is the ALLOC vector. If the system has banking even a 4k or >16k bank in low memory can easily swallow the various host buffers and >Allocation storage which can be large. > >Allison > From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Nov 27 23:46:08 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <199911280044.QAA03652@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991128004608.00ee4760@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 04:44 PM 11/27/99 +0000, Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor wrote: >It is sad you compare this Soviet-era technology to that of the U.S. or >even other modern installations. The number of casualties in Ukraine >alone are in the thousands for the first months after the accident there. >Well over 150,000 people have now died as a result. This from a single >incident. The numbers are staggering. There are still tens of thousands >of people suffering and dying from thyroid cancer. I would like to know the source of your numbers. According to a very complete report in the November 1996 issue of IEEE Spectrum, which relied heavily in the data issued by the International Atomic Energy Agency, the World Health Organization, and the European Community (which have all been sponsoring periodic conferences just for the purpose of getting hard numbers on this subject), you are off by almost two orders of magnitude when you say "150,000 people". To quote from the report: "The incidence of thyroid cancer has risen far more than expected among infants and even children still in the womb who were in the most contaminated zones right after the accident. " "There is as yet no significant rise in leukemia among the inhabitants of those same zones or among the emergency workers and evacuees hit by the highest initial doses of radiation. " "Perhaps most widespread are psychosomatic illnesses--even in not-too- contaminated areas, there has been a large upswing in stress-related physical ailments, notably stomach and autoimmune disorders. In fact, morbidity and mortality due to such disorders may well in the end exceed sicknesses and deaths caused by radiation. " From a2k at one.net Sat Nov 27 23:51:01 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <3840A4D3.9B7CB75A@jps.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Larry Anderson wrote: [message ;)] Hmm... I'm thinking actually this should be 00000011 00001111 00001101 00001101 00001111 0000100 00001111 0010010 00000101 if you want to spell Commodore.. :) Kevin > > -- > 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 > Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 baud > Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html > 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 > From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Nov 28 00:25:26 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19991128004608.00ee4760@postoffice3.mail.cornell. edu> References: <199911280044.QAA03652@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991128012526.00784aa4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> I know, bad form to reply to my own post, but I kept on reading the report and found more specific stuff: At 12:46 AM 11/28/99 -0500, I wrote: >>From the numbers quoted, a little over 10000 cases of thyroid cancer >(which has a 10% mortality rate), mostly in children, can be blamed on >Chernobyl. The exact figure until 1996 was actually 800 people in the three most exposed countries. Projections of excess cancers resulting in death over the lifetime of all those exposed have been revised downwards continuously. They are currently at about 7000, but the lack of incidence of leukemia (compared to what they expected) is making people to further downgrade the expected death toll. Of course, many people venture figures; Greenpeace estimates that the death toll will eventually be 30000, but most cancer epidemiologists disagree, according to the report. From jcountry at seidata.com Sun Nov 28 00:33:25 1999 From: jcountry at seidata.com (Jack Countryman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Dayna File Message-ID: <3840CCB1.13B2BC66@seidata.com> Did you ever find one/data or manual/ or better yet the software to make them work? I've got two of them here (one 3.5/5.25 the other dsdd 5.25/dshd 5.25) but only one power supply and no software. They show on the scsi bus to scsi probe, but won't mount a disk to the desktop...I suppose I need software for that? I find a site on the dayna ftp that has versions of the driver...but they are password protected, so they are of no use to me, and their tech support hasn't answered. All ideas/help appreciated! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Home | Collection > > > > Software | Mailing Lists > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] > > Re: Dayna File II > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > * Subject: Re: Dayna File II > * From: jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com > * Date: Thu, 25 Mar 99 17:20:57 +0000 > * Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > * Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 
> I found a couple of these surplus. They're external 5 1/4" floppy drives
> and appear to have a SCSI connector.  Does anyone know what system they're
> for?  Are they SCSI? What voltage and polarity is the external power
> supply?  Any details appreciated.
>
> > They are SCSI and with the appropriate software would allow one to read > PC-format disks on a Mac. Not sure about the adapter, but I *think* one > can still find the software at: > > ftp://ftp.dayna.com/Pub/Macintosh/DaynaFile/ > > A couple of notes: 1) They've been discontinued for quite a while, so I > don't know how well it will work with newer OS releases. 2) Apparently, > they equipped them with different types of drives as I've seen ones with > 360K, 1.2MB, and even 1.44MB floppy drives. > > I have to confess that I wouldn't mind finding a cheap one to play > with. Unfortunately, the ones I've seen always seem to be out of my > range. > > <<>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * Prev by Date: Re: Floppy drive Jumper question > * Next by Date: Re: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) > * Prev by thread: Re: Dayna File II > * Next by thread: Dayna File II > * Index(es): > o Date > o Thread > > > > > Created by: Kevan Heydon on Thursday, 25-Mar-1999 09:36:00 PST From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 27 23:57:49 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <199911262121.OAA10669@calico.litterbox.com> References: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Nov 26, 1999 11:32:59 AM Message-ID: >Um... Swords. And Anime Cels. Old PCs seem to follow me home, but they >either Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese sword for $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box full of promo batman cells, I bought one, then kicked myself in the rear for not buying the whole box. From jlewczyk at his.com Sun Nov 28 01:12:41 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: The Computerist's Video Plus board Message-ID: <003901bf396f$f572d580$013da8c0@Corellian> I just dug out an old single board computer which was made by a company called "The Computerist" which is called a "Video Plus", probably around 1981-82. Its a 6502 based board with the same form factor as the Kim-1 and I believe the same pin outs on the two 44 pin edge connectors. It has some 6522 vias and some video signal generating chip, a composite video output, sockets for eprom, four 2114 ram, etc. Does anybody have documentation on this board? I lost mine years ago when I sold off my old KIM-1 stuff :-( and would like to resurrect this board. Its in very good shape, but is missing some socketed chips. Need docs though to get anywhere. Any leads would be appreciated, even a contact to someone who ran the company or worked there could help. They had a lot of neat products! The COMPUTERIST, INc. P.O. Box 3, S. Chelmsford, MA 01824 Thanks! John Lewczyk jlewczyk@his.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Nov 28 01:15:29 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 27, 1999 09:57:49 PM Message-ID: <199911280715.AAA17637@calico.litterbox.com> Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if they were correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. > Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese sword for > $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box > full of promo batman cells, I bought one, then kicked myself in the rear > for not buying the whole box. > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Nov 28 02:58:56 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <199911280715.AAA17637@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Nov 28, 99 00:15:29 am Message-ID: <199911280858.AAA31282@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To > the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if they were > correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. Wow, the VET can tell you if the steel was the color of the sunset when it was forged? Or if the sword will cut a handkerchief as it falls onto the edge of the blade? Medical technology must be better than I thought. :) -- Derek From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Nov 28 05:52:08 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991127154422.0227f2a0@mcmanis.com> References: <13502991729.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991128065208.007ad100@mail.wincom.net> At 03:51 PM 11/27/1999 -0800, you wrote: >At 11:48 AM 11/27/99 -0800, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >>Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor >>#3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't >>afford a new reactor. > >The reactor that had the fire was (and is) irretrievable. The new reactor >was one that was in process to go on line before the disaster and has never >been run. > >There are several interesting reports about Chernobyl but perhaps the one >most sobering is that during its time of operation, _including_ the >meltdown, it has generated more power and killed fewer people and done less >harm to the environment than the coal fired plants in Michigan. The damage >those plants have done include dumping so much sulphur and other chemicals >into the air that they have killed vast tracts of forest and made some >lakes and streams completely devoid of life. If you add the number of >people killed in coal mining accidents and getting black lung disease the >numbers are even worse. > >Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this country >would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power, fewer >natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than it >would be with a fossil fuel powered one. > >--Chuck Here in Windsor, Ontario, we have some of the worst air in Canada. Most of it comes from Michigan and Ohio on the westerly winds. To add to our fun we have Fermi One, which almost went up, and Fermi Two, which breaks down every month or so, just across the south end of the Detroit River. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From hofer at wgh.ch Sun Nov 28 18:16:50 1999 From: hofer at wgh.ch (Jean-Pierre Hofer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Frame buffer PMAGB-BA for DECstation Message-ID: <199911281720.SAA02744@dns.cyberlink.ch> Hello, I am looking for an inexpensive framebuffer PMAGB-BA for a Personal DECstation 5000/20. Some advices about good sources of DEC surplus ? Regards. J.-P. Hofer From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 28 11:40:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <199911281740.MAA29467@world.std.com> ). Also while some of the CPM clones will address a disk this large the granularity is really bad as they want to use 32k allocation blocks. It can be done but you going to have to create a "different" bios that will allow ony of the 16 logical drive to be assigned to any physical drive (or a partition on one). I've done this enough times to know what the book says, what people have done (not all good either!) and what the BDOS really does (read the code!). What the BDOS sends back is reflective of the Disk Parameter Block and those numbers do not have to have any relationship to the physical device other than some consistancy on total device size. Keep in mind the BDOS has no concept of heads (you have to deal with that in the bios) and could care less about the geometry of the disk as that is something the bios writer has to decide. There are few hard rules for the CPM bios and a great deal of flexibility if you care to take advantage. Allison From stan at netcom.com Sun Nov 28 11:41:06 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument References: <199911281720.SAA02744@dns.cyberlink.ch> Message-ID: <38416932.911178C5@netcom.com> Hello all, I have just acquired a PC-based instrument. It's a Model DTA 8850 Digital Timing Analyzer, made in 1989 by a company called International Test Instruments, Inc. in Irvine, CA. Unfortunately, they seem to be out of business. The machine is based on a PC architecture, with the specialized signal conditioning circuitry on a backplane. It has some sort of non-volatile electronic disk as the C drive. I was able to determine that the operating system is DOS 3.3, but there is something munged about it, because it won't run the application software for the instrument. I can boot the instrument from a floppy, but the only version of DOS I have is 6.22, and the instrument gives "Incorrect DOS Version" error messages when I run the application software (but it does run). I would like to get a copy of DOS 3.3 to restore this machine to its original state. Also, does anyone know anything about International Test Instruments, or (fingers crossed) have a manual or other information about this machine? Thanks in advance, Stan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 28 12:51:59 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument In-Reply-To: <38416932.911178C5@netcom.com> Message-ID: If the ONLY problems are "Incorrect DOS Version" messages, then you can still use 6.22 . That's what SETVER is for. Somewhere in the code that you are running is something that closely resembles: MOV AH, 30h INT 21h CMP AX, ... That inquires of the OS what version it is, and then balks if it isn't what was expected. SETVER, which started with version 5.00 (?) lets the OS lie about its age for just that situation. SETVER contains a database that is configurable via the command line, so that the OS can keep its lies straight. You'll need to install SETVER and add entry to its database. From aek at spies.com Sun Nov 28 12:54:56 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <199911281854.KAA08543@spies.com> "IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a couple of years of when it was developed? " It makes perfect sense, and as soon as I can get a mechanism running to read the packs, the data will be archived. If it was simple to get this done, I would have finished the project years ago. Archiving data in a form that is "useable over time" is another matter entirely, and I'm sure it must have been the subject of many messages here in the past. From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 28 13:24:28 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <199911281924.OAA08537@world.std.com> >IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized >disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to >retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't >it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we >hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's >intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a >couple of years of when it was developed? Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives. They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is a very large paper-weight. I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have. We have, however, been getting all the data off the tapes so as not to lose it. It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine, and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks... (anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 28 13:42:16 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? Message-ID: <000601bf39d8$c5b732a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, the ACB4070 is a SCSI<=>RLL bridge. It operates in a way which translates what is on the disk to cyl/hd/sector. However, it talks to the host in SCSI. In any case, I've seen implementations (back when they were all over the place) which worked very well, and I've seen others which worked very poorly. Insofar as the bridge controllers were the same, I have to assume that it was because of the BIOS code. I should have informed myself about that back then, but it didn't seem important enough. Take a look at additional comments below, plz. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 10:45 AM Subject: Re: CP/M-80 drivers for WD33C93 ??? > >Ok thats a EDSI controller. The key question is do you talk to the bridge >board in blocks or CHS? Most SCSI disks (like my RZ22s are blocks) and >the drive logic does things to make that into CHS for it's internal use. Many ESDI drives work on a logical block basis just like the SCSI's. They have in many cases, in fact, dedicated processors on the drive logic to handle the individual tasks. I've got some old Miniscribe 9380's on which I can put either an ESDI or a SCSI logic board. If you compare the two boards, they seem to have most of the same logic. Only the host interface is different. There's a dedicated MPU to run the head carriage, one to manage the raw data flow into the drive-resident buffer memory, one to handle correction/detection of errors, (in the case of the SCSI only) and one to shuffle the data between the host and drive. The thing that makes SCSI outperform ESDI in most cases is that the SCSI leaves the host adapter alone except when it's transferring corrected data. The ESDI relies on the controller to handle all the correction, etc. In an environment, e.g. DEC's MSCP, where there are enough smarts to utilize command queueing and overlapped seeks, etc, SCSI outperforms the fastest ESDI by quite a little bit. I participated in a MicroVax implementation using two ESDI drives from Maxtor for a JPL-run Army/Air Force project. When Maxtor released their SCSI drive equivalent to the very famous 4380E, which they called the 3380, we took out the Emulex ESDI controller and replaced it with someone's SCSI adapter, half the size of the ESDI one, perhaps it was from Emulex as well, and put in two of the 3380's where the 4380's had been, and got WAY better () performance. The adapter cost less than half what the ESDI one cost, the 3380 drives were $1k lower in price, at $3375, while the 4380's cost, (get this!) $4380. It wasn't a tough choice. The JPL guys didn't like the report I had written about the performance gain which went along with the price cut. I was fired (briefly) from the project, and the switch to SCSI was made a few months later. > >For current SCSI and IDE I just map SPT at something binary and that set >tracks to a number I can easily work with. Since TRACK and SECTOR are both >16bit values (or can be) this makes it pretty easy. > >Watch out for track (one head) and cylinder (n many heads). It seems that if the BDOS is willing to call out both the track and the sector numbers in a range from 0..FFFFH, that means you only need to specify one sector per track if all you want is a logical block (physical sector) number. You then right-shift to scale for the physical sector size and then let the deblocking code wade through undoing that. FFFFH sectors is the 8MB max allowable capacity, is it not? The bridge controller translates from logical block numbers to cyl/hd/sec in some way they don't choose to tell us mere mortals. OTOH, using the BDOS to do more of the work, sorta, you can map tracks into logical blocks, and use the sector number to point into the logical block at the appropriate 128-byte portion. What I'd like to know is what works best. It's particularly important that this be small, since it's for CP/M 2.2. > >For something like the old Xybec bridge you working with raw CHS so >something like 16 physical (64 logical) sectors per track (what it >formatted to on a ST225) and 4 heads can be sent to the bdos as 256spt >(4h*16sectors*4logicalsectors per physcial block). That means there >will be 615 tracks. Very straightforward. This gets a bit messy if >there are say 17spt (512byte sectors) but then if there are 4 heads that >makes 68 physical sectors times 4 (128 byte logical sectors) or 272 sectors >per track... awkward but manageable (note the sector value is 9bits so the >bios will have to capture the full 16 bits passed in DE from the BDOS). > >Myself unless I'm working with floppies I give the bios table (disk >prarmeter block) numbers like 256spt and say 2047 blocks (8mb logical disk >with 4k allocation size). That means the concatination of TRACK and SECTOR >passed to the bios will be a pure binary number of the logical sector >(0-65535) the BDOS wants. I can then in the BIOS translate that to what >ever mapping I need. Generally for SCSI disks I add some number of blocks >to that to get the track offest for partitioning or system tracks. What do you find this does to your directory allocation scheme? I've never quite figured out how to optimize the block size so you don't either run out of directory entries or disk space far too soon. > >You can do better than DEBLOCK. If you have space caching larger that >physical blocks give a real performance boost. > > >Barry's examples are practice VS what the BDOS actually does. The BDOS >passes 16 bit values for both track and sector. If the SPT happens to be >set to less that 257 then you can be assured the BIOS will recieve a 16 bit >sector with the upper byte of 00. Why not take advantage of the BDOS doing >this work? For all the BDOS cares SPT can be 1 or 65535! all it does is >crank out a different "track" value for those cases. > >Hint in the past I've use 4 spt! that means the sector number is an index >into a physical block for a 512byte sector (for deblocking). Track has the >relative block (0-16384) for me to crack into physical head, sector, track. >Or in the case of most SCSI disks the actual block I want from the drive. Yes, this is what I meant, above. >The one thing that is hard limit is there will be 65536 sectors MAXIMUM to a >logical disk under cpm 2.2. If you have P2DOS, ZRdos, Novados, CPM3 those >all increase by a minimum of 4 to 32mb and can be as large as 1gb for >logical disks (if you can live with a allocation size of 32k and have the >alloc table space). > > >It will not fit as that is a 1Gb disk! Reality is the BDOS (V2.2) can >only deal with a 8mb partition of that (some 128 partitions would be >needed and CPM is never going to do all of them ). Also >while some of the CPM clones will address a disk this large the granularity >is really bad as they want to use 32k allocation blocks. It can be done >but you going to have to create a "different" bios that will allow ony of >the 16 logical drive to be assigned to any physical drive (or a partition on >one). Actually, it's a 99.25 MB disk. It's a miniscribe 3085 used with RLL. Since I have one of these lying about, and since the 4070 is an RLL bridge, I thought I'd use those numbers. >I've done this enough times to know what the book says, what people have >done (not all good either!) and what the BDOS really does (read the code!). >What the BDOS sends back is reflective of the Disk Parameter Block and those >numbers do not have to have any relationship to the physical device other >than some consistancy on total device size. Keep in mind the BDOS has no >concept of heads (you have to deal with that in the bios) and could care >less about the geometry of the disk as that is something the bios writer has >to decide. > >There are few hard rules for the CPM bios and a great deal of flexibility >if you care to take advantage. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 28 13:44:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument Message-ID: <001101bf39d9$0d37a420$0400c0a8@winbook> In case you can't get the right dos version right away, perhaps you could try loading SETVER. That should work with your later DOS version. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Stan Perkins To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 10:49 AM Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument >Hello all, > >I have just acquired a PC-based instrument. It's a Model DTA 8850 >Digital Timing Analyzer, made in 1989 by a company called International >Test Instruments, Inc. in Irvine, CA. Unfortunately, they seem to be out >of business. > >The machine is based on a PC architecture, with the specialized signal >conditioning circuitry on a backplane. It has some sort of non-volatile >electronic disk as the C drive. I was able to determine that the >operating system is DOS 3.3, but there is something munged about it, >because it won't run the application software for the instrument. I can >boot the instrument from a floppy, but the only version of DOS I have is >6.22, and the instrument gives "Incorrect DOS Version" error messages >when I run the application software (but it does run). > >I would like to get a copy of DOS 3.3 to restore this machine to its >original state. Also, does anyone know anything about International Test >Instruments, or (fingers crossed) have a manual or other information >about this machine? > >Thanks in advance, >Stan From oliv555 at arrl.net Sun Nov 28 13:50:44 1999 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: eMail: Capital offense? Message-ID: <38418794.C97D72D6@arrl.net> Sorry for going a bit off-topic here. I normally have no qualm about including my company email in my postings, it has resulted in some interesting and useful dialogue since the topic *resembles* my work. But a story that aired here in Houston yesterday gave me some pause to think. It told of 3 workers at a midwest company who were terminated for ........ RECEIVING !! ... non-work-related email. As usual with radio news, few details were provided. Was it spam? Was it blatant personal mail? I wonder if anyone else has run across this story. While I don't believe that my own company would be this arbitrary, one has to wonder ..... if your employer Really wanted to get rid of you ....... Nick Oliviero From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 28 13:57:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <001e01bf39da$c0ed63a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Some years back, the GOV switched from 9-track to 8mm, using the Exabyte 8200 as its standard. This was because you could hold what was formerly stored on a truckload of 9-track tape on a single cartridge which would fit in your pocket. Since the GOV also loved DEC, I'd be very surprised to learn that there's no practical implementation available of the EXB8200 on a DEC machine. These drives are simple SCSI-1 and should work like any other tape drive. There are probably some special hoops, DEC-isms, you have to jump through in order to get it all to work, but I'll bet it's been done. Those 8mm cartridges, BTW, cost less than almost any other medium. There are larger-capacity drives, e.g. Exabyte 8205, 8500, 8500C, 8505, all of which are SCSI-II, which have faster transfer rates and, in the case of th 8505xl, 8505, and 8500C, not to mention the libraries which host one or more of these drives, they support hardware compression as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) > >>IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized >>disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to >>retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't >>it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we >>hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's >>intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a >>couple of years of when it was developed? > >Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the >DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives. >They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a >close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the >drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is >a very large paper-weight. > >I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but >we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have. > >We have, however, been getting all the data off the tapes so as not >to lose it. > >It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent >tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to >have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine, >and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks... > >(anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 28 13:57:06 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media -- wanted a non-three phase RP06 In-Reply-To: <199911281924.OAA08537@world.std.com> from Megan at "Nov 28, 99 02:24:28 pm" Message-ID: <199911281957.OAA00511@pechter.dyndns.org> > Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the > DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives. > They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a > close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the > drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is > a very large paper-weight. > > I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but > we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have. Well, Megan... look no further than your RP06. RP06's are not three phase, although the power wiring is set for three phase. RP06's are internally using two phase 220v motors and the third phase is used to either (my memory is hazy) 1. power the DCL 2. power the motor in a second RP06 Two RP06's were designed to strap together with a daisy chain three phase cable arrangement. Two wires (220) powered the motor and one of the phases (I think) also powered the card cage. If there was a second RP it got the unused phase and the lighter loaded of the two phases used in the first drive. I'm pretty sure phase 3 wasn't used anywhere in the first drive (although it might've gone to the first DCL... anyone have prints?) This means you can get an RP06 working in normal house/apartment wiring if you have 220 for an electric range, clothes dryer or other heavy appliance... > It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent > tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to > have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine, > and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks... > > (anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?) Well, considering the DEC Massbuss patent and that they damn near sued anyone who used it to death... I don't think it will get much interest. I don't know any company out there that would consider it. Perhaps someone will look at it and make an RM05 lookalike adapter that let CDC9766's and newer SMD and E-SMD's sit on a massbus and emulate RM05's or RP07's. Is that Massbus patent expired yet? How long before LAT get freed up and reverse engineered? I wonder if AMP still even makes the connectors since they were a supposedly sole source item. (Some German outfit I can't remember -- Braegan or something got killed on that Massbus one in court when I was in Field Service.) They interfaced Calcomp's to the massbus. I think Emulex got nailed on the 11/70 cache bus as well. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer DEC unfortunately (and this hurt their business a lot in the mid-late 80's) began to think like IBM and try to close up all interfaces except for the Unibus/Qbus. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Nov 28 14:08:22 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) In-Reply-To: <199911281924.OAA08537@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991128120822.067c1a0c@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:24 PM 11/28/1999 -0500, Megan wrote: > >>IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized >>disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to >>retain the value of the media.... > >Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the >DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives. >They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a >close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the >drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is >a very large paper-weight. > >I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but >we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have. Well... one possible (temporary) solution to this particular dilemma comes from the world of machineing (metal cutting, etc) where small shops/hobbiests frequently obtain equipment (mills, lathes, etc.) that is designed for three phase power. Rather than replace the motors (an aggrivating and expensive proposition), there are a number of sources for three phase 'converters' which take single phase power (or perhaps two phase for really heavy load situations) and through (most often) a motor/generator combination output real (or close enough) three phase power for the application. I would not be surprised of some of the larger equipment rental places had such critters available for rental (or sale for the long term applications). Just my two cents worth... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From stan at netcom.com Sun Nov 28 14:13:25 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument References: Message-ID: <38418CE5.833CF72B@netcom.com> Fred, Thanks for the note. I determined it was 3.3 by aborting the AUTOEXEC.BAT file and typing "VER". It said "Microsoft DOS Version 3.3", IIRC. But now it won't boot from the electronic drive, so I'm stuck with using an external floppy (for now). If it helps matters, the COMMAND.COM on the electronic disk shows a size of 25,308 and a creation date of 02-02-88 at 12:00a. Anyway, I could use 6.22 except for one complicating factor. The electronic disk is only 1 MByte and it's filled to within about 5 KB of its capacity. The newer versions of DOS are too big to install and still allow the application software to be on the same drive. Certainly the drive size restrictions of DOS 3.30 will not be a factor :-) "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > If the ONLY problems are "Incorrect DOS Version" messages, then you can > still use 6.22 . That's what SETVER is for. Somewhere in the code that > you are running is something that closely resembles: > MOV AH, 30h > INT 21h > CMP AX, ... > That inquires of the OS what version it is, and then balks if it isn't > what was expected. SETVER, which started with version 5.00 (?) lets the > OS lie about its age for just that situation. SETVER contains a database > that is configurable via the command line, so that the OS can keep its > lies straight. You'll need to install SETVER and add entry to its > database. > > >From where are you getting the information that it is 3.3? > 3.30 and 3.31 are significantly different. Among other things, 3.30 can > not comprehend a drive (lofical or partition) larger than 32 honest > megabytes (it is limited to 65536 sectors per drive). 3.31 can go to 2 > honest gigabytes (if the BIOS can handle it). 3.31 and 2.11 are the > versions of MS-DOS that are HEAVILY customized - besides MODE.COM being > unique, they often have had hardware vendor added support for unique > hardware. Compaq MS-DOS 3.31 is different from Zenith MS-DOS 3.31, etc. > BTW, there is no PC-DOS 3.31, unless you want to count 4.00. > > BTW, there is no such thing as 3.3 !! INTERNALLY the OS version number is > stored as if it were a 2 digit decimal number. Thus, 3.30 INTERNALLY is > 3.1D or three point thirty, and 3.31 INTERNALLY is 3.1E or three point > thirty-one. Thus, if there WERE a three point three, it would actually be > 3.03. > > If you have difficulty configuring SETVER, among us we can probably come > up with 3.30, and haf a dozen varieties of 3.31. > > Good luck, > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sun Nov 28 14:19:21 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: eMail: Capital offense? In-Reply-To: <38418794.C97D72D6@arrl.net> Message-ID: Why would you want to work for someone who really wanted to get rid of you? Being fired from a place like that would be a blessing... On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Nick Oliviero wrote: > Sorry for going a bit off-topic here. I normally have no qualm about > including my company email in my postings, it has resulted in some > interesting and useful dialogue since the topic *resembles* my work. But > a story that aired here in Houston yesterday gave me some pause to > think. It told of 3 workers at a midwest company who were terminated for > ........ RECEIVING !! ... non-work-related email. > > As usual with radio news, few details were provided. Was it spam? Was it > blatant personal mail? I wonder if anyone else has run across this > story. While I don't believe that my own company would be this > arbitrary, one has to wonder ..... if your employer Really wanted to get > rid of you ....... > > Nick Oliviero > From stanp at storm.ca Sun Nov 28 14:25:16 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: DEC Qbus Card Message-ID: <38418FAB.44921CC4@storm.ca> I found an Emulex CU04...... Qbus card today. Being the curious type, I picked it up. It's got a 34 pin header on the handle edge, and about 15 feet of shielded ribbon cable with it...... Now for the question of the day: What is it? Any thoughts? OT: Emulex (and their web site) seems to ignore everything that's not current product....... Stan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Nov 28 14:26:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media -- wanted a non-three phase RP06 Message-ID: <991128152616.202000c3@trailing-edge.com> >> It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent >> tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to >> have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine, >> and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks... >> >> (anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?) >Well, considering the DEC Massbuss patent and that they damn near sued >anyone who used it to death... I don't think it will get much interest. >I don't know any company out there that would consider it. Luckily, a company called SETASI did consider, and has been selling Massbus-compatible interfaces to "modern" drives for the past two decades. DEC, as a matter of fact, has been selling several SETASI-produced units for the past several years. The SETASI Shelby has been listed as the DEC RM06 and RP12 in the DEC Systems and Options catalog for some time now. See http://www.setasi.com/DECPP.html for details. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ndiablo at diablonet.net Sun Nov 28 15:30:13 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: DEC Qbus Card Message-ID: <19991128213013.17500.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Hi! I'm not sure offhand what the card is, but you might want to check the Visual Field Guide at http://vaxarchive.org - it has a lot of information useful in regard to identifying and configuring a lot of QBus cards. -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 28 15:08:13 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: eMail: Capital offense? References: Message-ID: <99112816092702.03126@vault.neurotica.com> Yeah really...unemployment isn't much of a problem nowadays...at least not in this business. I think nobody in their right mind would work for such a company. I certainly wouldn't. -Dave McGuire On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >Why would you want to work for someone who really wanted to get rid of >you? Being fired from a place like that would be a blessing... > >On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Nick Oliviero wrote: > >> Sorry for going a bit off-topic here. I normally have no qualm about >> including my company email in my postings, it has resulted in some >> interesting and useful dialogue since the topic *resembles* my work. But >> a story that aired here in Houston yesterday gave me some pause to >> think. It told of 3 workers at a midwest company who were terminated for >> ........ RECEIVING !! ... non-work-related email. >> >> As usual with radio news, few details were provided. Was it spam? Was it >> blatant personal mail? I wonder if anyone else has run across this >> story. While I don't believe that my own company would be this >> arbitrary, one has to wonder ..... if your employer Really wanted to get >> rid of you ....... >> >> Nick Oliviero >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 28 15:17:11 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) References: <001e01bf39da$c0ed63a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <99112816193204.03126@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Since the GOV also loved DEC, I'd be very surprised to learn that there's no >practical implementation available of the EXB8200 on a DEC machine. These >drives are simple SCSI-1 and should work like any other tape drive. There >are probably some special hoops, DEC-isms, you have to jump through in order >to get it all to work, but I'll bet it's been done. They do exist...I have a couple of subsystems here which have Exabyte drives in them (unmodified, regular SCSI drives) with bridge boards which go to SDI connectors on the other side. I've never fired them up but I plan to someday. I don't recall who made them but I'll look at them more closely the next time I'm in the warehouse where they're stored. -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 28 15:03:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media -- wanted a non-three phase RP06 In-Reply-To: <991128152616.202000c3@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <991128152616.202000c3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19991128210307.4243.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Luckily, a company called SETASI did consider, and has been selling > Massbus-compatible interfaces to "modern" drives for the past > two decades. > > DEC, as a matter of fact, has been selling several SETASI-produced > units for the past several years. The SETASI Shelby has been listed > as the DEC RM06 and RP12 in the DEC Systems and Options catalog for some > time now. > > See http://www.setasi.com/DECPP.html for details. Unfortunately that web page says nothing about whether they support 18-bit mode, which is critical to making the drives work on a PDP-10. If they're focusing on the PDP-11 and VAX market (which it appears that they are), they may have only designed it for 16-bit mode. And I wouldn't bet on the things being cheap to purchase, although the reduction in operating costs compared to running an RP06 or RM05 24x7 would probably pay for it in a few years. But I doubt that RCS/RI plans to run any of their PDP-10s 24x7. Perhaps if the thing *does* support 18-bit mode, Setasi could be convinced to donate one to RCS/RI. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 28 15:29:31 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: Message-ID: <99112816302506.03126@vault.neurotica.com> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, LordTyran wrote: >> > I collect old Records and 8 track tapes I activly listen to both >> >formats. >> >> Ok, *now* I'm scared. ;) >You've never lived until you're heard 2112 on LP :) I have a modest record >collection, too.... all of them older than I am.. :) I have indeed heard 2112 on LP. Glorious! Still have it. :) Nothing to play it on, though. :-/ -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 28 15:55:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991128120822.067c1a0c@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Nov 28, 99 12:08:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2329 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991128/a64e9bd6/attachment.ksh From rickb at bensene.com Sun Nov 28 18:10:49 1999 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4641 Printer (DEC LA-180) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bf39fe$322f4ba0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> Hi, all, A friend of mine has dug the following item out of his basement. It is a free-standing dot-matrix printer, with a 'stand', which has power supply and (lots of TTL) logic in it. It is a wide-carriage printer with pin-feed, with single dot-matrix printhead. It has a label on the front that says Tektronix 4641, but inside the bottom of the chassis is a sheet that says "Digital Equipment Corporation" and "DEC LA 180". Sounds like Tektronix may have OEM'd this printer from DEC. It appears to have a serial RS-232 interface that is a separate circuit board that is 'added on' to some kind of parallel interface. Anyone know anything about this beast? Is it something that would be worth rescuing? Thanks, all. Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 28 18:12:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <199911290012.TAA07556@world.std.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >Since the GOV also loved DEC, I'd be very surprised to learn that there's no > >practical implementation available of the EXB8200 on a DEC machine... > > They do exist...I have a couple of subsystems here which have Exabyte > drives in them (unmodified, regular SCSI drives) with bridge boards which > go to SDI connectors on the other side. We had a few of them on the VAXcluster at Lucent. Screwy damn things... you had to double-tap one of the bridge-card buttons to unload the tapes; they wouldn't unload with the internal eject button nor under VMS control. I myself have more than one 8200. If anyone is looking, let me know. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 28 19:42:34 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Processor Handbook? In-Reply-To: <199911282344.SAA06603@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991128174234.00704700@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Brian: At 06:49 PM 11/28/99 -0500, you wrote: >I think it's great what you're doing -- digitizing PDP-8 docs for public >use, however my main interest is the PDP-11, so I was wondering if you >have a PDP-11 Processor Handbook (preferably one that relates to the >PDP-11/45) that you plan on digitizing? Thanks. Thanks! Credit for the scanning goes to others, I just manitain the web site. I don't have anything on the pdp-11 in electronic form. Rich Cini specializes in pdp-11 stuff, he has an account on highgate too. See http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini to see what he currently has online. I've cc-ed him on this message so you can talk directly if necessary. You could also ask on the classiccmp list: classiccmp@u.washington.edu, or on the pdp-11 list: info-pdp11@village.org List folks: can anybody help this fellow with an electronic format processor handbook? Good luck, Kevin > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Nov 28 20:41:14 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: DEC Qbus Card In-Reply-To: <38418FAB.44921CC4@storm.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991128184114.00947970@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:25 28-11-1999 -0500, you wrote: >I found an Emulex CU04...... Qbus card today. Being the curious type, I >picked it up. 'CU' in Emulexian (oooh, new language!) usually means a communications adapter of some sort. I suspect what you have is one half of a multiport serial setup. Unfortunately, with Emulex, the other half is a lot more than just a distro panel. There's a bunch of electronics in it as well, so you need both matching halves for that unit to be useful. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 28 21:58:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you Message-ID: <199911290358.WAA06974@world.std.com> RLL bridge. It operates in a way which I have one in use but it's been a long while since I did it. Watch out for track (one head) and cylinder (n many heads). < to that to get the track offest for partitioning or system tracks. < < I took out my pair of these tonight to see what level of functionality they're in. One of them gives a "dead HD" error on bootup (see http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/errores.html) which was confirmed by downloading the boot/diagnostics disk and firing it up with that (see http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/models.html for disks, if you've got a PS/2 that needs them). Turns out one of these also has the 300/1200/2400 modem and the PS/2 (MCA-bus, woah, in a portable!) SCSI card w/cache (its got two SIMM sticking on it, even). Right now I cant figure out how to get the HD out of the machine so I can swap it with the one from the other box (or possibly replace it with another IBM drive, these look to be the proprietaary PS/2 card-edge- connector HDs). Anybody got one or more of these machines that they'd like to "dispose" of, if I pay shipping? I love the red plasma display, and plan to use this box (if I can get it fully working with a HD) on my packet radio station. I've got this other semi-DOA (no screen display, no beeps, but power lights) 70-386, and in the garage somewhere, a complete (no manuals, but it boots and works, and has the I/O expansion "slice") IBM PC Convertible laptop, with power supply in IBm canvase carrying case, if anybody's interested and wants to swap something for them. I've also got this MCA-bus SCSI controller card w/cache, if that would prove useful to anyone... (I cant use it, it has the funky IBM-proprietary external SCSI connector on back). Bill (man, plasma displays are wonderful, wish I could find more machines that used them.. I've already got a couple of Toshiba 3x00 laptops that i use as VT100 terminals; anybody else know of portable machines that used similar displays?) -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 29 00:44:43 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: IBM P70-386 portable machines In-Reply-To: <19991129000512.Y29322@mrbill.net> References: <19991129000512.Y29322@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <19991129004443.A29322@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 12:05:12AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > I took out my pair of these tonight to see what level of functionality > they're in. One of them gives a "dead HD" error on bootup (see > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/errores.html) which was > confirmed by downloading the boot/diagnostics disk and firing it up with > that (see http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/models.html for > disks, if you've got a PS/2 that needs them). Turns out one of these also > has the 300/1200/2400 modem and the PS/2 (MCA-bus, woah, in a portable!) > SCSI card w/cache (its got two SIMM sticking on it, even). > Right now I cant figure out how to get the HD out of the machine so I > can swap it with the one from the other box (or possibly replace it > with another IBM drive, these look to be the proprietaary PS/2 card-edge- > connector HDs). Well, I got the HD out of the first machine (WD-160S ESDI 160mb), and replaced it with the HD out of the second machine (120mb ESDI). Turned the machine on, got keyboard light, power light, then the box turned itself off and wont come back on. I also yanked the modem and SCSI cards when I was working on the HD - would this be likely to cause a "self shutdown"? I've seen similar in MCA-bus RS/6000 boxes when cards werent seated correctly, etc. -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Nov 28 20:28:04 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: IBM P70-386 portable machines In-Reply-To: <19991129004443.A29322@mrbill.net> References: <19991129000512.Y29322@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <199911290727.CAA08206@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:44:43 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Bill Bradford > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: IBM P70-386 portable machines > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 12:05:12AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > > I took out my pair of these tonight to see what level of functionality > > they're in. One of them gives a "dead HD" error on bootup (see > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/errores.html) which was > > confirmed by downloading the boot/diagnostics disk and firing it up with > > that (see http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/models.html for > > disks, if you've got a PS/2 that needs them). Turns out one of these also > > has the 300/1200/2400 modem and the PS/2 (MCA-bus, woah, in a portable!) > > SCSI card w/cache (its got two SIMM sticking on it, even). > > Right now I cant figure out how to get the HD out of the machine so I > > can swap it with the one from the other box (or possibly replace it > > with another IBM drive, these look to be the proprietaary PS/2 card-edge- > > connector HDs). > > Well, I got the HD out of the first machine (WD-160S ESDI 160mb), and replaced > it with the HD out of the second machine (120mb ESDI). Turned the machine on, > got keyboard light, power light, then the box turned itself off and wont > come back on. I also yanked the modem and SCSI cards when I was working on > the HD - would this be likely to cause a "self shutdown"? I've seen similar > in MCA-bus RS/6000 boxes when cards werent seated correctly, etc. > Hi Bill! Pull power cable, pop the back off again, recheck all connections and remove any that looks like shorting to something supposed not to be and try again with power with cover off. Press all socketed chips also the power connections. Check your FD stuff that none are shorting together or connected wrong. I remember that DBA HD (it's correct IBMism term) edge connector is not keyed, therefore can go on both ways. Leave it off and power up and see? I just picked up 3 P70's 120mb model, all same, I'm going to strip two and keep one and other parts as my use, any left over to sell for modest $, let me know what you need. There were LOTs of ECA's on these poor but wonderful P70s. Look up at computercraft.com for details. Most of the hefty mass are in PSU, HD and display, no kidding. Carcass case with back attached weighs like 5lbs. And a pain to take apart especially when those techs had to do the ECA corrections. Question: Who pays the piper when doing the ECAs work; IBM or customer? There were two types of P70 motherboards. One had 386 in line with MCA slot riser on right side of CPU. The other type has '386 below the MCA slot riser. Care to tell a bit more about these differences? Ditto with those video boards types. I'm planning to build a FD cable adapter to use peecee FDs plugs into 40pin via adapter on my also recently aquired mod 70-Axx. Have both pinouts for this. Will report on this one. Wizard PS: -Axx models on 80 and model 70 are really few even rarer to see a offical Type III mb with 486 daughterboard in 70. I only saw one 70-Axx once and I have it finally! Others models are common as beans even truckloads of 30 and, 50 (few 50Zs) 55sx (yuk, but cute boxens!). I love them and I had good memories with them. Had used on them during high school days, around 88-93, when I left for college. That high school had ICONs, only way to get any good response during heavy load is pecking the action key, was still in use in library when last left for college. I never thought much of digital stuff till given account user on Vaxens at that college. Vaxens were "good" real machines compared to winblows and I liked notes for discussions even the fact I'm deaf. