From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Mar 3 18:49:53 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:30 2005 Subject: Jumpers for XT-4380 Message-ID: <199903010049.QAA06101@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Zane: Here are XT-4380 jumper settings, from the functional drive sitting here in front of me: DS1 jumpered JP42 on JP30 on JP31 on JP25 on JP6 on JP17 on JP19-22 on 4 bottom jumpers to the right of JP24 also on. This set of jumpers is bordered on both sides by 10 pin terminators. JP1 on 5 by 2 pin jumper block at the rear of the drive: nothing installed here. This works for me, on an Emulex QD21. Hope this helps, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 1 00:16:53 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:32 2005 Subject: HP85 Available References: Message-ID: <36DA30D5.3DFF7D4D@rain.org> At the last TRW, John picked up an HP85 that he stuck me with :). If anyone is interested in it, $10 plus shipping from zip 93105. I haven't weighed it yet, but that can be done if anyone is interested. Condition unknown, but the guy said his son plugged it in and it worked. No manuals, plugins, etc. come with the unit. I also plugged it in, and it ran my usual: 10 print "hello" 20 goto 10 program with no problems, and it sounded like the printer was trying to print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey although it is still round at this point :). From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 4 00:31:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:34 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 In-Reply-To: <199903010457.WAA15648@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Feb 28, 99 10:55:56 pm Message-ID: <199903010631.WAA11767@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990228/91edbada/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 1 00:35:11 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:34 2005 Subject: Kaypro err msg In-Reply-To: <36DA22ED.27D16662@escape.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Grant Zozman wrote: > John Lawson wrote: > > > Since I have no maint docs, does anyone know what the error > > message "System Status 02" mean during a Kaypro 10 boot? > > > > The ROM signs on, CP/m signs on and then it hangs with that message. > > > > ROM 1.9e CP/m V 2.2F > > > > 10M ready light is on, Floppy light is on, floppy does not access, > > keyboard clicks but no effect. multiple resets return to the same state. > > > > Cheerz and Thanks > > > > John > > According to my Kaypro User's Manual, this error is a "read error". No more > information than this is given, but I would assume there is a bad spot on > your hard drive on the boot tracks or directory tracks. And it appears to originate in the WD1002-HDO controller, as there is no such text in the installed EPROM (v1.9E). - don > If you have a boot floppy, try starting the machine with it, and then see if > you can successfully pull up a directory of the hard drive. > > Let me know if I can be of further assistance; I have a fairly complete > library of the original software and documentation which came with the > machine when new, as well as a mostly working Kaypro 10. > > BTW, does anyone have a spare hard drive controller card from a Kaypro 10?; > mine seems somewhat flaky when booting up. > > Grant > gzozman@escape.ca > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 1 01:33:24 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:34 2005 Subject: Teledisk Group Buy Update: Three shares left Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990228233324.0091f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This is an update for the rather large group buy of Teledisk I'm coordinating. As of 23:32, Sunday, 28-Feb-99, we have 47 people in on it and THREE license shares remaining. That's three shares left, folks. More updates as I get them. Thanks to all those who have participated so far. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From nfields at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 1 01:51:23 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:34 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: <199903010729.CAA05534@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <36DA46FB.BC5BC614@ix.netcom.com> Introduction to Computer Organization and Data Structures: PDP-11 Edition by Harold Stone and Daniel Siewiorek. In good condition. Library binding. Copyright 1975. 370 pages. Buyer pays shipping and in advance. So far, the bid is 1.00 on it. Thought someone here might be interested :) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=72212703 From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Mar 1 00:01:54 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:35 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Last call, Teledisk Pro group buy In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990227070539.00944510@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990301010154.0094e500@mail.30below.com> On or about 07:05 AM 2/27/99 -0800, Bruce Lane was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: [snip] > The current version runs under DOS, or under a DOS window in W95 or NT >Workstation. One caveat: Since it is possible that the program makes direct >hardware calls to the floppy drive, it may not perform as it should under >NT, thanks to NT's security features. Other than that, I know of no problems. The reason it won't work with NT is not because of NT's security (which is better than Win9x, but that ain't saying much... ;-/ ) but because of NT's "hardware abstraction layer." This layer doesn't allow any proggie to take absolute control of any piece of hardware, so it will "play nice" with other programs in a multi-tasking environment. To try to bring this on-topic a bit, this is the same reason the CoCo emulators won't run under NT - not only the floppy drive problem, but also the emulators take total control of the video to emulate the CoCo[2-3] screen - this gives NT heartburn as well. Just thought you'd like to know. Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 00:04:16 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Even More Stuff available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Sure, but I think its also worth mentioning to other people that a certain > seller is difficult to deal with. This guy said that if you were to > actually come to pick up the stuff, which is stored in his garage, you > wouldn't actually be allowed to come into the garage because he's afraid > of your germs. You'd have to wait outside while he brought the stuff out > to you. That's a good sign! The weirder the seller, the more likely it is he has interesting stuff. Anybody here who thought they'd be dealing with normal people is in the wrong hobby. Maybe I'll call the guy after all.... -- Doug From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Mar 1 01:01:52 1999 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 available. Message-ID: <01J8APV3CSFM8Y64CB@AC.GRIN.EDU> I have a TRS-80 Model 16 I'd like to get rid of. Comes with: * Base unit with two 8" floppy drives * keyboard * printer * Twelve Meg Disk System * Nice stack of manuals I picked this up last summer, but haven't had the time to clean it up and make it work. It powers up fine, but won't boot from the hard drive or from floppy. There's some minor screen burn-in. I *really* don't want to ship this monster. I live in central Iowa, and pickup is welcome. I'm also driving across the country at the end of the month, so if you live between Iowa and Connecticut, we might be able to work something out. I'm not looking for much in exchange - some nominal amount of cash or something small and interesting. -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley/ coakley@ac.grin.edu CBEL: Xavier OH CMEL: Xavier From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Mar 1 01:29:58 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Deadline: Teledisk group grab Message-ID: <199903010729.CAA05534@platy.cs.unc.edu> Just a note, some of us (like me) read the list in digest form, one big blob per day. It arrives around 2am with the previous days' messages in it. Usually I read it around 11pm. So there is typically over 30 hours delay between when messages are sent and when I read them. (Say, sent before 5pm, read the next day around 11pm). I doubt that I am the only one in this situation, although I might be the worst case, reading late at night as I do. (And now you know why I always seem to revive dead threads!) With this in mind, please don't expect everybody to respond right away. If you really want to offer something to everybody, you have to allow at least two days turnaround time. Of course, if there are other reasons to need quick responses, do it! I know I am sacrificing something to get the list in digest form, and I won't blame anyone else for that. And in this case, I have such mixed feelings about Sydex that I'm not sure I would have responded anyway. So this is more of a "note for future reference" than anything else. Aside from all of that, thanks Bruce, for putting in the effort on this. Even though I didn't leap at it, I did consider it, and appreciate it. Cheers, Bill. On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: ] Well! This is going better than I ever expected! ] ] We've got 17 people so far, counting myself, interested in chipping in for ] a copy of Teledisk. This has brought the per-person price down to $9.00 ] (assuming $150 for the program plus $3.00 shipping). ] ] We have eight slots left out of 25 originally, and it occurs to me that I ] should probably set a deadline. For the moment, that deadline is 17:00 ] Pacific Time Sunday (2-28). In other words, tomorrow by five. ] ] If you're interested in getting in on this, please let me know via private ] E-mail by then. ] ] Thanks to all who've signed up so far. ] ] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ] Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies ] http://www.bluefeathertech.com ] Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com ] SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) ] "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own ] human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Jgzabol at aol.com Mon Mar 1 01:33:55 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 28.02.99 17:56:37 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << I hope you are not thinking about those 3380s and 3390s on eBay right now - $500 a piece?!!?!?!! William Donzelli william@ans.net >> I did, but transport is too expensive. I thought about building a controller, and adding these boxes (about 2 cubic meters each) to a PC in opposite movement to current hard disk evolution. So I will need to wait until some nice 14" drives come around. Some years ago, I indeed DID build a controller for some CDC 14" drives, to add onto a MC 6800 system (6800, NOT 68000 !!). That is not too difficult, since the drives usually contain already some hardware to take care of the servo functions, which is the most critical part, and of course write drivers/read amplifiers. Regards John G. Zabolitzky From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 02:04:09 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DA46FB.BC5BC614@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Noel Fields wrote: > So far, the bid is 1.00 on it. Thought someone here might be interested :) If there was already a bid on it, somebody was obviously interested in it, but I guess he won't be getting it for $1 anymore :-( -- Doug From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Mar 1 03:13:13 1999 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: 30-pin SIMMS Message-ID: >> Are there any adapter cards so 4 1mb simms can be used as a 4mb >> 30 pin? I have seen those that can be used as a 72 pin. Well, I came across a 72-pin adapter that took 30 pin SIMMS (I'm not sure if you meant that or were talking about 72 pin adapters that took 72 pin SIMMS). I've never seen a 30 - to - 30 adapter around, although I'd expect it to be possible to build one. I think SIMM-savers were only around briefly during the couple of years when 30 pin SIMMS were going out of fashion and 72 pin ones were coming in. I remember working on some PCs (Unisys?) a few years ago which had all their main memory on a full-length daughterboard card - there were something like 16 30-pin SIMM sockets on there, although I think the systems only recognised 256Kb SIMMS, not 1Mb's... cheers, Jules > > From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Mon Mar 1 03:13:22 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits Message-ID: <002a01be63c3$c19088c0$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Marvin wrote with respect to a HP85: >print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey >although it is still round at this point :). I've often see rubber items on old printers and stuff go "gooey" like this. Does anyone understand why this happens and whether it is reversible? Sometimes in 2 different examples of the same machine, one has the problem and the other hasn't. My apologies if this has been discussed before. I missed it. Hans Olminkhof From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 03:27:10 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <002a01be63c3$c19088c0$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > I've often see rubber items on old printers and stuff go "gooey" like this. > Does anyone understand why this happens and whether it is reversible? > Sometimes in 2 different examples of the same machine, one has the problem > and the other hasn't. I don't know the exact chemical reactions, but it has to do with the type of rubber used: natural rubber + O2 -> goo foam rubber + O2 -> dust synthetic rubber + O2 -> harder synthetic rubber or something like that.... Almost all rubber I've encountered in HP equipment has turned to goo. The rubber heathkit used in the lid of the H8 and the H11 also goes gooey. One of the oldest pieces of equipment I have, a Friden Flexowriter, seems to have survived well except for the rubber that was used on the AC cord. -- Doug From kevan at heydon.org Mon Mar 1 04:31:16 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-700 + other bits available. Message-ID: Reply to him directly if you are interested. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Neil R. Temple To: "collector@heydon.org" Subject: Vintage Electronics I am in the process of cleaning out my home office and realized that I have 1st generation office electronics that may be of interest to a collector. I have a Sharp PC-7000 portable computer ( 2 - 5.25 " drives, no hard drive!, LCD screen, detachable keyboard with case, original manuals and disks) a portable fax machine (300 baud rotating drum Polaris Datafax 300 with carrying case, manuals and paper) and a personal copier (3M 051 copier - 2 step thermal transfer process with paper) all very early 80s. Are you interested or do you know another collector who may be?? I just can't bring myself to junk these old friends. I'm not looking for money for these items, only the cost of shipping. I'm located in Northern Virginia, just south of Washington, DC. I may be able to provide photos and/or additonal information. I really want to move them out of my office, but can't bring myself to just throw them out. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 06:22:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: KA630 CNF? References: <199902282053.AA01168@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903011222.AA12094@world.std.com> >Off almost certainly means leaving the pin open. Depends on whether the signal is active-low or active-high. >Shouldn't matter that the memory isn't on board, since it's PMI memory. >The real question is whether the KA650 allows the bus arbiter to be >disabled, and provides the interprocessor doorbell interrupt. Yeah, it would... to be able to use it, there would have to be enough Q/CD slots to have the main processor, then the KA650 and its memory. With an 11/83 and 4mb, that leaves no slots in a BA23. Even if I cut back to one 2mb memory board, that only leaves one slot, which the CPU would occupy, with no room for a memory board for it... >Are there KA650 and KA655 manuals comparable to the KA630-AA CPU Module >User's Guide? I haven't been able to find one. I recently got a KA655 >(M7625-BA) with three M7622 16M RAM boards (two M7622-AT and one >M7622-AP). I'm hoping that I can just swap it with the KA630 and MS630 >in my BA123. (In the BA23, IIRC, there are only three CD slots, so I'd >only be able to use two of the memory cards.) I went looking yesterday and found my KA650 CPU module Technical manual, so they do exist... EK-KA650-UG Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 06:25:24 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: HP85 Available References: Message-ID: <199903011225.AA13487@world.std.com> >10 print "hello" >20 goto 10 >program with no problems, and it sounded like the printer was trying to >print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey >although it is still round at this point :). That's because it was... there is a different command to display the output rather than print it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 1 08:34:21 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Lucky Day II In-Reply-To: <001601be632a$9b2c4aa0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990301083421.489f3cd2@intellistar.net> At 08:57 AM 2/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hey, >Not all of us can find Altairs. So I had to brag about whatever it is that I >got. (I would prefer to brag about an Altair though) >How many of have the IBM PCjr Carrying Case? Never seen one of those but I did score two carrying cases for the Compaq Portables and three KayPro carrying cases (all different) at the last hamfest. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 1 09:09:21 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <002a01be63c3$c19088c0$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990301090921.09d772dc@intellistar.net> At 08:13 PM 3/1/99 +1100, you wrote: >Marvin wrote with respect to a HP85: > >>print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey >>although it is still round at this point :). > >I've often see rubber items on old printers and stuff go "gooey" like this. >Does anyone understand why this happens and whether it is reversible? >Sometimes in 2 different examples of the same machine, one has the problem >and the other hasn't. Hans, I don't know what causes the "rubber" to turn gooy but I know it's common for the drive wheels in ALL of the HP tapes and mag card drives to turn gooy with age. I took a HP 7912 tape drive apart last week and the "rubber" had liquified and actually dripped into the other parts of the tape drive sort of like paint. The HP-85 belts are made of a different material, they don't turn gooy but just fall apart with age. My $.02 worth, Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 1 09:12:13 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: References: <002a01be63c3$c19088c0$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990301091213.09d70946@intellistar.net> At 04:27 AM 3/1/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > > >I don't know the exact chemical reactions, but it has to do with the type >of rubber used: > natural rubber + O2 -> goo > foam rubber + O2 -> dust > synthetic rubber + O2 -> harder synthetic rubber >or something like that.... That sounds about right but I think it maybe O3 (ozone) that causes deterioration. Ozone is generated in many electrical devices especailly by electrical arcs. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 1 09:32:03 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: S-100 Mystery board In-Reply-To: <01BE636D.07097D00@slip-32-100-187-34.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990301093203.09d7918a@intellistar.net> Barry, I can't tell much about the board except that it's the same board that Stan S. and I have in our Alpha Micro A-100 computers. I've been told that the top connector means tht it has ECC built into it but I don't know what the connector itself is for. It doesn't look like it has enough ICs on it to be ECC. >Anyone who has information, it would be appreciated. I'd most like to get a manual and switch settings [there are FOUR dip switches on this thing], So would I! Let me know if get a copy. also the IC at 9B is missing and the board screening does not identify what should go there. Mine has a DM74LS11N made by National Semiconductor there. You may want to verify that with Stan S. If you don't need it, I'd like to have it for my AM. Joe At 10:19 PM 2/28/99 -0500, you wrote: >I bought an S-100 card today at a hamfest for $1.00, now can someone tell me what it is ? > >It's a "65k byte SupeRam 2" P65D2 Rev. C by PIICEON, Inc. > >It has 64k of DRAM on it, 4 rows of 8 4116's, but the rest of the board does not look very "Ram-like", AND it has a 34-pin board edge connector at the top of the board. I realize that this suggests a 5" floppy drive interface, but a combined RAM and FDC card ????? Plus, the edge connector is VERY un-floppy like, normally a floppy connector would have half of the pins being ground, this clearly looks like it has active signals on almost all 34 lines. > >Anyone who has information, it would be appreciated. I'd most like to get a manual and switch settings [there are FOUR dip switches on this thing], also the IC at 9B is missing and the board screening does not identify what should go there. > >Regards, >Barry Watzman > > > > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Mar 1 07:43:58 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990301090921.09d772dc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001be63e9$8e80fb60$81f438cb@a.davie> My understanding is that in the case of HP card readers, there is a small silicone roller/wheel, which oxidises. Can anyone confirm oxidised silicone is "gooey" :) ? In any case, the roller can be replaced by a piece of appropriateley sized nylon tubing cut to size. I just so happen to have about 1m length of this tubing, which I will happily share out pieces of to those in need, for the cost of postage. Cheers A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:09 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Gooey rubber bits > > > At 08:13 PM 3/1/99 +1100, you wrote: > >Marvin wrote with respect to a HP85: > > > >>print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey > >>although it is still round at this point :). > > > >I've often see rubber items on old printers and stuff go "gooey" > like this. > >Does anyone understand why this happens and whether it is reversible? > >Sometimes in 2 different examples of the same machine, one has > the problem > >and the other hasn't. > > Hans, > > I don't know what causes the "rubber" to turn gooy but I know > it's common > for the drive wheels in ALL of the HP tapes and mag card drives to turn > gooy with age. I took a HP 7912 tape drive apart last week and > the "rubber" > had liquified and actually dripped into the other parts of the tape drive > sort of like paint. The HP-85 belts are made of a different > material, they > don't turn gooy but just fall apart with age. > > My $.02 worth, > > Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 1 10:04:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <000001be63e9$8e80fb60$81f438cb@a.davie> References: <3.0.1.16.19990301090921.09d772dc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990301100419.2faf5048@intellistar.net> Andrew, It's not silicone, it's some type of polyurathane. Yes, they do turn to goo. They can be fixed, I've fixed hundreds of them. But it's not as easy as it sounds, there's a lot of specail techniques involved. You need six hands just getting the HP 41 card reader back together again. Joe At 12:43 AM 3/2/99 +1100, you wrote: >My understanding is that in the case of HP card readers, there is a small >silicone roller/wheel, which oxidises. Can anyone confirm oxidised silicone >is "gooey" :) ? In any case, the roller can be replaced by a piece of >appropriateley sized nylon tubing cut to size. I just so happen to have >about 1m length of this tubing, which I will happily share out pieces of to >those in need, for the cost of postage. >Cheers >A > >-- >adavie@mad.scientist.com >visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at >http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html >a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool >Site!? >? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe >> Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 8:09 PM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Re: Gooey rubber bits >> >> >> At 08:13 PM 3/1/99 +1100, you wrote: >> >Marvin wrote with respect to a HP85: >> > >> >>print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey >> >>although it is still round at this point :). >> > >> >I've often see rubber items on old printers and stuff go "gooey" >> like this. >> >Does anyone understand why this happens and whether it is reversible? >> >Sometimes in 2 different examples of the same machine, one has >> the problem >> >and the other hasn't. >> >> Hans, >> >> I don't know what causes the "rubber" to turn gooy but I know >> it's common >> for the drive wheels in ALL of the HP tapes and mag card drives to turn >> gooy with age. I took a HP 7912 tape drive apart last week and >> the "rubber" >> had liquified and actually dripped into the other parts of the tape drive >> sort of like paint. The HP-85 belts are made of a different >> material, they >> don't turn gooy but just fall apart with age. >> >> My $.02 worth, >> >> Joe >> >> > > From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Mar 1 07:59:20 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: The perfect solution: Re: schematics useful to anyone In-Reply-To: <36D776D4.2818@swbell.net> References: <990226163934.21c0046d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990301075920.009b22e0@texas.net> Why don't you scan them and post them on the net?? At 10:38 PM 2/26/99 -0600, you wrote: >Folks, > > I have photocopies of TI 99/4A schematics and two or three revs of the >corvus concept. Would these be useful to anyone? > >Regards, Mitch Wright > > From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Mar 1 08:31:10 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Even More Stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990301091858.009ffb60@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:54 PM 2/28/99 -0500, Doug said something like: >On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> He just wants too much money for some very mundane stuff. He thinks >> the shit is worth gold, but its not. > >Define "mundane." Can you get H11 software and docs at the 7-11? For >somebody that *needs* the stuff, the prices are on the high side, but not >completely absurd. It's simply impossible to ever say what something is >"worth" unless it's a commodity. Don't even try. As you've seen, even >prices on ebay vary wildly for the same stuff -- it all depends on who's >looking on a given day. There's no formula. Rare doesn't necessarily >mean valuable, and "mundane" doesn't necessarily mean cheap. > >> > How about $100 for H-11 doc 3-ring binders, and $140 for the paper >> > tape media software. I still feel the same as Sellam. I'd seen this list back in the summer on some ng. Seems he'd be out of the country by now as he said he was about to be. Rather high priced and if he's not interested in negotiating, well, let him take the stuff overseas with him and get his price there. > >Speaking of paper tape, does anybody know where I can get fanfold paper >tape holders? I've got one holder, and its great to organize the tapes, >but I need a few more. Any good substitutes? Try Western Numeric who sell paper/mylar tape and supplies primarily to machine shops that use punched tape for their machining programs: http://www.westnc.com/ I didn't see exactly what you're looking for in their product index however they are a good contact to start from to find it. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 1 08:47:42 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Deadline: Teledisk group grab In-Reply-To: <199903010729.CAA05534@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301064742.009549e0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 02:29 01-03-1999 -0500, you wrote: >Just a note, some of us (like me) read the list in digest form, one >big blob per day. It arrives around 2am with the previous days' >messages in it. Usually I read it around 11pm. So there is typically This is exactly why I'm waiting until this Wednesday to close the gate on it. ;-) Thanks for thinking of us. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 1 08:51:39 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Teledisk Buy Update: Two shares left Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301065139.00956670@mail.bluefeathertech.com> As of 06:48, Monday, March 1 '99, we have TWO (2) shares left in the Teledisk group buy. I ask that those who may get the urge to get a couple of shares simply to push things forward please hold off until, say, Wednesday afternoon. We may get another couple of folks into the ring. Thanks to all who have participated so far. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Mar 1 08:52:10 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software Message-ID: <01be63f3$15638900$9101eac5@tiger> Hi, I got this request from another transputer user. Apparently he has a T9000 SuperCluster with no documentation & software. Parsys Ltd is no longer in business, so does anyone have the so mentioned software and documentation. Thanks. Ram PS: He also has a network interface card that is called IMSB013 and the transputer motherboard that looks like a TMB12 from Transtech. He also has all the power supplies and the case. From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Mar 1 09:23:12 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: FW: VAX / VMS Manuals etc.. In-Reply-To: <3$oznCAhjR22Ewkx@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk> References: <3$oznCAhjR22Ewkx@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <36dbb0b2.764153184@smtp.jps.net> Anyone in the UK (heck, here for that matter) want some VMS books? Get in contact with this fellow. -=-=- -=-=- On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:22:25 +0000, in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >>From: "Tim. Bluck." >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>Subject: VAX / VMS Manuals etc.. >>Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:22:25 +0000 >>Organization: O.E.S. Electronics Engineers. >>Message-ID: <3$oznCAhjR22Ewkx@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: planet-tharg.demon.co.uk >>X-NNTP-Posting-Host: planet-tharg.demon.co.uk:212.229.58.50 >>X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 920296582 nnrp-02:3920 NO-IDENT planet-tharg.demon.co.uk:212.229.58.50 >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>X-Newsreader: Turnpike (16) Version 3.05 >>Lines: 12 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!planet-tharg.demon.co.uk!tb >>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:1130 >> >>Hello. >> I have A whole load of Dec vax / vms / basic / all-in-one..... >>manuals, If anybody would like any of them, or if there's any interest >>at all, I'll try to post a list of what I have.. >> >>They're free, You just pay for the postage, or collect. I'm in North >>Kent, England. And I can be reached at the following e-mail address. >> >>tb@planet-tharg.demon.co.uk >> >>Many thanks. >>Tim.R.Bluck. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 1 10:03:58 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DABA6E.BDB3CA27@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Noel Fields wrote: > > > So far, the bid is 1.00 on it. Thought someone here might be interested :) > > If there was already a bid on it, somebody was obviously interested in it, > but I guess he won't be getting it for $1 anymore :-( Hmmm, with all the DEC handbooks being mentioned here, why do you have a problem with telling people the handbook is available? Somehow, it seems like harassing people who post ebay auctions (and other items elsewhere) really doesn't do a bit of good except to provide a bit of irritation. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 09:58:42 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: interesting, interesting. In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990228133105.00b0f170@mcmanis.com> <9902281304.ZM29553@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301095842.00cc8480@vpwisfirewall> At 03:01 PM 2/28/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >If you can fit a 8mm Camcorder tape in there it's a 8mm Exabyte drive. >People claim you can use the same tapes, I'm not one of them though, I use >Data grade tapes in my 8mm drives. If you take the drive you it will say >if it's a 8200 or a 8500. You've got a very nice sounding system there. I use an 8500 for backups on my WinNT PC. On Exabyte's site, you can get a DOS-based program that'll update the firmware, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 09:31:50 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Novice prospectors guide In-Reply-To: References: <199902262301.RAA07230@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301093150.00cda720@vpwisfirewall> At 10:40 AM 2/27/99 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Lawrence LeMay wrote: >>Anything with the word Terak on it, that isnt from Star Trek Deep >>Space Nine, is a collectable. Oh, you're just saying that to inflate the value of your Teraks. :-) >I ran across someone in AZ that collects Teraks. I still have a couple >boxes of 8" floppies from college (UC Riverside was supposed to be working >with UC San Diego on the Pascal stuff, but end results were about all we >saw). Ran across? You mean, in person? Or online? Terak Corporation was founded in Scottsdale, Arizona. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 09:50:04 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Novice prospectors guide In-Reply-To: <199902280155.AA16462@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301095004.00f82a00@vpwisfirewall> At 08:55 PM 2/27/99 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > >Yes, DEC sold cards and networking software to work with the VAX (DECNET) >systems. The software started as PCSA, later known as PATHWORKS and >TEAMLINKS. Since I have and use vaxen the software would be a find. The >net cards are standard eithernet. Hmm. I picked up a TK50 (sans cable) and a number of carts that were probably used with some kind of MicroVAX: MicroVAX v4.6 Full bin MicroVAX v4.6 mand update MicroVAX v4.6 VMS lic key Appletalk for VMS v2.0.6 & 2.1, another 3.0b2 OVMS VAX v6.0a MUP VMS v5.5 bin, and mand update Odesta HelixVMX I got a VS2000 (w/o keyboard or monitor) at the same time that I haven't fired-up yet. - John From amirault at epix.net Mon Mar 1 13:50:33 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Lucky Day II References: <001601be632a$9b2c4aa0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <36DAEF89.1099E7@epix.net> Hi, What is the model number on the monitor? There are two different monitors that I know of. Do you have an extra light pen? Does it have a hard drive? Do you want more info on IBM PCJr's? What cartridges do you have? Which version of DOS are you using? I suggest 3.3 . Please respond. I collect PCJr's and do have some extra parts and am in need of a light pen. John Amirault Francois wrote: > > Hey, > Not all of us can find Altairs. So I had to brag about whatever it is that I > got. (I would prefer to brag about an Altair though) > How many of have the IBM PCjr Carrying Case? > Francois > > >Francois, > > > > Whatever floats your boat! > > > > Joe > > > >At 09:25 AM 2/27/99 -0600, you wrote: > >>Fine, > >>I got a complete PCjr with pretty much all of the peripherals ever made > for > >>it, two joysticks, color monitor, a box of software and the carrying case. > >>So there! > >>Francois > >> > >> From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 1 11:49:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: References: <002a01be63c3$c19088c0$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990301094823.00b92980@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 04:27 AM 3/1/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >I don't know the exact chemical reactions, but it has to do with the type >of rubber used: > natural rubber + O2 -> goo > foam rubber + O2 -> dust > synthetic rubber + O2 -> harder synthetic rubber >or something like that.... Is that really O2 or is it O3 (ie Ozone)? --Chuck From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 1 12:00:38 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Novice prospectors guide In-Reply-To: References: <199902272115.PAA07944@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Feb 27, 99 03:15:56 pm Message-ID: >I think Max is right. When you're starting out, buy anything that's cheap >and that could possibly be interesting. If it turns out to be a PC-clone, >well, either sell the parts on, or use it as a terminal, or something >like that. OK, I took your advice, and its not a PC clone, but I am having a little trouble explaining these 22 tea kettles to my wife. (hey, they are classics with a power cord, thats on topic isn't it ;) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 1 13:19:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Hans Franke? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990224090555.009ef970@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: <199903011820.TAA10196@horus.mch.sni.de> 7F00,0000,0000> >Did Hans Franke die or something? I haven't heard even a peep from that > >loquacious Bavarian in a while. loqua... what you said ? Take a pice of soap (just in case, while I check my dictionary) 7F00,0000,0000> Yeah, it has been a bit quiet around here :) Ahh ja ... And I was wondering about Bob's reply today :) ---- 7F00,0000,0000Arial> Sorry for the late answer - I have been in Helsinki > for the last two weeks - maybe you have noticed me > for not having any opinion on CC ;) And, yes, I (and other) did notice your absence - much like Sherlock Holmes' remark when he mentioned the unusual incident of the dog in the nighttime. When Watson said, "But the dog did nothing in the nighttime," Holmes replied, "yes, that was the unusual incident!" Courier----7F00,0000,0000Arial 7F00,0000,0000Courier> I wonder if he's away from home on business. He works for Siemens Business > Services (www.sbs.de) in Munich and I think I recall that he manages > software development projects. SBS is a rather large systems integrator, > consultant and outsourcing provider, so he could be anywhere on a job. > Christine works there too in the Human Resources dept. Gee, is there anythin I can hide from you guys ? 7F00,0000,0000> >Maybe John Zabolitzky has heard from him in the past few weeks? > >Christian, do you have his telephone number by any chance? > No, I haven't yet got his number although Beverly and I plan to _someday_ > get back over there (depending on my job schedule whenever I find a new > job) and should get it anyway. I find there are seven phone listings for > Hans Franke in München and I don't know his exact address either. John Z. > could dig deeper over there I'm sure. Seven ? lets check :) Jep, I'm included with two old numbers :) 7F00,0000,0000> He'll reappear sometime I'm sure. I think this group is a bunch he can't > stay away from now :) Got me, But I think I need at least a week to read tis 2753 unread messages in the CC folder :)) - I did only forward some mails to my Newton (Nop Sam, your mails jumped into the VCF folder without forwarding). Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ss at allegro.com Mon Mar 1 12:20:49 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 In-Reply-To: <199903010631.WAA11767@shell2.aracnet.com> References: <199903010457.WAA15648@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <199903011820.KAA27584@bart.allegro.com> Zane writes: > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 is now available!!!! For more details see > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ ... I'm one of many people who are pushing Hewlett-Packard to setup a similar program for their Classic MPE systems (HP 3000/xx), so this is good news, particularly because it provides a template for an agreement! I have one question...if you read the DEC/Compaq license agreement at: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/license_terms.html you'll see that the agreement is only for one year. What happens after one year? thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 1 12:12:37 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: 30-pin SIMMS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990227200140.23a76062@earthlink.net> References: <199902272107.AA26334@world.std.com> Message-ID: >At 04:07 PM 2/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>>> >>You can still buy 30pin simms (256k, 1mb, 4mb) from JDR. the 4mb parts are >>scarce and finding them for less than 10$ is hard. The 1mb parts are like >>flies and they can be had for nearly nothing. >> >>Allison >> >Are there any adapter cards so 4 1mb simms can be used as a 4mb 30 pin? I >have seen those that can be used as a 72 pin. >-Dave Simm Stackers, I have several, even a set of 4 quadstackers (4 simms per card), but they are worth more than memory since they also will allow stacking larger simms like 4 or 16 MB. From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Mar 1 12:29:23 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: DEC, HP, Intel MCS, and Honeywell Pocket Reference cards for sale. Message-ID: <199903011829.NAA26325@golden.net> Honeywell DPS6 & Level 6 GCOS 6 Mod 400 Programmer's Pocket Guide (CZ07-01) - US$6 DEC PDP-9 & 9/L Instruction List, and PDP-9/L COMPACT Software System - US$6 DEC VAX-11 Programming Card - free DEC MicroVMS Programming Pocket Reference - free HP MPE III software pocket guide (April 1978) - still in binding, but well used - US$3 HP MPE software pocket guide (3" by 5" binder) (April 1981) - has name written on cover - US$6 HP MPE software pocket guide (3" by 5" binder) (April 1981) -- US$7 Intel 8080 Assembly Language Reference Card (March 1978), and 8" by 11" MCS-8 Users Manual Rev 2 (November 1972) - US$17 All items are in excellent condition unless otherwise noted and prices include ground shipment through Canada Post/US Mail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 1 13:37:56 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Ooops, Typo! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903011838.TAA11319@horus.mch.sni.de> > > I happened upon your web site and noticed that the word "Beginning" is > > misspelled (you have it as "Begining"). The URL of the page is: > > http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/1998-06/msg00626.html > > I hope this helps. > Sorry Chris, I am getting a little behind in spell checking all the > archived messages posted to this list :-) STOP! Right now and hier ! I DISALLOW you and any other to spell check or modyfy any of my messages or any quoting thereof. Jawollja ! Just in case, the rare possibility of a spelling error might occure, zis is no error it iz intenzional and an act of an in-duh-vie-dual! Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 1 13:37:56 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: TI Silent 700 In-Reply-To: <003f01be6087$70f97280$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Message-ID: <199903011838.TAA11323@horus.mch.sni.de> > The next question is: Anyone know where I could find the thermal paper for > this > thing? I've got a good sized roll of it in the machine, and a spare roll > still > in the wrapper, but my guess is that as time goes on, it's only going to > become > more and more difficult to find. Anyone know if thermal FAX machine paper > in > roll form would work? Fax paper works well on the 700's Maybe you have to take some meters off until the roll fits. I've done the same with mine. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Mar 1 12:40:29 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: Novice prospectors guide In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301093150.00cda720@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Mar 1, 1999 09:31:50 am" Message-ID: <199903011840.MAA08893@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > At 10:40 AM 2/27/99 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > >Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >>Anything with the word Terak on it, that isnt from Star Trek Deep > >>Space Nine, is a collectable. > > Oh, you're just saying that to inflate the value of your Teraks. :-) Well, they are historically significant too. They were the first true microcomputers or something like that (by which I mean a complete integrated graphics capable monitor & computer combination), and probably the first to have a menu driven operating system (using single character commands). And yes, I realize I just opened myself up to about thirty replies, each claiming Perq or SUN or Xerox, or whoever your favorite manufacturer is, actually was the first to have feature XXX in their operating system ;) -Lawrence LeMay From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Mar 1 12:41:34 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: DG manuals for sale. Message-ID: <199903011841.NAA01555@golden.net> How to Maintain the Nova (1969) - US$35 CS/20 Illustrated Parts Breakdown - 016-000681-00 - US$10 Nova 800 Technical Manual - 015-000004-02 & 016-000016-01 - US$20 Nova 830 Nova 840 Technical Manual - 015-000039-00 (some handwriting in it) - US$15 Nova 840 Technical Manual - 015 000020-01 - US$20 Nova 1220 Technical Manual - 015-000011-04 - US$20 SuperNova Computer Technical Manual - 015-000008-01 - US$20 microNOVA Board Computer MBC/1 Data Manual - US$5 microNOVA Integrated Circuits Data Manual - US$5 An Introduction to Microproducts and the Micron Operating System - US$5 Microproducts Hardware Systems Reference - US$10 MP/OS Utilities Reference - US$8 MP/100 Computer System - US$8 Communications Interfaces and Character Device Controllers - US$5 Input/Output and Interfacing (Microproducts) - US$3 Sensor I/O - US$3 Disk and Diskette Drives - US$3 MPT/100 Computer System I/O Programmer's Reference - US$8 All items are in excellent condition unless otherwise noted. Prices do not include shipping. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Mar 1 12:52:35 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:37 2005 Subject: vaxstation 3100 scsi cables Message-ID: <199903011852.LAA03171@calico.litterbox.com> This one is of special interest to Tim Shoppa, but I figured the rest of the vax lovers here would be interested too. I just ordered an external SCSI cable for my VaxStation 3100 model 40 - which everyone said was terribly expensive due to it being a wierd connector. I ordered it from 1-800-digital and they want $58(us) + tax. For those with 3100 model 40s (it changes from model to model) the part number is 17-02-008-02. Generally speaking this is the second time I've ordered formerly VERY expensive parts through 1-800-digital and gotten them for a fraction of the price people were quoted in the bad old days. If you have DEC hardware and need some wierdo proprietary pieces for it - simms, cables, etc - I would encourage you to call them and get a current quote on the prices. It's been speculated that what's happening is Compaq is unloading the spares for post-end-of-life DEC stuff, so you might want to do it soon. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From emu at ecubics.com Mon Mar 1 12:52:27 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 Message-ID: <19990301185242.AAA24653@2Cust55.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Stan, ---------- > From: ss@allegro.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 > Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 11:20 AM > I have one question...if you read the DEC/Compaq license > agreement at: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/license_terms.html > you'll see that the agreement is only for one year. > > What happens after one year? You sign up again ;-)) Same as in the old hobbyist license ... cheers, emanuel From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 13:02:13 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DABA6E.BDB3CA27@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Hmmm, with all the DEC handbooks being mentioned here, why do you have a > problem with telling people the handbook is available? Somehow, it > seems like harassing people who post ebay auctions (and other items > elsewhere) really doesn't do a bit of good except to provide a bit of > irritation. I thought we'd been through this before. The only thing advertising an auction does is encourage a bidding war and drives the price up. This benefits the seller, and nobody else. Are you suggesting that somebody else might deserve the item more than the people who had already spotted it and/or bid on it? If somebody mentions something here that was offered via Usenet or some other sales outlet, then the advantage would have gone to anybody who had been actively looking for the item and had spotted it earlier. Given that you're a frequent seller on ebay, I can only guess at your motivation for bringing this up again. Surely you're aware that ebay slants the advantage toward the seller (the reserve trap door, the silly proxy system, national advertising, etc.), that prices of classic computing stuff on ebay is spiraling out of control, and that buyers could use a break. -- Doug From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 1 13:04:49 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 Message-ID: <990301140449.21c006ac@trailing-edge.com> >I have one question...if you read the DEC/Compaq license >agreement at: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/license_terms.html >you'll see that the agreement is only for one year. >What happens after one year? The license PAK's you get issued expires after one year. At this point, you re-register with DECUS and they issue you a set of new PAK's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 13:05:55 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <36DABA6E.BDB3CA27@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301130555.00f855e0@vpwisfirewall> At 02:02 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Are you suggesting that somebody >else might deserve the item more than the people who had already spotted >it and/or bid on it? Are you suggesting that the seller doesn't deserve the chance to get the highest price they can find? - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 1 13:20:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 In-Reply-To: <990301140449.21c006ac@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Mar 1, 99 02:04:49 pm Message-ID: <199903011920.LAA23926@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/139ee759/attachment.ksh From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 13:22:33 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301130555.00f855e0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > Are you suggesting that the seller doesn't deserve the chance to get the > highest price they can find? I'm suggesting that the seller already has the advantage. Why increase it by turning this list into an advertising medium? If you spot something that you think somebody would want, why not tell that person on an individual basis rather than fueling a bidding frenzy by tossing meat to a pack of wolves? (No offense to actual wolves intended. No meat was harmed during the posting of this message.) -- Doug From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 13:31:17 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990301130555.00f855e0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301133117.00f8dc10@vpwisfirewall> At 02:22 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > >> Are you suggesting that the seller doesn't deserve the chance to get the >> highest price they can find? > >I'm suggesting that the seller already has the advantage. Why increase it >by turning this list into an advertising medium? You mean the seller has the advantage because they own the pile, or that if they advertise cheaply (like on eBay) they're certain to find at least one buyer? I'd hate to see the list become polluted with irrelevant postings, but so far it hasn't been too bad. Someone could always start another list with filtered eBay postings relevant to classic computers. If eBay doesn't have agent searches that send daily results to you by e-mail, it should. >If you spot something that you think somebody would want, why not tell >that person on an individual basis rather than fueling a bidding frenzy >by tossing meat to a pack of wolves? (No offense to actual wolves >intended. No meat was harmed during the posting of this message.) I figure that if it's on eBay, wolves and idiots will find it regardless. There's no sense shooting the first messenger, if just over the hill there are thousands of messengers and potential buyers. It's like trying to keep a really cool web site "to yourself." It doesn't make any sense, and it's futile. - John From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 13:44:41 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:38 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301133117.00f8dc10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > You mean the seller has the advantage because they own the pile, or that > if they advertise cheaply (like on eBay) they're certain to find at > least one buyer? I've already listed a few way ebay slants the advantage towards the seller. > I'd hate to see the list become polluted with irrelevant postings, but > so far it hasn't been too bad. Someone could always start another list > with filtered eBay postings relevant to classic computers. If eBay > doesn't have agent searches that send daily results to you by e-mail, it > should. I'd like to think that part of the reason the ebay noise level is pretty low here is because we've already had this discussion, and the list you recommend has already been created. Those who haven't yet mastered the art of efficiently using ebay's search engine can listen to Marvin post his arbitrary list by sending a "subscribe ccauction" message to majordomo@nut.net. > I figure that if it's on eBay, wolves and idiots will find it regardless. > There's no sense shooting the first messenger, if just over the hill > there are thousands of messengers and potential buyers. It's like > trying to keep a really cool web site "to yourself." It doesn't > make any sense, and it's futile. You're saying we're on a slipery slope, so why not slide all the way down? I'd guess there are a few thousand listings on ebay that might be interesting to one or more list members on any given day. It wouldn't be too hard for me to write a little application to give you a sense of the fire hose you're asking to be turned on :-) I don't want to hide ebay. They're at www.ebay.com. They have a very nice search engine and lots of good stuff. Please don't duplicate their site here. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 13:59:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301133117.00f8dc10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > I'd hate to see the list become polluted with irrelevant postings, > but so far it hasn't been too bad. Someone could always start another > list with filtered eBay postings relevant to classic computers. > If eBay doesn't have agent searches that send daily results to you > by e-mail, it should. Shucks, I thought we went through all this about 4 weeks ago and a separate list WAS created just for this very purpose? I must've been smoking too much dope again I guess to have hallucinated that. > I figure that if it's on eBay, wolves and idiots will find it regardless. > There's no sense shooting the first messenger, if just over the hill > there are thousands of messengers and potential buyers. It's like > trying to keep a really cool web site "to yourself." It doesn't > make any sense, and it's futile. That's not true. Many times there will be some item sitting in a back corner of ebay that nobody but you finds, and you end up getting it cheaply. Wouldn't it suck if you found that really cool such & such that you've always wanted on ebay, and its one day left and nobody has bid, so you place a bid and are all set to win it for $2, then some joker comes along who, not really interested in it himself, posts it to classiccmp and now 15 people bid it up to $300. That's what Doug is talking about. Its a double egded sword really. But anyway, the point is an alternate discussion group was created for ebay postings. It annoys me to see them posted here. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 1 14:37:16 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter Message-ID: <199903012037.MAA11398@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/ea56aa91/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 12:38:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Thoughts on Taking Inventory In-Reply-To: <199903010256.AA12673@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Feb 28, 99 09:56:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/b207d736/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 12:42:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: S-100 Mystery board In-Reply-To: <01BE636D.07097D00@slip-32-100-187-34.oh.us.ibm.net> from "Barry A. Watzman" at Feb 28, 99 10:19:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/1f24c019/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 12:56:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990301090921.09d772dc@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 1, 99 09:09:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 532 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/d353319c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 12:59:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990301100419.2faf5048@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 1, 99 10:04:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 658 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/de796ec9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 13:05:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: KA630 CNF? In-Reply-To: <199903011222.AA12094@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 1, 99 07:22:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1116 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/d3e5326a/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 1 14:38:08 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Tape drive identified! Message-ID: <4.1.19990301122122.00a2c9f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Thanks to everyone and some additional snooping the tape drive is indeed an Exabyte 8200 8MM SCSI tape drive. It is connected to a SCSI board labelled "TD Systems Inc" "VIK/QTO #2719" and a rom labelled: "Viking Q/B A3.1" (presumably QBus) Now to see what OSes support the board and if I can find docs ... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 13:06:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: HP85 Available In-Reply-To: <199903011225.AA13487@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 1, 99 07:25:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 502 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/74af1bd9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 13:36:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software In-Reply-To: <01be63f3$15638900$9101eac5@tiger> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Mar 1, 99 09:52:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1196 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/d0f9d340/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 1 14:46:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DAFCBB.609088EB@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > seems like harassing people who post ebay auctions (and other items > > elsewhere) really doesn't do a bit of good except to provide a bit of > > irritation. > > I thought we'd been through this before. The only thing advertising an > auction does is encourage a bidding war and drives the price up. This > benefits the seller, and nobody else. Are you suggesting that somebody > else might deserve the item more than the people who had already spotted > it and/or bid on it? I am suggesting that if sellers don't see prices that get their attention, some of this stuff would never be posted, and would very likely end up recycled. Is that what you are after; to have people not even bother to post stuff and recycle or dumpster it instead? What affect do you think the VCF might be having on the collecting of computers? I'm sure Sam gets leads (since he has posted some/most/all of them here) and without the publicity that was generated by VCF, that would not have happened. > If somebody mentions something here that was offered via Usenet or some > other sales outlet, then the advantage would have gone to anybody who had > been actively looking for the item and had spotted it earlier. > > Given that you're a frequent seller on ebay, I can only guess at your > motivation for bringing this up again. Surely you're aware that ebay > slants the advantage toward the seller (the reserve trap door, the > silly proxy system, national advertising, etc.), that prices of classic > computing stuff on ebay is spiraling out of control, and that buyers could > use a break. *Major* distortion of my selling status is not appreciated. First of all, I have rarely sold any classic computer stuff on ebay. Second, ebay in and of itself is an advantage to *both* buyers and sellers (and that has been stated many times on the ebay boards) since stuff appears there that some people have never seen, and probably would never see excepting a venue like ebay. Trying to discourage sellers from listing (that I assume must be what you are trying to do since why sell anything if it is just to be given away) doesn't now seem IMNSHO a very good thing to do. Do you *really* think that the Altairs, Poptronics issues, S100 stuff, etc., etc., etc. would even be posted on ebay if the prices they might command were not available? It sounds to me like you prefer to shoot yourself in the foot. Since you seem to really dislike the concept of ebay, what do you think is a better idea? From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Mar 1 14:50:49 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software Message-ID: <01be6425$304ef100$9101eac5@tiger> >I have the data books on the T9000 chip (one on the hardware, one on the >instruction set), but they're nearly 500 pages each, so rather >impractical to copy. > Well, he didn't really provide me with much information. I just sent him another email indicating exactly what he has (i.e., software, boards, docs, etc) That way, I can easily see if I can get him up and running. >IMS cards sound like INMOS, of course. I can't find the B013 in the data >book, though. It's not an ethernet TRAM (B407 or B431, I think), and I don't >think it's part of the B300 ethernet interface system. > I never seen or even heard of an IMSB013 board. I figured it was a modified B300 or ethernet tram. >> transputer motherboard that looks like a TMB12 from Transtech. He also >> has all the power supplies and the case. > >Probably a clone of something INMOS, or at least close to it. Is this a >board that takes TRAMs, or what? What host bus does it use? > The TMB12 is a 12-slot tram board from transtech, similar to the B008 from INMOS. He said it looked like it but used C012 crossbar switches instead. I got to see if I can get more info from him. Ram From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 15:05:27 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DAFCBB.609088EB@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301150527.00f85470@vpwisfirewall> At 12:46 PM 3/1/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Since you seem to really dislike the concept of ebay, what do you think is a >better idea? Obviously, some kind of system to validate the Honest Intentions of a buyer or a seller, and a top-secret to route sales only to those who are Pure enough to bid. Everyone else is driving up the price unnecessarily. Also, all actions of those with Honest Intentions never have intended consequences, like alerting CNN's viewers to the coolness of collecting old computers. :-) - John From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 1 15:05:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DB010B.D450E81E@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > That's not true. Many times there will be some item sitting in a back > corner of ebay that nobody but you finds, and you end up getting it > cheaply. Wouldn't it suck if you found that really cool such & such that > you've always wanted on ebay, and its one day left and nobody has bid, so > you place a bid and are all set to win it for $2, then some joker comes > along who, not really interested in it himself, posts it to classiccmp and > now 15 people bid it up to $300. > > That's what Doug is talking about. Its a double egded sword really. And the other side of that sword is that without awareness, stuff gets thrown away. Someone would have to have their intelligence turned off at the moment to think that the pricing that some items have received on ebay has not encouraged other similar stuff to be posted for sale. > But anyway, the point is an alternate discussion group was created for > ebay postings. It annoys me to see them posted here. Take a look at what started this whole thing. If Doug had merely replied that another list had been created for ebay postings, I would have no problem with that and the matter would have most likely been dropped. Right now, I am dealing with rl issues (not on this list) where highly talented people are not getting involved because of the politics of the situation. When I start to see similar situations begin to arise on this list more than once, I *will* respond. FWIW, the charter of this list would not ban ebay (or any other classic computer) related issues, and any attempts to discourage that type of listing (including usenet postings) are off topic. From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Mar 1 15:03:02 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Tape drive identified! Message-ID: <02b001be6427$534b2b90$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I have the docs on that board and additional info on hidden things in the setup for it. With a PAL change it can be a disk and tape controller as well. If we can find some blanks I could make a copy for you. Dan >Thanks to everyone and some additional snooping the tape drive is indeed an >Exabyte 8200 8MM SCSI tape drive. It is connected to a SCSI board labelled > "TD Systems Inc" > "VIK/QTO #2719" >and a rom labelled: > "Viking Q/B A3.1" >(presumably QBus) > >Now to see what OSes support the board and if I can find docs ... >--Chuck > > From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 1 15:23:47 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301130555.00f855e0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Are you suggesting that somebody > >else might deserve the item more than the people who had already spotted > >it and/or bid on it? > > Are you suggesting that the seller doesn't deserve the chance to > get the highest price they can find? > > - John I think what he is suggesting is that the seller does not deserve a 'shill' or a 'tout'! - don From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 15:33:33 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DAFCBB.609088EB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Since you seem to really dislike the concept of ebay, what do you think > is a better idea? I love the idea of ebay. I think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I also love the idea of a classic computer discussion group. And I like being able to choose which one I want to tune into at a given time. I don't discuss classic computers when I'm on ebay, and I don't want to see ebay ads when I'm discussing classic computers. If you're really worried about items not finding homes, then feel free to post the ebay ad here *after* the auction ends with no bidders. -- Doug From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Mar 1 15:34:12 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: VCF? Somebody important wants to know In-Reply-To: <01be6425$304ef100$9101eac5@tiger> Message-ID: <000001be642b$3fcb1e00$73f438cb@a.davie> Sellam Posting to the list because it's of general interest anyway. Jon Titus, inventor of the Mark 8, has asked me for more information about the Vintage Computer Fest; the website doesn't seem terribly up-to-date. His question: when and where is the next VCF? Sounds like he's considering the invitation I passed on! A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 16:10:07 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter In-Reply-To: <199903012037.MAA11398@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Anyone heard of the old newsletter Cursor? Is there anyone out there > with backissues that might be persuaded to photocopy a few? Cursor. That reminds me of that TV show in the early 80s. Wasn't it called "Automan"? It was this dude who somehow got transmutated with his computer and was like a digital superhero. His sidekick was a flashing star called Cursor. It didn't last long. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 16:12:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: OT: Need info on Motorola CyberSurfer cable modem Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get technical information on the Motorola CyberSurfer cable modem? I want to know if there's any way to hack it to do weird stuff. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 16:21:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB010B.D450E81E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > That's what Doug is talking about. Its a double egded sword really. > > And the other side of that sword is that without awareness, stuff gets > thrown away. Someone would have to have their intelligence turned off at the > moment to think that the pricing that some items have received on ebay has > not encouraged other similar stuff to be posted for sale. I guess were just hopeless romantics then. I want to see the stuff become available to those who would appreciate it, and not just come up for sale because "Hey, I can make a $1000 on this old computer". Its the rape and pillage of this once serene hobby of collecting retired computers and bringing some life back into them for fun that I don't care for. I never got into this for the money. > FWIW, the charter of this list would not ban ebay (or any other classic > computer) related issues, and any attempts to discourage that type of > listing (including usenet postings) are off topic. I'm off-topic! You're off-topic!! This whole mailing list is off-topic!!! ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 16:26:02 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <199903012226.AA05226@world.std.com> >I am suggesting that if sellers don't see prices that get their >attention, some of this stuff would never be posted, and would very >likely end up recycled. Is that what you are after; to have people not >even bother to post stuff and recycle or dumpster it instead? What >affect do you think the VCF might be having on the collecting of >computers? I'm sure Sam gets leads (since he has posted some/most/all of >them here) and without the publicity that was generated by VCF, that >would not have happened. I'm sorry, but this list should NOT be used by someone who isn't satisfied by the price they are getting at Ebay... If you were at a real auction and didn't like the price, what would you do, tell everyone to hold on while you went outside and solicted more people from off the street to bid? Please...! Also, if the person is so interested in money that the ONLY alternative is that they will dumpster it, I don't want to give them ANY business, other than to raid their dumpster... Please keep postings about ebay off this pure list... go to where it is wanted... otherwise you are no better than any of the spammers we fight on a regular basis... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 1 16:27:36 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <36DB010B.D450E81E@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301162736.00f8b100@vpwisfirewall> At 02:21 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Its the rape and >pillage of this once serene hobby of collecting retired computers and >bringing some life back into them for fun that I don't care for. > >I never got into this for the money. No, you got into it for the groupies and the fame. ;-) Or maybe you got into it because you saw highly under-appreciated old computers selling for next to nothing, which is another way of saying that you're wise and anticipated a market that hadn't reached its full potential. - John From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 16:29:55 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter Message-ID: <199903012229.AA09097@world.std.com> >Cursor. That reminds me of that TV show in the early 80s. Wasn't it >called "Automan"? It was this dude who somehow got transmutated with his >computer and was like a digital superhero. His sidekick was a flashing >star called Cursor. It didn't last long. Good memory... yep.. "Automan" - a holographic projection which was called Automan because "He's the world's first truly automatic man." (I'm not going to go there...) Anyway, the actor who played Automan is the one doing the Xyban (Zyban?) ads on TV... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 1 16:32:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: KA630 CNF? In-Reply-To: <199903011222.AA12094@world.std.com> (mbg@world.std.com) References: <199902282053.AA01168@world.std.com> <199903011222.AA12094@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990301223201.3932.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Yeah, it would... to be able to use it, there would have to be enough > Q/CD slots to have the main processor, then the KA650 and its memory. > With an 11/83 and 4mb, that leaves no slots in a BA23. Even if I > cut back to one 2mb memory board, that only leaves one slot, which > the CPU would occupy, with no room for a memory board for it... Sure, but there are other backplanes with more CD slots. Doesn't the BA11-S have eight or nine of them? From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 1 16:39:36 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter In-Reply-To: <199903012229.AA09097@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 1, 99 05:29:55 pm Message-ID: <199903012239.OAA12786@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/44192a91/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 16:39:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: VCF 3.0 Preview In-Reply-To: <000001be642b$3fcb1e00$73f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > Posting to the list because it's of general interest anyway. > Jon Titus, inventor of the Mark 8, has asked me for more information about > the Vintage Computer Fest; the website doesn't seem terribly up-to-date. > His question: when and where is the next VCF? Sounds like he's considering > the invitation I passed on! Oh cool! Well, since this was posted publicly I'll reply publicly about this year's VCF. Yes, the web site is not very informative at the moment. I've been meaning to do a lot of work on it, such as get the pictures from VCF 2.0 on there, add some more resources, etc. But I've been holding off since my current ISP is charging me up the ass for excessive bandwidth usage, and I haven't gotten around to setting up my own server to take advantage of my cable modem yet. I've also been real busy with life's little issues. So anyway, VCF 3.0 is tentatively scheduled for this September at the same venue as last year (Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California). I will hopefully have dates nailed down by the end of this week or sometime next week for sure. The dates I wanted (Sept 25&26) are already taken up by some other convention so unfortunately it won't be the last weekend in September as I wanted it to be, unless I decide to change the venue. We have a lot of cool stuff planned for this year. It will be bigger and better than last year, and I mean it! More money and more people will be involved to make sure everything goes very smoothly. We already have some funky projects in the works. We'll definitely be doing the Nerd Trivia Challenge again. That was a big hit last year and a whole lot of fun. The scheduling will be different this year. Instead of the exhibition and flea market and speakers going on simultaneously all day, the speakers will be during the first half of the day, maybe with multiple sessions going on at the same time, and the exhibition and flea market will be open from maybe 2pm until 5 or 6pm. This will give everyone a chance to both hear the speakers they admire (John Titus perhaps) and view the exhibition and shop the flea market without worrying about missing out on something. If anyone has any suggestions for speakers they would like to see at the VCF, please e-mail me with them. If you are planning to exhibit at this year's VCF, stay tuned. In a few weeks I'll have the guidelines for exhibiting. The exhibit this year will be more of an indivudual thing, rather than what it has been which was a dozen or so various collectors exhibiting a bunch of machines. I'd much rather have many different individuals exhibiting one or two of their favorite machines. And this year we plan to give away prizes for the best exhibits, along with a general door prize (last year was an IMSAI 8080, don't know what we'll give away this year). A good example of the exhibits I would like to see are Doug Coward's wooden replica of a DigiComp 1 and Jordan Ruderman's excellent Sol-20 exhibit. I haven't discussed anything with The Computer Museum History Center yet but I hope they will decide to participate again with an exhibit and also a tour to their visible storage warehouse. I'm currently soliciting for sponsorship so if anyone has an employer that wants some cheap visibility amongst hundreds of Silicon Valley types then please pass the word along to them. Also, I will begin renting out flea market booths in a couple weeks. If you plan to sell at VCF 3.0 then let me know. So stay tuned, VCF 3.0 is on the way! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 1 16:44:23 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990301224423.4029.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Is 'six' how you write SS0 ? > > That how many hands I have (same as most on this list, I guess), and I > had almost no trouble putting the 41 card reader back together... Are you sure you're talking about the *same* HP-41 card reader as the rest of us? :-) I have two hands, but maybe they're all thumbs, because I had a devil of a time getting the thing together. Maybe you'd care to share your secrets? From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 1 16:43:21 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DB1809.BCC1E516@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I guess were just hopeless romantics then. I want to see the stuff become > available to those who would appreciate it, and not just come up for sale > because "Hey, I can make a $1000 on this old computer". Its the rape and > pillage of this once serene hobby of collecting retired computers and > bringing some life back into them for fun that I don't care for. > > I never got into this for the money. I think being a hopeless romantic is a good thing! If stuff gets thrown away because it is perceived as junk, then nobody gets a chance at it. One thing I find *very* interesting is that when I receive an offer of equipment/docs/etc. and I tell the person up front what it might be worth, more frequently than not, I end up with the stuff anyway at no charge. Right now, I have a lead on a SWTP S-50 bus machine, a mini in a rack (Data General?), and other equipment of the same vintage. When I told them what it might be worth, it was still offered to me. I have posted a number of times the same situation, i.e. the IBM 5100 as one for-instance. Most people I know are far more interested in a good home for their equipment than in selling this stuff just for the money. BTW, it probably needs to be added that this is a two way street; while I frequently talk about receiving this stuff, I don't frequently talk about the interaction that made the receiving situation possible in the first place. I do spend a fair amount of time helping others with no particular idea of getting something back in return. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 1 16:48:23 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: WSESD (aka Sigma) ESDI QBus controller Message-ID: <4.1.19990301144356.00c07d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> So I just got of the phone with David Webster: David Webster Phone +1-408-353-5252 Webster Computer Corporation Tollfree 1-800-5WEBSTER 16040 Redwood Lodge Road Fax +1-408-353-5253 Los Gatos, CA 95033-9260, USA http://www.webstercomputer.com Dave's company designed the WQESD controller and WOMBAT software and sublicenced it to Sigma and Qualogy. He's selling a copy of the manual to me. (Yippee!!) Since some of you have offered to buy my "other" controller I asked him if they had any left and he said he suspects they do. So if you need a Qbus ESDI disk controller card you might give him an email or a call. I have no idea what he would sell them for (didn't ask) but hey, you could get a 'new' one. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 1 16:42:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: HP85 Available In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990301224221.4008.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > That's because it was... there is a different command to display the > > output rather than print it... > > I believe that command was 'disp'. > > The disp command on the HP71 and HP75 was just like print only it used > the display rather than the printer. And there are statements something like "printer is" and "display is" that allow you to reassign the I/O devices. Unfortunately I don't remember the details, and I don't have my -71 manuals handy. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 15:16:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software In-Reply-To: <01be6425$304ef100$9101eac5@tiger> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Mar 1, 99 03:50:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1032 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/60b0e268/attachment.ksh From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Mar 1 16:56:02 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: vaxstation 3100 scsi cables In-Reply-To: <199903011852.LAA03171@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > > I just ordered an external SCSI cable for my VaxStation 3100 model 40 - which > everyone said was terribly expensive due to it being a wierd connector. > I ordered it from 1-800-digital and they want $58(us) + tax. For those > with 3100 model 40s (it changes from model to model) the part number is > 17-02-008-02. > I'd also like to point DECheads looking for cables to a place called SeaCoast Digital, at http://www.seadec.com/. They have some dirt-cheap prices on DEC cables. I'm sure you -don't- want to hear this now, Jim, but I've ordered the exact same cable through seadec myself, and it was $28.00 (sorry!). They're a very good source for that kind of thing. I can't vouch for their other parts, as I've not compared prices for memory or option boards etc. But definitely check them out if you need cables. -Seth -- "You know, if there's one thing more destructive Seth J. Morabito than a hydrogen bomb, it's a hydrogen bomb strapped sethm@loomcom.com to the back of a MANLY MAN!!!" [James "Kibo" Parry] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 16:58:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301162736.00f8b100@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 02:21 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Its the rape and > >pillage of this once serene hobby of collecting retired computers and > >bringing some life back into them for fun that I don't care for. > > > >I never got into this for the money. > > No, you got into it for the groupies and the fame. ;-) > > Or maybe you got into it because you saw highly under-appreciated > old computers selling for next to nothing, which is another way of > saying that you're wise and anticipated a market that hadn't > reached its full potential. Well, since you brought it up, there were two reasons for the VCF: 1) I needed a way to turn this hobby that was sucking tons of money out of my pocket into a tax write-off and, 2) Upon realizing there were many, many people interested in this hobby (that realization came when I first subscribed to the newly formed ClassicCmp mailing list) I wanted to create a yearly convention where collectors could gather to share their hobby with others, see and hear the people who made the stuff they collect, and be THE place for finding that one computer thing you've been looking for all year. In fact this was initially the primary motivation...to have stuff come to me rather than having to go out searching for it. In reality, what happens is that by the time the VCF opens, I'm so broke from organizing everything that all I can do is drool over what I see in the flea market and envy the people who actually get to take home the goodies. So far, as far as being THE venue for buying/selling/trading old computer things, I say that the VCF is second only to eBay. But the advantage of the VCF is that you can get stuff MUCH cheaper than you would have to pay on eBay. Last year all sorts of excellent stuff got sold for very reasonable prices. Due to anonimity concerns I can't be specific, but an Apple 1 was sold at VCF 2.0 for a franction of what it would have went for on eBay (no, don't e-mail me privately for more info either, I can't say any more :) And of course I'm very wise and anticipated a market that hadn't yet reached its full potential. And the chicks really dig it. So there you have it, the real story. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 1 16:58:18 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: <199903012226.AA05226@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36DB1B8A.C865B39A@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > Also, if the person is so interested in money that the ONLY alternative > is that they will dumpster it, I don't want to give them ANY business, > other than to raid their dumpster... And if you don't know who, where, or what they are dumpstering? I saw a whole pile of 11/23, 11/34, and a lot more stuff I didn't recognize being given and then thrown away. At that point, I stripped what DEC cards I could for the gold on the circuit cards (true.) At that point, I had no idea that people actually might be interested in that stuff. I don't think that is what you are after. As the old saying goes, ignorance can be corrected. BTW, I still have those cards someplace, so I didn't actually go through with cutting the edge connectors off for the gold. > Please keep postings about ebay off this pure list... go to where it > is wanted... otherwise you are no better than any of the spammers > we fight on a regular basis... Megan, I highly disagree with your last statement. The ebay postings are on-topic whether they are of interest to you personally or not. This is a diverse group of people on this list, and for any one group to say that anothers classic interest should be excluded from this list is not right. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 1 17:00:34 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Doug! John! Marvin! Message-ID: <199903012300.PAA26184@saul5.u.washington.edu> Your debate about eBay filled up about 1/4 of my mail this morning. It's obvious that you're at an impasse of opinion. The messages on the subject are funny but the humor is the desparate kind. Since there IS another list (as Megan and others pointed out) could you find some way to tone down the traffic? I swear, a few more of these arguments and I'll have enough data to create an eBay-argument-generating program! :) -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 17:20:14 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB1B8A.C865B39A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Megan, I highly disagree with your last statement. The ebay postings are > on-topic whether they are of interest to you personally or not. This is a > diverse group of people on this list, and for any one group to say that > anothers classic interest should be excluded from this list is not right. Oh, come on. Take this to it's logical extreme. There are 1.7 million items listed on ebay today. Let's say 1% of that might represent the union of various interests represented on this list. That's 17,000 items a day. It's your duty to ensure that any item of interest to anybody on this list gets posted here. Else it just wouldn't be right. Alternatively, everybody has the ability to search ebay for themselves. That's why it's there. That's not what this list is for, but perhaps Derek could clarify this matter with a little policy. -- Doug From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Mar 1 17:31:30 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: from Doug at "Mar 1, 1999 06:20:14 pm" Message-ID: <199903012331.RAA09248@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Megan, I highly disagree with your last statement. The ebay postings are > > on-topic whether they are of interest to you personally or not. This is a > > diverse group of people on this list, and for any one group to say that > > anothers classic interest should be excluded from this list is not right. > > Oh, come on. Take this to it's logical extreme. There are 1.7 million > items listed on ebay today. Let's say 1% of that might represent the > union of various interests represented on this list. That's 17,000 items > a day. Illogical. Your facts are uncoordinated. -Lawrence LeMay From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Mar 1 17:32:05 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: vaxstation 3100 scsi cables In-Reply-To: from "Seth J. Morabito" at Mar 01, 1999 02:56:02 PM Message-ID: <199903012332.QAA04915@calico.litterbox.com> > > > > > I just ordered an external SCSI cable for my VaxStation 3100 model 40 - which > > everyone said was terribly expensive due to it being a wierd connector. > > I ordered it from 1-800-digital and they want $58(us) + tax. For those > > with 3100 model 40s (it changes from model to model) the part number is > > 17-02-008-02. > > > > > I'd also like to point DECheads looking for cables to a place called > SeaCoast Digital, at http://www.seadec.com/. They have some dirt-cheap > prices on DEC cables. I'm sure you -don't- want to hear this now, Jim, > but I've ordered the exact same cable through seadec myself, and it was > $28.00 (sorry!). They're a very good source for that kind of thing. > I can't vouch for their other parts, as I've not compared prices for > memory or option boards etc. But definitely check them out if you need > cables. > > -Seth I'm looking at their web site now and they want 50 bucks for the same cable. 35 bucks for the 3 foot version. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 17:38:13 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <199903012331.RAA09248@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Illogical. > > Your facts are uncoordinated. Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Spock :-) ObCC: I have a Bogart Magnetic Core Storage System. I've heard "Bogart" used in conjunction with CDC before. Does anybody know what, if any, relationship there is? -- Doug From rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu Mon Mar 1 18:13:27 1999 From: rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software Message-ID: <01BE6417.BE6EA420.rmeena01@utopia.poly.edu> >Err... The crosspoint switch is the C004. The C012 is related to the >C011, and is a transputer link adapter to a normal computer bus. It's a >bit like a UART for transputer links (and the normal computer side looks >awfully similar to a DEC DL11 ;-)). Oops, boy is my face red :-) I meant it used the one specific to the T9000 which I don't remember off the top of my head. I guess I will have to look it up to get further info (is may be the C104 or such). Ram From nfields at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 1 18:49:49 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DB35AD.EF14F971@ix.netcom.com> Ok, I'm sorry here, but I am going to step in, as the person that posted about the e-bay item. My motivation was VERY simple. I saw, a manual that I had just read, was hard to come by. I saw, that no one had bidded on this item, and that the price was 1 dollar! Not overpriced like many items, but ONE DOLLAR. I felt, that there might be someone on this list, that could benefit from this manual, and MIGHT JUST WANT TO KNOW about this chance to purchase this manual. If you feel this is wrong, I am terribly sorry for bothering your e-mail with my post. But I am sincerely tired, of trying to pass on information that I feel others honestly may want to know about, and frankly getting hell over it. Sorry to those that this doesn't apply too, but I think this needs to be said. Noel Doug wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Hmmm, with all the DEC handbooks being mentioned here, why do you have a > > problem with telling people the handbook is available? Somehow, it > > seems like harassing people who post ebay auctions (and other items > > elsewhere) really doesn't do a bit of good except to provide a bit of > > irritation. > > I thought we'd been through this before. The only thing advertising an > auction does is encourage a bidding war and drives the price up. This > benefits the seller, and nobody else. Are you suggesting that somebody > else might deserve the item more than the people who had already spotted > it and/or bid on it? > > If somebody mentions something here that was offered via Usenet or some > other sales outlet, then the advantage would have gone to anybody who had > been actively looking for the item and had spotted it earlier. > > Given that you're a frequent seller on ebay, I can only guess at your > motivation for bringing this up again. Surely you're aware that ebay > slants the advantage toward the seller (the reserve trap door, the > silly proxy system, national advertising, etc.), that prices of classic > computing stuff on ebay is spiraling out of control, and that buyers could > use a break. > > -- Doug From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 1 18:52:26 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board In-Reply-To: <19990228202304.28590.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 06:25:09 -0800) Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> I have a Central Point Option Board, still in the box though, I haven't >> tried it yet. It says 400k and 800k all formats, but I thought that was >> just Mac formats. Anybody know if this board had later software to handle >> 1.44 MB floppies? > >If you want to know whether the Option Board works with a 1440K *drive*, >I don't know, but it might. I'm pretty sure the "Deluxe" model does. > >If you want to know whether the Option Board works with 1440K Macintosh >diskettes, the answer is that you don't need an Option Board for that. >The Macintosh 1440K media format (known as SuperDrive or FDHD) is exactly >the same as the PC 1440K format. All you need is suitable software. > >There is free HFS support for Linux. > >Maybe there might also be freeware or shareware to use Macintosh 1440K >diskette under DOS or Windows, but I haven't looked. Thanks, and mine is a Deluxe model. This is a good week for toys. ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 17:02:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301162736.00f8b100@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Mar 1, 99 04:27:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/b14c1c7f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 17:09:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Gooey rubber bits In-Reply-To: <19990301224423.4029.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 1, 99 10:44:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 988 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/b4ca6d8d/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 1 19:23:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: M7546 - TK50 or TK70? Message-ID: <4.1.19990301172112.00b4e490@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I realize this isn't ebay related, but could someone clue me into what the 7546 controls? The DEC site lists it as a: M7546-00 Q-BUS TAPE CNTRL, DBL 8.5 And its in my uVAX with no removable media. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 1 19:38:14 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: M7546 - TK50 or TK70? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990301172112.00b4e490@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990301173427.00be1c10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 05:23 PM 3/1/99 -0800, I wrote: >M7546-00 Q-BUS TAPE CNTRL, DBL 8.5 OK, I've confirmed that it is a TK50 controller. So the uVax without the tape drive had a TK50 at one point that was later removed. Well then it looks like I'll keep my eye out for a TK50 and a mounting skid to restore this puppy into its normal state. Another observation is that the BA23 chassis has the connectors under the control box for an RDxx drive but there doesn't seem to be a controller in the uVax for them unless this controller was integrated into the CPU card or something? Its darn difficult to see where the cables come from and go to in the narrow tower, very unusual design it seems. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 1 19:36:55 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:40 2005 Subject: Even More Stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I bet 6 months from now, 3 more people will have had the same experience >as I and others have had and will post about it here. And he'll still have a buyer lined up for the UNIX doc's, so he will only take larger offers for them. Having said that, in the last couple years he seems to have unloaded a lot of the stuff he had. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Mar 1 19:51:25 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Lucky Day II Message-ID: <001801be644f$30c58e80$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> The model number for the Monitor is 4863 (with my luck it's probably the most common one). No light pen or HD (that's where the "pretty much" comes in). I have't inventoried the software box yet but I've noticed the BASIC, DOS 2.10, IBM Writting assistant and Print shop. I'm not sure when I'll get around to setting it up. Francois >Hi, > >What is the model number on the monitor? There are two different >monitors that I know of. Do you have an extra light pen? Does it have a >hard drive? Do you want more info on IBM PCJr's? What cartridges do you >have? Which version of DOS are you using? I suggest 3.3 . Please >respond. I collect PCJr's and do have some extra parts and am in need of >a light pen. > >John Amirault > >Francois wrote: >> >> Hey, >> Not all of us can find Altairs. So I had to brag about whatever it is that I >> got. (I would prefer to brag about an Altair though) >> How many of have the IBM PCjr Carrying Case? >> Francois >> >> >Francois, >> > >> > Whatever floats your boat! >> > >> > Joe >> > >> >At 09:25 AM 2/27/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>Fine, >> >>I got a complete PCjr with pretty much all of the peripherals ever made >> for >> >>it, two joysticks, color monitor, a box of software and the carrying case. >> >>So there! >> >>Francois >> >> >> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 19:20:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: HP85 Available In-Reply-To: <19990301224221.4008.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 1, 99 10:42:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 707 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990302/644aae49/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 1 19:32:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software In-Reply-To: <01BE6417.BE6EA420.rmeena01@utopia.poly.edu> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Mar 1, 99 07:13:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 973 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990302/1cb86292/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 20:06:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > If you told me that my computers had no value at all, I'd not worry. I'd > still hunt at radio rallies looking for machines that I didn't have and > wanted to investigate. And then buy them for a few pounds. And if the > general prices go up to e-bay levels, then I'll not be able to carry on > collecting... [Doesn't matter... I've got a few dozen machines on the 'to > be repaired' pile already...] I wish they had no monetary value at all other than the few bucks it used to take at a ham fest or radio rally to convince the guy on the other side of the table to sell it to you. Oh well, those were the good old days. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Mon Mar 1 20:19:14 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: When did VC show up on IBM big iron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903020231.UAA17205@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> Well, that depends. PanValet (by Pansophic systems, originally) had version _tracking_ by line number, and you could have multiple libraries, and migrate things between them. There were similar competitive systems. Wisconsin DOT had PanValet when I arrived there in 1975. Amdahl UTS was Unix, complete with version control I imagine. Seems to me this was around about 1980. Hope that helps. Jay At 08:13 AM 2/26/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Does anyone recall when version control tools became available on IBM >mainframe OSs? > > >-- >David Wollmann >DST / DST Data Conversion >http://www.ibmhelp.com/ > >ICQ: 10742063 > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 1 19:43:34 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Tape drive identified! In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Tape drive identified!" (Mar 1, 12:38) References: <4.1.19990301122122.00a2c9f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <9903020143.ZM2277@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 1, 12:38, Chuck McManis wrote: > Subject: Tape drive identified! > Thanks to everyone and some additional snooping the tape drive is indeed an > Exabyte 8200 8MM SCSI tape drive. It is connected to a SCSI board labelled > "TD Systems Inc" > "VIK/QTO #2719" > and a rom labelled: > "Viking Q/B A3.1" > (presumably QBus) I'm pretty sure BSD2.11 supports it. I can't find the list right now, but I think that's exactly what I had in my 11/83. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 1 21:02:25 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Group Buy Closed! Thanks for participating... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301190225.0094f390@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I would like to extend a warm 'thanks!' to all of you who participated in the Teledisk Pro group buy. We've sold all our available shares. Sydex said that we definitely had to limit it to 50 people, tops, and that we've now got. I would also like to thank our list moderator (cripes, I don't even know who it is nowadays...) for allowing me to coordinate this effort on CLASSICCMP. Now the real work starts... getting the paperwork done! ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Mar 1 21:03:46 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: update on my netiquette goof In-Reply-To: <000001be63e9$8e80fb60$81f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <001d01be6459$49eba700$66f438cb@a.davie> Due to my posting the heads-up the other day, and including the phone number of the seller (we're talking Heathkit items, etc etc), the seller is not only badgering me about to whom I sent to, he also indicates he now intends to change his address and/or phone number. I think this says enough about the guy. Seeing how he's responded to my actions and full apology, I wouldn't deal with him now if you PAID me. Sellam, save me! A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Mar 1 21:17:19 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Group Buy Closed! Thanks for participating... Message-ID: <19990301.211829.277.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Bruce: Okay, so this means I still owe you $6.12 for my share, right? Jeff On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:02:25 -0800 Bruce Lane writes: > I would like to extend a warm 'thanks!' to all of you who >participated in >the Teledisk Pro group buy. > > We've sold all our available shares. Sydex said that we >definitely had to >limit it to 50 people, tops, and that we've now got. > > I would also like to thank our list moderator (cripes, I don't >even know >who it is nowadays...) for allowing me to coordinate this effort on >CLASSICCMP. > > Now the real work starts... getting the paperwork done! ;-) > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in >our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 1 21:24:38 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Nicolet rescue Message-ID: <004d01be645c$351fd500$0101a8c0@jay> Had to rescue the Nicolet computer. Still not sure if I'm going to keep it...but at least it won't go to the scrap heap. I've never seen core quite like this. Each core plane is 4 cards, about 4" by 4", with 1K on each card (4k per core module) - plus the standard xydriver and sense/inhibit. The four cards of the core assembly are joined by small pins/solder brides between the cards. Really large doughnuts :-) This machine is actually very clean inside, despite it's 1974 vintage. The back panel is unique, with most peripheral devices connecting via coax. There appears to be a home-brew mod to switch select tty (current loop) or RS232 and if RS232 either 300 or 2400 baud. Despite the grainy photo - the 8" floppy unit really has only one drive. Also got the decitek paper tape unit. If anyone is curious - pics attached. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nic80-1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/c3f98882/nic80-1.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nic80-2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25326 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/c3f98882/nic80-2.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nic80-3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/c3f98882/nic80-3.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nic298-1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990301/c3f98882/nic298-1.jpg From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Mar 1 21:28:34 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: UPDATE SMALL SEALED BID AUCTION - Microsoft Softcard In-Reply-To: References: <199902191729.LAA00489@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.5.32.19990219110512.00cbd370@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Feb Message-ID: >I'm doing a small sealed bid auction on the following: > >Microsoft Softcard (CP/M card) for Apple II computers > - Card > - Original manual in good condition, small spiral bound > - Original boot disk Just wanted to do an update. If I don't receive any more bids by tomorrow night at midnight, I'm going to close the auction early and inform the winning bidder. Just thought I should give fair warning. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From Guerney at uq.net.au Mon Mar 1 21:33:14 1999 From: Guerney at uq.net.au (Philip Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter In-Reply-To: <199903012037.MAA11398@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Anyone heard of the old newsletter Cursor? Is there anyone out there > with backissues that might be persuaded to photocopy a few? If you mean the newsletter of the Commodore Computer Users Group (Qld) then I can help. I was a member from 1984 until 1996 (President for a couple of years around the time of the fall of Commodore which saw membership fall from over 1000 to less than 100 in a few years). Anyway, I have all issues over this period and a few of the earliest which date from about 1982. So let me know which ones you want. I was Librarian for the group for a few years also, and helped maintain a large collection of newsletters from Commodore groups from all around the world which we exchanged issues with. I always thought they were fascinating, but hardly anyone borrowed them - just goes to show that I'm a bit strange. I suspect that they have all gone now. Phil Guerney in Brisbane, Australia From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 21:43:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: update on my netiquette goof In-Reply-To: <001d01be6459$49eba700$66f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > Due to my posting the heads-up the other day, and including the phone number > of the seller (we're talking Heathkit items, etc etc), the seller is not > only badgering me about to whom I sent to, he also indicates he now intends > to change his address and/or phone number. > I think this says enough about the guy. > Seeing how he's responded to my actions and full apology, I wouldn't deal > with him now if you PAID me. Sellam, save me! There's only one solution for you: change your e-mail address! :) Well, beware all ye who dare to deal with this guy. Don't say I didn't warn you. In the meantime, if he really wants to know everyone who you contacted, just have Derek do a whois on ClassicCmp and send the list to him. It'll be fun to see what he sends out to everyone. Ooh! Maybe he'll try to have us all killed since nobody must know his secret identity! P.S. I know how you can get rid of him perhaps. It involves some internet trickery. Contact me privately if interested. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Mar 1 21:58:05 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Nicolet rescue In-Reply-To: <004d01be645c$351fd500$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <199903020354.WAA26961@mail.cgocable.net> Please, no attachments! Give a address to website if anyone is insterested to look at it. Some users on List have very limited resources and some dial in by the minute pay or by hour. $$$. Sheesh, not everybody have a cablemodem, 56Kps, and fancy stuff. Some actually chose not to for good reasons which I appreciate. Wizard From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 22:07:42 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: KA630 CNF? References: <199902282053.AA01168@world.std.com> <199903011222.AA12094@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903020407.AA06935@world.std.com> >Sure, but there are other backplanes with more CD slots. Doesn't the >BA11-S have eight or nine of them? Thanks... I guess since I didn't have one, I had forgotten about them... yes, that would probably work... *Doh!* Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 22:16:12 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: <199903012226.AA05226@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903020416.AA13167@world.std.com> >Megan, I highly disagree with your last statement. The ebay postings are >on-topic whether they are of interest to you personally or not. This is a >diverse group of people on this list, and for any one group to say that >anothers classic interest should be excluded from this list is not right. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that the concensus in the last go-around of this stuff was that it was NOT desired here. That is why the other list was created. If you go against the wishes of the majority, then you are spamming us. Please take it to the other list. I'd rather read and talk about the specifics of working with our collections. Anyway, that's it for me on this... these messages are, in themselves, off topic, so if you wish to debate it further with me, I'll gladly do it off-list... but that is the end of my budget for talking about it here... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 1 22:13:36 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Nicolet rescue In-Reply-To: <199903020354.WAA26961@mail.cgocable.net> (jpero@cgocable.net) References: <199903020354.WAA26961@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <19990302041336.6088.qmail@brouhaha.com> jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > Please, no attachments! > Give a address to website if anyone is insterested to look at it. > > Sheesh, not everybody have a cablemodem, 56Kps, and fancy stuff. Some > actually chose not to for good reasons which I appreciate. I agree completely. As it happens, I have a T1 at work, a 384K DSL at home, and "fancy stuff". And I *STILL* don't want attachments. Personally, if I were running the mailing list, I'd install a filter that would *reject* any postings that contained MIME or uuencoded stuff. If you have files to share with us, please just put them on a web or FTP server, or mail them out on request only. Thanks! Eric From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 22:20:27 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: M7546 - TK50 or TK70? Message-ID: <199903020420.AA16212@world.std.com> TQK50 controller... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 22:23:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Nicolet rescue In-Reply-To: <004d01be645c$351fd500$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Jay West wrote: > Had to rescue the Nicolet computer. Still not sure if I'm going to keep > it...but at least it won't go to the scrap heap. Well if you decide to pass it on please consider me first :) > I've never seen core quite like this. Each core plane is 4 cards, about 4" > by 4", with 1K on each card (4k per core module) - plus the standard > xydriver and sense/inhibit. The four cards of the core assembly are joined > by small pins/solder brides between the cards. Really large doughnuts :-) > This machine is actually very clean inside, despite it's 1974 vintage. Yes, I call it a core "sandwich". I've got photos of each card on my Nicolet web site (still unfinished so no URL yet). The Nicolet computer could have up to 12K of core, and I have the Expansion Chassis which allows up to 24K more of memory (mine has 12K in the main CPU and 8K installed in the expansion chassis). > The back panel is unique, with most peripheral devices connecting via coax. > There appears to be a home-brew mod to switch select tty (current loop) or > RS232 and if RS232 either 300 or 2400 baud. Actually, the peripherals connect into the two very wide bus slots on the back; one is used to connect to the expansion chassis and ton mine the other goes off to a Diablo 30 removable hard disk system. The coax connectors go off to various subsystems that could be connected to the CPU. For instance, my Nicolet computer is contained within a larger desk-sized unit that includes an X-Y display (basically an oscilloscope), flat bed plotter and fast fourier transform unit. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 1 22:24:30 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: M7546 - TK50 or TK70? Message-ID: <199903020424.AA18943@world.std.com> >Another observation is that the BA23 chassis has the connectors under the >control box for an RDxx drive but there doesn't seem to be a controller >in the uVax for them unless this controller was integrated into the CPU >card or something? Its darn difficult to see where the cables come from >and go to in the narrow tower, very unusual design it seems. The controller (an RQDX1, 2 or 3) plugs into the backplane. The ribbon cable from it runs under the card cage to the bottom of the backplane, where there is a distribution board which splits the signals into connectors for cables connect to up to two hard drives, and one connector for a floppy. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Mar 1 20:07:25 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: vaxstation 3100 scsi cables Message-ID: <031e01be6464$29381100$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I have some that I got from DEC surplus new and I think I have a couple used ones for a whole lot cheaper than either of the prices for mentioned. 68 pin HD to 50 pin Centronics. Dan >> > >> > I just ordered an external SCSI cable for my VaxStation 3100 model 40 - which >> > everyone said was terribly expensive due to it being a wierd connector. >> > I ordered it from 1-800-digital and they want $58(us) + tax. For those >> > with 3100 model 40s (it changes from model to model) the part number is >> > 17-02-008-02. >> > >> >> >> I'd also like to point DECheads looking for cables to a place called >> SeaCoast Digital, at http://www.seadec.com/. They have some dirt-cheap >> prices on DEC cables. I'm sure you -don't- want to hear this now, Jim, >> but I've ordered the exact same cable through seadec myself, and it was >> $28.00 (sorry!). They're a very good source for that kind of thing. >> I can't vouch for their other parts, as I've not compared prices for >> memory or option boards etc. But definitely check them out if you need >> cables. >> >> -Seth > >I'm looking at their web site now and they want 50 bucks for the same cable. >35 bucks for the 3 foot version. > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 2 00:38:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB35AD.EF14F971@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990302003848.455f6a92@intellistar.net> Noel, No, don't stop. Keep posting your finds here. Some of us don't have hours of time to spent searching E-bay. Joe At 04:49 PM 3/1/99 -0800, you wrote: >Ok, I'm sorry here, but I am going to step in, as the person that posted about >the e-bay item. My motivation was VERY simple. I saw, a manual that I had >just read, was hard to come by. I saw, that no one had bidded on this item, >and that the price was 1 dollar! Not overpriced like many items, but ONE >DOLLAR. > >I felt, that there might be someone on this list, that could benefit from this >manual, and MIGHT JUST WANT TO KNOW about this chance to purchase this manual. > >If you feel this is wrong, I am terribly sorry for bothering your e-mail with >my post. But I am sincerely tired, of trying to pass on information that I >feel others honestly may want to know about, and frankly getting hell over it. > >Sorry to those that this doesn't apply too, but I think this needs to be said. > > Noel > >Doug wrote: > >> On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: >> >> > Hmmm, with all the DEC handbooks being mentioned here, why do you have a >> > problem with telling people the handbook is available? Somehow, it >> > seems like harassing people who post ebay auctions (and other items >> > elsewhere) really doesn't do a bit of good except to provide a bit of >> > irritation. >> >> I thought we'd been through this before. The only thing advertising an >> auction does is encourage a bidding war and drives the price up. This >> benefits the seller, and nobody else. Are you suggesting that somebody >> else might deserve the item more than the people who had already spotted >> it and/or bid on it? >> >> If somebody mentions something here that was offered via Usenet or some >> other sales outlet, then the advantage would have gone to anybody who had >> been actively looking for the item and had spotted it earlier. >> >> Given that you're a frequent seller on ebay, I can only guess at your >> motivation for bringing this up again. Surely you're aware that ebay >> slants the advantage toward the seller (the reserve trap door, the >> silly proxy system, national advertising, etc.), that prices of classic >> computing stuff on ebay is spiraling out of control, and that buyers could >> use a break. >> >> -- Doug > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 1 22:55:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: M7546 - TK50 or TK70? In-Reply-To: <199903020424.AA18943@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990301205232.00bb76d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:24 PM 3/1/99 -0500, Megan wrote: >The controller (an RQDX1, 2 or 3) plugs into the backplane. The ribbon >cable from it runs under the card cage to the bottom of the backplane, >where there is a distribution board which splits the signals into >connectors for cables connect to up to two hard drives, and one >connector for a floppy. Ahh, I see. However since I don't have an M7555 the cables aren't connected to anything underneath the backplane. This box has the WQESD for the disks and the 7546 for the TK50 (now MIA :-). Good to know. --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 1 23:11:47 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Group Buy Closed! Thanks for participating... In-Reply-To: <19990301.211829.277.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990301211147.00953100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:17 01-03-1999 -0600, you wrote: >Bruce: > >Okay, so this means I still owe you $6.12 for my share, right? See the bulletin I just sent to the group buy members. It's dropped to $6.06 now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From nfields at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 1 23:20:20 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> To doug, and the rest of the list. First, to doug. As for my "contribution to the last flame war" I made one post stating my opinion. I'm sorry if you feel this is not allowable. To anyone else, that I may have offended, by posting an e-bay auction, I do apologize, again. I must say, that I am disappointed with this. I subscribed to this list, because I enjoy older computers, and I wanted to learn more about them. As a thank you for the knowledge that I learned, I attempted to help someone else by pointing out a possible find for them. I'm done. I will not post another post at all to the list. I will sit here, and do nothing more than read. That way, no one, including doug, will ever feel that I have offended their opinions. Noel Doug wrote: > I just checked and found you contributed to the last flame war about this > topic. There's a mailing list setup where you can perform these acts of > kindness for people who have indicated they appreciate them. Send a > "subscribe ccauction" to majordomo@nut.net, and you can list your finds > there as often as you like. > > Please don't continue posting auctions to the classiccmp list where > several people (especially me) find them very annoying. > > Thanks, > Doug From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 1 23:15:40 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Nicolet Message-ID: <002701be646b$b87e0f20$0101a8c0@jay> >Please, no attachments! > >Give a address to website if anyone is insterested to look at it. > >Some users on List have very limited resources and some dial in >by the minute pay or by hour. $$$. A thousand pardons - I should have known better. Sorry to all on the list! Jay West From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 1 23:31:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Noel Fields wrote: > I'm done. I will not post another post at all to the list. I will sit here, > and do nothing more than read. That way, no one, including doug, will ever > feel that I have offended their opinions. Noel, when you decided to post a message, you opened yourself up to being either acclaimed or criticized (or ignored) for it. You shouldn't expect all your actions or opinions to always be uncontroversial. Perhaps you should have been warned of all the very intelligent, highly volatile personalities on this list. Nevertheless, you've just experienced the wide range of opinions that each person here espouses. You shouldn't be turned off or offended by it. That is just the nature of an open discussion. So don't go away, and don't be afraid to post what you feel is appropriate. But do be prepared to be flamed if it happens to disagree with other people who are also members of this being dysfunctional family we have here :) It's just the nature of the beast, man. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Mar 1 23:43:52 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: update on my netiquette goof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > > In the meantime, if he really wants to know everyone who you contacted, > just have Derek do a whois on ClassicCmp and send the list to him. It'll ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > be fun to see what he sends out to everyone. Ooh! Maybe he'll try to /curmudgeon/ No, no, no!!! Anything sent to this individual for whatever reason had bloody better well *not* include my e-mail address, nor should the aforementioned addy be sent >anywhere< without my (at least) being asked, thank you all very much indeed. Harrumph! Snorzle rumple errfle mmrs zzmmm ....... /curmudgeon off/ I want nothing to do with this, and besides I tried once some time ago to make a deal with this person, and it was not.... successful. Cheerz John From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Mar 1 23:50:26 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Noel Fields wrote: > To doug, and the rest of the list. First, to doug. As for my "contribution > to the last flame war" I made one post stating my opinion. I'm sorry if you > feel this is not allowable. I love opinions. But you knew there was a minor flame war over this issue since you contributed to the last one, yet you felt compelled to have at it again, and then you decide to go off in a huff because it ignites another flame war. Go figure. BTW, the only action of yours I really feel is "not allowable" is your posting of private email to this list without permission of the author. I'm not a huge stickler for etiquette, but that's generally considered a Royal No-No. I forgive you on all counts :-) The flame war was really between Marvin and me; you just ignited it (again). This is how Marvin and I express our warm feelings for one another. Go figure. ObCC: I hear Jobs and Sculley didn't get along at Apple. -- Doug From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Mar 1 23:51:03 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: update on my netiquette goof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601be6470$a831bfe0$1cf438cb@a.davie> Correct attribution please: I did NOT write the quoted text. I have enough problems with this guy as it is!! ? > On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > > > > > In the meantime, if he really wants to know everyone who you contacted, > > just have Derek do a whois on ClassicCmp and send the list to > him. It'll A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 00:02:07 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: update on my netiquette goof In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Mar 1, 99 09:43:52 pm Message-ID: <199903020602.WAA02218@saul6.u.washington.edu> John Lawson wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > In the meantime, if he really wants to know everyone who you contacted, > > just have Derek do a whois on ClassicCmp and send the list to him. It'll > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > be fun to see what he sends out to everyone. Ooh! Maybe he'll try to Don't worry... giving a wierdo carte blanche is not on my agenda. :) I'm not going to do anything remotely like that. I should point out, however, that your e-mail address is probably publicly available from the list server. Try sending a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with any subject, and the command review classiccmp at the beginning of the line in the body of the message. I put in a tab because the stupid software LOOKS INSIDE list traffic for commands (as some people here already know). They don't do anything except cause a polite message to land in your mailbox, but it's still annoying. I think there's an option to only make the subscriber list available to other subscribers. I'll look into it right now. > Harrumph! Snorzle rumple errfle mmrs zzmmm ....... Hey, how'd you find out about Mrs. Zzmmm? She was my secret computer supplier! Now I'll have to find a new one. -- Derek From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Mar 2 00:07:05 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199903020605.BAA08763@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:50:26 -0500 (EST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Doug To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: e-bay item Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > ObCC: I hear Jobs and Sculley didn't get along at Apple. Not again? I thought Sculley is turfed out or left and Jobs came along finally and begat all those interesting machines very recently. Wizard > > -- Doug > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 2 00:11:45 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <36DB8121.F16EC080@rain.org> Noel Fields wrote: > > I'm done. I will not post another post at all to the list. I will sit here, > and do nothing more than read. That way, no one, including doug, will ever > feel that I have offended their opinions. First, I hope you reconsider. Some of the people on this list have some very strong opinions and are not afraid to express their ideas and/or try to intimidate others into their way of thinking. Someone made a comment about the majority of the list not wanting to see ebay postings, and that is false. The combination of public and private email I received on the subject indicate there is far more support for this type of post than is being publically posted. I don't particularly like flame wars, but I intensely dislike some of the attitudes that have been expressed that have the potential to bring on reactions such as yours. You took the time to post, but others will just vote with their feet. When that happens, everyone loses. From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 2 00:15:21 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item References: Message-ID: <36DB81F9.B162126E@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > I forgive you on all counts :-) The flame war was really between Marvin > and me; you just ignited it (again). This is how Marvin and I express our > warm feelings for one another. Go figure. Well said! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 2 00:24:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> (message from Noel Fields on Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:20:20 -0800) References: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19990302062422.6604.qmail@brouhaha.com> Noel Fields wrote: > I'm done. I will not post another post at all to the list. I will sit here, > and do nothing more than read. That way, no one, including doug, will ever > feel that I have offended their opinions. Noel, Your doing this offends the hell out of me [*]. Which I suppose only goes to show that you can't please everyone. Sorry, Eric [*] Well, actually it is the fact that you were driven to this by a flame war that I find offensive. As Jack Nicholson's character said, "Why can't we all just get along?" Of course, shortly thereafter he was killed. So much for diplomacy. From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 00:30:58 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <19990302062422.6604.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > As Jack Nicholson's character said, "Why can't we all just get along?" I thought it was Rodney King who said that in an apology for the riots he started. -- Doug From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 2 00:53:58 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Novice prospectors guide In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990301093150.00cda720@vpwisfirewall> References: <199902262301.RAA07230@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >>I ran across someone in AZ that collects Teraks. I still have a couple >>boxes of 8" floppies from college (UC Riverside was supposed to be working >>with UC San Diego on the Pascal stuff, but end results were about all we >>saw). > >Ran across? You mean, in person? Or online? Terak Corporation >was founded in Scottsdale, Arizona. This fellow is a graduate student I think, and he actually will put one of his old systems online for people to telnet into to run ancient code. I found him while searching for information on a old Gig Digital (Quantum) drive (dsp5200 sounds right, but I haven't found my old email to him via keyword searching yet). One of the people on this list has to know this guy, if not I will dig some more. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 2 01:21:27 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <19990302062422.6604.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >On 2 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> As Jack Nicholson's character said, "Why can't we all just get along?" > >I thought it was Rodney King who said that in an apology for the riots he >started. The source is often misquoted, Rodney was actually standing at a row of urinals in a mens room. "Why can't we all get a long?" From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Tue Mar 2 02:34:24 1999 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board Message-ID: <248EE58C1@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 1 Mar 99 at 1:58, Gareth Knight wrote: > Zane H. Healy mentioned reading Mac disks in Windows: > >Rumor has it that there is something along these lines. Since use a Mac > >and Windows I've never looked into it. > > There is a freeware utility called TransMac or something like that. It is > also possible to use Mac CDs and disks using the Executor Mac emulator. There are two DOS based shareware apps, MacSee and Macette. Try your local Simtel mirror site in the DOS area under DISK. Needless to say, these utils only work for 1.4Mb disks, not 400/800Kb. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From kevan at heydon.org Tue Mar 2 04:10:20 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Torch C Series machines... Message-ID: I have three Torch C series machines that I no longer want. They are the BBC architecture machines and NOT the variants that run Unix. I have two hard disk based systems and one dual floppy system. One of the hard disk based machines is in a pretty poor state so is probably best used for spares. I do have some floppies for these machines. They are free to a good home. They are very heavy so collection is probably best. I am in Cambridge, UK. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 2 04:13:33 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990301130555.00f855e0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: I am real sorry for the following, but I have a two day email lag right now, and once one dog howls, we should all get to bark a couple times if we need to. >> Are you suggesting that the seller doesn't deserve the chance to get the >> highest price they can find? > >I'm suggesting that the seller already has the advantage. Why increase it >by turning this list into an advertising medium? > >If you spot something that you think somebody would want, why not tell >that person on an individual basis rather than fueling a bidding frenzy >by tossing meat to a pack of wolves? (No offense to actual wolves >intended. No meat was harmed during the posting of this message.) I sell things on eBay, so count that as my bias. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 2 04:19:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <199903012226.AA05226@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: >I'm sorry, but this list should NOT be used by someone who isn't >satisfied by the price they are getting at Ebay... If you were at >a real auction and didn't like the price, what would you do, tell >everyone to hold on while you went outside and solicted more people >from off the street to bid? Please...! If the auction isn't bringing the price desired it is common to halt it, or pass the item. Having just survived a 3800 lot live auction that lasted all weekend, and wasn't finished 1 am Monday, it is a circus. I just happen to like the circus. >Also, if the person is so interested in money that the ONLY alternative >is that they will dumpster it, I don't want to give them ANY business, >other than to raid their dumpster... 30 days in the can for the first offense. Computers don't like being dropped in the dumpster much either. >Please keep postings about ebay off this pure list... go to where it >is wanted... otherwise you are no better than any of the spammers >we fight on a regular basis... I agree, except for cases where it is really interesting, or with a picture etc. thats special. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 2 03:56:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Weird cable In-Reply-To: <031e01be6464$29381100$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: I didn't think about asking this list until the string of messages about cables, but here is a weird cable I would like to have indentified. Shrink wrap sleeve says, 528-0000401 REV. C M.A.C. 10-28-94 Main connector has two cables out the back, end of each is marked A or B. Main connector I think is a SCA backplane connector (male sort of wide, but squished centronics looking thing except higher contact density). A and B connectors are the size of a DB25, but have sparsely populated 3 rows of pins (HD50 maybe?). Each cable has this brand type marking too; C & M Corp (UL) CL2 28 AWG 75 C - - - LL33361 CSA AWM I/II A/B 80 C 300V FT4 Ideas? Anybody need some I have 18 still in the original bags. I am generally willing to look for any other weird cable too. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Mar 1 23:35:05 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board In-Reply-To: <000001be641b$b874a7a0$febdfea9@gaz> Message-ID: <199903021036.FAA28582@smtp.interlog.com> On 1 Mar 99 at 1:58, Gareth Knight wrote: > Zane H. Healy mentioned reading Mac disks in Windows: > >Rumor has it that there is something along these lines. Since use a Mac > >and Windows I've never looked into it. > > There is a freeware utility called TransMac or something like that. It is > also possible to use Mac CDs and disks using the Executor Mac emulator. > -- > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 > http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" > Yeah, but the last time I looked they wanted something like $500 for Executor. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Mar 1 23:35:07 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990301133117.00f8dc10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <199903021036.FAA28587@smtp.interlog.com> On 1 Mar 99 at 14:44, Doug wrote: > I've already listed a few way ebay slants the advantage towards the > seller. > I'd like to think that part of the reason the ebay noise level is pretty > low here is because we've already had this discussion, and the list you > recommend has already been created. Those who haven't yet mastered the > art of efficiently using ebay's search engine can listen to Marvin post > his arbitrary list by sending a "subscribe ccauction" message to > majordomo@nut.net. > > You're saying we're on a slipery slope, so why not slide all the way down? > I'd guess there are a few thousand listings on ebay that might be > interesting to one or more list members on any given day. It wouldn't be > too hard for me to write a little application to give you a sense of the > fire hose you're asking to be turned on :-) > > I don't want to hide ebay. They're at www.ebay.com. They have a very > nice search engine and lots of good stuff. Please don't duplicate their > site here. > > -- Doug > OK, I just subscribed. Keep em coming Marvin et all. Since I don't live in sillycone valley and don't have the time to spend searching E-Pay, this evens the edge you've got on me. A wee bit. Snicker, snicker, chortle,chortle. I guess this means that repair tips and other arcane computer knowledge is destined to disappear from the net, since it's driving down the fees a tech can charge. Sounds like Gates theology to me. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 2 06:05:27 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:41 2005 Subject: M7546 - TK50 or TK70? Message-ID: <199903021205.AA20026@world.std.com> >Ahh, I see. However since I don't have an M7555 the cables aren't >connected to anything underneath the backplane. This box has the WQESD >for the disks and the 7546 for the TK50 (now MIA :-). Good to know. There is also a little panel, secured by a couple of screws, through which a cable for a TK50 passes. This pass-through could also be used for the cables from the WQESD, so long as they are long enough to run all the way from the board to the disk. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 2 06:47:09 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: HP85 Available Message-ID: <005e01be64aa$c9c37380$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> For a scan of the BASIC syntax Guidelines got to: www.pclink.com/fauradon you'll find it in the "tech info" section Francois >At the last TRW, John picked up an HP85 that he stuck me with :). If anyone >is interested in it, $10 plus shipping from zip 93105. I haven't weighed it >yet, but that can be done if anyone is interested. Condition unknown, but >the guy said his son plugged it in and it worked. No manuals, plugins, etc. >come with the unit. I also plugged it in, and it ran my usual: > >10 print "hello" >20 goto 10 > >program with no problems, and it sounded like the printer was trying to >print each iteration of the program. The tape drive roller is gooey >although it is still round at this point :). > From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Mar 2 07:59:00 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Special Thanks to Bruce Lane & Michael Grigoni Message-ID: <01BE648A.EA469030.steverob@hotoffice.com> I would like to extend a special thanks to Bruce Lane & Michael Grigoni for coordinating the Teledisk and HP belt purchases. It is that cooperative spirit that makes this such a wonderful group. Thanks guys, Steve Robertson - From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Mar 2 08:01:04 1999 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Executor (Was: Re: Central Point Option Board) In-Reply-To: <199903021036.FAA28582@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Yeah, but the last time I looked they wanted something like $500 for Executor. Well, it depends on how long it takes you to copy a disk. The FREE Demo version runs for 10 minutes before it chokes. I've used it to copy info off of mac disks. IIRC, though, the demo won't format a MAC disk. And, no, it's not $500. The Linux version is $75, the Windows version is $150. > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com ttyl srw From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 2 08:10:17 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: update on my netiquette goof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990302084601.00a10350@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:43 PM 3/1/99 -0800, John Lawson said something like: > > >On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: >> >> >> In the meantime, if he really wants to know everyone who you contacted, >> just have Derek do a whois on ClassicCmp and send the list to him. It'll > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> be fun to see what he sends out to everyone. Ooh! Maybe he'll try to > >/curmudgeon/ > > No, no, no!!! Anything sent to this individual for whatever >reason had bloody better well *not* include my e-mail address, nor >should the aforementioned addy be sent >anywhere< without my (at least) >being asked, thank you all very much indeed. > > Harrumph! Snorzle rumple errfle mmrs zzmmm ....... > >/curmudgeon off/ > > > I want nothing to do with this, and besides I tried once some time >ago to make a deal with this person, and it was not.... successful. Absolutely! No address distribution to him. That character we're talking about seems to have some sort of ego problem and appears to be so totally greedy that the end result is that he actually presses our buttons which end up bothering us. 'Control freak' also comes to mind from my own and other's contacts reported here. I contacted him 9 - 12 months ago (IIRC) asking prices on a couple of things. Got back a terse answer with prices that were *way* out of line, IMO. It was worded to the effect of "either pay my price or go away!" I sensed right then he was a problem and vowed to myself never to contact him again. I still think his saying he's leaving the country is false just to make folks think he'll make a fast deal to get rid of it. According to comments on this list: he's been trying to leave the country after over one year? No, he's likely just full of B. S. and out to make a buck and control the process his way only. Never, never give any of our email addresses or other info out without our express permission. Especially to this guy. If he demanded Andrew to turn over who he's passed the phone # to, then he does have a problem with control of his world around him. He temporarily lost control by somebody inadvertently giving out his # and is a bit vengeful toward the situation and will attempt to regain it until he cools off. That's the way I see it. Enough for now as this is getting more off topic. We just know much better now to avoid his ng postings. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Mar 2 08:35:33 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software Message-ID: <01be64b9$ed8b2880$9101eac5@tiger> >For the T2/T4/T8 (original transputers), there's the : >C004 crospoint switch >C011 parallel bus -> link interface >C012 ditto > >According to the databook, for the T9000 there's (at least) the : >C100 Protocol converter (links T9000 links to T2/T4/T8 links) >C104 packet routing switch (same sort of function as the C004) >C101 parallel bus -> link interface > >Be warned, I've done quite a bit with the original transputers (both >TRAMs and bare chips), but I've never seen a T9000. > I just found out that I have all the datasheets from Inmos! The IMSB103 is a DS-Link to Ethernet interface. I also got some more info on the T9000 transputers. I too have never seen a T9000 or worked with them, so I don't know too much about them either. I did work with T4 and T8 though. Ram From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 2 08:31:41 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Jobs vs Sculley In-Reply-To: <199903020605.BAA08763@mail.cgocable.net> References: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990302083141.010244a0@vpwisfirewall> Doug wrote: > ObCC: I hear Jobs and Sculley didn't get along at Apple. I think my impression of Jobs was permanently colored by a paperback I read in the early 80s. It may have been lousy journalism, but it gave the distinct impression that he was not technically savvy when they started out, and/or clueless in other ways. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 2 08:39:09 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Nicolet rescue In-Reply-To: <004d01be645c$351fd500$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990302083909.00fdb580@vpwisfirewall> At 09:24 PM 3/1/99 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Had to rescue the Nicolet computer. Still not sure if I'm going to keep >it...but at least it won't go to the scrap heap. Nicolet is still around. I've been there, rescuing old junk. I'll send a message to my friend there, and ask if there's an old-timer who'd like to volunteer to record the details of the old machines for posterity. - John From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Mar 2 08:49:54 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Special Thanks to Bruce Lane & Michael Grigoni In-Reply-To: <01BE648A.EA469030.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990302064954.0095f2c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 08:59 02-03-1999 -0500, you wrote: >I would like to extend a special thanks to Bruce Lane & Michael Grigoni for >coordinating the Teledisk and HP belt purchases. It is that cooperative >spirit that makes this such a wonderful group. You're most welcome, though I had nothing to do with the belts. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 2 09:08:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > I am a bit touchy right now because yesterday I had a very unpleasant phone > exchange. Typical story, guy buys a few pallets at auction, and finds in > this case some old macs in with the PC stuff he wants. He has, once it is > cleaned up and checked out, if it is as he describes maybe $400 retail of > goods. He doesn't just decline my very fair offer (about $150 for the > curious) in light of the actual untested pile of stuff on a pallet > condition, but tells me he will just throw it in a dumpster if he can't get > a retail price. Ignore the fact he paid 3 cents a pound or $20 a pallet, > and wants me to buy the part he doesn't want. This is the worst kind of asshole and I've encountered them a few times. I can't understand what goes through the puny mind of someone with this sort of attitude. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 2 09:08:58 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990301162736.00f8b100@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990302090858.00cf5660@vpwisfirewall> At 02:58 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >So far, as far as being THE venue for buying/selling/trading old computer >things, I say that the VCF is second only to eBay. But the advantage of >the VCF is that you can get stuff MUCH cheaper than you would have to pay >on eBay. Last year all sorts of excellent stuff got sold for very >reasonable prices. The VCF is an admirable effort, indeed, but I don't see how you're going to avoid eBay's influence on the price of old computers. For the booth sales, I'm sure eBay's prices will have an effect on the initial price for some high-profile items, don't you? The VCF isn't an auction, right? Or are you thinking of an auction format for next year? If you took a small cut, it might be good for the bottom line. - John From aknight at mindspring.com Tue Mar 2 11:26:33 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Anybody know what a HP7911P computer is? In-Reply-To: <248EE58C1@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990302122633.007b3580@mindspring.com> Hi, I've seen a HP7911P computer for sale on the 'net, anybody know anything about it or that series, like what kind of processor it has, etc.? It looks to be fairly big (i.e. bigger than a desktop PC, smaller than a mainframe unit). Any info welcome! Alex Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 12:08:24 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <199903021808.KAA16169@saul7.u.washington.edu> I've been reading back issues of Micro Cornucopia... They have a lot of glowing things to say about the TI 34010. Has anyone used one? They sound very powerful and they fit my ideas about what graphics hardware should do. my ideasx: easy programmability and flexible memory architecture are good. Comprehensive text routines are as important as graphics routines. If hardware is proprietary (like 3D cards for IBM clones) or nonstandard (like cheap VGA cards for IBM clones) or the OS can't deal with it, I don't really want to deal with it either. -- Derek From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 2 12:29:04 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Anybody know what a HP7911P computer is? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990302122633.007b3580@mindspring.com> References: <248EE58C1@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990302131824.009c4970@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:26 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Alex Knight said something like: >Hi, > >I've seen a HP7911P computer for sale on the 'net, anybody >know anything about it or that series, like what kind of >processor it has, etc.? It looks to be fairly big (i.e. >bigger than a desktop PC, smaller than a mainframe unit). >Any info welcome! Hi Alex, Well, this is only a hard disk drive with a 1/4" tape drive. Capacity is around 28 Mb. There is a Z80 used inside as the controller (if the unit is like my 7912P) but it certainly cannot be used as a 'computer'. Has HPIB/GPIB (aka IEEE488) interface. And yes, it's big. About 30" tall, about a foot wide, maybe 30" deep. Probably around 100 lbs or more, again, if it's like my 7912P. Hope this helps you. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From jott at roadkill.ee.nd.edu Tue Mar 2 12:40:00 1999 From: jott at roadkill.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: FREE: ~5160 Message-ID: <199903021840.NAA00491@roadkill.ee.nd.edu> Hello - There may be some IBM 5160 type computers available in a day or two. I'm not interested, but if someone wants to pay shipping I'll look into it. Reply quickly, since I'm not interested they'll go in the dumpster if I don't hear anything. john -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From ss at allegro.com Tue Mar 2 12:40:39 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: HP85 Available In-Reply-To: References: <19990301224221.4008.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199903021840.KAA27219@bart.allegro.com> Tony reminded me: > If you had the Forth/assembler ROM in your 71, you also had 'keyboard is' > to reassign the keyboard device. I'm looking for a FORTH ROM for my HP 71 ... if anyone has a spare one to sell, I'd be interested in it! thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From donm at cts.com Tue Mar 2 12:48:12 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >On 2 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> As Jack Nicholson's character said, "Why can't we all just get along?" > > > >I thought it was Rodney King who said that in an apology for the riots he > >started. > > The source is often misquoted, Rodney was actually standing at a row of > urinals in a mens room. "Why can't we all get a long?" Spose he was standing at one of those low mounted children's urinals? - don From cdrmool at interlog.com Tue Mar 2 01:21:56 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Toronto HP125 computer available... Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19990302022156.006e1a08@mail.interlog.com> I may have posted this before but I'm getting nervous. I saw an HP 125 computer at the Salvation Army Store at Lansdowne and Queen in Toronto. It is all there but the keyboard, monitor, and box are slowly being seperated. The manager has said $25 but I suspect that you could get him down to about $20 at least as its been there so long. No I will not ship it but if there is anyone in the area who wants it, get there quick. I, unfortunately, have NO ROOM! left for much of anything. I am told it works fine. I've never seen one before and suspect I may never again. Please someone get it. Already the manuals have gone missing. Colan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 2 13:50:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990302090858.00cf5660@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > The VCF is an admirable effort, indeed, but I don't see how you're > going to avoid eBay's influence on the price of old computers. In fact I fear it helped fuel the fire. > For the booth sales, I'm sure eBay's prices will have an effect > on the initial price for some high-profile items, don't you? Yes they will. But the sellers are always welcome to go through the hassle of using ebay rather than the simple immediate exchange of cash for computers. Cleaner and easier than ebay. > The VCF isn't an auction, right? Or are you thinking of an auction > format for next year? If you took a small cut, it might be good > for the bottom line. I was considering an auction last year but due to time constraints had to drop the idea. I may do an auction this year but we'll see. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 2 14:01:07 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990302090858.00cf5660@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990302140107.00feec30@vpwisfirewall> At 11:50 AM 3/2/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > >Yes they will. But the sellers are always welcome to go through the >hassle of using ebay rather than the simple immediate exchange of cash for >computers. Cleaner and easier than ebay. Huh? Attending VCF in person and renting a flea market spot and dealing with customers is easier than using eBay? Wow, you really do put a positive spin on VCF. :-) - John From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Mar 2 14:27:30 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: FREE: ~5160 Message-ID: In a message dated 3/2/99 1:42:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, jott@roadkill.ee.nd.edu writes: > There may be some IBM 5160 type computers available in a day or two. > I'm not interested, but if someone wants to pay shipping I'll look > into it. Reply quickly, since I'm not interested they'll go in the > dumpster if I don't hear anything. > > john well, they're only XTs, but shirley they deserve something better than just to be thrown out? Personally, I don't think any computer no matter how 'worthless' should be thrown out. It could do word processing or dos tutoring at the very least. From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 14:32:55 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990302140107.00feec30@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > Huh? Attending VCF in person and renting a flea market spot and dealing > with customers is easier than using eBay? Wow, you really do put a > positive spin on VCF. :-) It's certainly a hulluva lot better from the buyer's perspective. The ability to inspect the item, not having to send money to a stranger hoping they won't rip you off, and taking immediate delivery. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 2 15:06:55 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990302140107.00feec30@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 11:50 AM 3/2/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > > > >Yes they will. But the sellers are always welcome to go through the > >hassle of using ebay rather than the simple immediate exchange of cash for > >computers. Cleaner and easier than ebay. > > Huh? Attending VCF in person and renting a flea market spot and > dealing with customers is easier than using eBay? Wow, you really > do put a positive spin on VCF. :-) ALRIGHT CHILDREN! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! There will no doubt always be factional debates between those who want to preserve the history of a given item/technology/etc. (and may be trying to do it with little or no monetary support) and those who think the only reason for something to exist is to provide an opportunity for them to make money off of it. However, not everyone within earshot (or 'blipshot' or whatever) wants to be regaled with the non-stop flamemails and posturing! Kindly take it offline or cork it! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 2 15:14:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990302140107.00feec30@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 11:50 AM 3/2/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > > > >Yes they will. But the sellers are always welcome to go through the > >hassle of using ebay rather than the simple immediate exchange of cash for > >computers. Cleaner and easier than ebay. > > Huh? Attending VCF in person and renting a flea market spot and > dealing with customers is easier than using eBay? Wow, you really > do put a positive spin on VCF. :-) I suppose there's a bit of hassle involved if you're from out of the area, but wouldn't you want to bring your stuff to the VCF just so you can participate in the festivities? I mean, you get to meet industry legends like Gordon Bell, you get to cavort with beautiful ladies in bikini's (well ok, we didn't have the budget for this last year but I hope to have beautiful ladies in bikini's roaming the exhibit area this year, and a big studly hunk for Allison), you get to put faces to names when you see all the ClassicCmp folks you've been flaming, etc. Its a lot of fun. Everyone should come. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 2 13:03:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <36DB7514.3BA3BF90@ix.netcom.com> from "Noel Fields" at Mar 1, 99 09:20:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990302/cb0f92be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 2 13:38:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Parsys Ltd T9000 SuperCluster documentation & software In-Reply-To: <01be64b9$ed8b2880$9101eac5@tiger> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Mar 2, 99 09:35:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1040 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990302/b26f4f7c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 2 13:47:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903021808.KAA16169@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 2, 99 10:08:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 786 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990302/aa02d68f/attachment.ksh From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 15:49:55 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think somebody may have mentioned this book before, but I just picked up a copy yesterday. Cool! It was written in 1968, and has a picture of a bunch of bent paperclips on the cover. What the? It goes into details of building all the elements of a computer, even core memory, out of paperclips! Find this book! Buy it! Has anybody built the stuff from the book? -- Doug From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 2 15:56:25 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Doug wrote: >bunch of bent paperclips on the cover. What the? It goes into details of >building all the elements of a computer, even core memory, out of >paperclips! I have seen books make similar claims, and it was a play of words each time. What tools do you need to process these paperclips? Is a blast furnace mentioned somewhere? Seriously, I would like to hear more about it (could you post the table of contents, maybe?). --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 15:59:06 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 2, 99 07:47:23 pm Message-ID: <199903022159.NAA21162@saul6.u.washington.edu> > > my ideasx: easy programmability and flexible memory architecture are good. > > Comprehensive text routines are as important as graphics routines. If > > Block move/insert/combine is the really useful primative. You can use > that to insert character bitmaps from a font elsewhere in RAM, for example. Actually I was thinking of text effects like bold, italics, underline, etc. Also I had character-cell displays in mind, as well as bit-addressable ones. I'll admit that what I really had in the back of my mind, as a somewhat-good but mostly-bad example, was PC graphics. I find their history oddly haunting. There have been a lot of fancy features over the years. I'm most interested in the EGA/VGA/custom extensions to text mode (more colors, big character sets, large numbers of characters, etc.) but the graphics extensions (3D cards, 8514/A, XGA, PGA, etc.) are nice too. Unfortunately, they're built on top of such a lousy base! Bad BIOS code, deficient hardware, a series of OSs that have no interface to _extra_ features (except maybe OS/2 and Linux), bad drivers... Admittedly, I always wanted to play with a Hercules card. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 16:03:46 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 2, 99 04:56:25 pm Message-ID: <199903022203.OAA22022@saul6.u.washington.edu> Max Eskin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Doug wrote: > I have seen books make similar claims, and it was a play of words each > time. What tools do you need to process these paperclips? Is a blast > furnace mentioned somewhere? Seriously, I would like to hear more about it > (could you post the table of contents, maybe?). The problem with this book (if it's the one I saw several years ago) is that the computer doesn't interpret instructions. You have to do that yourself. The book is very interesting, though, and the computer is pretty realistic. With some extra logic I think it could be made into a full computer. BTW, this is a topic I'm pretty interested in. :) -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 16:09:15 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > I have seen books make similar claims, and it was a play of words each > time. What tools do you need to process these paperclips? Is a blast > furnace mentioned somewhere? Seriously, I would like to hear more about it > (could you post the table of contents, maybe?). No blast furnace required. I'll try to scan a few pages this week. There are 7 chapters, and the middle 5 each describe an important element and end in one or more construction details. Here's what's need to build a core memory: Chassis: 1 composition board 3 supports (scrap wood) 6 wood screws Display circuit: 44 paper clips 42 machine screws 42 nuts 4 lamps 1 tin strip 3.5' hookup wire 6' insulated hookup wire adhesive tape Special tools: tin snips drill -- Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 2 16:14:56 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Find this book! Buy it! Has anybody built the stuff from the book? Thanks. I'll try to. Would be easiest if you could also identify the author and publisher. I assume that 1968 predates ISBN. If there are any copies available on e-bay, would you like to hear about them? :-) From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 16:15:44 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: <199903022203.OAA22022@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > The problem with this book (if it's the one I saw several years ago) is that > the computer doesn't interpret instructions. You have to do that yourself. > The book is very interesting, though, and the computer is pretty realistic. > With some extra logic I think it could be made into a full computer. The last chapter is dedicated to programming the machine. I haven't tried to build anything yet, but it looks at least semi-automatic. The program is stored in (on) drum memory, and operates on data in core. -- Doug From adavie at mad.scientist.com Tue Mar 2 16:21:52 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401be64fb$12d0df40$36f438cb@a.davie> ALCOSSER; PHILLIPS; WOLK: HOW TO BUILD A WORKING DIGITAL COMPUTER ; HAYDEN; 1969; TRADE PAPER; 171 PPG; -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > (XenoSoft) > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 9:15 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer > > > > Find this book! Buy it! Has anybody built the stuff from the book? > > Thanks. I'll try to. > Would be easiest if you could also identify the author and publisher. I > assume that 1968 predates ISBN. > > > If there are any copies available on e-bay, would you like to hear about > them? :-) > From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 16:23:10 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Would be easiest if you could also identify the author and publisher. I > assume that 1968 predates ISBN. Authors are Alcosser, Phillips, and Wolk. Hmm, what year was ISBN invented? Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 66-14495. > If there are any copies available on e-bay, would you like to hear about > them? :-) Only if you don't mind e-paying through the nose. I have my copy :-) -- Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 2 16:25:07 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is this the one? : Alcosser, Edward. How to build a working digital computer [by] Edward Alcosser, James P. Phillips [and] Allen M. Wolk. New York, Hayden Book Co. [1967]. UCI Sci Lib TK7888.3 .A44 Bar UCSB Main Lib TK7888.3 .A44 Sci-Eng CSL State Lib TK7888.3 .A44 General Coll For those with convenient ILL (interlibrary loan), UCI is University of California Irvine, UCSB is University of California Santa Barbara, and CSL is California State Library. From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Mar 2 16:30:59 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Find this book! Buy it! Has anybody built the stuff from the book? > > Thanks. I'll try to. > Would be easiest if you could also identify the author and publisher. I > assume that 1968 predates ISBN. > > > If there are any copies available on e-bay, would you like to hear about > them? :-) > I take this trenchant opportunity to remind the Assembled Faithful that www.abebooks.com is, IMHO a rilly bitch'n place to score Olde Computer Books. I have just today gotten my copy of "Digital Techniques for Computation and Control, 1958... full of killer pix of cool old iron, which will go to swell the many megabytes of scans I'm slowly accumulating to be indexed and put up on my WebPage... some day soon. I mean it. Cheers John From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Mar 2 17:20:07 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: DEC LA75 printer Message-ID: <36DC7227.68F3D9A3@halcyon.com> Anyone have a manual for the DEC LA75S-A2? This model has both parallel and serial ports, although the serial port is the skewed RJ-45 connector. I haven't been able to find out anything about configuring/setting up this printer. There seems to be a little info on the Web on how to set up up for DOS/Windows, but I want to use it with DEC equipment (VT-220, VT340, Pro, etc.), and I don't even have a new enough manual to give a description of it. It looks like it will take a font cartridge, too? Anything useful? Thanks, Dave From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 2 19:32:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990302193235.2257ab52@intellistar.net> At 07:08 AM 3/2/99 -0800, Sam wrote: >On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> I am a bit touchy right now because yesterday I had a very unpleasant phone >> exchange. Typical story, guy buys a few pallets at auction, and finds in >> this case some old macs in with the PC stuff he wants. He has, once it is >> cleaned up and checked out, if it is as he describes maybe $400 retail of >> goods. He doesn't just decline my very fair offer (about $150 for the >> curious) in light of the actual untested pile of stuff on a pallet >> condition, but tells me he will just throw it in a dumpster if he can't get >> a retail price. Ignore the fact he paid 3 cents a pound or $20 a pallet, >> and wants me to buy the part he doesn't want. > >This is the worst kind of asshole and I've encountered them a few times. >I can't understand what goes through the puny mind of someone with this >sort of attitude. > I understand them. In fact, I'm working with one of them right now. He just tossed a whole pallet load of PS-2s and another pallet load of HPs. (I wasn't there that day or I would have tried to get them but they know that so I'm sure that's why they were pitched the one day I wasn't there.) Anyway, his view is that if he takes a lower price then people will start expecting him to sell cheaper. Therefore he sets a price and he doesn't care how long it sets, he won't come off that price. Sooner or later he'll scrap it. We just scrapped a brand new $100,000 circuit board component placing machine today. It was brand new and was still in the original (HUGE) crate. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 2 19:36:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Anybody know what a HP7911P computer is? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990302122633.007b3580@mindspring.com> References: <248EE58C1@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990302193620.22573040@intellistar.net> Hi Alex, It's not a computer, it's a big heavy slow hard drive/ tape drive combination unit. I'd have to look up the capactity but it's probably very small, on the order of 30 Mb or so. The drive wheel in the tape drive is almost certainly melted away. FWIW I just scrapped a HP 7912. It was 67Mb hard drive/tape drive combo. Joe At 12:26 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >I've seen a HP7911P computer for sale on the 'net, anybody >know anything about it or that series, like what kind of >processor it has, etc.? It looks to be fairly big (i.e. >bigger than a desktop PC, smaller than a mainframe unit). >Any info welcome! > >Alex > >Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page >http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 2 18:44:16 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: 3270 card for PC Message-ID: <19990303004210468.AAA216@fuj03> On the off-chance that someone can use it for something, I'll offer a CXI 3270 (coax) board for the 8-bit ISA bus, condition unknown. I plan to ship via USPS Priority mail. If you want it, let me know. I have had little use for such a card, but I am told if you need one, little else will do. Dick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 2 19:17:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903022159.NAA21162@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 2, 99 01:59:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1806 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/50a0484d/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 2 19:48:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: DEC LA75 printer In-Reply-To: <36DC7227.68F3D9A3@halcyon.com> Message-ID: >Anyone have a manual for the DEC LA75S-A2? This model has both parallel and >serial ports, although the serial port is the skewed RJ-45 connector. > >I haven't been able to find out anything about configuring/setting up this >printer. There seems to be a little info on the Web on how to set up up for >DOS/Windows, but I want to use it with DEC equipment (VT-220, VT340, Pro, >etc.), and I don't even have a new enough manual to give a description of it. > >It looks like it will take a font cartridge, too? Anything useful? Erm, I've a LA-75 hooked to my VT-420 on my PDP-11/73. One useful bit of info is that it takes Apple ImageWriter ribbons same as several other printers, such as one of the old IBM's, so ribbons are easy to get and cheap. Someone posted info a while back on how to check the settings when I was asking about mine. Unfortunatly I don't have a manual. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 2 19:55:25 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990302204736.009c7aa0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:30 PM 3/2/99 -0800, John Lawson said something like: -- snip -- > >> > Find this book! Buy it! Has anybody built the stuff from the book? > -- snip -- > > I take this trenchant opportunity to remind the Assembled Faithful >that > > www.abebooks.com > > is, IMHO a rilly bitch'n place to score Olde Computer Books. > Amen brother! I just got a copy of Vol. three of _Menlo Park Reminiscences_ by Francis Jehl to complete my set (great technical history of Thomas Edison's laboratory written by one of Edison's assistants) and I scored a good looking copy of _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe, et al. from a reasonably priced book dealer in N. Cal. I could possibly go broke with ABE if I started hunting for the early radio, TV and computer books I've been wanting. "Recommended". -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 20:03:44 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302204736.009c7aa0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > Edison's laboratory written by one of Edison's assistants) and I scored a > good looking copy of _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe, et al. from a > reasonably priced book dealer in N. Cal. Aha, that was you! Yes, the competition is fierce even in the non-auction space, but at ABE, the prize goes to the swift, not just the rich. -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 20:15:46 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 3, 99 01:17:45 am Message-ID: <199903030215.SAA25587@saul6.u.washington.edu> > If you have a decent device to insert arbitrary-sized bitmaps at > arbitrary postions (Who said 'PERQ rasterop machine'?) then you don't > really need hardware support for text. True. Most new machines use that strategy. Occasionally it backfires. I love Sun's console font but old Suns are slow (especially when inverting the whole screen) and they have no frills. > I am in two minds about text (only) modes. On the one hand, I rarely use > graphics anyway, so a good text display is all I need (heck, I am using a > clone Hercules card at the moment). On the other hand, the PERQ got it > right IMHO - a bitmapped display that was as fast as a normal serial > terminal at displaying text. > > I am not sure the PC did get it right. The CGA was something of a cludge, > what with a hardware text mode _and_ ROM support for displaying text in > the bitmapped modes. I should have said I have an end in mind (i.e., good-looking text display, in several sizes and styles at once, with few GUI extras -- basically a refined 80's-style intelligent terminal). I mentioned text modes because they are a convenient means to that end (the API is simple and memory management is a no-brainer). Also I like the default text-mode font itself. But the incompatibility of various cards (AFAIK) and the stubborn stupidity of Windows NT make text modes worthless. Graphics modes are great but I haven't found a set of fonts that are big, good-looking, normal/bold/italic/underline, and all the same size. This applies to Windows NT and X. The exception is Courier which I think is ugly. > Are they rare, or something? In the UK, ones with ASICs are _very_ > common, clones of the original Hercules card are pretty easy to find > (including ones with extra fancy features), and even genuine ones do turn up. No, I've just never found one or set it up. Having a Mac is a big disadvantage too. Does your clone card have color? What about its text modes? -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 2 20:29:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903030215.SAA25587@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 2, 99 06:15:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/534a06e7/attachment.ksh From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 18:29:55 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:42 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990302182955.2097a9f6@earthlink.net> At 04:49 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >I think somebody may have mentioned this book before, but I just picked up >a copy yesterday. Cool! It was written in 1968, and has a picture of a >bunch of bent paperclips on the cover. What the? It goes into details of >building all the elements of a computer, even core memory, out of >paperclips! > >Find this book! Buy it! Has anybody built the stuff from the book? > It was me for one who mentioned it before. There must have several editions, as my notes say 1964 (or I made another mistake). It made very liberal use of double pole double throw knife switches, like those still available today at Radio Shack. For example, the binary to decimal converter used 4 (gangs) of switches to power 10 lamps. The first gang, a single pole switched between 0-7 and 8-9. You get the picture for the other 3 gangs. The drum was a metal can with contacts to 20 or so flashlight lamps. Segments of the drum were covered up with tape so various lamps were lit as one rotated the drum. The lamps were instructions for you to switch the various knife switches, you rotated the drum to see the steps to take. The switch logic for a 1 bit adder was very interesting. 4 were used. The addend and augend (Been a few years since I used those words!) input were switch positions, but the carry (true and comp.) inputs were generated from the lower bit switches. The sum output was 4 lamps+ carry, it was a 4 bit decimal machine. I thought of converting it to relays, but a straight substitution would require up to 6 pole units. No I don't have my copy now, it was from a interlibrary loan :). A similar book, which I do have is "Computer self-taught through Experiments" by J. Brayton, publisher Howard Sams, 1968. It used transistors, the last project was a 10 bit binary calculator. For those who remember part numbers, it used 50 2N107 transistors + 10 2N322 lamp drivers, 90 1N34 diodes, etc. for 10 flip-flops. -Dave From rcini at msn.com Tue Mar 2 20:02:02 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Tech Ref PC//AT Message-ID: <006801be651f$fea880c0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: Does anyone have a copy of the Tech Ref manual for the PC/AT that they can spare (temporarily -- I'll make a copy of it)? Specifically, I'm looking for a copy of the BIOS listing in the back, for educational purposes. Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From rcini at msn.com Tue Mar 2 20:11:42 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: More KIM docs to be posted Message-ID: <006a01be6520$01a37140$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: Courtesy of Ruud Baltissen, I have been given OCR'ed versions of the KIM "hints" book and the "user's guide". Over the next few days, I'll reformat them slightly and post them. Enjoy! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Mar 2 20:30:10 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: DEC LA75 printer Message-ID: <000201be651f$6c4dc460$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Trying again. I just discovered the listproc looks at every message and there is a hold command. Hold the setup button while you turn it on. It will then print its current setup. You can change values with the other buttons. The button names that are below the buttons are for the setup mode. You want the DEC emulation for VT420 etc. use and the "other" emulation is IBM proprinter. Dan >Anyone have a manual for the DEC LA75S-A2? This model has both parallel and >serial ports, although the serial port is the skewed RJ-45 connector. > >I haven't been able to find out anything about configuring/setting up this >printer. There seems to be a little info on the Web on how to set up up for >DOS/Windows, but I want to use it with DEC equipment (VT-220, VT340, Pro, >etc.), and I don't even have a new enough manual to give a description of it. > >It looks like it will take a font cartridge, too? Anything useful? > >Thanks, >Dave > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 2 22:57:30 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Tech Ref PC//AT In-Reply-To: <006801be651f$fea880c0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990302225730.307f24c8@intellistar.net> Rich, I don't have one for the AT but a friend doews. If you can't find one I'll see about borrowing his. I have Refs for the PC Jr, PS-2, IBM ProPrinter and some others. Joe At 09:02 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > Does anyone have a copy of the Tech Ref manual for the PC/AT that they >can spare (temporarily -- I'll make a copy of it)? Specifically, I'm looking >for a copy of the BIOS listing in the back, for educational purposes. > > Thanks! > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 20:55:43 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990302182955.2097a9f6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > It was me for one who mentioned it before. Oh, yeah. Did you tell me about this at TRW? > The drum was a metal can with contacts to 20 or so flashlight lamps. > Segments of the drum were covered up with tape so various lamps were lit > as one rotated the drum. The lamps were instructions for you to switch > the various knife switches, you rotated the drum to see the steps to > take. Ah, that must be what Derek meant. I didn't really look at the drum section, so I assumed it was magnetic. Shortly after reading this book, I went to pick up my mail. As fate would have it, a friend from NY sent me a computer brochure. It was for an educational computer from 1969. I swear it has the same attributes as the computer described in this book, but in a much more polished form. I'll scan a pic this week. It's really an amazing coincidence: same drum, same simulated core, simular looking ALU, .... -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 21:06:59 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 3, 99 02:29:24 am Message-ID: <199903030307.TAA04696@saul2.u.washington.edu> > IIRC, some suns have a bitmapped screen, but no hardware support for > combining bitmaps. The CPU has to fetch a word from video memory, flip > the appropriate bits and write it back. > > That's one reason why Suns were cheaper than PERQs all those years go... I think the console-mode code is also very simple. One Sun I used (not sure what kind, but it was probably < 10 years old) took 1-2 seconds to invert the screen in console mode but ran X quite normally. > Text modes on different PC graphics cards were pretty compatible. All > cards had a 4K text memory area, containing ascii codes and attributes in > alternate bytes. The attributes did vary between mono and colour cards, > but were actually somewhat related. Mono cards had the memory at one > address, colour cards at another address, so you can have one of each in > the same machine. Well, I guess I'm thinking of the VGA which may not be what you had in mind. There are two kinds of "extra" mode: Modes you get by tweaking the registers, and which any compatible VGA card should be able to do. (e.g., 80x43, 80x50, a few other ways to combine character sizes in pixels and screen sizes in scan lines; also 512-character sets, bright backgrounds, underlining in color). I think some of those were even on the EGA. Modes only certain manufacturers give you (usually because of extra screen resolutions the card can produce, possibly because of extra character sizes -- I think one card has 8x9 characters, and I may have read about a 90-column mode somewhere). Then of course there are entirely different graphics cards which is kind of a separate subject. My main complaint is about the software rather than the hardware, as I think I pointed out. In DOS, you can DO whatever you want (if you can find the documentation and if you know the card will handle it) but the OS has no concept of it. In Windows NT, the OS has a concept but it's VERY limited. I think the console API only promises 16 colors, which is pretty pathetic since even the EGA gives you a palette of 64. In my experience, NT just makes the situation too unreliable. I changed the subject from hardware to software when I started talking about end vs. means (in the last message). Sorry if you didn't pick up on it. Having the computer KNOW what you're doing with the video (as the Amiga and Acorn do) is much better. As I said, I changed the subject on you. I realize > > Just because nobody has defined the font you want, it doesn't mean you > can't have it. There is nothing to stop you having an > X/windows/Mac/PERQ/Sun/whatever font that contains the same bitmaps as > the VT220 character generator (well, DEC's copyright would probably > prevent it, but there's no _technical_ reason). As I said, I changed the subject on you. I realize it's possible and I just haven't found (done?) the answer yet. Actually, the font doesn't have to be EXACTLY the same. But the glyphs have to be the same shape. That's mostly a dig at Windows and Windows terminal emulators. CRT and Ewan have trouble with the VT*1*00 line-drawing characters (and sometimes the ISO Latin 1 characters, depending on the font I use). Actually, this whole message is degenerating into a rant against Windows. Maybe I should stop now. > > Does your clone card have color? What about its text modes? > > No, just a plain mono Hercules card. It has the standard 80*25 > MDA-compatible text mode and a bitmapped graphics mode. That's all. Oh. IIRC, the real Hercules offers one resolution in text mode (9x16 pixels per character times 80x25 characters = 720x350 resolution) and a different one (720x348?) in graphics mode. I always thought that was strange. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 21:11:31 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Mar 2, 99 09:55:43 pm Message-ID: <199903030311.TAA06524@saul2.u.washington.edu> Doug Yowza wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > > The drum was a metal can with contacts to 20 or so flashlight lamps. > > Segments of the drum were covered up with tape so various lamps were lit > > as one rotated the drum. The lamps were instructions for you to switch > > the various knife switches, you rotated the drum to see the steps to > > take. > > Ah, that must be what Derek meant. I didn't really look at the drum > section, so I assumed it was magnetic. Yes, that was more or less what I was thinking. My point was that IF you could get the switches to switch automatically (and the drum to turn) you would have a truly useful, automatic computer. Maybe with enough extra knife switches you could pull it off? :) > scan a pic this week. It's really an amazing coincidence: same drum, same > simulated core, simular looking ALU, .... Maybe the company is the same? Maybe the brochure authors just ripped off the design? :) -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 2 21:13:58 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: DEC LA75 printer In-Reply-To: <000201be651f$6c4dc460$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Mar 2, 99 09:30:10 pm Message-ID: <199903030313.TAA16765@saul2.u.washington.edu> > Trying again. I just discovered the listproc looks at every message and > there is a hold command. You learn new things every day. :) Two new things in this case. If this "interactive tutorial" feature were useful, I'd be much happier. At the moment I just think it's annoying. -- Derek From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 2 21:18:00 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: DEC LA75 printer Message-ID: <990302221800.21c0076b@trailing-edge.com> >Anyone have a manual for the DEC LA75S-A2? This model has both parallel and >serial ports, although the serial port is the skewed RJ-45 connector. MMJ. See the comp.os.ultrix FAQ for pinouts and comon adapter cables. >I haven't been able to find out anything about configuring/setting up this >printer. Hmm - my LA75 has a SETUP button on the front. Hold it down, power the printer up, you get a menu of options to change. Is the SETUP button not on yours? > There seems to be a little info on the Web on how to set up up for >DOS/Windows, but I want to use it with DEC equipment (VT-220, VT340, Pro, >etc.), and I don't even have a new enough manual to give a description of it. With DEC equipment, you plug it in, turn it on, and go. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 2 21:22:44 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Tech Ref PC//AT In-Reply-To: <006801be651f$fea880c0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the Tech Ref manual for the PC/AT that they >can spare (temporarily -- I'll make a copy of it)? Specifically, I'm looking >for a copy of the BIOS listing in the back, for educational purposes. I have seen these listings floating around the 'net. Try a web search. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Mar 2 21:32:41 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Doug wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > > > good looking copy of _IBM's Early Computers_ by Bashe, et al. from a > > reasonably priced book dealer in N. Cal. > > Aha, that was you! Yes, the competition is fierce even in the non-auction > space, but at ABE, the prize goes to the swift, not just the rich. > > -- Doug Um, Doug, maybe three weeks ago, in response to a question re: the Bashe book, I located seven (7) of them, and posted that info... I think the [e-bay/not e-bay] wars have taken their evil toll on you. I also got mine from the NorCal bookshop. And the reason I'm posting this? Neener-Neener-Neeeeener!!! :o Cheerz John PS: The signal-to-noise ratio *has* been pretty unfavorable, lately. > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 21:42:10 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: <199903030311.TAA06524@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Yes, that was more or less what I was thinking. My point was that IF > you could get the switches to switch automatically (and the drum to > turn) you would have a truly useful, automatic computer. Maybe with > enough extra knife switches you could pull it off? :) Then it'd be a Simon clone :-) The goal of this machine's design appears to be that it can be built with stuff laying around the house (paperclips, tin can for the drum, etc.). There were earlier machines, like the Minivac 601, which used motorized rotary switches and relays to push the "automation" envelope. I like the manual paperclip approach, but I agree that a fully automated paperclip computer would be way cool. Maybe it could powered by a pull-string gyroscope or a wind-up clock.... -- Doug From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 21:44:43 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, John Lawson wrote: > Um, Doug, maybe three weeks ago, in response to a question re: the > Bashe book, I located seven (7) of them, and posted that info... I > think the [e-bay/not e-bay] wars have taken their evil toll on you. I > also got mine from the NorCal bookshop. > > And the reason I'm posting this? Neener-Neener-Neeeeener!!! No neeners required. ABE still has several of them, but a couple of the nice condition low-priced copies I first requested were already taken.... -- Doug From at258 at osfn.org Tue Mar 2 22:15:13 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I mean, you get to meet industry legends > like Gordon Bell, you get to cavort with beautiful ladies in bikini's > (well ok, we didn't have the budget for this last year but I hope to have > beautiful ladies in bikini's roaming the exhibit area this year OK, well if you scrimp on things you can omit the bikinis...most of us won't mind. From amirault at epix.net Tue Mar 2 22:48:13 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Tech Ref PC//AT References: <3.0.1.16.19990302225730.307f24c8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36DCBF0C.E7128A8E@epix.net> Joe, Do you have any PCJr parts??? John Amirault Rich, I will look to see if I have a tech ref also. John Amirault Joe wrote: > Rich, > > I don't have one for the AT but a friend doews. If you can't find one > I'll see about borrowing his. I have Refs for the PC Jr, PS-2, IBM > ProPrinter and some others. > > Joe > > At 09:02 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello, all: > > > > Does anyone have a copy of the Tech Ref manual for the PC/AT that they > >can spare (temporarily -- I'll make a copy of it)? Specifically, I'm looking > >for a copy of the BIOS listing in the back, for educational purposes. > > > > Thanks! > > > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET > >[ ClubWin!/CW7 > >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > >[ Collector of "classic" computers > >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > > > > > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 2 22:54:07 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990302193235.2257ab52@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Anyway, his view is that if he takes a lower price then people will start > expecting him to sell cheaper. Therefore he sets a price and he doesn't > care how long it sets, he won't come off that price. Sooner or later he'll > scrap it. We just scrapped a brand new $100,000 circuit board component > placing machine today. It was brand new and was still in the original > (HUGE) crate. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! That is a ludicrous way to do business in my opinion. What have you gained from purchasing something, spending money to store it, and then deciding to write-off the whole thing rather than at least make a little money on it (or even break even). I just don't get it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Mar 2 23:56:09 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did a web search to see if I could find anybody who had built this paperclip computer. I didn't have much luck, but I found somebody who mentioned a song called "You Can Build a Mainframe from the Things You Have at Home." Has anybody heard this song? Anybody have the lyrics? I plan to order the tape tommorow: http://www.emery.com/funny.htm -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Mar 3 00:22:09 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs Message-ID: <199903030622.XAA12273@calico.litterbox.com> Dunno about the build a mainframe from things you have at home song, but Frank Hayes' S100 Bus is a hoot. I find myself singing it every time I get into the guts of a PC, especially the verse: There's a board for the modem line and one for every port and a printer board and a keyboard board and as a last resort for every problem we will add a board that is the cure it's not too damned efficient but it's a mother, that's for sure. Well it's Cheer up me Lads, let your hearts never fuss When you're implementing systems on the S100 bus. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 00:27:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: <199903030622.XAA12273@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > Dunno about the build a mainframe from things you have at home song, but > Frank Hayes' S100 Bus is a hoot. I find myself singing it every time I > get into the guts of a PC, especially the verse: > > There's a board for the modem line > and one for every port > and a printer board and a keyboard board > and as a last resort > for every problem we will add > a board that is the cure > it's not too damned efficient > but it's a mother, that's for sure. > > Well it's Cheer up me Lads, let your hearts never fuss > When you're implementing systems on the S100 bus. Someone wrote a friggin song about the S100 bus? Did we just reach new lows in nerdness? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Mar 3 02:03:58 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item Message-ID: <199903030803.DAA15698@platy.cs.unc.edu> In-Reply-To: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Doug wrote: ] On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Noel Fields wrote: ] > So far, the bid is 1.00 on it. Thought someone here might be interested :) ] ] If there was already a bid on it, somebody was obviously interested in it, ] but I guess he won't be getting it for $1 anymore :-( Doug wrote once before (21 Jan 1999): ... the moral is the same: if you're contemplating an action that has an equal chance of helping or hurting, watch a movie instead. That stuck in my head, because it has the Ring of Truth(TM) to it. Of course, if posting these "heads-up" messages has an equal chance of helping or hurting, then *failing* to post them does too, as does discouraging people from posting them. So how come people keep doing that, instead of watching movies? Anyway, as far as I can see, posting it here is a win, probabilistically, because it increases the chance that a list member will get the item. If I don't favor any particular list member, then posting the news here is the best way to get the item to the person that wants it most. Keeping it secret means hurting the guy that wanted it most, more than it helped the guy that wanted it less - a net loss. We are all friends here, right? Giving the same news to everybody is perfectly fair, and increases the chance that one of our friends will win (instead of a total stranger). As for the "logical extreme" of posting 17000 items from e-bay to here, nobody does that because, contrary to your assertion, it is not a duty to post these things; it is a nicety. Making the leap from that to "duty" is nuts. (And I think your guestimate of 17000 interesting items is high by about a factor of about 10000. But that's beside the point.) The more ridiculous the arguments become, the more obvious it is that you are just being selfish, and want the rest of the world to help you along with that. Prove me wrong here; the next time you find a great deal out there, post an article here saying how much you bid, and explaining why everyone else here should let you have it for that great price and not interfere. Explain why you deserve it more than anyone else. If you can't do that, then you have no right to be upset when people notify others whom they think will be interested, and those people bid. Having said all that, I must also point out that since another mailing list was set up just for posting these announcements, that is the most appropriate place. Snipped from another old message of Doug's (from 26 Jan 1999): ] ... the idea of an auction mailing list, so I've created one. ] You can subscribe by sending a message to: ] majordomo@nut.net ] with the body: ] subscribe ccauction ] ] I, for one, will not be on this new list, but I'll respond ] to admin requests. YOU ARE ALL HEREBY COMMANDED TO SUBSCRIBE! ... thus ending the notification wars once and for all. Hey, a guy can dream, can't he? :-) (BTW, is the ccauction list mentioned in the classiccmp FAQ?) Cheers, Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Mar 3 02:16:43 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? Message-ID: <199903030816.DAA15763@platy.cs.unc.edu> Is anyone out there actually tinkering with building a relay machine? The other day I found SPDT relays for less than a buck each in a Digi-Key catalog. Seems to me they were $0.81 each in quantities of 100 or more; maybe $1.06 each for 25. I know NPDT (N>1) is better, but for less than $1 each, this seems pretty good. Cheers, Bill. From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 23:44:50 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.19990302182955.2097a9f6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990302234450.11cfd020@earthlink.net> Hi Doug and all, At 09:55 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > >> It was me for one who mentioned it before. > >Oh, yeah. Did you tell me about this at TRW? I could have. I think I mentioned it about last July when Tony mentioned the book Automatic Digital Computers, by M.V. Wilkes. I am looking for any other books mentioned then and up to now. My list is getting longer. > >> The drum was a metal can with contacts to 20 or so flashlight lamps. >> Segments of the drum were covered up with tape so various lamps were lit >> as one rotated the drum. The lamps were instructions for you to switch >> the various knife switches, you rotated the drum to see the steps to >> take. > >Ah, that must be what Derek meant. I didn't really look at the drum >section, so I assumed it was magnetic. > >Shortly after reading this book, I went to pick up my mail. As fate would >have it, a friend from NY sent me a computer brochure. It was for an >educational computer from 1969. I swear it has the same attributes as the >computer described in this book, but in a much more polished form. I'll >scan a pic this week. It's really an amazing coincidence: same drum, same >simulated core, simular looking ALU, .... Please scan it. If it could be automated with relays as the "automatic" switches, it must look similar to Simon, as you mentioned. > -Dave From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 3 02:30:28 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamfest Message-ID: <01be6550$17ef4b60$e7c962cf@devlaptop> Hi Barry, I was thinking about attending the computershow in Dayton in a couple of weeks. You say that there is no flea market. Does that mean that (classiccomp) systems aren't sold there??? And can I get a general set of directions to the Hara.. Maybe we can do a lunch between or drink after the festivities Regards - MIke -----Original Message----- From: Barry A. Watzman To: Discussion re-collecting of classicmputers Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 11:31 PM Subject: Dayton Hamfest >The Dayton Hamfest is a fabulous show. It is THE LARGEST amateur radio convention [it's "official" purpose]. The Hara arena is a very good size facility, I'd guess in the over 100,000 sq. ft. range (perhaps WAY over), and it's all indoor, heated/air conditioned [not that it works with 35,000 people in the facility], and all commercial vendors, many, many of which are used computer and surplus dealers (there is lots of new stuff also). It's about 60%-70% computer, the rest general electronics and communications [radio] equipment. > >The flea market takes up the entire parking lot, in excess of 2,500 vendors. There are many commercial exhibits in the parking lot also, you will find a number of very large tents (10,000 square feet range each). Mendelson surplus always has a large tent, and almost every year Radio Shack [as in Tandy] collects their entire surplus and returned merchandise stuff from all over the nation and sends it all to a big tent at the Dayton Hamfest where it is sold for often ten cents on the retail dollar. However they didn't do this last year, for the first time I can remember, but they still had a huge indoor exhibit with many items, new, at 25% to 50% below normal store and catalog prices. > >The show is logistically difficult to attend for several reasons. First, it brings in so many people [over 25,000 plus a large local population] that poor Dayton, which is hardly a tourist mecca, is complete swamped. You can forget about finding a hotel at this point, the people who do this show get their reservations a year in advance. You may have to stay in Columbus or Cincinnati [both about 70 miles away], fortunately both are directly on an interstate highway and it's not a bad drive. The other problem is parking, since the entire lot is flea market there isn't any ! There are some LARGE fields around the complex that are used for parking, expect to pay $5 to $10 per day, and they are not paved, or very close, which become a real issue in bad weather. Then there are remote lots with busses, but that's a hassle also. > >The show is May 14, 15, 16. > >Here is an alternative, the Dayton Microcomputer association has a twice a year computer show at the same site. It's just about as large as the Hamfest, and it's ALL computer. There is no flea market, the parking lot is used for - surprise ! - PARKING ! It's almost like having 3 Dayton Hamfests a year, except that two of them don't have the flea market. This year's dates (it's only a two-day show): > >Spring: March 13-14 >Summer/Fall: August 28-29 > >I plan to attend all 3 events. > > > From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 3 02:38:59 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamfest Message-ID: <01be6551$48a0b2c0$e7c962cf@devlaptop> my apoligies, all... From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Mar 3 02:50:06 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <199903030803.DAA15698@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: [ah, the flame burns on due to digest readers] On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Of course, if posting these "heads-up" messages has an equal > chance of helping or hurting, then *failing* to post them > does too, as does discouraging people from posting them. So > how come people keep doing that, instead of watching movies? Mmm, philosophy is strictly forbidden here according to the FAQ, but I'd have to say a harmful act is not equivalent to the absense of a helpful act. > We are all friends here, right? Giving the same news to > everybody is perfectly fair, and increases the chance that > one of our friends will win (instead of a total stranger). I have no problem with that idea in principle. I simply see auctions as a special case. If a list member, or any other collector, expends the effort to ACTIVELY SEEK AN ITEM OUT, then I find it unfair for some third party to destroy the fruits of that effort by carelessly tossing a bone to a bunch of lazy bidders. > As for the "logical extreme" of posting 17000 items from e-bay to here, > nobody does that because, contrary to your assertion, it is not a duty > to post these things; it is a nicety. Making the leap from that to > "duty" is nuts. (And I think your guestimate of 17000 interesting items > is high by about a factor of about 10000. But that's beside the point.) I was responding directly to Marvin's assertion that it was "not right" to exclude any group. I took that to the logical extreme: it would be Marvin's duty to be all-inclusive if he felt it was not right to exclude anybody's interest. Of course, advertising even 17 ebay items per day here is absurd. So was the exclusion argument. > The more ridiculous the arguments become, the more obvious it is that > you are just being selfish, and want the rest of the world to help you OK, I'm selfish. But that's not the main reason that I dislike the practice of posting auctions here. Very rarely do these postings affect me directly. But they're like stray bullets. You never know when one of these completely ARBITRARY picks is going to cost you money and waste the time you spent hunting down some obscurity that somebody else happens to think is "neat" when he crossed it by accident. > along with that. Prove me wrong here; the next time you find a great > deal out there, post an article here saying how much you bid, and > explaining why everyone else here should let you have it for that great > price and not interfere. Explain why you deserve it more than anyone > else. If you can't do that, then you have no right to be upset when > people notify others whom they think will be interested, and those > people bid. How about a real-life example. I assume it's well known that I collect obscure early "toy" computers (among others). I've spent a fair amount of time researching to discover their existence, find out about their history, etc. And when I acquire one, I document it, gloat about it on the list, and present it to the world via the web. So, one day, some list member is searching ebay and comes across a Minivac by accident. Of course, I've been stalking this thing from the moment it appeared, and then suddenly "Hey everybody! Look at this neat thing on ebay! I have no idea what it is, but it sure is neat!" Within minutes, some other list member (known not to be a collector, BTW) bids the thing up to $200 or so. Sigh. And of course, the same scenario is repeated over and over again, and different list members, many of whom specialize in some niche, are struck by another random bullet. But what irks me most about this "service" is that there are literally 100's if not 1000's of interesting collectible computer items on any given day. I easily find *many* of them by spending just a few minutes a day using my patented semi-automatic techniques :-) So it makes absolutely no sense to me, and looks like pure noise to me, when I see somebody pick one or two or 10 of them at random here (with the side-effects described above). So, sure, I'm selfish and cheap. But am I wrong to expect to save a few bucks in exchange for the small effort I expend compared to those who say they want to do nothing but have these finds fed to them? -- Doug From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Mar 3 02:53:26 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: <199903030816.DAA15763@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Is anyone out there actually tinkering with building a relay machine? > The other day I found SPDT relays for less than a buck each in a > Digi-Key catalog. Seems to me they were $0.81 each in quantities of 100 > or more; maybe $1.06 each for 25. I know NPDT (N>1) is better, but for > less than $1 each, this seems pretty good. I've created a small private mailing list for a few people (including me) who are (thinking about) building relay machines. You can get relays pretty cheap at surplus electronic shops, but that doesn't sound like a bad deal for matching new relays.... -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 3 03:22:05 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Mar 3, 99 03:50:06 am Message-ID: <199903030922.BAA02974@saul9.u.washington.edu> > [ah, the flame burns on due to digest readers] And due to the fact that you missed the last message I admonished you with. (It was under a different subject. I should have learned my lesson the last time I did the same thing. And you were even *expecting* me to comment this time!) Since you (and the others involved in this debate) apparently didn't see it, I'll summarize it. This debate has the potential to go on forever. I'm skeptical about whether the two sides can agree. So can you at least keep the amount of traffic down? The day I wrote the previous comment, I got 56 messages in my mailbox. Of those, 15 -- more than one quarter -- were on this subject. Evidently Ye Othere Auncient & Secrete Auctionne Liste is not working very well. Oh well. > me directly. But they're like stray bullets. You never know when one of > these completely ARBITRARY picks is going to cost you money and waste the > time you spent hunting down some obscurity that somebody else happens to > think is "neat" when he crossed it by accident. [...] > But what irks me most about this "service" is that there are literally > 100's if not 1000's of interesting collectible computer items on any given > day. I easily find *many* of them by spending just a few minutes a day > using my patented semi-automatic techniques :-) So it makes absolutely no > sense to me, and looks like pure noise to me, when I see somebody pick one > or two or 10 of them at random here (with the side-effects described > above). In other words, you're attempting to beat the odds. So far you have succeeded pretty well. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just boiling the situation down. > So, sure, I'm selfish and cheap. But am I wrong to expect to save a few > bucks in exchange for the small effort I expend compared to those who say > they want to do nothing but have these finds fed to them? No. I too have been annoyed at seeing bids go up. (They were hardly "hidden" transactions, though.) But I would also take the pragmatic view that it's hard to win all the time when you try to beat the odds. If more and more people get involved in eBay auctions, my view will become more (depressingly) realistic. About on-topic-ness (is that a word?) -- I think this subject (eBay, eBay tips, eBay prices) is on topic. When it deals directly with classic computers it's very on-topic. When it turns into an "eBay prices are so high!" session, it's less on-topic. When it turns into a finger-pointing session, it's still on-topic, but only barely. It's also VERY monotonous for a LOT of people, I think. There is an alternative. If I actually screened all the messages on the list, I would weed out all the spam and junk, but I would get first pick at all the auction tip-offs! That's nice but it's hardly fair. And then people would stop posting them. You'd say that would be a relief, but it might also be a disservice. -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Mar 3 03:39:52 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <199903030922.BAA02974@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > In other words, you're attempting to beat the odds. So far you have > succeeded pretty well. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just > boiling the situation down. No, as I've said, these postings rarely affect me directly. I am honestly offended by the "unfairness" to those who are willing to spend the effort to find stuff vs the "helpfullness" to those who choose not to spend that effort. > But I would also take the pragmatic view that it's hard to win all the > time when you try to beat the odds. If more and more people get > involved in eBay auctions, my view will become more (depressingly) > realistic. Do you consider it "beating the odds" when you choose to attend a physical auction while somebody else decides to sleep in? > It's also VERY monotonous for a LOT of people, I think. Hell, it's VERY monotonous to me! But if somebody asks me something in public, I feel I have to respond in public. > There is an alternative. If I actually screened all the messages on the > list, I would weed out all the spam and junk, but I would get first pick > at all the auction tip-offs! That's nice but it's hardly fair. And > then people would stop posting them. You'd say that would be a relief, > but it might also be a disservice. I don't think anybody wants to give you editorial control :-) It'd be nice if there were a consensus on this subject, but there isn't. So, if it's OK with you, I'll agree to flame people in private whenever they do something that annoys the hell out of me. I won't make another public comment unless somebody addresses a public message to me (directly or indirectly). -- Doug From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Mar 3 03:48:02 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] Message-ID: <000a01be655a$f185eaa0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Enough is enough; this childish one-upmanship and thoughtless bandwidth-wasting public argument about a topic which is of little interest to me, but more to the point where neither party will ever convince the other party that they're wrong has forced me to take the plunge. I realised long ago that the only way to win these sorts of arguments is NOT TO PARTICIPATE. Thanks to everyone who has refrained from adding to the pointless debate. To the others - the only way to win is not to play. Have a think about that. I have unsubscribed, and will not see any replies unless they are directed to my personal email. A -- Andrew Davie adavie@mad.scientist.com Museum of Soviet Calculators http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html Yahoo! Netscape, New Scientist, The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and UK Independant Cool Site! From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Mar 3 04:10:02 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] In-Reply-To: <000a01be655a$f185eaa0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > I have unsubscribed, and will not see any replies unless they are directed > to my personal email. Jeez, two grand gestures on this list in just two days. What the hell, let's make it three. I could use a break. Please accept my grand unsubscription too. -- Doug From pechter at pechter.ddns.org Wed Mar 3 06:48:05 1999 From: pechter at pechter.ddns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Mar 2, 1999 10:27:47 pm" Message-ID: <199903031248.HAA01521@pechter.ddns.org> > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Dunno about the build a mainframe from things you have at home song, but > > Frank Hayes' S100 Bus is a hoot. I find myself singing it every time I > > get into the guts of a PC, especially the verse: > > > > There's a board for the modem line > > and one for every port > > and a printer board and a keyboard board > > and as a last resort > > for every problem we will add > > a board that is the cure > > it's not too damned efficient > > but it's a mother, that's for sure. > > > > Well it's Cheer up me Lads, let your hearts never fuss > > When you're implementing systems on the S100 bus. > > Someone wrote a friggin song about the S100 bus? Did we just reach new > lows in nerdness? > You should hear "You can build a mainframe from the things you have at home" and "Mr. Compatibility..." Anyone know where I can order a copy, I lost mine. (I hear there's a tape of Star Trek songs by the same guy...) Bill From pechter at pechter.ddns.org Wed Mar 3 07:06:48 1999 From: pechter at pechter.ddns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 In-Reply-To: <199903010631.WAA11767@shell2.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Feb 28, 1999 10:31:30 pm" Message-ID: <199903031306.IAA01721@pechter.ddns.org> > > Now if only I could remember if I've renewed my membership :^( > > Zane > I called DECUS over the phone, read 'em my old number and they reactivated it on the spot. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 3 09:20:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Tech Ref PC//AT In-Reply-To: <36DCBF0C.E7128A8E@epix.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990302225730.307f24c8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990303092057.41975440@intellistar.net> John, Nope, sold everything to Phil Clayton. I missed the Tech Ref when I was gathering it up. Joe At 11:48 PM 3/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Joe, >Do you have any PCJr parts??? >John Amirault > >Rich, >I will look to see if I have a tech ref also. >John Amirault > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 3 09:20:38 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990302193235.2257ab52@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990303092038.4e675d74@intellistar.net> At 08:54 PM 3/2/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Anyway, his view is that if he takes a lower price then people will start >> expecting him to sell cheaper. Therefore he sets a price and he doesn't >> care how long it sets, he won't come off that price. Sooner or later he'll >> scrap it. We just scrapped a brand new $100,000 circuit board component >> placing machine today. It was brand new and was still in the original >> (HUGE) crate. > >That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! That is a ludicrous way to do >business in my opinion. What have you gained from purchasing something, >spending money to store it, and then deciding to write-off the whole >thing rather than at least make a little money on it (or even break even). >I just don't get it. > Sam, I agree completely. You're better off to get something for it instead of nothing IMO. He thinks he's keeping the prices up by doing it that way, but price doesn't matter if you can't sell it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 3 09:28:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: <199903030816.DAA15763@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990303092832.2507f1e2@intellistar.net> Bill, I've heard that it was tried in the old days but that relays wore out VERY quickly and they could never get anything larger than a very small computer to work. In addition, most relays contacts have some chatter and those caused false signals to be sent. Joe At 03:16 AM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >Is anyone out there actually tinkering with building a relay >machine? The other day I found SPDT relays for less than a >buck each in a Digi-Key catalog. Seems to me they were $0.81 >each in quantities of 100 or more; maybe $1.06 each for 25. >I know NPDT (N>1) is better, but for less than $1 each, this >seems pretty good. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 3 09:34:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <199903030803.DAA15698@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990303093414.4e671198@intellistar.net> At 03:50 AM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >[ah, the flame burns on due to digest readers] Um, Doug, I would say it burns on because you can't restrain yourself from making a response to every comment that someone makes. Don't you realize how childish this makes you look? Did, did not, did too, did not, did too. Cripes! Drop it or take it off-line. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 3 10:32:02 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Still OT was Re: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <199903030922.BAA02974@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990303103202.4e67126c@intellistar.net> OK this is getting way OT but I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in. At 04:39 AM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> In other words, you're attempting to beat the odds. So far you have >> succeeded pretty well. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just >> boiling the situation down. > >No, as I've said, these postings rarely affect me directly. I am honestly >offended by the "unfairness" to those who are willing to spend the effort >to find stuff vs the "helpfullness" to those who choose not to spend that >effort. In that case you should be against E-bay and shouldn't use it since it lets the "lazy" people find stuff easily instead of having to go dig it out of dumpsters or the back corner of surplus stores. When are you going to quit using E-bay? > >Do you consider it "beating the odds" when you choose to attend a physical >auction while somebody else decides to sleep in? Yes, or when the other person can't attend because they have a 9 to 5 job. It's also an advantage or "beating the odds" when you have internet access and the other guy doesn't. > >> It's also VERY monotonous for a LOT of people, I think. > >Hell, it's VERY monotonous to me! But if somebody asks me something in >public, I feel I have to respond in public. I'm not trying to be rude but they really didn't ask you. They are expressing their opinions. You don't have to reply to every message. > >> There is an alternative. If I actually screened all the messages on the >> list, I would weed out all the spam and junk, but I would get first pick >> at all the auction tip-offs! That's nice but it's hardly fair. And >> then people would stop posting them. You'd say that would be a relief, >> but it might also be a disservice. > >I don't think anybody wants to give you editorial control :-) It'd be >nice if there were a consensus on this subject, but there isn't. So, if >it's OK with you, I'll agree to flame people in private whenever they do >something that annoys the hell out of me. I won't make another public >comment unless somebody addresses a public message to me (directly or >indirectly). Fair enough. What do you mean a "public message (directly or indirectly)"? Sounds like you're saying that you'll continue to post every time you see a message about it. Joe From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 3 09:04:59 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Doug wrote: > I did a web search to see if I could find anybody who had built this > paperclip computer. I didn't have much luck, but I found somebody who > mentioned a song called "You Can Build a Mainframe from the Things You > Have at Home." Has anybody heard this song? Anybody have the lyrics? It's an old filksong, I know I've got it on a tape entitled "The World's Funniest Computer Songs". When I get home tonight I'll see about posting lyrics/order info. The tape has some dynamite stuff. "Uncle Ernie's Used Computer Babbage's Birthday Bargain Bash" is especially on-topic for this list. Let's see, one of my favorites has a transcription of its lyrics around somewhere, hang on, ... Ah. Threes, revision 1.1 Lyrics by Duane Elms Music by Leslie Fish Deep in engineering, down where mortals seldom go A manager and customer come looking for a show; They pass, amused, among us and they sign in on the log They've come to see our pony and they've come to see our dog. Three things to be wary of: A new kid in his prime, A man that knows the answers, and code that runs first time. Summoned from our cubicles, to conference room we go We bring our dog and pony, 'cause we know they'll want a show, Watching while we enter, with a shifty, restless eye The customer sits waiting in his pin-striped suit and tie. Three things never trust in: That's the vendor's final bill The promises your boss makes and the customer's good will. The pony kicks his heels up as the doggie does his trick, And hams it up with vigor as we lay it on real thick; The customer just watches as we do this song and dance Then reaches for his briefcase, only giving us a glance. Three things see no end: a loop with exit code done wrong, A semaphore untested, and the change that comes along. From briefcase then there comes a list of things we must revise; And all but four within the room are taken by surprise. And all but four are thinking of their last job with remorse, The customer, the manager, the doggie and the horse. Three things hold no secrets: files that somehow hit the net The boss's secretary, and the third thing ... I forget. First, twenty-one new features that we somehow must add in Then, thirty-seven changes show up, much to our chagrin; And this thing's just inadequate, and that thing's just plain wrong And, by the way, your schedule plan's about three months too long. Three things it is better far that only you should know: How much you're paid, the schedule pad, and what is just for show. The customer proceeds to go through each change, line by line Excruciating detail which no logic can divine; And when it ends, there's only four not sitting there agog The customer, the manager, the pony and the dog. Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your deck, The one who does the backup and the one who signs your check. Now we are contract software types who spend our days and nights Imbedded in the system, down with all the bits and bytes; And none but us can tell full well the damage done today, It's what they do not know for which they're gonna have to pay. Three things are most perilous: connectors that corrode Unproven algorithms and self-modifying code. The manager and customer are quick to leave this bunch They take the dog and pony, and they all go out to lunch; Now how will we avenge ourselves on those who raise our ire? Write code that self-destructs the day the warranties expire. Three things trust above all else: Your knowledge of your craft, That someone turns a profit, and that you will get the shaft. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 3 09:13:59 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Dunno about the build a mainframe from things you have at home song, but > > Frank Hayes' S100 Bus is a hoot. I find myself singing it every time I > > get into the guts of a PC, especially the verse: > > Someone wrote a friggin song about the S100 bus? Did we just reach new > lows in nerdness? Actually, Frank wrote the song at least twelve or so years ago. I've had a tape from the late Off Centaur Productions containing it for that long. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Mar 3 09:42:36 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] In-Reply-To: References: <000a01be655a$f185eaa0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Message-ID: >On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > >> I have unsubscribed, and will not see any replies unless they are directed >> to my personal email. > >Jeez, two grand gestures on this list in just two days. What the hell, >let's make it three. I could use a break. Please accept my grand >unsubscription too. The solution is called a email filter. If "eBay" or "auction" is in the message subject filter the message to a trash folder. I don't see quiting when things don't go your way as a grand gesture. I am also willing to bet everyone will return, moth to flame sort of thing. High volume lists take a toll on the brain, and I know enough of them that I can't stay subcribed to more than a couple at a time, so I take vacations from several of them for months at a time. Feels good leaving, feels good coming back. One last bit on "eBay" I don't buy very much at all on eBay, the prices are just too high. Its a sellers market right now, so I try to keep a few items up for bid all the time, and I am pleased to report things are selling well over local swapmeet prices. Some items I still bid on, and grumble over when I miss the bid, or more likely roll my eyes when I see the final bid amounts. Other items, I prefer to hunt for. It spoils the fun for me to find what I want at a market price just sitting on a shelf. Price is part of it, but not all of it, I want to find my choice bit in the bottom of a box or in some lost corner of a warehouse. I am a junk tiger, and don't like my prey ground up and put in a dish. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 3 10:04:43 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From kevan at heydon.org Wed Mar 3 10:10:30 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: UK: The Haddock Book Message-ID: I know the Thomas Haddock book, A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators, is not well liked around this group, but I just thought I would mention that there is a copy in my local book store (Heffers) and if there is anyone in the UK that wants it then I could get it for them. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Mar 3 10:11:09 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Unsubscriptions Message-ID: u I guess this is on-topic for the moment. Two of my on-line friends have unsubscribed from this list publically; only Derreck is in a position to know how many have lapsed silently. It is the old usenet/mailist syndrome. A disagreement starts, escalates, sides are chosen, persons come in halfway and add distorted fuel, endless changes are rung on is/is not, did/did not, me/no, me!... etc ad nauseum. And when the noise achieves it's sustained reaction peak, valuable contributors take the step of severing thier connection with the source of the noise... be it bandwidth, emotional, harrasment, or other klinds of Internet 'noise'. The response that always works for me is the 'delete' function in my mail software. I personally refuse to descend the slippery slope of Victim Conciousness, no matter how alluring the bottom might seem. I don't like some of the discussions posted here, but I have a noise blanker in Pine, invoked by pressing 'D' once for each instance of a noisy message. And I take responsibility for what I write, and for the manner in which I respond to others using this medium of expression. Okay this is too long. Heavily moderated lists are quiet but necessarily fascistic. Not a bad thing, qua the list in question. Loosely moderated lists generate fabulous discussion and info, but suffer what we now see on classiccmp. A rhetorical question: on what emotional level do you engae this List, and the Net in general? A lot of people espouse Anarchy and Chaos, until one fine night the other Anarchists decide they want your farm more than you do.... :} Cheers John PS: I hope Andrew and Doug reconsider in the fulness of time. I will miss them. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 3 10:12:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program V2.0 In-Reply-To: <199903031306.IAA01721@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Mar 3, 99 08:06:48 am Message-ID: <199903031612.IAA25121@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 685 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/a3b6a8f3/attachment.ksh From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 3 10:18:30 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: <199903031612.IAA25121@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Weeks of visits to the local Goodwill paid off last night. I even missed it on the first pass..... I snagged an Apple ][c LCD panel with attached ][c last night for the grand price of $29.99. This completes my Apple ][ collection! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 3 09:58:27 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: References: <199903030803.DAA15698@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990303095827.0107c970@vpwisfirewall> At 03:50 AM 3/3/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > >Of course, I've been stalking this thing from the moment it appeared, and >then suddenly "Hey everybody! Look at this neat thing on ebay! I have no >idea what it is, but it sure is neat!" Within minutes, some other list >member (known not to be a collector, BTW) bids the thing up to $200 or so. >So, sure, I'm selfish and cheap. But am I wrong to expect to save a few >bucks in exchange for the small effort I expend compared to those who say >they want to do nothing but have these finds fed to them? Who's to say that the Minivac isn't worth $200? Price is set between buyer and seller. It's all about value. You think you deserve the lowest price possible, untainted by the bidding of your buddies on the CCC list, because you work so hard. Might you be consoled by knowing that the $200 bidder worked hard, too, to either find that machine, cultivate its history, or earn the $200? After all, you don't know the characteristics of the buyer. Or are you distracted by your envy? All is clouded by desire, Grasshopper, like dust on a mirror. - John From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 3 10:39:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamfest References: <01be6550$17ef4b60$e7c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36DD65D8.146BD637@rain.org> Mike wrote: > > Hi Barry, > > I was thinking about attending the computershow in Dayton in a couple of > weeks. You say that there is no flea market. Does that mean that > (classiccomp) systems aren't sold there??? And can I get a general set of > directions to the Hara.. > > Maybe we can do a lunch between or drink after the festivities Hi Mike, et al, Right now, a friend of mine and I have hotel reservations for Thursday through Saturday, and my current plans are to leave on Sunday. Who is interested in getting together? Saturday during the day is tied up with ARDF activities, and several of us who are trying to build up the US ARDF team will be meeting tenatively Friday evening. Right now, I have most of Friday planned to visit the flea market, and probably parts of Sunday also. Dayton is getting closer! From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 11:01:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: e-bay item In-Reply-To: <199903030803.DAA15698@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > We are all friends here, right? Giving the same news to > everybody is perfectly fair, and increases the chance that > one of our friends will win (instead of a total stranger). But what if one of our friends here already has a bid on it? But you don't know because that person is a lurker? You've just hurt that persons chances by "helping" everyone here. A net loss. > The more ridiculous the arguments become, the more obvious > it is that you are just being selfish, and want the rest of If he was only objecting when an item that he was bidding on got posted I would agree with you, but I think Doug is genuinely interested in seeing others get good deals that are otherwise ruined when the item is announced on this list. Doug is a complex emotional creature. Making a simple assumption such as he is "just being selfish" is too simplistic an assertion. > Having said all that, I must also point out that since another > mailing list was set up just for posting these announcements, > that is the most appropriate place. Snipped from another old > message of Doug's (from 26 Jan 1999): > <...> > > ... thus ending the notification wars once and for all. You'd think so but some people are just stubborn. There are just too many smart people with egos here (I'm one of them, although I fear my "ego" overshadows my "smart" :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 3 11:05:41 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: UK: The Haddock Book References: Message-ID: <36DD6BE5.86A1325C@rain.org> Kevan Heydon wrote: > > I know the Thomas Haddock book, A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers > and Pocket Calculators, is not well liked around this group, but I just I, for one, like it very much. When I first got a copy of it probably 5 years ago, I could tell it was obviously incomplete, but it still provides information and pictures of some important machines. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Mar 3 11:14:30 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:43 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <199903031612.IAA25121@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Weeks of visits to the local Goodwill paid off last night. > >I even missed it on the first pass..... > >I snagged an Apple ][c LCD panel with attached ][c last night for the >grand price of $29.99. > >This completes my Apple ][ collection! Phase one lets hope. ;) What is the LCD like to use, or is it less a practical and more a completeness item? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 3 11:39:07 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon Message-ID: <8efab591.36dd73bb@aol.com> In a message dated 3/3/99 11:22:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes: > Weeks of visits to the local Goodwill paid off last night. > > I even missed it on the first pass..... > > I snagged an Apple ][c LCD panel with attached ][c last night for the > grand price of $29.99. > > This completes my Apple ][ collection! > good job! of course, it doesnt beat the LCD i found complete in box previously used for $3. lol. i've found its really not all that great though. i wouldnt use it on a regular basis as it is just too dark. all i need is a //c+ and my apple collection is complete also. david From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 3 11:46:11 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike, LCD's have come a very long way since the Apple ][c LCD panel came out. As near as I can tell there is no backlight. There is a single switch that can reverse the pixel polarity to either be light text on a dark background or dark text on a light background. At the time this product originally came out I thought it was great as with a 12 volt converter this made the Apple ][c into a luggable machine and I even remember someone marketing Solar Cells to power the whole thing. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >Weeks of visits to the local Goodwill paid off last night. > > > >I even missed it on the first pass..... > > > >I snagged an Apple ][c LCD panel with attached ][c last night for the > >grand price of $29.99. > > > >This completes my Apple ][ collection! > > Phase one lets hope. ;) > > What is the LCD like to use, or is it less a practical and more a > completeness item? > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 11:46:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: <8efab591.36dd73bb@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > good job! of course, it doesnt beat the LCD i found complete in box previously > used for $3. lol. i've found its really not all that great though. i wouldnt > use it on a regular basis as it is just too dark. all i need is a //c+ and my > apple collection is complete also. I'll trade you an Apple //c+ for the //c LCD display. It's sort of a Catch-22 but then life is filled with hard decisions. ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 3 11:45:57 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: e-bay item Message-ID: <01be659d$b1c4fb20$a7c962cf@devlaptop> I've been pretty quiet this go around... I am however tentatively planning on spamming the hell out of ccauctions with beannie baby sale notifications... Those bastards have ruined this list ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 3 11:47:53 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamfest Message-ID: <01be659d$f68477e0$a7c962cf@devlaptop> Marvin, e t al... How about an early breakfast Sat morning somewhere convenient? - Mike -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Dayton Hamfest >Mike wrote: >> >> Hi Barry, >> >> I was thinking about attending the computershow in Dayton in a couple of >> weeks. You say that there is no flea market. Does that mean that >> (classiccomp) systems aren't sold there??? And can I get a general set of >> directions to the Hara.. >> >> Maybe we can do a lunch between or drink after the festivities > >Hi Mike, et al, > >Right now, a friend of mine and I have hotel reservations for Thursday >through Saturday, and my current plans are to leave on Sunday. Who is >interested in getting together? Saturday during the day is tied up with ARDF >activities, and several of us who are trying to build up the US ARDF team >will be meeting tenatively Friday evening. Right now, I have most of Friday >planned to visit the flea market, and probably parts of Sunday also. > >Dayton is getting closer! > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 3 11:59:38 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I appreciate the offer of the ][+ for the LCD panel but I'm afraid this one is a keeper. And I already have a ][c+. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > good job! of course, it doesnt beat the LCD i found complete in box previously > > used for $3. lol. i've found its really not all that great though. i wouldnt > > use it on a regular basis as it is just too dark. all i need is a //c+ and my > > apple collection is complete also. > > I'll trade you an Apple //c+ for the //c LCD display. It's sort of a > Catch-22 but then life is filled with hard decisions. > > ;) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always hasslin' the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 12:55:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] In-Reply-To: <000a01be655a$f185eaa0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > pointless debate. To the others - the only way to win is not to play. Have > a think about that. OK, WOPR. We've learned our little _War Games_ moral for the day :) > I have unsubscribed, and will not see any replies unless they are directed > to my personal email. Shit. We've pissed off Andrew again. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always hasslin' the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 3 12:58:28 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: in Tin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In one batch of donations, we received a Golden II. It appears to be an Apple II clone. Does anyone know anything about these? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Mar 3 13:03:31 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, George Rachor wrote: > LCD's have come a very long way since the Apple ][c LCD panel came out. True... > As near as I can tell there is no backlight. True... > At the time this product > originally came out I thought it was great as with a 12 volt converter > this made the Apple ][c into a luggable machine and I even remember > someone marketing Solar Cells to power the whole thing. Trivia Question: (Compu-Nerd time - practice for the Nerd Trivia Contest at VCF III!) What movie had a scene with the lead character sitting on a beach with their trusty (?) Apple ][c complete with LCD display panel??? (we will assume that they were supposed to be doing something useful) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 3 14:16:20 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Space shuttle computers In-Reply-To: <19990218044921.28267.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199902180309.AA22695@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) Message-ID: <199903031915.UAA08482@horus.mch.sni.de> (Just reaching the Internet/Shuttle thread :) > The best information I have suggests that the Space Shuttle does not > use the Honeywell DDP-516 in any capacity, and that engine control is performed > by the some of the IOP processors that are part of the IBM AP-101S > computers. The entire AP-101S, including both the GPC and IOP, occupies > about 0.025 cubic meters, masses about 30 Kg, and consumes about 550 W. > A DDP-516 occupies about 2.5 cubic meters, masses about 250 Kg, and consumes > over 1000 W. AFAIK the first generation of rocket controll computers (thrust, angle, etc.) had HDC-601 processors (with plate wire core mem), And if I'm not completly wrong, the HDC-601 is a DDP-516 compatible system. I don't know if the shuttle engines have been equipped with them, since the actual controlers are (since the mid 80s) are based on 68.000 processors. And for the AF-101, I always belived the last core mem unit was named AF-101F not B, as mentioned in another message. In fact, I love the idea of using a /370s design CPU - It's just the best OPcode design ever :) BTW, does anybody know if a new design is planed ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 3 13:59:57 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamfest References: <01be659d$f68477e0$a7c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36DD94BC.DE71474B@rain.org> Hi Mike, That might be okay, but it really depends on what the others there are doing, and that hasn't been determined yet. FWIW, my only purpose in attending is to help promote ARDF (I was a member of the US team that competed at the World Championships in Hungary last year) and that will take precedence. Since the ARDF Forum starts at 8:15, my guess is that I will most likely be having breakfast rather early with the other speakers. The possibility of meeting with other listmembers is a big bonus to the trip! Hmmm, this raises another point that if we have stuff to trade with each other, that would save shipping costs. I still don't know if I will be driving (my preference) or flying in. Mike wrote: > > Marvin, e t al... > > How about an early breakfast Sat morning somewhere convenient? > > - Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 12:17 PM > Subject: Re: Dayton Hamfest > > >Mike wrote: > >> > >> Hi Barry, > >> > >> I was thinking about attending the computershow in Dayton in a couple of > >> weeks. You say that there is no flea market. Does that mean that > >> (classiccomp) systems aren't sold there??? And can I get a general set > of > >> directions to the Hara.. > >> > >> Maybe we can do a lunch between or drink after the festivities > > > >Hi Mike, et al, > > > >Right now, a friend of mine and I have hotel reservations for Thursday > >through Saturday, and my current plans are to leave on Sunday. Who is > >interested in getting together? Saturday during the day is tied up with > ARDF > >activities, and several of us who are trying to build up the US ARDF team > >will be meeting tenatively Friday evening. Right now, I have most of Friday > >planned to visit the flea market, and probably parts of Sunday also. > > > >Dayton is getting closer! > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 3 15:02:11 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lisa screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <36D30470.C5E4F6B7@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199903032001.VAA11115@horus.mch.sni.de> > ACONIT recently acquired an Apple Lisa. It appears to be fully > functional except that the video signnal is shited right horizontally > about an inch or two. Doeas anyone know of an adjustment for this? Servus Hans, I may have the needed documentation within my LISA haul from last year. If you are in Munich (I supose, since John's invitation did contain your address) we may have a look. Servus hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 3 15:07:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lisa screen adjustment In-Reply-To: <199903032001.VAA11115@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <36D30470.C5E4F6B7@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199903032007.VAA11367@horus.mch.sni.de> OOOOPS! This wasn't supposed to go to the list... Sorry H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From frer at vnet.es Wed Mar 3 14:27:18 1999 From: frer at vnet.es (Francisco Rodrigo Escobedo Robles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > Trivia Question: (Compu-Nerd time - practice for the Nerd Trivia Contest > at VCF III!) What movie had a scene with the lead character sitting on a > beach with their trusty (?) Apple ][c complete with LCD display panel??? > > (we will assume that they were supposed to be doing something useful) 2010 What's the prize? :) --- Francisco Rodrigo Escobedo Robles - mailto:frer@vnet.es This message is just my opinion right now From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 14:35:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > Trivia Question: (Compu-Nerd time - practice for the Nerd Trivia Contest > at VCF III!) What movie had a scene with the lead character sitting on a > beach with their trusty (?) Apple ][c complete with LCD display panel??? I think this is either a question we came up with for the Nerd Trivia Challenge last year or someone already posted this (I know I've seen it before). At any rate, it was Roy Scheider in 2010. What movie featured a group of kids who traveled into space with a ship they built controlled by an Apple //c? (I hope someone knows...I know the movie but not the name :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Mar 3 14:50:07 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon Message-ID: <01BE658D.83AA1AF0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Wednesday, March 03, 1999 3:35 PM, Sellam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@ncal.verio.com] wrote: > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > > Trivia Question: (Compu-Nerd time - practice for the Nerd Trivia Contest > > at VCF III!) What movie had a scene with the lead character sitting on a > > beach with their trusty (?) Apple ][c complete with LCD display panel??? > > I think this is either a question we came up with for the Nerd Trivia > Challenge last year or someone already posted this (I know I've seen it > before). At any rate, it was Roy Scheider in 2010. > > What movie featured a group of kids who traveled into space with a ship > they built controlled by an Apple //c? > > (I hope someone knows...I know the movie but not the name :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > EXPLORERS I'll donate the prize to VCF III ;-) Steve Robertson - From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 3 14:59:37 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon Message-ID: <199903032059.AA23923@world.std.com> >What movie featured a group of kids who traveled into space with a ship >they built controlled by an Apple //c? I think it was 'Explorers', starring a very young River Phoenix as the computer nerd... all the schematics for the devices which produced oxygen for them, surrounded them with a force field, and allowed them to translate from position to position all came to them in dreams... I loved the space aliens in it (obviously brother and sister) who had stolen their parent's space vehicle... the brother talked in sound bites from old tv shows... It comes on once in awhile on HBO (or can be rented)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 3 15:29:23 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 2010... > > Trivia Question: (Compu-Nerd time - practice for the Nerd Trivia Contest > at VCF III!) What movie had a scene with the lead character sitting on a > beach with their trusty (?) Apple ][c complete with LCD display panel??? > > (we will assume that they were supposed to be doing something useful) > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 3 15:35:02 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why "Explorers" of course.... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > What movie featured a group of kids who traveled into space with a ship > they built controlled by an Apple //c? > > (I hope someone knows...I know the movie but not the name :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From ss at allegro.com Wed Mar 3 15:43:47 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: S-100 Mystery board In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990301093203.09d7918a@intellistar.net> References: <01BE636D.07097D00@slip-32-100-187-34.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <199903032143.NAA26691@bart.allegro.com> Re: PIICEON memory board: > also the IC at 9B is missing and the board screening does not identify what > should go there. > > Mine has a DM74LS11N made by National Semiconductor there. You may want > to verify that with Stan S. The chip in 9B on mine is marked: 7927A SN74LS11N made in Malaysia. (Sorry, lost Barry's address, so this isn't going directly to him) Stan From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Mar 3 15:50:35 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: 30-pin SIMMS References: <19990228191943825.AAA206@fuj03> Message-ID: <36DDAEA9.979C582F@bigfoot.com> No worse than the DIP DRAM chips preceeding the SIPPS, and at least on a SIPP you could see a bent pin unlike one that bent under on a DIP DRAM chip or any other mucho-insertion-force item. They had it right on vacuum tubes-make solid pins that are hardy and round. It was rare in my old radio days that I'd ever bend a pin, especially on the HV tubes (you bend one of those and you really f***ed up) Richard Erlacher wrote: > Originally, the SIPP was considered much more reliable than the SIMM. The > SIMM sockets were a new product at that time and failure rates were pretty > high, and it was easy to package a system more densely with SIPPs than with > SIMM's. It was easy to bend the pins on the SIPP's, though, and retailers > soon tired of having to hand-hold customers whose problems were simply bent > pins, as, once bent, the pins tended to bend again and again until they > were broken and repair was improbably if at all possible. Consequently, > SIMMs, though less reliable but easier to install, and less likely, in > either event, to sustain long-term damage took over the market. > Ultimately, socket problems were defeated by persistence, educating the > user public, and improved socketing technology. > > Dick > > ---------- > > From: Max Eskin > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: 30-pin SIMMS > > Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 9:10 PM > > > > On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > >A SIPP is exactly a SIMM with pins soldered on - even the pinouts are > the > > >same. And thus SIPPs suffer from bent pins, just like individual chips > > >do. That's why they went out of fashion. > > > > But why did anyone attach the pins in the first place? > > > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 13:14:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990302182955.2097a9f6@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Mar 2, 99 06:29:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/a78ad182/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 13:17:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Tech Ref PC//AT In-Reply-To: <006801be651f$fea880c0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Mar 2, 99 09:02:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/7d65020b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 13:47:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Mar 2, 99 10:42:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/9fb3406c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 13:53:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: <199903030622.XAA12273@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Mar 2, 99 11:22:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1321 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/140451b8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 13:56:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 2, 99 10:27:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/f4fbc863/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 14:04:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Mar 3, 99 03:53:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/c53f2d26/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 13:39:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903030307.TAA04696@saul2.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 2, 99 07:06:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3207 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/f4d5cc85/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 14:09:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] In-Reply-To: <000a01be655a$f185eaa0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> from "Andrew Davie" at Mar 3, 99 08:48:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/b75e9950/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 14:07:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990303092832.2507f1e2@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 3, 99 09:28:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990303/3266c5f6/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 3 16:49:20 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 3, 99 07:39:28 pm Message-ID: <199903032249.OAA05811@saul9.u.washington.edu> > You want(ed) the console code to be small (so it would fit into the > EPROMs), reliable (much harder to update than something on disk), and > possibly even to work on defective hardware (so you could do diagnostics). I hadn't thought about the "defective hardware" angle. > > My main complaint is about the software rather than the hardware, as I think > > I pointed out. In DOS, you can DO whatever you want (if you can find the > > documentation and if you know the card will handle it) but the OS has no > > concept of it. In Windows NT, the OS has a concept but it's VERY limited. > > I think the console API only promises 16 colors, which is pretty pathetic > > since even the EGA gives you a palette of 64. In my experience, NT just > > makes the situation too unreliable. > > Hmmm... As soon as you get to multitasking OS's, you really do need a way > for the OS to realise that a particular program is changing screen modes, > etc. Otherwise all hell will break loose. That's why MS-DOS lets you hit > the hardware directly, while NT (and linux for that matter) insist you > use the OS for this Oddly, NT does seem to let programs change screen modes on their own. I can start a program in console (full-screen text) mode and it will successfully switch to some nonstandard graphics mode. (Borland-compiled programs are particularly flagrant about that.) But this doesn't always work, depending on the video card and maybe other things. Also, context-switching may mess up the screen. I get a lot better results with Win '95, and sometimes I have to use DOS. The ironic downside, of course, is that DOS is such a terrible OS. I think there are some write-only registers on many video cards. Write-only registers are on my list of things that wouldn't go in a computer I designed. That's mostly because of context-switching and expandability -- it's foolish to assume that no one will ever need to read from those registers. But I think we discussed that subject a while ago, so I'll stop. My point is that the NT code must be very frightening. > I guess, thought, you're moaning that NT doesn't provide enough > functionality to do what you want. And unlike linux you can't add it in. Right. :) The published graphics API for console-mode programs is very weak. (A console program can run in a full-screen text mode or inside a window on the desktop. It doesn't have to be a DOS program; it can use all the services of NT.) You get less functionality than a real EGA card under DOS would give you. It could have something to do with the multiple-CPU design of NT. Actually, though, I think MS just doesn't want to deal with the problem. They probably don't see the irony, which is that they helped _create_ the problem in the first place. -- Derek From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 3 16:44:01 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon Message-ID: <9d6bd737.36ddbb31@aol.com> In a message dated 3/3/99 5:30:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbg@world.std.com writes: > >What movie featured a group of kids who traveled into space with a ship > >they built controlled by an Apple //c? > > I think it was 'Explorers', starring a very young River Phoenix as > the computer nerd... all the schematics for the devices which > produced oxygen for them, surrounded them with a force field, > and allowed them to translate from position to position all came > to them in dreams... > > I loved the space aliens in it (obviously brother and sister) > who had stolen their parent's space vehicle... the brother talked > in sound bites from old tv shows... > > It comes on once in awhile on HBO (or can be rented)... > it was a neat movie especially since it showed the //c but i always thought it was stupid that they made the apple continually make disk drive access noises to make people think it was "working" david From gareth.knight2 at which.net Wed Mar 3 11:42:27 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board Message-ID: <000101be65c8$df396de0$df2bfea9@gaz> Lawrence Walker wrote: > Yeah, but the last time I looked they wanted something like $500 for Executor. The demo version is free and can read Mac disks. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 3 18:59:43 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Space shuttle computers Message-ID: <19990304005820921.AAA218@fuj03> I don't know what all this stuff means, but NASA paid Martin Marietta, where I worked back in those days, a LOT of dough, and provided documentation labeled Honeywell and showing pictures, though they were not relevant, of a model 516 computer. I spent six months or more poring over schematics, struggling to keep my eyes open, and making note of any potential race conditions, running logic simulations, etc, just to document all the potential single-point failure modes and their potential effect. We found several conditions which seemed to be "bugs" in the system, capable of creating catastrophic failures resulting in loss of lives and billions of dollars' worth of equipment, but those were "ground-ruled-out," meaning that, for example, a power supply failure in the mode wherein it drifts completely out of regulation, is a "normal" operating circumstance and need not be considered . . . but, I digress . . . The fact is, dladies and gentlemen, that the proposition of the time was that the engine controllers were Honeywell 516's, whatever that means. There was talk of installing a 68000-based computer in their place because semiconductor memories were faster, and a system of that type was superior for many reasons, not the least of which was modern read-only memories would allow much better testing. The plated-wire memories in use on the Challenger engine controllers allowed fault conditions which were not detected to be inherited from a previous mission, which risks went completely away with the newer design. It's not hard to imagine that such an upgrade would save on power and weight, as well as providing much more testability. It should also be enough faster to improve the system considerably. Dick ---------- > From: Hans Franke > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Space shuttle computers > Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 12:17 PM > > (Just reaching the Internet/Shuttle thread :) > > > The best information I have suggests that the Space Shuttle does not > > use the Honeywell DDP-516 in any capacity, and that engine control is performed > > by the some of the IOP processors that are part of the IBM AP-101S > > computers. The entire AP-101S, including both the GPC and IOP, occupies > > about 0.025 cubic meters, masses about 30 Kg, and consumes about 550 W. > > A DDP-516 occupies about 2.5 cubic meters, masses about 250 Kg, and consumes > > over 1000 W. > > AFAIK the first generation of rocket control computers > (thrust, angle, etc.) had HDC-601 processors (with plate > wire core mem), And if I'm not completly wrong, the HDC-601 > is a DDP-516 compatible system. I don't know if the shuttle > engines have been equipped with them, since the actual > controlers are (since the mid 80s) are based on 68.000 > processors. > > And for the AF-101, I always belived the last core mem unit > was named AF-101F not B, as mentioned in another message. In > fact, I love the idea of using a /370s design CPU - It's just > the best OPcode design ever :) > > BTW, does anybody know if a new design is planed ? > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 3 19:42:11 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > I have lost count of the number of commerical VT100 emulators that don't > behave in the same way as a real VT100 (or even in the same way that the > VT100 documentation states). I've been known to use a real, DEC, VT100 to > prove the fault was the terminal emulator and not the machine I was > connecting to. IMHO, if a VT100 does a particular thing, then anything > claiming to emulate a VT100 must do the same thing. That means the (alleged) VT100 emulator has to also have switches (software switches) to pack in an emulation of specific VT100 ROM versions -- some "real" VT100s are also poor emulators when you stretch the envelope set by another VT100 revision level. And let's not think about the "VT100 mode" of a VT320. Actually, I think most of the software VT100 emulators are based on the behavior of DEC's VT100 emulation in other DEC terminals. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 3 19:48:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 3, 99 08:42:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/3b7a1c3b/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 3 22:02:56 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990303141437.544f4682@ricochet.net> At 09:59 AM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >And I already have a ][c+. Okay, so what's a ][c+ (or //c+)? And how does one distinguish it from the normal, run-of-the-mill //c? (Preferably without having to open it up?) Are they worth picking up (//c or //c+) for trading fodder? Anyone need a //c? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 22:13:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > A similar book was printed in the UK. I was called 'We built our own > computers' and descibed some switch + lamp + relay machines built at (the > equivalent of) a high school. Oh yes. I have this book. It was one of the first computer books I ever added to my collection way back in 1987. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 22:23:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Someone wrote a friggin song about the S100 bus? Did we just reach new > > lows in nerdness? > > You are _suprised?_. I'm not.. I've come across songs about the internals > of the PERQ, about RSX, about unix, about.... Actually, on second thought I take that back. These songs demonstrate to an extent that the computer culture is more rich than people might imagine. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From gzozman at escape.ca Wed Mar 3 22:30:18 1999 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Twinax cabling question References: <19990304005820921.AAA218@fuj03> Message-ID: <36DE0C5A.17E41276@escape.ca> Sorry to bother the list with this (probably) basic question, but here goes. When assembling twinax patch cables, do the centre conductors in the coax need to be connected to the connector pins with any regard to polarity? I noticed that one conductor is copper colored and the other is silver, and this has me wondering if there is a reason for this color code. Thanks! Please reply to me personally if this is too far OT. Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca From hansp at digiweb.com Wed Mar 3 22:32:49 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lisa screen adjustment References: <199903032001.VAA11115@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <36DE0CF1.207FA08@digiweb.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > > ACONIT recently acquired an Apple Lisa. It appears to be fully > > functional except that the video signnal is shited right horizontally > > about an inch or two. Doeas anyone know of an adjustment for this? > > Servus Hans, > I may have the needed documentation within my LISA haul from last year. > If you are in Munich (I supose, since John's invitation did contain > your address) we may have a look. Our problem is solved, Sellam pointed me to the correct web page. Re my visit to Munich, is appears that it will happen but one wek earlier on the 16th March. When it is more certain I will Email you and John. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 3 22:57:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990303141437.544f4682@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > Okay, so what's a ][c+ (or //c+)? And how does one distinguish it from the > normal, run-of-the-mill //c? (Preferably without having to open it up?) > Are they worth picking up (//c or //c+) for trading fodder? Anyone need a > //c? A //c+ is an improved version of the //c. For starters, it had a 3.5" drive instead of a 5.25". It ran at a clock speed of about 3.3Mhz (instead of ~1Mhz). It had an internal power supply (instead of an external brick). It may have come with more RAM standard. I think there was something special about the built-in ports that the //c didn't have. //c's are pretty plentiful but it was Apple's first portable, so no serious collector should be without one. The //c+ is a bit harder to come across, but not impossible by any stretch. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 3 23:54:21 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ References: Message-ID: <36DE200D.98E1E077@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > A //c+ is an improved version of the //c. For starters, it had a 3.5" > drive instead of a 5.25". It ran at a clock speed of about 3.3Mhz I gather then that the most obvious way of checking is to look at the disk drive? Were there any markings on the case (like a "+") to distinguish the two? From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 4 00:11:43 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990303141437.544f4682@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990303221143.00de9e30@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:02 PM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >At 09:59 AM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >>And I already have a ][c+. > >Okay, so what's a ][c+ (or //c+)? And how does one distinguish it from the >normal, run-of-the-mill //c? (Preferably without having to open it up?) >Are they worth picking up (//c or //c+) for trading fodder? Anyone need a >//c? Short form... the ][c+ has an integral 3.5 inch drive, where the ][c has an integral 5.25 inch drive... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Mar 3 19:36:26 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board In-Reply-To: <000101be65c8$df396de0$df2bfea9@gaz> Message-ID: <199903040638.BAA25559@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Mar 99 at 17:42, Gareth Knight wrote: > Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Yeah, but the last time I looked they wanted something like $500 for > Executor. > > The demo version is free and can read Mac disks. > -- > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 > http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" > It's been a long time since I checked it out. I remember it was dead-slow on my Mac-Plus. To be expected on an emulator. For simple transferring I found the MacDisk prg. and it's companion programs from Duhem in France the best. http://www.macdisk.com Transmac is not bad either. Of course with the newer Macs you don't need them. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 4 01:03:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ In-Reply-To: <36DE200D.98E1E077@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > A //c+ is an improved version of the //c. For starters, it had a 3.5" > > drive instead of a 5.25". It ran at a clock speed of about 3.3Mhz > > I gather then that the most obvious way of checking is to look at the disk > drive? Were there any markings on the case (like a "+") to distinguish the > two? Yes, the //c+ has (strangely enough) a "//c+" emblem on the top left corner of the unit. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Mar 3 20:20:21 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Lucky day in Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990303221143.00de9e30@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3.0.16.19990303141437.544f4682@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199903040722.CAA28624@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Mar 99 at 22:11, James Willing wrote: > At 08:02 PM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: > >At 09:59 AM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: > >>And I already have a ][c+. > > > >Okay, so what's a ][c+ (or //c+)? And how does one distinguish it from the > >normal, run-of-the-mill //c? (Preferably without having to open it up?) > >Are they worth picking up (//c or //c+) for trading fodder? Anyone need a > >//c? > > Short form... the ][c+ has an integral 3.5 inch drive, where the ][c has > an integral 5.25 inch drive... > > -jim > > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > The ][c+ also had an 8-pin mini-DIN serial port as opposed to the 5 pin mini on the ][c ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From black at gco.apana.org.au Thu Mar 4 17:37:26 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:44 2005 Subject: Found today... Message-ID: <36DF1935.3F705D26@gco.apana.org.au> Added the following to my growing collection today : Commodore 1201 monochrome monitor ($2) works too. Triumph Adler Alphatronic PC, came with monitor, cables by the bucketload, manuals & 2 external 320k floppies. This one cost $12. It powers up with Microsoft ROM Basic 5.1, but apparently can also run CP/M, so will see what I can do with it....... it originally had a system disk as well, but that no longer exists. If you power on with no disk in the first drive, it won't work ...... What I didn't get : An old HEAVY Osbourne 8088 "portable" (sure - if you've got a crane), they've put it aside for me - next week!. An HP 85 - this one looks interesting, it has a full sized (88) key keyboard, also a tiny 5" green monitor built in, as well, it has a built in printer (dot matrix I *think*), that has a paper roll about 4" wide, not sure exactly what this thing is, anyone know ? (this also is put aside). An IBM (no model number) two internal side-by-side black 3.5" floppies, non-standard monitor connector, PS/2 style mouse & k/brd connectors, small grey box, about the width of a normal keyboard, 5" high, about 12" deep. On the rear "Manufactured by IBM Japan 1987" nothing else. And the final one, at first sight it looked like two floppy drives in a box, closer inspection showed that it was actually a PC of some description, standard RS232 & Centronics port at rear, looks like a normal 9 pin RGB connector & a k/brd connector that was 25 pins, 13 on top, 12 on bottom. Only identification was "Made in South Australia by Australian Typewriters, lisenced from Ohio Computers USA (c) 1980" They want $20 which is a little hexy for something unknown, with no manuals, or keyboard. Oh, the TA is up for grabs (in Australia) if anyone wants it for my cost price plus postage. Cheers, Lance From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 4 03:29:55 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990303141437.544f4682@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 09:59 AM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >>And I already have a ][c+. > >Okay, so what's a ][c+ (or //c+)? And how does one distinguish it from the >normal, run-of-the-mill //c? (Preferably without having to open it up?) >Are they worth picking up (//c or //c+) for trading fodder? Anyone need a >//c? Everyone needs a IIc, but some don't know it yet. ;) IIc Basically a Apple IIe with all the trimmings in a nice small cheap package. First time I saw one I knew I had to get it, and the feeling hasn't changed. It is laptop sized, cute little handle in the back, works with a TV or video monitor, and well its cute. It also seems durable like the early II series given the samples I have seen that survived grade schools. IIc plus (mine has the word plus in nice script after the IIc on the case). The last effort at the Apple II series (discontinued in 1993 or something?). I find it the perfect compliment to the IIgs (which is faster etc. and has slots, but isn't a cute little portable thing). Builtin power supply, and 3.5 instead of 5.25 inch internal floppy drive are the obvious differences (along with the "plus" on the case). The IIc+ uses the smaller Din8 connectors like the IIgs, and will support 4 floppy drives (great little copy station.). Retail price information Its weird, so sorry if this isn't much of an explaination. On eBay the IIc+ is the prized machine, and a nice complete system sells for $75. At swapmeets the IIc gets grabbed up, especially complete systems which I have seen "traders" buy for $40 and smile. Apparently this is something to do with Kawai (Japanese appreciation of "cute" items), and the units are shipped to Japan. I have had such traders offer to trade me straight across a IIc+ for a IIc (w PS), and I bought my IIc+ for $10 while a trader was haggling with the dealer for a $40 IIc system and ignoring the IIc+. Go figure. Retail fair prices: IIc+ $35 IIc $11 IIc external power supply $10 IIc matching green monitor $12 IIc matching monitor stand $8 IIc LCD display $35 External drives vary from $5 to $12 Manuals, original software, and assesssories $25 to $50 From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Mar 4 04:16:15 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Found today... Message-ID: <002801be6628$09c0ae20$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >An IBM (no model number) two internal side-by-side black 3.5" floppies, >non-standard monitor connector, PS/2 style mouse & k/brd connectors, >small grey box, about the width of a normal keyboard, 5" high, about 12" >deep. On the rear "Manufactured by IBM Japan 1987" nothing else. Sounds like an IBM PC JX. Apparently when the IBM PC JR failed in the US market, they sold the design to IBM Japan who revamped it, called it the JX and sold it in places like Australia. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Mar 4 05:54:10 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: goodbye [was e-bay item] References: <000a01be655a$f185eaa0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Message-ID: <36DE7460.833BDFB3@bigfoot.com> Didn't Andrew do this before? Just ignore what erks you and get on with what interests you. This hot attitude ought to be fun when you get spam in your inbox....It's not enough of a big deal to drop out when the only real reason anyone subcribes is for info and help. Andrew Davie wrote: > Enough is enough; this childish one-upmanship and thoughtless > bandwidth-wasting public argument about a topic which is of little interest > to me, but more to the point where neither party will ever convince the > other party that they're wrong has forced me to take the plunge. > I realised long ago that the only way to win these sorts of arguments is NOT > TO PARTICIPATE. Thanks to everyone who has refrained from adding to the > pointless debate. To the others - the only way to win is not to play. Have > a think about that. > I have unsubscribed, and will not see any replies unless they are directed > to my personal email. > A > -- > Andrew Davie adavie@mad.scientist.com > Museum of Soviet Calculators > http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html > Yahoo! Netscape, New Scientist, The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and UK > Independant Cool Site! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 4 08:35:43 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ In-Reply-To: <36DE200D.98E1E077@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990304083543.3a3739ec@intellistar.net> At 09:54 PM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> A //c+ is an improved version of the //c. For starters, it had a 3.5" >> drive instead of a 5.25". It ran at a clock speed of about 3.3Mhz > >I gather then that the most obvious way of checking is to look at the disk >drive? Were there any markings on the case (like a "+") to distinguish the >two? > Yes, the IIc+ is plainly marked "Apple IIC Plus" in the upper left corner. I *think* the IIc+ is also smaller than the IIc but I'm not sure. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 4 08:49:45 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990304084945.1da71cec@intellistar.net> At 07:47 PM 3/3/99 +0000, Tony wrote: > >[Time for ARD's rant that model engineers only seem to make steam >engines, for all there are many other interesting machines that can be >built with the same tools] > You should get a subscription to Strickly IC then. They deal with nothing but internal combustion engine. (Ever seen a 1/4 scale Pratt & Whitney Radial?) They have some great articles. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 4 08:17:33 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: FT: RL01-A printset Message-ID: <4.1.19990304091243.00921bd0@206.231.8.2> Greetings DEC gang: I need an RL02 printset. I have an extra RL01-A printset. Will anybody trade? I'll take a good xerographic copy. If a copy, I would like it kinda sized to fit in my DEC blue prinset binders with my other prinsets. Thanks much. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 4 08:35:48 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Q: RL01 --> RL02 switching mods Message-ID: <4.1.19990304091206.009e5470@206.231.8.2> Hi folks, A week or so ago there was discussion of modifications to switch an RL02 drive to read (only) RL01 discpaks. I want to perform this mod to one of my RL02s as I have RL01 pacs I want to keep on hand. Could any of you provide the details to this mod? That's why I want to trade an RL01-A printset for an RL02 as seen in my previous msg. I could use a 'roadmap' to help me with this and for future repairs if needed. The SN's of the two RL02s are CX 34389 and CX 34390, if that has any relevance to the modification. Thanks for your help! Regards, Chris PS: I'm getting back into trying to get the 11/34A system up and running. I have the rack and components down in my basement shop now. (My body is still sore. That empty BA-11K and empty 6-foot rack are heavy! :) I will likely be asking a few questions as to why I wasn't able to get a bootup going last autumn and how to fix it. I'm really just a hardware newbie for now. -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Thu Mar 4 09:46:29 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter Message-ID: <8025672A.00566D5E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > Anyone heard of the old newsletter Cursor? Is there anyone out there > with backissues that might be persuaded to photocopy a few? I seem to recall - I was about 15 at the time so I could never afford it - Cursor was a newsletter for the Commodore PET that came on (or accompanied by) a cassette full of fun programs. Does this tally with other people's memories, or am I thinking of some'at else? Philip. From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Thu Mar 4 09:43:50 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 & 4052 Message-ID: <8025672A.00563F49.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > I'm posting this to the list so you can't say I didn't do my homework. > I tracked down a 4051 that I saw mentioned on the web and asked about it. > Here's their response: > > Greetings Joe, > I have had your e-mail on my to do list for > sometime but the alligators have been chasing me on other chores. Any > how The tek 4051 is about 1976 vintage and it is only recently that we > disposed of them to our surplus place. We had 4051, 4052 ,plotter, > joystick and a printer. I still have all the manuals and microfiche for > them I think. > The address for our surplus unit is . > > I'm already working on trying to get the manuals and to find out about > their surplus disposal. Keep up the good work! I never meant to imply that you had failed to do any homework... Philip. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 4 11:07:56 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter In-Reply-To: <8025672A.00566D5E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Mar 4, 99 03:46:29 pm Message-ID: <199903041707.JAA06538@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/8a0ed384/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 4 11:28:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > IIc external power supply $10 More like $5 > IIc matching green monitor $12 > IIc matching monitor stand $8 $8 just for the monitor stand? Both together should only fetch $10. > IIc LCD display $35 This is way out of touch. I've never seen a //c LCD display go on the net for under $200 (this includes newsgroups and not ebay so this is not an inflated price, not many of these were made). Of course if you're lucky you'll find one in a thrift store for $3. > Manuals, original software, and assesssories $25 to $50 You mean a bundle right? $50 is pretty high for a bundle of software and manuals and had better include a whole lot of stuff (like a trunkload). A decent stack of manuals and software would only be half a grocery bag and should be $10 - $15 at the most. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 4 11:30:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990304083543.3a3739ec@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Yes, the IIc+ is plainly marked "Apple IIC Plus" in the upper left > corner. I *think* the IIc+ is also smaller than the IIc but I'm not sure. Nope, its the same exact dimensions. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 4 11:33:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > Yes, the IIc+ is plainly marked "Apple IIC Plus" in the upper left > > corner. I *think* the IIc+ is also smaller than the IIc but I'm not sure. > > Nope, its the same exact dimensions. I should add that the //c+ may be lighter than the //c since it has a 3.5" drive rather than the 5.25". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 4 12:42:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Found today... In-Reply-To: <36DF1935.3F705D26@gco.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <199903041740.SAA00268@horus.mch.sni.de> > Triumph Adler Alphatronic PC, came with monitor, cables by the > bucketload, manuals & 2 external 320k floppies. > This one cost $12. It powers up with Microsoft ROM Basic 5.1, but > apparently can also run CP/M, so will see what I can do with it....... > it originally had a system disk as well, but that no longer exists. If > you power on with no disk in the first drive, it won't work ...... I'm again impressed how far they have traveled - I always belived the TA-PC was a very German, or at maximum European sold unit, but Not I have seen not only some in the US including US OEM versions, but they are also present in down under ... > Oh, the TA is up for grabs (in Australia) if anyone wants it for my cost > price plus postage. Roger ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 4 12:42:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.16.19990303141437.544f4682@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199903041741.SAA00296@horus.mch.sni.de> > IIc LCD display $35 Has this display ever been sold in large numbers ? Is it easy to get? I never found one over here in Germany. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Mar 4 11:58:26 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It may have the smaller drive but the Power supply is built in. I'll weigh them tonight and give a report. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > > > Yes, the IIc+ is plainly marked "Apple IIC Plus" in the upper left > > > corner. I *think* the IIc+ is also smaller than the IIc but I'm not sure. > > > > Nope, its the same exact dimensions. > > I should add that the //c+ may be lighter than the //c since it has a 3.5" > drive rather than the 5.25". > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Mar 4 12:02:29 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: <199903041741.SAA00296@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: I talked with someone that is still with Apple computer and his belief is that the ][c LCD display made by Apple had one production run of only about 2000. There was also a third party LCD panel that I have no information on. At the time it was introduced it was percieved as slightly better as it had adjustable contrast. Anyone got information on this one? Can I also make the assumption that the Apple ][c LCD panel will also plug into the ][c+? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > IIc LCD display $35 > > Has this display ever been sold in large numbers ? > Is it easy to get? I never found one over here in Germany. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Mar 4 12:37:08 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ Message-ID: <19990304183708.21885.rocketmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> ---Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > > IIc external power supply $10 > > More like $5 > > > IIc matching green monitor $12 > > IIc matching monitor stand $8 > > $8 just for the monitor stand? Both together should only fetch $10. I recently picked up a //c+ (never seen one before), monitor, stand, external Laser 5.25" drive, mouse, two Imagewriter I's, manuals, no disks for $15 at a Hamfest. I considered it a good deal. -ethan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 4 13:12:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, George Rachor wrote: > It may have the smaller drive but the Power supply is built in. Yes, but the power supply does not add that much weight. I think you'll find the //c+ is lighter due to the significant difference in weight between a 5.25" drive and a 3.5". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From Jgzabol at aol.com Thu Mar 4 13:16:52 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? Message-ID: <8f8e775d.36dedc24@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 03.03.99 09:57:34 MEZ, schreibt Doug: << On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Is anyone out there actually tinkering with building a relay machine? > The other day I found SPDT relays for less than a buck each in a > Digi-Key catalog. Seems to me they were $0.81 each in quantities of 100 > or more; maybe $1.06 each for 25. I know NPDT (N>1) is better, but for > less than $1 each, this seems pretty good. I've created a small private mailing list for a few people (including me) who are (thinking about) building relay machines. You can get relays pretty cheap at surplus electronic shops, but that doesn't sound like a bad deal for matching new relays.... >> Hi Doug, would you mind to keep me informed ? Before turning to tube equipment, I studied relays. In my way of doing things, strict register transfer logic, a computer is no more general than a counter (on the base level), so I built two different relay counters to see how the technology feels like. It did not agree with me, so I turned to tubes. But still, I would find it quite interesting to see what you do ! You are aware of the Halle site on Zuse Z3? www.informatik.uni-halle.de\~thurm\z3 Regards John G. Zabolitzky From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 4 13:47:51 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? Message-ID: <01BE664D.FB3F7EF0.steverob@hotoffice.com> >But still, I would find it quite interesting to see what you do ! I am also interested in relay driven logic. This seems to be more OT than much of the discussion here so, I'd like to see updates posted to the group. Does anyone have objections to that? Steve Robertson - From elvey at hal.com Thu Mar 4 14:04:13 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: <8f8e775d.36dedc24@aol.com> Message-ID: <199903042004.MAA10151@civic.hal.com> Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > I > Is anyone out there actually tinkering with building a relay machine? > > The other day I found SPDT relays for less than a buck each in a > > Digi-Key catalog. > > would you mind to keep me informed ? Before turning to tube equipment, > I studied relays. In my way of doing things, strict register transfer logic, > a computer is no more general than a counter (on the base level), > so I built two different relay counters to see how the technology feels like. > It did not agree with me, so I turned to tubes. But still, I would find it > quite interesting to see what you do ! Hi If I was to build an electronic visual computer, I would use neon lights. All the logic functions can be done with these and the results are visual. NE2's can be bought in bulk for a few cents each. I built a relay combination lock once but I used relays and doides to cut down on the number of contacts needed. Dwight From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Mar 4 15:09:31 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer Message-ID: <19990304130520.1ed73cac.in@mail.pressstart.com> John Lawson said: > I take this trenchant opportunity to remind the Assembled > Faithful that > > www.abebooks.com > > is, IMHO a rilly bitch'n place to score Olde Computer Books. > > I have just today gotten my copy of "Digital Techniques for >Computation and Control, 1958... full of killer pix of cool old >iron, which will go to swell the many megabytes of scans I'm I prefer to use BookFinders http://www.bookfinder.com/ because they search Powell's Books, Amazon.com, Bibliocity, YourBooks.com, Antiqbook AND Advanced Book Exchange with just one search. My latest score? "BRAINIACS: 201 Small Electric Brain Macines, and how to make them, Including all 33 Geniacs (1955), All 13 Tyniacs (1956), and 155 Brainiacs (1957-1958-1959). Illustrated by Ann B. Baker. Berkeley Enterprises, Inc., Newtonville, Mass. (1959). FIRST PRINTING." When I received the book, I found that 3 of the chapters in pamphlet form (published before 1959) were also included. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 4 15:15:30 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Relay Logic, was Re: Z3 builders? References: <01BE664D.FB3F7EF0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <36DEF7F2.7122DCC8@rain.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > > >But still, I would find it quite interesting to see what you do ! > > I am also interested in relay driven logic. This seems to be more OT than > much of the discussion here so, I'd like to see updates posted to the > group. It sounds like by OT, you mean "On Topic." As I was thinking about this, another fairly far out idea occurred to me; has anyone tried to simulate a relay logic computer using a PLC? I am currently doing some PLC programming (PLC Direct) and it seems like a *very* easy way of testing out circuits before actually building them. Nobody can claim I am not lazy :). From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 4 15:20:38 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer References: <19990304130520.1ed73cac.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <36DEF926.BD36FA01@rain.org> Doug Coward wrote: > > My latest score? > "BRAINIACS: 201 Small Electric Brain Macines, and how to make them, > Including all 33 Geniacs (1955), All 13 Tyniacs (1956), and 155 > Brainiacs (1957-1958-1959). Illustrated by Ann B. Baker. Berkeley > Enterprises, Inc., Newtonville, Mass. (1959). FIRST PRINTING." > When I received the book, I found that 3 of the chapters in > pamphlet form (published before 1959) were also included. Nice find! I just did a check, and it looks like two are still available ... at $150 each, just a little out of my current price range. Sure sounds like a neat book though!!! From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Mar 4 15:23:49 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Twinax cabling question References: <19990304005820921.AAA218@fuj03> <36DE0C5A.17E41276@escape.ca> Message-ID: <36DEF9E3.E10E30BE@bigfoot.com> Grant Zozman wrote: > Sorry to bother the list with this (probably) basic question, but here goes. > > When assembling twinax patch cables, do the centre conductors in the coax need > to be connected to the connector pins with any regard to polarity? I noticed > that one conductor is copper colored and the other is silver, and this has me > wondering if there is a reason for this color code. > > Thanks! Please reply to me personally if this is too far OT. > > Grant Zozman > gzozman@escape.ca The two center conductors are to the pins, and the gold/copper conductor goes to the hole in the insulator that has the black dot. You slip on the backnut, rubber washer (groove in it to the pin end), then the spacer with the angle on it (with the angle towards the rubber washer) then pull the exposed 3/8" braid down over it and put the cup shaped spacer over it with the cup to the braid you just laid over. Then you can crimp the pins onto the conductors and spread them to go into the plastic spacer, putting the copper colored one to the black dot side. Then index the outer body and put it all together and screw the back nut down, then lightly tighten the backshell to the body to prevent it from coming apart. Help any? Other than the pins, everything else is reusable. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 4 14:58:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 3, 99 08:23:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 510 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/2cc9f3b3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 4 14:59:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Twinax cabling question In-Reply-To: <36DE0C5A.17E41276@escape.ca> from "Grant Zozman" at Mar 3, 99 10:30:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/5dd1d52e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 4 15:02:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990304084945.1da71cec@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 4, 99 08:49:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 867 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/6687c16b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 4 15:15:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Q: RL01 --> RL02 switching mods In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304091206.009e5470@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Mar 4, 99 09:35:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/31cbed11/attachment.ksh From mark_k at iname.com Thu Mar 4 16:46:22 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Classiccmp digest #698 Message-ID: Hi, Could someone who is subscribed to the digest version of the list please (compress and) email me a copy of digest #698? I lost it due to problems with my mail software. Somewhat on-topic question: can someone recommend a program, to run under MS-DOS (or maybe Windows) that is capable of reading a file (in the tape sense) from a SCSI tape drive. Not interpreting the file at all, just being able to copy it to disk. -- Mark From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 4 17:13:32 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Reading old SCSI tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990304171332.00fd6100@vpwisfirewall> At 10:46 PM 3/4/99 +0000, Mark wrote: > >Somewhat on-topic question: can someone recommend a program, to run under >MS-DOS (or maybe Windows) that is capable of reading a file (in the tape >sense) from a SCSI tape drive. Not interpreting the file at all, just being >able to copy it to disk. What sort of tape drive? If it's supported under Linux, and it probably is, then 'dd' would certainly do it. I've got some very old utilities that work with my Exabyte for DOS that might help, too. Even under NT, the tape interface API is quite simple and there are 'dd' equivalents that might be able to handle it. - John From musicman38 at mindspring.com Thu Mar 4 17:31:24 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (musicman38@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter Message-ID: <000401be6697$1f534bc0$5882cdcf@server> >> Anyone heard of the old newsletter Cursor? Is there anyone out there >> with backissues that might be persuaded to photocopy a few? >I seem to recall - I was about 15 at the time so I could never afford it - >Cursor was a newsletter for the Commodore PET that came on (or accompanied >by) a cassette full of fun programs. >Does this tally with other people's memories, or am I thinking of some'at >else? >Philip. Yes I have a couple dozen of the Cursor Magazines, They used to be one of my favorites, Also Run Magazine, and the very best was Transactor Magazine. All published in the 80's Phil.. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 4 16:34:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: <199903042004.MAA10151@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 4, 99 12:04:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990304/6cebe562/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 4 17:46:49 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Reading old SCSI tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990304171332.00fd6100@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990304154351.00bf0100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Sigh, I've had this problem as well and not found a decent solution for it. What Mark needs is a program that talks to the ASPI DLL to get access to the SCSI bus directly. Sure it can be done under Linux or any other UNIX like operating system on x86 hardware but when the tape drive is connected to a PC running windows and there is no opportunity to install a different OS, then this problem arises. --Chuck At 10:46 PM 3/4/99 +0000, Mark wrote: >Somewhat on-topic question: can someone recommend a program, to run under >MS-DOS (or maybe Windows) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ At 05:13 PM 3/4/99 -0600, John Foust wrote: >What sort of tape drive? If it's supported under Linux, and it probably is, ^^^^^^ From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 4 19:55:28 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Book Review: How to Build a Working Digital Computer References: Message-ID: <36DF3990.2AED24EE@hotoffice.com> Since we were on the subject of old computer books, I decided to stop by the thrift store and dig a little deeper in their book shelves. I found a book with the title "Switching Circuits And Logical Design" by Samuel H. Caldwell. It's a first edition copyrighted 1958 and is in *perfect* condition. Apparently Dr. Caldwell was a major contributor to the development of early computer systems at MIT. The book is approx 700 pages and is extremely _heavy_ reading. DUH! Most of the book deals with relay logic and theoretical mathematics although there is some discussion of tubes (valves) and solid state devices. I also picked up a copy of: AMSTRAD - Personal computer Word Processor - Users Guide-CP/M Logo & Word Processor Manual PCW8256/8512 This is the spiral bound owners manual for that computer. It's about 200 pages and in very good condition. Since I don't own an AMSTRAD, I'd be willing to part with it. I'll give it to the first person that asks for it for the cost of postage. Please don't ask unless you really need it 8^) I also got 3 other off topic books and spent a grand total of $1.85 Steve Robertson From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 4 19:56:36 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Reading old SCSI tapes Message-ID: <990304205636.202000db@trailing-edge.com> >>Somewhat on-topic question: can someone recommend a program, to run under >>MS-DOS (or maybe Windows) that is capable of reading a file (in the tape >>sense) from a SCSI tape drive. Not interpreting the file at all, just being >>able to copy it to disk. >What sort of tape drive? If it's supported under Linux, and it probably is, >then 'dd' would certainly do it. 'dd' will also throw away all the original blocking information on the tape. Many platforms and OS's will depend on finding tape marks and varying record lengths, and if you just 'dd' the tape all this information is lost. I've made a good amount of money over the years recovering RSX-11M BRU tapes where someone transferred the tape through a Unix system with 'dd' and lost all the blocking information. Most Unix-like OS's come with "tc" or a variation that will display tape blocking information; often folks take the output of "tc" and use this to create a script of "dd" commands that will handle the various block sizes on a particular tape. Under RSX-11M and VMS, I much prefer "TPC" format, which allows exact tape images to automatically be made with all the blocking information preserved. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Mar 4 20:00:53 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: SMALL SEALED BID AUCTION - Novation Cat Modem In-Reply-To: References: <199902191729.LAA00489@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.5.32.19990219110512.00cbd370@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Feb Message-ID: I'm doing a small sealed bid auction on the following: >Novation Cat Modem 490190-4 - Acoustically Coupled 300 Baud Modem - Original manual - Serial Cable - Power Supple - Packed in the original box. The box has some wear but no pieces of the cardboard are missing and all box photos look very nice. I think the fact that it comes in the original box etc makes it more collectible than the $5 units you can find at hamfests. >Condition: This is the original Novation Cat acoustically coupled 300 baud modem. Specs are 0-300 Baud, Bell 103 compatibility, RS232C interface, does Answer (NOT auto-answer) and Originate, etc etc. Should add a bit of Wargames flavor to that S100 system you've been restoring. I purchased it because the seller told me it was an Apple Cat. I've never tried it but there's not much that can go wrong with these units. Nonetheless, I cannot guarantee its condition. > >Auction Terms: This will be a sealed bid auction. Send your offers > to me at wirehead@retrocomputing.com. They will be recorded > and the highest bidder by Midnight March 8, 1999 will be sold > the item. Everyone, who bid, will receive an email at that time >telling > them the high bid but not to whom it was sold. Shipping will > be in addition to your bid and will be $7.50 in the continental > United States. The minimum bid on this item is $5.00. > >Payment Terms: The successful bidder will send a check or money order > for the winning bid amount plus $7.50 shipping to my address, > which the winner will be provided. If payment is in the form > of a money order, the item will be shipped immediately. If > payment is in the form of a check, shipping will be delayed > 3 days while the check clears. > Thanks. Again, I feel it's better to auction the stuff here than on Ebay since the items are more likely to find homes with genuine collectors and not "investors". Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 4 20:32:06 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff Message-ID: Hi, Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? We might donate a couple.... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Mar 4 20:53:06 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903050249.VAA08712@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:32:06 -0500 (EST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Max Eskin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Mac IIci stuff > Hi, > Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able > to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. > We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do > with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue > towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? > We might donate a couple.... > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > Is there a way to for the List to pick up these IIci's systems? They are second powerful machines to IIfx in Mac II family. And has L2 cache 32K (optional) and can do 128MB on board) Weight is not that bad either, appox 14lbs and case is IIcx form factor. Wizard From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Mar 4 20:51:38 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: SMALL SEALED BID AUCTION - Novation AppleCat Modems In-Reply-To: References: <199902191729.LAA00489@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: I'm doing a small sealed bid auction on the following: >Novation Cat II Modem 490402 - Direct Coupled 300 Baud Modem for Apple II series, also does 202 half duplex 1200 baud operation - Original manuals - Handset Connector but missing Phone Line Connector (easily fabricated) - Plugs into Apple II slot - Original Com-Ware software disk - Packed in the original box. The box has a fair amount of wear with worn corners but all cardboard is present and all pictures and text are readable and viewable. ALSO with this package: - 2 spare Apple Cat IIs, not in boxes, at least one of which has been tested as working around 5 years ago - Several spare copies of the manuals - Spare original copies of the disks that came with them - Various Handset and Phone Line connectors >Condition: This is the famous Apple Cat modem, able to dial 2600hz in a single bound, faster (with 202 half-duplex operation) than other modems of its time and capable of dialing all manner of fun tones, playing music over the phone line and even capable of emulating a human voice (with appropriate software available from Apple II archives). This unit is packed in the original box but has never been tested. The spare units were tested good 5 and 10 years ago respectively. I cannot guarantee their condition today but I would recommend you make a backup copy of the EPROMs and diskettes as soon as possible. > >Auction Terms: This will be a sealed bid auction. Send your offers > to me at wirehead@retrocomputing.com. They will be recorded > and the highest bidder by Midnight March 8, 1999 will be sold > the item. I do reserve the right not to sell this item at my >discretion. Everyone, who bids, will receive an email at that time >telling > them the high bid but not to whom it was sold. Shipping will > be in addition to your bid and will be $10.00 in the continental > United States. The minimum bid on this item is $25.00. > >Payment Terms: The successful bidder will send a check or money order > for the winning bid amount plus $10.00 shipping to my address, > which the winner will be provided. If payment is in the form > of a money order, the item will be shipped immediately. If > payment is in the form of a check, shipping will be delayed > 5 days while the check clears. > Thanks. Again, I feel it's better to auction the stuff here than on Ebay since the items are more likely to find homes with genuine collectors and not "investors". This is a rare opportunity to own not one but *3* pieces of computing and...uh...counter-culture computing history! Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 4 21:00:36 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: <199903050249.VAA08712@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: >Is there a way to for the List to pick up these IIci's systems? I'm not sure, I doubt it. I think that a formal donation would be better. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 4 21:15:24 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Reading old SCSI tapes In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304154351.00bf0100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990304171332.00fd6100@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990304211524.00fea370@vpwisfirewall> At 03:46 PM 3/4/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >Sigh, I've had this problem as well and not found a decent solution for it. >What Mark needs is a program that talks to the ASPI DLL to get access to >the SCSI bus directly. Sure it can be done under Linux or any other UNIX >like operating system on x86 hardware but when the tape drive is connected >to a PC running windows and there is no opportunity to install a different >OS, then this problem arises. I've got Adaptec ASPI for DOS, and it has an API, and I've got a few DOS programs that'll talk to it - freeware even. There's ASPI for Windows, and there's a few more freeware that'll talk to it. Some of them want the data to be 'tar', though. That's why I asked him what sort of drive he had. - John From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 4 23:38:40 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> IIc external power supply $10 > >More like $5 > >> IIc matching green monitor $12 >> IIc matching monitor stand $8 > >$8 just for the monitor stand? Both together should only fetch $10. > >> IIc LCD display $35 > >This is way out of touch. I've never seen a //c LCD display go on the net >for under $200 (this includes newsgroups and not ebay so this is not an >inflated price, not many of these were made). Of course if you're lucky >you'll find one in a thrift store for $3. > >> Manuals, original software, and assesssories $25 to $50 > >You mean a bundle right? $50 is pretty high for a bundle of software and >manuals and had better include a whole lot of stuff (like a trunkload). A >decent stack of manuals and software would only be half a grocery bag and >should be $10 - $15 at the most. First let me say there is no ONE price, thats a big reason eBay does so much traffic, prices vary greatly in different geographic regions. They vary just as much depending on buyer and seller too. I would no more pay $10 for a IIc power supply than I would be willing to sell one for $5, but I bought all that I have for less than $3, and sold all that I have sold for $9 (but I sell at bargain prices ;) Regarding stand and monitor, I am just noting what I see as a existing price structure. The people who export IIc's pay $20 for a IIc and power supply, and $40 when you include a monitor and stand. The stand seems harder to find than the monitor too. Regarding the LCD, next one I see I grab, but I bet a twenty does the trick. Regarding the "bundle", no I mean including the basic set of manuals and startup software, with maybe half a dozen more floppies which don't have to be originals. More and more it seems collectors are willing to pay a solid premium for completeness. Be reasonable, its a lot more work to get a complete set of anything together, and it means you don't sell the first items you accquire for maybe months while you hunt down the rest. Anyway, I am just noting what people seem willing to pay. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 4 23:45:43 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: <19990304183708.21885.rocketmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I recently picked up a //c+ (never seen one before), >monitor, stand, external Laser 5.25" drive, mouse, >two Imagewriter I's, manuals, no disks for $15 at >a Hamfest. > >I considered it a good deal. It was a good deal, maybe even very good if all works well. Did you get a manual specific to the IIc+? I am curious in what ways etc. it might differ from a plain IIc manual. I haven't found any software, that must exist, that is specific to the IIc+ (utilities etc.) either. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 5 00:39:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: Books I just bought In-Reply-To: <36DF3990.2AED24EE@hotoffice.com> References: Message-ID: I saw an interesting title in a stack of used books, and ended up buying a whole pile of them. I'm not sure what I will keep, so if interested email me. Programming & Interfacing the 6502, with Experiments. De Jong, Sams Programmers problem solver for the IBM PC, XT & AT. Jourdain. Brady XView Programming manual 7. O'Reilly & assoc. Starting Forth. Leo Brodie, Forth Inc. Prentice Hall The MicroSoft Visual Basic Workshop. John Clark Craig. MS press Microcomputer graphics and programming techniques. Katzan. VNR 80386 - A programming and design handbook. Brumm and Brumm. TPR iAPX 86/88, 186/188 Users Manual Programmers reference. Intel Reward books. Using Multimate. Kate Barnes. Que. Microcomputer Troubleshooting. Heathkit/Zenith educational systems. Thats it for now, I have more, but not the time to type. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 5 01:49:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Regarding stand and monitor, I am just noting what I see as a existing > price structure. The people who export IIc's pay $20 for a IIc and power > supply, and $40 when you include a monitor and stand. The stand seems > harder to find than the monitor too. Well then we should make the distinction that the prices you are quoting are what dealers will pay to re-sell to people in Japan. Domestic prices are far more reasonable. I bring up the point to avoid artificially inflating the price for otherwise common computer items. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 5 01:56:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:45 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Did you get a manual specific to the IIc+? I am curious in what ways etc. > it might differ from a plain IIc manual. I haven't found any software, that > must exist, that is specific to the IIc+ (utilities etc.) either. I have a //c+ manual. While I've never looked at it in depth, it basically doesn't differ much from the original //c manual. There never would have been any software specifically written for the //c+. It was functionally equivalent to the //c, and the //e for that matter. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 5 02:04:18 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Fullerton CA GSA finds Message-ID: I was roaming the local GSA surplus depot and have the following to report; Pallet lot of DEC manuals about 5 feet high, boxes and boxes of ringed binders, and a bunch of paperbacks still in shrinkwrap. labeled $60 System Industries tape drive, like a VAX used in a 5 foot high 4 foot deep very nice cabinet. label $100 Large box of tapes 600 to 6250 bpi, I didn't notice a price. Pallet of 11 items, including old printers, but also a Tandy 1000, and a commodore Amiga, and other stuff I didn't ID. label $250 The routine discount from labeled price is 60 to 70% off, but they want to get rid of these items, so be creative. GSA surplus depot is listed in the phonebook and has a web page. http://www.pd.dgs.ca.gov/materials/surfull.htm From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Mar 5 03:51:39 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 04.03.99 21:09:08, schreibt Dwight: << Hi If I was to build an electronic visual computer, I would use neon lights. All the logic functions can be done with these and the results are visual. NE2's can be bought in bulk for a few cents each. I built a relay combination lock once but I used relays and doides to cut down on the number of contacts needed. Dwight >> You need SOME amplifier element; just logic alone would not do. Neon lights for logic certainly would be possible, but neither convenient nor reliable in my mind, since the difference between ignition voltage and burning voltage is not that big. Diodes are MUCH more convenient AND a lot less expensive than Neon lights. John G. Zabolitzky From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Fri Mar 5 04:12:45 1999 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Reading old SCSI tapes Message-ID: >> What Mark needs is a program that talks to the ASPI DLL to get access to >> the SCSI bus directly. Sure it can be done under Linux or any other UNIX >> like operating system on x86 hardware but when the tape drive is connected >> to a PC running windows and there is no opportunity to install a different >> OS, then this problem arises. Hmm, well presumably a Linux bootdisk can be made that'll have dd on it as well as a SCSI-based kernel and MSDOS filesystem drivers, that way no OS needs to be installed and the tape data can be written to one of the PC's hard disks... of course, this assumes that dd is sufficient to read the tape (as somebody pointed out), and that the PC is using a FAT-based filesystem on its disks, not NTFS. cheers, Jules > From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Mar 5 06:51:23 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi, >Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able >to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. >We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do >with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue >towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? >We might donate a couple.... > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) Again the problem of the ocean divide. I'd love some IIci's for myself and for work. We got a couple of the blue towers recently, but still use quite a lot of IIci's for emailing. It would be great to get more of those out in the students' studios. It would take some weight of off the computers in here. Anyway, I'm blabbering on. If it is possible for you to send them to London, please do. Tell me what kind of an expense it would be. Thanks, Nasos. From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Mar 5 07:19:17 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: VMS 5.4 mans? Was: Re: Fullerton CA GSA finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990305080925.009ea860@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:04 AM 3/5/99 -0800, Mike Ford said something like: >I was roaming the local GSA surplus depot and have the following to report; > >Pallet lot of DEC manuals about 5 feet high, boxes and boxes of ringed >binders, and a bunch of paperbacks still in shrinkwrap. labeled $60 Hi Mike, any chance you think that there's VMS 5.4 manuals in that pallet? I'm trying to fill-in several missing manuals from my 5.4 "Grey Wall" of which I've advertised a WTB once or twice on ClassicCmp. Any of the California DEC crew planning on checking this DGS sale out more? Hmmm, paperbacks . . . Handbooks? > >System Industries tape drive, like a VAX used in a 5 foot high 4 foot deep >very nice cabinet. label $100 > >Large box of tapes 600 to 6250 bpi, I didn't notice a price. > >Pallet of 11 items, including old printers, but also a Tandy 1000, and a >commodore Amiga, and other stuff I didn't ID. label $250 > >The routine discount from labeled price is 60 to 70% off, but they want to >get rid of these items, so be creative. > >GSA surplus depot is listed in the phonebook and has a web page. >http://www.pd.dgs.ca.gov/materials/surfull.htm Unfortunately, this is a bit far away for me to go check myself :( Thanks, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From jax at tvec.net Fri Mar 5 07:31:49 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Uncle Emery's Funniest Computer Songs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990305073149.007a3100@pop.tvec.net> At 08:58 PM 03/04/1999 +0000, you wrote: >You know, I've never met a really good hacker (in the original and true >sense) who spend all his time in front of a computer. Most of them have >other interests, probably strange, maybe technical, maybe not... > >-tony > An observation with which I concur, I suspect that it relates to the "creative" side of the personality. Music is merely another way to create something that is unique. I think that being immersed in a particular technology limits you somewhat. The totally innovative ideas come from someone that doesn't know that it can't be done. jax@tvec.net From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Mar 5 08:43:51 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff References: Message-ID: <36DFEDA7.35970BE8@digiweb.com> Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > >Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able > >to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. > >We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do > >with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue > >towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? > >We might donate a couple.... I'd be interested in a hypercard manual. I just bought the software here in France with French manuals. Not a big deal, but it would be nice to have english versions also. Let me know what that would cost. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From elvey at hal.com Fri Mar 5 11:23:50 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903051723.JAA12655@civic.hal.com> Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > I > You need SOME amplifier element; just logic alone would not do. > Neon lights for logic certainly would be possible, but neither convenient nor > reliable in my mind, since the difference between ignition voltage and burning > voltage > is not that big. Diodes are MUCH more convenient AND a lot less expensive > than Neon lights. > John G. Zabolitzky Hi Neon lights are good enough. They can make amplifiers as well because of the negative resistance. Something like a tunnel diode does. Many have made logic systems with neon lights only, during the sixties. One of my class mates made a neon light adding machine so it can be done. I don't recall for sure but the difference between the run and the fire voltage of NE2's was something like 40V and 60V as I recall. I could be a little wrong on these numbers. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 5 12:02:36 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Reading old SCSI tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19990305180236.29093.qmail@brouhaha.com> > of course, this assumes that dd is sufficient to read the tape (as > somebody pointed out), If it's a variable record length tape, and you need to perserve that, you can use my program "tapecopy" to either copy it to a more modern tape media such as DDS 2 or Exabyte 8mm (just like tcopy), or to a tape image file in John Wilson's format. The source code for tapecopy is available at: http://www.36bit.org/dec/software/unix-util/ However, it is not in any way specific to DEC 36-bit computers. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 5 12:06:48 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: VMS 5.4 mans? Was: Re: Fullerton CA GSA finds In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990305080925.009ea860@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: >Upon the date 12:04 AM 3/5/99 -0800, Mike Ford said something like: >>I was roaming the local GSA surplus depot and have the following to report; >> >>Pallet lot of DEC manuals about 5 feet high, boxes and boxes of ringed >>binders, and a bunch of paperbacks still in shrinkwrap. labeled $60 > >Hi Mike, any chance you think that there's VMS 5.4 manuals in that pallet? Do they come in big 3" binders and fill up boxes? Keep in mind this pallet had maybe 25 boxes on it, but the ones I could peek into I think had a light tan color to the binders. Some I could tell were VAX, but 90% of the boxes I couldn't see into. BTW they won't let someone dig through the pallet. Its wrapped with the plastic sheeting and has to be sold as a single lot. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 5 13:33:46 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able >to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. >We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do >with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue >towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? >We might donate a couple.... If they need to be donated as opposed to sold, Goodwill often has a decent computer program. IIci is still a fine little machine though. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 5 13:34:12 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Did you get a manual specific to the IIc+? I am curious in what ways etc. >> it might differ from a plain IIc manual. I haven't found any software, that >> must exist, that is specific to the IIc+ (utilities etc.) either. > >I have a //c+ manual. While I've never looked at it in depth, it >basically doesn't differ much from the original //c manual. > >There never would have been any software specifically written for the >//c+. It was functionally equivalent to the //c, and the //e for that >matter. Except I think the IIc+ must have some additional something to changes modes; 40/80 column, cpu speeds, that sort of thing. It has a volume slider where the IIc has the 40/80 column switch. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 5 13:51:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IIc vs IIc+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >There never would have been any software specifically written for the > >//c+. It was functionally equivalent to the //c, and the //e for that > >matter. > > Except I think the IIc+ must have some additional something to changes > modes; 40/80 column, cpu speeds, that sort of thing. It has a volume slider > where the IIc has the 40/80 column switch. The 40/80 button on the //c was like a belly button. It looked cute but really didn't do anything useful. It was up to the software to read the state of that button (which was mapped to I believe one of the annunciator or TTL input addresses that are accessible on the ][, ][+ and //e I/O (internal joystick) port) and then switch accordingly to either 40 or 80 columns. I can't remember one program that actually did anything with this stupid button (I think I may have used one program at some point that reacted in realtime to this button; also I think ProDOS would boot into either 40 or 80 columns depending on the setting). An address to adjust the CPU speed would be the only new feature on a //c+, and that was most likely mapped to a previously unused address somewhere in the $C000 page memory map. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 5 12:48:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Mar 5, 99 04:51:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990305/72af70ac/attachment.ksh From amirault at epix.net Fri Mar 5 18:46:27 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK References: Message-ID: <36E07AE3.65BB775@epix.net> Hi All, I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still sealed. Can anyone use these disks? TIA, John Amirault From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 5 15:41:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It's large enough to make reliable flip-flops, n-state circuits, shift > registers, etc quite possible... True. It's problem is they are not consistant so yo have to design to a narrower Vi, Ve. They also age and that set of numbers changes. Neons are relitively slow devices. > But a neon will do a lot more than a diode (well, maybe a tunnel diode > will do some of the things a neon will do...). You can't make a flip-flop > with just diodes, for example. The use of both would be more practical as the diodes are desireable for steering and gating logic but for bistable elements the neon would do ok. Also a comment on older relay logic. When relays are used with relays the problem of contact bounce is not a problem as they are slow enough to NOT respond. You can also build a bistable using two simple relays rather than a hard to find latching relay. Switching speeds are easily in the several hundred hertz region though for combinational there will be propagation delay. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 5 16:12:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z3 builders? In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Mar 5, 99 04:41:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 897 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990305/dc484065/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Fri Mar 5 17:17:49 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: <36DFEDA7.35970BE8@digiweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Hans B Pufal wrote: >I'd be interested in a hypercard manual. I just bought the software here >in France with French manuals. Not a big deal, but it would be nice to >have english versions also. Let me know what that would cost. I have no idea what it costs to ship, I would expect you to be more of an expert. However, when I get more info, I will post to the list. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From donm at cts.com Fri Mar 5 17:54:12 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <36E07AE3.65BB775@epix.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. - don > Hi All, > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > TIA, > John Amirault > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu Fri Mar 5 18:13:15 1999 From: rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Transputer Books at Thrift & Used Book Stores Message-ID: <01BE673C.4B23F920.rmeena01@utopia.poly.edu> Hi, With the recent announcements of books found at the thrift shop & used book stores, I was wondering if any of you guys can keep an eye out for transputer books. I am currently looking for Helios Parallel Operating System. Thanks. Ram From william at ans.net Fri Mar 5 18:29:05 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903021808.KAA16169@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > I've been reading back issues of Micro Cornucopia... They have a lot of > glowing things to say about the TI 34010. Has anyone used one? They sound > very powerful and they fit my ideas about what graphics hardware should do. Until recently, I was using a 386-40 with TIGA for graphics. Running AutoCAD was pretty nice (it had a set of TIGA drivers), and Windows ran a bit faster than on VGA or SVGA. The card was a monster, and had a seperate section for doing base VGA (why - I dunno.). William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Mar 5 19:13:33 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I did, but transport is too expensive. I thought about building a controller, > and adding these boxes (about 2 cubic meters each) to a PC in opposite > movement to current > hard disk evolution. 3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for free is an easier option! William Donzelli william@ans.net From max82 at surfree.com Fri Mar 5 19:21:10 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: >3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for >free is an easier option! What's a 3380 like? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Mar 5 19:38:26 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990305203826.00920aa0@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Max Eskin had spoken clearly: >On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: >>3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for >>free is an easier option! > >What's a 3380 like? Big. ;-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Mar 5 19:35:27 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes Message-ID: <2ab3bfa6.36e0865f@aol.com> In a message dated 99-03-05 20:23:57 EST, you write: > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > >3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for > >free is an easier option! > > What's a 3380 like? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) pretty good size. think closet size. you could almost open the doors and get inside. impressive with belts and motors. certainly made lots of noise in the computer room i worked in 1992. I remember when they got rid of 4 strings of 3380 DASDs and replaced with one hitachi unit that had even more space. Technology improves so quick. From amirault at epix.net Fri Mar 5 23:32:11 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK References: Message-ID: <36E0BDDB.CFC01FCB@epix.net> Don, Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? John Amirault Don Maslin wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > - don > > > Hi All, > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > TIA, > > John Amirault > > > > donm@cts.com > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From erd at infinet.com Fri Mar 5 21:01:05 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 5, 99 11:33:46 am Message-ID: <199903060301.WAA03906@user2.infinet.com> Someone originally wrote: > >Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able > >to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. > >We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do > >with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue > >towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? > >We might donate a couple.... I'm looking for a cheap IIci to replace the one that broke while I was borrowing it from my brother. One time I turned it on and no chime, no Mac icon, happy or unhappy, but the video appears to be squirting at least sync out. It could be a donation, except that I haven't completed the paperwork to incorporate my museum yet :-( I'm stuck on a name. Most of the good names have been taken and I've always been bad at names. Any suggestions for a non-profit museum name for a group that focuses on DEC equipment (PDP-8 through VAX), 70's micros (6502, etc.) and 68000 machines (Amiga, older Mac, oddball machines like the Perkin-Elmer UNIX workstation, etc.)? (As a side note, I'm poorly equipped in the older Intel and Zilog department - the only working Z-80 machine I have is a full-sized Gorf arcade game). Back to the subject: I'm interested in a bare IIci if the price is right. Thanks. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 5 21:06:55 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:29:05 -0500 References: Message-ID: <19990306030655.31882.qmail@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > The card was a monster, and had a seperate > section for doing base VGA (why - I dunno.). Because the 34010 is not VGA compatible. And people tend not to want to buy cards that aren't. From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 5 21:28:56 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Live Auction Stuff References: Message-ID: <36E0A0F8.4AE563A9@rain.org> Here is a partial list of things that are going to be offered at an auction next Tuesday at Vandenburg AFB. I plan on going up with a friend Monday to inspect the stuff and see if there is anything worthwhile. Anything here anyone might be interested in worth trying to get? 3 Modems, Wang 2285V-C and V5-CC 2 Modems, Codex, Model 2510 1 Disk Drive, Wang 9914R 1 Controller, Wang 1 Terminal Multiplexer, IBM 3299-2 5 IBM Mag Tape Units, 3460-8 3 bx Cables & Cords 1 Tape Control Unit, IBM 38032 1 IBM Processor, Model 9309 2 Power System, Modular, Burroughs 4 Disk Drives, Xerox, Model T22-B000FS 2 Disk Drives, Xerox models 3MC & E91 1 IBM Computer Model 80 1 Disk Drive HP Model 35401 1 Disk Drive Sony CDU 6250 1 Computer, Zenith ZWX248-62 1 Micro Hub, Digital 1 Computer,. Xerox 860IPS 1 Tape Drive, HP 7974 6 Tektronix Terminals, 4027 1 HP Monitor, HP98753A 1 HP Computer HP9000 1 Computer Digital Decastation 5000 5 Drive, Storage Module 9766 2 Drive, Storage Module 9760 From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 5 21:36:01 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z-80 Arcade Games References: <199903060301.WAA03906@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <36E0A2A1.A68AFA17@rain.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > workstation, etc.)? (As a side note, I'm poorly equipped in the older Intel > and Zilog department - the only working Z-80 machine I have is a full-sized > Gorf arcade game). We are probably a ways apart, but I have a Clay Champ that uses a Z-80 you can have for the cost of shipping. Someone decided to put 110VAC to the logic board ... and it complained :). IIRC, the parts are all standard TTL except for the EPROM, and there is a "new" replacement EPROM with the unit. Even should be a manual & Schematics! Sold/traded off Destruction Derby a few weeks ago, Cheyenne is about to bite the dust (I am trading off the board set and wiring for some neat old computer stuff), and Space Zap is about to go on the market. I think I have a buyer for a Star Trek conversion, and Pacific Novelties Thief is getting close to the last game I am getting rid of. From erd at infinet.com Fri Mar 5 21:39:23 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z-80 Arcade Games In-Reply-To: <36E0A2A1.A68AFA17@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Mar 5, 99 07:36:01 pm Message-ID: <199903060339.WAA04232@user2.infinet.com> > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > workstation, etc.)? (As a side note, I'm poorly equipped in the older > > Intel and Zilog department - the only working Z-80 machine I have is a > > full-sized Gorf arcade game). > > We are probably a ways apart... I'm in Ohio. > but I have a Clay Champ that uses a Z-80 you can have for the cost of > shipping. How large? From where? What is it? (I don't recognize the name) > Someone decided to put 110VAC to the logic board ... and it complained :). Ow! That's gotta hurt. > IIRC, the parts are all standard TTL... Were any of the numbers burned off? > except for the EPROM, and there is a "new" replacement EPROM with the unit. > Even should be a manual & Schematics! That's makes a difference. Once I have a ballpark of cost, I might say yes. -ethan From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Mar 5 21:53:39 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <19990306030655.31882.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 6, 99 03:06:55 am Message-ID: <199903060353.TAA25561@saul6.u.washington.edu> Eric Smith wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > > The card was a monster, and had a seperate > > section for doing base VGA (why - I dunno.). > Because the 34010 is not VGA compatible. And people tend not to want to > buy cards that aren't. Exactly why isn't it VGA-compatible? I thought that certain things are true of the 34010: - flexible memory architecture - many operations done in software (not hardware) - some hardware (video RAM, shift registers and other parts to actually produce a monitor signal) external to the 34010 It's certainly possible to emulate the Hercules, CGA, and MDA. Is there some lack of configuration registers, or some internal timing constraint, that makes emuilating the VGA impossible? -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 5 22:18:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903060353.TAA25561@saul6.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:53:39 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903060353.TAA25561@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990306041852.32069.qmail@brouhaha.com> Derek wrote: > Exactly why isn't it VGA-compatible? The 34010 isn't even *similar* to a VGA. The exact extent of the compatability is that both hook up to a host processor, and both produce a video output. > I thought that certain things are true of the 34010: > - flexible memory architecture If a large flat address space is a "flexible memory architecture", then the 34010 certainly has it. However, that isn't what VGA uses. VGA has all sorts of crufty bank switching and other disgusting hacks. > - many operations done in software (not hardware) Actually most of the interesting operations of the 34010 are done in microcode. But those operations aren't similar to VGA. > - some hardware (video RAM, shift registers and other parts to > actually produce a monitor signal) external to the 34010 Yes. > It's certainly possible to emulate the Hercules, CGA, and MDA. Is there > some lack of configuration registers, or some internal timing constraint, > that makes emuilating the VGA impossible? The 34010 doesn't have any built-in support for emulating any of those things. Sure, you could do it by adding a big pile of external logic (which you could put into an ASIC, or some PLDs). Due to communication overhead, it would be a fair bit slower to emulate a VGA with a 34010. It's cheaper and easier to just put a VGA controller on the card, since that does exactly what you need in a single inexpensive chip. Leave the 34010 to doing what it does well. For example, acting as a display list processor for AutoCAD. The VGA interface is too low-level and baroque to be efficiently emulated in software. Eric From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 5 22:32:13 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Z-80 Arcade Games References: <199903060339.WAA04232@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <36E0AFCD.28CEE107@rain.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > > workstation, etc.)? (As a side note, I'm poorly equipped in the older > > > Intel and Zilog department - the only working Z-80 machine I have is a > > > full-sized Gorf arcade game). > > > > We are probably a ways apart... > > I'm in Ohio. > I'm in Santa Barbara, CA. The game is a two gun game where the object is a skeet shoot. A photosensor in the gun detects the bright skeet when the trigger is pulled. There is someone on RGVAC that delivers games (so I am told) at a very reasonable price although it may take a while for him to get it picked up and delivered. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Mar 5 22:58:42 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <19990306041852.32069.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 6, 99 04:18:52 am Message-ID: <199903060458.UAA31764@saul6.u.washington.edu> Eric Smith wrote: > Derek wrote: > > Exactly why isn't it VGA-compatible? > > The 34010 isn't even *similar* to a VGA. The exact extent of the > compatability is that both hook up to a host processor, and both produce > a video output. > > > I thought that certain things are true of the 34010: > > - flexible memory architecture > > If a large flat address space is a "flexible memory architecture", > then the 34010 certainly has it. However, that isn't what VGA uses. VGA > has all sorts of crufty bank switching and other disgusting hacks. I should have used a different phrase. Isn't it possible to have the 34010 interpret the data in (data) memory in various ways, based on the code you put in (code) memory? That's what I meant by "flexible". > > - many operations done in software (not hardware) > > Actually most of the interesting operations of the 34010 are done in > microcode. But those operations aren't similar to VGA. Again, I was thinking of the reconfigurability of the 34010. > > It's certainly possible to emulate the Hercules, CGA, and MDA. Is there > > some lack of configuration registers, or some internal timing constraint, > > that makes emuilating the VGA impossible? > > The 34010 doesn't have any built-in support for emulating any of those things. > Sure, you could do it by adding a big pile of external logic (which you could > put into an ASIC, or some PLDs). Due to communication overhead, it would > be a fair bit slower to emulate a VGA with a 34010. Ah. Well, there goes my idea of havng an "uber-graphics board" that does everything... As for emulating the older cards, I have a _Micro Cornucopia_ issue which describes a board that promises exactly that. There's some external logic, but I doubt there are any ASICs. > It's cheaper and easier to just put a VGA controller on the card, since that > does exactly what you need in a single inexpensive chip. Leave the 34010 > to doing what it does well. For example, acting as a display list processor > for AutoCAD. The VGA interface is too low-level and baroque to be > efficiently emulated in software. Hmph. I should have guessed. You might have already figured out that I'm always thinking of the design of my Perfect Computer (tm). The problem is: The IBM PC has software, the Perfect Computer doesn't. I'd either have to write all the software myself, port it from the IBM -- but the point was to *avoid* all the cruftiness of the IBM -- or write a PC emulator. Ick. Of course I could get the software from somewhere else. Also, I fear that any design I could come up with will never be as fast as any current PowerPC or Intel systems. Those hacks do serve a purpose! Unfortunately, PC software is successful *in spite of* the nature of the PC, not *because* of it. :( What are the chances of successfully emulating EGA? -- Derek From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 5 23:16:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? Message-ID: <4.1.19990305210717.00a25d40@mcmanis.com> Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? --Chuck From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 5 23:09:07 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Mac IIci stuff In-Reply-To: <199903060301.WAA03906@user2.infinet.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 5, 99 11:33:46 am Message-ID: >Someone originally wrote: >> >Is there any demand for Mac IIci manuals and system disks? I may be able >> >to spread a few around. Also, hypercard manuals. Some still shrinkwrapped. >> >We have a pile of complete IIci systems that we don't know what to do >> >with, since they've been recently replaced by Quadras and translucent blue >> >towers. Any place that could make use of them and _not throw them away_? >> >We might donate a couple.... > >I'm looking for a cheap IIci to replace the one that broke while I was >borrowing it from my brother. One time I turned it on and no chime, >no Mac icon, happy or unhappy, but the video appears to be squirting >at least sync out. Check your lithium battery voltage, and email me in the morning. (4 of them at an auction I am going to ;) From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Mar 5 23:39:45 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? Message-ID: <002601be6793$bdf424a0$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I need these too. >Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? >--Chuck > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 5 23:56:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? Message-ID: <19990306055804382.AAA203@fuj03> I've got one though it's not been used for a while. bear with me and I'll get you a list of jumpers. There are quite a few, though. Dick ---------- > From: Chuck McManis > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? > Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:16 PM > > Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? > --Chuck > From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 6 00:46:54 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990305210717.00a25d40@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? > --Chuck I have it, Chuck, but the problem is that some of it varies with the PCB part number. Is there any area in particular that you are looking for, or can you provide the PCB p/n? - don From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 6 00:59:34 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <36E0BDDB.CFC01FCB@epix.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? Yes, I probably can, John, unless someone else has a more urgent requirement. Once in a while I get a request for a system disk for one of those machines. The PCW is a Z-80 based machine by Amstrad of the UK that started out as a word processor. They were initially sold in the US by Sears IIRC. Fairly early on, someone took note that with a CP/M system disk it was a pretty fair microcomputer. The two models that I am familiar with are the PCW-8256 and the 8512. The last three digits of the model number are a reflection of the amount of memory installed when built. (Actually, upgrading an 8256 to be an 8512 is a matter of installing a bank of RAM and moving a jumper so it is recognized. They had some frailties such as a serial port being an optional - and pricey - extra, and a Centronix looking printer port that is not Centronix. But running CP/M-3.0, they are not a bad machine. - don > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > > - don > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > > > TIA, > > > John Amirault > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Mar 6 01:43:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990305210717.00a25d40@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990305232710.00b075f0@mcmanis.com> Yes there are quite a few, I'm not sure where the PCB part number is so I'll give you various things and you can tell me if I got one you can use :-) The MAXTOR chip is marked 'B73ED', There is a covered chip marked 9211 and R140. There are 39 Jumpers on this drive, Mine are set as follows: Jumper State JP1 on JP20 on JP2 off JP21 off JP3 off JP22 on JP4 on JP23 off JP5 on JP24 off JP6 on JP25 on JP7 on JP26 off JP8 on JP27 off JP9 on JP28 off JP10 off JP29 off JP11 off JP30 off JP12 on JP31 off JP13 off JP32 on JP14 ?? JP33 off JP15 on JP34 off JP16 off JP35 on JP17 off JP36 off JP19 off JP37 on (between JP2 and JP3) JP38 on JP39 off On the JDS1-7 pins I've got a jumper on JDS1 (presumably this selects it as drive 1) No other identifying marks as far as I can see... Any help appreciated. --Chuck At 10:46 PM 3/5/99 -0800, Don Maslin wrote: >On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? >> --Chuck > >I have it, Chuck, but the problem is that some of it varies with the >PCB part number. Is there any area in particular that you are looking >for, or can you provide the PCB p/n? > - don > > From Jgzabol at aol.com Sat Mar 6 02:40:33 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes Message-ID: <40bd3d8.36e0ea01@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 06.03.99 02:23:57 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: >3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for >free is an easier option! What's a 3380 like? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) >> A 3380 or 3390 is about 3 x 4 x 6 foot, 1000 pounds, and from few hundred MByte to 10 GByte or so. Just a nice contrast to today's 10 GByte disk drives !! Thanks for the junkyard advice, I have so far spent much too little time on that angle here in Germany ! John G. Zabolitzky From Jgzabol at aol.com Sat Mar 6 02:55:40 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <34fb2c33.36e0ed8c@aol.com> The TI 34020 is the (principally similar) successor to the 34010, and I have designed in my company our basic bread-and-butter product of that time around that some 7 years ago. This is machine vision, i.e. digital image processing. I do not think it is advisable to emulate anything. If you want to build the Perfect Computer (tm) I would suggest to use Linux as operating system, and write your own driver for whatever display hardware you see fit. The TI 340x0 family is best viewed as a totally general microprocessor, which happens to have a few special gadgets for image / graphics processing. There is nothing you could not do in principle by using any other microprocessor, but some things - in particular drawing graphics - will just be significantly faster on the TI 340x0. The basic thing to know is that in those days people were most concerned about putting graphics display lists on the screen, that is you have a list of triangles, lines, circles, and whatnot, and the hardware primitives (really microcode of course) on the TI 340x0 allow you to do that pretty efficiently. That in other word means, that _ON_ _THE_ _APPLICATION_ _LEVEL_ you must be prepared to hand DISPLAY LISTS over to the graphcis processor; in those times, that was done by people like AutoCad, e.g. John G. Zabolitzky From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Mar 6 03:23:49 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <34fb2c33.36e0ed8c@aol.com> from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Mar 6, 99 03:55:40 am Message-ID: <199903060923.BAA15200@saul3.u.washington.edu> > The TI 34020 is the (principally similar) successor to the 34010, and I have > designed in my company our basic bread-and-butter product of that time > around that some 7 years ago. This is machine vision, i.e. digital image > processing. I've read (I forget where -- maybe Micro Cornucopia) that the 34020 is basically the same as the 34010, except that it works with larger amounts of data at the same time. Were there any instruction-set changes? > I do not think it is advisable to emulate anything. If you want to build the > Perfect Computer (tm) I would suggest to use Linux as operating system, and > write your own driver for whatever display hardware you see fit. :) Well, the number of games on the PC is a very seductive thing. I think Linux is very good overall. I plan on installing it on my Macintosh as soon as the quarter (school) is over. But there are some other interesting OSs too, and many of them are even relevant to the list. I've heard good things about RSX-11M, RT-11, the various TRS-80 OSs, FLEX, OS-9, SK*DOS, and others. There was also a competitor to CP/M which has been praised (possibly by Allison) because it provided some important services that CP/M didn't. Unfortunately I forget if it was by Northstar, Cromenco, or Ohio Scientific. Admittedly, many of those are simpler than UNIX. But a few are real-time, which UNIX is not. Besides, almost any design is interesting in some way. I also have visions of putting together a Transputer-based system and somehow creating vast amounts of computer power out of thin air. :) From my reading, it seems there are two main drawbacks: 1) Generally, the Transputer depends on a host. 2) Parallel processors are very powerful but they won't solve every problem equally well, and they present some very subtle and nasty traps to the student or programmer. Maybe it's time for Tony to come back into this thread, since he seems to be the Transputer expert. > faster on the TI 340x0. The basic thing to know is that in those days people > were most concerned about putting graphics display lists on the screen, > that is you have a list of triangles, lines, circles, and whatnot, and the > hardware primitives (really microcode of course) on the TI 340x0 allow you > to do that pretty efficiently. I understand display lists pretty well. Many vector-graphics machines used them; Sketchpad relied on them and Evans & Sutherland continued the trend. (I'd love to play with some of their machines!) Also the Atari 8-bit machines had a limited form, and you could say the Amiga has them as well. This kind of dipslay list relates to memory layout and interpretation, rather than defining objects in memory. But it still makes certain tasks absurdly easy, instead of very time-consuming. > That in other word means, that _ON_ _THE_ _APPLICATION_ _LEVEL_ > you must be prepared to hand DISPLAY LISTS over to the graphcis processor; > in those times, that was done by people like AutoCad, e.g. How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? -- Derek From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Mar 6 04:53:49 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? Message-ID: <001e01be67bf$9dfd7300$e33bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> The PCB part no on mine is 1014520F >On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? >> --Chuck > >I have it, Chuck, but the problem is that some of it varies with the >PCB part number. Is there any area in particular that you are looking >for, or can you provide the PCB p/n? > - don > > From at258 at osfn.org Sat Mar 6 07:29:16 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Don, we were given two of the 8256's in a rcent donation. I've seen them running, and they are a nice CP/M machine, except for the flaky drives. I was particularly impressed with the the Locasoft Word Processor, but then, I like word processors. Still looking for Lexitron software.... On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? > > Yes, I probably can, John, unless someone else has a more urgent > requirement. Once in a while I get a request for a system disk for > one of those machines. > > The PCW is a Z-80 based machine by Amstrad of the UK that started out > as a word processor. They were initially sold in the US by Sears IIRC. > Fairly early on, someone took note that with a CP/M system disk it was > a pretty fair microcomputer. The two models that I am familiar with are > the PCW-8256 and the 8512. The last three digits of the model number are > a reflection of the amount of memory installed when built. (Actually, > upgrading an 8256 to be an 8512 is a matter of installing a bank of RAM > and moving a jumper so it is recognized. > > They had some frailties such as a serial port being an optional - and > pricey - extra, and a Centronix looking printer port that is not > Centronix. But running CP/M-3.0, they are not a bad machine. > > - don > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > > > - don > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > John Amirault > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > donm@cts.com > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From gene at ehrich.com Sat Mar 6 08:00:26 1999 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: IBM mainframes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990306090005.00996420@popmail.voicenet.com> At 08:21 PM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: >>3380s are hitting the junkyards in record numbers now, so getting one for >>free is an easier option! > >What's a 3380 like? Lot's of data. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale Gene Ehrich PO Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Mar 6 08:27:57 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? References: <4.1.19990305210717.00a25d40@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <36E13B6D.2BFFE22@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? Jerome Fine replies: Has anyone tried to look at the Maxtor web site? I just tried the search at the primary site for XT8760E and immediately arrived at: http://www.maxtor.com/library/esdi.html Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Sat Mar 6 09:22:06 1999 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:46 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? Message-ID: <19990306091024.9adea6fbba0b11d2be700000e80dc880.in@insidermarketing.com> Having just returned from another depressing First Saturday trip - loads of PC clones and scanners, one nut selling a core memory board for $1000 - and oh yes, a Timex 1500 I bought for $3, I find myself wondering what possible post-Windows3-era stuff can be/will be possibly considered collectible some day. It occurs to me that one candidate would be the first batch of digital cameras. So made the first consumer-level digital camera? Kodak had a hi-end modified Nikon about 7 years ago, but I'm thinking the Apple QuickTake 100 is the earliest digital camera I can think of. And are there other categories of products that might become future collectibles? --Larry From amirault at epix.net Sat Mar 6 12:50:05 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK References: Message-ID: <36E178DD.A58A879F@epix.net> Hi, I have had two people respond to my inquiry on the CF-2 floppy disks. These people are Sellam Ismail and Don Maslin. I have decided I want to keep one blank disk for display, as I have never seen disks like these before. This leaves five disks that are blank and one disk with CP/M Programming Utilities on one side and Dr. Logo & Help on the other side. Don and Sellam, I leave it between you two to discuss who gets what. I will abide by your decision on this. I do think that the disk with Dr. logo on it is worth more than the blank ones at fifty cents each plus actual shipping, though I do not know what it should be. John Amirault Don Maslin wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? > > Yes, I probably can, John, unless someone else has a more urgent > requirement. Once in a while I get a request for a system disk for > one of those machines. > > The PCW is a Z-80 based machine by Amstrad of the UK that started out > as a word processor. They were initially sold in the US by Sears IIRC. > Fairly early on, someone took note that with a CP/M system disk it was > a pretty fair microcomputer. The two models that I am familiar with are > the PCW-8256 and the 8512. The last three digits of the model number are > a reflection of the amount of memory installed when built. (Actually, > upgrading an 8256 to be an 8512 is a matter of installing a bank of RAM > and moving a jumper so it is recognized. > > They had some frailties such as a serial port being an optional - and > pricey - extra, and a Centronix looking printer port that is not > Centronix. But running CP/M-3.0, they are not a bad machine. > > - don > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > > > - don > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > John Amirault > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > donm@cts.com > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From at258 at osfn.org Sat Mar 6 09:52:19 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <36E178DD.A58A879F@epix.net> Message-ID: Just an observation, but I think Elliam Associates sells new CF-2's. On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > Hi, > > I have had two people respond to my inquiry on the CF-2 floppy disks. > These people are Sellam Ismail and Don Maslin. I have decided I want to > keep one blank disk for display, as I have never seen disks like these > before. This leaves five disks that are blank and one disk with CP/M > Programming Utilities on one side and Dr. Logo & Help on the other > side. Don and Sellam, I leave it between you two to discuss who gets > what. I will abide by your decision on this. I do think that the disk > with Dr. logo on it is worth more than the blank ones at fifty cents > each plus actual shipping, though I do not know what it should be. > > John Amirault > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? > > > > Yes, I probably can, John, unless someone else has a more urgent > > requirement. Once in a while I get a request for a system disk for > > one of those machines. > > > > The PCW is a Z-80 based machine by Amstrad of the UK that started out > > as a word processor. They were initially sold in the US by Sears IIRC. > > Fairly early on, someone took note that with a CP/M system disk it was > > a pretty fair microcomputer. The two models that I am familiar with are > > the PCW-8256 and the 8512. The last three digits of the model number are > > a reflection of the amount of memory installed when built. (Actually, > > upgrading an 8256 to be an 8512 is a matter of installing a bank of RAM > > and moving a jumper so it is recognized. > > > > They had some frailties such as a serial port being an optional - and > > pricey - extra, and a Centronix looking printer port that is not > > Centronix. But running CP/M-3.0, they are not a bad machine. > > > > - don > > > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > > > > - don > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > > > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > > > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > > > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > > > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > > > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > > > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > > > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > > John Amirault > > > > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From manney at hmcltd.net Sat Mar 6 09:58:01 1999 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? Message-ID: <199903061556.HAA31871@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > And are there other categories of products that might become future > collectibles? First mouse? Oddball mice? First hard drive? Seminal software, of course. From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 6 11:15:01 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Other early collectables, was Re: collectible digital cameras? References: <19990306091024.9adea6fbba0b11d2be700000e80dc880.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: <36E16295.7561DC8C@rain.org> Larry Groebe wrote: > > And are there other categories of products that might become future > collectibles? One thing it took me quite a while to find was one of the (I think) original Microsoft mice that used a male plug on the mouse and a female DB-9 on the card. And along that lines, probably Windows 1.03, Windows 286, Windows 386, and probably Windows 3.0 (though perhaps quite a ways in the future.) I would expect the first CD-ROM drives to be collectable, early MO drives, accelerator cards, the early Sound Blaster, Microsoft Sound System, the early WORM drives, perhaps the HP Laserjet (128K memory), the first IDE drives, and of course the documentation. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 11:11:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903060923.BAA15200@saul3.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 6, 99 01:23:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/7d622438/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 10:52:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903060353.TAA25561@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 5, 99 07:53:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/ed605a9f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 11:01:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Mar 5, 99 10:59:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/fa913105/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Mar 6 11:48:14 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Jumpers for Maxtor XT-8760 ESDI disk? In-Reply-To: <36E13B6D.2BFFE22@idirect.com> References: <4.1.19990305210717.00a25d40@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990306094711.00a2ceb0@mcmanis.com> Did that first, but not luck. The closest I came was an old SunSpots archive that claimed the jumpers were "n/a" :-) --Chuck At 09:27 AM 3/6/99 -0500, Jerome Fine wrote: >>Chuck McManis wrote: > >> Does anyone have the jumper configuration for this drive? > >Jerome Fine replies: > >Has anyone tried to look at the Maxtor web site? I just >tried the search at the primary site for XT8760E and >immediately arrived at: > >http://www.maxtor.com/library/esdi.html > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict > From amirault at epix.net Sat Mar 6 12:43:53 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK References: Message-ID: <36E17769.2D9A79CB@epix.net> Merle, How much does Elliam Associates sell the CF-2's for? John Amirault Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Just an observation, but I think Elliam Associates sells new CF-2's. > > On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have had two people respond to my inquiry on the CF-2 floppy disks. > > These people are Sellam Ismail and Don Maslin. I have decided I want to > > keep one blank disk for display, as I have never seen disks like these > > before. This leaves five disks that are blank and one disk with CP/M > > Programming Utilities on one side and Dr. Logo & Help on the other > > side. Don and Sellam, I leave it between you two to discuss who gets > > what. I will abide by your decision on this. I do think that the disk > > with Dr. logo on it is worth more than the blank ones at fifty cents > > each plus actual shipping, though I do not know what it should be. > > > > John Amirault > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > > Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? > > > > > > Yes, I probably can, John, unless someone else has a more urgent > > > requirement. Once in a while I get a request for a system disk for > > > one of those machines. > > > > > > The PCW is a Z-80 based machine by Amstrad of the UK that started out > > > as a word processor. They were initially sold in the US by Sears IIRC. > > > Fairly early on, someone took note that with a CP/M system disk it was > > > a pretty fair microcomputer. The two models that I am familiar with are > > > the PCW-8256 and the 8512. The last three digits of the model number are > > > a reflection of the amount of memory installed when built. (Actually, > > > upgrading an 8256 to be an 8512 is a matter of installing a bank of RAM > > > and moving a jumper so it is recognized. > > > > > > They had some frailties such as a serial port being an optional - and > > > pricey - extra, and a Centronix looking printer port that is not > > > Centronix. But running CP/M-3.0, they are not a bad machine. > > > > > > - don > > > > > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > > > > > - don > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > > > > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > > > > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > > > > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > > > > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > > > > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > > > > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > > > > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > > > John Amirault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From Jgzabol at aol.com Sat Mar 6 13:07:32 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 06.03.99 10:25:15 MEZ, schreibt Derek: << > The TI 34020 is the (principally similar) successor to the 34010, and I have > designed in my company our basic bread-and-butter product of that time > around that some 7 years ago. This is machine vision, i.e. digital image > processing. I've read (I forget where -- maybe Micro Cornucopia) that the 34020 is basically the same as the 34010, except that it works with larger amounts of data at the same time. Were there any instruction-set changes? I really cannot tell, I do not recall the 34010 and do not hace any docs about it, though I do have everything about 34020. > I do not think it is advisable to emulate anything. If you want to build the > Perfect Computer (tm) I would suggest to use Linux as operating system, and > write your own driver for whatever display hardware you see fit. :) Well, the number of games on the PC is a very seductive thing. Then, 340x0 will not help you at all. I think Linux is very good overall. I plan on installing it on my Macintosh as soon as the quarter (school) is over. But there are some other interesting OSs too, and many of them are even relevant to the list. I've heard good things about RSX-11M, RT-11, the various TRS-80 OSs, FLEX, OS-9, SK*DOS, and others. There was also a competitor to CP/M which has been praised (possibly by Allison) because it provided some important services that CP/M didn't. Unfortunately I forget if it was by Northstar, Cromenco, or Ohio Scientific. Admittedly, many of those are simpler than UNIX. But a few are real-time, which UNIX is not. Besides, almost any design is interesting in some way. I also have visions of putting together a Transputer-based system and somehow creating vast amounts of computer power out of thin air. :) From my reading, it seems there are two main drawbacks: 1) Generally, the Transputer depends on a host. 2) Parallel processors are very powerful but they won't solve every problem equally well, and they present some very subtle and nasty traps to the student or programmer. Maybe it's time for Tony to come back into this thread, since he seems to be the Transputer expert. I have done quite some work on parallel systems; the efficiency and ease of programming depends _TRMENDOUSLY_ on the problem you are looking at; some (like Monte-Carlo simulation) just fit perfectly well, others (like running canned software) not at all. Of course, it will be mandatory for high-performance computing in the future, in fact is already today, to go parallel; in all cases I know at tremendous work on the algorithm level parallelization. My personal preference is in shared-memory parallel processing; the transputers are message-passing parallelism, which I personally do not find very useful. But that depends of course on the problems and algorithms I am interested in. > faster on the TI 340x0. The basic thing to know is that in those days people > were most concerned about putting graphics display lists on the screen, > that is you have a list of triangles, lines, circles, and whatnot, and the > hardware primitives (really microcode of course) on the TI 340x0 allow you > to do that pretty efficiently. I understand display lists pretty well. Many vector-graphics machines used them; Sketchpad relied on them and Evans & Sutherland continued the trend. (I'd love to play with some of their machines!) Also the Atari 8-bit machines had a limited form, and you could say the Amiga has them as well. This kind of dipslay list relates to memory layout and interpretation, rather than defining objects in memory. But it still makes certain tasks absurdly easy, instead of very time-consuming. > That in other word means, that _ON_ _THE_ _APPLICATION_ _LEVEL_ > you must be prepared to hand DISPLAY LISTS over to the graphcis processor; > in those times, that was done by people like AutoCad, e.g. How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? The 34020 (and I believe the 34010 had that as well) deals with that through special bit-blit operations, bit-block-transfer and simultaneous logical/masking operations. This is much supported by VRAM hardware used at that time; the VRAM chips have bitblt features built in. The performance was exactly equal to the VRAM theoretical max throughput, i.e. the TI processor made the best possible use of available memory technology. -- Derek >> John. From max82 at surfree.com Sat Mar 6 13:26:50 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Computer education Message-ID: Hi folks, Today was the first day of my free networking course at school, at the end of which I will have received a certificate 'n stuff...anyway, the guy was trying to explain layered protocol stacks, and data abstraction. It occured to me that the concepts have no meaning outside the realm of developing the protocols or applications that use these protocols. And it's almost impossible to explain without referring to these realms. The guy was telling us how 'everything in the computer is in binary' but you need additional network layers 'because Word can't understand the binary and needs it to be translated'. At this time, I was thinking about my recent experiences with the PDP-8. I wonder, wouldn't it make everything so much easier if every computer in schools had a PDP-8 emulator on it, and students had to learn to make simple programs in PAL before learning concepts like the OSI 7-layer model, etc? Because, it was obvious that the guy was being forced to avoid saying the word 'function' or 'subroutine' since people didn't know what it meant.... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 6 14:36:06 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK References: <36E17769.2D9A79CB@epix.net> Message-ID: <36E191B6.5B27645C@rain.org> John Amirault wrote: > > Merle, > > How much does Elliam Associates sell the CF-2's for? Is Elliam Associates still around? I remember trying to call them for VCF 1.0 and the phone never answered. From at258 at osfn.org Sat Mar 6 14:40:11 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <36E17769.2D9A79CB@epix.net> Message-ID: I don't know, I just remember talking to the fellow there, who is an old computer buff and he handles all the Amstrad stuff. On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > Merle, > > How much does Elliam Associates sell the CF-2's for? > > John Amirault > > Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > Just an observation, but I think Elliam Associates sells new CF-2's. > > > > On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have had two people respond to my inquiry on the CF-2 floppy disks. > > > These people are Sellam Ismail and Don Maslin. I have decided I want to > > > keep one blank disk for display, as I have never seen disks like these > > > before. This leaves five disks that are blank and one disk with CP/M > > > Programming Utilities on one side and Dr. Logo & Help on the other > > > side. Don and Sellam, I leave it between you two to discuss who gets > > > what. I will abide by your decision on this. I do think that the disk > > > with Dr. logo on it is worth more than the blank ones at fifty cents > > > each plus actual shipping, though I do not know what it should be. > > > > > > John Amirault > > > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > > > > Can you use the disks? Just what is Amstrad "PCW" ? > > > > > > > > Yes, I probably can, John, unless someone else has a more urgent > > > > requirement. Once in a while I get a request for a system disk for > > > > one of those machines. > > > > > > > > The PCW is a Z-80 based machine by Amstrad of the UK that started out > > > > as a word processor. They were initially sold in the US by Sears IIRC. > > > > Fairly early on, someone took note that with a CP/M system disk it was > > > > a pretty fair microcomputer. The two models that I am familiar with are > > > > the PCW-8256 and the 8512. The last three digits of the model number are > > > > a reflection of the amount of memory installed when built. (Actually, > > > > upgrading an 8256 to be an 8512 is a matter of installing a bank of RAM > > > > and moving a jumper so it is recognized. > > > > > > > > They had some frailties such as a serial port being an optional - and > > > > pricey - extra, and a Centronix looking printer port that is not > > > > Centronix. But running CP/M-3.0, they are not a bad machine. > > > > > > > > - don > > > > > > > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like Amstrad PCW stuff, John. > > > > > > - don > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I came across a floppy disk that says it is DR. Logo & Help on one side > > > > > > > and Programming Utilities on the other side. The disk is 31/8" wide and > > > > > > > 4" long. It also says CP/M PLUS SERIAL # 1006/5000-1232-2732254. Another > > > > > > > on the disk is programs copyright DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. & AMSTRAD > > > > > > > CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. I HAVE NO USE FOR THIS DISK. DOES ANYONE OUT > > > > > > > THERE HAVE A NEED FOR IT? I also came across six CF-2 disks, double > > > > > > > sided, for single sided floppy disk drive. These disks are still > > > > > > > sealed. Can anyone use these disks? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > > > > John Amirault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > donm@cts.com > > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > > > > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > > > > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > > > > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > > > > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > > > > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > > > > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > > > > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Sat Mar 6 14:46:35 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <36E191B6.5B27645C@rain.org> Message-ID: They were around a year or so ago. Probably worth another jingle. On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > John Amirault wrote: > > > > Merle, > > > > How much does Elliam Associates sell the CF-2's for? > > Is Elliam Associates still around? I remember trying to call them for VCF > 1.0 and the phone never answered. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From spc at armigeron.com Sat Mar 6 14:45:46 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903060458.UAA31764@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 5, 99 08:58:42 pm Message-ID: <199903062047.PAA28001@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/f84ddf3c/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Sat Mar 6 15:07:47 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903060923.BAA15200@saul3.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 6, 99 01:23:49 am Message-ID: <199903062109.QAA28711@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/760821f6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 14:11:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Mar 6, 99 02:07:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1225 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/6ff69cfc/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Sat Mar 6 16:23:21 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: old hp printer available, and... Message-ID: <01be681f$f128a440$c4c962cf@devlaptop> I just picked up a nice little HP 150 (series 100) and the 9121 diskdrive and the 82906A printer. I dont have any software for this machine. Can someone help me out. That someone can have the right of first refusal on the 82906A printer. If there passed, anyone can have it for the cost of shipping. And... Anyone enjoy *old* mechanical adding machines? I've got a Felt & Tarrant Mfg. Comptometer (20's ??) that looks and works great t (well, the 10th column has some problems) that I would consider putting on the trading block. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 6 16:57:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Other early collectables, was Re: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: <36E16295.7561DC8C@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Sat, 06 Mar 1999 09:15:01 -0800) References: <19990306091024.9adea6fbba0b11d2be700000e80dc880.in@insidermarketing.com> <36E16295.7561DC8C@rain.org> Message-ID: <19990306225754.2525.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I would expect the first CD-ROM drives to be collectable, early MO drives, I can imagine an eBay listing already: L@@K! KEWL RARE original Apple CD-SC drive, only $1000 (as-is)! And some working Philips CM-100 top-loading drives. I think the CM-100 was the first CD-ROM drive to hit the market. Maybe I can get $2000 each for those. Let's see, that'll get me about $25K. ;-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 16:35:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Computer education In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 6, 99 02:26:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/b988ce43/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 16:40:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903062047.PAA28001@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 6, 99 03:45:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1586 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/618e0cfc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 16:48:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903062109.QAA28711@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 6, 99 04:07:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/f9867975/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 6 17:14:13 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > Hey Don, we were given two of the 8256's in a rcent donation. I've seen > them running, and they are a nice CP/M machine, except for the flaky > drives. I was particularly impressed with the the Locasoft Word > Processor, but then, I like word processors. Still looking for Lexitron > software.... Me too! - don SNIP From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Mar 6 17:11:17 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Computer education References: Message-ID: <36E1B615.6AE3D105@halcyon.com> The idea of "layers of abstraction" is common in several aspects of computer hardware and software. If you have, or can get, a copy of "Structured Computer Organization" by Andrew S. Tanenbaum (especially the older 1st or 2nd editions for classic computer enthusiasts!) you'll see why. Tanenbaum's "Operating Systems, Design and Implementation" (the Minix book) is OS software oriented, and most networking books, like Rich Stevens's TCP/IP books, also use "layers", whether "officially" defined or not. The essence of layers is that, if well-defined, a layer needs to know only about the layer immediately below it and provide interfaces to the layer immediately above it. You can construct a complex system out of stacked layers, each layer of which is easily understandable, because you abstract out only the aspects of the system necessary for each layer. Furthermore, in the case of networking, if you carefully define what is going on in each layer, equivalent layers can be operating in completely different system, but understanding other such layers in other systems. I think what you are saying about a PDP-8 emulator is that it's a good idea to have some experience with each layer. Some people may not want to get down to the very low levels into the hardware, and not everybody has to. Take a look at Chapter 1 in Structured Computer Organization, and you'll see that layers can help you understand a computer, whether networking or not. Should you learn first that there are lots of layers, each with a virtual machine, in a computer system before you tackle any layer? Or should you get some experience with one or more layers before you can understand that layers even exist? It's probably a matter of personal preference and the way you learn best. Dave P.S. Structured Computer Organization discusses these real systems: Ed Year Computers OSes Languages 1st 1976 IBM 370, CDC Cyber, DEC PDP-11 (IBM, DEC, Multics) PL/1 2nd 1984 IBM 370, Zilog Z80, MC68000 UNIX, CP/M Pascal 3rd 1990 Intel x86, MC 680xx, UNIX, OS/2 (Assembly) RISC (SPARC, MIPS) 4th 1999 Intel x86, SPARC UNIX, Windows NT Java I don't have the 4th edition yet (~$90) so I might be a bit off on the description, and the 1st edition ($12 used) is just as good to get started. Max Eskin wrote: > > Hi folks, > Today was the first day of my free networking course at school, at the end > of which I will have received a certificate 'n stuff...anyway, the guy was > trying to explain layered protocol stacks, and data abstraction. It > occured to me that the concepts have no meaning outside the realm of > developing the protocols or applications that use these protocols. And > it's almost impossible to explain without referring to these realms. The > guy was telling us how 'everything in the computer is in binary' but you > need additional network layers 'because Word can't understand the binary > and needs it to be translated'. At this time, I was thinking about my > recent experiences with the PDP-8. I wonder, wouldn't it make everything > so much easier if every computer in schools had a PDP-8 emulator on it, > and students had to learn to make simple programs in PAL before learning > concepts like the OSI 7-layer model, etc? Because, it was obvious that > the guy was being forced to avoid saying the word 'function' or > 'subroutine' since people didn't know what it meant.... > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 6 17:34:34 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: "Larry Groebe" "collectible digital cameras?" (Mar 6, 9:22) References: <19990306091024.9adea6fbba0b11d2be700000e80dc880.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: <9903062334.ZM8841@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 6, 9:22, Larry Groebe wrote: > It occurs to me that one candidate would be the first batch of digital > cameras. > So made the first consumer-level digital camera? Kodak had a hi-end > modified Nikon about 7 years ago, but I'm thinking the Apple QuickTake > 100 is the earliest digital camera I can think of. The earliest I can think of is the Canon Ion camera, about 1989, I think. It used cute little 2.5" disks made by TDK and Sony. They looked like 3.5" microfloppies that had shrunk in the wash :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 17:14:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: old hp printer available, and... In-Reply-To: <01be681f$f128a440$c4c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Mar 6, 99 05:23:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 634 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990306/9673abf7/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Sat Mar 6 18:41:29 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <19990307004150.AAA18762@1Cust96.tnt20.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: The TI 34010 > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 1:11 PM > I have the TMS34010 data sheet here, but what we really need is the user > manual. The data sheet has the pinouts, timing diagrams, etc in it - > hardware info. It appears that programming info was mostly in the user > manual, though. The tms34020 was faster, new instructions, bigger address & data. You could even attach a FP unit to it. > > How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? > Are you sure about that? Most VRAMs (certainly the ones in use when the > 34010 came out) seem to be nothing more than DRAMs with a second address > port that transfers one row of data into a shift register. The bitstream > from the S/R is fed to the video circuitry. No bit-blit operations. The second generation had something like mask/logical operations. Comes out with the tms34010. I should have the application notes somewhere :-(( cheers, emanuel From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Mar 6 18:53:16 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: <9903062334.ZM8841@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: I have a very early CDD camera made (by MicroMint, Steve Ciarcia) to work with the Apple ][.. it is 256 pixels and still has the original software and interface card. I have had it for years, long before the onset of the dreaded 'collecting disease'. Typical of such devices, the sensor portion of it is smaller than the simple c-mount lens it uses. It uses a very clever dithering routine to 'fill in' the picture area, and the images captured can be stored and/or printed out on a dot matrix printer. More info/pix if anyone's interested. Cheers John PS: It's *not* for sale... ;} From emu at ecubics.com Sat Mar 6 18:53:59 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <19990307005924.AAA24407@1Cust23.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: The TI 34010 > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 3:48 PM > > > There are two basic types of multi processor processing, SIMD (Single > > Instruction, Multiple Data) and MIMD (Multiple Instruction, Multiple Data). I guess there are three: SIMD, MIMD & shared memory, MIMD distributed memory. (UMA & NUMA) > No, transputers are certainly MIMD. > > A transputer chip contains a complete CPU, possibly an FPU, a small > amount of RAM, and 4 high-speed serial links. You can actually ignore the > links if you want to, and use it as a simple CPU (I can't think why you'd > _want_ to do this, but you can) We did it for a laser printer. The transputer was doing the emulations,BitBlt,graphics, had the "big" memory & output shift register. Got the program downloaded from a NEC V25, which controlled the centronics & V24. Was very easy to develope, because: 1.) the transputer supported DRAM directly 2.) debugging was easy, because you could download the programs via link 3.) pin compatible versions with/without FPU (FPU was used only for postscript) 4.) Lots of application notes & support from INMOS at this time. Just my .0002 cents cheers, emanuel From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 6 19:13:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Computer education Message-ID: <199903070113.AA26265@world.std.com> from "Max Eskin" at Mar 6, 99 02:26:50 pm Message-ID: <199903070141.RAA17700@saul6.u.washington.edu> Max Eskin wrote: > need additional network layers 'because Word can't understand the binary > and needs it to be translated'. At this time, I was thinking about my That sentence is so meaningless that it is pointless. > recent experiences with the PDP-8. I wonder, wouldn't it make everything > so much easier if every computer in schools had a PDP-8 emulator on it, > and students had to learn to make simple programs in PAL before learning > concepts like the OSI 7-layer model, etc? Because, it was obvious that > the guy was being forced to avoid saying the word 'function' or > 'subroutine' since people didn't know what it meant.... I hope *he* knew what it meant. :) All of the other replies so far are totally right. I wanted to add that perhaps a pair of computer terminals (or Teletypes, for the purist) would be another important thing to have. You can show the simplest practical comptuer network, you can explain how it works, and people can *see* it at work and understand the concept of binary and the idea of protocols. If you have some sort of test equipment then you can *prove* to people that it does what you say it does. Yes, the PDP-8 is simple enough that it's idedl for explaining computer concets. I think there might be a "gulf of understanding" that students must cross, though, before they can understand your explanations. (That seems to be the case in my limited experience.) Hopefully all the people in the class are familiar with computers. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Mar 6 19:48:51 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 6, 99 05:11:23 pm Message-ID: <199903070148.RAA07954@saul6.u.washington.edu> Tony Duell wrote: [transputers generally rely on a host] > (1) is not so much of a problem. The reason most transputer systems have > a 'host' is that you can boot a transputer over one of its links without > having any user-written boot code on the transputer. This means it's easy > to develop for (no possibility of your (firmware) bootstrap having bugs > in it), etc. But you can equally boot a transputer from external ROM in > its own memory space if you want to. And hook a terminal up over an RS232 > port (the transputer's bus is similar to just about every other bus > you're likely to see, so you can have RS232 chips and SCSI chips, and > whatever, mapped into the transputer's address space). So graphics chips are a good possibility. *drool* RS232 is fine but it's not very flashy. :) > In fact one of the first INMOS transputer boards - the B001 - had a > transputer + RAM + RS232 port + ROM on it. It didn't expect a transputer > link to the host. This may be a good time to ask if there's an exhaustive list of part numbers and specifications for the various INMOS chips? I've seen lists (in a couple of mass-market books about the transputer) but I suspect they're not complete. I've never seen the actual data books. > Problem (3) is more serious - the fact that most (all?) of the transputer > chips are no longer in production. I guess that IS a problem. Do they show up on the surplus market? > > them; Sketchpad relied on them and Evans & Sutherland continued the trend. > > (I'd love to play with some of their machines!) > > Does anyone know anything about the PS/390 display from E&S? Not me. There's some sort of E&S display at the Computer Museum History Center but I don't know the model number. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Mar 6 19:51:16 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Mar 6, 99 02:07:32 pm Message-ID: <199903070151.RAA00817@saul6.u.washington.edu> > :) Well, the number of games on the PC is a very seductive thing. > > Then, 340x0 will not help you at all. However, it may make it easy to write new and high-quality games. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Mar 6 19:58:12 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903062047.PAA28001@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 6, 99 03:45:46 pm Message-ID: <199903070158.RAA28330@saul6.u.washington.edu> In an alternate universe, Sean wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Derek Peschel once stated: > > I'd either have to > > write all the software myself, port it from the IBM -- but the point was > > to *avoid* all the cruftiness of the IBM -- or write a PC emulator. Ick. > > Of course I could get the software from somewhere else. > > What type of software are you talking about? Most programs for the IBM PC > are just as crufty as the hardware. Heck, most software period is just as > crufty as the PC hardware. It's uncommon to find a decently designed piece > of software actually. I already mentioned games. I haven't exactly decided what software my perfect computer would have. I was partly alluding to the problem of getting the system up and running, which may require a lot of low-level programming. > > Also, I fear that any design I could come up with will never be as fast as > > any current PowerPC or Intel systems. Those hacks do serve a purpose! > > It doesn't have to be fast, it has to be balanced; CPU speed alone does > not a computer make. The other issue is I/O. Sure, an 80286 might have > more processing power than an IBM 360/370 [1], but an IBM 360/370 still > smokes even today's Pentium based computers because of I/O---a modern PC > still can't handle hundreds of thousands of transactions per minute. The > I/O is seriously lacking. That's a good point (and something I've thought of myself, and had forgotten until you mentioned it). But it also testifies to the advanced resources and incredible amounts of money that modern manufacturers have (and I don't have). I think that 10-20 years ago, the situation was different. > > What are the chances of successfully emulating EGA? > > Why? EGA is betcherous. Ick ptui! The discussion started out with VGA. VGA is not practical, and I think Hercules/CGA/MDA are. EGA is the only card we haven't covered yet. And EGA is bletcherous in different ways than VGA. :) It seems to have a slightly saner design; of course you may be saying that the design makes it too limited. Also it has a monitor interface that's different than any other PC graphics standard, right? -- Derek From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 6 21:47:13 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: HP 150 was Re: old hp printer available, and... In-Reply-To: <01be681f$f128a440$c4c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990306214713.2507a84c@intellistar.net> Hi Mike, I have a bunch of HP 150 stuff. Do you have a copy of the Sydex program that lets you read and write HP 150 disks on the PC? If so, I can E-mail you the DOS and some other programs. I don't need the printer, I have a couple already. Joe At 05:23 PM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >I just picked up a nice little HP 150 (series 100) and the 9121 diskdrive >and the 82906A printer. I dont have any software for this machine. Can >someone help me out. That someone can have the right of first refusal on >the 82906A printer. If there passed, anyone can have it for the cost of >shipping. > >And... Anyone enjoy *old* mechanical adding machines? I've got a Felt & >Tarrant Mfg. Comptometer (20's ??) that looks and works great t (well, the >10th column has some problems) that I would consider putting on the trading >block. > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 6 21:50:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: DECmate III software needed. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990306215051.2fe74bea@intellistar.net> I'm trying to help a friend of mine get his DECmate III running again. Does anyone have any word-processing software for one? Joe From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Mar 6 20:16:04 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: <199903061556.HAA31871@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <000001be6840$74492960$46701fd1@5x86jk> I too have started collecting these types of items because the cost of the older boxes if and when you can find them is way out of reach. I started collecting odd software packages, one I consider really weird is Paint came in a gallon paint can. I have odd size hard drives from the very small to the very large (two people to carry it). Keep computing! John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of PG Manney > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 9:58 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: collectible digital cameras? > > > > > And are there other categories of products that might become future > > collectibles? > > First mouse? Oddball mice? First hard drive? Seminal software, of course. > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Mar 6 20:26:17 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: Twinax cabling question References: Message-ID: <36E1E3C7.A37B5486@bigfoot.com> It is polarized and the copper colored conductor gets the hole with the black dot at the insulator. Reversal makes troubleshooting worse than it already is.... Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Sorry to bother the list with this (probably) basic question, but here goes. > > > > When assembling twinax patch cables, do the centre conductors in the coax need > > I've never done Twinax, but I assume it's some kind of differential signal. > > In which case polarity is likely to be important - reverse the 2 wires > and you invert the signal. > > It certainly can't hurt to get it right.. > > -tony From terryf at intersurf.com Sat Mar 6 20:31:35 1999 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <4.1.19990306202841.0092ac00@mail.intersurf.com> Hi Folks I picked up a DB MV/200 DC and the micro to load it. The problem being, I'm not sure how to hook it all back together. Anyone got any ideas or know where I can find info on the beast? The machine is ported for 48 RS232 devices, but I'm not too sure what its good for. Thanks Terry terryf@intersurf.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 19:31:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <19990307005924.AAA24407@1Cust23.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> from "emanuel stiebler" at Mar 6, 99 05:53:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/5f2fe075/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 19:36:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Mar 6, 99 04:53:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/dafecd0a/attachment.ksh From terryf at intersurf.com Sat Mar 6 20:54:56 1999 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <4.1.19990306205255.00949ce0@mail.intersurf.com> Sorry Folks, My earlier message was about a DG MV/2000 DC (Data General). I've never claimed typing as a skill :-) Terry terryf@intersurf.com From svs at ropnet.ru Sat Mar 6 19:52:39 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 08:11:01PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <19990307045239.10558@firepower> On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 08:11:01PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > I have the TMS34010 data sheet here, but what we really need is the user > manual. The data sheet has the pinouts, timing diagrams, etc in it - > hardware info. It appears that programming info was mostly in the user > manual, though. This manual is available through Advanced Book Exchange: -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From svs at ropnet.ru Sat Mar 6 19:54:04 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:47 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:11:23PM +0000 References: <199903060923.BAA15200@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990307045404.27915@firepower> On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:11:23PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the PS/390 display from E&S? Only this: Molecular Modelling We run Biograf software on a VAXstation 3200 with Evans & Sutherland PS390A graphics and SAGA sequence analysis software. We have developed considerable expertise in the field of petide structural analysis and protein engineering. Now it's my turn: does anyone have technical manuals for E&S hardware in VAXstation 8000? Someday, NetBSD/vax will run on it (once driver for KFBTA ST-506 controller is written), and having an accelerated X server would be extremely cool. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 20:47:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903070148.RAA07954@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 6, 99 05:48:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/fa2d4eb0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 6 20:39:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Computer education In-Reply-To: <199903070141.RAA17700@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 6, 99 05:41:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/3a985aea/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Mar 6 21:17:46 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes Message-ID: <199903070317.WAA20946@platy.cs.unc.edu> Visiting a surplus shop today, I found a small herd of Tek Oscilliscopes. Some of them looked pretty old to me. They want real money for them too. Details: Model Mod 1 Mod 2 Cart ----- ----- ----- ----- 564 3C66 2B67 564 3A74 2B67 Y 504 Y 561A 3A72 2B67 5111 5A20N 5B10N 515A Y 549 1a1 Y D11 5A14N 5B10N Y 504 564B 3A9 3B4 Prices were originally $200 for most of them, except the 549, which was $400. Some of them had been marked down to $100. They have some kind of automatic decrease in price based on how long things stay in the store (1% per day?), but most of them have been there only since late February. And I don't know how that effects the ones that were "manually" marked down. I suspect these prices are outlandish. The same place wants $25 for 2400 baud modems. :-) Anyway, the age-based discount may eventually make the prices more reasonable. At least for the scopes, if not the modems. The ones marked "Y" under "Cart" had a "Scope-Mobile" cart with them. But I didn't think to get model numbers from those. Oh, and I can't guarantee that these work. I didn't ask if they would allow me to test them, and at present I don't know enough to be able to test them anyway. I also can't guarantee that they'll still be there when I next visit. Questions: 0. How old are these guys? 1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from their apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) 2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't expect these guys to be easy or cheap to ship. (At least one time in the past I have had to back out of a deal because I couldn't arrange shipping within cost & safety constraints.) And the carts are probably too big to go through UPS or USPS. Given all that, if you want one, let me know. Cheers, Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Mar 6 21:22:45 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: printer ribbons Message-ID: <199903070322.WAA20967@platy.cs.unc.edu> I normally pass by printer ribbons, but these are strange, so I nabbed 'em. The ribbons are 1" wide, on spools with an inside diameter of 1.75" and an outside diameter of 4" (all approximate). I have about ten of them. Anybody have any idea what they might belong to? Anybody want them? Cheers, Bill. From rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu Sat Mar 6 21:21:26 1999 From: rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <01BE6821.619AD8A0.rmeena01@utopia.poly.edu> If you need datasheets and info on transputers, then check out my webpage. I love transputers and I devote my entire webpage to it. I maintain a huge collection of programs, documents, specs, and links on transputers. The URL is http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/ppp/533/ Ram -----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel [SMTP:dpeschel@u.washington.edu] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 8:49 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: The TI 34010 Tony Duell wrote: [transputers generally rely on a host] > (1) is not so much of a problem. The reason most transputer systems have > a 'host' is that you can boot a transputer over one of its links without > having any user-written boot code on the transputer. This means it's easy > to develop for (no possibility of your (firmware) bootstrap having bugs > in it), etc. But you can equally boot a transputer from external ROM in > its own memory space if you want to. And hook a terminal up over an RS232 > port (the transputer's bus is similar to just about every other bus > you're likely to see, so you can have RS232 chips and SCSI chips, and > whatever, mapped into the transputer's address space). So graphics chips are a good possibility. *drool* RS232 is fine but it's not very flashy. :) > In fact one of the first INMOS transputer boards - the B001 - had a > transputer + RAM + RS232 port + ROM on it. It didn't expect a transputer > link to the host. This may be a good time to ask if there's an exhaustive list of part numbers and specifications for the various INMOS chips? I've seen lists (in a couple of mass-market books about the transputer) but I suspect they're not complete. I've never seen the actual data books. > Problem (3) is more serious - the fact that most (all?) of the transputer > chips are no longer in production. I guess that IS a problem. Do they show up on the surplus market? > > them; Sketchpad relied on them and Evans & Sutherland continued the trend. > > (I'd love to play with some of their machines!) > > Does anyone know anything about the PS/390 display from E&S? Not me. There's some sort of E&S display at the Computer Museum History Center but I don't know the model number. -- Derek From rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu Sat Mar 6 21:31:47 1999 From: rmeena01 at utopia.poly.edu (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <01BE6821.6356E080.rmeena01@utopia.poly.edu> The Atari Transputer Workstation (ATW) is an example of a computer that doesn't use a host. It is build upon a T800 transputer processor and runs the Helios Operating System. Another example is XTM from Cogent Research (does anyone have a picture and/or docs for this machine) which ran Linda and NeWS-based X-Windows system. It was also powered by a transputer without a host. The transputer only uses the host for I/O and for downloading the initial program. As Tony said, you can also boot from ROM and use different types of TRAMS to handle I/O without a host. For info on the ATW, I suggest you check out http://columbia.digiweb.com/kiffer/ATW/. For general info on transputers, you can see my webpage at http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/ppp/533/. Cheers, Ram From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 6 21:46:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes In-Reply-To: <199903070317.WAA20946@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: >0. How old are these guys? Well, if they're the ones I think they are, they're OLD. These are the ones that are about two feet high, right? >1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the > frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from >their > apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) Some of those scopes were used on Mainframe class machines I believe. >2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 6 21:56:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: DECmate III software needed. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990306215051.2fe74bea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >I'm trying to help a friend of mine get his DECmate III running again. Does >anyone have any word-processing software for one? > > Joe You can find RX-50 disk images at one of the following sites, you'll need Teledisk. I believe they've got both WPS, and OS-278, plus probably some other stuff available. I've not got a DECmate, so haven't investigated such things. Metalab Archive- ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/ ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimages/rx5 0/teledisk/ Update Archive- ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/ ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/decmate/ Does anyone know what's up with Update? Basically the FTP site doesn't appear to be up :^( Opps, I spoke to soon, I just got through. Beware, it make take a while for their machine to answer up it looks like so don't get impatient. I'm not sure what format the Update stuff is in. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From go at ao.com Sat Mar 6 22:26:52 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <199903070322.WAA20967@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990306202026.035c6ba0@office.ao.com> Sound suspiciously like Printronix ribbons to me... P300 (and P600 printers I believe) used these ribbons and they were about this size. Gary At 10:22 PM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >I normally pass by printer ribbons, but these are strange, so I nabbed 'em. >The ribbons are 1" wide, on spools with an inside diameter of 1.75" and an >outside diameter of 4" (all approximate). I have about ten of them. Anybody >have any idea what they might belong to? Anybody want them? > > Cheers, > Bill. From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Mar 6 23:11:15 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (danburrows@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes Message-ID: <006901be6859$25736490$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Bill: FWIW The only to get them to come up with a realistic price is wait until after 90 days but before 120 days. Then talk to Van and make him an offer. I have dealt with them for several years. He has learned that my offers are realistic and 95% of the time takes them. He has dumpstered a lot that I had made offers on and could not get back in before 120 days. The magic # there is 120 days (the last week or the beginning of the first week of the month) That is when the dumpster gets very full. At the old location Van used to let me dumpster dive. I have not asked since they moved. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Bill Yakowenko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:25 PM Subject: OT? Tek Scopes >Visiting a surplus shop today, I found a small herd of Tek Oscilliscopes. Some >of them looked pretty old to me. They want real money for them too. Details: > > Model Mod 1 Mod 2 Cart > ----- ----- ----- ----- > 564 3C66 2B67 > 564 3A74 2B67 Y > 504 Y > 561A 3A72 2B67 > 5111 5A20N 5B10N > 515A Y > 549 1a1 Y > D11 5A14N 5B10N Y > 504 > 564B 3A9 3B4 > >Prices were originally $200 for most of them, except the 549, which was $400. >Some of them had been marked down to $100. They have some kind of automatic >decrease in price based on how long things stay in the store (1% per day?), >but most of them have been there only since late February. And I don't know >how that effects the ones that were "manually" marked down. > >I suspect these prices are outlandish. The same place wants $25 for 2400 >baud modems. :-) Anyway, the age-based discount may eventually make the >prices more reasonable. At least for the scopes, if not the modems. > >The ones marked "Y" under "Cart" had a "Scope-Mobile" cart with them. But I >didn't think to get model numbers from those. > >Oh, and I can't guarantee that these work. I didn't ask if they would allow >me to test them, and at present I don't know enough to be able to test them >anyway. I also can't guarantee that they'll still be there when I next visit. > >Questions: > >0. How old are these guys? > >1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the > frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from their > apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) > >2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't > expect these guys to be easy or cheap to ship. (At least one time in the > past I have had to back out of a deal because I couldn't arrange shipping > within cost & safety constraints.) And the carts are probably too big to > go through UPS or USPS. Given all that, if you want one, let me know. > > Cheers, > Bill. > From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 6 23:36:21 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes References: Message-ID: <36E21055.15561B5F@rain.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one > up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. What are working 465s going for now? I have heard prices anywhere from $125 to $400 without probes. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 7 00:07:07 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes In-Reply-To: References: <199903070317.WAA20946@platy.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990306220505.00b01310@mcmanis.com> At 07:46 PM 3/6/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one >up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. I've got the full docs on the 465B (its my main 'scope). They are a bit too thick to photocopy though (we're talking about 200 double sides pages approx). If there is anything in particular you'd like to know though I could find it for you... --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 7 00:09:40 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes In-Reply-To: <36E21055.15561B5F@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990306220816.00afea20@mcmanis.com> Here in the Bay area around $275 to $325 depending on condition. I've seen 'em as high as $600 but those aren't selling. You can get them for $200 at swaps and for $125 - $150 at BDI when they get them. --Chuck At 09:36 PM 3/6/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one >> up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. > >What are working 465s going for now? I have heard prices anywhere from $125 >to $400 without probes. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 7 00:09:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes In-Reply-To: <36E21055.15561B5F@rain.org> References: Message-ID: Marvin wrote: >What are working 465s going for now? I have heard prices anywhere from $125 >to $400 without probes. I picked mine up for $225 with what honestly looks to be a home made probe. Hunting through junk I picked up 15-20 years ago from the Tek country store I found a couple of better looking probes. I figure when actually need to use it I'll invest in a set of good probes. However, the going commercial rate seems to be around $900, and include probes, manuals, and calibration. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dogas at leading.net Sat Mar 6 23:59:00 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: old hp printer available, and... Message-ID: <01be685f$98d48940$f8c962cf@devlaptop> From: Tony Duell >>However, the reason I've replied is that I have the tech manuals for the >HP150 (schematics, programming info, etc), so if there's anything you >need me to look up (or if you need help fixing it ever), feel free to ask. Thanks Tony, you'll be the first to know if I get stuck once I start digging in it. ;) I think it works. It comes up in some kind of terminal configuration mode and eventually fails on an OS load... ;( What do you expect for $18. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 7 00:03:55 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: HP 150 was Re: old hp printer available, and... Message-ID: <01be6860$48a255a0$f8c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Joe > I have a bunch of HP 150 stuff. Do you have a copy of the Sydex program >that lets you read and write HP 150 disks on the PC? If so, I can E-mail >you the DOS and some other programs Cool Joe, I am sans Sydex.... shoot it over! - Mike: dogas@leading.net From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 7 00:06:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes Message-ID: <19990307061353914.AAA146@fuj03> To be down around $125, they've got to be in really sorry shape. I've seen junkers sold for that. The 465B might be lower in price than its older cousin the 465(A) because it's reputed to trigger less accurately than the (A) as a result of the compromises made in that model update. I've never seen proof of this, however. The 465's I've seen seem to sell around $400. If they're in need of work, which would make them go cheaper, they don't sell . . . Dick ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: OT? Tek Scopes > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:36 PM > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one > > up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. > > What are working 465s going for now? I have heard prices anywhere from $125 > to $400 without probes. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 7 01:01:44 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > I have a very early CDD camera made (by MicroMint, Steve Ciarcia) > > to work with the Apple ][.. it is 256 pixels and still has the > > Are you sure it's a CCD? If it's the unit I'm thinking of, it used an > IS32 (?) 'Optic RAM'. That was a DRAM chip with a quartz lid. The time That might very well be it. I faintly remember something in the doc set to that effect.. now that you mention it. I have found Steve Ciarcia's webpage, and I'm thinking of dropping him a note to see if there is anything else available for this device. Also.. it is nearly 11:00pm California time, Saturday. I have just returned home with a full truckload of DEC field-engineering test equipment from the PDP11 era. I have to sort thru it Sunday, as it's raing (for a change) right now. While I'm semi-broadcasting, I have two items that might be familiar to Herr Franke: Siemens 300 desktop card readers.. strill connected for 230vac 50htz. One still had (blank) cards in the hopper. Some of the DEC stuff: A PRS01 tape reader, an external TU58, a Qbus exerciser with two sets of paper-tape diagnostics... the smallest TI Silent 700 I've ever seen, complete with fabric carrying case, all accessories, and a 'modern' looking phone coupler... and a bunch more things in boxes to look in. Yay!! More stuff!!! I need more stuff!! I can always sleep in the truck...... Cheers John From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 7 01:02:56 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <36E17769.2D9A79CB@epix.net> References: Message-ID: Once about every three weeks a place in Huntington Beach Ca has an auction of computers, its not what it once was, but it still is entertaining. Main course today was 1150 old 486 computers along with 500 other lots. I didn't buy any of the 486's (just 10 macs), but I did see and buy some interesting items. Epson HX-20, circa 1983 portable computer with a microcassette for storage and a builtin printer. This one has a expansion unit bolted to the side, and a nice slim plastic case the whole thing fits into. It must have some internal NiCads, but I haven't opened it up, and it didn't come with a AC adapter (but 6 vdc isn't too tough). Looks extremely clean, including all the rubber parts, like it spent much of the last 16 years in its case. Skiwriter word processing software is builtin, so is basic, but the only manual is for the former. Display is LCD 120x32, or 20 characters and 4 lines. Printer I suspect matches that. Almost forgot, one of its main features are the ports, serial and full RS232 via 1/2 inch diameter round connectors on the back. Texas Instruments silent 700 terminal. Looks like a typewriter, with a thermal printer and a acoustic coupler on the back. I toted one of these around for a couple years in the earlier 80s with a pager, and I remember a plastic suitcase, but this one is open. A&J Micro Drive, date on the back is 12/6/85, this is some sort of tape drive. The unit is small 1.5 x 3 x 5, runs on 4 internal AA batteries, and has a cable with a DB25 shell and 6 pins in it. Tape sticks in the front, slightly narrower than a audio cassette, and a lot thinner. Front reads SYSTEM 100, A:, and a active/low battery light. Things I didn't buy (and if somebodys wants requires quick action) A pair of Digital LN03 laser printers Xerox (I think) 645 S Memorywriter Three boxes of circa 1988 full and half height drives, most with some sort of card edge connection, others look very much SCSI. Thats about it. Whew, bidding and BSing all day makes you tired. ;) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Mar 7 01:11:11 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 06, 1999 11:02:56 PM Message-ID: <199903070711.AAA00638@calico.litterbox.com> > A pair of Digital LN03 laser printers Nice enough laser printers for their day, but they tend to overheat, if memory serves. If you get one, make SURE the fan works. Check. I seem to recall we had problems with those on a Vax site I worked on once. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 7 04:04:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Saturday Auction fun and finds Message-ID: Sorry to repeat this, but I forgot to change the subject and didn't want to have start some thread of confusion (which it will I am sure anyway, but sorry). Once about every three weeks a place in Huntington Beach Ca has an auction of computers, its not what it once was, but it still is entertaining. Main course today was 1150 old 486 computers along with 500 other lots. I didn't buy any of the 486's (just 10 macs), but I did see and buy some interesting items. Epson HX-20, circa 1983 portable computer with a microcassette for storage and a builtin printer. This one has a expansion unit bolted to the side, and a nice slim plastic case the whole thing fits into. It must have some internal NiCads, but I haven't opened it up, and it didn't come with a AC adapter (but 6 vdc isn't too tough). Looks extremely clean, including all the rubber parts, like it spent much of the last 16 years in its case. Skiwriter word processing software is builtin, so is basic, but the only manual is for the former. Display is LCD 120x32, or 20 characters and 4 lines. Printer I suspect matches that. Almost forgot, one of its main features are the ports, serial and full RS232 via 1/2 inch diameter round connectors on the back. Texas Instruments silent 700 terminal. Looks like a typewriter, with a thermal printer and a acoustic coupler on the back. I toted one of these around for a couple years in the earlier 80s with a pager, and I remember a plastic suitcase, but this one is open. A&J Micro Drive, date on the back is 12/6/85, this is some sort of tape drive. The unit is small 1.5 x 3 x 5, runs on 4 internal AA batteries, and has a cable with a DB25 shell and 6 pins in it. Tape sticks in the front, slightly narrower than a audio cassette, and a lot thinner. Front reads SYSTEM 100, A:, and a active/low battery light. Things I didn't buy (and if somebodys wants requires quick action) A pair of Digital LN03 laser printers Xerox (I think) 645 S Memorywriter Three boxes of circa 1988 full and half height drives, most with some sort of card edge connection, others look very much SCSI. The HX-20 looks too neat to part with, but if someone wants the 700 or weird little drive I am open to it. The latter three big heavy items I am willing to facilitate, but not get in the middle of. From Jgzabol at aol.com Sun Mar 7 05:42:39 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 06.03.99 22:42:56 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << > How does the 34010 do in handling bitmaps? > > The 34020 (and I believe the 34010 had that as well) deals with that > through > special bit-blit operations, bit-block-transfer and simultaneous > logical/masking > operations. This is much supported by VRAM hardware used at that time; > the VRAM chips have bitblt features built in. The performance was exactly Are you sure about that? Most VRAMs (certainly the ones in use when the 34010 came out) seem to be nothing more than DRAMs with a second address port that transfers one row of data into a shift register. The bitstream from the S/R is fed to the video circuitry. No bit-blit operations. The 34010 has instructions for raster operations (bit-blits) using data anywhere in the address space, and they don't appear to depend on features of the RAMs used. -tony >> There is in fact both: the processor can do it, but at least the VRAMs I looked at have some provisions for (simple) versions of that. What is most important is to use the bit-plane masking facilities inside the VRAMs - at least those generations I looked at, maybe that was later than 34010 times. John From Jgzabol at aol.com Sun Mar 7 05:42:42 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes Message-ID: <6819d0de.36e26632@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 07.03.99 04:20:03 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << Visiting a surplus shop today, I found a small herd of Tek Oscilliscopes. Some of them looked pretty old to me. They want real money for them too. Details: Model Mod 1 Mod 2 Cart ----- ----- ----- ----- 564 3C66 2B67 1968 3C66 _NOT_ general purpose !!! 564 3A74 2B67 Y 1968 2 MHz four-channel storage 504 Y 1971 450 kHz single channel 561A 3A72 2B67 1961 650 kHz dual channel 5111 5A20N 5B10N too new for my docs 515A Y 1971 15 MHz single channel 549 1a1 Y 1973 30 MHz dual trace storage D11 5A14N 5B10N Y too new 504 see above 564B 3A9 3B4 1968 unknown amplifier Prices were originally $200 for most of them, except the 549, which was $400. Some of them had been marked down to $100. They have some kind of automatic decrease in price based on how long things stay in the store (1% per day?), but most of them have been there only since late February. And I don't know how that effects the ones that were "manually" marked down. I suspect these prices are outlandish. The same place wants $25 for 2400 baud modems. :-) Anyway, the age-based discount may eventually make the prices more reasonable. At least for the scopes, if not the modems. The ones marked "Y" under "Cart" had a "Scope-Mobile" cart with them. But I didn't think to get model numbers from those. Oh, and I can't guarantee that these work. I didn't ask if they would allow me to test them, and at present I don't know enough to be able to test them anyway. I also can't guarantee that they'll still be there when I next visit. Questions: 0. How old are these guys? --- see above 1. Are any of these potentially useful for computer work? Can they handle the frequencies used in old machines, say, up to a few MHz? (Judging from their apparent age, I wouldn't hope for much more than that.) 2. Anybody want one? Be aware that in addition to the price tag, I wouldn't expect these guys to be easy or cheap to ship. (At least one time in the past I have had to back out of a deal because I couldn't arrange shipping within cost & safety constraints.) And the carts are probably too big to go through UPS or USPS. Given all that, if you want one, let me know. Cheers, Bill. >> 1. There is a book about old Tek scopes available at www.tubesandmore.com Above info is from that book. 2. Today, you can still borrow microfiche from Tek of ANYTHING they ever produced !! I did so for my 549 which is my main scope. 3. Here in the Munich area you find these things in the fleamarket newspapers and web pages; typically they sell in the DM 150.- to 450.- range. Right now there is a pretty nice 551 for sale since several weeks, 27 MHz, TRUE dual trace (i.e., two electron guns), you could probably get it for between DM 100,- and DM 200,-, but shipping of course would be PROHIBITIVELY expensive. If I did not already have three Teks, I would get it. These prices INCLUDE checking it out before you buy !! Regards John G. Zabolitzky From guerney at uq.net.au Sun Mar 7 06:09:07 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. Message-ID: <025e01be6893$5087a260$32f665cb@default> For so long on this list, I have been reading about peoples "good days", "lucky days" and so on. Now at last, I can talk about my "real beaut" day! A local collector, not known previously to me, put a post on one of the "aus.forsale" newsgroups saying he wanted to thin out his collection, and he preferred a person take the "off-load" as one lot. Thanks to a "heads-up" from Andrew Davie, I got in first (as it turns out, no one else offered to take the lot) and the previous owner even volunteered to bring it all around in his van. The delivery consisted of: EACA Genie III, an all-in-one 2x5.25" and monitor (TRS-80 compatible and CP/M) CPT 8525, an all-in-one 2x8" drive and page-view monitor Spectravideo 328 with 605 Expander containing 2x5.25" drives and 80 column card Hitachi MB6890K ("Peach") with Hitachi MP-3550 dual floppy and Hitachi monitor Hitachi MB6890K (another) with 3rd party dual floppy unit and two other expansion cards IBM 5150, made in the Wangaratta plant in Australia that IBM ran for a few years, with a 64K-256K board and cassette connector IBM DisplayWriter (Model 6580) with 2 x 2 x 8" drive units (ie 2 lots of double 8" drive modules) Digital Professional 350 but without its hard drive (but a double floppy) and 2 x VR201 monitors TRS-80 MC-10 with 16K expansion TRS-80 Model III 16K with no drives TRS-80 Model III 48K with 2x5.25" drives TRS-80 Model 4 64K with 2x5.25" drives TRS-80 Color Computer 1 TRS-80 Color Computer 2 with NEC PC-8032B dual 5.25" disc unit and TRS-80 Line Printer VIII VIC-20 Dick Smith System 80 cassette system Microbee Series 2 Colour Microbee Series 3 128K with Microbee Disc System (5.25" in large shoebox) And all the previous owner wanted ... a swap for my Apple ][+ which he needed for a project he was working on now. Thanks Chris, if you are reading this, much appreciated and valued. Shouldn't be too hard to find another ][+. Of these computers, the CPT is the least known (to me). I can find only one mention of it on the Web and that guy didn't even have a boot disk for it. At least I have some 8" disks (don't know if it works yet, still got to do the preliminary check-out before applying power). One of the floppies says "Tandon CPT" on it (hand-written) and a sticker somewhere suggests it was built in Ireland. I'd appreciate some more info on it. Hardly anything on the net about this chunky IBM Display Writer either, its not even on the Comprehensive Computer Catalog as far as I can see ... Anyone got a spare monitor cable for the Hitachi Peach's? (Luckily, they also have B&W monochrome output so I can see that this system works). Now, I've got plenty to do for a while ... Phil Guerney in Brisbane, Australia From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Mar 7 06:09:53 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <025e01be6893$5087a260$32f665cb@default> from "Phil Guerney" at Mar 7, 99 10:09:07 pm Message-ID: <199903071209.EAA14035@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Of these computers, the CPT is the least known (to me). I can find only one > mention of it on the Web and that guy didn't even have a boot disk for it. > At least I have some 8" disks (don't know if it works yet, still got to do > the preliminary check-out before applying power). One of the floppies says > "Tandon CPT" on it (hand-written) and a sticker somewhere suggests it was > built in Ireland. I'd appreciate some more info on it. > > Hardly anything on the net about this chunky IBM Display Writer either, its > not even on the Comprehensive Computer Catalog as far as I can see ... I'm not an expert on CPT, but I did have one of their dedicated word processors for a while. (It may have used a Z-80, I forget. It had 3.5" drives.) Do you know if your model was designed as a general-purpose computer or as a turnkey word processor? As for the DisplayWriter, the situation is pretty similar. I think you need IBM's software to get it to work. I don't know how much reverse engineering has been done (thus, how easy it is to run other programs). -- Derek From guerney at uq.net.au Sun Mar 7 06:31:22 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: CPT (was "beaut day") Message-ID: <000601be6896$6ae30ac0$32f665cb@default> -----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel >I'm not an expert on CPT, but I did have one of their dedicated word >processors for a while. (It may have used a Z-80, I forget. It had 3.5" >drives.) Do you know if your model was designed as a general-purpose >computer or as a turnkey word processor? This CPT 8525 has two vertical 8" drives to the right of that portrait monitor. Very heavy also. The 8" disks with it include CP/M and CBasic so it is not a dedicated word processor. Phil From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 05:39:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes In-Reply-To: <199903070317.WAA20946@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Mar 6, 99 10:17:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/36ad4f7b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 05:43:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: old hp printer available, and... In-Reply-To: <01be685f$98d48940$f8c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Mar 7, 99 00:59:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 481 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/aebd375d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 05:48:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: collectible digital cameras? In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Mar 6, 99 11:01:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/0fa4a499/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 05:57:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 6, 99 11:02:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2326 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/ff2907dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 06:39:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Mar 7, 99 06:42:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/b5eed389/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.ddns.org Sun Mar 7 09:55:47 1999 From: pechter at pechter.ddns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Computer education In-Reply-To: <199903070113.AA26265@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 6, 1999 8:13:24 pm" Message-ID: <199903071555.KAA00781@pechter.ddns.org> > It's the side effect of knowledgeless people prescribing course goals and > content. > > Allison But they've laid off all the technical types from all the training departments leaving "educators" and "industrial psychologists..." Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.ddns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 7 10:12:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Computer education In-Reply-To: <36E1B615.6AE3D105@halcyon.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, David C. Jenner wrote: >I think what you are saying about a PDP-8 emulator is that it's a good >idea to have some experience with each layer. Some people may not >want to get down to the very low levels into the hardware, and not >everybody has to. No, what I'm trying to say is that it's impossible to understand the _meaning_ of a layer without the ability to think from a programmer's point of view. It is possible to make a single executable file that encompasses all of the layers involved, but the source code can be designed such that components are easily modified. Of course, a person who doesn't understand programming can't understand that. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 7 10:26:38 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: DECmate III software needed. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990306215051.2fe74bea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: >I'm trying to help a friend of mine get his DECmate III running again. Does >anyone have any word-processing software for one? You'll need a PC with a 5.25" drive. Do a web search for Teledisk, you're eventually going to come upon the executable available for download. Download it. You will also need an unzipping program like PKunzip or WinZip. Then, head over to ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/ pdp-8/diskimages/rx50. Now, there are two directories (folders, whatever), one called labels, the other called teledisk. The first contains text files that are the labels that you would place on files of corresponding name in the second directory. For instance, blank.lbl in the first corresponds to blank.td0 (compressed to blank.zip) in the second. Look through the labels whose names begin with "wp", those are the WPS disks, and select the ones you want. Download the corresponding ZIP files, unzip them, and run teledisk (from MS-DOS, if in Win95 restart in DOS mode). Now, you have to select the files one by one and write them to separate disks. I don't recall how many of the disks on the site you need to actually do word processing. You may also want the games files, those have fun stuff like hangman. Good luck! --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Mar 7 10:25:47 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Capacitor xref help please! (TU56) Message-ID: <000901be68b7$29909e40$0101a8c0@jay> Got a bad cap in a TU56 drive. Markings are as follows: 7330L, SPRAGUE, 100MFD, 55V-60CY, A5030. Can anyone tell me where I can order a replacement that's both electrically and mechanically (size) the same? More importantly, I've been scrounging the net for this info. Is there a good online resource I'm missing for xrefing caps? Thanks! Jay West From tomeditf at worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 7 05:09:50 1999 From: tomeditf at worldnet.att.net (Mindy Fuchs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: HP 7475A Plotter Message-ID: <001d01be6891$561de920$dcd84d0c@oemcomputer> Last year you sent out a request for info about HP7475A Plotter pens. Like you, I am now trying to get one working. DId you find a source for pens? Also, do you have any idea where I can get a plotter manual? Even xerox copies of the important pages would help. ALso, any idea what cable is required. Thanks. Allen Rose / West Palm Beach FL Pls reply to p025558b@pb.seflin.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/2d13d117/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 7 10:55:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK Message-ID: <199903071655.AA02391@world.std.com> ). Oh the launch date is 1984 and production continued through 90-91 (memory test). Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 11:08:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Capacitor xref help please! (TU56) In-Reply-To: <000901be68b7$29909e40$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Mar 7, 99 10:25:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/e05baf9d/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Mar 7 11:34:09 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Capacitor xref help please! (TU56) Message-ID: <006a01be68c0$b66a9380$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... >Have you tried a motor repair place? This sounds like a fairly standard >'run capacitor' for an induction motor. Tried several local places no one has it so I was looking through the digikey catalog... >Just out of curiousity, why do you think it's bad? Is it leaking or >something? Motor problems on TU56s are normally caused by the transistors >on the G848 card (or problems on the G847). It was just a guess given the one inch tall electrolyte snake growing out of the top of the can :) Long as I'm in there working on it I was going to replace all four (is this overkill)? Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 11:36:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Capacitor xref help please! (TU56) In-Reply-To: <006a01be68c0$b66a9380$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Mar 7, 99 11:34:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/d3567603/attachment.ksh From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 7 11:48:50 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: Cursor newsletter In-Reply-To: <199903012239.OAA12786@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > We all remember the show, but does anyone remember the newsletter? > (hopeful smile) I don't think I ever saw the newsletter itself, but I have copies of Cursor Magazine's tapes #1 through #8, plus a couple of programs from later tapes. The first few tapes have 1978 dates. One of my favourite games of all time (OURANOS!) was published on a Cursor tape. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 7 12:33:28 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. References: <025e01be6893$5087a260$32f665cb@default> Message-ID: <36E2C678.543FDC29@rain.org> Phil Guerney wrote: > > Of these computers, the CPT is the least known (to me). I can find only one > mention of it on the Web and that guy didn't even have a boot disk for it. > At least I have some 8" disks (don't know if it works yet, still got to do > the preliminary check-out before applying power). One of the floppies says > "Tandon CPT" on it (hand-written) and a sticker somewhere suggests it was > built in Ireland. I'd appreciate some more info on it. CPT was a dedicated word processor. I think I still have some old boards for one of their models and the floppy drives from when I decided it wasn't working and I needed the room (about 6 or so years ago.) From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Mar 7 12:58:34 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: poly-XFER for DEC VT180 or DECmate II Message-ID: <36E2CC5A.B86695B5@halcyon.com> I got some docs (still shrink wrapped!) for poly-XFER CP/M Comms for the DEC VT-180 or DECmate II running CP/M. You could probably find the disks for this at ftp.update.uu.se? If anyone would like these, let me know. Dave From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Mar 7 13:03:32 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <025e01be6893$5087a260$32f665cb@default> from Phil Guerney at "Mar 7, 1999 10:09:07 pm" Message-ID: <199903071903.NAA13612@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > CPT 8525, an all-in-one 2x8" drive and page-view monitor > > Of these computers, the CPT is the least known (to me). I can find only one > mention of it on the Web and that guy didn't even have a boot disk for it. > At least I have some 8" disks (don't know if it works yet, still got to do > the preliminary check-out before applying power). One of the floppies says > "Tandon CPT" on it (hand-written) and a sticker somewhere suggests it was > built in Ireland. I'd appreciate some more info on it. > I have quite a few CPT 8" floppy disks, WORD Processing Format (or so every floppy disk says). I knew that 99.99+ % of these were filled with worthless junk (these came from the office secretaries for the Uof Minnesota Geography department about 10 years ago). Most disks are clearly labeled as having various papers that the office staff were responsible for typing. However, I decided to get all those disks out and search for any unusual floppies. And what do you know, I actually found something. I have some original CPT disks from 82/83. They are labeled: "8500 series utilities", "8500 series disk sort", "program Disk; Standard Word Processing;8515/25". I also have a non-original disk that has this title typed by someone: "CPT Asyncronous Code Sets and Control Page". I also found a pair of disks for a Quadritek 1200. Does anyone know what this is? One is QUAD BASIC, th other is a user-made disk that is labeled: TOS 5.03, and later it says TOS 6.03 3/2/82. Also I-Sets 1.04, and Font Width Library. -Lawrence LeMay From spc at armigeron.com Sun Mar 7 14:51:32 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 6, 99 10:40:16 pm Message-ID: <199903072051.PAA13621@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/0e4eedc3/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Sun Mar 7 14:58:42 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:48 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903070158.RAA28330@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 6, 99 05:58:12 pm Message-ID: <199903072058.PAA13747@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/6308c1a5/attachment.ksh From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Mar 7 17:09:35 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK In-Reply-To: <199903070711.AAA00638@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: <199903072309.JAA14498@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 00:11 07/03/99 -0700, Jim Strickland wrote: >Nice enough laser printers for their day, but they tend to overheat, if >memory serves. If you get one, make SURE the fan works. Check. I seem >to recall we had problems with those on a Vax site I worked on once. Sure do. When they were a relatively new product my employer of the time decided to standardize on them. We had 8 but one was always playing up. Digital took it back to their offices in Melbourne to see what the problem was. Over a weekend it overheated, caught fire and almost totally destroyed FS. They gave us a new LN03 which worked fine.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Mar 7 16:08:35 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903070158.RAA28330@saul6.u.washington.edu>; from Derek Peschel on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:58:12PM -0800 References: <199903062047.PAA28001@armigeron.com> <199903070158.RAA28330@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990308010835.27712@firepower> On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:58:12PM -0800, Derek Peschel wrote: > I already mentioned games. I haven't exactly decided what software my > perfect computer would have. I was partly alluding to the problem of > getting the system up and running, which may require a lot of low-level > programming. Several arcade machines use TMS34010. Thus, MAME emulates it. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Mar 7 17:52:38 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <199902191729.LAA00489@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: BAL-500 EPROM Programmer - Plugs into Apple II slot - Programs 2716, 2732, 2764 and 27128 Eproms Condition: Working. You simply plug it into an Apple II, bang its slot number with PR#slot and up comes up a menu allowing you to read, write, verify, etc Eproms. I have no documentation for the device but it's use is fairly self-explanatory except that I can't recall if you plug the device to be programmed in the bottom pins of the socket or the top pins. The socket has a white mark which corresponds to the notch on the Eprom so at least device orientation is obvious. Auction Terms: This will be a sealed bid auction. Send your offers to me at wirehead@retrocomputing.com. They will be recorded and the highest bidder by Midnight March 11, 1999 will be sold the item. Everyone, who bid, will receive an email at that time telling them the high bid but not to whom it was sold. Shipping will be in addition to your bid and will be $5.00 in the continental United States. The minimum bid on this item is $5.00. Payment Terms: The successful bidder will send a check or money order for the winning bid amount plus $5.00 shipping to my address, which the winner will be provided. If payment is in the form of a money order, the item will be shipped immediately. If payment is in the form of a check, shipping will be delayed 3 days while the check clears. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 17:04:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903072058.PAA13747@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 7, 99 03:58:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/2fda6622/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 17:02:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903072051.PAA13621@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 7, 99 03:51:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990307/577f6833/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 7 18:25:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990307162334.00a46a20@mcmanis.com> I'm sorry Anthony but I have to object, we already had this discussion that this was not the list to talk about Ebay and now you are turning it _into_ ebay. Couldn't these auctions also be run on the ccauction list that Doug hosts on nut.net ? --Chuck At 05:52 PM 3/7/99 -0600, Anthony Clifton - Wirehead wrote: >BAL-500 EPROM Programmer > - Plugs into Apple II slot > - Programs 2716, 2732, 2764 and 27128 Eproms From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Mar 7 18:19:29 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: historical question - paper tape vs. punched cards Message-ID: <010301be68f9$562eb6c0$0101a8c0@jay> Just a curious question: Which came first, paper tape or punched cards? I'm not concerned about "invention" dates, I'm more interested in "came into very common use" dates. Actually, I'm not concerned about dates either - just which one came into very common use the first. Always wondered - thought people here may have an idea. Jay West From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 7 18:28:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990307162334.00a46a20@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'm sorry Anthony but I have to object, we already had this discussion that > this was not the list to talk about Ebay and now you are turning it _into_ > ebay. Couldn't these auctions also be run on the ccauction list that Doug > hosts on nut.net ? Chuck, I have to object to your objection. I think what Anthony is doing is quite admirable. Instead of taking his stuff directly to ebay, he's offering it here on the list with a very fair auction system. He takes the highest bid by a certain date and sells the item for that amount. He doesn't disclose the bids, so there's no chance for last minute outbidding, and he keeps the winner's identity private. I don't think what he's doing is much different than offering it for outright sale really. He's simply giving himself a chance to get the best price he can while at the same time offering it in a way that remains fair for the buyer. I don't think he's been excessive with his auctions either. So far it seems to be one every week or so. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 7 18:31:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: historical question - paper tape vs. punched cards In-Reply-To: <010301be68f9$562eb6c0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Jay West wrote: > Just a curious question: > > Which came first, paper tape or punched cards? I'm not concerned about > "invention" dates, I'm more interested in "came into very common use" dates. > Actually, I'm not concerned about dates either - just which one came into > very common use the first. > > Always wondered - thought people here may have an idea. Good question. Did the Jacquard Loom (circa 1805?) come before player pianos? If so then I believe punched cards came first, and were adopted for use by Hollerith in his census tabulating machines. I don't know when punched tape came into regular use for computers specifically. I do know that Konrad Zuse's (pronounced tzoo-zay) Z1 (or was it the Z3?) used punched 35mm film recycled from his local movie theater. This is circa 1937. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 7 20:25:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: HP 7475A Plotter In-Reply-To: <001d01be6891$561de920$dcd84d0c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990307202525.44df1f18@intellistar.net> Hi Allen, Greetings from Orlando. At 11:09 AM 3/7/99 -0000, you wrote: >Last year you sent out a request for info about HP7475A Plotter pens. Like you, I am now trying to get one working. DId you find a source for pens? There's tons of them advertised on E-bay. I've found piles of them at hamfest and thift stores. Also, do you have any idea where I can get a plotter manual? HP probably still has them. Even xerox copies of the important pages would help. ALso, any idea what cable is required. Depends on which interface you have on the computer and on the plotter. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 7 20:33:10 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: old hp printer available, and... In-Reply-To: <01be685f$98d48940$f8c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990307203310.4817c322@intellistar.net> At 12:59 AM 3/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >From: Tony Duell >>>However, the reason I've replied is that I have the tech manuals for the >>HP150 (schematics, programming info, etc), so if there's anything you >>need me to look up (or if you need help fixing it ever), feel free to ask. > Mike before you can get it to boot you have to go into the computer setup menu and tell it what kinds of drives, printers, etc are at each HP-IB address and what address to boot from. Also there's a snap-in battery holder in the back. Check the batteries (two N-cells) and make sure they're good, they power the CMOS memory for the settings. As you discovered, there is a terminal program in ROM. Joe From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Mar 7 18:37:36 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990307162334.00a46a20@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> I'm sorry Anthony but I have to object, we already had this discussion that >> this was not the list to talk about Ebay and now you are turning it _into_ >I think what Anthony is doing is quite admirable. Instead of taking his >stuff directly to ebay, he's offering it here on the list with a very fair Thanks Sellam. That's precisely what I'm trying to do. I want the stuff to go to people who'll actually collect or use it. The auction lists and Ebay get the stuff snapped up by investor types who think they can turn a buck. The problem is that alot of what I'm selling isn't Altairs and IMSAIs and have very specific purposes. Only those who actually use the stuff will know what it's for and why they'd want it. >I don't think what he's doing is much different than offering it for >outright sale really. He's simply giving himself a chance to get the best >price he can while at the same time offering it in a way that remains fair >for the buyer. > That's true. In addition, doing a sealed bid auction insures that traffic to the list resulting from my postings is nil. If it's sealed bid, everyone has to send responses to ME ONLY or their bid becomes public knowledge. >I don't think he's been excessive with his auctions either. So far it >seems to be one every week or so. I've been trying to keep it no more frequent than 3 or 4 days between items. I have alot of stuff to sell but doing it this way makes it easier to keep track of what's in progress, what needs to be shipped out, etc. Response to Objections from Chuck: At any rate, I've only had one complaint on this but I've got bids on all the items I've posted so I can't see that I'm really causing a problem. It's ok to object to what I'm doing in principle and I respect that but I'm doing everything I can to make a win-win situation and I think that's reflected in the manner with which I've been conducting myself. Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From gareth.knight2 at which.net Sun Mar 7 18:32:16 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 Message-ID: <091d01be68fc$745f4300$5831fea9@gaz> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > My idea of a perfect computer is the Amiga (or it's the closest thing yet >I've found). Enough hardware to keep the hardware guys happy, and the best >kernel design I've seen in a long time to keep the software guys happy. >Heck, the AmigaOS even has controlled ways for programs to take over the >hardware. And it's still a great gaming system. Then you're going to be very happy this November when the next generation Amigas are launched. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Mar 7 18:54:35 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: OT? Tek Scopes References: <36E21055.15561B5F@rain.org> Message-ID: <36E31FCA.4C251BCD@bigfoot.com> http://margo.student.utwente.nl/~wel/tek.htm is loaded with Tek scopes, info, buysell info, etc as well as sources for manuals. I'm down to a 454 and 454R and they suit my analog needs just fine. For digiital I use my HP digital storage scope. Marvin wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > I don't suppose there were any books for a "Tek 465B" scope? I picked one > > up a few months ago at the last CP/M swap meet, but don't have any doc's. > > What are working 465s going for now? I have heard prices anywhere from $125 > to $400 without probes. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Mar 7 18:59:43 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer References: Message-ID: <36E320FF.56916297@idirect.com> >Sellam Ismail wrote: > I think what Anthony is doing is quite admirable. Jerome Fine adds: PLUS, I don't think he is looking for a very high price and people who buy the stuff and find it does not work can complain to the list. That alone should be a great help. One thing that would be reasonable is to disclose the final bid so that other list members can get a feel for the prices. I don't think I will even buy stuff here or on e-bay since I am (and probably always will be) an RT-11 addict, but I can't see the harm. In general I will offer any of my hardware and/or software for local pickup free if I have anything since if I ever want to discard anything, it will already be too out of date. Plus if I won't ship from Canada, the market is very restricted, although there are a few list members here in Toronto. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Mar 7 19:04:43 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: disassembling a monitor Message-ID: <199903080104.UAA25286@platy.cs.unc.edu> Okay, this is stupid. It should be a simple thing. But, as I always say, better safe than dead. So... Can anybody give me pointers on disassembling an IBM 5151 monitor? I rescued one from a dumpster, but it seems to have something metallic-sounding loose inside. Since it sounds like metal (and not glass, for instance), I want to remove it (or properly attach it wherever it belongs) before powering up. I can imagine all sorts of bad things that a loose bit of metal could do inside a monitor with the power on. I know enough to avoid the high voltages once I get inside, but would much prefer to get inside without breaking the CRT's neck. The enclosure is made of two parts; the front that fits around the face of the CRT and the front half of the bottom form one piece; the remainder is the second. When I set the thing on its face and remove all screws in the second piece, the front half of the bottom flexes inward under the weight of whatever is attached to it. It does this enough to worry me - any attached innards must be getting closer to the CRT's neck when that happens. Help? Thanks in advance. Bill. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 7 19:22:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: References: < <4.1.19990307162334.00a46a20@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990307172045.00a79370@mcmanis.com> To be clear, I think what Anthony is doing is a Good Thing. I was just objecting to using _this_ list for it. It would seem to be an excellent use of the ccauction list. --Chuck At 06:37 PM 3/7/99 -0600, Anthony Clifton - Wirehead wrote: >At any rate, I've only had one complaint on this but I've got bids on >all the items I've posted so I can't see that I'm really causing a >problem. It's ok to object to what I'm doing in principle and I respect >that but I'm doing everything I can to make a win-win situation and I >think that's reflected in the manner with which I've been conducting >myself. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Mar 7 19:29:04 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AMSOFT on DISK Message-ID: <005401be6903$0d682520$1a1fe1cf@Molly.litterbox.com> *nod* Ours were well into the million pages throughput. This was a college housing department, and we were running ALLIN1 desktop on our vaxcluster so an obscene amount of printing fell to our 2 LN03s (one per floor of the admin building). And yes again, the one that overheated DID have a fan motor problem. The fact that they stood up to this constant abuse speaks well of them, to be honest. And actually since I know the vaxcluster is still in place at that site (I ping it from time to time out of curiosity) I shouldn't be surprised if those printers are still there, 6 years later. > >Only if the fans are missing or dead. I was part of that design team and >overheating was never a problem. The most common problem was a printer >designed for an peak use of 5,000 pages a month being used as a line >printer. They get a bit tired and cranky if they werent kept clean and >get over a million pages on them. Inshort they were commonly abused. > >Oh, one note... there are about 5 versions of the printer depeinding on the >logic (ansi, enhanced ansi, postscript, postscript/ansi hybrid, video engine >). > >Oh the launch date is 1984 and production continued through 90-91 (memory >test). > > >Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 7 19:39:50 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, need a Board ID from Data Systems Design Message-ID: <4.1.19990307173521.00ae6b40@mcmanis.com> I've got a Q-bus board I can't identify, its labelled: Data Systems Design 44432-4 Its a dual height card with a 26 pin idc connector on the top and two 82S100 chips. I'm guessing it is some sort of parallel interface... --Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Mar 7 19:12:30 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer Message-ID: <19990307.192625.267.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:28:52 -0800 (PST) Sellam Ismail writes: >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> I'm sorry Anthony but I have to object, we already had this >discussion that >> this was not the list to talk about Ebay and now you are turning it >_into_ >> ebay. Couldn't these auctions also be run on the ccauction list that >Doug >> hosts on nut.net ? > >Chuck, I have to object to your objection. > >I think what Anthony is doing is quite admirable. Instead of taking >his >stuff directly to ebay, he's offering it here on the list with a very >fair >auction system. He takes the highest bid by a certain date and sells >the >item for that amount. He doesn't disclose the bids, so there's no >chance >for last minute outbidding, and he keeps the winner's identity >private. > I'll second that. The whole purpose of this group is for hobbyists to help each other. By offering it here first, he's giving opportunity to those of us who normally don't get them . . .. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From steverob at hotoffice.com Sun Mar 7 19:42:14 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer References: Message-ID: <36E32AF6.6D239B3@hotoffice.com> > I don't think what he's doing is much different than offering it for > outright sale really. He's simply giving himself a chance to get the best > price he can while at the same time offering it in a way that remains fair > for the buyer. I like the idea of items being offered for sale to the group but, I don't like the idea of bidding (secretively) against my friends. Steve Robertson From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 7 19:56:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, need a Board ID from Data Systems Design Message-ID: <199903080156.AA03937@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36E32E96.C7A0F0F7@hotoffice.com> > Mindy Fuchs wrote: > DId you find a source for pens? I been looking for inexpensive pens but, haven't found a source. They are offered pretty often on Ebay but, don't seem to be a great bargain. I also understand that Drafting Supply & Blueprint retailers carry them. > Also, do you have any idea where I can get a plotter manual? I'm still looking for a manuals for a 7550. They are more difficult to find than the plotters. > Also, any idea what cable is required. I did some searching and found cabling info on HPs site. Sorry, I don't remember the URL. If I stumble across it again, I'll let you know. Steve Robertson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 19:22:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: historical question - paper tape vs. punched cards In-Reply-To: <010301be68f9$562eb6c0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Mar 7, 99 06:19:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 510 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/03665878/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 7 19:34:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: disassembling a monitor In-Reply-To: <199903080104.UAA25286@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Mar 7, 99 08:04:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/5dfe6d17/attachment.ksh From rws at ais.net Sun Mar 7 20:14:23 1999 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <025e01be6893$5087a260$32f665cb@default> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Phil Guerney wrote: > CPT 8525, an all-in-one 2x8" drive and page-view monitor > Of these computers, the CPT is the least known (to me). I can find only one > mention of it on the Web and that guy didn't even have a boot disk for it. > At least I have some 8" disks (don't know if it works yet, still got to do > the preliminary check-out before applying power). One of the floppies says > "Tandon CPT" on it (hand-written) and a sticker somewhere suggests it was > built in Ireland. I'd appreciate some more info on it. That would be me that has one without a boot disk. It came out of a (wet) Dumpster and I had to really dig to find the keyboard. I too would like more info; I had one guy e-mail me to offer the program disk for free if I could fix his 8525 and convert some files "to Pentium II format" in one week. I tried convincing him to let me give it a try but he didn't respond. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Mar 7 19:13:55 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Weitek array processor and IBM 8" floppy drive: clues wanted Message-ID: <19990308041355.30213@firepower> G'day, 1. Weitek Multibus Array Processor. A two-board set for 16-bit ISA bus. Until recently, resided in an IBM 5170. Part number is 3002-0025-02. On the top board two largest chips are Weitek WTL1066GCD's, "FP data paths / multiport register files". Technical manual and/or software (math library?) would be nice to have :) 2. 8" IBM floppy drive. Visible markings: IBM53 51TD EC 786450 85-W 23 P/N 4240513 Where does this come from? DejaNews gives a clue, but no definite answer. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From ss at allegro.com Sun Mar 7 20:26:58 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <"l03130303b308ca2cea0a(a)(091)208.141.153.38(093)*"@MHS> References: Message-ID: <199903080226.SAA30345@bart.allegro.com> Re: > Thanks Sellam. That's precisely what I'm trying to do. I want the stuff > to go to people who'll actually collect or use it. The auction lists and What if he posted the item on eBay, but with a non-descript title/meaningless like "old computer", with no explanatory text, and then posted a brief message here, with a pointer to the eBay item?  The idea behind that is only a single message would ever appear for any given item ... he wouldn't need to tell the losers who won (they could check on eBay), and the mechanics are handled by eBay. > >I don't think he's been excessive with his auctions either. So far it > >seems to be one every week or so. I agree, and have no problems with it. I'd prefer a classicmp collector competing with me to having Alex Z competing :) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 7 20:36:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990307172045.00a79370@mcmanis.com> References: < Message-ID: >To be clear, I think what Anthony is doing is a Good Thing. I was just >objecting to using _this_ list for it. It would seem to be an excellent use >of the ccauction list. Ah, but I thought that was for those of us that wanted to discuss whatever was going on with eBay or other Auction sites. I don't think most of the list is on that list. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Mar 7 19:30:50 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 manuals In-Reply-To: <1999Feb04.091400.1767.189010@smtp.itgonline.com>; from Marty on Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 09:33:06AM -0500 References: <1999Feb04.091400.1767.189010@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <19990308043050.24280@firepower> G'day, I have access to several ASR 33s (with manuals) in unknown condition, and one day I am going to fix them... What other manuals might I need? Bulletin 310B: Technical Manual, 33 Teletypewriter Sets (RO, KSR, ASR) Bulletin 1184B: 33 Page Printer Set (ASR, KSR and RO): Parts -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From Guerney at uq.net.au Sun Mar 7 20:43:55 1999 From: Guerney at uq.net.au (Philip Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard, I will mail you a copy of the system disks once I work out how to make copies. Give me your details. This CPT 8525 came with CP/M and CBasic disks as well as some utility disks, so although it might be a Wordprocessing machine mostly, it must have been more generally capable. Phil On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Phil Guerney wrote: > > > CPT 8525, an all-in-one 2x8" drive and page-view monitor > > > Of these computers, the CPT is the least known (to me). I can find only one > > mention of it on the Web and that guy didn't even have a boot disk for it. > > At least I have some 8" disks (don't know if it works yet, still got to do > > the preliminary check-out before applying power). One of the floppies says > > "Tandon CPT" on it (hand-written) and a sticker somewhere suggests it was > > built in Ireland. I'd appreciate some more info on it. > > That would be me that has one without a boot disk. It came out of a (wet) > Dumpster and I had to really dig to find the keyboard. I too would like > more info; I had one guy e-mail me to offer the program disk for free > if I could fix his 8525 and convert some files "to Pentium II format" in > one week. I tried convincing him to let me give it a try but he didn't > respond. > > Richard Schauer > rws@ais.net > > > From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Mar 7 20:56:30 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, need a Board ID from Data Systems Design References: <4.1.19990307173521.00ae6b40@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <36E33C5E.3646FD6F@halcyon.com> Chuck, My database says 4432-4, but I may be off by one 4. What you have there is an interface for a DSD440: "Data Systems Design RX02-compatible floppy disk controller. Assy A4432-4." Dave Chuck McManis wrote: > > I've got a Q-bus board I can't identify, its labelled: > Data Systems Design > 44432-4 > > Its a dual height card with a 26 pin idc connector on the top and two > 82S100 chips. I'm guessing it is some sort of parallel interface... > > --Chuck From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 7 21:06:51 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <01be6910$b69ba740$b8c962cf@devlaptop> OK, here's a challenge that I hope one (or more) of you will rise too. I found something I didn't even know existed. It's the Heathkit Memory I/O Accessory ETA-3400. Woo Hoo!!! Its the expansion box for the 6800 based ET-3400 Microprocessor Learning System (one of my favorite toys.) Now for the good news, and too my dilema. It's still it kit form with all the parts! ;))) I get to build it. I guess I'll need the assembly/op docs for it. An external examination reveals rca jacks for 'tape input' and 'tape output' and also a rs-232 port. I gotta get this thing up.... help! And, with Sydex and other hp150 wares on import from Joe, the aformentioned printer is available to anyone who wants it. Also, last call on the mechanical adder, else it will go to eBay and make me millionz iz tellz ya. ;) -Mike: dogas@leading.net From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 7 21:22:19 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Most recent haul Message-ID: Saturday evening I went to a friend's business who was subleasing part of his shop to a gentleman doing 'surplus' here in Southern California. The gentleman regretfully passed away suddenly around New Years, leaving a lot of Stuff behind, which we are liquidating for the man's estate and widow. So: here are some DEC/classiccmp related items, a few of which might be of some interest to list-members. I bought these items as a lot, and will indicate which are available to the Community. (*) Two Siemens System 300 desktop card readers, still set up for 230vac/50htz. * Some kind of DEC test box, in a large blue alum. case, marked only model 93-07402, containing an RX02 disk and a printset; the disk is marked DGSBA.A11 (S/X REC.) and the printsets are marked SX TRANSLATOR.* Three nice leather shipping cases containing RL01/2 disks: in one, three disks RLO1K DX-T502K-MC CZZLDK0 DLDP V2 RL1 DIAG Pkg 1 Pkg 2 Pkg 3 in the second, 2 disks RL02K BC-EH95I-MC CZZLOTTO DLDP V2 R2 DIAG Scratch In the third, 2 disks RL02K BC-FI18S-DE 000MUB9526 VAX 8600/8650 CNSL W/DIAG (Both disks marked the same) * A PMK05 Unibus Exerciser w/doc and two paper tapes marked: MAINDEC-11-DZKUA-C-PB 6/3/76 nr Unibus Systems Exerciser Diag. MAINDEC-11-DZKUB-A-PB 3/24/76 nr Unibus Exerciser Module Diag. A Wilson Laboratories SX-530 Disk Memory Exerciser, set and cabled for SMD devices (wooo-hooo!) With doc and adpaters, and a supplement for FUJI units. A Pertech card-sized laminator with a hundred DIGITAL logo cards and plastic carriers for them, waiting to be laminated. A Digital portable fiche reader w/two lenses (24x and 42x) [Visidyne]* A Massbus T.D.R. adapter for the PDP-10... hooks up to a Tektronix 1502 Time Domain Reflectometer to diagnose Massbus continuity and signal integrity. With docs and adapters. (No Tek 1502, though... damn!) Manual says: "TDR testing of Massbus I/O bus, Memory BUs, and Channel Bus. * A VAX 8600/8650 Backplane Repair kit and manual marked "Backplane Repair Seminar Manual" This kit is in a nice Halliburton case and is full of all those wierd and wonderful tools, all made of unobtanium. * A TU58 dual external drive with cables and M8043 and Pocket Service Guide. A PRS01 portable paper tape reader with service docs, many cables, and DLv11 card... geared for slow speed. A Digital-badged Termiflex handheld data display/entry device... looks brand new... two lines of about 24 Alpha LEDs. A Fluke 8020 Dig Multimeter in a leather case w/Dec markings. A T.I. Silent 700/707 Very Tiny terminal... about the size of an EPSON HX-10 or Radio Shack 100... in a well-worn heavy cloth carrying case, complete with detached acoustic phone coupler, power brick, and one unused roll of thermal paper. There is more DEC-related stuff still at the place, including maybe 6 or 7 temp/humidity circular chart recorders... more of the Termiflex units.. about ten more suitcase-type testers and exerciser boxes, and about a ton of non-list-realted test equipment I'm going to sort thru in the next few weeks. Any interest.. please e-mail and I will forward further info. Cheers John From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 7 21:30:13 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: DEC LA36 Decwriter II Message-ID: I have a beutiful example waiting for a less crowded environment. I don't usually rate gear by appearance but this one's an 8 or 9. It has a spare 20ma card and complete oper and tech docs. This unit is 10/15/30 cps, 132 columns... classic DEC console. Yours for the asking in Southern California.. will deliver within a radius determined by your ability to bribe me. Can not ship... I have way too many items to ship to folks already. Let me know. Cheers John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 7 21:42:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Most recent haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, John Lawson wrote: > A Pertech card-sized laminator with a hundred DIGITAL logo cards > and plastic carriers for them, waiting to be laminated. Cool! We can all become DEC employees! > A Digital portable fiche reader w/two lenses (24x and 42x) > [Visidyne]* Ooh. I'm interested. > A Massbus T.D.R. adapter for the PDP-10... hooks up to a > Tektronix 1502 Time Domain Reflectometer to diagnose Massbus > continuity and signal integrity. With docs and adapters. (No Tek > 1502, though... damn!) Manual says: "TDR testing of Massbus I/O > bus, Memory BUs, and Channel Bus. * Ooh. Eric Smith is interested. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 7 21:55:25 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, need a Board ID from Data Systems Design Message-ID: <199903080355.AA21988@world.std.com> >I've got a Q-bus board I can't identify, its labelled: > Data Systems Design > 44432-4 I know DSD made RX02/RL02 disk emulators... maybe it is a controller for one of them? See if there is a 'chip' which has bands of metal -- almost like a set of fuses... this is used to configure it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 7 22:19:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) In-Reply-To: <199903080355.AA21988@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990307201320.00b24c40@mcmanis.com> At 10:55 PM 3/7/99 -0500, Megan wrote: (On the DSD board) >See if there is a 'chip' which has bands of metal -- almost >like a set of fuses... this is used to configure it. Yup, and there is a jumper buried over on the side that is labelled "RX01 EN" (presumably to enable it as an RX01 controller). So I think we've got it nailed as an RX01/RX02 controller, which is cool since I've got an RX01 drive, but those are 8" drives and the connector is only 26 pins. What I'm looking for is an M7555 or equivalent to control a couple of RX33's on one of the uVaxen (and RX33s too). My plan being that if I can re-configure a loadable media type on my second uVax it would be something tradeable in the future. And speaking of uVaxen, the uVax in the BA123 is missing the door that goes over the drive write protect buttons and the plastic 'tongue' that is used to keep the back panel shut. Anyone have a BA123 skins they would mind plundering a bit? I can trade you an RX02 controller for them :-) --Chuck From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 7 22:12:13 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <199903080412.AA01757@world.std.com> >OK, here's a challenge that I hope one (or more) of you will rise too. >I found something I didn't even know existed. It's the Heathkit Memory >I/O Accessory ETA-3400. Woo Hoo!!! Its the expansion box for the 6800 >based ET-3400 Microprocessor Learning System (one of my favorite toys.) >Now for the good news, and too my dilema. It's still it kit form with >all the parts! ;))) I get to build it. I guess I'll need the >assembly/op docs for it. An external examination reveals rca jacks for >'tape input' and 'tape output' and also a rs-232 port. I gotta get this >thing up.... help! Hey, neat! I have my ET-3400 still, and I also didn't know one of those existed. If you find a second one, I would be much appreciative if you would send me a pointer... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 7 22:18:53 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) Message-ID: <199903080418.AA05440@world.std.com> >Yup, and there is a jumper buried over on the side that is labelled "RX01 >EN" (presumably to enable it as an RX01 controller). >So I think we've got it nailed as an RX01/RX02 controller, which is cool >since I've got an RX01 drive, but those are 8" drives and the connector >is only 26 pins. What I'm looking for is an M7555 or equivalent to >control a couple of RX33's on one of the uVaxen (and RX33s too). My plan >being that if I can re-configure a loadable media type on my second uVax >it would be something tradeable in the future. Be careful... it wants to talk to the RX01/02 equivalent designed by DSD... it most probably will NOT speak to a true DEC RX01/RX02 drive... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 7 22:30:25 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <01be691c$636644c0$b8c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Megan >Hey, neat! I have my ET-3400 still, and I also didn't know one of >those existed. If you find a second one, I would be much appreciative >if you would send me a pointer... Will do Megan! They (et3400s) are fun, arent they... ;) - Mike:dogas@leading.net From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 7 22:44:54 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <199903080444.AA20593@world.std.com> Sure are... From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Mar 7 23:17:18 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... In-Reply-To: <199903080412.AA01757@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990307211718.0090f650@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:12 PM 3/7/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>OK, here's a challenge that I hope one (or more) of you will rise too. >>I found something I didn't even know existed. It's the Heathkit Memory >>I/O Accessory ETA-3400. Woo Hoo!!! Its the expansion box for the 6800 >>based ET-3400 Microprocessor Learning System (one of my favorite toys.) >>Now for the good news, and too my dilema. It's still it kit form with >>all the parts! ;))) I get to build it. I guess I'll need the >>assembly/op docs for it. An external examination reveals rca jacks for >>'tape input' and 'tape output' and also a rs-232 port. I gotta get this >>thing up.... help! > >Hey, neat! I have my ET-3400 still, and I also didn't know one of >those existed. If you find a second one, I would be much appreciative >if you would send me a pointer... > Either that, or run the PCB thru a decent scanner/copier to see if a good enough image could be had to run a few boards? (I've got an ET-3400 too!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Mar 7 23:14:48 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Sharp bubble memory cartrige Message-ID: <199903080514.WAA04927@calico.litterbox.com> I promised to mail a Sharp CE100D bubble memory cartrige to someone and I've lost the e-mail with the address, name, etc. Whoever you were, would you accept my humble appologies and send me your addy again? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Mon Mar 8 00:17:37 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 7, 99 11:02:51 pm Message-ID: <199903080618.BAA26743@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1157 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/d2b8d629/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Mon Mar 8 00:19:49 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 7, 99 11:04:47 pm Message-ID: <199903080621.BAA26766@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/74eab6bc/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Mon Mar 8 00:22:14 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <091d01be68fc$745f4300$5831fea9@gaz> from "Gareth Knight" at Mar 8, 99 00:32:16 am Message-ID: <199903080623.BAA26833@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 900 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/11669731/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 8 00:42:54 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Anyone want a Kontron? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990307224254.00948e60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Somehow, I have doubts that I'd be able to sell this at the local swap meets, and I'd rather it go to someone who may be able to use it anyway. I've got an old EPROM/PROM programmer, built into a nice Zero/Haliburton aluminum briefcase. It's a Kontron MPP-80, comes with a couple of adapters and its manuals, and it also has a built-in UV unit to erase EPROMs with. When I first got it, it would not fire up. After some intensive troubleshooting, I found and fixed a couple of problems in the power supply. It seems fine now, but I have absolutely no use for it. If there's no interest here, I'll post the thing to Haggle. I wanted to check with you lot first. If you're interested, drop me a note with an offer. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 8 00:41:27 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... References: <3.0.3.32.19990307211718.0090f650@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <36E37117.B1E47AF5@rain.org> James Willing wrote: > > >Hey, neat! I have my ET-3400 still, and I also didn't know one of > >those existed. If you find a second one, I would be much appreciative > >if you would send me a pointer... > > > > Either that, or run the PCB thru a decent scanner/copier to see if a good > enough image could be had to run a few boards? (I've got an ET-3400 too!) I made a couple of the DEC LA-36 RS232 interface boards by removing the couple of components from the baord, putting the bare board on a piece of diazo film, and making trial exposures until I had a piece of diazo film that I could use directly to image new boards with. I would guess any good photo house could do a similar operation using silver film and come up with usable artwork. Shooting a dot pattern of the holes would give a template for NC drilling the boards. From chrish at kootenay.net Mon Mar 8 01:52:23 1999 From: chrish at kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: NEED A BOOT DISK :) Message-ID: <36E381B6.8A142DFC@kootenay.net> Howdy Just wondering if someone out there would have a extra kickstart disc for an amiga 1000 that they could spare to loose for the cost of shipping + a few bucks? thanx in advance Chris Castlegar BC CANADA From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Mon Mar 8 02:06:09 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:49 2005 Subject: KayPro II Boot Disk Message-ID: <000301be693a$864597c0$fa4f5d18@codewarrior.carolina.rr.com> This boot disks seem to be all the rave :) I need one for a KayPro II. I assume this is CP/M, but I am not sure, since I never actually used this computer. But if someone can provide the disk, I will have a perfect KII. Thanks. Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! -------------------------------------------------------- From Guerney at uq.net.au Mon Mar 8 02:17:14 1999 From: Guerney at uq.net.au (Philip Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Book: Arithmetic Operations in Digital Computers (1955) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990307224254.00948e60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: This book by R K Richards has been advertised on an Australian newsgroup for $A20 (about $US13). Is anyone interested? Phil Guerney in Brisbane, Australia From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 8 03:26:37 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990307172045.00a79370@mcmanis.com> References: < Message-ID: >To be clear, I think what Anthony is doing is a Good Thing. I was just >objecting to using _this_ list for it. It would seem to be an excellent use >of the ccauction list. FWIW I don't read that list, so anything on it I would never see if it isn't duplicated on this list. From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 8 03:43:27 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <199903080226.SAA30345@bart.allegro.com> References: <"l03130303b308ca2cea0a(a)(091)208.141.153.38(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: >Re: >> Thanks Sellam. That's precisely what I'm trying to do. I want the stuff >> to go to people who'll actually collect or use it. The auction lists and > >What if he posted the item on eBay, but with a non-descript >title/meaningless like "old computer", with no explanatory text, and >then posted a brief message here, with a pointer to the eBay item? Ebay has a check box when you submit a auction listing to make it private auction (which I assume means you use the eBay hardware for bidding, but your ad doesn't show up on eBay searches etc.). From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 8 03:37:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <36E32AF6.6D239B3@hotoffice.com> References: Message-ID: >> I don't think what he's doing is much different than offering it for >> outright sale really. He's simply giving himself a chance to get the best >> price he can while at the same time offering it in a way that remains fair >> for the buyer. > >I like the idea of items being offered for sale to the group but, I >don't like the idea of bidding (secretively) against my friends. Something for people to at least consider is to offer items as, first reasonable offer. The catch here is how I would define a reasonable offer; either a price I personally set (whether I choose to reveal it or not), or a price that no other bid exceeds by say 50%. The idea here is to arrive at a "fair" price, with a process that isn't too slanted in favor of the buyer or seller. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 04:03:58 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? Message-ID: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> I know that Company A would take one of Company B's products and stick a "Company A" label on it... that's what most people mean when they say "rebadging", I think. It's pretty easy to spot, if you can find one of Company B's products for sale. But I'm also wondering about the case in which Company A *hires* Company B to make a product, and may even deny that Company B did any of the work. Is that also called rebadging? What classic hardware/software companies were most famous for this? I've learned (from Allison and Megan's various posts) that Digital sometimes used other companies' stuff -- often at the cheap end of a line of products, I suspect. What about IBM? Wang? Microsoft? I'm thinking mostly of the 60's to early 80's. I don't need to ask about the current state of the computer industry, since I already *know* that it's near-total anarchy. You may wonder what brought this stream-of-consciousness eruption on. Every time I look at TI's calculator web site, I see that they state their calculators' features in terms of "bid specifications". Now I find that creepy, personally. I always thought that TI didn't care very much about its calculators (anyone see any vintage TI calculators to go with the fine HP machines at the last VCF?). But if TI puts bids out, then they care even less than I thought. Unless they have some perverse internal bid system? And that ties into the other reason I made this post. What does the computer industry look like from the companies' perspective? What sorts of nasty deals have gone on in back rooms? Big companies love to use terms like "OEM" or "supplier" but that doesn't even scratch the surface of a complex web of relationships. Then there's the even more intricate question of the *information* behind all of the energy (i.e., the source code, algorithms, proprietary techniques). Sometimes a high enough price will buy it; sometimes it isn't available for any price... wierd. I'll save the question about the quality of the finished product for next itme. :) Besides, I already think I know the answer: often the quality is the last priority on the list, and the customer gets the shaft. (At least lately. Maybe it was different 25 years ago.) Thanks for reading this ramble, -- Derek From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Mon Mar 8 05:33:48 1999 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903080623.BAA26833@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > -spc (That, and QNX only runs on Intel, as far as I knew ... ) The Neutrino kernel that the new Amiga will be using runs on x86, MIPS and PPC. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig "Shine on your star" From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 05:49:39 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: The new Amigas (was Re: The TI 34010) In-Reply-To: from "KNIGHT G.A" at Mar 8, 99 11:33:48 am Message-ID: <199903081149.DAA13938@saul4.u.washington.edu> > The Neutrino kernel that the new Amiga will be using runs > on x86, MIPS and PPC. I've been doing some research on the current Amigas. It's a very nice platform. I may even buy a new machine (or find a current one used) but I have some reservations. Maybe you can address them: - What kind of custom hardware (if any) will be used? A PowerPC is a very nice chip, but dedicated chips can make your life so much easier. - I hope documentation is a priority. The early Amiga docs are very good but they slipped in quality (and just at the time when people needed to know the most, e.g., about the AGA hardware). I worry about Amiga trying to keep something hidden; Apple is a similar example of a company I don't trust much anymore. - How about backward compatibility? Are they going to promise a lot? Can they deliver? Again, the example of Apple sticks in my mind. Even among Motorola Amigas, compatibility can be a tricky issue. I hear it's mostly pretty good (e.g., when running old games) but it's got to break down sometimes (when the old software is very badly written). Also, it conflicts with the next point. When switching CPU's, the problem becomes much harder. Maybe it would be best to have one (or more) old Amigas. - What about new features? Protected memory? I did say this conflicts with backward compatibilty. :) The 2nd and 3rd points are most important to me. I'm continually searching for the elusive thing called "style" or "good taste" or "doing it right". In some ways, Commodore scored very high; in other ways they scored very low. It would be a shame if they just repeated their mistakes, or made some new blunders. Hmm, is the modern incarnation of a classic computer still a classic? This kind of resurrection doesn't happen very often! -- Derek From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Mar 8 06:49:14 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Apple //c Message-ID: <002f01be6962$133674c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I just got a //c over the Week End, It came with what looks like a sound system: the item is in a separate enclosure with what looks like a speaker and a volume knob. It's labelled "cricket". Does anyone on the list have any infor on this item? Power requirement, software that uses it etc... Thanks Francois From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 06:56:40 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Apple //c In-Reply-To: <002f01be6962$133674c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Mar 8, 99 06:49:14 am Message-ID: <199903081256.EAA06821@saul10.u.washington.edu> > I just got a //c over the Week End, > It came with what looks like a sound system: the item is in a separate > enclosure with what looks like a speaker and a volume knob. It's labelled > "cricket". Does anyone on the list have any infor on this item? Power > requirement, software that uses it etc... You're lucky! Unless my memory is fried, the Cricket is a speech synthesizer for the //c. I don't know if it plays music. It's separate becuase putting anything inside the //c is very difficult. On other ][ series machines, this kind of hardware came on expanion cards. Sorry, I don't have any software for the Cricket or know where you can get any. It may be compatible with some other speech chips (I sort of remember that the Cricket was made by a company that had already sold a synthesizer or two -- maybe the Echo?). (You probably know that the //c already comes with a "sound system" -- a small speaker that has to be entirely controlled by the CPU -- though it DOES have a volume knob, and you CAN play two voices at once on it.) Sellam will undoubtedly have more info. He may have the software too. -- Derek ObTopicDrift: Am I the only person who remembers the SoundChaser? (I think that's what it was called). I always wanted specs on it. Was it MIDI? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 8 09:18:15 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990308091815.2fefe05a@intellistar.net> At 02:03 AM 3/8/99 -0800, you wrote: >I'll save the question about the quality of the finished product for next >itme. :) Besides, I already think I know the answer: often the quality is >the last priority on the list, and the customer gets the shaft. (At least >lately. Maybe it was different 25 years ago.) > I used to work for Burroughs and I know they made printer ribbons for a LOT of other companies. The surprising bit was that those ribbons were usually better quality and cheaper than the ribbons that Burroughs made for themselves. The Burroughs ribbons were pretty bad. Sales of Burroughs ribbons got so bad that Burroughs started trying to force their field engineers to peddle Burroughs ribbons and other junk to their customers. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 8 09:29:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990308092920.39f7e0e6@intellistar.net> I picked up an 8080 bread board trainer made by E&L Instruments this weekend. Does anyone have a manual for it? Joe From guerney at uq.net.au Mon Mar 8 07:33:43 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. Message-ID: <003901be6968$a3f1ca40$32f665cb@default> From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 8 07:58:13 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Wang certainly used other components. Their big fixed disc drives are the same as Honeywell, who also got them from someone else. As the machines are not ready to hand, I can't peek to see the builder's name. They used Data Products for their 5573 printers, and I was surprised to find a Diablo 620 with a Wang badge. I think they also rebadged Racal-Vadic modems. On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > I know that Company A would take one of Company B's products and stick a > "Company A" label on it... that's what most people mean when they say > "rebadging", I think. It's pretty easy to spot, if you can find one of > Company B's products for sale. > > But I'm also wondering about the case in which Company A *hires* Company B > to make a product, and may even deny that Company B did any of the work. Is > that also called rebadging? > > What classic hardware/software companies were most famous for this? I've > learned (from Allison and Megan's various posts) that Digital sometimes used > other companies' stuff -- often at the cheap end of a line of products, I > suspect. What about IBM? Wang? Microsoft? > > I'm thinking mostly of the 60's to early 80's. I don't need to ask about > the current state of the computer industry, since I already *know* that it's > near-total anarchy. > > You may wonder what brought this stream-of-consciousness eruption on. Every > time I look at TI's calculator web site, I see that they state their > calculators' features in terms of "bid specifications". Now I find that > creepy, personally. I always thought that TI didn't care very much about > its calculators (anyone see any vintage TI calculators to go with the fine > HP machines at the last VCF?). But if TI puts bids out, then they care even > less than I thought. Unless they have some perverse internal bid system? > > And that ties into the other reason I made this post. What does the > computer industry look like from the companies' perspective? What sorts of > nasty deals have gone on in back rooms? Big companies love to use terms > like "OEM" or "supplier" but that doesn't even scratch the surface of a > complex web of relationships. > > Then there's the even more intricate question of the *information* behind > all of the energy (i.e., the source code, algorithms, proprietary > techniques). Sometimes a high enough price will buy it; sometimes it isn't > available for any price... wierd. > > I'll save the question about the quality of the finished product for next > itme. :) Besides, I already think I know the answer: often the quality is > the last priority on the list, and the customer gets the shaft. (At least > lately. Maybe it was different 25 years ago.) > > Thanks for reading this ramble, > > -- Derek > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Mon Mar 8 08:22:08 1999 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: <199903081149.DAA13938@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Derek Peschel wrote: >- What kind of custom hardware (if any) will be used? >A PowerPC is a very nice chip, but dedicated chips can make >your life so much easier. Hardly anyone outside Amiga Inc knows anything about the hardware yet. I expect that more news will trickle out over the summer. The only information I have is that the whole thing is on one chip allowing performance equivalent to high-end systems. One of the many rumours doing the rounds at the moment is that it will use the "Emotion Engine" that will be at the heart of the PSX2. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen. This November (unless it is delayed) three new Amigas will go on sale: - The Developers Machine. This will be a standard x86 system bundled with the Siamese PCI (Amiga-on-a-card), a developers version of the OS and some kind of hardware simulator. This was originally due for release last November but a change in OS partner caused it to be delayed. - A Internet Box A low end system for the set-top market. - An A500-style machine Like the internet box this will be a low-end system to fill the original markets that the A500 and A1200 were aimed at. I have a unconfirmed source that the machine will be in a custom mini-tower with an external keyboard. However, until there is more news released your guess is as good as mine. > - I hope documentation is a priority. The early Amiga docs are > very good but they slipped in quality (and just at the time when > people needed to know the most, e.g., about the AGA hardware). There is some documentation on the AGA chipset on Aminet. The release of AmigaOS 3.5 around May should correct some of the problems regarding documentation. >- How about backward compatibility? Are they going >to >promise a lot? Can they deliver? Again, the example of >Apple sticks in my mind. They have said that compatibility will be high, all software that runs on AmigaOS 3.5 should run on the new machine. This could be achieved through software by either an optional emulation layer that or an emulator along the lines of UAE. There will be a version of the Siamese card available to run "Classic" Amiga software through hardware. Visit www.siamese.co.uk for more information on this. Another option will be the use of another operating system could AROS. As many list members will probably know, this has been in development for a number of years and is an attempt to produce a 100% portable AmigaOS-compatible. I have a reliable source that tells me Amiga Inc have been in talks with them to continue development. What direction this will take in the future though is impossible to guess. > Maybe it would be best to have one (or more) old Amigas. Definitely. I'm always on the lookout for cheap Amigas and they are very cheap. In the UK A1200's are sold around the £50 second-hand and I saw a A4000/030 retailing at £350. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig "Shine on your star" From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 08:19:44 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Mar 8, 99 08:58:13 am Message-ID: <199903081419.GAA02764@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Wang certainly used other components. Their big fixed disc drives are > the same as Honeywell, who also got them from someone else. As the So it's more Wang's software that was stubbornly individualistic, I guess. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 08:28:03 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: from "KNIGHT G.A" at Mar 8, 99 02:22:08 pm Message-ID: <199903081428.GAA32423@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Hardly anyone outside Amiga Inc knows anything about the > hardware yet. I expect that more news will trickle out over Oh. :) I was wondering if you had some sort of inside connection. Perhaps you're just an interested outsider. I've also heard that having two companies (Amiga Inc. and Amiga Corp., or whatever) has been very counterproductive. Have they sorted that out yet? > - The Developers Machine. > - A Internet Box > - An A500-style machine I think that's a good move. Wasn't there a similar developers' machine for the original Amiga? It seems to me that they're making development more public this time. The need for a development platform will probably disappear eventually, but it will be crucial to have some way of making the new system self-sufficient and pleasant to use. It would be a mistake to allow only big companies to develop for the new machine. The set-top box is novel. Correct me if I'm wrong; that hasn't been tried before (unless you count the CD32), right? -- Derek From jott at cerberus.ee.nd.edu Mon Mar 8 08:29:35 1999 From: jott at cerberus.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: HP 7475A Plotter In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990307202525.44df1f18@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 7, 99 08:25:25 pm Message-ID: <199903081429.JAA05773@cerberus.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Try Precision Data Products: 5036 Falcon View Kentwood, MI 49512 616/698-2242 I haven't ordered from them for awhile but they used to carry them. Cable: db9s db25s 1 4 2 2 3 3 4 5,6 5 7 6,8 20 7 8 mode com1:9600,n,8,1,p mode lpt1=com1: print fname Actually, if you use XON/XOFF hand shaking you probably only need pins 2, 3 and 7. plotter 2 transmit 3 receive 4 rts 5 cts 6 dsr 7 gnd 8 received line signal detector 17 external clock input 20 dtr 23 dsr john > > Hi Allen, Greetings from Orlando. > > At 11:09 AM 3/7/99 -0000, you wrote: > >Last year you sent out a request for info about HP7475A Plotter pens. > Like you, I am now trying to get one working. DId you find a source for > pens? > > There's tons of them advertised on E-bay. I've found piles of them at > hamfest and thift stores. > > Also, do you have any idea where I can get a plotter manual? > > HP probably still has them. > > Even xerox copies of the important pages would help. ALso, any idea what > cable is required. > > Depends on which interface you have on the computer and on the plotter. > > Joe > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From william at ans.net Mon Mar 8 08:31:20 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > What classic hardware/software companies were most famous for this? I've > learned (from Allison and Megan's various posts) that Digital sometimes used > other companies' stuff -- often at the cheap end of a line of products, I > suspect. What about IBM? Wang? Microsoft? I think you will find that near EVERY company has done this to some point. Example - IBM System/88s are actually Stratus machines. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 08:42:03 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Mar 8, 99 09:31:20 am Message-ID: <199903081442.GAA02024@saul7.u.washington.edu> > > What classic hardware/software companies were most famous for this? I've > > learned (from Allison and Megan's various posts) that Digital sometimes used > > other companies' stuff -- often at the cheap end of a line of products, I > > suspect. What about IBM? Wang? Microsoft? > > I think you will find that near EVERY company has done this to some point. > Example - IBM System/88s are actually Stratus machines. An interesting tidbit. IBM sells so much stuff that it would be hard for them to manufacture it all. :) Everyone's mentioning hardware. I was also wondering about software. The "buy a bunch of components and slap them together" approach is gaining in popularity these days, but I assume it's happened for a long time? There's also the "hire a (consultant, young intern, gang of students) to write the code" approach. I'm sure that happens a LOT. I guess what I'm wondering about is the difference between appearance and reality. -- Derek From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Mar 8 08:49:13 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... In-Reply-To: <01be6910$b69ba740$b8c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <4.1.19990308093208.00923830@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:06 PM 3/7/99 -0500, Mike said something like: >OK, here's a challenge that I hope one (or more) of you will rise too. I >found something I didn't even know existed. It's the Heathkit Memory I/O >Accessory ETA-3400. Woo Hoo!!! Its the expansion box for the 6800 based >ET-3400 Microprocessor Learning System (one of my favorite toys.) Now for >the good news, and too my dilema. It's still it kit form with all the >parts! ;))) I get to build it. I guess I'll need the assembly/op docs for >it. An external examination reveals rca jacks for 'tape input' and 'tape >output' and also a rs-232 port. I gotta get this thing up.... help! No problem Mike! ;) I've got my ETA-3400 packed away with the ET-3400 and a bunch of other docs. I built both from kits back in 1981/82. I'll have to dig around for the box (one of those *many* boxes we still need to go through after moving into this house a year ago.) Found two boxes I'd never opened from my last move into the old house 22 years ago! Contained good radio parts to keep though :) Anyway, I'll have to hunt for and pull out the ETA-3400 docs and find a way to make copies for you. May have to go to a commercial copy house and pay as I've not got a new job yet (which usually comes with a copier ;) Is that okay Mike? BTW, this was a really fun accessory to the ET-3400. Learned my first uP and some basic computing from the ET. Hence, my lean toward Motorola's uP families and away from the Intel types. IIRC, the ETA has Tiny Basic in ROM. I recall having fun lashing it up to my new, freshly-built H-19 terminal and later, my freshly-built H-8 computer via a terminal program (which I've long forgotten which) from the HUG. Those were the days! :-) :-) :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Mon Mar 8 09:00:23 1999 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: <199903081428.GAA32423@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Derek Peschel wrote: > Oh. :) I was wondering if you had some sort of inside connection. > Perhaps you're just an interested outsider. I nave had some contact with people from Amiga Inc over Usenet and get information from some of the Amiga journos but that is pretty much it. The problem is NDA's. They can't talk about much and what they do mention is in riddles. > I've also heard that having two companies (Amiga Inc. and Amiga Corp., > or whatever) has been very counterproductive. Have they sorted that out > yet? They've appointed a new manager and combined the two companies to a large extent. I can't remember his exact name at the moment. Check out www.amiga.com for the recent announcement. > > - The Developers Machine. > Wasn't there a similar developers' machine for the original Amiga? In a lot of cases Commodore shipped prototype machines to various maufacturers. I believe they used Sun systems to develop the original AmigaOS. > The set-top box is novel. Correct me if I'm wrong; that hasn't been tried > before (unless you count the CD32), right? Well, the CD32 was really aimed at the console market. The CDTV was aimed at what would become known as the set-top market but it was a few years too early. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig "Shine on your star" From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 8 08:54:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) Message-ID: <990308095425.202002ac@trailing-edge.com> >Yup, and there is a jumper buried over on the side that is labelled "RX01 >EN" (presumably to enable it as an RX01 controller). > >So I think we've got it nailed as an RX01/RX02 controller, which is cool >since I've got an RX01 drive, but those are 8" drives and the connector is >only 26 pins. It's a bus adapter that's part of a system that *emulates* a RX01 or RX02 controller. It doesn't actually drive a RX01/02 (40-pin connector), nor does it directly drive a Shugart 801-style drive (50-pin connector). What you need is a DSD440 chassis, which has a rather smart Z80-based board in it that converts from the DSD 26-pin connector to the Shugart 50-pin bus. There were also bus adapters for the Unibus and Omnibus available. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 08:59:35 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: IIRC Message-ID: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Ok, this is bugging me so I'm going to finally ask.... I know what most of the standard abbreviations are (AFAIK, IMHO, BTW, etc...) What is IIRC?????? :) Jay West From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 8 09:07:49 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Mar 8, 99 08:59:35 am Message-ID: <199903081507.HAA10028@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 615 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/d9c5dba6/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Mar 8 09:06:20 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990308100342.009e8db0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:59 AM 3/8/99 -0600, Jay West said something like: >Ok, this is bugging me so I'm going to finally ask.... > >I know what most of the standard abbreviations are (AFAIK, IMHO, BTW, >etc...) > >What is IIRC?????? :) Well Jay, IIRC, it means "If I Recall Correctly" :-) TTYL . BR, CRF -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 8 09:10:04 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <01be6975$beec4d40$e4c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt >No problem Mike! ;) Alright Christian, schwing! >I've got my ETA-3400 packed away with the ET-3400 and a bunch of other >docs. I built both from kits back in 1981/82. I'll have to dig around for >the box (one of those *many* boxes we still need to go through after moving >into this house a year ago.) Found two boxes I'd never opened from my last >move into the old house 22 years ago! Contained good radio parts to keep >though :) > >Anyway, I'll have to hunt for and pull out the ETA-3400 docs and find a way >to make copies for you. May have to go to a commercial copy house and pay >as I've not got a new job yet (which usually comes with a copier ;) Is >that okay Mike? Any convenient way for you is fine with me. (Hurry! ;) ) >BTW, this was a really fun accessory to the ET-3400. Learned my first uP >and some basic computing from the ET. Hence, my lean toward Motorola's uP >families and away from the Intel types. > >IIRC, the ETA has Tiny Basic in ROM. I recall having fun lashing it up to >my new, freshly-built H-19 terminal and later, my freshly-built H-8 >computer via a terminal program (which I've long forgotten which) from the >HUG. Those were the days! :-) :-) :-) Cool, TB too... truely a magical little box. (My H8 and H19 is sitting on the sidelines waiting to talk to their brother...) In the mean time, I'll go back and dig in the old Remarks and see if I can find anything more on it >Regards, Chris Thanks! - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 8 09:21:54 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) Message-ID: <19990308152154.26471.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> > It's a bus adapter that's part of a system that > *emulates* a RX01 or RX02 controller. It doesn't > actually drive a RX01/02 (40-pin connector), nor does > it directly drive a Shugart 801-style drive (50-pin > connector). What you need is a DSD440 chassis, > which has a rather smart Z80-based board in it that > converts from the DSD 26-pin connector to the Shugart > 50-pin bus. Ooh... I think I have one of these with a Unibus adapter. I'll have to dig it out and open it up. IIRC, the DSD drives _can_ format floppies. > There were also bus adapters for the Unibus and > Omnibus available. I'd love to find an Omnibus module for it. Didn't know it existed. -ethan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 8 09:29:24 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) Message-ID: <990308102924.202002ac@trailing-edge.com> >IIRC, the DSD drives _can_ format floppies. Absolutely, in both RX01 and RX02 modes. If you have the DSD-440 hooked to your PDP-11, you can just boot the utility floppy that came with the DSD-440 and it gives a menu letting you select from several different diagnostics and format utilities. You don't even need a computer hooked to the drive to do it - you just set the hyperdiagnostic DIPswitch pack on the in-box controller to format the floppies, and let it rip. Never, ever, lose the hyperdiagnostics section of your DSD440 manual! Every DSD440 box I have (gees, there must be 9 or 10 now) has a Xerox of the DSD440 hyperdiagonstics pocket ref taped to the top cover :-). >> There were also bus adapters for the Unibus and >> Omnibus available. >I'd love to find an Omnibus module for it. Didn't >know it existed. It's a quad-size card marked "DSD 2131". There's a complete schematic of the interface on page A-20 of your DSD 440 User Guide. Looks to be maybe $15 in TTL chips. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 8 10:08:11 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > What classic hardware/software companies were most famous for this? I've > learned (from Allison and Megan's various posts) that Digital sometimes used > other companies' stuff -- often at the cheap end of a line of products, I > suspect. What about IBM? Wang? Microsoft? Well gee, a couple of quick ones that come to mind: The infamous (howling bell / Darth Vader) black Apple ][ rebadged by Bell & Howell and I've got an early Racal Vadic high speed modem rebadged by HP -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 8 10:11:47 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) Message-ID: <19990308161147.14483.rocketmail@web610.yahoomail.com> I wrote: > >IIRC, the DSD drives _can_ format floppies. > Tim Shoppa replied: > Absolutely, in both RX01 and RX02 modes. > If you have the DSD-440 hooked to your PDP-11, you > can just boot the utility floppy that came with the > DSD-440... You presume much. I got this box from Ohio State in two racks of PDP-11 hardware about ten years ago. I did get a lot of software, but I don't recall a DSD disk. > You don't even need a computer hooked to the drive > to do it - you just set the hyperdiagnostic > DIPswitch pack on the in-box controller to format the > floppies, and let it rip. Cool. I may need this in the future, but for now, I've got several boxes of real RX02K's, new, that I got from a guy who used to have a whole pallet of various disks from various vendors. Before anyone asks, he's out of business, I got the disks in 1991, and there were only two shipping boxes of RX02K's. With all the eOverpay frenzy for nominally valueless classic stuff, I wish I had asked for a box of the hard-sectored floppies he had. > Never, ever, lose the hyperdiagnostics section of > your DSD440 manual! I can't lose what I never had. Want to help me not lose it by sending me a copy? I will, of course, pay shipping and copying charges. > Every DSD440 box I have (gees, there must be 9 or 10 > now) has a Xerox of the DSD440 hyperdiagonstics > pocket ref taped to the top cover :-). That sounds like a doc worthy of scanning and/or retyping for future generations of collectors. If I had a copy, I'd do it myself (hint ;-). > >> There were also bus adapters for the Unibus and > >> Omnibus available. > > It's a quad-size card marked "DSD 2131". There's a > complete schematic of the interface on page A-20 of > your DSD 440 User Guide. Looks to be maybe $15 in > TTL chips. Most excellent. I happen to have a quad DEC prototype wire-wrap board. This might make an good use of it (if I don't stick something like a 32K SRAM and SCSI or IDE port on that board first). Thanks for all the good info. -ethan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 8 10:12:33 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081442.GAA02024@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Everyone's mentioning hardware. I was also wondering about software. The > "buy a bunch of components and slap them together" approach is gaining in > popularity these days, but I assume it's happened for a long time? There's > also the "hire a (consultant, young intern, gang of students) to write the > code" approach. I'm sure that happens a LOT. I was wondering when someone might start down this path. There are also a lot of 'contract houses' out there who are paid quite well to not be known, that write the software for a number of the big names in the business. One of the more prolific that I am aware of (having worked there for a while) was (is?) 'Control-C SOftware'. (Andrew Johnson-Laird and associates) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 10:18:49 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Mar 8, 99 08:59:35 am Message-ID: <199903081618.IAA15516@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/8e05ffde/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 10:33:23 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Mar 8, 99 08:12:33 am Message-ID: <199903081633.IAA12998@saul6.u.washington.edu> > > Everyone's mentioning hardware. I was also wondering about software. The > > "buy a bunch of components and slap them together" approach is gaining in > > popularity these days, but I assume it's happened for a long time? There's > > also the "hire a (consultant, young intern, gang of students) to write the > > code" approach. I'm sure that happens a LOT. > > I was wondering when someone might start down this path. There are also a > lot of 'contract houses' out there who are paid quite well to not be > known, that write the software for a number of the big names in the > business. A bit like ghostwriters. I think that worrying about software "rebadging" is perfectly logical! After all, it seems to me that hardware is relatively straightforward. If it's cheap/shoddy/dangerous, you can almost always tell. (There are a few mysterious ASICs, or some lines aren't connected, or your power supply has just caught fire, or whatever.) With software, on the other hand, you may have no _idea_ what kind of gruesome code is running. As long as it gives the appearance of working, most people are happy. Except the wretch who has to maintain it, of course. > One of the more prolific that I am aware of (having worked there for a > while) was (is?) 'Control-C SOftware'. (Andrew Johnson-Laird and > associates) I may have run into that name recently, but it could have been Control-G Software. Still looking for a sense of "how deceptive/messy is (was) the industry?" -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 10:56:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > I know that Company A would take one of Company B's products and stick a > "Company A" label on it... that's what most people mean when they say > "rebadging", I think. It's pretty easy to spot, if you can find one of > Company B's products for sale. > > What classic hardware/software companies were most famous for this? I've > learned (from Allison and Megan's various posts) that Digital sometimes used > other companies' stuff -- often at the cheap end of a line of products, I > suspect. What about IBM? Wang? Microsoft? Its mostly specialized peripherals that were OEM'd (or re-badged) like printers and modems. IBM OEM'd their Proprinter from Epson for instance. VTech (or Video Technology) manufactured many different computers that showed up under other company's names. The Altair (and many other S-100 boxes, especially Compupro) was integrated into specialized industrial control applications. A perfect example is a MITS box selling on eBay right now as a Sherwood Medical blood analysis machine. Thousands of Compupro boxes are still in operation today, but you wouldn't know it because they are integrated into a complete system sold under a different company's name. I recently found a Rockwell AIM-65 that was sold as some sort of controller. Lots of the early single-board computers made their way into industrial control applications as well. I remember reading an article about a guy who took Radio Shack M100's and used them to control washing machines in heavy duty landromats. So there are many, many examples. > And that ties into the other reason I made this post. What does the > computer industry look like from the companies' perspective? What sorts of > nasty deals have gone on in back rooms? Big companies love to use terms > like "OEM" or "supplier" but that doesn't even scratch the surface of a > complex web of relationships. Its all about making money. A lot of companies don't see a need to re-invent the wheel. They integrate whatever is already out there and make a lot of money. Others, like Apple, refuse to use even basic elements that already exist, like the disk drive, which is whey they went through the trouble of designing the Tiwggy drives that went into the first Lisa that were so unreliable. Ever heard of NIH? Not Invented Here? Apple is the leader in NIH. Meaning if its not invented here its CRAP!! A lot of times one company will put out a design spec for manufacturers to bid upon. This is usually the case when the company does not have the manufacturing or R&D facilities to design such-n-such themselves, and/or don't want to put the resources into doing it because its not in their business plan to be a manufacturer or R&D lab. Another interesting example is Morrow. In the mid-80's the IRS put out an RFP (Request For Proposal) for a portable computer for their field agents. Morrow designed the Pivot Portable (which I believe I learned not too long ago was actually designed by yet another firm) and bid the contract themselves, but also licensed the design to Zenith who eventually won the contract. Go figure. > Then there's the even more intricate question of the *information* behind > all of the energy (i.e., the source code, algorithms, proprietary > techniques). Sometimes a high enough price will buy it; sometimes it isn't > available for any price... wierd. Its all specific to the deal struck between the companies involved. Some want it all, others just want the end product. > I'll save the question about the quality of the finished product for next > itme. :) Besides, I already think I know the answer: often the quality is > the last priority on the list, and the customer gets the shaft. (At least > lately. Maybe it was different 25 years ago.) That's not true. If a company like IBM, for instance, OEM's a printer and sells it with their name on it that turns out to be a piece of shit, who do you think gets the bad press, the name on the badge or the company that built it? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 11:00:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Apple //c In-Reply-To: <002f01be6962$133674c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Francois wrote: > I just got a //c over the Week End, > It came with what looks like a sound system: the item is in a separate > enclosure with what looks like a speaker and a volume knob. It's labelled > "cricket". Does anyone on the list have any infor on this item? Power > requirement, software that uses it etc... Its a speech synthesizer speaker box. Unless a Cricket card was made that could be installed inside the //c (I'm not aware of such a thing although I won't rule it out) then this box probably went with something like a //e that did have the speech synthesizer card in it. Er, wait a second, I'm thinking of something different. I do remember reading articles in mid-80s Apple magazines that were advertising the Cricket. It may very well have been for the //c. Try posting this message on comp.sys.apple2. Somewhere there should be able to help you more than this message. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From Joel at VirtualAdmin.com Mon Mar 8 10:47:14 1999 From: Joel at VirtualAdmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: HP85 Available Message-ID: Hi Marvin, Is it still available? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:17 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: HP85 Available This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Mail Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set. From bill at chipware.com Mon Mar 8 11:10:27 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <000601be6986$9011eaa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Since Sellam just made mention of an ebay item, I hope it's OK to mention another. Did anyone else notice that, in the pictures of one of the other Altairs for sale, there are _TWO_MORE_ visible in the background? God, you would think the people bidding on these things would get a clue... THEY AREN'T THAT RARE! Bill Sudbrink From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 11:13:20 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 8, 99 08:56:31 am Message-ID: <199903081713.JAA15981@saul6.u.washington.edu> Sellam wrote: > On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Its mostly specialized peripherals that were OEM'd (or re-badged) > like printers and modems. IBM OEM'd their Proprinter from Epson for > instance. VTech (or Video Technology) manufactured many different > computers that showed up under other company's names. There have been a couple of other sub-threads; in one of them I pointed out that I was also discussing software. > > And that ties into the other reason I made this post. What does the > > computer industry look like from the companies' perspective? What sorts of > > nasty deals have gone on in back rooms? Big companies love to use terms > > like "OEM" or "supplier" but that doesn't even scratch the surface of a > > complex web of relationships. Hmm, you don't know who designs TI's calculators? (You skipped that part.) That's too bad; I was hoping you would. > Its all about making money. A lot of companies don't see a need to > re-invent the wheel. They integrate whatever is already out there and > make a lot of money. Others, like Apple, refuse to use even basic > elements that already exist, like the disk drive, which is whey they went > through the trouble of designing the Tiwggy drives that went into the > first Lisa that were so unreliable. Ever heard of NIH? Not Invented > Here? Apple is the leader in NIH. Meaning if its not invented here its > CRAP!! Yes, I know what NIH is. Someone coined the term "NCH" (Not Controlled Here) recently, but that was specifically meant to apply to Microsoft. I figured it would be about money (it usually is), but that doesn't explain how the credit (or blame or responsibility) gets shifted around. > > Then there's the even more intricate question of the *information* behind > > all of the energy (i.e., the source code, algorithms, proprietary > > techniques). Sometimes a high enough price will buy it; sometimes it isn't > > available for any price... wierd. > > Its all specific to the deal struck between the companies involved. Some > want it all, others just want the end product. Well, here I was confusing two different things -- the specific issue of rebadging and OEM deals, and the general issue of how different companies run their affairs. > > I'll save the question about the quality of the finished product for next > > itme. :) Besides, I already think I know the answer: often the quality is > > the last priority on the list, and the customer gets the shaft. (At least > > lately. Maybe it was different 25 years ago.) > That's not true. If a company like IBM, for instance, OEM's a printer and > sells it with their name on it that turns out to be a piece of shit, who > do you think gets the bad press, the name on the badge or the company that > built it? Again, I was thinking of software here. Yes, generally the name on the badge gets the bad credit. But how come IBM keeps selling Proprinters, then? (Well, OK, maybe they're not still selling them. But I never saw an article saying, "IBM CHAIRMAN PUBLICLY REPENTS FOR THE PROPRINTER".) You mentioned that they were OEM'd, and *I* believe they are a piece of shit. They're great at jamming paper, anyway, and it's a pain to retrieve the little crumpled-up sprocketwads that caused the jam. I still think I disagree with you. (I'm not exactly sure what "That's not true" means.) This sort of deal can easily create a situation of a company selling crap with a straight fance. OK, so there are *other* ways to create the same situation (like, the company is a bunch of arrogant idiots). -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 11:15:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081442.GAA02024@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > I guess what I'm wondering about is the difference between appearance and > reality. Its all an illusion Derek. Me, this list, the computer you're tryping on, even you! You're really a fabulously wealthy bachelor living on your own island in the Azores surrounded by beautiful and exotic women, and you control the fortunes of nations with the money you trade around on a daily basis. You just THINK you're a college nerd trying to earn a degree. Snap out of it! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 11:21:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jay West wrote: > Ok, this is bugging me so I'm going to finally ask.... > > I know what most of the standard abbreviations are (AFAIK, IMHO, BTW, > etc...) > > What is IIRC?????? :) I Insist Ranting Crazily. No, I'm just kidding, it really stands for Insane Ibex's Roaming the Country. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 8 11:30:04 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 8, 99 09:21:56 am Message-ID: <199903081730.JAA11988@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 557 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/24b9c7e0/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 8 11:26:43 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Doors anyone? (was DSD board) Message-ID: <990308122643.202002ac@trailing-edge.com> >> If you have the DSD-440 hooked to your PDP-11, you >> can just boot the utility floppy that came with the >> DSD-440... >You presume much. I got this box from Ohio State in >two racks of PDP-11 hardware about ten years ago. I >did get a lot of software, but I don't recall a DSD >disk. Seeing as how all DSD units shipped with a DSD diagnostics disk in the first place, I don't think anyone would complain if I offered "replacement" floppies for the cost of postage. The diagnostics disk that came with my DSD440 actually works with many other DSD floppy models, too. >> Never, ever, lose the hyperdiagnostics section of >> your DSD440 manual! >I can't lose what I never had. Want to help me not >lose it by sending me a copy? I will, of course, pay >shipping and copying charges. Sounds like a fair deal! Anyone else interested, let me (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) know and I'll run off some copies and get the total costs estimated. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 11:34:19 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 8, 99 09:15:05 am Message-ID: <199903081734.JAA28362@saul5.u.washington.edu> > > I guess what I'm wondering about is the difference between appearance and > > reality. > > Its all an illusion Derek. Me, this list, the computer you're tryping on, > even you! You're really a fabulously wealthy bachelor living on your own > island in the Azores surrounded by beautiful and exotic women, and you > control the fortunes of nations with the money you trade around on a daily > basis. You just THINK you're a college nerd trying to earn a degree. > Snap out of it! It's especially an illusion when I post messages at 2:00 in the morning. :) Now home come I can't use some of my vast fortunes? -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 11:35:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <000601be6986$9011eaa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Since Sellam just made mention of an ebay item, > I hope it's OK to mention another. Did anyone > else notice that, in the pictures of one of the > other Altairs for sale, there are _TWO_MORE_ > visible in the background? God, you would think > the people bidding on these things would get a > clue... THEY AREN'T THAT RARE! Preach it like it is, Brother Bill!! How "rare" can something be when an instance of it goes up for auction every damn week!? Doug Yowza noted that there is one Altair or another on sale at ebay every day! This is insanity!! ;o) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 11:39:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081713.JAA15981@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Hmm, you don't know who designs TI's calculators? (You skipped that part.) > That's too bad; I was hoping you would. I don't know. Open one up and see if it has any other manufacturer's marks on it. > I figured it would be about money (it usually is), but that doesn't explain > how the credit (or blame or responsibility) gets shifted around. Remembe this rule always: Shit flows downhill. > Yes, generally the name on the badge gets the bad credit. But how come IBM > keeps selling Proprinters, then? (Well, OK, maybe they're not still selling > them. But I never saw an article saying, "IBM CHAIRMAN PUBLICLY REPENTS FOR > THE PROPRINTER".) You mentioned that they were OEM'd, and *I* believe they > are a piece of shit. They're great at jamming paper, anyway, and it's a > pain to retrieve the little crumpled-up sprocketwads that caused the jam. Yeah, I distinctly remember at least one instance where I was digging around in a printer to remove the paper droppings, but for the most part they worked well. > I still think I disagree with you. (I'm not exactly sure what "That's not > true" means.) This sort of deal can easily create a situation of a company > selling crap with a straight fance. Well, sure. But its not like that's the case with every instance of an OEM deal. Usually a company OEMs another company's stuff because the other company's stuff is proven reliable and is better than anything the first company could build. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 11:51:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: DEC: Plotters (HP), laser printers (Xerox, Rich and cannon) Some low end printers (LA50 TEI, LA75 TEI), Gennicom and Data products line printers, PCs from olivetti and Tandy and that's the tip of the iceberg. DEC sold an immense breadth pf product and as a consequence they could not make it all. It's not uncommon. Allison From spc at armigeron.com Mon Mar 8 11:41:45 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 8, 99 08:56:31 am Message-ID: <199903081743.MAA06603@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1455 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/1a52693b/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 11:52:06 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <00ce01be698c$61ae3fa0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Sallam wrote... >How "rare" can something be when an instance of it goes up for auction >every damn week!? Doug Yowza noted that there is one Altair or another on >sale at ebay every day! > >This is insanity!! I, for one, am glad when people mention an item of interest on Ebay. I don't check ebay regularly. As a result, I *LIKE* being told if an item I'm looking for goes up there. That being said, I really like it when someone offers the item here first before it goes to Escr*w... :) However, I really wish an HP 2748 paper tape reader would go up on ebay :] Jay West From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 8 11:56:12 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:50 2005 Subject: Capacitor xref help please! (TU56) In-Reply-To: <000901be68b7$29909e40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <199903081756.JAA20268@civic.hal.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Got a bad cap in a TU56 drive. Markings are as follows: > > 7330L, SPRAGUE, 100MFD, 55V-60CY, A5030. > > Can anyone tell me where I can order a replacement that's both electrically > and mechanically (size) the same? > > More importantly, I've been scrounging the net for this info. Is there a > good online resource I'm missing for xrefing caps? > > Thanks! > > Jay West Hi Jay This does sound like a motor capacitor. You won't find these in an electronic catalog like digikey. You need to check with a motor shop. Look in the phone book for motor repair. They usually have catalogs with these AC type electrolytics. Don't used a standard one unless you like to dodge flying aluminum pieces. You don't have to match exactly. A 120MFD 75V-60CY would work as well. Dwight From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 8 11:59:01 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: HP 7475A Plotter In-Reply-To: <001d01be6891$561de920$dcd84d0c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: > Last year you sent out a request for info about HP7475A Plotter >pens. Like you, I am now trying to get one working. DId you find a >source for pens? I found a pack of pens in with some unrelated items I have, still in the HP sealed inflated "bag". HP brand, for paper plots, fiber-Tip paper plotter pens, contents 5 orange plotter pens with narrow line width, designed specifically for: HP plotters. 0.3 mm, reorder number 17839P, water based. $5 and I will stick the bag in a bubble envelope and mail it to you. Also Allelec.com (All Tech electronics in Santa Ana) carries the same item for $5.95 in their store, no idea what shipping etc. is, but they have more than just orange. ;) From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 8 12:05:37 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: I'm back (sort-of)... Message-ID: <36E41171.C6113B58@wfi-inc.com> Hello all, After being buried under an avalanche of work, I've tried to catch up and resurface. 2672 messages in my classiccmp box this morning... Sorry to have disappeared on the couple of pending transactions, so if I was going to send you money or free garba^H^H^H^H^H^H collectables, please email me at my regular email address (A_Finney@wfi-inc.com). Some great messages in the whole pile, I just wish I'd gotten to them sooner to join in. And damn it, I missed bidding on that 21 year old computer (does 6' tall and 175lbs count as big iron?). I would have had him paint my house and then sold him by the pound for dog food... Good to be back, Aaron From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 8 12:07:18 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <000601be6986$9011eaa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: >Since Sellam just made mention of an ebay item, >I hope it's OK to mention another. Did anyone >else notice that, in the pictures of one of the >other Altairs for sale, there are _TWO_MORE_ >visible in the background? God, you would think >the people bidding on these things would get a >clue... THEY AREN'T THAT RARE! Anything I don't have that I want I consider rare. ;) I prefer medium rare (I have one and you don't ;) From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 8 12:09:58 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <199903081730.JAA11988@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from Message-ID: >::No, I'm just kidding, it really stands for Insane Ibex's Roaming the >::Country. > >Dang, and just when I got those freaking antelopes out of my yard. Nothing worse than antelopes in the cantelopes. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Mar 8 12:11:29 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: HP 7475A Plotter In-Reply-To: "Mindy Fuchs"'s message of Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:09:50 -0000 References: <001d01be6891$561de920$dcd84d0c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <199903081811.KAA13183@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Allen Rose, writing as "Mindy Fuchs" wrote: > Last year you sent out a request for info about HP7475A Plotter > pens. Like you, I am now trying to get one working. DId you find a > source for pens? Also, do you have any idea where I can get a > plotter manual? Even xerox copies of the important pages would > help. ALso, any idea what cable is required. Thanks. As other folks have written, the pens come up on ebay sometimes. They might be OK -- HP sold them with expiration dates and I don't really know how well they keep, although (a) back in the 1980s we didn't pay much mind to the expiration date on the package and had no cause to regret it and (b) a friend who has purchased pens via ebay has said that at least some of them were OK. The pens do dry out if left in the plotter though, even if they are capped by the plotter or the pen carousel. I would not expect pens to work unless they are in sealed packages. HP no longer sells pens. Last time I looked their web site referred users to Koh-i-noor for pens and ink, and I think I managed to work out that Koh-i-noor had refillable ink pens as well as new felt-tip pens. The 7475A is tricky and you may need more than pinouts for its port, because if it's an RS-232 flavor, the DIP switches let you tell it whether to behave like a terminal device or as an eavesdropper on an existing terminal device's connection. To use it from a PC based application you probably want the former; the latter is useful for host-based graphics applications that are accessed from a terminal but know of the existence of the eavesdropping plotter. -Frank McConnell From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 8 12:57:13 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: References: <000601be6986$9011eaa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990308105118.00a11770@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:35 AM 3/8/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >How "rare" can something be when an instance of it goes up for auction >every damn week!? Doug Yowza noted that there is one Altair or another on >sale at ebay every day! This is the point isn't it? Finding an Altair at a garage sale or swap meeting in Bloomington Indiana would be like finding the Holy Grail in a pawn shop, not friggin likely. But when you expand the garage sale to cover the whole freakin planet the chances go up to about 1.0. Added to that is that while only about 130 to 200M of us are actually online, given the natural connectivity of the human race we probably have access to the garages of more than 40% of the developed nations. That sort of re-defines rare in a different way, and after the orgasmic frenzy has passed of finding things that used to be incredibly hard to find in your local neighborhood, expectations will get reset and the market will rationalize and the so called "bottom" will drop out of Altair prices. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 8 13:12:58 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990308110641.00ab0220@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> My own recent experience with this has been the Sigma RQ11 ESDI controller. Through various comments here and on the net I tracked down Webster Computer in Los Gatos who had a controller called the WQESD controller and it too ran an on-board executive called WOMBAT. I talked to David Webster and he said that both the Sigma controller and the Qualogy controller were both licensed from Webster and were substantially similar. I ordered a copy of the manual from him and it arrived on Friday. I must say they are darn near identical to the Sigma controller and the Qualogy controller (I've got one of each it turns out) In "modern" times I've experienced rabadging in the 3D accellerator market where everyone who makes a "Voodoo2" based 3D accellerator essentially uses the 3DFX reference design. Consequently they all pretty much perform the same. Rebadging was more prevalent earlier when everything had to appear to come from the same company, but these days it is accepted that pieces come from here and there. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 8 13:14:19 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: References: <199903081428.GAA32423@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990308131419.010ef100@vpwisfirewall> At 03:00 PM 3/8/99 +0000, Gareth Knight wrote: > >In a lot of cases Commodore shipped prototype machines to >various maufacturers. I believe they used Sun systems to >develop the original AmigaOS. They used Stratus 68000 boxes in the very early days. I remember that; I don't remember the use of Suns quite as well. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 8 13:01:15 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990307162334.00a46a20@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990308130115.00ff4be0@vpwisfirewall> At 04:28 PM 3/7/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >>Couldn't these auctions also be run on the ccauction list that Doug >> hosts on nut.net ? > >Chuck, I have to object to your objection. I think what Anthony is doing >is quite admirable. Yes, according to the recent ruling, gloating over ownership of cool gizmos is only appropriate *after* the acquisition - not before! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 8 13:09:38 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081442.GAA02024@saul7.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990308130938.010e8a40@vpwisfirewall> Sometime last year, I saw an interesting example of a rebadged Nicolet data acquisition floppy drive system, made circa late 70s. The outside was a Nicolet box with its logo, buttons, etc. Inside was another company's box - intact, in toto. Its buttons and power supply sockets, etc. were simply extended to the Nicolet box. - John From ai705 at osfn.org Mon Mar 8 13:17:14 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308105118.00a11770@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > That sort of re-defines rare in a different way, and after the orgasmic > frenzy has passed of finding things that used to be incredibly hard to find > in your local neighborhood, expectations will get reset and the market will > rationalize and the so called "bottom" will drop out of Altair prices. > It is also the economy and it is more than a trivial contributor. How many solid years of growth since 1983 or so? You end up with a lot of money chasing goods like these. Indeed, perhaps if the y2K bug causes a global recession/depression, then maybe the old computers will have the last "laugh". I expect there will be a correction, regardless of cause, in old computer prices. The Altairs and similar probably have a floor under them of several hundred dollars, but there will be many items that will see the dumpster once again. I just picked up a SABA OCR "mouse" for $10 plus shipping. A sort of cross between a mouse and a tablet hockey puck with a window and cross hairs to pull a line of text. Mouse, ISA card, manual and all software. Unique and unloved items will always be available to be nabbed. -- Stephen Dauphin From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 8 13:30:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <990308143015.202002e7@trailing-edge.com> >This is the point isn't it? Finding an Altair at a garage sale or swap >meeting in Bloomington Indiana would be like finding the Holy Grail in a >pawn shop, not friggin likely. Really? I managed to scavenge up a half-dozen IMSAI'S and almost as many Altairs in a couple of years in Southern California in the early 90's. Then again, I didn't just scout around at garage sales - I hooked up with the owners through local clubs, business associates, etc. Or I frequented places that do industrial-type surplus. I wasn't particularly targetting IMSAI's and Altair's, these acquisitions came about mainly in the course of looking for other stuff. There's a few lessons here, I think: 1. Never define what you're looking for too narrowly. There's lots of interesting stuff to play with out there - you don't need any particular brand/model/serial number of computer to enjoy them. 2. Be willing to call or visit anywhere in a 50-mile radius at a moment's notice. 3. Be dedicated, don't give up, and get lucky :-) I honestly don't think anyone can complain that there aren't interesting things out there to collect. In the past decade, I probably averaged 8000-10000 pounds of stuff a year (then again, I'm mainly interested in minis and industrial controllers.) Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 8 13:36:02 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? Message-ID: <990308143602.202002e7@trailing-edge.com> >Rebadging was more prevalent earlier when everything had to appear to come >from the same company, but these days it is accepted that pieces come from >here and there. Since the advent of the PC-clone industry, it is accepted that lots of hardware items are "no-name", with no indication of who manufactured it, where it was manufactured, and usually minimal or zero documentation about the product. (OK, some of this no-name stuff predates the PC-clone industry. Apple ][ clones in the Lasnerian mid-80's are also examples that comes to mind.) Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 8 14:00:49 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990308130938.010e8a40@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: I have an old plotter (very elegant, with wooden sides like an OSI) that is badged both Nicolet, and Tymshare. Unfortunately, the cogged rubber drive belts have decayed to the point where it can no longer function. I WAS thinking of trying to locate a source to replace the belts, but now I think that I should probably find somebody with more interest in it. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 14:11:35 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Mon, 8 Mar 1999 01:43:27 -0800) References: <"l03130303b308ca2cea0a(a)(091)208.141.153.38(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <19990308201135.13506.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Ebay has a check box when you submit a auction listing to make it private > auction (which I assume means you use the eBay hardware for bidding, but > your ad doesn't show up on eBay searches etc.). No, it just means that the bidders' identities are not revealed. That's so that when you bid on "adult" items, your cow-orkers won't notice and make fun of you. Or something to that effect. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 14:13:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Mon, 8 Mar 1999 02:03:58 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990308201301.13513.qmail@brouhaha.com> Derek Peschel wrote: > Every time I look at TI's calculator web site, I see that they state their > calculators' features in terms of "bid specifications". Now I find that > creepy, personally. I always thought that TI didn't care very much about > its calculators (anyone see any vintage TI calculators to go with the fine > HP machines at the last VCF?). But if TI puts bids out, then they care even > less than I thought. Unless they have some perverse internal bid system? No, that's TI bidding the calculators to school districts. Obviously they have to build what their customers want. From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 8 14:14:07 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903082014.MAA20287@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > I have an old plotter (very elegant, with wooden sides like an OSI) that > is badged both Nicolet, and Tymshare. Unfortunately, the cogged rubber > drive belts have decayed to the point where it can no longer function. > > I WAS thinking of trying to locate a source to replace the belts, but now > I think that I should probably find somebody with more interest in it. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 Hi There is a place in Santa Clara called Motion Industries. They can supply the cogged belts used in these machines. As fare as I know, these are standard replacement items. You'll need to tell them the pitch, length and width of the belt. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 12:20:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: ASR 33 manuals In-Reply-To: <19990308043050.24280@firepower> from "Sergey Svishchev" at Mar 8, 99 04:30:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 774 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/7e15ceee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 12:26:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903080618.BAA26743@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 8, 99 01:17:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/e65d7436/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 12:28:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: The TI 34010 In-Reply-To: <199903080621.BAA26766@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 8, 99 01:19:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1201 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/7b1c8b08/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 12:31:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990308092920.39f7e0e6@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 8, 99 09:29:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/554f6bb1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 12:59:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Capacitor xref help please! (TU56) In-Reply-To: <199903081756.JAA20268@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 8, 99 09:56:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/c9c07e6f/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 14:43:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > I expect there will be a correction, regardless of cause, in old computer > prices. The Altairs and similar probably have a floor under them of > several hundred dollars, but there will be many items that will see the > dumpster once again. I gather from many conversations I've had that many people buying the Altairs see them as historic becaiuse of their connection to Microsoft. Some think that it marked the beginning of the microcomputer revolution because it launched the career of Gates. What these foolish speculators fail to realize is that the game is not yet won, and they are leaving the arena at halftime thinking their investment is secure. History will place a very different value on their Altair because of what Linux will do to Microsoft, far less than the tens of thousands that I imagine some people think they may be worth some day. > Unique and unloved items will always be available to be nabbed. Those are the best finds. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From thompson at athenet.net Mon Mar 8 14:36:25 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another notable or expensive example was the large DEC TA90e autoloader tape subsystem used in VAXclusters in years past. The Digital sticker could be peeled off revealing it to be an IBM 3480. Paul On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > DEC: Plotters (HP), laser printers (Xerox, Rich and cannon) Some low > end printers (LA50 TEI, LA75 TEI), Gennicom and Data products line > printers, PCs from olivetti and Tandy and that's the tip of the iceberg. > DEC sold an immense breadth pf product and as a consequence they could > not make it all. > > It's not uncommon. > > Allison > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 14:45:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990308130938.010e8a40@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > Sometime last year, I saw an interesting example of a rebadged > Nicolet data acquisition floppy drive system, made circa late 70s. > > The outside was a Nicolet box with its logo, buttons, etc. Inside > was another company's box - intact, in toto. Its buttons and power > supply sockets, etc. were simply extended to the Nicolet box. Nicolet seemed to rebadge a lot of stuff. Even the processor seems to be built by Bruker Data Systems. In fact, in the Nicolet manual, you can clearly see the Bruker name and logo on the front of the CPU, yet Nicolet calls it a Model 1080. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From normans at escape.com Mon Mar 8 09:05:23 1999 From: normans at escape.com (normans@escape.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: help Message-ID: From msg at computerpro.com Mon Mar 8 14:45:47 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: HP-85 belts/Capstan repair Message-ID: <36E436FB.DE10F7DB@computerpro.com> Greetings to all: Since I've been absent for about a week, 800 messages have piled-up from the list; reviewing them will take awhile so I'm posting this to report on the HP-85 belt/capstan issues status globally. The belts have arrived and are being mailed-out early this week. I installed a set in our HP-85 and they work well. I tried a new approach to capstan repair which I find works very well. Clean the capstan of old rubber down to a minimal amount of residue with isopropyl. Obtain a can of dipping vinyl (for coating tool handles, etc.); most hardware stores should have it. Remove the capstan/encoder wheel ass'y from the motor shaft. Prepare the vinyl properly according to directions with the product. Dip the capstan (inverted) at the rate of about 5 seconds for its length, being careful to just dip just above the bottom rim of the capstan wheel so that the vinyl creates an overlap of 90 degrees. Withdraw the part at the same rate as insertion. Immediately invert the part and place on a level surface in a warm place to dry for four hours. During the drying time you will note that any vertical asymmetry evens out. Repeat with another dip and 4 hour dry. The results were very good and tests with an old tape containing an 84 record program produced no errors (reading or writing). Attached is a small jpg which gives an idea of the appearance of the results (max mag. avail with the camera lens). Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CAPSTAN2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 6337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/4c43fdd0/CAPSTAN2.jpe From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 14:58:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: <199903081428.GAA32423@saul7.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Mon, 8 Mar 1999 06:28:03 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903081428.GAA32423@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990308205859.13908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Derek Peschel wrote about Amigas: > The set-top box is novel. Correct me if I'm wrong; that hasn't been tried > before (unless you count the CD32), right? Isn't that like saying that DVD-ROM is a novel way to store data on a consumer electronics media (unless you count CD-ROM)? Why wouldn't you count CD32? If they do a new set-top, and it fails, and then they do a third, will you say that the third one is novel (unless you count the first two)? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 14:59:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <990308143015.202002e7@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Really? I managed to scavenge up a half-dozen IMSAI'S and almost as > many Altairs in a couple of years in Southern California in the early > 90's. Then again, I didn't just scout around at garage sales - I Oh man, I can talk about all kinds of things I passed up in the early 90s that today would make me rich on ebay, but we're talking about the here and now. > 1. Never define what you're looking for too narrowly. There's lots > of interesting stuff to play with out there - you don't need any > particular brand/model/serial number of computer to enjoy them. Absolutely. Once interest in something becomes too crowded its time to go seek elsewhere for fun and excitement. If you're ahead of the curve and are interested in something early on that others take to years later then of course you can take advantage of the newbies by selling your stuff for inflated prices. > I honestly don't think anyone can complain that there aren't interesting > things out there to collect. In the past decade, I probably averaged > 8000-10000 pounds of stuff a year (then again, I'm mainly interested in > minis and industrial controllers.) There's plenty of interesting stuff out there to find and play with. I think wanting an Altair just for the sake of owning one is incredibly pointless. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 8 15:13:11 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Another notable or expensive example was the large DEC TA90e autoloader > tape subsystem used in VAXclusters in years past. The Digital sticker > could be peeled off revealing it to be an IBM 3480. And in an amusing bit of Karmic payback, an early peripheral offering for the IBM pc was a rather boxy looking pen plotter, which was in reality the HP 7475 with a new (IBM) cover... (and modified ROMs) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Mar 8 15:21:56 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> > History will place >a very different value on their Altair because of what Linux will do to >Microsoft, far less than the tens of thousands that I imagine some people >think they may be worth some day. Before I speak, let me point out that I am a rabid supporter of Linux and I wish all bad things to Bill Gates, the powers that drive Micro$oft, Micro$oft and Windblows. Now that I put that disclaimer out, Linux doesn't have a chance against Micro$oft. The vast majority of computer users (now and in the future) are idiots who don't care to learn anything other that 'click on this little picture to make it go'. Linux will do some damage in the server market and other places where you have to have someone with some computer smarts but, most corporate purse strings are again controlled by those same 'click-idiots'. I really wish GNU would take a good command line OS (like CP/M), make it 32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with Winblows. IMHO Arfon From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Mar 8 13:15:58 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990308092920.39f7e0e6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990308131558.23977e1e@earthlink.net> At 09:29 AM 3/8/99, you wrote: >I picked up an 8080 bread board trainer made by E&L Instruments this >weekend. Does anyone have a manual for it? > > Joe > See if you can find the May, June 1976 issues of "Radio Electronics", a "dyna-micro" by John Titus was described there. It was also described some of the 8080 "Bugbooks", also with John Titus as the 3'rd author with P. Rony and David Larsen. I think it is the same as the E&L trainer. Here is an interesting quote from the 8080A Bugbook, 1977: "Inexpensive microcomputers will eventually penetrate every facet of life. Today, they can be found in automobiles, sewing machines, microwave ovens, TV games, vending machines, gasoline pumps, taxi meters, and so on. Tomorrow, they will be in phones, washers, driers, typewriters, elevators, heating and cooling systems, children's toys..." -Dave From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 15:34:18 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <199903082134.AA19373@world.std.com> >IIRC, the ETA has Tiny Basic in ROM. I recall having fun lashing it up to >my new, freshly-built H-19 terminal and later, my freshly-built H-8 >computer via a terminal program (which I've long forgotten which) from >the HUG. Those were the days! :-) :-) :-) That's it... just rub it in... Now I really want to find one... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 8 15:45:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: vax behaviors Message-ID: <4.1.19990308134325.00b84400@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I installed an ESDI disk in my uVax. It didn't work. I took it apart and discovered that the cable had been caught in the door and had ripped (flat cable). Disconnected it and the drive and the system doesn't come up to a prompt anymore. Sometimes the display on the back goes to 'F' and sometimes to 'C'. I've also noticed that my DC-OK light isn't lighting up. Is is possible I've toasted some aspect of the pwr supply? (perhaps just switching it on and off has done this) --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 8 15:56:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: 9047 bus grant? Message-ID: <4.1.19990308135448.00b85400@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> And with a uVax in mind, where does the 9047 bus grant go? The last C/D slot (4) underneat the ethernet or in the first non C/D slot ? (I'm guessing the former...) --Chuck From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 15:51:13 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc Message-ID: <000e01be69ad$c8faf060$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> The question of "what classic equipment was rebadged" is circular. To be honest, I can't think of any computer equipment I've ever seen in my life that wasn't at some time or other rebadged, oemed, merged, etc. under a different name. Why don't we just change the question to "what classic equipment was never rebadged". If we do that, the conversation is basically over :) Jay West From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 15:52:39 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question Message-ID: <001401be69ad$fcace300$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I've got several PDP-11's, all unibus - that use the RQDX2 controller. A friend of mine just came up with a 380mb Maxtor ESDI drive. Will the RQDX2 support it? Jay West From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 16:01:53 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question Message-ID: <199903082201.AA17376@world.std.com> >I've got several PDP-11's, all unibus - that use the RQDX2 controller. If you have Unibus, you can't possibly be using an RQDX2 controller. RQDXn series was Qbus only... (the only Unibus machine it might work in is the 11/84, but only in the qbus portion of the machine). >A friend of mine just came up with a 380mb Maxtor ESDI drive. Will the >RQDX2 support it? No. You need an ESDI controller. Like the DEC KFQSA, or the Andromeda ESDC, or an Emulex QD-22 (?) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 16:02:38 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question Message-ID: <001d01be69af$61c8dea0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> How embarassing... my 11's are Qbus - NOT unibus.... -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 3:59 PM Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question >I've got several PDP-11's, all unibus - that use the RQDX2 controller. > >A friend of mine just came up with a 380mb Maxtor ESDI drive. Will the RQDX2 >support it? > >Jay West > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 8 16:11:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: vax behaviors In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308134325.00b84400@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990308140214.00c41eb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> AAAAAAAAAAARGH! I hate this, everything seems to be going fine and then suddenly nothing seems to work. I've decide to focus on the BA123 housed uVax. I power it up and get no response on the terminal. The CPU board has four red LEDs (all lit) and there are three LEDs on the ethernet (also lit). The HEX display on the back of the unit says "F." The front has the red HALT light illuminated, DC OK is _not_ illuminated. My slots are : +-----------------------------+ 1 | CPU (KA630) conn | +-------------------||--------+ 2 | MEMORY 4MB conn | +-------------------||--------+ 3 | MEMORY 4MB conn | +-----------------------------+ 4 | M7516 | M9047 | +-----------------------------+ 5 | Viking QTO | - blank - | +-----------------------------+ 6 | - blank - | +-----------------------------+ 7 | WQESD (Sigma RQ11) | +-----------------------------+ 8 - 12 blank No obvious smell of smoke, just dust. What can I check ? --Chuck From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Mar 8 16:08:14 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <000e01be69ad$c8faf060$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: There were a large number of companies that bought Diable Daisywheeel printers and had Diable put the buying company nameplate on them. My Diable 630 had both a Diablo and Xerox nameplate on them but there a raft of other companies that Diablo would manufacture for. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jay West wrote: > The question of "what classic equipment was rebadged" is circular. > > To be honest, I can't think of any computer equipment I've ever seen in my > life that wasn't at some time or other rebadged, oemed, merged, etc. under a > different name. > > Why don't we just change the question to "what classic equipment was never > rebadged". If we do that, the conversation is basically over :) > > Jay West > > > From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 8 16:11:12 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Burroughs B1900 References: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36E44B00.396F8A47@rain.org> I went to preview the auction at VAFB, and there was some interesting stuff, although not enough to justify going back for the auction. However, I did see the Burroughs B1900 in the auction along with the Burroughs Power Center (two different lots.) These are fairly big units (30"w x 48"h x 24"d or so) and look to be heavy. If anyone is *really* interested and can't make it to the auction, let me know as I have at least one friend going there to bid on some stuff. From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 16:18:33 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question Message-ID: <199903082218.AA05959@world.std.com> >How embarassing... my 11's are Qbus - NOT unibus.... Just trying to keep you honest... :-) Seriously, the comment still stands. The RQDXn controllers won't handle ESDI. When you go looking for a controller, make sure it is fast enough to handle the disks. About a year ago, I got an ESDI controller for some disks, but it wasn't fast enough (at 10 Mbit/s) to handle the disk I had... But the Andromeda ESDC (at 15 Mbit/s) worked just fine. Oh yeah, I just realized I screwed up too... the KFQSA is DSSI, not ESDI (so many TLAs, so little time)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 16:26:40 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: vax behaviors Message-ID: <199903082226.AA14362@world.std.com> >AAAAAAAAAAARGH! > >I hate this, everything seems to be going fine and then suddenly nothing >seems to work. You installed the M9047, didn't you... >My slots are : > > +-----------------------------+ > 1 | CPU (KA630) conn | > +-------------------||--------+ > 2 | MEMORY 4MB conn | > +-------------------||--------+ > 3 | MEMORY 4MB conn | > +-----------------------------+ > 4 | M7516 | M9047 | > +-----------------------------+ > 5 | Viking QTO | - blank - | > +-----------------------------+ > 6 | - blank - | > +-----------------------------+ > 7 | WQESD (Sigma RQ11) | > +-----------------------------+ > 8 - 12 blank Slots 1-4 are Q/CD, the rest are Q/Q... You should order them 1/ABCD CPU 2/ABCD mem 3/ABCD mem 4/AB m7516 4/cd empty 5/AB Viking 5/cd m9047 6/ABCD WQESD 7-12 empty Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 16:29:02 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <19990308201301.13513.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 8, 99 08:13:01 pm Message-ID: <199903082229.OAA28088@saul5.u.washington.edu> > Derek Peschel wrote: > > Every time I look at TI's calculator web site, I see that they state their > > calculators' features in terms of "bid specifications". Now I find that > > creepy, personally. I always thought that TI didn't care very much about > > its calculators (anyone see any vintage TI calculators to go with the fine > > HP machines at the last VCF?). But if TI puts bids out, then they care even > > less than I thought. Unless they have some perverse internal bid system? > > No, that's TI bidding the calculators to school districts. Obviously > they have to build what their customers want. Oh. Oops... Well, their calculators still aren't very sturdy. :) -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 16:42:03 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: <19990308205859.13908.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 8, 99 08:58:59 pm Message-ID: <199903082242.OAA14181@saul5.u.washington.edu> > Derek Peschel wrote about Amigas: > > The set-top box is novel. Correct me if I'm wrong; that hasn't been tried > > before (unless you count the CD32), right? > > Isn't that like saying that DVD-ROM is a novel way to store data on a > consumer electronics media (unless you count CD-ROM)? You're putting an entirely different slant on what I said. I was under the impression that the CD32 was a big failure. (Maybe I was thinking of the CDTV.) Besides, what you said is literally true -- if you except CD-ROM, then DVD-ROM IS novel. :) Maybe my lack of real Amiga experience has skewed my perspective. Maybe I should not post so late at night. :) > Why wouldn't you count CD32? If they do a new set-top, and it fails, and > then they do a third, will you say that the third one is novel (unless you > count the first two)? No, I probably wouldn't. I was thinking that there was only one previous experiment and that it flopped. Apparently that's not true. -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 16:50:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> (message from Arfon Gryffydd on Mon, 08 Mar 1999 15:21:56 -0600) References: <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> Message-ID: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> Arfon wrote: > The vast majority of computer users (now and in the future) are idiots who > don't care to learn anything other that 'click on this little picture to > make it go'. You'll get no argument from me here. > Linux will do some damage in the server market and other places where you > have to have someone with some computer smarts but, most corporate purse > strings are again controlled by those same 'click-idiots'. A lot of corporations are switching to Linux for servers. Are you saying that the server purchases are controlled by different purse strings than the desktop machines, or are you saying that even 'click-idiots' realize that Linux is better for servers? > I really wish GNU would take a good command line OS (like CP/M), make it > 32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with > Winblows. Aside from being based on CP/M (which is actually in most regards even a more feeble excuse for an operating system than MS-DOS), how is what you're proposing any different than Linux with Gnome (or KDE)? Why do you think CP/M is a better base than Linux? I actually *like* CP/M, for what it was designed and intended for. I just think that trying to add bags on the side in an attempt to turn it into a "real system" will only result in a nasty kludge with lots of bags on the side. After all, that's exactly how the Microsoft stuff got to where it is today. So if GNU started today on a project like you're proposing, in 18 years we would have GNU Windows, which would be every bit as crufty and unreliable as MS Windows NT and 98 are now. On the other hand, by improving the Linux installation process, the Gnome or KDE desktops, and adding support for more hardware, the Linux user experience can be made just as compelling as Windows is now. Eric From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 16:58:32 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Mar 8, 99 03:21:56 pm Message-ID: <199903082258.OAA20279@saul5.u.washington.edu> Arfon wrote: > Micro$oft and Windblows. Now that I put that disclaimer out, Linux doesn't > have a chance against Micro$oft. The vast majority of computer users (now > and in the future) are idiots who don't care to learn anything other that > 'click on this little picture to make it go'. Linux will do some damage in > the server market and other places where you have to have someone with some > computer smarts but, most corporate purse strings are again controlled by > those same 'click-idiots'. > > I really wish GNU would take a good command line OS (like CP/M), make it > 32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with > Winblows. This is barely on topic, but it was too tempting to reply and not just hit 'd'. You have a good point, but it only leads to two objections in my mind: 1) The 'idiotification' process is already happening with Linux; there are various projects out there (like KDE and GNOME and various other window managers and package managers) that are attempting to make Linux look better and present a "point-and-click" appearance. I mention package managers because click-idiots certainly don't want to deal with the compiler. 2) Your second paragraph describes a process which is already happening with Linux. What did you have in mind that is different? A different starting OS? (CP/M, some free version of MS-DOS) An OS that's more intelligent about hardware? I'm not being rude -- your ideas are probably good but you need to spell them out. Then there's the matter of software. If your new OS is going to have commercially-written software, that provides an arena for the evil forces you described. (We might be able to avoid them, but the potential for them is certainly there.) If you're going to stick to free software, well, that's mainly written by idealistic geeky people who like to mess around in the source. :) So that conflicts with the design decision of writing for idiots. To keep this on topic -- What do you think will happen to the values of classic computers? -- Derek From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 8 17:08:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax Message-ID: <4.1.19990308145119.00a3b250@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (Yet Another Update) Thanks Megan! It turned out that when I removed the Viking tape card to inspect it I re-inserted it backward (no ears on that one). That meant the RQ11 wouldn't fit in slot 6 and that meant an empty slot. Q1) So how badly does it toast things in the Q-bus to be backwards in slots A-B ? Q2) Do all empty slots need to have bus grant boards? --Chuck From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 8 17:22:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >... if POS, PNX, Accent, etc aren't enough. Never heard of them; what are they like and what do they run on? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 8 17:27:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: <19990308205859.13908.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >Why wouldn't you count CD32? If they do a new set-top, and it fails, and OK, let's say we made up a chronological list of every set-top box ever made. Now, we scratch off the CD-32. What other famous ones are left and what number from first was the CD-32? I think this may be more impervious to your semantic games :) Anyway, I guess it depends on how you define set-top (two can play this...). Isn't a C-64 or Apple ][ a set-top box? Is a Sega Genesis a set-top? What exactly must a set-top be able to do that these three can't? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Mar 8 17:29:52 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:51 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Darn Sticky key... Diablo not Diable George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, George Rachor wrote: > There were a large number of companies that bought Diable Daisywheeel > printers and had Diable put the buying company nameplate on them. My > Diable 630 had both a Diablo and Xerox nameplate on them but there a raft > of other companies that Diablo would manufacture for. > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jay West wrote: > > > The question of "what classic equipment was rebadged" is circular. > > > > To be honest, I can't think of any computer equipment I've ever seen in my > > life that wasn't at some time or other rebadged, oemed, merged, etc. under a > > different name. > > > > Why don't we just change the question to "what classic equipment was never > > rebadged". If we do that, the conversation is basically over :) > > > > Jay West > > > > > > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 17:33:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Before I speak, let me point out that I am a rabid supporter of Linux and > I wish all bad things to Bill Gates, the powers that drive Micro$oft, > Micro$oft and Windblows. Now that I put that disclaimer out, Linux doesn't > have a chance against Micro$oft. The vast majority of computer users (now > and in the future) are idiots who don't care to learn anything other that > 'click on this little picture to make it go'. Linux will do some damage in > the server market and other places where you have to have someone with some > computer smarts but, most corporate purse strings are again controlled by > those same 'click-idiots'. Yeah, you're right. All Linux development will stop dead right now, nothing will be improved and everyone involved will forever leave Linux as it is right now because why bother? Oh, and those fancy point and click gooey's that people have already created like kde and StarOffice? Just ignore them, they are mirages. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 16:59:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question In-Reply-To: <199903082201.AA17376@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 8, 99 05:01:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/0e3f47a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 17:05:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at Mar 8, 99 02:08:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/2a2bfcf3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 17:11:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: vax behaviors In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308140214.00c41eb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 8, 99 02:11:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1339 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/fe5c8a1e/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Mar 8 17:39:47 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 08, 1999 10:50:51 PM Message-ID: <199903082339.QAA08788@calico.litterbox.com> At the risk of going WAY off topic, since no classic machine can run it, I've been looking at the BeOS as a replacement for win95 once my thesis (and thereby my dependance on winblows95) is over with. If they can get some momentum built up (as well as windows API support) I think they're going to be the next big thing OSwise. Not free, but competatively priced and MUCH better from what I've seen. Realistically I think that if the government makes good and chops Microsoft up (please, oh please) the OS department will wither and die because their products are so bad. Except in the corporate world, where NT will still limp along for a while. geeks will run Linux or BeOS on PCs because the platform will continue to be less expensive, but the real consumer and small business worlds will be owned by Macintosh. Between Macos X for servers and Macos 8.whatever for desktop clients, IMHO if apple plays their cards right they can own those two VERY lucrative markets. Also, so long as I'm predicting the future... :) I'm going to predict that as SGI comes to the limits of the MIPS archetecture, they're going to look around for a BSDish UNIX/RISC platform with PCI and fast processing as well as fast I/O to things like scanners and cameras in which to stick their custom godly graphics electronics and software. That platform will be the G3 powermac running MacOS X. I expect there to be some agreement between the two of them within the next couple years, ranging from contracting each other to a merger. Of course, there are a few big IFs in there. Apple has been known to throw away industry leadership before, and it's still remotely possible the government case against Microsoft will fail, but these are my predictions and I'm sticking with them. :) I also expect that, once liberated from their own wretched operating systems groups, the Microsoft applications side will still be very much the 600lb gorilla of the software world. My understanding is that works for MacOS is far and away superior to works for windows, so obviously they CAN write good apps in non MS OSs. > > Arfon wrote: > > The vast majority of computer users (now and in the future) are idiots who > > don't care to learn anything other that 'click on this little picture to > > make it go'. > > You'll get no argument from me here. > > > Linux will do some damage in the server market and other places where you > > have to have someone with some computer smarts but, most corporate purse > > strings are again controlled by those same 'click-idiots'. > > A lot of corporations are switching to Linux for servers. Are you saying > that the server purchases are controlled by different purse strings than > the desktop machines, or are you saying that even 'click-idiots' realize > that Linux is better for servers? > > > I really wish GNU would take a good command line OS (like CP/M), make it > > 32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with > > Winblows. > > Aside from being based on CP/M (which is actually in most regards even a more > feeble excuse for an operating system than MS-DOS), how is what you're > proposing any different than Linux with Gnome (or KDE)? > > Why do you think CP/M is a better base than Linux? > > I actually *like* CP/M, for what it was designed and intended for. > I just think that trying to add bags on the side in an attempt to turn it > into a "real system" will only result in a nasty kludge with lots of bags > on the side. After all, that's exactly how the Microsoft stuff got to > where it is today. So if GNU started today on a project like you're > proposing, in 18 years we would have GNU Windows, which would be every > bit as crufty and unreliable as MS Windows NT and 98 are now. > > On the other hand, by improving the Linux installation process, the Gnome > or KDE desktops, and adding support for more hardware, the Linux user > experience can be made just as compelling as Windows is now. > > Eric > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Mon Mar 8 17:39:46 1999 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Set-top boxes (was The new Amigas) Message-ID: <19990308172759.9adea8d9ba0b11d2be700000e80dc880.in@insidermarketing.com> > On 8 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >>Why wouldn't you count CD32? If they do a new set-top, and it fails, and > > OK, let's say we made up a chronological list of every set-top box ever > made. Now, we scratch off the CD-32. What other famous ones are left and > what number from first was the CD-32? I think this may be more impervious > to your semantic games :) > > Anyway, I guess it depends on how you define set-top (two can play > this...). Isn't a C-64 or Apple ][ a set-top box? Is a Sega Genesis a > set-top? What exactly must a set-top be able to do that these three can't? > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) A CD32 IS a set-top box, I think, by today's current definition. Said term wasn't around when the CD32 was. But this WAS there era, was it not, of the CD-Interactive? That also might qualify. Also Apple's abortive "Pippen" would qualify as a proto-set-top device (and something I wouldn't mind having.) I always thought of a "set-top" box as having several qualities: It was coming out of the stereo-system/VCR/video game consumer orientation. Which means, among other things, that the remote control comes first and the keyboard is an option. You as user are some distance from the device, not seated in front stabbing at buttons. (Commodores and Apples get disqualified for this reason.) Second, there's some sense of not "turning it on and watching it boot" which has come to pervade computers. From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 8 17:34:01 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <01be69bc$25c22080$b3c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail >I gather from many conversations I've had that many people buying the >Altairs see them as historic becaiuse of their connection to Microsoft. >Some think that it marked the beginning of the microcomputer revolution >because it launched the career of Gates. What these foolish speculators >fail to realize is that the game is not yet won, and they are leaving the >arena at halftime thinking their investment is secure. History will place >a very different value on their Altair because of what Linux will do to >Microsoft, far less than the tens of thousands that I imagine some people >think they may be worth some day. This may be halftime in a game that turns around but you still can't disparage some of the plays during the first half. I don't know how bg's career if factored into an altair's value nor do I really care. It dosen't seem much of a reason to me to go for a MITS. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 8 17:41:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <19990308234057096.AAB206@fuj03> Since it's the GUI that attracts the idiots, I'd get behind an os that has features which would defeat any attempt at GUI operation. The real problem is that the people who buy the desktop systems don't use them. They specify them and then collect a bonus, quit, and go to work for the vendor of those systems. Back about 15 years ago we started seeing some really decent engineering software for DOS. You could buy a VERY good schematic capture package for $500 (I still use mine and have yet to see anything better, even at prices > $500k) and a serviceable PCB router for $1200. Today you can easily spend $2e6 and end up with something which does NOTHING useful at all under UNIX and does little more under NT. It's the GUI, stupid . . . that's the excuse. Today you routinely pop into the GUI, run the help and find there isn't any. Many of the software vendors of the mid-80's have taken their fairly decent products, reduced their capabilities, introduced countless bugs and octupled the price, relative to inflation. We need some really stiff legislation making it an unconditional, immediate, and irrevocally hanging offense for ALL employees of any corporation any employees of which endeavor to sell software which is not fully documented. That means that documentation must predict the behavior of their software precisely to a depth of all of 2^32 inputs. That will certainly eliminate the use of a generalized GUI! How many times have you been told " well . . . that's interesting . . . we didn't know that it does THAT!" Dick ---------- > From: Derek Peschel > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Interesting to note about Altairs... > Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 3:58 PM > > Arfon wrote: > > Micro$oft and Windblows. Now that I put that disclaimer out, Linux doesn't > > have a chance against Micro$oft. The vast majority of computer users (now > > and in the future) are idiots who don't care to learn anything other that > > 'click on this little picture to make it go'. Linux will do some damage in > > the server market and other places where you have to have someone with some > > computer smarts but, most corporate purse strings are again controlled by > > those same 'click-idiots'. > > > > I really wish GNU would take a good command line OS (like CP/M), make it > > 32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with > > Winblows. > > This is barely on topic, but it was too tempting to reply and not just hit > 'd'. You have a good point, but it only leads to two objections in my mind: > > 1) The 'idiotification' process is already happening with Linux; there are > various projects out there (like KDE and GNOME and various other window > managers and package managers) that are attempting to make Linux look better > and present a "point-and-click" appearance. I mention package managers > because click-idiots certainly don't want to deal with the compiler. > > 2) Your second paragraph describes a process which is already happening with > Linux. What did you have in mind that is different? A different starting > OS? (CP/M, some free version of MS-DOS) An OS that's more intelligent > about hardware? I'm not being rude -- your ideas are probably good but you > need to spell them out. > > Then there's the matter of software. If your new OS is going to have > commercially-written software, that provides an arena for the evil forces > you described. (We might be able to avoid them, but the potential for them > is certainly there.) If you're going to stick to free software, well, > that's mainly written by idealistic geeky people who like to mess around in > the source. :) So that conflicts with the design decision of writing for > idiots. > > To keep this on topic -- What do you think will happen to the values of > classic computers? > > -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 17:45:36 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 8, 99 06:27:03 pm Message-ID: <199903082345.PAA07572@saul5.u.washington.edu> Max wrote: > On 8 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >Why wouldn't you count CD32? If they do a new set-top, and it fails, and > > OK, let's say we made up a chronological list of every set-top box ever > made. Now, we scratch off the CD-32. What other famous ones are left and > what number from first was the CD-32? I think this may be more impervious > to your semantic games :) Oh, maybe now I see why everyone else thinks aliens just popped out of my eyes or something... when I said the set-top box was novel, I mwant "as a configuration for the Amiga" ONLY, not "in general". Except for the CD-32 and the CDTV (which IIRC were not that popular, at least the CDTV) I don't think the Amiga has been released on a set-top box configuration before. -- Derek From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 8 17:40:20 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <01be69bd$072a4a20$b3c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Megan > ...... >Now I really want to find one... After I get it built and have a chance to grok and run a few laps in it, I'll let you *BORROW* it if you wish... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 8 19:33:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990308092920.39f7e0e6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990308193325.3dc781ea@intellistar.net> At 06:31 PM 3/8/99 +0000, you wrote: >> >> I picked up an 8080 bread board trainer made by E&L Instruments this >> weekend. Does anyone have a manual for it? > >If this is the board I think it is [8080 + 1702 KEX ROM + 256 or 512 >bytes RAM + 3 output ports going to LEDs + octal keypad + breadboard] >then I found one at a radio rally last year. That sounds about like it. RAM is 4 ea 2111A-4. There is an unmarked 1702 EPROM (A15) and an empty socket (A16) next to it. Does your's have an IC in A3? If so can you tell me the type? Is there supposed to be something mounted to the left of the keyboard? Mine is barren but there are screw holes there. > >I mentioned it on the list, and somebody (I forget who, sorry) posted the >source for KEX, which is enough to figure out how to use it. I can send >said listing to you if you want it. Yes I'd like to see it. > >THe hardware would be _trivial_ to reverse-engineer (about 1 hour at most >IMHO...). I must get round to it... That's my problem, no time. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 8 19:39:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: References: <199903081003.CAA23180@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990308193953.3dc76ec2@intellistar.net> At 08:08 AM 3/8/99 -0800, Jim wrote: > >and I've got an early Racal Vadic high speed modem rebadged by HP > I just took apart a big HP 7912 tape/disk drive. The boards were HPs but the mechanisms were marked 3M! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 8 19:58:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308105118.00a11770@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <000601be6986$9011eaa0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990308195820.08c7e450@intellistar.net> At 10:57 AM 3/8/99 -0800, Chuck muttered: > >This is the point isn't it? Finding an Altair at a garage sale or swap >meeting in Bloomington Indiana would be like finding the Holy Grail in a >pawn shop, not friggin likely. Why not? I've found two in Orlando in the last year and I haven't even been searching hard. I found out about both by word of mouth. Joe From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 8 18:08:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <01be69bc$25c22080$b3c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail > >I gather from many conversations I've had that many people buying the > >Altairs see them as historic becaiuse of their connection to Microsoft. > >Some think that it marked the beginning of the microcomputer revolution > >because it launched the career of Gates. What these foolish speculators > >fail to realize is that the game is not yet won, and they are leaving the > >arena at halftime thinking their investment is secure. History will place > >a very different value on their Altair because of what Linux will do to > >Microsoft, far less than the tens of thousands that I imagine some people > >think they may be worth some day. > > This may be halftime in a game that turns around but you still can't > disparage some of the plays during the first half. I don't know how bg's > career if factored into an altair's value nor do I really care. It dosen't > seem much of a reason to me to go for a MITS. Sure, but I'm just giving you an idea of what other people are thinking. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 18:17:17 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc Message-ID: <004701be69c2$31fd2c40$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... >PERQ? (Or do you count the fact that you can get them with PERQ systems >and ICL nameplates as badging. On the grounds they were partially >developped by both companies, I am not so sure). I would have to call that rebadging, but I do see your point on that one. >PERQ 3a (only ever ICL) > >Philips machines (although they _did_ badge other people's PCs at one point) > >Acorn Archimedes? > >HP9100 (a computer in all but name) > >Xerox Alto, D-machines? Yes, but would most people call ALL of these classic? Not to disparage them, but... perhaps it's my interpretation of "classic" getting in the way. Jay West From tcraw at erols.com Mon Mar 8 18:35:48 1999 From: tcraw at erols.com (Francis Crawford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: atari slmc804 printer Message-ID: <36E46CE4.4862@erols.com> I have one if you know of anyone who wants it. You have to arrange for pickup yourself. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Mar 8 13:55:03 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: KayPro II Boot Disk In-Reply-To: <000301be693a$864597c0$fa4f5d18@codewarrior.carolina.rr.com> Message-ID: <199903090055.TAA04890@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Mar 99 at 3:06, Todd Osborne wrote: > This boot disks seem to be all the rave :) I need one for a KayPro II. I > assume this is CP/M, but I am not sure, since I never actually used this > computer. But if someone can provide the disk, I will have a perfect KII. > Thanks. > > Todd Osborne Check out the archives for Don Maislin. The Computer Journal has all things Kaypro. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Mar 8 13:55:03 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Rulings ??? was: Re: AUCTION - Eprom Programmer In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990308130115.00ff4be0@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <199903090055.TAA04914@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Mar 99 at 13:01, John Foust wrote: > At 04:28 PM 3/7/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >>Couldn't these auctions also be run on the ccauction list that Doug > >> hosts on nut.net ? > > > >Chuck, I have to object to your objection. I think what Anthony is doing > >is quite admirable. > > Yes, according to the recent ruling, gloating over ownership of cool > gizmos is only appropriate *after* the acquisition - not before! > > - John > What recent ruling ? I know nothing about an effing ruling except Doug and a few others bitching about having thier "turf" opened to list members, some of whom don't have the time to spend searching E-Pay. Let's not enshrine it as a "ruling". Don't want to reopen this band-wasting can of worms again, but not all ,or even a majority went along with that view. Read the FAQ for guidelines. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 18:58:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:27:03 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990309005816.15566.qmail@brouhaha.com> Max wrote: > I think this may be more impervious to your semantic games :) > Anyway, I guess it depends on how you define set-top (two can play > this...). Isn't a C-64 or Apple ][ a set-top box? As I read it, the original statement was that an Amiga-based set top box would be unique (unless you count the CD32). The existence of non-Amiga-based set-top-boxes is irrelevant to that point. Geez, now I'm starting to wish that Amigas were off-charter, just as I've wished PCs were. Not that I want to start up that particular flame fest again. From chrish at kootenay.net Mon Mar 8 19:01:27 1999 From: chrish at kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Boot disk needed :) Message-ID: <36E472E7.9DCFD572@kootenay.net> Chris Halarewich wrote: > Howdy > > Just wondering if someone out there would have a extra kickstart > disc for an amiga 1000 that they could spare to loose or copy for the > cost of > shipping + a few bucks? > > thanx in advance > > Chris > Castlegar BC CANADA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 18:35:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 8, 99 06:22:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/eca8ff7b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 18:39:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 8, 99 06:27:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1120 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/d08618c2/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 8 19:05:55 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: More HP manuals (some new, some previously posted) Message-ID: <00b401be69c8$fd4cd840$0101a8c0@jay> Was cleaning out the manual shelf again... The following manuals are available free to a good home (yes, the titles are exact, if not long): Magnetic tape diagnostic nine-track 7970/13181 Maintenance manual 30032B asynchronous terminal controller for HP3000 computer systems Maintenance manual 30115A nine-track (NRZI-PE) magnetic tape subsystem for HP3000 computer systems Installation and service manual model 7905a cartridge disc subsystem for HP3000 computer systems Installation and service manual 40018A plenum assembly Installation and service manual model 13037A disc controller Operating and service manual 7970B/7970C digital magnetic tape units Operating and service manual 7970B/7970C digital magnetic tape units There is two of the last title. These are all manuals I have no use for or have duplicates of. Please - someone take them! Jay West From terryf at intersurf.com Mon Mar 8 19:13:04 1999 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: SWTPC and NETRONICS Parts Message-ID: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Hello folks: HEADS UP FOR COLLECTORS I have the following items. If anyone is interested, drop me an email, if not they will go to eBay. I must stress that I would consider these "PARTS ONLY", I do not intend to represent them as any thing in working condition. While they may work, they are AS IS! SWTPC: AC-30 Tape interface (dual tape IIRC) card MP-A2 CPU card SSB M-16-A Memory card MP-LA Com (IIRC) card MP-B Motherboard MP-P Power supply card (cap and bridge included) Lower Case Half (front, rear, and bottom pan -- Faceplate and 2 buttons included) NETRONICS ELECTRONIC EXPLORER (case, power supply, motherboard) PROFESSIONAL ASCII TERMINAL (appears to have been modified) SOLID STATE MUSIC MB7 - 16K Ram card These items will go to eBay at < $10.00 each if nobody snags em first, the dumpster if nobody grabs them there. Terryf@intersurf.com From gareth.knight2 at which.net Mon Mar 8 19:22:46 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: The new Amigas Message-ID: <02ea01be69cc$0b4a0dc0$48edfea9@gaz> Derek Peschel wrote: >You're putting an entirely different slant on what I said. I was under the >impression that the CD32 was a big failure. (Maybe I was thinking of the >CDTV.) Besides, what you said is literally true -- if you except CD-ROM, >then DVD-ROM IS novel. :) Commodore going bust cut the CD32 down in its prime. In the UK it sold the most CD-based software from the time of its release until around August 1994. Admittedly CD sales were not what they are now and it was up against competitors such as the Mega CD, CDi, and PC-CD ROM. >Maybe my lack of real Amiga experience has skewed my perspective. Maybe I >should not post so late at night. :) Hey! Visit my webpage for the complete guide to the Amiga. URL in the sig. >Except for the CD-32 and the CDTV (which IIRC were not that popular, at >least the CDTV) I don't think the Amiga has been released on a set-top box >configuration before. It was not the first time such an idea was proposed for the Amiga. When Escom bought the Amiga in 1995 they licensed the OS and chipset to an American company called Viscorp (now known as US Digital). They hired a number of Amiga personalities, including Carl Sassenrath, to create their "Amiga ED" system. From what I have seen the machine was in a semi-complete stage at the time of Escom's liquidation. There is a brief description of it on my web site- http://www.onlyamiga.freeserve.co.uk/amigaed.html. I've also got some interesting pictures of the machine in action that will be uploaded sometime in the future. Yesterday I mentioned the Siamese PCI card. I've just checked one of my other email accounts and have been told that development has stalled. From what I have heard Amiga Inc have stopped backing the project and there are major concerns about the state of the "Classic" Amiga market (as always). -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 19:36:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308145119.00a3b250@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: >Q1) So how badly does it toast things in the Q-bus to be backwards in slots >A-B ? Eep, good question. >Q2) Do all empty slots need to have bus grant boards? No, you need them when you break the "Snake". As long as you have them in the looping pattern anything after the last card can be blank. Of course the trick is knowing how the pattern goes, and I can't remember. It varies depending on the backplane you have. IIRC, you've got a BA123, and the first three slots have to have either a Quad board, or only a double board in the top, after that it starts snaking with the fourth slot. IIRC, the fourth slot starts at the top. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 19:38:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: References: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 8, 99 06:22:03 pm Message-ID: >POS (PERQ Operating System or Pascal OS) was the first PERQ OS. It's POS has got to be the single most overused OS name! DEC used it for the Professionals, and some European company used it for a Alternative to the Amiga OS that they were working on a couple years ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 19:07:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990308193325.3dc781ea@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 8, 99 07:33:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/27cb3397/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 19:17:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <004701be69c2$31fd2c40$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Mar 8, 99 06:17:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 775 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/e5c06585/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 19:36:59 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 8, 99 05:38:45 pm Message-ID: <199903090137.RAA25824@saul5.u.washington.edu> > >POS (PERQ Operating System or Pascal OS) was the first PERQ OS. It's > > POS has got to be the single most overused OS name! DEC used it for the Oh, come on. There's got to be TONS more OSs with "DOS" in their names. -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 19:48:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: References: <199903081428.GAA32423@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >They've appointed a new manager and combined the two >companies to a large extent. I can't remember his exact >name at the moment. Check out www.amiga.com for the recent >announcement. Well, as I happen to have the mailbox with all the TEAM Amiga messages open at the moment his name is Jim Collas, and he is the former senior vice president at Gateway. He is becoming the new President of Amiga, Inc. Personally I think that this is the first good news in almost a year. The way the situation has been handled so far is criminal. The WOA announcements last spring did more towards killing off the Classic Amiga market than anything since Commodore's bankrupcy. >Well, the CD32 was really aimed at the console market. The >CDTV was aimed at what would become known as the set-top >market but it was a few years too early. Yes, but if you add a SX-32 you would have what looks to me a nice littel system. I've got a SX-1 that I've played with in a CD-32. I'd like to see a nice set-top Amiga with a keyboard and mouse that can be either plugged in with a cable or IR. It should also be able to work on a TV or a Monitor. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 19:36:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 8, 99 05:38:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 244 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/c8b49b73/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Mar 8 19:49:07 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: References: <004701be69c2$31fd2c40$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Mar 8, 99 06:17:17 pm Message-ID: <199903090145.UAA10363@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:17:08 +0000 (GMT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc > > >PERQ 3a (only ever ICL) > > > > > them, but... perhaps it's my interpretation of "classic" getting in the > > way. > > > If you have a tighter definition, of course, it's quite possible that all > the machines were badged/oemed/... > Click! I remember, Besides brands on machines, some components get rebranded or renumbered...and more. Some chips are actually rebadged. PCmates and VXpro/TXpro used different chipsets, Crystal (actually UMC chips) and some other chips as well. I have sneaking suspecisions that Intel's 740 is partly Cirrus Logic design. Wizard > > > > > Jay West > > > -tony > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 19:55:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question In-Reply-To: <001401be69ad$fcace300$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: >A friend of mine just came up with a 380mb Maxtor ESDI drive. Will the RQDX2 >support it? As you've already found out, no. However, I can tell you one controller that definitly will work with a Maxtor 380Mb ESDI drive. I just put one on my Webster WQESD controller, and although I've not put a OS on it yet (I'd accidentally put a manual I needed in storage), I did extensivelly test it out with the controllers build in diagnostics. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Mar 8 20:27:48 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990308212748.00981c70@mail.30below.com> I have a friend who says he has an Apple //c that he would like to get working again. I (of course) told him that I may be able to help in in this regard. ObApples: I'm no *dummy* on 8-bit Apple software... knew both Integer Basic and Applesoft Basic back in high school, and even programmed a fair amount on a Franklin Ace 1000 when the chance presented itself, so I can "hold my own." However, hardware-wise I'm rather close to clueless about the Apple ][ series of machines; I've never dug into the internals of any of these critters before... so here goes: 1. His keyboard from the sounds of it, is (at best) *seriously* wounded. It wasn't working due to sticky keys and took it to an "expert" who profusely coated the keyboard with silicone lubricant, which (of course) didn't help. --- Can you tear down a //c keyboard, or is it one of those "plastic-rivet" held throwaway types? I have rebuilt several Tandy CoCo 1/2/3 keyboards... is a //c keyboard even remotely similar? Or... does anyone have a spare keyboard they're willing to sell for a reasonable price? 2. He's got some software on disks that (i believe) he's assuming are unreadable. He speaks of the disks being dirty & worn, but doesn't actually mention that he's attemted and failed to see if they still work. He is willing to purchase new (if possible) disks of this software, which he's not sure what it was called... but he says it was the word processor and spelling checker from "border bond" [sic] software... which I'm assuming would be "Broderbund." He cannot remember the actual titles, but he says he has the original disks, so I do have access to them if necessary. Again, my friend is willing to pay a reasonable amount for replacement disks. --- I believe (from the email conversation) that this equipment other than these problems, all the equipment was working right up until he purchased a Win95 box, which has since died and has purchased a new Win98 Goatway... (oops, Freudian slip... ;-) He states that the machine may not actually get used much, but he does want a spare "word processor" in case his Wintel box goes down (again). He's wheelchair bound, cannot speak, and uses word processors {snail mail} & email for almost all communication with the outside world. He does have his Epson HX-20, but the little roll paper would not be good for correspondence, nor would the tiny LCD screen. *Any* help or information at all on this project would be most appreciated, so thank you all in advance. Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Mar 8 20:38:32 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: <199903090137.RAA25824@saul5.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990308213832.0091d870@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Derek Peschel had spoken clearly: >> >POS (PERQ Operating System or Pascal OS) was the first PERQ OS. It's >> >> POS has got to be the single most overused OS name! DEC used it for the > >Oh, come on. There's got to be TONS more OSs with "DOS" in their names. But... what (I think) you're referring to may not count. Like the ROM-based DOS for the Tandy CoCo was considered either DECB (Disk Extended Color Basic) or RS-DOS, depending on who you ask, and when. Plus, for the Z-80 side of RS, you had TRSDOS, LS-DOS, NewDOS, and prolly more I've never heard of, but *none* of these examples are what Zane was originally referring to, for DOS is only a subset of the entire, correct name. In fact, MS-DOS and PC-DOS wouldn't even count for his argument. (CompSpeak: RS-DOS != MS-DOS != NewDOS != DOS...) Likewise, if there was an OS called PPOS, or NewPOS, these wouldn't count either. That is, if I read his statements right. Question: How many DOS's were just "DOS?" No more, no less, just "DOS?" Just a thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Mar 8 20:38:28 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Viking QTO tests? Message-ID: <4.1.19990308182346.00a88340@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Whew! The uVax II is talking to me again. With Megan's help and a couple of others the boards have been correctly arranged and once again I get the 'chevron' prompt. I use the following magic to get into WOMBAT on the controller: >>> D/P/W 20001F40 20 >>> D/L 20088008 80000002 >>> D/W AC >>> S 400 Where is replaced with 20001468 in my case. It varies based on how the switches are set. The WQESD manual claims you can get into WOMBAT by typing 'W' if the right switch is set but my VAX just says "illegal command" The disk controller doesn't "see" my ESDI disk but I've got some cable damage on the 34 pin cable that I need to repair. (replacing the cable) However, after the mistake of connecting the QTO card in backwards I'm trying to find some way to test it. My best guess is to put a tape in the drive and try to boot from it but I don't know what the device name would be... any help here would be good. --Chuck From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Mar 8 20:36:02 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70's - Now you can own one of these great work horses (fwd) Message-ID: Heads Up!! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:57:29 -0800 From: E.B. Lieberman To: Info-PDP11@transarc.com Subject: PDP-11/70's - Now you can own one of these great work horses Now you can own a PDP-11/70! Yep, that's right. I'm not talking about those little 11/8x and 11/9x Q-bus jobs. I'm talking about the real thing; you know with MASSBUS and all. A global financial institution, previously headquartered in Northern California, is getting ready to say goodbye to the last of its PDP-11/70's. These machines (there are eight of them), were used as message store and forward switches for nearly 20 years. Great minds have tried to count the number of times the world wide GNP have flowed through these systems; and failed !!! Each CPU has roughly the same configuration as follows: QED 11/70 processor upgrade with 4Mb memory plus cache running at multiple VUP speeds. (Wow, faster than a 11/780, VAX engineering - eat your hearts out); Two System Industries CLUSTOR III MASSBUS disk controllers with 16 Seagate 1.0 Gig drives built with SMD interfaces. Ten drives are fixed while the remaining are in removable canisters; One Fujitsu 2480M/3480 SCSI tape drive (emulates a TU81) plus SCSI-UNIBUS controller; One TE16 or TU16 magtape drive (MASSBUS); Two DV-11's with modem control (16 channel sync or async adapters) and custom drivers set up for a variation on IBM BISYNC; Three DZ-11's and an ETHERNET DELUA; Plus software to show you that all hardware components are functional; Did I say eight (8) CPU's? There's more !! For a short time only, we can throw in tons of spares that include: More QED's, SETASI memory (2Mb and 4Mb), more DV-11's, more DZ-11's, full 11/70 CPU kits, DH-11's, DHQ-11's, 50-60 extra Seagate drives, as described above, in removable canisters, 24 or so extra SI CLUSTOR controllers, 3 to its own 19" rack. Am I finished? No way !!! I'll even throw in a few RP06 disk packs. The platters are great for making Frisbee's out of (kids, don't play with these without adult supervision). Boxes of hardware manuals and even a TECO manual (the first real editor that today still has the best macro generator going). So if you are interested in taking the entire lot (en masse), then drop me a line and we can talk about it. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 20:43:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question Message-ID: <199903090243.AA17044@world.std.com> <'click on this little picture to make it go'. Linux will do some damage i Message-ID: <36E48D40.398B5F49@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Q2) Do all empty slots need to have bus grant boards? > No, you need them when you break the "Snake". As long as you have them in > the looping pattern anything after the last card can be blank. Of course > the trick is knowing how the pattern goes, and I can't remember. It varies > depending on the backplane you have. IIRC, you've got a BA123, and the > first three slots have to have either a Quad board, or only a double board > in the top, after that it starts snaking with the fourth slot. IIRC, the > fourth slot starts at the top. Jerome Fine replies: BA123 has 12 slots: 01 A / B / C / D | 02 A / B / C / D \/ 03 A / B / C / D | 04 A / B / C / D \/ 05 A / B / A / B - > - > 06 A / B / A / B < - < - 07 A / B / A / B - > - > 08 etc. 09 10 11 12 13 reserved for RD5n and RX50 or RX33 I/O distribution boards With a uVAX, I understand you place the CPU at the top (which is furthest away from the from of the BA123 box where the drive bays are located) and ALL memory (a maximum of 3 boards - they MUST be in the A/B/C/D slots and connected to the CPU via a cable. NOTE: Maximum memory for uVAX is 16 MBytes. With a PDP-11, the usual place for the CPU is in the top slot with the memory to follow - EXCEPT FOR THE 11/83 If you have a dual board in slots A/B of 01 to 04, you MUST leave the C/D portion empty. If you have a missing or open A/B in slots 05 to 12, you MUST insert a bus grant - an M9047 is a bus grant. Normal Qbus quad boards (EXCEPT FOR THE RQDX1) have a built in bus grant to take care of things for this backplane. You do NOT need a bus grant card after the last card in the backplane. IF you are using an RQDX1, it MUST be the last card in the backplane since it has NO built in bus grant. It does not have to be in slot 12, there just can't be any boards which follow AND require a bus grant. The BA23 is almost identical, except that there are ONLY 3 A/B/C/D, and there are 5 more for a total of eight AND there is a very different I/O distribution panel for RD5n. Ask if you need more! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 8 20:56:17 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <01be69d8$67178680$e6c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent >There are people trying to do windows like/compatable interfaces but >hitting the MS APIs is like shooting at a moving target I guess by this you mean the constant flow of new COM interfaces/controls and extensions... The Win32 SDK itself has been immutably around for quite awhile. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 21:09:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990308213832.0091d870@mail.30below.com> References: <199903090137.RAA25824@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Likewise, if there was an OS called PPOS, or NewPOS, these wouldn't count >either. > >That is, if I read his statements right. Question: How many DOS's were just >"DOS?" No more, no less, just "DOS?" Well, basically right, but as Tony pointed out, on the DEC Pro POS is actually P/OS, and I can't remember if the Amigoid POS is POS or P-OS, but it was to also run on a Pios One :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 8 21:09:13 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Weird OSs In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990308213832.0091d870@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 8, 99 09:38:32 pm Message-ID: <199903090309.TAA21022@saul5.u.washington.edu> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Once upon a midnight dreary, Derek Peschel had spoken clearly: > >> >POS (PERQ Operating System or Pascal OS) was the first PERQ OS. It's > >> POS has got to be the single most overused OS name! DEC used it for the > >Oh, come on. There's got to be TONS more OSs with "DOS" in their names. > Plus, for the Z-80 side of RS, you had TRSDOS, LS-DOS, NewDOS, and prolly > more I've never heard of, but *none* of these examples are what Zane was > originally referring to, for DOS is only a subset of the entire, correct > name. In fact, MS-DOS and PC-DOS wouldn't even count for his argument. Yes, you're right. Zane has a perfectly good point. I was just struck by the irony that he may be talking about 4-5 OSs while I can come up with dozens. Actually, I do kow of a few "just plain DOS" systems: DOS for the IBM System/360, DOS for the Apple ][, DOS for the Atari 8-bit machines, DOS for the PDP-11. You might be able to come up with more DOS's than POS's if you tried hard enough. -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 21:19:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: The new Amigas In-Reply-To: <02ea01be69cc$0b4a0dc0$48edfea9@gaz> Message-ID: Gareth Knight wrote: >Yesterday I mentioned the Siamese PCI card. I've just checked one of my >other email accounts and have been told that development has stalled. From >what I have heard Amiga Inc have stopped backing the project and there are >major concerns about the state of the "Classic" Amiga market (as always). Oh, BLEEP! Any news on the BoXeR? I'd wanted a BoXeR so bad it isn't funny, but Mick has been dragging his feet for so long I'm no longer sure. I'd thought the Siamese Hardware was ready to go and all that was left was the drivers. I'm sure all the people that preordered these love this news. I didn't preorder one for two reasons, lack of faith in it being completed, and the main reason is there was no mention of Linux support. Despite needing Windows I'd have probably bought a Siamese card once it came out, just because it is such cool tech. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 8 21:28:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <36E48D40.398B5F49@idirect.com> References: Message-ID: Great Explanation! cut to save bandwidth. >The BA23 is almost identical, except that there are ONLY 3 >A/B/C/D, and there are 5 more for a total of eight AND there >is a very different I/O distribution panel for RD5n. Unless it's a VAXstation II/RC that hasn't had the backplane replaced. The VAXstation II/RC thanks to a stupid marketing gimic has three slots filled in with Rosen. That leaves you with just enough slots for the CPU, Memory, disk and tape controller, video adapter, and Ethernet controller (I could swear I'm missing a controller here). I've pulled the video adapter and put an RL02 controller in mine. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Mar 8 21:27:54 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:52 2005 Subject: Apple //c Message-ID: <000c01be69dc$d2772da0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> My mistake, I was misleading in saying that the cricket is in a separate enclosure; actually it is in it's own box with only a cable coming out with a connector that could fit in the modem or printer connectors (Serial device comes to mind) I'll do more web search before posting on the comp.sys.apple2 Thanks for the answers Francois >On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Francois wrote: > >> I just got a //c over the Week End, >> It came with what looks like a sound system: the item is in a separate >> enclosure with what looks like a speaker and a volume knob. It's labelled >> "cricket". Does anyone on the list have any infor on this item? Power >> requirement, software that uses it etc... > >Its a speech synthesizer speaker box. Unless a Cricket card was made that >could be installed inside the //c (I'm not aware of such a thing although >I won't rule it out) then this box probably went with something like a //e >that did have the speech synthesizer card in it. > >Er, wait a second, I'm thinking of something different. I do remember >reading articles in mid-80s Apple magazines that were advertising the >Cricket. It may very well have been for the //c. > >Try posting this message on comp.sys.apple2. Somewhere there should be >able to help you more than this message. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From davidfreibrun at home.com Mon Mar 8 13:31:21 1999 From: davidfreibrun at home.com (David Freibrun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Altair Computer enthusiasts.. Message-ID: <00dd01be699a$3f4a3320$73280518@cx918974-a.msnv1.occa.home.com> Greetings, -Membership is at a healthy 42 members to the Altair Computer collector's club. My goal is reach 100 members by the end of '99. Spread the word! http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/altaircomputerclub -If you haven't already seen the parent website to this club please check it out- http://altaircomputers.org It's chalk full of useful info for Altair computer enthusiasts. -One of the most important initiatives of the website is to complete the owner registry of MITS computers including 8800, 680 and Attache http://www.geocities.com/~daveygf/registry/registryserial.html If your model is not on the registry, let me know so I can update the list. Of course your privacy will be respected if you don't want your name published. davidfreibrun@home.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990308/bc4dfebe/attachment.html From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Mar 8 21:21:42 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: SWTPC and NETRONICS Parts Message-ID: <19990308.212153.277.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I could use the MP-A2, how much you asking? Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Mar 8 21:35:41 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax References: Message-ID: <36E4970D.E19224AC@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > Great Explanation! cut to save bandwidth. > >The BA23 is almost identical, except that there are ONLY 3 > >A/B/C/D, and there are 5 more for a total of eight AND there > >is a very different I/O distribution panel for RD5n. > Unless it's a VAXstation II/RC that hasn't had the backplane replaced. The > VAXstation II/RC thanks to a stupid marketing gimic has three slots filled > in with Rosen. That leaves you with just enough slots for the CPU, Memory, > disk and tape controller, video adapter, and Ethernet controller (I could > swear I'm missing a controller here). I've pulled the video adapter and > put an RL02 controller in mine. Jerome Fine replies: Thank you! I believe the box you refer to is a standard BA23 that DEC "modified" and many distributors purchased at about HALF the price of a normal uVAX II. The idea was to get out a VAXstation II ASAP (later DEC had another model) or so I was told. It was ONE of the great design achievements by DEC. Many dealers promptly bought as many as possible PLUS they ordered space backplanes for a real uVAX II (hopefully not on the same order - most distributors were not that dumb). About a half hour of time was needed to replace the backplanes filled with resin with the ones that were not - 3 spare slots available - and there was no restriction by DEC as to how the VAXstation II could be used!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I there anyone from DEC who could confirm this bit of trivia? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 21:42:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990309034200.16795.qmail@brouhaha.com> > IIRC, you've got a BA123, and the > first three slots have to have either a Quad board, or only a double board > in the top, after that it starts snaking with the fourth slot. IIRC, the BA123 has four CD slots (vs. three in a BA23), so the zigzag doesn't start until the fifth slot. From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 8 21:56:26 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > I actually *like* CP/M, for what it was designed and intended for. > I just think that trying to add bags on the side in an attempt to turn it > into a "real system" will only result in a nasty kludge with lots of bags > on the side. After all, that's exactly how the Microsoft stuff got to > where it is today. So if GNU started today on a project like you're > proposing, in 18 years we would have GNU Windows, which would be every > bit as crufty and unreliable as MS Windows NT and 98 are now. No, I don't think so. If FSF started on anything so foolish (very doubtful proposition), under the terms of the GPL there would be a split and something better would be done from the previous code base and the world would not end. The FSF _doesn't_ own everything covered by the GPL. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From terryf at intersurf.com Mon Mar 8 21:49:42 1999 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: SWTPC and NETRONICS Parts In-Reply-To: <19990308.212153.277.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990308214918.0097f490@mail.intersurf.com> At 09:21 PM 3/8/99 -0600, you wrote: >I could use the MP-A2, how much you asking? > > >Jeff > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] OOOOPS already gone Sorry TWF From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 8 21:55:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990309035500.16901.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Anyway, the list included the first workstation (Alto), Are you sure about that? I thought the first workstation was the IBM Autopoint computer (Type 610), introduced in 1954 [*]. Unless you count the IBM CPC, 1940. And _History of Personal Workstations_ seems to classify the HP 9100 (1968) as a workstation. Oh, did you mean graphical workstation? Then maybe it was the DEC GT40, introduced in 1972. Never mind, no one ever agrees on these "firsts". Eric [*] That's the date listed in several online sources, but I'm not sure it is correct. Definitely not any ealier than 1954, and probably not later than 1958. From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 8 22:06:46 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <199903082339.QAA08788@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > geeks will run Linux or BeOS on PCs because the platform will continue to be > less expensive, but the real consumer and small business worlds will be owned > by Macintosh. Between Macos X for servers and Macos 8.whatever for desktop > clients, IMHO if apple plays their cards right they can own those two VERY > lucrative markets. Real geeks will not be switching back to dependence on closed source. "How can you keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree". -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 8 23:35:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990308193325.3dc781ea@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990308233529.2507ff4c@intellistar.net> At 01:07 AM 3/9/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> >> >That's it... > >> an IC in A3? If so can you tell me the type? Is there supposed to be > >Here's a full list of the chips : > >A1 7404 >A2 7400 >A3 7400 OK thanks >A4 74174 >A5 8224 >A6 8216 >A7 8216 >A8 8080 >A9-A12 2111 >A13 74LS05 >A14 74LS155 >A15 1702 (KEX monitor) >A16 1702 (Optional) Any idea what goes here, or is it just available for user programming? >A17 74LS05 >A18 74L42 >A19 7402 >A20 74L04 >A21 74L04 >A22 7404 >A23 7494 >A24 7475 (missing, but I am _sure_ that's what goes there) Yes, that's what's in mine. >A25 7475 >A26 7475 >A27 7475 >A28 7475 >A29 7475 >A30 7400 >A31 74365 >A32 74148 >A33 74148 > >> something mounted to the left of the keyboard? Mine is barren but there >> are screw holes there. > >Yes. There's a solderless breadmobard that goes there. It appears to have >connections to the bus as well... Can you tell me the details of connections? Is that what the circuit runs above the LED are supposed to connect to? Joe > >-tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 8 21:58:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <19990309035500.16901.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 9, 99 03:55:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 810 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/ec4234dc/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Mar 8 22:22:08 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: FW: Free PDP-11/34A in Germany Message-ID: <36e4a1a8.1415724033@smtp.jps.net> Don't know if we have any subscribers in or near Germany, but... If so, this may be worth a shot. Contact the owner directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- From: "Norbert Gmeinwieser" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: PDP11/34A for free Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:55:55 +0100 Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: kons57.swol.de Message-ID: <36e43894@news.swol.de> X-Trace: 8 Mar 1999 21:52:36 +0100, kons57.swol.de Organization: personal X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.238.142.105 Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp.flash.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!195.99.66.215!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!news.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news.swol.de!kons57.swol.de Xref: news1.jps.net alt.sys.pdp11:950 Because of lack of time I would like to give my PDP11 in good hands. Location: South Germany, Konstanz The following modules are installed: KD11-EA M8266,M8265 FP11-A M8267 Bootstrap ROM M9301YF Prog. Console M7859 MOS Memory 248K (not DEC !) RX11 Unibus M7846, (2 Drives #0,#1 in a box = RX01) DL11/W SLU/RTC M7856 Tape Drive TS03 M7911,M7912,M7821,M796,M105,M795 RK11-D Control. M7254,M7255,M7256,M7257 some Unibus connectors M9202,M920 Bus Terminator M9302 Complete in a 19" * 71" cabinet 2 RK05J drives are mounted - one with a deffective blower motor. additional: * a complete box BA?? with memory,CPU, RK05 controller can be used as spare parts. * other spare parts: CPU and RK11 Control - boards only * media : may be 100 8" floppy disks, ~10 decpack for RK05J * OS: RT11, floppy set for RT11-03 (one with read errors), fortran 4 (not tested) last power on time was some years (~3) ago. any questions to: NorbertGmeinwieser@swol.de -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 22:25:04 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax Message-ID: <199903090425.AA08707@world.std.com> >Thanks Megan! Any time... glad to help... >It turned out that when I removed the Viking tape card to inspect it I >re-inserted it backward (no ears on that one). That meant the RQ11 >wouldn't fit in slot 6 and that meant an empty slot. Whoops... I've done that once before (*once*) >Q1) So how badly does it toast things in the Q-bus to be backwards in >slots A-B ? >Q2) Do all empty slots need to have bus grant boards? Let me answer like this... In a BA123: o The Qbus passes direct from slot1/ab to slot4/ab o For slots 5-12, it does the serpentine (4/cd, 5/cd, 5/ab, 6/ab, 6/cd, etc) o All dual boards must be placed at some point in the serpentine. For slots 1-4, this means AB. For slots 5-12, this can be either AB or CD. o Quad boards which are not for CD, must go in slots 5-12 o For quad boards which can be either CD or Q/CD, the jumpers on-board must be set for the slot you are placing it in (there should be a couple of jumpers which are removed if the board is placed in a Q/CD slot, and installed if it is placed in a Q/Q slot) o For quad boards which can only go in Q/Q, they may only be placed in slots 5-12. o If you follow the serpentine, there should be no empty Qbus slots between the processor and the last board in the bus (there are exceptions, but for now regard it as a hard and fast rule). o For any gaps in the serpentine, you should install a M9047 That's it in a nutshell. For a BA23, the critical numbers are slots 1-3 == Q/CD, 4-8 == Q/Q Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 8 22:31:54 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <36E48D40.398B5F49@idirect.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990308203052.00a18100@mcmanis.com> Cool, so if I want to "upgrade" my uVAX II with a M7555 (RQDX3) what do I need (besides the board and some ribbon cables?) --Chuck From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Mar 8 22:24:05 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: FW: PDP-11/70's - Now you can owe one of these great work horses In-Reply-To: <36E453B9.E69B85EE@jps.net> References: <36E453B9.E69B85EE@jps.net> Message-ID: <36e5a225.1415848993@smtp.jps.net> My God... and now we've got free PDP-11/70's in California. With SCSI, no less! Grab 'em while you can! -=-=- -=-=- On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:48:25 -0800, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>Message-ID: <36E453B9.E69B85EE@jps.net> >>Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 14:48:25 -0800 >>From: "E.B. Lieberman" >>Organization: Bank of America >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.rsts,comp.os.vms >>Subject: PDP-11/70's - Now you can owe one of these great work horses >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.239.202.39 >>X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.239.202.39 >>X-Trace: 8 Mar 1999 23:14:51 -0800, 209.239.202.39 >>Lines: 60 >>X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.63.224.240 >>Path: news1.jps.net!209.239.202.39 >>Xref: news1.jps.net alt.sys.pdp11:952 comp.os.rsts:69 comp.os.vms:21006 >> >>Now you can own a PDP-11/70! Yep, that's right. >> >> I'm not talking about those little 11/8x and 11/9x Q-bus jobs. >> I'm talking about the real thing; you know with MASSBUS and all. >> >>A global financial institution, previously headquartered in Northern >>California, is getting ready to say goodbye to the last of its >>PDP-11/70's. These machines (there are eight of them), were used as >>message store and forward switches for nearly 20 years. Great minds >>have tried to count the number of times the world wide GNP have flowed >>through these systems; and failed !!! >> >>Each CPU has roughly the same configuration as follows: >> >> QED 11/70 processor upgrade with 4Mb memory plus cache running at >>multiple VUP speeds. >> (Wow, faster than a 11/780, VAX engineering - eat your hearts >>out); >> >> Two System Industries CLUSTOR III MASSBUS disk controllers with 16 >>Seagate 1.0 Gig drives >> built with SMD interfaces. Ten drives are fixed while the remaining >>are in removable >> canisters; >> >> One Fujitsu 2480M/3480 SCSI tape drive (emulates a TU81) plus >>SCSI-UNIBUS controller; >> >> One TE16 or TU16 magtape drive (MASSBUS); >> >> Two DV-11's with modem control (16 channel sync or async adapters) >>and custom drivers >> set up for a variation on IBM BISYNC; >> >> Three DZ-11's and an ETHERNET DELUA; >> >> Plus software to show you that all hardware components are >>functional; >> >>Did I say eight (8) CPU's? There's more !! >>For a short time only, we can throw in tons of spares that include: >> >> More QED's, SETASI memory (2Mb and 4Mb), more DV-11's, more DZ-11's, >>full 11/70 CPU kits, >> DH-11's, DHQ-11's, 50-60 extra Seagate drives, as described above, >>in removable canisters, >> 24 or so extra SI CLUSTOR controllers, 3 to its own 19" rack. >> >>Am I finished? No way !!! >> >> I'll even throw in a few RP06 disk packs. The platters are great >>for making Frisbee's out of >> (kids, don't play with these without adult supervision). >> >> Boxes of hardware manuals and even a TECO manual (the first real >>editor that today still has the >> best macro generator going). >> >>So if you are interested in taking the entire lot (en masse), then drop >>me a line and we can talk about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Mar 8 22:26:51 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 08, 1999 11:06:46 PM Message-ID: <199903090426.VAA10183@calico.litterbox.com> > > On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > geeks will run Linux or BeOS on PCs because the platform will continue to be > > less expensive, but the real consumer and small business worlds will be owned > > by Macintosh. Between Macos X for servers and Macos 8.whatever for desktop > > clients, IMHO if apple plays their cards right they can own those two VERY > > lucrative markets. > > Real geeks will not be switching back to dependence on closed source. > "How can you keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree". Heh. For the same reasion I might. Because a well integrated, easy to use client box (in addition to a good linux box) is nicer for the desktop. You make a good point though. But this is dangerously close to comp.os.*.advocacy, so we should probably take this discussion to private e-mail. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 22:28:07 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question Message-ID: <199903090428.AA12101@world.std.com> >Is it impossible to use an RQDX2 on the Q-bus side of a DW11-B? I've run >a Unibus machine (an 11/45) with an RLV11, IBV11, MINC modules, etc on >the other side of a DW11-B with no problems. > >Never heard of it being done, but it might be fun to try.... I've never tried it myself, but if I had an 11/84, I would... I might just try having the cpu, mem, mem and a DELQA in the qbus part... But then, it has been a while since I last saw the insides of an 11/84 (I built one from parts found in the halls of the DEC Mill for use by the RT-11 development group way back when... We hadn't yet been able to requisition one, but had to support it anyway :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 22:30:03 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <199903090430.AA14137@world.std.com> >After I get it built and have a chance to grok and run a few laps in it, >I'll let you *BORROW* it if you wish... Sorry... once I get my mits around hardware, it is hard to pry it away from me... :-) Thanks, I'll look for one of my own... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 22:50:28 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax Message-ID: <199903090450.AA28753@world.std.com> Darn, there was a mistake... so I had to redo it... - - - - - Let me answer like this... In a BA123: o The Qbus passes direct from slot1/ab to slot4/ab o For slots 5-12, it does the serpentine (5/ab, 5/cd, 6/cd, 6/ab, 7/ab, 7/cd, etc...) o All dual boards must be placed at some point in the serpentine. For slots 1-4, this means AB. For slots 5-12, this can be either AB or CD. o Quad boards which may not go in CD must go in slots 5-12 o For quad boards which can be either CD or Q/CD, the jumpers on-board must be set for the slot you are placing it in (there should be a couple of jumpers which are removed if the board is placed in a Q/CD slot, 1-4, and installed if it is placed in a Q/Q slot, 5-12) o For quad boards which can only go in Q/Q, they may only be placed in slots 5-12. o If you follow the serpentine, there should be no empty Qbus slots between the processor and the last board in the bus (there are exceptions, but for now regard it as a hard and fast rule). o For any gaps in the serpentine, you should install a M9047 o The RQDX1 is a mutant, since it doesn't pass any grant signals, it must be the last board in the bus o The RQDX2 tried to correct this, but didn't quite - it must be the last DMA device in the backplane... Non-DMA boards *can* be placed after it That's it in a nutshell. For a BA23, the critical numbers are slots 1-3 == Q/CD, 4-8 == Q/Q. There are also some backplanes with Q/CD in all slots, and some which are Q/Q in all slots. Know thy backplane! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 8 23:02:52 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: SWTPC and NETRONICS Parts In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990308210252.00a868b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:13 PM 3/8/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Hello folks: > > HEADS UP FOR COLLECTORS > > I have the following items. If anyone is interested, drop me an email, if >not they will go to eBay. I must stress that I would consider these "PARTS >ONLY", I do not intend to represent them as any thing in working condition. > While they may work, they are AS IS! > >SWTPC: > > AC-30 Tape interface (dual tape IIRC) card > MP-A2 CPU card > SSB M-16-A Memory card > MP-LA Com (IIRC) card > MP-B Motherboard > MP-P Power supply card (cap and bridge included) > Lower Case Half (front, rear, and bottom pan -- Faceplate and 2 buttons >included) I'd be interested in the SWTPC item(s?). Does the below imply a price for the lot or per card? > These items will go to eBay at < $10.00 each if nobody snags em first, the >dumpster if nobody grabs them there. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mikeparadiso at worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 8 22:56:24 1999 From: mikeparadiso at worldnet.att.net (MICHAEL PARADISO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Looking for a Versatec boot disk Message-ID: <018201be69e9$2fefe560$088c480c@p133> I recently picked up an old Versatec 8536 electrostatic plotter at a Hughes auction. When I inspected it, all the disks were there. A week later when I picked it up, as you might guess, all the 3.5" disks were gone. I am now looking for a set of disks to copy or purchase. Call Mike at 323 462-5772 or email mikeparadiso@worldnet.att.net From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 8 23:07:32 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax References: Message-ID: <199903090507.AA09441@world.std.com> >Cool, so if I want to "upgrade" my uVAX II with a M7555 (RQDX3) what do I >need (besides the board and some ribbon cables?) You'll need the RQDX3, an RQDXE (which plugs into a slot beyond slot12 in the BA123), a cable to connect the two, cables to connect the RQDXE to the RD series drives, and another cable (like the one which connects a DLV11-J to a 4-line distribution panel) to connect the RQDXE to the RD ready/writeprotect buttons on the front of the BA123... (If you don't have these, you'll need them as well) Some judicious reordering of the backplane to adhere to the module placement rules, and it should work... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 8 23:09:07 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Help, yet again... Message-ID: <01be69ea$f565b620$e6c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Sorry... once I get my mits around hardware, it is hard to pry it >away from me... :-) Your husband must be very happy. ;) OK, you don't get to borrow it, but I'll look out for a second one with you in mind. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 8 23:28:26 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: SWTPC and NETRONICS Parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990308210252.00a868b0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990308212826.00d9a9e0@agora.rdrop.com> >> >> HEADS UP FOR COLLECTORS >> .... Aw, krellboing! That was not supposed to go to the list... Sorry. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 9 00:39:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308203052.00a18100@mcmanis.com> References: <36E48D40.398B5F49@idirect.com> Message-ID: >Cool, so if I want to "upgrade" my uVAX II with a M7555 (RQDX3) what do I >need (besides the board and some ribbon cables?) > >--Chuck You are joking about wanting to "upgrade" aren't you? The only reason I can think of to do that is to attach a RX50, since you've already got a very good ESDI controller. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 9 00:58:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990308212748.00981c70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > 1. His keyboard from the sounds of it, is (at best) *seriously* wounded. It > wasn't working due to sticky keys and took it to an "expert" who profusely > coated the keyboard with silicone lubricant, which (of course) didn't help. > > --- Can you tear down a //c keyboard, or is it one of those "plastic-rivet" > held throwaway types? I have rebuilt several Tandy CoCo 1/2/3 keyboards... > is a //c keyboard even remotely similar? Or... does anyone have a spare > keyboard they're willing to sell for a reasonable price? The //c keyboard wants to be torn down and rebuilt. It had these ridiculous metal hinges attached to each one to give them their feel. After a while the hinges go bad and start making the keys stick. So the solution is to lift the keycaps and remove each hinge. The click will be gone but the keyboard will be much nicer to type on. > 2. He's got some software on disks that (i believe) he's assuming are > unreadable. He speaks of the disks being dirty & worn, but doesn't actually > mention that he's attemted and failed to see if they still work. He is > willing to purchase new (if possible) disks of this software, which he's > not sure what it was called... but he says it was the word processor and > spelling checker from "border bond" [sic] software... which I'm assuming > would be "Broderbund." He cannot remember the actual titles, but he says he > has the original disks, so I do have access to them if necessary. Sounds like Bank Street Writer. I don't know why he'd want to use that. It was terrible in my opinion. Tell him he wants APpleWorks instead. Integrated word processor, spread sheet and database. A much nicer package, and in 80-columns too (Bank Street Writer was implemented as 40 characters in the hi-res mode). > *Any* help or information at all on this project would be most appreciated, > so thank you all in advance. I'd be happy to help him out. Give him my e-mail address and we'll take it from there. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 01:21:09 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: PDP-11 (Qbus) disk question In-Reply-To: <199903090428.AA12101@world.std.com> (mbg@world.std.com) References: <199903090428.AA12101@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990309072109.18011.qmail@brouhaha.com> Megan wrote: > I've never tried it myself, but if I had an 11/84, I would... I > might just try having the cpu, mem, mem and a DELQA in the qbus > part... I didn't think there were any spare Qbus slots in an 11/84. But then, that wouldn't stop a sufficiently determined hacker. :-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 02:08:36 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990308203052.00a18100@mcmanis.com> <36E48D40.398B5F49@idirect.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309000519.00a0e7a0@mcmanis.com> At 10:39 PM 3/8/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >You are joking about wanting to "upgrade" aren't you? The only reason I >can think of to do that is to attach a RX50, since you've already got a >very good ESDI controller. Yes, the only reason I want to add the RQDX3 is to have a monitor prom supported bootable device with removable media. One of the uVax has the Exabyte on it (I don't know if the Viking will boot it or not) and the other has no media at all (although it does have a TK50 controller so if I could find a TK50 drive that would work.) I'm going to try to net-boot NetBSD on it since I don't have any other VAXen to cluster it with. If that is successful then perhaps it won't be such a big deal, but I dislike computers that have a fairly high infrastructure overhead before you can get them running. --Chuck From russmiller at jps.net Tue Mar 9 03:11:34 1999 From: russmiller at jps.net (Russ Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990309011041.006f2b9c@jps.net> >> HP machines at the last VCF?). But if TI puts bids out, then they care even >> less than I thought. Unless they have some perverse internal bid system? > >No, that's TI bidding the calculators to school districts. Obviously >they have to build what their customers want. I think 'bid specifications' have nothing to do with what customers want. It is boilerplate to be included in specifications for competitive bidding which will exclude other similar products. I've seen this done - you pick some irrelevant, but unique, features of the product you want to buy. Maybe you can avoid competitive bidding altogether by writing a sole-source justification. TI is just streamlining the acquisition process. Russ From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Mar 9 04:48:15 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: More HP manuals (some new, some previously posted) References: <00b401be69c8$fd4cd840$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <36E4FC6F.8CC30758@hotoffice.com> Jay, I've got a HP3000 and can use this stuff... I'll send my address in private email and we can work something out. Thanks, Steve Robertson Jay West wrote: > > Was cleaning out the manual shelf again... > > The following manuals are available free to a good home (yes, the titles are > exact, if not long): > > Magnetic tape diagnostic nine-track 7970/13181 > Maintenance manual 30032B asynchronous terminal controller for HP3000 > computer systems > Maintenance manual 30115A nine-track (NRZI-PE) magnetic tape subsystem for > HP3000 computer systems > Installation and service manual model 7905a cartridge disc subsystem for > HP3000 computer systems > Installation and service manual 40018A plenum assembly > Installation and service manual model 13037A disc controller > Operating and service manual 7970B/7970C digital magnetic tape units > Operating and service manual 7970B/7970C digital magnetic tape units > > There is two of the last title. > > These are all manuals I have no use for or have duplicates of. Please - > someone take them! > > Jay West From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 9 08:25:15 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: More HP manuals (some new, some previously posted) Message-ID: <009a01be6a38$a6cfc660$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Note - the following item... >> Magnetic tape diagnostic nine-track 7970/13181 This is the manual for the diagnostic, not the diagnostic itself! Jay West From emu at ecubics.com Tue Mar 9 08:55:21 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax Message-ID: <19990309145530.AAA9806@1Cust83.tnt19.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Chuck McManis > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: YANU - uVax > Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 1:08 AM > > At 10:39 PM 3/8/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >You are joking about wanting to "upgrade" aren't you? The only reason I > >can think of to do that is to attach a RX50, since you've already got a > >very good ESDI controller. I have all the controllers/rx50 ... I never used it. ESDI disks are easy to get, more capacity, .... > Yes, the only reason I want to add the RQDX3 is to have a monitor prom > supported bootable device with removable media. One of the uVax has the > Exabyte on it (I don't know if the Viking will boot it or not) and the > other has no media at all (although it does have a TK50 controller so if I > could find a TK50 drive that would work.) A TK50 is cheap, and you can boot from. > I'm going to try to net-boot NetBSD on it since I don't have any other > VAXen to cluster it with. If that is successful then perhaps it won't be > such a big deal, but I dislike computers that have a fairly high > infrastructure overhead before you can get them running. ?!?!?!?! Sorry, i have 2-3 uVax here, all of them have only cpu/mem/ethernet. All of them are working fine. "infrastructure overhead" ???? just my .0002 cents. cheers, emanuel From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Mar 9 09:13:16 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990309091316.0092e5d0@texas.net> >> Linux will do some damage in the server market and other places where you >> have to have someone with some computer smarts but, most corporate purse >> strings are again controlled by those same 'click-idiots'. > >A lot of corporations are switching to Linux for servers. Are you saying >that the server purchases are controlled by different purse strings than >the desktop machines, or are you saying that even 'click-idiots' realize >that Linux is better for servers? No, I was saying that the unfortunate trend so far is that MIS people have to sneek Linux boxes into corporate systems because the pencil-headed, managers (who are 'click-idiots') are scared to use Linux. >> I really wish GNU would take a good command line OS (like CP/M), make it >> 32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with >> Winblows. > >Aside from being based on CP/M (which is actually in most regards even a more >feeble excuse for an operating system than MS-DOS), how is what you're >proposing any different than Linux with Gnome (or KDE)? > >Why do you think CP/M is a better base than Linux? Actually, I like them both for what they are. CP/M is nice because it is simple. No libraries, no shared files, all files that are needed for an application are usually in one directory and not strewn across the directory structure. (But, it doesn't TCP/IP. DAMN!) Linux on the other hand is GREAT for it's multi-user, multi-tasking and networking abilities! I love every one of my Linux boxes! But, it is a flavor of Unix and therefore has endless numbers of library files (that somehow are never the right version) and an application's needed support files are strewn across 50 different directories. >I actually *like* CP/M, for what it was designed and intended for. >I just think that trying to add bags on the side in an attempt to turn it >into a "real system" will only result in a nasty kludge with lots of bags >on the side. After all, that's exactly how the Microsoft stuff got to >where it is today. So if GNU started today on a project like you're >proposing, in 18 years we would have GNU Windows, which would be every >bit as crufty and unreliable as MS Windows NT and 98 are now. My wish is not a kludge of CP/M. I used CP/M as an example but, if you were going to use CP/M, I'd wish for a total new re-write with all the features I wanted built in. >On the other hand, by improving the Linux installation process, the Gnome >or KDE desktops, and adding support for more hardware, the Linux user >experience can be made just as compelling as Windows is now. Nope! Linux is still to hard for the average user. There are too many different flavor of libraries (GLIBC2 vs. LIBC5 as an example). Windows has the advantage of having (for the most part) only one version of necessary DLLs. Linux will never match the ease of Windows because if it did, half of Linux's attractiveness (the user configurability) will be lost. IMHO Arfon From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Mar 9 09:56:24 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Will the owner... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990309075624.009518c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> ...of the Rhode Island Computer Museum please speak up? I'm trying to record your payment for the Teledisk group buy, but I cannot match your check with a person's name or E-mail addy. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From william at ans.net Tue Mar 9 10:08:19 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Will the owner... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990309075624.009518c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: > ...of the Rhode Island Computer Museum please speak up? I'm trying to > record your payment for the Teledisk group buy, but I cannot match your > check with a person's name or E-mail addy. RCS/RI? That would be me or Allison, I think. I know nothing about the Teledisk deal... William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 9 10:16:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Will the owner... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > > ...of the Rhode Island Computer Museum please speak up? I'm trying to > > record your payment for the Teledisk group buy, but I cannot match your > > check with a person's name or E-mail addy. > > RCS/RI? That would be me or Allison, I think. I know nothing about the > Teledisk deal... > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net It's not me either as I would not do it under the RCS/RI label. Also I'm not a teleldisk user (other than the general shareware version thats around) as I prefer to use PUTR ot the various disk drivers for PCs like RX50. I generally dont have much need for teledisk or it's like and kind. It's easier for me to use a real(TM) CP/M, DEC, KAYPRO, AMPRO, NS*, SB180 or VISUAL system. Allison From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Tue Mar 9 10:23:26 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: HP-85 belts/Capstan repair Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6BA@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Michael - I was part of the HP-85 belt group buy (5 sets,) but I can't find your note with the total owed and mailing address to send payment. Would you please resend the info to me? Thanks! -- Tony Eros 2105 Anson Road Wilmington, DE 19810 -----Original Message----- From: Michael Grigoni [SMTP:msg@computerpro.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 3:46 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: HP-85 belts/Capstan repair Greetings to all: Since I've been absent for about a week, 800 messages have piled-up from the list; reviewing them will take awhile so I'm posting this to report on the HP-85 belt/capstan issues status globally. The belts have arrived and are being mailed-out early this week. I installed a set in our HP-85 and they work well. I tried a new approach to capstan repair which I find works very well. Clean the capstan of old rubber down to a minimal amount of residue with isopropyl. Obtain a can of dipping vinyl (for coating tool handles, etc.); most hardware stores should have it. Remove the capstan/encoder wheel ass'y from the motor shaft. Prepare the vinyl properly according to directions with the product. Dip the capstan (inverted) at the rate of about 5 seconds for its length, being careful to just dip just above the bottom rim of the capstan wheel so that the vinyl creates an overlap of 90 degrees. Withdraw the part at the same rate as insertion. Immediately invert the part and place on a level surface in a warm place to dry for four hours. During the drying time you will note that any vertical asymmetry evens out. Repeat with another dip and 4 hour dry. The results were very good and tests with an old tape containing an 84 record program produced no errors (reading or writing). Attached is a small jpg which gives an idea of the appearance of the results (max mag. avail with the camera lens). Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum << File: CAPSTAN2.JPG >> From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Mar 9 10:29:49 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: WAY OT: Re: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990309091316.0092e5d0@texas.net> References: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990309102949.0093f100@texas.net> Sellam: >Yeah, you're right. All Linux development will stop dead right now, >nothing will be improved and everyone involved will forever leave Linux as >it is right now because why bother? Oh, and those fancy point and click >gooey's that people have already created like kde and StarOffice? Just >ignore them, they are mirages. No, Linux will be around for a good long time. People will continute to contribute and commercial software people will continue to port. Jim: >geeks will run Linux or BeOS on PCs because the platform will continue to be >less expensive, but the real consumer and small business worlds will be owned >by Macintosh. Between Macos X for servers and Macos 8.whatever for desktop >clients, IMHO if apple plays their cards right they can own those two VERY >lucrative markets. I don't think so because Apple has never learned from their mistakes. They let IBM/PC compatibles take the market from them because they: 1) Would not freely release the Mac's specifications for people to emulate/make products for. 2) Kept the expandability for the Macs very limited (at least for the early Macs). 3) Kept the Mac's (and peripherials) prices high. 4) Limited the cloning of the Mac. I can see that they still haven't learned. They revoked the various licenses from PowerComputing and others that made better versions of the Mac (can't have competition). They have come out with the iMac (what a god-awful machine that is) and it's not upgradable and it's over priced (I can buy a new Pentium II PC for ~$700.00 where as the iMacs are going for ~$1000.00)! I'm sorry if it sounds like I am being rude (I am not) I just hate to see Apple continue to go down the same path that has been killing them. Allison: >I'm a CP/m advocate but that really doesn't fly. First there are CP/M >emulators for Linux already. The other is CP/M was never a prime time >candidate for a GUI thing being totally single user and single tasking, >the later CCPM may have had a shot. > >To keep closer to topic. Those that forget CP/M and what it was will >forever repeat it's errors. It was good, is good and limited. The lack >of heirachal directories is a serious limitation for modern software >another is the size of disk and files (8mb in 2.2, 3.0 got it to 32mb). >The single thread and single task problem would have to be dealt with >as well. Then all the apps one would want would have to be ported from >Z80 or worse 8088. I said "like CP/M". I didn't mean CP/M. I wish for a totally newly rewritten 32/64 bit command line based OS that has a GUI and networking built in and is multi-tasking and multi-user and whose specs are freely distributed and is covereld . -------------------------- Cold hard fact: Linux will never defeat Windows (in the consumer market) because the average non-computer person is intimidated by it and it's too complex for them. Who ever dominates the consumer market, dominates the industry because of the sheer numbers. Linux will always be splintered (various distributions, various desktops and various setups) because it's open. IMHO -------------------------- Back to On-topic... How about the HP2100 emulators... Anyone know how to get it to work? http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/index.html Arfon From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Mar 9 10:33:44 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990309091316.0092e5d0@texas.net> References: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> Okay, I have some old computer manuals and I just bought a scanner...... Anyone care to suggest the best way to convert these manuals to electronic form and not take up HUGE amounts of memory? Thanks, Arfon From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 10:38:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <990309113838.202003cc@trailing-edge.com> >Actually, I like them both for what they are. CP/M is nice because it is >simple. No libraries, no shared files, all files that are needed for an >application are usually in one directory and not strewn across the >directory structure. (But, it doesn't TCP/IP. DAMN!) > >Linux on the other hand is GREAT for it's multi-user, multi-tasking and >networking abilities! I love every one of my Linux boxes! But, it is a >flavor of Unix and therefore has endless numbers of library files (that >somehow are never the right version) and an application's needed support >files are strewn across 50 different directories. You make the "real world" sound like it's a competition between Microsoft products and Unix-derived products. In reality, there are many OS's out there which fall into neither category and are more than capable (and in all cases more capable than Unix-like or Microsoft OS's) to do the real-world jobs that they do. And many of these OS's run quite nicely on classic hardware, to boot. Anyone who thinks that the OS issue is entirely limited to Unix-alikes vs Microsoft vs CP/M is putting on a very limiting set of blinders as to what is out there doing the real work in banks, offices, factories, labs, and hospitals. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Tue Mar 9 10:50:00 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Sorry... Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6BC@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Sheesh! Don't you just hate it when someone replies to the whole list instead of the one relevant person? Even worse, when they waste even more bandwidth and email space with useless "whole list" apologies! :-) -- Tony From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 9 11:52:02 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <199903081618.IAA15516@shell2.aracnet.com> References: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Mar 8, 99 08:59:35 am Message-ID: <199903091653.RAA00763@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Ok, this is bugging me so I'm going to finally ask.... > > I know what most of the standard abbreviations are (AFAIK, IMHO, BTW, > > etc...) > > What is IIRC?????? :) > "If I Remember Correctly" there really needs to be a FAQ on all these > abbreviations. It took me quite a while to figure out "AFAIK". Thats a relive - I always belived all (US-)English people know this AküFi stuff right from the day they are born :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Tue Mar 9 10:55:15 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Sorry... In-Reply-To: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6BC@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Message-ID: > Sheesh! Don't you just hate it when someone replies to the whole list > instead of the one relevant person? Even worse, when they waste even more > bandwidth and email space with useless "whole list" apologies! :-) Or pointless Linux talk... William Donzelli william@ans.net From jim at ezol.com Tue Mar 9 11:01:46 1999 From: jim at ezol.com (jim@ezol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals Message-ID: <009D4DAD.119C2BA2.459@ezol.com> >Okay, > > I have some old computer manuals and I just bought a scanner...... Anyone >care to suggest the best way to convert these manuals to electronic form >and not take up HUGE amounts of memory? I'm looking for insight on this as well... I've been experimenting with various ways to convert my old manuals and listings to electronic form with mixed results. It is not as easy as it might seem. The first problem is how labor intensive this is. Just a 100 page manual could take hours to scan front and back of every page. A scanner with a GOOD sheet feeder that doesn't skew the pages would be very desirable here. Next, is how to balance the text content with the graphical content of the pages. Do you leave the pages as a scanned image? Or do you try to OCR them? Leaving them as a scanned image is the easy way out, but isn't always practical. Some pages I have have very small print, and the resolution of the image required to make this text readable makes for huge files. I have attempted to OCR several of my manuals, but this is labor intensive as well, since the OCR dictionary seems ignorant to any technical term or abbriviation, and the formatting of the pages gives it fits too. What is the answer? I have a huge pile of old, hard to find docs that I am eager to put in electronic form for many reasons... ease of access, sharing with others, preserving hard to find information, getting some space back that's currently occupied by a mountain of books..... >Thanks, > >Arfon Thanks, Jim From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 9 11:19:07 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <000801be6a50$f0f70100$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I just uploaded the schematics as published in Radio Electronics in May 1976 it's at : www.pclink.com/fauradon under the tech info page. Francois >I picked up an 8080 bread board trainer made by E&L Instruments this >weekend. Does anyone have a manual for it? > > Joe > From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Mar 9 11:30:13 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <009D4DAD.119C2BA2.459@ezol.com> Message-ID: So far... the best results I have obtained (in experiments) has been to *photograph* the pages, then scan the photos... I am using 35mm film, but I would imagine that the newer hi-res digital cameras would work as well. I will post some of these scanned docs on my website when I get a Round Tuit. I use a page-sized piece of 1/2" glass to smooth the page... works for sheets as well as bound material, then a cheesy copy stand with some photo-grade lamps. A tripod would work too. I gave up on the OCR for the reasons set forth in the previous posts. Cheers John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 11:35:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <19990309145530.AAA9806@1Cust83.tnt19.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:55 AM 3/9/99 -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: >I have all the controllers/rx50 ... >I never used it. ESDI disks are easy to get, more capacity, .... I know, I've got a nice ESDI controller. >A TK50 is cheap, and you can boot from. And the source is ... ? (I wrote: ... I dislike computers that have a fairly high infrastructure overhead before you can get them running. >?!?!?!?! >Sorry, i have 2-3 uVax here, all of them have only cpu/mem/ethernet. All of >them are working fine. "infrastructure overhead" ???? In order to use a diskless uVax you need a MOP server, an ethernet, and a disk image stored on the network. That is "relatively high overhead". In order to use a PDP-8 you don't need anything but the computer that is "zero overhead." My point was that at some point I will pass this computer on to another caretaker and that person may need to re-format, reboot, re-install, etc and I would like to be able to hand off everything needed to do that. --Chuck From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Mar 9 11:32:43 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Okay, > > I have some old computer manuals and I just bought a scanner...... Anyone > care to suggest the best way to convert these manuals to electronic form > and not take up HUGE amounts of memory? > I'd like to second this notion. Could those on this list, who are scanning for posterity, share their methods? What platform(s), what hardware(s), what software(s). Any intermediary format(s), final output format(s). Whatever it takes. I am especially puzzled by dpi. Seems everybody in the world is scanning at 600 or over. I am contemplating using a Hewlett Packard at 300 and from some test scans, including pictures, I am hard pressed to tell the difference between 2 and 3 hundred. Extremely high numbers coupled with millions of colors (where applicable) seem to me to be just a waste of storage space. [I note Jim Stricklan's reply came in while writing this. I have scanned down to newspaper legal notice size. Is this 6 point? It OCRed virtually identically at 200 or 300 dpi and the results were high 90%] I am also interested in what people are using to descreen/despeckle material that was printed using a screen. Are there any third party ways to do it or am I dependent on the scanning software? If there is other software, are they any more successful than what I have seen? Nothing elaborate. Just a short paragraph or two summary of technique. I realize that these summaries could be considered somewhat off topic, but I don't think it is a major hazard, given the traffic on the list in recent days. Certainly, there may be particular peculiarities involved with the material we are saving and I am hoping any respondents will specifically address this. -- Stephen Dauphin From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 9 12:54:02 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: CP/M (was: Interesting to note about Altairs...) In-Reply-To: <199903090244.AA17114@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903091755.SAA07269@horus.mch.sni.de> > <32/64 bit, and multi-tasking/user and add a GUI and try and compete with > I'm a CP/m advocate but that really doesn't fly. First there are CP/M > emulators for Linux already. The other is CP/M was never a prime time > candidate for a GUI thing being totally single user and single tasking, > the later CCPM may have had a shot. Don't cary the CP/M flag that low - With 3.0 and GSX CP/M was ready as major player in the GUI world ? What's GEM as used on the ATARI ST other than a bautified CP/M and GSX based system with an added desktop manager ? And I bet nobody will deny that the ST was a major step in the GUI war. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 9 12:00:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: WAY OT: Re: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990309102949.0093f100@texas.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > I said "like CP/M". I didn't mean CP/M. I wish for a totally newly > rewritten 32/64 bit command line based OS that has a GUI and networking > built in and is multi-tasking and multi-user and whose specs are freely > distributed and is covereld . You mean, oh, something perhaps like...LINUX!? > Cold hard fact: Linux will never defeat Windows (in the consumer market) > because the average non-computer person is intimidated by it and it's too > complex for them. Who ever dominates the consumer market, dominates the > industry because of the sheer numbers. Linux will always be splintered > (various distributions, various desktops and various setups) because it's > open. POPPY-COCK! You must forget what you knew in 1996 and move forward in time. Much has changed since then. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 12:06:29 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309100259.00cfadb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:32 PM 3/9/99 -0500, Stephen Dauphin wrote: >I'd like to second this notion. Could those on this list, who are >scanning for posterity, share their methods? I've only done a few, and those on a standard flat bed scanner. >I am especially puzzled by dpi. Seems everybody in the world is scanning >at 600 or over. I am contemplating using a Hewlett Packard at 300 and >from some test scans, including pictures, I am hard pressed to tell the >difference between 2 and 3 hundred. 300 DPI B&W is good for most printed manuals _without_ graphics because it is a 1:1 ratio with what most printers can print. 200 DPI gives you a 2:3 ratio of real pixels to printer pixels and I've seen that introduce banding on the printed output. >I am also interested in what people are using to descreen/despeckle >material that was printed using a screen. Are there any third party ways >to do it or am I dependent on the scanning software? If there is other >software, are they any more successful than what I have seen? I use Corel Scan (its part of the Corel Draw package) >I realize that these summaries could be considered somewhat off topic, >but I don't think it is a major hazard, given the traffic on the list in >recent days. Certainly, there may be particular peculiarities involved >with the material we are saving and I am hoping any respondents will >specifically address this. If I replace my scanner with a USB scanner I will definitely get one that has computer readable buttons on the scanner! My biggest hassle is holding the book while I reach over to press enter to start the scan. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 9 12:14:19 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: Stephen Dauphin "Re: Scanning old manuals" (Mar 9, 12:32) References: Message-ID: <9903091814.ZM18641@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 9, 12:32, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > I'd like to second this notion. Could those on this list, who are > scanning for posterity, share their methods? > > What platform(s), what hardware(s), what software(s). Any intermediary > format(s), final output format(s). Whatever it takes. I, too, would appreciate thoughts on software/platform. > [I note Jim Stricklan's reply came in while writing this. I have scanned > down to newspaper legal notice size. Is this 6 point? It OCRed virtually > identically at 200 or 300 dpi and the results were high 90%] That's not what I'd call "high". That means that on average, you have to correct or interpret every tenth character. I'd call less than 99% "low", not high. Our Department looked at this a few years ago, and rejected anything less than 95%, I think. Even that means correcting (or as one person put it, "clicking on") one character in every twenty. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From william at ans.net Tue Mar 9 12:29:42 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:53 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <9903091814.ZM18641@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > That's not what I'd call "high". That means that on average, you have to > correct or interpret every tenth character. I'd call less than 99% "low", > not high. Our Department looked at this a few years ago, and rejected > anything less than 95%, I think. Even that means correcting (or as one > person put it, "clicking on") one character in every twenty. The best solution for this is to keep the scans AND the OCR'd text. That way, with a simple database, one could do searches on the text, and get most of the hits, yet actually read the images. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Mar 9 12:37:07 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Lost -8? In-Reply-To: <9903091814.ZM18641@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: I came across a reference to a military PDP-8 called AN/GYK-6. Any clues on this? William Donzelli william@ans.net From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 12:50:18 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <009D4DAD.119C2BA2.459@ezol.com> (jim@ezol.com) References: <009D4DAD.119C2BA2.459@ezol.com> Message-ID: <19990309185018.21457.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Leaving them as a scanned image is the easy way out, but isn't always > practical. Some pages I have have very small print, and the resolution > of the image required to make this text readable makes for huge files. For pages that consist solely of text and line art, scan them as 300 DPI TIFF Class F Group 4. That takes only 40-120K per page. I put the resulting images into a PDF file, since most people don't have any other G4-capable reader, and G4 is supported as a native PDF image format. Some people always flame me about disliking PDF because they can't run Acrobat Reader on their Commdore 64, but realisticly I've found that more people have access to Acrobat Reader than any other viewer. My attitude is that if I spend the time to scan the docs and make them available free on my web site, people that don't like it can take a hike. I've written a program using PDFlib to automate creating the PDF from a directory full of G4 files. For greyscale and color images, I'm working on a process to separate out the images, use G4 coding on the monochrome portion of the page, and overlay the images in JPEG format. This will also work nicely with Acrobat reader, since it can support overlaid images, whereas most other viewer software can't. Some results of my scanning can be seen at www.36bit.org. Note that most of those scans were done *before* I got a sheet feeder. In my experience, although there is some skew with the feeder, there is less skew than when I do the pages manually, and the skew is more consistent from page to page. If I get really motivated I'll write some deskewing software. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 12:51:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: (message from John Lawson on Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:30:13 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990309185142.21464.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I gave up on the OCR for the reasons set forth in the previous posts. In the general case, so did I. But Acrobat has a nice feature where it can OCR to "hidden text". It still displays or prints the image, but the document becomes searchable. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 12:54:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:35:55 -0800) References: <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990309185445.21497.qmail@brouhaha.com> > In order to use a PDP-8 you don't need anything but the computer that > is "zero overhead." Sure, if you want to toggle code in on the front panel. You can do that on your uVAX as well. But the front panel is a dumb terminal. Thus for equivalent functionality, you only need one item more than you would on a PDP-8. (OK, two items if you count the serial cable.) You'll probably say that you don't want to type in all of the VMS object code by hand, but I'd venture that you don't really want to toggle in OS/8 either. Eric From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 9 13:01:39 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <19990309185018.21457.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 9, 99 06:50:18 pm Message-ID: <199903091901.LAA09170@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/dad3adb1/attachment.ksh From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Mar 9 13:05:40 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <9903091814.ZM18641@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That's not what I'd call "high". That means that on average, you have to > correct or interpret every tenth character. I'd call less than 99% "low", > not high. Our Department looked at this a few years ago, and rejected > anything less than 95%, I think. Even that means correcting (or as one > person put it, "clicking on") one character in every twenty. > That's not what I meant. I did not study the results closely and so I wrote "high 90%" as a disclaimer to mean something like 98, 98.5, 99, 99.5, or 99.9. Perhaps I should have used the word "range". It seemed to me that I was getting less than 1 to no more than two words per hundred that needed correcting and I don't remember any punctuation or numerical errors. William Donzelli wrote: > The best solution for this is to keep the scans AND the OCR'd text. That > way, with a simple database, one could do searches on the text, and get > most of the hits, yet actually read the images. A good observation, which brings up the question whether anyone has database templates and what database are they using. How does one deal with separate text like sidebars and captions? Should you save an image of the page and individual images in the database along with text? This rules out mych legacy db software. Perhaps keep individual files and database the directory? Anyone using document management software? There seems to be 3 or 4 low priced ones for windows, a couple for the Mac, maybe something for another platform (anything for Linux?) and everything else is stratospherically priced. Chuck McManis wrote: > 300 DPI B&W is good for most printed manuals _without_ graphics because it > is a 1:1 ratio with what most printers can print. 200 DPI gives you a 2:3 > ratio of real pixels to printer pixels and I've seen that introduce banding > on the printed output. 300 dpi is ideal for print. Is that the best ultimate goal - scan at some multiple of 300 (over or under) in order to optimize for eventual printout? -- Stephen Dauphin From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 9 12:00:17 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990308212748.00981c70@mail.30below.com> References: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Message-ID: >I have a friend who says he has an Apple //c that he would like to get >working again. I (of course) told him that I may be able to help in in this Start by taking it apart and giving it a good cleaning. Its just a few screws and a little convincing, and the keyboard comes off as a unit with I think just one more screw inside (which I hope to remember to put back in one of mine next time I open it up). My personal technique for cleaning a keyboard is to hold it upside down (key faces floor) and scrub with a soft soapy brush. The idea is don't get a bunch of soapy crud in the mechanism. I give it a quick rinse, then put in the top rack of the dishwasher (angled for good drainage) and run a rinse cycle with no soap. Let it dry a day or two. Optionally a dose of canned air first to get the bulk of the water out. Blow out the rest of the unit with canned air, then clean the floppy heads with alcohol or real head cleaner if you have it. Anything in a socket, or any connector I wiggle around and reseat. For the carefull or foolish brave remove one at a time and reinsert to clean the contacts. Once everything is good and dry etc. turn it on and see whats good and what isn't. I would not spend more effort than that, they are just too cheap. Reluctant machines become organ donors for the more promising. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 9 12:23:48 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <19990309035500.16901.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Message-ID: >Tony wrote: >> Anyway, the list included the first workstation (Alto), > >Are you sure about that? I thought the first workstation was the IBM >Autopoint computer (Type 610), introduced in 1954 [*]. Unless you count >the IBM CPC, 1940. > >And _History of Personal Workstations_ seems to classify the HP 9100 (1968) >as a workstation. > >Oh, did you mean graphical workstation? Then maybe it was the DEC GT40, >introduced in 1972. > >Never mind, no one ever agrees on these "firsts". What about the Tectronics terminals with vector graphics? I remember playing basketball on one in 74. From jim at ezol.com Tue Mar 9 13:39:52 1999 From: jim at ezol.com (jim@ezol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals Message-ID: <009D4DC3.28099652.21@ezol.com> >> Leaving them as a scanned image is the easy way out, but isn't always >> practical. Some pages I have have very small print, and the resolution >> of the image required to make this text readable makes for huge files. > >For pages that consist solely of text and line art, scan them as 300 DPI >TIFF Class F Group 4. That takes only 40-120K per page. I put the >resulting images into a PDF file, since most people don't have any other >G4-capable reader, and G4 is supported as a native PDF image format. This is what I have been doing.... I gave up on JPG and GIF even though they are directly supported by the major browsers because the image quality wasn't there and file sizes were getting out of hand when attempts were made to preserve image quality. TIFF on the other hand, works well, and is quite compressable. Pretty much consigns you to putting them in a PDF though, which isn't all that evil I suppose. The one attractive thing we loose by creating 60meg PDF files is the ability to browse pages without downloading the entire thing.... Or am I missing something in Acrobat that will pull pages on demand from a table of contents? >Some people always flame me about disliking PDF because they can't run >Acrobat Reader on their Commdore 64, but realisticly I've found that more >people have access to Acrobat Reader than any other viewer. My attitude >is that if I spend the time to scan the docs and make them available >free on my web site, people that don't like it can take a hike. I have no real problem with PDF. I am just trying to reduce my labor investment, and produce quality end results. >I've written a program using PDFlib to automate creating the PDF from a >directory full of G4 files. This sounds rather useful... :-) >For greyscale and color images, I'm working on a process to separate out >the images, use G4 coding on the monochrome portion of the page, and >overlay the images in JPEG format. This will also work nicely with >Acrobat reader, since it can support overlaid images, whereas most other >viewer software can't. This will help a lot too.... >Some results of my scanning can be seen at www.36bit.org. Note that >most of those scans were done *before* I got a sheet feeder. In my >experience, although there is some skew with the feeder, there is less >skew than when I do the pages manually, and the skew is more consistent >from page to page. If I get really motivated I'll write some deskewing >software. What scanner are you using? Your scans look pretty good. Did you do that 500+ page manual by hand or with the sheet feeder? :-) Right now I have a stock HP Scanjet 4C, but am considering investing in a ledger-size scanner with a decent sheet feeder so I can archive not only my manuals, but my printsets as well. >Eric Jim From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 9 13:23:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals Message-ID: <19990309193835654.AAA72@fuj03> I had high hopes of benefitting from my sheet-fed scanner by scanning large software and hardware manuals into machine-readable files and searching them, but it turned out there is no easy way. Most scanner software sets, even the ones costing less than $100 including the scanner, have a "scan to text" mode, which means you lose all the illustrations but get a machine-readable text file. Subsequently, you have to reconnect them to the pictures by composing a new version of the document and inserting the pictures, scanned as line art or as color pictures, with the associated disk-space consumption. Tables, screened half-tones, and other highly structured images, regardless of the fact their content is really text, need to be treated as graphics because of the alignment of the printing grid with the scanner grid. If you scan screened photos, you can get lucky with the pictures, but it is just that . . . LUCK. Normally you have to take the most trouble with screened half-tone pictures. Once the document is scanned and composed, you can compress it and ship it around on the internet as an object. Dick ---------- > From: Arfon Gryffydd > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Scanning old manuals > Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:33 AM > > Okay, > > I have some old computer manuals and I just bought a scanner...... Anyone > care to suggest the best way to convert these manuals to electronic form > and not take up HUGE amounts of memory? > > Thanks, > > Arfon From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 14:00:29 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <19990309185445.21497.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309115735.00bb7620@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Eric, you definitely qualify on this one. Semantically, you are exactly correct as usual. So is there a paper tape OS for the VAX? --Chuck BTW, as an update I got the WQESD to see "see" the disk and I've successfully formatted it and "structured" it. Now to netboot NetBSD to see if UNIX can see it... At 06:54 PM 3/9/99 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Thus for equivalent functionality, you only need one item more than you >would on a PDP-8. (OK, two items if you count the serial cable.) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 9 13:58:35 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: suggestion for list sanity? Message-ID: <199903091958.MAA13454@calico.litterbox.com> I was wondering if it would be possible to add an "OT subgroup" to classiccmp that people can choose to subscribe to or not. That way when something goes as far afield as the operating system discussion or the argument about guns in times past, those who wish to participate can simply agree to post to the off-topic board and not irritate those who don't wish to participate. Might be a good place for auction foo, too, although an additional subgroup for that would also work. Would this be possible, oh list admin? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 14:18:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <009D4DC3.28099652.21@ezol.com> (jim@ezol.com) References: <009D4DC3.28099652.21@ezol.com> Message-ID: <19990309201849.22082.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The one attractive thing we loose by creating 60meg PDF files is the > ability to browse pages without downloading the entire thing.... > Or am I missing something in Acrobat that will pull pages on demand > from a table of contents? If you "optimize" the PDF using Acrobat Exchange 3.0 or newer, and your web server supports HTTP 1.1 byte-serving, and the user has the Acrobat Reader plug-in for the browser, you do get page-at-a-time browsing. I've considered writing a CGI script for my server to construct PDF files of page ranges of documents on-the-fly. But so far I haven't convinced myself that it's worth the trouble. > What scanner are you using? Your scans look pretty good. I'm using an HP ScanJet 3c. Your 4c is the same scanner with different bundled software). A 6100c is an improved version of the same thing. But the newer HP scanners (6200c, 6250c) are a step backwards, at least in terms of the quality of the sheet feeder. For text and line art, make sure you use the "HP AccuPage" feature (automatic thresholding). It does a much better job than the fixed thresholding, or any of the software-based automatic thresholding that I've found. > Did you do that 500+ page manual by hand or with the sheet feeder? :-) The Processor Reference Manual was done by hand. Actually, I guess I don't have any of the ones I've done with the ADF on the web page yet, although I've sent some HP calculator-related scans to Dave Hicks for the next edition of his Museum of HP Calculators CD-ROM set. I'm slowly working on scanning the entire set of TOPS-10 Software Notebooks. > Right now I have a stock HP Scanjet 4C, but am considering investing > in a ledger-size scanner with a decent sheet feeder so I can archive > not only my manuals, but my printsets as well. There are inexpensive scanners with ADF, and there are inexpensive B-size scanners. But there aren't inexpensive B-size scanners with ADF. :-( I keep hoping that HP will introduce one. And it would be especially nice if it was designed for heavy usage, had a high-capacity ADF comparable to a high-end copier, and a 100-base-T network interface. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 14:22:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309115735.00bb7620@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:00:29 -0800) References: <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19990309093204.00a58d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19990309115735.00bb7620@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990309202246.22124.qmail@brouhaha.com> > So is there a paper tape OS for the VAX? Not that I know of. If you can't get set up for netbooting, I think I may have a TK50 drive (non-SCSI) that I could lend you for use with your TQK50. The RQDX3 would let you use an RX50, but it's not clear to me that this buys you very much. I don't think you can install VMS, Ultrix, or NetBSD from RX50s. At least, I've never heard of it being done. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 14:31:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <19990309201849.22082.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 9 Mar 1999 20:18:49 -0000) References: <009D4DC3.28099652.21@ezol.com> <19990309201849.22082.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <19990309203149.22200.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If you "optimize" the PDF using Acrobat Exchange 3.0 or newer, I forgot to mention that the technical term for this process (according to the PDF spec version 1.2) is "linearizing" the file. Although the spec documents exactly what needs to be done, I'm not aware of any Free Software that does it. On the other hand, it doesn't look *too* difficult, so maybe I'll get around to writing some. In my copious free time. Yeah, right. I do my scanning under Linux, create a PDF file, transfer it to my Windows machine, and run it through Acrobat Exchange. That's one of the few things I'm still dependent on Windows for. Sigh. I wish Adobe would release Acrobat Exchange for Linux. Eric From bsa3 at cornell.edu Tue Mar 9 14:38:07 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: ; from John Lawson on Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:30:13AM -0800 References: <009D4DAD.119C2BA2.459@ezol.com> Message-ID: <19990309153807.51844@cornell.edu> On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:30:13AM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > > So far... the best results I have obtained (in experiments) has > been to *photograph* the pages, then scan the photos... I am using > 35mm film, but I would imagine that the newer hi-res digital cameras > would work as well. I will post some of these scanned docs on my > website when I get a Round Tuit. G3 pixels/pg: (200dpi)^2 x 8.5 in x 11 in = 3,740,000 pixels Last I checked, that was a USD 3,000 camera. Prices may have gone down, however. Note that there's no way anything less than the $10K Hasselblad backs that magazines use for studio work can equal a 600dpi scan. Which 35mm film are you using? There are some really nifty Kodak technical films -- Tekpan something or other (4-digit number?) is an ASA 25 black & white film, although you'd need a few hundred dollars of lighting equipment to use it for this application. OTOH, T-Max 125 probably delivers more than enough quality for the job. ^_^ -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 14:37:33 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: YANU - uVax Message-ID: <990309153733.202003cc@trailing-edge.com> >The RQDX3 would let you use an RX50, but it's not clear to me that this >buys you very much. I don't think you can install VMS, Ultrix, or NetBSD >from RX50s. MicroVMS 4.x - a trimmed down VMS kit intended specifically for small installations - came on a couple dozen RX50's. I think this is just about as cruel as the Wagner Ring Cycle on "convenient" 45's. You can still build a VMS STABACKUP (standalone backup) kit on RX33's or RX50's, should you so desire. Just do @SYS$UPDATE:STABACKIT and answer the questions. The most convenient install medium for the past decade or so, of course, is CD-ROM. Alternatively, clustering a machine with an already-up node and moving the install sets over the network is pretty slick. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 14:09:08 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc Message-ID: <990309150908.202003cc@trailing-edge.com> >>>And _History of Personal Workstations_ seems to classify the HP 9100 (1968) >>>as a workstation. >> >>Oh, did you mean graphical workstation? Then maybe it was the DEC GT40, >>introduced in 1972. > >What about the Tectronics terminals with vector graphics? I remember >playing basketball on one in 74. Both the GT40 and HP9100 were vector displays, too :-). (Although to get "vector graphics" on the 9100 you need the optional X-Y pen plotter.) The HP9100 is a very nice "personal compute machine", and the example I inherited was once used to compute the original space probe "slingshot" trajectories by Van Allen at the University of Iowa. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 9 13:05:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990308233529.2507ff4c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 8, 99 11:35:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/cc659723/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 9 13:25:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <000801be6a50$f0f70100$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Mar 9, 99 11:19:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/36c09e7b/attachment.ksh From gareth.knight2 at which.net Tue Mar 9 06:49:29 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: The new Amigas Message-ID: <000001be6a70$a31caf00$76b4fea9@gaz> John Foust replied: >>In a lot of cases Commodore shipped prototype machines to >>various maufacturers. I believe they used Sun systems to >>develop the original AmigaOS. > >They used Stratus 68000 boxes in the very early days. I remember >that; I don't remember the use of Suns quite as well. Yes that was it. I was confusing them with the Sun machines that the Los Gatos team bought after they were bought by Commodore. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 9 16:04:26 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <000801be6a50$f0f70100$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990309160426.321717bc@intellistar.net> Francois, Hey great! Thanks! Joe At 11:19 AM 3/9/99 -0600, you wrote: >I just uploaded the schematics as published in Radio Electronics in May 1976 >it's at : >www.pclink.com/fauradon >under the tech info page. > >Francois > > >>I picked up an 8080 bread board trainer made by E&L Instruments this >>weekend. Does anyone have a manual for it? >> >> Joe >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 9 16:23:11 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: NEC APC Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990309162311.32170a1c@intellistar.net> I found my copy of the Oct 1983 issue of Byte magazine with the article about the NEC APC. If anyone wants a copy, E-mail me directly. Joe From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 9 15:29:08 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <000e01be6a73$dea214e0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> This should probably be in the scanning document thread but... What format should I used for this kind of scans? I thought GIF was pretty universal. I'm not sure if I can produce PS outputs and the size of the files, I'll give it a try... Hold on... Francois >This gives me an interesting dilemma. Is it going to be quicker for me to >figure out some way to print that out on my Postscript printer or for me >to trace the schematics out from the real hardware :-) > >-tony > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 15:30:35 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 in today's Washington Post Message-ID: <990309163035.20200412@trailing-edge.com> In case anyone's interested, a front page story in today's (Tuesday, 9-MAR-1999) Washington's Post features a picture of a "VAX 11/780 Supercomputer" in a discussion of US policies towards supercomputer exports. The computer and two tape drives (TU77's?) are clearly visible. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 9 15:35:09 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <001101be6a74$ba917cc0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> There I've saved the two images in EPS (Encapsulated Postcript format). Now for the bad news: The files are about ten times bigger than their GIF counterparts. I can not afford to place them on my server but if you don't mind long downloads I can send them to you as attachement. Francois I knew there was a reason for using GIF:) >> I just uploaded the schematics as published in Radio Electronics in May 1976 >> it's at : >> www.pclink.com/fauradon >> under the tech info page. > >This gives me an interesting dilemma. Is it going to be quicker for me to >figure out some way to print that out on my Postscript printer or for me >to trace the schematics out from the real hardware :-) > >-tony > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 9 17:46:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990309174631.3167933c@intellistar.net> My source came through again. Today I picked up what is supposed to be a PDP-11/03. Can anyone point me to a good URL to identify the cards in it and provide some general info. I don't know anything about PDP-11s. Joe From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 9 15:46:18 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Apple //c vs //c+ Message-ID: <002001be6a76$44711760$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Found a few reference documents from Apple: Apple IIc Plus: How It's Different From The Apple IIc http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/artnum/n1814 Apple IIc: Specifications http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/artnum/n312 Apple IIc Plus: Specifications http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/artnum/n3247 Apple IIc Plus: External Pinouts http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/artnum/n3798 Francois From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Mar 9 16:18:49 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: wither the MAC address of DELQNA? Message-ID: <4.1.19990309141734.00b5f310@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, so a uVax II can't do a 'test 50' to print out its MAC address, and it isn't marked on the card itself. I can't seem to get tcpdump to see anything, do I need a sniffer to get this puppy? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 9 16:07:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 9, 99 10:23:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/9ef6751c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 9 16:13:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <990309150908.202003cc@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Mar 9, 99 03:09:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/c8525276/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 9 18:27:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990309182714.49c7172a@intellistar.net> At 12:32 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > >> Okay, >> >> I have some old computer manuals and I just bought a scanner...... Anyone >> care to suggest the best way to convert these manuals to electronic form >> and not take up HUGE amounts of memory? >> > >I'd like to second this notion. Could those on this list, who are >scanning for posterity, share their methods? > >What platform(s), what hardware(s), what software(s). Any intermediary >format(s), final output format(s). Whatever it takes. > >I am especially puzzled by dpi. Seems everybody in the world is scanning >at 600 or over. I am contemplating using a Hewlett Packard at 300 and >from some test scans, including pictures, I am hard pressed to tell the >difference between 2 and 3 hundred. Extremely high numbers coupled with >millions of colors (where applicable) seem to me to be just a waste of >storage space. I scanned a bunch of articles recently and found that the appearance didn't degrade until I went below ~125 DPI. I scanned and posted everything at 150 DPI, then used PhotoShop to save the images at a fixed 600 to 800 pixel width (keeping the height/width ratio). Scannning at 150 DPI saved a bunch of disk space and time. FWIW I was scanning black text on a white background, you may have to adjust the settings for different font size, color, etc. I tried Omni-Carea OCR but it was totally useless!!! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 9 18:34:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc In-Reply-To: <990309150908.202003cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990309183405.49e798dc@intellistar.net> At 03:09 PM 3/9/99 -0500, Tim wrote: > >The HP9100 is a very nice "personal compute machine", and the example >I inherited was once used to compute the original space probe "slingshot" >trajectories by Van Allen at the University of Iowa. Can you document that? I'd heard that he used an HP for computing that. If you can prove that it's the one that you have then I'd say you have a item of historical significance. It would be increadible if you could get a copy of his original program. Joe From emu at ecubics.com Tue Mar 9 16:38:47 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 Message-ID: <19990309223855.AAA9753@1Cust254.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi all, Somebody offered me this two pieces "cheap". Anybody on the list knows what exactly they are ? Which Processor they use ? Operating systems ? Pointer to any documentation ? thanks a lot & sorry, if being off topic (but the price let me think that they are old enough). emanuel From gareth.knight2 at which.net Tue Mar 9 16:39:12 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Amigas and Atari ST Message-ID: <047601be6a7d$fff42840$76b4fea9@gaz> Zane H. Healy wrote: >Personally I think that this is the first good news in almost a year. The >way the situation has been handled so far is criminal. The WOA >announcements last spring did more towards killing off the Classic Amiga >market than anything since Commodore's bankrupcy. I agree that it could have been handled a lot better. I have to sympathise with Amiga Inc though. It wasn't easy when they split from their OS Partner around a week before the show. All the hype about the announcement and then they are forced to abandon half of it, leaving just some vague references to a superchip, development boxes and a schedule that was impossible to meet. Personally I think the Amiga has been slowly dying for a number of years. Admittedly there is not the sense of gloom as in 1996 but the "Classic" market is gradually shrinking. In the UK, Amiga Format readership has dropped to just 14,644. However it is hardly doom and gloom; Netscape is being ported to the Amiga under the name "AMozillaX"; Power Computing are set to release a revised version of the A5000 that uses the Escona G3 accelerator; and AmigaOS 3.5 screenshots have been shown for the first time (www.amiga.de). >Well, basically right, but as Tony pointed out, on the DEC Pro POS is >actually P/OS, and I can't remember if the Amigoid POS is POS or P-OS, but >it was to also run on a Pios One :^) Ooooh, you were so close. It was actually spelt "pOS." Let's see what you could have won! ;) >Oh, BLEEP! Any news on the BoXeR? I'd wanted a BoXeR so bad it isn't >funny, but Mick has been dragging his feet for so long I'm no longer sure. Mick has a severe case of the flu apparently, so the BoXeR has been delayed. >I'd thought the Siamese Hardware was ready to go and all that was left was >the drivers. I'm sure all the people that preordered these love this news. >I didn't preorder one for two reasons, lack of faith in it being completed, >and the main reason is there was no mention of Linux support. As you are on the Team Amiga ML I'm sure you've already got the mail from the Siamese PCI crew about the current problems with the board so I won't mention that. Have you looked on the Siamese website recently? They are moving towards the Linux market with a new range of cheap Linux-based systems called the TVNC. It mentions that the Siamese PCI card can be used with these machines so I presume Linux support has, or will be added. Hans Franke wrote: >Don't cary the CP/M flag that low - With 3.0 and GSX CP/M was ready >as major player in the GUI world ? What's GEM as used on the ATARI ST >other than a bautified CP/M and GSX based system with an added desktop >manager ? And I bet nobody will deny that the ST was a major step in >the GUI war. Well, it certainly helped many people to use a greener computer. BTW I noticed a while ago that http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm/gemworld.html includes an archive with what they claim is the TOS source code for 68010. Has anyone tried it? -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 16:42:27 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: wither the MAC address of DELQNA? Message-ID: <990309174227.20200437@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so a uVax II can't do a 'test 50' to print out its MAC address, and it >isn't marked on the card itself. I can't seem to get tcpdump to see >anything, do I need a sniffer to get this puppy? Hmm - the boot request is actually far below TCP/IP in the protocol scheme, so it's not surprising that at least some versions of tcpdump don't see it. Does the tcpdump that you're running have a promiscuous mode (usually '-p')? Most boot servers can be set in a mode where they print out the hardware address of anything that makes a request. From VMS, you can just log in, do a REPLY/ENABLE, and you'll see the hardware address whenever anything on the net requests a boot. If you have a DEC machine that has an ability to show its hardware address (e.g. just about anything except a uVax II), you can pull the bipolar PROM on the DEQNA and drop it into the "more capable" machine and show the address burnt into the PROM. AFAIK all the DEC hardware address PROM's are interchangable. Alternatively, just boot VMS on the uVax, get into NCP, and do a SHOW CHAR LINE * to show the hardware addresses of all the configured ports: $ mcr ncp NCP>show char line * Known Line Volatile Characteristics as of 9-MAR-1999 17:37:22 Line = SVA-0 Receive buffers = 10 Controller = normal Protocol = Ethernet Service timer = 4000 Hardware address = 08-00-2B-39-7B-64 Device buffer size = 1498 -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From svs at ropnet.ru Tue Mar 9 16:47:03 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: ; from Stephen Dauphin on Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:32:43PM -0500 References: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> Message-ID: <19990310014703.12459@firepower> On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 12:32:43PM -0500, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > I'd like to second this notion. Could those on this list, who are > scanning for posterity, share their methods? > > What platform(s), what hardware(s), what software(s). Any intermediary > format(s), final output format(s). Whatever it takes. * Operating system of your choice, as long as PStill binaries work in it. * Scanning software of your choice (SANE , XVScan , ...) * NetPBM , for its pnmtotiff utility. * libtiff , for its tiffcp and tiff2ps utilities. * PStill * Lots of disk space for intermediate PostScript file and PStill temporary files. Example: 39-page A4-size document scanned at 300dpi is 1.5 MB in TIFF format (Group 4 Fax compression), 84 MB in Level 1 PostScript (PStill does not grok Level 2 PostScript produced by tiff2ps.) Result: 3.5 MB PDF (could be less, if PStill used CCITTFaxEncoding.) Invocation: scanimage --mode Lineart --resolution 300 | pnmtotiff -g4 >manual-nn.tiff tiffcp -a -c g4 manual-??.tiff manual.tiff tiff2ps -1 -a -O manual.ps manual.tiff pstill -c -o manual.pdf manual.ps . . . grindgrindgrind . . . BTW: you can view multi-page TIFF file in Netscape or "I, Explorer" (Win32) with a SwiftView plugin: -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 9 16:25:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <000e01be6a73$dea214e0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Mar 9, 99 03:29:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990309/590acd59/attachment.ksh From ss at allegro.com Tue Mar 9 16:54:37 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 In-Reply-To: <19990309223855.AAA9753@1Cust254.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <199903092254.OAA26759@bart.allegro.com> Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 > Somebody offered me this two pieces "cheap". Anybody on the list knows what > exactly they are ? Which Processor they use ? Operating systems ? > Pointer to any documentation ? 9000/832 is a PA-RISC based HP-UX machine, 30 MHz clock (which is pretty slow). The memory boards are not HP proprietary, and the machine can take a *lot* of memory (up to about 720 MB, if I recall correctly) It's the size of a two drawer file cabinet and is fairly heavy. Normally, there's an internal HP DDS ("DAT") drive and one or more internal HPIB disk drives. Oh yes...it's an HPIB system, although it supports a SCSI addon card, I think. Note: if it comes with nothing at all in the way of software, you can ask HP for HP-UX 10.20 for free. See: http://www.hp.com/esy/systems_networking/systems/services/upgrade_free_plus.html Documentation? Try: http://docs.hp.com/ Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 16:55:08 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc Message-ID: <990309175508.20200437@trailing-edge.com> At 03:09 PM 3/9/99 -0500, Tim wrote: >> >>The HP9100 is a very nice "personal compute machine", and the example >>I inherited was once used to compute the original space probe "slingshot" >>trajectories by Van Allen at the University of Iowa. > Can you document that? They were rescued from a dumpster behind the U of Iowa's Van Allen Hall in the fall of '89. The 9100 and the plotter have Dept of Navy property stickers on them that could be used to trace usage back, assuming that any such records were kept. My conversations with Van Allen and other staff there didn't turn up anything showing that this was conclusively that calculator, though the fact that he had used a identical 9100+plotter combination for the calculations was enough to convince me. (Heck, I would've rescued the 9100 in any event.) >If you can prove that it's the one that you have then I'd say you have a >item of historical significance. You ought to try hanging out at national labs for a while. Just about everything gets junked. I had a blast at Caltech/JPL looking in the back of machine shops for WWII-era rocket assemblies. Found a lot of really cool assemblies, but obviously no complete rockets :-) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Mar 9 17:07:31 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <19990309203149.22200.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 9 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > If you "optimize" the PDF using Acrobat Exchange 3.0 or newer, > > I forgot to mention that the technical term for this process (according > to the PDF spec version 1.2) is "linearizing" the file. Although the > spec documents exactly what needs to be done, I'm not aware of any Free > Software that does it. On the other hand, it doesn't look *too* difficult, > so maybe I'll get around to writing some. In my copious free time. Yeah, > right. > > I do my scanning under Linux, create a PDF file, transfer it to my Windows > machine, and run it through Acrobat Exchange. That's one of the few things > I'm still dependent on Windows for. Sigh. I wish Adobe would release > Acrobat Exchange for Linux. > > Eric > Well this brings up the idea whether PDF is the be all and end all format. Isn't PDF format determined by Adobe and don't they keep changing the file spec? Or is a more public and open group determining the direction? My only experience is with PDF on a Mac. Acrobat 1.0 for Mac, which works on 68000 machines, could still read 2.0 format files and display them, albeit while complaining about errors. Acrobat 2.0, which needs a 68020 minimum, shows a variety of errors and all it displays is a blank page, on what I presume are PDF files recently converted with 3.0. So what PDFs are we actually making? What changes has Adobe been making? Are they important? Is there a bottom line and lowest common denominator PDF? What PDF does Ghostscript output? While these questions press towards off-topic territory, I am hoping someone, probably Eric, can give us a short summary, so we are all literally on the same page. I'll apologize in advance if everybody already knows the subject and I am the only one out of the loop. --- Stephen Dauphin From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 9 17:21:07 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <19990309153807.51844@cornell.edu> from "Brad Ackerman" at Mar 09, 1999 03:38:07 PM Message-ID: <199903092321.QAA14240@calico.litterbox.com> > Last I checked, that was a USD 3,000 camera. Prices may have gone > down, however. Note that there's no way anything less than the $10K > Hasselblad backs that magazines use for studio work can equal a 600dpi > scan. > Which 35mm film are you using? There are some really nifty Kodak > technical films -- Tekpan something or other (4-digit number?) is an > ASA 25 black & white film, although you'd need a few hundred dollars > of lighting equipment to use it for this application. OTOH, T-Max 125 > probably delivers more than enough quality for the job. ^_^ Hey, you can save a ton of work scanning and get far better resolution than the average scanner by taking the pictures on 35mm film with a good closeup lense and having Kodak process it on to a photocd. Most graphics packages (ie photodeluxe) can read photocds directly. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 9 18:21:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Interesting to note about Altairs... Message-ID: <199903100021.AA16158@world.std.com> Hello All, At 06:37 PM 3/4/99 -0500, Lance Lyon wrote: >Added the following to my growing collection today : [Snip] >An IBM (no model number) two internal side-by-side black 3.5" floppies, >non-standard monitor connector, PS/2 style mouse & k/brd connectors, >small grey box, about the width of a normal keyboard, 5" high, about 12" >deep. On the rear "Manufactured by IBM Japan 1987" nothing else. Sounds to me like an IBM JX. It was pretty much IBM's last attempt to get into the low-cost home micro market. It was similar to the PC Jr in many respects. For a bit more info, check out http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/IBM_JX.html Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au | | Network Services Team |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| | Client Services Division |Post : University of Canberra, | | University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 9 18:43:26 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: 7900A drives Message-ID: <004501be6a8f$03687ec0$0101a8c0@jay> I finally got a 7900A drive! Does anyone have any extra of the media for it they might part with or know where one can get that media at a reasonable price? The 7900A uses a 12869A cartridge, which I don't believe is the same media used in 7905 or 7906 drives (I think those used 12940 cartridges, don't recall at the moment). Thanks in advance for any tips and/or pointers! Jay West From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 18:50:08 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 In-Reply-To: <19990309223855.AAA9753@1Cust254.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> (emu@ecubics.com) References: <19990309223855.AAA9753@1Cust254.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <19990310005008.24030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Emanuel wrote: > Somebody offered me this two pieces "cheap". Anybody on the list knows what > exactly they are ? Which Processor they use ? Operating systems ? > Pointer to any documentation ? I have an HP 90000/832. It uses an PA-RISC 1.0 processor and runs HP/UX. I don't have any docs. The AS/400 runs OS/400. It might use either a proprietary processor designed specifically for the AS/400, or it might use a special variant of a PowerPC RISC. I don't know how to tell from the model number. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 18:55:19 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 In-Reply-To: <199903092254.OAA26759@bart.allegro.com> (ss@allegro.com) References: <199903092254.OAA26759@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: <19990310005519.24054.qmail@brouhaha.com> Stan Sieler wrote about the HP 9000/832: > The memory boards are not HP proprietary, I assume that by this you meant that there are third parties making compatible RAM boards? Because it's certainly not the case that you can just throw in old SIMMs or DRAM chips that you have lying around. > Note: if it comes with nothing at all in the way of software, you can > ask HP for HP-UX 10.20 for free. See: > http://www.hp.com/esy/systems_networking/systems/services/upgrade_free_plus.html Thanks for pointing this out. I've browsed around from there some, and I can't figure out *how* to actually order the upgrade. Any hints will be welcomed. Eric From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 9 18:55:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Old multimedia demos Message-ID: I found two CDs full of promotional kiosk demos which run on MS-DOS. The demos are of office apps such as DBase IV, etc. The most interesting demos are for the early Windows programs. If anyone would like me to upload any of these (many famous products from -88,-89) just name it. The Windows one is simply hilarious: "In the beginning, there was DOS..." I also found a CD that is full of in-store demos of Macintosh System 7 (hypercard 'n stuff). No word yet on availability of macintosh manuals mentioned earlier. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From bmahoney at sprint.ca Tue Mar 9 21:06:46 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals References: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> <3.0.1.16.19990309182714.49c7172a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36E5E1C6.F1F7BD1@sprint.ca> Let's look at this two ways. Scanning the manuals using OmniPage Pro would take care of the text, keeping it in the same columns as before and making storage of the resulting text extremely easy. OmniPage Pro is expensive but there are ways around that. It is also the best I have used and virtually perfect in its OCR cabability plus it will keep columns together. If the manuals are old and deteriorating, scan them at high resolution but there shouldn't be any need to go higher than 300 dpi. I have never scanned anything at more than 300 dpi. I think for the web, anything over 72dpi is unnecessary. The second issue is the diagrams. In order to make them legible you have to scan them in high resolution. Assuming these are only in black and white, this would take some trial and error to get things just right but, from my experience with manuals, there aren't a whole lot of diagrams anyway. The non-detailed images could be dithered to make file size smaller, detailed images would seem to be the only memory hog here. A suggestion would be to cruise around the IBM site. They have fairly detailed diagrams, motherboard schematics etc. on site and you could see what size those images are simply by saving them to your computer. From my experience, any web master would be please to give you information on how they got their images from their origins to where they are now. PDF format makes sense but I seem to recall Acrobat isn't exactly free. Other suggestions would be html, which is simple to set up and easy to navigate once set up and, arguably, more universal than PDF. Alternatively, Word or Wordperfect format should be around for awhile or RTF. Personally I would choose html, as it is cross-platform should you wish to make these documents available to others. Here is a link to a page that I discovered recently, please note I have no affiliation with this site but it is very useful: http://www.hsdesign.com/scanning/tipswelcome.html And another with some tips on dpi: http://scantips.com/basics03.html Brian Mahoney's 2 cents -- Links to my new Computer Collecting column at Suite101 and my Computer Collecting site at Geocities: http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 9 19:14:32 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:54 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: (message from Stephen Dauphin on Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:07:31 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990310011432.24201.qmail@brouhaha.com> Stephen Dauphin asks: > Well this brings up the idea whether PDF is the be all and end all format. I wouldn't bet on it. But it seems to be pretty ubiquitous on "modern" computers (vs. "classics"). Since I use modern computers for all my administrative tasks, it doesn't bother me. I know that there are people who try to use classic computers for everything, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not going to go very far out of my way to accomodate it either. > Isn't PDF format determined by Adobe [...] > Or is a more public and open group determining the direction? Yes, AFAIK they have unilateral control over it. > and don't they keep changing the file spec? The 1.2 spec is published at: http://partners.adobe.com/supportservice/devrelations/PDFS/TN/PDFSPEC.PDF The 1.0 spec was available in book form, but I don't think they've published printed editions of newer specs. They've just announced version 1.3 of the spec in conjunction with their Acrobat 4.0 product. The changes have always been upward compatible. From reading the 1.0 and 1.2 specs, it is apparent that any compliant 1.0 PDF file should work fine with a compliant 1.2 reader. I assume the same relation holds true for versions 1.1 and 1.3. > My only experience is with PDF on a Mac. > > Acrobat 1.0 for Mac, which works on 68000 machines, could still read 2.0 > format files and display them, albeit while complaining about errors. > > Acrobat 2.0, which needs a 68020 minimum, shows a variety of errors and > all it displays is a blank page, on what I presume are PDF files recently > converted with 3.0. > > So what PDFs are we actually making? I'm producing PDF version 1.2 files, which probably require version 3.0 or newer of Acrobat Reader. Version 1.0 of PDF required that all binary images be encoded in hexadecimal or base 85, so version 1.0 PDF files of scanned images would be rather than binary PDF files using later versions of the spec. This means that readers that only understand version 1.0 probably don't work with binary PDF files. As far as I know, I am not taking advantage of any PDF features that are not present in version 1.1 other than "linearization". I believe that my PDF 1.2 files should work correctly with a reader that understands PDF 1.1. > What changes has Adobe been making? Are they important? They're documented in the spec. I'm not familiar with all of them. I don't think any of them other than the binary format introduced in PDF 1.1 are critical to my purposes, although "linearization" makes the file more friendly to web browsers. > Is there a bottom line and lowest common denominator PDF? Hard to say. So far the only flames I've received have been about using the PDF format in general, not about my use of a specific version. > What PDF does Ghostscript output? No idea. But I wouldn't use Ghostscript for scanned images. I go straight from TIFF Class F Group 4 to PDF. Eric From joe at barrera.org Tue Mar 9 19:18:20 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: IIRC References: <006c01be6974$47d951e0$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Mar 8, 99 08:59:35 am <199903091653.RAA00763@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <045a01be6a93$e624f0f0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> Hans, Check out http://faq.online.de/netiquet.htm -- it lists a few abreviations, and points to a much longer list at http://www.detebe.org/3.14/yabla.txt - Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 9 19:23:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: wither the MAC address of DELQNA? Message-ID: <199903100123.AA03311@world.std.com> >>E/P/W/n:5 2003FF920, I forget. havent had to do that for years. If it's wrong, someone correct me it's something I haven't done in 6 years. The DEQNA and DELQA are identical in the console command and addresses needed to dump the MAC. If it doesnt' respond it may have a different address other than the default in the device switches on the card. Allison From ss at allegro.com Tue Mar 9 19:32:51 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HP9000/832 & HP-UX 10.20 update (was something else) In-Reply-To: <19990310005519.24054.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199903092254.OAA26759@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: <199903100132.RAA17117@bart.allegro.com> > Stan Sieler wrote about the HP 9000/832: > > The memory boards are not HP proprietary, > > I assume that by this you meant that there are third parties making compatible > RAM boards? Because it's certainly not the case that you can just throw in Yes. Kelly Computer Systems made some for it, and I think a German memory company made some, too. And you're right, ordinary old memory won't work. As for getting HP-UX 10.20, I forgot how one can wander around in twisty little passages all different... go to: http://www.hp.com/esy/systems_networking/systems/services/upgrade_instruct.html Click on those little "Section 1" and Section 2" links, and the "Sign one Software License Agreement" link. BTW, I had no fancy proof of purchase, nor any other HP provided paperwork. I sent them the model and serial number off the back of the my HP 9000s. For "proof of purchase" I did two things: (1) for one computer, sent a copy of the surplus store receipt where I'd bought the thing (WeirdStuff Warehouse); and (2) for the other computer, sent a letter stating I'd bought it used from someone. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 19:49:08 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: wither the MAC address of DELQNA? In-Reply-To: <199903100123.AA03311@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309174632.00ae1180@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Thanks Allison! I've not tried it yet but I did run MOPD and watch it note that someone (gives MAC address) is asking for MOP. That has to be my VAX. Although at the moment my console line is on the fritz again so I can't tell it to boot a particular file. So the trivia question of the moment is, what is the default MOP file asked for by the uVAX 2 when it MOPS the network? --Chuck At 08:23 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >So short of pulling the card and read the printing on the PROM you can >do a Examine/Physical/Word/n:5 of the six locations starting at: >>>>E/P/W/n:5 2003FF920, I forget. havent had to do that for years. So are the other commands in this kinda-ODT-like monitor documented? --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 20:21:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: ARGH! Device names .... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309174632.00ae1180@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <199903100123.AA03311@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309181904.0099b100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, I am soooo close I can taste it. Tried to boot using the NetBSD FAQ spec of : -------------------------------------------------------- snip >>> b/100 esa0 2.. Bootfile: mopboot ?41 DEVASSIGN, ESA0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 0000EEEE Failure. >>> --------------------------------------------------------- It is almost Haiku. I know the ethernet interface is working 'cuz it sends out a MOP request when I don't tell it what to boot. Is there a "List Devices" or somesuch? (and I thought OpenBoot was cryptic!) --Chuck From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 9 19:50:36 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: Stephen Dauphin "Re: Scanning old manuals" (Mar 9, 14:05) References: Message-ID: <9903100150.ZM19335@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 9, 14:05, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > That's not what I'd call "high". That means that on average, you have to > > correct or interpret every tenth character. I'd call less than 99% "low", > > not high. > That's not what I meant. I did not study the results closely and so I > wrote "high 90%" as a disclaimer to mean something like 98, 98.5, 99, > 99.5, or 99.9. Perhaps I should have used the word "range". It seemed to > me that I was getting less than 1 to no more than two words per hundred > that needed correcting and I don't remember any punctuation or numerical > errors. Ah, that's a bit different, then :-) What software? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From at258 at osfn.org Tue Mar 9 20:32:12 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Will the owner... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, I think that would be me... On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > > ...of the Rhode Island Computer Museum please speak up? I'm trying to > > record your payment for the Teledisk group buy, but I cannot match your > > check with a person's name or E-mail addy. > > RCS/RI? That would be me or Allison, I think. I know nothing about the > Teledisk deal... > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 9 20:37:41 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <002001be6a9e$fb0f1800$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> OK, I've been soft brained lately. I do have a copy of the articles May, June and july 1976 (Last one is incomplete:(. If there is enough interest I can try to scan all I have and post it somewhere (I'm running low on web space so it might have to be somewhere else..). It's about ten double sided pages (I can renove the adds from the scans) My Dyna Micro came without any chips, they apparently have ben canibalized is there any way that I can obtain a 1702 with KEX??? Also if anyone has the July 1976 of Radio Electronics, the end of the article is at page 85, I'd love to get a scan of that... Thanks Francois From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 9 20:39:10 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: ARGH! Device names .... Message-ID: <990309213910.2020045b@trailing-edge.com> > Tried to boot using the NetBSD FAQ spec of : > -------------------------------------------------------- snip > >>> b/100 esa0 > > Is there a "List Devices" or somesuch? (and I thought OpenBoot was cryptic!) "ESA0" is what the Ethernet is called on a VS2000 or VS3100. On your Microvax II it should be XQA0. Tim. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Mar 9 20:52:37 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Will the owner... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990309075624.009518c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990309185237.009635c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 11:08 09-03-1999 -0500, you wrote: >RCS/RI? That would be me or Allison, I think. I know nothing about the >Teledisk deal... > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net I'm surprised. I had the offer to do a group buy splattered all over the list, and it garnered nearly 50 responses. Anyway... here's what I have. A business check with: 'The Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.' And an address in North Kingstown, RI. It's made out for $6.06, as per my request, and was mailed to me wrapped in stationery from the museum. The letter specifically references the Teledisk group buy, but there is no E-mail addy given and the signature is unreadable (looks kind of like an 'M' with a diagonal line under it). I'll include a request for further details in the reminder I send out tonight. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 9 20:47:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals Message-ID: <19990310024624344.AAA242@fuj03> I use some software called TypeMaster Pro, or something very close to that with an old monochrome legal size scanner with sheetfeeder, namely a Microtek 300, which I've had for about 10 years. I normally plunked a manual in the feeder (once the binding was cut off) and scanned all the odd, then all the even pages. It rejects the pictures, of course, but you only have to nurse it through the first 10 or so pages, by which time it's learned the font and punctuations in common use in the manual and can do the rest more or less by itself. Unfortunately it has to be retrained for the second pass. What it does is pretty slick, though, in that it looks at the alignment and actually straightens out a sheet which has been fed crooked. It can't replace text it didn't see, but it does a pretty good job. One of my colleagues made a quick machine readable copy of the State's revised statutes in order to investigate a case in which he was involved. It required less than half a day for him to do that. Dick ---------- > From: Jim Strickland > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Scanning old manuals > Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 4:21 PM > > > Last I checked, that was a USD 3,000 camera. Prices may have gone > > down, however. Note that there's no way anything less than the $10K > > Hasselblad backs that magazines use for studio work can equal a 600dpi > > scan. > > > Which 35mm film are you using? There are some really nifty Kodak > > technical films -- Tekpan something or other (4-digit number?) is an > > ASA 25 black & white film, although you'd need a few hundred dollars > > of lighting equipment to use it for this application. OTOH, T-Max 125 > > probably delivers more than enough quality for the job. ^_^ > > Hey, you can save a ton of work scanning and get far better resolution than > the average scanner by taking the pictures on 35mm film with a good closeup > lense and having Kodak process it on to a photocd. Most graphics packages > (ie photodeluxe) can read photocds directly. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 9 14:56:37 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: suggestion for list sanity? In-Reply-To: <199903091958.MAA13454@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: >I was wondering if it would be possible to add an "OT subgroup" to classiccmp >that people can choose to subscribe to or not. That way when something goes >as far afield as the operating system discussion or the argument about guns >in times past, those who wish to participate can simply agree to post to the >off-topic board and not irritate those who don't wish to participate. Might >be a good place for auction foo, too, although an additional subgroup for that >would also work. Would this be possible, oh list admin? Possible or not, it isn't practical as the offenders will continue to post as they please, and many things don't start or stay off topic. Filter your email, or learn to quickly hit delete. That works. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 9 19:30:28 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 6, 99 11:02:56 pm Message-ID: >I have the HX20 service manual.... And I thought I was good at tormenting people. ;) Hopefully I won't have any repair questions, but I can't imagine the battery pack is still OK after years of sitting, but didn't give much thought to checking them. Both of the hamfests I attend each month have a couple of battery guys with tons on old nicads etc., plus Radio shack sells them $7.95 a pair new. >There is an internal NiCd battery, it's 4 Sub-C cells soldered/welded >together and wired to a plug on the mainboard. It's not hard to make a >replacement pack if it fails. The 'regulation' on the Vcc line depends on >the fact that the NiCd will limit the voltage when it's on charge (the >entire machine is CMOS, so regulation isn't that critical). So don't >attempt to charge the machine without the battery in place. Can you tell me much about the AC adapter? (why is it the adapter always gets lost. I didn't get one with the PowerBook 5300CS I bought last Saturday either.) I wonder if a generic adapter will be OK to use? >Skiwriter is an option, presumably an extra ROM plugged into the spare >socket inside. There should also be a machine code monitor in ROM (select >1 from the startup menu). The BASIC is pretty standard Microsoft, with a >few extras (that I can look up) for things like controlling the cassette, >turning on/off individual pixels on the display, etc. > >The printer is, indeed 20 characters wide. > >The 'serial' port (5 pin) is used to connect the machine to a TF20 floppy >disk drive normally. You can also (IIRC) interconnect 2 machines by this >port. That sounds like an item nice to find, but I am figuring out a scheme to hook many older systems up via an inhouse BBS running to the serial ports. >The RS232 port is what it claims to be. It's an 8 pin DIN, and plugs are I remember this as the number one feature, so people could use these as remote terminals controlling all sorts of odd bits. I may not find a correct cable, but finding a connector should be easy in this surplus rich part of world. (SoCal is a huge dumping ground of old gear). BTW how on earth do you end up with a HX-20 service manual and no HX-20? Thanks, Mike Ford From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 9 19:50:52 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: LN03 headed for heap In-Reply-To: <199903071655.AA02391@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >Only if the fans are missing or dead. I was part of that design team and >overheating was never a problem. The most common problem was a printer >designed for an peak use of 5,000 pages a month being used as a line >printer. They get a bit tired and cranky if they werent kept clean and >get over a million pages on them. Inshort they were commonly abused. Sounds like a heck of a printer, too bad nobody wanted these. They were so big and heavy though I couldn't even think about bringing them home. Same for the MemoryWriter 645. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 21:17:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: ARGH! Device names .... In-Reply-To: <990309213910.2020045b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309190445.009d6690@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Uh Tim, that's closer but no joy yet. Isn't it supposed to say: XQA0- when its booting? I tried this and it accepted the command just fine but mopd didn't say anything (like it didn't see the request, its running in debug mode so it should be pretty darn chatty) and the console never printed anything out again. Hmmm, any suggestions? --Chuck At 09:39 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Tried to boot using the NetBSD FAQ spec of : >> -------------------------------------------------------- snip >> >>> b/100 esa0 >> >> Is there a "List Devices" or somesuch? (and I thought OpenBoot was cryptic!) > >"ESA0" is what the Ethernet is called on a VS2000 or VS3100. On your >Microvax II it should be XQA0. > >Tim. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 9 21:16:40 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: suggestion for list sanity? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 09, 1999 12:56:37 PM Message-ID: <199903100316.UAA15276@calico.litterbox.com> > > >I was wondering if it would be possible to add an "OT subgroup" to classiccmp > >that people can choose to subscribe to or not. That way when something goes > >as far afield as the operating system discussion or the argument about guns > >in times past, those who wish to participate can simply agree to post to the > >off-topic board and not irritate those who don't wish to participate. Might > >be a good place for auction foo, too, although an additional subgroup for that > >would also work. Would this be possible, oh list admin? > > Possible or not, it isn't practical as the offenders will continue to post > as they please, and many things don't start or stay off topic. > > Filter your email, or learn to quickly hit delete. That works. Oh I do. I was speaking as an offender rather than complaining. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Mar 9 20:51:57 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Burst Nibbler? Message-ID: <010d01be6aa0$fd67c320$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Hi all, Have a friend that has acquired a heavily optioned up Commodore 64. He is not very clued up on computers in general, but he has some strange options fitted. There is some sort of accelerator board built in to his 1541 drive. Unfortunately, for it to work, it evidently needs a disk with something called (I think) Burst Nibbler on it. Seems to be associated with something called Dolphin DOS, possibly on the same disk. Problem is that he doesn't have the disk, seems he bought the machine and many boxes of disks at auction, but a pile of other disks went to someone else. He was able to find the original owner, who confirmed that he needs this particular disk to make the fast loader work, but it seems it was with the stuff he didn't get.. I know just enough about C64's to avoid them like the plague, however I would like to help him if I could.. Anyone out there know more about this, especially in Oz? I'd be happy to cover the costs of copying/shipping a floppy. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 9 21:30:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Ranging OT: Re: Amigas and Atari ST In-Reply-To: <047601be6a7d$fff42840$76b4fea9@gaz> Message-ID: >being ported to the Amiga under the name "AMozillaX"; Power Computing are >set to release a revised version of the A5000 that uses the Escona G3 Wow, this is the first mention I've heard of a A5000 in about a year! >accelerator; and AmigaOS 3.5 screenshots have been shown for the first time >(www.amiga.de). I saw them last night. Not as nice looking as my A3000 though :^) >>Oh, BLEEP! Any news on the BoXeR? I'd wanted a BoXeR so bad it isn't >>funny, but Mick has been dragging his feet for so long I'm no longer sure. > >Mick has a severe case of the flu apparently, so the BoXeR has been delayed. Oh, good grief that's the last thing it needs is another delay :^( I'm starting to suspect the real problem is that he's to much of a perfectionist. >As you are on the Team Amiga ML I'm sure you've already got the mail from >the Siamese PCI crew about the current problems with the board so I won't Saw it this morning. Sounds like more of Amiga Inc. messing things up. >Have you looked on the Siamese website recently? They are moving towards the >Linux market with a new range of cheap Linux-based systems called the TVNC. >It mentions that the Siamese PCI card can be used with these machines so I >presume Linux support has, or will be added. It's more likely they're refering to the Alpha running Windows NT. Though I've heard about a new Alpha Box they're building that holds 8 Alpha Motherboards?!?! What I don't understand is why they seem to have the cheapest Alpha systems around, I've not seen systems priced like them in the US. Admitadly I'm mostly looking at systems that are capable of running OpenVMS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 9 22:49:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <002001be6a9e$fb0f1800$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Francois wrote: > OK, I've been soft brained lately. I do have a copy of the articles May, > June and july 1976 (Last one is incomplete:(. > If there is enough interest I can try to scan all I have and post it > somewhere (I'm running low on web space so it might have to be somewhere > else..). It's about ten double sided pages (I can renove the adds from the > scans) Suggestion. Get a free yahoo or geocities web space so you can post this info at no out of pocket cost to you. You can put a link to the scans from your web site. Take advantage of what the web has to offer. It doesn't all need to be in one place anymore. Think distributed! To the end user its all the same anyway. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 9 22:56:52 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <199903100456.AA22269@world.std.com> >My source came through again. Today I picked up what is supposed to be a >PDP-11/03. Can anyone point me to a good URL to identify the cards in it >and provide some general info. I don't know anything about PDP-11s. Try the pdp-11 Field Guide... There is a copy I've been working on which you can find through a link on my home_systems page... that text file will have the pointer to the official version... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Mar 9 22:41:42 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HP2100 simulator (was Re: WAY OT: Re: Interesting to note about Altairs...) In-Reply-To: Arfon Gryffydd's message of Tue, 09 Mar 1999 10:29:49 -0600 References: <19990308225051.14724.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.3.32.19990308152156.00958560@texas.net> <3.0.3.32.19990309102949.0093f100@texas.net> Message-ID: <199903100441.UAA21738@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Back to On-topic... How about the HP2100 emulators... Anyone know how to > get it to work? > > http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/index.html OK, if you go to http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/emulator/index.html ...you will find the sources for the simulator and some other bits. e21.c is the simulator core. ttyaccess.c is a file lifted from Doug Jones' PDP-8 simulator. They get compiled and linked together to make the simulator, e21. hpasm.c is source for an HP21xx cross-assembler. I haven't done anything with this. chkasm.c is source for a program that checks an HP21xx absolute binary tape to make sure it is OK with its checksums. I haven't done anything with this either. Turns out Jeff did most of his development work under MS-DOS, and I think it probably works best there. I don't know what C compiler he used for MS-DOS. For Un*x, there is the file mkunix which contains commands to compile this stuff. It's not exactly a shell script but may be used as standard input to a shell. Building e21 under FreeBSD requires that you remove -DTERMIOS, and you will then notice that the simulator's prompts are wacky because it puts the tty from which it is run into raw mode and leaves it that way. I have some patches that make it switch the tty back and forth as needed but they introduce another bug, namely the simulator exits when the simulated 21xx halts. Oops. OK, so now supposing you've got it built, go get something else: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/basic1.abs That's an absolute paper tape image for a single-user standalone BASIC interpreter that will work with the simulator. Now run e21, tell it to LOAD basic1.abs, and then to RUN. Case is important for the simulator's commands. That should get you running the standalone BASIC. Fun, huh? When you get tired of this, type BYE to the BASIC interpreter, and it should drop you back to the simulator's U2100> command prompt. Q will exit the simulator. -Frank McConnell From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 9 23:00:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Can you tell me much about the AC adapter? (why is it the adapter always > gets lost. I didn't get one with the PowerBook 5300CS I bought last > Saturday either.) I wonder if a generic adapter will be OK to use? DC 6V; 600mA. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 9 23:07:12 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc Message-ID: <199903100507.WAA15731@calico.litterbox.com> Hi. I've finally got all the stuff to upgrade my vax to a level where I can hang it on my network. I have the external disk cable, I have a new 1gig drive to put in it. And of course, I have some questions. i 1. Does VMS 6.2 know about ISO9660 cdroms out of the box? 2. When doing a show dev on a VS3100/40, the cdrom drive should show up on the device list, right? (I suspect I goofed up the wiring on the CDROM case) 3. can someone answer conclusively for me whether the vaxstation expects the disk to have parity enabled? The lists I've read don't seem very sure. 4. anything special about configuring cmu? I've gotten UCX to work in a past life as a VMS sysadmin. As always, I appreciate any answers y'all can give me. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 9 23:29:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <199903100507.WAA15731@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: >Hi. I've finally got all the stuff to upgrade my vax to a level where I can >hang it on my network. I have the external disk cable, I have a new 1gig >drive to put in it. And of course, I have some questions. i > >1. Does VMS 6.2 know about ISO9660 cdroms out of the box? Hmmm, I wouldn't mind knowing what version can do this myself. >2. When doing a show dev on a VS3100/40, the cdrom drive should show > up on the device list, right? (I suspect I goofed up the wiring on the > CDROM case) Is the CD-ROM turned on? I won't say how long it took me to figure out that the external CD I put on my new DEC 3000/300LX last night started out turned on so I was actually turning it off. >3. can someone answer conclusively for me whether the vaxstation expects > the disk to have parity enabled? The lists I've read don't seem very > sure. Not quite sure what you mean here. It expects 512k blocks, if you want to boot off the install CD. However, I believe it will read CD's in standard drives once the system is up and running. >4. anything special about configuring cmu? I've gotten UCX to work in a past > life as a VMS sysadmin. Why bother unless you're short on memory. You can get UCX as part of the Hobbyist program, and apparently two more TCP stacks will be available on the Hobbyist program around the middle of this month (sorry can't remember which ones). On the other hand this assumes you can put your hands on the media somehow. However, to answer your question, configuring CMUIP is very easy. You'll probably want to replace the FTP portion, and there are some patches that I never could figure out how to install. Now that the new Hobbyist program is available all my VAXen run DECnet as does the one Alpha, the other Alpha runs DECnet and UCX. Next step, clustering. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 9 23:38:34 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: ARGH! Device names .... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309190445.009d6690@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <990309213910.2020045b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990309213606.00ac6a00@mcmanis.com> Ok, so I tried to boot again and let it sit and sit, it stopped with: ?4B CTRLERR, XQA0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 00000EE6 Now what? I know the card is plugged in correctly :-) --Chuck From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 9 23:34:02 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 09, 1999 09:29:14 PM Message-ID: <199903100534.WAA15834@calico.litterbox.com> > >2. When doing a show dev on a VS3100/40, the cdrom drive should show > > up on the device list, right? (I suspect I goofed up the wiring on the > > CDROM case) > > Is the CD-ROM turned on? I won't say how long it took me to figure out > that the external CD I put on my new DEC 3000/300LX last night started out > turned on so I was actually turning it off. Heh. Thought of that. The drive can eject when you push the button so the power IS on. > > >3. can someone answer conclusively for me whether the vaxstation expects > > the disk to have parity enabled? The lists I've read don't seem very > > sure. > > Not quite sure what you mean here. It expects 512k blocks, if you want to > boot off the install CD. However, I believe it will read CD's in standard > drives once the system is up and running. I should clarify. Does it expect its internal hard disks to have parity turned on or not? > Why bother unless you're short on memory. You can get UCX as part of the > Hobbyist program, and apparently two more TCP stacks will be available on > the Hobbyist program around the middle of this month (sorry can't remember > which ones). On the other hand this assumes you can put your hands on the > media somehow. Therein lies the problem. I can ftp CMU down and (if VMS knows about ISO9660 out of the can) hopefully install it from a home-made cdrom. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Mar 10 03:08:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Yipeee! Its alive ... Message-ID: <4.1.19990310010557.00afa910@mcmanis.com> Well, for the archives : On a uVax II you have to boot from XQA0 to netboot NetBSD. You have to have your MOP server serve you boot-DEQNA.mopformat. You should use a class C subnet (I was using a class B prefix) Now to figure out how to label the disk so that I can boot locally but ping globally. --Chuck From black at gco.apana.org.au Tue Mar 9 19:10:23 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: WAS: rebadged - etc etc etc References: <000e01be69ad$c8faf060$0c01a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <36E5C67E.1527AB3E@gco.apana.org.au> Jay West wrote: > The question of "what classic equipment was rebadged" is circular. > > Why don't we just change the question to "what classic equipment was never > rebadged". If we do that, the conversation is basically over :) > > Jay West Commodore Plus/4 ? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 10 05:01:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Linux (was: Interesting to note about Altairs...) In-Reply-To: <199903100021.AA16158@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903101002.LAA18193@horus.mch.sni.de> > The installation is the horror. Ever tried SuSE ? The last installation was done by my whife, I just told her brifly before installation what services I wanted to have (ISDN, web-server, WM, etc.) and she could install the complete system just following the SuSE installation procedure (one exception, I had also to provide the partition scheme). I did this as an test, if Linux is ready to be installed by someone thats not a freak or full time programmer, but rather a typical office person. > I have Red Hat and it doesn't like my > CDU-33, Slakware does... go figure. You are talking about the CDU-33A CD-ROM ? Automaticly detected by SuSE installations :) Gruss H. P.S.: I guess I'm a sworn SuSE follower :) -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 10 08:53:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Memorex manual Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990310085332.2ee76172@intellistar.net> I have a User's Guide for a Memorex 2079 Color Display Station that I picked up in some stuff. Does anyone need it? The cover says " A Burroughs Company" so it may also cover one of the Burrough's models. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 10 07:42:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Linux (was: Interesting to note about Altairs...) In-Reply-To: <199903101002.LAA18193@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > I did this as an test, if Linux is ready to be installed > by someone thats not a freak or full time programmer, but > rather a typical office person. Unfamiliar with SuSE. > You are talking about the CDU-33A CD-ROM ? > Automaticly detected by SuSE installations :) Yes. I have Red Hat, Slakware freeBSD 2.2.6 all three find the cdu33A only one works! The RedHat and FreeBSD versions say the CD loaded (their respective install cdroms!) must be music! A known good atapi Cdrom works fine but I only have one and use it in another system. Allison From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Mar 10 08:20:17 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990310091236.00a51560@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:00 PM 3/9/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Can you tell me much about the AC adapter? (why is it the adapter always >> gets lost. I didn't get one with the PowerBook 5300CS I bought last >> Saturday either.) I wonder if a generic adapter will be OK to use? > >DC 6V; 600mA. Hi Sellam, Could you tell him the polarity of the connections too? I just thought of this. It may be important for him if he has to replace the connector on a new generic adapter or and old, used unit. Power connector polarity may not be marked on the 5300CS as it occasionally is on computers, radios, tape decks, stuff. Sounds like from your authoritative reply, Sellam, you have one of these or at least a manual. Hence, my suggestion. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 10 08:22:01 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903081419.GAA02764@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: That, and they certainly made their own CPU's and terminals. The 2200 OS was just Basic, I believe. On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > Wang certainly used other components. Their big fixed disc drives are > > the same as Honeywell, who also got them from someone else. As the > > So it's more Wang's software that was stubbornly individualistic, I guess. > > -- Derek > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From lundo at interport.net Tue Mar 9 21:17:07 1999 From: lundo at interport.net (Robert Lund) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals Message-ID: <9903109210.AA921076249@mail.postperfect.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > The one attractive thing we loose by creating 60meg PDF files is the > > ability to browse pages without downloading the entire thing.... > > Or am I missing something in Acrobat that will pull pages on demand > > from a table of contents? > > If you "optimize" the PDF using Acrobat Exchange 3.0 or newer, and your > web server supports HTTP 1.1 byte-serving, and the user has the Acrobat > Reader plug-in for the browser, you do get page-at-a-time browsing. At least on the one-piece docs such as found on 36bit.org, the first page is displayed using the PDFViewer plug-in as soon as it's in, while Netscape continues to download the entire document in the background. But this isn't truly "pulling pages on demand", as the document has to be browsed serially. Thus Acrobat Reader's "Go To Page" command isn't provided in the PDFViewer plug-in. -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Robert Lund | Out here on the perimeter there are no stars + + lundo@interport.net | Out here we is stoned - Immaculate + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 10 08:40:16 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Mar 10, 99 09:22:01 am Message-ID: <199903101440.GAA17221@saul7.u.washington.edu> > > So it's more Wang's software that was stubbornly individualistic, I guess. > That, and they certainly made their own CPU's and terminals. The 2200 OS > was just Basic, I believe. I was also thinking of their word-processing systems. I spent a little bit of time trying to help Don Nichols extract some data from Wang word-processor disk images. (He is/was an occasional alt.folklore.computers poster, and if anyone here is interested in accordions and concertinas you will know his name from that scene.) I figured out a few of the data structures but I really need more information or internal specs. Anyway, about the system in question -- Some things are pretty straightforward. A file is a bunch of pages (in the paper sense) stuck together. A disk is a bunch of files stuck together. That part is pretty sensible actually and maybe even elegant. But there are some strange extra fields -- the system keeps track of the number of keystrokes you type... talk about Big Brother. And there may be some screen dumps at the beginning of the disk (that is, the title and formatting codes for some of the on-screen displays -- such as the catalog screen that you use to navigate a disk - are probably stored on the disk). Yet I didn't see any obvious code to display the screens. My theory is that the labor is divided between the ROM and the disk in a strange way; the ROM has some basic formatting routines but the data to be formatted comes off the disk. That would be the case for word-processing files, of course, but perhaps the same routines are used for screens that I would normally consider part of the OS. Don't most other proprietary word-processing systems (e.g., the DisplayWriter) just stick the entire program on disk? I haven't proven any of these speculations. I don't know enough about the machines. My impression (from doing detective work on this project, doing a little extra reading, and briefly playing with a 700 (?) calculator) is that Dr. Wang was a bit like Clive Sinclair in his design philosophy -- come up with some good ideas but then rely on them to do everything, sacrificing elegance for expedience. But I could be wrong; the people who use Wang's large mainframe systems seem to like them. -- Derek From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 10 08:52:04 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Burst Nibbler? In-Reply-To: <010d01be6aa0$fd67c320$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Mar 10, 99 01:21:57 pm Message-ID: <199903101452.GAA09210@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1571 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/7188f728/attachment.ksh From lundo at interport.net Tue Mar 9 21:07:29 1999 From: lundo at interport.net (Robert Lund) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals Message-ID: <9903109210.AA921077276@mail.postperfect.com> Eric Smith wrote: > For pages that consist solely of text and line art, scan them as 300 DPI > TIFF Class F Group 4. That takes only 40-120K per page. I put the > resulting images into a PDF file, since most people don't have any other > G4-capable reader, and G4 is supported as a native PDF image format. > [...] > Some results of my scanning can be seen at www.36bit.org. The decsystem-1080/1090 manual is quite readable, and the 136-page 12175kB PDF file averages out to about 89.5kB/page. Then, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > Example: 39-page A4-size document scanned at 300dpi is 1.5 MB in TIFF > format (Group 4 Fax compression), 84 MB in Level 1 PostScript (PStill > does not grok Level 2 PostScript produced by tiff2ps.) > > Result: 3.5 MB PDF (could be less, if PStill used CCITTFaxEncoding.) That comes to about 89.7 kB/page, which agrees with Eric's doc above. -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Robert Lund | Out here on the perimeter there are no stars + + lundo@interport.net | Out here we is stoned - Immaculate + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 10 11:02:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <199903100456.AA22269@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990310110220.3d2700d0@intellistar.net> At 11:56 PM 3/9/99 -0500, Megan wrote: > >>My source came through again. Today I picked up what is supposed to be a >>PDP-11/03. Can anyone point me to a good URL to identify the cards in it >>and provide some general info. I don't know anything about PDP-11s. > >Try the pdp-11 Field Guide... > >There is a copy I've been working on which you can find through a link >on my home_systems page... that text file will have the pointer to the >official version... Megan, Thanks, that's just what I was looking for. Do you know anything about "storage cards" made by National Memory Systems? There's one of those stuck in it. Assy # 980100996. Here's a list of what else I found in it: M7954 GP-IB interface M7270 LSI-11/2 16 bit CPU (2 of them) M9400YA 120 Ohm terminator w/ refresh and floppy boot M8400CF 16K word 16 bit MOS RAM M7940 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) M7946 RX01 floppy disk controller M7264 11/03 Proccessor w/ 4K work MOS RAM. Here's a list of the docs that I got with it: Introduction to RT-11 (missing some pages) Informer Computer terminal model D-301 Maintenance manual DECLAB Fortran Extensions User's Guide & update notice 1 LSI-11 WCS User's Guide RT-11 Software Support Manual RT-11 Documentation Directory RT-11 Fortran VO1C I have a couple of more questions. What did they use the GPIB interface for? Is it just an instrument interface or did it connect to some of the system devices like it did with the PET and HP computers? Are the LSI-11/2 CPUs needed in this system or does the 11/03 processor replace them? Is there any reason to have to 11/02 CPUs in it? I didn't get a powe supply with this, can I make one up using the voltages shown on the card cage or is there anything specail that I need to know about? Do the voltages have to be applied in a certain sequence or anything like that? Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 10 09:11:19 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson Message-ID: <370e5ded.36e68b97@aol.com> > >On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > > >> Can you tell me much about the AC adapter? (why is it the adapter always > >> gets lost. I didn't get one with the PowerBook 5300CS I bought last > >> Saturday either.) I wonder if a generic adapter will be OK to use? i used an a/c adaptor from my atari 2600 on my epson, and worked fine. I think the milliamp rating was off a little, but it did charge the computer's battery for a few minutes. david From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 10 10:20:59 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <199903100534.WAA15834@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Mar 9, 99 10:34:02 pm Message-ID: <199903101620.IAA12340@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1143 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/fbafa9fb/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 10 10:47:26 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <9903109210.AA921076249@mail.postperfect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990310104726.00c7cdb0@vpwisfirewall> As for prices: my searches show Adobe Acrobat at $175-$220, depending on version, and Adobe Acrobat Capture at $550, and - shockingly - 20,000 page "upgrade packs" to extend the functionality of Capture, at $375. That's right - it's limited and pay-as-you-go. I don't know the page limit for the initial version, and 20K pages is a lot of scanning. What about Adobe Circulate? From the product description at , it seems more appropriate to the task at hand, keeping the digital image as well as merging the OCR searchable text. - John From william at ans.net Wed Mar 10 10:57:05 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Will the owner... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990309185237.009635c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: > I'm surprised. I had the offer to do a group buy splattered all over the > list, and it garnered nearly 50 responses. I noticed, but was really not interested, so I deleted them. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Mar 10 10:58:40 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Will the owner... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 Yes, Rhode Island - the hub of historic computing. Why such a small state managed to independently grow two alike organizations boggles the mind. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Mar 10 11:02:16 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 In-Reply-To: <19990310005008.24030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > The AS/400 runs OS/400. It might use either a proprietary processor > designed specifically for the AS/400, or it might use a special variant > of a PowerPC RISC. I don't know how to tell from the model number. Likely an older one, as the new ones running the PowerAS chips are still quite valuable (hell, they still make 'em!). AS/400s are probably the best database boxes around, never break, never crash, and have a bizzare CISC architecture that makes the VAX look like a SPARC, but alas, are probably the most unhackable machines on the planet. IBM made them to play by IBM's rules, and no one elses. Linux/400 is unlikely, to say the least! William Donzelli william@ans.net From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 10 11:26:54 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 Message-ID: <199903101726.JAA08588@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1722 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/583cba83/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 11:27:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990310091236.00a51560@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > >DC 6V; 600mA. > > Could you tell him the polarity of the connections too? I just thought of > this. It may be important for him if he has to replace the connector on a > new generic adapter or and old, used unit. Power connector polarity may not > be marked on the 5300CS as it occasionally is on computers, radios, tape > decks, stuff. Oops, good point. Center Negative. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 11:31:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903101440.GAA17221@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > But there are some strange extra fields -- the system keeps track of the > number of keystrokes you type... talk about Big Brother. And there may be This is most likely for an "undo" feature. Sounds like some pretty powerful mechanism is in place actually. To actually store keystrokes implies that perhaps after closing down an application and re-running it you still have the ability to undo changes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 11:37:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: <370e5ded.36e68b97@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > i used an a/c adaptor from my atari 2600 on my epson, and worked fine. I think > the milliamp rating was off a little, but it did charge the computer's battery > for a few minutes. I assume you chopped the connector and soldered on the one that the Epson takes? Also, the Atari supply is 9v at 500mA, center positive. Are you sure you aren't thinking of something else, or that you just got real lucky? Perhaps it was a 2600 supply but one for an Atari 800 or 800 peripheral? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 10 12:02:43 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 10, 99 09:31:14 am Message-ID: <199903101802.KAA26726@saul3.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > But there are some strange extra fields -- the system keeps track of the > > number of keystrokes you type... talk about Big Brother. And there may be > > This is most likely for an "undo" feature. Sounds like some pretty > powerful mechanism is in place actually. To actually store keystrokes > implies that perhaps after closing down an application and re-running it > you still have the ability to undo changes. Normally I trust your judgement but I think this time you're wrong. It doesn't keep track of the keystrokes you type (as far as I know), just the NUMBER of keystrokes you type. That would not help make undoing any easier. Besides, the CPU is pretty limited, I'm sure. We're talking early-to-mid-80's dedicated word processor here (possibly earlier). I found out about that feature by looking in a third-party manual, BTW. It had a screen shot with a field labeled "number of keystrokes". -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 10 12:07:06 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <199903101726.JAA08588@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 10, 99 09:26:54 am Message-ID: <199903101807.KAA29317@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Quick question: are there any AIX gurus out there? I need to upgrade this > box to 4.1.5 or some Y2K compliant version. I have a contact at IBM who might > be able to get me the upgrade, but I was wondering if anyone out there has the > patches already. 4.2 is apparently right out as I doubt IBM supports the > POWER architecture anymore, but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. Sorry, I'm an AIX anti-guru. We have AIX machines here but I tend to avoid them. (I have wanted to play with the X-specific programs, but I forget the commands. Also I used to know about the "extract the manual entries from the database" program but I forget that command too.) > Naturally, Apple doesn't support the NS line anymore. Figures. At least you admitted you're off-topic. (Though it is an interesting machine and it's unsupported, so that counts for something... but not a tremendous amount.) Why not ask on the AIX newsgroups too? -- Derek From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 10 12:04:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:55 2005 Subject: ARGH! Device names .... Message-ID: <19990310180423293.AAA87@fuj03> In case anyone is interested in things of this nature, I have the following Multibus-1 hardware available for reasonable swap. iSBC 215 - Intel's "Generic" Winchester controller for "all" (14", 8", 5-1/4") drives. Has the scarce (nearly unheard-of) 8089 I/O (Intelligent DMA) processor. iSBC 214 - Intel's 4-Floppy disk + 2 HDD's adapter with an on-board '186. iSBC ??? - can't find an identifier, '186 CPU board with DRAM and ROM on board along with serial and parallel I/O + 512k on-board DRAM. Plessey 512K DRAM board with 256k of 4164's soldered in. somebody else's 128k DRAM (4116) board with provision for SECDED logic. 4- and 8-slot cardcages There's a Central Data FDC somewhere . . . Maybe it'll turn up. Dick From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 10 12:35:43 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <199903101807.KAA29317@saul3.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 10, 99 10:07:06 am Message-ID: <199903101835.KAA13010@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 966 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/c60e1ce9/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 10 13:28:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: When did VC show up on IBM big iron? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903101829.TAA11315@horus.mch.sni.de> > Does anyone recall when version control tools became available on IBM > mainframe OSs? I can't tell for IBM, but for /3x0 compatible SIEMENS systems the first LMS (Library Management System) I know showed up in 1973. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 10 12:29:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903101802.KAA26726@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > It doesn't keep track of the keystrokes you type (as far as I know), just > the NUMBER of keystrokes you type. That would not help make undoing any > easier. Besides, the CPU is pretty limited, I'm sure. We're talking > early-to-mid-80's dedicated word processor here (possibly earlier). Hummmmm, it may be otherwise. By the mid 80s the better word processing packages could and did keep an undo log. Heck even EDIT/KED on the PDP-11/RT-11 did it to a limited extent. VMS carried that to keystroke journaling and that was mid '80s too. Seems like another case of in the old days we couldn't do that, pish posh. The cpus may have been slow compred to the latest firebreathing monsters but they didn't run winders and were not written in code bloat plus plus resulting in remarkable things done in terrifically compact code. Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 12:42:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: What classic equipment was rebadged? In-Reply-To: <199903101802.KAA26726@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > This is most likely for an "undo" feature. Sounds like some pretty > > powerful mechanism is in place actually. To actually store keystrokes > > implies that perhaps after closing down an application and re-running it > > you still have the ability to undo changes. > > Normally I trust your judgement but I think this time you're wrong. > > It doesn't keep track of the keystrokes you type (as far as I know), just > the NUMBER of keystrokes you type. That would not help make undoing any > easier. Besides, the CPU is pretty limited, I'm sure. We're talking > early-to-mid-80's dedicated word processor here (possibly earlier). Yes, but this is Wang we're talking about, not Microsoft. You'd be surprised what you could do with an early-to-mid-80's dedicated word processor, which was basically just a computer with all the software development going into word processing. More research, grasshopper. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 10 12:54:00 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc Message-ID: <990310135400.202004bd@trailing-edge.com> >1. Does VMS 6.2 know about ISO9660 cdroms out of the box? You know, there is a handy VMS command called HELP: TIMVAX $HELP MOUNT MOUNT_EXAMPLES MOUNT MOUNT_Examples The following examples describe how to use the Mount utility with and without operator assistance. For examples 1 and 2, operator assistance is not required, assuming the volumes are in the drives. Examples 3 to 6 describe operator-assisted mounts. Examples 7 and 8 describe mounting ISO 9660 CD-ROM volume sets, example 9 makes subsystems on a volume accessible, and example 10 demonstrates mounting a shadow set. [...] 7.$ MOUNT/SYSTEM/MEDIA=CDROM $1$DKA1 USER %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, USER:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (1 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA1: (CDROM) $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/MEDIA=CDROM $1$DKA2 PROGRAMMING_1 %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, PROGRAMMING_1:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (2 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA2: (CDROM) $ MOUNT/SYSTEM/MEDIA=CDROM $1$DKA3 PROGRAMMING_2 %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, PROGRAMMING_2:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (3 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA3: (CDROM) MOUNT/SYSTEM/MEDIA=CDROM $1$DKA4 MANAGEMENT %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, MANAGEMENT:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (4 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA4: (CDROM) These commands mount each member of a four-member ISO 9660 volume set whose volume-set name is VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION. 8.$ MOUNT/SYSTEM/MEDIA=CDROM $1$DKA1,$1$DKA2,$1$DKA3,$1$DKA4 USER,PROGRAMMING_1,PROGRAMMING_2,MANAGEMENT %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, USER:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (1 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA1: (CDROM) %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, PROGRAMMING_1:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (2 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA2: (CDROM) %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, PROGRAMMING_2:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (3 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA3: (CDROM) %MOUNT-I-CDROM_ISO, MANAGEMENT:VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION (4 of 4) , mounted on _$1$DKA4: (CDROM) This command mounts four members of an ISO 9660 volume set whose volume set name is VMS_ONLINE_DOCUMENTATION. >2. When doing a show dev on a VS3100/40, the cdrom drive should show > up on the device list, right? (I suspect I goofed up the wiring on the > CDROM case) Yes, it should, as a "RO" (Read Only) device. One potential gotcha - your 3100 most likely has the host adapter at ID#6. So the CD-ROM obviously has to have a different ID. >3. can someone answer conclusively for me whether the vaxstation expects > the disk to have parity enabled? The lists I've read don't seem very > sure. It absolutely expects parity, though most drives will generate parity on output and ignore it on input if jumpered for no parity. It also prefers drives that can be jumpered for 512 bytes/sector (though in some cases it will succesfully do a MODE SELECT to override a 2048 byte/sector setting.). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 12:53:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 9, 99 05:30:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/18e18c10/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 12:56:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <002001be6a9e$fb0f1800$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Mar 9, 99 08:37:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/7a9827c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 13:34:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 10, 99 09:37:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1084 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/25316a96/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 13:09:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990310110220.3d2700d0@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 10, 99 11:02:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990310/175d0c0c/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Mar 10 13:54:47 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <36E6CE06.AF5AB554@bigfoot.com> Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 14:17:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <36E6CE06.AF5AB554@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. Just a basic dumb terminal. Nothing particularly special about it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Mar 10 14:18:08 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: Message-ID: <36E6D37E.32332F40@bigfoot.com> Thanks Sam, had a feeling it as but hated to see it get kicked or busted if it might be a "diamond ring in a trash heap" o to speak. Never heard the name that I'm aware of. If anyone has an interest in this unit, drop me a note and I can even get the model number tonight. It will inevitably go the way of the Edsel (to scrap) if I don't find some interest in it soon. Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. > > Just a basic dumb terminal. Nothing particularly special about it. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Mar 10 14:31:44 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <004b01be6b35$03dff440$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> >Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black >one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, >astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input >appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. Sure - Hazeltines in general but specifically the model 1500 were a "standard" of sorts for terminals long ago. I'd give it a home if no one else has an interest. It's not particularly rare at all, but has a sentimental value to probably most on the list here. If someone else here winds up getting it - keep in mind that I have a genuine hazeltine1500 manual if anyone needs it. Jay West From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Mar 10 14:34:13 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Mar 10, 1999 12:17:14 pm" Message-ID: <199903102034.OAA08387@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. > > Just a basic dumb terminal. Nothing particularly special about it. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > Actually, Hazeltine made graphics terminals. I know that they made vector graphics capable units, both real vector, and i think emulated vector using a raster screen. -Lawrence LeMay From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Mar 10 14:42:16 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Eagle II? In-Reply-To: <9903109210.AA921076249@mail.postperfect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990310144216.0094c6c0@texas.net> Anyone want an old Eagle II computer? It's been at the local Goodwill store for awhile. If someone will save it, I'll get it for them. Arfon From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Mar 10 14:47:23 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <01BE6B0D.4A999A80.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > > > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > > > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > > > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. I believe the one that I have is a Model 1420. I don't have it in front of me so, I could be wrong about the model. It's just a plain black, one piece, dumb terminal. Nothing special. The most curious thing about it is the location of the DIP switches. They are under a removable cover above the keyboard. It makes it convenient if you are trying to talk to a system and aren't sure of the comm parameters. I do have a set of manuals. If you have any questions about settings or emulations, I'll look them up for you. I don't think there are *that* many around so, I'm gonna keep mine. Steve Robertson - From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Mar 10 14:48:36 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Eagle II? Message-ID: <01BE6B0D.75F3EE60.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Wednesday, March 10, 1999 3:42 PM, Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:arfonrg@texas.net] wrote: > Anyone want an old Eagle II computer? It's been at the local Goodwill > store for awhile. If someone will save it, I'll get it for them. > > Arfon > Not familiar with the Eagle II. What is it? Steve Robertson - From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Mar 10 14:49:19 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <990310135400.202004bd@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Mar 10, 1999 01:54:00 PM Message-ID: <199903102049.NAA18873@calico.litterbox.com> > You know, there is a handy VMS command called HELP: Eeep. I didn't read far enough down on the examples. > >2. When doing a show dev on a VS3100/40, the cdrom drive should show > > up on the device list, right? (I suspect I goofed up the wiring on the > > CDROM case) > > Yes, it should, as a "RO" (Read Only) device. > One potential gotcha - your 3100 most likely has the host adapter at ID#6. > So the CD-ROM obviously has to have a different ID. Aha. this explains a great deal. I'll make sure my cdrom is set to something besides 6. I still suspect its devselect wiring is munged so if that doesn't get it I think I know what to do. > It absolutely expects parity, though most drives will generate parity on output > and ignore it on input if jumpered for no parity. It also prefers drives that > can be jumpered for 512 bytes/sector (though in some cases it will succesfully > do a MODE SELECT to override a 2048 byte/sector setting.). Ahhh. Okay. I'll try the drive as is, then. :) Many thanks, Tim. -Jim -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 10 14:50:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <990310155001.202004bd@trailing-edge.com> >> I have a couple of more questions. What did they use the GPIB interface >> for? Is it just an instrument interface or did it connect to some of the >> system devices like it did with the PET and HP computers? Are the >AFAIK DEC never supported disks on the GPIB. It's just a card to link up lab >equipment, etc. Of course you _could_ write a driver for a GPIB disk, but >it's not going to be an easy job. It's not that hard - everything you need to know about making a bootable device driver under RT-11 is documented with extreme clarity and many examples. Adding RSX-11 support for a new device to standalone BRU, now, that's not an easy job! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Mar 10 14:53:02 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Acoustic Coupled Modems & papertape.... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990310145302.0094b100@texas.net> Anyone know a where I can find an old RS-232 Acoustic coupled modem? How about the specifications for paper-tape (i.e. hole spacing, paper width, etc.)? From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Mar 10 14:43:20 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: OT ? IBM AS400/9404 & HP9000/832 References: Message-ID: <36E6D966.D7B59B7C@bigfoot.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > The AS/400 runs OS/400. It might use either a proprietary processor > > designed specifically for the AS/400, or it might use a special variant > > of a PowerPC RISC. I don't know how to tell from the model number. > > Likely an older one, as the new ones running the PowerAS chips are still > quite valuable (hell, they still make 'em!). > > AS/400s are probably the best database boxes around, never break, never > crash, and have a bizzare CISC architecture that makes the VAX look like a > SPARC, but alas, are probably the most unhackable machines on the planet. > IBM made them to play by IBM's rules, and no one elses. Linux/400 is > unlikely, to say the least! While they *generally* do't croak, our AS/400/9406-5xx (model 740) with the latest OS/400 finally had a crash the other day, requiring a full (with power still on) user reset. First time for everything I guess. RPG/400 is definitely a brain burner though, especially if you're used to COBOL. IBM has a 400 site up at http://www.as400.ibm.com/home.htm and there are tons of related newsgroups and other sites on the 400's as well. The AS/400e series are the newest verions and our 9406-5xx etup like we have it in the "400e" series retails around $1.3mil from IBM. Not sure what size the 9404 is but I'll have to look it up at work tonight From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Mar 10 15:07:43 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Eagle II? In-Reply-To: <01BE6B0D.75F3EE60.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990310150743.00931bd0@texas.net> No clue.... Big blue case... Built-in monitor, two 5.25" black discs (like the TRS-80 Model IIIs). I think it was a Z-80 computer. At 03:48 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Wednesday, March 10, 1999 3:42 PM, Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:arfonrg@texas.net] wrote: >> Anyone want an old Eagle II computer? It's been at the local Goodwill >> store for awhile. If someone will save it, I'll get it for them. >> >> Arfon >> > >Not familiar with the Eagle II. What is it? > >Steve Robertson - > > > From max82 at surfree.com Wed Mar 10 15:34:31 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available Message-ID: Allright, I have the list of stuff that I can ship. Please reply to me personally, first come - first served. Read the whole e-mail there are some goodies at the bottom. Much of this stuff I would prefer if it went to someone who has historical interests in mind. Most of this stuff I will ship anywhere for the price of shipping. Package of original Mac IIci manuals includes thin Macintosh Reference booklet, Getting started book, and the system software disks (6.0.?). Microsoft Works: Lessons booklet Hypercard 1.2.2 package includes User's Guide, Introduction to Scripting, and the hypercard disks. Mac SE Owner's Guide (2x) (thin) Mac Plus Owner's Guide (thin) System Software 6.0 User's guide (fairly thick) Applelink 6.0 User's guide (average thickness) (old network program. I could be persuaded to find the floppies) Macintosh Utilities User's guide (average thickness) (for System 6) A disassembled Macintosh IIx in unknown condition. This is missing the ROM SIMM, but it has RAM, the hard drive, a video card, a PSU, and the motherboard. It's an '030 w/math coprocessor. Would like some small payment beyond the shipping charge. System 7.0 demo CD (EBAY ALERT!) This is simply an awesome CD. It is the demos that would be run in-store, using hypercard. It only runs on System 7 and below, though. This is a future classic, or simply e-bay bait. Apple Nov. 1990 Service Source CD Apple reference/presentations lib. v.4.0 and v.7.0 CD Apple Lan Literacy 1000 CD 1989 Welcome to Macintosh demo CD Sigma demo CD Farallon's Greatest Hits Black Album CD Mac Showcase (1988) CD Macromind demo CD --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Wed Mar 10 15:38:21 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Sony test CD-ROM Message-ID: I found a Sony CD-ROM test disc type 2.0 copyright 1987. It's up for grabs, I'm talking to people who would actually use this to test CD-ROM drives. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From pechter at pechter.ddns.org Wed Mar 10 16:07:49 1999 From: pechter at pechter.ddns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <199903101835.KAA13010@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Mar 10, 1999 10:35:43 am" Message-ID: <199903102207.RAA01523@pechter.ddns.org> > ::> Naturally, Apple doesn't support the NS line anymore. Figures. > :: > ::At least you admitted you're off-topic. (Though it is an interesting > ::machine and it's unsupported, so that counts for something... but not a > ::tremendous amount.) Why not ask on the AIX newsgroups too? > > I tried comp.unix.aix and the response was alternately "what's an NS500" or > "use linuxppc". I've become rather attached to AIX, though, especially > (m)smit. Like our system admin says, smit happens. :-) As for my question > about 4.1.4->4.1.5p, I got a load of zilch nada. > The problem is most AIX groups only have a clue on IBM hardware. I don't see any reason Power architecture would be dropped in 4.2.x. I was still running RS6000/550 systems and seeing no problem upgrading them to 4.2.x. Probably you'd find the 4.2 stuff would work (depending on if there were any Apple specific device drivers) that weren't on the CDROM. Bill From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Mar 10 16:50:28 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Eagle II? Message-ID: <19990310.165028.236.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> According to _The_Microcomputer_Buyers_Guide_ (1983 edition): "The Eagle II, III, and IV integrate the the CPU, memory, disk storage, CRT, display, and keyboard into one desktop unit. The basic features common to all systems are: Z80A CPU (4Mhz); 64Kb of memory,; two serial I/O ports; one Centrinonics compatible parallel port; one paprllel port for hard disk expansion; 12" green CRT display (1920 characters); 75-key keyboard; and various disk storage capabilities depending upon the model. The Eagle II includes two 5.25" mini-floppy disks of 390kb storage capacity each." The entry goes on to say that a 7.5 or 10mb wichester was available for it, and that it was supplied with CP/M & CBASIC. Sounds like a pretty standard issue CP/M box, in vogue at the time. MSRP (in 1983) was $2,995. Eagle Computer was located in Los Gatos, CA. On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:07:43 -0600 Arfon Gryffydd writes: >No clue.... Big blue case... Built-in monitor, two 5.25" black >discs >(like the TRS-80 Model IIIs). I think it was a Z-80 computer. > > >At 03:48 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >>On Wednesday, March 10, 1999 3:42 PM, Arfon Gryffydd >[SMTP:arfonrg@texas.net] wrote: >>> Anyone want an old Eagle II computer? It's been at the local >Goodwill >>> store for awhile. If someone will save it, I'll get it for them. >>> >>> Arfon >>> >> >>Not familiar with the Eagle II. What is it? >> >>Steve Robertson - >> >> >> > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From draven at topeka.cjnetworks.com Wed Mar 10 16:54:57 1999 From: draven at topeka.cjnetworks.com (draven) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If still avaible I would like the following items: Mac SE Owner's Guide Mac Plus Owner's Guide Also I have a Mac IIx sans processor so please tell me if you would be willing to send just the '030 processor. -Zach From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Mar 10 17:10:23 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols Message-ID: <19990310.171023.236.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Does anyone have the docs for these HP protocols? They're used to communicate with HP HPIB disk drives and stuff. The Amigo protocol is the oldest. Then the CS-80, and the SS-80 is the newest. I think any of these would be relevent to the work I'm doing. Joe: You mentioned you had the Amigo protocol. If you can dig it up, that would be cool, but only if time allows! Thanks. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 10 02:23:04 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: Jim Strickland "Re: vax, cdroms, etc" (Mar 9, 22:34) References: <199903100534.WAA15834@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <9903100823.ZM19757@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 9, 22:34, Jim Strickland wrote: > > >3. can someone answer conclusively for me whether the vaxstation expects > > > the disk to have parity enabled? The lists I've read don't seem very > > > sure. > > > > Not quite sure what you mean here. It expects 512k blocks, if you want to > > boot off the install CD. That means that only a few CD-ROM drives will be bootable, such as Toshiba 3301, 3401, and a few old Sony drives -- and all of those will need to be set up correctly. On the Toshibas, that means a minor internal modification, unless you get one that was previously used on a Vax, Sparcstation, or SGI. > > However, I believe it will read CD's in standard > > drives once the system is up and running. Which suggests it knows to issue a SCSI command to set the blocksize after booting, which almost all SCSI-2 CD-ROMs obey. > I should clarify. Does it expect its internal hard disks to have parity turned > on or not? I don't know for a Vax or VMS, but it shouldn't do any harm to disable it on most devices. Most devices always generate the parity, and the setting only determines whether they check it on input. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 10 18:01:07 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 10, 99 04:34:31 pm Message-ID: <199903110001.QAA07181@saul5.u.washington.edu> Max Eskin wrote: > 7 and below, though. This is a future classic, or simply e-bay bait. Shouldn't that be eBait? -- Derek From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Mar 10 13:02:25 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <199903101726.JAA08588@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199903110003.TAA12251@smtp.interlog.com> On 10 Mar 99 at 9:26, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is definitely OT. > > I have, about six feet away from me, a brand spanking hardly used Apple > Network Server 500. Nice unit. I've managed to get AIX 4.1.4.0 on it (provided > with the system) and CDE runs well. No cc or xlc, but we have some RS/6000s > here, so I built gcc on one of them and copied the binaries over and now I > have a Perl and a decent compiler (had to steal as from the RS/6000s also). > It's a 603e PPC emulating an RS/6000 (!), 132MHz, 32MB RAM. Fast sucker. > Bookstore buys this guy to handle their database system, vendor says we don't > support it, so it goes into the server room powered off for almost two years > until the tech guy decides he doesn't want it anymore and tells me I can use > it to my heart's content if I can fix it. So I did! :-) > > Quick question: are there any AIX gurus out there? I need to upgrade this > box to 4.1.5 or some Y2K compliant version. I have a contact at IBM who might > be able to get me the upgrade, but I was wondering if anyone out there has the > patches already. 4.2 is apparently right out as I doubt IBM supports the > POWER architecture anymore, but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. > > I've also thought about linuxppc on this. Any ideas from those willing to > perpetuate yet another OT thread? ;-) > > Naturally, Apple doesn't support the NS line anymore. Figures. > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin -------------------- > You might try the PS2 newsgroup. Some very knowledgeable people on there. ISTR several AIX threads a while back. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 10 18:07:33 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <36E6CE06.AF5AB554@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: Hazeltines were an early terminal used on a number of machines, if I remember correctly. On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From red at bears.org Wed Mar 10 18:27:52 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <9903100823.ZM19757@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That means that only a few CD-ROM drives will be bootable, such as Toshiba > 3301, 3401, and a few old Sony drives -- and all of those will need to be > set up correctly. On the Toshibas, that means a minor internal > modification, unless you get one that was previously used on a Vax, > Sparcstation, or SGI. Almost any Plextor CD-ROM drive will have a jumper that will enable it to be used on a host expecting 512k blocks. I understand that many newer Toshiba CD-ROMs will also work equally well with 512k or 2048k blocks. As far as I'm aware, of the older Toshiba CD-ROM drives only the 3201B (3401B? I forget) is modifiable. Real DEC RRD-42 drives turn up on eBay occasionally, but I understand they use a non-standard caddy so make sure you get one. I learned this from Tim Shoppa so I'm sure he can correct me if I'm wrong. ok r. From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Mar 10 18:18:13 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols In-Reply-To: Jeffrey l Kaneko's message of Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:10:23 -0600 References: <19990310.171023.236.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <199903110018.QAA00587@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > Does anyone have the docs for these HP protocols? Parts of CS/80, from the 7941/7945 service manual. I'd like to get info on the rest too. > The Amigo protocol is the oldest. Then the CS-80, > and the SS-80 is the newest. I think any of > these would be relevent to the work I'm doing. For real? Can you talk about it? -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Mar 10 18:24:57 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Acoustic Coupled Modems & papertape.... In-Reply-To: Arfon Gryffydd's message of Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:53:02 -0600 References: <3.0.3.32.19990310145302.0094b100@texas.net> Message-ID: <199903110024.QAA00872@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Anyone know a where I can find an old RS-232 Acoustic coupled modem? Keep looking, they turn up. > How about the specifications for paper-tape (i.e. hole spacing, paper > width, etc.)? Hole spacing is 0.1". 8-level tape is 1" wide, with 3 holes, then a smaller-diameter sprocket hole, then 5 holes. There also exist 7- and 5-level tapes which are simply narrower (3+1+4, 3+1+2), and maybe also a six-level tape but I don't know what used it. Somewhere I have what looks to be a parallel tape reader with a knob that rotates different-width guides into place, but it has no manufacturer information. -Frank McConnell From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 10 18:32:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990310104726.00c7cdb0@vpwisfirewall> (message from John Foust on Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:47:26 -0600) References: <3.0.5.32.19990310104726.00c7cdb0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <19990311003247.32230.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > As for prices: my searches show Adobe Acrobat at $175-$220, depending on > version, and Adobe Acrobat Capture at $550, and - shockingly - > 20,000 page "upgrade packs" to extend the functionality of > Capture, at $375. That's right - it's limited and pay-as-you-go. No, no, no. "Acrobat Capture" is a product aimed at service bureaus to do bulk conversion. "Acrobat Exchange" (which will be renamed simply "Acrobat" starting with the soon-to-be-released version 4.0) includes a "Capture Module" which does OCR. You don't have to pay $550, and you don't have to buy refills. I think the deal with "Acrobat Capture" is that it will directly control high-end scanners and do thousands of pages in unattended batch mode. They have deliberately crippled "Acrobat Exchange" to prevent its use in that manner, buy allowing only page-at-a-time scanning, and by not importing multi-page TIFF files. I get around that by scanning the pages in a separate program, using a hacked version of PDFlib/imagepdf to import the images into a PDF file, and then using Exchange only for the OCR and Optimization. > What about Adobe Circulate? From the product description at > , it seems more > appropriate to the task at hand, keeping the digital image as well > as merging the OCR searchable text. Which is exactly what I've been doing with Exchange. I'll have to read about Circulate and find out what's different about it. Eric From rcini at email.msn.com Wed Mar 10 18:40:02 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Fresh content posted tonight Message-ID: <00aa01be6b57$b8711ca0$a17a2599@office1> Hello, all: As promised, I just uploaded my latest KIM-1 stuff. Enjoy! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 10 18:54:24 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Acoustic Coupled Modems & papertape.... In-Reply-To: <199903110024.QAA00872@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Mar 10, 99 04:24:57 pm Message-ID: <199903110054.QAA30232@saul6.u.washington.edu> Frank McConnell wrote: > Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > How about the specifications for paper-tape (i.e. hole spacing, paper > > width, etc.)? > Hole spacing is 0.1". 8-level tape is 1" wide, with 3 holes, then a > smaller-diameter sprocket hole, then 5 holes. There also exist 7- and > 5-level tapes which are simply narrower (3+1+4, 3+1+2), and maybe also > a six-level tape but I don't know what used it. I think that 6-level tape was popular in the publishing industry for controlling Linotypes. They extended one of the 5-bit codes by adding an extra bit for upper/lower case. Of course that's different from the figure/letter shift mechanism that was already in the code (which some people call upper/lower case). HAVING BOOKS IN ALL CAPS WOULDN'T SELL VERY WELL I THINK. I've seen a Teletype with a 6-bit character set but I haven't looked at the type bars to see what specific characters the thing prints. (It doesn't work -- some bars need to be realigned or remade -- so I couldn't just try it out.) -- Derek From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Mar 10 18:57:07 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <000a01be6b5a$170e62c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >>My Dyna Micro came without any chips, they apparently have ben canibalized > >I assume you've saved the list I posted the other night, then :-) The articles have the nomenclature so no problem there > >> is there any way that I can obtain a 1702 with KEX??? > >Since it was posted to the list, I feel I can mail it out to anyone on >the list who wants it (I'll not post it again since I can't believe too >many people need it). Same here got the listing > >Then all you need to find is someone with a 1702 programmer (I _must_ get >mine out) and some 1702 chips. Or I suppose you could stick it into a >2716 and wire up a kludge-board to link it to the MMD1. Kludge would work but I would lose the authenticity of the appartus. I'd much prefer to find a source of 1702 and a programmer :) > >-tony > From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Mar 10 19:02:46 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <000f01be6b5a$e0b8f900$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Well I tried to sign up with geocities (it banged on me...) they don't seem to like people using their free service for a storage space for an outside site: Please refrain from using your Personal Home Page (free or GeoPlus), GeoShop or GeoCities Chat and Forum session for the following activities: 7.Developing restricted or password-only access pages, or hidden pages or images (those not linked to from another accessible page); 8.Using your home page (or directory) as storage for remote loading or as a door or signpost to another home page, whether inside or beyond GeoCities; As for Yahoo I could not find where to sign up... But I like the idea and will be looking around for solutions. Francois >Suggestion. Get a free yahoo or geocities web space so you can post this >info at no out of pocket cost to you. You can put a link to the scans >from your web site. > >Take advantage of what the web has to offer. It doesn't all need to be in >one place anymore. Think distributed! To the end user its all the same >anyway. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 18:48:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <990310155001.202004bd@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Mar 10, 99 03:50:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/df080122/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 18:49:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Acoustic Coupled Modems & papertape.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990310145302.0094b100@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Mar 10, 99 02:53:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/940bf93b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 18:57:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols In-Reply-To: <19990310.171023.236.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Mar 10, 99 05:10:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/24f33464/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 19:35:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer In-Reply-To: <000f01be6b5a$e0b8f900$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Francois wrote: > Well I tried to sign up with geocities (it banged on me...) they don't seem > to like people using their free service for a storage space for an outside > site: > > Please refrain from using your Personal Home Page (free or > GeoPlus), GeoShop or GeoCities Chat and Forum session for the > following activities: > > 8.Using your home page (or directory) as storage for remote > loading or as a door or signpost to another home page, whether > inside or beyond GeoCities; So? Its not like they're going to check all 50,000 web pages that are setup on their server. And if you believe in following all the rules, this was not exactly a rule. It was just a request to refrain from doing these things, which in my mind is optional. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 10 19:56:08 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <36E6CE06.AF5AB554@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <36E722B8.A8705622@rain.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. They made quite a few different models of terminals, and one thing I have heard but not yet confirmed, is that one of the models had some core memory in it. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 10 20:00:01 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" "Re: vax, cdroms, etc" (Mar 10, 19:27) References: Message-ID: <9903110200.ZM20572@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 10, 19:27, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > That means that only a few CD-ROM drives will be bootable, such as Toshiba > > 3301, 3401, and a few old Sony drives -- and all of those will need to be > > set up correctly. On the Toshibas, that means a minor internal > > modification, unless you get one that was previously used on a Vax, > > Sparcstation, or SGI. > Almost any Plextor CD-ROM drive will have a jumper that will enable it to > be used on a host expecting 512k blocks. I'd forgotten about the Plextors. > I understand that many newer Toshiba CD-ROMs will also work equally well > with 512k or 2048k blocks. As far as I'm aware, of the older Toshiba > CD-ROM drives only the 3201B (3401B? I forget) is modifiable. All the newer Toshibas -- and most other SCSI-2 CD-ROMs -- will accept the appropriate MODE SELECT command. The 3201, 3301, and 3401 all have internal jumper pads to hardwire the block size. I think the 5401 does as well. The 3601 and later don't (the pads are there, but they don't set the block size). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 10 20:07:04 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Burst Nibbler? Message-ID: <008401be6b63$ddca2760$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999 2:22 Subject: Re: Burst Nibbler? >::Have a friend that has acquired a heavily optioned up Commodore 64. > >Whee, the best kind. :-)))) If you say so :^) >(This is coming from memory, apologies for any inaccuracies.) Any port in a storm.... >Dolphin DOS is actually a set of ROM upgrades, like JiffyDOS. As long as he >has the matching Kernal ROM in the 64, and the matching DOS ROM in the 1541 >(check the board, they should be labeled), he should be golden. Seems to be the case. (I should point out I haven't seen the machine/drives yet, this is on a verbal description) >The author is, fortunately for you, an Aussie -- his name is David Huggins. Good grief. A miracle. >Unfortunately, I don't have a current contact address for support. I'll put out some feelers. Someone will know... >Burst nibblers are simply GCR copy programs. You won't need one for this >drive (and I don't think the 1541 could support it anyway, since burst >transfer is a 1571<->128 serial trick). Hmmm, I'm starting to wonder exactly what this guy has. He mentioned he also had a 128. He might have this in a 1571 instead of a 1541. He's pretty vague when asked for numbers. He said he had a disk drive with it, I asked if it was a 1541 and he said, yeah, sounds like it.. So maybe it ain't. I might sit on this until he brings the machine in to the shop. He's very limited in knowledge, so me might have fed me some duff gen. > Where does it say he needs the burst nibbler? I think someone has their signals crossed. Seems to have come from the previous owner, but this guy might not know the right questions to ask too. Or he might have been asking specifically about copying stuff. I'll clarify this and get back to you. Thanks for your help... Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 10 20:05:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Acoustic Coupled Modems & papertape.... References: <3.0.3.32.19990310145302.0094b100@texas.net> Message-ID: <36E724CF.EF77F16@rain.org> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > Anyone know a where I can find an old RS-232 Acoustic coupled modem? I have a number of them in the collection. I *think* I have an extra Novation although I don't know if it includes docs or not. Amateur Radio responsibilities will keep me from TRW this month , but I plan on being down there in April. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 10 19:41:14 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc Message-ID: <990310204114.202001a5@trailing-edge.com> >Almost any Plextor CD-ROM drive will have a jumper that will enable it to >be used on a host expecting 512k blocks. >I understand that many newer Toshiba CD-ROMs will also work equally well >with 512k or 2048k blocks. As far as I'm aware, of the older Toshiba >CD-ROM drives only the 3201B (3401B? I forget) is modifiable. I think you mean "512" and "2048" instead of "512k" and "2048k" :-). (At least you aren't talking about your processor speed in milliHertz!) >Real DEC RRD-42 drives turn up on eBay occasionally, but I understand they >use a non-standard caddy so make sure you get one. I learned this from Tim >Shoppa so I'm sure he can correct me if I'm wrong. RRD40's take non-standard caddies. I'm not sure about RRD42's off the top of my head. They're also as slow as molasses. I'd estimate, in modern "X" speed terms, that a RRD40 is about 0.1X (i.e. if you're lucky you get one sector off every ten revolutions.