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Mon Nov 29 03:03:31 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) References: <199911281924.OAA08537@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38424163.ADD0F995@softstar.it> Megan wrote: > > Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the > DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives. > They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a > close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the > drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is > a very large paper-weight. I don't think you can hack the RP06 to run on single phase as you could do on a VAX 6xxx. > I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but > we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have. If you come up with one please post on the list. > We have, however, been getting all the data off the tapes so as not > to lose it. > > It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent > tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to > have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine, > and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks... Like the QBUS, UNIBUS adapter to IDE drives; I'm gonna look at it since all the RDxx on my PDPs are failing. But you would still have the problem of getting the stuff out of the original disks; but having a Massbus-2-SCSI adapter would be nice especially to avoid the cost of RP06 or RM03 media. Megan, if you ever think to through away your 10 ;-) because of lack of three phase power, please tell me; I have a friend that works in a shipping company (real ships) that can get me a very cheap price for one o those big containers and now that I have an IBM 4381 I have access to a 50KVA line 8-)))))))))))))))))))) e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 29 03:07:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4641 Printer (DEC LA-180) In-Reply-To: <000301bf39fe$322f4ba0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> References: Message-ID: >Sounds like Tektronix may have OEM'd this printer from DEC. >It appears to have a serial RS-232 interface that is a separate >circuit board that is 'added on' to some kind of parallel >interface. Not surprising, a several pieces of Tek gear had DEC stuff inside in the 80's. Somewhere I've got some doc's of some kind talking about a system of theirs that had a MicroVAX inside, IIRC. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 29 03:23:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m Memory (still more) Message-ID: OK, I've been working on this for the past several days trying to see if data is actually being written to the core. However, I have run into a bit of a stumbling block. What is the following Chip, and does anyone have a pinout? S7316 DEC 6380A The MA lines go into it on the G227 board. 1=GND 8=Vcc +5V I think 4,7,12 are all inputs. I assume the 'S7316' is the manufacturer part number? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 29 03:52:37 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <0.c3847b1e.2570c3df@aol.com> Message-ID: >Faugh! They're too small. I have to admit I'm tempted by the Royal Arsenal >18 inch gauge prototype. A nice side benefit is the cars are large >enough to store cpu's in, too. Costa Mesa, CA has a large group of 18" train buffs, and I "think" they make us look almost sane. They made a deal with the city to use some undeveloped land west of the golf course on (Harbor?), and have a nice long layout and workshops, with the give side being free rides on one or two weekends a months (kids LOVE this). From rhblake at creative-net.net Mon Nov 29 05:23:01 1999 From: rhblake at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:49 2005 Subject: IBM P70-386 portable machines References: <19991129000512.Y29322@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <38426214.1DD21393@creative-net.net> The cover comes off with 3 screws, two at the bottom corners, one at the cable access door in the back. Pry CAREFULLY in the area of the handle to finish getting the back off. The HD is them mounted in a cage dealie that has 2 or 3 screws which are obvious for their locations. Remove the cage and drive and remove the card edge conector when it allows. By the way, unless someone has put in a secondary controller the HD is an IBM MCM (ESDI essentially) drive. Easily found and up to 160mb capacity. Bill Bradford wrote: > I took out my pair of these tonight to see what level of functionality > they're in. One of them gives a "dead HD" error on bootup (see > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/errores.html) which was > confirmed by downloading the boot/diagnostics disk and firing it up with > that (see http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/models.html for > disks, if you've got a PS/2 that needs them). Turns out one of these also > has the 300/1200/2400 modem and the PS/2 (MCA-bus, woah, in a portable!) > SCSI card w/cache (its got two SIMM sticking on it, even). > > Right now I cant figure out how to get the HD out of the machine so I > can swap it with the one from the other box (or possibly replace it > with another IBM drive, these look to be the proprietaary PS/2 card-edge- > connector HDs). > > Anybody got one or more of these machines that they'd like to "dispose" > of, if I pay shipping? I love the red plasma display, and plan to use > this box (if I can get it fully working with a HD) on my packet radio > station. > > I've got this other semi-DOA (no screen display, no beeps, but power lights) > 70-386, and in the garage somewhere, a complete (no manuals, but it boots and > works, and has the I/O expansion "slice") IBM PC Convertible laptop, with > power supply in IBm canvase carrying case, if anybody's interested and wants > to swap something for them. > > I've also got this MCA-bus SCSI controller card w/cache, if that would prove > useful to anyone... (I cant use it, it has the funky IBM-proprietary external > SCSI connector on back). > > Bill (man, plasma displays are wonderful, wish I could find more machines > that used them.. I've already got a couple of Toshiba 3x00 laptops that > i use as VT100 terminals; anybody else know of portable machines that > used similar displays?) > > -- > Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net > mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using > Windows NT for mission-critical applications." > -- What Yoda *meant* to say From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 06:52:27 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: D--16 Maintenance Manuals? Someone needed them? Message-ID: <001101bf3a68$971c7e60$7177e2d1@default> I have two maintenance manuals for the D-116. Someone requested these a while ago from this list but I cannot locate the email from him. Please e-mail me so I can ship them out. The first manual is part I (CPU handbook), the other manual is full schematics. PDP-8s and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Nov 29 08:05:19 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? Message-ID: <01BF3A48.DC945C30.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Saturday, November 27, 1999 7:40 PM, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez [SMTP:cem14@cornell.edu] wrote: > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this country > > would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power, fewer > > natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than it > > would be with a fossil fuel powered one. > > > > --Chuck Remember Bhopal, India? At least 15,000 died in that disaster and a reported 600,000 more suffered injuries. Why are we more critical of the russians then Union Carbide? Steve Robertson - From truthanl at oclc.org Mon Nov 29 08:51:50 1999 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: D--16 Maintenance Manuals? Someone needed them? Message-ID: <3DF3710809BCD0119DF90000F84009D1016EAE12@oa2-server.dev.oclc.org> Please send them to Larry Truthan OCLC Inc - MC 363 6565 Frantz Rd Dublin OH 43017 -----Original Message----- From: John B [mailto:dylanb@sympatico.ca] Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:52 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: D--16 Maintenance Manuals? Someone needed them? I have two maintenance manuals for the D-116. Someone requested these a while ago from this list but I cannot locate the email from him. Please e-mail me so I can ship them out. The first manual is part I (CPU handbook), the other manual is full schematics. PDP-8s and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From lance at costanzo.net Mon Nov 29 09:26:52 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991129072650.0071dad4@costanzo.net> At 12:13 PM 11/28/1999 -0800, you wrote: >It said "Microsoft DOS Version 3.3", IIRC. But now it won't boot from >the electronic drive, so I'm stuck with using an external floppy (for >now). If it helps matters, the COMMAND.COM on the electronic disk shows >a size of 25,308 and a creation date of 02-02-88 at 12:00a. This is MS DOS 3.3a, or 3.3.02, or 3.30a, or 3.30.02 (depending on how you pick your nits :); the timestamp is really 00:00:02. Let me know via email if you still need it. Lance. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 08:33:45 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Cool haul this weekend. Message-ID: <003901bf3a76$be1d33c0$7177e2d1@default> Managed to pick up: 2 more H901 DEC educational/prototyping flip chip panels 35 DECtapes with 2 rack mount holders, software is mostly PDP-9, some PDP-8 (OS/8) and a couple PDP-15. PDP-10 Applications in Physics manuals. 8" IBM disks (bunch).. cool for the Sykes 7150. KM-11 plastic templates A bunch of Nova software magtapes Storage: *just* started one storage unit and found 4 complete RK11-D controller sets still in the BA-11s (from Ontario Paper). Viewed the Fujitsu Super Computer (WOW!) Looks like the next load will be half a dozen PDP-8s in Georgia. I will post all my *micro PDP-8 diagnostics* later today. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 10:23:04 1999 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem Message-ID: I have a CPC6128 which reports that there is no disk in the drive when I try to run a program or even |dir. I have opened the box up and it looks as if the drive isn't spinning up. Does anyone know about the internals of this (3") drive? I wonder if there is a microswitch somewhere which is perhaps not making contact. -- Regards Pete From stan at netcom.com Mon Nov 29 10:48:52 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Surplus paper tape punch/reader available Message-ID: <3842AE74.F85DD8D1@netcom.com> Hello all, Although it's not *my* particular interest, a paper tape punch/reader caught my eye while I was scrounging around some surplus stores over the weekend and I thought of this group. I *know* you're going to ask the manufacturer and model, and I have to say that I don't remember, but it *wasn't* DEC, HP, IBM, or any other brand I recognized. It looks like it was designed to mount vertically in a 19" rack, and it is about 2 feet high, rack width, and about 6 or 8 inches deep. It has what appears to be a serial interface, and it even has a fairly decent size roll of unpunched tape loaded. It's in very good cosmetic condition (except for the dust on it) and it appears to be complete. I don't know if it works, but the little bin has a lot of punch debris in it, so it did at one time, anyway! If there's any interest in this item, I can go get more specifics on it. I doubt they guy wants too much for it, but then again I haven't asked him yet... Regards, Stan From pmarzolf at juno.com Mon Nov 29 11:43:24 1999 From: pmarzolf at juno.com (pmarzolf@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Old Compute stuff Message-ID: <19991129.104335.-78277.1.pmarzolf@juno.com> I am looking for new homes for all the old computer stuff I have collected in my 40 years of working in the computer busness. I'm not a collector just a person that don't like to through any think away. I have 16 boxes of information, books, manuals, magazines, and software. Anyone interested or know someone that would be interested contact me using my E-mail address. Paul V. Marzolf 2761 Morningside Dr. Salt Lake City, Ut. 84124 Phone: (801) 277 7556 E-mail: pmarzolf@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From john at antiquepc.com Mon Nov 29 11:36:09 1999 From: john at antiquepc.com (John Halberstadt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Computer recycling companies in Sacramento? Message-ID: <002201bf3a90$39a54fa0$07d64fd1@asapcorp.com> Hello all, I've recently moved to the Sacramento area and was interested if anyone on the list is aware of any computer recycling companies out here? I know of a few in Orange County and the Bay Area, but can't seem to find anything out here. Any input is appreciated. Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991129/936027c8/attachment.html From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 29 11:55:18 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Pittsburgh Goodwill References: <3842AE74.F85DD8D1@netcom.com> Message-ID: <3842BE06.4189C5B1@rain.org> While I was back in Pittsburgh, PA this past week, I stopped by the Goodwill Computer Store in Southside on Carson St. They had quite a bit of older computer stuff and the prices were rather reasonable. I found it a bit distressing to hear that they were turning away old computers since there was no market for them. This would be a wonderful opportunity for someone in that area to touch base with the people there and see what could be done to save some of this stuff from the dumpster. While there, I picked up an Atari 800XL, Adam software, C-64 stuff, Apple manuals, etc. While some of this stuff is relatively common, I can only think of the stuff that has been thrown away for lack of a market. As I said, wonderfull opportunity there for someone willing to cultivate the people there! From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 29 12:16:05 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Pittsburgh Goodwill In-Reply-To: <3842BE06.4189C5B1@rain.org> References: <3842AE74.F85DD8D1@netcom.com> <3842BE06.4189C5B1@rain.org> Message-ID: <19991129121605.D11166@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 09:55:18AM -0800, Marvin wrote: > While I was back in Pittsburgh, PA this past week, I stopped by the Goodwill > Computer Store in Southside on Carson St. They had quite a bit of older > computer stuff and the prices were rather reasonable. I found it a bit > distressing to hear that they were turning away old computers since there > was no market for them. This would be a wonderful opportunity for someone in > that area to touch base with the people there and see what could be done to > save some of this stuff from the dumpster. While there, I picked up an Atari > 800XL, Adam software, C-64 stuff, Apple manuals, etc. While some of this > stuff is relatively common, I can only think of the stuff that has been > thrown away for lack of a market. As I said, wonderfull opportunity there > for someone willing to cultivate the people there! Its good to see that there's more than one Goodwill Computer Store (its called "Goodwill ComputerWorks" here in Austin). You might check with your store - at least the one locally has a "wish list" that they keep for non-PC/Mac stuff (if they get something in, they call you) - and they dont discard ANYTHING here - if its not "sellable" in the store, they have auctions once a week and sell off the rest by the pallet-load. They've got some clueful people working at the local shop - they've got a rather nice "Classic Computers" display setup (everything from an Appple II to a Kaypro, a GRiD laptop,a PET, etc), and a good selection of various networking hardware (man, if I used ARCnet, I could have all the network hardware I ever needed..). Right now, they've even got a semi-complete AT&T 3B1 (aka "UNIX PC") on display for sale (along with most of a 2nd unit). Last week, they sold a complete (with manuals, scrapbook of advertisements/newspaper clipps, etc) IBM PC setup with monochrome monitor, and a month ago, they had a FULLY complete TRS-80 Model 1 system. Best haul I've made there so far was an IBM RS/6000 model 320H complete with 32mb RAM/color video/400mb HD for $25. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows NT for mission-critical applications." -- What Yoda *meant* to say From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Nov 29 13:04:41 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: The good old days of tape players References: <199911261130.MAA16509@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <3842CE48.FB60719F@olf.com> Hi, My very first computer was a TI99/4A which I still have. I was in junior high at that time. I couldnt afford to get the disk drive cage as it was more expensive than the computer! Also, single-sided floppy disks were expensive. I remember we used to get double sided floppies and use a hole puncher to punch a similar hole on the left side of the disk and flip it around to use it on the old single-sided floppy drives. A friend of mine, who was an electrical engineer, also bought the TI at the same time I did. Instead of spending some $30-$40 for an interface cable to hook up a tape player to the TI, he fashioned himself his own and built one for me as well. I used my old tape player that had a counter on it to record games and stuff that I typed up from Compute magazine (anyone remember). I used to spend days typing the stuff to get it working. Those were the days and I kind of miss it. Those golden days were great. That got me to think if there was a way to hook up a tape player (cassette) to an IBMPC to mimick it. Has anyone tried this..... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991129/ca59ed9a/attachment.html From west at tseinc.com Mon Nov 29 13:00:27 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Surplus paper tape punch/reader available References: <3842AE74.F85DD8D1@netcom.com> Message-ID: <011301bf3a9c$00ce6a20$0101a8c0@jay> Stan; I saw your post on classiccmp. I'd be very interested in getting some more information on that paper tape reader/punch. I have a tape reader already, but no tape punches. I wanted to make sure it was standard width paper tape and not the extra wide stuff. Would you mind checking into the make and/or model and price for me? I'd really appreciate it (I have a lot of paper tapes that I only have one copy of). Thanks! Jay West HP 1000 collector From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 29 13:47:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: The good old days of tape players In-Reply-To: <3842CE48.FB60719F@olf.com> References: <199911261130.MAA16509@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >stuff to get it working. Those were the days and I kind of miss it. >Those golden days were great. That got me to think if there was a way to >hook up a tape player (cassette) to an IBMPC to mimick it. Has anyone >tried this..... Hmmm, well I've seen software that lets you use a sound card as a Oscope of sorts. You could most likely set something simular up that would output to the tape player, and take inputs via the audio in. BUT, is this really something you want to do :^) Wait a minute.... How do people read stuff like VIC-20 cassette tapes into the computer to use in emulators? That's what you need to look into if you want to try something like this. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Nov 29 14:04:04 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Antique Trader Message-ID: <01BF3A7A.FADD4710.steverob@hotoffice.com> Someone in my office brought in a clip from "Antique Trader" dated Nov 10, 1999. Featured in this rag was "An Introduction to Collecting Computers" by our fellow collector Kevin Stumpf. The only inacurracy was in the "Lists and Newsgroups" section where it said "Send an email to *Error! Bookmark not Defined*". This was supposed to be a plug for the CC list but, got mangled before going to press :-( All in all, a very nice article... Way to go Kevin! Steve Robertson - From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Nov 29 14:08:11 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument In-Reply-To: <38416932.911178C5@netcom.com> References: <199911281720.SAA02744@dns.cyberlink.ch> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991129140811.009b4a30@207.207.0.212> Stan, I can e-mail you a copy and you can transfer it to a 5.25" disc if you still need it. E-mail me back if you want me to send. A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 29 14:14:58 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <199911280715.AAA17637@calico.litterbox.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 27, 1999 09:57:49 PM Message-ID: >Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To >the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if they were >correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. > >> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese sword for >> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 12:48:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: PDP-8/m Memory (still more) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 29, 99 01:23:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991129/42f34e03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 13:02:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem In-Reply-To: from "Peter Joules" at Nov 29, 99 04:23:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991129/d4561696/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Nov 29 14:53:19 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 29, 1999 12:14:58 PM Message-ID: <199911292053.NAA24606@calico.litterbox.com> > > >Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To > >the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if they were > >correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. > > > >> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese sword for > >> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box > > This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major > ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. One wonders where your friend got the thing. I was under the impression they're illegal to export from Japan. (not sure where I got that impression though) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 29 14:54:48 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: DG house numbered part xref/help with what *looks* like a mux... References: Message-ID: <3842E818.444F49A9@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone has a DG house number to generic > > part cross reference somewhere (if not I suppose I'll start one). > > I don't know of one in electronic form, although it would be well worth > starting one... I think I'll add that to the ever-growing list of Things To Do. [snip] > OK, I thought I recognsed this pinout as being a Signets 82xx device... > And I've looked in the databook. It's acutall one of 9 devices : 8233, > 8234, 8235, 8266, 8267, 82S33, 82S34, 82S66, 82S67. [snip] > Given that you think it's open collector, it's either an 8234, an 8235 or > an 8267 (or the schottky versions). If you have a working chip elsewhere > on the board I guess you could identify it from that. *sighs* Funny, the "house number" on the part in question is 8234B. I'd frown so used to standard 74xx logic having weird house numbers that I simply assumed it was the case for this package as well (it *does* have a DG logo stenciled on it, so my assumption wasn't all *that* unwarranted). Thanks to Tony for spotting the part, and Tim for actually looking up the cross reference... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 29 16:56:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <199911280715.AAA17637@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991129165633.3b876b96@mailhost.intellistar.net> I picked up a pair of chrome plated Japanese swords at a local yard sale for $25 and took them into one of the local shows to be appraised. The appraiser wouldn't tell me what they were worth but he did say that they were 16th century and in a very rare style. He said that the chrome plating was something that had been done recently and that it practically ruined the value of the swords otherwise they would have been worth a considerable amount. BTW I've heard that samari swords are illegal in Japan now. What are the Japanese doing with them if they can't take them back to Japan? Joe At 12:14 PM 11/29/99 -0800, you wrote: >>Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To >>the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if they were >>correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. >> >>> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese sword for >>> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box > >This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major >ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 29 14:57:30 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Computer recycling companies in Sacramento? References: <002201bf3a90$39a54fa0$07d64fd1@asapcorp.com> Message-ID: <3842E8BA.BBFBEE23@mainecoon.com> > John Halberstadt wrote: > I've recently moved to the Sacramento area and was interested if anyone on the list is > aware of any computer recycling companies out here? I wish. Sac and Reno are the two closest (I use the term loosly) metro areas to where I live; I have yet to find anyone who deals in (read "typically shreads") older stuff in either area. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon Nov 29 15:20:12 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? References: <199911280715.AAA17637@calico.litterbox.com> <3.0.1.16.19991129165633.3b876b96@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3842EE0C.CA55E7CE@mindspring.com> When in Japan 10 years ago, my friend told me that all swords were considered illegal weapons. He had MANY swords mounted on his walls. We used to have fun shredding cardboard boxes with them. From what i understand, walking around with one is illegal, but owning one wasn't. IF it were, its a shame that Japan would throw away one of its most honored traditions. Robert Joe wrote: > I picked up a pair of chrome plated Japanese swords at a local yard sale > for $25 and took them into one of the local shows to be appraised. The > appraiser wouldn't tell me what they were worth but he did say that they > were 16th century and in a very rare style. He said that the chrome plating > was something that had been done recently and that it practically ruined > the value of the swords otherwise they would have been worth a considerable > amount. > > BTW I've heard that samari swords are illegal in Japan now. What are the > Japanese doing with them if they can't take them back to Japan? > > Joe > > At 12:14 PM 11/29/99 -0800, you wrote: > >>Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To > >>the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if they > were > >>correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. > >> > >>> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese sword for > >>> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box > > > >This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major > >ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. > > > > > > From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 15:16:43 1999 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2yfEOAA70uQ4Ew97@joules0.demon.co.uk> In article , Tony Duell writes >These drives are well-known for suffering from drive belt problems, which >of course results in the motor spinning but the disk not turning. Could >that be the problem with your drive? Thanks Tony, I will put a bit of paint on the motor spindle to see if that is moving. >If you do take the drive to bits, be careful as there's a tiny pin as >part of the WProt sensor that falls out and gets lost! > I will look out for that. As a point of interest, are these the same drives which are used in either the PCW8256 or the PCW9512? IIRC one is single sided and the other double. -- Regards Pete From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Nov 29 15:25:25 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: trancor northern, oscilloscopes Message-ID: <199911292125.VAA07815@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I just saw some rack mounted oscilloscopes out on the loading dock. They are manufactured by trancor northern, and have a quad height slot available from the rear of the unit (no cover for the slot). It has a dual height LSI11 cpu board (DEC), and another dual height board installed(DEC). The second unit is the same, except the second card has generic white handles. Does anyone know about these things? one rack has two of these, and under them is a dual 8" floppy drive unit, that has a small ribbon connector that connects to something via a 25 pin rs-232 connector. There are various oscilloscope probes there as well, with BNC style connectors to connect to the oscilloscope. I didnt count, but i'd say roughly a dozen probes mounted on the outside of the rack on some custom made holder. -Lawrence LeMay From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Nov 29 15:33:11 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Old Compute stuff In-Reply-To: <19991129.104335.-78277.1.pmarzolf@juno.com> Message-ID: <13503535001.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Got any PDP-10 stuff? I'm writing an emulator and any docs/software/etc. is useful ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Nov 29 15:34:23 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Oops. Message-ID: <13503535219.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Chalk that one up to user error. ^_^ Sorry. ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 29 15:40:14 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: trancor northern, oscilloscopes Message-ID: <991129164014.20200154@trailing-edge.com> >I just saw some rack mounted oscilloscopes out on the loading dock. They are >manufactured by trancor northern, and have a quad height slot available from >the rear of the unit (no cover for the slot). It has a dual height LSI11 >cpu board (DEC), and another dual height board installed(DEC). The second >unit is the same, except the second card has generic white handles. > >Does anyone know about these things? one rack has two of these, and >under them is a dual 8" floppy drive unit, that has a small ribbon >connector that connects to something via a 25 pin rs-232 connector. It's *probably* a multichannel analyzer (MCA), not an oscilliscope. MCA's look at pulse heights and generate real-time cumulative histograms of pulse height on the screen. Tracor Northern is one of the more prolific manufacturers of MCA's. I once got to look at a MCA from the late 1940's, and it was fascinating: the input pulse was amplified, then fed to a solenoid that kicked a ball bearing up in a ballistic trajectory. There were bins that accumulated ball bearings according to how hard they'd been kicked. Fascinating machine! Of course, modern MCA's use computers to do the counting :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From john at antiquepc.com Mon Nov 29 15:00:14 1999 From: john at antiquepc.com (John Halberstadt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Old Compute stuff References: <19991129.104335.-78277.1.pmarzolf@juno.com> Message-ID: <003101bf3aac$bc2fd320$07d64fd1@asapcorp.com> Hi, I would definately be interested in any hardware/software/docs that you may have. Feel free to contact me at john@antiquepc.com Thanks, John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:43 AM Subject: Old Compute stuff > > I am looking for new homes for all the old computer stuff I > have collected in my 40 years of working in the computer busness. > I'm not a collector just a person that don't like to through any > think away. I have 16 boxes of information, books, manuals, > magazines, and software. > > Anyone interested or know someone that would be interested > contact me using my E-mail address. > > Paul V. Marzolf > 2761 Morningside Dr. > Salt Lake City, Ut. 84124 > Phone: (801) 277 7556 > E-mail: pmarzolf@juno.com > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 29 17:45:21 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <199911292053.NAA24606@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991129174521.610733d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:53 PM 11/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >> This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major >> ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. > >One wonders where your friend got the thing. I was under the impression they're >illegal to export from Japan. (not sure where I got that impression though) I asked one of the sword dealers about this and he said that many were captured during WWII and brought home as souvenirs. Also that when Japan de-militarized after WWII that many swords there were collected up and the blades chrome plated for looks and then they were sold as tourist souvenirs. Evindently that's how the ones that I had ended up being plated. Also the previous owner did say that his father had brought them back from Japan shortly after WWII. Joe > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 29 16:10:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <199911292053.NAA24606@calico.litterbox.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 29, 1999 12:14:58 PM Message-ID: >> >> >Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern reproductions. To >> >the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if >>they were >> >correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. >> > >> >> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese >>sword for >> >> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box >> >> This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major >> ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. > >One wonders where your friend got the thing. I was under the impression >they're >illegal to export from Japan. (not sure where I got that impression though) Apparently a lot of swords were lost in WWII and found thier way to the US. The Japanese families that lost these swords are willing to pay big bucks for them if they can be found. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 29 16:18:20 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991129165633.3b876b96@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199911280715.AAA17637@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > BTW I've heard that samari swords are illegal in Japan now. What are the >Japanese doing with them if they can't take them back to Japan? You aren't allowed to carry them around even if you are a true descendant of a samurai family (something like that). These swords can do an amazing amount of damage, that is hard to grasp if you haven't actually seen it. Putting a fine sword on display though is dandy for a corporation etc. As far as the chrome goes, I hesitate to even clean some of the things I find, ie I have a old copy of the Complete Service Manual for American Flyer trains with what looks like some paint or whitewash type stuff splattered on the cover. Better to sell it as is to a collector who knows what they are doing. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 29 16:24:01 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Whats the screwiest thing you collect? In-Reply-To: References: <199911292053.NAA24606@calico.litterbox.com> from "Mike Ford" at Nov 29, 1999 Message-ID: >>> >>> >Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern >>>reproductions. To >>> >the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if >>>they were >>> >correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. >>> > >>> >> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese >>>sword for >>> >> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box >>> >>> This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major >>> ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. >> >>One wonders where your friend got the thing. I was under the impression >>they're >>illegal to export from Japan. (not sure where I got that impression though) > >Apparently a lot of swords were lost in WWII and found thier way to the US. >The Japanese families that lost these swords are willing to pay big bucks >for them if they can be found. Japanese I believe sometimes would "surrender" their swords as a formal gesture. GIs would also rob bodies, etc. Getting them back to Japan is a fair sized industry. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 16:11:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: DG house numbered part xref/help with what *looks* like a mux... In-Reply-To: <3842E818.444F49A9@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Nov 29, 99 12:54:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1017 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991129/7ad55ec4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 16:16:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem In-Reply-To: <2yfEOAA70uQ4Ew97@joules0.demon.co.uk> from "Peter Joules" at Nov 29, 99 09:16:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991129/e175a0fc/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 29 13:34:03 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Peter Joules wrote: > I have a CPC6128 which reports that there is no disk in the drive when I > try to run a program or even |dir. > > I have opened the box up and it looks as if the drive isn't spinning up. > Does anyone know about the internals of this (3") drive? I wonder if > there is a microswitch somewhere which is perhaps not making contact. > > -- > Regards > Pete The 3" drives have a belt driven spindle, and the common failure mode is a stretched belt. They are not too dificult to find or install. Check comp.sys.amstrad.8bit for likely sources. - don From rachael_ at gmx.net Mon Nov 29 17:19:04 1999 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Peter On 29-Nov-99, you wrote: > I have a CPC6128 which reports that there is no disk in the drive when I > try to run a program or even |dir. > > I have opened the box up and it looks as if the drive isn't spinning up. > Does anyone know about the internals of this (3") drive? I wonder if > there is a microswitch somewhere which is perhaps not making contact. the 3" drive used in the CPC has a small rubberband that transferes the movement from the motor to the disk spindel. You need a new one. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Nov 29 18:09:58 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: eMail: Capital offense? References: <99112816092702.03126@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <384315D6.6C97FD5E@banet.net> I've done some searching on the net, with no results. If anyone can provide "something concrete" on this, I would be very interested. If you'd prefer to keep bandwidth down, please email me at wpe101@banet.net. Thanks, Will Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah really...unemployment isn't much of a problem nowadays...at least not in > this business. > > I think nobody in their right mind would work for such a company. I > certainly wouldn't. > > -Dave McGuire > > On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > >Why would you want to work for someone who really wanted to get rid of > >you? Being fired from a place like that would be a blessing... > > > >On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > > >> Sorry for going a bit off-topic here. I normally have no qualm about > >> including my company email in my postings, it has resulted in some > >> interesting and useful dialogue since the topic *resembles* my work. But > >> a story that aired here in Houston yesterday gave me some pause to > >> think. It told of 3 workers at a midwest company who were terminated for > >> ........ RECEIVING !! ... non-work-related email. > >> > >> As usual with radio news, few details were provided. Was it spam? Was it > >> blatant personal mail? I wonder if anyone else has run across this > >> story. While I don't believe that my own company would be this > >> arbitrary, one has to wonder ..... if your employer Really wanted to get > >> rid of you ....... > >> > >> Nick Oliviero > >> From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 17:29:18 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <000a01bf3ac1$8e8bf7e0$a677e2d1@default> Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask here first.... I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally talks to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a while read a sector. I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974 with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier. Anyone have one available? Please e-mail. P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software diskettes from the early '70s PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From west at tseinc.com Mon Nov 29 18:25:39 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: eMail: Capital offense? References: <99112816092702.03126@vault.neurotica.com> <384315D6.6C97FD5E@banet.net> Message-ID: <022301bf3ac9$6eac8220$0101a8c0@jay> I had our corporate attorneys look into this issue in a general way several years ago. I was told that in Missouri at least, a company may do anything they want to with an employees email, including but not limited to reading it. The catch is that the email must be delivered using company owned equipment. If the mail is received by or transits company gear, it actually belongs to them. That much I know. So, it seems fairly clear companies have a right to read your email. Then the question becomes what can they do about it? I would strongly suspect that if they have a clear company policy that demands no personal mail be sent or received, and they have no past incidents of enforcing it subjectively or failing to enforce it at all, and they can prove you were clearly aware of the policy, it would be very difficult to fight. Companies usually cover this by putting any regulations in the employee handbook or equivalent document, and when you start your employment they usually require you to sign a one-pager that says you have read and understand and agree to abide by all company policies. Not that I agree with any of the above, but that's what I've heard anyways. Jay West From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 29 18:46:38 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Amstrad CPC 6128 Floppy problem" (Nov 29, 19:02) References: Message-ID: <9911300046.ZM23104@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 19:02, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have a CPC6128 which reports that there is no disk in the drive when I > > try to run a program or even |dir. > > > > I have opened the box up and it looks as if the drive isn't spinning up. > I don't notice > a disk-inserted sensor on the FD1 schematic in the 8256 service manual > (which I am pretty sure is the same drive), though, and it appears to > detect a disk in place by looking for index pulses (the circuitry around > Q5-Q8). I think that's right. The classic symptom of the very common drive belt problem is that the disk isn't detected. Since the motor is pretty quiet, yo might not realise it's running but simply not driving the spindle. > These drives are well-known for suffering from drive belt problems, which > of course results in the motor spinning but the disk not turning. Could > that be the problem with your drive? *Very* common. After a few years disuse, the belt goes slack. In a pinch, you can replace the belt with a flat rubber band to prove the rest of the drive is operational, but it won't be completely reliable. The belts are easy to get, at least here in the UK, and quite cheap (a pound or so) if you don't buy the branded Amstrad spare part. However, they're flat belts and not very stretchy, unlike most round- or square-section cassette belts, so you do need to get the right size. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ndiablo at diablonet.net Mon Nov 29 20:07:52 1999 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Unkonwn QBus card... anybody know what this is? Message-ID: <19991130020752.20605.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> Hi, all! I recently purchased a large batch of old QBus cards to expand some of the systems in my collection, and one of the cards in the batch is rather unknown to me... I know its some kind of disk controller, guessing MSCP ST-506 but I'm wondering if its SCSI because i'm seeing some resistor packs on the board that could be terminating resistors, I suppose... anyways, here's the information: (Label on top of large 48 pin IC) "TD Systems Inc. Lowell, MA - USA VIK/QDT #2111" (Label on 28 pin ROM) "Viking Q/B A4.0" (Etching on card component side) "211 00031 Rev. E" (Another etching on component side) "(C) 1987 Made in USA Assy 210-00031" Physical characteristics - dual width board, 50 pin connector on board with a single red LED near the connector. I'd appreciate it if someone could clue me in on the identity of the card - i'm rather curious as to what it is! :) Thanks, -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From elvey at hal.com Mon Nov 29 19:17:34 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <000a01bf3ac1$8e8bf7e0$a677e2d1@default> Message-ID: <199911300117.RAA28905@civic.hal.com> "John B" wrote: > Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask here > first.... > > I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a > half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally talks > to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a > while read a sector. > > I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. > > When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I > asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974 > with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the > correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier. Hi Try formatting the disk. If you still can't read back, an alignment disk won't help. Check that the head(s) are clean and, if single sided, that the pressure pad is not tilted. It is rare that the alignment is off unless someone fiddled with it. Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 29 19:18:42 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Unkonwn QBus card... anybody know what this is? Message-ID: <991129201842.20200177@trailing-edge.com> >Hi, all! I recently purchased a large batch of old QBus cards to expand >some of the systems in my collection, and one of the cards in the batch >is rather unknown to me... I know its some kind of disk controller, >guessing MSCP ST-506 but I'm wondering if its SCSI because i'm seeing >some resistor packs on the board that could be terminating resistors, >I suppose... anyways, here's the information: > >(Label on top of large 48 pin IC) > "TD Systems Inc. > Lowell, MA - USA > VIK/QDT #2111" > >(Label on 28 pin ROM) > "Viking > Q/B A4.0" It's a Viking QDT, a Q-bus host adapter for SCSI disks and tapes. (That's what the "DT" in QDT means.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 29 19:24:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <991129202437.20200177@trailing-edge.com> > Try formatting the disk. If you still can't read >back, an alignment disk won't help. I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy. Remember, we're talking large boards packed full of SSI TTL here, and the formatting functionality usually wasn't present. (Besides, at the time all 8" floppies came preformatted.) > Check that the head(s) >are clean and, if single sided, that the pressure pad is not >tilted. It is rare that the alignment is off unless someone >fiddled with it. 100% true. Unless it's been physically abused or someone decided they needed to "tweak" the alignment, it's probably right where it should be. And the advice to check the pressure pad is right on the money, too! Tim. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 29 19:28:20 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <000801bf3ad2$3096de00$0400c0a8@winbook> Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with alignment. If it's damaging your diskette emulsion, it's likely that it's either missing the headload pad, or the head penetration is misadjusted. I don't know what the procedure for head penetration adjustment on your particular drive is, but most drives seem to require a couple of feeler guages and some glyptol to make sure it doesn't move when you're done. Before I'll consider LENDING anyone one of my no longer readily available alignment diskettes, I want to be dead certain it won't be chewed up as might happen with the misadjusted head penetration or missing headload pad, or written on as might happen with an inappropriately set-up drive or controller. Even a $1k deposit won't ensure I get back a thoroughly useable diskette, and I've not seen one for sale in over 15 years. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John B To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 5:38 PM Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask here >first.... > >I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a >half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally talks >to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a >while read a sector. > >I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. > >When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I >asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974 >with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the >correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier. > >Anyone have one available? Please e-mail. > >P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >diskettes from the early '70s > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > From aek at spies.com Mon Nov 29 19:30:47 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <199911300130.RAA02033@spies.com> "I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy." Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 29 19:32:57 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <991129203257.20200177@trailing-edge.com> John B. wrote: >P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >diskettes from the early '70s Dick wrote: >Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you >that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with >alignment. It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head (lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely the head load pad. Tim. From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Nov 29 19:33:27 1999 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: eMail: Capital offense? References: <99112816092702.03126@vault.neurotica.com> <384315D6.6C97FD5E@banet.net> <022301bf3ac9$6eac8220$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <38432967.1457224C@arrl.net> Jay West wrote: > I had our corporate attorneys look into this issue in a general way several > years ago. > > I was told that in Missouri at least, a company may do anything they want to > with an employees email, including but not limited to reading it. The catch > is that the email must be delivered using company owned equipment. If the > mail is received by or transits company gear, it actually belongs to them. > That much I know. > > So, it seems fairly clear companies have a right to read your email. Then > the question becomes what can they do about it? I would strongly suspect > that if they have a clear company policy that demands no personal mail be > sent or received, Legitimate, acceptable policies in my view. What grabbed my attention about this story was that workers were fired because personal email was delivered to their accounts. A situation one usually has little control over. Don't want to pass judgement without knowing the details though. I've sent a query to the station that aired this, no response yet. Nick From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 29 19:34:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <991129203458.20200177@trailing-edge.com> >"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't >capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy." >Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored >discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used? Does the Sykes claim to be RX01-compatible? If so, it ought to be able to read standard IBM 3740 floppies. There are third-party-for-DEC-systems drives out there that don't emulate RX01 or RX02, and use their own propietary data formats. The AED 6200 is an example. Tim. From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Nov 30 19:36:34 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:50 2005 Subject: Antique Trader References: <01BF3A7A.FADD4710.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <001d01bf3b9c$8143bba0$8c81b7d1@kstumpf> If anyone else is able to read the article you will also see photographs from James Willing (IMSAI), Tom Owad (Poqet PC), and Charlie Fox (Electric Pencil) who are also members of this list. My favourite photograph though is the UNIVAC 1110. I bought the photograph from the Hagley Library in Delaware. It's a big beautiful mainframe. Sorry fellas. Tom and Charlie I owe you a copy of the newspaper, but have misplaced your email addresses. Please reply to me personally. Yours in good faith. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 18:37:05 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <005801bf3acb$06940800$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:31 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you >that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with >alignment. If it's damaging your diskette emulsion, it's likely that it's No.. My "eating" implies I am sticking in original IBM software disks to old IBM minis and writing over the data on them. :-( >either missing the headload pad, or the head penetration is misadjusted. I >don't know what the procedure for head penetration adjustment on your >particular drive is, but most drives seem to require a couple of feeler >guages and some glyptol to make sure it doesn't move when you're done. > >Before I'll consider LENDING anyone one of my no longer readily available >alignment diskettes, I want to be dead certain it won't be chewed up as >might happen with the misadjusted head penetration or missing headload pad, >or written on as might happen with an inappropriately set-up drive or >controller. Even a $1k deposit won't ensure I get back a thoroughly useable >diskette, and I've not seen one for sale in over 15 years. The *moment* I get this drive up I'll be making IBM alignment disks for the planet! > >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: John B >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 5:38 PM >Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. > > >>Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask >here >>first.... >> >>I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a >>half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally >talks >>to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a >>while read a sector. >> >>I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. >> >>When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I >>asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974 >>with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the >>correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier. >> >>Anyone have one available? Please e-mail. >> >>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >>diskettes from the early '70s >> >> >>PDP-8 and other rare mini computers >> >>http://www.pdp8.com >> >> >> > > From elvey at hal.com Mon Nov 29 19:41:12 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <991129203257.20200177@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199911300141.RAA29169@civic.hal.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's > not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head > (lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely > the head load pad. Hi If there is any grunk stuck on the head surface, it will damage the disk surface. I have an old TTL disk controller that would do formatting if one knew the trick but in general, I'm sure you guys are correct that the one in question didn't do formatting. Dwight From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 18:38:23 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <005f01bf3acb$3732a020$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:31 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't >capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy." > >Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored >discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used? Yes, the drive was *sold* on the fact that it was IBM compatible... Remember, I *can* get it to read in a sector once in awhile... They recommend using IBM 128byte record floppy disks. (what was available in 1974) > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 29 19:44:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <001a01bf3ad4$7ee55620$0400c0a8@winbook> As a matter of fact, it's not unusual for floppy drives to lose their alignment. What causes it is operating the stepping motor TOO SLOWLY. This is frequently done in an effort to be conservative and allow the use of as many different drives as possible, but the step rate is quite critical in the long-term retention of alignment. Two alignment seem to go askew frequently. One, the most common, is index alignment. An alignment diskette has a pulse or burst recorded nominally 200 microseconds after the start of the index pulse, thereby allowing you or the technician to move the index sense LED assembly once it's been loosened. I don't know why these get fouled up so easily, but the vibration from running a 6 ms drive at 8ms might be at fault. I'd say letting the springs POP the diskette out by snapping the drive door open can do quite a bit to move the index sensor around. Slamming the door shut won't help things either. The radial alignment doesn't get fouled up as often as people think, but the vibration I mentioned above is definitely the culprit, though rough handling can cause problems as well. If you can hear your drive move its heads, as you could with almost every PC FDD, then it's stepping too slowly. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> Try formatting the disk. If you still can't read >>back, an alignment disk won't help. > >I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't >capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy. Remember, we're talking large >boards packed full of SSI TTL here, and the formatting functionality >usually wasn't present. (Besides, at the time all 8" floppies came >preformatted.) > >> Check that the head(s) >>are clean and, if single sided, that the pressure pad is not >>tilted. It is rare that the alignment is off unless someone >>fiddled with it. > >100% true. Unless it's been physically abused or someone decided they >needed to "tweak" the alignment, it's probably right where it should be. > >And the advice to check the pressure pad is right on the money, too! > >Tim. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 29 19:50:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <002301bf3ad5$46b252c0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've got hundreds of diskettes over 20 years old, and NONE have been losing emulsion. I've had some of the jackets crack, and I've had some of the ones which have gotten wet along the way stick in their jackets so they wouldn't rotate, but the emulsion on those which would rotate, I've never had flaking of the emulsion. Maybe that's because it's really dry here in Denver. If you clean your disk heads from time to time, you'll probably not build up enough glutch to damage a diskette. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >John B. wrote: > >>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >>diskettes from the early '70s > >Dick wrote: > >>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you >>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with >>alignment. > >It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's >not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head >(lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely >the head load pad. > >Tim. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 18:47:02 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <006201bf3acc$6ae69920$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >John B. wrote: > >>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >>diskettes from the early '70s > >Dick wrote: > >>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you >>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with >>alignment. > >It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's >not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head >(lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely >the head load pad. Again, "eating" refers to the fact that when I try to write it is damaging the format through the writing process thereby destorying more original IBM software... It is a very clean drive and handles disks well.. (it just doesn't find sectors most of the time)... It isn't alignment as I can manually move the head very slightly back and forth which does affect the data coming into the controller assembly but does not help it find the actual sector... Therefore, hardware or an anlog adjustment I would like an alignment disk so I can use "their" tuning procedure to make this drive work quickly. It has a number of adjustments including : Clock, window, gap, etc... I would know what to expect (data wise) as I am troubleshooting the boards. PROBLEMS TO DATE: Cold solder joints on the backplane... yuck! Resoldered the whole thing just to get the drive to talk to the CPU... I expect 1 or 2 problems on the boards which are keeping this drive from running nicely. I try to restore things that are pre-8" but this drive was built for a Straight-8,8/S so I *have* to get it going. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > >Tim. > From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Nov 29 19:44:00 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Unkonwn QBus card... anybody know what this is? Message-ID: <019e01bf3ad5$60534c20$d252e780@tower166.office> It is a Viking disk and tape SCSI controller. I scanned the manuals and did a quick and dirty OCR of them. They are posted on Zane's site. ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi/ Dan - (Label on top of large 48 pin IC) "TD Systems Inc. Lowell, MA - USA VIK/QDT #2111" (Label on 28 pin ROM) "Viking Q/B A4.0" (Etching on card component side) "211 00031 Rev. E" (Another etching on component side) "(C) 1987 Made in USA Assy 210-00031" Physical characteristics - dual width board, 50 pin connector on board with a single red LED near the connector. I'd appreciate it if someone could clue me in on the identity of the card - i'm rather curious as to what it is! :) Thanks, -Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 18:49:24 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <006901bf3acc$bf2b7960$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >>"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't >>capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy." It cannot format anything. > >>Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored >>discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used? > >Does the Sykes claim to be RX01-compatible? If so, it ought to be able to read >standard IBM 3740 floppies. No it doesn't.. When did RX01s come out? They mention in the manual that you can copy its disks with a IBM 3741 copier??? > >There are third-party-for-DEC-systems drives out there that don't >emulate RX01 or RX02, and use their own propietary data formats. The >AED 6200 is an example. > >Tim. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 29 19:57:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Unkonwn QBus card... anybody know what this is? In-Reply-To: <19991130020752.20605.qmail@diablonet.dynip.com> from "ndiablo@diablonet.net" at Nov 30, 1999 02:07:52 AM Message-ID: <199911300157.RAA29822@shell1.aracnet.com> > (Label on top of large 48 pin IC) > "TD Systems Inc. > Lowell, MA - USA > VIK/QDT #2111" NICE!!! It's SCSI. For the manuals see ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan Zane From Joe_Gill at spe.sony.com Mon Nov 29 19:57:32 1999 From: Joe_Gill at spe.sony.com (Joe_Gill@spe.sony.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: for the love of god.... please remove me from this list ! Message-ID: <88256839.000AA29A.00@cpnts06.spe.sony.com> CANCEL STOP Thanks for interesting info..... Bye From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 29 19:59:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <002e01bf3ad6$812d3860$0400c0a8@winbook> I'd be really interested in how you'd make your own alignment diskette. Could you shed some light here? If this were in any sense straightforward, I'd have made my own long ago. I suppose I could fiddle with one of my PerSci drives, causing the head positioner to move as it would have to in order to produce the famous "cat's-eye" pattern on track 38, but I believe one would have to build special electronics to generate the sync reference burst or pulse (depending on whether you prefer DYSAN or SHUGART alignment diskettes) on tracks 1 and 76. Now, I've got no idea how to make the azimuthal adjustments precisely enough that I'd trust the results. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John B To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Erlacher >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:31 PM >Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. > > >>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you >>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with >>alignment. If it's damaging your diskette emulsion, it's likely that it's > > >No.. My "eating" implies I am sticking in original IBM software disks to old >IBM minis and writing over the data on them. :-( > >>either missing the headload pad, or the head penetration is misadjusted. I >>don't know what the procedure for head penetration adjustment on your >>particular drive is, but most drives seem to require a couple of feeler >>guages and some glyptol to make sure it doesn't move when you're done. >> >>Before I'll consider LENDING anyone one of my no longer readily available >>alignment diskettes, I want to be dead certain it won't be chewed up as >>might happen with the misadjusted head penetration or missing headload pad, >>or written on as might happen with an inappropriately set-up drive or >>controller. Even a $1k deposit won't ensure I get back a thoroughly >useable >>diskette, and I've not seen one for sale in over 15 years. > >The *moment* I get this drive up I'll be making IBM alignment disks for the >planet! > >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John B >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 5:38 PM >>Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> >> >>>Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask >>here >>>first.... >>> >>>I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested >a >>>half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally >>talks >>>to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a >>>while read a sector. >>> >>>I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. >>> >>>When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector >I >>>asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in >1974 >>>with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the >>>correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier. >>> >>>Anyone have one available? Please e-mail. >>> >>>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >>>diskettes from the early '70s >>> >>> >>>PDP-8 and other rare mini computers >>> >>>http://www.pdp8.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 19:32:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <000a01bf3ac1$8e8bf7e0$a677e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 29, 99 06:29:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/7d49b580/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 19:23:37 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <009101bf3ad1$883ae440$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> >> Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask here >> first.... >> >> I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a >> half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally talks >> to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a >> while read a sector. >> >> I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. >> >> When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I >> asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974 >> with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the >> correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier. >> >> Anyone have one available? Please e-mail. >> >> P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software >> diskettes from the early '70s > > >Do you mean it's physically damaging those disks? Or it's erasing them? >Or what? Becase if it is, then the last thing you should do is feed it an >alignment disk (for obvious reasons). > When I do a write the logic happily kills *needed* data on the disk. It does not erase them,.... it kind of writes what it wants to them. >Normally, of course, you get the system working well enough to >format/write/read a bulk-erased disk. It can do that however badly >aligned it is. And once it can do that it's safe to stick the alignment >disk in. But I assume that like many DEC and DEC-compatible systems, it >can't actually format a disk. That's right... this drive is pre '74.(an Orbis drive inside - serial #4) . No formatting possible.. all TTL.. but double buffered (really cool)... about 170 ttl chips in the interface alone (8 boards) This drive can be used on (according to the most recent manual): PDP-11/20 PDP-8,8/s,8I nova hp 2100 varian 620 or 70 family You just plug in one small interface board into the cage for each different mini. > >In that case, what I normally do is to put in a factory-formatted scratch >disk. Clip a 'scope to the outputs of the read amplifier and move the >head positioner slightly to peak the read amplitude. Sometimes it's >easier to find 2 points, one each side of the track, where the amplitude >has fallen off by the same amount and then to set it midway between them. > I did that (mentioned above).. I had the scope on the head... It did not need alignment but looks like it might need a few TTLs... >Once you've done that, the drive should be working well enough to test it >fully. I'd not trust the alignment for real data like that (although the >last 2 drives I did this way were within spec when checked with a catseye >disk). But at least you'll know if it's safe to use the alignment disk. > I was hoping to use an alignment disk as this drive is filled with TTLs and pots... The manual has many test points with pictures using the alignment disk. I have no idea if the IBM system diskettes I have actually have a good format on them (betting it) >Sorry, BTW, I don't have an 8" alignment disk. I wish I did... > >-tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 29 20:28:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <003f01bf3ada$ae9a69e0$0400c0a8@winbook> What you describe doesn't appear to me to be an alignment issue. Whether the drive is in or out of radial alignment, the appearance of the data will change as the relative position of head to track changes. I'd suspect index alignment if the thing doesn't find the first sector on a track. On the other hand, if it doesn't ever find a sector address mark, it's also possible that the controller has a hardware flaw. Have you tried this controller with a drive that works? Have you tried this drive with a computer that works? Since I'm not familiar with the hardware you're using, and since I'm not anywhere which would make sending you a candidate drive possible if I even have one, I can't suggest much. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 20:26:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <006201bf3acc$6ae69920$a677e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 29, 99 07:47:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/8f9ab8cd/attachment.ksh From stan at netcom.com Mon Nov 29 20:36:53 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Surplus paper tape punch/reader update References: <3842AE74.F85DD8D1@netcom.com> <011301bf3a9c$00ce6a20$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <38433845.67837745@netcom.com> Hello all, I went out to check on the paper tape punch/reader this afternoon, and the owner of the surplus yard told me he had sold it over the weekend (it must have been the same day I saw it). I'll jump on these things more quickly next time. Regards, Stan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 20:44:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <009101bf3ad1$883ae440$a677e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 29, 99 08:23:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/481a6092/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 19:48:04 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <00a201bf3ad4$f1aeb660$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> It isn't alignment as I can manually move the head very slightly back and >> forth which does affect the data coming into the controller assembly but >> does not help it find the actual sector... Therefore, hardware or an anlog >> adjustment >> >> I would like an alignment disk so I can use "their" tuning procedure to make >> this drive work quickly. It has a number of adjustments including : Clock, >> window, gap, etc... > > >Most alignment disks do not include such tests (I am not saying that the >IBM one you asked for doesn't). They're just raw drive alignement disks >with catseye patterns for aligning the radial position, an index timing >burst, etc. > I hear you. This particular drive claimed it did. >If you think there's an electronic problem then you don't really need an >aligment disk. Start with the spindle speed, which I assume is right >since it almost certainly uses a mains-powered induction motor. Still, it >can't hurt to check that the index pulses occur at the right frequency. > That's all working fine... It's controller has a serious status system in it where it monitors disk spindle speed, etc... >They'll be a master clock, probably also used for writing. Check this >with a 'scope or frequency counter. If it's incorrect, find out why. > One master clock.. 1Mhz, good.. A board dedicated to "data timing". >Then take a formatted disk (format one yourself on your old CP/M machine >if you have to ;-)). Read a sector continously. Display the off-disk data >on one trace of a 'scope and the read clock on another. Does the read >clock seem to be the right frequency? Is it locked wrt the data? If not, >look at that read PLL (or whatever it uses). > Good idea on the CPM unit. I rarely use/see one so I will format one and start that way. >Index timing is either very important (if, for example, the controller >expects to see an address mark as the first thing after an index pulse) >or not at all important at this stage. > Not there yet. >At this point you should at least be recovering data bits from the disk. >So if it still can't find a sector, find out why not. Can it not find an >address mark at all?. Or can it not find the header you're asking for. >This is likely to be a digital problem. As I don't have schematics for >this unit I can't comment any further. > It can't find a sector *most* of the time.. Once in a while I can get it to read and display a sector correctly... The rest of the time it is in an infinite loop. What bugs me is sometimes I can read a sector with a good CRC and the data is correct... probably *another* bad solder joint... this box has been filled with them so far. Thanks for the CP/M idea. >-tony > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 19:52:15 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <00ae01bf3ad5$874bcc80$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:48 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> I was hoping to use an alignment disk as this drive is filled with TTLs and > >Hmmm... As I mentioned in another message, _most_ alignment disks won't >really help you here. What you want is a 'diagnostic' disk -- one filled >with valid (and known/simple) data patters -- tracks of sectors of all >0's or all 1's, things like that. > >Fortunately, such a disk is fairly easy to make if you have any other >machine with 8" drives. I normally use one of my CP/M boxes for this. > >Then you can conitunally read sectors from the disk. Using a 'scope you >can see if the read PLL is locking -- is the read clock synchronised to >the off-disk data. Once you've got that, you use a logic analyser >(preferably) to look at the data stream and see if (for example) it >detects address marks correctly (these are quite easy to recognise with a >little practice. > >> pots... The manual has many test points with pictures using the alignment >> disk. I have no idea if the IBM system diskettes I have actually have a good >> format on them (betting it) > >My guess is that _any_ disk will do for setting up the PLL. For other >tests it helps if the data pattern is known and simple. > That's why I wanted one.. The manual actually calls it an alignment disk but your right.. it's really just a diagnostic disk. I am identifying major points on the schematics right now so I can quickly go through it with a scope... (I *really* dislike 8" floppies) >-tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 29 20:55:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <003f01bf3ada$ae9a69e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 29, 99 07:28:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/b99c798e/attachment.ksh From aek at spies.com Mon Nov 29 21:04:38 1999 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <199911300304.TAA06327@spies.com> "I wonder if it really is working most of the way (i.e. it can read ID marks and even data) but there's a problem getting that read data to the CPU (shift registers, bus drivers, etc)." Are you trying this on your 8/I or 8/S ? From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 29 20:26:14 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <00c801bf3ada$4691b920$a677e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >"I wonder if it really is working most of the way (i.e. it can read ID >marks and even data) but there's a problem getting that read data to the >CPU (shift registers, bus drivers, etc)." > >Are you trying this on your 8/I or 8/S ? The PDP-8i.. (it works the same on both units).. This drive has a dual buffer (50) and was made to be used on some of the slowest computers... The manual claims from high speed to "DC"... I have it on the 8i as I don't like to subject the 8/s to questionable hardware. > >>From memory, the Sykes interface is REALLY dumb. An 8/S might be too slow >to handle the data rates.. > It is... *really* dumb... Its got a 2 sector buffer option(claims it can do 2 things at the same time with the buffers) so I got a bigger really dumb controller. It's search algorithm is really funny too: Read Sector <------------- If requested Sector <> address then | If CRC not okay then ---------------------| (you get the idea.. and infinite loop for most errors) john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From a2k at one.net Mon Nov 29 22:07:33 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: C-64 Comms program Message-ID: Hello, I have a lovely C-64 with 1541 disk drive and original Commodore 300 baud modem.. but no software for the modem. Is anybody willing to make me a copy of some disk with the Comms program on it? Basic utilities would also be appreciated. I've considered making a cable to write with the drive on my linux box but it's just not worth the effort. Thanks, Kevin From ken_g at MailAndNews.com Mon Nov 29 22:19:15 1999 From: ken_g at MailAndNews.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: C-64 Comms program Message-ID: <38440B22@MailAndNews.com> Kevin, I still have my C-64 and 300 baud modem. I know I have the Comms program somewhere. I'll search for it and get back with you. Ken >===== Original Message From classiccmp@u.washington.edu ===== >Hello, > >I have a lovely C-64 with 1541 disk drive and original Commodore 300 baud >modem.. but no software for the modem. Is anybody willing to make me a >copy of some disk with the Comms program on it? Basic utilities would also >be appreciated. I've considered making a cable to write with the drive on >my linux box but it's just not worth the effort. > >Thanks, >Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 00:02:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <006701bf3af8$7c641f20$0400c0a8@winbook> please see comments embedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> It isn't alignment as I can manually move the head very slightly back and >> forth which does affect the data coming into the controller assembly but >> does not help it find the actual sector... Therefore, hardware or an anlog >> adjustment >> >> I would like an alignment disk so I can use "their" tuning procedure to make >> this drive work quickly. It has a number of adjustments including : Clock, >> window, gap, etc... > These are not the usual things for which you'd want an alignment diskette. > >Most alignment disks do not include such tests (I am not saying that the >IBM one you asked for doesn't). They're just raw drive alignement disks >with catseye patterns for aligning the radial position, an index timing >burst, etc. > >If you think there's an electronic problem then you don't really need an >aligment disk. Start with the spindle speed, which I assume is right >since it almost certainly uses a mains-powered induction motor. Still, it >can't hurt to check that the index pulses occur at the right frequency. > >They'll be a master clock, probably also used for writing. Check this >with a 'scope or frequency counter. If it's incorrect, find out why. > Generally, there isn't a master clock. Among the drives I've been working on over the past months, none had onboard oscillators with the exception of the microprocessor-controlled Mitsubishi. That's why there are one-shots and the like. The writing is accomplished by using both outputs from a flipflop which is toggled by every positive edge on the data stream which is generated on the controller. > >Then take a formatted disk (format one yourself on your old CP/M machine >if you have to ;-)). Read a sector continously. Display the off-disk data >on one trace of a 'scope and the read clock on another. Does the read >clock seem to be the right frequency? Is it locked wrt the data? If not, >look at that read PLL (or whatever it uses). > Again, most drives don't have PLL's on them, but rather leave that to the controller. It does appear that this drive and controller may not be entirely separate. The adjustments for "window" and "gap" do sound like they are just trims on a one-shot, though. I've seen adjustments like that on old hard disks. As you may recall, almost all the early FDD's had FM clock/data separation on board. This drive is probably no exception. > >Index timing is either very important (if, for example, the controller >expects to see an address mark as the first thing after an index pulse) >or not at all important at this stage. > >At this point you should at least be recovering data bits from the disk. >So if it still can't find a sector, find out why not. Can it not find an >address mark at all?. Or can it not find the header you're asking for. >This is likely to be a digital problem. As I don't have schematics for >this unit I can't comment any further. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 00:05:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <007a01bf3af8$db3be820$0400c0a8@winbook> I've got one of these diagnostic diskettes, though I was never able to find software suitable for using one with 8" drives. If there's anyone out there who can tell me where I can beg/borrow/steal it, I'd do that. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> I was hoping to use an alignment disk as this drive is filled with TTLs and > >Hmmm... As I mentioned in another message, _most_ alignment disks won't >really help you here. What you want is a 'diagnostic' disk -- one filled >with valid (and known/simple) data patters -- tracks of sectors of all >0's or all 1's, things like that. > >Fortunately, such a disk is fairly easy to make if you have any other >machine with 8" drives. I normally use one of my CP/M boxes for this. > >Then you can conitunally read sectors from the disk. Using a 'scope you >can see if the read PLL is locking -- is the read clock synchronised to >the off-disk data. Once you've got that, you use a logic analyser >(preferably) to look at the data stream and see if (for example) it >detects address marks correctly (these are quite easy to recognise with a >little practice. > >> pots... The manual has many test points with pictures using the alignment >> disk. I have no idea if the IBM system diskettes I have actually have a good >> format on them (betting it) > >My guess is that _any_ disk will do for setting up the PLL. For other >tests it helps if the data pattern is known and simple. > >-tony > From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 29 23:34:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <000a01bf3ac1$8e8bf7e0$a677e2d1@default> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, John B wrote: > I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a > half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally talks > to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a > while read a sector. > > I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy. John, I have a couple of Dymek Alignment Diskettes - which I suspect are the equivalent of the Shugart SA 120-1 Alignment Diskette. The Dymeks are punched to be used as either SS or DS disks. I have not used these, so how they are actually set up is supposition on my part. I could also supply you with several SSSD formatted disks including one/some with tracks filled with 1's and 0's as recommended by Tony. Let me know if any of this is of interest. - don From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 29 23:40:27 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <002301bf3ad5$46b252c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got hundreds of diskettes over 20 years old, and NONE have been losing > emulsion. I've had some of the jackets crack, and I've had some of the ones > which have gotten wet along the way stick in their jackets so they wouldn't > rotate, but the emulsion on those which would rotate, I've never had flaking > of the emulsion. Maybe that's because it's really dry here in Denver. Maybe, but I doubt it. The only diskettes that I have ever had any real problem with were a batch of 8" Verbatim's that had a 'lubricating' coating to reduce head wear. I quickly - but not quickly enough - learned to make a full copy of the diskette before attempting to off load individual files. Unfortunately, before the lesson sunk in I had destroyed a few directory tracks! > If you clean your disk heads from time to time, you'll probably not build up > enough glutch to damage a diskette. And that can be really often! But the full copy is the way to go. - don > Dick > From van at wired.com Tue Nov 30 07:25:08 1999 From: van at wired.com (van burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Porn In-Reply-To: <002901bf3b33$a4b2dee0$90f438cb@SLIPSTICK> Message-ID: Hello. I hope nobody is offended by this request, but I'm desperately trying to find images from the original MacPlaymate and Virtual Valerie games for inclusion in a sidebar on the history of graphic content in videogames to be published in my forthcoming book, Supercade: Context and Aesthetics of the Videogame Age. What I really need are screenshots from either the main title screen or some equally inspiring frame of content... or a scan of the packaging. Any of you that have may have the program with a system capable of running it that could possibly execute any of the above tasks would be begged for their assistance... Please email privately. xoxo van *********************************************************************** S U P E R C A D E context and aesthetics of the videogame age 1971-1984 (The MIT Press) by Van Burnham (van@supercade.com) "The first book to illustrate and document the history, legacy, and visual language of the videogame phenomenon..." ________________________ http://www.supercade.com CONTACT - 355 Bryant Street Suite #106, San Francisco, California 94107 *********************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1336 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/c8b5523d/attachment.bin From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 30 08:04:40 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: C-64 Comms program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991130080440.0100e150@pc> At 11:07 PM 11/29/99 -0500, LordTyran wrote: >I have a lovely C-64 with 1541 disk drive and original Commodore 300 baud >modem.. but no software for the modem. > I've considered making a cable to write with the drive on >my linux box but it's just not worth the effort. No, it would be worth the effort to make the cable that connects the 1541 to your PC. :-) "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you show a man the Internet, he won't bother you for a few weeks." - John From rka at dadco.net Tue Nov 30 10:08:44 1999 From: rka at dadco.net (Robert K. Adsit) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas Message-ID: Anything still around? I'm interested in the Texas Instruments Omni 800 printer. Robert K. Adsit I.T. Manager, DADCO, Inc. rka@dadco.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/d9b2b747/attachment.html From dmb at itasoftware.com Tue Nov 30 11:46:42 1999 From: dmb at itasoftware.com (Dave Baggett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Looking for Heath H89 software and some advice Message-ID: <006101bf3b5a$de8d4980$0903a8c0@itasoftware.com> I just got two Heath H89's to replace the one my parents took to the dump 10 years ago while I was away at college. Both these machines seem to work fine -- they will boot CP/M and I can run programs, etc. One of them is in absolute mint condition -- a real beauty. However, the vast majority of the disks I have (circa 1979) are HDOS disks. I would like to be able to read these disks and use the software (e.g., Walt Bilofsky's C compiler), but I can't get any of my bootable HDOS disks to boot. Would anyone be willing to make me a bootable HDOS disk and mail it to me? If so, I would greatly appreciate it. Let me know by email (dmb@ai.mit.edu) if you would be willing to volunteer. :) I'm also looking for any of Evryware's interactive fiction (text adventure) games for the H89. They had a whole series of these games (starting with "A Remarkable Experience") and I would like to resurrect them by porting them to a modern platform. (Yes, there are still people who like text adventures. See the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.int-fiction for ample evidence of this!) Back in 1994, I ported Crowther & Woods' Adventure from the original FORTRAN source (for PDP-10, I believe) to an object oriented language called TADS that was developed specifically for text adventures. This port was quite popular with the rec.arts.int-fiction crowd, and was itself ported to various other platforms, including Infocom's Z-Machine. I actually contacted one of the Evryware founders -- they're still making games -- but they said they don't have any copies of their H89 stuff anymore. So if anyone has them and would be willing to furnish copies, please let me know. Finally, does anyone know if it's possible to read/write H89 disks in a PC? I mean, I know that the disk format is radically different, but are PC 5 1/4" drives even physically capable of doing this? It would be very nice to have a PC-based program that could create H89 disks from disk images, and I'd love to write one, but frankly I'm a software guy and have no clue about the hardware side of floppy disk formats. If anyone has any sage advice, I'd be much obliged. Dave Baggett dmb@ai.mit.edu From tom at automatedtech.com Tue Nov 30 11:58:48 1999 From: tom at automatedtech.com (Tom Hickerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: TI Silent 700 Message-ID: <000101bf3b5c$8de21fe0$2f64a8c0@atip3> I'm working with a device which has poor documentation but it says the printer port is compatible with a TI Silent 700. Do you know what baud rate, character length and parity the Silent 700 used ? Tom Hickerson tom@automatedtech.com From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Nov 30 12:01:06 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: OT: Swords (was: Re: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <80256839.00627D58.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >>>> >Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern >>>>reproductions. To >>>> >the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if >>>>they were >>>> >correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't. >>>> > >>>> >> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese >>>>sword for >>>> >> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box >>>> >>>> This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major >>>> ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan. >>> >>>One wonders where your friend got the thing. I was under the impression >>>they're >>>illegal to export from Japan. (not sure where I got that impression though) >> >>Apparently a lot of swords were lost in WWII and found thier way to the US. >>The Japanese families that lost these swords are willing to pay big bucks >>for them if they can be found. > > Japanese I believe sometimes would "surrender" their swords as a formal > gesture. GIs would also rob bodies, etc. Getting them back to Japan is a > fair sized industry. Wow! Quite a thread for one so far off topic. In no particular order: At the surrender at the end of WWII, swords were formally handed over by commanding officers (of ships etc.) as a gesture of surrender. This is a western custom as well as (rather than?) a Japanese one. Seems strange that they handed over valuable antiques, but it is the sort of extravagant gesture that goes with a culture that commits ritual suicide... I will admit to having two swords, but I am not a collector. One is a modern fencing foil with a rubber tip. The other, that I think of as "my sword" (even though my brother has an interest in it) is a bit more interesting. It is the sort of sword that officers in the Royal Navy wore with dress uniforms up to about 1914 (when the design changed slightly). It belonged to my grandfather, so I assume he was commissioned as a midshipman (US: ensign) at age 16 (in 1913). He may have upgraded later to the newer design, but if so, this went to the bottom of the sea with him in 1944. The sword was made by Wilkinson (lately of razor blade fame but in his time the UK's leading sword manufacturer) and sold by Gieves (a well known supplier of uniforms, known in the services as Thieves), and it bears the number (which may be a serial number) 56500. The test of such a sword was not whether a handkerchief would fall in two pieces if dropped on the blade ;-) - in fact, mine has never been sharpened - but whether you could bend the blade so that the tip would touch the forte just below the hilt. Swords that passed would have a "proof mark" set into the blade at that point. Wilkinsons reps used to demonstrate this, but it was said that Gieves' swords made by anyone else, although they bore the proof mark, would be damaged if you tried it... My sword is somewhat corroded. I got someone to clean off the worst of the rust; he cleaned of "as much as he dared", which unfortunately reduced the clarity of the designs etched into the blade, so this may have been a mistake. Nonetheless, for such a heavy piece of iron (though not relative to my computer collection!) it is amazingly well balanced. I wouldn't have any difficulty wielding it in a fight, even though the grip is a bit too small for me. FWIW I am told that swords should be preserved with suitable grease. Suitable = hydrophobic. In particular, lube oil / axle grease etc. are NOT suitable. Petroleum jelly is recommended; I have heard of olive oil being used; and I imagine silicone grease and some of the water displacing penetrating oils would also work. FWI also W I have some small skill in European fencing (although I haven't done any for a few years now), but have never studied Kendo... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 30 12:13:27 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Looking for Heath H89 software and some advice In-Reply-To: <006101bf3b5a$de8d4980$0903a8c0@itasoftware.com> Message-ID: <199911301813.KAA14943@civic.hal.com> "Dave Baggett" wrote: > However, the vast majority of the disks I have (circa 1979) > are HDOS disks. I would like to be able to read these > disks and use the software (e.g., Walt Bilofsky's C > compiler), but I can't get any of my bootable HDOS > disks to boot. Would anyone be willing to make me a > bootable HDOS disk and mail it to me? If so, I would greatly > appreciate it. Let me know by email (dmb@ai.mit.edu) if you > would be willing to volunteer. :) Hi Dave Before anyone can help you, you need to find out if the drive is soft or hard sectored. The soft sectored disk can be read on many of the PC controllers but the hard sectored can't. To write on a soft sectored disk, you'll need one of the older 360K drives because the track width is too small on the 1.2M. You can tell if it has soft sectored disk by rotating the floppy in the jacket. Soft sectored will have only one hole in the media per revolution. Hard sectored will have 11 holes. Compare the HDOS disk to the CPM disk and make sure they are the same. If the machine has a soft sectored controller, you may need to find a hard sectored controller to read the files. Dwight From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 30 13:14:32 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: TI Silent 700 References: <000101bf3b5c$8de21fe0$2f64a8c0@atip3> Message-ID: <38442218.8667E5BA@mainecoon.com> Tom Hickerson wrote: [snip] > Do you know > what baud rate, character length > and parity the Silent 700 used ? I recall using one at 300/8/none. For some reason I seem to recall some of these things being configurable, possibly with switches on the edge of one of the cards. Of course it's been more than twenty years since I looked at one, so this could be a complete fabrication of my failing memory... Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pbboy at mindspring.com Tue Nov 30 14:02:17 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: TI Silent 700 References: <000101bf3b5c$8de21fe0$2f64a8c0@atip3> Message-ID: <38442D49.51E2EA76@mindspring.com> Baud rate is anywhere from 110 to 9600 (a note in the manual states that actual throughput is limited to 240 characters per second), 300 maximum on the acoustic coupler (model 765). Parity is even, odd or mark. It uses ASCII, CCITT; "seven-level, 11 bits per character including parity, start, and two stop bits at 10 characters per second (110 baud); 10 bits per character, including one stop bit at speeds above 10 characters per second." Straight from the manual of the 763/765 Memory Terminals. robert Tom Hickerson wrote: > I'm working with a device which has > poor documentation but it says the > printer port is compatible with > a TI Silent 700. Do you know > what baud rate, character length > and parity the Silent 700 used ? > > Tom Hickerson > tom@automatedtech.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 30 16:58:01 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: IGS Company Confidental manual Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991130165801.22077142@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi to all you DEC-heads! I recently picked up a big pile of DEC manuals. One of the things that I found among them is a manual for IGOR (Interactive Graphic Operating Resource) Internal Operations. It was published by Interactive Graphic Systems in 1981 and is marked "Company Confidental". This is almost certainly for use on a VAX. Does anyone know weather IGS or IGOR is still around? Any thoughts about weather I should destroy this manual, keep it, sell it or ? Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 30 13:11:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <00a201bf3ad4$f1aeb660$a677e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 29, 99 08:48:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/83da8f26/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 30 13:16:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <00c801bf3ada$4691b920$a677e2d1@default> from "John B" at Nov 29, 99 09:26:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 895 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/97658248/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 30 13:23:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. In-Reply-To: <006701bf3af8$7c641f20$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 29, 99 11:02:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 998 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/24465c23/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 30 13:34:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Looking for Heath H89 software and some advice In-Reply-To: <006101bf3b5a$de8d4980$0903a8c0@itasoftware.com> from "Dave Baggett" at Nov 30, 99 09:46:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/562225f0/attachment.ksh From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Nov 30 15:13:26 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:51 2005 Subject: Need DOS 3.3 to restore a PC based instrument References: <199911281720.SAA02744@dns.cyberlink.ch> <38416932.911178C5@netcom.com> Message-ID: <38443DF6.72000087@wxs.nl> Did you try the "setver.exe" utility on the .exe files of that application It kinda cheats the apps to think that it is running an older version of DOS. Sipke de Wal Stan Perkins wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have just acquired a PC-based instrument. It's a Model DTA 8850 > Digital Timing Analyzer, made in 1989 by a company called International > Test Instruments, Inc. in Irvine, CA. Unfortunately, they seem to be out > of business. > > The machine is based on a PC architecture, with the specialized signal > conditioning circuitry on a backplane. It has some sort of non-volatile > electronic disk as the C drive. I was able to determine that the > operating system is DOS 3.3, but there is something munged about it, > because it won't run the application software for the instrument. I can > boot the instrument from a floppy, but the only version of DOS I have is > 6.22, and the instrument gives "Incorrect DOS Version" error messages > when I run the application software (but it does run). > > I would like to get a copy of DOS 3.3 to restore this machine to its > original state. Also, does anyone know anything about International Test > Instruments, or (fingers crossed) have a manual or other information > about this machine? > > Thanks in advance, > Stan From dirtworks at globalnetisp.net Tue Nov 30 15:13:39 1999 From: dirtworks at globalnetisp.net (johnmeshna) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Meshna Message-ID: <38443E02.C299B754@globalnetisp.net> Hi, My name is John Meshna. The son of the late John J. Meshn Jr., the Surplus mogel. I saw your post. I'm flattered that my father's memory lives on. We closed the company around 1988. He died in 1982. Thanks for keeping his memory alive. John > Home | Collection > > > > Software | Mailing Lists > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] > > Re: Keyboards > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > * Subject: Re: Keyboards > * From: Frank McConnell > * Date: 06 Dec 1998 15:57:48 -0800 > * In-Reply-To: Stephen Dauphin's message of Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:13:21 -0500 (EST) > * References: > * Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > * Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Stephen Dauphin writes: > > On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some > > sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering if > > someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns > > up nothing. > > Here's info from one of their 1988 catalogs: > > John J. Meshna Jr., Inc. > 19 Allerton Street > Lynn, MA 01904 > Tel: (617) 595-2275 > > -Frank McConnell > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * References: > o Re: Keyboards > + From: Stephen Dauphin > > * Prev by Date: Scanning Fiche > * Next by Date: Re: x86 OS's > * Prev by thread: Re: Keyboards > * Next by thread: Re: Keyboards > * Index(es): > o Date > o Thread > > > > > Created by: Kevan Heydon on Monday, 07-Dec-1998 15:10:16 PST -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991130/f15be916/homepage.html From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Nov 30 15:17:51 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) References: <199911281924.OAA08537@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38443EFF.F6776057@wxs.nl> Give the machine needs doesn't need a huge amount of current you can make your own 3-phase power from joining 3-groups in your home/workplace. You'llbe limited by the max current the fuses of that group can handle. And you'll need to find out the live wires of those groups. Check a handbook on the subject. Megan wrote: > > >IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized > >disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to > >retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't > >it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we > >hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's > >intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a > >couple of years of when it was developed? > > Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the > DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives. > They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a > close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the > drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is > a very large paper-weight. > > I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but > we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have. > > We have, however, been getting all the data off the tapes so as not > to lose it. > > It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent > tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to > have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine, > and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks... > > (anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 15:41:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <001401bf3b7b$c6515b60$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded remarks below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 2:16 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> It's search algorithm is really funny too: >> >> Read Sector <------------- >> If requested Sector <> address then | >> If CRC not okay then ---------------------| >> It's not as odd as you may think. The CRC is for the ID field, so it's got to keep trying to read the ID before it can determine whether it should read the following data field. The controller doesn't have a fixed number of retries, since the infinite loop, in the designers' opinion, allowed you to poke around with your instruments looking for the problem, and is probably as good as any other alternative. Remember, there's a CRC field after the ID field, AND one after the data field. They both must pass check before you get a valid sector. This behavior is, however, quite consistent with a misadjusted PLL, or whatever other mechanism they're using to extract the clock e.g. one-shots. If someone has fiddled with the pots on the device, all bets are off as to its ability to lock on the data. Since the data is synchronized differently on every sector, it should be easy enough to determine whether lock occurs just by triggering on the data stream while observing the PLL's oscillator. Each sector should show a discrete and easily visible acquisition window. Of course, that won't be the case with a naked but formatted diskette, since its data and ID fields were written in one fell swoop, with no asynchronism between sectors. However, if you format a new diskette on some OTHER and WORKING compatible machine, writing a file to it will be a sector-by-sector operation which will ostensibly have at least a short transient of phase change reflecting the difference in phase between the relative position of the diskette during formatting and during writing not to mention the minor speed variations. In any case, you should, with your oscilloscope set up properly, be able to watch a consisten acquisition of the data for each sector. If you're not getting that, which is what I suspect, then your error lies in that, the most basic task of a disk interface, without which NOTHING else having to do with data transfer will work properly. >> (you get the idea.. and infinite loop for most errors) > >Well, assuming it's getting into that loop, there's something to look at. >Does it find a sector address? Does it match (and should it match -- >don't overlook a possible comparator problem). Does the CRC match? Should >it? (again, don't overlook a possible problem with the logic here). > >Basically, you're in a loop (presumably stuck in some state(s) of a state >machine). You should be thinking about the following : > >What signals can get it out of those states? >Are they ever asserted? > >What events would cause them to be asserted? >Do those events ever occur? >What about the logic that detects said events and turns them into signals? > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 15:49:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. Message-ID: <002a01bf3b7c$bd97f820$0400c0a8@winbook> If the drive is "intelligent" enough to perform writes, i.e. if it has a local data buffer, then it's likely to have a master oscillator. Since it has adjustments for "window" (probably related to FM clock recovery) and "gap" probably limiting the write-turn-on/off gap lengths, i.e. the capture window, allowing it to determine when it failed to "see" and address mark, I'd suspect that those have gotten tweaked out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk. >> >They'll be a master clock, probably also used for writing. Check this >> >with a 'scope or frequency counter. If it's incorrect, find out why. >> > >> >> Generally, there isn't a master clock. Among the drives I've been working > >Not on a raw drive, sure. But this is a drive/controller combination, and >it appears that at least some faults are in the controller section. > >Somebody's going to prove me wrong, but I've never seen a _controller_ >without some kind of master clock. > >> on over the past months, none had onboard oscillators with the exception of >> the microprocessor-controlled Mitsubishi. That's why there are one-shots >> and the like. The writing is accomplished by using both outputs from a >> flipflop which is toggled by every positive edge on the data stream which is >> generated on the controller. >> > >Yep, sure for a plain drive.... >[And I agree with the PLL comments that I've deleted -- very few _drives_ >have a clock recovery PLL, but a lot of controllers do!] > >-tony > From dogas at leading.net Tue Nov 30 16:11:11 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... Message-ID: <01bf3b7f$d2c9f740$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Vaxen have not been my gig but today I found several books. VAX Architecture Reference Manual,VAXclusters, Computer Programming and Architecture: The VAX-11, A Gentle Introduction to the VAX System, The VAX Book, VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures, and Introduction toVAX/VMS. This can only mean one thing. ;) Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I know what a real operating system is. Alas. So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? Wait... Actually, if someone wants to save me before heading down this *enticing* path. I'll trade all of the listed books for a 'First Book ok Kim' Cheers all, - Mike: dogas@leading.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 30 16:15:32 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... References: <01bf3b7f$d2c9f740$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <9911301716350S.19263@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Mike wrote: >Vaxen have not been my gig but today I found several books. VAX >Architecture Reference Manual,VAXclusters, Computer Programming and >Architecture: The VAX-11, A Gentle Introduction to the VAX System, The VAX >Book, VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures, and Introduction toVAX/VMS. >This can only mean one thing. ;) > >Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I >know what a real operating system is. Alas. Sweet, eh? I like it too. Very nice. >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? >Wait... MicroVAX 2000. Slow by today's standards, but the size of a lunchbox and *very* cheap. -Dave McGuire From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 30 16:23:13 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <01bf3b7f$d2c9f740$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> from "Mike" at Nov 30, 1999 05:11:11 PM Message-ID: <199911302223.PAA30622@calico.litterbox.com> > > Vaxen have not been my gig but today I found several books. VAX > Architecture Reference Manual,VAXclusters, Computer Programming and > Architecture: The VAX-11, A Gentle Introduction to the VAX System, The VAX > Book, VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures, and Introduction toVAX/VMS. > This can only mean one thing. ;) > > Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I > know what a real operating system is. Alas. > > So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? I got mine (a vaxstation 3100) from Tim Shoppa on this list. He made me a good deal. Don't know if he has more though. It's a sweet little machine, runs the hobbiest distribution of VMS nicely. (and it's twice as powerful as the 11/750 I learned most of my computer science on. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 30 16:24:50 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <9911301716350S.19263@vault.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 30, 1999 05:15:32 PM Message-ID: <199911302224.PAA30635@calico.litterbox.com> > > On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Mike wrote: > >Vaxen have not been my gig but today I found several books. VAX > >Architecture Reference Manual,VAXclusters, Computer Programming and > >Architecture: The VAX-11, A Gentle Introduction to the VAX System, The VAX > >Book, VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures, and Introduction toVAX/VMS. > >This can only mean one thing. ;) > > > >Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I > >know what a real operating system is. Alas. > > Sweet, eh? I like it too. Very nice. > > >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? > >Wait... > > MicroVAX 2000. Slow by today's standards, but the size of a lunchbox and > *very* cheap. > > -Dave McGuire There are some substantial disadvantages to the 2000s. The biggest is they want MFM disks, which are hard to find these days. 3100s are SCSI machines. Er. Let me qualify that and say VaxStation 2000s want MFM drives. Don't know about MicroVax 2000s. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 30 16:33:33 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... Message-ID: <991130173333.2020026d@trailing-edge.com> >Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I >know what a real operating system is. Alas. > >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? The smallest machine that'll run VMS is the "Tadpole" laptop, an Alpha. You won't find them for free in junkpiles yet, at least! They're highly in demand by those who want to demo Alpha/VMS software at trade shows, customer sites, etc. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 30 15:37:18 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Fujitsu Update Message-ID: <00f101bf3b7b$13c72e20$3176e2d1@default> I made a full list and here it is (with a picture of the system): F6470A (2) - tape cartridge system, 16 carts @ 400MB each M770 - main supercomputer(s) (looks like 4 cabinets), at least 100MB RAM, MSP/EX , and XSP operating system (other operating systems as well). No idea of speed, bus width, anything else... I do know both mainframes) were connected together through a high speed data channel. There seems to be some SUN 4-490 front-end computers. No idea on any more than that.-- they look nice. F1751E (2 of them) - 60? tapes X 400MB = huge tape cartridge unit. Total storage ???? There are also some memory expanders?? a high speed 2000?LPM printer, disk RAID arrays (5GB each). I have found a few sites still using this supercomputer, one as a meteorological satellite data processing system, an engineering lab,.... Here is a picture of what the system looks like (I will put up real pictures soon): http://www.pdp8.com/fujitsu.gif The vax 6000 has: RA81 - 3 units RA81,RA82,RA82 TA81,TU81E HSC 50-AA Vax 6000-610 SA600 HSC-50 and.... 1 pallet of power cords and system cables. 1 Omnigraphic Recorder. - 11 X 17" XY chart recorder. 2000CE From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 30 16:42:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <01bf3b7f$d2c9f740$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: >Vaxen have not been my gig but today I found several books. VAX >Architecture Reference Manual,VAXclusters, Computer Programming and >Architecture: The VAX-11, A Gentle Introduction to the VAX System, The VAX >Book, VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures, and Introduction toVAX/VMS. >This can only mean one thing. ;) > >Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I >know what a real operating system is. Alas. > >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? >Wait... > >Actually, if someone wants to save me before heading down this *enticing* >path. I'll trade all of the listed books for a 'First Book ok Kim' > >Cheers all, >- Mike: dogas@leading.net VMS ROCKS! Go with one of the following VAXstation 3100, VAXstation 4000 or some kind of Alpha. The lowend VS3100's are dirt cheap, and you can use a PC as a terminal. Both VAXstation 3100's and VAXstation 4000's are about the size of a desktop PC, some are smaller. And with the possible exception of one or two models of VS3100 they uses SCSI disks. Even a lowend Alpha can be gotten pretty cheap these days (say a DEC 3000/300LX). Here are some web sites: http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ <- Documentation http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html <- OpenVMS Hobbyist Program Of course once you get your first VMS box up, you'll need a second so you can cluster them :^) But for your first system you really want SCSI since it makes things easier. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue Nov 30 16:45:35 1999 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <01bf3b7f$d2c9f740$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Mike wrote: > Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I > know what a real operating system is. Alas. No, no, no ... if you want to know what a real operating system is, you need to read the Lions book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573980137). ;-) I shouldn't laugh, I actually have copies of VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures for V3.x and V4.x, along with a bunch of other VMS-related material. My first serious job was doing systems programming on a 780 running VMS V3.5 - it really is a nice environment for doing programming, even if some of the coolest stuff was undocumented (like class and port drivers - not documented even in Internals and Data Structures for V3, but I think they were documented later - and unfortunately, what I was tasked to work on at the time....). Couldn't stand DCL as a command language, though.... > Actually, if someone wants to save me before heading down this *enticing* > path. I'll trade all of the listed books for a 'First Book ok Kim' Hmmm ... you'll have to find something else to trade (I have all the VAX books I could ever want in one lifetime, thank you very much... ;-) ), but I'm sure I could part with my copy of "The First Book of KIM"; haven't looked at it in at least 12 years.... I'll start looking for it tonight, not sure I even still know where it is .... --Pat. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 30 17:09:35 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <991130173333.2020026d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Nov 30, 1999 05:33:33 PM Message-ID: <199911302309.PAA16282@shell1.aracnet.com> > The smallest machine that'll run VMS is the "Tadpole" laptop, an Alpha. > > You won't find them for free in junkpiles yet, at least! They're highly > in demand by those who want to demo Alpha/VMS software at trade shows, > customer sites, etc. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Where do you find them, and at what cost? I've got a SparcBook 3GS, but what I'd really like is an AlphaBook. I've never seen one for sale. Zane From rcini at msn.com Tue Nov 30 17:38:25 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Looking for...PC/104 Ethernet board Message-ID: <000701bf3b8c$1c55aba0$01c8a8c0@office1> Hello, all: Well, my next project is an embedded Web server project for my to-be-built home weather station. I got myself the nice 486 SBC from BG Micro, but it doesn't have an Ethernet interface. So...I need a PC/104 Ethernet board. I'm looking for a used one, so long as it has drivers. Any pointers?? Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Nov 30 17:42:47 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... DCL References: Message-ID: <384460F7.A1802C6B@banet.net> Pat Barron wrote: >. Couldn't stand DCL as a command language, > though.... Jeeez! As a former operator, The only thing friendlier that I ever ran into was TOPS-20, with it's [ESC] command completion feature. At least with DCL lexical functions and library calls, you didn't need a lot of training to do some simple programming, and "backup" meant just that.. Will From jallain at databaseamerica.com Tue Nov 30 17:52:13 1999 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: Miscell, boards: WICAT, Wang; Disks. In-Reply-To: <00f101bf3b7b$13c72e20$3176e2d1@default> Message-ID: <000401bf3b8d$ed460600$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Hi, After the last purge my company had I saved a few things that the listers might like . . . I don't Have to get rid of anything but wouild like to make some space. Z80 architecture CPU boards from a Wang VS-90. Memory boards from the abovementioned. These are about 18" square and have dozens of memory chips on them. It's a nice neat arrayed layout with a suport backbone going down the middle. Kinda looks like an EPROM magnified 10,000 times. I'm keeping one for a wall hanging but don't need the rest. Disk drives: Both these units include on-board diagnostic control panels and displays. I've got a manual for the Fujitsu that can be copied. Control Data 94041211 FSD 340 MByte AKA an PA561M This is the smallest "Big Iron" drive I've found. Easily carried at about 60 lbs. Looks great opened up. About 10" platters. >>>> Anybody know more about these? <<<< Fujitsu M2351A/AF 474.2 MByte About twice the size of the FSD. About 12" enclosed platters. Same model used by some CAD companies to make single rack systems in ~1980. With the cover off it looks like a Harley Davidson engine. (see more courtesy of: http://www.dcponline.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=M2351A&variation=&aitem=3 4&mitem=90 Everything above is available in >1 quantities. - - - This I'm still playing with but if someone feels strongly about it I'll give it to 'em (after just a little more play time though ). The actual WICAT. M68000 architecture mini. It has some of the look and feel of VAX/VMS at about 1/2 the complexity. (Instead of SHO DEV you might say SHOD for example). Cool On-line help and boots very fast. Nice light weight backplane enclosure. Full control over terminals, tapes, disks, etc. Manuals come with it. Contains a type of programming system that I'll learn more about shortly. - - - Enjoy. If anyone shows an interest I'll hold items for you up to and beyond Christmas. John A. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 30 17:54:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:52 2005 Subject: dammit... Message-ID: <199911302354.SAA28184@world.std.com> <> >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? <> >Wait... <> <> MicroVAX 2000. Slow by today's standards, but the size of a lunchbox a <> *very* cheap. <> <> -Dave McGuire Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone? Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc? Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From mallison at konnections.com Tue Nov 30 18:53:22 1999 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Teleco Question... Message-ID: <001401bf3b96$77fbff40$b77a3fd1@oemcomputer> Rather than spinning this on this list. Why not check out the 2600 web sight. I don't know what it is, maybe www.2600.com. They'll know all these answers and it will be on topic for them... -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 5:53 PM Subject: Teleco Question... >Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone? > >Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc? > >Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC? >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 30 19:05:02 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <199911302354.SAA28466@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 30, 1999 06:54:38 PM Message-ID: <199912010105.RAA19488@shell1.aracnet.com> > > ALL MV/VS3100s are SCSI some may have the TLZ30 tape or RX23 floppy in them. > Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn that I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast. One with a TLZ30 (Tape drive for TK50's) or a CD-ROM would be nice. Mine has the RX23, and I quite honestly have no idea what use the floppy drive is. Zane From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 30 19:18:36 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: dammit... Message-ID: <991130201836.2020026d@trailing-edge.com> >> ALL MV/VS3100s are SCSI some may have the TLZ30 tape or RX23 floppy in them. >> >Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn that >I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast. Yes, the first 3100's had MFM controllers, and half-height MFM drives (RD31, RD32) in them. They also had a 34-pin floppy interface to a non-SCSI RX23. Then came models that had *both* MFM and SCSI interfaces. The latest ones had two SCSI interfaces, and used a SCSI-fied RX23 in them. >One with a TLZ30 (Tape drive for TK50's) or a CD-ROM would be nice. Mine >has the RX23, and I quite honestly have no idea what use the floppy drive >is. True, the RX23 doesn't have a lot of use. You can't even (officially) build a standalone backup kit on it. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 30 19:22:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <199911302354.SAA28466@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991130172138.040a92e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> ><> >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms? ><> >Wait... I'm starting to grow a bit fond of the VAX 4000/VLC. Its an extremely compact VAX, perhaps even a bit smaller than the Tadpole except that doesn't include the display... --Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 30 19:33:11 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Tractor & Computer storage... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991125090312.010c7600@pc> References: <003f01bf3725$2c2800c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991130203311.009eaba0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer >across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling >his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines. Having 6 tractors & a classic pickup (well, next year... it's a '75) myself, I understand the wherewithal of "storage space"... I've been building a lot of it this fall, mainly so I can move most of my smaller tractors out of my main garage, so I can work on some of the tractors & some of my computers over the winter... On the "breaking of hearts" comment, tho: Just because I can't do anything about starvation in Africa doesn't mean that my heart doesn't break over it. Just because I can't ship 40 mini's from Montreal doesn't mean that my heart doesn't break when I hear them going to the shredder... Most importantly: Just because those mini's getting scrapped breaks my heart, it doesn't mean it's a personal attack against those doing the scrapping... It just plain breaks my heart. I think that sums it up for me... Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 30 19:57:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: dammit... Message-ID: <199912010157.UAA10410@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc? In the U.S.A. for over 10 years (therefore on-topic? :-) 90 V at 20Hz Many modern instruments are fairly tolerant and can handle other voltages and frequencies. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 30 20:17:36 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: dammit... Message-ID: <991130211736.202002bc@trailing-edge.com> > >Yes they did... SCSI to MFM bridges. My 3100's with MFM drive connectors inside them *do not* have a SCSI to MFM bridge controller. If you hook up a RD32, it shows up to VMS as DUA0:, not as a SCSI device. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 30 20:59:47 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) In-Reply-To: <001e01bf39da$c0ed63a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991130215947.0093c7e0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Some years back, the GOV switched from 9-track to 8mm, using the Exabyte >8200 as its standard. This was because you could hold what was formerly >stored on a truckload of 9-track tape on a single cartridge which would fit >in your pocket. A 2400foot tape at 6250tpi will give over 170 Meg or so, at my rough calculations... (as in not counting the BOT, EOT and stuff like that...) and even at 1600tpi it'll give over 43 Meg storage. An 8200 in noncompressed cartridge will store 2500 Meg, which produces equal storage to 15 9-tracks @ 6250tpi, or 58 tapes at 1600tpi. Having worked with the Gubbermint, I do know that they supported the 6250dpi datarate (if you could...) and I've carried 15 2400foot 9-track tapes all at once when I worked in the tape library at EDS Auburn Hills back in '89-'90. Hardly a truckload to me... or am I a *lot* stronger than I think... ;-) I will admit that even back then, we used a lot more 3490 tapes, which could store 550Meg per cartridge (and we had 8-cartridge autoloaders... 4Gig was a *lot* of storage way back then...). Cheers, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 30 21:07:20 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: dammit... In-Reply-To: <199912010157.UAA10410@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 30, 1999 08:57:32 PM Message-ID: <199912010307.UAA31902@calico.litterbox.com> > Well a SCSI Cdrom is easy enough to find all it has to do is support > variable length block sizes, many do. TK50GAs (or is it FZs) work with > them too as do TLZ04s, a slew of DLTs and SCSI tapes. > Plextor's ultraplex drives support VMS, according to the documentation. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 30 21:28:09 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: [OT] They're restarting Chernobyl? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991128065208.007ad100@mail.wincom.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19991127154422.0227f2a0@mcmanis.com> <13502991729.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991130222809.009ab420@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Charles E. Fox may have mentioned these words: > Here in Windsor, Ontario, we have some of the worst air in Canada. Most of >it comes from Michigan and Ohio on the westerly winds. > To add to our fun we have Fermi One, which almost went up, and Fermi Two, >which breaks down every month or so, just across the south end of the >Detroit River. Here in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan we have the worst air in the U.P. of Michigan. It all comes from Sault, Ontario thanks to Algoma Steel, Abitibi-Price Paper & the northern winds to bring it all across. Thankfully, we've had hydro-based power (water-spun turbines - great for alleving those Y2K fears... ;-) since before 1900 - The Canadians finally built a hydro plant a few years ago, too. I'm not saying Detroit doesn't suck - IMHO it does... Bad. Really bad. *Really, Really Bad.* And I like Windsor - been there a couple times, and it seemed really nice. And hopefully, *finally* those cold, northern winds that bring us so much snow, might finally blow a Vax or two across the border to me... I'm still waiting to see if there might be a few to snag. Just wanted to let you know that not *all* Michiganders are stinkin', pollutin' bastards... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. If most parts of Canada are powered by non-hydro-based means, why do you call it a "hydro bill?" I always wondered that... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 21:59:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <000801bf3bb0$8238b2e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Our local government facilities offer 8200 format to whoever asks for it, but they never offered 6250 BPI in the bureaus I occasionally visited. It's actually fact that though they offer 8200 format, that's because it's a common subset of what they use. I'm not sure that's the case with the 800NRZI or 1600PE formats they previously made available but I bought into the 8mm stuff because of the media cost. The 8500 has twice the capacity of the 8200 and the 8500C and 8505 have twice that. Currently used 8mm drives have twice what they have and the newer ones not only have doubled that on a 112 meter tape, but quadrupled the transfer rates at the same time. Now, the tape drives I see them using hold nearly 60 GB all on a cartridge of which two will fit in your shirt pocket if you're not as fat as the average American. Now, wouldn't YOU rather carry a $5 cartridge in you shirt pocket rather than 15 9-track reels, and how about buying them and storing them? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) >Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >>Some years back, the GOV switched from 9-track to 8mm, using the Exabyte >>8200 as its standard. This was because you could hold what was formerly >>stored on a truckload of 9-track tape on a single cartridge which would fit >>in your pocket. > >A 2400foot tape at 6250tpi will give over 170 Meg or so, at my rough >calculations... (as in not counting the BOT, EOT and stuff like that...) >and even at 1600tpi it'll give over 43 Meg storage. An 8200 in >noncompressed cartridge will store 2500 Meg, which produces equal storage >to 15 9-tracks @ 6250tpi, or 58 tapes at 1600tpi. > >Having worked with the Gubbermint, I do know that they supported the >6250dpi datarate (if you could...) and I've carried 15 2400foot 9-track >tapes all at once when I worked in the tape library at EDS Auburn Hills >back in '89-'90. Hardly a truckload to me... or am I a *lot* stronger than >I think... ;-) > >I will admit that even back then, we used a lot more 3490 tapes, which >could store 550Meg per cartridge (and we had 8-cartridge autoloaders... >4Gig was a *lot* of storage way back then...). > >Cheers, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Nov 30 22:12:53 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Teleco Question... Message-ID: <00c301bf3bb2$5f789a20$a652e780@L166> Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone? 330 and 440 IIRC Dan Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc? 90v 20 hz Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC? about right IIRC Dan From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 30 22:39:08 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) In-Reply-To: <000801bf3bb0$8238b2e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991130233908.00972100@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Our local government facilities offer 8200 format to whoever asks for it, >but they never offered 6250 BPI in the bureaus I occasionally visited. We sent off 6250dpi tapes quite often... I suppose it's a regional thing. >The 8500 has twice the capacity of >the 8200 and the 8500C and 8505 have twice that. On the 8505 / 8500C - your doubled capacity depends on the compression ratio... if you achieve a 2:1 compression, you have indeed doubled your storage. On the 8505's I worked on, I normally achieved 1.7:1. > Currently used 8mm drives >have twice what they have and the newer ones not only have doubled that on a >112 meter tape, but quadrupled the transfer rates at the same time. Now, >the tape drives I see them using hold nearly 60 GB all on a cartridge of >which two will fit in your shirt pocket if you're not as fat as the average >American. Well, that limits me to one... assuming that I'm as fat as an average American... (how fat is the average American???) Anywho, I'm ~25lb overweight thanks to 2 heart attacks & I've not made time to exercise. Is that average? >Now, wouldn't YOU rather carry a $5 cartridge in you shirt pocket rather >than 15 9-track reels, and how about buying them and storing them? Actually, between the two, I'd rather have the 15 9-trackers... they're cool. Of course, I'd rather have 3490 cartridges & drive... they're even more cool. I can't *afford* the drives (new) and there's no used ones about to scavange / rescue / trade for, so 'll take what I can get... I'm not disputing the fact that the 8200's are superior / cheaper / whatever... I've worked with those, the 8505's pretty extensively & quite a few 4mm drives as well (just picked one up for myself to play with - it's a trade...) I just disputed that an 8200 cart. held a "truckload" of 9-trackers. Prost, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 22:45:37 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: VAXstation vs MicroVAX (was Re: dammit...) Message-ID: <19991201044537.27144.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Strickland wrote: > There are some substantial disadvantages to the 2000s. The biggest is they > want MFM disks, which are hard to find these days. 3100s are SCSI machines. And, MFM drives never got above ~150Mb. I have several RD54's just to keep my MV2000's alive. > Er. Let me qualify that and say VaxStation 2000s want MFM drives. Don't > know about MicroVax 2000s. Same thing. The hardware internally is identical. The difference is a jumper to tell the hardware whether to use the framebuffer or not. From an OS standpoint, moving the jumper gives a different model number, IIRC. (KA-610 vs KA-630 or something like that, I forget the exact numbers). The idea was that a VAX*station* would have a primary user and would only get a two user license (one for the serial port on the back, presumably for emergencies) and a MicroVAX 2000 would have many users, possibly on the rare and optional 8-port serial expansion, possibly on a terminal server. This way, you could get more money for the same software on the assumption that more potential users means more latitude to charge for software. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 22:47:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Teleco Question... Message-ID: <001701bf3bb7$366b0320$0400c0a8@winbook> There's actually a more precise spec for the tip and ring voltages. If you really want it, I can look up my old textbooks and give it to you, but first of all, the tip-ring (battery) voltage is -48 volts, where tip is close to ground. The ring voltage is a somewhat larger AC voltage, normally at about 20 Hz centered about RING such that there's about an 80-volt positive going pulse with respect to tip, but symmetical about RING. The actual voltage can vary quite a bit, but at the ends, where it enters your house, tip is AC referenced to earth. That's probably enough info for most purposes. IIRC, the off-hook AC signal (speech) is about 4-8 volts into 600 ohms. That's not terribly precise, but if you need better, I can dig out some references. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Daniel T. Burrows To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:21 PM Subject: Re: Teleco Question... > > >Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone? >330 and 440 IIRC >Dan >Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc? >90v 20 hz >Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC? >about right IIRC > >Dan > From sms at antinode.org Tue Nov 30 22:04:22 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 history (Was ... different) Message-ID: <99113022042250@antinode.org> From: Tim Shoppa shoppa@trailing-edge.com > >Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn that > >I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast. > Yes, the first 3100's had MFM controllers, and half-height MFM drives > (RD31, RD32) in them. They also had a 34-pin floppy interface to a > non-SCSI RX23. Then came models that had *both* MFM and SCSI interfaces. > The latest ones had two SCSI interfaces, and used a SCSI-fied RX23 in > them. I've never seen anything more primitive than the ST506/SCSI controller. Was there really a non-SCSI board before that? Even the earliest production ST506/SCSI boards in my experience lacked some or all of the 20- and 34-pin connectors for the ST506 disks, but after I added the connectors, I got an RD54 to work with one (for entertainment only). The TEST 7x formatter looked to be on a multi-day jaunt when I aborted it, but otherwise it was swell. Later, I found some (presumably later production) ST506/SCSI boards which were missing a few 8-pin DIP IC's and a few passive parts, no doubt saving a few dollars, but leaving only the floppy interface intact. The potential of DUA0 and DUA1 explains why the RX23 floppy is DUA2. I always assumed that DUA3 would be the other half of an RX50, if it were ever supported, but that was only an assumption. The firmware on my 3100 systems seemed bewildered by an RX33, so I never bothered trying an RX50. > True, the RX23 doesn't have a lot of use. You can't even (officially) > build a standalone backup kit on it. I modified the V6.2 STABACKIT to build a kit on (three) RX23 floppies, but some older firmware couldn't handle booting from them. V1.5 is good, possibly V1.4 also, as I recall. Faster booting than from a TK50. (Toggle switches would be _about_ as fast as a TK50.) And speaking of TK50, for the record, the external SCSI version is a TK50Z-FA (approved for the VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000) or a TK50Z-GA (newer firmware, external SCSI ID switch). I tried a -FA on a VAX 4200 with a KZQSA SCSI board long ago, and I use one on my VAXsta 3138 now, and have never had a problem. Has anyone actually had a problem using a -FA in a modern environment? (That's "modern" compared to a 2000, of course.) As for the smallest VAX, I'd vote for the VAXstation 3100 (model 38, WS42-xx, is faster than the original model 30, VS42-xx), as the smallest, practical, bargain system. A minimal 2000 is smaller, but add an external disk drive and the 2000 is bigger, and any 3100 with even one decent SCSI disk beats it easily for storage and speed. (It's not hard to beat two RD54 drives, unless all you have is RD53 drives.) Herr Moeller's PK2K SCSI port driver for the 2000 should help total storage, but the firmware still needs an RDxx from which to boot (or an RX33 for Standalone BACKUP). The 3100 permits more memory and better graphics, too. I'm not throwing away my 2000, but I wouldn't start with one today, unless it fell on me (as my first one did). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 30 22:58:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) Message-ID: <001e01bf3bb8$bb8c0440$0400c0a8@winbook> It's no secret that Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?) >Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >>Our local government facilities offer 8200 format to whoever asks for it, >>but they never offered 6250 BPI in the bureaus I occasionally visited. > >We sent off 6250dpi tapes quite often... I suppose it's a regional thing. > >>The 8500 has twice the capacity of >>the 8200 and the 8500C and 8505 have twice that. > >On the 8505 / 8500C - your doubled capacity depends on the compression >ratio... if you achieve a 2:1 compression, you have indeed doubled your >storage. On the 8505's I worked on, I normally achieved 1.7:1. > >> Currently used 8mm drives >>have twice what they have and the newer ones not only have doubled that on a >>112 meter tape, but quadrupled the transfer rates at the same time. Now, >>the tape drives I see them using hold nearly 60 GB all on a cartridge of >>which two will fit in your shirt pocket if you're not as fat as the average >>American. > >Well, that limits me to one... assuming that I'm as fat as an average >American... (how fat is the average American???) Anywho, I'm ~25lb >overweight thanks to 2 heart attacks & I've not made time to exercise. Is >that average? YES >>Now, wouldn't YOU rather carry a $5 cartridge in you shirt pocket rather >>than 15 9-track reels, and how about buying them and storing them? > >Actually, between the two, I'd rather have the 15 9-trackers... they're >cool. Of course, I'd rather have 3490 cartridges & drive... they're even >more cool. I can't *afford* the drives (new) and there's no used ones about >to scavange / rescue / trade for, so 'll take what I can get... > >I'm not disputing the fact that the 8200's are superior / cheaper / >whatever... I've worked with those, the 8505's pretty extensively & quite a >few 4mm drives as well (just picked one up for myself to play with - it's a >tra de...) I just disputed that an 8200 cart. held a "truckload" of 9-trackers. I was, when I made the original remark, grossly hyperbolizing, but in the spirit of "Why the h*ll didn't they do that much sooner?" My 8505XL routinely gets about the 1.7x compression from hardware compression and somewhat improves the already-compressed data it gets from the old backup software. One volume, mostly text, gets bout 2.2x, though. My 160 meter tapes are adequate for a nominally 15GB system backup. I find that so long as I (or my clients) have backup devices which allow the entire backup set to be recorded on a single element of the medium in question, they have good backups whenever they're needed. With the ones requiring manual media shuffling, all bets are off. Dick >Prost, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 30 23:53:36 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:53 2005 Subject: The good old days of tape players In-Reply-To: <0.6ef994b3.25760f60@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Dec 01, 1999 12:42:56 AM Message-ID: <199912010553.VAA25986@shell1.aracnet.com> > Speaking for the Timex/Sinclair community, most of us use sound-card > utilities whereby we can load or save programs and/or data using a cassette > recorder. For the zx81, there is actually a utility which sends an audio > signal out the PC's parallel port, to be directly loaded into a zx81 or saved > on tape for use later. > > If you wish, I could direct you to the authors of these utilities -- one of > them may be interested in helping you solve this problem. > > Regards, > > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 > Hmmm, do I understand that first part correctly that you're essentially using the PC as a cassette recorder? That *REALLY* appeals to my sick sense of humor. Now what machines do I have that can use cassette tapes.... :^) Zane From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Nov 29 18:38:23 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (wpe101@banet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:55 2005 Subject: Antique Trader References: <01BF3A7A.FADD4710.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <38431C7F.9A5B0C94@banet.net> I found a copy of the article via www.csmonline/antiquetrader/news.html (you must register with them for access). Great reading! Will Steve Robertson wrote: > > Someone in my office brought in a clip from "Antique Trader" dated Nov 10, > 1999. Featured in this rag was "An Introduction to Collecting Computers" by > our fellow collector Kevin Stumpf. > > The only inacurracy was in the "Lists and Newsgroups" section where it said > "Send an email to *Error! Bookmark not Defined*". This was supposed to be a > plug for the CC list but, got mangled before going to press :-( > > All in all, a very nice article... Way to go Kevin! > > Steve Robertson - From adavie at mad.scientist.com Tue Nov 30 07:05:56 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:55 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS needs saving Message-ID: <002901bf3b33$a4b2dee0$90f438cb@SLIPSTICK> Well, it's sort of 'saved' already; this machine is sitting in my garage. But, I'm planning a move, and it HAS to go sometime sooner rather than later. And if it comes to it, 'later' might mean that it goes to the TIP. That would be a shame. Unit looks in good condition, and had the heads professionally parked before I grabbed it. Has a floppy drive (RD-50?) and some tapes, too. I've never tried powering it. Unit is in Sydney (Australia), and I'm sure hoping somebody wants it. I'd feel rather bad seeing it junked. Totally free, of course. A -- Andrew Davie adavie@mad.scientist.com // adavie@comcen.com.au // adavie@bde.com.au Museum of Soviet Calculators http://members.xoom.com/adavie/soviet.html Slide Rule Trading Post http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Nov 30 17:50:03 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:55 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS needs saving References: <002901bf3b33$a4b2dee0$90f438cb@SLIPSTICK> Message-ID: <00a401bf3b8d$b8a65800$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Davie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, 30 November 1999 11:35 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS needs saving > Well, it's sort of 'saved' already; this machine is sitting in my garage. > But, I'm planning a move, and it HAS to go sometime sooner rather than > later. And if it comes to it, 'later' might mean that it goes to the TIP. > That would be a shame. Unit looks in good condition, and had the heads > professionally parked before I grabbed it. Has a floppy drive (RD-50?) and > some tapes, too. I've never tried powering it. > Unit is in Sydney (Australia), and I'm sure hoping somebody wants it. I'd > feel rather bad seeing it junked. > Totally free, of course. Can you give me an idea of size/weight? I could be tempted...... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Nov 30 23:42:56 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:56 2005 Subject: The good old days of tape players Message-ID: <0.6ef994b3.25760f60@aol.com> Someone wrote: > >stuff to get it working. Those were the days and I kind of miss it. > >Those golden days were great. That got me to think if there was a way to > >hook up a tape player (cassette) to an IBMPC to mimick it. Has anyone > >tried this..... Zane replied: > Wait a minute.... How do people read stuff like VIC-20 cassette tapes into > the computer to use in emulators? That's what you need to look into if you > want to try something like this. Speaking for the Timex/Sinclair community, most of us use sound-card utilities whereby we can load or save programs and/or data using a cassette recorder. For the zx81, there is actually a utility which sends an audio signal out the PC's parallel port, to be directly loaded into a zx81 or saved on tape for use later. If you wish, I could direct you to the authors of these utilities -- one of them may be interested in helping you solve this problem. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0