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 20:35:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <36E722B8.A8705622@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > > astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > > appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. > > They made quite a few different models of terminals, and one thing I have > heard but not yet confirmed, is that one of the models had some core memory > in it. If that's so then it would have to have been a very early model, like very early 70s, but I still can't see it being true. Where did you hear this? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From max82 at surfree.com Wed Mar 10 20:35:47 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:56 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, draven wrote: >Mac SE Owner's Guide > >Mac Plus Owner's Guide > >Also I have a Mac IIx sans processor so please tell me if you would be >willing to >send just the '030 processor. Sure, just give me your address --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 10 20:45:33 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc Message-ID: <00b001be6b69$3d493aa0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 10 March 1999 5:02 Subject: Re: vax, cdroms, etc >Why bother unless you're short on memory. You can get UCX as part of the >Hobbyist program, and apparently two more TCP stacks will be available on >the Hobbyist program around the middle of this month (sorry can't remember >which ones). My money would be on Multinet and/or TCPware. >Now that the new Hobbyist program >is available all my VAXen run DECnet as does the one Alpha, the other Alpha >runs DECnet and UCX. Next step, clustering. Sniff. The hobbyist program is apparently STILL not available to us in Oz. Not even the 'old' one. Anyone know what the problem is? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 20:23:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Acoustic Coupled Modems & papertape.... In-Reply-To: <199903110054.QAA30232@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 10, 99 04:54:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/69824b04/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Mar 10 21:07:47 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990308212748.00981c70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990310220747.00913610@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Sellam Ismail had spoken clearly: >On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> 1. His keyboard from the sounds of it, is (at best) *seriously* wounded... >The //c keyboard wants to be torn down and rebuilt. It had these >ridiculous metal hinges attached to each one to give them their feel. >After a while the hinges go bad and start making the keys stick. So the >solution is to lift the keycaps and remove each hinge. The click will be >gone but the keyboard will be much nicer to type on. Sounds like a good idea, but nicer for whom to type on? Personally, I like the key click - but I could live without it. This person is disabled and seems to need some tactile feedback so he can tell if he pressed the key enough... he may not want to give up the keyclick... Can the keyboard be torn down, cleaned, and restored to original (or damn-near original) condition? I'm not afraid of work... >> 2. He's got some software on disks that (i believe) he's assuming are >> unreadable. He speaks of the disks being dirty & worn, but doesn't actually >> mention that he's attemted and failed to see if they still work. He is >> willing to purchase new (if possible) disks of this software, which he's >> not sure what it was called... but he says it was the word processor and >> spelling checker from "border bond" [sic] software... which I'm assuming >> would be "Broderbund." He cannot remember the actual titles, but he says he >> has the original disks, so I do have access to them if necessary. >Sounds like Bank Street Writer. I don't know why he'd want to use that. Maybe because that's what he's accustomed to? He'd used the system for many years, and seems insistant that this is what he wants. Darned near everyone seems to hate vi on the unix platform, but a *very* close cousin to that is TS-EDIT, which I used for years, and actually liked it. And vi is the only *guaranteed* text editor on a Unix box, so it's a good idea to learn the very basics if you decide to become a *nix administrator-type person. >It was terrible in my opinion. Tell him he wants APpleWorks instead. Erm... he's what is commonly referred to as a "customer." Last time I checked the definition, they're always right. I'm not about to try to shoehorn him into new software that he'll "have" to learn, when it's not what he wants. >Integrated word processor, spread sheet and database. A much nicer >package, *if* you need a spreadsheet and database. He needs just the wordprocessor and spell checker. > and in 80-columns too (Bank Street Writer was implemented as 40 >characters in the hi-res mode). I don't know for sure, but he may like the lower column count for his less-than-optimal eyesight... but I've not asked him on that part. [[[Editor's Note: And for those of you who think you *cannot* do decent, business-type correspondance letters in 40column... My Tandy200 says otherwise...]]] >> *Any* help or information at all on this project would be most appreciated, >> so thank you all in advance. > >I'd be happy to help him out. Give him my e-mail address and we'll take >it from there. Normally, I'd have no problem with that, but he doesn't want his e-mail address public, and he wishes that I take care of the work -- he doesn't want to be bothered with all of the particulars of why, what, and how to fix the thing... he's just interested in the final product -- a working //c. He's by no means technical (I shielded his description of the 7" floppy drives from the list members... ;-) My being good with classic machines (tho mostly on the Tandy side of things), I mentioned I might be able to help him. He's put the ball in my court, now. ========================== And in other news......... ========================== Once upon a midnight dreary, Mike Ford had spoken clearly: >Start by taking it apart and giving it a good cleaning. Its just a few >screws and a little convincing, and the keyboard comes off as a unit with I >think just one more screw inside (which I hope to remember to put back in >one of mine next time I open it up). [snip] But does this only get the keyboard out of the computer, or does this tear down the keyboard itself... I've tried the "keyboard in the dishwasher" routine, and the "keyboard and the toothbrush" routine... and personally, I've not had any success with them. (This is not to say that it doesn't work... the only thing I've *ever* successfully glued together with superglue are my fingers. The stuff must work, to sell so much - but I must just be plain stupid regarding its use 'cause it doesn't ever work for me... that's why I use epoxy - works every time.) Subsequently, the only way I've ever successfully restored a keyboard (to better than new, I might add) is by full teardown, clean, lube (judiciously...) and reassemble. I have done this with several keyboards, and always had a winner. >I would not spend more effort than that, they are just too cheap. >Reluctant machines become organ donors for the more promising. Define "cheap." This is probably the only //c in existance in over a 50 mile radius of here... There's no source for spare parts around here (in any form) for at least 200 miles. No spare parts available... so all I have going for me *is* effort. What else is there for a poor, backwoods country geek to do??? ;-) Thanks to all, and I'm still open for ideas... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Mar 10 21:02:08 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols In-Reply-To: References: <19990310.171023.236.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990310215403.009e7580@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:57 AM 3/11/99 +0000, Tony Duell said something like: >> >> >> Guys: >> >> Does anyone have the docs for these HP protocols? >> They're used to communicate with HP HPIB disk drives >> and stuff. > >Can I add a 'me too' ;-). I've been looking for this info for about 3 >years now, and haven't managed to track it down yet... Yes, I'd like to get in on this too as a "me too". I've been looking for CS/80 info since 1990 or '91 when I got my HP 250 system. Must be a non-published protocol except for certain internal uses. My old HP CE friend who maintained the 250 for my company was even completely stymied in finding it back then too. If we get enough folks together maybe we can form a posse and . . . Anyway, I guess a real search should be for technical folks who worked at the Boulder, Colorado operation which is where I understand some of the computer and disk drive developement was done. Also, maybe somebody from the German HP operation where the 250's and others were originally made might be a source. Never know what might be lurking in an old closet or file cabinet of theirs :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 10 21:27:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: References: <9903100823.ZM19757@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I understand that many newer Toshiba CD-ROMs will also work equally well >with 512k or 2048k blocks. As far as I'm aware, of the older Toshiba >CD-ROM drives only the 3201B (3401B? I forget) is modifiable. Beware, I bought a Toshiba 32x for my AlphaStation 200 and it wouldn't boot the OpenVMS CD, I ended up going with a used Toshiba 4x. >Real DEC RRD-42 drives turn up on eBay occasionally, but I understand they >use a non-standard caddy so make sure you get one. I learned this from Tim >Shoppa so I'm sure he can correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the RRD-42 is a standard drive. The RRD-40 on the other had uses a really wierd caddy. If you get one of these drives make sure you get at least one caddy with it!!! I've heard that the caddy's are worth more than the drives! Another problem is that the RRD-40 doesn't seem to be supported in the latest version of OpenVMS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 21:24:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990310220747.00913610@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >ridiculous metal hinges attached to each one to give them their feel. > >After a while the hinges go bad and start making the keys stick. So the > >solution is to lift the keycaps and remove each hinge. The click will be > >gone but the keyboard will be much nicer to type on. > > Sounds like a good idea, but nicer for whom to type on? Personally, I like > the key click - but I could live without it. This person is disabled and > seems to need some tactile feedback so he can tell if he pressed the key > enough... he may not want to give up the keyclick... Well, unfortunately its this shitty keyclick mechanism that is making the keyboard sticky. Its either live with the stickiness or lose the click. > Can the keyboard be torn down, cleaned, and restored to original (or > damn-near original) condition? I'm not afraid of work... I'm sure it can but its a matter of replacing the spring levers under the keys. A better bet would be to find a //c with a keyboard that's still nice and replace it wholesale. If you can find him a //c+ your problem will be solved, and he'll have a nicer //c. > >It was terrible in my opinion. Tell him he wants APpleWorks instead. > > Erm... he's what is commonly referred to as a "customer." Last time I > checked the definition, they're always right. I'm not about to try to > shoehorn him into new software that he'll "have" to learn, when it's not > what he wants. Of course. Well, I can set him up with a copy of BSW if that's indeed what it is he wants. > But does this only get the keyboard out of the computer, or does this tear > down the keyboard itself... I've tried the "keyboard in the dishwasher" > routine, and the "keyboard and the toothbrush" routine... and personally, > I've not had any success with them. (This is not to say that it doesn't And you won't. Its not a dirt issue, its a mechanical issue. > Define "cheap." This is probably the only //c in existance in over a 50 > mile radius of here... There's no source for spare parts around here (in > any form) for at least 200 miles. No spare parts available... so all I have > going for me *is* effort. What else is there for a poor, backwoods country > geek to do??? ;-) comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. There's always a cheap //c up for sale there. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From draven at topeka.cjnetworks.com Wed Mar 10 21:24:43 1999 From: draven at topeka.cjnetworks.com (draven) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, draven wrote: >>Mac SE Owner's Guide >> >>Mac Plus Owner's Guide >> >>Also I have a Mac IIx sans processor so please tell me if you would be >>willing to >>send just the '030 processor. > >Sure, just give me your address > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) My address is: Zachary Snipe 2635 Missouri Lawrence, KS 66046 What is the cost of shipping and where should I send the check? -Zach From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 10 23:19:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols In-Reply-To: <19990310.171023.236.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990310231917.30573dc6@intellistar.net> Jeff, I had the Amigo protocall at one time but I don't remember where. I'll have to look for it again. FWIW CS 80 stands for Command Set 80. SS 80 stands for Sub-Set 80, it is a subset of the CS-80 protocall. Joe At 05:10 PM 3/10/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Guys: > >Does anyone have the docs for these HP protocols? >They're used to communicate with HP HPIB disk drives >and stuff. > >The Amigo protocol is the oldest. Then the CS-80, >and the SS-80 is the newest. I think any of >these would be relevent to the work I'm doing. > >Joe: You mentioned you had the Amigo protocol. >If you can dig it up, that would be cool, but >only if time allows! > >Thanks. > > >Jeff >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 10 23:22:41 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <36E6CE06.AF5AB554@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990310232241.3057957a@intellistar.net> Hazeltine is/was located in Mass if I remember correctly. They made a lot of RADAR consoles, we used them in the USAF. I do remember that the ones we had used electro-static deflection. You could rub the screen with a nylon cloth and the image would smear all over the place. Joe At 01:54 PM 3/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black >one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, >astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input >appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 10 21:29:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990310220747.00913610@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 10, 99 10:07:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/ab4009dc/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Wed Mar 10 21:35:16 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc Message-ID: <022201be6b71$a12e5fc0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >RRD40's take non-standard caddies. I'm not sure about RRD42's off the top >of my head. Standard ones - I have a couple. Dan From stanp at storm.ca Wed Mar 10 21:54:20 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: HP 7475A Plotter References: <001d01be6891$561de920$dcd84d0c@oemcomputer> <199903081811.KAA13183@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <36E73E68.39638AAB@storm.ca> Frank McConnell wrote: > Allen Rose, writing as "Mindy Fuchs" wrote: > > Last year you sent out a request for info about HP7475A Plotter > > pens. Like you, I am now trying to get one working. DId you find a > > source for pens? Also, do you have any idea where I can get a > > plotter manual? Even xerox copies of the important pages would > > help. ALso, any idea what cable is required. Thanks. If you haven't found a manual yet, send me private email with your address; I'll find my manual and photocopy it for you... Stan > > > As other folks have written, the pens come up on ebay sometimes. > They might be OK -- HP sold them with expiration dates and I don't > really know how well they keep, although (a) back in the 1980s we > didn't pay much mind to the expiration date on the package and had > no cause to regret it and (b) a friend who has purchased pens via > ebay has said that at least some of them were OK. > > The pens do dry out if left in the plotter though, even if they are > capped by the plotter or the pen carousel. I would not expect pens to > work unless they are in sealed packages. > > HP no longer sells pens. Last time I looked their web site referred > users to Koh-i-noor for pens and ink, and I think I managed to work out > that Koh-i-noor had refillable ink pens as well as new felt-tip pens. > > The 7475A is tricky and you may need more than pinouts for its port, > because if it's an RS-232 flavor, the DIP switches let you tell it > whether to behave like a terminal device or as an eavesdropper on an > existing terminal device's connection. To use it from a PC based > application you probably want the former; the latter is useful for > host-based graphics applications that are accessed from a terminal > but know of the existence of the eavesdropping plotter. > > -Frank McConnell From adept at mcs.net Wed Mar 10 22:00:35 1999 From: adept at mcs.net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: SunOS 4.0.3 References: <199902140126.TAA21422@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <36E73FE3.7A713E34@mcs.net> I am pretty sure I have some QIC carts with SunOS 4.0.x on it and I've also got a version of SunOS 4.0.? on floppies. Lemme look tomorrow and see if I have an extra QIC tape you can have. Dan Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > It looks like the last version of SunOS that I can run on a Sun 1/100U > is version 4.0.3, however i'm not sure if I have enough ram to use that > version. It looks like I can only add 2 ram boards, and all I have > are 1Meg ram boards... > > Does anyone have 4.0.3 that they could supply to me in some form? Or is > there a better alternative for sun 2's with low ram (sun 1/100U is > apparently very hardware equivalent to the earliest sun 2's, at least > from a software perspective). Perhaps there is a X11 version that might > run acceptably from a sun with 2Meg of ram. > > The Sun 1/100U does not have any way to connect peripherals such as > hard drives, so the unit will have to be booted from the network. > I guess its almost time for me to brush up on tftp protocol, assuming > I can find some OS to run on this computer. > > I dont suppose anyone has a sun multibus 4Meg memory board they would > be willing to trade? > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu -- Dan Stephans II | 1991 BMW K100LT | http://www.mcs.net/~adept Lisle, IL | IBA (SS1000, SS2000) | Official Sponsor of Joe Denton's 1999 IBR Signature brought to you by the letter X and Jim Kraus From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Mar 10 22:00:38 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Tom PIttman's Tiny BASIC for the 1802? Message-ID: <372b3f4d.2163364703@insight> Would anyone happen to know where I could find a copy of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC for the 1802, as described in Personal Computing, March 1979? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 10 22:13:11 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990310220747.00913610@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Maybe because that's what he's accustomed to? He'd used the system for many > years, and seems insistant that this is what he wants. Darned near everyone > seems to hate vi on the unix platform, but a *very* close cousin to that is > TS-EDIT, which I used for years, and actually liked it. And vi is the only > *guaranteed* text editor on a Unix box, so it's a good idea to learn the > very basics if you decide to become a *nix administrator-type person. Hmm? vi has been my main text editor since I started using it under TRS-Xenix 1.0 in 1983. When TS-Edit for OS-9 on the Color Computer showed up in 1985, I found it to be a very usable subset of vi. The only editing packages I count superior would be Model II Scripsit 2.0 and Scripsit-16 for Xenix (that last I would _dearly_ love to see ported to Linux, but nobody answers my emails inquiring about the status of the source code, is it owned by Tandy or Sanyo?). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 10 22:07:07 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <199903110407.AA22674@world.std.com> > Do you know anything about "storage cards" made by National Memory >Systems? There's one of those stuck in it. Assy # 980100996. I don't... I'm sure someone else here does... > Here's a list of what else I found in it: > >M7954 GP-IB interface >M7270 LSI-11/2 16 bit CPU (2 of them) >M9400YA 120 Ohm terminator w/ refresh and floppy boot >M8400CF 16K word 16 bit MOS RAM >M7940 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) >M7946 RX01 floppy disk controller >M7264 11/03 Proccessor w/ 4K work MOS RAM. Three processor boards?! You only need one... > Here's a list of the docs that I got with it: > >Introduction to RT-11 (missing some pages) >Informer Computer terminal model D-301 Maintenance manual >DECLAB Fortran Extensions User's Guide & update notice 1 >LSI-11 WCS User's Guide >RT-11 Software Support Manual >RT-11 Documentation Directory >RT-11 Fortran VO1C Which version of RT-11 are the docs for? > I have a couple of more questions. What did they use the GPIB interface >for? Is it just an instrument interface or did it connect to some of the >system devices like it did with the PET and HP computers? It is an instrument interface... whether one of those instruments could be another computer, I don't know... >Are the LSI-11/2 CPUs needed in this system or does the 11/03 processor >replace them? Depends on your needs... the 11/03 has memory, the 11/2's don't. The 11/2's take up less room. Both need a console interface board. >Is there any reason to have to 11/02 CPUs in it? You listed three... but no, no reason for 2 in a *working* machine. But the person who you got them from may have simply put them in the backplane to prevent damage, in which case it doesn't matter what's in it... >I didn't get a powe supply with this, can I make one up using the >voltages shown on the card cage or is there anything specail that I need >to know about? Do the voltages have to be applied in a certain sequence >or anything like that? What kind of backplane did you get? Someone here may have a spare so that you can get it working... Other than that, you might be able to get it working if you cobble something together... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 10 22:11:39 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <199903110411.AA25961@world.std.com> >Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black >one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, >astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input >appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. Yep, I remember them... one of the first video terminals I ever used, back on a decsystem-10 at WPI... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 10 22:17:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <199903110417.AA29808@world.std.com> <36E722B8.A8705622@rain.org> Message-ID: <199903110411.UAA08340@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > > They made quite a few different models of terminals, and one thing I have > heard but not yet confirmed, is that one of the models had some core memory > in it. If this is so, I wouldn't be surprised to find that that model is the Hazeltine 2000, a real piece of work. It's kind of boxy: one rectangular box for the monitor, with a black front and sort of goldenrod-shade-of-beige metal case, or maybe the ones I saw were just yellowed by exposure to chain-smoking programmers, and a matching yellowish boxy keyboard attached by way of a thick cable. The display is a relatively long-persistence green CRT, capable of showing twenty-something (24 I think) lines of 74 columns each. The ones I saw could not display lower case, but as they were talking to something whose native character set was FIELDATA there was no lower case that needed displaying. Best of all, it's too stupid to clear the screen when powered on, and likely as not what it greets you with first thing in the morning is a garbled version of what it was showing you last night when you turned it off. (There is a reset button, one of the round pushbuttons on the right edge of the keyboard, which clears the display should you like to start fresh.) So while I wouldn't be surprised to find that the display memory is core, I'd be even less surprised to find that it is some kind of acoustic delay line. I wish I had had the foresight to grab one when that PPOE got rid of them in the mid-1980s, because I haven't seen one since. I do seem to have kept a manual and my inventory says it is dated January 1975. -Frank McConnell From joe at barrera.org Wed Mar 10 22:27:08 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <004b01be54f0$1912cfa0$1af9adce@fpp> Message-ID: <002201be6b77$6f1bb680$4001010a@joebargx1> > hazeltine was a popular terminal, like the AMD Dumb terminal. The 1500 I think you mean ADM -- "American Dream Machine" (or so I've been told). - Joe From draven at topeka.cjnetworks.com Wed Mar 10 22:30:35 1999 From: draven at topeka.cjnetworks.com (draven) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available-Sorry about the last messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry about the last message or two that were accidently sent to the list. I had thought I was sending straight to him. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 10 22:48:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <00b001be6b69$3d493aa0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: >My money would be on Multinet and/or TCPware. A quick DejaNews search shows you are correct. >Sniff. The hobbyist program is apparently STILL not available to us in Oz. >Not even the 'old' one. >Anyone know what the problem is? I'd recommend contacting DECUS Australia. Several chapters have been added to the program in the last week and a half. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 10 22:52:17 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc Message-ID: <023e01be6b7a$f15ae280$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999 4:15 Subject: Re: vax, cdroms, etc >>My money would be on Multinet and/or TCPware. > >A quick DejaNews search shows you are correct. Makes sense. Thank you Process Software. I suspect the Madgoat crew may have had a hand in this too.......:^) >I'd recommend contacting DECUS Australia. Several chapters have been added >to the program in the last week and a half. I've emailed the contact person for the NOP SIG. If anyone knows, he will, I suspect. However there is no mention of it anywhere on the main DECUS Web site in Oz. Thanks Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 10 23:04:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: suggestion for list sanity? Message-ID: <19990311050420011.AAA161@fuj03> was that really "list" or was that a typo . . . "LOST" ??? Dick ---------- > From: Jim Strickland > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: suggestion for list sanity? > Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:58 PM > > I was wondering if it would be possible to add an "OT subgroup" to classiccmp > that people can choose to subscribe to or not. That way when something goes > as far afield as the operating system discussion or the argument about guns > in times past, those who wish to participate can simply agree to post to the > off-topic board and not irritate those who don't wish to participate. Might > be a good place for auction foo, too, although an additional subgroup for that > would also work. Would this be possible, oh list admin? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Mar 10 23:11:48 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <199903110411.UAA08340@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Out in the Garage of Forgotten Hardware, there languishes a Hazeltine Modular One.. much as Frank described it... one-piece boxy base with CRT housing sitting on top of a large square pedestal; detached keyboard with large multi-way round cable permanently affixed. IIRC, it is green hi-persistence, but I haven't had it on since the early 80's... I bought it at an electronics swapmeet to use for Amateur Packet Radio. It must be from the mid-70's.. tho it's buried too deep to get it down and open it up to see. Today's find: someone saw a vintage Leading Edge Model D at a yard sale and bought it for me... $5 including gorgeous amber monitor, keyboard and mouse. It took a few power-cycles to wake up the hard drive... but it's whirring contentedly beside me as I type... it has MS Word 5.5 and Symphony loaded, and tons of files I have yet to peruse. I had forgotten how much I like amber screens... and to think I wanted to buy one of these when they first came out.. but I was an order of magnitude too poor. Anyone remember the back-cover Leading Edge ads in Infoworld.. something to the effect of: "History Will Record as Profound Irony that the Most IBM-Compatible PC Was Not Made by IBM.." or something like that. Sic Transit Technology. Cheerz John From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Mar 10 23:43:07 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: E&L Mini-Micro Designer Message-ID: <001201be6b82$0c958a80$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Actually I don't like the series of information that they are requesting plus you are right but: We reserve the right to suspend or remove any page from the system which is brought to our attention and which we find, in our sole discretion, violates any of these page content guidelines or otherwise is in violation of the law. GeoCities does not actively monitor the content of Personal Home Pages, GeoShops, Forum posts or Chat posts, but we will investigate complaints of violation of these guidelines. Please submit any such complaints using our Content Violation Reporting Form. I'll think about it for a while and look for other opportunitiesat the same time. Francois >So? Its not like they're going to check all 50,000 web pages that are >setup on their server. And if you believe in following all the rules, >this was not exactly a rule. It was just a request to refrain from doing >these things, which in my mind is optional. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 10 23:43:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review Message-ID: I was just watching Beverly Hills Cop. In the police station offices, several shots: DEC Rainbows. :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 11 00:09:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I was just watching Beverly Hills Cop. > >In the police station offices, several shots: > >DEC Rainbows. > >:) Come on Sam, you call that a movie review? Gimme a break, I mean, were they turned on, was anyone using them, were they running CP/M or DOS, did they even have the correct monitors on them? Details man, details! :^) For all that goes, was their acting believeable? For an interesting appearance, try the Japanese movie, try "A Taxing Woman", I don't know what the computers are, but they're very interesting. I'm thinking of getting a copy on DVD just to watch the Kanji scroll across the computer screen :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 11 00:08:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Come on Sam, you call that a movie review? Gimme a break, I mean, were > they turned on, was anyone using them, were they running CP/M or DOS, did > they even have the correct monitors on them? Details man, details! :^) Background props, man! They did indeed have the correct monitors. A DEC Rainbow has to have the correct monitor to work. But they were never actually working anyway, just sitting there looking official. > For all that goes, was their acting believeable? I'm surprised the Rainbows did not take an Oscar that year. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 11 00:13:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: SunOS 4.0.3 In-Reply-To: <36E73FE3.7A713E34@mcs.net> References: <199902140126.TAA21422@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >> from a software perspective). Perhaps there is a X11 version that might >> run acceptably from a sun with 2Meg of ram. The smallest system I've seen X running on was a 4Mb Twinhead 386sx laptop, it was actually quite fast at previewing DVI files, which was what I needed X for. This was running Linux in '94 with a special reduced resources version of X-Windows. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 11 00:41:08 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: Message-ID: <36E76584.D8A62D4A@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > They made quite a few different models of terminals, and one thing I have > > heard but not yet confirmed, is that one of the models had some core memory > > in it. > > If that's so then it would have to have been a very early model, like very > early 70s, but I still can't see it being true. Where did you hear this? Don't remember, but IIRC, it came from someone who would have known. I have several Hazeltine terminals, and haven't taken the time yet to check them out. Ancient memory says something about saving settings, but don't know for sure. From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 11 01:13:34 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <36E6CE06.AF5AB554@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <36E76D1E.142CEBDD@rain.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, Another bit of trivia; the first employee of Hazeltine retired here in Santa Barbara and was living with his daughter until he died (don't recall his name right now but he did have a PhD.) I have the Sharp 7000 that was presented to this guy when he retired from Hazeltine. His daughter contacted me to see if it was worth anything a couple of years ago, and after she had no success with trying to sell it ($25.00 or so), she gave it to me. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 11 04:15:23 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: suggestion for list sanity? In-Reply-To: <199903100316.UAA15276@calico.litterbox.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 09, 1999 12:56:37 PM Message-ID: <199903110916.KAA06639@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Possible or not, it isn't practical as the offenders will continue to post > > as they please, and many things don't start or stay off topic. > > Filter your email, or learn to quickly hit delete. That works. > Oh I do. I was speaking as an offender rather than complaining. :)) Just nor practical, The auction list is a good example: Althrough well defined when to use it, the ePay (&co) messages still apear over here. Well, I guess there are still human beeings on the list - computers can't be that stuborn :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Mar 11 03:21:40 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <990310204114.202001a5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199903110918.EAA25565@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:41:14 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: vax, cdroms, etc Originally to: classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.edu > > RRD40's take non-standard caddies. I'm not sure about RRD42's off the top > of my head. > > They're also as slow as molasses. I'd estimate, in modern "X" speed > terms, that a RRD40 is about 0.1X (i.e. if you're lucky you get one sector > off every ten revolutions.) How impressive! New meaning for slow! Imagine floppy faster than that drive.... :-( ) Wizard > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 > Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 11 02:28:18 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Scanning old manuals In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990309182714.49c7172a@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19990309103344.0094d6f0@texas.net> Message-ID: >>I am especially puzzled by dpi. Seems everybody in the world is scanning >>at 600 or over. I am contemplating using a Hewlett Packard at 300 and >>from some test scans, including pictures, I am hard pressed to tell the >>difference between 2 and 3 hundred. Extremely high numbers coupled with >>millions of colors (where applicable) seem to me to be just a waste of >>storage space. > > I scanned a bunch of articles recently and found that the appearance >didn't degrade until I went below ~125 DPI. I scanned and posted >everything at 150 DPI, then used PhotoShop to save the images at a fixed >600 to 800 pixel width (keeping the height/width ratio). Scannning at 150 >DPI saved a bunch of disk space and time. FWIW I was scanning black text If a person is going to use a scanner very much its worth while to find a decent article or book explaining dpi and various techniques for different applications. It only seems intuitive in hindsight. Generally scanning at or a small multiple of your target (how the image is displayed) dpi is recommended. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 11 03:48:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990310091236.00a51560@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: >Upon the date 09:00 PM 3/9/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail said something like: >>On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >> >>> Can you tell me much about the AC adapter? (why is it the adapter always >>> gets lost. I didn't get one with the PowerBook 5300CS I bought last >>> Saturday either.) I wonder if a generic adapter will be OK to use? >> >>DC 6V; 600mA. > >Hi Sellam, > >Could you tell him the polarity of the connections too? I just thought of >this. It may be important for him if he has to replace the connector on a >new generic adapter or and old, used unit. Power connector polarity may not >be marked on the 5300CS as it occasionally is on computers, radios, tape >decks, stuff. Just so no one passes out, no I did not hook up 6 vdc to my beauty 5300CS (it gets a factory Apple unit). I would appreciate any "hot tips" on the connector polarity for the HX-20. Also I was serious about the generic aspect, ie should I hunt down the real thing or will Radio Shack work fine (not really the Rat Shack since I have boxes now of different adapters)? From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 11 05:35:55 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <004b01be54f0$1912cfa0$1af9adce@fpp> Message-ID: <36E7AA9B.B3606995@hotoffice.com> Paul Passmore wrote: > > hazeltine was a popular terminal, like the AMD Dumb terminal. The 1500 > series were in use about 1977. They made US and Europe powered models. Sold > by Computerland etc. The manual for the 1420 has a date of July 1979 on it. The ID tag on the terminal indicates that it was manufactured in Greenlawn NY. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Mar 11 06:08:51 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <3.0.1.16.19990310232241.3057957a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36E7B252.A361C31@bigfoot.com> I *knew* I've heard that name before and couldn't place it. Back in the mid 70's when I first went in my roomy was an ATC and I used to be able to sneak into the tower area when he worked graves at Nellis in Vegas. By the way this appears to be a terminal only, black in color and a model 1500. Haven't even put power to it yet but it's pretty in design anyway. Joe wrote: > Hazeltine is/was located in Mass if I remember correctly. They made a lot > of RADAR consoles, we used them in the USAF. I do remember that the ones we > had used electro-static deflection. You could rub the screen with a nylon > cloth and the image would smear all over the place. > > Joe > > At 01:54 PM 3/10/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > >one piece terminal looking unit that I'm curious of the sentimental, > >astetic or collector value of this brand of machine. Any input > >appreciated and maybe there will be one up for adoption soon. > > > > From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Mar 11 06:44:30 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <199903110411.UAA08340@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "Mar 10, 99 08:11:13 pm" Message-ID: <199903111244.HAA10632@crobin.home.org> > Marvin wrote: > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Anyone heard of a Hazeltine? Not sure of the model but I have a black > > > > They made quite a few different models of terminals, and one thing I have > > heard but not yet confirmed, is that one of the models had some core memory > > in it. > > If this is so, I wouldn't be surprised to find that that model is the > Hazeltine 2000, a real piece of work. > > It's kind of boxy: one rectangular box for the monitor, with a black > front and sort of goldenrod-shade-of-beige metal case, or maybe the > ones I saw were just yellowed by exposure to chain-smoking > programmers, and a matching yellowish boxy keyboard attached by way of > a thick cable. Yegods! We had one of those (probably donated by Bell Labs) back at Monmouth College, where I got my CS degrees and later worked. I still remember the boxy keyboard and the glowing buttons next to tye keyboard (things like BREAK and CLR SCREEN). > > Best of all, it's too stupid to clear the screen when powered on, and > likely as not what it greets you with first thing in the morning is a > garbled version of what it was showing you last night when you turned > it off. (There is a reset button, one of the round pushbuttons on the > right edge of the keyboard, which clears the display should you like > to start fresh.) So while I wouldn't be surprised to find that the > display memory is core, I'd be even less surprised to find that it is > some kind of acoustic delay line. Core- 2K, to be specific. I know because I scavenged the core boards out of ours when it died. Part of the reason the terminal was so big was the fact that the logic was all on a set of index card-sized PCBs in a card cage. <<>> From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 11 07:14:12 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Fwd: C.A. model Alpha-16's available Message-ID: <4.1.19990311080217.00a0a930@206.231.8.2> Hi group, The person who's message is copied below heard that I was a listmember of ClassicCmp from the Greenkeys list (it's for Teletype, other teleprinter, RTTY, and data comm interests). He asked me to post the availability of some of his equipment on the list. I don't know the fellow nor have any interest in the gear. Contact him directly. Regards, Chris PS: LAAG@... sounds familiar. Had he once before been a member of our list or is it just that I had occasionally seen some postings from him on Greenkeys and other amateur radio-related lists? CRF >From: LAAG@pacbell.net >Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 08:07:02 -0800 >Reply-To: LAAG@pacbell.net >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-PBI-NC404 (Win16; U) >To: Christian Fandt >Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] Fwd: ASR 33 manuals > >HI... I AM A COLLECTOR OF CLASSIC COMPUTERS AND HAVE SEVERAL MINI COMPUTERS >FROM THE 1970'S... I HAVE ENOUGH OF THESE THAT I HAVE SOME EXTRAS... THEY ARE MODEL ALPHA-16 >MADE BY COMPUTER AUTOMATION OF IRVINE CA. THEY HAVE 8 KBYTES OF CORE MEMORY... >COULD YOU ADD THIS TO THE CLASSIC COMPUTERS LIST FOR ME THANKS >LAAG@PACBELL.NET 909-359-0250 BOB LAAG > > From guerney at uq.net.au Thu Mar 11 07:56:52 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Printset? Message-ID: <02cc01be6bc7$0bbf4160$32f665cb@default> Excuse me for the dumb question, but .... this is one term I have not been able to figure out exactly by the context. My best guess is "circuit diagram" - am I close? For example, in one of today's posts: >so I can archive >not only my manuals, but my printsets as well. I'm blushing, but determined to find out just what exactly printsets are! Thanks Phil From william at ans.net Thu Mar 11 08:08:17 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990310232241.3057957a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Hazeltine is/was located in Mass if I remember correctly. They made a lot > of RADAR consoles, we used them in the USAF. I do remember that the ones we > had used electro-static deflection. You could rub the screen with a nylon > cloth and the image would smear all over the place. I do not think that is the same Hazeltine, but I could be wrong. They were a pretty big contractor during World War 2, involved with radio and IFF equipment. William Donzelli william@ans.net From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 11 08:15:26 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Printset? In-Reply-To: <02cc01be6bc7$0bbf4160$32f665cb@default> Message-ID: <4.1.19990311090433.009d4650@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:56 PM 3/11/99 +1000, Phil Guerney said something like: >Excuse me for the dumb question, but .... >this is one term I have not been able to figure out exactly by the context. >My best guess is "circuit diagram" - am I close? > >For example, in one of today's posts: >>so I can archive >>not only my manuals, but my printsets as well. > >I'm blushing, but determined to find out just what exactly printsets are! Not a dumb question as we *all* had dumb questions before we became 'enlightened' with the understanding of heretofore unknowns ;) You're correct that they are circuit diagrams or schematics. Relavant mechanical drawings of a unit (for example: disk drive assembly drawings, circuit board layouts, chassis box assembly, cable run layouts, etc., etc.) are also parts of a printset. They're just the nitty-gritty electrical/mechanical details not printed in the user manual/technical manual. They are of a much larger page size (about 11-1/2" x 17"). Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 11 08:48:44 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Tom PIttman's Tiny BASIC for the 1802? In-Reply-To: <372b3f4d.2163364703@insight> from "Bill Richman" at Mar 11, 99 04:00:38 am Message-ID: <199903111448.GAA07778@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 585 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/76893428/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 11 08:54:53 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990311085453.011a9a60@vpwisfirewall> At 09:43 PM 3/10/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I was just watching Beverly Hills Cop. >In the police station offices, several shots: >DEC Rainbows. The folks dressing the sets of movies scrounge almost as hard as computer collectors. If they can sweet-talk some hardware maker into lending machines for scenes, they'll do it. It's product placement. Don't forget, many of the people working on movies are effectively sub-contractors, and if they can do it for less money, they're making money. And if they can get something that will "fall off the truck" or re-sold when the sets are demolished, all the better: I remember a particularly egregious example of a tech for the movie "Twins" who was systematically begging software makers for actual product (not just boxes, but disks, he insisted) to clutter some laboratory scenes. What a scam! - John From bill at chipware.com Thu Mar 11 09:36:07 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990311085453.011a9a60@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <000001be6bd4$e268f280$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Along these lines... I think I asked this on a.f.c a long time ago, but never got an answer. Can anybody ID the HP boxes in the movie "Real Genius"? Bill Sudbrink From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Thu Mar 11 08:06:07 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: List of Macintosh stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If still avaible I would like the following items: > > Mac SE Owner's Guide > > Mac Plus Owner's Guide > > Also I have a Mac IIx sans processor so please tell me if you would be > willing to > send just the '030 processor. > > -Zach Um. Isn't it quite easy to buy a uP? What I'm trying to say is, do you think it would be possible to buy the missing ROM and have one more computer? Both the ROM and uP shouldn't be too expensive. If you end up shipping bits around, would you send what is left here as I could use them to revive/upgrade Macs here. I'm also interested in any of the demos (mostly Sys 7, ref/pres CD, Lan Literacy (!), 89 Welcome to Mac, Farallon's Greatest Hits (!?)) and any of the manuals left over if nobody really needs them. I'll give them a safe home. Max, please tell me if you are OK with shipping to London. Thanks, Nasos. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 11 09:49:55 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <199903111244.HAA10632@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: Ok... with all of this recent discussion about Hazeltine terminals, lets see if anyone has really turned one on of late (or at least has a good memory for useless trivia)... (Sam, you might write this one down for 'Nerd Trivia' at VCF III) What was unique about the screen display? (at least on the 1500 series) ...and I'm not referring to the somewhat oversized fonts... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Mar 11 09:53:25 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Mar 11, 99 07:49:55 am Message-ID: <199903111553.HAA31342@saul4.u.washington.edu> > What was unique about the screen display? (at least on the 1500 series) > > ...and I'm not referring to the somewhat oversized fonts... B^} I know the (an) answer... Was it the same thing that incensed terminal driver writers? Did it relate to Hazeltine using a very old version of ASCII? -- Derek From rickb at pail.enginet.com Thu Mar 11 09:56:40 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:57 2005 Subject: Old IC RAM Identification? In-Reply-To: <000001be6bd4$e268f280$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <003801be6bd7$c0b9df20$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Anyone out there that can identify (i.e. size & arrangement(IE: 1Kx1) and technology (i.e. Dynamic vs Static)) of some old RAM IC's? The parts are made by National, circa 1973. Part numbers are: MM4260 and MM5260 They are 16-pin plastic DIPs. These are found on an old memory board that is organized in four groups of 5 chips, with 3 4260's and 2 5260's in each group of 5. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Pages http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 11 10:10:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <199903110918.EAA25565@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Mar 11, 99 04:21:40 am Message-ID: <199903111610.IAA05012@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 568 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/1509e12b/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 11 10:11:59 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > Ok... with all of this recent discussion about Hazeltine terminals, lets > see if anyone has really turned one on of late (or at least has a good > memory for useless trivia)... > > (Sam, you might write this one down for 'Nerd Trivia' at VCF III) > > What was unique about the screen display? (at least on the 1500 series) When you turned it on, it still had the text that was currently being displayed when last turned off? :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 11 10:13:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > Ok... with all of this recent discussion about Hazeltine terminals, lets > see if anyone has really turned one on of late (or at least has a good > memory for useless trivia)... > > (Sam, you might write this one down for 'Nerd Trivia' at VCF III) P.S. Any trivia that gets publicly posted to the list will certainly not make it into the Nerd Trivia Challenge. ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 11 10:13:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990311085453.011a9a60@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Mar 11, 99 08:54:53 am Message-ID: <199903111613.IAA05243@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/dbbce2e6/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 11 12:06:05 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <199903111553.HAA31342@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > What was unique about the screen display? (at least on the 1500 series) > > > > ...and I'm not referring to the somewhat oversized fonts... B^} > > I know the (an) answer... Was it the same thing that incensed terminal > driver writers? Did it relate to Hazeltine using a very old version of > ASCII? Not what I had in mind... This is more of a visual item... (big fat clue there) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Thu Mar 11 12:02:35 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 Message-ID: <80256731.006247F9.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > I have, about six feet away from me, a brand spanking hardly used Apple > Network Server 500. Nice unit. I've managed to get AIX 4.1.4.0 on it (provided > with the system) and CDE runs well. No cc or xlc, but we have some RS/6000s > here, so I built gcc on one of them and copied the binaries over and now I > have a Perl and a decent compiler (had to steal as from the RS/6000s also). > It's a 603e PPC emulating an RS/6000 (!), 132MHz, 32MB RAM. Fast sucker. > Bookstore buys this guy to handle their database system, vendor says we don't > support it, so it goes into the server room powered off for almost two years > until the tech guy decides he doesn't want it anymore and tells me I can use > it to my heart's content if I can fix it. So I did! :-) > > Quick question: are there any AIX gurus out there? I need to upgrade this > box to 4.1.5 or some Y2K compliant version. I have a contact at IBM who might > be able to get me the upgrade, but I was wondering if anyone out there has the > patches already. 4.2 is apparently right out as I doubt IBM supports the > POWER architecture anymore, but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. Um. I don't claim to be an AIX guru, but... There are supposed to be patches to make 3.2.5.0 Year 2000 compliant, but I haven't managed to download them. However downloads for 4.anything should be readily available. There should be no surprise at Power PC chips emulating RS/6000 machines - the PPC instruction set is based on that of the POWER RISC chipset used in early RS/6000s. The last POWER RISC machines were obviously an end of line product when we were looking to buy a new server last year - all modern RS/6000 machines in our price range were based on PPC chips. (Unfortunately all those in our price range had rotten floating point benchmarks compared to the old series, so we bought a Sun instead. With luck I get the old machines. But I digress.) I have just looked at the one e-mail remaining from my conversation with an IBM rep on the subject. I quote almost in full: ********************************************* > Phillip, > > try this URL :- > > http://service.boulder.ibm.com/aix.ww/aixfixes?HBW=no > > Select APAR number and type in IX76413 in the box > > they can be downloaded from there This site behaves just like the one I tried, viz. it gives me the message: Fix packages for AIX 3.2.5.0 environments are not supported by this web service. Please use the FixDist tool or contact your authorized IBM Business Partner or IBM support center to order the fix on tape. > There is also an AIX program called fixdist that can be run on > RS/6000s to download fixes, this can be downloaded from:- > > http://service.software.ibm.com/aix.ww/downloads?HBW=no I take it fixdist requires our rs/6000 machines to know how to get at the internet, which ours don't at present. Philip. ********************************************* Hope this helps. Philip. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 11 12:07:29 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > > What was unique about the screen display? (at least on the 1500 series) > > When you turned it on, it still had the text that was currently > being displayed when last turned off? :) Not what I had in mind... Try again... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Mar 11 11:53:18 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. Message-ID: <80256731.0062EA1C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Derek Peschel wrote: > As for the DisplayWriter, the situation is pretty similar. I think you need > IBM's software to get it to work. I don't know how much reverse engineering > has been done (thus, how easy it is to run other programs). Eh? IBM Displaywriter was one of the first platforms to support CP/M86 (if not the first!) Philip. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 11 13:07:53 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <80256731.0062EA1C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) References: <80256731.0062EA1C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <19990311190753.4927.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Eh? IBM Displaywriter was one of the first platforms to support CP/M86 > (if not the first!) You must be thinking of something else. The IBM DisplayWriter was a dedicated word processor based on the 8085. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 11 13:11:44 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <199903111610.IAA05012@shell2.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 11, 1999 08:10:24 AM Message-ID: <199903111911.MAA24049@calico.litterbox.com> > I think Tim was exagerating , I've got a RRD40 and use it on my > VS3100/30. While it isn't a 1x CD-ROM really, it isn't a 0.1x either. I'll > put it this way it's installing VMS off of CD-ROM with it than off of TK-50. > On the other hand I have heard it described as a .5x CD. > > Zane Oh definately lots better than doing it off a tk50. To the point that in my previous life as a VMS sysadmin it was worth my time to load VMS install cds in the infoserver, mount them on the vaxcluster, then trot across campus and do a decnet copy over the campus network from the cluster to a standalone machine. (make sure you do /readcheck/writecheck if you do this.) Took about an hour to transfer the entire installation set, if memory serves. So flash forward to yesterday... my 3100/40 is running VMS 6.1, which I've heard has problems with seagate disks. The disk I ordered for it is (naturally) a seagate 11200N. The console software sees it just fine, but VMS won't INIT it. So to test various theories, I plugged in a 40 meg quantum out of an old Mac. Lowleveled it successfully. VMS refuses to format IT either. To make sure I don't have a hardware problem I plugged in one of my plethora of rz23s. Low leveled IT. VMS init'd it in a couple seconds, and I was able to access the drive. Does VMS 6.1 have problems with all foreign drives, or did I just luck out and find the two it won't play ball with? Or am I overlooking something? The VaxStation itself refuses to see the CDROM drive. I've had compatibility issues with this drive before - it was designed strictly for PCs - so I won't be surprised if it can't switch to 512k block mode. I'm going to try a different one once I get the hard disk problem resolved. (the drive that refuses to work at all is an NEC 24x OEM SCSI drive. It also can't do audio extraction, which is why it's no longer in my PC.) On the bright side I was able to copy the install packages for CMU-TCP onto a cdrom, so hopefully once I get the system disk transfered to a large enough drive and get the cdrom working I can bring the thing on the net with minimal difficulty. (Thanks Tim for pointing out where that's documented in the help system). -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 11 13:25:57 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Printset? Message-ID: <199903111925.AA26329@world.std.com> >Excuse me for the dumb question, but .... this is one term I have not >been able to figure out exactly by the context. My best guess is >"circuit diagram" - am I close? Pretty much... but they also include such things as the mechanical engineering prints and parts lists... >I'm blushing, but determined to find out just what exactly printsets are! There are no dumb questions... only dumb answers... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 11 13:47:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: vax, cdroms, etc In-Reply-To: <199903111911.MAA24049@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Mar 11, 99 12:11:44 pm Message-ID: <199903111947.LAA21074@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2072 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/549bfc8b/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 11 14:41:18 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Deal is off Message-ID: I apologize, but in a spark of confusion and anger, I threw the bag full of macintosh stuff into a river. So much for that... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 11 13:04:14 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990310220747.00913610@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990308212748.00981c70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >>Start by taking it apart and giving it a good cleaning. Its just a few >>screws and a little convincing, and the keyboard comes off as a unit with I >>think just one more screw inside (which I hope to remember to put back in >>one of mine next time I open it up). > >[snip] > >But does this only get the keyboard out of the computer, or does this tear >down the keyboard itself... I've tried the "keyboard in the dishwasher" The keyboard is the typical metal sheet on the back, keys on the front flat thing and it comes out with one screw once the case is open. >routine, and the "keyboard and the toothbrush" routine... and personally, >I've not had any success with them. (This is not to say that it doesn't >work... the only thing I've *ever* successfully glued together with >superglue are my fingers. The stuff must work, to sell so much - but I must >just be plain stupid regarding its use 'cause it doesn't ever work for >me... that's why I use epoxy - works every time.) Subsequently, the only >way I've ever successfully restored a keyboard (to better than new, I might >add) is by full teardown, clean, lube (judiciously...) and reassemble. I >have done this with several keyboards, and always had a winner. I have had zero success with superglue as well. Epoxy mostly loves me, so I plan to 'stick' with it. I have washed a couple keyboards with mixed success, some things got fixed, but nothing got worse. I have a couple of local sources for keyboards though that are cheap enough I had to stop fiddling with funky keyboards. >>I would not spend more effort than that, they are just too cheap. >>Reluctant machines become organ donors for the more promising. > >Define "cheap." This is probably the only //c in existance in over a 50 $5 is a typical swapmeet price for a working IIc, $20 a typical found it at the swap meet tested it and now selling it on the net price. Parts typically sell for much more than the whole system, but individually less. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 11 15:03:41 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <19990311190753.4927.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I seem to remember some advertising for a product that would let it run MS-DOS. Perhaps it would have permitted either MS-DOS or CP/M-86? On 11 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > Eh? IBM Displaywriter was one of the first platforms to support CP/M86 > > (if not the first!) > > You must be thinking of something else. The IBM DisplayWriter was a > dedicated word processor based on the 8085. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 13:37:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 10, 99 10:08:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/ed3ddd45/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 13:41:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: HX-20 the wonder of Epson In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 11, 99 01:48:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 774 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/d2f72250/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 13:54:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Printset? In-Reply-To: <02cc01be6bc7$0bbf4160$32f665cb@default> from "Phil Guerney" at Mar 11, 99 11:56:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 860 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/5c569d40/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Mar 11 10:40:16 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <19990311190753.4927.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <80256731.0062EA1C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Message-ID: <199903112142.QAA20932@smtp.interlog.com> On 11 Mar 99 at 19:07, Eric Smith wrote: > > Eh? IBM Displaywriter was one of the first platforms to support CP/M86 > > (if not the first!) > > You must be thinking of something else. The IBM DisplayWriter was a > dedicated word processor based on the 8085. > IIRC there was mention of a CP/M port to it in one of my early copies of Byte. Ran across it recently while researching Stylewriter. No, just checked, it was in a November 81 issue of "Datamation". "The IBM Displaywriter, ostensibly designed for word processing, may be a good opportunity for independent application software developers. They are enamored of the machines price/performance ratio and self diagnostics, both of which surpass IBM's Personal Computer - - not to mention Displaywriter's popularity with customers who wouldn't consider a computer otherwise. Already, Digital Research has come out with a version of it's CP/M operating syatem for the Displaywriter, and soon Advanced Sofware Products. Inc. of Delray Beach, Fla., will come out with a COBOL compiler for the machine. Similar to the virtual COBOL it offers for the IBM Series/1 mini, Advanced Sofyware's package is expected to rent for about $25 a month per machine. Meanwhile, industry observers are waiting for IBM to disclose its BASIC package for the system. " ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Mar 11 10:40:15 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990311085453.011a9a60@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: <199903112142.QAA20948@smtp.interlog.com> On 11 Mar 99 at 8:54, John Foust wrote: > At 09:43 PM 3/10/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > >I was just watching Beverly Hills Cop. > >In the police station offices, several shots: > >DEC Rainbows. > > The folks dressing the sets of movies scrounge almost as hard as > computer collectors. If they can sweet-talk some hardware maker into > lending machines for scenes, they'll do it. It's product placement. > > Don't forget, many of the people working on movies are effectively > sub-contractors, and if they can do it for less money, they're > making money. And if they can get something that will "fall off > the truck" or re-sold when the sets are demolished, all the better: > I remember a particularly egregious example of a tech for the movie > "Twins" who was systematically begging software makers for actual > product (not just boxes, but disks, he insisted) to clutter some > laboratory scenes. What a scam! > > - John > I worked as a "tech" on film crews for awhile. The set directors usually rent what they can. Anything they buy is auctioned off after the film wraps. Most directors and buyers are pretty scrupulous about it since they also work under budget constraints. I recently received $20 "rent" for an old Chet Baker album cover. The biggest problem is damage to props, and compensating the owner. Some hardnosed bargaining goes on. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 11 15:49:54 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... Message-ID: <01BE6BDF.3135A1B0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > I have had zero success with superglue as well. Epoxy mostly loves me, so I > plan to 'stick' with it. > As a former model airplane builder, I have found that the effectiveness of Superglue varies *tremendously* from brand to brand. There are also several different types. Some of them are very thin like water. Seems like those only stick to flesh. Others are more of a Gel and work just the way you'd expect. Before giving up, I'd try a couple of different ones. It sure beats waiting for epoxy to cure. If helps, I'll see if I can find a source for the "Good" stuff? Steve Robertson From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Mar 11 17:03:59 1999 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Burst Nibbler? Message-ID: <199903112303.AAA01256@beta.queen.it> >There is some sort of accelerator board built in to his 1541 drive. >Unfortunately, for it to work, it evidently needs a disk with something >called (I think) Burst Nibbler on it. >Seems to be associated with something called Dolphin DOS, possibly on the >same disk. As far as I remember (please correct me) Burst Nibbler is one of the accelerator system for the C=64<->1541 connection. I remember that there was a board with 2 EPROMS and a flat cable. This board have to replace the original C=1541 chipset.The flat cable was connecting with the C=64 (coming inside thru a cartridge in its port?) The flat cable was providing the parallel connection that was able to speed-up data transfer Inside the cartridge (or inside the C=64 new EPROM chipset) there were many utility like the NIBBLER copier, useful for hacking. Ciao! Riccardo Riccardo Romagnoli From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 11 16:16:46 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Deal is off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I apologize, but in a spark of confusion and anger, I threw the bag full >of macintosh stuff into a river. So much for that... Which river? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Mar 11 16:52:12 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... Message-ID: In a message dated 11.3.1999 17:01:29 Eastern Standard Time, steverob@hotoffice.com writes: > As a former model airplane builder, I have found that the effectiveness of > Superglue varies *tremendously* from brand to brand. There are also several > different types. Some of them are very thin like water. Seems like those > only stick to flesh. Others are more of a Gel and work just the way you'd > expect. > > Before giving up, I'd try a couple of different ones. It sure beats waiting > for epoxy to cure. If helps, I'll see if I can find a source for the "Good" > stuff? > > Steve Robertson i build airplanes as well, and what works good is the thin type glue and then a shot of that funky smelling accelerator. that makes any suprglue setup within seconds. david From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Mar 11 17:12:59 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903112309.SAA02200@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:52:12 EST Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... > > Steve Robertson > > i build airplanes as well, and what works good is the thin type glue and > then a shot of that funky smelling accelerator. that makes any suprglue > setup within seconds. > > david > Superglue gel is perfect for ill-fitting parts especially in models. The watery ones works well but important thing is just a little spread on the cracks and clean breaks on shattered plastic objects. But those funky black "woodgrain swirly" like parts and such as seen in HP deskjet, won't work very well in my experience. My trick after I heard that all superglue sets up by mere water presence in the air. Simply breathe out gently on glued parts. Wizard From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Mar 11 17:19:52 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Deal is off In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 11, 99 02:16:46 pm" Message-ID: <199903112319.SAA11009@crobin.home.org> > >I apologize, but in a spark of confusion and anger, I threw the bag full > >of macintosh stuff into a river. So much for that... > > Which river? More to the point, what would you have thrown had you *not* been confused? (Or do I want to know?) <<>> From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Mar 11 18:09:00 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: AES Data 7100 Message-ID: Hi, I just bought a strange looking machine at a Salvation Army store. It's from AES Data Inc., Montreal, Canada. Model # is 7100, which is on the plate on the front. I haven't brought it home yet because it's too damn heavy to carry. The monitor is attached to the machine via a swivel neck. Two full-height 5.25" disk drives are attached to the right hand side. The drives are part of the unit, but they're made to look separate, especially by their height which is much taller than the rest of the machine. (The drives are stacked one on top of the other.) The port on the back which is labeled "Printer", is a female connector which has pins arranged in a grid pattern. The connector looks very, very similar to the game controller connector on a Magnavox Odyssey. There's another port on the back which is a male edge connector. I didn't count the number of pins on it. The keyboard uses a wide phone-jack style connector, and it has a grounding wire which screws to the back of the machine. Does anyone know if this is just a strange looking early MS-DOS machine, or a CP/M beast, or if it's something entirely different? I can't wait to get it home and open it up to see what's inside. Providing I can figure out how to open it. :) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Mar 11 18:21:28 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: OT Humor: Heaven vs. Hell Message-ID: <199903120022.SAA12572@garcon.laidbak.com> Story revised by Paul Braun, based upon suggestions from Eric Schranz: The time had come for Bill Gates to finally leave for that great software factory in the sky. Upon arriving at the Pearly Gates (no relation, but he did try to buy them once), he was faced with a choice. He could either go to Heaven or to Hell. God said, "I'm willing to let you visit both places briefly if it will help you make a decision." " Fine, but where should I go first?" God said, "I'm going to leave that up to you." Bill said, "Ok then, let's try Hell first." So Bill went to Hell. It was a beautiful clean sandy beach with clear waters. There were thousands of beautiful women running around playing in the water, laughing and frolicking about. The sun was shining and the temperature was perfect. Bill was very pleased. "This is great!" he told God. "If this is Hell, I really want to see Heaven!" "Fine," said God and off they went. Heaven was a high place in the clouds, with angels drifting about playing harps and singing. It was nice but not as enticing as Hell. Bill thought for a quick minute and rendered his decision. "Hmm, I think I prefer Hell." he told God. "Fine", retorted God, "as you desire." So Bill Gates went to Hell. Two weeks later, God decided to check up on the late billionaire to see how he was doing in Hell. When God arrived in Hell, he found Bill shackled to a wall, screaming amongst the hot flames in a dark cave. He was being burned and tortured by demons. "How's everything going, Bill?" God asked. Bill responded, his voice full of anguish and disappointment, "This is awful! This is not what I expected. What happened to that other place with the beaches and the beautiful women playing in the water?" God said to Bill, "That was just the pre-release demo." "What do you mean?" cried Bill. "This place is nothing at all like that! I was promised fun and frolicking and a trouble-free afterlife! This is excruciatingly painful and miserable and I can't get anyone to tell me why!" And God said, "Duh! You, of all people. What part of that don't you understand? The version you saw is supposed to be bundled with HellNT, but that's been delayed, pending a very large snowstorm." Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 11 18:25:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <199903120025.AA08757@world.std.com> "Old IC RAM Identification?" (Mar 11, 7:56) References: <003801be6bd7$c0b9df20$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Message-ID: <9903120106.ZM21679@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 11, 7:56, Rick Bensene wrote: > Subject: Old IC RAM Identification? > Anyone out there that can identify (i.e. size & arrangement(IE: 1Kx1) > and technology (i.e. Dynamic vs Static)) of some old RAM IC's? > > The parts are made by National, circa 1973. Part numbers are: > > MM4260 and MM5260 I've never seen any and those numbers aren't in my copy of Towers, but the nearest are MM4250, DIL 16, 256 x 1 SRAM, 650ns, 8 addr lines, 1 CS line, PMOS, +5V, -9V, 37mA, TTL output levels. There's an MM4261 listed, it's a 1024 x 1 DRAM with two more address lines and two more CS lines in an 18-pin DIL package, and an 4262 is 2048 x 1, so I'd guess your MM4260 is similar to a 4250 (256 x1). Sorry, no pinout. There's no 5250 or 5260 listed but there are MM5261 and MM5262. They look very similar to the 42xx but slightly faster, and they use +5, +6.5, and -12V. > These are found on an old memory board that is organized in four groups > of 5 chips, with 3 4260's and 2 5260's in each group of 5. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 15:38:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Printset? In-Reply-To: <199903111925.AA26329@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 11, 99 02:25:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990311/efe9ae6e/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 11 19:27:31 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Deal is off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >Which river? A small artifical stream called the Muddy River (in Boston, MA). --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 11 19:28:22 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Deal is off In-Reply-To: <199903112319.SAA11009@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: >More to the point, what would you have thrown had you *not* been confused? >(Or do I want to know?) This is quite off-topic, but I wouldn't have thrown anything. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From bluoval at mindspring.com Thu Mar 11 19:31:19 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Printset? References: Message-ID: <36E86E67.E0A39FCA@mindspring.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > >Excuse me for the dumb question, but .... this is one term I have not > > >been able to figure out exactly by the context. My best guess is > > >"circuit diagram" - am I close? > > > > Pretty much... but they also include such things as the mechanical > > engineering prints and parts lists... > > Not always. The RK05, RK07, etc printsets include the electronic diagrams > and PCB layouts only. > > Mechanical diagrams, exploded views and parts lists tend to be in yet > another manual - the IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown). That manual lists > all the spare parts with diagrams showing how they fit together _apart_ > from parts mounted on the PCBs. PCB diagrams (and parts lists) are in the > printset. > > Confused yet? > > -tony Does anyone know where i can find copies of 'circuit diagrams', 'printsets', ect of an Altair, pref. 8800b? I'm looking for the documents needed to reproduce the boards. Robert From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Mar 11 14:31:05 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 10, 99 10:08:06 pm Message-ID: <199903120133.UAA24371@smtp.interlog.com> On 11 Mar 99 at 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > > Background props, man! They did indeed have the correct monitors. A DEC > > Rainbow has to have the correct monitor to work. But they were never > > That's news to me! (and to my Rainbows)... > > The _colour_ montitor is a standard TV-rate sync-on-green unit. Just > about any similar monitor will work. It doesn't have to be a VR241 > Where would you plug in the k-b ? > The mono monitor (VR201) is actually a standard composite unit with a > strange connector. When I got my first 'bow, I didn't get a VR201 with > it, so I made up a kludgebox to link it to a normal mono monitor. Worked > fine. Of course I got the right monitor about a week later.. > > -tony > Took me the longest time to acquire a BCC-02 cable for my 'bow,(BCC-03 for color) not being as intrepid as you Tony. Had the mono monitor VR201 so maybe that spaceage design with the little drop-down pole to angle the monitor coupled with the 15pin connector intimidated me. As well as the K-B plug on the monitor and taking power from the "bow. That was not a minor kludge. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 19:26:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <199903112309.SAA02200@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Mar 11, 99 06:12:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990312/2a31b6f0/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 11 20:20:14 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >The maximum bond strength thickness for most iso-cyano acryllic >hydro-copolymerising adhesives is something like 3 thou. That's why they >work reasonably well for assembling a broken part (i.e. when the 2 things >you're tryinmg to stick were once one piece) and hardly at all for >sticking 2 separate pieces together. Speaking of which, is there any glue at all that can make a strong structural bond between two pieces of plastic (not sure what it's called but when it breaks, the broken surface is sort of rough)? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Mar 11 20:39:39 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903120236.VAA17501@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:20:14 -0500 (EST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Max Eskin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >The maximum bond strength thickness for most iso-cyano acryllic > >hydro-copolymerising adhesives is something like 3 thou. That's why they > >work reasonably well for assembling a broken part (i.e. when the 2 things > > you're tryinmg to stick were once one piece) and hardly at all for > >sticking 2 separate pieces together. > > Speaking of which, is there any glue at all that can make a strong > structural bond between two pieces of plastic (not sure what it's called > but when it breaks, the broken surface is sort of rough)? Is that texture of the surface looks like this from HP deskjet printers or some later printer internal bodies? Wizard > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 20:00:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Nerd Movie Review In-Reply-To: <199903120133.UAA24371@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Mar 11, 99 08:31:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1912 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990312/b37a866e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 11 20:34:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 11, 99 09:20:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 532 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990312/17c535e9/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 11 21:06:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: HP85 Available References: Message-ID: <36E884A2.C896C2EC@rain.org> Hi Joe, Sorry for the long delay in getting back, but things have been hectic. Someone spoke up for the HP85 within minutes of my posting it to the list, followed by another person a few hours later so I would assume at this point it will not be available. Thanks for checking! Marvin Joel Fedorko wrote: > > Hi Marvin, > > Is it still available? > > Thanks. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] > Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:17 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: HP85 Available > > This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet > Mail Service. To view the original message content, open the attached > message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to > disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original > character set. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 11 23:51:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: OT: Need Frenchy to translate message for me Message-ID: Is there a French speaking person in the house (Francois)? Someone from a French-speaking country sent me an undecipherable message that I need translated. I tried babelfish but it made the message make even less sense than what I remember from my high school French class. Please reply privately. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Mar 11 23:55:12 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... Message-ID: In a message dated 99-03-11 21:44:18 EST, you write: > My normal method for things like this : > > Polythene and PTFE : not a hope. Almost nothing will stick them... > > Otherwise, I try a spot of plastic weld. If it softens the surface, then > it'll probably sitck the parts together. Otherwise, if it's a rigid > plastic, I try epoxy. > > What is the item you're trying to stick? > what's the best for ABS plastic? I've found nothing that can glue it back together with any strength, especially if it wasnt really a clean break or the plastic got a bit deformed at the breaking point. david From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 12 00:24:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <199903112309.SAA02200@mail.cgocable.net> References: Message-ID: >Superglue gel is perfect for ill-fitting parts especially in models. >The watery ones works well but important thing is just a little >spread on the cracks and clean breaks on shattered plastic I recommend the brand called Zap-A-Gap. I'm also into Miniature Wargamming, and the best thing I've found for fitting the Metal or Platic figures together is Zap-A-Gap. It's strong enough that it will keep big heavy metal pieces together. Clean in a mild soapy solution and rinse with clean water for the best results. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Mar 12 00:24:37 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 99-03-11 21:44:18 EST, you write: > > > My normal method for things like this : > > > > Polythene and PTFE : not a hope. Almost nothing will stick them... [sssnipp] > > what's the best for ABS plastic? I've found nothing that can glue it back > together with any strength, especially if it wasnt really a clean break or the > plastic got a bit deformed at the breaking point. > ABS can be welded... try using one of the small forced-air heat guns designed for heat-shrink, or a metal tube from a larger heat gun will work. It has to be *hot*, 350 - 500 deg F, and it helps if you have a small strip of the same material to use as a 'welding rod', ie. to fill in the joint as you go. I have done a lot of ABS and Delrin welding... commercial welding outfits are made (air torches) for the purpose. In some locales they can be rented. Also... many of the larger plastics companies will have them... and can often do the job for cheap bucks. Cheerz John From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Mar 12 01:01:59 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: References: <199903112309.SAA02200@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Mar 11, 99 06:12:59 pm Message-ID: <199903120658.BAA19104@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:26:04 +0000 (GMT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... > I don't know if you can get it in the States, but over here there's an > 'adhesive' called 'Plastic Weld'. It appears to be mostly dichloromethane, > and it works by disolving the plastic and letting it weld together. Mine is by "Model Builders Supply, Aurora, Ontario Canada" named plastic solvent cement, contains Methylene Chloride. So exporate that by then I got the applicator to the break it's already half dead and nearly gone. Got it from specialized hobby store in downtown. > Seems to work on Polystyrene and ABS at least, and maybe others. > > > > > My trick after I heard that all superglue sets up by mere water > > presence in the air. Simply breathe out gently on glued parts. > > Yes... Oh, to add, breathe out gently with mouth wide, size of opening changes the humidy level. > The maximum bond strength thickness for most iso-cyano acryllic > hydro-copolymerising adhesives is something like 3 thou. That's why they > work reasonably well for assembling a broken part (i.e. when the 2 things > you're tryinmg to stick were once one piece) and hardly at all for > sticking 2 separate pieces together. .003? That's mighty thin to slice! > > -tony > Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Mar 12 01:04:34 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903120700.CAA20313@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:24:37 -0800 (PST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: John Lawson To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... > > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 99-03-11 21:44:18 EST, you write: > > > > > My normal method for things like this : > > > > > > Polythene and PTFE : not a hope. Almost nothing will stick them... > > [sssnipp] > > Excellent advices on welding plastics by John... I have known that could not piece together nylon parts without any appreciately strength. Any ideas? Wizard > > John > From douga at email.com Fri Mar 12 01:11:53 1999 From: douga at email.com (Doug Auerbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Still seeking Televideo TS-803 Message-ID: <01be6c57$9b714980$646381ce@wport.wport.com> Hey y'all, I'm still looking for a working Televideo TS-803 CP/M machine. If you have one you're willing to part with, or know someone who is, I'd appreciate a note. This was my first home computer, so it has nostalgia value for me. I'm not a collector, just a former owner and enthusiast. If you have a Televideo but aren't sure which model it is, check out this link for a photograph of the TS-1603 (on the left), which is physically identical to the TS-803: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/vcf-10.jpg Doug (Photo credit belongs to Jim's Computer Garage (http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcf.html) From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 12 02:24:56 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... References: Message-ID: <36E8CF58.B4F68565@rain.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > Polythene and PTFE : not a hope. Almost nothing will stick them... Not true. I don't recall the method for gluing PTFE, but hot air welding will work with Polyethelyne (sp). I should say that hot air won't work as it will oxidize the plastic, but using an inert gas in the process works well. Air can be used though to weld polypro although IIRC a better joint is made if an inert gas is used rather than air. With teflon circuit boards, I used to use Tetraetch to etch the surface and give it enough bite so that the copper in the plated-thru-holes would have reasonable adhesion. I think a similar process was used for bonding PTFE together but I don't recall anything more about the process. > what's the best for ABS plastic? I've found nothing that can glue it back > together with any strength, especially if it wasnt really a clean break or the > plastic got a bit deformed at the breaking point. I have heard that hot air welding also works with ABS although I have not done any welding on ABS. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 12 02:37:18 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:58 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: SUPRDAVE@aol.com "Re: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot..." (Mar 12, 0:55) References: Message-ID: <9903120837.ZM21988@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 12, 0:55, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > what's the best for ABS plastic? I've found nothing that can glue it back > together with any strength, especially if it wasnt really a clean break or the > plastic got a bit deformed at the breaking point. You can get ABS cement (like PVC pipe cement) from some plumber's suppliers or you could try asking at any small plastics fabricator. Methyl Ethyl Ketone often works if the parts are a good fit; ABS cement is just ABS dissolved in a similar solvent. Commercially, MEK is also used for PVC, and most things intended for rigid PVC work well on ABS. If the parts aren't a good fit because they've been deformed, trim them carefully with a sharp scalpel or craft knife. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Mar 12 03:24:44 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: vax, cdrom, disks, etc Message-ID: <199903120924.CAA27513@calico.litterbox.com> A followup. I posted my VMS/vax question to comp.os.vms (imagine that) and am told there is a patch to vms 6.1 that makes it more tolerant of non dec drives by making it set the two bytes in the drive configuration automatically. it's at ftp://service.digital.com it's called vaxscsi03_61.zip Haven't applied it yet. I'll keep you posted. Now to find a cdrom that the vaxstation likes. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From tim at thereviewguide.com Fri Mar 12 04:55:10 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: WAY OT: Re: Interesting to note about Altairs... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990309102949.0093f100@texas.net> Message-ID: <199903121055.CAA27254@geocities.com> > You mean, oh, something perhaps like...LINUX!? Exactly. Linux is perfect, and, best of all, it's not what a company THINKS users want, or what a company WANTS users to THINK they want, but actually what the USERS want, as THEY coded it. Don't like something in Linux? Change it. Really. Don't know how to code? Find someone with a similiar view that does. Of course, this won't always be true, especially as Linux moves more and more to THE SERVER OS, but it's still a lot more true than with anything else out there. > POPPY-COCK! You must forget what you knew in 1996 and move forward in > time. Much has changed since then. Exactly. Linux has become LOT easier to use. Most of the things that corporate types say make Linux bad for the desktop--basically that there is no real look for it, and so much can be changed, can be solved by simply making policies on what software (IE KDE, but not GNOME, etc.) can be run. I think that a good idea, however, would be to make a distro 'standard' where you could tell that software would run. (IE glibc based, contains these utilities, etc.) Of course, you don't want all to be compaitble, but perhaps versions could be made to be compatible. And if you have your boxes go into X at start up, with KDE 1.1, Linux looks like MacOS. Tim > Sellam ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Mar 12 06:39:57 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: AES Data 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990312073957.0079fb60@mail.wincom.net> At 07:09 PM 3/11/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, > >I just bought a strange looking machine at a Salvation Army store. It's >from AES Data Inc., Montreal, Canada. Model # is 7100, which is on the >plate on the front. I haven't brought it home yet because it's too damn >heavy to carry. > >The monitor is attached to the machine via a swivel neck. Two >full-height 5.25" disk drives are attached to the right hand side. The >drives are part of the unit, but they're made to look separate, especially >by their height which is much taller than the rest of the machine. (The >drives are stacked one on top of the other.) > >The port on the back which is labeled "Printer", is a female connector >which has pins arranged in a grid pattern. The connector looks very, very >similar to the game controller connector on a Magnavox Odyssey. > >There's another port on the back which is a male edge connector. I didn't >count the number of pins on it. > >The keyboard uses a wide phone-jack style connector, and it has a >grounding wire which screws to the back of the machine. > >Does anyone know if this is just a strange looking early MS-DOS machine, >or a CP/M beast, or if it's something entirely different? > >I can't wait to get it home and open it up to see what's inside. >Providing I can figure out how to open it. :) > >-- >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > Sounds as if you have found an ICON, aka "The Bionic Beaver", the computer designed by the Ontario government to take over the educational computer market. Unfortunately it came out at the same time as the IBM PC. If you find another one please let me know, as I have been looking in Windsor without success. (The schools have all sent them to the dump.) Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Mar 12 07:11:50 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. Message-ID: <80256732.004927F8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Eh? IBM Displaywriter was one of the first platforms to support CP/M86 >> (if not the first!) > > You must be thinking of something else. The IBM DisplayWriter was a > dedicated word processor based on the 8085. I don't think so. Are you sure you're not thinking of the Datamaster (AKA System/23)? My Datamaster (I have the data processing version, not the word processing version, alas) certainly has an 8085 at its heart, but my Displaywriter equally certainly has an 8088. It was indeed designed as a dedicated word processor, but since it loaded system software from disk, it wasn't hard to set it to other tasks. Philip. From max82 at surfree.com Fri Mar 12 21:38:27 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... References: Message-ID: <36E9DDB3.68A9F15B@surfree.com> > What is the item you're trying to stick? Nothing right now, but I was just wondering....I once had a joystick where the stick extended inside the body and slid in to perpendicular arcs that attached to potentiometers. The arcs were spring loaded, and the stick couldn't take the stress. The point simply broke off. I stuck an old drill bit through it as a skeleton, which worked for a while until the drill bit broke. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Mar 12 10:21:34 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: vax, cdrom, disks, etc In-Reply-To: <199903120924.CAA27513@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990312082134.0095a590@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 02:24 12-03-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Haven't applied it yet. I'll keep you posted. Now to find a cdrom that >the vaxstation likes. :) I've had good luck with Toshiba XM34xx series units. The criteria, as I recall (someone check me on this, please?) is that the CD-ROM drive selected must be able to do 1024 byte blocks when reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 12 10:47:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: vax, cdrom, disks, etc In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990312082134.0095a590@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Mar 12, 99 08:21:34 am Message-ID: <199903121647.IAA24024@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990312/450f5ea0/attachment.ksh From mikeparadiso at worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 12 11:33:38 1999 From: mikeparadiso at worldnet.att.net (MICHAEL PARADISO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Needed: a Video Lab and Video Framer board Message-ID: <002701be6cae$777331e0$c58d480c@p133> I am looking for an SGI Video Lab board and/or a Video Framer board from the older Power Series systems. If you have one or know someone who might have one, please send me an email mikeparadiso@worldnet.att.net Thanks! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 12 14:47:11 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: 18 Classic Computers Delivered, a beaut day. In-Reply-To: <80256732.004927F8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) References: <80256732.004927F8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <19990312204711.12542.qmail@brouhaha.com> >>> Eh? IBM Displaywriter was one of the first platforms to support CP/M86 >>> (if not the first!) >> >> You must be thinking of something else. The IBM DisplayWriter was a >> dedicated word processor based on the 8085. > > I don't think so. Are you sure you're not thinking of the Datamaster (AKA > System/23)? My Datamaster (I have the data processing version, not the word > processing version, alas) certainly has an 8085 at its heart, but my > Displaywriter equally certainly has an 8088. It was indeed designed as a > dedicated word processor, but since it loaded system software from disk, it > wasn't hard to set it to other tasks. I don't have one, but the information I've got from periodicals claims that it was introduced in 1980 and contained an 8085. When the IBM PC was introduced in 1981, it was claimed that it was IBM's first product to use an Intel 16-bit microprocessor (albeit with an 8-bit bus). But if you actually have one that you've verified contains an 8088, then obviously my information was wrong. :-) From wanderer at bos.nl Fri Mar 12 17:39:09 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Latest finds - again References: <199903120924.CAA27513@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <36E9A59D.57B4@bos.nl> Well, got some quite intresting DEC stuff this time from a fellow list reader, and the material includes : a VT-101 a Correspondent with user manuals a RX01 dual floppy drive unit a RX02 dual floppy drive unit a RX02 compatible floppy unit a 11/34 with the RX02 compatible interface card a 11/03 some RK05, RL01 and RL02 packs 3 remote controlled power switches a couple of fieldservice diagrams a Qbus graphics subsystem papertape diagnostics (borowed, just for making a copy), The best part I got is the processor box of an 11/35 (10.5 " box version) with an OEM style operator console. Unfortunately, It does not contain the cpu or memory, it has only the power supply and the cpu backplane. Soooo, my next question is, who has a (spare) set of 11/35 or 11/40 processor cards for me (trade/sale/barter, you name it!)? Also, can this processor use MOS memory or only core memory, and which type of MS11 is then to be used? Better yet, a backplane with some memory cards would be even better to obtain! All input is wellcome. Edward -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From pechter at pechter.ddns.org Fri Mar 12 18:52:10 1999 From: pechter at pechter.ddns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Latest finds - again In-Reply-To: <36E9A59D.57B4@bos.nl> from wanderer at "Mar 12, 1999 10:39: 9 pm" Message-ID: <199903130052.TAA01507@pechter.ddns.org> > The best part I got is the processor box of an 11/35 (10.5 " box > version) with an OEM style operator console. > Unfortunately, It does not contain the cpu or memory, it has only the > power supply and the cpu backplane. > Hmm... the machine could use both MOS or Core memory. Any Unibus memory should work (11/04, 11/34 stuff like MS-11 Unibus stuff) should be fine. The MS11 stuff came in various popluated amounts (8 -i think,16, 32, 64k sizes). There were various core stack sets as well. The main thing is the MOS and core sometimes had different power requirements (I think the core used +15 and the MOS +/- 12)... so you may need a different power supply and expansion backplane. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 12 17:53:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Help! Apple //c keyboard & whatnot... In-Reply-To: <36E9DDB3.68A9F15B@surfree.com> from "Max Eskin" at Mar 12, 99 10:38:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1339 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990312/753f546f/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Mar 12 22:01:24 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Hi! I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM (compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From nfields at ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 12 19:50:03 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36E9C44B.70316BBC@ix.netcom.com> I can say a bit on altairs (others will fill in more I'm sure ). Altairs were programmed with binary coding. So you set each switch up/down for the binary, then toggled an accept switch, then went on to the next "line" of your program. Extremely slow to put in a program. Thats why quickly, people built addons that would allow for disk drives/tape drives/paper drives. As for keyboards, I have heard of one, not positive it actually ever existed (someone might know). Monitors weren't largely used. Most of the time a teletype terminal system would be used (where instead of a screen, your output is typed on a large roll of paper). I know that they did add the ability to hook to a monitor/t.v. later. A good book on that era, is Stan Veits "History of the personal computer". One of the reasons I like it, is Stan was one of the first computer shop owners in New York city, at the time Altairs were coming out. He describes many of the different machines of the time in this book, and his experiences with them (fun reading for someone interested in vintage computers). If you want a copy, let me know and I'll e-mail you the bookstore's website. As for more information, this list is good for hearing information, and also, if you do a websearch on vintage computers, you'll find websites devoted to the older computers. And last, remember, that you did work on some older computers :) The IIc, and the Tandy are computers, that most people today don't even realize ever existed :) Noel Jason Willgruber wrote: > Hi! > > I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM > (compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 > model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I > haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). > > What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any > of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one > of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and > indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 12 19:53:18 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Hi! > >I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM >(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 >model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I >haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). > >What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any >of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one >of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and >indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? Wow, do you want the one or two paragraph history of computing as we know it? Maybe Moore's law explains it best, every couple of years computers get twice as fast, for half the money and size. Now Start with a typical present day Pentibum II 400 Mhz 128 MB ram 10 GB hard drive that sells for $2000 and go back in time 20 years (about 10 of Moore's cycles). Computers were 1000 times slower, bigger, and more expensive. That was a different world, and you had to treat such valuable resources differently. People, and really only a small favored few, had to share the computers, and time 24 hours a day was highly prized. Around 1970 a computer about as powerfull as a present day $100 calculator cost about $10 million and required a large secure and temperature controlled room. That was the mainstream of mainframe computers. The computer was the size of a kids play house, and all around it in the large room were "peripherals" designed to keep the main cpu busy working all the time. Away from the main IBM oriented data processing shops, dozens of smaller companies fought for the minicomputer market. Smaller, and less powerfull in absolute terms, these units were targeted at the scientific and industrial users who needed the computational or control that only computers allowed. Minicomputers weren't that different from mainframes, just scaled down in some senses, and optimized in others. Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC was one of these minicomputer companies, and its PDP line was hugely popular in many areas. Industry, banking, telephone, and most important universities. The DEC PDP series became the platform that many computer scientists experiemented on, and many students still didn't get to use. As Moores law improved the lot, the VAX line came out, and people logged on with gusto forever after. Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the hardware and software used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be corrected. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Mar 12 20:00:20 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <36E9C44B.70316BBC@ix.netcom.com> from Noel Fields at "Mar 12, 1999 05:50:03 pm" Message-ID: <199903130200.UAA17291@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > A good book on that era, is Stan Veits "History of the personal computer". One > of the reasons I like it, is Stan was one of the first computer shop owners in > New York city, at the time Altairs were coming out. He describes many of the > different machines of the time in this book, and his experiences with them (fun > reading for someone interested in vintage computers). If you want a copy, let > me know and I'll e-mail you the bookstore's website. > They've been trying to sell those books for $3 each on ebay. They had about a thousand in think ;) And yes, i bought a copy. -Lawrence LeMay PS: With Doug gone, i wonder who will complain that I gave away something they planned to bid on at ebay... From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Mar 12 20:10:50 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: "The Home Computer Wars" Message-ID: <199903130210.SAA13162@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990312/80d79957/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 12 20:08:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM > (compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 > model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I > haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). The //c is hardly pre-80s. It was born almost the same year you were! > What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any > of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one > of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and > indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? You could add a keyboard and monitor to it. Or a dumb terminal over a serial port. Older computers like the PDPs and Vaxen normally had dumb terminals as their standard form of input/output. The switches are there for actually programming the machines in binary or octal. You flip the switches in the binary pattern of ones and zeroes, and then uie another switch to "deposit" the value on the switches into a memory address. The LEDs output a binary pattern. You must know how to read binary (and convert it to decimal perhaps, or something more symbolic) to understand what the meaning is. The numbers displayed on the LEDs in binary are the machine's actual code. The ones and zeroes make up numbers that represent operations in the processor, or values contained inside accumulators and registers. You need to start looking for older computer texts from the 60s and 70s to better understand what computers were like before you came along. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 12 20:17:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the hardware and software >used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping >switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one >instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be >corrected. Depends on the computer system also. On the Honeywell DPS-8 we had all kinds of Blinken Lights and Flippen Switches, but they were for setting the configuration of the system. Using them we could tell it how many processors, what memory banks, and drives to talk to, etc. Let's not forget the Rotary number switches, I've operated at least 3 different computers that had them. Although the computer controlling the engineering plant of a Oliver Hazzard Perry Class Frigate wouldn't be recognized by most as a computer. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From joe at barrera.org Fri Mar 12 20:11:17 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? References: <199903130200.UAA17291@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <028f01be6cf7$34fd25c0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> > PS: With Doug gone, i wonder who will complain that I gave away something > they planned to bid on at ebay... He has his spies. You'll pay... not today, not tomorrow, but someday... :-) From joe at barrera.org Fri Mar 12 20:13:24 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <029001be6cf7$369c08b0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> Jason, I glanced at your web page -- do you live in Pittsburgh? Try to befriend someone at CMU who will let you into the SCS machine room. There used to be a glorious collection of old hardware on the third floor... - Joe "The thing's hollow -- it goes on forever -- and, oh my God, it's full of stars!" From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Mar 12 21:09:51 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <19990312.210952.281.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:01:24 -0800 "Jason Willgruber" writes: >Hi! > >I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only >non-IBM (compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a >TRS-80 model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. Don't forget the Mac Portable you got this past winter (hint, hint). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 12 21:22:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Mar 12, 99 08:01:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990313/bf4b9e77/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 12 22:33:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think the best way to answer your question Jason instead of everyone telling their own little story of what computers were like back in the old days is for you to go out and start picking up old computer texts at used bookstores and read up on them. You will learn a lot, and you will be fascinated by what you learn. Also, start planning to come to the Vintage Computer Festival this year. You will absorb all sorts of wonderful information from the speakers and fellow attendees, and you'll be wowed by the exhibits. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 12 23:25:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <199903130525.AA21043@world.std.com> 1979>: A very raw machine with a toggle switch and led front pannel. Its based on the 8080 cpu. Unlike PCs there was no rom, no bios (it was being invented around the same time). Boards used a BUS called S100 for the 100 pin connector and a typical board would be a serial port, 8k ram, or maybe a 16line by 64 character video card. No monitor and keyboard like PCs, if you had the bucks a TTY of the mechanical kind (ASR33) and it also allowed paper tape. PDP-8 <~1965--> 1991>: PDP8 was a 12bit archetecture and in the real early days was like the altair with lights, switches and core memory that didn't forget with the power off. By the late 80s the PDP-8 was commonly know as DECMATEII and III and used a CMOS version of the PDP-8 CPU. One of the longest running of the old iron. OSes were created on this machine and would live on others. Best known are RTS-8, OS/8, EDUSYSTEM, MUMPS, COS. used a lot for science(labs), data aquisition and control systems. PDP-11 <~1970--> CURRENT> A 16 bit CPU useing complex instruction types and is the longest running line of the oldies. It started as all TTL small scale integration and the last 15 years of them are chips (J11 is the longest running of the chips). Considered one of the most potent of the 16bit cpus with many rivals. Boxes ranged from the tiny to real monsters. peak perfomance was about 1-2MIPS. Still considered by many to be a great programmers machine. It ran RT-11, DOS, MUMPS, RSTS, RSX, UNIX and many more OSs. Many of the single board versions (over 50,000 at Bridgeport Machine tools alone) were built into NC tools. VAX <~1978--current>: DEC forsaw that 16bits was not enough for high performance computing and created the 32bit VAX-11/780. the VAX-11 was droped for vax but it's part of its roots. It's a very CISC machine, 32bits and is know for 24x365 kinds of operations, they were workhorses and carried the superminicomputer banner for many years. Later versions were of the smaller form with the MicroVAX being the first chip level implmentation. They set a standard for perfomance that is unique (VUP). the common OS is VMS, ULTRIX (DEC BSDversion of unix). VAX was not a front pannel machine and many of the larger ones had a PDP-11 (in the form of an 11/03 or Pro350/380) as the "front end". Their sizes ran from room fillers to the small VS2000 or later 3100 workstation pizza boxes. systems like the nearly 10year old VS3100 are still considered good mailservers and small web servers and do not crash when loaded to the max+1. Hope that helps. Allison From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Mar 12 19:25:47 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199903130627.BAA25148@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Mar 99 at 17:53, Mike Ford wrote: > >Hi! > > > >I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM > >(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 > >model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I > >haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). > > > >What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any > >of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one > >of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and > >indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? > > Wow, do you want the one or two paragraph history of computing as we know it? > > Maybe Moore's law explains it best, every couple of years computers get > twice as fast, for half the money and size. Now Start with a typical > present day Pentibum II 400 Mhz 128 MB ram 10 GB hard drive that sells for > $2000 and go back in time 20 years (about 10 of Moore's cycles). Computers > were 1000 times slower, bigger, and more expensive. That was a different > world, and you had to treat such valuable resources differently. People, > and really only a small favored few, had to share the computers, and time > 24 hours a day was highly prized. > > Around 1970 a computer about as powerfull as a present day $100 calculator > cost about $10 million and required a large secure and temperature > controlled room. That was the mainstream of mainframe computers. The > computer was the size of a kids play house, and all around it in the large > room were "peripherals" designed to keep the main cpu busy working all the > time. > > Away from the main IBM oriented data processing shops, dozens of smaller > companies fought for the minicomputer market. Smaller, and less powerfull > in absolute terms, these units were targeted at the scientific and > industrial users who needed the computational or control that only > computers allowed. Minicomputers weren't that different from mainframes, > just scaled down in some senses, and optimized in others. > > Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC was one of these minicomputer companies, > and its PDP line was hugely popular in many areas. Industry, banking, > telephone, and most important universities. The DEC PDP series became the > platform that many computer scientists experiemented on, and many students > still didn't get to use. As Moores law improved the lot, the VAX line came > out, and people logged on with gusto forever after. > > Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the hardware and software > used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping > switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one > instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be > corrected. > Wow, great thread. Thanks Jason. I tend to think of the evolution of computers in physical relation to myself. In an incarnation in the mid-fifties, I worked for a large government department as a "junior IBM operator" I worked sorting IBM cards, reproducing cards that were "bent, mutillated, and spindalled", and wired peg-boards to interpret the data contained on those cards, which were "punched" by a room-full of typist "punch-card operators". Even tho this was a large gov. apparatus, the machines could only be "leased" not bought from IBM and even some programs were rented. In a temperature-controlled room filled with machines spinning large metal tape-reels were the "high priests" of this genre. I never entered that room. It had windows where you could see the esoteric operatives at work. In the 70's I worked for a large railway keeping track of boxcars entering and leaving the Yard. I would write up a report each day and submit it to the computer room. Again, a temperature and environment controlled room, but the "priests" were fellow workers who, tho aloof, I could talk to. And I could even enter the "temple" Fast forward to the early eighties in a tech school. Each student had a terminal ID to access the main computers but they were at another location which I never saw. The school could even have been renting service space from another provider. But in the course I actually used a real computer more or less, an ET3400, to explore the godlike ways. We also had a trainer in which you could enter and step thru each program using switches with LED indicators. In a tech-course a few years later I was introduced to floppydisks using an Osbourne. We smoked and drank cokes using them. To me the great flowering of the 8-bits was the demystifying of computer arts. Unfortunately, I feel OS2, Win9x, and NT are removing us from that control ,as against the "high Priests" of VAX. It's amusing to remember that my professors looked blank when I asked them about Unix in 83 after reading about it in "Electronics" magazine. I explained it as simply a method of disk storage organisation and access. Altho the computer world has changed mightily I think the "deification" remains with the minis and mainframes and Unix is it's theology. I appreciate Linux precisely because it has an empowering feel to it. That is the glory of the personal computer. I have a PDP-8 maintenance manual and an IBM VS360/370 programmers manual and at some point I will study them. But neither can give me the joy of an old "populist" 8-bit programming manual, with a code-bloatless program to automate your toaster on a 64k ram machine. That was elegance. Flame away. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From hhacker at home.com Sat Mar 13 03:11:59 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <03b801be6d31$8d4cd380$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Larry: Given your start in computing in the mid-fifties, you must now be in your mid-sixties. I was one who started in the early 70's (as early as my 12-th year) and am now 41. The machine was an IBM 370/155 with 1MB of main memory, and the language was APL (APL*PLUS from Scientific Time Sharing). Well, it is true that the machines of the 50's were the so called Unit Record devices and the low quality mainframes of the day, like the 7090, the 1620 (if I get the numbering correct) and the 1401 (all of IBM fame). I had the privilege of working with such Unit Record devices, and even to have programmed a few of the old style plug boards. I am greatful that those days are over! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX? On 12 Mar 99 at 17:53, Mike Ford wrote: > >Hi! > > > >I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM > >(compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 > >model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I > >haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). > > > >What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any > >of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one > >of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and > >indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? > > Wow, do you want the one or two paragraph history of computing as we know it? > > Maybe Moore's law explains it best, every couple of years computers get > twice as fast, for half the money and size. Now Start with a typical > present day Pentibum II 400 Mhz 128 MB ram 10 GB hard drive that sells for > $2000 and go back in time 20 years (about 10 of Moore's cycles). Computers > were 1000 times slower, bigger, and more expensive. That was a different > world, and you had to treat such valuable resources differently. People, > and really only a small favored few, had to share the computers, and time > 24 hours a day was highly prized. > > Around 1970 a computer about as powerfull as a present day $100 calculator > cost about $10 million and required a large secure and temperature > controlled room. That was the mainstream of mainframe computers. The > computer was the size of a kids play house, and all around it in the large > room were "peripherals" designed to keep the main cpu busy working all the > time. > > Away from the main IBM oriented data processing shops, dozens of smaller > companies fought for the minicomputer market. Smaller, and less powerfull > in absolute terms, these units were targeted at the scientific and > industrial users who needed the computational or control that only > computers allowed. Minicomputers weren't that different from mainframes, > just scaled down in some senses, and optimized in others. > > Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC was one of these minicomputer companies, > and its PDP line was hugely popular in many areas. Industry, banking, > telephone, and most important universities. The DEC PDP series became the > platform that many computer scientists experiemented on, and many students > still didn't get to use. As Moores law improved the lot, the VAX line came > out, and people logged on with gusto forever after. > > Oh, those switches and lights are mostly because the hardware and software > used to screw up fairly often, and by looking at the lights, and flipping > switches the operation of the computer could be single stepped (one > instruction per button push) and errors identified so they could be > corrected. > Wow, great thread. Thanks Jason. I tend to think of the evolution of computers in physical relation to myself. In an incarnation in the mid-fifties, I worked for a large government department as a "junior IBM operator" I worked sorting IBM cards, reproducing cards that were "bent, mutillated, and spindalled", and wired peg-boards to interpret the data contained on those cards, which were "punched" by a room-full of typist "punch-card operators". Even tho this was a large gov. apparatus, the machines could only be "leased" not bought from IBM and even some programs were rented. In a temperature-controlled room filled with machines spinning large metal tape-reels were the "high priests" of this genre. I never entered that room. It had windows where you could see the esoteric operatives at work. In the 70's I worked for a large railway keeping track of boxcars entering and leaving the Yard. I would write up a report each day and submit it to the computer room. Again, a temperature and environment controlled room, but the "priests" were fellow workers who, tho aloof, I could talk to. And I could even enter the "temple" Fast forward to the early eighties in a tech school. Each student had a terminal ID to access the main computers but they were at another location which I never saw. The school could even have been renting service space from another provider. But in the course I actually used a real computer more or less, an ET3400, to explore the godlike ways. We also had a trainer in which you could enter and step thru each program using switches with LED indicators. In a tech-course a few years later I was introduced to floppydisks using an Osbourne. We smoked and drank cokes using them. To me the great flowering of the 8-bits was the demystifying of computer arts. Unfortunately, I feel OS2, Win9x, and NT are removing us from that control ,as against the "high Priests" of VAX. It's amusing to remember that my professors looked blank when I asked them about Unix in 83 after reading about it in "Electronics" magazine. I explained it as simply a method of disk storage organisation and access. Altho the computer world has changed mightily I think the "deification" remains with the minis and mainframes and Unix is it's theology. I appreciate Linux precisely because it has an empowering feel to it. That is the glory of the personal computer. I have a PDP-8 maintenance manual and an IBM VS360/370 programmers manual and at some point I will study them. But neither can give me the joy of an old "populist" 8-bit programming manual, with a code-bloatless program to automate your toaster on a 64k ram machine. That was elegance. Flame away. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Mar 13 05:15:36 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: AES 7100 Message-ID: Hi again, I conscripted my father to come and help me drag the AES 7100 home today. It doesn't work. The display powers up but nothing is displayed. The drives never turn but their lights shine at the instant the power switch is flipped. I suspect its not working has something to do with several empty sockets on the motherboard, but I can't be sure. Even with it not working, it's an interesting machine. It's a little over 26.5-inches wide, and over 16-inches deep if you include the handles on the back for pulling out the motherboard. The main box is about 4.25-inches high, with a 10.5" green phosphor monitor sitting on top of it, connected with a swivel neck. The top of the monitor sits about 16" above the surface of the table. The disk drive portion of the box is about 10.5" high and 9.25" wide, and is visually disconnected from the rest of the box in the same way that an Apple III keyboard is visually disconnected from the rest of the III... still built on the same metal frame underneath. The motherboard pulls out on a tray from the back of the machine, with only two screws holding it in. There are numerous holes for ports of various sizes, but most of them have metal plates screwed over them and nothing behind them. Unscrewing the plates usually reveals a picture of a telephone handset beside the hole. There are plenty of post holes in the motherboard in locations that match the holes in the back of the case, so there must have been plenty of options. My own machine only has one small daughtercard sitting on posts, with a 50-pin male edge connector accessible from a hole with a drawing of a printer beside it. There is also a 12-pin female port with a drawing of a printer beside it, with the pins arranged in a 3x4 grid. On the motherboard, there is a Mostek Z80A, probably 4MHz. There are three Z80A PIO chips, and two Z80A CTC chips, and several other large multi-legged critters. There are three 8-chip banks of 4164 DRAMs, with a fourth row left empty. That's quite a bit of memory for a Z80! There is a 24-pin EPROM, with an empty 24-pin socket beside it. There is a set of two other 24-pin chips which might be ROMs. There are two other empty sockets, one with 18 pins and the other with 16 pins. There is a 15.something MHz crytal, and a 24.0000MHz crystal. There is oodles of TTL. Chips range in dates from '79 to '82. The keyboard connector inside the machine is cracked and broken and won't stay in place. The keyboard is larger than it has to be, with lots of photogenic whitespace around the key areas. The area that would normally be a numeric keypad on a normal keyboard has pictograms of unknown function. The key which must be the caps lock lights up when it is hit, but the light doesn't turn off if you hit it again. It only turns off when the keys which must be shift keys are hit. The disk drives are full-height, single-sided. It has a plate with "7100" on the front, but a small plate on the back says "AES Model 203". The monitor has no external controls, but there is what appears to be a trapdoor on the back of the monitor which is screwed shut. Perhaps I should try messing with that before I decide that the machine is definitely dead. There is another machine just like it at the same store, even grimier than this one was. But considering the hassle of hauling and storing this thing, I don't think I'll have the energy to go back for it. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Mar 13 05:45:08 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey COOL! The _lights_ on the drives don't turn on, but the _motors_ do! A few seconds after power up, the drives start spinning, and they spin for about 40 seconds. Something in there is looking for something to boot from, and when it's not finding it, it's giving up. That means that something in there is WORKING! Another thing: that trapdoor I though was on the back of the monitor just turned out to be creative forming of the plastic, designed to fool people like me into thinking that the monitor could be adjusted by mere mortals. Maybe it's software adjustable. :) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Mar 13 09:35:48 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <199903131535.AA26317@world.std.com> Well, the day has come... next weekend is when I've arranged to go and get the pdp-8s and the pdp-11/34 that I've been making room for at home... In preparation of the move, I just wanted to ask the list for some advice on how to transport so as to have no (or minimum) risk of damage. The machines are currently in two tall (6') and one medium (about 4') racks. There is a minimum of cabling between the racks, so separating them should not be a problem. I'm planning on marking any such cables so they can be restored. Obviously, the RL disks will have heads locked down. The other disks are Diablo (RK05 equivalents), so how do I lock those down? Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a lift gate, so I was planning on unloaded all the boxes from the racks (CPU, disks, anything else) and placing them on shipping pads, the disks with foam pads underneath. I was planning on tipping the racks over onto dollies to be wheeled up the ramp into the truck where they would travel on their sides, on mats. One thing I learned from boating -- If something can possibly end up on the deck en route, *put it there* before casting off... Also, in order to make some room, I'm getting rid of a few things and wanted to offer them to people on the list. What I have to get rid of are two 11/05 chassis, with power supplies, unknown state (I got them from someone else in that state), and one 11/10 chassis, also in unknown state. They are pretty heavy, so I'm not up to lugging them somewhere for shipment. Also, since they are unknown state, it might be best for someone local to Framingham, Mass to pick them up if interested. Finally, if anyone is interested in helping in the move to experience the procedure of moving old iron (hows that for a "fence-painting come-on"?), please contact me off-list... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 13 10:03:53 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> >Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a >lift gate, The two aren't mutually exclusive. Several times I've rented a lift-gate truck, usually from Budget, to move a machine. Now this was always on the West Coast, and it's possible that on the other coast that the laws are different, or that the truck companies just don't want to risk renting to folks who probably don't know how to run a lift. You might also try some of the non-UHaul-non-Budget- non-Ryder companies in your neighborhood (the kind that rent tractors and bulldozers) and see if they'll rent you a liftgate. > so I was planning on unloaded all the boxes from the racks >(CPU, disks, anything else) and placing them on shipping pads, the >disks with foam pads underneath. I was planning on tipping the racks >over onto dollies to be wheeled up the ramp into the truck where they >would travel on their sides, on mats. Sounds like a fine plan. Note that many medium-sized station wagons will hold a single H960, too. Get yourself nice dollies with pneumatic wheels if at all possible. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 13 10:26:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Doug Spence wrote: > > There is another machine just like it at the same store, even grimier than > this one was. But considering the hassle of hauling and storing this > thing, I don't think I'll have the energy to go back for it. Yes, but that one may in fact be the good, working one :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Mar 13 10:41:52 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <199903131535.AA26317@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990313111138.009d6320@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:35 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Megan said something like: > >Well, the day has come... next weekend is when I've arranged to go >and get the pdp-8s and the pdp-11/34 that I've been making room for >at home... > >In preparation of the move, I just wanted to ask the list for some >advice on how to transport so as to have no (or minimum) risk of >damage. > >The machines are currently in two tall (6') and one medium (about 4') >racks. There is a minimum of cabling between the racks, so separating >them should not be a problem. I'm planning on marking any such cables >so they can be restored. Hi Megan, Recall that big haul of DEC gear I got last summer? I rented a 15-foot Ryder truck with a liftgate. Worked quite well. A heap of moving blankets were tossed-into the truck by the company. Luckily, the truck was packed so doggone tight that no tie-down straps were needed. Barely got the door pulled down :) Drove a bit over 50 miles like that with no problems. It was about five thousand lbs. of load. You should obtain some straps, etc. anyway. Also probably a stack of small blocks of wood for wheel chocks under the racks could be a good idea. Old carpet pieces/remnants worked well for me too. We just had new carpeting put into this house before we moved in and I scrounged a big stack of pieces just for moving my radio collection last spring. Worked well to set stuff on and pad standing racks and the big VAXen. > >Obviously, the RL disks will have heads locked down. The other disks >are Diablo (RK05 equivalents), so how do I lock those down? > >Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a >lift gate, so I was planning on unloaded all the boxes from the racks Hmmm, in New York State I was able to rent and drive that 15' truck. The 25-footer that was available which had a liftgate was off limits for me. I needed a CDL or commercial driver's license for that thing. Now in MA, which I assume is your Home State, the CDL limit is apparently different. What I'm saying is: A liftgate is a Very Handy Thing (TM). So, may I suggest you find a friend of a family member or good friend's friend, etc. who has a CDL? This could be worth your while as far as expended effort. The BA11-K box, which I assume your 11/34 is in, weighs around 90 lbs with no modules. Jeez, what a time I had removing mine from a rack in the garage, lugging it down into the basement and getting the danged thing hung over half-way up in a 6-foot rack. The RL's were not too bad but a lot of lifting to move them too. If the 8's are in BA11-sized boxes, those would be equally a lot of work. >(CPU, disks, anything else) and placing them on shipping pads, the >disks with foam pads underneath. I was planning on tipping the racks >over onto dollies to be wheeled up the ramp into the truck where they >would travel on their sides, on mats. > >One thing I learned from boating -- If something can possibly end up on >the deck en route, *put it there* before casting off... Amen. Gravity is not a good helper sometimes ;) > >Also, in order to make some room, I'm getting rid of a few things >and wanted to offer them to people on the list. What I have to get >rid of are two 11/05 chassis, with power supplies, unknown state (I >got them from someone else in that state), and one 11/10 chassis, >also in unknown state. They are pretty heavy, so I'm not up to >lugging them somewhere for shipment. Also, since they are unknown >state, it might be best for someone local to Framingham, Mass to >pick them up if interested. > >Finally, if anyone is interested in helping in the move to experience >the procedure of moving old iron (hows that for a "fence-painting >come-on"?), please contact me off-list... Well, if I lived closer I would pitch-in for sure. I'm "experienced" at moving large DEC and IBM gear plus my boatanchor and military radio collection (usually no flyweights there as Bill Donzelli and Allison could attest) because of moving to another house and the DEC haul last summer. Also, if I lived on the far east edge of NYS, I could rent a 15-foot liftgate straight job, drive over and help solve part of your dilema. Good luck and have 'loads' of fun! :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 13 11:30:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <199903131535.AA26317@world.std.com> Message-ID: >racks. There is a minimum of cabling between the racks, so separating >them should not be a problem. I'm planning on marking any such cables >so they can be restored. I assume you've already got a good method thought up for marking them. However, I found when moving my /44 that a roll of 1 inch masking tape and a felt tip marker works good for this. You can use the masking tape to make tags on the cables or to stick on the hardware so you don't have to write on it. If you can get a liftgate I'd seriously recommend it. If you can't get gloves, steel toed shoes, and help. I still remember unloading my TU-81+ by myself at my storage unit. About took my knuckels off, then got it stuck in the crack of the elevator door. Which brings up something else. A sheet of metal for placing on the ground so you can roll over it instead of difficult spots in the ground. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 13 13:17:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19990313191751.18176.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Sounds like a fine plan. Note that many medium-sized station wagons > will hold a single H960, too. And a friend has an SUV that holds *two* H960s. :-) If I ever buy an SUV, my criteria for minimum acceptable cargo space is that it must hold two H960s, or one 2M tall coin-operated video game, or one oversized cocktail-table style video game (the old Atari Football with the *giant* trackballs). By the way, if you use a station wagon or SUV in this fashion, it is advisable to flatten some large cardboard boxes to line the bed so that you don't damage the carpet/upholstery. This is in addition to any padding to protect the cargo. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 13 13:18:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <199903131918.AA19720@world.std.com> Larry: Buck: < >> Sounds like a fine plan. Note that many medium-sized station wagons >> will hold a single H960, too. >And a friend has an SUV that holds *two* H960s. :-) A true full-size station wagon (like a 1976 Pontiac Grand Safari) will barely hold two H960's between the wheel wells. But I doubt that any wagons this size have been made for decades. I still occasionally see newish Buick Roadmaster wagons, but I don't think these are big enough to fit two racks in. There are companies out there that customize Roadmaster wagons into hearses; some of these might have enough space inside for two H960's- I've never been in one, so I wouldn't know for sure! For smallish moves like the one Megan is undertaking, I think a trailer behind a car is a fine way to go. Really fragile stuff like drives and disk packs can ride up front where it's climate controlled, and most trailers have beds low enough that tipping racks in is a complete non-issue. This is how I got my 11/70 home, and it was in a dual-wide high-boy (*not* tipped!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 13 14:07:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: items purchased from Tony Dellett Message-ID: <19990313200702.18543.qmail@brouhaha.com> Back in November, Tony Dellett posted to this list a message offering a bunch of items for sale. A copy is attached below. Would anyone who purchased items from Tony please send me private email? Thanks! Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:24:10 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu From: "Dellett, Anthony" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Spring Cleaning X-To: "'classiccmp@u.washington.edu'" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN I know it's not spring but it is time for me to thin out my collection. I'm offering these for sale here first before sending them off to ebay. Email me with offers to anthony.dellett@staples.com. I dont get time to check the list much so posing a reply there will get you nowhere. Atari 800 (not working, parts?) Atari 1050 Disk Drive (two of them) Commodore 64 (complete in box, I have two like this) Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (2 in box, one works, one doesn't) Commodore 1541 II Disk Drive (complete in box) Commodore 128 (complete in box) Commodore 1571 Disk Drive (complete in box) Compupro S-100 Enclosure (motherboard and PS only, no cards) IMSAI 8080 W/8080 Processor Card, SIO4 (Godbout w/docs), RAM64 (Godbout w/docs), PIO8 (IMSAI) Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) Kaypro II (incl. boot disk) Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) NorthStar Horizon (not working) NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) Osborne I (not working) Osborne Executive (incl. boot disk) Processor Technology SOL w/SOLOS personality module Sanyo CP/M System (with software) TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) TRS-80 Model III (with some software) 8" DS/DD Floppy Drive (in wooden enclosure) and Controller (Godbout w/docs) 8" SS/SD Floppy Drive (no enclosure) 8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) 8" Hard Disk Drive in enclosure w/controller (Fujitsu Hard Drive, Godbout Controller w/docs) I also have some random Commodore stuff that I cant remember (modem, paddles, trackball, etc...) I can take a closer look if anyone is interested. A word of warning... I'd like to sell these things to someone on the list but I'll only accept "reasonable" offers. Tony From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Mar 13 14:15:48 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Items Available for Trade Message-ID: <199903132015.MAA17365@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Time to clear out some stuff. I have the following item available for trade, or potential sale: A Motorola "EXORcisor" 6800 development system, from the mid 1970s. Dual 8" floppies, and SOROC dumb terminal. Full documentation, software, several development boards. This outfit was used to develop specialized devices around the Motorola 6800 CPU. The terminal doesn't work and I haven't had time to figure out why. The other items were operational about 5 years ago. I'm looking for anything pdp-8 or pdp-11 related. Peripherals such as a DECtape drive or paper tape devices, heck even a card reader, would be nice. Even some documentation, DEC handbooks etc. A real longshot would be anything related to the IBM 1620, docs, software. If the trading doesn't work out then I would sell the EXORcisor system for a reasonable best offer (read that as "pretty cheap"). Please contact me eithor on the list or via email. I'm located in Vancouver, BC. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 13 14:25:02 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <19990313191751.18176.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >> Sounds like a fine plan. Note that many medium-sized station wagons >> will hold a single H960, too. > >And a friend has an SUV that holds *two* H960s. :-) > >If I ever buy an SUV, my criteria for minimum acceptable cargo space is >that it must hold two H960s, or one 2M tall coin-operated video game, >or one oversized cocktail-table style video game (the old Atari Football >with the *giant* trackballs). So is the H960 the rack that is about 4 feet high? I'm looking into getting a new vehicle and this is one of the things that I'm taking into consideration. For me it needs to be able to hold a 21" monitor box first and formost, if it can't do that it's definitly to small. Secondly I'd like to be able to haul a 19" rack. I can toss a 6 or 7 foot tall 19" rack in the back of my current pickup. I'm wondering if the smaller pickups along the lines of a Chevy S-10 can handle that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Mar 13 14:23:23 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <19990313191751.18176.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990313122323.00de1100@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:17 PM 3/13/99 -0000, you wrote: >> Sounds like a fine plan. Note that many medium-sized station wagons >> will hold a single H960, too. > >And a friend has an SUV that holds *two* H960s. :-) Past experience has shown that my 1979 Chevy Surburban will hold 2 fully loaded H960 racks, plus numerous random other items stuffed in the various other random spaces quite nicely! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Sat Mar 13 14:48:42 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6C2@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Megan - Depending on how many trips you're willing to make, a station wagon can do the trick quite nicely. I used my Taurus wagon DECwreck a couple of years ago to move four of the 6' racks containing a pair of PDP-11/45s without a lot of trouble (other than weight.) The fit was perfect for one rack per trip and the rack had nowhere to go. -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: mbg@world.std.com [SMTP:mbg@world.std.com] Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 10:36 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Well, the day has come... next weekend is when I've arranged to go and get the pdp-8s and the pdp-11/34 that I've been making room for at home... In preparation of the move, I just wanted to ask the list for some advice on how to transport so as to have no (or minimum) risk of damage. The machines are currently in two tall (6') and one medium (about 4') racks. There is a minimum of cabling between the racks, so separating them should not be a problem. I'm planning on marking any such cables so they can be restored. Obviously, the RL disks will have heads locked down. The other disks are Diablo (RK05 equivalents), so how do I lock those down? Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a lift gate, so I was planning on unloaded all the boxes from the racks (CPU, disks, anything else) and placing them on shipping pads, the disks with foam pads underneath. I was planning on tipping the racks over onto dollies to be wheeled up the ramp into the truck where they would travel on their sides, on mats. One thing I learned from boating -- If something can possibly end up on the deck en route, *put it there* before casting off... Also, in order to make some room, I'm getting rid of a few things and wanted to offer them to people on the list. What I have to get rid of are two 11/05 chassis, with power supplies, unknown state (I got them from someone else in that state), and one 11/10 chassis, also in unknown state. They are pretty heavy, so I'm not up to lugging them somewhere for shipment. Also, since they are unknown state, it might be best for someone local to Framingham, Mass to pick them up if interested. Finally, if anyone is interested in helping in the move to experience the procedure of moving old iron (hows that for a "fence-painting come-on"?), please contact me off-list... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 13 14:51:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <990313155155.2020069a@trailing-edge.com> > So is the H960 the rack that is about 4 feet high? No, the H960 is a bit over 6 feet high. You're probably thinking about the H9640/H9642 style boxes, which are about 45" high. There were numerous variations in slightly different widths and depths to handle special cases (i.e. the 3-RA80 configuration, the TU80/RA80 configuration, etc.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Mar 13 15:37:35 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: References: <19990313191751.18176.qmail@brouhaha.com> <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990313163735.00950790@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Zane H. Healy had spoken clearly: >in the back of my current pickup. I'm wondering if the smaller pickups >along the lines of a Chevy S-10 can handle that. Altho they did make longbox (8 foot) boxes on the S-10 line, they're pretty tough to find. Otherwise, an S10 will fit anything 6 foot even... or maybe an inch or two over. If you have room for a little diagonal work, you may able to squeeze 6 foot 6 inches. Weight-wise - I've found the S10 line to be quite capable. They're standard 1/2-ton, but I've had over 3/4 ton in the back of mine, once... I pulled full-size trucks out of the ditch; and my pickup was the lowest-end pickup available - 2.5 litre engine, 5 speed stick, didn't even have a bumper! The most I towed with mine (trailered) was 2.5 ton, I think. Didn't go very fast (especially up hills... ;-) but it pulled fine. BTW, receiver hitches are the only way to go for towing--- especially when you don't have a bumper! Excellent truck, but don't get "Steel Gray" - the paint falls off. ;-) They make a good rescue vehicle, as mine averaged 32mpg highway... For comparison, full-size Chevy short-boxes are roughly 6 foot 6 inches, IIRC, and std. boxes are 8 foot. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 13 15:45:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <990313155155.2020069a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >No, the H960 is a bit over 6 feet high. You're probably >thinking about the H9640/H9642 style boxes, which are about >45" high. There were numerous variations in slightly different >widths and depths to handle special cases (i.e. the 3-RA80 >configuration, the TU80/RA80 configuration, etc.) Your right I was thinking the H9640/H9642 style boxes, my TU-81+ and PDP-11/44 use them. Which means what I really want to know is how many vehicles currenlty on the market can handle at least a single H960? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fpp at concentric.net Sat Mar 13 15:46:29 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:41:59 2005 Subject: Apple II e Message-ID: <001101be6d9a$f5177920$d4f3adce@fpp> I have several Apple II e in various condition. A few missing keytops etc. Also have the external floppy drives both styles. Need the room so I'd like to sell them for $5.00 each plus any shipping. I will be taking them to TRW on the 27th. Space E-11. I also have 2 McDonald Douglas terminals. Don't know anything about them execpt the were working. Same price $5 each. From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Mar 13 17:17:26 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <02b501be6da7$bb607760$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> > >Which means what I really want to know is how many vehicles currently on >the market can handle at least a single H960? > My old 1/2 ton Chevy pickup has had in it a H960 (SA800 - 8 RA90's) 860 lbs and 3 HSC50's, a star coupler, 2 TU80's all at once. I never said I was legal weight but it took it. Yes I did avoid the scales. I found out how heavy the SA800 was when I went to unload it. I had to half gut it to roll it off the truck. Then I looked at the manual to find out it is 860 some pounds. What a difference it was unloading it by myself than loading it with a forklift. Initially I was going to put the second SA800 on the same load but the first squatted the truck enough. What model are the Diablo drives? I have some Diablo manuals from those days and did some work on them back then. If they are Diablo 31 or 33's I should still have the books to refresh the fading memory on locking the heads etc. I would check with some of the truck rental companies about the CDL requirements in MA. Federal requirements are anything licensed over 26,000 lbs. or anything with air brakes require a CDL. I have had no problem renting trucks with lift gates in any state so far. One of the companies I have used and had very good luck with (very new equipment and gentle suspension) is Idealease. All of their trucks have lift gates that tuck under the truck. (important when dock loading) and nice E channels for heavy duty straps. They also have wood floors which is good for nailing pieces of 2x4's into at the base of racks and pieces that you can't strap down. Some of their locations will not do one way rentals however. Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 13 16:10:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 13, 99 09:30:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990313/36ec19dc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 13 16:00:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <199903131535.AA26317@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 13, 99 10:35:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3019 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990313/ddca276c/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Mar 13 17:50:37 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: items purchased from Tony Dellett Message-ID: <19990313.175412.329.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Yeah, tony was supposed to send a 'parts only' c-128, and maybe a 1571, but I haven't heard from him. I haven't pursued this for two reasons: I haven't sent him any money, and he has had a seriously life-changing experience, leaving destruction in its wake. SO, anyway, is there a way to properly handle deadbeats onthis list? There's someone I'd like to publicly embarass, but I'm unsure if it would be the proper thing to do. . . . Jeff On 13 Mar 1999 20:07:02 -0000 Eric Smith writes: >Back in November, Tony Dellett posted to this list a message offering >a bunch of items for sale. A copy is attached below. > >Would anyone who purchased items from Tony please send me private >email? > >Thanks! >Eric >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- >Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:24:10 -0500 >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >From: "Dellett, Anthony" >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >Subject: Spring Cleaning >X-To: "'classiccmp@u.washington.edu'" >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >I know it's not spring but it is time for me to thin out my >collection. I'm >offering these for sale here first before sending them off to ebay. > >Email me with offers to anthony.dellett@staples.com. I dont get time >to >check the list much so posing a reply there will get you nowhere. > >Atari 800 (not working, parts?) >Atari 1050 Disk Drive (two of them) >Commodore 64 (complete in box, I have two like this) >Commodore 1541 Disk Drive (2 in box, one works, one doesn't) >Commodore 1541 II Disk Drive (complete in box) >Commodore 128 (complete in box) >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive (complete in box) >Compupro S-100 Enclosure (motherboard and PS only, no cards) >IMSAI 8080 W/8080 Processor Card, SIO4 (Godbout w/docs), RAM64 >(Godbout >w/docs), PIO8 (IMSAI) >Kaypro I (incl. boot disk) >Kaypro II (incl. boot disk) >Kaypro IV (incl. boot disk) >NorthStar Horizon (not working) >NorthStar Advantage (works completely, with boot disk) >Osborne I (not working) >Osborne Executive (incl. boot disk) >Processor Technology SOL w/SOLOS personality module >Sanyo CP/M System (with software) >TI-99/4A Computer (beige model, in box) >TRS-80 Model III (with some software) > >8" DS/DD Floppy Drive (in wooden enclosure) and Controller (Godbout >w/docs) >8" SS/SD Floppy Drive (no enclosure) >8" SS/SD Dual Drive Subsystem (ICOM) >8" Hard Disk Drive in enclosure w/controller (Fujitsu Hard Drive, >Godbout >Controller w/docs) > >I also have some random Commodore stuff that I cant remember (modem, >paddles, trackball, etc...) I can take a closer look if anyone is >interested. > >A word of warning... I'd like to sell these things to someone on the >list >but I'll only accept "reasonable" offers. > >Tony ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From mbg at world.std.com Sat Mar 13 19:12:33 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Items Available for Trade Message-ID: <199903140112.AA24695@world.std.com> >be anything related to the IBM 1620, docs, software. Just so happens I have some IBM 1620 docs, including a programming (SPS) manual... I haven't done so yet, but I have promised to make a copy for the people doing the 1620 renovation at the Computer Museum at Moffett Field in California... I could probably make a second set if you are interested... contact me off-list... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Mar 13 19:14:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... References: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199903140114.AA25484@world.std.com> >So is the H960 the rack that is about 4 feet high? I'm looking into 4'? Nope... The H960 is 6' x 19" by 22" Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Mar 13 19:16:08 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <199903140116.AA26653@world.std.com> It's an hour trip up to where they are... I'd rather not make multiple 2-hour drives if I can help it, which is why I'm trying for a truck. Someone mentioned Budget... I'm going to contact them... Megan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 13 19:40:00 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <990313204000.202006c4@trailing-edge.com> > Someone mentioned Budget... I'm going to contact them... Well, I always went to www.budget.com to make reservations with them, but I see that now that I'm 3000 miles away from BC that particular web site doesn't do me a lot of good! It looks like www.budgetrentacar.com is the place most folks want to start at. According to the web site at least some of the 15' and 26' trucks have liftgates; in my experience the availability of 26-footers with liftgates is far superior to 15-footers. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Mar 13 20:04:57 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: AUCTION - Apple Lisa In-Reply-To: <199903132015.MAA17365@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Apple Lisa Computer - Built-in 3.5 inch floppy disk - Keyboard and Mouse (Keyboard missing Enter keycap on 10 key keypad) - Profile External hard disk & controller Condition: The computer powers on and asks, in its own way, for boot media. BUT the screen has some serious sync problems and is very scrambled. This is a video problem as connecting a composite monitor to the port on the back displays the same scrambled image on it. The cables between the controller and the Profile are missing. I do not have boot diskettes for this machine but instructions for acquiring and making them have been given on this list. The case exhibits the usual yellowing of a machine that has been used. In addition, the battery has been removed as it leaked and the board areas around the leak have been cleaned as much as possible to minimize damage. The battery will require a replacement to be installed, which has not been done. Nonetheless, this is a relatively rare example of one of the first commercially mass-produced Graphical User Interface machines. It would be good for spare parts or, if you already have a non-functioning Lisa, you can probably replace the card responsible for video and have a working machine. Auction Terms: This will be a sealed bid auction. Send your offers to me at wirehead@retrocomputing.com. They will be recorded and the highest bidder by Midnight March 17, 1999 will be sold the item. Everyone, who bid, will receive an email at that time telling them the high bid but not to whom it was sold. Shipping will be in addition to your bid and will be $25.00 in the continental United States. The minimum bid on this item is $50.00. Payment Terms: The successful bidder will send a check or money order for the winning bid amount plus $25.00 shipping to my address, which the winner will be provided. If payment is in the form of a money order, the item will be shipped immediately. If payment is in the form of a check, shipping will be delayed 5 business days while the check clears. I know that a couple folks have complained about me auctioning items here. I simply want to make this piece available to the widest possible group of actual collectors who will give it a good home, care for it and use it. Obviously, I can't verify someone's intentions as I'm not psychic, but I trust the group here and liquidating these items to the folks here eases feelings of guilt for sending these machines away. It has been 7 days since my last auction. Thanks and happy bidding! Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 13 21:22:53 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <199903140322.AA27095@world.std.com> ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:24:31 -0800 ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:24:30 -0800 < <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> in the back of my current pickup. I'm wondering if the smaller pickups <>along the lines of a Chevy S-10 can handle that. < I'm finding stuff that was buried in the uncharted, uncivilized regions of the basement over at the old house. I have a Commodore CBM 8050 Dual Disk drive unit. Originally it was with a CBM 8032 that's long been disposed of. Don't know condition as I have no way to test it now. Anybody want it for whatever you may want to offer? I'm easy! Consider that shipping weight may be around 15-20 lbs from zip 14701. I'll likely have more odds 'n' ends that I don't need and will post them here for you. Just gotta dig through the pile. I found some old radio and TV parts today that I had back when I was in high school (figure '68 - '71). An archeologist's playground over there ;) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From bsa3 at cornell.edu Sun Mar 14 00:06:50 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <199903101726.JAA08588@oa.ptloma.edu>; from Cameron Kaiser on Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 09:26:54AM -0800 References: <199903101726.JAA08588@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <19990314010650.49077@cornell.edu> On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 09:26:54AM -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is definitely OT. I would argue that since the NS{5|7}00 models were the best hardware Apple has ever produced, there weren't many made, and they've been discontinued, they can be considered on-topic. > It's a 603e PPC emulating an RS/6000 (!), 132MHz, 32MB RAM. Fast sucker. ITYM 604e. > Quick question: are there any AIX gurus out there? I need to upgrade > this box to 4.1.5 or some Y2K compliant version. I know several AIX gurus, as I have an office two floors down from the 20th most powerful AIX-based computer in existence. (Or some such small number) Email me privately if you don't actually want 4.3; I can almost certainly get the patches for you, assuming that 4.1 -> 4.1.5 is a free upgrade. > 4.2 is apparently right out as I doubt IBM supports the POWER > architecture anymore, but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. First, the Network Servers are PowerPC and not POWER. Second, IBM's flagship CPU is the POWER3, so I'd definitely say that POWER is still supported. How's 160KB of L1 (that's not a typo) cache sound? Then there's the eight-way superscalarness (is that a valid word?) to consider. But that's definitely getting off topic. > I've also thought about linuxppc on this. Any ideas from those willing to > perpetuate yet another OT thread? ;-) Just like any other supported system, except much nicer hardware (if not quite as good in the CPU department as the newer machines). -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 14 01:39:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990313163735.00950790@mail.30below.com> References: <19990313191751.18176.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Please be carefull when moving heaving equipment. Don't trust lift gates to remain remotely level. I've watched or seen the results of things rolling off, not pretty. Tie things down SECURELY. Large items that seem impossible to move, cheerfully tip over when the truck hits a pothole, and they smash anything under them too. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 14 01:59:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? Message-ID: I saw an IBM 5150 today in a thrift store. The odd thing about it was that it had no disk drives! It only had two black covers over the disk drive bays. It seems like it came from the factory this way. It is the first revision of motherboard with the cassette jack, so its conceivable that it was used with a cassette recorder and was always like this. Does anyone wish to concur on this? I'm debating if I should get it, but not for the $20 they have it tagged for. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 14 02:12:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: Message-ID: <36EB6F5A.26A7ABF6@rain.org> My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship with no floppy drives, but IBM rapidly found out that people preferred the floppy drives. My guess is that it probably has a low serial number and most likely has the 16-64K motherboard. I would put it in the rare classification (assuming it came that way from IBM.) Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I saw an IBM 5150 today in a thrift store. The odd thing about it was > that it had no disk drives! It only had two black covers over the disk > drive bays. It seems like it came from the factory this way. It is the > first revision of motherboard with the cassette jack, so its conceivable > that it was used with a cassette recorder and was always like this. Does > anyone wish to concur on this? I'm debating if I should get it, but not > for the $20 they have it tagged for. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 14 02:19:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: items purchased from Tony Dellett In-Reply-To: <19990313.175412.329.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > SO, anyway, is there a way to properly handle deadbeats onthis > list? There's someone I'd like to publicly embarass, but I'm unsure > if it would be the proper thing to do. . . . I've been victim of a flake on this list a while ago but the amount wasn't enough to make a big deal over. It'll come back to bite him in the ass when it counts :) Aside from that one incident I've had nothing but good experiences trading with people here, which is what I would expect. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 14 02:24:23 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <36EB6F5A.26A7ABF6@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship with no I have heard people talk about a 5150 a few times, where are some good pics and specs so I can appear less dumb in the future? From guerney at uq.net.au Sun Mar 14 03:12:11 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Items Available for Trade Message-ID: <005b01be6e01$2f894320$32f665cb@default> Said Kevin McQuiggen: >A real longshot would >be anything related to the IBM 1620, docs, software. Back in 1978 the University Dept where I worked gave away its IBM 1620 (had been working regularly up till then) and I managed to grab a copy of "Programming the IBM 1620" by Clarence Germain, 2nd ed., 1965 from the bin. Contains 192 pages of detail on the hardware and Fortran and ML programming. I would be prepared to photocopy it if it was of real use to someone - they would have to pay photocopying and postage - about $US20 +/- $US5 all up. Phil in Brisbane, Australia. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 04:25:36 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <19990314010650.49077@cornell.edu> (message from Brad Ackerman on Sun, 14 Mar 1999 01:06:50 -0500) References: <199903101726.JAA08588@oa.ptloma.edu> <19990314010650.49077@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <19990314102536.22788.qmail@brouhaha.com> Brad Ackerman wrote: > I would argue that since the NS{5|7}00 models were the best hardware > Apple has ever produced, there weren't many made, and they've been > discontinued, they can be considered on-topic. As people like to remind me, the charter of this list specifically does not define classic to be * the best * rare * discontinued It's on-topic if it is at least ten years old. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Mar 14 05:38:13 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: items purchased from Tony Dellett References: Message-ID: <36EB9FA3.69820346@bigfoot.com> Not to mention the mess about a year, year-and-a-half ago, over the "wrong item" in a trans-Atlantic sale of a TRS-80....nearly took the whole subscriber base out with that one. Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > > SO, anyway, is there a way to properly handle deadbeats onthis > > list? There's someone I'd like to publicly embarass, but I'm unsure > > if it would be the proper thing to do. . . . > > I've been victim of a flake on this list a while ago but the amount wasn't > enough to make a big deal over. It'll come back to bite him in the ass > when it counts :) > > Aside from that one incident I've had nothing but good experiences trading > with people here, which is what I would expect. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 14 07:28:27 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Doug Spence wrote: > > > There is another machine just like it at the same store, even grimier than > > this one was. But considering the hassle of hauling and storing this > > thing, I don't think I'll have the energy to go back for it. > > Yes, but that one may in fact be the good, working one :) I'm hoping that they'll let me take it home in pieces. I might go in to buy it, and grab the motherboard and leave the rest of the hulk for later. Later in the week I'll go back for the drives, etc. It can all be disassembled with a single screwdriver, so I hope they let me do something like that. Of course, I'd like to be able to check the system out before buying it. It might be the good, working one, but it also might be in worse shape than the one I've got. I want to check the motherboard to see if it's missing the same parts as the one I've got. > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 14 07:33:28 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: AES 7100 photos Message-ID: For those of you that requested photos of the AES 7100, I just put some up on my web site. I was exceptionally lazy about carrying stuff around, so I just used the family television set as my monitor for grabbing and cropping the pictures. I hope they're in focus. :) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 14 08:11:32 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <199903140116.AA26653@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > It's an hour trip up to where they are... I'd rather not make multiple > 2-hour drives if I can help it, which is why I'm trying for a truck. > Someone mentioned Budget... I'm going to contact them... I know of no laws relating lift vs. ramp on anything related to special class licenses, though perhaps there might be something special enacted in the People's Republic of Massachusetts. You might inquire at rental places over the line in NH where (most) of the laws are a bit less draconian. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Mar 14 03:46:34 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <03b801be6d31$8d4cd380$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: <199903141448.JAA09969@smtp.interlog.com> On 13 Mar 99 at 1:11, Buck Savage wrote: > Larry: > > Given your start in computing in the mid-fifties, you must now be > in your mid-sixties. I was one who started in the early 70's (as > early as my 12-th year) and am now 41. The machine was > an IBM 370/155 with 1MB of main memory, and the language was > APL (APL*PLUS from Scientific Time Sharing). > Pretty close, I'll begin my 63rd year this summer. I never spent any great length of time on computers untill the early 80s and then the late 80s till now. Being closer to it ,you've likely seen much more computing than I. I did use a slide-rule at college tho. :^)) > Well, it is true that the machines of the 50's were the so called > Unit Record devices and the low quality mainframes of the day, > like the 7090, the 1620 (if I get the numbering correct) and the > 1401 (all of IBM fame). I had the privilege of working with such > Unit Record devices, and even to have programmed a few of the > old style plug boards. > > I am greatful that those days are over! > > William R. Buckley > Actually, I got a kick out of wiring up plug boards. Tangible logic. Why I prefer Hardware over Software. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 14 09:14:13 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any >of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one >of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and >indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? The PDPs were DEC's series of processors. The PDP-8 and -11 were most successful. The processors were used in a wide variety of machines. The VAX is DEC's first 32-bit machine. It used an OS called VMS, which some people like a lot for some reason, to the point of still using it. I heard that NT has a lot of VMS engineers behind it. An Altair is an early 8-bit machine based on the Intel 8080 processor. It used the S-100 bus and was analogous to the IBM PC in what it did to the PC market. It usually came as a kit and was poorly designed/unreliable. Although the Altair used some medieval methods of programming, in later machines like the IMSAI, one would generally use a dumb terminal and resort to the front panel for debugging purposes. OK, now you may correct everything I said :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Mar 14 10:09:47 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Definitely OT: Apple Network Server 500 In-Reply-To: <19990314102536.22788.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 14, 99 10:25:36 am Message-ID: <199903141609.IAA13180@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/427c8e56/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Mar 14 10:21:57 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:59 PM 3/13/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I saw an IBM 5150 today in a thrift store. The odd thing about it was >that it had no disk drives! It only had two black covers over the disk >drive bays. It seems like it came from the factory this way. It is the >first revision of motherboard with the cassette jack, so its conceivable >that it was used with a cassette recorder and was always like this. Does >anyone wish to concur on this? I'm debating if I should get it, but not >for the $20 they have it tagged for. Sure 'nuff. The original configuration of the IBM PC had no drives, and 4k of memory. Diagnostics and a utility or two on Cassette (altho the cassette player was optional?!?). BASIC in the ROM so it could be programmed... Back in the days when a single floppy drive and controller was a (apx. $900 option) Frighteningly enough... I remember selling quite a few of them in that (cassette only) configuration. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Mar 14 10:31:57 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:14 AM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: > >>> Although the Altair used some medieval methods of programming... >in later machines like the IMSAI, one would generally use a dumb terminal >and resort to the front panel for debugging purposes. It is always amusing to note how the newbies denigrate the past practices without considering that if those practices did not exist, and people had not mastered them, then the art would not have advanced to the level that it is today... Of course... After the next (in progress even now perhaps) rennissance in computing, I suspect people will be making similar comments about the 'bloat-ware' level of programming that is prevalent in the masses today, which allows nearly anyone with minimal experience and training to write mediocre code which is readily accepted by the mass audience (while at the same time being held in great disdain by those occupying the higher levels of the art). -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 14 11:10:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... Message-ID: <199903141710.AA05341@world.std.com> Message-ID: The original IBM PC (5150) had 16K of memory (NOT 4k - THAT was the TRS-80 :-), expandable by populating sockets to 64K. Case, power supply, motherboard with "Cassette BASIC" in ROM, and keyboard. It sold for about $1320. Without video, without disk controller, without drives, without serial, without parallel. It wasn't usable without adding video. Although I did know one person who hooked up a votrax, and never used her video other than to have a friend load software in from cassette to "boot". There was a built in cassette interface. IBM never sold the cable for it, but the pinout matched the TRS-80, so the RS 26-???? cable worked. Most people opted for "complete systems", which added $400 @ for Tandon TM100-1 single sided full height drives, ~$300 for disk controller, ~$300 for video card, ~$600 for monitor, and a few hundred dollars for each row of 16K memory. In addition to portability, that meant that Compaq could claim to provide enormous cost savings, by selling their machine for "LESS THAN $3000". But among those rare few of the populace who understood how to use a screwdriver, the cheapest route to a PC was the $1320 base machine, plus disk controller, and CGA video card. Then go aftermarket (mostly TRS-80 suppliers) for drives at less than $200 @, cheap memory, and a composite "closed circuit TV" monitor. Within another year or two, aftermarket accessory boards became available, and eventually clones and clone motherboards. IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two functions? But the original $1320 5150 was devoid of drives and cards. ** FS (after I back off all of the mods and put the original pieces back in) ** -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 14 11:34:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I saw an IBM 5150 today in a thrift store. The odd thing about it was > that it had no disk drives! It only had two black covers over the disk > drive bays. It seems like it came from the factory this way. It is the I have a few extra of the original IBM black covers (MUCH sturdier than what clones used). Although some of the covers that I have came from machines that IBM sold with ONE drive. A LOT of people I knew, including the lab at the school where I teach, bought their PCs bare. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Mar 14 11:35:56 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990314093556.00d14100@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:27 AM 3/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >The original IBM PC (5150) had 16K of memory (NOT 4k - THAT was the TRS-80 >:-), expandable by populating sockets to 64K. Case, power supply, >motherboard with "Cassette BASIC" in ROM, and keyboard. It sold for about >$1320. Without video, without disk controller, without drives, without >serial, without parallel. Oops... crossing my machines (yet again...) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 14 12:52:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: >It is always amusing to note how the newbies denigrate the past practices >without considering that if those practices did not exist, and people had >not mastered them, then the art would not have advanced to the level that >it is today... Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 14 12:54:08 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >I have a few extra of the original IBM black covers (MUCH sturdier than >what clones used). Although some of the covers that I have came from All right! Classic drivebay cover collecting! --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Mar 14 13:00:24 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: DEC PathWorks available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990314110024.00960180@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I have several packages of DEC PathWorks software available as follows. PathWorks 4.1 for DOS (media and docs, three packages in the set). PathWorks 4.1 for OpenVMS (media and docs, two packages in the set). PathWorks 5 for OpenVMS LAN Manager (whatever the heck that is, media and docs, two boxes in the set). Since I plan on using NetBSD and TCP/IP for my main networking functions, I don't see that I'll ever need this stuff. Best offer takes the lot. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 14 13:05:36 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Medieval methods In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Of course... After the next (in progress even now perhaps) rennissance in >computing, I suspect people will be making similar comments about the >'bloat-ware' level of programming that is prevalent in the masses today, >which allows nearly anyone with minimal experience and training to write >mediocre code which is readily accepted by the mass audience (while at the >same time being held in great disdain by those occupying the higher levels >of the art). > > I'm not so sure. Rapid change defined the 80's and 90's, but a whole class of basic applications are starting to stabilize, which permits a really good version to rise to the top. Personally I kind of miss a word processor that has instantanious response like PIE on my Apple II. Anybody else remember PIE? From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 13:16:05 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 Message-ID: <36EC0AF5.11770C6D@mindspring.com> Does anyone know what this computer goes for? When i start it up, the screen is full of strange characters. I hit the orange button and then the drive lights go on and the bottom drive light stays on. The prompt is: Diskette? I don't have any disks for it. I just picked it up yesterday. What's wrong with it? How can i fix it? does anyone have any disks for it? Also, there is a guy at a flea market where i live who has a room full of old computer junk. That's where i picked up this computer. I've seen an Apple II plus with disk drive, a couple of TI99 4/As, and many old modems. There is also a very old Compaq portable, and about 5 Commadores. Who knows what else is in there. Is anyone interested in any of these? Let me know. From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 14 14:10:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? Message-ID: <199903142010.AA14481@world.std.com> >I saw an IBM 5150 today in a thrift store. The odd thing about it was >that it had no disk drives! It only had two black covers over the disk >drive bays. It seems like it came from the factory this way. It is the >first revision of motherboard with the cassette jack, so its conceivable >that it was used with a cassette recorder and was always like this. Does >anyone wish to concur on this? I'm debating if I should get it, but not >for the $20 they have it tagged for. Interesting... I had a machine in one of the piles at work (I have a second office, called the 'Annex' where I do hardware hacking for my group on occasion, and stuff gets dumped there) which I recently excessed, and it had 'IBM-PC' on it, along with 5150 on one of the labels... But it had a fair amount of memory in it, and a hard disk drive in it... Should I have saved it and tried to purchase it from the company? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 13:57:47 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? Message-ID: <01f901be6e58$022d1940$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant >that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of >them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and >joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two >functions? clock and ??? memory fade. Dan > >But the original $1320 5150 was devoid of drives and cards. ** FS >(after I back off all of the mods and put the original pieces back in) ** > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 14 14:40:23 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >I have a few extra of the original IBM black covers (MUCH sturdier than > >what clones used). Although some of the covers that I have came from > All right! Classic drivebay cover collecting! Well, actually, I'd rather trade for *RARE* Altair power cords. I was all set to try to get that one on e-bay for $7502 (to beat out the $7501 bids). But e-bay doesn't seem willing to handle the really important items. Could it be that somebody on e-bay staff is filching all the best dals for themselves? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 14 17:51:26 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990314175126.30574522@intellistar.net> At 11:03 AM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a >>lift gate, > >The two aren't mutually exclusive. Several times I've rented a >lift-gate truck, usually from Budget, to move a machine. Now this >was always on the West Coast, I've rented and driven trucks with lift gates from both Budget and Ryder in the last three weeks with no problems and nothing but a standard license. Perhaps you may need a special permit if you're going across state lines. Joe From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 15:55:09 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... References: <3.0.1.16.19990314175126.30574522@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36EC303D.1A30CFDD@mindspring.com> Joe wrote: > At 11:03 AM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a > >>lift gate, > > > >The two aren't mutually exclusive. Several times I've rented a > >lift-gate truck, usually from Budget, to move a machine. Now this > >was always on the West Coast, > > I've rented and driven trucks with lift gates from both Budget and Ryder > in the last three weeks with no problems and nothing but a standard > license. Perhaps you may need a special permit if you're going across state > lines. > > Joe I've worked for a rental company. Drove every truck/van they had except for the dump trucks, and huge Internationals they had, I needed to get a chauffeurs license to drive those. Most were flat-beds, but the covered vans all had lift gates on them. I've never had a problem, and don't see why you would. Just my 2 centavos. Robert From Jgzabol at aol.com Sun Mar 14 15:57:40 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: classic operating systems Message-ID: Hi all, question: Is there any classic operating system known for which the complete source code is available ? Thanks and regards John G. Zabolitzky From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 16:10:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> (message from James Willing on Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:21:57 -0800) References: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <19990314221046.25642.qmail@brouhaha.com> James Willing wrote: > The original configuration of the IBM PC had no drives, and 4k ^^ Actually, the minimum configuration was 16K, and could be expanded to 64K on the motherboard. 4K DRAMs were not supported. They also offered expansion cards for bus slots; IIRC IBM only offered the expansion cards with a full complement of 64K. Motherboards and expansion cards using the new and amazing 64K DRAMs came later. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 16:11:58 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <199903141710.AA05341@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199903141710.AA05341@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990314221158.25658.qmail@brouhaha.com> > there is none in MA save for lift gates are not toys(trained users) > and they are usually found on class-2 sized trucks. Strange. Here in CA you can find them on anything bigger than a pickup truck. Seems to add about $5/day to the rental rate. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 16:14:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <199903141710.AA05475@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199903141710.AA05475@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990314221403.25685.qmail@brouhaha.com> > VAXen are still sold by Compaq I'm not convinced. I couldn't find any listed as current products on www.digital.com or on www.compaq.com. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 16:15:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <19990314221542.25699.qmail@brouhaha.com> > IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant > that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of > them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and > joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two > functions? Real time clock. I don't recall whether the sixth function was a floppy controller or a second serial port. From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Mar 14 16:18:04 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: classic operating systems References: Message-ID: <36EC359C.C10A6741@halcyon.com> Sure, probably lots of them. To name a couple: Many PDP-11 Unixes and BSD Unixes, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/index.html (a source license costs $100, CD-ROM is ~$5) FreeBSD Unix (descendant of 4.4BSD Unix), see http://www.freebsd.org CP/M (almost complete), see MAIN SITE AT : http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm PRIMARY US MIRROR AT : http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm SECONDARY US MIRROR AT : http://CPM.INTERFUN.NET Heath HDOS for the H-89 used to be available, is it still? I'm sure other list members can chime in with other systems. Dave Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > question: Is there any classic operating system known for which the > complete source code is available ? > > Thanks and regards > John G. Zabolitzky From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 16:19:33 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: (Jgzabol@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <19990314221933.25727.qmail@brouhaha.com> > question: Is there any classic operating system known for which the > complete source code is available ? CP/M. You can download the source, but it's not "Free Software". You have to get a license from Caldera for commercial use. If you don't mind something a bit esoteric, it *might* be possible to convince the people that wrote Apex to release the source. Apex was only "marketed" for the Apple ][, although it was ported to other systems including the Sage/Stride 68000 boxes and even a few models of Macintosh. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 16:22:24 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M Message-ID: <19990314222224.25742.qmail@brouhaha.com> I seem to have misplaced my copies of muMath and muLisp for the Apple II. If anyone would like to sell their old ones to me, please let me know. The CP/M version would also be of interest. If all else fails, I could live with the PC-DOS version, but I don't want Derive (the product that replaced muMath). Thanks! Eric From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Mar 14 16:23:20 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:00 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903142010.AA14481@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > >I saw an IBM 5150 today in a thrift store. The odd thing about it was > >that it had no disk drives! It only had two black covers over the disk > >drive bays. It seems like it came from the factory this way. It is the > >first revision of motherboard with the cassette jack, so its conceivable > >that it was used with a cassette recorder and was always like this. Does > >anyone wish to concur on this? I'm debating if I should get it, but not > >for the $20 they have it tagged for. > > Interesting... I had a machine in one of the piles at work (I have a > second office, called the 'Annex' where I do hardware hacking for my > group on occasion, and stuff gets dumped there) which I recently > excessed, and it had 'IBM-PC' on it, along with 5150 on one of the > labels... But it had a fair amount of memory in it, and a hard disk > drive in it... Should I have saved it and tried to purchase it from > the company? That machine would have the IBM BIOS upgrade in it--IIRC, the upgrade allowed 640K RAM and XT 10 or 20 MB disks (I once knew a guy who had tubes and tubes of the originals back when they were worth something--probably a multi-millionaire by now). It probably also has an upgraded PS as (again, IIRC) the original was only 63 watts--not enough if the slots were maxed out and a hard disk was added to the mix. Wow, what a power-user box that would have been in its day. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Mar 14 17:07:04 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990313163735.00950790@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <199903142307.JAA18149@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 23:39 13/03/99 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Please be carefull when moving heaving equipment. > >Don't trust lift gates to remain remotely level. I've watched or seen the >results of things rolling off, not pretty. I can confirm from very personal experience that an SA482 can make a big hole in the ground... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 14 17:16:23 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 In-Reply-To: <36EC0AF5.11770C6D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > Does anyone know what this computer goes for? When i start it up, the > screen is full of strange characters. I hit the orange button and then > the drive lights go on and the bottom drive light stays on. The prompt > is: Diskette? > I don't have any disks for it. I just picked it up yesterday. What's > wrong with it? How can i fix it? does anyone have any disks for it? What you see is normal behavior for a Model 4. If it has a disk controller, it expects to find an operating system disk to boot from. However, if you hold down the [BREAK] key and cycle the orange button, it will boot into Model III ROM BASIC. Believe it or not, you can still probably get OS disks by special order from your local Radio Shack (though the staff may not know the machine ever existed). You can also get images to create Model 4 disks in a PC disk drive from Tim Mann's web page. http://www.research.digital.com/src/personal/Tim_Mann/trs80.html -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 14 17:24:15 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > question: Is there any classic operating system known for which the > complete source code is available ? Yup. TRSDOS/LSDOS is at Tim Mann's page. And there _was_ CP/M source at Caldera's site, but I haven't looked there lately. Two more years and Linus's original source becomes classic. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 17:15:39 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 References: Message-ID: <36EC431B.B23BCE7C@mindspring.com> "Ward D. Griffiths III" wrote: > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > > Does anyone know what this computer goes for? When i start it up, the > > screen is full of strange characters. I hit the orange button and then > > the drive lights go on and the bottom drive light stays on. The prompt > > is: Diskette? > > I don't have any disks for it. I just picked it up yesterday. What's > > wrong with it? How can i fix it? does anyone have any disks for it? > > What you see is normal behavior for a Model 4. If it has a disk > controller, it expects to find an operating system disk to boot > from. However, if you hold down the [BREAK] key and cycle the > orange button, it will boot into Model III ROM BASIC. Believe it > or not, you can still probably get OS disks by special order from > your local Radio Shack (though the staff may not know the machine > ever existed). You can also get images to create Model 4 disks in > a PC disk drive from Tim Mann's web page. > http://www.research.digital.com/src/personal/Tim_Mann/trs80.html > > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor Thanks for the info and the link! From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 17:20:03 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems Message-ID: <36EC4423.4827BAB3@mindspring.com> When i hit some keys, it displays the wrong letter. Sometimes it displays all caps then all lower case. What's wrong with it? How do i fix it? From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 14 17:33:09 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems In-Reply-To: <36EC4423.4827BAB3@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > When i hit some keys, it displays the wrong letter. Sometimes it > displays all caps then all lower case. What's wrong with it? How do i > fix it? First guess would be that the keyboard has been accumulating dust for a few years and needs cleaning. You'll probably want to clean the disk drives before risking any media as well. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ss at allegro.com Sun Mar 14 17:24:10 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <19990314221046.25642.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199903142324.PAA26201@bart.allegro.com> I remember buying my 5150 with 16 K, no drives, and *both* the CGA and MDA adapters. So how many people know the answer to the trivia question: if you had *both* adapters (and, presumably, two monitors), which one did you have to tell system to default to? (Via a switch/jumper? on the motherboard) :) I financed the PC with IBM, buying the rock bottom miminum system, and the IBM Assembler. Picked it up, drove straight to a garage in south San Jose, and bought a couple of floppies, a controller, RAM chips for the motherboard (48KB, to take it to 64 KB), and a Sigma Designs (?) RAM board (I think) to add more memory. I remember that I had waited until DOS 1.1 came out, because I wasn't comfortable with the patch some people were doing to make DOS 1.0 handle double sided drives. Good thing...when 1.1 came out, it handled the drives in a manner incompatible with the patched version, IIRC. Sadly, the 5150 disappeared when we we burglarized some years ago. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 14:49:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: FS: CBM 8050 drive In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990313223535.009d6100@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Mar 13, 99 10:47:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 917 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/f843e23d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 14:52:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 14, 99 00:24:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/b7d99569/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 16:57:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 14, 99 09:27:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/71e24e6e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 17:01:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 In-Reply-To: <36EC0AF5.11770C6D@mindspring.com> from "bluoval" at Mar 14, 99 02:16:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 950 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/40e25d6a/attachment.ksh From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 17:27:33 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems References: Message-ID: <36EC45E5.82AB1F86@mindspring.com> "Ward D. Griffiths III" wrote: > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > > When i hit some keys, it displays the wrong letter. Sometimes it > > displays all caps then all lower case. What's wrong with it? How do i > > fix it? > > First guess would be that the keyboard has been accumulating dust for a > few years and needs cleaning. You'll probably want to clean the disk > drives before risking any media as well. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor Thanks again. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Mar 14 17:15:02 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin's message of Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:27:59 -0800 (PST) References: Message-ID: <199903142315.PAA06968@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant > that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of > them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and > joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two > functions? #5 was the battery-backed-up real-time clock, and I have this vague recollection that #6 was something not directly on the card but software which used the card, something like a RAMdisk driver. -Frank McConnell From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 17:34:32 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems References: Message-ID: <36EC4788.6254BAD6@mindspring.com> "Ward D. Griffiths III" wrote: > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > > When i hit some keys, it displays the wrong letter. Sometimes it > > displays all caps then all lower case. What's wrong with it? How do i > > fix it? > > First guess would be that the keyboard has been accumulating dust for a > few years and needs cleaning. You'll probably want to clean the disk > drives before risking any media as well. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor Would alcohol damage anything? From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 14 17:53:18 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <36EC4BEE.62854966@rain.org> James Willing wrote: > > Sure 'nuff. The original configuration of the IBM PC had no drives, and 4k > of memory. Diagnostics and a utility or two on Cassette (altho the Jim, are you sure that was 4K of memory? My understanding is that the IBM PC came with a minimum of 16K. The earliest motherboard I have seen was marked 16K - 64K. From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Mar 14 13:25:11 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <00fd01be6e77$f0256a20$e672fea9@office1> On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:35:55 -0500, Steve Robertson wrote: >>The manual for the 1420 has a date of July 1979 on it. The ID tag on the >>terminal indicates that it was manufactured in Greenlawn NY. This building is about a 20 minute drive from my house. It's on Pulaski Road in Greenlawn. The sign outside now says "GEC/Marconi/Hazeltine" and is locally acknowledged as a Superfund site (although I never checked if it made the CERCLA list or not). Place has been there forever and is a pretty unassuming 2-story Government-style office building, but with no fences or razor wire. Looking in, it appears that the interior consists of a cube-farm on the lower floor and some offices on the upper floor. I don't know if there is manufacturing in the rear or not, although it appears overall to be a large building. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 14 18:12:57 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: <01be9e65$9a367be0$d89ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36EC5089.80138FD9@rain.org> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > The other two options could have been a number of things, such as a > HD/floppy controller, a clock/battery, and > > I remember even seeing one that plugged into an expansion slot and the > 8088/8087 sockets. It had a parallel, serial, VGA video (on a separate > backplate - so the thing actually took up two slots), high-density floppy, > IDE HD, clock/battery, and 4 30-pin SIMM sockets. I wish I could find one > of those cards - or find out who made them. Any card that used VGA would come along several years later after the PC was introduced (can't remember off hand what year VGA was first introduced.) Interesting comment about an IDE controller and the SIMM sockets for the PC; I have only heard rumors that an IDE controller was built for the PC, and I have only seen SIMM expansion boards for the 16 bit bus. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 14 18:22:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <199903150022.AA07604@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Hi all, > >question: Is there any classic operating system known for which the >complete source code is available ? > >Thanks and regards >John G. Zabolitzky Depends on how you mean that. Is that freely available, or available at a cost? I believe the source code is available for most DEC OS's including VMS if you want to pay for the license. Some DEC OS's such as RT-11 come with most if not all of the source. Others have already pointed out UNIX and CP/M stuff available. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 14 18:32:43 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <19990314221403.25685.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199903141710.AA05475@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) <199903141710.AA05475@world.std.com> Message-ID: >> VAXen are still sold by Compaq > >I'm not convinced. I couldn't find any listed as current products on >www.digital.com or on www.compaq.com. Hmmm, I know you can get VS4000/90A's for example, I'm pretty sure you can also get a MV3100/96, and a couple other models. I assume a couple of the big ones are also available. However, their days are numbered, and soon they'll only be available on the used market. I can't remember off the top of my head what the date they're going to no longer be available will be. I think it has something to do with thier running out of processors. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fox-1 at aq.nl Sun Mar 14 18:21:48 1999 From: fox-1 at aq.nl (Sysop Fox-1) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks Message-ID: <199903150033.BAA12125@main.it-watch.com> Hello everyone, Last week I bought a pile of hard-sectored 5.25" disks. Most are used, but are still in their original plastic box. Most disks have a lable saying: AES diskette, Single Sided, Single Density. Since I'm an Atari 8-bit freak, I don't have a real use for these, however they can be used on 3/4 of my diskdrives since these do not use the index-hole for anything. Someone in an Atari usegroup asked me to write a msg over here before starting to write Atari-data on them. I have some CP/M's laying around, but they seem to work well without the use of hard-sectored disks too, so.... If someone wants them, I'll swap them for anything ATARI-related. If not, I'll just format them, and write Atari 8-bit data on it. Would be nice if someone could pick them up in the south-part of the Netherlands. I have no idea what it would cost to send them by snailmail, cause I have more then 200 of them. please note: I'm not subscribing to this newsgroup, so Email me at: "fox-1 AT aq DOT nl" Sysop Fox-1, Thunderdome, ATARI 8-Bit BBS, +31 416-279990 (21:00 => 8:00 CET) From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 18:45:08 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <36EC5089.80138FD9@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:12:57 -0800) References: <01be9e65$9a367be0$d89ba6d1@the-general> <36EC5089.80138FD9@rain.org> Message-ID: <19990315004508.26746.qmail@brouhaha.com> > (can't remember off hand what year VGA was first introduced.) Announced in April of 1987 with the PS/2 line. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Mar 14 18:59:13 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <36EC4BEE.62854966@rain.org> References: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990314165913.0103f290@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:53 PM 3/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >James Willing wrote: >> >> Sure 'nuff. The original configuration of the IBM PC had no drives, and 4k >> of memory. Diagnostics and a utility or two on Cassette (altho the > >Jim, are you sure that was 4K of memory? My understanding is that the IBM PC >came with a minimum of 16K. The earliest motherboard I have seen was marked >16K - 64K. Nope... you (and some others who have sent me notes) are correct. I must have been thinking about Apple ][s... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 17:23:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Mar 14, 99 04:57:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 572 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/c1cbce9a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 17:30:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems In-Reply-To: <36EC4423.4827BAB3@mindspring.com> from "bluoval" at Mar 14, 99 06:20:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 908 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990314/1948c210/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 14 19:03:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <199903150022.AA07604@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199903150022.AA07604@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990315010321.26850.qmail@brouhaha.com> Regarding availability of VAXen: > They are still selling them... I only pass the place (Maynard and LKG) > everyday. How does passing their building prove that they still make VAXen (as opposed to Alpha-based hardware)? > Also the OS is still current and planned for future for the > Alpha. No, it has already been available for Alpha for eight years. It's not planned for the future, except in the sense that they are continuing to support it. This still doesn't provide any confirmation that they still make VAXen. However, a little more thorough searching reveals that as of January 25, they still offered: VAXstation 4000 Model 96 MicroVAX 3100 Model 88 MicroVAX 3100 Model 98 VAX 4000 Model 108 VAX 7000 Model 810 (up to six CPUs) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 14 19:05:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903142324.PAA26201@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at Mar 14, 99 03:24:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/cc238d0d/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 14 19:31:10 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? Message-ID: <199903150131.AA19694@world.std.com> >5140 PC convertable (laptop) ? I have several of these... as I mention on my web page (of home systems), it's not so much a portable computer as it is a *luggable* computer... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 14 19:34:17 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: classic operating systems Message-ID: <199903150134.AA21383@world.std.com> >You can get an 'ancient unix' source license for $100. It gets you the >source to unix 7th edtion and earlier for personal use. I *think* it might also give you rights to use 2.11BSD, the most recent BSD for pdp-11s, which also comes with source. Best to contact PUPS to find out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bluoval at mindspring.com Sun Mar 14 19:38:39 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems References: Message-ID: <36EC649F.47579AF3@mindspring.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > When i hit some keys, it displays the wrong letter. Sometimes it > > displays all caps then all lower case. What's wrong with it? How do i > > fix it? > > Is it a keyboard problem or a display problem? Can you give some examples > of what you type and what it displays as? Is it consistent? > > Try typing some BASIC commands, using the right keys (no matter what they > display as for the moment). Do they work (even if displayed incorrectly), > or do you get syntax errors? > > Do characters already on the screen change. In other words will a 'C' on > the screen change to an 'A' or to a 'c' or something like that. If so, > then there's a fault somewhere around the video memory. I have the > schematics for the old version of the Model 4 CPU board somewhere. > > Or is it that the keys generate the wrong characters? Can you type all > the characters you should be able to (even by pressing the wrong keys)? > > -tony Some keys display the wrong character. they don't change when they're already on screen. Sometimes they're caps and sometime not. For example: 'x' sometimes comes out as 'X' then sometimes as 'x'. C displays 'A' or 'a', 3 displays a 1, ect. I tried to clean the keyboard w/ compressed air, but no luck. Any ideas? Thanks Robert From ss at allegro.com Sun Mar 14 19:41:28 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: References: <199903142324.PAA26201@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: <199903150141.RAA12879@bart.allegro.com> Re: > Trivia question in reply : The 5151 monitor was easy to damage by > misprogramming the MDA card because the monitor was missing something. What? Logic to correctly initialize horizontal hold at power-up? (refresh?) From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Mar 14 19:42:08 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M In-Reply-To: <19990314222224.25742.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 14, 99 10:22:24 pm Message-ID: <199903150142.RAA19389@saul10.u.washington.edu> > I seem to have misplaced my copies of muMath and muLisp for > the Apple II. If anyone would like to sell their old ones > to me, please let me know. The CP/M version would also be > of interest. If all else fails, I could live with the > PC-DOS version, but I don't want Derive (the product that > replaced muMath). I didn't know there was an Apple version! I am now more interested in finding a copy than selling one to you. :) However, the CP/M version of MuMath is available from: http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm/ (a very useful site!) I don't know where you can get MuLisp. BTW, do you know anything about how Derive/MuMath/MuLISP are implemented? (general ideas, source code, implementation tricks, etc.) They are very good as small computer-algebra systems. -- Derek From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Mar 14 14:42:15 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903142324.PAA26201@bart.allegro.com> References: <19990314221046.25642.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199903150144.UAA21918@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Mar 99 at 15:24, ss@allegro.com wrote: > I remember buying my 5150 with 16 K, no drives, and *both* > the CGA and MDA adapters. So how many people know the answer > to the trivia question: if you had *both* adapters (and, presumably, > two monitors), which one did you have to tell system to default to? > (Via a switch/jumper? on the motherboard) :) > I'd think the MDA. ISTR that the SIMCA had a software switch to prevent damage to your monitor when using a Hercules card. > I financed the PC with IBM, buying the rock bottom miminum system, > and the IBM Assembler. Picked it up, drove straight to a garage in > south San Jose, and bought a couple of floppies, a controller, RAM > chips for the motherboard (48KB, to take it to 64 KB), and a Sigma > Designs (?) RAM board (I think) to add more memory. I remember > that I had waited until DOS 1.1 came out, because I wasn't > comfortable with the patch some people were doing to make DOS 1.0 > handle double sided drives. Good thing...when 1.1 came out, it > handled the drives in a manner incompatible with the patched > version, IIRC. > > Sadly, the 5150 disappeared when we we burglarized some years > ago. > > I've got 2 5150s (as well as the other 51xx's and monitors) in my collection. One is heavily modified with an Intel 386 Onboard card (TMK Allison also has one on her Leading Edge), memory to 640, a 20 Meg Plus Hardcard and 2 360 fdds. I just acquired a couple of old VGA cards that I'm hoping will work, one has dual 9 and 15 monitor sockets and an external switchblock. Like Allison I'm also looking for the daughter card for the Onboard to bring memory up to 2 meg. BTW Allison, there's a guy in the PS2 mafia who has one. It might be possible to get pin-outs from him. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Mar 14 14:42:16 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <19990314221542.25699.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (cisin@xenosoft.com) Message-ID: <199903150144.UAA21933@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Mar 99 at 22:15, Eric Smith wrote: > > IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant > > that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of > > them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and > > joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two > > functions? > > Real time clock. > > I don't recall whether the sixth function was a floppy controller or > a second serial port. > > Wasn't it a light-pen ? Or is that covered under serial ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Mar 14 19:49:00 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990314175126.30574522@intellistar.net> References: <990313110353.20200677@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990314204014.009ee6c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:51 PM 3/14/99 +0000, Joe said something like: >At 11:03 AM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >>>Since I don't have a class two license, I can't get a truck with a >>>lift gate, >> >>The two aren't mutually exclusive. Several times I've rented a >>lift-gate truck, usually from Budget, to move a machine. Now this >>was always on the West Coast, > > I've rented and driven trucks with lift gates from both Budget and Ryder >in the last three weeks with no problems and nothing but a standard >license. Perhaps you may need a special permit if you're going across state >lines. No permit needed. I took a 15' Ryder/liftgate over to PA to pick up the truckload of DEC gear. I was told of limitations only when I inquired about the 25' truck waiting to be rented. Because of it being above a certain GVW I would need a CDL. I think its' having air brakes were mentioned too as being a limitation for me. I had to maintain a detailed mileage log and pay road use tax when I brought the 15' truck back. Did you Joe? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Mar 14 20:11:16 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: classic operating systems References: <199903150134.AA21383@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36EC6C44.7F283024@halcyon.com> Yup, the $100 license gives you rights to any AT&T PDP-11/16-bit Unix as well as AT&T Unix 32V. This, combined with Berkeley's liberal license gets you rights to any BSD Unix, be it 2.x BSD or 4.x BSD for the VAX, etc. The PDP-11 archive CD-ROM is about $5, and you can get the complete Berkeley archive (less 2.11 BSD, but everything else) for $100. You might be able to get the 4.x BSD software elsewhere for less, but you still have to have the Ancient Unix license or be covered by another AT&T license to get the source code. The only thing you can't get is anything beyond System III (i.e., System III is included), or anything that has another party's (other than Berkeley's) intellectual rights integrated unless that additional party also gives you a license. For example, you probably can't get source code to any version of Xenix because Microsoft and SCO aren't likely to release it. Dave Megan wrote: > > >You can get an 'ancient unix' source license for $100. It gets you the > >source to unix 7th edtion and earlier for personal use. > > I *think* it might also give you rights to use 2.11BSD, the most recent > BSD for pdp-11s, which also comes with source. Best to contact PUPS > to find out... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Mar 14 20:27:13 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: classic operating systems Message-ID: <990314212713.20200777@trailing-edge.com> >question: Is there any classic operating system known for which the >complete source code is available ? What do you mean by "available"? Freely distributable? Hmm, some of the FigForths fall in this category (if you want to call them OS's), and OS/8 is there too. Easily acquired? There are several disassemblies of CP/M-80 and Apple DOS 3.3 floating around in various places, but these aren't the "official" sources - they're a disassembly. The PL/M sources to CP/M-80 are also available, though I've never quite figured out how to go from the PL/M to the executables. You can get the source if you hand over enough $? Sure, lots of minicomputer OS's fall in this category. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Mar 14 20:32:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: classic operating systems Message-ID: <990314213244.20200777@trailing-edge.com> > Some DEC OS's such as RT-11 come with > most if not all of the source. A regular RT-11 distribution comes with source for the monitors and drivers, with most all the comments stripped out. You also get the uncommented macro libraries. You don't get the sources for any except a few of the utilities (*.SAV's). A source kit for RT-11 gets you the commented sources to the monitors, drivers, and utilities. A few things are still missing (MACRO-11 and CREF, mainly because these are now built under VMS.) Believe me, the commented sources are much more interesting! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Mar 14 20:56:06 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems Message-ID: <001001be6e8f$61d859e0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> That depends on how much of it you drink at once. But in moderation It should be ok. Your mileage may vary. I'm not going to sign this one ;) > >Would alcohol damage anything? > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 14 17:38:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M Message-ID: <19990315031231863.AAA198@fuj03> Eric- Check with me next time you're in Denver. I may still have the software somewhere, but I know I had the CP/M-version documents in my hand about a week ago. Dick ---------- > From: Eric Smith > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M > Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 3:22 PM > > I seem to have misplaced my copies of muMath and muLisp for > the Apple II. If anyone would like to sell their old ones > to me, please let me know. The CP/M version would also be > of interest. If all else fails, I could live with the > PC-DOS version, but I don't want Derive (the product that > replaced muMath). > > Thanks! > Eric From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 14 21:33:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: more "stuff" . . . Message-ID: <19990315033251868.AAA210@fuj03> For those individuals interested in HPIB stuff that's unusual, I have an MSC 9305 HPIB ST-506 interface hard disk controller. This product was one I bought in 1981 and never used, but since the hardware and its documentation are in the same place at the moment, I thought I'd see if someone wanted it worse than I do. It has great potential as a data logger or even a traffic recorder. I'm up for a trade, with my target being some sort of fairly simple SBC with resident firmware and documentation. An evaluation board from MOT or somthing on that order would suffice, I think, provided it's functional and documented. regards, Dick ---------- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M > Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 4:38 PM > > Eric- > > Check with me next time you're in Denver. I may still have the software > somewhere, but I know I had the CP/M-version documents in my hand about a > week ago. > > Dick > > ---------- > > From: Eric Smith > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M > > Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 3:22 PM > > > > I seem to have misplaced my copies of muMath and muLisp for > > the Apple II. If anyone would like to sell their old ones > > to me, please let me know. The CP/M version would also be > > of interest. If all else fails, I could live with the > > PC-DOS version, but I don't want Derive (the product that > > replaced muMath). > > > > Thanks! > > Eric From at258 at osfn.org Sun Mar 14 22:14:08 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems In-Reply-To: <36EC4788.6254BAD6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > "Ward D. Griffiths III" wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > > > > When i hit some keys, it displays the wrong letter. Sometimes it > > > displays all caps then all lower case. What's wrong with it? How do i > > > fix it? > > > > First guess would be that the keyboard has been accumulating dust for a > > few years and needs cleaning. You'll probably want to clean the disk > > drives before risking any media as well. > > -- > > Ward Griffiths > > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > Would alcohol damage anything? Just don't drink too much of it..... M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Sun Mar 14 22:19:10 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There wasa also a 5162 PC. We've got a couple of them. Does anyone know how they were set up? full height or half height floppies? Any hard drives? On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship with no > > > > I have heard people talk about a 5150 a few times, where are some good pics > > and specs so I can appear less dumb in the future? > > It's the original (1981-ish) IBM Personal Computer. The other common (for > this group) numbers are : > > 5150 PC > 5151 MDA monitor > 5152 Graphics printer > 5153 CGA monitor > 5154 EGA monitor > 5155 Portable PC (sewing machine style case) > > 5160 PC/XT > 5161 Expansion Chassis > > 5170 PC/AT > > 5140 PC convertable (laptop) ? > > Now why do I remeber the above? > > -tony > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 14 23:35:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990314082157.010fa100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > Sure 'nuff. The original configuration of the IBM PC had no drives, and 4k > of memory. Diagnostics and a utility or two on Cassette (altho the > cassette player was optional?!?). BASIC in the ROM so it could be > programmed... > > Back in the days when a single floppy drive and controller was a (apx. $900 > option) > > Frighteningly enough... I remember selling quite a few of them in that > (cassette only) configuration. Ok, cool. Since I can't bear to let something even remotely odd slip thru my fingers, I went back and got it. I'm start to amass quite an interesting array of items related to quite possibly one of the most uninteresting vintage computers around, the IBM PC. Aside from this, I have the 5151 expansion chassis, the IBM PC joystick, the Diangostic cassette, and other things I can't recall at the moment. I opened this one up just now. I don't know why I missed the network card before, but it seems like this may have been simply a diskless workstation in an educational setting. It has the 64-256KB motherboard, with it seems the full 256KB of socketed RAM (the first 64K being soldered of course). It would have been more interesting if it had the original 16-64KB motherboard, but the covers over the drive bays definitely are authentic IBM as they are backed by a metal plate with brads that hold them in place. The only other card it has is the Hercules graphics adaptor. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 14 23:41:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant > that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of > them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and > joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two > functions? Let's see, real-time clock and bus termination? No, wait, that's S-100 :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 14 23:48:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: Medieval methods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > I'm not so sure. Rapid change defined the 80's and 90's, but a whole class > of basic applications are starting to stabilize, which permits a really > good version to rise to the top. Personally I kind of miss a word processor > that has instantanious response like PIE on my Apple II. Anybody else > remember PIE? Well, I don't know if its the same as Pie Writer, but Pie Writer was a great word processor, and I used to use it exclusively until I got an Apple //e with 80-columns which could run AppleWorks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 14 23:59:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903142315.PAA06968@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 14 Mar 1999, Frank McConnell wrote: > #5 was the battery-backed-up real-time clock, and I have this vague > recollection that #6 was something not directly on the card but > software which used the card, something like a RAMdisk driver. I was joking when I said real-time clock since I thought the PC came with a real-time clock. Is this not the case? Hmm, come to think of it, I guess not since I don't see a battery on the MB of this 5150 here. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 15 00:12:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:01 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems In-Reply-To: <36EC4788.6254BAD6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > Would alcohol damage anything? Not if used carefully. Regular rubbing alcohol is conductive, so if you get it inside the key it will likely cause the key to short. I learned this lesson the hard way. I used to be so good to my beloved Apple //e when I was a kid. Every month I'd wipe down the entire machine, monitor and disk drives with Windex. I'd really scrub the thing and make it sparkle again. I'd also clean any grime that'd accumulated on the keycaps. One day when I was cleaning I noticed the 'A' key was getting a little sticky. So I thought that rubbing alcohol would be a good cleaning agent. So I put a few drops on the key stem and worked it a while until it didn't stick anymore. I turned the machine on and for some reason an 'A' started spewing across the screen. After a few seconds I realized that the alcohol shorted the key. I tried everything to dry that damn key out. I ran a blow dryer on it for 20 minutes to no avail. I stuck a straw up to it and blew through the straw hoping to blow it dry with my own breath but I think that only resulted in spit being introduced into the key, shorting it further. Finally, after I passed out and came to, I decided to unsolder the key as my computer was unusable at this point, since I couldn't type any command that wasn't 'AAAAAAAAAAAAAA..." I then wrote a machine language driver that made the TAB key (which is next to the 'A' on the Apple //e) become the 'A' key. This only worked on DOS 3.3 programs, since I was a pro at hacking DOS 3.3 but wasn't very versed with ProDOS device drivers. After I got sick of that solution, I soldered in two wires where the key used to be that I would touch together to produce an 'A'. After I got sick of that, I soldered in the joystick button of a joystick I'd broken apart. It was a little stiff, and a little higher than the other keys, but it sure beat the hell out of touching two wires together. I lived with that for a while until I ordered a new key from a mail order parts supplier. Unfortunately, the idiots sent me a //gs key! So I sent it back, but I never got my key or my money back. I was now out $4.65 (something like that) plus shipping, which was a lot for a kid with no job and no allowance. So I lived with the joystick key for maybe a year until I finally ordered and got the proper //e key. So the moral of this story is, don't drink rubbing alcohol. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 15 00:44:09 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Medieval methods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> I'm not so sure. Rapid change defined the 80's and 90's, but a whole class >> of basic applications are starting to stabilize, which permits a really >> good version to rise to the top. Personally I kind of miss a word processor >> that has instantanious response like PIE on my Apple II. Anybody else >> remember PIE? > >Well, I don't know if its the same as Pie Writer, but Pie Writer was a >great word processor, and I used to use it exclusively until I got an >Apple //e with 80-columns which could run AppleWorks. That could be it, or a version of it. PIE stood for Programma International Editor. One of the two guys that made up Programma "management" came from RAND where a lot of the notions like insert, gobble, paste, etc were thought up, and one of my friends translated those ideas into 6502 ASM. I think I have versions that work on a 40 column Apple II, as well as special versions for 80 and 132 column boards. When I catalog my Apple II stuff its going to be interesting. No telling what I have squirreled away. From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 15 00:45:17 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: References: <199903142315.PAA06968@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: >I was joking when I said real-time clock since I thought the PC came with >a real-time clock. Is this not the case? Hmm, come to think of it, I >guess not since I don't see a battery on the MB of this 5150 here. Hey, just like the old Apple II, you have Y2K compliant hardware. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Mar 14 19:46:51 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903150648.BAA10833@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Mar 99 at 23:19, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > There wasa also a 5162 PC. We've got a couple of them. Does anyone know > how they were set up? full height or half height floppies? Any hard drives? > > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > >My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship with no > > > > > > I have heard people talk about a 5150 a few times, where are some good pics > > > and specs so I can appear less dumb in the future? > > > > It's the original (1981-ish) IBM Personal Computer. The other common (for > > this group) numbers are : > > > > 5150 PC > > 5151 MDA monitor > > 5152 Graphics printer > > 5153 CGA monitor > > 5154 EGA monitor > > 5155 Portable PC (sewing machine style case) > > > > 5160 PC/XT > > 5161 Expansion Chassis > > > > 5170 PC/AT > > > > 5140 PC convertable (laptop) ? > > > > Now why do I remeber the above? > > > > -tony > > > That one set me searching my books and files. It's an XT 286 Scott Mueller's book has full system architecture specs. 80286 cpu at 6mhz w/0 wait states 640k mem 1.2M 1/2 ht fdd and 20m hdd came standard but it will support an additional 1/2 ht. Either 5 1/4, or 3 1/2 720/1440. Damn ! Another to add to my "stuff" To Tony's list could also be added 3270 PC an XT with 3270 connectivity 5279 ? it's monitor (have one but it's buried) XT 370 giving connectivity to and emulation of the S/370 AT 3270 like the XT model but based on an AT 5144 PC Convertable mono monitor 5145 PC Convertable colour monitor And then at the height of his power the Big Blue God created the mighty PS/2 8580, MCA , and VGA ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 15 00:55:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: Message-ID: <36ECAEC7.90234137@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On 14 Mar 1999, Frank McConnell wrote: > > > #5 was the battery-backed-up real-time clock, and I have this vague > > recollection that #6 was something not directly on the card but > > software which used the card, something like a RAMdisk driver. > > I was joking when I said real-time clock since I thought the PC came with > a real-time clock. Is this not the case? Hmm, come to think of it, I > guess not since I don't see a battery on the MB of this 5150 here. The real IBM PC and XT computers did not have a real time clock built in. There were a number of third party cards that were available that provided a RT clock as well as the stuff already talked about. Some of the clones though did have a real time clock built in along with the associated battery. The HeadStart is one that comes to mind, and I *think* the Leading Edge Model D was another. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Mar 15 01:05:41 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: GRiDPads Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990314230146.58272028@ricochet.net> I've finally got the GRiDPad's I mentioned a while ago -- e-mail me if you're interested. (Basically, working GRiDPad 1910 with case, pen, PS, untested battery for $15 + shipping.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 15 02:23:02 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: PS/2 external storage device cables In-Reply-To: <36ECAEC7.90234137@rain.org> References: Message-ID: I just put these on a newsgroup, and realized somebody here might need them. I found 3 new old stock IBM 23F2716 cables in a box I bought. I think they are for a model 70 external floppy drive, looks like a HDI30 to DB37F, but thats just guessing. $5 each and shipping. From pechter at pechter.ddns.org Sun Mar 14 19:41:20 1999 From: pechter at pechter.ddns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903150134.AA21383@world.std.com> from Megan at "Mar 14, 1999 8:34:17 pm" Message-ID: <199903150141.UAA00503@pechter.ddns.org> > > >You can get an 'ancient unix' source license for $100. It gets you the > >source to unix 7th edtion and earlier for personal use. > > I *think* it might also give you rights to use 2.11BSD, the most recent > BSD for pdp-11s, which also comes with source. Best to contact PUPS > to find out... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer It does... I'm waiting to order it all until I get some drive controllers and disks for my new 11/23's. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.ddns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 05:26:35 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <00fd01be6e77$f0256a20$e672fea9@office1> Message-ID: <36ECEE69.20A3EA89@bigfoot.com> This one is a 1500 and made in Greenlawn, NJ. I suspect (after powering) that it needs either a switch or breaker, one of them is bad. It does get video and sometimes ASCII with a power light and a beeper. Not sure if this is because of no tie to a serial port. The baud switches say that it can go to 19,200 baud. Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:35:55 -0500, Steve Robertson > wrote: > > >>The manual for the 1420 has a date of July 1979 on it. The ID tag on the > >>terminal indicates that it was manufactured in Greenlawn NY. > > This building is about a 20 minute drive from my house. It's on Pulaski > Road in Greenlawn. The sign outside now says "GEC/Marconi/Hazeltine" and is > locally acknowledged as a Superfund site (although I never checked if it > made the CERCLA list or not). Place has been there forever and is a pretty > unassuming 2-story Government-style office building, but with no fences or > razor wire. Looking in, it appears that the interior consists of a cube-farm > on the lower floor and some offices on the upper floor. I don't know if > there is manufacturing in the rear or not, although it appears overall to be > a large building. > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW7 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > <---------------------------- reply separator From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 05:31:31 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 References: Message-ID: <36ECEF91.10A714D7@bigfoot.com> Tandy/Radio Shack can still get the boot disks and not a whole lot less than when they sold new either. Their toll free number is 1-800-THESHACK (I know there's too many numbers, I didn't make it up) Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > > Does anyone know what this computer goes for? When i start it up, the > > screen is full of strange characters. I hit the orange button and then > > the drive lights go on and the bottom drive light stays on. The prompt > > is: Diskette? > > I don't have any disks for it. I just picked it up yesterday. What's > > wrong with it? How can i fix it? does anyone have any disks for it? > > What you see is normal behavior for a Model 4. If it has a disk > controller, it expects to find an operating system disk to boot > from. However, if you hold down the [BREAK] key and cycle the > orange button, it will boot into Model III ROM BASIC. Believe it > or not, you can still probably get OS disks by special order from > your local Radio Shack (though the staff may not know the machine > ever existed). You can also get images to create Model 4 disks in > a PC disk drive from Tim Mann's web page. > http://www.research.digital.com/src/personal/Tim_Mann/trs80.html > > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 05:36:25 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 References: Message-ID: <36ECF0B7.7813E910@bigfoot.com> Well son-of-a-buck I didn't know it would go to mod 3 Basic that way! I had three of the stupid things and no memory from school of the peculiarities of them, no docs or disks either. They sat in storage until I got a boot disk copy and then sold them. One gave it's life on the way to the left coast at the hand of our ever-able UPS (pronounced OOPS) person. Three days after I shipped the one that got busted a woman with a heavy Bostonian accent called me direct looking for one to replace a dead one at Bayer, Inc. Seems they have a processing line or office use for them until they convert. Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Does anyone know what this computer goes for? When i start it up, the > > screen is full of strange characters. I hit the orange button and then > > the drive lights go on and the bottom drive light stays on. The prompt > > is: Diskette? > > I don't have any disks for it. I just picked it up yesterday. What's > > wrong with it? How can i fix it? does anyone have any disks for it? > > There's probably nothing wrong with it. Try holding down the 'break' key > and pressing/releasing 'reset' (the orange button in the top right of the > keyboard). It should now go into BASIC. Answer the 'CASS?' and 'MEMORY > SIZE?' prompts by pressing enter and you can type in BASIC programs. > > There's a disk image of LS-DOS 6.3.1 on Tim Mann's web page. To get it > onto a real disk you can either use one of the PC-based TRS-80 emulators > that can use real disks (xtrs can under linux on a PC) or a little > program I wrote to do this (also under linux). > > -tony From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 05:39:25 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: PS/2 external storage device cables References: Message-ID: <36ECF16B.E8F1A9B3@bigfoot.com> The DB37 work by number of pins, but the only external floppies I've ever seen from IBM for the PS/2 line were the 4869's which had a cable built into them. Too bad you don't have a digital camera or video capture unit to diplay them with. Mike Ford wrote: > I just put these on a newsgroup, and realized somebody here might need > them. I found 3 new old stock IBM 23F2716 cables in a box I bought. I think > they are for a model 70 external floppy drive, looks like a HDI30 to DB37F, > but thats just guessing. $5 each and shipping. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 05:42:51 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems References: <36EC4788.6254BAD6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <36ECF23A.78D48F63@bigfoot.com> Only with power applied. Use denatured (wood) alcohol though as isopropyl 70% leaves a residue sometimes. Of course you need to be careful of coated items, such a stickers, labels, paint and such. It may take some of those off. bluoval wrote: > Would alcohol damage anything? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 15 09:29:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <00fd01be6e77$f0256a20$e672fea9@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990315092934.2fe709c2@intellistar.net> At 02:25 PM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:35:55 -0500, Steve Robertson >wrote: > >>>The manual for the 1420 has a date of July 1979 on it. The ID tag on the >>>terminal indicates that it was manufactured in Greenlawn NY. > > This building is about a 20 minute drive from my house. It's on Pulaski >Road in Greenlawn. The sign outside now says "GEC/Marconi/Hazeltine" and is >locally acknowledged as a Superfund site That's common for places that used to make circuit boards. Almost all of them simply dumped the waste water containing copper, nickel, tim, lead and chromium out the back door. Joe From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 15 07:31:22 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've seen some 5150's from RI State surplus that had one drive and a network card. On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > > Sure 'nuff. The original configuration of the IBM PC had no drives, and 4k > > of memory. Diagnostics and a utility or two on Cassette (altho the > > cassette player was optional?!?). BASIC in the ROM so it could be > > programmed... > > > > Back in the days when a single floppy drive and controller was a (apx. $900 > > option) > > > > Frighteningly enough... I remember selling quite a few of them in that > > (cassette only) configuration. > > Ok, cool. Since I can't bear to let something even remotely odd slip thru > my fingers, I went back and got it. I'm start to amass quite an > interesting array of items related to quite possibly one of the most > uninteresting vintage computers around, the IBM PC. Aside from this, I > have the 5151 expansion chassis, the IBM PC joystick, the Diangostic > cassette, and other things I can't recall at the moment. > > I opened this one up just now. I don't know why I missed the network card > before, but it seems like this may have been simply a diskless workstation > in an educational setting. It has the 64-256KB motherboard, with it seems > the full 256KB of socketed RAM (the first 64K being soldered of course). > It would have been more interesting if it had the original 16-64KB > motherboard, but the covers over the drive bays definitely are authentic > IBM as they are backed by a metal plate with brads that hold them in > place. The only other card it has is the Hercules graphics adaptor. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 15 07:35:58 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903150648.BAA10833@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: Was the 5150 the only one delivered with full-height drives? I've seen both on the 5160, but don't know which is original. On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 14 Mar 99 at 23:19, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > There wasa also a 5162 PC. We've got a couple of them. Does anyone know > > how they were set up? full height or half height floppies? Any hard drives? > > > > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship with no > > > > > > > > I have heard people talk about a 5150 a few times, where are some good pics > > > > and specs so I can appear less dumb in the future? > > > > > > It's the original (1981-ish) IBM Personal Computer. The other common (for > > > this group) numbers are : > > > > > > 5150 PC > > > 5151 MDA monitor > > > 5152 Graphics printer > > > 5153 CGA monitor > > > 5154 EGA monitor > > > 5155 Portable PC (sewing machine style case) > > > > > > 5160 PC/XT > > > 5161 Expansion Chassis > > > > > > 5170 PC/AT > > > > > > 5140 PC convertable (laptop) ? > > > > > > Now why do I remeber the above? > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > > That one set me searching my books and files. > It's an XT 286 Scott Mueller's book has full system architecture specs. > > 80286 cpu at 6mhz w/0 wait states > 640k mem > 1.2M 1/2 ht fdd and 20m hdd came standard but it will > support an additional 1/2 ht. Either 5 1/4, or 3 1/2 > 720/1440. > Damn ! Another to add to my "stuff" > > To Tony's list could also be added > 3270 PC an XT with 3270 connectivity > 5279 ? it's monitor (have one but it's buried) > > XT 370 giving connectivity to and emulation of the S/370 > > AT 3270 like the XT model but based on an AT > > 5144 PC Convertable mono monitor > 5145 PC Convertable colour monitor > > And then at the height of his power the Big Blue God created > the mighty PS/2 8580, MCA , and VGA > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 15 07:42:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990315092934.2fe709c2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > >>>The manual for the 1420 has a date of July 1979 on it. The ID tag on the > >>>terminal indicates that it was manufactured in Greenlawn NY. > > > > This building is about a 20 minute drive from my house. It's on Pulaski > >Road in Greenlawn. The sign outside now says "GEC/Marconi/Hazeltine" and is > >locally acknowledged as a Superfund site > > That's common for places that used to make circuit boards. Almost all of > them simply dumped the waste water containing copper, nickel, tim, lead and > chromium out the back door. The military side of the house was the worst. They also had Telephonics another electronics outfit nearby and they were pretty dirty as well. It's serious there as LI was loaded with defense contractors and most of LI water is wells. On the odd side in late '75 I did some contracting for the terminals group as they were getting productionyeild in the sub 25% rance for the 15xx terminal line. Between faulty burn in of boards and nearly nonexistant QC it was a mess. The upside is if it made it wout the door it was a solid terminal but they were loosing their shirts getting them out the door. When I was done they were up to 80% yeild and climbing. A friend of mine back then did the software for the 1552 and some of the other terminals. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 15 07:45:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Was the 5150 the only one delivered with full-height drives? I've seen > both on the 5160, but don't know which is original. Most all the avaiable drives then were full height but, yes the 5150 use the TM100 and that is full height. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 15 07:50:57 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, it was the 5160 I was curious about. Were they still using the full height drives on them? On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > Was the 5150 the only one delivered with full-height drives? I've seen > > both on the 5160, but don't know which is original. > > Most all the avaiable drives then were full height but, yes the 5150 use > the TM100 and that is full height. > > Allison > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 15 10:14:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: References: <199903150648.BAA10833@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990315101417.41c711ec@intellistar.net> No, The PC and XT both came with FH drives. The XT also came with a FH hard drive. Joe At 08:35 AM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >Was the 5150 the only one delivered with full-height drives? I've seen >both on the 5160, but don't know which is original. > >On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > >> On 14 Mar 99 at 23:19, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >> >> > There wasa also a 5162 PC. We've got a couple of them. Does anyone know >> > how they were set up? full height or half height floppies? Any hard drives? >> > >> > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > > > >> > > > >My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship with no >> > > > >> > > > I have heard people talk about a 5150 a few times, where are some good pics >> > > > and specs so I can appear less dumb in the future? >> > > >> > > It's the original (1981-ish) IBM Personal Computer. The other common (for >> > > this group) numbers are : >> > > >> > > 5150 PC >> > > 5151 MDA monitor >> > > 5152 Graphics printer >> > > 5153 CGA monitor >> > > 5154 EGA monitor >> > > 5155 Portable PC (sewing machine style case) >> > > >> > > 5160 PC/XT >> > > 5161 Expansion Chassis >> > > >> > > 5170 PC/AT >> > > >> > > 5140 PC convertable (laptop) ? >> > > >> > > Now why do I remeber the above? >> > > >> > > -tony >> > > >> > >> >> That one set me searching my books and files. >> It's an XT 286 Scott Mueller's book has full system architecture specs. >> >> 80286 cpu at 6mhz w/0 wait states >> 640k mem >> 1.2M 1/2 ht fdd and 20m hdd came standard but it will >> support an additional 1/2 ht. Either 5 1/4, or 3 1/2 >> 720/1440. >> Damn ! Another to add to my "stuff" >> >> To Tony's list could also be added >> 3270 PC an XT with 3270 connectivity >> 5279 ? it's monitor (have one but it's buried) >> >> XT 370 giving connectivity to and emulation of the S/370 >> >> AT 3270 like the XT model but based on an AT >> >> 5144 PC Convertable mono monitor >> 5145 PC Convertable colour monitor >> >> And then at the height of his power the Big Blue God created >> the mighty PS/2 8580, MCA , and VGA >> >> ciao larry >> lwalker@interlog.com >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Mar 15 08:54:35 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? References: <199903141448.JAA09969@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <36ED1F2A.922E11F2@idirect.com> >Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 13 Mar 99 at 1:11, Buck Savage wrote: > > Larry: > > Given your start in computing in the mid-fifties, you must now be > > in your mid-sixties. I was one who started in the early 70's (as > > early as my 12-th year) and am now 41. The machine was > > an IBM 370/155 with 1MB of main memory, and the language was > > APL (APL*PLUS from Scientific Time Sharing). > Pretty close, I'll begin my 63rd year this summer. I never spent any great > length of time on computers untill the early 80s and then the late 80s till > now. Being closer to it ,you've likely seen much more computing than I. > I did use a slide-rule at college tho. :^)) Jerome Fine adds his $ Can 0.02: While I am a tad shy of the lofty age that Larry has attained (I am now a magic 60 years young), I started with computers back in 1958 when I had a summer job with an insurance company. In 1960, I actually started to write programs and ran the IBM 650 at the University of Toronto when I had dedicated time during the mid-night shift. I can't remember when the IBM 704/709 systems were introduced (never used one - I believe they were built with vacuum tubes), but after trying an IBM 1620 for a while (I used the 1401 as well, but only as an input device for the =>) the University of Toronto acquired an IBM 7094 (a speeded up 7090 which was the transistor equivalent of the 709). The IBM 7094 was used around 1963-65. Naturally, all of the above systems used 80 column punched cards and programs were written, then punched onto the cards which were fed into the systems. The output was punched cards and printed paper. > > Well, it is true that the machines of the 50's were the so called > > Unit Record devices and the low quality mainframes of the day, > > like the 7090, the 1620 (if I get the numbering correct) and the > > 1401 (all of IBM fame). I had the privilege of working with such > > Unit Record devices, and even to have programmed a few of the > > old style plug boards. > > > I am greatful that those days are over! > > > > William R. Buckley > > > Actually, I got a kick out of wiring up plug boards. Tangible logic. > Why I prefer Hardware over Software. I had the opposite reaction. I got a kick out of getting the program to work correctly. Why I prefer Software over Hardware. That is NOT a criticism!! Just a personal preference. I think that part of the reason is that once a program is perfected (small ones can easily be perfected and shown to be perfect), it never goes wrong! But with hardware, the possibility always exists! NOW, I must admit that I have had far more software bugs over the years than hardware bugs and the actual number of hardware bugs on a computer which was supposed to be running has been less than the fingers on one hand. And I have had my share (in the early days when we programmers think we can't do anything wrong) of blaming the hardware when it was my own program that was at fault. In general, if you can't easily prove immediately that the hardware is the problem, then 99.9% of the time it is not. The only time I ever really had a difficult one to figure out was when I shifted from a PDP-11 to a VAX. The program in assembler on the PDP-11 was using the ADD instruction in a non-standard manner. As a result, the overflow and carry bits had an unusual meaning. On the VAX, the result was very slightly different with respect to those bits and the program had to alter the algorithm very slightly as a result. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From william at ans.net Mon Mar 15 09:22:46 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Planning for an equipment move... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990313122323.00de1100@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > Past experience has shown that my 1979 Chevy Surburban will hold 2 fully > loaded H960 racks, plus numerous random other items stuffed in the various > other random spaces quite nicely! B^} 2 KS-10s will fit into a Grand Caravan, but its a TIGHT fit! William Donzelli william@ans.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Mar 15 09:37:49 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: PS/2 external storage device cables Message-ID: In a message dated 15.3.1999 6:44:26 Eastern Standard Time, rhblake@bigfoot.com writes: > Mike Ford wrote: > > > I just put these on a newsgroup, and realized somebody here might need > > them. I found 3 new old stock IBM 23F2716 cables in a box I bought. I > think > > they are for a model 70 external floppy drive, looks like a HDI30 to DB37F, > > > but thats just guessing. $5 each and shipping. After searching for hours, i finally found out what cable this is. It connects the 4869 external floppy to the P70 suitcase PS/2. Not of any use to anyone who doesnt own those two items. david From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 15 10:05:49 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? References: <3.0.1.16.19990315092934.2fe709c2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36ED2FDD.EDEBCC1F@rain.org> Joe wrote: > > >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:35:55 -0500, Steve Robertson > >wrote: > > This building is about a 20 minute drive from my house. It's on Pulaski > >Road in Greenlawn. The sign outside now says "GEC/Marconi/Hazeltine" and is > >locally acknowledged as a Superfund site > > That's common for places that used to make circuit boards. Almost all of > them simply dumped the waste water containing copper, nickel, tim, lead and > chromium out the back door. That might have been true many, many years ago, but my involvement with the mfg of printed circuit boards started in the mid 70's, and that was not the case from that point on. Second, the statement about dumping copper, nickel, etc. is very misleading unless you specify both the amount and the concentrations of the waste chemistry you are talking about. Thirdly, a lot of toxic wastes were *legally* disposed of with all the associated government regulations that the government is now coming back and looking for money to clean up sites they had approved as safe. A favorite saying of mine is "There would be no such thing as the environmental movement were it not for scientific illiteracy." Yes, it is an overstatement, but there is a lot of truth there. From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 15 10:25:00 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: TSR-80 model 4 In-Reply-To: <36ECF0B7.7813E910@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Well son-of-a-buck I didn't know it would go to mod 3 Basic that way! I had > three of the stupid things and no memory from school of the peculiarities of > them, no docs or disks either. They sat in storage until I got a boot disk > copy and then sold them. One gave it's life on the way to the left coast at > the hand of our ever-able UPS (pronounced OOPS) person. Yup, that's why it will boot Model III TRSDOS or LDOS as well as the Model 4 specific OSs. Except for the 4p of course. For that one you need the ROM image (MODELA/III) that came with every 4p (and on the system disk of every TRSDOS6 manufactured after the 4p came out). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 15 10:13:06 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? Message-ID: <01be6efe$b6085320$d2c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin >of toxic wastes were *legally* disposed of with all the associated >government regulations that the government is now coming back and looking >for money to clean up sites they had approved as safe. A favorite saying of >mine is "There would be no such thing as the environmental movement were it >not for scientific illiteracy." Yes, it is an overstatement, but there is That resonates well with one of my favorites: If you add a drop of wine to a barrell of shit, you have a barrell of shit. If you add a drop of shit to a barrell of wine, you have a barrell of shit. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Mar 15 10:45:30 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Yesterday's hamfest & manual FT Message-ID: <199903151643.IAA02842@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Yesterday's snow kept all but about 8 tailgaters from coming to the York Springfest, resulting in a rather dissapointing show. I managed to get an Apple IIe for $2, an IBM Model 25 for $5, and a bunch of manuals (including some for the IBM System/36), but that was about it. I got two copies of "IBM Maintenance Library - 3278 Display Station Models 1,2,3,and 4 Maintenance Information". Anybody want the second one ($5 shipped), or wish to trade for it (intersted in books on interfacing the Apple II)? I also purchased a book called "Master Transistor/IC Substitution Handbook. A GIANT one-stop, easy-to-use manual that gives you commonly available replacements for over 80,000 U.S. and foreign tranistors and ICs...plus basing diagrams." (c)1977, 517 pages. Looks like it could be a useful reference, if the the replacement part numbers are still up to date. If somebody _really_ has a use for this book, let me know. Tom Owad From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 15 11:43:09 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: <199903131918.AA19720@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903151644.RAA01194@horus.mch.sni.de> > I never put a "good old" or "bad old" sticker as that was where things > were and even then it was clear the target was a fast moving one. But thats just simple - everything we survived is good old (sometimes it takes a bit more time until we call it this way our self) - and everything else just doesn't happen :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 15 11:25:27 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903150144.UAA21933@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: Light pen interface was built in on the video board. Both CGA and MDP (Monochrome Display and Printer) boards had it. But IBM didn't sell a light pen, largely because the long persistence phosphor of the IBM monochrome monitor made it unusable. Clock and calendar were not on the motherboard until the AT. MS-DOS would ask for DATE and TIME unless you had an AUTOEXEC.BAT file. Unless you told it otherwise, it assumed that the date was 1/1/80. Multifunction cards with disk controller, or video came much later. (~85) The remaining "functions" to fill out the claimed numbers were software in the box. Usually a RAM disk program and a print spooler. Thus, a typical "SIX function" muyltifunction board would consist of Clock/calendar, memory, serial, parallel, and two programs. From Jgzabol at aol.com Mon Mar 15 11:32:34 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: classic operating systems Message-ID: Hi all, thank you for the extensive replies. What I meant was "available for a reasonable price", which is not more than a few hundred $ in my mind, so the PUPS offering really appeals to me most. Thanks and regards John G. Zabolitzky From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 15 12:13:16 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903150022.AA07826@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903151813.KAA08340@civic.hal.com> Hi Although, not specifically an operating system, Forth can be used as an operating system. The normal disk I/O can be easily expanded to include file systems. Many tools for all kinds of things have been done in Forth. Examples: editors, assemblers, compilers, spread sheets, etc. If you have an old system with no OS, Forth is always an option. Implementing Forth on a machine is one of the few things I've always felt was something that didn't take a company staff to do. Once the basic core was implemented, one could expand it to whatever one wanted. I've done several over the years. Dwight From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Mon Mar 15 12:10:53 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? In-Reply-To: References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990315101053.007ad7b0@peseta.ucdavis.edu> At 10:14 AM 3/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >>What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any >>... > >The PDPs were DEC's series of processors. The PDP-8 and -11 were most >successful. The processors were used in a wide variety of machines. The >VAX is DEC's first 32-bit machine. It used an OS called VMS, which some >people like a lot for some reason, to the point of still using it. The reason some people like, and still use, VMS is because it is an industrial strength operating system, just like big IBM mainframe operating systems. It is extremely reliable, robust, predictable, well documented, easy to use, dependable, stable and well supported. A VMS system will run for many months, even years, without crashing and when it does, it is usually a hardware problem. It has one other feature no operating system has yet, true clustering. You can grow huge systems modularly and only have to maintain one system disk. >I heard that NT has a lot of VMS engineers behind it. This statement might be somewhat true. After M-Squish designed NT, they hired one of the VMS gurus from DEC and while there have been many modifications to NT to add more VMS like features, it has one giant drawback, the underlying operating system is UNIX based, the Mach kernel. Therefore, they have not been able to implement a true clustering system and IMHO because the DEC software engineers came late to the game, they were unable to design the basic reliability into the operating system software interfaces. NT servers usually crash regularly, i.e. in less than a week, sometimes several times a day, especially if anyone is doing development work on them. Another drawback to NT is that many software upgrades and application installation/deinstallations require rebooting, something unheard of with VMS. -- Dean From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 15 12:52:54 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903151813.KAA08340@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 15, 99 10:13:16 am Message-ID: <199903151852.KAA12198@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/5c251f94/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 15 13:03:20 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: PS/2 external storage device cables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In a message dated 15.3.1999 6:44:26 Eastern Standard Time, >rhblake@bigfoot.com writes: > >> Mike Ford wrote: >> >> > I just put these on a newsgroup, and realized somebody here might need >> > them. I found 3 new old stock IBM 23F2716 cables in a box I bought. I >> think >> > they are for a model 70 external floppy drive, looks like a HDI30 to >DB37F, >> >> > but thats just guessing. $5 each and shipping. > >After searching for hours, i finally found out what cable this is. It connects >the 4869 external floppy to the P70 suitcase PS/2. Not of any use to anyone >who doesnt own those two items. I guess thats how you get "super" in your name. ;) Further guess is that these cables will make three owners of PS/2 P70 luggables very happy. Being on the other end of a weird cable hunt was no fun for me, and I ended paying $20 for what I found. The important thing to me is that things like these cables don't get tossed for lack of finding the right person. From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Mar 15 13:14:14 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: List Transactions Message-ID: Before we mount a full-scale Salem Witch hunt... allow me to say that I have had many pleasant dealings with my friends on this list, and other lists... the percentage of deals gone sour has been very low. Andrew Carnegie said: "It is better to be occasionally cheated, than forever suspicious.." And I can confess that there a few Nice People here on Classicmp to whom I have promised to send various items; the promise still exists but I have flaked out so far. Sorry Eric, Dave, Megan, Ian, .... :] (In my defense: absolutely *no money* is involved in these deals, most I am even shipping myself. And packing. And lugging..) If I have sent you money, and you cannot complete your end of it for some reason... send me the money back. Or tell me *when* you can complete the deal. Or offer me something else I might want. Or at least **tell** me that the item(s) and my money are no longer available, and why that is so. Shit happens....at least give me the true info and let me see what I can do. But disappearing with someone else's funds is.. theft. That's all. Confess your sins! Con-feesss you sins!! con-fesss your siiiins!!! Or we shall torture you wiiiithhhh... The COMFY CHAIR!!!!! Cheers John From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 15 13:57:23 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903151852.KAA12198@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199903151957.LAA08377@civic.hal.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > :: Although, not specifically an operating system, Forth > ::can be used as an operating system. The normal disk > > Is there a good introduction to Forth anywhere? Web preferred. Hi A good place to start would be: http://www.forth.org/fig.html You can also ask questions of me and I'll help if I understand what it is you need. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 15 13:59:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M In-Reply-To: <199903150142.RAA19389@saul10.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:42:08 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903150142.RAA19389@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990315195945.32281.qmail@brouhaha.com> I asked about buying a copy of muMath for the Apple ][. Derek Peschel replied: > I didn't know there was an Apple version! I am now more interested in > finding a copy than selling one to you. :) Great. Thanks. :-) The Apple ][ version came with its own operating system, ADIOS (Apple Disk I/O System). It was a CP/M-like OS but ran on the 6502 (no Z-80 card required). According to one of the authors, the the Apple ][ versions of muMath and muSimp were created by taking the interpreter source code for the 8086 version, and doing a translation of each 8086 instruction into a sequence of 6502 instructions. The 8086 registers were in the 6502's zero page. As you might expect, this approach didn't exactly yield blazing speed. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 14:14:41 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: PS/2 external storage device cables References: Message-ID: <36ED6A2F.30F255AC@bigfoot.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 15.3.1999 6:44:26 Eastern Standard Time, > rhblake@bigfoot.com writes: > > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > I just put these on a newsgroup, and realized somebody here might need > > > them. I found 3 new old stock IBM 23F2716 cables in a box I bought. I > > think > > > they are for a model 70 external floppy drive, looks like a HDI30 to > DB37F, > > > > > but thats just guessing. $5 each and shipping. > > After searching for hours, i finally found out what cable this is. It connects > the 4869 external floppy to the P70 suitcase PS/2. Not of any use to anyone > who doesnt own those two items. > > david And I just located it too and now I want one!. That's the only thing missig from our 3 P70's including the one I've converted to a 486. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 15 14:21:06 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990315101053.007ad7b0@peseta.ucdavis.edu> (message from Dean Billing on Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:10:53 -0800) References: <01be6d06$29c41420$e58ea6d1@the-general> <3.0.3.32.19990315101053.007ad7b0@peseta.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <19990315202106.32498.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dean Billing wrote: > After M-Squish designed NT, they hired one of the VMS gurus from DEC No, they weren't *that* stupid. They hired him at let him design it. The actual operating system deep in the bowels of Windows NT isn't so bad. But they have lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it to keep you from seing anything that might be simple and elegant. > and while there have been many > modifications to NT to add more VMS like features, it has one giant > drawback, the underlying operating system is UNIX based, the Mach kernel. No, it isn't. The underlying operating system is nothing like Unix, and only vaguely like Mach (which are themselves two entirely different things). However, as a "normal" Windows programmer (for the Win32 subsystem), you can't even get to the operating system. You can only call the Win32 layer. > Therefore, they have not been able to implement a true clustering system > and IMHO because the DEC software engineers came late to the game, they > were unable to design the basic reliability into the operating system > software interfaces. Again, that's not the fault of the kernel. The kernel is pretty good. The problem is the leventy-seven layers of crap above it. And the I/O architecture is even OK, but unfortunately you end up with hundreds of device drivers written by bozos running at ring zero, so naturally the system isn't as robust as it should be. DEC was in complete control of the VAX, so most VMS sites didn't run any drivers that were written by clueless morons. But the worst problem with NT, and where the majority of the failures are caused, is that for performance reasons starting with NT 3.5 (or was it 3.51?) the moved the entire graphics subsystem (GDI) into kernel space. NT immediately took a huge reliability hit. > NT servers usually crash regularly, i.e. in less than > a week, sometimes several times a day, especially if anyone is doing > development work on them. Um, what do you mean by "doing development work on them"? If you want a file server to be as robust as possible, it should be used for nothing but serving files. That was true even in the old days. Nowdays people load all kinds of crap on their NT file server. It's no wonder the things fall over every few days. Of course, if NT didn't have the problems discussed above, it should have been able to go weeks or months without falling over. > Another drawback to NT is that many software > upgrades and application installation/deinstallations require rebooting, > something unheard of with VMS. This problem is definitely a matter of poor design. I'm pretty sure this one is also not the fault of the kernel, but of the leventy-seven layers of crap above it. The programmers were too lazy and/or in too much of a hurry to bother to figure out how to make changes without rebooting. Note that all of my claims about NT architecture can be verified by reading "Inside Windows NT". Except for moving GDI into the Kernel, which happened later. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 15 14:26:57 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M In-Reply-To: <19990315195945.32281.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 15, 99 07:59:45 pm Message-ID: <199903152026.MAA13458@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/0cb76996/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 12:31:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903150134.AA21383@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 14, 99 08:34:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/df23eac9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 12:35:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: TSR-80 Model 4 keyboard problems In-Reply-To: <36EC649F.47579AF3@mindspring.com> from "bluoval" at Mar 14, 99 08:38:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/050aad1e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 12:28:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903150144.UAA21933@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Mar 14, 99 08:42:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 917 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/0d4d477d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 12:39:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <199903150141.RAA12879@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at Mar 14, 99 05:41:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/3c4d72ca/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 13:37:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Mar 14, 99 11:19:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/f7947aa6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 13:38:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 14, 99 09:59:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/912ea18c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 14:08:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Mar 15, 99 08:35:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/bff5e39e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 14:10:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Mar 15, 99 08:50:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/e6992bd0/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 15 14:44:10 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe we have one 5160 with full height drives, and one with half height. I don't think either boots properly. Now at least we can get them cosmetically cleaned up. As I recall they both seem to poll both drives at once, or something weird like that. Shortly after I looked at them, we lost power due to renovations, and that was 18 months ago. I'll have to start all over again. On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Actually, it was the 5160 I was curious about. Were they still using the > > full height drives on them? > > Yes. I have a 5160 in front of me here with official IBM-badged drives > that I believe to be original. And a couple more similar machines upstairs. > All are full-height Tandon mechanisms. > > -tony > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 14:57:05 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:02 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: Message-ID: <36ED7420.B0DD72E0@bigfoot.com> Early 5160 XT's used the fulls, then they came out with direct drive (as opposed to belt drive) half height drives and a blanker that filled in the empty spot in case you didn't use 2 floppies in that bay. I had a 5160 with 2 factory full height drives around, may still. Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Actually, it was the 5160 I was curious about. Were they still using the > full height drives on them? > > On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > > Was the 5150 the only one delivered with full-height drives? I've seen > > > both on the 5160, but don't know which is original. > > > > Most all the avaiable drives then were full height but, yes the 5150 use > > the TM100 and that is full height. > > > > Allison > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 15:09:39 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: <199903150648.BAA10833@smtp.interlog.com> <3.0.1.16.19990315101417.41c711ec@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36ED7712.C56FF9AB@bigfoot.com> Joe wrote: > No, The PC and XT both came with FH drives. The XT also came with a FH hard > drive. There were variants all over. I have one that is shipping soon that has a Seagate ST-225 (half high) but has a full height faceplate, with IBM molded into it. I've also had XT's with factory HH floppies. Either you had a stack of 2 ith a trim ring, or one with a lower blanking bay and trim ring. Many of the ones with HH units seem to be the later part of production though. RTC's usually came on aftermarket cards on PC and XT machines, even on the Sanyo MBC-55x series. No need to add a battery if there was no need to backup setup info, right? Sell 'em another expensive board right? That's the ticket, and they'll believe that we're doing it all for them. I still say that someone created this modular thing as a convenience, and then used it to slowly drain you. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 15 15:46:31 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903151957.LAA08377@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 15, 99 11:57:23 am Message-ID: <199903152146.NAA12130@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/8b53649d/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 15 15:58:10 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903152146.NAA12130@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 15, 99 01:46:31 pm Message-ID: <199903152158.NAA12276@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/aa357775/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 15 16:14:52 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903152146.NAA12130@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::> Is there a good introduction to Forth anywhere? Web preferred. > :: > ::http://www.forth.org/fig.html > > Hmm, but that seems more a collection of links. I found a few papers > but they assumed some Forth knowledge already, which I don't have (I > don't even know the basic syntax). Any help appreciated :-) I'm pretty sure the Forth Primer link on the literature page should be a pretty good start, though it's been several years since I referred to it. It's not on-line html, though. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 15 16:33:33 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <19990315202106.32498.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 15 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >The actual operating system deep in the bowels of Windows NT isn't so >bad. But they have lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it to keep >you from seing anything that might be simple and elegant. Of course, the kernel can't be blamed for much of anything. I'm sure that if Microsoft got its hands on VMS source code, they would mess it up, while if DEC got its hands on NT source code, they would make something wonderful out of it... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 15 16:36:51 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903152146.NAA12130@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199903151957.LAA08377@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 15, 99 11:57:23 am Message-ID: >::> :: Although, not specifically an operating system, Forth >::> ::can be used as an operating system. The normal disk >::> >::> Is there a good introduction to Forth anywhere? Web preferred. >:: >::http://www.forth.org/fig.html > >Hmm, but that seems more a collection of links. I found a few papers >but they assumed some Forth knowledge already, which I don't have (I >don't even know the basic syntax). Any help appreciated :-) Easy, Forth is kind of like APL. I forget the details and how variables were handled, but its basically like this; Fraggle; defined as some sequence of code. Rraggle; defined as some other sequence. Then in your program you could define Graggle Fraggle Rraggle End Graggle ...................... Anything you define gets executed when the name is referenced. I used to forth around a bit on a AIM65. Rockwell was big into Forth at least for a bit. Dandy control language IMNSHO. From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 15 17:02:00 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903152146.NAA12130@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199903152302.PAA08405@civic.hal.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: Several primers on: http://www.forth.org/literature.html or you could try: http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/ under languages > Forth Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 15 17:09:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <01be9f28$5883e660$fa8ea6d1@the-general> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <01be9f28$5883e660$fa8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <19990315230916.976.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jason Willgruber" asks: > Wasn't a 5 or 10 MB FH HD available for the PC? Not from IBM. The 63 W power supply in the PC was not really adequate for a hard drive. Several people I knew bought aftermarket hard drives and had their power supplies fail. IBM put a higher-rated supply into the XT so that it could reliably support a hard drive. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 15 17:10:39 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:33:33 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990315231039.985.qmail@brouhaha.com> Max Eskin wrote: > while if DEC got its hands on NT source code, they would make something > wonderful out of it... DEC did have their hands on NT source code; they worked jointly with Microsoft on the port to the Alpha. But you can't polish a turd. From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Mon Mar 15 17:13:03 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. Message-ID: <199903152313.PAA26771@pop2.ucdavis.edu> At 08:21 PM 3/15/99 -0000, you wrote: >Dean Billing wrote: >> After M-Squish designed NT, they hired one of the VMS gurus from DEC > >No, they weren't *that* stupid. They hired him at let him design it. >The actual operating system deep in the bowels of Windows NT isn't so >bad. This doesn't sound right to me. I guess there are so many legends about the NT design team that we would have to name each person and understand their contribution. Very early on, when NT betas were being distributed free, and I got one of them, the lore going around that NT core was canabalized from the new Mach kernel. Later, I heard that one of the VMS gurus was hired by MS. I find it very difficult to believe that they would hire a DEC VMS guru before NT was cast in iron and then "...let him design it." If NT was based, even loosely, on the Mach kernel, why would they hire a VMS guru? Why not a Mach kernel guru? >But they have lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it to keep >you from seing anything that might be simple and elegant. Every operating system today has "...lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it..." including UNIX with an X client and then applications or AIX with SMIT on top of an X client or even VMS. >> ... >No, it isn't. The underlying operating system is nothing like Unix, and >only vaguely like Mach (which are themselves two entirely different things). OK, but isn't the general end result of using the Mach kernel, a UNIX system? >However, as a "normal" Windows programmer (for the Win32 subsystem), you >can't even get to the operating system. You can only call the Win32 >layer. VMS protects itself in the same way. If you are writing well behaved applications, you can only make VMS system calls, even if you are writing drivers. >> Therefore, they have not been able to implement a true clustering system >> and IMHO because the DEC software engineers came late to the game, they >> were unable to design the basic reliability into the operating system >> software interfaces. > >Again, that's not the fault of the kernel. The kernel is pretty good. The >problem is the leventy-seven layers of crap above it. I believe it is the fault of the kernel, for without a kernel with a built in distributed lock manager, you can't implement true clustering. You get something like IBM AIX with HACMP which is a "...lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it." to simulate a "cluster" in a UNIX environment, except you have a system disk on each CPU which must be synchronized with every other system disk. >And the I/O architecture is even OK, but unfortunately you end up with >hundreds of device drivers written by bozos running at ring zero, so >naturally the system isn't as robust as it should be. DEC was in complete >control of the VAX, so most VMS sites didn't run any drivers that were >written by clueless morons. This is surely not the case of sites that used VAXen for process control, which was a primary feature of VMS in the early days; VMS being an extension of RSX-11. DEC also has documentation to write drivers properly, as I would assume MicroSoft does for NT. I doubt whether all of the problems with NT are bad drivers written by our local " ... clueless morons." ... since we don't do that, and our NT systems still crash frequently. > ... >Um, what do you mean by "doing development work on them"? I mean doing any kind of application software development work simultaneously with using it for a server, which is what we do every day on our VAXcluster and IBM RS/6000 UNIX servers. >If you want a file server to be as robust as possible, it should be used for >nothing but serving files. That was true even in the old days. That would be news to any large VMS or IBM mainframe shop. >Nowdays people load all kinds of crap on their NT file server. It's no >wonder the things fall over every few days. We have loaded all kinds of applications and third party software on our VAXcluster, from Interleaf, Sapiens, Oracle, MEC, and others and it has never crashed except during hardware failures which have ocurred every few years. >Of course, if NT didn't have the problems discussed above, it should have >been able to go weeks or months without falling over. > >> Another drawback to NT is that many software >> upgrades and application installation/deinstallations require rebooting, >> something unheard of with VMS. > >This problem is definitely a matter of poor design. I'm pretty sure this >one is also not the fault of the kernel, but of the leventy-seven layers >of crap above it. The programmers were too lazy and/or in too much of a >hurry to bother to figure out how to make changes without rebooting. Agreed. -- Dean =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dean Billing Phone: 530-752-5956 UC Davis FAX: 530-752-6363 IT-CR EMAIL: drbilling@ucdavis.edu One Shields Way Davis, CA 95616 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 17:10:01 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: Message-ID: <36ED9347.6B3EB4E3@bigfoot.com> Check the DS jumpers and the cable. Sounds like the controller thinks both are A:, or the cable is reversed. The end with the "twists" (pins 10-16 I think) should be on the A: drive, not on the controller. I've found a few "bad" machines that supposed experts have worked on done in reverse. Also a foam swab and denatured alcohol on the heads cleans them up rather well. Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I believe we have one 5160 with full height drives, and one with half > height. I don't think either boots properly. Now at least we can get > them cosmetically cleaned up. As I recall they both seem to poll both > drives at once, or something weird like that. Shortly after I looked at > them, we lost power due to renovations, and that was 18 months ago. I'll > have to start all over again. > > On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Actually, it was the 5160 I was curious about. Were they still using the > > > full height drives on them? > > > > Yes. I have a 5160 in front of me here with official IBM-badged drives > > that I believe to be original. And a couple more similar machines upstairs. > > All are full-height Tandon mechanisms. > > > > -tony > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 17:11:45 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: <01be9f28$5883e660$fa8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36ED93AF.FCB8CADB@bigfoot.com> Dependant upon the controller, all sorts of drives would ork, including IDE later - as long as the controller was an 8 bit with it's own bios. Jason Willgruber wrote: > Wasn't a 5 or 10 MB FH HD available for the PC? > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:11 AM > Subject: Re: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? > > >No, The PC and XT both came with FH drives. The XT also came with a FH hard > >drive. > > > > Joe > > > >At 08:35 AM 3/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>Was the 5150 the only one delivered with full-height drives? I've seen > >>both on the 5160, but don't know which is original. > >> > >>On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > >> > >>> On 14 Mar 99 at 23:19, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >>> > >>> > There wasa also a 5162 PC. We've got a couple of them. Does anyone > >know > >>> > how they were set up? full height or half height floppies? Any hard > >drives? > >>> > > >>> > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >My understanding is that some of the very first 5150s did ship > >with no > >>> > > > > >>> > > > I have heard people talk about a 5150 a few times, where are some > >good pics > >>> > > > and specs so I can appear less dumb in the future? > >>> > > > >>> > > It's the original (1981-ish) IBM Personal Computer. The other common > >(for > >>> > > this group) numbers are : > >>> > > > >>> > > 5150 PC > >>> > > 5151 MDA monitor > >>> > > 5152 Graphics printer > >>> > > 5153 CGA monitor > >>> > > 5154 EGA monitor > >>> > > 5155 Portable PC (sewing machine style case) > >>> > > > >>> > > 5160 PC/XT > >>> > > 5161 Expansion Chassis > >>> > > > >>> > > 5170 PC/AT > >>> > > > >>> > > 5140 PC convertable (laptop) ? > >>> > > > >>> > > Now why do I remeber the above? > >>> > > > >>> > > -tony > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> That one set me searching my books and files. > >>> It's an XT 286 Scott Mueller's book has full system architecture specs. > >>> > >>> 80286 cpu at 6mhz w/0 wait states > >>> 640k mem > >>> 1.2M 1/2 ht fdd and 20m hdd came standard but it will > >>> support an additional 1/2 ht. Either 5 1/4, or 3 1/2 > >>> 720/1440. > >>> Damn ! Another to add to my "stuff" > >>> > >>> To Tony's list could also be added > >>> 3270 PC an XT with 3270 connectivity > >>> 5279 ? it's monitor (have one but it's buried) > >>> > >>> XT 370 giving connectivity to and emulation of the S/370 > >>> > >>> AT 3270 like the XT model but based on an AT > >>> > >>> 5144 PC Convertable mono monitor > >>> 5145 PC Convertable colour monitor > >>> > >>> And then at the height of his power the Big Blue God created > >>> the mighty PS/2 8580, MCA , and VGA > >>> > >>> ciao larry > >>> lwalker@interlog.com > >>> > >> > >>M. K. Peirce > >>Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >>215 Shady Lea Road, > >>North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >> > >>"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > >> > >> - Ovid > >> > >> > > > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 15 17:16:13 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? References: Message-ID: <36ED94BB.E8D8DE9@bigfoot.com> The light pen was generally asociated with the video card until EGA came along. Most dropped the light pen connector. One of the "multifunctions" of the 6 was real time clock. AST's SixPak has added memory, RTC, 2 serial ports (one is socketed for optional UART and driver chips), parallel and joystick (I think joytick, my brain hurts today). Tony Duell wrote: > > > > IBM's braindead decision to have 5 (instead of 8) expansion slots meant > > > > that aftermarket "multifunction" cards became quite popular. MANY of > > > > them advertised SIX functions; after memory, serial, parallel, and > > > > joystick, how many people remember what purported to be the other two > > > > functions? > > [...] > > > Wasn't it a light-pen ? Or is that covered under serial ? > > I would be _very_ suprised if that was the case. The easiest way to > implement a light pen is to use the signal from the light pen sensor to > latch the current video refresh address on the video card. The 6845 chip > (used on the CGA nad MDA cards) has an input just for this. And on both > of those cards that input is wired to a little header plug, to connect to > a light pen. > > Trying to build a lightpen on anything other than a video card would seem > to be insane... > > > > > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com > > > > -tony From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 15 19:27:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: Hazeltine? In-Reply-To: <36ED2FDD.EDEBCC1F@rain.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19990315092934.2fe709c2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990315192707.2de7c460@intellistar.net> Marvin, I'm not sure what you're getting at but I know from first hand knowledge that many companies were still dumping those chemicals well into the early 80s. But that's not the point, we were talking about Hazeltine and they've been in business since at least the early fifties. That's when the USAF bought the Hazeltine equipment that I used to work on. Second, the statement about dumping copper, nickel, >etc. is very misleading unless you specify both the amount and the >concentrations of the waste chemistry you are talking about. Misleading? All of those are toxic in anything above trace amounts. That's why the Hazeltine factory is now a superfund site. For example, the human requirement of copper is only 3 milligrams per day, even low levels above that are toxic. Thirdly, a lot >of toxic wastes were *legally* disposed of with all the associated >government regulations that the government is now coming back and looking >for money to clean up sites they had approved as safe. That's all too true. The government has known about the hazards of most of this stuff for a LONG time before they ever took action to stop it being dumped. The last place that I worked used a lot of Beryllium. I studied it's health hazards of as part of my job. I was very surprised to find an old US government report that stated that Beryllium had been in wide spread use since the 1930s and was generally considered safe, but that right after WWII they finally studied it's health effects and found that it was one of the most toxic substances known. Despite the fact that the US government knew of it's hazards, we were never warned of it. We were still machining it, grinding it, polishing it, etc etc etc with no precautions AND dumping it in the early '90s. Joe At 08:05 AM 3/15/99 -0800, wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:35:55 -0500, Steve Robertson >> >wrote: >> > This building is about a 20 minute drive from my house. It's on Pulaski >> >Road in Greenlawn. The sign outside now says "GEC/Marconi/Hazeltine" and is >> >locally acknowledged as a Superfund site >> >> That's common for places that used to make circuit boards. Almost all of >> them simply dumped the waste water containing copper, nickel, tim, lead and >> chromium out the back door. > >That might have been true many, many years ago, but my involvement with the >mfg of printed circuit boards started in the mid 70's, and that was not the >case from that point on. Second, the statement about dumping copper, nickel, >etc. is very misleading unless you specify both the amount and the >concentrations of the waste chemistry you are talking about. Thirdly, a lot >of toxic wastes were *legally* disposed of with all the associated >government regulations that the government is now coming back and looking >for money to clean up sites they had approved as safe. A favorite saying of >mine is "There would be no such thing as the environmental movement were it >not for scientific illiteracy." Yes, it is an overstatement, but there is a >lot of truth there. > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 15 17:31:58 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <19990315231039.985.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 15, 99 11:10:39 pm Message-ID: <199903152331.PAA10994@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 525 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/520de9cd/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 15 17:46:44 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <199903152313.PAA26771@pop2.ucdavis.edu> (message from Dean Billing on Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:13:03 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903152313.PAA26771@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <19990315234644.1271.qmail@brouhaha.com> > This doesn't sound right to me. I guess there are so many legends about the > NT design team that we would have to name each person and understand their > contribution. Very early on, when NT betas were being distributed free, and > I got one of them, the lore going around that NT core was canabalized from > the new Mach kernel. Later, I heard that one of the VMS gurus was hired by > MS. I find it very difficult to believe that they would hire a DEC VMS guru > before NT was cast in iron and then "...let him design it." If NT was > based, even loosely, on the Mach kernel, why would they hire a VMS guru? > Why not a Mach kernel guru? Because it *isn't* based on Mach. Which part of that is hard to understand? The historical record of this is fairly well documented. > Every operating system today has "...lventy-seven layers of crap on top of > it..." including UNIX with an X client and then applications or AIX with > SMIT on top of an X client or even VMS. Most OSes don't have nearly as many layers of crap as NT. I am intimately familiar with the operation of most of the software on my Linux box, including the X server and several of the clients, and there just aren't that many layers. But at a former job I had to do porting of ATM stuff to NT and 95, and there are layers upon layers of crap, for no especially good reason. It's just a result of Microsoft's "Mongolian hordes" programming technique. It was just about enough to make me sick. > OK, but isn't the general end result of using the Mach kernel, a UNIX system? No. There are some "UNIX servers" that can be run on top of Mach, but Mach is not UNIX. > VMS protects itself in the same way. If you are writing well behaved > applications, you can only make VMS system calls, even if you are writing > drivers. Yes, but in Win32, you *can't* make OS calls. You can only make Win32 calls. It's an extra layer of mostly useless crap. > I believe it is the fault of the kernel, for without a kernel with a built > in distributed lock manager, you can't implement true clustering. IIRC, the NT kernel *has* a built-in distributed lock manager. If not, it would be easy to add it. The NT kernel is actually small, simple, and almost elegant. But as I've explained, that's the part that developers never see. Even driver writers only get to see part of it, but have to deal with disgusting crap like NDIS for other services. >> If you want a file server to be as robust as possible, it should be used for >> nothing but serving files. That was true even in the old days. > > That would be news to any large VMS or IBM mainframe shop. The ones that I've contracted for ran applications on separate machines from the file servers, because this was (1) more robust, and (2) higher performance. Usually the heavy-duty system optimizations needed for file servers are different than those needed for applications. Certainly you *can* run applications on your file server. And on a good OS, it will work OK. But that doesn't prove that it is the best way to do things. From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 15 18:05:46 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903160005.QAA08434@civic.hal.com> Mike Ford wrote: > > Then in your program you could define > > Graggle > Fraggle > Rraggle > End Graggle Hi The unique thing about Forth is that you can more easily build as you go. You can completely check your code at each level of complexity. While at work I do a little C and Pearl. When working on home projects I pull out some Forth. As an example: Once I have the template, I write an assembler in an evening. As Mike has shown, it is a "Do it as you see it" type language. This makes debug a snap and eliminates most of those hidden precedence order bugs that seem to sneak into code. It is a type-less language so you have to be a big boy and know that you can't multiply a character times 5 and get a meaningful result. In general it is a vary structured and modular language that allows the language to be expanded to be the solution. The bad part about Forth is dealing with all of the stack manipulation words. Many consider them to be unnecessary noise. Still, one can get Forth running on most processors with a minimum of time and effort. You start with a minimal interpreter/compiler that runs from a terminal and build the rest on the machine in question. No need for ROM-ICE or special debuggers. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 17:09:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903152146.NAA12130@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 15, 99 01:46:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/629e99ae/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 17:13:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <01be9f28$5883e660$fa8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at May 15, 99 04:12:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/48c38e26/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Mar 15 18:21:10 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 15, 99 11:09:19 pm Message-ID: <199903160021.QAA11656@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 564 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990315/1edd211d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 15 18:14:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903160021.QAA11656@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 15, 99 04:21:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/8ba6ac4a/attachment.ksh From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Mon Mar 15 18:31:05 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. Message-ID: <199903160031.QAA14712@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Eric - At 11:46 PM 3/15/99 -0000, you wrote: >Because it *isn't* based on Mach. Roger. >Which part of that is hard to understand? >The historical record of this is fairly well documented. I stand corrected. I guess the early hype I heard about NT was entirely falacious and a complete figment of my imagination. >There are some "UNIX servers" that can be run on top of Mach, but >Mach is not UNIX. I don't think I ever stated ... "Mach is UNIX". I will be more careful in the future to distinguish that UNIX might be layered on a Mach kernel, then again, it might not. >IIRC, the NT kernel *has* a built-in distributed lock manager. If not, it >would be easy to add it. The NT kernel is actually small, simple, and >almost elegant. ... If it was as trivial as you indicate, then there would be NT clusters as far as the eye could see. It took Digital several versions of VMS to support clusters. >Certainly you *can* run applications on your file server. And on a good OS, >it will work OK. But that doesn't prove that it is the best way to do >things. It is the only way to do things if that is what you can afford. It appears that I have been much less fortunate than you in my selection of employers. -- Dean =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dean Billing Phone: 530-752-5956 UC Davis FAX: 530-752-6363 IT-CR EMAIL: drbilling@ucdavis.edu One Shields Way Davis, CA 95616 From bwit at ticnet.com Mon Mar 15 18:21:57 1999 From: bwit at ticnet.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. Message-ID: <01BE6F11.B09C19E0.bwit@ticnet.com> On Monday, March 15, 1999 4:34 PM, Max Eskin [SMTP:max82@surfree.com] wrote: > On 15 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >The actual operating system deep in the bowels of Windows NT isn't so > >bad. But they have lventy-seven layers of crap on top of it to keep > >you from seing anything that might be simple and elegant. > > Of course, the kernel can't be blamed for much of anything. I'm sure that > if Microsoft got its hands on VMS source code, they would mess it up, > while if DEC got its hands on NT source code, they would make something > wonderful out of it... > Didn't all the lead technicians who built NT come from DEC? In fact wasn't Dave Cutler, NT head honcho, the designer of VMS? Bob From joe at barrera.org Mon Mar 15 18:57:46 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. References: <199903152313.PAA26771@pop2.ucdavis.edu> <19990315234644.1271.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <006c01be6f48$0765c0b0$4001010a@joebargx1> Eric has the story straight here (plus or minus a couple minor details). Around Oct. 1991, Rick Rashid, the principle investigator of the Mach project, left Carnegie Mellon to establish the newly established Microsoft Research group. I was a graduate student of Rick's and a member of the Mach project since 1986. In June 1992 I left CMU to follow Rick. When I got to Microsoft, NT was already in usable beta form (you could actually run it on your machine and get work done). One of the first things we did was to get to know the internals of NT. Believe me, in neither code nor philosophy is NT based on Mach. NT's VM system is completely different: it sort of treats everything like an x86, whereas Mach has a "pmap" layer which provides a higher level of abstraction than just emulating the x86 MMU. NT is also handle-based, whereas Mach is port-based. In Mach, all operations on system objects (threads, tasks[=processes], memory, etc.) are performing by sending a message to that object -- thus it doesn't matter if the object is local (on the same machine) or remote. In NT, some operations are remoted for you (e.g. registry operations) but most aren't. The resemblance between NT and VMS, on the other hand, is quite strong, especially when it came to I/O, with IRPs and APCs mapping onto VMS's IRPs and AST's. A good book to read about the development of NT, and its relationship to Mach and MSR, is "Show-Stopper! The Breakneck Race to Create Windows NT..." by Zachary, G. Pascal. If you search on www.abebooks.com for title="showstopper", you will find about 20 copies available. > Yes, but in Win32, you *can't* make OS calls. You can only make Win32 > calls. It's an extra layer of mostly useless crap. Actually, a Win32 process can call NT system calls directly. It's just not encouraged :-) - Joe From joe at barrera.org Mon Mar 15 18:59:15 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. References: <01BE6F11.B09C19E0.bwit@ticnet.com> Message-ID: <007501be6f48$39c84ff0$4001010a@joebargx1> > Didn't all the lead technicians who built NT come from DEC? In fact wasn't Dave Cutler, NT head honcho, the designer of VMS? Yes and yes. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 15 19:05:58 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: FW: Cleaning My Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990315170558.00963e90@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Attention, would-be rescuers in or near Milwaukee, WI! There's a graduating student (Josh Hulbert) looking to get rid of a VAXen and PDP-11 (unknown model) as freebies. If interested, contact him directly. Best of luck! -=-=- -=-=- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:26:47 -0600 (CST) From: Joshua Hulbert To: port-vax@netbsd.org Subject: Cleaning My Room Sender: port-vax-owner@netbsd.org Delivered-To: port-vax@netbsd.org Hello All, I will be graduating at the end of this quarter and moving several hundred miles away from my dorm, so I need to minimize the amount of stuff I take with me. I have the following VAX-related equipment, free for the taking: VS2000, with VR-160-DA, LK201, and puck-mouse. I have the 3-meter long cable for this one. It has an RD-54, and a RAM expansion to 20MB IIRC. I know it boots and runs NetBSD just fine, but there is nothing on the RD54. PDP-11: I know next to nothing about this thing. I picked it up for $10 at American Science and Surplus. From what I could gather, it may have been a terminal server or something. It doesn't have enough RAM to load an OS, but it has some funky ROM card. If anyone is interested, I can send the M-numbers on the cards in the cage. Heres the catch: You have to come get it, as shipping would exceed the value of these boxes. I live in downtown Milwaukee, Wisconsin (USA). Again, if anyone is interested, I can send part numbers on all the parts. Joshua Hulbert Senior Electrical Engineer Milwaukee School of Engineering -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 15 19:40:37 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: <36ED93AF.FCB8CADB@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Dependant upon the controller, all sorts of drives would ork, including IDE > later - as long as the controller was an 8 bit with it's own bios. I know that's a typo, but it's good. In the last fifteen years of dealing with PC compatibles, I've seen a lot of drives ork. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 15 19:42:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: Got a question....PDP? VAX? Message-ID: <199903160142.AA00495@world.std.com> Also the OS is still current and planned for future for the <> Alpha. < I heard that NT has a lot of VMS engineers behind it. < (message from Dean Billing on Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:31:05 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903160031.QAA14712@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <19990316021515.2249.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> IIRC, the NT kernel *has* a built-in distributed lock manager. If not, it >> would be easy to add it. The NT kernel is actually small, simple, and >> almost elegant. ... > > If it was as trivial as you indicate, then there would be NT clusters as far > as the eye could see. It took Digital several versions of VMS to support > clusters. I'm not saying that clustering is easy. I'm saying that distributed lock management is (relatively) easy. The theory behind it is pretty well understood. (Whether it is well understood in Redmond is another matter.) While distributed lock management is *necessary* for clustering, it's only one of the lowest levels of the software. There's a hell of a lot of other stuff that must be gotten right as well, which is why so few operating systems have true clustering support. Microsoft keeps promising that they will have it someday... Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 15 20:19:48 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <006c01be6f48$0765c0b0$4001010a@joebargx1> References: <199903152313.PAA26771@pop2.ucdavis.edu> <19990315234644.1271.qmail@brouhaha.com> <006c01be6f48$0765c0b0$4001010a@joebargx1> Message-ID: <19990316021948.2292.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Actually, a Win32 process can call NT system calls directly. It's just not > encouraged :-) I stand corrected. Has this always been true? I once asked MS tech support, and was told that NT system calls couldn't be made from a Win32 application, because the Win32 subsystem would trap them and not pass them to the kernel. Third parties have figured out how to write native NT programs (which are effectively peers to the subsystems). However, in the general case there's not much reason to do so. Although it might be fun to write a replacement for the POSIX subsystem that was actually sufficiently full-featured to be useful (vs. the current implementation which was deliberately made to be minimally conformant for the sole purpose of making NT POSIX-compliant for government procurement purposes). From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 15 20:29:33 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <19990316021515.2249.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > stuff that must be gotten right as well, which is why so few operating systems > have true clustering support. Microsoft keeps promising that they will have > it someday... Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating system _today_. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 15 20:35:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems Message-ID: <199903160235.AA09708@world.std.com> <> Didn't all the lead technicians who built NT come from DEC? In fact <19990315234644.1271.qmail@brouhaha.com> <006c01be6f48$0765c0b0$4001010a@joebargx1> <19990316021948.2292.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <003d01be6f59$04f5c260$4001010a@joebargx1> > > Actually, a Win32 process can call NT system calls directly. It's just not > > encouraged :-) > > I stand corrected. > > Has this always been true? Yep, at least ever since 1991. BTW I did a quick web search for "NtCreateFile" and found a nice page about how to call NT calls directly at http://www.osr.com/insider/1996/native.htm > I once asked MS tech support, and was told that NT system calls couldn't > be made from a Win32 application, because the Win32 subsystem would trap > them and not pass them to the kernel. Nope, this is wrong. - Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 15 21:31:59 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: References: <199903150134.AA21383@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990315193054.009b5290@mcmanis.com> At 06:31 PM 3/15/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >It does IIRC. And v32 (and thus 4.x BSD) for VAXen. NetBSD, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD are all post Net2 derivatives and thus free for use without the $100 fee. (and it would go to SCO these days I believe) I'm running NetBSD on the uVax II even as we type... --Chuck From joe at barrera.org Mon Mar 15 21:28:59 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. References: <199903160235.AA09940@world.std.com> Message-ID: <005001be6f5d$262df3e0$4001010a@joebargx1> > <> Didn't all the lead technicians who built NT come from DEC? In fact > < > > Not quite. Cutler was the designer of RSX-11 and files-11 all of which were > part of VMS but not VMS it self, his direct involvemnt was near nil by the > mid to late 80s. Is there anyone more deserving of the title "designer of VMS"? VMS came out in 1978. What does his level of involvement by the "mid to late 80s" have to do with whether he was the designer of (or the primary designer of) VMS? > His contribution to NT was at the higher archetectual level. All I know is that he wrote a shitload of code, and did a shitload of direct management. I don't know how anyone could dispute that he was "head honcho." Again, I recommend "Showstopper", it's pretty accurate. - Joe From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 15 21:45:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > > stuff that must be gotten right as well, which is why so few operating systems > > have true clustering support. Microsoft keeps promising that they will have > > it someday... > > Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating ^^^^^^^^ Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Mar 15 21:48:59 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <005001be6f5d$262df3e0$4001010a@joebargx1> References: <199903160235.AA09940@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903160348.NAA28695@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 19:28 15/03/99 -0800, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >Is there anyone more deserving of the title "designer of VMS"? There were a number of people inside Digital who had the designation "VMS architect" or some such. In the early days I think there were three or four, one of whom was Dick Hustvedt who I had the pleasure of meeting in 1983 in New Zealand. Later, there were larger numbers of "architects" such as Keith Walls who was the Backup architect for a while (Keith and I go back a long way). You can find out who the real architects/coders for VMS are/were by looking into the source code (take the scheduler for example, the core of which hasn't changed since VMS v0.xx...) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Mar 15 21:38:39 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: BAL-500 eprom programmer Message-ID: <25bb86cd.36edd23f@aol.com> Found this in the many boxes of apple // goodies i have. Plugged it into my //e and with a PR#7, got a menu and managed to experiment around and messed up an old ami bios keyboard eprom pretty good just for fun. I know it's menu- driven, but anyone have instructions on how to use it. I noticed the status LEDs blinking as it did various things. This thing could come in handy for who knows what... david From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Mar 15 22:01:52 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: VMS architects In-Reply-To: <199903010631.WAA11767@shell2.aracnet.com> References: <199903010457.WAA15648@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <199903160401.OAA28605@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Looking at http://www.openvms.digital.com/openvms/20th/vms20/sld004.htm which is part of the VMS 20th anniversary celebrations we find: "From the beginning, the hardware and software were planned and designed together. A group known as “The Blue Ribbon Committee” included three hardware engineers -- Bill Strecker, Richie Lary, and Steve Rothman -- and three software engineers -- Dave Cutler, Dick Hustvedt, and Peter Lipman. They simplified early designs and created a plan that would be possible to execute. The fifth design evolution was perfected and accepted in April of 1976, exactly one year after the design work began." So I guess Dave Cutler was there from the beginning of VMS development. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 15 22:27:43 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 15, 99 07:45:51 pm Message-ID: <199903160427.UAA20712@saul6.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating > ^^^^^^^^ > > Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Yes, I did... but I had just seen the same joke on alt.folklore.computers, so I wondered if this was a copy. Now the _real_ stoke of genius was the reply article (see below). -- Derek Article 213068 of alt.folklore.computers: Path: news.u.washington.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!argonet.co.uk!argbq79 From: Dave Daniels Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Unix case-sensitivity: how did it originate? Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:32:32 GMT Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <7c8k6k$bo@top.mitre.org> <7cbk4u$n9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7cd1ch$37d$1@nusku.cts.com> <36ea96e6$1$wg$mr2ice@news.epix.net> <7ciu66$j79@top.mitre.org> Reply-To: Dave Daniels NNTP-Posting-Host: userc999.uk.uudial.com X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Xref: news.u.washington.edu alt.folklore.computers:213068 In article , Eivind wrote: > And in the official way to spell the name of the largest sw company on > the planet: Micros~1 :-) If they end up split into baby Micro~1s, as has been suggested, they could be Micros~1, Micros~2, Micros~3 and Micros~4. (Hmm... That's a thought... Does that mean that they will be hard to tell apart?) Dave -- ANTISPAM: Please note that the email address above is false. My correct address is: dave_danielsargonetcouk Please replace the and s with @ and . respectively when replying - Thanks! From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Mar 15 22:41:02 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols Message-ID: <19990315.224102.149.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Frank: I got the docs you sent, I think these will help quite a bit! I'm gonna put a few dollars in the mail to cover postage, etc. Thanks! Jeff On 10 Mar 1999 16:18:13 -0800 Frank McConnell writes: >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >> Does anyone have the docs for these HP protocols? > >Parts of CS/80, from the 7941/7945 service manual. I'd like to get >info on the rest too. > >> The Amigo protocol is the oldest. Then the CS-80, >> and the SS-80 is the newest. I think any of >> these would be relevent to the work I'm doing. > >For real? Can you talk about it? > >-Frank McConnell > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 15 23:13:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: VMS architects In-Reply-To: <199903160401.OAA28605@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <199903010631.WAA11767@shell2.aracnet.com> <199903010457.WAA15648@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >So I guess Dave Cutler was there from the beginning of VMS development. However, it's my understanding he left somewhere shortly after Version 1.0. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From joe at barrera.org Mon Mar 15 23:32:10 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: VMS architects Message-ID: <00de01be6f6e$58e23ce0$4001010a@joebargx1> > >So I guess Dave Cutler was there from the beginning of VMS development. > > However, it's my understanding he left somewhere shortly after Version 1.0. > > Zane He and a bunch of other VMS folks headed off to DECWest, and worked on a variety of projects including the Mica (?) operating system. I believe it's largely the DECWest crowd that moved to Microsoft. If you look at http://www.halcyon.com/edge/decwest_alumni you'll see a large number of @microsoft.com addresses. - Joe From gram at cnct.com Tue Mar 16 00:01:02 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > > Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating > ^^^^^^^^ > Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) It was probably clever the first time, it's standard nomenclature at Slashdot. Don't grant me credit I haven't earned. (Whoever started it at Slashdot had probably created a directory called "Microsoft" under a non-M$ OS on a M$ partition, then tried to access it from DOS or Windoze). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From black at gco.apana.org.au Tue Mar 16 15:53:28 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. Message-ID: <36EED2D7.DCE29355@gco.apana.org.au> Well, I finally picked up that HP 85 today, it's in remarkably good nick, the problem everyone here has mentioned about the rubber roller - no problem, it's in perfect order (probably got something to do with Tassie's frigid weather). Came with two cartridges plugged into the back: 82903A 16k memory module 82936A rom drawer - on this, two "drawers" occupied - 0085-15004 MATRIX & 0085-15-005 ADVANCED PGRM Unfortunately, no tapes or manuals.... will see what I can find manual-wise on the World Wide wait. But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? And secondly, to ease my withdrawal symptoms having bought no Commodore stuff for at least two weeks A Commodore PC5 (my first PC was one of these), yet another 128D & three MPS 803 printers..... got my Commie fix for the week, so I should be able to make it through until next payday :-) cheers, Lance From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 16 00:11:44 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:03 2005 Subject: Computers Stuff For Sale References: Message-ID: <36EDF620.B6E11E50@rain.org> I don't see the past messages, but there was some talk about someone in Santa Barbara selling a bunch of older computer magazines, hardware, software, etc. The web site is at http://www.silcom.com/~tiger. I talked with the guy tonight and he is the person I thought was selling the stuff. He is moving to Arizona in a month or so, and that is the main reason he is selling off all this stuff. He still has quite a bit left, so I am just passing the word. From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 15 22:38:14 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: BAL-500 eprom programmer In-Reply-To: <25bb86cd.36edd23f@aol.com> Message-ID: >Found this in the many boxes of apple // goodies i have. Plugged it into my >//e and with a PR#7, got a menu and managed to experiment around and messed up >an old ami bios keyboard eprom pretty good just for fun. I know it's menu- >driven, but anyone have instructions on how to use it. I noticed the status >LEDs blinking as it did various things. This thing could come in handy for who >knows what... Back in my busy 6502 days we rolled our own Eprom burner, handfull of logic on a Apple II proto board with a dac to set the pin voltage, and a OpAmp to boost it from 2 volts to 20 something. Just for fun when you hit the burn key I used some code I ripped off from Wolfenstein, and the Apple II would scream. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 16 01:12:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Computers Stuff For Sale In-Reply-To: <36EDF620.B6E11E50@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > I don't see the past messages, but there was some talk about someone in > Santa Barbara selling a bunch of older computer magazines, hardware, > software, etc. The web site is at http://www.silcom.com/~tiger. I talked > with the guy tonight and he is the person I thought was selling the stuff. > He is moving to Arizona in a month or so, and that is the main reason he is > selling off all this stuff. He still has quite a bit left, so I am just > passing the word. Well, don't expect to get any real good deals. He found ebay and now is demanding at least ebay prices, or else he deems your offers "a joke". He'd rather sell and ship onesies and twosies than sell whole lots at a time for reasonable offers. He can kiss my sweet young ass. ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 16 01:42:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: 23F2716 cables all sold, Monday swapday? Message-ID: I guess the three people on the earth with a P70 must be on this list, those cables are gone. A couple of the other lists I am on have Monday as swapday, the day people should offer up things they don't need to those who do need them. So don't be surprized if from time to time I end up making some kind of post here as I rifle through my stuff and make a post on one of the other lists. Today I want to hit three points, a vendor I know with some old software, recent additions to my personal heap of stuff, and the URL that points to it. At the Fontana, CA hamfest last Saturday a vendor I know had a couple dozen moving sized boxes of old (circa 1990) software, many still sealed. I bought AppleShare 3.0, 2.0, a couple PC Appletalk cards, a full set of AUX version 1.1 (Apple unix), and plan on paying a visit to his warehouse before he takes the next load to Pomona next Saturday. If someone is looking for a complete boxed set of some software of that era, MacDraft, MacSomethingElse, let me know ASAP, or wander out to Pomona and see whats left. The mix BTW was about 60/40 mac/pc, but I don't have a clue about old PC stuff. I bought a dozen old macs, a pair of laserwriter II's (I now have motherboards for IInt, IIntx, and IIg), a box of Apple II cables, a big box of Farallon phonenet adapters, more nubus video and ethernet cards, and out of the dozen old macs it looks like two of the SE have Levco Prodigy boards (the first I looked at included a 4 MB ram on the Prodigy board) and three SE/30 are checking out pretty well. If you see something on my web page, NOW is a good time to ask for it. As usual my web page isn't very up to date, but at least I am getting more listed all the time. If I don't show a price, help me out and suggest one. http://www.netwiz.net/~mikeford/MacList.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 16 01:46:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: mass storage controllers for S-100 Message-ID: <19990316074708881.AAA157@fuj03> It turns out I've got a few mass storage controller which might be of use. All were funcional when removed from their previous homes. Cipher Data products - 2-board set + controller formatter (on the format of the open reel tape drive, rather than the S-100 board pair) 9-trackTape interface - XComp 8" Winchester Disk Controller board pair tuned for the 4.34 MHz data transfer rate of SA-100x series drives. - MSC - (later called Xebec) S-100, unfortunately over-height ST-506 (2 drives) interface, MFM coding. - Ditronics-1 (Micro Applications, Inc) dual density FDC (5-1/4" drives only) Let me know if you have any use for these items, and perhaps we can arrange a transfer. Dick From black at gco.apana.org.au Tue Mar 16 19:07:58 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Commodore m/board switches & connectors ? Message-ID: <36EF006D.6C9C56A0@gco.apana.org.au> Hi peoples, This Commodore PC 5 that I picked up has a problem ---- me.... it's been so many years since I used one, that I cannot remember the switch settings & the connectors on the motherboard. Does anyone out ther have the manual for the PC 5 or 10 that they can look up for me ? cheers, Lance From tim at thereviewguide.com Mon Mar 15 19:24:30 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards Message-ID: <199903161035.CAA16380@geocities.com> Hi. I've had the XT for a while... it was in perfect condition. I even got all the origional boxes and manuals that came with it. A ProPrinter with demo pages, etc. were included. A whole heapin' helpin' of software, as well as several disks were included. The thing had all IBM componets, and I even have a recipt(!). I personally was shocked that you had to buy all the individual componets (well, not all, but they didn't have a complete system setup.) Anyway, it also came with a RAM Expansion board, which was installed, and a 20MB HardCard (I even have a Hard Drives of America catalog from the same time.) As anyone with a hard card knows, they have a metal board to support the hard drive on and the PCB to go into the expansion slot. It's an easy upgrade, and it really looks like it was a good idea. But anyway, because of the size of the thing, my options are extremely limited as to what slot it can go into. I ended up having to take the RAM expansion board out. So can a RAM expanion board for an XT go into any slot, or is the XT picky like an Apple II as to what can go where? Thanks, Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Mar 16 06:23:24 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: 23F2716 cables all sold, Monday swapday? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 15, 99 11:42:19 pm" Message-ID: <199903161223.HAA02051@crobin.home.org> > At the Fontana, CA hamfest last Saturday a vendor I know had a couple dozen > moving sized boxes of old (circa 1990) software, many still sealed. I > bought AppleShare 3.0, 2.0, a couple PC Appletalk cards, a full set of AUX > version 1.1 (Apple unix), and plan on paying a visit to his warehouse > before he takes the next load to Pomona next Saturday. If someone is > looking for a complete boxed set of some software of that era, MacDraft, > MacSomethingElse, let me know ASAP, or wander out to Pomona and see whats > left. The mix BTW was about 60/40 mac/pc, but I don't have a clue about old > PC stuff. AppleShare 3.0 is nice as it is the last version which will netboot an Apple //e or //gs. If you can find another copy cheap, please let me know. one other thing... can you keep your eyes open for a Kinetics or Cabletron SCSI Ethernet box. I've decided that I'm specifically interested in one of those two as they are the two vendors supported by the NetBSD driver. Thanks... <<>> P.S. Still waiting on the PB170; it should arrive today or tomorrow. From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 16 06:40:22 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. Message-ID: <000e01be6faa$2940f940$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I have the BASIC Summary posted at: www.pclink.com/fauradon in the tech info section the tapes are: HP part number 98200A The only marking on the tape are: HP 200 and series 9800 Hope this helps I'll dig up my HP stuff to see if I have anything on the ROMs Francois >Unfortunately, no tapes or manuals.... will see what I can find >manual-wise on the World Wide wait. > >But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? > From oboissea at club-internet.fr Tue Mar 16 07:18:03 1999 From: oboissea at club-internet.fr (BOISSEAU Olivier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: MPT-05 videogame system from ITMC - help! Message-ID: <36EE5A0B.94833342@club-internet.fr> Hello there ! I've found a new system this week-end, the MPT-05 from ITMC. A quite rare and strange system. By talking with a friend, we have put a very small list of known carts for this system: MT06 Morpion Electronique MT11 Tir de chasse MT14 Jeux de Cirque MT16 Reversi MT19 Musique et M?moire Then by looking at the Voltmace Database cart list made by Teflon, I've found that some of them are very similar to our list: 8 Shooting Gallery = MT11 12 Circus = MT14 14 Four in a Row = MT06 21 Musical Memory = MT19 and ??? =MT16 Reversi I think the MPT-05 is a Voltmace Database clone which wouldn't be surprising since I have a Hanimex MPT-02 which is a RCA Studio 2 clone and a MPT-03 which is an Arcadia 2001 clone ! Or maybe the MPT-05 is a clone of the Acetronic MPU-1000. Could someone tell me more/give me info/or whatever related to the Voltmace System/Acetronic MPU-1000 or even ITMC MPT-05 ? Cheers, -- BOISSEAU Olivier E-mail: oboissea@club-internet.fr ICQ#: 8733445 8-Bits Rendez-Vous: http://perso.club-internet.fr/oboissea/ Le Club 8-bit : http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/club8bit/ Patrimoine Gironde: http://www.multimania.com/gironde/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 09:52:46 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <36EED2D7.DCE29355@gco.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> Lance, At 04:53 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >Well, I finally picked up that HP 85 today, it's in remarkably good >nick, the problem everyone here has mentioned about the rubber roller - >no problem, it's in perfect order (probably got something to do with >Tassie's frigid weather). Came with two cartridges plugged into the >back: > >82903A 16k memory module >82936A rom drawer - on this, two "drawers" occupied - 0085-15004 MATRIX >& 0085-15-005 ADVANCED PGRM > >Unfortunately, no tapes or manuals.... will see what I can find >manual-wise on the World Wide wait. Check www.ebbsoft.com. > >But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. Joe From gram at cnct.com Tue Mar 16 08:13:26 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards In-Reply-To: <199903161035.CAA16380@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Tim Hotze wrote: > the PCB to go into the expansion slot. It's an easy upgrade, and it > really looks like it was a good idea. But anyway, because of the > size of the thing, my options are extremely limited as to what slot > it can go into. I ended up having to take the RAM expansion board > out. So can a RAM expanion board for an XT go into any slot, or is > the XT picky like an Apple II as to what can go where? An XT doesn't give a damn what goes where as long as it physically and electrically fits. And proper use of a chainsaw on the case minimizes problems with things fitting physically. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 16 08:53:06 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Cleaning My Room In-Reply-To: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990316085306.0108ce80@vpwisfirewall> At 08:32 PM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote: >Dang! I wish I liven in WI. :) I'm diving for it... I'm not far away, and my mother-in-law is a prof there... - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 16 08:55:15 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990316085515.00a9a9d0@vpwisfirewall> At 07:45 PM 3/15/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating > ^^^^^^^^ > >Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) Well, actually it should be "MICROS~1". - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 16 09:16:41 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Cleaning My Room Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990316091641.00aeac60@vpwisfirewall> >At 08:32 PM 5/15/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Dang! I wish I liven in WI. :) > >I'm diving for it... I'm not far away, and my mother-in-law is a >prof there... Got it! He's unloading a PDP 11/23 of some kind, presently disk-less, a VS 2000, and a disassembled but probably still functional VS 3500. Maybe I'll pick them up tomorrow. It sounds like he was into net-booting BSD. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 16 09:19:05 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: > >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) - John From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Tue Mar 16 09:43:37 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: FW: Wanted: PDP/11 PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE In-Reply-To: <7clhra$2vo$1@spruce.ukc.ac.uk> References: <7clhra$2vo$1@spruce.ukc.ac.uk> Message-ID: <36f17bef.157008145@smtp.jps.net> Fellow in the UK's looking for a PDP-11, and it doesn't sound like he's picky about what or where. Reply directly if you can help. Thanks. -=-=- -=-=- On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:13:04 -0000, in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >>From: "James" >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>Subject: Wanted: PDP/11 PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE >>Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:13:04 -0000 >>Organization: University of Kent at Canterbury >>Lines: 9 >>Message-ID: <7clhra$2vo$1@spruce.ukc.ac.uk> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: stue24e.ukc.ac.uk >>X-Trace: spruce.ukc.ac.uk 921586346 3064 129.12.226.78 (16 Mar 1999 12:12:26 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: news@ukc.ac.uk >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Mar 1999 12:12:26 GMT >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news.sisna.com!pants.skycache.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!ukc!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:14 >> >>Hi, >>I am a student in the UK who loves ye olde computers, and really want to get >>my hands on a PDP/11, I'm sure there must be loads of people out there who >>have a PDP/11 stashed away somewhere that there never really going to use >>again, well hows about you give it to me!!!! Please? >> >>James. >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 16 10:12:44 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, > >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] > > Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) GORT?!? Looks like its time to start offering paper tape in the 'Computer Garage' store... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Mar 16 10:10:53 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Yesterday's hamfest & manual FT Message-ID: <80256736.005978B5.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > I got two copies of "IBM Maintenance Library - 3278 Display Station > Models 1,2,3,and 4 Maintenance Information". Anybody want the second one > ($5 shipped), or wish to trade for it (intersted in books on interfacing > the Apple II)? Tom - I take it this is just a board swapper's guide (from what I remember of the 3278 it's not likely to be any more than that). If nobody else wants it, I might take it for old times' sake. How much is shipping to the UK? Philip. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 16 10:58:58 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > An XT doesn't give a damn what goes where as long as it physically > and electrically fits. And proper use of a chainsaw on the case > minimizes problems with things fitting physically. ALMOST. The slot closest to the power supply on real IBM XTs is actually slightly different than the other seven! REALLY! Check the schematics! I think that IBM might have originally intended it for use with a coprocessor board? I order to prevent anyone from using it for anything else; and because multifunction boards had virtually eliminated demand for single funtion cards that IBM had excess of, IBM provided a "free" serial card already installed in that last slot. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 16 11:03:22 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards References: <199903161035.CAA16380@geocities.com> Message-ID: <36EE8EDA.809DA38A@rain.org> Tim Hotze wrote: > > out. So can a RAM expanion board for an XT go into any slot, or is > the XT picky like an Apple II as to what can go where? There is a problem on the XT with some boards not working in slot 8 (nearest the power supply), and I can't remember what boards were affected. It seems to me that there was a timing issue involved. The RAM board should be able to go anywhere though. From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 16 11:07:01 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) References: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <36EE8FB5.24EE2989@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, > >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] > > Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time :). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers (late 40's, early 50's)? From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 16 11:12:29 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <36EE8FB5.24EE2989@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Mar 16, 99 09:07:01 am Message-ID: <199903161712.JAA00192@saul4.u.washington.edu> Marvin wrote: > John Foust wrote: > > Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) > I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time > :). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just > to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted > with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet > of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers > (late 40's, early 50's)? You mean Lyons, the people who produced the LEO? I think it was the first commercially sold computer; it was a cleaned-up version of one of the British research machines (Manchester Mark I? EDSAC?). -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 16 11:35:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > > At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, > > >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] > > > > Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) > > GORT?!? Looks like its time to start offering paper tape in the 'Computer > Garage' store... You mean RARE Altair IMSAI Paper Tape? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Mar 16 11:38:58 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: <80256736.00618A18.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time >> :). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just >> to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted >> with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet >> of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers >> (late 40's, early 50's)? > > You mean Lyons, the people who produced the LEO? I think it was the first > commercially sold computer; it was a cleaned-up version of one of the > British research machines (Manchester Mark I? EDSAC?). The story as it is usually told here in the UK: Lyons had a large chain of tea shops across the UK. They had a system that worked well for ordering stock for the shops and dispatching it, but it was data-processing-intensive and they knew they needed to streamline in order to survive. What do you do if you have a system that's DP-intensive and needs streamlining? Obvious! You computerise it! (All Lyons' DP was being done by hand at that time) Right. Who sells computers for business? Well, a few DP machines (tabulators etc.) exist, and can probably be bought, but nobody sells computers at all! Lyons had the far-sightedness to push ahead with their plans to computerise, and sent two (?) technicians to Cambridge to work on the EDSAC project (a rare example of collaborative research actually working!) The technicians duly went and worked on EDSAC, and came back to Lyons well knowledgeable about computers. Lyons then set out to design their own computer, which they called LEO. They soon discovered that other companies, seeing the benefit that computerising the business had had for Lyons, wanted business computers too. And thus Leo Computers was born - a subsidiary of Lyons, who made and sold business computers. I think there's about one each of their later (solid state) and original (hollow state) machines still around... I think Leo Computers may be regarded as the world's first commercial computer manufacturer. But I don't think they existed as early as the '40s. I think the original LEO project was early '50s, and Leo Computers (as a manufacturer) mid '50s and later. But I'm not sure... Anyone care to add to the above? Correct my mistakes? Etc.? Philip. PS Let us know how the Leo Computers punched card sells! Should fetch a lot! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 16 11:51:04 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 16, 99 09:35:33 am Message-ID: <199903161751.JAA09494@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/3728aa54/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 16 11:52:44 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903161752.JAA10976@civic.hal.com> Hi All I have been playing with the Tiny Basic on my Poly88. I have found an only listing of version 3.0 in a book. I've disassembled the code on in my machine and have been putting meaningful lables into it. It isn't finished yet but I'll let those who are interested know when it is done. I am also looking for anyone with programs written for Tiny Basic. I once remember having a Startrek and a hamarobi game but that is all. I'd like to put together a collections. I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only found references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K! I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller than 8K which is a standard sized basic. Dwight From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 16 12:04:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <36EE8FB5.24EE2989@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time > :). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just > to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted > with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet > of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers > (late 40's, early 50's)? Of course not :) But please explain. 40s and 50s?? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 16 12:12:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <199903161752.JAA10976@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only found > references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site > that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K! > I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it > is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller > than 8K which is a standard sized basic. Hey Dwight. I was poking around the Usenet last night and found this web site: The AisnotA Code Archive http://www.code.archive.aisnota.com/ Has KIM-1, SOl-20, ZX-81, VIC-20, 8080, 8051 and 8052 code free for download. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Mar 16 13:00:41 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: Concerning the LEO: From dogas at leading.net Tue Mar 16 13:23:17 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: looking for an Exidy Message-ID: <01be6fe2$71d30760$d1c962cf@devlaptop> Can someone please help me out... I just got my Exidy s-100 expansion box for the Sorcerer. Now, all I need is the Sorcerer. ;) Will someone please sell me one? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 16 13:43:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <199903161752.JAA10976@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey on Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:44 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903161752.JAA10976@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <19990316194300.7042.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only found > references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site > that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K! > I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it > is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller > than 8K which is a standard sized basic. Heck, "standard sized BASIC" came in 4K, 8K, and 12K variants. IIRC, those were the memory sizes needed to run them and still have at least a small amount of memory left over for your program. But yes, if 7K is considered "Tiny BASIC", I should write a 6K "Miniscule BASIC"! I guess it's just a symptom of the general software inflation that has occurred. Everything has become bloated and inefficient. That "Tiny BASIC" isn't written in C++, by any chance? :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 16 12:32:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards In-Reply-To: <199903161035.CAA16380@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Mar 15, 99 09:24:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2093 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/bba3e533/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 16 12:37:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: classic operating systems In-Reply-To: <199903160235.AA09708@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 15, 99 09:35:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/9af837f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 16 12:48:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Mar 16, 99 09:19:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/6f5a76be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 16 12:50:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards In-Reply-To: <36EE8EDA.809DA38A@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Mar 16, 99 09:03:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 764 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/9a226a74/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 16 13:50:29 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <19990316194300.7042.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 16, 99 07:43:00 pm Message-ID: <199903161950.LAA09550@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/9b7126d6/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 16 12:16:04 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316085515.00a9a9d0@vpwisfirewall> References: Message-ID: >At 07:45 PM 3/15/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> >>> Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating >> ^^^^^^^^ >> >>Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) > >Well, actually it should be "MICROS~1". > >- John I don't get it, explain slowly please. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 16 12:23:26 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <36EE8FB5.24EE2989@rain.org> References: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: >John Foust wrote: >> >> At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: >> > >> >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, >> >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] >> >> Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) > >I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time >:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just >to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted >with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet >of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers >(late 40's, early 50's)? Don't forget to say its ** RARE ** From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 16 14:12:59 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 16, 99 10:16:04 am Message-ID: <199903162013.MAA12796@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/f4f79d0c/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 16 15:18:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: wanted: muMath and/or muLisp for Apple II or CP/M In-Reply-To: <19990315195945.32281.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199903150142.RAA19389@saul10.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:42:08 -0800 (PST)) Message-ID: <199903162019.VAA05349@horus.mch.sni.de> > I asked about buying a copy of muMath for the Apple ][. BTW, regarding old soft, I stumbled across a real nice article: http://simson.net/clips/99.Globe.02-18.Copyrights_and_wrongs+.shtml Gruss H. P.S.: I'm off the list for the next two weeks (trip to moscow). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Mar 16 14:09:51 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: <3a295b91.36eeba8f@aol.com> Further from The Dream Machine, after many pages about IBM: "The British computer industry, started by Lyons in the late 1940s [by sending two people to the EDVAC team] never had a chance. In 1963, after selling only [!] 100 computers, Lyons sold their computer division to the English Electric Company. ..... After several mergers the English Electric Company would be absorbed into ICL, ... in 1990 Fujitsu bought 80 % of ICL." John G. Zabolitzky From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Mar 16 12:26:59 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <199903161752.JAA10976@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990316122659.24b70cd6@earthlink.net> Hi Dwight and all, At 09:52 AM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hi All > I have been playing with the Tiny Basic on my >Poly88. I have found an only listing of version 3.0 >in a book. I've disassembled the code on in my machine >and have been putting meaningful lables into it. It >isn't finished yet but I'll let those who are interested >know when it is done. See if you can find the book "PCC's Reference book of Personal and Home Computing". It has an article and the commented source of Palo Alto Tiny Basic, for 8080 and Z-80 by Li-Chen Wang. It is version 3 and is later then the one printed in an early Dr. Dobbs. Is this what you've found? -Dave From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 16 14:50:25 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <19990316194300.7042.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199903162050.MAA11037@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Heck, "standard sized BASIC" came in 4K, 8K, and 12K variants. Hi Eric A friend once had an old MDS800. He had no disk but did have a paper tape reader. He actually loaded a 12K Basic from paper tape. Ahaa, for the good old days. Dwight From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Mar 16 14:36:36 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@pgen.com's message of Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:38:58 +0000 References: <80256736.00618A18.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199903162036.MAA06299@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > I think Leo Computers may be regarded as the world's first > commercial computer manufacturer. But I don't think they existed as > early as the '40s. I think the original LEO project was early '50s, > and Leo Computers (as a manufacturer) mid '50s and later. But I'm > not sure... > Anyone care to add to the above? Correct my mistakes? Etc.? There's a recent book: LEO: The Incredible Story of the World's First Business Computer by David Caminer (ed.), John Aris, Peter Hermon, Frank Land published by McGraw-Hill, December 1997 ISBN 0-07-009501-9 Basically, yes, they realized that automation of their data processing was a desirable thing, and a survey of the market for such machines in 1949 or so forced them to conclude that if they wanted it done in any reasonable time they would have to do it themselves. So they did, and they ended up with a computer that was pretty good at doing what Lyons needed done. BTW, the people who wrote and edited this book are the people who designed and built LEO: it's really a collection of their writings about their work. Reading it I had the impression that Caminer went around and darn near forcibly extracted a chapter from everyone he could. I gather the machine had some sort of support for doing arithmetic on pre-decimalized currency, does anyone here know what that looked like? It wasn't explained very well in the book. -Frank McConnell From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 16 15:11:02 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990316122659.24b70cd6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199903162111.NAA11046@civic.hal.com> Dave Dameron wrote: > See if you can find the book "PCC's Reference book of Personal and Home > Computing". It has an article and the commented source of Palo Alto Tiny > Basic, for 8080 and Z-80 by Li-Chen Wang. It is version 3 and is later then > the one printed in an early Dr. Dobbs. > Is this what you've found? > -Dave Hi Dave This is the one I found. It seems quite similar to the version I have. It has been quite helpful on filling in info. The book as a hole doesn't have much other than the listing. The PROMs I have were specifically tuned to work with the Poly88 ( a S-100, 8080 machine, credited as being the first front panel-less S-100 machine, two switches, power and reset but no turbo ). The place Sellam mentioned has a file ( tbas-cod.zip ) that has all kinds of programs and an assembly listing for an extended TBI that was on his machine. It was an Altair 8800 so for those that have these, here is a ready to run version ( adapted from vers 1.0 ). All good fun! Dwight From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 16 15:18:42 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: [GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18] (fwd) Message-ID: ALERT! Large VAX in danger of hitting the dumpster! Contact information follows. (please do not reply to the list) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:11:56 -0500 From: Jason Scott Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18 My company is decommissioning a VAX 8650 with Expansion Unit and while the current plan is to throw the thing into the dump, if there are souls out there who want one of these things for Nostalgia, Spare Parts, or to drop out of a plane, give me a holler at (781)-393-3283 and we'll talk. Or, mail to jason@snuh.com works just as well. If you think you can stop by with a Toyota and put this thing in the trunk, you don't want it. Vax 8650's are the size of large meat lockers and you'll need at least a truck to pick it up. The power needs are beyond imagining. The only real use for these things are spare parts or some sick project I can't think of, but I can't bear to not take at least a try at finding them a home. The VAXen are located in Medford, MA, just about 5 miles north of Boston, off Route 93. We're throwing the things out Thursday Night (March 18) so act fast. First call and show, first serve. Thanks! - Jason Scott From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Mar 16 15:23:19 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18 (fwd) Message-ID: Yo, cats: Hedz Up! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: (fwd) GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18 From: Jason Scott Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:11:56 -0500 Organization: The Information Access Center Lines: 18 My company is decommissioning a VAX 8650 with Expansion Unit and while the current plan is to throw the thing into the dump, if there are souls out there who want one of these things for Nostalgia, Spare Parts, or to drop out of a plane, give me a holler at (781)-393-3283 and we'll talk. Or, mail to jason@snuh.com works just as well. If you think you can stop by with a Toyota and put this thing in the trunk, you don't want it. Vax 8650's are the size of large meat lockers and you'll need at least a truck to pick it up. The power needs are beyond imagining. The only real use for these things are spare parts or some sick project I can't think of, but I can't bear to not take at least a try at finding them a home. The VAXen are located in Medford, MA, just about 5 miles north of Boston, off Route 93. We're throwing the things out Thursday Night (March 18) so act fast. First call and show, first serve. Thanks! - Jason Scott From donm at cts.com Tue Mar 16 15:29:42 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <19990316194300.7042.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > I did a search of the net for Tiny Basic and only found > > references to the history of Tiny Basic and some site > > that had something called Tiny Basic that was only 7K! > > I guess they missed the point, it ain't tiny unless it > > is smaller than 2K. Lets get real, 7K is only 1K smaller > > than 8K which is a standard sized basic. > > Heck, "standard sized BASIC" came in 4K, 8K, and 12K variants. > IIRC, those were the memory sizes needed to run them and still > have at least a small amount of memory left over for your > program. Volume 2 of the CPMUG lists a Tinybasic at 3k. The docs run 12k. - don > But yes, if 7K is considered "Tiny BASIC", I should write a > 6K "Miniscule BASIC"! > > I guess it's just a symptom of the general software inflation that has > occurred. Everything has become bloated and inefficient. > > That "Tiny BASIC" isn't written in C++, by any chance? :-) > From donm at cts.com Tue Mar 16 15:40:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Lance, > > At 04:53 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Well, I finally picked up that HP 85 today, it's in remarkably good > >nick, the problem everyone here has mentioned about the rubber roller - > >no problem, it's in perfect order (probably got something to do with > >Tassie's frigid weather). Came with two cartridges plugged into the > >back: > > > >82903A 16k memory module > >82936A rom drawer - on this, two "drawers" occupied - 0085-15004 MATRIX > >& 0085-15-005 ADVANCED PGRM > > > >Unfortunately, no tapes or manuals.... will see what I can find > >manual-wise on the World Wide wait. > > Check www.ebbsoft.com. > > > >But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? > > They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. Don't you mean 3M DC-100? - don > Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 18:09:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: H-11 paper tapes was Re: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <36EE8FB5.24EE2989@rain.org> References: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316180948.2317f958@intellistar.net> At 09:07 AM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote: >John Foust wrote: >> >> At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: >> > >> >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, >> >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] >> >> Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) Hmmm, I just got an original HeathKit box with new and unused paper tapes for the H 11. I wonder what they'd bring? Joe From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 16 16:13:16 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) I did, but I've seen it before. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 18:23:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:04 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-86 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316182355.0ccfabcc@intellistar.net> I just picked up an Intel MCS-86 Microcomputer System Prototype Kit today. It has a bunch of ICs in it and an Intel Product Description booklet. Does anyone know if there are any instructions for this or is the PD book all that came with them? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 18:27:16 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: DC-100 tapes Re: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316182716.2f07808c@intellistar.net> At 01:40 PM 3/16/99 -0800, you wrote: >> > >> >But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? >> >> They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. > >Don't you mean 3M DC-100? Oops, yes. From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 16 16:24:06 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >I don't get it, explain slowly please. In Windows 95, the MS-DOS file system is used for backwards compatibility, but the engineers decided to implement long filenames. They do this by using adjacent entries in the file allocation table for the same file. So, while DOS sees 8 characters, and 3 in the extension, as usual, Windows 95 knows to check the following entries for the rest of the filename (this means that less files can be stored in the root directory, BTW). But in MS-DOS, you can't see the full filename, so Micros~1 decided to do something else: they take the first six characters of the filename, append a ~1. If the ~1 is taken, it appends a ~2 instead, and so on. So, if I make a file called 'Microsoft Internet Files.doc' in Windows 95 and then try to look at it in MS-DOS, it will simply say Micros~1.doc. Of course, since MS-DOS isn't case-sensitive, it should really be MICROS~1.DOC. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From ss at allegro.com Tue Mar 16 16:25:23 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: looking for an Exidy In-Reply-To: <01be6fe2$71d30760$d1c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <199903162225.OAA21602@bart.allegro.com> Mike writes: > Can someone please help me out... I just got my Exidy s-100 expansion box > for the Sorcerer. Now, all I need is the Sorcerer. ;) > Will someone please sell me one? Or me? (I bid on it too!) :) Stan From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Mar 16 19:36:20 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! Message-ID: <01be7016$8f3d4020$b29ba6d1@the-general> Does anyone on this vast earth know the jumper settings for a MiniScribe 3438 hard drive??? I've searched EVERYWHERE, and found the following: - It is either MFM or RLL - It is either 32 or 22 MB - It is either 5.25 HH or 3.5" FH. Of the sites I've found, one says that it's RLL, another says it's MFM. Another site says it's both. Between the sites, one said it was 22 MB, the other two said 32. One of the sites said that it was a 5.25" HH drive, and the last said that it was a FH 3.5" (is there even such a thing?). Other than the fact that it's 5.25" HH, I know NOTHING (useful) about this drive. The jumper settings seem to have vanished, along with the physical drive specs. Help!.... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 16 16:44:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <199903161950.LAA09550@oa.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:50:29 -0800 (PST)) References: <199903161950.LAA09550@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <19990316224420.8191.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Anybody know how large the BASIC is on the Tandy Pocket Computer series? > I heard 4K. Well, no two of them are alike, so there's not a simple answer. The PC1 through PC3 (and maybe some other models) were made by Sharp, and are equivalent to the Sharp PC1211, PC1500, and PC1261, IIRC. The PC1 used two four-bit single-chip micros, so there's no way to tell. The PC2 used a Sharp LH5801 eight-bit micro, and definitely had more than 4K of ROM. I think it has 16K, but I'm not completely certain. Many of the later ones were made by Casio. Remember that by 1982 or so, masked ROM was fairly cheap, so there was little reason for them to try to keep it under 4K or even 8K. Instead they were competing on features. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 16 16:45:11 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 16, 99 05:24:06 pm Message-ID: <199903162245.OAA11657@saul5.u.washington.edu> Max Eskin wrote: > In Windows 95, the MS-DOS file system is used for backwards compatibility, > but the engineers decided to implement long filenames. They do this by > using adjacent entries in the file allocation table for the same file. So, > while DOS sees 8 characters, and 3 in the extension, as usual, Windows 95 > knows to check the following entries for the rest of the filename (this > means that less files can be stored in the root directory, BTW). But in > MS-DOS, you can't see the full filename, so Micros~1 decided to do > something else: they take the first six characters of the filename, append > a ~1. If the ~1 is taken, it appends a ~2 instead, and so on. So, if I > make a file called 'Microsoft Internet Files.doc' in Windows 95 and then > try to look at it in MS-DOS, it will simply say Micros~1.doc. Of course, > since MS-DOS isn't case-sensitive, it should really be MICROS~1.DOC. I think a friend of mine helped write the Win95 filesystem code (though it may have been NT). I'm sure he put a LOT of work in. Too bad the results are so ungainly. Correct me if I'm wrong... they need to store the DOS "short" file name, followed by the Win95 "long" file name (possibly taking up several directory entries). Is it ONLY adjacency that ties the two names together? No wonder they can be separated. When Win95 had just come out, I amused myself by running the disk utilities that came with it. I got some very alarming error messages, things like: The following file may have lost its long filename: C:\WINDOWS\SOL.EXE If this is the correct long filename, click OK. Otherwise, click Cancel: c:\windows\system32\bubbles.bmp I'm making it up, but not completely. I do remember SOL.EXE and BUBBLES.BMP wre involved in one case. Then there's the problem of the disk utilities *starting over again*, seemingly at random. The defragmentation program would be happily scanning C: and then it would put up a notice ("I need to start again") and then redo everything it had done until then. This could happen a couple of times in a row. I should also mention that the extra directory entires need to be hidden from DOS. Get this. They are marked as *volume labels*. There's only supposed to be one, and obviously DOS ignored the others instead of complaining. (Before Windows, I mean.) This is especially shameful since there are actually a couple of unused attribute bits that MS could legitimately have used! And is it true that the LFNs are stored in Unicode? -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 16 16:50:55 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:52:46) References: <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990316225055.8253.qmail@brouhaha.com> > They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. No, I've tried DECtapes. It takes a lot of force to get them into the slot, and they don't seem to work. :-) For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. I think Joe is saying that the 85 needs the same cartridge tapes as the DEC TU58 "DECtape II" drive, as commonly found on the PDP-11/44, VAX-11/750, and other early-80s DEC machines. Despite the moniker, there is almost nothing in common between DECtape and DECtape II. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 16 16:15:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <199903162050.MAA11037@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 16, 99 12:50:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/604b125d/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Tue Mar 16 16:46:32 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-86 Message-ID: <01be6ffe$d6df7e60$c9c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >I just picked up an Intel MCS-86 Microcomputer System Prototype Kit today. >It has a bunch of ICs in it and an Intel Product Description booklet. Does >anyone know if there are any instructions for this or is the PD book all >that came with them? Hi Joe, I just got one myself... it came with four pieces of documentation: 1. SDK-86 MCS-86 System Design Kit User's Guide 2. SDK-86 MCS-86 System Design Kit Monitor Listings 3. SDK-86 MCD-86 System Design Kit Assembly Manual 4. 9 pages of schematics - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 16 17:04:15 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <199903162245.OAA11657@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 16, 99 02:45:11 pm Message-ID: <199903162304.PAA10554@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990316/aa96699c/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 16 17:10:01 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <19990316225055.8253.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. > > No, I've tried DECtapes. It takes a lot of force to get them into the > slot, and they don't seem to work. :-) > > For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. Ummm... almost... four inch reels of 1 inch tape... (I have a lot of them... and the drives... and the computers they run on...) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cdrmool at interlog.com Tue Mar 16 05:10:40 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! In-Reply-To: <01be7016$8f3d4020$b29ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19990316061040.00732928@mail.interlog.com> Jason, the only thing I can find off hand states that the 3438 was a) a 32.7mg drive. 615 cyls, 4 heads, 26 sectors, b)that it is a 32mg ST-506 RLL and that it was 612 cyls(!!!). The former was from Mueller's "Upgrading and Repairing PC's" and the latter was from Minasi's "PC Upgrade and Maintenance Guide". Nothing on jumper settings. Do you have a date on the drive? That might help me dig through my pile O' stuff. Colan At 05:36 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Does anyone on this vast earth know the jumper settings for a MiniScribe >3438 hard drive??? > >I've searched EVERYWHERE, and found the following: > >- It is either MFM or RLL >- It is either 32 or 22 MB >- It is either 5.25 HH or 3.5" FH. > >Of the sites I've found, one says that it's RLL, another says it's MFM. >Another site says it's both. Between the sites, one said it was 22 MB, the >other two said 32. One of the sites said that it was a 5.25" HH drive, and >the last said that it was a FH 3.5" (is there even such a thing?). > >Other than the fact that it's 5.25" HH, I know NOTHING (useful) about this >drive. The jumper settings seem to have vanished, along with the physical >drive specs. > >Help!.... >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > > From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 16 17:27:07 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: <199903162245.OAA11657@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >*starting over again*, seemingly at random. The defragmentation program >would be happily scanning C: and then it would put up a notice ("I need to >start again") and then redo everything it had done until then. This could >happen a couple of times in a row. The reason for this is disk accesses. If you moved the mouse, and it tried to swap in some tooltip code, that would restart the utility. After screwing up my system quite severely several times with Norton Utilities, Defrag, etc. I've resolved never to fiddle with Windows again. The thing is, I once stopped Defrag, by clicking the stop button, saying yes, etc. It must have forgotten to flush the buffer, since half the hard drive's contents vanished. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From donm at cts.com Tue Mar 16 17:41:11 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! In-Reply-To: <01be7016$8f3d4020$b29ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > Does anyone on this vast earth know the jumper settings for a MiniScribe > 3438 hard drive??? ______O/_________ O\ This should answer your questions. - don ************************************************************ Miniscribe Disk Drive Specifications For Model: 3438 ************************************************************ FORM FACTOR 5.25 inch HH INTERFACE ST412/ST506 DATA ENCODING METHOD 2,7 RLL DATA TRANSFER RATE (Mbit/Sec) 7.5 DISK DRIVE CHARACTERISTICS HEADS 4 CYLINDERS 615 SECTORS/TRACK (512 Byte Sectors) 26 WRITE PRECOMPENSATION CYLINDER 128 REDUCED WRITE CURRENT CYLINDER 615 MINIMUM STEP PULSE RATE (micro-Seconds) 2 UNFORMATTED BYTES/TRACK 15,625 RADIAL TRACK DENSITY (TPI) 588 ROTATIONAL SPEED (RPM) 3,600 UNFORMATTED CAPACITY (Millions of Bytes) 38.4 FORMATTED CAPACITY (Millions of Bytes) 32.7 FORMATTED CAPACITY (MB = 1,048,576 Bytes) 31.2 ACCESS TIMES (mSec)* SINGLE TRACK 15 ONE-THIRD STROKE** 85 MAXIMUM 190 *(BASED ON A 2 MICRO-SECOND STEP RATE) *(INCLUDES SETTLING) **(APPROXIMATION OF AVERAGE) POWER REQUIREMENTS DISSIPATION (Watts) TYPICAL 14.5 MAXIMUM 17.4 CURRENT (Amps) +5 V DC (+ or - 5%) 0.5 +12 V DC (+ or - 5%) 1.0 MAXIMUM STARTUP CURRENT 3.5 PHYSICAL DIMENSIONS HEIGHT (in) 1.625 WIDTH (in) 5.75 DEPTH (in) 8 WEIGHT (lbs) 2.2 OPERATIVE ENVIRONMENTAL LIMITS MINIMUM TEMPERATURE (Centigrade) 4 MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE (Centigrade) 50 THERMAL GRADIENT (Degrees C/Hour) 10 RELIABILITY MTBF (Hours) 20,000 MTTR (Minutes) 30 COMPONENT DESIGN LIFE (Years) 5 ************************************************** 3212 3412 3425/3438 ------ ------ ----------- PIN 1 PIN 1 PIN 1 ON/OFF CLOSED / NU 1 CLOSED / NU 1 ON / NU OFF CLOSED / TEST 2 CLOSED / TEST 2 ON / TEST OFF CLOSED / TEST 3 CLOSED / TEST 3 ON / TEST OFF CLOSED / TEST 4 CLOSED / TEST 4 ON / TEST ON OPEN / DS 4 5 OPEN / DS 4 5 OFF / DS 4 ON OPEN / DS 3 6 OPEN / DS 3 6 OFF / DS 3 ON OPEN / DS 2 7 OPEN / DS 2 * 7 OFF / DS 2 OFF CLOSED / DS 1 8 CLOSED / DS 1 * 8 ON / DS 1 SHUNT SHUNT SWITCH * NOTE: If twisted cable or second drive,7 & 8 are switched;7 on-8 off. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 16 17:43:30 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 16, 99 06:27:07 pm Message-ID: <199903162343.PAA13068@saul5.u.washington.edu> Max Eskin wrote: > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > >*starting over again*, seemingly at random. The defragmentation program > >would be happily scanning C: and then it would put up a notice ("I need to > >start again") and then redo everything it had done until then. This could > >happen a couple of times in a row. > The reason for this is disk accesses. If you moved the mouse, and it tried > to swap in some tooltip code, that would restart the utility. After > screwing up my system quite severely several times with Norton Utilities, > Defrag, etc. I've resolved never to fiddle with Windows again. The thing > is, I once stopped Defrag, by clicking the stop button, saying yes, etc. > It must have forgotten to flush the buffer, since half the hard drive's > contents vanished. I suspected you would say something like that. Cameron said something similar. That only makes me more willing to do what I was going to do before -- blame the OS. Why is it swapping in so much code? Or, can't the disk utilities do something to take control of the OS while they're fiddling with the low-level disk bits? I'll admit that I haven't seen an OS that allows you to do things AND safely tweak the disks. Maybe one of the logging file systems? My point is that I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's a difficult problem to solve. ...of course, MS always seems to solve these things especially badly... -- Derek From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 16 17:58:00 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903162358.PAA11100@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >So? A decent paper tape reader will do 700 cps. Hi I don't recall the read speed but it was something on the order of 15-20 mins to load. 700 cps sounds a little high to me. As I recall, the holes are about 1/8th inch apart, making that ~7.3 feet per second, I don't remember anything with paper tape going that fast. Mylar tape maybe? Are you sure it wasn't 700 cpm? Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 16 18:17:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: VMS architects Message-ID: <199903170017.AA21550@world.std.com> <>So I guess Dave Cutler was there from the beginning of VMS development. < >So? A decent paper tape reader will do 700 cps. < from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 16, 99 03:58:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1014 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/b1846edb/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Mar 16 22:04:13 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! Message-ID: <01be702b$3790e560$909ba6d1@the-general> I don't have a date on it. The only thing that I really know about it is that it was pulled from a "TURBO-XT", manufactured by Wibles Computer Corporation. The drive has a sticker on it that says COMPUTRS, INC. (not a typo) 201-492-1229 2736 (this is stamped on) REMOVAL VOIDS WARRANTY The XT was probably from around 85-89. It is identical to an IBM XT (even has an IBM branded floppy), other than the badge saying "IBM" on the front, it says "WIBLES". -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: cdrmool@interlog.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 3:15 PM Subject: Re: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! > >Jason, the only thing I can find off hand states that the 3438 was a) a >32.7mg drive. 615 cyls, 4 heads, 26 sectors, b)that it is a 32mg ST-506 >RLL and that it was 612 cyls(!!!). The former was from Mueller's >"Upgrading and Repairing PC's" and the latter was from Minasi's "PC Upgrade >and Maintenance Guide". >Nothing on jumper settings. Do you have a date on the drive? That might >help me dig through my pile O' stuff. > >Colan > > >At 05:36 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> Does anyone on this vast earth know the jumper settings for a MiniScribe >>3438 hard drive??? >> >>I've searched EVERYWHERE, and found the following: >> >>- It is either MFM or RLL >>- It is either 32 or 22 MB >>- It is either 5.25 HH or 3.5" FH. >> >>Of the sites I've found, one says that it's RLL, another says it's MFM. >>Another site says it's both. Between the sites, one said it was 22 MB, the >>other two said 32. One of the sites said that it was a 5.25" HH drive, and >>the last said that it was a FH 3.5" (is there even such a thing?). >> >>Other than the fact that it's 5.25" HH, I know NOTHING (useful) about this >>drive. The jumper settings seem to have vanished, along with the physical >>drive specs. >> >>Help!.... >>-- >> -Jason Willgruber >> (roblwill@usaor.net) >> ICQ#: 1730318 >> >> >> >> > From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Mar 16 22:06:02 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! Message-ID: <01be702b$78b6c0a0$909ba6d1@the-general> O.K. I found that. There's still the conflict of wether it is RLL or MFM, though. I guess I'll try it with the RLL controller that I have... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 3:44 PM Subject: Re: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! >On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > >> Does anyone on this vast earth know the jumper settings for a MiniScribe >> 3438 hard drive??? > >______O/_________ > O\ > >This should answer your questions. > - don > > ************************************************************ > Miniscribe Disk Drive Specifications > For > Model: 3438 > ************************************************************ > > FORM FACTOR 5.25 inch HH > INTERFACE ST412/ST506 > DATA ENCODING METHOD 2,7 RLL > DATA TRANSFER RATE (Mbit/Sec) 7.5 > > DISK DRIVE CHARACTERISTICS > HEADS 4 > CYLINDERS 615 > SECTORS/TRACK (512 Byte Sectors) 26 > WRITE PRECOMPENSATION CYLINDER 128 > REDUCED WRITE CURRENT CYLINDER 615 > MINIMUM STEP PULSE RATE (micro-Seconds) 2 > UNFORMATTED BYTES/TRACK 15,625 > RADIAL TRACK DENSITY (TPI) 588 > ROTATIONAL SPEED (RPM) 3,600 > UNFORMATTED CAPACITY (Millions of Bytes) 38.4 > FORMATTED CAPACITY (Millions of Bytes) 32.7 > FORMATTED CAPACITY (MB = 1,048,576 Bytes) 31.2 > > ACCESS TIMES (mSec)* > SINGLE TRACK 15 > ONE-THIRD STROKE** 85 > MAXIMUM 190 > *(BASED ON A 2 MICRO-SECOND STEP RATE) > *(INCLUDES SETTLING) > **(APPROXIMATION OF AVERAGE) > > POWER REQUIREMENTS > DISSIPATION (Watts) > TYPICAL 14.5 > MAXIMUM 17.4 > CURRENT (Amps) > +5 V DC (+ or - 5%) 0.5 > +12 V DC (+ or - 5%) 1.0 > MAXIMUM STARTUP CURRENT 3.5 > > PHYSICAL DIMENSIONS > HEIGHT (in) 1.625 > WIDTH (in) 5.75 > DEPTH (in) 8 > WEIGHT (lbs) 2.2 > > OPERATIVE ENVIRONMENTAL LIMITS > MINIMUM TEMPERATURE (Centigrade) 4 > MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE (Centigrade) 50 > THERMAL GRADIENT (Degrees C/Hour) 10 > > RELIABILITY > MTBF (Hours) 20,000 > MTTR (Minutes) 30 > COMPONENT DESIGN LIFE (Years) 5 > > ************************************************** > > 3212 3412 3425/3438 > ------ ------ ----------- > >PIN 1 PIN 1 PIN 1 >ON/OFF CLOSED / NU 1 CLOSED / NU 1 ON / NU >OFF CLOSED / TEST 2 CLOSED / TEST 2 ON / TEST >OFF CLOSED / TEST 3 CLOSED / TEST 3 ON / TEST >OFF CLOSED / TEST 4 CLOSED / TEST 4 ON / TEST >ON OPEN / DS 4 5 OPEN / DS 4 5 OFF / DS 4 >ON OPEN / DS 3 6 OPEN / DS 3 6 OFF / DS 3 >ON OPEN / DS 2 7 OPEN / DS 2 * 7 OFF / DS 2 >OFF CLOSED / DS 1 8 CLOSED / DS 1 * 8 ON / DS 1 > SHUNT SHUNT SWITCH >* NOTE: If twisted cable or second drive,7 & 8 are switched;7 on-8 off. > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 16 19:17:04 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: James Willing "Re: HP 85 & a bit more." (Mar 16, 15:10) References: Message-ID: <9903170117.ZM18763@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 16, 15:10, James Willing wrote: > On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. > > Ummm... almost... four inch reels of 1 inch tape... I can play this game too :-) Nope, DECtape is 3/4" tape, and if I were really nitpicky I'd say they were a little under 4" diameter. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 21:29:16 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <19990316225055.8253.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19990316095246.3ebf20f4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316212916.3bef20fe@intellistar.net> At 10:50 PM 3/16/99 -0000, you wrote: >> They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. > >No, I've tried DECtapes. It takes a lot of force to get them into the >slot, and they don't seem to work. :-) > >For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. > >I think Joe is saying that the 85 needs the same cartridge tapes as the DEC >TU58 "DECtape II" drive, as commonly found on the PDP-11/44, VAX-11/750, and >other early-80s DEC machines. Despite the moniker, there is almost nothing in >common between DECtape and DECtape II. You may be right about the DEC stuff but the tapes that I have (about 20 of them) only say DECtape and they definitely fit the 9815, 9825, 9915, 85, etc. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 21:31:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-86 In-Reply-To: <01be6ffe$d6df7e60$c9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316213125.3bef1890@intellistar.net> Mike, Thanks, I thought two of the ICs were EPROMs and probably contained a monitor program. Could you make a copy of the docs for me or are they too big? Joe At 05:46 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe > >>I just picked up an Intel MCS-86 Microcomputer System Prototype Kit today. >>It has a bunch of ICs in it and an Intel Product Description booklet. Does >>anyone know if there are any instructions for this or is the PD book all >>that came with them? > >Hi Joe, > >I just got one myself... it came with four pieces of documentation: > > 1. SDK-86 MCS-86 System Design Kit User's Guide > 2. SDK-86 MCS-86 System Design Kit Monitor Listings > 3. SDK-86 MCD-86 System Design Kit Assembly Manual > 4. 9 pages of schematics > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 16 19:35:09 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <9903170117.ZM18763@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990316173509.00b2f1c0@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:17 AM 3/17/99 GMT, you wrote: >On Mar 16, 15:10, James Willing wrote: >> On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. >> >> Ummm... almost... four inch reels of 1 inch tape... > >I can play this game too :-) Nope, DECtape is 3/4" tape, and if I were >really nitpicky I'd say they were a little under 4" diameter. Ok... being home now where I can get my hands on it... 3 13/16 inch reel, and 3/4 inch tape... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 16 19:40:38 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) References: <199903161712.JAA00192@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36EF0816.42CBC458@rain.org> Derek Peschel wrote: > > Marvin wrote: > > of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers > > (late 40's, early 50's)? > > You mean Lyons, the people who produced the LEO? I think it was the first > commercially sold computer; it was a cleaned-up version of one of the > British research machines (Manchester Mark I? EDSAC?). Hmmm, now I am going to have to check it out. Both the punched cards and the stationary say Leo Computers LTD. The address on the stationary is: Leo Computers LTD Hartree House 151A-159A Queensway London W.2 It also lists the directors as A.H.L. Salmon, J.R.M. Simmons, T.R. Thompson, A.B Barnes, D.T. Caminer, J.M.M. Pinkerton. I guess it is possible there was another Leo Computers. Anyone know what the story is? From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 16 19:12:57 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990316182355.0ccfabcc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 16 19:15:53 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >>I don't get it, explain slowly please. > >In Windows 95, the MS-DOS file system is used for backwards compatibility, >but the engineers decided to implement long filenames. They do this by >using adjacent entries in the file allocation table for the same file. So, >while DOS sees 8 characters, and 3 in the extension, as usual, Windows 95 >knows to check the following entries for the rest of the filename (this >means that less files can be stored in the root directory, BTW). But in >MS-DOS, you can't see the full filename, so Micros~1 decided to do >something else: they take the first six characters of the filename, append >a ~1. If the ~1 is taken, it appends a ~2 instead, and so on. So, if I >make a file called 'Microsoft Internet Files.doc' in Windows 95 and then >try to look at it in MS-DOS, it will simply say Micros~1.doc. Of course, >since MS-DOS isn't case-sensitive, it should really be MICROS~1.DOC. Gee, thats not funny, its kinda sad. People really use this thing called Windows 95? Thats illogical. ;) From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 16 19:50:24 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) References: Message-ID: <36EF0A60.2F1965FB@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time > > :). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just > > to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted > > with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet > > of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers > > (late 40's, early 50's)? > > Of course not :) But please explain. 40s and 50s?? I think Phil already did a good job of explaining. I thought I had read somewhere that the Leo Computer was developed in the 40's, and I *thought* it was also being sold by the end of the 40's. But I can't recall where I read it. Oh well, I'll run across it again ... sometime :)! From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 16 19:54:43 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) References: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <36EF0B63.837AFF46@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >I guess it is time to auction off some punch cards now ... one at a time > >:). Actually, I am toying around with putting one punch card on ebay just > >to see what would happen. It is a bit unusual though in that it is imprinted > >with "Leo Computers", and just to keep it a set, perhaps putting one sheet > >of original Leo Computers stationary. Anyone here remember Leo Computers > >(late 40's, early 50's)? > > Don't forget to say its ** RARE ** Actually, I suspect it really is somewhat rare. Has anyone else heard of more cards and stationary existing? From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 16 19:50:51 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:29:16 . <3.0.1.16.19990316212916.3bef20fe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: In message <3.0.1.16.19990316212916.3bef20fe@intellistar.net>, Joe writes: >At 10:50 PM 3/16/99 -0000, you wrote: >>> They're made for the old 3M DC-1000 tapes, DEC tapes work great. >> >>No, I've tried DECtapes. It takes a lot of force to get them into the >>slot, and they don't seem to work. :-) >> >>For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. >> >>I think Joe is saying that the 85 needs the same cartridge tapes as the DEC >>TU58 "DECtape II" drive, as commonly found on the PDP-11/44, VAX-11/750, and >>other early-80s DEC machines. Despite the moniker, there is almost >nothing in >>common between DECtape and DECtape II. > > You may be right about the DEC stuff but the tapes that I have (about 20 >of them) only say DECtape and they definitely fit the 9815, 9825, 9915, 85, >etc. A couple of points: On the almost nothing they have in common... Physically, they don't, and they don't really have much in common in terms of the tracks on the tape. But they've got a unique feature in common. They are used in a way that are block addressable, like a disk. In fact Thompson's first UNIX on the PDP-7 used the original DECtape as it's primary storage. On the use of DECtape IIs for the HP-85 and 9800 series... Please don't. As much as I love my HPs, I desperately keep any DECtape IIs I have for use with DEC stuff. The DECtape IIs are formatted at the factory and I know of no way to format them with controllers in the field. (I'd love to be proved wrong about that, BTW.) So I (and I'm sure others) would be grateful if DECtape IIs could be saved for use with TU-58s. Brian L. Stuart From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 16 20:00:35 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: DC-100 tapes Re: HP 85 & a bit more. Message-ID: <004b01be701a$0d120d20$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> They are actally in the same casing as the DC2000 and DC2080 and if you can find the TPI you could probably find a compatible media. Occular inspection showed that the DC Tapes are wider than the HP tape. This is about the only info I can provide at this point since the HP 85 manual doesn't give any physical caracteristics. Francois >>> >But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 16 22:19:16 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990316221916.3bbf138e@intellistar.net> At 07:50 PM 3/16/99 -0600, you wrote: >A couple of points: > >On the almost nothing they have in common... Physically, they >don't, and they don't really have much in common in terms of the >tracks on the tape. But they've got a unique feature in common. >They are used in a way that are block addressable, like a disk. >In fact Thompson's first UNIX on the PDP-7 used the original >DECtape as it's primary storage. > >On the use of DECtape IIs for the HP-85 and 9800 series... Please >don't. As much as I love my HPs, I desperately keep any DECtape IIs >I have for use with DEC stuff. The DECtape IIs are formatted at >the factory and I know of no way to format them with controllers >in the field. (I'd love to be proved wrong about that, BTW.) So >I (and I'm sure others) would be grateful if DECtape IIs could be >saved for use with TU-58s. Brian, I appreciate your feelings for the DECtapes but I offered them on this list and no one was interested. FWIW the HP tapes suck! The media flakes off of even the new ones. I never had that probelm with DECtapes. Joe From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Mar 16 20:31:42 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650|DECcie nostalgia digression.. References: Message-ID: <36EF140E.B1FAE719@banet.net> Damn! I wish I had the space for it!! From my DEC days, I remember the 8650 as a member of the first VAXcluster we had in the datacenter.. IIRC, the cluster was named (for you ex & current DECcies) the PATS cluster (the system manager was a football fan), and each node got named after a current or former player on the New England Patriots... Nodenames being Morgan, Grogan, and Fryar.. There was another one, but I'll be damned if I can remember, anyway, Morgan was, IIRC an 8700, Fryar was an 8650, and GROGAN started out as an 11/750, later upgraded to an 8600.. Fryar lived up to it's namesake, not because it was a problematical product, but because it got "drop shipped" on it's way to the Maynard (Ma) Mill.. Sorry, I digress with a little nostalgia.... Disclamer: References to any players or teams performances, in the NFL, past or present, in this post, are strictly my own opinion. Will John Lawson wrote: > > Yo, cats: Hedz Up! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Subject: (fwd) GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18 > > From: Jason Scott > Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec > Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA by Mar. 18 > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:11:56 -0500 > Organization: The Information Access Center > Lines: 18 > > My company is decommissioning a VAX 8650 with Expansion Unit and while > the current plan is to throw the thing into the dump, if there are > souls out there who want one of these things for Nostalgia, Spare Parts, > or to drop out of a plane, give me a holler at (781)-393-3283 and we'll > talk. Or, mail to jason@snuh.com works just as well. > > If you think you can stop by with a Toyota and put this thing in the > trunk, you don't want it. Vax 8650's are the size of large meat lockers > and you'll need at least a truck to pick it up. The power needs are > beyond imagining. The only real use for these things are spare parts > or some sick project I can't think of, but I can't bear to not take > at least a try at finding them a home. > > The VAXen are located in Medford, MA, just about 5 miles north of > Boston, off Route 93. We're throwing the things out Thursday Night > (March 18) so act fast. First call and show, first serve. Thanks! > > - Jason Scott From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 16 20:35:09 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. Message-ID: <199903170235.AA07570@world.std.com> >(I have a lot of them... and the drives... and the computers they run >on...) B^} Same here... (well, as of this saturday I will -- the machines, I mean). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Mar 16 20:43:52 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. Message-ID: <019201be7020$20f564d0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I saved some of the HP tapes from the scrapper. Looking at them I found an HP Part number you may want to check out. 98200A (5 cartridges) If you were in the US I would send you a bunch for the shipping. If anyone else needs some let me know. I know some have varios utilities and who knows what else on them. I just grabbed a couple to get part # from and compare to the DECTAPE II cart. and yes they look the same. Dan >Well, I finally picked up that HP 85 today, it's in remarkably good >nick, the problem everyone here has mentioned about the rubber roller - >no problem, it's in perfect order (probably got something to do with >Tassie's frigid weather). Came with two cartridges plugged into the >back: > >82903A 16k memory module >82936A rom drawer - on this, two "drawers" occupied - 0085-15004 MATRIX >& 0085-15-005 ADVANCED PGRM > >Unfortunately, no tapes or manuals.... will see what I can find >manual-wise on the World Wide wait. > >But can someone tell me what sort of tape the thing uses ? > > >And secondly, to ease my withdrawal symptoms having bought no Commodore >stuff for at least two weeks A Commodore PC5 (my first PC was >one of these), yet another 128D & three MPS 803 printers..... got my >Commie fix for the week, so I should be able to make it through until >next payday :-) > >cheers, > > Lance > > From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 16 21:14:49 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316091905.00cea980@vpwisfirewall> References: <3.0.3.32.19990314083157.010fc510@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990316220947.00a0d300@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:19 AM 3/16/99 -0600, John Foust said something like: >At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: >> >>Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, >>paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] > >Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) Isn't that a hoot! Over on the Greenkeys (Teletype) reflector a few of us got a chuckle out of it. The seller calls it "Ticker Tape" :) Looks quite like 1" paper tape for an ASR33 or Friden Flexowriter. One comment was that it looked dried out (ASR33 paper tape is lightly oiled to lube the punch.) $17? Sheesh. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From museum at techniche.com Tue Mar 16 21:21:24 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: looking for an Exidy Message-ID: <199903170321.WAA21211@chmls05.mediaone.net> So Mike, You're not getting real attached to this thing are you? I was gonna try and trade you for it !! How come you're not play with your ***2*** brand new Sym-1's instead ??? I'm scheduled to pick up my MMD's on Sunday. Jon ................................................................................ >Can someone please help me out... I just got my Exidy s-100 expansion box >for the Sorcerer. Now, all I need is the Sorcerer. ;) >Will someone please sell me one? > >Thanks >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 16 21:28:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. Message-ID: <199903170328.AA16887@world.std.com> As a user of TU58, the tapes are better than most. I have at least three operational on PDP-11s. At 256k/drive/tape they are small but the serial interface is easy to use(with anything). DECTAPE is a generic DECism for small tapes. Tu55/56 the 3/4" tape on reels Most PDP-n before 1973ish Tu60 phillips digital cassette PDP-8, PDP-11 mostly TU58 DC100 cartridge, DEC unique format. PDP-11, VAX730, VAX750 I'd love to have a TU55/56 Dectape (the open reel style). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 16 21:27:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:05 2005 Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650|DECcie nostalgia digression.. Message-ID: <199903170327.AA16755@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 16, 1999 10:27:51 PM Message-ID: <199903170337.UAA17602@calico.litterbox.com> > Key comments cluster... some of the notable clusters in DEC fame was the > VIDEO cluster and the Royalt (all six chars max) (REX, pauper, pawn) > and of course Millrat(millrat, millstn, millrot) and the DEC-10 cluster > MARKET (this was a FTP site too). > > Allison > Gee. Most interesting clusternode name I was responsible for was BOXER. After the horse in Animal Farm. This machine was the batch job and printer node, and they objected when I called it SLAVE. First VMS box I ever named wound up with two names - Monalisa was its TCP name, and ABYSS was its decnet name because of the 6 character limit in decnet. You get one guess each as to what books I was reading and what movies I was watching at the time. :) For reference, when I get it going, my 3100's name will be Tabby. As in tabby.litterbox.com. It's sort of a running joke that all my servers have cat names. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mallison at konnections.com Tue Mar 16 21:49:04 1999 From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Commodore SX 64 for sale Message-ID: <199903170337.UAA04307@mail.konnections.com> Hey folks... I have this SX 64 layng around that I really can't use. I don't need YET ANOTHER DIFFERENT SYSTEM (YADS). It has all the kit including the keyboard cord and a copy of GEOS. I can't do much with it except boot GEOS. Seems to be okay. (I only say that because I don't rightly know, since I have no other software). Only physical problem is a loose, but not broken, handle attachment. I know it's "worth" between $1 and $300 depending on how badly your perceived need. I'll be glad to let it go for $75 + shipping, unless someone wants a tax writeoff and wants to spend $300.00 (please talk to your accountant first). I'm sure it's probably Y2K compatible just incase you want to run some critical monitoring system on it. Email me off line if you want to play. mallison@konnections.com If you're in Northern Utah, Wendover (UT, NV) or Evanston WY I'll deliver the bad boy for free.... -Mike From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Mar 16 21:46:22 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. Message-ID: <004c01be7028$b9f81a80$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> >> >> Well, Micros~1 assures us that they have a stable server operating > ^^^^^^^^ > >Didn't anyone else realize how clever that was? :) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com I did and it's going to be featured on a sweatshirt right below TUX and above "just say no!" no later than thursday. Francois From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Tue Mar 16 22:01:06 1999 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990317150106.0076526c@cts.canberra.edu.au> Hello All, At 08:06 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: >O.K. I found that. There's still the conflict of wether it is RLL or MFM, >though. I guess I'll try it with the RLL controller that I have... I thought there was no such thing as a MFM or RLL *drive*. I thought that you only had MFM or RLL *controllers*. The important thing on the hard drive was the *interface* (in the case of the MiniScribe 3438, a ST412/ST506 interface). I seem to have a dim memory of RLL controllers being sold as a way to increase (double?) your disk space. As I remember, RLL controllers were much more fussy about cable length and media quality than MFM controllers, which meant that they didn't work all that well with cheap hard drives. Of course, I could be completely wrong... Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads | | Client Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |___________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| |scott@cts.canberra.edu.au| http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From lundo at interport.net Tue Mar 16 22:25:44 1999 From: lundo at interport.net (Robert Lund) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX Message-ID: <9903169216.AA921644244@mail.postperfect.com> James Willing wrote: > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, John Foust wrote: > > At 01:52 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > >Hey! Who you callin' a newbie :) In the timeline of data entry so far, > > >paper tape and toggle switches are most certainly medeival. [sic] > > > > Hey, there's a roll of paper tape for sale on eBay, current bid $17... :-) > > GORT?!? Looks like its time to start offering paper tape in the 'Computer > Garage' store... Rolls? After a coupla years handling rolls of that oily stuff that the ASR-33's used to feed/eat, I was glad to get hold of the fan-folded stuff for the rack-mounted readers. My best system used a Plessey R/P which could read 300 cps. Used a rubber roller, no sprockets, detecting holes optically. I've got a bunch of plastic trays with fan-folded tapes stashed away somewhere in storage. Now if only I'd saved all those holes for a lower Broadway parade! -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Robert Lund | Out here on the perimeter there are no stars + + lundo@interport.net | Out here we is stoned - Immaculate + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From g at kurico.com Tue Mar 16 22:25:56 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: PAGING: Marvin Message-ID: Hey Marvin, drop me a line. If my normal email isn't working, try gcurrie@acuity.com. George From at258 at osfn.org Tue Mar 16 22:45:41 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <19990316225055.8253.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > No, I've tried DECtapes. It takes a lot of force to get them into the > slot, and they don't seem to work. :-) You probably aren't usuing a large enough hammer....:) M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From donm at cts.com Wed Mar 17 00:14:50 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! In-Reply-To: <01be702b$78b6c0a0$909ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > O.K. I found that. There's still the conflict of wether it is RLL or MFM, > though. I guess I'll try it with the RLL controller that I have... > -- What's the question? The specs say it is RLL and 32mb. There was also a 3425 that had identical specs EXCEPT that it had 17 spt and 20mb and was MFM. - don > > INTERFACE ST412/ST506 > > DATA ENCODING METHOD 2,7 RLL From donm at cts.com Wed Mar 17 00:31:57 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990317150106.0076526c@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Scott McLauchlan wrote: > Hello All, > > At 08:06 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: > >O.K. I found that. There's still the conflict of wether it is RLL or MFM, > >though. I guess I'll try it with the RLL controller that I have... > > I thought there was no such thing as a MFM or RLL *drive*. I thought that That is sort of true. Amongst ST-412/506 interface drives, there were RLL capable and MFM capable. Essentially, all RLL capable drives could be used with an MFM controller. However not all MFM capable drives could be used successfully with an RLL controller. As a matter of (sloppy) shorthand, folks refer to RLL and MFM drives. - don > you only had MFM or RLL *controllers*. The important thing on the hard > drive was the *interface* (in the case of the MiniScribe 3438, a > ST412/ST506 interface). > I seem to have a dim memory of RLL controllers being sold as a way to > increase (double?) your disk space. > > As I remember, RLL controllers were much more fussy about cable length and > media quality than MFM controllers, which meant that they didn't work all > that well with cheap hard drives. > > Of course, I could be completely wrong... > > Regards, > > | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads | > | Client Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | > | University of Canberra |___________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| > |scott@cts.canberra.edu.au| http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Mar 17 01:34:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... Message-ID: <4.1.19990316233412.00ac7d80@mcmanis.com> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 01:32:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316233412.00ac7d80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >From Edupage: > > COMING TO TERMS WITH BYTES > Computer terminology is becoming more precise: the International > Electrotechnical Commission, which creates standards for electronic > technologies, is adopting new prefixes to describe data values. The new > term "kibibyte" will more accurately describe the number of bytes in a > kilobyte -- rather than being 1,000, as could be inferred by the prefix > "kilo," a kilobyte actually has 1,024 (2 to the 10th power) bytes. The > metric prefixes currently employed -- kilo, mega, giga, etc. -- > accumulate as a power of 10, rather than the binary system used in > computer code. Thus, the Commission will use kibi, mebi, gibi, tebi , > pebi and exbi to express exponentially increasing binary multiples (2 to > the 10th power, 2 to the 20th power, etc.). "There was a need to > straighten this out," says Barry Taylor of the National Institute of > Standards and Technology. > (Science 12 Mar 99) Great, let's solve an annoying but minor issue with a majorly annoying and hard to pronounce prefix system. Whoever came up with these should be dragged out into the middle of the street and beat with a crowbar. They obviously watch too many children's television shows. I don't know where else one would come up with such stupid prefixes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Mar 17 01:35:14 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316233412.00ac7d80@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 16, 1999 11:34:33 PM Message-ID: <199903170735.AAA18460@calico.litterbox.com> > > >From Edupage: > > COMING TO TERMS WITH BYTES > Computer terminology is becoming more precise: the International > Electrotechnical Commission, which creates standards for electronic > technologies, is adopting new prefixes to describe data values. The new > term "kibibyte" will more accurately describe the number of bytes in a > kilobyte -- rather than being 1,000, as could be inferred by the prefix > "kilo," a kilobyte actually has 1,024 (2 to the 10th power) bytes. The > metric prefixes currently employed -- kilo, mega, giga, etc. -- > accumulate as a power of 10, rather than the binary system used in > computer code. Thus, the Commission will use kibi, mebi, gibi, tebi , > pebi and exbi to express exponentially increasing binary multiples (2 to > the 10th power, 2 to the 20th power, etc.). "There was a need to > straighten this out," says Barry Taylor of the National Institute of > Standards and Technology. > (Science 12 Mar 99) > > This IS a joke, right? I mean, these people wouldn't come up with something so unpronouncable for real... right? I mean, it sounds like something off the old Children's Television Workshop show "Zoom", where they had a "language" very like pig latin consisting of adding "bi" to each english syllable. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 17 01:47:30 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... Message-ID: <04a001be704a$6a14ee40$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 17 March 1999 6:57 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... >>From Edupage: > >COMING TO TERMS WITH BYTES (Much deleted) PLEASE tell me this is an early April Fool's day joke...... Aghast...... Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From hhacker at home.com Wed Mar 17 02:17:29 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... Message-ID: <0b6401be704e$9a1574d0$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> "Thus, the Commission will use kibi, mebi, gibi, tebi, pebi and exbi ..." Sam: Commission members should be "beaten" with a crowbar! Jim: If it ISN'T a joke, GOD save us all! Geoff: It seems more like the joke which the late Frank Zappa played upon his childred, by naming them Dwezel, Moon, and Ahmet. Given the propensity of "commissions" to fowl all things up, I would not be surprised to find that this is for real, as in some kind of suggestion, to be hashed-out by means of the common Request For Comments (or RFC). We are all certain to agree that the real problem with using kilo, etc. is the ignorance of the public, especially those in the US. For instance, only the physics and chemistry communities in the US understand the SI (the metric system), and so, only they can intelligently translate from base ten to base two arithmetic. This is not to suggest that all such persons actually do such translations: only that they alone in the US are so capable. Second is the tendency for manufacturers to do such translations for the purposes of marketing. That is why so many hard disk drives are touted as having 10.8GB of available storage, instead of 10.0GB. That is, 10.8GB base ten as opposed to 10.0GB base two. It makes the disk drive look larger than it really is, at least to the purchasing public. You see, this was not always the case. In the past, all such references were base two. However, if you translate to base ten, while your competition remained base two, then your products appeared to provide a bigger store for the buck. Clearly, it should be possible for the "commission" to find better, more distictive, and easier to pronounce alternatives. Chuck: Is it possible for you to provide more information as to the identities of the "commission" members? William R. Buckley From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Mar 17 04:09:33 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: VMS architects In-Reply-To: <199903170017.AA21550@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903171009.UAA04395@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 19:17 16/03/99 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >Never said he wan't there... His pride and joy was RSX-11, which was the >foundation for the VMS filesystem. Wats forgotten is the VMS was originally >loaded with 16bit code mostly for the utilities but some in the core. this >was part of the roll out as the VAX-11/780 could execute PDP-11 code >directly. I remember the "good old days" when most of what we ran on our 11/780 was -11 code. Time dims the memory, but I seem to recall that the only non -11 thing we ran was FORTRAN. Most other things such as DTR-11, backup and so on we used -11 documentation to find out how it was put together. In fact, looking at the book shelves here at home I spy a DTR-11 manual! >The blue ribbon committe was comprized of chief and principle engineers >and while they spec'ed the whole project and planned a great deal they >didn't "write all the code". Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Just looking at the small amount of VMS source code that I've studied closely shows the hands of about 10 different programmers. People should try to read the source code for the VMS scheduler and also the fancy code used to turn Virtual Memory on (this isn't trivial...) >It was a far larger organization that did >that. Same was true for hardware. By the early '80s the design of the >VAX and VMS was reduced to a DEC STD... n All vaxen were based off that >as was VMS. Indeed, one of the best things about VAX/VMS was the close ties between the hardware design and the software, although with hindsight, some of the instructions were a waste of time, the INDEX instruction immediately comes to mind.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From tim at thereviewguide.com Wed Mar 17 04:59:41 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards In-Reply-To: References: <36EE8EDA.809DA38A@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Mar 16, 99 09:03:22 am Message-ID: <199903171059.CAA26314@geocities.com> > Any board that you need to read from (which means just about any board) > won't work in slot 8 unless it is modified to assert the appropriate > signal (pin B8 IIRC) during read cycles. Interesting... I haven't heard of that before. Was there a reason for this, or was it like most of the IBM PC: mindless PCB designs for $3K? > -tony Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 17 06:27:12 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: looking for an Exidy Message-ID: <01be7071$7c0880e0$cbc962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Jon >How come you're not play with your ***2*** brand new >Sym-1's instead ??? Who said I wasn't? ;) From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 17 07:26:40 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > >From Edupage: > > > > COMING TO TERMS WITH BYTES > > Computer terminology is becoming more precise: the International > > Electrotechnical Commission, which creates standards for electronic > > technologies, is adopting new prefixes to describe data values. The new > > term "kibibyte" will more accurately describe the number of bytes in a > > kilobyte -- rather than being 1,000, as could be inferred by the prefix > > "kilo," a kilobyte actually has 1,024 (2 to the 10th power) bytes. The > > metric prefixes currently employed -- kilo, mega, giga, etc. -- > > accumulate as a power of 10, rather than the binary system used in > > computer code. Thus, the Commission will use kibi, mebi, gibi, tebi , > > pebi and exbi to express exponentially increasing binary multiples (2 to > > the 10th power, 2 to the 20th power, etc.). "There was a need to > > straighten this out," says Barry Taylor of the National Institute of > > Standards and Technology. > > (Science 12 Mar 99) > > Great, let's solve an annoying but minor issue with a majorly annoying and > hard to pronounce prefix system. Whoever came up with these should be > dragged out into the middle of the street and beat with a crowbar. They > obviously watch too many children's television shows. I don't know where > else one would come up with such stupid prefixes. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com You can borrow mine, but I get to watch... From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 17 08:09:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: HDC controller documentation Message-ID: <001b01be707f$cf728920$4d483cd1@fuj03> A couple of days ago I published a list of mass storage controllers I've got available. It turns out I have documents to go with the following. MSC (later called XEBEC) 9305 GPIB-ST506 HDC for 1 drive. MSC (later called XEBEC) 9391 S-100-ST506 HDC for 2 drives on double height S-100 board XCOMP S-100 HDC for 8" (SA1000-Series) drives. Two board set called "STS" INTEL iSBC 215 "Universal" Fixed Disk Controller with on-board 8089 intelligent I/O controller the remainder are still without documents. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/4eb527fa/attachment.html From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Mar 17 08:43:24 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: <80256737.00518A69.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > I gather the machine had some sort of support for doing arithmetic on > pre-decimalized currency, does anyone here know what that looked like? > It wasn't explained very well in the book. I don't know how the currency was handled on Leo, but as a reference for our American friends I shall say a few words on British currency prior to 1971. The basic unit was the pound. The symbol was the same as nowadays, viz. a scripty capital L with two horizontal bars through it (though often only one bar is written, for speed) On e-mail I generally use an ordinary L for pound (L stands for Livre (french = pound)) King Offa (?9th century) fixed the value of a penny at 1/240 of a pound. Later the shilling was fixed at 12 pence. (Pence is the plural of penny, in case you hadn't worked it out. "Pennies" is a word coined much more recently (pun intended)) So L1 = 20 s. (s stands for solidus (lat. = a silver coin of some sort) or sou (Fr. = a coin worth not a lot)) 1 s. = 12 d. (d stands for denarius (lat. = penny) or denier (fr. = penny)) Halfpence (pronounced ha'pence) were in use until 1969 (and re-introduced with decimalisation in 1971). Farthings (1/4 d) were in use at least until the mid 1940s, and may have been required for Leo. So to computerise the currency you probably need: A field for whole pounds A field for shillings (up to 19 with a carry at 20) A field for pence (up to 11 with a carry at 12) A field for farthings or ha'pence (up to the obvious numbers thereof) It would not likely be possible to ignore the fractions of pence, since even as late as the 1950s 1/2 d had a reasonable purchasing power, perhaps equivalent to one US dime today. Also, just as they do today, vendors loved prices ending ...nineteen shillings and elevenpence ha'penny. Philip. From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 17 09:10:31 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > O.K. I found that. There's still the conflict of wether it is RLL or MFM, > > though. I guess I'll try it with the RLL controller that I have... > > What's the question? The specs say it is RLL and 32mb. There was also a > 3425 that had identical specs EXCEPT that it had 17 spt and 20mb and was > MFM. > > > INTERFACE ST412/ST506 > > > DATA ENCODING METHOD 2,7 RLL The difference between MFM and RLL drives is like the difference between single-sided and double-sided 5.25" 40 track diskettes. Physically identical, but the higher capacity item has been certified to function with the additional storage capacity. A Seagate ST-225 and ST-238 (for example) differ only in the label. An ST-225 on an RLL controller holds 30 Mbytes instead of 20, but Seagate will not warrant that operation and if you lose data, tough cookies. In the same way an ST-238 on an MFM controller only formats out to 20 Mbytes. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 17 09:16:49 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316233412.00ac7d80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990317091649.00f8f100@vpwisfirewall> At 11:34 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > >COMING TO TERMS WITH BYTES >Computer terminology is becoming more precise: the International >Electrotechnical Commission, which creates standards for electronic >technologies, is adopting new prefixes to describe data values. The new >term "kibibyte" will more accurately describe the number of bytes in a >kilobyte -- rather than being 1,000, as could be inferred by the prefix >"kilo," a kilobyte actually has 1,024 (2 to the 10th power) bytes. Hmm, I get it - the "lo" in "kilobyte == 1,000" meant it was a bit low, and the "bi" means it's binary. - John From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Mar 17 09:34:59 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316233412.00ac7d80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990317073459.00948e40@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:34 16-03-1999 -0800, you wrote: >>From Edupage: > >COMING TO TERMS WITH BYTES That has got to be the DUMBest idea I've seen come along in years! Are we sure this isn't one of the (in)famous Urban Legends? I'm going to see if I can get in touch with NIST today to try and verify or disprove it. I agree with others -- it sounds like something straight out of a kid's nonsense vocabulary. Specifically, it sounds like something straight out of either 'Barney' or the 'Teletubbies.' You don't want to get me started about either. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 17 09:42:01 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990317073459.00948e40@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Mar 17, 99 07:34:59 am Message-ID: <199903171542.HAA11549@saul6.u.washington.edu> Bruce Lane wrote: > That has got to be the DUMBest idea I've seen come along in years! > > Are we sure this isn't one of the (in)famous Urban Legends? I'm pretty sure, since I've seen it debated in other places with a certain amount of seriousness and zeal. It's not being made up just to torment people -- it's a genuine proposal. > I'm going to see if I can get in touch with NIST today to try and verify > or disprove it. I agree with others -- it sounds like something straight > out of a kid's nonsense vocabulary. Specifically, it sounds like something > straight out of either 'Barney' or the 'Teletubbies.' Let us know what you find out. I hope that "kilobyte" won't become one of those words that instantly marks their users as classic-computer freaks. I know jargon changes, but I don't want it to change in this case. -- Derek From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Wed Mar 17 09:53:49 1999 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... Message-ID: <19990317095319.db2d18d3dc1d11d2be710000e80dc880.in@insidermarketing.com> > Bruce Lane wrote: > >> That has got to be the DUMBest idea I've seen come along in years! >> > > Let us know what you find out. I hope that "kilobyte" won't become one of > those words that instantly marks their users as classic-computer freaks. > I know jargon changes, but I don't want it to change in this case. > > -- Derek Here's one (slightly outdated) reference - but no question, it's not a joke. http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html From amirault at epix.net Wed Mar 17 10:17:21 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 References: Message-ID: <36EFD591.E12976B0@epix.net> Mike, Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? JOhn Amirault Mike Ford wrote: > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) From amirault at epix.net Wed Mar 17 10:28:59 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: [OT] NT, software reliability, and the lack thereof. References: Message-ID: <36EFD84B.14E7380F@epix.net> Hi, When something like this happens try using SCANDISK to recover the lost info on the harddrive. I compressed a harddrive and it came unmounted and I lost ALL info on it until I used my rescue disk and ran SCANDISK and found all my MISSING files right where I left them, on the harddrive. HTH. John Amirault Max Eskin wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > >*starting over again*, seemingly at random. The defragmentation program > >would be happily scanning C: and then it would put up a notice ("I need to > >start again") and then redo everything it had done until then. This could > >happen a couple of times in a row. > > The reason for this is disk accesses. If you moved the mouse, and it tried > to swap in some tooltip code, that would restart the utility. After > screwing up my system quite severely several times with Norton Utilities, > Defrag, etc. I've resolved never to fiddle with Windows again. The thing > is, I once stopped Defrag, by clicking the stop button, saying yes, etc. > It must have forgotten to flush the buffer, since half the hard drive's > contents vanished. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 17 10:30:07 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> A quick web search turned up the following links on the Leo Computer: Leo Computers Society http://www.man.ac.uk/Science_Engineering/CHSTM/leo/ Leo Computer Archives http://www.man.ac.uk/Science_Engineering/CHSTM/contents/leo.htm The Bulletin of the British Conservation Society http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/resect/resw02.html Note: There is a transcription of a talk by John Pinkerton titled "Designing a Computer for Data Processing. From emu at ecubics.com Wed Mar 17 10:54:37 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 Message-ID: <19990317165348.AAA25129@1Cust29.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Mike Ford > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apollo 400 > Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:12 PM > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) Are this the same as a HP300 Model 425 ? thanks emanuel From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 10:56:55 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <199903171542.HAA11549@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Let us know what you find out. I hope that "kilobyte" won't become one of > those words that instantly marks their users as classic-computer freaks. > I know jargon changes, but I don't want it to change in this case. Well, here's a simple solution: anything suffixed with "byte", ie. kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte, terrabyte...is automatically a base-2 value. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From max82 at surfree.com Wed Mar 17 10:56:39 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Great, let's solve an annoying but minor issue with a majorly annoying and >hard to pronounce prefix system. Whoever came up with these should be >dragged out into the middle of the street and beat with a crowbar. They >obviously watch too many children's television shows. I don't know where >else one would come up with such stupid prefixes. Actually, besides the stupid-sounding prefixes, I think it is a good idea. There are a lot of consumers confused by the 1000 vs. 1024 issue, as are manufacturers and marketers. I think it might be better to have adopted a logarithmic system where a prefix is used to indicate the power of two. However, I can't currently think of any names for these prefixes that wouldn't sound profoundly stupid. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 17 11:01:46 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <199903171542.HAA11549@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Considering the level of success that National Bureau of Standards had with conversion of the U.S. over to metric, just how effective do you think they would be at adoption of these BARNEY-BYTES? From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Mar 17 11:23:51 1999 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... Message-ID: >> Well, here's a simple solution: anything suffixed with "byte", ie. >> kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte, terrabyte...is automatically a base-2 value. well I thought that was the accepted standard anyway?? :) has all of this not come about because of hard disk manufacturers deciding at some point along the line to quote disk sizes in decimal megabytes rather than actual megabytes in order to make their disks seem to have a greater capacity compared to those of their rivals?? (ie. 200Mb = 209715200 bytes = 210 "decimal" megabytes) cheers Jules From ss at allegro.com Wed Mar 17 11:28:40 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <19990317165348.AAA25129@1Cust29.tnt22.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <199903171728.JAA20240@bart.allegro.com> emanual asks: > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > > Are this the same as a HP300 Model 425 ? You mean: are they the same as the HP 9000/425? AFAIK, yes. There's been at least two "HP 300" computers ... neither are related to any PA-RISC based HP computers nor to any Apollo computers: HP 300 (circa 1978) CISC computer the size of a small filing cabinet, with built-in monitor. (I want one!) HP 300LX (very recent), a Windows CE machine. What may be confusing you is the HP 9000/300, which is a 68000 based HP-UX machine from the (early?) 1980s. From max82 at surfree.com Wed Mar 17 11:51:20 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >Considering the level of success that National Bureau of Standards had >with conversion of the U.S. over to metric, just how effective do you >think they would be at adoption of these BARNEY-BYTES? Yes, indeed. Perhaps we'll see Rev. Jerry Fallwell declare the tibibyte gay because it is represented by Tinkie-Winkie at IEEE conferences? In fact, that's a good idea. Perhaps we'll be seeing dancing teletubbies on our television screens showing off the new Pentium XII processor? But no. Somehow, I envision Apple being 'innovative' once more and taking the first step in the adoption of this standard. Imagine Steve Jobs coming on stage hand-in-hand with Barney and declaring the new G4 workstation 'complete with 128 mebibytes of RAM'. As I said, it's not a bad idea, except the names are just too ridiculous. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Wed Mar 17 11:51:33 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > There wasa also a 5162 PC. We've got a couple of them. Does anyone know > > how they were set up? full height or half height floppies? Any hard drives? > > IIRC the 5162 is the XT model 286. It's a 286 motherboard built to fit > into an XT case (and remarkably similar electrically to the PC/AT board). > IIRC it was the only IBM PC (as opposed to PS/2) to use SIMMs. I think this was the first IBM product to use SIMMs, but I could be wrong. The rumor was that IBM had a bunch of left-over parts, including 8MHz 80286s and XT cases, so they decided to patch together a machine that would use the parts. The 5162 also supported 720K and 1.44MB floppies, but a kludge is required to poke the 1.44 diskette type into the CMOS cuz the AT diag software doesn't support it. Most of the 5162s went to IBMers and we still get calls from retired IBMers who are looking for software or want to fix them up and give them to family members. > > The standard drives IIRC were a half-height 1.2Mbyte floppy in the left > bay and a 20Mbyte full-height ST506 drive in the right bay. The > controller was the later (not so tall) version of the AT controller. > > -tony > -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 17 14:22:47 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <80256737.00518A69.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990317142247.4fef2fb8@intellistar.net> At 02:43 PM 3/17/99 +0000, you wrote: > > >> I gather the machine had some sort of support for doing arithmetic on >> pre-decimalized currency, does anyone here know what that looked like? >> It wasn't explained very well in the book. > > >I don't know how the currency was handled on Leo, but as a reference for our >American friends I shall say a few words on British currency prior to 1971. > >The basic unit was the pound. The symbol was the same as nowadays, viz. a >scripty capital L with two horizontal bars through it (though often only one bar >is written, for speed) On e-mail I generally use an ordinary L for pound (L >stands for Livre (french = pound)) > >King Offa (?9th century) fixed the value of a penny at 1/240 of a pound. Later >the shilling was fixed at 12 pence. (Pence is the plural of penny, in case you >hadn't worked it out. "Pennies" is a word coined much more recently (pun >intended)) > >So L1 = 20 s. (s stands for solidus (lat. = a silver coin of some sort) or sou >(Fr. = a coin worth not a lot)) > >1 s. = 12 d. (d stands for denarius (lat. = penny) or denier (fr. = penny)) > >Halfpence (pronounced ha'pence) were in use until 1969 (and re-introduced with >decimalisation in 1971). >Farthings (1/4 d) were in use at least until the mid 1940s, and may have been >required for Leo. > >So to computerise the currency you probably need: > >A field for whole pounds >A field for shillings (up to 19 with a carry at 20) >A field for pence (up to 11 with a carry at 12) >A field for farthings or ha'pence (up to the obvious numbers thereof) > >It would not likely be possible to ignore the fractions of pence, since even as >late as the 1950s 1/2 d had a reasonable purchasing power, perhaps equivalent to >one US dime today. > >Also, just as they do today, vendors loved prices ending ...nineteen shillings >and elevenpence ha'penny. > >Philip. No wonder Leo wanted to computerize their payroll and accounting! The math must have been a royal pain! Joe > > > > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Mar 17 12:53:39 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: <006801be70a7$786532e0$1a1fe1cf@Molly.litterbox.com> So... for those of us who haven't traveled in the UK (yet), how does it work post-1971? -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) > > >> I gather the machine had some sort of support for doing arithmetic on >> pre-decimalized currency, does anyone here know what that looked like? >> It wasn't explained very well in the book. > > >I don't know how the currency was handled on Leo, but as a reference for our >American friends I shall say a few words on British currency prior to 1971. > >The basic unit was the pound. The symbol was the same as nowadays, viz. a >scripty capital L with two horizontal bars through it (though often only one bar >is written, for speed) On e-mail I generally use an ordinary L for pound (L >stands for Livre (french = pound)) > >King Offa (?9th century) fixed the value of a penny at 1/240 of a pound. Later >the shilling was fixed at 12 pence. (Pence is the plural of penny, in case you >hadn't worked it out. "Pennies" is a word coined much more recently (pun >intended)) > >So L1 = 20 s. (s stands for solidus (lat. = a silver coin of some sort) or sou >(Fr. = a coin worth not a lot)) > >1 s. = 12 d. (d stands for denarius (lat. = penny) or denier (fr. = penny)) > >Halfpence (pronounced ha'pence) were in use until 1969 (and re-introduced with >decimalisation in 1971). >Farthings (1/4 d) were in use at least until the mid 1940s, and may have been >required for Leo. > >So to computerise the currency you probably need: > >A field for whole pounds >A field for shillings (up to 19 with a carry at 20) >A field for pence (up to 11 with a carry at 12) >A field for farthings or ha'pence (up to the obvious numbers thereof) > >It would not likely be possible to ignore the fractions of pence, since even as >late as the 1950s 1/2 d had a reasonable purchasing power, perhaps equivalent to >one US dime today. > >Also, just as they do today, vendors loved prices ending ...nineteen shillings >and elevenpence ha'penny. > >Philip. > > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 17 13:25:43 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <006801be70a7$786532e0$1a1fe1cf@Molly.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Mar 17, 99 11:53:39 am Message-ID: <199903171925.LAA22901@saul10.u.washington.edu> Jim Strickland wrote: > So... for those of us who haven't traveled in the UK (yet), how does it work > post-1971? That's much simpler. One pound is worth 100 pence (pennies). There were some transition problems. The coins said "new" on them for a while, as in "ONE NEW PENNY". People used old coins and units, whether they were equivalent (1 shilling = 1/20 pound = 5 (new) pence, so old shilling coins were useful for a while) or not (some low-value old coins were the same size as higher-value new ones). [from recent alt.folklore.computers posts] But those things aren't relevant to the average tourist or British citizen of today. It does take a microscopic amount of effort to get used to the differing terminology and a larger amount of effort to get used to the actual sizes of the coins. On the other hand, the coins are grouped in sets. Each set (of 2-3 coins) has a metal (i.e., copper, silverish, goldish, bi-metallic) and a shape (i.e., smooth edges, rough edges, seven-sided, letters on the edge). Within a set the coins start small and get big. The numerical value is printed on each coin. So everyone (including blind people) has it easy. Don't blame me if some of those qualities (bi-metallic, seven-sided) don't exist. I haven't been to England in a while. Besides, I get pound coins and franc coins mixed up. IIRC the sets don't match the "natural" breakdown of the coins' values (1p/2p/5p, 10p/20p/50p, L1/L2/L5) but the system is still very elegant. It should be a lesson to the US Mint on how to avoid making mistakes. The L1 coin also makes a really nice "plnk" sound on a counter and has a motto on the edge. And before anyone argues, I know there's no L5 coin (maybe for special occasions) but it would fit into the scheme perfectly. Now if only British postage stamps were equally exciting. ObCC: PL/I had similar facilities to cope with pounds-sterling arithmetic. Also, the Felt & Tarrant Company (producers of the Comptometer calculator) made various models with odd "bases" (sterling, hours/minutes/seconds, feet/inches/8ths, etc.) Too bad they never made all-octal or all-hex machines. -- Derek From red at bears.org Wed Mar 17 13:37:08 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <04a001be704a$6a14ee40$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > PLEASE tell me this is an early April Fool's day joke...... It's a joke, and an old one at that. This text has been circulating about the internet for several years at least, I remember reading it first in 1994, when somebody forwarded it to me. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 17 12:27:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX In-Reply-To: <9903169216.AA921644244@mail.postperfect.com> from "Robert Lund" at Mar 16, 99 11:25:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 873 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/f8fb288e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 17 12:29:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316233412.00ac7d80@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 16, 99 11:34:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1241 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/c16dc21f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 17 12:42:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: XT RAM Expansion Boards In-Reply-To: <199903171059.CAA26314@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Mar 17, 99 06:59:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 987 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/1d590882/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 17 13:15:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 with no drives? In-Reply-To: from "David Wollmann" at Mar 17, 99 11:51:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/2828c25b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 17 12:52:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <199903171542.HAA11549@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 17, 99 07:42:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/7d60df82/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Mar 17 14:26:33 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: HP21MX lurkers - question Message-ID: <00a001be70b4$7312f900$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> My 7970E just came in with a 13183 controller - offline checks work great! Yahoo! Plus the 7970E came with another 21MX E series (my fourth :) ). Here's the question... all my 2113B's and 2113E's have TWO ribbon cables going to the front panel (operator panel). My 2108A and 2109B only have one cable to the front panel. Most of my 21MX docs are for the M series and they only talk about one cable going from the system PCA to the front panel. Anyone know what the reason is for the second cable (what it does), and more importantly under what circumstances is a second cable needed? I'm hazarding a guess that it's anytime there's memory feature addons (M.E.M., Parity, Fault control, etc.). Ideas? Thanks! Jay West From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 17 15:07:45 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> Message-ID: <36F019A1.AC87A390@rain.org> Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Mar 17 15:08:59 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: <19990317095319.db2d18d3dc1d11d2be710000e80dc880.in@insider marketing.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990317155643.00a1dc90@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:53 AM 3/17/99 -0600, Larry Groebe said something like: >> Bruce Lane wrote: >> >>> That has got to be the DUMBest idea I've seen come along in years! >>> >> >> Let us know what you find out. I hope that "kilobyte" won't become one of >> those words that instantly marks their users as classic-computer freaks. >> I know jargon changes, but I don't want it to change in this case. >> >> -- Derek > >Here's one (slightly outdated) reference - but no question, it's not a joke. > >http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html Okay, upon closely reading the above referenced doc it doesn't seem such a pain in the neck after all. The sense that I get from the last sentence of the first paragraph is that both nomenclatures will be used. The familiar kilobyte, et al can still be used by us as we talk about our old stuff. The justification is rather clear as the article presents it. (IMO!) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 17 15:53:58 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Somehow, I envision Apple being 'innovative' once more and taking the > first step in the adoption of this standard. Imagine Steve Jobs coming on > stage hand-in-hand with Barney and declaring the new G4 workstation > 'complete with 128 mebibytes of RAM'. As I said, it's not a bad idea, > except the names are just too ridiculous. Nope. Barney has already signed on with MICRO~1 ! MICROS~1 sells several Barney products, and billg is a fan. So, Jobs may have to settle for the Teletubbies. Maybe one for each color of iMac? From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 17 16:00:27 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:06 2005 Subject: Tomy Tutor emulator v0.2 released Message-ID: <199903172200.OAA16736@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 917 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/f0c21265/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 17 18:27:20 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <36F019A1.AC87A390@rain.org> References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990317182720.304fd8de@intellistar.net> At 01:07 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers >Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 > >It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! Geez, Marvin, I was going to bid a buck but you've set the opening bid to $9.95! Joe > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 17 16:50:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: MiniScribe 3438 --- HELLLP!!!! In-Reply-To: <01be702b$78b6c0a0$909ba6d1@the-general> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <01be702b$78b6c0a0$909ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <19990317225054.14566.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jason Willgruber" wrote: > O.K. I found that. There's still the conflict of wether it is RLL or MFM, > though. I guess I'll try it with the RLL controller that I have... It should be usable with RLL or MFM, as indicated by the specs you quote: > > DATA ENCODING METHOD 2,7 RLL > > DATA TRANSFER RATE (Mbit/Sec) 7.5 It should also work with MFM. Although it would be possible to engineer an ST-506-interface drive to work with RLL only, in practice it would be extra work, so I don't think it was ever done. Note that many drives that are only rated for MFM actually work OK for RLL, but there is no guarantee. Rumor has it that Seagate actually put electronics in their later models to prevent the use of RLL on their MFM-rated drives, eg., the only difference between the ST-225 and ST-238 is that the latter is rated for RLL. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 17 16:53:53 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <9903170117.ZM18763@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <9903170117.ZM18763@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <19990317225353.14580.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote > For the uninitiated, DECtapes are six-inch reels of 3/4 inch (?) tape. James Willing wrote: > Ummm... almost... four inch reels of 1 inch tape... Peter Turnbull wrote: > I can play this game too :-) Nope, DECtape is 3/4" tape, and if I were > really nitpicky I'd say they were a little under 4" diameter. At least I got part of it right. :-) My point was really just that it wasn't mechanically compatible with any other kind of tape, unless you count LINCtape, which is just the same thing run in the opposite direction. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 17 17:01:04 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <199903170328.AA16887@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199903170328.AA16887@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990317230104.14617.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote > Tu55/56 the 3/4" tape on reels Most PDP-n before 1973ish And don't forget the original 555 transport, and the LINCtape. > Tu60 phillips digital cassette PDP-8, PDP-11 mostly I've never seen this referred to officially as DECtape. It was called DECcassette. Since this was not a block-addressable random access device, it is substantially less like DECtape than the TU58, and couldn't be used as a "system device" for OS/8 or RT11. > TU58 DC100 cartridge, DEC unique format. PDP-11, VAX730, VAX750 DECtape II. > I'd love to have a TU55/56 Dectape (the open reel style). My arm could be twisted to make a tape available, but it sounds like you want a transport, and they are hard to come by. I've partially completed a caching SCSI controller for the TU56 drive. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 17 17:40:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650|DECcie nostalgia digression.. Message-ID: <199903172340.AA08695@world.std.com> <> Tu60 phillips digital cassette PDP-8, PDP-11 mostly from "Mike Allison" at Mar 16, 99 08:49:04 pm Message-ID: <199903180009.QAA10222@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/a68214af/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 17 18:11:13 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Commodore SX 64 for sale In-Reply-To: <199903180009.QAA10222@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 17, 99 04:09:55 pm Message-ID: <199903180011.QAA15746@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/822af59d/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Wed Mar 17 18:20:50 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Eagles available Message-ID: A chap in the San Diego area has a couple of Eagle II's in storage. One was working when placed there about two years ago, while the second was not. He could not remember whether they were II's or IIE's, but I will check and post that information. Items are available at no cost but shipping, which could mount up as they are large and heavy. If anyone is interested, please e-mail me and I will put you in contact with him. - don From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Mar 17 19:18:10 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <36EFD591.E12976B0@epix.net> References: Message-ID: >Mike, >Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? >JOhn Amirault > >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and >> noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says >> model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are >> supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) Correct, HP Apollo 400, 25 Mhz 68040, Seagate ST12320 SCSI drives in some, no idea on memory (4 sticks of something in the one I looked in), and AUI and 10B2 ethernet. Three BNC's on a pullout I assume are for a monitor, but I didn't see any monitors and there were 35 of these Apollo's. My guess is the monitors may already be scrap, or kept. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 17 19:33:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: HP 85 & a bit more. In-Reply-To: <199903172357.AA21630@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199903172357.AA21630@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990318013357.15456.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I'd like to try working on a ECP parallel interface to one. It's mostly to > realize what I'd done in the '70s with home grown tapes based on cassette > transports trying to make something as good as DECtape! I've already got one hooked up to a parallel port, and if you run under an "operating system" that lets you disable interrupts (such as MS-DOS), it doesn't require either ECP or EPP. The drive that I was using for this experiment had seriously messed up head alignment, but now I have another drive to try. The caching SCSI controller project was just for fun, which means that it probably won't get finished. Of course, the simple way to cache a DECtape is to read the entire tape into the cache. Eric From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Wed Mar 17 19:37:04 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: FW: Media free/FS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36f0587e.279007741@smtp.jps.net> Fellow in Stamford, CT's got some DEC'ish and generic media both free and for sale. Get in contact directly if you're interested. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:44:55 -0500, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: Kelvin Smith <74654.3313@CompuServe.COM> >>Subject: Media free/FS >>Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736) >>Message-ID: >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11 >>Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:44:55 -0500 >>Lines: 23 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!isdnet!arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naaf.prod2.compuserve.com >>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:37 alt.sys.pdp11:179 >> >>The following media are available as we transition to new hardware. >>On all items, either you pick up or pay shipping from Stamford, CT. >> >>1) 7 RA60P disk packs - free. >> >>2) 5 RL02K-DC disk packs - free. >> >>3) 9-track tapes, used (offers on as many or as few as you want welcomed): >> >> 90 3600' 3M Black Watch 703 tapes, EZ-Load II cartridges, $5 or best offer. >> 100 2400' 3M Black Watch 700 tapes, EZ-Load II cartridges, $3 or B.O. >> 70 2400' tapes, various manufacturers, tape seals, $3 or B.O. >> 50 600' tapes, various manufacturers, tape seals, $1 or B.O. >> 6 600' tapes, new 3M Black Watch, tape seals, $4 or B.O. >> >>4) 2 120-tape 9-track tape racks (6 high, 20 wide): $25 each or B.O. >> Preference given to someone who also buys tapes. >> >>Kelvin Smith >>Financial Computer Systems, Inc. >>Stamford, CT >>(203) 357-0504 >>Fax: 357-8031 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Mar 17 19:45:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <36F019A1.AC87A390@rain.org> References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> Message-ID: >Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers >Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 > >It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! A couple minutes setting up a phoney @hotmail account and a few of us could have some fun bidding it up. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Mar 17 19:54:39 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990317182720.304fd8de@intellistar.net> References: <36F019A1.AC87A390@rain.org> <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> Message-ID: >At 01:07 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >>Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers >>Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 >> >>It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! > > Geez, Marvin, I was going to bid a buck but you've set the opening bid to >$9.95! Greed can be an ugly thing. ;) From amirault at epix.net Wed Mar 17 23:22:19 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 References: Message-ID: <36F08D8B.5F3F3711@epix.net> Mike, Yes the three BNC's are for the monitor and SYNC is on green. This is what I have been told. I am sorry that there are no monitors. I only have an interest in finding a monitor for the HP Apollo 400 that I have. If you buy some and decide to sell some memory I would be interested in that, but I don't need any more of these as I live in 1000 square feet. John Amirault Mike Ford wrote: > > >Mike, > >Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? > >JOhn Amirault > > > >Mike Ford wrote: > >> > >> I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > >> noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > >> model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > >> supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > > Correct, HP Apollo 400, 25 Mhz 68040, Seagate ST12320 SCSI drives in some, > no idea on memory (4 sticks of something in the one I looked in), and AUI > and 10B2 ethernet. Three BNC's on a pullout I assume are for a monitor, but > I didn't see any monitors and there were 35 of these Apollo's. My guess is > the monitors may already be scrap, or kept. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 17 20:15:20 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:52:46 +0000 (GMT) . Message-ID: In message , Tony Duell writes: >You mean like using 'binary' to mean a flip-flop circuit (old books do >this - they talk about 'the clock pulse then clears the first binary and >sets the second binary'). Back then, 'flip-flop' meant what we now call a >monostable... I'm generally loathe to question Tony's data on practical hardware matters, but this didn't sound familiar at all. How old a reference do you have that uses "flip-flop" to describe a monostable device? The oldest references I have are Terman's Electronic and Radio Engineering from 1955 and Bartee's Digital Computer Fundamentals from 1960 both published by McGraw Hill. (And no, I'm not old enough to have studied them new.) Both use the term flip-flop to describe the Eccles-Jordan type bistable multivibrator. >Suffice it to say, I am not going to change my usage of the work >'kilobyte' becase of some committee... Just as I am not celebrating the >millennium a year early either. Oh, I don't know. I kind of like the idea that those of us who know better get to celebrate twice as much by using it as an excuse to celebrate both years... Brian L. Stuart From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 17 20:27:32 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> <3.0.1.16.19990317182720.304fd8de@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36F06494.E8372C47@rain.org> Joe wrote: > > At 01:07 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers > >Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 > > > >It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! > > Geez, Marvin, I was going to bid a buck but you've set the opening bid to > $9.95! Did you see me say anywhere that I actually *wanted* to sell it :)? Actually, since I start almost everything out at that price, habbit just took over. For the most part though, I just consider this part of an educational campaign to let the buyers there know there are other computers besides Altairs! From peterutz at worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 15 21:54:30 1999 From: peterutz at worldnet.att.net (Peter Utz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 available Message-ID: <01be6f60$b1f639c0$4f1c4f0c@peterutz> Please post this in your newsletter, with responses to come to me directly at peterutz@worldnet.att.net as I am not a subscriber. LOOKING FOR A GOOD HOME I have 3 Sony SMC70 CPUs, and loads of related stuff: Boxes of cables, TV interfaces, a monitor, 64K RAM cache drive (a big deal back then), loads of software for word processing, CPM utilities, titling and graphics, and instruction books for it all (hardware and software). All 3 machines worked a year ago, but one has a couple non-operating characters on the keyboard and another has a nonfunctioning serial port.The third was perfect, but a year idle in the basement may have taken some toll. I have maybe 50 3.5" floppies for the SMC70. I'll sell the works for $200 plus postage from NJ, or will sell specific cables and books for $15 each. I used these machines from about 1980 to 1986 for word processing, television graphics, and to operate an interactive laser videodisc. They have lightpen, audiocassette, and keypad ports, along with parallel, serial ,and external devices ports and dual SSSD 3.5" floppy drives. From bmahoney at sprint.ca Wed Mar 17 22:51:56 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> Message-ID: <36F0866C.735AC5A1@sprint.ca> If anyone is interested: I did some checking on the LEO, wondering why it was not mentioned in any of my reference books. Turns out it was a 'direct copy' of the EDSAC, on which I have ample documentation. Additionally there were only 10 LEO IIs sold. The EDSAC is described as "the first large scale, fully functional, stored-program, electronic digital computer." Perhaps someone could decipher the following for me (and the group): "In 1951 the LEO I computer was operational and ran the world's first regular routine office computer job." What about the Univac 1 or the IBM 701? Brian Mahoney -- http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 17 23:06:36 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <36F06494.E8372C47@rain.org> References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990317230636.1da7ebb6@intellistar.net> At 06:27 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> At 01:07 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >> >Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers >> >Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: >> > >> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 >> > >> >It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! >> >> Geez, Marvin, I was going to bid a buck but you've set the opening bid to >> $9.95! > >Did you see me say anywhere that I actually *wanted* to sell it :)? >Actually, since I start almost everything out at that price, habbit just >took over. For the most part though, I just consider this part of an >educational campaign to let the buyers there know there are other computers >besides Altairs! I'll bet an original Leo computer would bring a pretty price on E-bay! Joe > From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Mar 17 21:35:53 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... Message-ID: <000e01be70f0$6d65c280$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Oh I will celebrate a year early but I think I'll realise my mistake the day after and have to do it all over again the next year. Oh well life is tough. Francois >Suffice it to say, I am not going to change my usage of the work >'kilobyte' becase of some committee... Just as I am not celebrating the >millennium a year early either. >-tony > From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Mar 18 00:40:43 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Speech Thing Message-ID: <01be710a$3f6a5f20$9a9ba6d1@the-general> Hi! While sorting through a box of old stuff in my basement, I ran across this little box called a "SPEECH THING" It appears to have been manufactured by Covox, Inc., around 1991. It is a small tan box, about 1.5"x2"x1/2". It's got a male DB-25 connector on one end, and a female DB-25 on the other end. It's got a 3-foot length of wire (the type that's on Walkman headsets) coming out of the side. Only problem is whatever was on the other end of that wire was chopped off. Stripping the wires, the inner wire (they're coaxial) is red on one, and white on the other. The white wire is connected to "1" and "2" on the PCB. The red wire isn't connected to anything, although there is a "3" and "4" that it looks like it could be soldered to (but never was - there's no solder on the PCB contacts). Does anyone have any idea what this thing is, what it does, or what goes on the end of the wire (I have a feeling it's some sort of plug)? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 21:47:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Somehow, I envision Apple being 'innovative' once more and taking the > > first step in the adoption of this standard. Imagine Steve Jobs coming on > > stage hand-in-hand with Barney and declaring the new G4 workstation > > 'complete with 128 mebibytes of RAM'. As I said, it's not a bad idea, > > except the names are just too ridiculous. > > Nope. Barney has already signed on with MICRO~1 ! > MICROS~1 sells several Barney products, and billg is a fan. > So, Jobs may have to settle for the Teletubbies. Maybe one for each > color of iMac? Nope! MICROS~1 already makes interactive Teletubbie dolls. Jobs will have to settle for the Bill Gates and Paul Allen doll set. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 17 21:41:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Forwarded without comment ... In-Reply-To: from "blstuart@bellsouth.net" at Mar 17, 99 08:15:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2050 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/1b22d66d/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 17 22:04:40 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <36EFD591.E12976B0@epix.net> Message-ID: I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > Mike, > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? > JOhn Amirault > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 22:08:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers > >Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 > > > >It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! > > A couple minutes setting up a phoney @hotmail account and a few of us could > have some fun bidding it up. Ebay is smarter than you. Any accounts being set up with one of the many free e-mail service providers requires a credit card to be entered at registration time. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 22:09:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >At 01:07 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: > >>Okay, I put one of the punch cards and a single piece of Leo Computers > >>Stationary up on ebay. The URL is: > >> > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79520742 > >> > >>It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens! > > > > Geez, Marvin, I was going to bid a buck but you've set the opening bid to > >$9.95! > > Greed can be an ugly thing. ;) Yeah, but some putz will actually pay that. We pimp the wares and the John's keep coming back for more. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 17 22:09:03 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <80256737.00518A69.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: Any thoughts on how they handled guineas and florins? On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > > > I gather the machine had some sort of support for doing arithmetic on > > pre-decimalized currency, does anyone here know what that looked like? > > It wasn't explained very well in the book. > > > I don't know how the currency was handled on Leo, but as a reference for our > American friends I shall say a few words on British currency prior to 1971. > > The basic unit was the pound. The symbol was the same as nowadays, viz. a > scripty capital L with two horizontal bars through it (though often only one bar > is written, for speed) On e-mail I generally use an ordinary L for pound (L > stands for Livre (french = pound)) > > King Offa (?9th century) fixed the value of a penny at 1/240 of a pound. Later > the shilling was fixed at 12 pence. (Pence is the plural of penny, in case you > hadn't worked it out. "Pennies" is a word coined much more recently (pun > intended)) > > So L1 = 20 s. (s stands for solidus (lat. = a silver coin of some sort) or sou > (Fr. = a coin worth not a lot)) > > 1 s. = 12 d. (d stands for denarius (lat. = penny) or denier (fr. = penny)) > > Halfpence (pronounced ha'pence) were in use until 1969 (and re-introduced with > decimalisation in 1971). > Farthings (1/4 d) were in use at least until the mid 1940s, and may have been > required for Leo. > > So to computerise the currency you probably need: > > A field for whole pounds > A field for shillings (up to 19 with a carry at 20) > A field for pence (up to 11 with a carry at 12) > A field for farthings or ha'pence (up to the obvious numbers thereof) > > It would not likely be possible to ignore the fractions of pence, since even as > late as the 1950s 1/2 d had a reasonable purchasing power, perhaps equivalent to > one US dime today. > > Also, just as they do today, vendors loved prices ending ...nineteen shillings > and elevenpence ha'penny. > > Philip. > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 17 22:17:11 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Speech Thing In-Reply-To: <01be710a$3f6a5f20$9a9ba6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Mar 17, 99 10:40:43 pm Message-ID: <199903180417.UAA12770@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990317/9dc66e24/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Mar 17 22:11:14 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Speech Thing In-Reply-To: <01be710a$3f6a5f20$9a9ba6d1@the-general> from Jason Willgruber at "Mar 17, 99 10:40:43 pm" Message-ID: <199903180411.XAA21545@crobin.home.org> > While sorting through a box of old stuff in my basement, I ran across this > little box called a "SPEECH THING" > > It appears to have been manufactured by Covox, Inc., around 1991. It is a > small tan box, about 1.5"x2"x1/2". It's got a male DB-25 connector on one > end, and a female DB-25 on the other end. It's got a 3-foot length of wire > (the type that's on Walkman headsets) coming out of the side. > > Only problem is whatever was on the other end of that wire was chopped off. > Stripping the wires, the inner wire (they're coaxial) is red on one, and > white on the other. The white wire is connected to "1" and "2" on the PCB. > The red wire isn't connected to anything, although there is a "3" and "4" > that it looks like it could be soldered to (but never was - there's no > solder on the PCB contacts). > > Does anyone have any idea what this thing is, what it does, or what goes on > the end of the wire (I have a feeling it's some sort of plug)? IIRC, the Speech Thing was what it sounds like, a speech synthasizer for the IBM PC. Basically, it plugged into the parallel port. The other end of the wire was probably a speaker (amplified, most likely). I seem to recall Covox being very big into speech recognizition and synthesis many years back. <<>> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 22:23:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <36F06494.E8372C47@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Did you see me say anywhere that I actually *wanted* to sell it :)? > Actually, since I start almost everything out at that price, habbit just > took over. For the most part though, I just consider this part of an > educational campaign to let the buyers there know there are other computers > besides Altairs! Whatever. You're whoring your wares like the rest of us. Trying to assign a lofty ideal to an Ebay auction is like a televangelist requesting money in the name of holy pursuits. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 17 22:24:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Did you see me say anywhere that I actually *wanted* to sell it :)? > > Actually, since I start almost everything out at that price, habbit just > > took over. For the most part though, I just consider this part of an > > educational campaign to let the buyers there know there are other computers > > besides Altairs! > > Whatever. You're whoring your wares like the rest of us. Trying to > assign a lofty ideal to an Ebay auction is like a televangelist requesting > money in the name of holy pursuits. Oops, forgot the ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From at258 at osfn.org Wed Mar 17 22:26:55 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps I'm thinking of the 300 series? Is the 400 the very large portable with its own wheels? On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. > > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > Mike, > > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? > > JOhn Amirault > > > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Mar 18 01:31:15 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Speech Thing Message-ID: <01be7111$4e97b360$9a9ba6d1@the-general> O.K. At least I know what it is. Anyone have any idea where to get software for it?? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: Speech Thing > >IIRC, the Speech Thing was what it sounds like, a speech synthasizer for >the IBM PC. Basically, it plugged into the parallel port. The other end >of the wire was probably a speaker (amplified, most likely). > >I seem to recall Covox being very big into speech recognizition and >synthesis many years back. > ><<>> > From donm at cts.com Wed Mar 17 23:00:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Eagles available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > A chap in the San Diego area has a couple of Eagle II's in storage. One > was working when placed there about two years ago, while the second was > not. He could not remember whether they were II's or IIE's, but I will > check and post that information. They are without hard disk which, IIRC, rules out IIE. - don > Items are available at no cost but shipping, which could mount up as they > are large and heavy. > > If anyone is interested, please e-mail me and I will put you in contact > with him. > - don > > > From joe at barrera.org Wed Mar 17 23:25:19 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> <3.0.1.16.19990317182720.304fd8de@intellistar.net> <36F06494.E8372C47@rain.org> Message-ID: <009101be70ff$b8990500$4001010a@joebargx1> You'd better be careful... or I'll bid $6000 on it and then eBay will kick you off. Or at least that's what they did to Sam with his IMSAI power cord. Go figure. - Joe From joe at barrera.org Wed Mar 17 23:30:40 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> <3.0.1.16.19990317182720.304fd8de@intellistar.net> <36F06494.E8372C47@rain.org> <009101be70ff$b8990500$4001010a@joebargx1> Message-ID: <00a201be7100$775217c0$4001010a@joebargx1> Sorry, Marvin, I couldn't help myself. Well, now that "a trusted collector" has bid on your punch card, you should start seeing the bids roll in... :-) (either that or I'm stuck with a $10 punch card :-) - Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph S. Barrera III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 9:25 PM Subject: Re: Leo Computers > You'd better be careful... or I'll bid $6000 on it and then eBay will kick > you off. > Or at least that's what they did to Sam with his IMSAI power cord. > Go figure. > > - Joe > > From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Mar 17 23:00:09 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400, RZ23-e RZ27? In-Reply-To: <36F08D8B.5F3F3711@epix.net> References: Message-ID: >Yes the three BNC's are for the monitor and SYNC is on green. This is >what I have been told. I am sorry that there are no monitors. I only >have an interest in finding a monitor for the HP Apollo 400 that I have. >If you buy some and decide to sell some memory I would be interested in >that, but I don't need any more of these as I live in 1000 square feet. Heck my wife, 8 year old son, and I live in about 500 square feet, trouble is before I started buying computers its was a 1850 sq ft house. ;) People talkin about them is giving me the itch for a Apollo running BSD etc. ;) I have seen the Apollo monitors around other places, but that isn't the sort of thing I would want to ship, or even lug out to the car. Shopping for Scrap The owner of the place is a friend of mine, but his prices are "moody". Scrap guys are all paranoid about finding some great item and selling it too cheap, so I get the feeling he "tests" me on prices to see if I have gotten stupid overnight. Today was entirely typical. My friend isn't around so I take a walk around the block. A couple two truckload a day operations aren't too far away, but they are hostile to anyone approaching without waving large bills. They fail to set the dogs on me, so I snoop a bit keeping 20 feet from the open rear gate. Pallets of old PCs and monitors, which do nothing for me anyway. I head for a pair of my favorite dumpsters, but too much real trash has been dumped on top of the computer stuff. Fortunately my friend arrives about then. I stroll in to pick up a bag of parts I forgot to take with me yesterday, and stay about 4 hours BSing and nosing around. One of the Apollo's was open so I looked it over noting the XC68040RC25 and wondering if it would work in a Centris 610 Macintosh, the Seagate SCSI drive I knew would work. About this time my friend hands me a couple Digital RZ27 drives, presumably I can have them if I can properly ID the rest he has, but I don't have a clue. The Digital 5 pin power connector means its a lookup not test job too, which I point out. I dig around a while longer and find a dozen or so 68882 chips with some bent pins, and pick out (3) RZ23-E and (3) 3100 3.5" Digital hard drives. Another computer guy shows up, and he nabs the RZ27 drives and pays my friend $40 each for them (providing they test OK). Over the next hour as this guy and my friend chit chat I learn more nasty stuff about local vendors than I need to know. After this is all done we start to work on some prices for what I have found (literally digging them out of a pile in the case of the 68882 chips). We don't agree on anything, not even close, so I end up not buying anything, but we both know I'll be back in a week or two. Already I am thinking about another place for tomorrow.... From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 18 00:06:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> <36EFD88F.D2D0297@rain.org> <3.0.1.16.19990317182720.304fd8de@intellistar.net> <36F06494.E8372C47@rain.org> <009101be70ff$b8990500$4001010a@joebargx1> <00a201be7100$775217c0$4001010a@joebargx1> Message-ID: <36F097EC.6823AB2A@rain.org> "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > > Sorry, Marvin, I couldn't help myself. > Well, now that "a trusted collector" has bid on your punch card, > you should start seeing the bids roll in... :-) > > (either that or I'm stuck with a $10 punch card :-) Well, I have been curious for quite a while what might happen if I put those things up on ebay. All I can say is that we can have a heck of a party at VCF III with the $2000 it might bring in :). I am still gathering stuff for the Kim-1, but it is beginning to look like I have everything that went with it now. It is interesting that at least one Kim-1 sold for about $500, and the one I have here has quite a bit more stuff with it let alone the *minor* detail that is serial number 0001. Wish it was mine, or I could afford to put out the money to keep it . From black at gco.apana.org.au Wed Mar 17 21:22:37 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: looking for an Exidy References: <199903162225.OAA21602@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: <36F0717B.1FFF3F90@gco.apana.org.au> ss@allegro.com wrote: > Mike writes: > > > Can someone please help me out... I just got my Exidy s-100 expansion box > > for the Sorcerer. Now, all I need is the Sorcerer. ;) > > Will someone please sell me one? > > Or me? (I bid on it too!) :) > > Stan Can I add a third bid ? From gram at cnct.com Thu Mar 18 01:31:24 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990317230636.1da7ebb6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 06:27 PM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Did you see me say anywhere that I actually *wanted* to sell it :)? > >Actually, since I start almost everything out at that price, habbit just > >took over. For the most part though, I just consider this part of an > >educational campaign to let the buyers there know there are other computers > >besides Altairs! > > I'll bet an original Leo computer would bring a pretty price on E-bay! And if a listmember sold it there without first offering to the members of classiccmp, that listmember would be beaten like a baby harp seal. Repeatedly. Since E-slay buyers show no evidence of giving a damn about value rather than cost. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Mar 18 00:15:13 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: References: <36EFD591.E12976B0@epix.net> Message-ID: >I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. These are deep dish pizza boxes (BIG pizza boxes), no monitors. HP model 425. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 18 03:23:46 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: HP-85's available Message-ID: <4.1.19990318010227.00b95b90@mcmanis.com> Hi All, I've got three HP-85s , two are the 'A' model and one is the 'B' model. I'm looking to sell them (or trade for PDP-8 stuff), consider this a silent auction :-) Here's the scoop: - None of them have any ROM modules. Unit #1: HP-85 Serial #2204A54765 Includes printer. It is missing the tape drive. It is missing the key cap for the 'up arrow' key. Powers up, gives "Error 23 - Self Test" (presumably, 'my tape drive is missing') Typed the standard 10 FOR I = 1 TO 10 20 DISP I 30 NEXT I 40 END Diagnostic and it works fine. Printer appears to work but I don't know how to test it. Unit #2: HP-85 Serial #2023A08736 Includes printer. It is missing the tape drive. Has all its key caps. Powers up, gives "Error 23 - Self Test" (presumably, 'my tape drive is missing') Typed the standard 10 FOR I = 1 TO 10 20 DISP I 30 NEXT I 40 END Diagnostic and it works fine. Printer appears to work but I don't know how to test it. Unit #3: HP-85B Serial #2510B49048 Includes printer. Includes the tape drive. Has all its key caps. Does NOT power up. I have verified the fuse is good but not done any other work on it. They weigh about 15 lbs each so they are pretty inexpensive to ship UPS in the continental US. Terms are basically buyer pays actual postage plus their offer amount. Auction closes at midnight 3/23/99 (Tuesday) Pacific Standard Time. I'll keep all bidders confidential and updated as to the current offer so they may revise their bid. Last update from me will be Tuesday 3/23/99 around 5PM PST. Email me (cmcmanis@mcmanis.com) if you're interested or have any questions. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 18 03:32:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: KA620 ? Message-ID: <4.1.19990318013123.00a1e500@mcmanis.com> I got a VAX CPU board and it is a KA620, what kind of VAX was that? I haven't found it in the module list yet ... ==Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 18 03:41:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: KA620 ? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990318013123.00a1e500@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990318014120.00b77ef0@mcmanis.com> Never mind, I found it (rtVAX) seems like it would be a good wall hanging ... --Chuck At 01:32 AM 3/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >I got a VAX CPU board and it is a KA620, what kind of VAX was that? I >haven't found it in the module list yet ... >==Chuck > > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 18 07:08:32 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Like the 3000? HP Apollos aren't REAL Apollos...;) On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. > > These are deep dish pizza boxes (BIG pizza boxes), no monitors. HP model 425. > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 18 07:30:19 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: KA620 ? Message-ID: <990318083019.20200313@trailing-edge.com> > I got a VAX CPU board and it is a KA620, what kind of VAX was that? I > haven't found it in the module list yet ... A KA620 is basically a KA630 without the full memory management logic. Useful for real-time embedded VAX applications, especially under VAXELN, but not supported by VMS. If you're really interested in this board, you can buy the _KA620-A CPU Module User Guide_ from DECDirect - part number EK-KA620-UG. You can still buy the VAXELN development tools from Compaq/Digital, which is the "supported" KA620 development suite, too. If you do, look forward to receiving about 600 lbs of printed manuals! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Mar 18 08:19:21 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Speech Thing Message-ID: <01be714a$50cbba80$9101eac5@tiger> I have the speech thing! It's been a long time since I fired up that baby. I used for speech synthesis and voice recognization eons ago. This was before the Sound Blaster for PCs. Let me look around and see if I still have the software... Ram -----Original Message----- From: Jason Willgruber To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 11:30 PM Subject: Re: Speech Thing >O.K. At least I know what it is. Anyone have any idea where to get >software for it?? > >ThAnX, >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Ruschmeyer >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 8:13 PM >Subject: Re: Speech Thing > > >> >>IIRC, the Speech Thing was what it sounds like, a speech synthasizer for >>the IBM PC. Basically, it plugged into the parallel port. The other end >>of the wire was probably a speaker (amplified, most likely). >> >>I seem to recall Covox being very big into speech recognizition and >>synthesis many years back. >> >><<>> >> > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 18 08:40:47 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990317230636.1da7ebb6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990318084047.00cd1670@vpwisfirewall> At 02:31 AM 3/18/99 -0500, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > Since E-slay buyers show no evidence >of giving a damn about value rather than cost. You'd think the average libertoonian would be ready to "defend the undefendable". You have some kind of magic X-ray glasses that let you determine the personal character of eBay buyers? It's considered more honorable to be able to hang out at the local junkyard for hours a day, than to hold a job that might allow you to pay a seemingly high price for an obscure item on eBay? What price convenience? What price the freedom to stay locked up in the basement of your mom's house, ordering the gizmos you always wanted? - John From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 18 09:13:11 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! Message-ID: <199903181513.HAA18088@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 591 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/aecb2287/attachment.ksh From amirault at epix.net Thu Mar 18 09:39:35 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 References: Message-ID: <36F11E37.5E03F2FC@epix.net> Merle, I would not call my HP Apollo 400 a portable by any means. It stands about 2' tall and weighs in @ about 70 pounds, which is the top end of what my doctors say I can lift and I find that trying to do this is very pain full, thank goodness for friends and hand trucks. Mine has no wheels. Mine also has a cable with three BNC connectors on each end to hook up the monitor. I have been told of a possible source for a monitor and I say thanks Sellam and I will check into it. JOhn Amirault "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > Perhaps I'm thinking of the 300 series? Is the 400 the very large > portable with its own wheels? > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. > > > > > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > Mike, > > > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? > > > JOhn Amirault > > > > > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > > > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > > > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > > > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Mar 18 09:45:28 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:07 2005 Subject: Seen on port-vax... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990318074528.0095d6f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This came in on the NetBSD port-VAX mailing list. Anyone in the MA area want a VAX 8650? -=-=- -=-=- Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:02:45 -0500 From: Matthew Hudson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i586) To: port-vax@netbsd.org Subject: free 8650 Vax in MA Sender: port-vax-owner@netbsd.org Delivered-To: port-vax@netbsd.org Subject: GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:23:50 -0500 From: Jason Scott Organization: The Information Access Center Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation My company is decommissioning a VAX 8650 with Expansion Unit and while the current plan is to throw the thing into the dump, if there are souls out there who want one of these things for Nostalgia, Spare Parts, or to drop out of a plane, give me a holler at (781)-393-3283 and we'll talk. Or, mail to jason@snuh.com works just as well. If you think you can stop by with a Toyota and put this thing in the trunk, you don't want it. Vax 8650's are the size of large meat lockers and you'll need at least a truck to pick it up. The power needs are beyond imagining. The only real use for these things are spare parts or some sick project I can't think of, but I can't bear to not take at least a try at finding them a home. The VAXen are located in Medford, MA, just about 5 miles north of Boston, off Route 93. We're throwing the things out Thursday Night (March 18) so act fast. First call and show, first serve. Thanks! - Jason Scott Thought someone might be interested in this. -Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Mar 18 09:51:42 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Votrax emulators??? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990318095142.009854e0@texas.net> Anyone know of any software that will emulate a votrax speech synthesiser? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft?? Move up to a REAL OS.... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without proportional spaced fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Mar 18 10:15:01 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: <80256738.0059E0F7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Derek Peschel wrote: > There were some transition problems. The coins said "new" on them for a > while, as in "ONE NEW PENNY". People used old coins and units, whether they > were equivalent (1 shilling = 1/20 pound = 5 (new) pence, so old shilling > coins were useful for a while) or not (some low-value old coins were the > same size as higher-value new ones). [from recent alt.folklore.computers > posts] Basically correct. The old sixpence was used as 2.5 new pence for a few years. Shillings and florins (2 s. - see below) were used as 5p and 10p coins right up until the early 1990s. The 5p and 10p coins introduced in 1968 (yes, three years _before_ decimalisation) were the same weight as the shilling and florin of the time, so this made sense. In the early '90s - I'd have to look up the exact years - smaller 5p and 10p coins were introduced, and the shillings and florins finally withdrawn. Unfortunately the new 10p is only slightly larger than a shilling, which caused some confusion. FWIW the 1p coin is the same size, weight and until recently composition as the farthing, and the 2p coin the same as the (old) halfpenny. The new halfpenny (which endured until the early 1980s) was very small. > But those things aren't relevant to the average tourist or British citizen > of today. It does take a microscopic amount of effort to get used to the > differing terminology and a larger amount of effort to get used to the > actual sizes of the coins. > > On the other hand, the coins are grouped in sets. Each set (of 2-3 coins) > has a metal (i.e., copper, silverish, goldish, bi-metallic) and a shape > (i.e., smooth edges, rough edges, seven-sided, letters on the edge). Within > a set the coins start small and get big. The numerical value is printed on > each coin. So everyone (including blind people) has it easy. > > Don't blame me if some of those qualities (bi-metallic, seven-sided) don't > exist. I haven't been to England in a while. Besides, I get pound coins > and franc coins mixed up. Metals (slightly simplified). All the coins until recently were alloys of copper and nickel. The colour was varied by changing the copper content, from about 98% for "copper" coins to ?90% for "silver". The copper coins - 1/2p, 1p, 2p have smooth edges. Originally made out of an alloy mostly copper, recent ones are steel, copper plated. The old silver coins (shilling, florin) had rough edges. The new 5p and 10p have edges slightly less rough. The 20p and 50p coins have seven sides and slightly more copper than the 5p and 10p (still silvery but the difference is just visible); the sides are smooth and curved so that the coin has a constant diameter. In 1997 the original 50p went the way of the shilling and florin, and a smaller (but otherwise identical) coin replaced it. The L1 and L2 coins are yellow in colour, twice as thick as the others and have rough edges with a motto incised into it. Since 1997, when they were first minted for general circulation, L2 coins have been bimetallic but they are the same size as the comemorative L2 coins from before. Comemorative L5 coins exist, which are confusingly the same size and silver colour as the comemorative 25p coins of the 1970s (imitating the crown = 5 shilling piece). > IIRC the sets don't match the "natural" breakdown of the coins' values > (1p/2p/5p, 10p/20p/50p, L1/L2/L5) but the system is still very elegant. It > should be a lesson to the US Mint on how to avoid making mistakes. The L1 > coin also makes a really nice "plnk" sound on a counter and has a motto on > the edge. True, since there are only 2 coins to each of what you call sets. But yes, it is a lot easier than I found the US coinage, where nickels are bigger than dimes but apparently the same metal. Having 1,2 and 5 in each decade helps, too... > And before anyone argues, I know there's no L5 coin (maybe for special > occasions) but it would fit into the scheme perfectly. I said a few years ago that the L5 note is worth no more now than the 10 shilling note was when that was withdrawn (1969?). But no regular L5 coin is forthcoming. > Now if only British postage stamps were equally exciting. There used to be a system of sorts. But it seems to have been well messed up... Stamps are not my field, I'm afraid, so I sha'n't comment. > ObCC: PL/I had similar facilities to cope with pounds-sterling arithmetic. > Also, the Felt & Tarrant Company (producers of the Comptometer calculator) > made various models with odd "bases" (sterling, hours/minutes/seconds, > feet/inches/8ths, etc.) Too bad they never made all-octal or all-hex > machines. Fun! Also ObCC (almost): as I mentioned the 20p and 50p are curves of constant diameter. Our first multi-sided coin was a 3d piece, which took over slowly from tiny silver ones in the 1930s and '40s. This had 12 sides, and was therefore not of a constant width. This meant some negotiations with slot machine (both vending and gambling) manufacturers. Some coins were minted a year early for test purposes. Then the King was forced to abdicate (over a sex scandal - plus ca change...) and a new king took the throne in the year before that printed on the coins alongside the old king's name! The coins were withdrawn and melted down, of course. A few 3d pieces bearing the name of Edward VIII still exist, however. The last one to be auctioned fetched L60 000. so I don't think that space in my collection will be filled at all soon. ***** Joe Rigdon wrote: > No wonder Leo wanted to computerize their payroll and accounting! The > math must have been a royal pain! I think it was. I was only 3 when decimalisation happened, so I never had to learn pre-decimal currency at school. I think in mediaeval times, when your total income was a couple of pounds a year, and you did all the calculation in your head, it wasn't too bad. But in the 20th century, with formal methods of decimal calculation on paper widely known, at routine calculations in hundreds of pounds, it was an anachronism. ***** M K Peirce wrote: > Any thoughts on how they handled guineas and florins? The guinea was still used as a unit for some transactions (=21 s.) but it had ceased to exist as a coin 100 years and more earlier. My guess is that for the sort of transactions that Lyons were interested in, the guinea was not used. The florin was introduced in the mid 19th century as Britain's first decimal coin - one tenth of a pound. But by the mid 20th century, florin coins all actually bore the legend "two shillings" (you Americans wouldn't be at all confused if your dimes said "ten cents", would you?), and "florin" was no more than the name of the coin. Philip. From amirault at epix.net Thu Mar 18 10:29:34 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! References: <199903181513.HAA18088@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36F129EE.6E95B3D7@epix.net> Cameron, I can get 5 1/4" low density disks all the time @ my local (30 Miles away) Salvation Army Store for about TEN CENTS each plus 8% tax plus actual shipping, they usually have programs on them and I have my Packard Bell Cyrix 300 set up with a low density drive so I can do a virus scan on each disk before I use it on my PCJr. I forgot one time and my Jr got STONED. My question to you is: How many disks do you want? I currently have two unopened boxes of ten disks each. One box is 3M the other is Verbatim, both are 360 kb when formatted. I do not know if they are formatted as the boxes don't say. The two unopened boxes are not for sale. I will find more unopened boxes probably though. John Amirault Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > See > > http://store.imation.com/ > > and Diskette Products. DD 5.25" disks! Rapturous! They even have them > for RX-50! *And* 8" disks! But be prepared to pay through the nose, of > course ... > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. -- William Blake -- From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 18 10:35:31 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) Message-ID: <01BE7133.6EC3F780.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > IIRC the sets don't match the "natural" breakdown of the coins' values > > (1p/2p/5p, 10p/20p/50p, L1/L2/L5) but the system is still very elegant. It > > should be a lesson to the US Mint on how to avoid making mistakes. The L1 > > coin also makes a really nice "plnk" sound on a counter and has a motto on > > the edge. > Think I'll change my vacation plans from Great Britain to Mexico. At least I can count their money... and speak the language. ;-) Steve Robertson - From elvey at hal.com Thu Mar 18 10:56:12 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Speech Thing In-Reply-To: <01be710a$3f6a5f20$9a9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199903181656.IAA04159@civic.hal.com> "Jason Willgruber" wrote: > > It appears to have been manufactured by Covox, Inc., around 1991. It is a > small tan box, about 1.5"x2"x1/2". It's got a male DB-25 connector on one > end, and a female DB-25 on the other end. It's got a 3-foot length of wire > (the type that's on Walkman headsets) coming out of the side. Hi Jason Covox made a number of boards to digitize sound. These were to go with there software that did voice recognition. The wires you are looking at were most likely microphone and earphone wires. I don't know if the company is still in existence but I think they were in Los Gatos, Ca. A quick check with their chamber of commerce should turn up something. I have a board someplace that would take some 10 or so words and convert them to commands that were jammed in the keyboard input. The A/D was quite cheap and most sound boards had better quality. Dwight From dogas at leading.net Thu Mar 18 07:45:50 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: looking for an Exidy Message-ID: <01be7145$a2d06100$LocalHost@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- >> > Will someone please sell me one? >> >> Or me? (I bid on it too!) :) >> Stan >> > From: Lance Lyon > Can I add a third bid ? Damn... Maybe I'll get lucky someday and be able to step in between one of Stan or Lance's attempted purchases and cost them *more* money. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 18 12:30:34 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Leo Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990318084047.00cd1670@vpwisfirewall> (message from John Foust on Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:40:47 -0600) References: <3.0.1.16.19990317230636.1da7ebb6@intellistar.net> <3.0.5.32.19990318084047.00cd1670@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <19990318183034.19751.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > Since E-slay buyers show no evidence > of giving a damn about value rather than cost. John Foust replied: > You'd think the average libertoonian would be ready to "defend the > undefendable". Hey, just because us "libertoonians" defend people's right to do whatever dumbass things they want to do in the privacy of their own home, doesn't mean that we like or approve of their actions. :-) ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. From mark_k at iname.com Thu Mar 18 11:12:23 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Dumping the Amiga 1000's boot ROM Message-ID: Hi, You may remember that I posted a message about this a while ago. Well, it turns out the the boot ROM can be made to appear on any A1000. The A-Max Mac emulator has a special bootblock which does this, in order to allow the Kickstart memory to be used under Mac emulation. (When the boot ROM is visible, the Kickstart area is writeable.) I have written a tiny program to save out the boot ROM data, in conjunction with this special bootblock. The program dumps the A1000's boot ROM (in fact the region $F00000-$FBFFFF) to disk. The actual boot ROM appears to be 64K long, and appears at (at least) $F80000- $F8FFFF and $FA0000-$FAFFFF. There is seemingly garbage at $F90000-$F9FFFF and $FB0000-$FBFFFF. My program saves the 768K from $F00000-$FBFFFF, in order to investigate what is there; the boot ROM may also appear somewhere in the $F00000-$F7FFFF region. If you want to dump your A1000's boot ROM, get this file: http://home.freeuk.net/markk/A1000_Boot_ROM_Dumper.DMS (It is 3821 bytes long.) Unpack it to a floppy disk and boot your A1000 with it, after loading Kickstart. Leave the disk write-enabled; a 768K file will be saved to it. I would be interested to see whether there are different versions of the A1000 boot ROM. If you dump yours, it would be nice if you could compress it and upload to your web space (or if that isn't possible, mail it to me). I am working on disassembling the boot ROM, and if anyone is interested I can send them the current work-in-progress. -- Mark From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Mar 18 12:36:40 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <19990318183034.19751.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Mar 18, 1999 06:30:34 pm" Message-ID: <199903181836.MAA12187@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with > that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very > biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. > So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new site yaBe.com .... -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 18 12:49:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Leo Computers Message-ID: <000601be7170$20049680$43483cd1@fuj03> I don't believe it's a seller's market. The seller has to pay Ebay regardless of whether a transaction is satisfactorily completed. They freely admit that their success rate is only about 70%. I'd be willing to bet that when a transaction falls through, it's the buyer who caused the transaction to fail, not the seller. Further, since we live in a capitalist society, it's the market that determines the value, not the utility. What I dislike about the Ebays of the world is that they take their cut from the seller in advance, and not from the transaction itself. In a real estate transaction, where you similarly have a bidding system for the right to purchase a house, and where you similarly involve one or more agents on behalf of the buyer or seller, the buyer has to put down "earnest money" indicating that he's really serious. On the web auctions, they don't generally do that. What they do, is collect a fee from the would-be seller. The real-estate guys take their money from the seller, since that's the one place where there's bound to be some money at the end of the day. In the antique computer parts market, there's no attempt to ascertain whether the purported buyer even has the funds he's bidding. They do have an escrow service which holds the buyer's money in case the seller fails to ship what was promised. Does any of this sound like an arrangement favoring the seller? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Leo Computers >Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: >> Since E-slay buyers show no evidence >> of giving a damn about value rather than cost. > >John Foust replied: >> You'd think the average libertoonian would be ready to "defend the >> undefendable". > >Hey, just because us "libertoonians" defend people's right to do whatever >dumbass things they want to do in the privacy of their own home, doesn't >mean that we like or approve of their actions. :-) > >ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with >that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very >biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Mar 18 13:05:58 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <199903181836.MAA12187@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Mar 18, 99 12:36:40 pm Message-ID: <199903181905.LAA02422@saul10.u.washington.edu> > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay Why is that, exactly? I'm not trying to disparage the Exidy, but apart from its rarity I can't tell it apart from most other EightiesBASICBoxes (tm). Is it the rarity? The fact that the Exidy was a pioneer? Did I miss something important about the machine? Admittedly, I am consciously pragmatic (avoiding things I wouldn't use or wouldn't have time for). -- Derek From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 18 13:04:21 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <000f01be7172$21f0eb40$43483cd1@fuj03> Please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:43 AM Subject: sellers market >> Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: >> >> ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with >> that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very >> biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. >> > >So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite >of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're >looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to >pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new >site yaBe.com .... > I don't know about that name, but that might be an excellent idea. Selling your stuff comes down to finding someone who wants it more than you do, doesn't it? Likewise, doesn't buying someone's property come down to finding someone who wants what you're willing to pay more than he wants the property in question. The REAL trick, though, is ensuring that neither party disrupts the transaction before it is consumated. Ebay doesn't do that, nor does Haggle.com. They both put on a show, but neither service provides much to protect either party nor do they protect the integrity of the transaction from which the money ostensibly is generated to support the service. These transactions are based on trusting someone whom you've never met, and whom nor not likely to meet, and therefore the transactions are VERY fragile. Ebay claims a 70% completion rate, and I expect that's inflated. I think a service which protects the buyer and the seller, by ensuring the funds and the merchandise as represented are there and by ensuring the parties complete the transaction to which they're supposedly committed, would be VERY valuable and would take a BIG bite out of Ebay's share. That's not an easy task, however. > >-Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Mar 18 13:11:58 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <199903181905.LAA02422@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I remember the Exidy had soft font character generation.... That made the best use of this by changing fonts on the fly... It looked pretty good when the rest of us were looking at blowing Eproms to get new characters formed. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay > > Why is that, exactly? I'm not trying to disparage the Exidy, but apart from > its rarity I can't tell it apart from most other EightiesBASICBoxes (tm). > Is it the rarity? The fact that the Exidy was a pioneer? Did I miss > something important about the machine? > > Admittedly, I am consciously pragmatic (avoiding things I wouldn't use or > wouldn't have time for). > > -- Derek > From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 18 13:12:56 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: S-100 bus specs Message-ID: <01BE7149.6C2296B0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Anyone know of a good reference on the web for the S-100 bus (pin assignments ect..)? TIA, Steve Robertson From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 18 13:17:03 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Vaxstation up for sale References: <01be9f4c$c1542280$159ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36F1512F.6428DC14@wfi-inc.com> Hi all, Anyone want/need a VS 3100 m38? I have too many unfinished computer projects and need to clear a few feet of desk space. It's got a mono monitor, external HD (I don't have the model # here at work, but I think it's ~400meg), mouse, and KB, VMS v4 on the internal HD. I'd like something for it, since I bought it in the heat of the moment on ePlague (you know I paid dearly), but am definitely interested in trades for things concerning my 11/15 or other interesting stuff. It may outweigh the value of the vax, but I'm looking for a cheap eprom programmer that can do 2732A's. Since I'm so lazy, local responses (Southern California) have priority... Anyone interested should email me at my regular address, A_Finney@wfi-inc.com. Cheers, Aaron From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Mar 18 13:25:08 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: S-100 bus specs In-Reply-To: <01BE7149.6C2296B0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990318132508.0098c480@texas.net> Is the S-100 bus used in any current computers? Can it be expanded to 16/32/64 bits? At 02:12 PM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know of a good reference on the web for the S-100 bus (pin assignments ect..)? > >TIA, > >Steve Robertson > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 18 14:06:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: S-100 bus specs Message-ID: <001001be717a$e92f69e0$58483cd1@fuj03> The standard allowed for 16-bit use, but no more AFIK. The IEEE696 standard provided for 24 bits of address and 16 bits of data. However, since the signals on the S-100 were designed for the old 8080 functonal model, and most of the signals which were required to run a computer's bus were simpler than the model around which the S-100 was designed, the adoption of the standard simply served to kill the S-100 bus. What's more, with its on-card voltage regulation, far too much heat was generated in these linear regulators for the technology which was current. This required fans and fans were noisy enough to be objectionable on the desktop, which was the new environment for computers. The '696 standard defined cards which wouldn't work with the old versions and which required far too much fiddling with the newer processors' bus control signals to allow for a simple and elegant design solution, so the bus simply went away, more or less of its own weight. A decent reference for the S-100, though not a web site, is the Osborne/McGraw-Hill book Interfacing to S-100/IEEE 696 Computers by Sol Libes and Mark Garetz. This should give you all you need if you can find a copy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 12:30 PM Subject: Re: S-100 bus specs >Is the S-100 bus used in any current computers? Can it be expanded to >16/32/64 bits? > >At 02:12 PM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Anyone know of a good reference on the web for the S-100 bus (pin >assignments ect..)? >> >>TIA, >> >>Steve Robertson >> >> >> >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 18 14:25:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: S-100 bus specs In-Reply-To: <001001be717a$e92f69e0$58483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The '696 standard defined cards which wouldn't work with the old versions > and which required far too much fiddling with the newer processors' bus > control signals to allow for a simple and elegant design solution, so the > bus simply went away, more or less of its own weight. But the S-100 bus was still in commercial production well into the 90s. The last issue of is dated 1990 and still had articles on S-100 bus based products. From what I'm told, there are still plenty of S-100 boxes being used as embedded controllers, and these systems range anywhere from the Altair and IMSAI to Godbout, Cromemco, etc. Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From elvey at hal.com Thu Mar 18 14:37:58 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903182037.MAA04206@civic.hal.com> Hi All I have been looking for the specs of a transistor that burned out on my Cromemco board. It seems to be obsolete. I tried the NTE suggested replacement but that didn't seem to have enough gain to work correctly. None of the books I have show it. It is a MPS6560. I'm looking for max current, Vcbo and hfe. Thanks Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 18 14:57:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: <199903182037.MAA04206@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi All > I have been looking for the specs of a transistor > that burned out on my Cromemco board. It seems to > be obsolete. I tried the NTE suggested replacement > but that didn't seem to have enough gain to work > correctly. None of the books I have show it. > It is a MPS6560. > > I'm looking for max current, Vcbo and hfe. > Thanks > Dwight Which cromemco board??? Likely if the transistor doesn't ahve enough gain there is another circuit fault as the 6560 is pretty loose spec device. Allison From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Mar 18 14:54:29 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help Message-ID: <073401be7181$9ae6a800$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> II have the Motorola book here and it is 4 pages with all the data and curves you could possibly want. I could do a quick scan and email it. What format is good for you. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:44 PM Subject: Transistor help >Hi All > I have been looking for the specs of a transistor >that burned out on my Cromemco board. It seems to >be obsolete. I tried the NTE suggested replacement >but that didn't seem to have enough gain to work >correctly. None of the books I have show it. > It is a MPS6560. > >I'm looking for max current, Vcbo and hfe. >Thanks >Dwight > From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Mar 18 15:05:44 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: <199903182037.MAA04206@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990318150544.0098c480@texas.net> Mouser Electronics (800-346-6873) carries them. p/n: 333-mps6560 TO-92 NPN General purpose $.31ea. At 12:37 PM 3/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hi All > I have been looking for the specs of a transistor >that burned out on my Cromemco board. It seems to >be obsolete. I tried the NTE suggested replacement >but that didn't seem to have enough gain to work >correctly. None of the books I have show it. > It is a MPS6560. > >I'm looking for max current, Vcbo and hfe. >Thanks >Dwight > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Thu Mar 18 15:08:35 1999 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: old versions of Irix Message-ID: <199903182108.PAA06271@fudge.uchicago.edu> I have a box of QIC tapes that claim to contain old versions of Irix, mostly circa version 4.0.x, with a few random Sun and IBM tapes from around the same era (late 1980s) thrown in. Does anyone want them? eric From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 18 15:08:14 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the previous thot in stone... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Thu Mar 18 15:12:42 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: old versions of Irix In-Reply-To: <199903182108.PAA06271@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: > I have a box of QIC tapes that claim to contain old versions of Irix, > mostly circa version 4.0.x, with a few random Sun and IBM tapes from > around the same era (late 1980s) thrown in. Does anyone want them? YES!!!! Irix can be a bear to get, as there seem to be lots of self-proclaimed "SGI-cops" out there that uphold the rather unfriendly license agreement. Hopefully one is for a 4D/380... William Donzelli william@ans.net From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Mar 18 15:15:32 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <199903181905.LAA02422@saul10.u.washington.edu> from Derek Peschel at "Mar 18, 1999 11:05:58 am" Message-ID: <199903182116.PAA10286@mail.cs.umn.edu> > > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay > > Why is that, exactly? I'm not trying to disparage the Exidy, but apart from > its rarity I can't tell it apart from most other EightiesBASICBoxes (tm). > Is it the rarity? The fact that the Exidy was a pioneer? Did I miss > something important about the machine? > > Admittedly, I am consciously pragmatic (avoiding things I wouldn't use or > wouldn't have time for). > > -- Derek > For the exact same reason I would want an Ohio Scientific C4P computer, or a SOL. Because I saw them in the computer magazines and electronics magazines in the 70's back when i was in junior and senior high school, yet I never had the opportunity to actually see one (thus I dont know how crappy they really are, especially the C4P ;) and I would have a bit of fun playing around with them. The Exidy sure sounded neat. The output was only black and white, but somehow teh features sure sounded great.. redefinable character sets, or something like that. -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Mar 18 15:21:09 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: old versions of Irix In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Mar 18, 1999 04:12:42 pm" Message-ID: <199903182121.PAA11335@mail.cs.umn.edu> What-cha talkin' about, willis? We're usually flooded with SGI cdroms every year here at work. If you dont need a code or license file of some sort, then I dont see what the problem would be. The only reason we keep em around, is in case we ever need some cdrom jewel cases. Of course, i'm talking relatively newer media, such as for the Indy or indigo2 or O2 systems. -Lawrence LeMay > > I have a box of QIC tapes that claim to contain old versions of Irix, > > mostly circa version 4.0.x, with a few random Sun and IBM tapes from > > around the same era (late 1980s) thrown in. Does anyone want them? > > YES!!!! > > Irix can be a bear to get, as there seem to be lots of > self-proclaimed "SGI-cops" out there that uphold the rather unfriendly > license agreement. > > Hopefully one is for a 4D/380... > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 18 15:34:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. > > as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... > > You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the > previous thot in stone... You're kidding! Wow, you're not. But this is a far different company than us old tech nerds know and love. Most of the business base seems to be European these days. But hey, this is significant. A micro/mini-computer company that's been around longer than Apple and is still alive and kicking. That's more than you can say for any other computer comapnies that sprang up around the same time, save for the obvious. I stand corrected (yet again :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From william at ans.net Thu Mar 18 15:40:48 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: old versions of Irix In-Reply-To: <199903182121.PAA11335@mail.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > We're usually flooded with SGI cdroms every year here at work. If you > dont need a code or license file of some sort, then I dont see what > the problem would be. Generally, when someone on USENET asks for a copy, some of these "cops" scream about the license, and everyone gets scared away. By the letter of the law, the "cops" are right, but they are still dicks. Why, I ask, are there no "cops" with such fierceness for other OSes? > Of course, i'm talking relatively newer media, such as for the > Indy or indigo2 or O2 systems. Tapes were distributed in such numbers. From gram at cnct.com Thu Mar 18 16:05:32 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. > > as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... > > You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the > previous thot in stone... Hmm. The history file contains no mention of their first product, the TV Dazzler. On the other hand, their newer system, the CCube, looks sweet. Of course, the real question is "When will Linux run on it?". Since at this point, Linux can't quite handle an array of 1024 processors. (Maybe by kernel 2.4). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 18 18:13:18 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Sun 4/110 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990318181318.3a671340@intellistar.net> I went to one of my favorite scrappers today and got lucky. One of their trucks had just come in with a load of HP stuff. They generously (?) let me unload it for them. I found a mountain of HP stuff! My poor little Subaru was dragging the ground coming home! One of the things that I saw was a SUN 4/110. Can anyone tell me the general specs for it. CPU type and speed, what size hard drive they have (if any), amount of memory, etc. Any idea of what it's worth? Also is anyone interested in it? I'm going back there tomorrow and can get it but I have to know before tomorrow or else it's going to be scrap metal. Joe From elvey at hal.com Thu Mar 18 16:13:24 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903182213.OAA04234@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > Hi All > > I have been looking for the specs of a transistor > > that burned out on my Cromemco board. It seems to > > be obsolete. I tried the NTE suggested replacement > > but that didn't seem to have enough gain to work > > correctly. None of the books I have show it. > > It is a MPS6560. > > > > I'm looking for max current, Vcbo and hfe. > > Thanks > > Dwight > > Which cromemco board??? Likely if the transistor doesn't ahve enough > gain there is another circuit fault as the 6560 is pretty loose spec > device. > > Allison > Hi Allison It is for a 8K Byte Saver. It is used for the flyback driver for the high voltage supply. All of the other transistors on the board are normal general purpose types. The replacement transistor that NTE had didn't seem to have enough gain. In order for a flyback switcher to work, the edges have to be sharp. I currently have a 2N4401 in there but it may have too much gain or not be able to handle the higher reverse voltage on the base lead caused by the feed back. The first one I tried only lasted a few minutes. The next one I tried, I used a larger base resistor and it seems to be holding but I'd like to know what the intended gain and voltage range is. The 2N4401 is not getting hot and I'm able to program parts OK now, I'd just like to fix it correctly. One of the others said Mouser Electronics (800-346-6873) carries them ( Thanks Arfon ). The transistor was blown trying to program a bad PROM. There doesn't seem to be any other damage. The transformer seem OK. Dwight From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Mar 18 16:11:50 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) References: Message-ID: <36F17A24.DFFA12D3@bigfoot.com> Wasn't there a cromeNco as well, into video products, or have I been mis-spelling it for years?. By the way if you go to www.commodore.com you get a hazardous waste cleanup service's web page. Weird.... Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > > > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. > > > > as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... > > > > You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the > > previous thot in stone... > > Hmm. The history file contains no mention of their first product, > the TV Dazzler. > > On the other hand, their newer system, the CCube, looks sweet. Of > course, the real question is "When will Linux run on it?". Since > at this point, Linux can't quite handle an array of 1024 > processors. (Maybe by kernel 2.4). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 18 16:36:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > > > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > > > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. > > > > as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... > > > > You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the > > previous thot in stone... > > You're kidding! > > Wow, you're not. But this is a far different company than us old tech > nerds know and love. Most of the business base seems to be European > these days. But hey, this is significant. A micro/mini-computer company > that's been around longer than Apple and is still alive and kicking. > That's more than you can say for any other computer comapnies that sprang > up around the same time, save for the obvious. Their history seems a bit revisionist, and in some cases downright fradulent. This is from the History section of their web site: 1975 First supplier of complete micro computer systems (based on Z-80) Call me stupid but the Z80 wasn't even invented yet: July 1976 The Apple I computer board is sold in kit form, and delivered to stores by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Price: US$666.66. [46] [218] [593.350] Paul Terrell orders 50 Apple computers from Steve Jobs, for his Byte Shop. [266.213] *****Zilog releases the 2.5-MHz Z80, an 8-bit microprocessor whose instruction set is a superset of the Intel 8080. [32] [202.168] (early 1975 [9]) (1975 [556.11]) (1975 December [346.257]) Micom Data Systems ships its first product, the Micom 2000 word processing computer. [615.99] Source: Chronology of Events in the History of Microcomputers http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist/comp1971.htm And then there's: 1976 Development of the industrial standard S-100 Bus IEEE 696 First of all, I hope they don't intend to mean they invented the S-100 bus. That goes to Ed Roberts. And as far as I know, the IEEE696 standard wasn't ratified until 1982. December 1982 Pepsi-Cola president John Sculley first visits Apple Computer. [745.62] Tabor demonstrates a 3.25-inch floppy disk drive, the Model TC500 Drivette. Unformatted capacity is up to 500KB on a single side. [444.72] Amdek releases the Amdisk-3 Micro-Floppy-disk Cartridge system. It houses two 3-inch floppy drives designed by Hitachi/Matsushita/Maxell. Price is US$800, without a controller card. [444.70] Satellite Software International ships WordPerfect 2.0 for DOS, for US$500. [330.108] (v2.2 in October [502.49]) *****The IEEE Standards Board passes the IEEE 696/S-100 bus standard. [443.278] Digital Research announces CP/M+. [443.431] Atari issues a US$55 rebate on the Atari 400, dropping its retail price to under US$200. [713.268] Texas Instruments extends its US$100 rebate on the TI 99/4A to April 1983. [713.268] Apple Computer becomes the first personal computer company to reach US$1 billion in annual sales. [46] Source: Chronology of Events in the History of Microcomputers http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist/comp1981.htm Then there's this: 1979 First multi-user operating system CROMIX (UNIX derivative) First multi-user operating system...what? On a micro? Maybe. Sheesh. These guys are as bad if not worse than Tandy and their self-aggrandizing history. (Is it obvious I have too much time on my hands these days? Oh well, someone's got to keep the record straight.) cc: webmaster@cromemco.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 18 15:37:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <199903181905.LAA02422@saul10.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 18, 99 11:05:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/3a83d212/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 18 15:41:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: <199903182037.MAA04206@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 18, 99 12:37:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/31f5a079/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Mar 18 16:54:34 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: S-100 bus specs In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail's message of Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:25:29 -0800 (PST) References: Message-ID: <199903182254.OAA15459@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Godbout, Cromemco, etc. Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. Uh, Cromemco had an office with prominent sign at the corner of Bernardo and Central Expressway in Mountain View, CA 'til about 1992. I've wondered why I didn't see much of their detritus turn up on the surplus circuit, maybe it all went overseas to the new HQ. -Frank McConnell From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Mar 18 17:06:41 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Sun 4/110 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990318181318.3a671340@intellistar.net> from Joe at "Mar 18, 99 06:13:18 pm" Message-ID: <199903182306.SAA23248@crobin.home.org> > One of the things that I saw was a SUN 4/110. Can anyone tell me the > general specs for it. CPU type and speed, what size hard drive they have > (if any), amount of memory, etc. Any idea of what it's worth? Also is > anyone interested in it? I'm going back there tomorrow and can get it but > I have to know before tomorrow or else it's going to be scrap metal. It's an early Sparc-based system, probably around 20mhz, VME-bus. IIRC, the 110 chasis has 3 VMS slots, but no on-board disk storage. The system proably has a SCSI interface, though, (definately an Ethernet) and could be hooked up to an external shoebox. <<>> From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 18 16:58:20 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) Message-ID: <002401be7192$e63d6620$7e483cd1@fuj03> I alttended the Syscon/Buscon convention at LAX in 1986 and found that IEEE 696 board manufacturers were fairly well represented. Nevertheless, most of them conceded that (1) their new boards wouldn't work with their old ones, thereby quashing any hope one might have held of "upgrading" to reduce cost, and (2) their new boards generally varied in one respect or another from the standard, hence defeating features which had to be sacrificed in order to make others work, but ultimately defeating interoperability between vendors. I didn't attend the '696 standards committee meetings, but did attend SCSI and Optical Disk standards committee meetings, so I have a pretty good idea of the games which are typically played at these affairs. What happened with S-100 was that unlike the SCSI standards committee, which was ultimately beaten into submission by one major vendor of controllers and interface IC's, was that a standard was patterned around hardware already in the field. They could do this because of their position which was quite unyielding due to their already installed base. This same sort of thing caused '696 meeting attendees to conclude that, while there was a standard, there was no need to adhere to it because the goal of inter-vender interoperability was not likely to be attained, and the market window for 8 and 16 bit computers was closing due to the advent of the IBM PC and PC/AT. The Macintosh was not yet a force they felt had to be reckoned with, though it certainly developed into one. Their market was seriously eroded by the single-board boxes offered by many manufacturers late in the market cycle, because, like it or not, large-volume hardware is sold by the pound, and S-100 stuff always weighed a lot. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems >> > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. >> >> as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... >> >> You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the >> previous thot in stone... > >You're kidding! > >Wow, you're not. But this is a far different company than us old tech >nerds know and love. Most of the business base seems to be European >these days. But hey, this is significant. A micro/mini-computer company >that's been around longer than Apple and is still alive and kicking. >That's more than you can say for any other computer comapnies that sprang >up around the same time, save for the obvious. > >I stand corrected (yet again :) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Mar 18 17:23:27 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: old versions of Irix In-Reply-To: <199903182121.PAA11335@mail.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > What-cha talkin' about, willis? > > We're usually flooded with SGI cdroms every year here at work. If you > dont need a code or license file of some sort, then I dont see what > the problem would be. > > The only reason we keep em around, is in case we ever need some > cdrom jewel cases. > > Of course, i'm talking relatively newer media, such as for the > Indy or indigo2 or O2 systems. Maybe it's just me, but... I recently got an Indigo2 Extreme (fairly newish -- sorry, not really classic), and I've been looking high and low for IRIX 6.5. SGI is no help -- their sales department, bless their hearts, want me to shell out $600 just for the media. Other than that, it seems to be INCREDIBLY hard to come by. I even have a few friends who work at SGI, and they tell me the best they can do is sneak me some media for 6.2 (without the free development libraries and headers... they can't find those, they're a seperate disc!) Waaaaugh, I bought the hardware, why won't they give me the software? :) So, I'd have to say that IRIX is a pretty rare and hard to come by beast. Heck, I've even seen a few (very few) people selling ancient copies of IRIX 5.3 for over $100. Kinda silly if you ask me. Hopefully SGI will change this in the near future, because I'm a real fan of their stuff, and I'm so weird that I actually really LIKE IRIX as an OS. > -Lawrence LeMay -Seth -- "You know, if there's one thing more destructive Seth J. Morabito than a hydrogen bomb, it's a hydrogen bomb strapped sethm@loomcom.com to the back of a MANLY MAN!!!" [James "Kibo" Parry] From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Mar 18 17:27:36 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: WTB: Kinetics EtherSC Message-ID: <199903182327.SAA04111@hiway1.exit109.com> Having gotten an older Powerbook, I have been looking at Ethernet options and have decided that I'd like to find a used Kinetics EtherSC (SCSI Ethernet adapter). Why such and old one, especially when I can pick up an Asante on eBay? Various reasons... mainly the fact that it appears to be one of the few which would be supported by the NetBSD 'se' driver. So, if you have one that you'd like to get rid of, let me know what it's worth to you. I'm open to cash or trades (depending on what you're looking for); I can even trade a DaynaPORT SCSI/Link-T (another SCSI Ethernet box, but somewhat newer). Thanks in advance... <<>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 18 16:39:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: <199903182213.OAA04234@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 18, 99 02:13:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/b0219238/attachment.ksh From gene at ehrich.com Thu Mar 18 17:54:29 1999 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! In-Reply-To: <199903181513.HAA18088@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990318185322.009b66d0@popmail.voicenet.com> I have a number of 5-1/4 disks for sale on my web site a lot cheaper than that. Some are new others used and some demos. But a lot cheaper. www.voicenet.com/~generic At 07:13 AM 3/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >See > >http://store.imation.com/ > >and Diskette Products. DD 5.25" disks! Rapturous! They even have them >for RX-50! *And* 8" disks! But be prepared to pay through the nose, of >course ... > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. -- William Blake -- gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale Gene Ehrich PO Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 18 18:22:00 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <36F11E37.5E03F2FC@epix.net> Message-ID: Ours stands about waist high and has to weigh over 100#. since it has wheels, it is, of course, portabel...;) The monitor on ours appears to be secured to the top. Ours was the main server on a token ring. On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > Merle, > I would not call my HP Apollo 400 a portable by any means. It stands > about 2' tall and weighs in @ about 70 pounds, which is the top end of > what my doctors say I can lift and I find that trying to do this is very > pain full, thank goodness for friends and hand trucks. Mine has no > wheels. Mine also has a cable with three BNC connectors on each end to > hook up the monitor. I have been told of a possible source for a monitor > and I say thanks Sellam and I will check into it. > > JOhn Amirault > > "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > > > Perhaps I'm thinking of the 300 series? Is the 400 the very large > > portable with its own wheels? > > > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > > I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? > > > > JOhn Amirault > > > > > > > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and > > > > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says > > > > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are > > > > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 18 18:23:19 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Seen on port-vax... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990318074528.0095d6f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: We picked this up this very afternoon. Remarkably, the number of this beast is 666. Who knows what deviltry may occur when it's booted... On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > This came in on the NetBSD port-VAX mailing list. Anyone in the MA area > want a VAX 8650? > > -=-=- -=-=- > > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:02:45 -0500 > From: Matthew Hudson > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i586) > To: port-vax@netbsd.org > Subject: free 8650 Vax in MA > Sender: port-vax-owner@netbsd.org > Delivered-To: port-vax@netbsd.org > > Subject: > GIVEAWAY: Vax 8650 in Medford, MA > Date: > Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:23:50 -0500 > From: > Jason Scott > Organization: > The Information Access Center > Newsgroups: > misc.forsale.computers.workstation > > > > > My company is decommissioning a VAX 8650 with Expansion Unit and while > the current plan is to throw the thing into the dump, if there are > souls out there who want one of these things for Nostalgia, Spare Parts, > > or to drop out of a plane, give me a holler at (781)-393-3283 and we'll > talk. Or, mail to jason@snuh.com works just as well. > > If you think you can stop by with a Toyota and put this thing in the > trunk, you don't want it. Vax 8650's are the size of large meat lockers > and you'll need at least a truck to pick it up. The power needs are > beyond imagining. The only real use for these things are spare parts > or some sick project I can't think of, but I can't bear to not take > at least a try at finding them a home. > > The VAXen are located in Medford, MA, just about 5 miles north of > Boston, off Route 93. We're throwing the things out Thursday Night > (March 18) so act fast. First call and show, first serve. Thanks! > > - Jason Scott > > Thought someone might be interested in this. > -Matt > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own > human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 18 18:29:32 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Medieval methods... (was Re: Got a question....PDP? VAX?) In-Reply-To: <80256738.0059E0F7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > M K Peirce wrote: > > > Any thoughts on how they handled guineas and florins? > > > The guinea was still used as a unit for some transactions (=21 s.) but it had > ceased to exist as a coin 100 years and more earlier. My guess is that for the > sort of transactions that Lyons were interested in, the guinea was not used. > > The florin was introduced in the mid 19th century as Britain's first decimal > coin - one tenth of a pound. But by the mid 20th century, florin coins all > actually bore the legend "two shillings" (you Americans wouldn't be at all > confused if your dimes said "ten cents", would you?), and "florin" was no more > than the name of the coin. > > Philip. I still find it hard to believe in the intrinsic value of a currency divisable by 10...;) "Lord, I am a Golden Angell in thy Hand." -Edward Taylor From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 18 18:33:44 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: OT: UNIX/Linux info? Message-ID: Hi, I don't currently have any good books on UNIX or Linux, and am trying to configure a Linux system mostly from scratch, with a lot of my own 'improvements'. However, there is one thing I'm stuck on (the inittab shutdown and reboot scripts), and I'm wondering if anyone here knows what would be the list or newsgroup most able to answer my question. Of course, if someone on this list wants to take a shot at it, by all means e-mail me privately. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 18 18:37:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:08 2005 Subject: Transistor help Message-ID: <199903190037.AA22869@world.std.com> Message-ID: <000301be71a2$33612e00$fb711fd1@5x86jk> Did you get my first reply message to you stating that I still wanted one of these ? John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Uncle Roger > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 1:06 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: GRiDPads > > > I've finally got the GRiDPad's I mentioned a while ago -- e-mail me if > you're interested. (Basically, working GRiDPad 1910 with case, pen, PS, > untested battery for $15 + shipping.) > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 18 17:58:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 18, 99 02:36:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/3819cc98/attachment.ksh From joebar at microsoft.com Thu Mar 18 19:05:55 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info? References: Message-ID: <035101be71a4$a42a8da0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> > I don't currently have any good books on UNIX or Linux, and am trying to > configure a Linux system mostly from scratch, with a lot of my own I don't understand. Why aren't you using a consumer operating system... like Windows 98? - Joe (Oh, I really want to send this out with a straight face, but I don't want to be responsible for massive OT flamage, so here's the smiley: :-) It's a joke, son, a joke :-) From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 18 19:05:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 Message-ID: <000e01be71a4$9af86d60$48483cd1@fuj03> If you're thinking about the monitor as being useable with a PC, it depends on which type it is. The lower-resolution type (I once had one) will work at 1024x768 if you connect a resistor of about 500 ohms between the composite blanking signal on the "application connector" to the GREEN output from the card. This will impose the composite blanking beneath the GREEN video, and bias the GREEN up by about enough to make the composite blanking look like a composite sync, since it's of the right frequency. The GREEN input is usually AC coupled at the monitor, and terminated to ground through 75 ohms. This is worth a try, but may not work on all card-monitor combinations. It will of course not work at all until you load the 1kx768 driver, which will only happen when the hi-res GUI is loaded. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 5:27 PM Subject: Re: Apollo 400 > >Ours stands about waist high and has to weigh over 100#. since it has >wheels, it is, of course, portabel...;) The monitor on ours appears to >be secured to the top. Ours was the main server on a token ring. > >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > >> Merle, >> I would not call my HP Apollo 400 a portable by any means. It stands >> about 2' tall and weighs in @ about 70 pounds, which is the top end of >> what my doctors say I can lift and I find that trying to do this is very >> pain full, thank goodness for friends and hand trucks. Mine has no >> wheels. Mine also has a cable with three BNC connectors on each end to >> hook up the monitor. I have been told of a possible source for a monitor >> and I say thanks Sellam and I will check into it. >> >> JOhn Amirault >> >> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: >> > >> > Perhaps I'm thinking of the 300 series? Is the 400 the very large >> > portable with its own wheels? >> > >> > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >> > >> > > I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: >> > > >> > > > Mike, >> > > > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? >> > > > JOhn Amirault >> > > > >> > > > Mike Ford wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite scrappers, and >> > > > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers (says >> > > > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise they are >> > > > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) >> > > > >> > > >> > > M. K. Peirce >> > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >> > > 215 Shady Lea Road, >> > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> > > >> > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> > > >> > > - Ovid >> > > >> > > >> > >> > M. K. Peirce >> > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >> > 215 Shady Lea Road, >> > North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> > >> > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> > >> > - Ovid >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Mar 18 18:59:51 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: More finds Message-ID: <000501be71a3$cb2bb600$fb711fd1@5x86jk> Picked up a IBM MagCard/A unit at a local thrift for 1.95 plus tax. It's a type 6620 and is in two parts the typewriter and mag unit itself hooked together by a long very thick cable. Have not tried to power it up yet. Today I got C16 in the box for free at an auction from a guy who won it a box of tv's he purchased. Other items I got do not meet the 10 year rule, when they do I will post them here. From ss at allegro.com Thu Mar 18 19:30:43 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903190130.RAA21524@bart.allegro.com> Re: > > 1979 > > First multi-user operating system CROMIX (UNIX derivative) > > > > First multi-user operating system...what? On a micro? Maybe. > > Even then, dubious. When did OS-9 come out? IIRC, I was using a multiuser Alpha Micro (probably an AM 100) in my apartment around June or July of 1978. It was based on the Western Digital microengine, which emulated a DEC 11. Stan From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 18 19:31:08 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: old versions of Irix In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Re: old versions of Irix" (Mar 18, 16:12) References: Message-ID: <9903190131.ZM21130@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 18, 16:12, William Donzelli wrote: > Subject: Re: old versions of Irix > > I have a box of QIC tapes that claim to contain old versions of Irix, > > mostly circa version 4.0.x, with a few random Sun and IBM tapes from > > around the same era (late 1980s) thrown in. Does anyone want them? > > YES!!!! > > Irix can be a bear to get, as there seem to be lots of > self-proclaimed "SGI-cops" out there that uphold the rather unfriendly > license agreement. In response to those who try to prevent an SGI owner obtaining media for an OS his machine probably originally had, I'd point out that: all SGI machines that ran IRIX were shipped with the OS; the OS is/was licenced for the CPU, not the original owner; the license doesn't preclude the system owner making a copy for use on the same CPU. There was a discussion about this a few months ago on comp.sys.sgi.admin, in which the concensus from the SGI staff was that there was nothing wrong in obtaining a copy of the OS for a system, providing one wasn't upgrading to a version later than the one the system had been licensed for. You should be able to find the discussion on DejaNews. OK, so that won't help in getting a copy of 6.5. Judging from our experiences, you don't want it just yet, anyway ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 18 19:41:21 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: sellers market" (Mar 18, 21:37) References: Message-ID: <9903190141.ZM21134@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 18, 21:37, Tony Duell wrote: > It has a redefinable character set (the bitmaps are in RAM). Only for the characters 128...255. The lower set is always in ROM. > It has a > real serial port, which is also used for the cassette system Mk.1 versions have a hardware bug which gives the RS232 transmit line incorrect polarity. All standard versions have a bug in the monitor routines, which cause the baud rate and serial/cassette switch to be rset every time the keyboard is scanned. (I have a fix for that). > (most of the > cassette I/O is done in hardware which couples to the UART chip). That was one of the nice things -- quite a good cassette system, with motor control. > It has > a parallel port (centronics printer or user I/O IIRC). The keyboard isn't > too bad. Except it's polled by a very inefficient routine, which makes it a bit slow. But it's good quality otherwise; it uses the same keyswitches as some DEC terminals, and has a full ASCII keyboard, with a numeric pad, and a few extra keys, so it's easy to generate all 256 character codes. It also had pretty comprehensive Technical and Software manuals. I still use mine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 18 19:36:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info? In-Reply-To: <035101be71a4$a42a8da0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> References: Message-ID: >I don't understand. >Why aren't you using a consumer operating system... like Windows 98? > >It's a joke, son, a joke :-) Joe, I've seen the light. I'm now running Win95 and WinNT 4.0 Server (Yes, legal copies, I bought them in a fit of madness about a year ago when I wanted to learn some about them) on my PII/333. However, since I don't want my system to crash I'm running them under Linux. I had Linux, Win95, and WinNT Server all running at the same time on the same system last night! It's so cool I've been playing with it since Monday and haven't had any time to work on configuring my VMS Cluster. Of course 95% of the time has been spent cursing Windows! BTW, how's everything up there in Redmond going with the port of MS Office to Linux that supposedly isn't happening? Zane Sorry all, couldn't resist, and it is really cool running Linux/Win95/WinNT at the same time on the same machine. For more info see, http://www.vmware.com I need to test a couple more things, but I think I'll be buying a copy, despite the price tag. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Mar 18 19:57:19 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: AUCTION - GNT 4601 Reader/Punch Combo (Paper Tape) In-Reply-To: <25bb86cd.36edd23f@aol.com> Message-ID: UP FOR SEALED BID AUCTION GNT 401 Reader/Punch Combo - Paper Tape Reader/Punch unit - Partial Roll of Black Paper Tape mounted on unit, OK condition - Manual Further Information - Manual from June 1982 so unit is probably same vintage - From the manual: The GNT 4601 is the ideal paper tape reader/punch combination. It handles serial data at speeds up to 1200 Baud, and all data and control signals conform to RS232C/V24. There is also a current loop facility. ... The GNT 4601 has two signal connectors and can be inserted between a modem or computer and a terminal. Condition: I've never actually tried or used this unit so I can't guarantee it's condition but it appears to be in good condition, has no broken pieces and appears to be relatively simple. It was obviously intended for data conversion and a note in the front of the manual indicates that someone was using it with a Radio Shack Model 100 (laptop). Auction Terms: This will be a sealed bid auction. Send your offers to me at wirehead@retrocomputing.com. They will be recorded and the highest bidder by Midnight March 21, 1999 will be sold the item. Everyone, who bid, will receive an email at that time telling them the high bid but not to whom it was sold. Shipping will be in addition to your bid and will be $10.00 in the continental United States. The minimum bid on this item is $10.00. Payment Terms: The successful bidder will send a check or money order for the winning bid amount plus $10.00 shipping to my address, which the winner will be provided. If payment is in the form of a money order, the item will be shipped immediately. If payment is in the form of a check, shipping will be delayed 5 business days while the check clears. Thanks and happy bidding! Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: My last auction was posted on Saturday, 5 days ago, and of the 4 auctions I've done, two people have already received their items and have expressed no disappointment. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 18 20:04:31 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: self-aggrandizing history, and the opposite (was Re: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs)) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990319020431.22879.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Sheesh. These guys are as bad if not worse than Tandy and their >> self-aggrandizing history. > > Most companies are the same... > > But HP did the opposite ;-). Two years ago (1997) they handed out > stickers with 'HP calculators - 25 years of inovation' on them. At the > HPCC conference that year, I had one of those stickers sitting on top of > my HP9100B - a (then) 28-year-old HP calculator. And IBM used to list the 5100 in their timeline as having been introduced in 1979. At least they fixed it after I pointed it out. Some companies have been totally unresponsive to comments on their web sites. Of course, it probably helped that my correction made them look *more* innovative, rather than less. From thompson at athenet.net Thu Mar 18 20:22:25 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They should consider a VMS port. I would waste no time adding the three OS's to my VAXcluster. I wonder if I would have my quorum disk as ext2, fat32, ODS, or NTFS. Couldn't resist. Paul On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > wanted to learn some about them) on my PII/333. However, since I don't > want my system to crash I'm running them under Linux. I had Linux, Win95, > and WinNT Server all running at the same time on the same system last > night! > > It's so cool I've been playing with it since Monday and haven't had any > time to work on configuring my VMS Cluster. Of course 95% of the time has > been spent cursing Windows! > Sorry all, couldn't resist, and it is really cool running Linux/Win95/WinNT > at the same time on the same machine. For more info see, > http://www.vmware.com I need to test a couple more things, but I think I'll > be buying a copy, despite the price tag. > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 18 20:29:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) Message-ID: <199903190229.AA08689@world.std.com> > 1979 <> > First multi-user operating system CROMIX (UNIX derivative) <> > <> > First multi-user operating system...what? On a micro? Maybe. <> <> Even then, dubious. When did OS-9 come out? < I picked up a Sun 3/80 with some HP stuff today. Can anyone tell me about the 3/80? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 18 23:02:15 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Weird PS/2! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990318230215.2f87e4ac@intellistar.net> Another strange find today, a PS-2 with a pull out hard drive. It's a Model 50 and has a steel box about 2.5" x 4" located bewteen the floppy drive and OFF/ON switch. There's a keylock below it and a chrome handle on the box. The box is about 7.5 deep and has a 50 pin SCSI type connector on the rear that mates with socket in the machine. On top of th ebox it's marked "Standard 5.0 software loaded 29 Jan 93". There is also a sticker on the front of the computer that says "IVT PS 50RD". Has anyone ever seen one of these before? Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 18 20:45:29 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Site names Was: Re: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: <36F17A24.DFFA12D3@bigfoot.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990318213657.00a0e9c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 04:11 PM 3/18/99 -0600, Russ Blakeman said something like: >Wasn't there a cromeNco as well, into video products, or have I been >mis-spelling it for years?. By the way if you go to www.commodore.com you get >a hazardous waste cleanup service's web page. Weird.... Yeah, try www.decdirect.com. It's not quite what some of us DEC nuts looking for DEC's parts and supply site expect either. It's Direct Sales Inc. Although, the company is a computer reseller, it's not the DECdirect I needed. How did DSI end up with decdirect.com I wonder? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 18 21:02:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) Message-ID: <199903190302.AA03850@world.std.com> >By 1979 the LSI11 was available. And it's certainly possibly to justify >that machine as a micro. Now, the LSI11 didn't (AFAIK) run RSX, but I >think it could have run one of the standalone multi-user BASICs (which >included its own OS). The LSI-11/03 was available at least as early as 1975 (that's the date on the earliest 'lsi11 pdp-11/03 processor handbook' that I have). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Mar 18 21:10:15 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c Message-ID: <000901be71b6$03ddb2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> For those of you who missed it the last time http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79618079 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !!.url Type: application/octet-stream Size: 115 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990318/d27f1a24/57PST-STANVEITSHISTORYOFTHEPConly3.obj From max82 at surfree.com Thu Mar 18 21:18:30 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Items available Message-ID: A Heathkit -10 oscilloscope, it's one of the old-style ones. It works, I guess, but I'm not familiar enough w/electronics to make sure of how well. It's big and heavy, so the shipping will cost a lot, but otherwise free. Also, an IBM PC keyboard. Cost of shipping. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Mar 19 00:38:43 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> I want a few people's opinions before I take any actions: My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - someone from my school). What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze '95 that can be downloaded? Where or who would I report this person to? FCC? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 18 21:41:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the > person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze > '95 that can be downloaded? Yes, there is a security program for Windoze. It's called Linux. > Where or who would I report this person to? FCC? Well, if you want to be a wuss about it, the FBI will take on these cases. I don't know if there's a threshold of seriousness upon which they'll act. The local polie will also take a report, and might actually do something if a) they are bored and want to pretend they know about computers or b) have a high tech crime unit (most large cities, many medium-sized cities and some small cities do). The better thing to do would be to either a) beat senseless the punk who broke into your system (my first choice), b) hack into his computer and retaliate, c) both. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Mar 18 21:42:50 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Sun 3/80? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990318225341.2f87bd62@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > I picked up a Sun 3/80 with some HP stuff today. Can anyone tell me about > the 3/80? It's a Motorola 68030 based Sun (68030 @ 20MHz, 68882 @ 20 or 40MHz, 68030 on-chip MMU, 3 MIPS, 0.16 MFLOPS). The last version of SunOS it can run is 4.1.1_U1. For more information, http://www.pz.pirmasens.de/sun3/ is the place to go. They have TONS of Sun3 info, including a downloadable copy of SunOS 4.1.1. Now, it's difficult to do, but I actually have installed this by fiddling with the NetBSD Sun3x netboot, netbooting into the SunOS 4.1.1 miniroot, and installing over the network. It works! And you become an UberGeek just for having done so. > Joe -Seth From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 18 21:53:36 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Mar 18, 1999 10:38:43 PM Message-ID: <199903190353.UAA27741@calico.litterbox.com> > > I want a few people's opinions before I take any actions: > > My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some > of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - > someone from my school). > > What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the > person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze > '95 that can be downloaded? > > Where or who would I report this person to? FCC? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > I would say if you have proof who did it, report them to the school. They're in the position to be the most vicious. Of course, if you can lay hands on the bugger who did it... -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 18 22:01:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Weird PS/2! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990318230215.2f87e4ac@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >Another strange find today, a PS-2 with a pull out hard drive. It's a Model >50 and has a steel box about 2.5" x 4" located bewteen the floppy drive and >OFF/ON switch. There's a keylock below it and a chrome handle on the box. >The box is about 7.5 deep and has a 50 pin SCSI type connector on the rear >that mates with socket in the machine. On top of th ebox it's marked >"Standard 5.0 software loaded 29 Jan 93". There is also a sticker on the >front of the computer that says "IVT PS 50RD". Has anyone ever seen one of >these before? > > Joe Based on the Era of the computer I'd guess it was a system that was part of some Military system. The first systems I ever saw removable HD's on were systems modified for the Military. That way the drive could be pulled out and locked up. Of course now it's finally getting easy to find the sleds, one of my PC's has 4 different sleds, each with a different OS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 18 22:10:02 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! In-Reply-To: <199903181513.HAA18088@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >and Diskette Products. DD 5.25" disks! Rapturous! They even have them >for RX-50! *And* 8" disks! But be prepared to pay through the nose, of >course ... I've heard that RX-50's are a lot cheaper from DEQ (was it DEC Direct?), although with the new management who knows how long before they dump their stock. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Mar 19 01:07:06 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel Message-ID: <01be71d7$18d0d880$c28ea6d1@the-general> Earlier today, I was reading an article in a magazine that I get (Science News) that said Supercomputers were made faster by connecting them in parallel (and I think someone here was talking about doing it with a bunch of C64's). That got me thinking. - I have a bunch of old computers, some network cards, and a big table in my basement. Here's the computers that I was thinking of using: HP Vectra RS/25C (386/25), GW2K (486-66), generic P-133, generic Cyrix P200+, and either a PS/2 P70 (386-20) or a Toshiba 200CDS (P100) as the "workstation". My question is: How do I do this? Do I connect them using parallel ports, or by using network cards and a hub? If I would the parallel ports, I could also add an IBM 5170, and two Tandy 1000's into the mix, but I'd need a few parallel cards. Is there any software that I would use, or would I have to write my own program (BASIC?)? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 19 00:18:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c In-Reply-To: <000901be71b6$03ddb2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990319001857.56579926@intellistar.net> At 09:10 PM 3/18/99 -0600, Francois wrote: >For those of you who missed it the last time > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79618079 If you don't have this one, GET IT! Great reading! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 19 00:21:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990319002132.55274910@intellistar.net> At 10:38 PM 3/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >I want a few people's opinions before I take any actions: > >My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some >of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - >someone from my school). > >What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the >person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze >'95 that can be downloaded? > >Where or who would I report this person to? If they're from your school then I'd start with the school administration. If they hacked in via the 'net, I'd report it to their ISP as well. You may also consider small claims court if you can reasonably prove that they were responsible. Joe From museum at techniche.com Thu Mar 18 22:37:13 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Items available Message-ID: <199903190437.XAA18230@chmls06.mediaone.net> Where?? >A Heathkit -10 oscilloscope, it's one of the old-style ones. It works, I >guess, but I'm not familiar enough w/electronics to make sure of how well. >It's big and heavy, so the shipping will cost a lot, but otherwise free. > >Also, an IBM PC keyboard. Cost of shipping. > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Mar 18 22:38:38 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <98a146a0.36f1d4ce@aol.com> In a message dated 3/18/99 10:39:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: > My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some > of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - > someone from my school). > > What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the > person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze > '95 that can be downloaded? uh, how about a power-on passwoid? I know some IBM machines have an unattended startup mode that locks the keyboard and mouse within the os until the passwoid is typed in. What about hardware locks? seems to be a simple and obvious answer to your problem. supr 'revenge is a delicious dish best served cold' dave From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 18 23:41:57 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question In-Reply-To: <199903190302.AA03850@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990318213651.00a36bd0@mcmanis.com> I would like to put together a simple PDP-11 system. I've got a M7270 card (LSI 11 processor) and an M8044-DB card (32KW MOS memory). I've also got a couple of PDP-11/03 and PDP-11/23 rack chassis that are both QBUS. I've also got a pair of RX02 drives. Does the M7270 go into an 11/03 chassis? What other cards would I need to build a usable '11 ? No doubt a floppy controller card of some sort (although I also recently got the DSD440 to go with the funky RX02 emulator card) Some sort of serial port for a terminal (M number?) What is the minimum RT-11 system? I also picked up the programmers panel for a PDP-11/10. I'd love to put together a PDP-11/10 if I new what to look for. --Chuck At 10:02 PM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>By 1979 the LSI11 was available. And it's certainly possibly to justify >>that machine as a micro. Now, the LSI11 didn't (AFAIK) run RSX, but I >>think it could have run one of the standalone multi-user BASICs (which >>included its own OS). > >The LSI-11/03 was available at least as early as 1975 (that's the >date on the earliest 'lsi11 pdp-11/03 processor handbook' that I >have). > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From black at gco.apana.org.au Fri Mar 19 15:44:21 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: HP-85's available References: <4.1.19990318010227.00b95b90@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <36F2C533.6CAE2EF6@gco.apana.org.au> Chuck McManis wrote: > Hi All, > > I > Typed the standard > 10 FOR I = 1 TO 10 > 20 DISP I > 30 NEXT I > 40 END > Diagnostic and it works fine. > Printer appears to work but I don't know > how to test it. > Change line 20 to "20 PRINT I" That'll do the trick. cheers, lance From black at gco.apana.org.au Fri Mar 19 15:48:26 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market References: <199903181905.LAA02422@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36F2C629.7BC4ED03@gco.apana.org.au> Derek Peschel wrote: > > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay > > Why is that, exactly? I'm not trying to disparage the Exidy, but apart from > its rarity I can't tell it apart from most other EightiesBASICBoxes (tm). > Is it the rarity? The fact that the Exidy was a pioneer? Did I miss > something important about the machine? > Isn't it a 70's machine, I seem to remember the power-up message was "Copyright 1979 Exidy Inc." It was the first computer I ever laid hands on, so in my case it's nostalgic - there's a thought, I could contact my old high scholl & see if they've still got them..... cheers, Lance From black at gco.apana.org.au Fri Mar 19 15:53:13 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) References: <36F17A24.DFFA12D3@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <36F2C748.1A5EB35C@gco.apana.org.au> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Wasn't there a cromeNco as well, into video products, or have I been > mis-spelling it for years?. By the way if you go to www.commodore.com you get > a hazardous waste cleanup service's web page. Weird.... > Try www.commodore.net for the correct homepage for Commodore (errr.... sorry, TULIP). Still the logo is familiar.... even if they only make Pentium machines these days - I got a giggle out of the name of the PC's they're making - The Evolution..... Maybe I could buy one, chuck out the PC guts & build one of the 128's into the empty case :-) cheers, Lance From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Mar 18 23:58:49 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! References: <199903181513.HAA18088@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36F1E799.AB8A576C@idirect.com> >Cameron Kaiser wrote: > See > > http://store.imation.com/ > > and Diskette Products. DD 5.25" disks! Rapturous! They even have them > for RX-50! *And* 8" disks! But be prepared to pay through the nose, of > course ... Jerome Fine replies: I guess I am in luck. I have a small supply of what I still use. If there is an emergency, I have a few 8" diskettes. Realize for RX50 diskettes, you only need DSDD 360 KByte floppies and a PC with an HD 5 1/4" floppy drive and a program called PUTR. You MUST not use the HD 5 1/4" floppy in an RX50 drive since it is not the same as the DSDD 360 KByte media - the HDs have double the magnetic strength. If you can't get any DSDD floppies, the source I just received some from should be happy if we shared the profit and we each got 1 cent each ($ US 0.50 per bulk pack of 25) which would cost more to ship and not worth while. Now if you can't FORMAT your DSDD 360 KByte floppies, I would be unhappy to need to spend the time, but I will consider producing a 25 pack for a dollar each. I am not set up to ship them, so please don't ask unless this is an emergency. Compaq may still sell the RX50s at about a dollar each. I remember when DEC used to gouge at these same prices (as imation) and how annoyed I was. Hopefully Compaq still has some RX50 media left. Even more hopefully, you can find some DSDD 360 KByte floppies and FORMAT them yourself! For PUTR, try: http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/ Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From black at gco.apana.org.au Fri Mar 19 16:01:14 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel References: <01be71d7$18d0d880$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36F2C929.BDED6D5C@gco.apana.org.au> Jason Willgruber wrote: > Earlier today, I was reading an article in a magazine that I get (Science > News) that said Supercomputers were made faster by connecting them in > parallel (and I think someone here was talking about doing it with a bunch > of C64's). That got me thinking. - I have a bunch of old computers, some > network cards, and a big table in my basement. There is a fellow in comp.sys.cbm a few months ago who mentioned that he was designing a par. op.sys. around half a dozen linked 128's. Not sure how far he progressed (the mail feed I get now doesn't carry that particular newsgroup), but he'd gone quite some way into designing it.... will look up my archives & see if I can extract the relevant info. cheers, Lance From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 19 00:05:37 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c In-Reply-To: <000901be71b6$03ddb2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> References: <000901be71b6$03ddb2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <19990319060537.23805.qmail@brouhaha.com> > For those of you who missed it the last time > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79618079 How dare you post about eBay auctions here! There's a separate list for that, you know! :-) (In case you're emoticon-challenged, I'm being sarcastic.) From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Fri Mar 19 00:15:35 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! Message-ID: <01be71cf$e6afc340$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Jerome Fine To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 19 March 1999 17:29 Subject: Re: Disks! 5.25" disks! I'm in *heaven*! >>Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> See >> >> http://store.imation.com/ >> >> and Diskette Products. DD 5.25" disks! Rapturous! They even have them >> for RX-50! *And* 8" disks! But be prepared to pay through the nose, of >> course ... If anyone in OZ wants/needs some 5.25" DSDD floppies, I have about 20 or so boxes of genuine Verbatim disks, still in the original shrinkwrap, complete with hard plastic flip top case. Email me off the list if you are interested, I'm in South Australia, about 140 road miles nnw of Adelaide. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From bluoval at mindspring.com Fri Mar 19 05:08:30 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: infinity Message-ID: <36F2302E.705E6541@mindspring.com> What computer was in the movie 'Infinity' w/ Mathew Broderick? It was a big machine, with a typewriter interface and paper punch. What was it used for? From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Mar 19 06:43:38 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <1fcf06fe.36f2467a@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 18.03.99 19:40:17, schreiben Sie: << > Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with > that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very > biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. > So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new site yaBe.com .... -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay >> I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! John G. Zabolitzky From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Mar 19 07:15:13 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question Message-ID: <004201be720a$8671d8c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Chuck Wrote... >I would like to put together a simple PDP-11 system. I've got a M7270 card >(LSI 11 processor) and an M8044-DB card (32KW MOS memory). I've also got a >couple of PDP-11/03 and PDP-11/23 rack chassis that are both QBUS. I've >also got a pair of RX02 drives. Does the M7270 go into an 11/03 chassis? > >What other cards would I need to build a usable '11 ? No doubt a floppy >controller card of some sort (although I also recently got the DSD440 to go >with the funky RX02 emulator card) Some sort of serial port for a terminal >(M number?) What is the minimum RT-11 system? > >I also picked up the programmers panel for a PDP-11/10. I'd love to put >together a PDP-11/10 if I new what to look for. Hey Chuck - A while back I picked up a box with a pretty fair amount of LSI-11 stuff. AIR, it had some front panel cards, some processor cards, some memory cards, etc. etc. I really have no interest in the LSI-11 stuff, so you're welcome to have it. If I get a chance this weekend I'll come up with a list of what all's there LSI11 related... Jay West From at258 at osfn.org Fri Mar 19 07:17:30 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: First, buy a machete. Second, hack off the offender's naughty bits. On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I want a few people's opinions before I take any actions: > > My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some > of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - > someone from my school). > > What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the > person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze > '95 that can be downloaded? > > Where or who would I report this person to? FCC? > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Fri Mar 19 07:19:28 1999 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine In-Reply-To: <199903190229.AA08689@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 18, 99 09:29:55 pm Message-ID: <199903191319.IAA04286@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I am interested in learning more about p-machines. Does anyone have some references, faqs or web sites that would help? Thanks. john > > <> > 1979 > <> > First multi-user operating system CROMIX (UNIX derivative) > <> > > <> > First multi-user operating system...what? On a micro? Maybe. > <> > <> Even then, dubious. When did OS-9 come out? > < > < > > Lessee there are some points of order... > > Alpha Micro AM100 was a sorta LSI-11 in that it used the same chip set and > was similar but not compatable in any way. > > The Western Digital PASCAL Microengine was a P-machine and operationally > as well as programativcally very different from DEC PDP-11. It did however > use the same chipset. > > The chipset is WD13 and it's functionality is determined by microms > (microprogramming roms). Alpha micro was very close to the PDP-11 but > far enough away to avoid copyright problems. The WD P-engine was oneof the > few direct P-code executing systems (a stack machine). > > All very interesting machine as they were pushing the microcomputer envelope > for the time. > > Allison > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From bluoval at mindspring.com Fri Mar 19 07:20:39 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: test? Message-ID: <36F24F27.533B6388@mindspring.com> test. I can't see my posts. why? From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Mar 19 07:46:16 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c Message-ID: <002501be720e$deda2720$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I'm sorry. please don't hurt me. I...I don't know what happened, I guess I was under the influence of eBay. They sent subliminal messages instructing me to post on the list. It's not my fault I swear I didn't mean to... Oh WTF at $3 and a 1000 available it seemed like a good deal for all of us heck you can even get two if you want. Francois PS: :-) me too. >> For those of you who missed it the last time >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=79618079 > >How dare you post about eBay auctions here! There's a separate list for >that, you know! :-) > >(In case you're emoticon-challenged, I'm being sarcastic.) > From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Mar 19 08:21:52 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: test? Message-ID: <80256739.004F8763.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > test. I can't see my posts. why? Possibly the list engine has your mail status as "noack" - not sending your posts to you. Send the list engine (listproc@u.washington.edu) a message with "set classiccmp mail ack" in it. Just a thought. Philip. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 19 09:03:50 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel In-Reply-To: <01be71d7$18d0d880$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990319090350.00d104b0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:07 PM 3/18/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: >Earlier today, I was reading an article in a magazine that I get (Science >News) that said Supercomputers were made faster by connecting them in >parallel (and I think someone here was talking about doing it with a bunch >of C64's). This is highly off-topic for this list - along with discussions of (contemporary) computer security and/or retaliatory recommendations, etc. Hardly a minute goes by on the net without some youngster hearing about a new processor, or a pile of old processors, chanting the word "beowulf" and thinking that 1 + 1 + 1 + overhead suddenly equals 10. Also, it's a sure sign they aren't paying the electric bill, and can't afford a $200 PC that'll beat the pants off their dream cluster. Sure, there's the sheer hack value, but... - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 19 09:04:06 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine In-Reply-To: <199903191319.IAA04286@mastif.ee.nd.edu> References: <199903190229.AA08689@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990319090406.00d18100@vpwisfirewall> At 08:19 AM 3/19/99 -0500, John Ott wrote: > >I am interested in learning more about p-machines. Does anyone have >some references, faqs or web sites that would help? I have an aging UCSD Pascal history page at my online computer museum: . I'd love to get a Microengine someday. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 19 09:03:51 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <1fcf06fe.36f2467a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990319090351.00d11100@vpwisfirewall> At 07:43 AM 3/19/99 EST, Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: >>I suggest you call this new >> site yaBe.com .... >I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! Sorry, domain already taken. - John From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Mar 19 09:13:25 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market References: <1fcf06fe.36f2467a@aol.com> Message-ID: <36F26995.42B6B35F@halcyon.com> eBay has a "wanted" site. See http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBoard&name=wanted or go to http://pages.ebay.com/aw/ps.html and select Wanted Page at the bottom. Dave Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > > In einer eMail vom 18.03.99 19:40:17, schreiben Sie: > > << > > Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > > ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with > > that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very > > biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. > > > > So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite > of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're > looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to > pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new > site yaBe.com .... > > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay > > >> > > I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! > > John G. Zabolitzky From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Mar 19 09:18:24 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: More spring cleaning...more books FS and giveaway. Message-ID: <199903191518.KAA26511@golden.net> All softcover, unless otherwise noted, in very good condition (were unused review copies), prices (if one) is in US$, and shipping is extra. First come, first served. This list includes books about micrcomputers, laboratory applications, microprocessors, Apple II stuff, UNIX, and X/Windows. -Animation, Games, and Sound C64, IBM PC, TI 99/4A $2 -Computer Graphics Toolbox C64, VIC 20 $2 -Computer Graphics Toolbox Timex 1000 and Sinclair ZX-81 $2 -Powering Programming Graphics and Sound for C64 $0 -Microcomputer Displays, Graphics, and Animation by Bruce Artwick - creator of Flight Simulator $5 -Applied Concepts in Microcomputer Graphics by Artwick (hardcover) $10 -AT&T PC6300 Made Easy (hardcover) $4 -Basics Reference Manual 2 vol covering: PC jr., DEC Rainbow, C64, TRS Model 100 portable, Atari, Apple, VIC-20, and IBM $8 -Mastering C64 $0 -Using and Programming the IBM PC/AT $0 -Comprehensive Guide to the IBM PC $3 -Applied BASIC for Microcomputers $0 -IBM PC Conversion Handbook of BASIC $0 -Programming in BASIC for the IBM PC (hardcover) $2 -IBM PC/XT BASIC $0 -BASIC Scientific Subroutines 2 vol (hardcover) $10 -Microsoft BASIC $0 -C64 BASIC Made Easy (hardcover) $5 -Assembler for the IBM PC (hardcover) $5 -dBase II for beginners (hardcover) $3 -Hard Disk Management w/ diskette $3 -Laboratory Automation with the IBM PC (hardcover) $0 -IBM PC in the Lab (hardcover) $3 -Interfacing to S-100/IEEE 696 Microcomputers (Osborne) $0 -Interfacing Lab Applications to Microcomputers for Instrumentation, Data Analysis, and Control $3 -16 bit Microprocessors 8086 and 68000 $3 -8086/8087/8088 Macro Assembler Reference Manual (published by Intel in 3 ring binder format) $5 -Microcomputer systems: architecture, programming, and design of the 8086/8088 Family (hardcover) $8 -Microcomputer experimentation with the Intel SDK-85 $5 -Z80 Assembler (Osborne) $3 -Z8000 Assembler (Osborne) $5 -Z8000 Microcomputer Design Handbook (hardcover) $5 -Z8000 User's Reference Manual (Zilog) $5 -MC68000 Microprocessor Handbook (Osborne) $5 -MC68000 16/32 bit Microprocessor Programmer's Reference Manual (Motorola) $5 -MC68881 and 2 Floating Point Coprocessor User's Manual $0 -Programming and Designing with the 68000 Family (hardcover) $5 -MC68000 Assembler (hardcover) $5 -MC68000 Microprocessor Family Assembler (hardcover) $5 -6502 Assembler (Osborne) $5 -MIPS RISC Architecture - R2000/2010 and R3000/3010 $0 -Realtime Personal Computing for Data Acquisition and Control (big) $5 -Microcomputer Interfacing (hardcover) $3 -Microprocessor-based design: a comprehensive guide (big) $5 -Complete Guide to RS-232 and Parallel Connections (big) $10 -RS-232 Made Easy $5 -IBM PC/XT - Making the Right Connections (outstanding - device level, data communications, and LAN with photographs and is hardcover) $10 -Microprocessor Hardware Operation and Troubleshooting with IBM PC Applications (hardcover) $10 -CP/M User Guide (Osborne) $3 -Apple PC for Beginners (Apple II) (hardcover) $5 -Apple IIe PC for Beginners $3 -Apple House (computerize your home) (hardcover) $5 -Apple IIe BASIC for technical applications $0 -Apple II/IIe Robotic Arm Projects (hardcover) $3 -Calculator Clout $3 -Scientific Analysis for Programmable Calculators $3 -Innovations in Electronic Mail '88 $5 UNIX System V 1987 by AT&T $20 for library: -Utilities Release Notes -Programmer's Guide -Programmer's Reference Manual -Streams Primer -Network Programmer's Guide -Streams Programmer's Guide -User's Guide (2nd edition) -User's Reference Manual UNIX System V/386 by AT&T $20 for library: -Release 4 Product Overview and Master Index '91 -Programmer's Reference Manual '88 - Streams Primer '88 -System Administrator's Reference Manual '88 -User's Guide (2nd edition) '88 -Programmer's Guide '88 -Streams Programmer's Guide '88 -Network Programmer's Guide '88 -System Administrator's Guide '88 other UNIX books by AT&T: -The UNIX System User's Manual '86, AT&T Info Systems $5 -The UNIX System User's Guide '86, AT&T Bell Labs (hardcover) $10 -UNIX System Readings and Applications 2 volumes '87 $10 -AT&T Computer Software Catalog UNIX System V Software '87 (thick) $5 -AT&T Computer Software Catalog Workstation Software '87 (thick) $5 other UNIX books: -The Design of the UNIX operating system '86 (hardcover) $10 -UNIX Administration Guide for System V $3 -The UNIX System V Environment $3 -X Window System Version 11, Release 4 complete reference to: Xlib, Protocol, ICCCM, and XLFD $3 -X Window System Toolkit $2 -Open Software Foundation, Application Environment Specification, (AES) User Environment Volume '91 (hardcover) $5 -OSF/Motif Style Guide '90 $0 -OSF/Motif User's Guide '90 $0 -OSF/Motif Programmer's Guide '90 $0 -OSF/Motif Reference Guide '90 $0 That's all folks. Happy collecting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Mar 19 09:20:54 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <01BE71F2.2CC0CDD0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Friday, March 19, 1999 10:04 AM, John Foust [SMTP:jfoust@threedee.com] wrote: > At 07:43 AM 3/19/99 EST, Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > >>I suggest you call this new > >> site yaBe.com .... I'd suggest "NAUGHTY_BAY.COM"... That way you can sell porno banners and generate some revenue. Steve Robertson - From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 19 09:29:36 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:09 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <01BE71F2.2CC0CDD0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990319092936.010ba310@vpwisfirewall> At 10:20 AM 3/19/99 -0500, Steve Robertson wrote: > >I'd suggest "NAUGHTY_BAY.COM"... That way you can sell porno banners and generate some revenue. Not taken - yet! is a great place for searching domain names. There are 501 domains today containing the word "naughty". - John From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Mar 19 09:47:08 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990319094708.00989920@texas.net> Jason, >The better thing to do would be to either a) beat senseless the punk who >broke into your system (my first choice), b) hack into his computer and >retaliate, c) both. >Of course, if you can lay hands on the bugger who did it... >First, buy a machete. >Second, hack off the offender's naughty bits. I have seen many e-mails which support violence and revenge. This should be a kinder-gentler world because it takes a village you know. Let bygones be bygones and this will pass. And in a few months when the memory is gone things will be better. Then sneak over to the guy's house and fill his gas tank with a full bag of sugar! THEN load Linux onto your system and live the good life. You're Welcome, Arfon P.S. May I suggest Slackware? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 19 10:02:23 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c References: <002501be720e$deda2720$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <36F2750E.A2DA5116@rain.org> Francois wrote: > > I'm sorry. please don't hurt me. I...I don't know what happened, I guess I > was under the influence of eBay. They sent subliminal messages No, you were under the influence of informing list members of something they might be interested in! And the price for this book at $3 is excellent! I bought 10 of them last time including a number for other members of the Classic Computer Club here in Santa Barbara. The book is an excellent way to introduce new people to the early microcomputer history. I sell them at $4 (my cost including shipping) to other interested parties. From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 19 10:15:58 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) References: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36F2783E.E28A484@rain.org> Jason Willgruber wrote: > > I want a few people's opinions before I take any actions: > > My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some > of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - > someone from my school). > > What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the > person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze > '95 that can be downloaded? What was the attitude of the person who did it? If it was malicious, the other suggestions given have a lot of merit. If not, then talk to the person to let them know you didn't appreciate their "cleverness" and drop it. From joe at barrera.org Thu Mar 18 20:18:19 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: OT OT OT really OT [Re: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info?] References: Message-ID: <000201be7227$319df8c0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> [ Zane sez: ] > I've seen the light. I'm now running Win95 and WinNT 4.0 Server (Yes, > legal copies, I bought them in a fit of madness about a year ago when I > wanted to learn some about them) on my PII/333. However, since I don't > want my system to crash I'm running them under Linux. I had Linux, Win95, > and WinNT Server all running at the same time on the same system last > night! I agree, this is just the coolest thing. For those who don't know what the heck we're talking about, see http://www2.vmware.com/products/linuxscreen.html > BTW, how's everything up there in Redmond going with the port of MS Office > to Linux that supposedly isn't happening? Actually, I live in the SF Bay Area (San Bruno), not Redmond. And I think we'll have to wait for the split-up of Microsoft (or maybe the massive upcoming reorg that we have to read about in the papers) before Office will compete against Windows... - Joe From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 19 10:45:03 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <002f01be7227$eb729a80$70483cd1@fuj03> If someone else got into your computer, it is because you let them in. Today's attitudes toward personal responsibility suggest that if someone steals your property, it is your fault for having it or at least for having let someone else see it. If someone trespasses on your property, it is your fault for not providing them an easier way to get where they want to go. If someone trespasses on your property to rob you or to vandalize your property, it is your fault for having the things they wish to steal or vandalize . . . get the picture? What I find mysterious is how someone could gain access to the computer in question in the first place. The most effective security measure is to disconnect the computer from the outside world when the owner is not using the connection to the outside world. A dialup server utility is just an invitation to vandals. If you must use a dialup server utility, then use it with a computer, the content of which is saved in a secure location not accessible to the outside world, e.g a complete backup made when the system was not accessible from outside. If you have security, e.g. passwording, user authentication, encryption, etc, do not share this security information with anyone under any circumstances, including life and death, no matter whose. If you value your data, you must never, Never, NEVER, put a floppy diskette in your computer which has been within 2 miles of a college campus since it was last formatted. In fact, you should never, Never, NEVER, put a floppy diskette which has been within 2 miles of a college campus (or high school, for that matter) inside a 50-meter radius of your computer even if it never goes into any computer at your site. You see? A few simple precautions will enable you to avoid damage from the outside if you rigorously adhere to them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) > > >Jason Willgruber wrote: >> >> I want a few people's opinions before I take any actions: >> >> My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some >> of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - >> someone from my school). >> >> What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the >> person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze >> '95 that can be downloaded? > >What was the attitude of the person who did it? If it was malicious, the >other suggestions given have a lot of merit. If not, then talk to the person >to let them know you didn't appreciate their "cleverness" and drop it. From joe at barrera.org Fri Mar 19 11:02:37 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c References: <002501be720e$deda2720$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <006701be722a$4c745d80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> > Oh WTF at $3 and a 1000 available it seemed like a good deal for all of us > heck you can even get two if you want. Hmm. Actually, last time I looked, vintagecomputers and sassy-scottie were in a bidding war for all 1000 copies. I think the price is up to $13.25 per copy. And don't be surprised if imsai snipes all 1000 at $26 a copy at the last second. - Joe OEE (obvious emoticon elided) From amirault at epix.net Fri Mar 19 11:31:13 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 References: <000e01be71a4$9af86d60$48483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <36F289E1.122881E0@epix.net> Dick, I have an easier way to do it. Use the correct monitor. I got lost reading your message. Thanks for all the info even though I don't understand it. John Amirault Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If you're thinking about the monitor as being useable with a PC, it depends > on which type it is. The lower-resolution type (I once had one) will work > at 1024x768 if you connect a resistor of about 500 ohms between the > composite blanking signal on the "application connector" to the GREEN output > from the card. This will impose the composite blanking beneath the GREEN > video, and bias the GREEN up by about enough to make the composite blanking > look like a composite sync, since it's of the right frequency. The GREEN > input is usually AC coupled at the monitor, and terminated to ground through > 75 ohms. This is worth a try, but may not work on all card-monitor > combinations. > > It will of course not work at all until you load the 1kx768 driver, which > will only happen when the hi-res GUI is loaded. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 5:27 PM > Subject: Re: Apollo 400 > > > > >Ours stands about waist high and has to weigh over 100#. since it has > >wheels, it is, of course, portabel...;) The monitor on ours appears to > >be secured to the top. Ours was the main server on a token ring. > > > >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > > > >> Merle, > >> I would not call my HP Apollo 400 a portable by any means. It stands > >> about 2' tall and weighs in @ about 70 pounds, which is the top end of > >> what my doctors say I can lift and I find that trying to do this is very > >> pain full, thank goodness for friends and hand trucks. Mine has no > >> wheels. Mine also has a cable with three BNC connectors on each end to > >> hook up the monitor. I have been told of a possible source for a monitor > >> and I say thanks Sellam and I will check into it. > >> > >> JOhn Amirault > >> > >> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > >> > > >> > Perhaps I'm thinking of the 300 series? Is the 400 the very large > >> > portable with its own wheels? > >> > > >> > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >> > > >> > > I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Mike, > >> > > > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? > >> > > > JOhn Amirault > >> > > > > >> > > > Mike Ford wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite > scrappers, and > >> > > > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers > (says > >> > > > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise > they are > >> > > > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > M. K. Peirce > >> > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >> > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > >> > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >> > > > >> > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > >> > > > >> > > - Ovid > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > M. K. Peirce > >> > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >> > 215 Shady Lea Road, > >> > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >> > > >> > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > >> > > >> > - Ovid > >> > > > >M. K. Peirce > >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >215 Shady Lea Road, > >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 11:31:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) (fwd) Message-ID: Cromemco, a company that cares! Here's a reply I received from them this morning in reply to the message I sent yesterday questioning their history: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:35:55 +0100 To: 'Sellam Ismail' Subject: RE: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) E-Mail From: Werner Salmen Cromemco GmbH Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Strasse 4 D-61350 Bad Homburg Germany Tel.: Int + 49 6172 967860 Fax: Int + 49 6172 304519 To: Sellam Ismail Attn.: Email: dastar@ncal.verio.com @ cc: Ref.: Your E-Mail of March 18 Date: March 19, 1999 Subj.: Cromemco Dear Sellam, thank you for visiting Cromemco's homepage and also for your input, which was very much appreciated. You know, marketing occassionally tends to express things in their own wording. We shall release a next version of our homepage in April. I think, obvious errors should then be corrected. However, it is always nice to talk to people who used ( some still do !) the Cromemco computers from the 80's. Many of them still like the stuff, although from nowadays point of view they look pretty antique. Believe it or not, we just worked on fixing the Y2K problem in Cromix, and it was a lot of fun. The company Cromemco itself did change, as you may have learned form our webpage. The new businesses are now mainly in Europe, and we do a lot in parallel and massively parallel computing, still comitted to Cromemco's mission: "Tomorrow's computers today". I wish you a nice weekend and remain with Best regards, Cromemco Werner Salmen -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@ncal.verio.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:36 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Cc: webmaster@cromemco.com Subject: Re: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > > > ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems > > > until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. > > > > as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... > > > > You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the > > previous thot in stone... > > You're kidding! > > Wow, you're not. But this is a far different company than us old tech > nerds know and love. Most of the business base seems to be European > these days. But hey, this is significant. A micro/mini-computer company > that's been around longer than Apple and is still alive and kicking. > That's more than you can say for any other computer comapnies that sprang > up around the same time, save for the obvious. Their history seems a bit revisionist, and in some cases downright fradulent. This is from the History section of their web site: 1975 First supplier of complete micro computer systems (based on Z-80) Call me stupid but the Z80 wasn't even invented yet: July 1976 The Apple I computer board is sold in kit form, and delivered to stores by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Price: US$666.66. [46] [218] [593.350] Paul Terrell orders 50 Apple computers from Steve Jobs, for his Byte Shop. [266.213] *****Zilog releases the 2.5-MHz Z80, an 8-bit microprocessor whose instruction set is a superset of the Intel 8080. [32] [202.168] (early 1975 [9]) (1975 [556.11]) (1975 December [346.257]) Micom Data Systems ships its first product, the Micom 2000 word processing computer. [615.99] Source: Chronology of Events in the History of Microcomputers http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist/comp1971.htm And then there's: 1976 Development of the industrial standard S-100 Bus IEEE 696 First of all, I hope they don't intend to mean they invented the S-100 bus. That goes to Ed Roberts. And as far as I know, the IEEE696 standard wasn't ratified until 1982. December 1982 Pepsi-Cola president John Sculley first visits Apple Computer. [745.62] Tabor demonstrates a 3.25-inch floppy disk drive, the Model TC500 Drivette. Unformatted capacity is up to 500KB on a single side. [444.72] Amdek releases the Amdisk-3 Micro-Floppy-disk Cartridge system. It houses two 3-inch floppy drives designed by Hitachi/Matsushita/Maxell. Price is US$800, without a controller card. [444.70] Satellite Software International ships WordPerfect 2.0 for DOS, for US$500. [330.108] (v2.2 in October [502.49]) *****The IEEE Standards Board passes the IEEE 696/S-100 bus standard. [443.278] Digital Research announces CP/M+. [443.431] Atari issues a US$55 rebate on the Atari 400, dropping its retail price to under US$200. [713.268] Texas Instruments extends its US$100 rebate on the TI 99/4A to April 1983. [713.268] Apple Computer becomes the first personal computer company to reach US$1 billion in annual sales. [46] Source: Chronology of Events in the History of Microcomputers http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist/comp1981.htm Then there's this: 1979 First multi-user operating system CROMIX (UNIX derivative) First multi-user operating system...what? On a micro? Maybe. Sheesh. These guys are as bad if not worse than Tandy and their self-aggrandizing history. (Is it obvious I have too much time on my hands these days? Oh well, someone's got to keep the record straight.) cc: webmaster@cromemco.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 19 11:36:26 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Another treasure for grabs Message-ID: <36F28B1A.C34C7407@wfi-inc.com> (Seems like this is the month to dump extra junk on fellow list members!) No unreasonable offer refused... To anyone who wants to pay the outrageous shipping (or pick up in Southern California), a Sun 3/50. 12meg RAM, type 3 keyboard, mouse (I think). It's the flat-style case, although I also have a non-working 3/50 in a dimple case for anyone who wants that as well. I was using it as an X terminal for a while, but it's been sitting under a pile of HP stuff for 6 months... Aaron Please send any responses to A_Finney@wfi-inc.com From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Mar 19 09:27:58 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990319092758.2eef37ce@earthlink.net> Hi all, At 01:08 PM 3/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> ...Cromemco actively manufactured S-100 systems >> until they went out of business in around 1986 or so. > >as much as I absolutely hate to contradict... > >You may want to take a look at www.cromemco.com before you cast the >previous thot in stone... I could find only http://www.cromemco.com/EN/en.html, but no links to any history, etc. They seemed to change, though. When did Harry Garland and Roger Melen sell their share and Cromemco go another way? Didn't they once sell weather displays for TV weather reporting? -Dave From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 11:59:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <1fcf06fe.36f2467a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite > of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're > looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to > pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new > site yaBe.com .... > > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay > > >> > > I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! It is a good idea but let me be the naysayer for a moment. Say someone does go through the trouble to create such a cool site. A bunch of guys sick of the ebay atrocity start posting want ads for stuff they want. And they wait. And wait. And wait. And...nothing ever comes of it. People who are selling this stuff come to the page, see someone wanting an Exidy Sorcerer for $15 and go "HAH! I can get 20 times that on ebay!" Then they go to ebay and get 20 times that. Now I would think that many on this list are more interested in trading computers in a sane manner with other like-minded hobbyists, and on the strength of that alone will this work. Now let's say that a trading board is added, where people can post stuff they have for sale or trade there. Let's say some really cool things are offered for sane prices, like S-100 systems and cards, interesting micro's from the 80s, PDP-8 hardware and software, etc. Good stuff. All being offered at reasonable prices because its offered by hobbyists intended for hobbyists. Now, along comes some jerk with a lot of money, he starts buying up everything that gets posted, and then even worse, a couple weeks later this stuff starts showing up on ebay and getting sold for the same old ridiculous prices! Now, what I'm trying to say is, while this sounds like a very cool idea, it has the potential to get destroyed by the very thing we're trying to avoid. A system needs to be designed to insure that there is a level of integrity maintained, otherwise you just have another ebay, and one ebay is bad enough. I don't have any ideas on this (yet) but I think it should be well thought out before anyone even bothers to set up the site. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Mar 19 11:57:51 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c In-Reply-To: <006701be722a$4c745d80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> References: <002501be720e$deda2720$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990319125401.00a12a20@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:02 AM 3/19/99 -0800, Joseph S. Barrera III said something like: >> Oh WTF at $3 and a 1000 available it seemed like a good deal for all of us >> heck you can even get two if you want. > >Hmm. Actually, last time I looked, vintagecomputers and sassy-scottie were >in a bidding war for all 1000 copies. I think the price is up to $13.25 per >copy. And don't be surprised if imsai snipes all 1000 at $26 a copy at the >last second. Is that item #79618079? I just checked and they're at only $3.00 with six bidders, Aaron being the latest one. I'll be the seventh. There must be more than one Dutch Auction the publisher is presenting to explain this. Let those two characters duke it out for their price. This auction (79618079) will be for us who want to pay $3 + $3 shipping ;-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 12:03:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine In-Reply-To: <199903191319.IAA04286@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, John Ott wrote: > I am interested in learning more about p-machines. Does anyone have > some references, faqs or web sites that would help? Goto the VCF Links page and hop down to the Classic Operating System Resources section. There's a link there to a p-System description page. http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 12:10:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: More spring cleaning...more books FS and giveaway. In-Reply-To: <199903191518.KAA26511@golden.net> Message-ID: Hey Kevin! I'm interested in whatever of the following have not yet been claimed. Thanks! > -Laboratory Automation with the IBM PC (hardcover) $0 > -IBM PC in the Lab (hardcover) $3 > -Interfacing to S-100/IEEE 696 Microcomputers (Osborne) $0 > -Interfacing Lab Applications to Microcomputers for > Instrumentation, Data Analysis, and Control $3 > -Microcomputer experimentation with the Intel SDK-85 $5 > -Z8000 Assembler (Osborne) $5 > -Z8000 Microcomputer Design Handbook (hardcover) $5 > -Z8000 User's Reference Manual (Zilog) $5 > -Microcomputer Interfacing (hardcover) $3 > -Microprocessor-based design: a comprehensive guide (big) $5 > -Apple House (computerize your home) (hardcover) $5 > -Apple II/IIe Robotic Arm Projects (hardcover) $3 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 19 12:06:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 Message-ID: <000c01be7233$41e9ea20$4c483cd1@fuj03> You're right of course, but many people buy junked workstations just to get the high-resolution monitor, and then find that a video card completely suitable for the job costs more than a suitable monitor would have cost. I once tried this and found that the 15" (a BIG one by 1988 standards) APOLLO monitor I had was VERY well focused and VERY linear, but would work only at 1024x768 as a second monitor. Back then Windows wasn't available in a form that was of any use, but my CAE software had drivers which would exploit the higher resolution and allowed me to present 1:1 images of my drawings as sharp and clear images as opposed to the rather disappointing ones I got with the normal 640x400 images I was then used to. While these "retired" workstations are tempting, their sheer mass makes them forbidding, unless one considers the possibility of using the monitor as a high-res display for whatever purpose one desires. I found that a 1/8-watt resistor and a switch mounted on the backpanel bracket was not too much effort or expense to warrant such an application. Of course, back then, I had to pay over $1k for a NEC 4D, the equivalent of which costs about $200 these days. Nevertheless, this is a decent way to get some immediate benefit from the act of recycling an old workstation while you work on the problems associated with getting the workstation to work as a workstation once more. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Amirault To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Apollo 400 >Dick, >I have an easier way to do it. Use the correct monitor. I got lost >reading your message. >Thanks for all the info even though I don't understand it. >John Amirault > >Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> If you're thinking about the monitor as being useable with a PC, it depends >> on which type it is. The lower-resolution type (I once had one) will work >> at 1024x768 if you connect a resistor of about 500 ohms between the >> composite blanking signal on the "application connector" to the GREEN output >> from the card. This will impose the composite blanking beneath the GREEN >> video, and bias the GREEN up by about enough to make the composite blanking >> look like a composite sync, since it's of the right frequency. The GREEN >> input is usually AC coupled at the monitor, and terminated to ground through >> 75 ohms. This is worth a try, but may not work on all card-monitor >> combinations. >> >> It will of course not work at all until you load the 1kx768 driver, which >> will only happen when the hi-res GUI is loaded. >> >> Dick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Merle K. Peirce >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 5:27 PM >> Subject: Re: Apollo 400 >> >> > >> >Ours stands about waist high and has to weigh over 100#. since it has >> >wheels, it is, of course, portabel...;) The monitor on ours appears to >> >be secured to the top. Ours was the main server on a token ring. >> > >> >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: >> > >> >> Merle, >> >> I would not call my HP Apollo 400 a portable by any means. It stands >> >> about 2' tall and weighs in @ about 70 pounds, which is the top end of >> >> what my doctors say I can lift and I find that trying to do this is very >> >> pain full, thank goodness for friends and hand trucks. Mine has no >> >> wheels. Mine also has a cable with three BNC connectors on each end to >> >> hook up the monitor. I have been told of a possible source for a monitor >> >> and I say thanks Sellam and I will check into it. >> >> >> >> JOhn Amirault >> >> >> >> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Perhaps I'm thinking of the 300 series? Is the 400 the very large >> >> > portable with its own wheels? >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > I think the 400 series have integral monitors, John. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, John Amirault wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > Mike, >> >> > > > Is this the HP Apollo 400? If yes,are there any monitors? >> >> > > > JOhn Amirault >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Mike Ford wrote: >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > I had a pleasant afternoon poking around one of my favorite >> scrappers, and >> >> > > > > noticed on an incoming cart about two dozen Apollo 400 computers >> (says >> >> > > > > model 425 on the back). Hard drives are pulled, but otherwise >> they are >> >> > > > > supposed to be complete. Any interest? (he is in Santa Ana CA) >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > M. K. Peirce >> >> > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >> >> > > 215 Shady Lea Road, >> >> > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> >> > > >> >> > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> >> > > >> >> > > - Ovid >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > M. K. Peirce >> >> > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >> >> > 215 Shady Lea Road, >> >> > North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> >> > >> >> > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> >> > >> >> > - Ovid >> >> >> > >> >M. K. Peirce >> >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >> >215 Shady Lea Road, >> >North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> > >> >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> > >> > - Ovid >> > From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Mar 19 12:13:01 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c Message-ID: <01BE720A.37AFCC60.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > Hmm. Actually, last time I looked, vintagecomputers and sassy-scottie were > in a bidding war for all 1000 copies. I think the price is up to $13.25 per > copy. And don't be surprised if imsai snipes all 1000 at $26 a copy at the > last second. > > - Joe > > OEE (obvious emoticon elided) > > > Now I feel guilty... I bid on a copy not realizing it was driving up the price for everyone else ;-) Steve Robertson - From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Mar 19 12:07:46 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Another treasure for grabs In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney's message of Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:36:26 -0800 References: <36F28B1A.C34C7407@wfi-inc.com> Message-ID: <199903191807.KAA23762@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > To anyone who wants to pay the outrageous shipping (or pick up in > Southern California), a Sun 3/50. 12meg RAM, type 3 keyboard, mouse (I > think). It's the flat-style case, although I also have a non-working > 3/50 in a dimple case for anyone who wants that as well. I was using it > as an X terminal for a while, but it's been sitting under a pile of HP > stuff for 6 months... Y'know, sometimes that can be the solution to a problem. When I got a Micro GX 3000 (HP) a few years ago, I found it was kind of noisy due to the hard disk in its base. As I lived in a second-floor apartment this was a problem. So I got a Sun 3/60 as a cold spare for one I was running at the time, and put it under the 3000. Just the ticket -- it damped the vibes from the 3000, and I was able to hack late into the night without complaint. -Frank McConnell From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 12:39:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990319092758.2eef37ce@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > I could find only http://www.cromemco.com/EN/en.html, but no links to any > history, etc. Go to www.cromemco.com and click on the History button on the sidebar to the left. It helps if you have frames. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 19 12:52:26 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: 57 PST) - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC !! only $3 !! (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-c In-Reply-To: <006701be722a$4c745d80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> References: <002501be720e$deda2720$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: >> Oh WTF at $3 and a 1000 available it seemed like a good deal for all of us >> heck you can even get two if you want. > >Hmm. Actually, last time I looked, vintagecomputers and sassy-scottie were >in a bidding war for all 1000 copies. I think the price is up to $13.25 per >copy. And don't be surprised if imsai snipes all 1000 at $26 a copy at the >last second. Are you suggesting an Altirer motive? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 19 13:06:50 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <1fcf06fe.36f2467a@aol.com> (Jgzabol@aol.com) References: <1fcf06fe.36f2467a@aol.com> Message-ID: <19990319190650.27146.qmail@brouhaha.com> John wrote: > > Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > > ePay seems to be a seller's market. There's nothing inherently wrong with > > that, but nevertheless I think it sucks. Of course, my opinion is very > > biased, since I'm generally on the buying end of the deal. Careful with that editing! I doubt that Ward wants to take the blame for my flames! Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 19 13:09:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: (at258@osfn.org) References: Message-ID: <19990319190915.27177.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jason wrote: > My computer was recently hacked into, [...] > What would be the best thing to do here Merle K. Peirce replied: > First, buy a machete. > Second, hack off the offender's naughty bits. In this case, would that be his (or her) fingers, or brain? Better take care of both, just to be certain. From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Mar 19 13:06:59 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: More spring cleaning...more books FS and giveaway. Message-ID: <199903191906.OAA27620@golden.net> Hey dude. The following were claimed, but the rest are yours. I'll followup with postage estimate tomorrow. >> -Laboratory Automation with the IBM PC (hardcover) $0 >> -IBM PC in the Lab (hardcover) $3 >> -Interfacing to S-100/IEEE 696 Microcomputers (Osborne) $0 >> -Interfacing Lab Applications to Microcomputers for >> Instrumentation, Data Analysis, and Control $3 >> -Microcomputer Interfacing (hardcover) $3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 19 13:06:41 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market References: Message-ID: <36F2A041.38029A2E@wfi-inc.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Now, what I'm trying to say is, while this sounds like a very cool idea, > it has the potential to get destroyed by the very thing we're trying to > avoid. A system needs to be designed to insure that there is a level of > integrity maintained, otherwise you just have another ebay, and one ebay > is bad enough. On a small scale, it would be a nice resource for the members of this list to have a simple, searchable registry of who's looking for what. You don't even have to disclose what you're willing to pay (I think it'd be much more anti-ebay if there weren't any dollar signs on it at all), but just that you would like anyone who has one of these systems available to contact you. This would simply be a contact facilitator, and the independent parties could then negotiate prices, etc. Worst case would be that the professional auction sellers would find out and start flooding the registrants with URLs of their eBay auctions. But if it's a "registered user" service, it would be simple enough to implement a "no-eBay" policy and boot people for doing that. It would make it *much* easier to negotiate trades too. If party "A" contacts party "B" about the Co-Co they've been looking for, party "B" can look up party "A's" want list and come up with an appropriate trade offer. I don't have much time at all, but have a lot of experience with web programming and would definitely donate whatever time and energy I could to something like this, if someone wanted to actually organise a project... Aaron From donm at cts.com Fri Mar 19 13:48:13 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: test? In-Reply-To: <36F24F27.533B6388@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > test. I can't see my posts. why? > Are you subscribed? - don From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Mar 19 13:51:00 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Sorry list members for misdirected message. Message-ID: <199903191951.OAA15063@golden.net> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 19 13:41:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <002b01be7240$867f0fa0$4c483cd1@fuj03> Sam - First of all - There's already a trading website for CP/M systems and components, by the way. it's at < http://members.aol.com/randymc482/index.htm > It's new and hasn't much on it, but it's certainly available. I don't think everyone is as "hard-over" on the eBay thing as you are. I agree that many people ask far too much for the items they offer for auction. The eBay people publish a transaction success rate of only 70%. This means that while people are willing to bid unreasonable prices, they aren't willing to pay them. Nevertheless, the eBay folks collect a fee based on the price at which the auction closes. It's not a fee based on whether or not a sale is made, but simply on a price, and a very hypothetical one, based on the 70% success rate. That high failure rate of 30% is apparently a percentage of the completed auctions, not a percentage of those started. If no one would bid on an item, the auction would not be completed. Since it's possible, in fact, common for the seller to set a minimum price, it's sure that a significant part of that 30% failure rate that is a response to the all-too-high minimum set by the seller. That's a penalty for being unreasonable. If you were going to set up a site for hobbyists and collectors, which eBay is not, then you'd have to collect earnest money in the amount of the fee to be paid the auctioneer from each bidder, and return the funds paid by all but the winning bidder to the losers after the auction ends. This would ensure a higher completion rate, but would create a lot of work. If you were to collect from the seller, which is certainly reasonable in light of the fact the seller's the only one sure to have some money at the end of the transaction, you'd still have to ensure that the buyer pays. In return, however, you'd have to ensure that what's paid for is what's received by the buyer. All of this gets complicated. Facilitating barter, like facilitating sales, is difficult. Let me cite my own example. I listed a number of items which I know are of interest at least to the people who asked for them, knowing that I didn't want any more than the value of packaging and shipping, yet only one has actually come across with funds to offset postage for the two boards, etc, he asked me to send. I got lots of "I want all of it" without even a close-to-reasonable suggestion as to how to manage packaging, hauling, and shipping. Having gotten rid of the last of the terminals and printers that are going I have about 5 cubic yards of powered chassis and unpowered cardcages in addition to a bunch of cards which will easily fit into the cardcages if that's how I choose to package them. However, I still have to search through a lot of documentation and literally thousands of diskettes in order to put the media together with the doc. Everyone's happy to receive the stuff once it's found and packaged and shipped, yet although I originally indicated I'd be happy to accept "something I can use" (followed by some examples), and all the examples were VERY widely distributed, probably in considerably greater quantity than S-100 systems ever were, I've gotten no offers of these types of devices at all, even though, in several cases, the things are still available and at lower cost than what people seem willing to pay to buy the items I've offered. Hobbyists, you see, are the guys who want everything, want to pay/trade nothing, and only get rid of an item when it's certain they won't have any further use for it. I was once in that category. I did what I did for the love of it, and made a fair amount of money besides. Now I love it a bit less, and don't want all the paraphernalia taking up space if I can't use it for something serious. Now, multiply that by the number of transactions you anticipate facilitating, and you'll see you're up against an enormous expense just in aspirin, MAALOX, whiskey, and prune juice. That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. Does this seem different to you? Dick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: sellers market >>I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! > >It is a good idea but let me be the naysayer for a moment. Say someone >does go through the trouble to create such a cool site. A bunch of guys >sick of the ebay atrocity start posting want ads for stuff they want. >And they wait. And wait. And wait. And...nothing ever comes of it. >People who are selling this stuff come to the page, see someone wanting an >Exidy Sorcerer for $15 and go "HAH! I can get 20 times that on ebay!" >Then they go to ebay and get 20 times that. > >Now I would think that many on this list are more interested in trading >computers in a sane manner with other like-minded hobbyists, and on the >strength of that alone will this work. > >Now let's say that a trading board is added, where people can post stuff >they have for sale or trade there. Let's say some really cool things are >offered for sane prices, like S-100 systems and cards, interesting >micro's from the 80s, PDP-8 hardware and software, etc. Good stuff. All >being offered at reasonable prices because its offered by hobbyists >intended for hobbyists. > >Now, along comes some jerk with a lot of money, he starts buying up >everything that gets posted, and then even worse, a couple weeks later >this stuff starts showing up on ebay and getting sold for the same old >ridiculous prices! > >Now, what I'm trying to say is, while this sounds like a very cool idea, >it has the potential to get destroyed by the very thing we're trying to >avoid. A system needs to be designed to insure that there is a level of >integrity maintained, otherwise you just have another ebay, and one ebay >is bad enough. > >I don't have any ideas on this (yet) but I think it should be well thought >out before anyone even bothers to set up the site. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Mar 19 13:52:21 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: In a message dated 19.3.1999 14:13:44 Eastern Standard Time, af-list@wfi- inc.com writes: > On a small scale, it would be a nice resource for the members of this > list to have a simple, searchable registry of who's looking for what. > You don't even have to disclose what you're willing to pay (I think it'd > be much more anti-ebay if there weren't any dollar signs on it at all), > but just that you would like anyone who has one of these systems > available to contact you. This would simply be a contact facilitator, > and the independent parties could then negotiate prices, etc. > > Worst case would be that the professional auction sellers would find out > and start flooding the registrants with URLs of their eBay auctions. But > if it's a "registered user" service, it would be simple enough to > implement a "no-eBay" policy and boot people for doing that. for an example of this, goto www.aomci.org/webads.htm i collect old outboard motors and their online advertisement area has a similar format. People list what they are looking for along witha contact name and address and that's it. aomci.org also has a newsletter that matches the website. prices are strictly forbidden in the advertisements to prevent artificially high prices and the type of price increases we are seeing in our own hobby. david From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Mar 19 14:30:57 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 19.03.99 19:03:07 MEZ, schreibt Sellam: << On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite > of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're > looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to > pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new > site yaBe.com .... > > -Lawrence (yes I want an Exidy, who doesn't?) LeMay > > >> > > I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! It is a good idea but let me be the naysayer for a moment. Say someone does go through the trouble to create such a cool site. A bunch of guys sick of the ebay atrocity start posting want ads for stuff they want. And they wait. And wait. And wait. And...nothing ever comes of it. People who are selling this stuff come to the page, see someone wanting an Exidy Sorcerer for $15 and go "HAH! I can get 20 times that on ebay!" Then they go to ebay and get 20 times that. Now I would think that many on this list are more interested in trading computers in a sane manner with other like-minded hobbyists, and on the strength of that alone will this work. Now let's say that a trading board is added, where people can post stuff they have for sale or trade there. Let's say some really cool things are offered for sane prices, like S-100 systems and cards, interesting micro's from the 80s, PDP-8 hardware and software, etc. Good stuff. All being offered at reasonable prices because its offered by hobbyists intended for hobbyists. Now, along comes some jerk with a lot of money, he starts buying up everything that gets posted, and then even worse, a couple weeks later this stuff starts showing up on ebay and getting sold for the same old ridiculous prices! Now, what I'm trying to say is, while this sounds like a very cool idea, it has the potential to get destroyed by the very thing we're trying to avoid. A system needs to be designed to insure that there is a level of integrity maintained, otherwise you just have another ebay, and one ebay is bad enough. I don't have any ideas on this (yet) but I think it should be well thought out before anyone even bothers to set up the site. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >> That impresses me as very logical. By that token, no automatic scheme of any sort would work. This seems to point to the need for some kind of registry: differentiating between hobbyists and jerks must be done in an intelligent manner, and someone would be kind of the gatekeeper. Here in Germany we have a point scheme for traffic violations: whenever you commit one, a note is sent to a central registry. When your point sum reaches a limit, you loose your license. This kind of scheme - an extension of the mediated mailing list I would say - may be the right thing here: - Hobbyists apply for the right to participate; - Unless negative info is known, application is granted; - if and when negative info accumulates, right of participation is revoked. Of course, the registrar must be a person really in high esteem by everyone! John G. Zabolitzky From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Mar 19 17:19:39 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <01be725e$f6610bc0$809ba6d1@the-general> I already have power-up passwords, but that doesn't help when the person is hacking in through the Internet after the computer is booted. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:41 PM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) >In a message dated 3/18/99 10:39:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time, >roblwill@usaor.net writes: > >> My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some >> of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - >> someone from my school). >> >> What would be the best thing to do here (other than physically damage the >> person/and/or their computer)? Is there any security programs for Windoze >> '95 that can be downloaded? > >uh, how about a power-on passwoid? >I know some IBM machines have an unattended startup mode that locks the >keyboard and mouse within the os until the passwoid is typed in. What about >hardware locks? seems to be a simple and obvious answer to your problem. > > > supr 'revenge is a delicious dish best served cold' dave > From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Mar 19 17:32:53 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel Message-ID: <01be7260$cf591020$809ba6d1@the-general> You know, not to sound mean, but that sounds like a discouragement to me. I am aware of the fact that it will not be the _fastest_ system around, but it would be interesting to do. Also, considering that when you have 10 odd computers, that may not be the fastest around, and can only be used one at a time, why not have them work together? The last thing I thought I'd see on the list was someone discouraging someone to try something. Just my $.0002 -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Computers in Parallel > >This is highly off-topic for this list - along with discussions of >(contemporary) computer security and/or retaliatory recommendations, >etc. Hardly a minute goes by on the net without some youngster hearing >about a new processor, or a pile of old processors, chanting the >word "beowulf" and thinking that 1 + 1 + 1 + overhead suddenly equals 10. >Also, it's a sure sign they aren't paying the electric bill, and >can't afford a $200 PC that'll beat the pants off their dream cluster. >Sure, there's the sheer hack value, but... > >- John > > From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 14:43:38 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question Message-ID: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> >I would like to put together a simple PDP-11 system. I've got a M7270 >card (LSI 11 processor) and an M8044-DB card (32KW MOS memory). I've also >got a couple of PDP-11/03 and PDP-11/23 rack chassis that are both QBUS. >I've also got a pair of RX02 drives. Does the M7270 go into an 11/03 >chassis? Yes, it does... same ole' qbus... >What other cards would I need to build a usable '11 ? No doubt a floppy >controller card of some sort (although I also recently got the DSD440 to >go with the funky RX02 emulator card) Some sort of serial port for a >terminal (M number?) What is the minimum RT-11 system? You'll need processor (M7270), memory (M8044), serial line card (dlv11-J, M8043), boot/terminator (BDV11, REV11, etc), disk interface card, disk, terminal. Of that list, I think you'll need a BDV11 or REV11, unless the disk controller you have has on-board boot (which the DSD880 controllers do have). If I remember correctly, RT-11 originally booted in as little as 8kb of memory. Later we had to increase the minimum to 12 or 16 kb. >I also picked up the programmers panel for a PDP-11/10. I'd love to put >together a PDP-11/10 if I new what to look for. I wish I'd known earlier... I have a couple of pdp-11/05,10 chassis which I am giving to a group in Rhode Island... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 19 14:44:36 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be71d3$21f82020$c28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some > of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - > someone from my school). What kind of damage were they able to perform on hardware? From at258 at osfn.org Fri Mar 19 14:47:51 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990319094708.00989920@texas.net> Message-ID: Some of us don't support violence and revenge, we mandate it. On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Jason, > > >The better thing to do would be to either a) beat senseless the punk who > >broke into your system (my first choice), b) hack into his computer and > >retaliate, c) both. > > >Of course, if you can lay hands on the bugger who did it... > > >First, buy a machete. > >Second, hack off the offender's naughty bits. > > I have seen many e-mails which support violence and revenge. This should > be a kinder-gentler world because it takes a village you know. Let bygones > be bygones and this will pass. And in a few months when the memory is gone > things will be better. Then sneak over to the guy's house and fill his gas > tank with a full bag of sugar! THEN load Linux onto your system and live > the good life. > > > You're Welcome, > > Arfon > > P.S. May I suggest Slackware? > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From elvey at hal.com Fri Mar 19 14:50:48 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Transistor help In-Reply-To: <199903190037.AA22869@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903192050.MAA06810@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > the 4401 is a good match but the NTE part should work. The NTE part showed only about 50 max on Hfe. The others start from there and go up. I couldn't get the NTE part to even oscillate until I increased the feedback. Even then, it wasn't switching fast enough to make the high voltage swing on the collector. I guess I'll be happy with the 2N4401, It seems to be working well now. DFIIIIB. Dwight From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Mar 19 15:04:23 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990319094708.00989920@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990319150423.0093dae0@texas.net> OOPS! First let's put that "OT:" in the subject before people start yelling. Uh, I was being sarcastic. I fully support violence to vandals! >Some of us don't support violence and revenge, we mandate it. > >On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> >The better thing to do would be to either a) beat senseless the punk who >> >broke into your system (my first choice), b) hack into his computer and >> >retaliate, c) both. >> >> >Of course, if you can lay hands on the bugger who did it... >> >> >First, buy a machete. >> >Second, hack off the offender's naughty bits. >> >> I have seen many e-mails which support violence and revenge. This should >> be a kinder-gentler world because it takes a village you know. Let bygones >> be bygones and this will pass. And in a few months when the memory is gone >> things will be better. Then sneak over to the guy's house and fill his gas >> tank with a full bag of sugar! THEN load Linux onto your system and live >> the good life. ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Mar 19 18:09:00 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <01be7265$db106260$809ba6d1@the-general> Check out my website: http://members.tripod.com/general_1 -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some >> of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - >> someone from my school). > >What kind of damage were they able to perform on hardware? > From william at ans.net Fri Mar 19 15:20:29 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: SWTPC paper for sale Message-ID: I am preparing to haul a bunch of micro junk to RCS/RI this weekend, and found some extras in the box. Here we go: * SWTPC MP-01 6800 Computer System, Aug 75. Apparently this was the early "sales" document, with descriptions and prices for the various boards and things. Included is a Q and A section, with inqueries like "What type terminal do I use?", and "When can I expect to get delivery?". The original order form is still attached to the back, butif you fill it out, I doubt you will get a computer! 8.5" x 11", about 15 pages. * SWTPC Computer Peripherals, Jul 76. Another catalog, this time with pictures for extras like the AC-30, PR-40, and GT-61. Also included is the announcment of the CT-1024 terminal system. For some reason the back cover has been cut oddly - perhaps a flaw from the printers. 8.5" x 11", about 15 pages. * Ready for Business, no date. This is a four page pamphlet showing the whole SWTPC system - CPU, floppy box, AC-30 cassette interface, printer, and terminal, as well as the DMAF1 1 Megabyte Disk System (basically a dual 8" drive box). 8.5" x 11", 4 pages. * SWTPC Computer Products catalog, Dec 76. Basically like the first item on this post, but in a smaller format. 6" x 9", about 15 pages. * SWTPC Computer Products catalog, May 78. Again, like the first item, but now with more stuff (and a better quality job on the document!), but in a smaller format. 6" x 9", about 15 pages. All of this stuff looks sort of cheesy, as some of it was printed before the computers were actually shipping. Most have dates scribbled on them from the previous owner, Owen Davis, who also put his name on several pieces. Nothing of these scribbles, however, are messy or annoying. All of the things are in pretty good shape, with no bad creases or significant rips. I guess will make this best offer. I would prefer to sell it as a lot. Lets give this until Monday afternoon - then I will decide the winner(s). Trades are possible - basically old mainframey and super type things and paper are wanted. Trades with bribes are also possible! William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 15:37:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <36F2A041.38029A2E@wfi-inc.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > It would make it *much* easier to negotiate trades too. If party "A" > contacts party "B" about the Co-Co they've been looking for, party "B" > can look up party "A's" want list and come up with an appropriate trade > offer. > > I don't have much time at all, but have a lot of experience with web > programming and would definitely donate whatever time and energy I could > to something like this, if someone wanted to actually organise a > project... This is exactly the type of trading board that I've been meaning to add to the VCF web site for aeons now. If you can provide the programming I'll certainly host it. Its definitely a needed service. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From gram at cnct.com Fri Mar 19 15:54:40 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel In-Reply-To: <01be7260$cf591020$809ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > You know, not to sound mean, but that sounds like a discouragement to me. I > am aware of the fact that it will not be the _fastest_ system around, but it > would be interesting to do. Also, considering that when you have 10 odd > computers, that may not be the fastest around, and can only be used one at a > time, why not have them work together? The last thing I thought I'd see on > the list was someone discouraging someone to try something. Correct. The individual processors may not be spectacular, but in a cluster with proper load balancing, even slow CPUs can make their mark. Check out the article in the (current & first) isue of Linux Magazine about the Stone SouperComputer at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Or visit http://www.esd.ornl.gov/facilities/beowulf. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Mar 19 15:55:04 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 19, 99 01:37:42 pm Message-ID: <199903192155.NAA29056@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 674 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990319/31b3b033/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 16:00:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <002b01be7240$867f0fa0$4c483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If you were going to set up a site for hobbyists and collectors, which eBay > is not, then you'd have to collect earnest money in the amount of the fee to > be paid the auctioneer from each bidder, and return the funds paid by all > but the winning bidder to the losers after the auction ends. This would > ensure a higher completion rate, but would create a lot of work. You're assuming an auction site, which I'm not. This is strictly a buy/sell/trade bulletin board. A free place for buyers to meet sellers. > Hobbyists, you see, are the guys who want everything, want to pay/trade > nothing, and only get rid of an item when it's certain they won't have any > further use for it. I was once in that category. I did what I did for the Sure, but we're not going to try to intervene in the process or collect any money from it. Its just there, use it, but don't abuse it; ignore it, but don't whore it. [Oh my god, I think I momentarily channelled Jessie Jackson!] > That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from > the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge > the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. > > Does this seem different to you? Yep, no money involved save for what the buyer wants to give the seller. All transactions baed upon personal reputation. No system that encourages over-bidding and unreasonable price escalations. Just pure open-market-based buying, selling and trading. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 16:06:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel In-Reply-To: <01be7260$cf591020$809ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > You know, not to sound mean, but that sounds like a discouragement to me. I > am aware of the fact that it will not be the _fastest_ system around, but it > would be interesting to do. Also, considering that when you have 10 odd > computers, that may not be the fastest around, and can only be used one at a > time, why not have them work together? The last thing I thought I'd see on > the list was someone discouraging someone to try something. I think John missed the point, and didn't really intend for you to be discouraged. So to offset John's remarks, I ENCOURAGE you to join the VCF massively parallel C64 project (well, its grown beyond just C64's now but the concept is the same: hook vintage computers together to create a massively parallel vintage computer cluster). To join the discussion list, send a subscribe request to majordomo@nut.net. subscribe vcf-c64 Its been dead far a while because we're all waiting on that damn German Hans to hurry up and finish the design document :) But we should start rolling on it in a short while. You'll learn a lot from the project, and you can work in parallel on your own basement cluster using the knowledge you absorb from working with the VCF group. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Mar 19 16:57:23 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990319111329.51f7d4ce@ricochet.net> At 12:04 PM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote: >>So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite >>of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're >>looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to >>pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new Ph sure, and if I (john doe) had an exidy, I would look at your listing, then head over to eBay and post it with a $15 min. bid. Then I would send you an e-mail saying I had one on ebay. >service which protects the buyer and the seller, by ensuring the funds and >the merchandise as represented are there and by ensuring the parties >complete the transaction to which they're supposedly committed, would be >VERY valuable and would take a BIG bite out of Ebay's share. That's not an Sure, they're called Christies, Sotheby's, Butterfield and Butterfield... (Or did you want to pay an extra $10 to guarantee that $10 sale?) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Mar 19 16:57:50 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Last Chance for GRiDPad's Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990319145821.50ff67a0@ricochet.net> If you're interested in the GRiDPad 1910's I picked up, please let me know. After I get this first batch out, whatever's left is going on ePay to try and make back what I paid for 'em, perhaps even a little extra to cover the hours I've spent testing them. Cost is $15 for working ones, $5 for non-working (plus shipping). E-mail me off-list for more info. (I'll only send progress updates to those who have said they want one (or more) from now on. Thanks for being patient!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Mar 19 16:58:06 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Sun 4/110 In-Reply-To: <199903182306.SAA23248@crobin.home.org> from John Ruschmeyer at "Mar 18, 1999 06:06:41 pm" Message-ID: <199903192258.QAA13545@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > One of the things that I saw was a SUN 4/110. Can anyone tell me the > > general specs for it. CPU type and speed, what size hard drive they have > > (if any), amount of memory, etc. Any idea of what it's worth? Also is > > anyone interested in it? I'm going back there tomorrow and can get it but > > I have to know before tomorrow or else it's going to be scrap metal. > > It's an early Sparc-based system, probably around 20mhz, VME-bus. > IIRC, the 110 chasis has 3 VMS slots, but no on-board disk storage. > The system proably has a SCSI interface, though, (definately an Ethernet) > and could be hooked up to an external shoebox. > > <<>> > 4/110 Processor(s): MB86900 @ 14.28MHz, Weitek 1164/1165, Sun-4 MMU, 16 hardware contexts, 7 MIPS CPU: 501-1199/1237/1462/1463/1512/1513/1514/1515/ 1464/1465/1516/1517/1656/1657/1658/1659/ 1660/(many others) Chassis type: deskside Bus: VME, 3 slot Memory: 32M physical with parity, 1G/process virtual, 70ns cycle Architecture: sun4 Notes: First desktop-able SPARC. CPU doesn't support VME busmaster cards (insufficient room on CPU board for full VME bus interface), so DMA disk and tape boards won't work with it. Originally intended as single-board machine, although there are a few slave-only VME boards (such as the ALM-2 and second ethernet controller) which work with it. Onboard SCSI, two serial ports, Ethernet, keyboard/mouse. "P4" frame buffer could be monochrome or color. Used static column RAM rather than a conventional cache. Code-named "Cobra". -Lawrence LeMay From dogas at leading.net Fri Mar 19 16:51:25 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: some items Message-ID: <01be725b$04c592c0$cdc962cf@devlaptop> I missed the opening of a thrift sale that still had some possibly interesting leftovers. Anyone have any info on the following: 1. Televideo TS0806/20: one floppy, one hd, z80 (I think) 2. Televideo T806H20 same case as above containing just a hd 3. DecServer 200/MC 4. Digital TK50Z-GA (can this be used on a Micro pdp?) Would consider trades with anyone looking for any of this stuff specifically. TIA - Mike: dogas@leading.net From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 19 15:21:43 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel In-Reply-To: <01be7260$cf591020$809ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >You know, not to sound mean, but that sounds like a discouragement to me. I >am aware of the fact that it will not be the _fastest_ system around, but it >would be interesting to do. Also, considering that when you have 10 odd >computers, that may not be the fastest around, and can only be used one at a >time, why not have them work together? The last thing I thought I'd see on >the list was someone discouraging someone to try something. I think you should do it. I have a batch of Mac IIfx and I may try a parallel arrangement with them one of my friends told me about. As an experiment lots is to be learned from this. I don't however have any plans to "use" it. For a start I suggest looking at some of the encryption cracking efforts. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Mar 19 17:11:14 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990319111329.51f7d4ce@ricochet.net> from Uncle Roger at "Mar 19, 1999 04:57:23 pm" Message-ID: <199903192311.RAA13611@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > At 12:04 PM 3/18/99 -0700, you wrote: > >>So someone needs to create another web site that is the opposite > >>of what eBay provides. A site where you can advertise that you're > >>looking for an Exidy Sorcerer computer, and woould be willing to > >>pay about $15 plus $10 shipping. I suggest you call this new > > Ph sure, and if I (john doe) had an exidy, I would look at your listing, > then head over to eBay and post it with a $15 min. bid. Then I would send > you an e-mail saying I had one on ebay. > I see... So basically, you're sayin I would be informed about available computers that i'm interested in, AND i wouldnt have to hear Doug or Sellam whining constantly that the computer wont be sold for 3 cents plus postage... Count me in! -Lawrence LeMay From nfields at ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 19 17:04:55 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:10 2005 Subject: OT OT OT really OT [Re: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info?] References: <000201be7227$319df8c0$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <36F2D817.191F0C81@ix.netcom.com> For you 2 that seem to be running this system (I'm very interested in it after looking at it) do you see any major problems with it so far? (I'm always cautious with beta software). I am extremely tempted to download and set it up, but I was curious first what type of performance you have seen. Thanks! Noel "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > [ Zane sez: ] > > I've seen the light. I'm now running Win95 and WinNT 4.0 Server (Yes, > > legal copies, I bought them in a fit of madness about a year ago when I > > wanted to learn some about them) on my PII/333. However, since I don't > > want my system to crash I'm running them under Linux. I had Linux, Win95, > > and WinNT Server all running at the same time on the same system last > > night! > > I agree, this is just the coolest thing. > > For those who don't know what the heck we're talking about, see > http://www2.vmware.com/products/linuxscreen.html > > > BTW, how's everything up there in Redmond going with the port of MS Office > > to Linux that supposedly isn't happening? > > Actually, I live in the SF Bay Area (San Bruno), not Redmond. > > And I think we'll have to wait for the split-up of Microsoft (or maybe the > massive upcoming reorg that we have to read about in the papers) before > Office will compete against Windows... > > - Joe From dogas at leading.net Fri Mar 19 17:13:08 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: some items Message-ID: <01be725e$0d40dec0$cdc962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Mike > 1. Televideo TS0806/20: one floppy, one hd, z80 (I think) Opps, TS-806/20 actually. >- Mike: dogas@leading.net From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Mar 19 17:28:20 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Last Chance for GRiDPad's In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990319145821.50ff67a0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990319172820.0098e300@texas.net> Roger, I have a GRiDCase 1530... And I love it's magnesium case. is the GRiDPad's case also metal? What's the OS? I might want one. Thanks, Arfon At 04:57 PM 3/19/99 -0600, you wrote: >If you're interested in the GRiDPad 1910's I picked up, please let me know. > After I get this first batch out, whatever's left is going on ePay to try >and make back what I paid for 'em, perhaps even a little extra to cover the >hours I've spent testing them. Cost is $15 for working ones, $5 for >non-working (plus shipping). E-mail me off-list for more info. > >(I'll only send progress updates to those who have said they want one (or >more) from now on. Thanks for being patient!) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Mar 19 17:38:07 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: OOPS!! Re: Last Chance for GRiDPad's In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990319172820.0098e300@texas.net> References: <3.0.16.19990319145821.50ff67a0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990319173807.00987100@texas.net> Sorry guys, that wasn't supposed to be sent to the list. ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Mar 19 17:44:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Intel Classics Message-ID: <4.1.19990319154152.00b63750@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Does anyone on this list collect Intel stuff? I've recently picked up two Intel 5 slot rack mount multibus I chassis (this is the 2U size box), an an iSBC 86/35 and an iSBC 86/05. The former counts as a singleboard computer as it has ROM and RAM on board, the latter expects RAM to sit on the P2 bus if I recall correctly. I would prefer to trade for Q-bus stuff but reasonable offers are welcome as well. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 19 18:15:04 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: sellers market References: Message-ID: <36F2E888.C4E6E587@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from > > the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge > > the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. > > > > Does this seem different to you? > > Yep, no money involved save for what the buyer wants to give the seller. > All transactions baed upon personal reputation. No system that > encourages over-bidding and unreasonable price escalations. Just pure > open-market-based buying, selling and trading. I was born yesterday, but it wasn't that late in the day. Ebay *is* an open market (except in the brain damaged recent decision to unilaterally ban the sale of firearms.) There is absolutely nothing to force a buyer to bid on anything there, and the last I heard, browsing was still free. Anyone sticking their head in the sand and thinking that vintage computers will not appreciate in value is just fooling themselves. And has been said many times, most of us do not collect for the investment value, but rather because there is a sense of preserving history. Have I left anyone out of being insulted :)? Personal reputation is generally the only reason I (and a number of other people I know) get a lot of the things I do given to me as well as leads on other "good" stuff. The other side of that coin is that I am not free (ethically) to sell off this stuff for personal profit. BUT, it takes time to develop a reputation, and what you are suggesting will only work with people that have known each other for quite a length of time. That, almost by definition, leaves out a public list. I don't see any public alternatives to ebay and the like. A number of people have written comments (not too many on this list) that they have found things on ebay they have been trying to locate for years. It seems rather ostrich like not to acknowledge the value of ebay, etc. At least everything there is open for the scrutiny of all involved. From bluoval at mindspring.com Fri Mar 19 18:16:11 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel References: Message-ID: <36F2E8CB.804706F7@mindspring.com> The only way you'd see any difference in speed is if the programs are programmed to be used in a parallel system, or 'optomized' for it. just what i read. Robert Mike Ford wrote: > >You know, not to sound mean, but that sounds like a discouragement to me. I > >am aware of the fact that it will not be the _fastest_ system around, but it > >would be interesting to do. Also, considering that when you have 10 odd > >computers, that may not be the fastest around, and can only be used one at a > >time, why not have them work together? The last thing I thought I'd see on > >the list was someone discouraging someone to try something. > > I think you should do it. I have a batch of Mac IIfx and I may try a > parallel arrangement with them one of my friends told me about. > > As an experiment lots is to be learned from this. I don't however have any > plans to "use" it. > > For a start I suggest looking at some of the encryption cracking efforts. From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Fri Mar 19 18:29:36 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. Message-ID: <199903200029.QAA24814@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Concerning p-machines: >At 08:19 AM 3/19/99 -0500, John Ott wrote: >> >>I am interested in learning more about p-machines. Does anyone have >>some references, faqs or web sites that would help? > >I have an aging UCSD Pascal history page at my online computer museum: >. I'd love to get a Microengine someday. > >- John I vaguely remember that the Western Digital p-machine microengine was based on the chipset that Western Digital made for DEC to build the LSI-11/2, just different microcode. Does anyone actually have some documentation for this board or board set? I have also been scanning all of the WEB sights that have information about UCSD PASCAL and obsolete and disappeared computers and I find no reference to Sage Computer Technology of Reno, NV. They made the Sage II/IV systems that came with UCSD PASCAL installed. They were M-68000 based systems and probably ran other operating systems too. Anybody remember them? -- Dean =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dean Billing Phone: 530-752-5956 UC Davis FAX: 530-752-6363 IT-CR EMAIL: drbilling@ucdavis.edu One Shields Way Davis, CA 95616 From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Mar 19 18:20:48 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Another Find Message-ID: <000601be7267$813b55e0$ee711fd1@5x86jk> Today I picked a copy of the Secret Guide to Computers (20th edition), I remember reading these years ago when the guy offered free help over the phone on any computer topic. Anyone else remember these books. John From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 19 18:39:58 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question In-Reply-To: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> (mbg@world.std.com) References: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990320003958.29002.qmail@brouhaha.com> Megan wrote: > If I remember correctly, RT-11 originally booted in as little as > 8kb of memory. Later we had to increase the minimum to 12 or 16 kb. And the SPD for RT-11 V5.7 claims that it requires 32 Kbytes for SB, 48 Kbytes for FB, and 76 Kbytes for memory mapped monitors (XM, XB, ZM, ZB). This is annoying since my GT40 only has 16 Kbytes. Which brings up several questions: 1) What is the most recent release for which SB (or SJ?) will run reasonably comfortably in 16 Kbytes? 2) Can I buy that version from Mentec? 3) What is the newest release that is on-topic for this list? I.E, what was current on March 19, 1989? Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 19 18:43:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: some items In-Reply-To: <01be725b$04c592c0$cdc962cf@devlaptop> (dogas@leading.net) References: <01be725b$04c592c0$cdc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <19990320004316.29028.qmail@brouhaha.com> > 4. Digital TK50Z-GA (can this be used on a Micro pdp?) Maybe, if the Micro PDP has a SCSI controller. Then again, it's hard to say. The TK50Z and TZ30 both have fairly wacked-out SCSI implementations (and not even in exactly the same ways), and neither is known to work reliably on much of anything other than a VAXstation. From bluoval at mindspring.com Fri Mar 19 18:45:04 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FS: TI calculator] Message-ID: <36F2EF90.F54550D6@mindspring.com> thought someone might be interested. topgun72SPAMSUX@hotmail.com wrote: > For sale: Texas Instruments TI-60 calculator and user guide > > Will sell for $15.00. I can email you a picture of the calculator. > > TI-60. An advanced scientific calculator with programmability -- up to > 88 program steps and 12 constant user memories. One- and two-variable > statistics, linear regression, trend-line analysis and other > statistical functions. Number-base conversions and mixed-base > calculations. Ten-digit LCD. > > Postage not included in price. Thanks for your interest! If > interested, please respond to: topgun72SPAMSUX@hotmail.com. Be sure > to remove SPAMSUX from the email address. > ----------------------------------------------------- > please remove SPAMSUX from the address to send email!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------- > LEGAL NOTICE: Anyone who sends me unsolicited/commercial email will be charged a $500.00 proofreading fee. Consider this offical notification. > > "By US Code Title 47, Sc. 227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. > By Sec. 227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. > By Sec. 227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500.00, whichever is greater, for each violation." From joe at barrera.org Fri Mar 19 18:45:18 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: sellers market References: <36F2E888.C4E6E587@rain.org> Message-ID: <027101be726a$f0497b80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> > I was born yesterday, but it wasn't that late in the day. Ebay *is* an open > market (except in the brain damaged recent decision to unilaterally ban the > sale of firearms.) ... and power cords. Don't forget power cords. "The thing's hollow -- it goes on forever -- and, oh my God, it's full of stars!" From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 19:15:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <36F2E888.C4E6E587@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from > > > the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge > > > the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. > > > > > > Does this seem different to you? > > > > Yep, no money involved save for what the buyer wants to give the seller. > > All transactions baed upon personal reputation. No system that > > encourages over-bidding and unreasonable price escalations. Just pure > > open-market-based buying, selling and trading. > > I was born yesterday, but it wasn't that late in the day. Ebay *is* an open > market (except in the brain damaged recent decision to unilaterally ban the Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way ebay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price speculation on the part of buyers? The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and should not define what the rest of us should have to pay! Without ebay, do you honestly think that people would be regularly paying $3,000 for Altairs and IMSAIs? Of course not! Take ebay, remove their silly auction mechanisms, replace them with a basic best-offer paradigm and you'll never see an Altair or IMSAI go over $1000 unless the buyer is really stupid. You'll never see an old single-board computer sell for over $150. It just wouldn't happen. > sale of firearms.) There is absolutely nothing to force a buyer to bid on > anything there, and the last I heard, browsing was still free. Anyone > sticking their head in the sand and thinking that vintage computers will not > appreciate in value is just fooling themselves. And has been said many Appreciate sure, but based on rational, measurable attributes. But to be driven up in price due to irrational speculation and a biased auction system cannot be the basis for evaluating the price of vintage computers, let alone ANY merchandise new or old. > times, most of us do not collect for the investment value, but rather > because there is a sense of preserving history. Yeah, great. But I'm not going to go broke in the process. And although Doug tends to rant, he's not just some crazy old uncle that you hide in the back room when company comes over. He realizes what is happening. There is hoarding going on by individuals hoping to cash in years from now when they expect this ridiculous craze to hit a fevered pitch. At the rate we're going, if this keeps up then nobody will be able to afford anything older than 1990, and that will be a god damn shame. > Personal reputation is generally the only reason I (and a number of other > people I know) get a lot of the things I do given to me as well as leads on > other "good" stuff. The other side of that coin is that I am not free So what at all does this have to do with how stuff is priced on ebay? You always bring this up but its a non-sequitur. > (ethically) to sell off this stuff for personal profit. BUT, it takes time > to develop a reputation, and what you are suggesting will only work with > people that have known each other for quite a length of time. That, almost > by definition, leaves out a public list. Ok, I see where you're going, but this rant is about ebay. And besides, you're wrong. Do you think personal relationships can only be developed in the real world? I know many people on this list, and I've dealt with quite a few of them, either buying, selling or trading. Most I've never met in person at all. Yet over time I've developed a reputation through my deeds and actions that have given people the comfort that they know they can trust me. I'm sure the same can be said for you. And there's nothing to preclude a feedback system similar to the one ebay provides. People can carry around a "profile" with feedback that other people have left for them. Its would be no less flawed than ebay's current system, which has many ways to get around and many ways to allow deception. And without the mechanism that makes it possible to bid a computer up to $3,000, you simply won't see those prices. Those who want $3,000 for their old crap can go to ebay and hope for the best (and more power to them). But when people realize that there is an alternative, they may forsake ebay altogether in preference to a more sane environment like a buy/sell/trade board. You WILL build a loyal following eventually and you WILL get patrons. Do you think ebay just magically appeared one day with a $20 billion stock market capitalization? Hell no. It took ebay almost five years to build up to where they are today. It would take a buy/sell/trade message board well under a year to develop a reputation for being the one-stop shop for vintage computer buying, selling and trading. I'm not a fool, I know the lure of money will always be the greatest driving force behind the sale of anything. But if you give people who really do care the right environment, they will take advantage of it. > I don't see any public alternatives to ebay and the like. A number of people That's a silly statement. Of course you see no alternatives because no one yet has dared tried to build one. Instead of being discouraging, its almost as if you'd rather see the perpetuation of ebay and the price escalation it has caused. But oh yeah, I forgot, you don't think ebay is responsible for that. No, people WANT to pay $3,000 for an old piece of crap computer. Ok. > have written comments (not too many on this list) that they have found > things on ebay they have been trying to locate for years. It seems rather > ostrich like not to acknowledge the value of ebay, etc. At least everything > there is open for the scrutiny of all involved. Ebay has done nothing but to cut out the footwork for the lazy people, and charge them a premium for it. I'm throwing my support behind whatever effort takes place to create a free buy/sell/trade bulletin board. Its something I've been wanting to do for a while, and I think the time is right. I see a need and a purpose for it, and it will be a great year round anchor for the VCF activities, which is why I'd be willing to put whatever time and money it takes to bring it to fruition and have it sponsored by the VCF. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 19 19:17:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Sellam's market In-Reply-To: <027101be726a$f0497b80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: OK, to kick it off: 1) I'd like to find some Casio CFX-40 or CFX-400 calculator watches. Dead or alive. That's the "scientific calculator" model, which even has hex and octal calculations. If I'm not mistaken, the 40 is the plastic case model, and the 400 is the chromed steel. 2) boot disk for a Diskon (sp?) It's a CP/M (I think) system built into a Televideo terminal housing. It's primary claim to fame is spport for a LOT of alternate disk formats (my specialty) 3) sample disks from any MFM floppy formats that I don't already support (see: http://www.xenosoft.com/formats.html ) 4) a 3.9" diskette 5) a 2.5" diskette 6) scanner and printer software for the Ricoh MC-50. I have the hardware, and the documentation for the scqanner software, but not the disks. 7) OT: oversized and/or auxiliary gas tank for '88 Toyota Van (the fool-injection plumbing adds some complications) > I was born yesterday, but it wasn't that late in the day. Ebay *is* an > open > market (except in the brain damaged recent decision to unilaterally ban > the > sale of firearms.) even *RARE* Altair ones?? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 19:18:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. In-Reply-To: <199903200029.QAA24814@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Dean Billing wrote: > I have also been scanning all of the WEB sights that have information about > UCSD PASCAL and obsolete and disappeared computers and I find no reference > to Sage Computer Technology of Reno, NV. They made the Sage II/IV systems > that came with UCSD PASCAL installed. They were M-68000 based systems and > probably ran other operating systems too. Anybody remember them? Yes, I foolishly passed up an opportunity to acquire one about a year back. The problem was the seller being rather bullheaded and stupid: one of those guys who'd rather scrap the stuff than see it go for less than what they want. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 19:35:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Sellam's market In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > 2) boot disk for a Diskon (sp?) It's a CP/M (I think) system built into > a Televideo terminal housing. It's primary claim to fame is spport for a > LOT of alternate disk formats (my specialty) Is this the same as the Televideo 802? It sounds exactyly as you describe. I just picked up the computer but no disks came with it unfortunately. > 4) a 3.9" diskette Woah. Shed some light on this. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dogas at leading.net Fri Mar 19 19:54:53 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: some items Message-ID: <01be7274$a5affea0$b7c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:44 PM Subject: Re: some items >> 4. Digital TK50Z-GA (can this be used on a Micro pdp?) > >Maybe, if the Micro PDP has a SCSI controller. > >Then again, it's hard to say. The TK50Z and TZ30 both have fairly >wacked-out SCSI implementations (and not even in exactly the same ways), >and neither is known to work reliably on much of anything other than >a VAXstation. Bummer... Anyone need it(4.)? And anyone know anything about the televideo 806es? - Mike: dogas@leading.net From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 19 20:00:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <001601be7275$7ed54a00$7f483cd1@fuj03> While it's true that ensuring that no money changes hands except between buyer and seller will remove the incentive on the part of the site owner to support needless price escalation, that mechanism won't be effective to encourage sane pricing unless there's a powerful mechanism, probably one stronger or at least swifter than the legal system, to ensure that the bidder and seller are held to their obligations. My problem with eBay is not that the prices are unreasonable, though I've felt they are. My problem is with the 70% advertised successful completion rate of transactions resulting from completed auctions. This means that only seven of ten auctions in which a bidder offers an amount equal to or in excess of the buyer's demand, result in a transfer of funds for the merchandise at auction. This doesn't include those auctions which result in the buyer receiving a brick, and may (?) not include cases wherein the seller receives a bogus check. It only considers those cases in which one of the parties backs out. Unfortunately, I don't see a reasonable method which can be used to fix this problem. The free market says that an item is worth what someone will pay for it. How can one depend on the likes of eBay to set the price when there is no mechanism to bind the parties to their commitment to the agreed-upon transaction? How can we improve on it? What could we do if we had a site dedicated to the exchange of computer antiquities and oddities, to prevent falsely imputed prices resulting from transactions, faked in order to make record of prices at which commodities can not reasonably be traded? Before we become too critical of eBay, we should, I think, have a positive construct which addresses their shortcomings. EBay is, I believe, a good idea, implemented as well as can be, though perhaps not, which, like our form of government, is by no means perfect, yet is superior to whatever else is available. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 5:20 PM Subject: Re: sellers market > > >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> > That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from >> > the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge >> > the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. >> > >> > Does this seem different to you? >> >> Yep, no money involved save for what the buyer wants to give the seller. >> All transactions based upon personal reputation. No system that >> encourages over-bidding and unreasonable price escalations. Just pure >> open-market-based buying, selling and trading. > >I was born yesterday, but it wasn't that late in the day. Ebay *is* an open >market (except in the brain damaged recent decision to unilaterally ban the >sale of firearms.) There is absolutely nothing to force a buyer to bid on >anything there, and the last I heard, browsing was still free. Anyone >sticking their head in the sand and thinking that vintage computers will not >appreciate in value is just fooling themselves. And has been said many >times, most of us do not collect for the investment value, but rather >because there is a sense of preserving history. > >Have I left anyone out of being insulted :)? > >Personal reputation is generally the only reason I (and a number of other >people I know) get a lot of the things I do given to me as well as leads on >other "good" stuff. The other side of that coin is that I am not free >(ethically) to sell off this stuff for personal profit. BUT, it takes time >to develop a reputation, and what you are suggesting will only work with >people that have known each other for quite a length of time. That, almost >by definition, leaves out a public list. > >I don't see any public alternatives to ebay and the like. A number of people >have written comments (not too many on this list) that they have found >things on ebay they have been trying to locate for years. It seems rather >ostrich like not to acknowledge the value of ebay, etc. At least everything >there is open for the scrutiny of all involved. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 19 18:35:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <000e01be71a4$9af86d60$48483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 18, 99 06:05:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/f039fea6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 19 18:36:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: <199903190130.RAA21524@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at Mar 18, 99 05:30:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/8bd08030/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 19 19:01:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine In-Reply-To: <199903191319.IAA04286@mastif.ee.nd.edu> from "John Ott" at Mar 19, 99 08:19:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/d2b3c829/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Fri Mar 19 20:12:21 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7265$db106260$809ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >Check out my website: > >http://members.tripod.com/general_1 > In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the Empire State Building. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Fri Mar 19 20:13:41 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: OT OT OT really OT [Re: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info?] In-Reply-To: <36F2D817.191F0C81@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Noel Fields wrote: >For you 2 that seem to be running this system (I'm very interested in it after >looking at it) do you see any major problems with it so far? (I'm always >cautious with beta software). I am extremely tempted to download and set it up, >but I was curious first what type of performance you have seen. > I find it interesting that in one of the screenshots, total memory is listed as 198 Megabytes of RAM. Do you have 198 megabytes of RAM :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From gram at cnct.com Fri Mar 19 20:32:16 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >You know, not to sound mean, but that sounds like a discouragement to me. I > >am aware of the fact that it will not be the _fastest_ system around, but it > >would be interesting to do. Also, considering that when you have 10 odd > >computers, that may not be the fastest around, and can only be used one at a > >time, why not have them work together? The last thing I thought I'd see on > >the list was someone discouraging someone to try something. > > I think you should do it. I have a batch of Mac IIfx and I may try a > parallel arrangement with them one of my friends told me about. > > As an experiment lots is to be learned from this. I don't however have any > plans to "use" it. > > For a start I suggest looking at some of the encryption cracking efforts. Well, I haven't heard of Beowulf being implemented under MacLinux. Be the first on your block. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 19 20:12:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. In-Reply-To: <199903200029.QAA24814@pop2.ucdavis.edu> from "Dean Billing" at Mar 19, 99 04:29:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/b9cf50f8/attachment.ksh From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Fri Mar 19 20:35:29 1999 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Pointers please - Obsolete/discontinued chips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a vendor for obsolete or discontinued chips? My specific current need is for an AMD chip: AM7992BCD (or equivalent). TIA. Bill From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 20:43:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <001601be7275$7ed54a00$7f483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > While it's true that ensuring that no money changes hands except between > buyer and seller will remove the incentive on the part of the site owner to > support needless price escalation, that mechanism won't be effective to > encourage sane pricing unless there's a powerful mechanism, probably one > stronger or at least swifter than the legal system, to ensure that the > bidder and seller are held to their obligations. The only obligations are those imposed by the buyer and seller upon each other. In other words the system is no better and no worse than what ebay has. Its an imperfect system. You basically rely on the trust and reputation of the parties you are dealing with. Seller's will always have the upper hand in the matter as long as they require payment up front. Of course there is nothing to preclude any parties from using an online escrow service. > My problem with eBay is not that the prices are unreasonable, though I've > felt they are. My problem is with the 70% advertised successful completion > rate of transactions resulting from completed auctions. This means that > only seven of ten auctions in which a bidder offers an amount equal to or in > excess of the buyer's demand, result in a transfer of funds for the > merchandise at auction. This doesn't include those auctions which result in > the buyer receiving a brick, and may (?) not include cases wherein the > seller receives a bogus check. It only considers those cases in which one > of the parties backs out. And in this case since there are no listing fees, the only thing lost is time on the part of the seller. Fraud is always an issue, and one that won't be resolved until we are able to reach out and touch someone for real (so that we can kick their ass if they cheat us :) But I imagine as the importance of internet commerce expands, new laws will be drafted to make it easier for people across state lines to pursue another party for deceptive or fraudulent sales, although mail order has been going on for a long time and we are still not there. At any rate, this is an issue that won't soon be solved by casual banter, although I don't doubt a clever solution could arise to mitigate fraudulent sales if the right people put their minds to it. Again, it goes back to reputation. > Unfortunately, I don't see a reasonable method which can be used to fix this > problem. The free market says that an item is worth what someone will pay > for it. How can one depend on the likes of eBay to set the price when there > is no mechanism to bind the parties to their commitment to the agreed-upon > transaction? How can we improve on it? What could we do if we had a site Exactly. A very good point. Who's to say that $12,1000 Altair really sold for that much? If it weren't for the inquisitive people on this list who followed through and determined the sale wasn't consumated, people might have tried to base their minimum asking prices at that amount. One more reason to NOT rely on ebay prices as a marker for "fair market values". > dedicated to the exchange of computer antiquities and oddities, to prevent > falsely imputed prices resulting from transactions, faked in order to make > record of prices at which commodities can not reasonably be traded? A good question. It has always been possible to set up a fake auction on ebay where a fraudlently inflated price can be established on an item, and nobody has come forth to ask that question until now. I guess the short answer is common sense. Like I said in a previous message, just because an idiot wants to pay $3,000 for an Altair, doesn't mean everyone else should too. Any seller wishing to base his minimum asking price on a previous sale that was unreasonable will probably wait a long time before either a) the price catches up to his exptectaions or b) he finally realizes he must lower his expectations. > Before we become too critical of eBay, we should, I think, have a positive > construct which addresses their shortcomings. EBay is, I believe, a good > idea, implemented as well as can be, though perhaps not, which, like our > form of government, is by no means perfect, yet is superior to whatever else > is available. Its far from being superior to whatever else is available. It just happens to have accumulated the largest user base through effective advertising. It could also be argued (quite easily I might add) that it has attracted the most sellers due to its mechanisms which give the advantage to the seller and results in favorable returns for the seller. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 20:49:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > >Check out my website: > > > >http://members.tripod.com/general_1 > > > In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose > hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the > Empire State Building. I think what Jason may not have initially realized (and maybe still not yet even) is that his Windows system configuration files got screwed and therefore his serial ports are no longer accessible under windows. As far as I know, its impossible to physically damage a serial port through software unless you make it possible by building a device whose soul purpose is to electrically short pins on the serial port on command. And of course, no sane persson would go through the trouble. So all he really needs to do is probably go into the Cntrol Panel, select System, then go to ports, remove the old serial ports (if they are still there) then add them again. Or maybe let windows find them for you with the Add New Hardware icon. BTW, I checked out the web site but all the links are bad. They all end up at a Tripod "page not found" page. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 20:53:32 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Another Find Message-ID: <199903200253.AA14535@world.std.com> >Today I picked a copy of the Secret Guide to Computers (20th edition), I >remember reading these years ago when the guy offered free help over the >phone on any computer topic. Anyone else remember these books. John I've got a set of these I got some 15 or more years ago... I sure do remember them. I used them to help my son learn a little about computers and programming in BASIC (if you're lucky, flames regarding this will be ignored) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Fri Mar 19 21:06:46 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose > hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the > Empire State Building. Please don't. (The suicide nets will catch it anyway). If you want to toss a computer around the town where I (reluctantly -- I hate being stuck on the east coast) work, I recommend using one of the bridges across the East or Hudson rivers. Or leave it in the back seat of a car with an open window (a Club on the steering wheel and no radio in the dash), the thieves deserve what they get. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 20:59:27 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question References: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903200259.AA17625@world.std.com> >And the SPD for RT-11 V5.7 claims that it requires 32 Kbytes for SB, >48 Kbytes for FB, and 76 Kbytes for memory mapped monitors (XM, XB, ZM, >ZB). Yep... >This is annoying since my GT40 only has 16 Kbytes. Which brings up >several questions: ... you have a GT40? I missed out on one years ago... I had it in my office, but couldn't get the signatures to take it home, and it ended up being lost in an office move... >1) What is the most recent release for which SB (or SJ?) will run > reasonably comfortably in 16 Kbytes? I would suggest that you have to go back to V4.0 of RT to even still have the VT11 support in the monitor... >2) Can I buy that version from Mentec? I don't know how many releases they have in their library... but I also don't know if they would consider selling it... >3) What is the newest release that is on-topic for this list? I.E, what > was current on March 19, 1989? I believe V5.5 was the release which was current at that time. We were still working on V5.6, which wasn't released until 1992. It might have been V5.4, though... Heck, after 15 years of releases, they all sort of merge in my memory... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 21:07:19 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: some items Message-ID: <199903200307.AA22124@world.std.com> >Then again, it's hard to say. The TK50Z and TZ30 both have fairly >wacked-out SCSI implementations (and not even in exactly the same ways), >and neither is known to work reliably on much of anything other than >a VAXstation. I've got a TZ30 working on a pdp-11/93 at home, and working just fine... In fact, I used it to load 2.11BSD, and RT-11 V5.7... The TZ30 SCSI implementation seems to be more stable than the TK50Z one... It may depend on the board you use... I used the RQZX1, which was qualified with the TZ30... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 21:19:02 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: My pdp-8 move this weekend... Message-ID: <199903200319.AA29109@world.std.com> Thanks to all those who made suggestions on how to do the move. It turns out that the problem with lift gates has more to do with the fact that both Ryder and Budget (and I'm sure other places which rent vehicles) have separated their 'consumer' and 'commercial' truck rental groups. I found that although it is possible to find a truck with a lift-gate in the consumer division, they aren't generally where you want them to be (I'm in framingham, MA, and the closest one they could find was south boston... and at $.39 a mile for Ryder, that would add up quickly). The commercial division is where you would find the lift-gates, but they would be on larger trucks (>24ft) with air brakes, etc... things which would require CDL... So, that is out. The only thing I could find was a 15' long 7' high truck with a ramp... I got dollies, so I'll be able to roll things into the truck. I'm getting moving pads to protect everything. I'm going to take tools to dismantle things, rope to tie things down, and a digital camera to take pictures of cabling and/or locations of things so I can restore them at my place. Now, the only problem I've got is that the person who had offered to help in the move is sick and can't help, so unless I can find someone to help, I'll be wrangling this stuff alone at my place. If there is anyone in the framingham, ma (sudbury, natick, marlboro, maynard, etc) area who might be able to help, it would be much appreciated. Meal/snacks are on me... Please write to me off-line any time between now and about 9am tomorrow... Thanks in advance to anyone who can help... Think of the chance to handle some *real iron* (tm) :) And look for pictures of the move in a few days on my web page... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 21:21:16 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: My pdp-8 move this weekend... Message-ID: <199903200321.AA00531@world.std.com> Oh yeah, forgot to mention... the person from whom I am getting the -8s will help me load, I only need help in unloading... in the afternoon... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Mar 20 00:07:40 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows. A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard controller chip got scrambled. If you noticed the red text on the top of the page, I have removed all of the images. I just didn't feel like deleting all the links. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 6:51 PM Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) >On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> >Check out my website: >> > >> >http://members.tripod.com/general_1 >> > >> In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose >> hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the >> Empire State Building. > >I think what Jason may not have initially realized (and maybe still not >yet even) is that his Windows system configuration files got screwed and >therefore his serial ports are no longer accessible under windows. As far >as I know, its impossible to physically damage a serial port through >software unless you make it possible by building a device whose soul >purpose is to electrically short pins on the serial port on command. And >of course, no sane persson would go through the trouble. > >So all he really needs to do is probably go into the Cntrol Panel, select >System, then go to ports, remove the old serial ports (if they are still >there) then add them again. Or maybe let windows find them for you with >the Add New Hardware icon. > >BTW, I checked out the web site but all the links are bad. They all end >up at a Tripod "page not found" page. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Mar 19 21:25:27 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Calling Doug Yowza - right e-mail? Message-ID: <013901be7282$f1745300$af3ffea9@office1> Sorry for the intrusion: I can't seem to get Doug's right e-mail address...Doug, e-mail me. Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 19 23:43:28 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Sellam's market In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990319234328.20ff4a7c@intellistar.net> At 05:35 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sam wrote: >On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >> 2) boot disk for a Diskon (sp?) It's a CP/M (I think) system built into >> a Televideo terminal housing. It's primary claim to fame is spport for a >> LOT of alternate disk formats (my specialty) > >Is this the same as the Televideo 802? It sounds exactyly as you >describe. I just picked up the computer but no disks came with it >unfortunately. I don't think so. I have a service manual for the 802 and it lists the parts for both the 802 and 806 and none of the major parts are the same. I'm still like to find a 802. Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Mar 19 21:40:12 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Pictures of a Sun 1/100U Message-ID: <199903200340.VAA13806@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I tossed together a few pictures of a Sun 1/100U onto a web page. I havent gotten around to adding some words of description, but I figured most people here have never seen this computer... so i'll just give the URL and see if anyones interested: http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/sun1.html -Lawrence LeMay From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 19 22:01:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Calling Doug Yowza - right e-mail? In-Reply-To: <013901be7282$f1745300$af3ffea9@office1> Message-ID: >Sorry for the intrusion: > > I can't seem to get Doug's right e-mail address...Doug, e-mail me. >Thanks! I don't think Doug is on the list anymore. I think he was one of the people that jumped after the last flamewar. However, I'm in need of his current e-mail address also. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Mar 19 19:46:02 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Pointers please - Obsolete/discontinued chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990319194602.2277ac64@earthlink.net> At 07:35 PM 3/19/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Can anyone recommend a vendor for obsolete or discontinued chips? My >specific current need is for an AMD chip: AM7992BCD (or equivalent). > www.alltronics.com in San Jose has a AM7992ADC for $US 2.50. Don't know what the suffix means: package, speed, etc. There is an expensive place that may even make some "obsolete" chips, I think their name is Rochester Electronics. -Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 19 22:11:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by >MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows. > >A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or >just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the >sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard >controller chip got scrambled. Have you tried upgrading your systems BIOS? Somehow I think that's about the only thing a virus could do to mess up your system. BTW, this is a good reason NOT to run Windows. I'd recommend either getting a system that runs OpenVMS or at least installing UNIX on the system you have. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Mar 19 22:21:44 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question References: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> <199903200259.AA17625@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36F32258.F78D7D41@idirect.com> >Megan wrote: > >This is annoying since my GT40 only has 16 Kbytes. Which brings up > >several questions: > ... you have a GT40? I missed out on one years ago... I had > it in my office, but couldn't get the signatures to take it home, and > it ended up being lost in an office move... Jerome Fine replies: What was a GT40? I was asked recently to comment on a system which originally used a VT05 and then a VT52. I actually kept a working VT52. What was a VT05? Or at least what were the differences between a VT05 and a VT52? Incidentally, get a VT103. The standard memory size is 256 KBytes and if you re-wire the backplane, you can have all 4 MBytes. > >1) What is the most recent release for which SB (or SJ?) will run > > reasonably comfortably in 16 Kbytes? > I would suggest that you have to go back to V4.0 of RT to even still > have the VT11 support in the monitor... As far as I know, the RT11SJ in V5.4G required about 4800 bytes plus about 4100 bytes for the USR and something (about 500) for the device driver. That would leave only about 6 KBytes for the user job, probably not enough. Maybe the utilities are designed to work without the USR being there all the time and RT11SJ might work. Also, as far as I know, the VT11 support was still present in V5.4G of RT-11. > >2) Can I buy that version from Mentec? > I don't know how many releases they have in their library... but I > also don't know if they would consider selling it... Mentec has access to V5.3 of RT-11. Actually, everyone who wants to run V5.3 of RT-11 under a hobby license with the Supnik emulator can download V5.3 from gatekeeper. Megan Gentry made V5.3 available (or was very instrumental in doing so - thanks Megan) some time ago. Do you want the URL? > >3) What is the newest release that is on-topic for this list? I.E, what > > was current on March 19, 1989? > I believe V5.5 was the release which was current at that time. We were > still working on V5.6, which wasn't released until 1992. It might have > been V5.4, though... Heck, after 15 years of releases, they all sort > of merge in my memory... From gram at cnct.com Fri Mar 19 22:45:23 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: UNIX/Linux info? References: Message-ID: <36F327E3.55DBEA5F@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Sorry all, couldn't resist, and it is really cool running Linux/Win95/WinNT > at the same time on the same machine. For more info see, > http://www.vmware.com I need to test a couple more things, but I think I'll > be buying a copy, despite the price tag. It do look like an interesting product, and I too am probably going to license a copy once stability has been demonstrated. (There have been no counter-demonstrations reported so far in the channels I follow -- so I'll probably get the first non-beta edition). But not to run Windoze (the only MS products I'm running regularly are Excel [under Wine -- I've got to move my videotape catalog to another spreadsheet] and the TRS-80 ROM image I use with xtrs). I want to have Free-BSD and SCO on my machine subordinate to Linux. (Actually, I do have other MS stuff going -- the ROMs in my Mod 100s and my Color Computers, the BASICs in my TRS-80 Model II and my 4p. Stuff where Bill G. was still doing some of the coding before he decided to concentrate on bloating his fortune and the programs his employees wrote.) -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 19 22:41:15 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question References: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> <199903200259.AA17625@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903200441.AA16445@world.std.com> Jerome Fine replies: >What was a GT40? It was an 11/05 system with an integral VT11 display processor and a second serial line all mounted in one of the 5.25" high chassis. It had a typical pdp-11/05 front panel, but the color of the silk screening was green and some other color... The chassis had side rails that a VR14 vector graphics display could slide into above the system chassis. The unit has a keyboard and a light pen. The ROM has code to provide a very dumb terminal... it was generally attached to a decsystem-10 which could down-line load code into it for execution. >I was asked recently to comment on a system >which originally used a VT05 and then a VT52. I actually kept a >working VT52. What was a VT05? Or at least what were the >differences between a VT05 and a VT52? The VT05 is the earliest of the 'glass tty' terminals that I remember... I first saw one at a DECUS in Boston around 1973 or so. It was long and angular. I've never seen a programming manual for one, so I don't know if it even supported escape sequences... >Incidentally, get a VT103. The standard memory size is 256 KBytes >and if you re-wire the backplane, you can have all 4 MBytes. >As far as I know, the RT11SJ in V5.4G required about 4800 bytes >plus about 4100 bytes for the USR and something (about 500) >for the device driver. That would leave only about 6 KBytes for >the user job, probably not enough. Maybe the utilities are designed >to work without the USR being there all the time and RT11SJ might >work. That's right... systems typically ran with USR set SWAP. Back then we jokingly had a standard response to any problems which came in... "SET USR NOSWAP"... >Also, as far as I know, the VT11 support was still present in V5.4G >of RT-11. VT11 support is still in the VTHDLR library file, but I think that the GT ON/GT OFF commands were removed much earlier than that... I don't know if EDIT lost its VT11 support... same thing for TECO. >Mentec has access to V5.3 of RT-11. Actually, everyone who wants >to run V5.3 of RT-11 under a hobby license with the Supnik emulator >can download V5.3 from gatekeeper. Megan Gentry made V5.3 >available (or was very instrumental in doing so - thanks Megan) >some time ago. Do you want the URL? I have other releases prior to V5.3... I've been thinking of trying to get them packaged up to be made available -- in my 'copious free time' (tm) >P.S. Megan - have a good PDP-8 pickup and don't strain >yourself. That is real heavy iron. I know... two H960s and one 4' rack... with 4 pdp-8s and disks, tapes, etc... and an 11/34 with LPS, VT11 and VR14... Lots of *Iron*... I certainly won't be anemic for some time... :-) but it still looks like I'll be going it alone (unless I hear from my son)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 22:41:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: My pdp-8 move this weekend... In-Reply-To: <199903200319.AA29109@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > I'm going to take tools to dismantle things, rope to tie things > down, and a digital camera to take pictures of cabling and/or > locations of things so I can restore them at my place. Also to document the move and share with the list members :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 22:46:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by > MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows. > > A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or > just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the > sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard > controller chip got scrambled. Well, again, unless someone comes forth to edumacate me, there's typically no way to destroy hardware from software, unless you count that POKE from BASIC on the PET. Also, maybe monitors I guess since you can ruin one by running it at the wrong sync rate or what not. But you can't send a "bug" out to go munch on a "chip". C'mon, you've been watching that movie _Hackers_ too much. What you probably need to do is reset your BIOS. He probably put a BIOS scrambler trojan in your AUTOEXEC.BAT or something. It then executed when you reboot and fricked up the BIOS. > If you noticed the red text on the top of the page, I have removed all of > the images. I just didn't feel like deleting all the links. Well, you only had them up there for a day. From the time I got your message to the time I checked the page was only a few hours. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 22:51:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Sellam's market In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990319234328.20ff4a7c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 05:35 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sam wrote: > >On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > >> 2) boot disk for a Diskon (sp?) It's a CP/M (I think) system built into > >> a Televideo terminal housing. It's primary claim to fame is spport for a > >> LOT of alternate disk formats (my specialty) > > > >Is this the same as the Televideo 802? It sounds exactyly as you > >describe. I just picked up the computer but no disks came with it > >unfortunately. > > I don't think so. I have a service manual for the 802 and it lists the > parts for both the 802 and 806 and none of the major parts are the same. Well, I don't think he was talking about the 806. He's looking for a Diskon (or whatever) per his description. And that description sounds a lot like what I have. The 802 looks like a Televideo terminal made wider to accomodate two 5.25" disk drives stacked vertically one the left side of the CRT. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 19 23:04:46 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Sun 4/110 In-Reply-To: <199903182306.SAA23248@crobin.home.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19990318181318.3a671340@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990319210134.00a57b00@mcmanis.com> From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Mar 19 22:57:53 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Calling Doug Yowza - right e-mail? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990319205903.57a7b8e6@ricochet.net> At 08:01 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >> I can't seem to get Doug's right e-mail address...Doug, e-mail me. > >I don't think Doug is on the list anymore. I think he was one of the >people that jumped after the last flamewar. However, I'm in need of his >current e-mail address also. The collector formerly known as Yowza (sold out to the flesh peddlers, the lucky bugger) can be reached at . And yes, I believe he's no longer on ClassicCmp. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 19 23:16:28 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990319211317.00ac3ee0@mcmanis.com> At 08:46 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: >Well, again, unless someone comes forth to edumacate me, there's typically >no way to destroy hardware from software, unless you count that POKE from >BASIC on the PET. "modern" computers have writable BIOS "roms." Malevolent crackers are writing bombs these days that scribble bits in nasty places in your BIOS. One of the worst is called "last place AWARD" that destroys an AWARD BIOS and resets your computer. No bios, no boot, no way to flash a new bios without some fairly specialized equipment (to do in circuit Flash programming.) --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 23:34:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:11 2005 Subject: Maximum version of MacOS for Mac SE? Message-ID: What's the highest version of MacOS that can run on a Mac SE? 7.3? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Mar 19 23:37:33 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Sun 4/110 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319210134.00a57b00@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 19, 99 09:04:46 pm Message-ID: <199903200537.VAA13151@fraser.sfu.ca> I had 2 Sun 4/110s, sold one a few months back, the other is in my office at work. Nice machines, reliable, they run NetBSD solidly. See the NetBSD site for the sparc port, latest version is 1.3.3. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Mar 20 02:40:40 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <01be72ad$55f3c3e0$4c8ea6d1@the-general> I have an AMIBIOS "Burn-IN". I've reset it with the "clear BIOS jumper", left the battery out for three days, and still no serial ports.-- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 ------///////// -----// // ----// ## ---// ////### --// //#### -/////////## ## -----------/ ## / ## / ## / ######## /-----------> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 9:11 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) >At 08:46 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > >"modern" computers have writable BIOS "roms." Malevolent crackers are >writing bombs these days that scribble bits in nasty places in your BIOS. >One of the worst is called "last place AWARD" that destroys an AWARD BIOS >and resets your computer. No bios, no boot, no way to flash a new bios >without some fairly specialized equipment (to do in circuit Flash programming.) > >--Chuck > > > From donm at cts.com Fri Mar 19 23:41:57 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: some items In-Reply-To: <01be7274$a5affea0$b7c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > Bummer... Anyone need it(4.)? And anyone know anything about the > televideo 806es? > - Mike: dogas@leading.net I might be interested in the TK50Z-GA, Mike. The suckers are heavy, though. What is your geography? The TS-806/20 is a Z-80 based unit that runs CP/M, MMMOST, or TurboDOS. They were usually used as a server to other Televideo micros that were networked to it via RS-422 ports. It can also be used as a standalone machine. The networking configuration used either MMMOST - a Televideo operating system - or TurboDOS. CP/M supported only standalone. The usual terminal when used as a server was the TS-800A, but most any other can be used in standalone mode (and possibly in server mode as well). I have docs and disks for the 806. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 19 23:52:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Maximum version of MacOS for Mac SE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What's the highest version of MacOS that can run on a Mac SE? 7.3? IIRC, it's 7.5.x, I'm pretty sure the 68000 based systems weren't supported starting in 7.6 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Mar 19 23:49:02 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: test? In-Reply-To: <36F24F27.533B6388@mindspring.com> from "bluoval" at Mar 19, 99 08:20:39 am Message-ID: <199903200549.VAA19671@saul9.u.washington.edu> > test. I can't see my posts. why? As someone else pointed out, you're not subscribed. (I just checked the list of subscribers so I'm pretty sure this is true.) Send mail to listproc@u.washington.edu with no subject; put the line subscribe classiccmp _____ in the body of the message. Instead of _____ write your real name (or however you want to be known to the other people on the list). You can't include your e-mail address that way -- the address you use to send the subscription request is the one where your list messages will go. -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Mar 19 23:52:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be72ad$55f3c3e0$4c8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I have an AMIBIOS "Burn-IN". I've reset it with the "clear BIOS jumper", > left the battery out for three days, and still no serial ports.-- Is this a moderately new motherboard (like within the last 4-5 years)? If so then it might be time for a Flash update. Search the web for the BIOS company's web site, they should have a download section with flash BIOS images. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From liam1 at ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 20 00:29:43 1999 From: liam1 at ix.netcom.com (Liam Busey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Maximum version of MacOS for Mac SE? References: Message-ID: <36F34057.67AC@ix.netcom.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > What's the highest version of MacOS that can run on a Mac SE? 7.3? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: astar@siconic.com System 7.5.5 on a 4Mb SE. You won't have much ram leftover for applications though. Liam Busey From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 20 00:25:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <19990320062512.30440.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jason wrote: > A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, I'm not a virus expert, but I am an experienced embedded systems programmer, and have done some hardware design. That said, this claim sounds completely ridiculous to me, on par with an urban legend. Care to explain this from a electronics (or physics, or chemistry) point of view? > or just scrambling the code in the chip. In a flash BIOS, maybe, although that would be tend to be specific to a certain motherboard. There's no general way to write a virus that can trash the BIOS on any arbitrary motherboard, because unlike much of the "PC standard", there is not a stanard for how the flash BIOS programming works. Different motherboards use different types of flash chips that have different programming requirements. I've never yet heard of a virus doing this, although I'll concede that it is possible. Decent motherboards require you to physically move a jumper in order to enable programming the BIOS, to prevent exactly this kind of problem. However, changing the BIOS such that the machine still booted but simply didn't have INT 13 serial support wouldn't prevent all software from using the serial port. Most software these days doesn't even bother to go through the BIOS to access the ports, because (1) the BIOS interface is incredibly lame, and (2) on some machines the BIOS functions don't even work correctly. > (I know someone (Ironically, it's the sister of the person that did this > to my computer), who's keyboard controller chip got scrambled. Sounds like a complete coincidence to me. Except for exotic (and fairly expensive) keyboards, the firmware is in masked ROM inside a microcontroller, and there is no way to modify it without physically replacing the chip. Eric From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 00:19:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <008501be7299$967ba180$7f483cd1@fuj03> These Motherboards have jumpers which must be set to enable the programming voltage to the Flash memory. If you make sure the jumper is in the inactive position, nothing and no one will be able to mess with your BIOS FROM. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 10:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) >At 08:46 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: >>Well, again, unless someone comes forth to edumacate me, there's typically >>no way to destroy hardware from software, unless you count that POKE from >>BASIC on the PET. > >"modern" computers have writable BIOS "roms." Malevolent crackers are >writing bombs these days that scribble bits in nasty places in your BIOS. >One of the worst is called "last place AWARD" that destroys an AWARD BIOS >and resets your computer. No bios, no boot, no way to flash a new bios >without some fairly specialized equipment (to do in circuit Flash programming.) > >--Chuck > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 00:20:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <008801be7299$d44afec0$7f483cd1@fuj03> I'd certainly like to know what kind of a virus and what kind of chip that would be. There's little programmable logic on a modern PC, and none of it, if the board is jumpered as it should be, can be changed by accident or vandalism. Please correct me, with details, please, if I'm wrong. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 9:52 PM Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) >On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > >> The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by >> MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows. >> >> A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or >> just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the >> sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard >> controller chip got scrambled. > >Well, again, unless someone comes forth to edumacate me, there's typically >no way to destroy hardware from software, unless you count that POKE from >BASIC on the PET. Also, maybe monitors I guess since you can ruin one by >running it at the wrong sync rate or what not. But you can't send a "bug" >out to go munch on a "chip". C'mon, you've been watching that movie >_Hackers_ too much. > >What you probably need to do is reset your BIOS. He probably put a BIOS >scrambler trojan in your AUTOEXEC.BAT or something. It then executed when >you reboot and fricked up the BIOS. > >> If you noticed the red text on the top of the page, I have removed all of >> the images. I just didn't feel like deleting all the links. > >Well, you only had them up there for a day. From the time I got your >message to the time I checked the page was only a few hours. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 20 00:36:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question In-Reply-To: <36F32258.F78D7D41@idirect.com> (message from Jerome Fine on Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:21:44 -0500) References: <199903192043.AA11126@world.std.com> <199903200259.AA17625@world.std.com> <36F32258.F78D7D41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <19990320063652.30506.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What was a GT40? A graphics terminal based on the small (5.5 inch tall) PDP-11/05 minicomputer, with a VR14 vector display (14-inch magnetically deflected X-Y monitor), a keyboard, and a light pen. The display list processor of the GT40 is a three-board set, referred to in some of the documentation as a VT40. The same boards in a different backplane were available for use on other Unibus systems as a VT11. The display list processor has a boot PROM that makes the GT40 act as a dumb terminal, and supports downloading of executables over the serial line from the host in a special format. (Unfortunately the actual boot PROM in my GT40 doesn't match the listing in the manual; in fact it's not even *close*.) > I was asked recently to comment on a system > which originally used a VT05 and then a VT52. I actually kept a > working VT52. What was a VT05? Or at least what were the > differences between a VT05 and a VT52? The VT05 was the first raster CRT terminal DEC made in-house. It is not as tall as a VT52, but a little deeper (which is amazing as the VT52 is quite deep). The styling was that early-1970s "futuristic" styling. If memory serves, it has only 12 lines of display, and is fairly "dumb". By comparison, the VT52 or the classic ADM-3 dumb terminal is genius-class. > Also, as far as I know, the VT11 support was still present in V5.4G > of RT-11. At least some of it. > Mentec has access to V5.3 of RT-11. Actually, everyone who wants > to run V5.3 of RT-11 under a hobby license with the Supnik emulator > can download V5.3 from gatekeeper. Unfortunately this license does not allow me to use the software on my GT40. If I added VT11 simulation to Supnik's emulator, at least I could run it on a simulated GT40. :-) I'm hoping to be able to demonstrate the GT40 at the upcoming Vintage Computer Festival. However, since I don't have an operating system to run on it, I will only be able to load one game into core and leave it running. I'd hoped to be able to set up a menu program that would load other games from a disk, but I'm not going to go the all the trouble of doing that without an operating system. Cheers, Eric From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 00:26:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <008f01be729a$9a9775e0$7f483cd1@fuj03> A virus could conceivably alter the volatile parameters in the BIOS-controlled CMOS parameter table. This would possibly alter the port configurations and addresses. The MSD is worse than worthless for diagnosing problems in your PC. It is useful for guessing at what WIndows might do with what's there. If someone maliciously wanted to fool your computer into believing it has a configuration that's not valid, it could change the CMOS parameter memory content and enable the plug-n-pray flag, such that the system reconfigures its resource assignments differently than Windows is set to anticipate, which will confuse it. This sort of thing wouldn't happen if you didn't let vandals and criminals into your computer facility. People who think it's clever to damage the content of your computer are no better than those useless wastes of skin that go around painting graffitti on other people's property. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jason Willgruber To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 8:40 PM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) >The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by >MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows. > >A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or >just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the >sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard >controller chip got scrambled. > >If you noticed the red text on the top of the page, I have removed all of >the images. I just didn't feel like deleting all the links. >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sellam Ismail >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 6:51 PM >Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) > > >>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >>> >Check out my website: >>> > >>> >http://members.tripod.com/general_1 >>> > >>> In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose >>> hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the >>> Empire State Building. >> >>I think what Jason may not have initially realized (and maybe still not >>yet even) is that his Windows system configuration files got screwed and >>therefore his serial ports are no longer accessible under windows. As far >>as I know, its impossible to physically damage a serial port through >>software unless you make it possible by building a device whose soul >>purpose is to electrically short pins on the serial port on command. And >>of course, no sane persson would go through the trouble. >> >>So all he really needs to do is probably go into the Cntrol Panel, select >>System, then go to ports, remove the old serial ports (if they are still >>there) then add them again. Or maybe let windows find them for you with >>the Add New Hardware icon. >> >>BTW, I checked out the web site but all the links are bad. They all end >>up at a Tripod "page not found" page. >> >>Sellam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >--- >>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >> >> > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Mar 20 00:59:09 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <19990320062512.30440.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> <01be7297$f632b8e0$e58ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990319225514.009dcc70@mcmanis.com> At 06:25 AM 3/20/99 +0000, Eric wrote: >In a flash BIOS, maybe, although that would be tend to be specific to a >certain motherboard. There's no general way to write a virus that can trash >the BIOS on any arbitrary motherboard, because unlike much of the >"PC standard", there is not a stanard for how the flash BIOS programming >works. Different motherboards use different types of flash chips that >have different programming requirements. *Note* This is hearsay as I didn't go with the AWARD BIOS for our system at FreeGate, we used the AMI BIOS instead, however the hack does exist which lends at least some credibility to the message. I was told, by a person normally familiar with such things, that in an effort to be "helpful" AWARD added some "internal use only" calls to their BIOS that, when called, enable the FLASH for writing and can write to it. Allegedly it is pretty clearly documented in the OEM kit. This saves on manufacturers having to write their own BIOS update program since they can use the "standard" one supplied by AWARD. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 20 02:35:19 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market References: Message-ID: <36F35DC7.2884E382@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT > ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET > VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way > ebay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price > speculation on the part of buyers? > > The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and > should not define what the rest of us should have to pay! Are you interested in getting a hot topic going for VCF III? Put me down on the panel to debate the function online auctions play in determining pricing, and the relationship of that pricing to perceived value. Your statement about MECHANISMS IN PLACE is interesting, but anyone who stops to think will realize that any type of marketing will produce the same results. So why are you trying to make ebay a special case (which it is not)? Since this is getting seriously off topic, I'll let it drop, but you might want to consider this topic for VCF III! > I'm throwing my support behind whatever effort takes place to create a > free buy/sell/trade bulletin board. Its something I've been wanting to do > for a while, and I think the time is right. I see a need and a purpose > for it, and it will be a great year round anchor for the VCF activities, > which is why I'd be willing to put whatever time and money it takes to > bring it to fruition and have it sponsored by the VCF. Free? I think this is a great idea, but generally speaking, "free" to one person can be expensive to another. To name just one example, VCF. You have put a great deal of time, effort, AND money into getting it up and running with minimal cost to participants. I think a better idea would be to have niche market mini-online auctions, and charge accordingly. I don't think I have ever found someone who objected to ebay charges. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Mar 19 23:29:34 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Micom 2000 Message-ID: <199903201030.FAA18006@smtp.interlog.com> A chance quote in the Cromemco thread by Sellam led me to some info on the old Micom 2000 I've had for some time. Seems that historically it was in good company, with the Atairs, MITS, and the Apple 1 (included for context). I guess when I did my last search Don Poullsons definitive list wasn't up yet. FROM TIMELINE OF MICROCOMPUTER HISTORY................Poulsson March (75) Fred Moore and Gordon French hold the first meeting of a new microcomputer hobbyist's club in French's garage, in Menlo Park, California. 32 people meet, including Bob Albrect, Steve Dompier, Lee Felsenstein, Bob Marsh, Tom Pittman, Marty Spergel, Alan Baum, and Steven Wozniak. Bob Albrect shows off an Altair, and Steve Dompier reports on MITS, and how they had 4000 orders for the Altair. [185.110] [266.104] [301.55] [346.18] [353.200] [346.257] (April [208.67] 266.39) Stephen Dorsey, founder of Automatic Electronic Systems, sells his 25% of the company for $135,000. [615.98] Stephen Dorsey and Louis Miller found Micom Data Systems, in Canada. [615.90] July (75) Bill Gates and Paul Allen sign a licensing agreement with MITS, for their implementation of the BASIC language. [299.8] Bill Gates and Paul Allen ship 4K and 8K version of BASIC v2.0. [123] Dick Heiser opens Arrow Head Computer Company, subtitled "The Computer Store", in Los Angeles, selling assembled Altairs, boards, peripherals, and magazines. This is the first retail computer store in the USA. [266.185] [684.41] Micom Data Systems ships its first product, the Micom 2000 word processing computer. [615.99] September (75) IBM's Entry Level Systems unit unveils "Project Mercury", the IBM 5100 Portable Computer. It is a briefcase-size minicomputer with BASIC, 16KB RAM, tape storage, and built-in 5-inch screen. Price: US$9000. Weight: 55 pounds. [9] [197.xi] (Price over US$10,000 [203.10]) The first issue of Byte magazine is published. [9] [266.159] March (76) Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs finish work on a computer circuit board, that they call the Apple I computer. [46] By the end of its first year in business, Micom Data Systems ships 180 Micom 2000 computers, worth $2 million. [615.99] May (78) Stephen Dorsey signs an agreement with Philips to sell them 80% ownership of Micom Data Systems. [615.103] May (83) Philips buys out Stephen Dorsey's remaining 20% ownership of Micom Data Systems. [615.103] [615] Knights of the New Technology - The Inside Story of Canada's Computer Elite, by David Thomas, 1983. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Mar 19 23:29:33 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.19990319092758.2eef37ce@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199903201030.FAA18079@smtp.interlog.com> On 19 Mar 99 at 10:39, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > > > I could find only http://www.cromemco.com/EN/en.html, but no links to any > > history, etc. > > Go to www.cromemco.com and click on the History button on the sidebar to > the left. It helps if you have frames. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com I got the same. I suspect it's because you need Java. There were no sidebars and I am frame enabled. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Mar 20 02:59:42 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I think you should do it. I have a batch of Mac IIfx and I may try a >> parallel arrangement with them one of my friends told me about. >> >> As an experiment lots is to be learned from this. I don't however have any >> plans to "use" it. >> >> For a start I suggest looking at some of the encryption cracking efforts. > >Well, I haven't heard of Beowulf being implemented under MacLinux. Hmmm Beowulf sounds like what my friend said. Whatever the name this was something that either started on, or was immediately ported to the IIfx platform for some reason (a real reason, not the rhetorical "for some reason"). From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 20 04:59:54 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. In-Reply-To: Dean Billing "Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system." (Mar 19, 16:29) References: <199903200029.QAA24814@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <9903201059.ZM23213@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 19, 16:29, Dean Billing wrote: > Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. > I have also been scanning all of the WEB sights that have information about > UCSD PASCAL and obsolete and disappeared computers and I find no reference > to Sage Computer Technology of Reno, NV. They made the Sage II/IV systems > that came with UCSD PASCAL installed. They were M-68000 based systems and > probably ran other operating systems too. Anybody remember them? If you mean what I think, I have two of them (Sage-II's). A Sage-II is a cream-coloured box with dark grey front and rear panels. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 20 08:25:04 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Calling Doug Yowza - right e-mail? In-Reply-To: References: <013901be7282$f1745300$af3ffea9@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990320082504.2e9f81b0@intellistar.net> At 08:01 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >>Sorry for the intrusion: >> >> I can't seem to get Doug's right e-mail address...Doug, e-mail me. >>Thanks! > >I don't think Doug is on the list anymore. I think he was one of the >people that jumped after the last flamewar. However, I'm in need of his >current e-mail address also. Doug's address is the same as it was before he left the list. "Doug " Joe From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Mar 20 06:48:34 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Fw: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <003d01be72d1$f0985900$af3ffea9@office1> Hello, all: I've had some interesting correspondance with Tom Fischer, of Fischer-Frietas. See below... [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Thomas Fischer Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:47 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research > Tom: > > >I have some ambitious plans in > > store to satisfy some of the demand for a return to the "feel" of early > > microcomputing. Those plans will unravel over the next couple of months > on > > www.imsai.net. > > That is excellent! In the IMSAI's heyday, I wasn't aware of the subtile > elegance of the S100 machines (I'm 32 now, so I was about 14 in 1981). Most > of my computing focus at the time was the micros: Commodore, Tandy, and > Apple, which is what I used in school. > > I didn't become interested in computers that pre-date the micros until > about 3 years ago when I began collecting in earnest. I started with some of > the micros which I grew-up on, and then expanded to others, including my > only S100 machine, a Northstar Horizon. My collection still includes many > micros, but also some SBCs, workstations, and a PDP11. I also belong to an > on-line group of collectors who share history, folklore, collecting and > repairing tips for these machines. > > FWIW, what I'd like to see is a 25th Anniversary IMSAI 8080 Kit. Price > point: about $500. This would give those of us who have not had the > experience of building a true computer kit the opportunity to do so. > > I'll be anxiously watching your site. Good luck. > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW7 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > <---------------------------- reply separator > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Thomas Fischer > To: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 10:48 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research > > > > At 10:28 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >Tom: > > > > > > This is a second try... > > (snip) > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > > >To: Thomas Fischer > > >Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 6:41 PM > > >Subject: Re: Pre-history of Digital Research > > > > > > > > >> Tom: > > >> > > >> I say your post and was intrigued. What ever happened to IMSAI > after > > >F-F > > >> owned it? In all that I have read, IMSAI's history ended at F-F. > > >> > > >> Thanks! > > >> > > >> [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > > >> [ ClubWin!/CW7 > > >> [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > > >> [ Collector of "classic" computers > > >> [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > >> [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > > (snip) > > Hello Richard, > > > > Nancy and I retreated to Orangevale California (near Sacramento) in early > > 1984 to preserve our shrinking assets and enjoy a more idyllic country > > style life. We continued support and sales until 1986 when my consulting > > and design talents took me into other ventures. IMSAI remained dormant > > until a few months ago when the collectability issues and perceived demand > > prompted me to renew our trademarks and once again consider serious > > participation in the retro-computing area. I have some ambitious plans > in > > store to satisfy some of the demand for a return to the "feel" of early > > microcomputing. Those plans will unravel over the next couple of months > on > > www.imsai.net. > > > > Thank you for your interst and support. Best regards, > > > > -Thomas "Todd" Fischer > > > > > > From amirault at epix.net Sat Mar 20 12:04:23 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 References: Message-ID: <36F3E327.B23E440C@epix.net> Tony, I want to find a monitor that will work on the HP Apollo 400 without having to do alot of tinkering. I have found this, it is THE monitor that is supposed to go with the system. The cost is about $100 includung shipping to my door. I am talking with my girlfriend and we may decide to take a road trip to get the monitor, if it is ok with the owner of the monitor. The monitor is in Georgia and we are in Susquehanna, Pennsylvania. The question of affordability is not a problem, I can afford either way. The monitor for the HP Apollo 400 has three BNC connectors on the back to connect to the CPU and SYNC is on green. Tony, I hope this clears up what I am trying to do. John Amirault Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > If you're thinking about the monitor as being useable with a PC, it depends > > Why would anyone want to take the monitor of a (classic) workstation and > use it with a PC? The reverse (using a cheap PC monitor on a workstation > that's lost its monitor I can understand). > > :-) > > -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 20 09:09:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <199903201509.AA12728@world.std.com> In einer eMail vom 20.03.99 03:36:49 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << AM7992BCD >> Maybe you mean AM 7992 BDC ??? Lots of these in stock at http://www.hrent.com John G. Zabolitzky From amirault at epix.net Sat Mar 20 12:37:18 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) References: Message-ID: <36F3EADE.D3BC772C@epix.net> Sellam, If you read the RED words at the top of Jason's web page it says all the pictures have been removed "FOR SECURITY REASONS". I for one do not know what type of "SECURITY REASONS" he has, maybe he will enlighten us all. I do know that my PENTIUM HAS THREE TYPES OF COMPUTERS IT CAN BE SET UP AS 1. DESK TOP, 2.NETWORK SERVER(in my opinion not a good choice) 3. I can't remember right now as I am on my 486 @ my girlfriends. If Jason is using Windoze 98 or any OS he can check his MANUAL to find out about security. When Jason is off line he can unplug his modem and NO ONE can hack into his computer. Another thing you can do if you don't want to keep plugging and unplugging is get a hold button from someplace like "Radio Shack" and put it inline on your modem line and then when you hang up push the button to place the computer on "hold", that is the phone line is physically disconnected from the computer by a switch. Jason, please take this cordially as it is intended to HELP not to chastise. I am sure there are many people out there that know much more than I do about computers and I hope that they will share some knowledge with you. John Amirault Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > >Check out my website: > > > > > >http://members.tripod.com/general_1 > > > > > In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose > > hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the > > Empire State Building. > > I think what Jason may not have initially realized (and maybe still not > yet even) is that his Windows system configuration files got screwed and > therefore his serial ports are no longer accessible under windows. As far > as I know, its impossible to physically damage a serial port through > software unless you make it possible by building a device whose soul > purpose is to electrically short pins on the serial port on command. And > of course, no sane persson would go through the trouble. > > So all he really needs to do is probably go into the Cntrol Panel, select > System, then go to ports, remove the old serial ports (if they are still > there) then add them again. Or maybe let windows find them for you with > the Add New Hardware icon. > > BTW, I checked out the web site but all the links are bad. They all end > up at a Tripod "page not found" page. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 09:13:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <000601be72e4$3d269040$60483cd1@fuj03> Marvin, you're right on the money! Sam objects to "idiots" bidding against presumably rational people and allowing the prices to escalate (he believes) due to the auction atmosphere presented by eBay. I don't happen to agree with him. The people who sell their good at auction wish for a ridiculously hign price. They don't often get it. The notion that these high bidders are idiots is false, however. You remember what was paid for John Kennedy's cigar Humidor? Well only an idiot would pay that for a humidor, right? It's the market that determines what an item is worth at any given time, and these "idiots" are free to roam the market, as are those who hope that THEIR Altair serial I/O board will look, to someone else, like JFK's humidor. It's true, that eBay seeks to benefit by this overall-inane-if-not-insane auction environment, simply because their fee is tied to the final bid offered. Sam objects to this, while I object to the high precentage of failed transactions which eBay freely admits. I also dislike the fact that eBay charges for the price and not for the amount paid, which, in the failed transactions, is nil. A few days ago, I was visiting Best Buy, which is a common source of computer hardware at reasonable prices. I declined to pay $180 for a 10GB hard disk because I though the price was a mite high. That was not the only reason, but it was a factor. Twenty years ago, I paid $1500 for a 5MB Winchester drive. Lots of other people thought the price was a mite high, but I paid the price, believing that I needed the drive more than I needed the $1500. Does that make me an idiot? Does that make all the people who didn't buy the things twenty years ago fools? I think not. All this is an allusion to the fact that it's called a "free" market. I guess that means that there's no restriction against fools and idiots. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 1:38 AM Subject: Re: sellers market > > >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > >> Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT >> ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET >> VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way >> eBay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price >> speculation on the part of buyers? >> >> The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and >> should not define what the rest of us should have to pay! > >Are you interested in getting a hot topic going for VCF III? Put me down on >the panel to debate the function online auctions play in determining >pricing, and the relationship of that pricing to perceived value. > >Your statement about MECHANISMS IN PLACE is interesting, but anyone who >stops to think will realize that any type of marketing will produce the same >results. So why are you trying to make ebay a special case (which it is >not)? > >Since this is getting seriously off topic, I'll let it drop, but you might >want to consider this topic for VCF III! > >> I'm throwing my support behind whatever effort takes place to create a >> free buy/sell/trade bulletin board. Its something I've been wanting to do >> for a while, and I think the time is right. I see a need and a purpose >> for it, and it will be a great year round anchor for the VCF activities, >> which is why I'd be willing to put whatever time and money it takes to >> bring it to fruition and have it sponsored by the VCF. > >Free? I think this is a great idea, but generally speaking, "free" to one >person can be expensive to another. To name just one example, VCF. You have >put a great deal of time, effort, AND money into getting it up and running >with minimal cost to participants. > > I think a better idea would be to have niche market mini-online auctions, >and charge accordingly. I don't think I have ever found someone who objected >to ebay charges. From amirault at epix.net Sat Mar 20 13:16:28 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) References: Message-ID: <36F3F40C.292498C7@epix.net> Zane, Have you gone into the BIOS and clicked on LOAD BIOS DEFAULTS ? I hope this helps. Do you have a RESCUE DISK for the computer to use after doing bios defaults? Maybe you could do a format on the hard drive and reinstall everything. By all means USE an ANTI-VIRUS program. John Amirault Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by > >MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows. > > > >A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or > >just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the > >sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard > >controller chip got scrambled. > > Have you tried upgrading your systems BIOS? Somehow I think that's about > the only thing a virus could do to mess up your system. > > BTW, this is a good reason NOT to run Windows. I'd recommend either > getting a system that runs OpenVMS or at least installing UNIX on the > system you have. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 10:01:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <001d01be72ea$ec9a4700$60483cd1@fuj03> This web site is worth a visit. It seems to imply that as time allows, they're going to publish documents on the web, and perhaps even produce more of their old product line. These old computers still do what they always did, and, frankly, as we move in the dircection of a PC with no expansion slots inside the box, it does look like a return to "fiddle-able" hardware of some sort is needed in order to cover the needs of the person who needs to monitor ten switches and drive a dozen relays. Cards with which to do this are all too rare, and I've seen lots of cases where one S-100 box with the old IMSAI PIO-4 board would easily have done what I routinely see four PC's doing through their printer ports. Will this one web site lead to a resurrection of the "old days?" Well, probably not, but there's certainly cause for thought. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 6:06 AM Subject: Fw: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research >Hello, all: > > I've had some interesting correspondance with Tom Fischer, of >Fischer-Frietas. See below... > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ ><---------------------------- reply separator From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sat Mar 20 10:11:36 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: My pdp-8 move this weekend... In-Reply-To: <199903200319.AA29109@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903201622.KAA26354@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> This might get to you too late tobe of use, but some advice from someone who rolled a PDP-12 down a ramp of a similar truck. Up will probably be no problem, assuming you separate the -8 into it's individual racks. (Otherwise, when part of it starts up, the part in back will drag the bottom of the rack on the ground). You just push. Coming down can be tricky, because you want to be in control at all times. What we did (thanks to my friend Hannes, who being an experience sailor, is quite good with lines) was make a control line. What we did was basically this: 1. Move the machine to the edge of the ramp. 2. Tie a line *across* the back of the door of the truck about mid-rack height, with a loop made at the midpoint in the line, by tying a knot with a loop sticking thru. This line should be reasonably slack-free and tied very securly. 3. Tie a line to the rack, run it back up to the loop and back down. You want to tie the line to the rack high enough so that the rack cannot tip over and low enough so that the rack won't tip over. 4. If you have some block & tackle, better yet. Secure that to the line across the truck. BE CAREFUL OF THE RACK BEING TOP HEAVY. That way, we could have one person easing the rack down without having to be on the ramp, while another could *pull* the rack down (against the tension on the line). It made things a lot safer then they would otherwise have been. Another thing we have done from time to time is labeled and disconnected cables at the originating site, loaded the truck with the racks full, but then pulled the units out of the racks before wheeling the racks down the ramp. SAFETY FIRST! Jay At 10:19 PM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Thanks to all those who made suggestions on how to do the move. > >It turns out that the problem with lift gates has more to do with >the fact that both Ryder and Budget (and I'm sure other places >which rent vehicles) have separated their 'consumer' and 'commercial' >truck rental groups. I found that although it is possible to find >a truck with a lift-gate in the consumer division, they aren't >generally where you want them to be (I'm in framingham, MA, and >the closest one they could find was south boston... and at $.39 >a mile for Ryder, that would add up quickly). The commercial >division is where you would find the lift-gates, but they would >be on larger trucks (>24ft) with air brakes, etc... things which >would require CDL... > >So, that is out. The only thing I could find was a 15' long >7' high truck with a ramp... I got dollies, so I'll be able to >roll things into the truck. I'm getting moving pads to protect >everything. > >I'm going to take tools to dismantle things, rope to tie things >down, and a digital camera to take pictures of cabling and/or >locations of things so I can restore them at my place. > >Now, the only problem I've got is that the person who had offered >to help in the move is sick and can't help, so unless I can find >someone to help, I'll be wrangling this stuff alone at my place. > >If there is anyone in the framingham, ma (sudbury, natick, marlboro, >maynard, etc) area who might be able to help, it would be much >appreciated. Meal/snacks are on me... > >Please write to me off-line any time between now and about 9am >tomorrow... Thanks in advance to anyone who can help... Think >of the chance to handle some *real iron* (tm) :) > >And look for pictures of the move in a few days on my web page... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From gram at cnct.com Sat Mar 20 10:48:46 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <000601be72e4$3d269040$60483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You remember what was paid for John Kennedy's cigar Humidor? Well only an > idiot would pay that for a humidor, right? It's the market that determines > what an item is worth at any given time, and these "idiots" are free to roam > the market, as are those who hope that THEIR Altair serial I/O board will > look, to someone else, like JFK's humidor. So what's Bill Clinton's cigar humidor going to go for? -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 20 11:01:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <199903201701.AA10494@world.std.com> > This web site is worth a visit. It seems to imply that as time allows, > they're going to publish documents on the web, and perhaps even produce more > of their old product line. Yep.. That's what I got from the site. I don't own an IMSAI (yet) and certainly don't feel like paying $2000 for one. This could provide a viable alternative. Personally, I prefer to build a new one, using old technology, than to deal with a kit someone else built 25 years ago. Of course the components and methods would have to remain true to the original. The tenative price of $500 seems awfully high to me. After all, it's not like there is a lot of R&D involved, the components aren't exactly cutting-edge, and to some extent the markets are already established. This would certainly drive down the prices of the originals. For most of us that would be a good thing. If anyone has one that they want to unload before the bottom drops completely out, let me know ;-) Steve Robertson From fpp at concentric.net Sat Mar 20 11:21:38 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <000501be72f6$1f653400$97f8adce@paul> An important thing to remember is that the Original IMSAI sold for almost $1000. SO even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bells and whistles there is a cost savings due to selling hundres of thousands of the thing. An IMSAI kit maybe a few hundred or so. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 11:37:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <36F35DC7.2884E382@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Are you interested in getting a hot topic going for VCF III? Put me down on > the panel to debate the function online auctions play in determining > pricing, and the relationship of that pricing to perceived value. I'll consider it. The last thing I want to do is legitimize ebay as a market for the trade of old computers. > Your statement about MECHANISMS IN PLACE is interesting, but anyone who > stops to think will realize that any type of marketing will produce the same > results. So why are you trying to make ebay a special case (which it is > not)? You're missing the point. The mechanisms I am referring to are the way the auction itself works. The reserve price, the automatic bidding increase once the top bidder is bid against, and then there's the issue of emotions and how they affect bidding in an auction. All these factors contribute to the artificial inflation of prices. > > I'm throwing my support behind whatever effort takes place to create a > > free buy/sell/trade bulletin board. Its something I've been wanting to do > > for a while, and I think the time is right. I see a need and a purpose > > for it, and it will be a great year round anchor for the VCF activities, > > which is why I'd be willing to put whatever time and money it takes to > > bring it to fruition and have it sponsored by the VCF. > > Free? I think this is a great idea, but generally speaking, "free" to one > person can be expensive to another. To name just one example, VCF. You have > put a great deal of time, effort, AND money into getting it up and running > with minimal cost to participants. I'm a glutton for punishment. > I think a better idea would be to have niche market mini-online auctions, > and charge accordingly. I don't think I have ever found someone who objected > to ebay charges. I just object to the juggernaut its become. Besides, the whole point of creating a "B/S/T bulletin board" is to take the auction element out of it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From amirault at epix.net Sat Mar 20 11:44:59 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) References: <199903201701.AA10494@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36F3DE9B.35754D2A@epix.net> Hi, I am at home now and have checked for the 3 types of systems on the pentium. Go into control panel, system properties and then file system properties. The 3 are Desktop computer, Mobile or Docking system, Network Server. John Amirault Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Generally and based on experience with 35 desktop W95 sytems and 3 NT > servers as an internal (only) intranet. > > W95 has minimal security and is difficult to make hard for security. > Suitable as webserver in a non hostile environment not requiring security > from malicious users. > > Win NT can be secure, but watch those service packs as some improve it and a > few reduce it (bugs!). Generally fairly secure, common enough in use that > security holes are well known and publicized. > > I'm currently looking at linux, it has potential. > > Another I do know well is VMS as its generally very secure and made very > secure. It also has security by obscurity, most PC heads haven't a clue want > a VAX(alpha) or VMS is. > > Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 11:34:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Imsai Web Site Message-ID: <005c01be72f7$f7a18980$60483cd1@fuj03> I got the following (quoted) email in response to an inquiry regarding my couple of IMSAI parallel I/O boards. Their hit counter listed me as #13. I hope that's not an omen. The site is clearly a work in progress. If they see the direction the PC world is going, i.e. no expansion slots for us to use, they may actually see a market for the product types they sold twenty years ago. Who knows?? It's definitely worth a visit to the site < http://www.imsai.net > even if it's just for nostalgia. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Fischer To: Richard Erlacher Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:00 AM Subject: Re: documents ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: info@imsai.net Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:22 AM Subject: documents Over the years, I've been separated from my documents, or parts of my documents for the PIO-4 and PIO-4 boards. While, on the surface, these are quite transparent to understand, There are features, e.g. the 26-conductor connector at the top of the PIO-6, the purpose of which is not clear. Perhaps publishing the document for these boards will clear up my questions, which I'll bet are not unique. regards, Dick Erlacher Hi Dick, I'll see if I can get the PIO-6 info active tomorrow. That center connector brought out the bus control signals to complement the latched bi-directional signals for the other two connectors. If you're not already doing so, go to: http:/imsai.net since this is the new URL for IMSAI. Thanks for your interest. Best regards, -TRF -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/faec6dcd/attachment.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 11:45:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was Re: S-100 bus specs) In-Reply-To: <199903201030.FAA18079@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > I could find only http://www.cromemco.com/EN/en.html, but no links to any > > > history, etc. > > > > Go to www.cromemco.com and click on the History button on the sidebar to > > the left. It helps if you have frames. > > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > I got the same. I suspect it's because you need Java. There were no sidebars > and I am frame enabled. Yes, the sidebar is a Java applet. Here's the direct link for the Java-impaired: www.cromemco.com/EN/HistoryE/body_historye.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 12:01:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <000601be72e4$3d269040$60483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Sam objects to "idiots" bidding against presumably rational people and > allowing the prices to escalate (he believes) due to the auction atmosphere > presented by eBay. I don't happen to agree with him. The people who sell > their good at auction wish for a ridiculously hign price. They don't often Of course they wish for a ridiculously high price. And my argument, which you did not address, is that ebay's auction mechanism encourages such ridiculously high prices. > It's true, that eBay seeks to benefit by this overall-inane-if-not-insane > auction environment, simply because their fee is tied to the final bid > offered. Sam objects to this, while I object to the high precentage of And thus it is in ebay's best interest to put mechanisms in place which encourage over-bidding for an item. In the end they will collect the most revenues from the auction! > A few days ago, I was visiting Best Buy, which is a common source of > computer hardware at reasonable prices. I declined to pay $180 for a 10GB > hard disk because I though the price was a mite high. That was not the only > reason, but it was a factor. Twenty years ago, I paid $1500 for a 5MB > Winchester drive. Lots of other people thought the price was a mite high, > but I paid the price, believing that I needed the drive more than I needed > the $1500. Does that make me an idiot? Does that make all the people who > didn't buy the things twenty years ago fools? I think not. Well, who really NEEDS an Altair 8800? > All this is an allusion to the fact that it's called a "free" market. I > guess that means that there's no restriction against fools and idiots. Its a free market sure, but the prices that come out of ebay auctions are by no measure "fair market value". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 12:05:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: sellers market In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You remember what was paid for John Kennedy's cigar Humidor? Well only an > > idiot would pay that for a humidor, right? It's the market that determines > > what an item is worth at any given time, and these "idiots" are free to roam > > the market, as are those who hope that THEIR Altair serial I/O board will > > look, to someone else, like JFK's humidor. > > So what's Bill Clinton's cigar humidor going to go for? Screw that, what's the blue stained dress going to fetch? The Smithsonian turned it down, so that means an auction is not far off. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 12:10:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: The re-birth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <000501be72f6$1f653400$97f8adce@paul> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Paul Passmore wrote: > An important thing to remember is that the Original IMSAI sold for almost > $1000. SO even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bells > and whistles there is a cost savings due to selling hundres of thousands of > the thing. An IMSAI kit maybe a few hundred or so. It will undoubtedly cost into the hundreds. The materials and labor to build the case alone will probably be $100. Then there's the issue of obscure parts that are no longer available. Each board will need to be produced (etched), and unless he's still got all his original manufacturing equipment, they will be expensive to produce as well, in the volume that I expect the demand will warrant (i.e. probably not a lot). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 11:58:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: Fw: Welcome Back! {IMSAI} Message-ID: <007001be72fb$44cd1000$60483cd1@fuj03> I wrote Tom Fischer a few lines this morning, about the niche his "products of yesteryear" could fill in today's world. It's quoted below in his reply. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Fischer To: Richard Erlacher Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Welcome Back! ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: mail@imsai.net Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:40 AM Subject: Welcome Back! It's good to see you back, offering to support these venerable and still thoroughly useful microcomputers. Many of the functions which were commonly used back in the 1970's and '80's, but which are no longer supported in current generation microcomputers, are still valuable and in demand. Today, however, it is necessary to build custom hardware, often requiring a larger investment than it did in the '70's, to provide a simple function. It's not unusual to have an entire PC devoted to the handling of a few bits of control and monitoring, which was straightforward to handle back in "the good old days" with a parallel or serial port board which could be used to handle much more without taxing the CPU. I still use the old Intel boards, which I admittedly bought at inflated prices back in those days, to provide simple control and communication functions not convenient to provide with an entire PC. You may be surprised to find how much of the interest in the old S-100 boards there is today, not for the many hobbyists interested in "retrocomputing," but from persons like me, whose primary interest is in exploiting the control and monitoring capabilities of these systems. regards, Dick Erlacher Hi again, Dick- I started writing a "short reply" to your e-mail, but an hour later I have this. You brought out a few points that I've been meaning to articulate for a while, so here's a first draft. A modified form of this will appear on the imsai web page http://imsai.net as a call for comment from all interested parties. Thanks for your interest! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been living "in a bubble" with respect to how current desires and requirements for the older machines are concerned, so forgive me for a bit of historical rambling and perspective. Your input is desperately needed in order for me to fulfill some, in not all, of the requirements to be implemented in the new embodiment of the IMSAI line. I'm going to experiment with the concept of letting the user-to-be provide input about the architecture and bus requirements, perhaps developing a second-generation evolution to the venerable S-100 standard. In the mid-70's we started to explore the capabilities of those early machines and were fascinated with the ability to achieve higher-level logic and control functions in an open-architecture environment. The tremendous appeal was demonstrated by the sudden explosion of hobbyist computing magazines, hitherto non-existent, save for Radio-Electronics and Popular Electronics as examples of general circulation. Those of us involved in serious electronic design subscribed to professional publications such as Electronics (with my favorite "Electronic Casebook" feature), Electronic Design, IEEE Computer, etc. Subsequently we were witness to the unravelling and experimentation with newer levels of logic and integration of both digital and analogue design. We went from the cumbersome multi-voltage logic families like DTL and RTL (hobbyists couldn't practically afford ECL logic with its superior speed and high power requirements), to the infant TTL and later CMOS variants which eventually would prove practical for most design requirements. As the first logic families began to stabilize in popularity and standardization we build the TV Typewriter, the MARK 8 computer (based on newcomer INTEL's 8008 traffic light controller chip), and the CYCLOPS video capture device. Then, MITS sprang the ALTAIR 8800 on us. A bit later came the ALTAIR 680 which used the Motorola 6800 processor. The S-100 bus was an expensive entry into this infant field, but it allowed anyone armed with just a bit of electrical and mechanical know-how to build a machine that could interface to a televison, perform mathmatical operations, monitor and control machinery and remote functions and limitless other possibilites, all at 1 or 2 Mhz clock speeds, and with as little as 1K of RAM! Anyone could conceive and build a real-time clock board, a sound board, expansion memory board, I/O board, video display or capture board, interface to mass storage devices, limited only by the imagination. Like Henry Ford's Model T offered in bare-bones dress to the populace, the S-100 machines like ALTAIR and IMSAI brought entrepreneurial opportunity to the kitchen table! The more "left-brained" of us became programmers; the High Priests, writing clever code that would tame the cumbersome process of hand-loading instructions into the machine's memory. They ported software like assemblers, compilers, interpreters, BASIC and other high-level languages down from University and Corporate mainframe systems down to the microcomputer. The simple "Kill The Lights" program offered free with the first IMSAIs was an example of perhaps 60 instructions that had to be toggled into memory by various manipulations of the address and data switches, stepped by the EXAMINE, DEPOSIT, and SINGLE STEP switches. It seems archaic today but back then the wonder of this machine doing something marvelous because YOU built it AND programmed it was joyous beyond belief. (we were easily amused :) This S-100 architecture became "The Peoples' Architecture" and it flourished like nothing before it for perhaps a dozen years until eclipsed by the PC which, although still open-architecture (and superbly documented by IBM), was a magnitude of order more complicated and structured. Now the experimenter or designer had to master a BIOS, a more complicated bus structure, and a more expensive platform on which to prototype or design on. The increase in "horsepower" necessitated significantly greater expense and resources. I feel that the same situation still exists. Witness the popularity of Parallax' BASIC STAMP and embedded controllers in all forms like the PIC series, INTEL and MOTOROLA families, etc. These architectures are removed from the increasingly complicated structure embodied in the AT class of PC. I would like to propose a return to the basics in purpose and stategy. To encourage a leaner, more focused and straight-forward compromise between hardware and software considerations. To once again provide a development platform that is classic and utilitarian in purpose. There are two IMSAI machines planned for later this year. The first is a limited editon Platinum Classic machine featuring the front panel design and function that made it so popular in 1976. Inside, it will house a powerful Pentium-class motherboard on par with the most advanced Dell or Gateway machines, and high-wattage switching power supply. The front panel will have an embedded controller and interface for the still-to-be-defined bus, which will allow expansion in the same manner as the original S-100 architecture. Included will be a three-channel programmable Infrared communications link to allow interface and communications with virtually any device within IR range. A video bus, perhaps S-video, is also planned as a feature. The bus structure is open to comment, and a preliminary specification will be offered on http://imsai.net within the next couple of weeks. The second IMSAI machine will be similar with respect to the above, but will not include the PC motherboard, although provision will be allowed for the user to install his/her own. The front panel capabilities will be the same, but perhaps with limited capabilities installed (but upgradeable). It will look very much like the original IMSAI 8080 in color and proportion, but will probably NOT include the OCTAL representation under the HEXADECIMAL switch lableing like the original. I think that only octal-notation advocate George "flat Earth" Morrow would miss that feature. Let me know if you disagree. As for putting the original S-100 machine back in production, I think it would have to sell for around $1200.00 and require guaranteed sales of at least 500 units to make it a reality. But with IMSAI's and ALTAIR's selling for $3000 to$4000 on the internet, maybe that's a bargain! With a warranty to boot! I think we can all do better by embracing the new proposed standard. Please e-mail me with your comments, and pass the word. Best regards, -Thomas Fischer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/e93b8524/attachment.html From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 20 12:18:01 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market References: Message-ID: <36F3E659.FE088641@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I just object to the juggernaut its become. Besides, the whole point of > creating a "B/S/T bulletin board" is to take the auction element out of > it. Okay, it appears we are getting closer to why you really object; you don't like auctions. And I like auctions, along with flea markets, garage sales, rumaging through garages, warehouses, etc! From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 20 12:25:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: (gram@cnct.com) References: Message-ID: <19990320182510.32576.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Ward D. Griffiths III" asks: > So what's Bill Clinton's cigar humidor going to go for? I don't think those can legally be bought and sold in the US. Some wacky clause in the thirteenth amendment. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 12:24:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <36F3E659.FE088641@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > I just object to the juggernaut its become. Besides, the whole point of > > creating a "B/S/T bulletin board" is to take the auction element out of > > it. > > Okay, it appears we are getting closer to why you really object; you don't > like auctions. And I like auctions, along with flea markets, garage sales, > rumaging through garages, warehouses, etc! No, I like auctions too. I just don't like ebay's form of auction. I buy computers from all sorts of sources, but for the most part stay away from ebay. I do buy off ebay occasionally, but only when the price is reasonable and there is generally no other competition on the item (which is why I only buy occasionally :) Give me a real world auction any day! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 12:34:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <009801be7300$4705a8a0$60483cd1@fuj03> You're right, of course. The fact that they've decided on this auctioneer model for their business is simply a business decision. Judging from the price at which their stock trades, I'd say it was a good one. There is absolutely an evironment implicit in their business model, which encourages higher rather than lower prices. They get a cut of the final price. You, Sam, object to that, meaning their business model, and I don't blame you. I personally dislike even more, the fact that their transaction-completion-ratio is so low. It also encourages overbidding because it does not "force" either party to fulfil the obligations which are part of the implied relationship between seller and bidder. As a consequence, I, or anyone else, can overbid in an effort to punish the seller for starting the bidding at too high a level, i.e. I bid 20% high in the belief that no one will outbid that value, and then abort the transaction after the auction ends. This gets the auctioneer paid at the seller's expense, yet costs me nothing. Next month I use a different email account to identify myself, and all's well with eBay. You're right . . . it's not perfect. It's not my place to object, however, until something more to my liking comes along. I don't see that happening any time soon. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:07 AM Subject: Re: sellers market >On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Sam objects to "idiots" bidding against presumably rational people and >> allowing the prices to escalate (he believes) due to the auction atmosphere >> presented by eBay. I don't happen to agree with him. The people who sell >> their good at auction wish for a ridiculously hign price. They don't often > >Of course they wish for a ridiculously high price. And my argument, which >you did not address, is that ebay's auction mechanism encourages >such ridiculously high prices. > >> It's true, that eBay seeks to benefit by this overall-inane-if-not-insane >> auction environment, simply because their fee is tied to the final bid >> offered. Sam objects to this, while I object to the high precentage of > >And thus it is in ebay's best interest to put mechanisms in place which >encourage over-bidding for an item. In the end they will collect the >most revenues from the auction! > >> A few days ago, I was visiting Best Buy, which is a common source of >> computer hardware at reasonable prices. I declined to pay $180 for a 10GB >> hard disk because I though the price was a mite high. That was not the only >> reason, but it was a factor. Twenty years ago, I paid $1500 for a 5MB >> Winchester drive. Lots of other people thought the price was a mite high, >> but I paid the price, believing that I needed the drive more than I needed >> the $1500. Does that make me an idiot? Does that make all the people who >> didn't buy the things twenty years ago fools? I think not. > >Well, who really NEEDS an Altair 8800? > >> All this is an allusion to the fact that it's called a "free" market. I >> guess that means that there's no restriction against fools and idiots. > >Its a free market sure, but the prices that come out of ebay auctions are >by no measure "fair market value". > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From rickb at pail.enginet.com Sat Mar 20 12:46:55 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:12 2005 Subject: OS/8 Strangeness In-Reply-To: <36F3E327.B23E440C@epix.net> Message-ID: <004a01be7302$06a10fa0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> I recently acquired a complete PDP8/E system, with 2 RK05's and High Speed Tape Reader/Punch. I have one disk pack that seems bootable into OS/8. I can boot up just fine on this pack, but when I try a command, such as "DIR", I get the error message: CCL 3G OVERLAY & MONITOR INCOMPATIBLE SWITCH NOT ALLOWED HERE At this point, it seems that CCL is not running. Once this happens, I get a Keyboard Monitor prompt, and I can run DIRECT with "R DIRECT", and get directory listings of the disk just fine. The CCL.SV file is on the SYS: device (18 blocks long). I don't know what I did to confuse it, because when I booted up the first time, everything was fine...I did a VER and it returned information indicating that the OS/8 version was V3Q and the CCL version was V1F. Next time I booted up, I started getting this CCL error. Now when I try a VER command, I get the error message above. I found another pack that has a CCL.SV on it (but this one is 17 blocks long), and used FOTP to move the CCL.SV on the boot pack to CCL.XX, and copied over the CCL.SV off the other pack, and rebooted. It seemed to come up OK, and CCL is running. Now, when I do a VER I get OS/8 version of V3Q, but it reports the CCL version as (CCL VERSION A). A definite change. If I delete CCL.SV completely and boot, I get a Keyboard Monitor OK, and then I did "R CCL.XX" to load up and run the V1F version of CCL, and I get "SWITCH NOT ALLOWED HERE", and CCL not is running. This leads me to believe that the CCL V1F bits are somehow screwed up. With the "VERSION A" CCL loaded, I can execute some CCL commands, but there is some weirdness. For example, the SET and HELP commands don't seem to work properly. HELP does weird things when run from the CCL command line, for example, just typing HELP results in the . prompt returning, with no output. Typing HELP followed by a keyword, like "HELP SET" results in "LINE TO LONG IN FILE#1". If I run HELP via "R HELP", it seems to work OK. The SET command seems beset with similar problems, for example typing "SET TTY NO PAUSE" results in ? OLD BASIC Some SET commands seem to work, but many do not. I think the weirdness with HELP and SET are related to something with the BRTS files, but the strange part is that with the V1F version of CCL, and nothing else changing (to my knowledge anyway) HELP and SET worked great. I think that I'm experiencing is that the original CCL.SV (V1F) on the bootable pack somehow got corrupted, and when I copied over the other CCL.SV (VERSION A) that I found, I'm running into some kind of CCL versus utility program version incompatibilities. Anyone have a paper tape with CCL V1F on it that I could borrow? I used OS/8 years and years ago, and have forgotten a lot. I've got a copy of the OS/8 handbook (First Printing, 1974), which is very helpful for refreshing the memory cells in my brain, but it doesn't seem to be helpful with regard to this kind of problem. The OS/8 handbook just says "The version of CCL being used is not compatible with the Keyboard Monitor present on the system. Type R CCL to retry". Well, their advice isn't real useful here. Another big problem I have is that I have no good way to get stuff from Unix or PC to the 8. I need to get KERMIT sources over to the 8 from a PC, so I can build KERMIT and then use it to move bits between a laptop PC and the 8. However, since the machine has no other means of 'input' of data other than the paper tape reader (I don't have any punch capability on any of my PC's or Unix machines) and the console tty, there's no real easy way. All I can think of is using "split" on the Unix side to break the KERMIT source file into small chunks, copying the chunks to a laptop, then hooking the laptop to the 8, and using TECO in "insert" mode, copying a chunk into the buffer, writing out the chunk into a file (or maybe using PIP FILE.PA Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Win NT can be secure, but watch those service packs as some improve it and a > few reduce it (bugs!). Generally fairly secure, common enough in use that > security holes are well known and publicized. Yep. Well known and publicized. The crackerz know them well. Unfortunately rarely fixed and if then after a long while. > I'm currently looking at linux, it has potential. Even more than NT, the security holes are well known and publicized, and as a result fixes tend to show up generally within 24 hours. (I think one hole took almost 72 hours to plug once, but it was rather tricky to exploit anyway -- the cracker needed to have read the source code). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Mar 20 13:01:14 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: References: <36F2A041.38029A2E@wfi-inc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990320140114.0091c100@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Sellam Ismail had spoken clearly: >On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >> I don't have much time at all, but have a lot of experience with web >> programming and would definitely donate whatever time and energy I could >> to something like this, if someone wanted to actually organise a >> project... >This is exactly the type of trading board that I've been meaning to add >to the VCF web site for aeons now. If you can provide the programming >I'll certainly host it. Its definitely a needed service. [snip] Hey! Hey! Hey! Yes, this is a *shameless* plug, but try this place: http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html and click on either the For Sale, Wanted or GuestBook... (It's an ontopic site - Model 100/102/200's...) And.... I wrote the programs that do that. It's simple, it's basic, but hey... it works! And... it's free, too! And... it's written in Perl, so it can run under most any operating system. And... And... Darn, ran out of Ginzu Knives... Oh well! ;^> If anyone wants the code, just zing me a private email... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 20 13:37:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <199903201937.AA01152@world.std.com> from "Jason Willgruber" at Mar 19, 99 10:07:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1998 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/874ee405/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 12:50:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. In-Reply-To: <9903201059.ZM23213@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 20, 99 10:59:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1111 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/ed8a3cee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 12:26:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: My pdp-8 move this weekend... In-Reply-To: <199903200319.AA29109@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 19, 99 10:19:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/e2d74f87/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 12:58:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <36F3E327.B23E440C@epix.net> from "John Amirault" at Mar 20, 99 10:04:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/2d3235c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 12:33:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: LSI-11 question In-Reply-To: <36F32258.F78D7D41@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Mar 19, 99 11:21:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/ac6c0d26/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 13:34:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <001001be7308$a8518540$3e483cd1@fuj03> I've got to disagree on this one. From what I've observed the 100-pin card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." They sit right next to a box of connectors nearly the same size, which says on it, "Multibus Connectors, $4.95." They seldom have the 30-pair connectors used on the secondary connector for Multibus-I, nor do they often have the 31-pair or 18-pair connectors used on a PC backplane. Now, I didn't say I like the price, but there they are. I don't know of many parts which were used in these old products, with the notable exception of the UART (TMS 6011, AY5-1013, etc) which were popular back in the mid-1970's. They were mostly standard TTL, though, which, if replaced with the currently popular CMOS equivalent may suffer from the poor designs of yesteryear. Back then we were still learning about race conditions and setup and hold time violations, and the like. Back then, a circuit designed to operate from a 25 MHz clock was taxing the limits of the technology, while today, people don't even blink when the clocks are over 10 times that fast. Replacing the old "standard" TTL with the still-available LSTTL may prove hazardous because of timing changes as well, and some of the old tricks with capacitors as delay elements may not work properly either. There are plenty of problems. Getting the common TTL of that era won't be as easy as it was then, but it won't be a lot more difficult. Now that I know this rebirth is a possibility, I won't throw away any more of the old standard TTL or small memories, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research ><$1000. So even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bell > >Doing an Imsai would be expsnsive as finding the parts would be costly. >Many arent made or are such low volume (100pin connector for sure) that >it isn't going to be cheap. > >For example the backplane 18 slots (or was it 22) roughly 13"x18" two sided >in quantities of 100, I'd bet that would be a $100 right there. Even in the >S100 heyday $49 was cheap (no connectors or anything else). > >Allison > From gram at cnct.com Sat Mar 20 14:02:08 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199903201937.AA01152@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I'd say VMS is the best I've worked with as the base security is pretty > tight. It also has the less than common attribute. > > As a system it falls into my criteria: > > Stable mature systems I know how to use. As after six years is Linux for me. (The MICROS~1 drones can claim that Linux is an upstart, but it's really been in public use longer than NT, much longer than 95/98, with serious peer review of the source code -- I wonder how long NT sources could be examined with a straight face?). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Mar 20 14:22:29 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: decwriter III problem Message-ID: <199903202022.OAA14069@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I hooked up an decwriter III that hasnt been used in over 10 years. When I turn on teh power, every LED lights up, and the 4 digit display lights up to all 8's. The printhead doesnt return to the left. Any suggestions? -Lawrence LeMay From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 20 14:24:31 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. In-Reply-To: <9903201059.ZM23213@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 19, 16:29, Dean Billing wrote: > > Subject: Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system. > > > I have also been scanning all of the WEB sights that have information > about > > UCSD PASCAL and obsolete and disappeared computers and I find no > reference > > to Sage Computer Technology of Reno, NV. They made the Sage II/IV > systems > > that came with UCSD PASCAL installed. They were M-68000 based systems > and > > probably ran other operating systems too. Anybody remember them? > > If you mean what I think, I have two of them (Sage-II's). A Sage-II is a > cream-coloured box with dark grey front and rear panels. > > >From memory (they're stashed away somewhere) they're about 14" wide x 17" > deep x 3.5" high, with an 80-track half-height DSDD 5.25" floppy in the > front, and a power LED. On the back there's two serial ports, parallel > port, power connector and switch, and some other stuff (can't remember > what). Mine have 128K DRAM, of which 64K is directly accessible to the > p-System, and the rest is used as a RAM disk. One of the serial > linesconnects to a terminal (I have drivers for VT-100 and VT-52). > > If you want more details, I don't have any manuals (except the standard > p-System manuals) but I could dig one out and describe it more carefully > (ie, more accurately :-)). > > I've never seen another OS run on one, but if anyone has any other OS, I'd > be happy to try it out :-) > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > I have a 3-disk set of CP/M-68K for the Sage II/IV. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From jax at tvec.net Sat Mar 20 15:04:34 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Toshiba Mk134FA & Adaptec 2372B controller In-Reply-To: <01BE72C9.F3C29080.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990320150434.007a87e0@pop.tvec.net> Recieved these two items recently and have been unable to find info on the Toshiba MK134FA hard drive. The documentation for the controller card was available on Adaptec's web site, but zilch on the drive at Toshiba. Can anyone point me in the general direction? I think it's a 40 MB, 4 heads & 6XX cyl. Thanks. jax@tvec.net From max82 at surfree.com Sat Mar 20 15:08:18 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: >As after six years is Linux for me. (The MICROS~1 drones can claim >that Linux is an upstart, but it's really been in public use longer >than NT, much longer than 95/98, with serious peer review of the >source code -- I wonder how long NT sources could be examined with >a straight face?). You remember that thread about VMS engineers migrating to NT? Well, guess where I got it? An article alleging that NT is almost 30 years old simply because it had VMS engineers on its team and VMS is almost 30 years old. It was thusly alleging that UNIX and NT are of comparable maturity since UNIX is also 30 years old. Yes, I know it's BS but that's what some people actually think. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From steverob at hotoffice.com Sat Mar 20 15:30:08 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Pre-history of Digital Research References: <001001be7308$a8518540$3e483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <36F41360.B00B4CB6@hotoffice.com> Based on the proposed hardware descripition (Pentium MB, etc..), the "rebirth" of the IMSAI is completely off topic. Steve Robertson From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 20 15:32:22 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Toshiba Mk134FA & Adaptec 2372B controller In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990320150434.007a87e0@pop.tvec.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, jax wrote: > Recieved these two items recently and have been unable to find info on the > Toshiba MK134FA hard drive. The documentation for the controller card was > available on Adaptec's web site, but zilch on the drive at Toshiba. > > Can anyone point me in the general direction? > > I think it's a 40 MB, 4 heads & 6XX cyl. > > Thanks. > > > jax@tvec.net cap 44 intfc ST M spd 25 hds 7 cyl 733 spt 17 rwc 734 wfc 734 - don From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Mar 20 16:21:26 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: AIM65s available Message-ID: <00ba01be7320$4f587ee0$af3ffea9@office1> Hello, all: Well, it seems that my deal for a bunch of AIMs is finally coming through. I should have two extras available within the next two weeks from I guy that I know in NJ. Cost: $100 + S/H. Anyone interested should contact me off-list. Sorry, US shipments only. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 16:25:56 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <001401be7320$9fbd8ce0$78483cd1@fuj03> Yes, but what's not off topic is that they're planning to revive support, at least to the extent of providing documentation, etc, (on what basis, I don't know) for their whole product line, at least as it's available. This will be helpful to some, who still (rarely) use the old stuff, and to other who would like to but can't because they haven't got the required spec's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 2:35 PM Subject: OT: Pre-history of Digital Research >Based on the proposed hardware descripition (Pentium MB, etc..), the >"rebirth" of the IMSAI is completely off topic. > >Steve Robertson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 14:45:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research In-Reply-To: <001001be7308$a8518540$3e483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 20, 99 12:34:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1086 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/74bcc12d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 14:49:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: decwriter III problem In-Reply-To: <199903202022.OAA14069@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Mar 20, 99 02:22:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/1bef4074/attachment.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Sat Mar 20 16:41:30 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: A couple of books available Message-ID: <36F4241A.44310A3C@hotoffice.com> Stopped by the thrift store today and grabbed a handful of books. I don't have use for these so if anyone wants them, let me know. I'd like to get $1.oo plus postage for each of them. All are softcover in very good condition. 128 Internals - The Authoritative insiders' guide. 1985 Abacus software. Softcover 500 pages. This looks like a *great* resource for anyone interested in the COMMODORE 128. A Practical Guide to the TANDY 1000SX. Radio Shack, Spiral Bound, 350 ppg. This is the original manual that came with the system. WORDSTAR Made Easy - Osborne / McGraw Hill 1982, 160 PPG. A baisc users guide to the word processor. First Come, First Serve --- Steve Robertson From steverob at hotoffice.com Sat Mar 20 16:44:51 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Pre-history of Digital Research References: <001401be7320$9fbd8ce0$78483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <36F424E3.4BA18642@hotoffice.com> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Yes, but what's not off topic is that they're planning to revive support, at > least to the extent of providing documentation, etc, True, that part of the announcement is on topic and is certainly welcome news. Steve Robertson From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 16:51:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <000601be7324$25ad8be0$78483cd1@fuj03> That's truer today than it was 20-25 years ago. Much of what we saw on S-100 equipment was used not because, say a J-K flipflop pair was the best choice of devices, but because the boss had just bought a barrel full of the things as surplus and wanted them used. My concern in the previous post was over the performance of presently available components in old circuit boards. First, because they were often designed with the performance of the devices used figured into the timing equations, and secondly, because it no longer works to leave device inputs unconnected as was frequently the practice in the mid-late (Pre-LSTTL, Pre-HCMOS) -70's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research >> >> I've got to disagree on this one. From what I've observed the 100-pin >> card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they >> are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old >> connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store > >Sure, but you can't design something, certainly not something that's >going into production, based on parts you find in a surplus shop. > >You need to use parts that are in current production IMHO. I won't even >do one-off designs based on parts I've found surplus. I don't know I'll >be able to get parts to maintain it in the future. > > >> on the secondary connector for Multibus-I, nor do they often have the >> 31-pair or 18-pair connectors used on a PC backplane. Now, I didn't say I > >Odd... Those are available _new_ in the UK without much problem... > >Does anyone know of a source (UK prefereably) of 0.125" 44 pin doublesided >(22 pins on each side) connectors. No, I don't mean 0.156" ones. I >believe they fit the expansion connector on the HP9100, for example. > >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 20 16:55:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <199903202255.AA23430@world.std.com> References: <001401be7320$9fbd8ce0$78483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990320150535.009b8aa0@mcmanis.com> About every three weeks or so I kick around this idea of building a "new" classic computer. Lately my thoughts have been to build something with a loadable control store so that I could microprogram different instructions as I saw fit or was necessary. Of course the machine would have a front panel with switches and LEDs to indicate state. I then come to the question of "add in" boards. Ideally one would like to establish some sort of bus and make available a wide variety of add in boards that could be used to customize the system. Then there is cost, one would like to keep the cost at a minimum as well. So in the connector area I've been considering something "VME" like which would consist of two 50 pin right angle molex connectors and the "mainboard" would consist of 50 pin AMP sockets. These are pretty cheap because of SCSI and they should provide enough pins. (one could imagine three connectors for a total of 150 pins but that seems like overkill.) Unfortunately I think this is way off topic for this group. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 17:53:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <001a01be732c$faf70300$42483cd1@fuj03> I'm not so sure you're as far off-topic as you think. The connectors you mentioned were all "old" technology back in the mid '70's when MITS and IMSAI were pups. I'd submit that the DIN41612 connectors as used in VME bus cards and in Apple Macintosh's NuBus are inexpensive enough today that your can afford them. They're also 20 years old, as I was including them with my VME wire-wrap boards in 1981-82. IIRC, the first run (20 boards) cost about $19 per board for the connectors and mounting hardware. That's not much more than the then-popular S-100's would have cost for 2 of each gender. The notion of a front panel has often intrigued me, but recently I've thought of using it more as a bus monitor probe, perhaps with an ethernet connection to a PC and used for diagnosing functional anomalies. Instead of discrete logic, it would use one or two of the SCENIX -SX processors and drive the bus directly, loading memory and I/O features and storing the monitored information in local memory for transmission to the PC host. information could be displayed more effectively at the PC, but immediate readouts in the form of discrete LED's, bit for bit, could be driven as could HEX displays. The part I would view as important, however, is the diagnostic function. As for your loadable control store, I'd suggest you consider a mid-sized FPGA. These can be loaded from a local processor and the architecture changed at will, by reloading the device to suit the desired architecture. if pinouts don't work, there are electrically reprogrammable crosspoint switches routinely used every day, e.g. Lattice' GSX devices, to correct unresolved routing problems, and there you are. You could actually fashion your own processor right on your desk, but that really is off-topic. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 4:18 PM Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) >About every three weeks or so I kick around this idea of building a "new" >classic computer. Lately my thoughts have been to build something with a >loadable control store so that I could microprogram different instructions >as I saw fit or was necessary. Of course the machine would have a front >panel with switches and LEDs to indicate state. > >I then come to the question of "add in" boards. Ideally one would like to >establish some sort of bus and make available a wide variety of add in >boards that could be used to customize the system. > >Then there is cost, one would like to keep the cost at a minimum as well. > >So in the connector area I've been considering something "VME" like which >would consist of two 50 pin right angle molex connectors and the >"mainboard" would consist of 50 pin AMP sockets. These are pretty cheap >because of SCSI and they should provide enough pins. (one could imagine >three connectors for a total of 150 pins but that seems like overkill.) > >Unfortunately I think this is way off topic for this group. >--Chuck > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 18:11:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research Message-ID: <001d01be732f$6c657c40$42483cd1@fuj03> There were PLL devices I played with back then, e.g. Signetics 564, among others, which boasted 50 MHz operation, but standard TTL logic was spec'd at 20-25 MHz at the top end, frequency wise, and one had to use H-TTL or S-TTL to make your circuitry remain within specified limits. If you weren't into worst-case analysis, you might get away with operating a circuit outside those limits more often than not, but while the cases that worked might on occasion get you some praise or a bonus, the ones that didn't would absolutely get you fired. Back in those days, although the S-TTL ran some 50-75% faster, it cost well over double, if the function you needed was available. It often required that several parts be replaced with schottky parts to avoid races, as synchronous design was not yet as popular as it is today, and synchronous circuitry has to have everybody synchronized with the same clock, hence, able to function at the schottky rate which increased the cost even more. I'll stick with my earlier complaint, that the most annoying problems I saw back then were unconnected inputs and races, both of which became VERY troublesome when a substitution of either LS or, worse, HCMOS parts was made as the product matured. Often this required extensive redesign, frequently with the addition of pipeline registers to synchronize asynchronous events, which made for ugly reworks. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research > >While the parts werent fast and there were things to be aware of it wasn't >that backward. There were however sloppy designers doing sloppy designs. > >I did a PLL design, direct counting to 50mhz in 1973, that was near the >TTL upper limit but not that hard to do. Doing 25mhz plus logic in 1975 >was not unheard of and Mini makers were doing it but there were economic >issues in doing that not technical. > >The most common errors were lousy board layouts and weak ground planes. >the altair suffered from both severely. Another fault was many designers >were forgetting that backplanes and other busses were trnasmisstion lines >and needed to be terminated properly, again the altair was the worst going >from the front pannel to the bus with a bundle of wires the shortest near >6 inches long. Even at 2MHz this was sloppy practice. Looking at >contemporary DEC and DG backplanes for the time it was clear the design >techniques were known. > >Don't forget in 1989 (-10y) a PC running at 25mhz was the hottest thing >going. It would take another decade to get from 25 to 250+ as a mator of >routine for PCs but there were system going much faster than PCs in 1989. > > >Allison > From at258 at osfn.org Sat Mar 20 18:20:03 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > You remember that thread about VMS engineers migrating to NT? Well, guess > where I got it? An article alleging that NT is almost 30 years old simply > because it had VMS engineers on its team and VMS is almost 30 years old. > It was thusly alleging that UNIX and NT are of comparable maturity since > UNIX is also 30 years old. Yes, I know it's BS but that's what some people > actually think. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) People like that actually DESERVE Windows.... M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From bluoval at mindspring.com Sat Mar 20 18:43:12 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Toshiba Mk134FA & Adaptec 2372B controller References: <3.0.6.32.19990320150434.007a87e0@pop.tvec.net> Message-ID: <36F440A0.EC64E2EF@mindspring.com> Interface: ST-506/412 Capacity: 44.66MB Form Factor:3.5 Half-Hight MFM Write precompensation cylinder: 512 Physical heads: 7 physical cylinders: 733 physical sectors/track :17 jax wrote: > Recieved these two items recently and have been unable to find info on the > Toshiba MK134FA hard drive. The documentation for the controller card was > available on Adaptec's web site, but zilch on the drive at Toshiba. > > Can anyone point me in the general direction? > > I think it's a 40 MB, 4 heads & 6XX cyl. > > Thanks. > > jax@tvec.net From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Mar 20 21:18:07 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> If the ART chips that drive the serial ports are gone, they won't work no matter what it used to access them. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 ------///////// -----// // ----// ## ---// ////### --// //#### -/////////## ## -----------/ ## / ## / ## / ######## /-----------> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) >Jason wrote: > >> A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, > >I'm not a virus expert, but I am an experienced embedded systems programmer, >and have done some hardware design. That said, this claim sounds completely >ridiculous to me, on par with an urban legend. Care to explain this from a >electronics (or physics, or chemistry) point of view? > >> or just scrambling the code in the chip. > >In a flash BIOS, maybe, although that would be tend to be specific to a >certain motherboard. There's no general way to write a virus that can trash >the BIOS on any arbitrary motherboard, because unlike much of the >"PC standard", there is not a stanard for how the flash BIOS programming >works. Different motherboards use different types of flash chips that >have different programming requirements. > >I've never yet heard of a virus doing this, although I'll concede that it is >possible. Decent motherboards require you to physically move a jumper in >order to enable programming the BIOS, to prevent exactly this kind of problem. > >However, changing the BIOS such that the machine still booted but simply >didn't have INT 13 serial support wouldn't prevent all software from >using the serial port. Most software these days doesn't even bother to >go through the BIOS to access the ports, because (1) the BIOS interface >is incredibly lame, and (2) on some machines the BIOS functions don't even >work correctly. > >> (I know someone (Ironically, it's the sister of the person that did this >> to my computer), who's keyboard controller chip got scrambled. > >Sounds like a complete coincidence to me. Except for exotic (and fairly >expensive) keyboards, the firmware is in masked ROM inside a microcontroller, >and there is no way to modify it without physically replacing the chip. > >Eric > From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Mar 20 21:27:59 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Computers in Parallel Message-ID: <01be734a$d189dd80$648ea6d1@the-general> I'm certain that some other method other than Beowulf will be used for the Commodore project. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 ------///////// -----// // ----// ## ---// ////### --// //#### -/////////## ## -----------/ ## / ## / ## / ######## /-----------> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 2:48 AM Subject: Re: Computers in Parallel >>> I think you should do it. I have a batch of Mac IIfx and I may try a >>> parallel arrangement with them one of my friends told me about. >>> >>> As an experiment lots is to be learned from this. I don't however have any >>> plans to "use" it. >>> >>> For a start I suggest looking at some of the encryption cracking efforts. >> >>Well, I haven't heard of Beowulf being implemented under MacLinux. From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Mar 20 22:02:02 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye Message-ID: <01be734f$93b0ca00$648ea6d1@the-general> You know, this is exactly the reason that I left the last mailing list. I mention that I'm only 16 years old, and ask a simple opinion such as "what would you do if your computer was hacked into?", and I get stuff like this. John, don't you think you could have been tactful enough to either send this directly to Sellam or to me?? As for my "security reasons", the pictures were removed so that certain people would not see them. They were posted for exactly 45 minutes. If you feel that you need to see them, email me, and I'll gladly send them to you. As for those of you addressing a BIOS problem, you are wrong. First of all, I could no longer enter the CMOS setup- the computer would freeze. Secondly, I bought a new AMIBOIS chip at the computer show today, and installed it in the motherboard. Booted, reconfigured, re-ran Windows setup. No serial ports detected (yes, I am smart enough to enable them in the CMOS setup). Windows says that the secondary controller of the dual IDE controller is "not present or not working properly" - yes, it is enabled in the CMOS. Answer me this question, John -- How am I supposed to access the Internet with the modem unplugged? My computer can't be hacked into when I'm not on the Internet, so I really don't think that's going to be a feasible solution, is it? Same goes for the hold button. I will say once again that I do not have a Windows configuration problem, and if someone on the list feels like sending me a check for $1600 for a new computer, I'll gladly have it thrown off the top of the Empire State Building, provided that you pay the top Ebay list price and shipping for it. And with this, I take my classic computing questions elsewhere. Flame away.-- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 ------///////// -----// // ----// ## ---// ////### --// //#### -/////////## ## -----------/ ## / ## / ## / ######## /-----------> -----Original Message----- From: John Amirault To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:27 AM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) >Sellam, >If you read the RED words at the top of Jason's web page it says all the >pictures have been removed "FOR SECURITY REASONS". I for one do not know >what type of "SECURITY REASONS" he has, maybe he will enlighten us all. >I do know that my PENTIUM HAS THREE TYPES OF COMPUTERS IT CAN BE SET UP >AS 1. DESK TOP, 2.NETWORK SERVER(in my opinion not a good choice) 3. I >can't remember right now as I am on my 486 @ my girlfriends. If Jason is >using Windoze 98 or any OS he can check his MANUAL to find out about >security. When Jason is off line he can unplug his modem and NO ONE can >hack into his computer. Another thing you can do if you don't want to >keep plugging and unplugging is get a hold button from someplace like >"Radio Shack" and put it inline on your modem line and then when you >hang up push the button to place the computer on "hold", that is the >phone line is physically disconnected from the computer by a switch. > >Jason, please take this cordially as it is intended to HELP not to >chastise. I am sure there are many people out there that know much more >than I do about computers and I hope that they will share some knowledge >with you. > >John Amirault > >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: >> >> > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> > >Check out my website: >> > > >> > >http://members.tripod.com/general_1 >> > > >> > In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose >> > hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the >> > Empire State Building. >> >> I think what Jason may not have initially realized (and maybe still not >> yet even) is that his Windows system configuration files got screwed and >> therefore his serial ports are no longer accessible under windows. As far >> as I know, its impossible to physically damage a serial port through >> software unless you make it possible by building a device whose soul >> purpose is to electrically short pins on the serial port on command. And >> of course, no sane persson would go through the trouble. >> >> So all he really needs to do is probably go into the Cntrol Panel, select >> System, then go to ports, remove the old serial ports (if they are still >> there) then add them again. Or maybe let windows find them for you with >> the Add New Hardware icon. >> >> BTW, I checked out the web site but all the links are bad. They all end >> up at a Tripod "page not found" page. >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >> Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From Watzman at ibm.net Sat Mar 20 19:15:42 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Counting keystrokes Message-ID: <000701be7338$69475d40$10bb6420@barrysp2> Believe it or not, the most common use of keeping keystrokes was for employee evaluation. I remember weekly postings of graphs of "keystrokes/hour" in data entry and word processing departments, with a weekly "prize" [nominal value] for the "best" data entry operator of the week. This and similar productivity measurement measures were not uncommon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990320/f8d17806/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 20 19:19:50 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> (roblwill@usaor.net) References: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <19990321011950.1357.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jason Willgruber" wrote: > If the ART chips that drive the serial ports are gone, they won't work no > matter what it used to access them. What are "ART" chips? I've never heard of them, and apparently none of my serial ports have them. And if your serial ports do have ART chips, how is it that a software virus managed to remove them? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 19:10:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Mar 20, 99 07:18:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/a9f8ed2c/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 20 19:22:14 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Counting keystrokes In-Reply-To: <000701be7338$69475d40$10bb6420@barrysp2> (Watzman@ibm.net) References: <000701be7338$69475d40$10bb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <19990321012214.1366.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Believe it or not, the most common use of keeping keystrokes was for > employee evaluation. I remember weekly postings of graphs of > "keystrokes/hour" in data entry and word processing departments, with a > weekly "prize" [nominal value] for the "best" data entry operator of the > week. Does it matter *which* keystrokes they are? In particular, does backspace count? If a business activity doesn't have any better metric than keystrokes, is it even worth doing? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 20 21:27:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: HP 9000/340 Re: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: References: <36F3E327.B23E440C@epix.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990320212753.464fe498@intellistar.net> At 06:58 PM 3/20/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >have to understand that - I've got a Sun 3/260, an Apollo 425, an Apollo >3500, a Whitechapel MG1, bits of a Hitech 10, 4 PERQs, 5 HP9000/340s, Tony I just picked up several 340s but I can't find a monitor that will sync on them. Do you know what monitors they're supposed to use? Three of them have monochrome outputs and one has three BNC sockets and color output. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 19:15:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye In-Reply-To: <01be734f$93b0ca00$648ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Mar 20, 99 08:02:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/8de22946/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 20 19:18:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: HP 9000/340 Re: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990320212753.464fe498@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 20, 99 09:27:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 718 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/4b65ede2/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 20 21:41:26 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: HP 9000/340 Re: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990320212753.464fe498@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990320214126.464f03e2@intellistar.net> At 01:18 AM 3/21/99 +0000, you wrote: >> Tony I just picked up several 340s but I can't find a monitor that will >> sync on them. Do you know what monitors they're supposed to use? Three of >> them have monochrome outputs and one has three BNC sockets and color >> output. > >I only have colour machines, and alas I didn't get the monitors with >them. The place that were giving them away wanted to keep the monitors >(to use on Entria X-terminals, I believe). Well that's a clue anyway. I have a HP 35731 monochrome monitor I tried it and a PC type composite monitor on the monochrome ones but neither one of them would sync> > >I can't remember the scan rates (I did measure them once), but I remember >they're not normal (or at least not PC-like). > >I assume you know that you can set the DIP switch and use a serial >(HP-style) terminal with them. THere's a FAQ somewhere that explains >which switch to flip. Yeah, but I hate fooling with terminals. Joe > > >-tony > > From max82 at surfree.com Sat Mar 20 19:34:02 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >The problem is, I can't think of a single way to damage any UART chip by >programming it. I've read the data sheets for quite a lot of standard (and >obscure) serial chips and there is no way to damage them... For one thing, maybe Jason had a coincidental power surge? Certainly not impossible. One of my computers has a fried serial port because I was holding the mouse while wiping the screen with my hand. The static from the screen jumped right through to the serial port (at any rate, I saw a spark leaping from my finger to the mouse). --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From steverob at hotoffice.com Sat Mar 20 19:50:37 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye References: Message-ID: <36F4506D.9CABB89@hotoffice.com> Tony Duell wrote: > But isn't this one heck of a clue? Damage to serial ports can't affect > configuring the CMOS RAM AFAIK. But damage to the bios ROM itself could. Fankly, I don't buy any of it... My guess is he had some kinda hardware failure and the other kid from his school is trying to take credit for it. My advice: Get over it! BTW: If I knew how to hack a system and cause this kinda damage over an Internet connection, I'd be working for a secret government agency making milions. Certainly not wasting it on petty high school pranks. Steve Robertson From jax at tvec.net Sat Mar 20 20:42:02 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Ebay suspect? In-Reply-To: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990320204202.0080d820@pop.tvec.net> As a lurker on this list for many months, the general discussion revolving around Ebay is amusing in some respects. Those that are trying to make money from their collections are behind it. Those that are trying to make a monument are against it. Both views are valid but.... contradictory positions. So.... Which one of you hacked Ebay's site ? :) jax@tvec.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 20 20:48:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) Message-ID: <199903210248.AA18114@world.std.com> Message-ID: Talking to myself again... On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Doug Spence wrote: > I'm hoping that they'll let me take it home in pieces. I might go in to > buy it, and grab the motherboard and leave the rest of the hulk for later. > Later in the week I'll go back for the drives, etc. It can all be > disassembled with a single screwdriver, so I hope they let me do something > like that. Actually, because of the grounding wires which are connected with straight-blade screws, I'd need two screwdrivers to disassemble the machine. :) I went back on Tuesday to have a look, and I decided not to buy the machine. After some pleading I was finally allowed to have a look under the hood, and the machine has empty sockets in exactly the same places as the one I brought home, so either those sockets are supposed to be empty, or these AES machines had a common failure mode and parts were donated to keep something else alive. When powered up, the machine at the Salvation Army store exhibited the same behaviour as mine, too. Nothing on the screen, but the floppy drives would spin for about 40 seconds and stop. I wasn't able to check to see if the drive heads tried seeking. Mine don't. The only difference between the SA machine and the one I brough home is that the SA machine's keyboard connector isn't cracked, the SA machine is even dustier and grimier than mine, and the SA machine has only 128K instead of 192K on the motherboard. I think the video hardware must be kaput, _or_ it's not supposed to put anything on the screen until it boots up. In which case, maybe the disk drive is hosed because it doesn't seek. I have a drive in a Kaypro that's like that. I managed to swap the main video chip into the AES from an old display card for the IBM-PC (an HD46505SP form a Monograph Visionary card from Interface Technologies Inc.). No difference, except that this one seemed to run a little cooler. At least all of the parts in the AES 7100 seem to be common. No custom hardware to worry about. I just found out from my brother that one of his high school teachers used to work at AES Data Inc. as a programmer! So maybe I can locate him and find out more. If I'm lucky, he'll still have some disks, or know where I can find some. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 21:03:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990320150535.009b8aa0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > About every three weeks or so I kick around this idea of building a "new" > classic computer. Lately my thoughts have been to build something with a > loadable control store so that I could microprogram different instructions > as I saw fit or was necessary. Of course the machine would have a front > panel with switches and LEDs to indicate state. > > Unfortunately I think this is way off topic for this group. I don't think so. But we could have Doug create a new list called homebrew. Homebrewing is a lost pasttime for the most part. I want to bring it back, at least for myself. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 21:09:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > If the ART chips that drive the serial ports are gone, they won't work no > matter what it used to access them. So you're saying this guy came over to your place with a screwdriver and dykes and physically removed the UARTs from your PC? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Mar 20 21:38:29 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:13 2005 Subject: HP 9000/340 Re: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990320214126.464f03e2@intellistar.net> from Joe at "Mar 20, 1999 09:41:26 pm" Message-ID: <199903210338.VAA14255@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > At 01:18 AM 3/21/99 +0000, you wrote: > >> Tony I just picked up several 340s but I can't find a monitor that will > >> sync on them. Do you know what monitors they're supposed to use? Three of > >> them have monochrome outputs and one has three BNC sockets and color > >> output. > > > >I only have colour machines, and alas I didn't get the monitors with > >them. The place that were giving them away wanted to keep the monitors > >(to use on Entria X-terminals, I believe). > > Well that's a clue anyway. I have a HP 35731 monochrome monitor I tried > it and a PC type composite monitor on the monochrome ones but neither one > of them would sync> > > Entria X-terminals want sync on green (ie, 3 BNC connector monitor). PC monitors are separate sync (ie, 5bnc) whereas a Sun IPX wants composite sync (4 BNC). I've obtained HP A4032A monitors which are 5 BNC, and which were being used with entria X-terminals by connecting to only the 3 bnc connectors, and i've successfull used them with a PC with the appropriate 5bnc <-> HD15 cable, and with a Sun IPX using a 4bnc <-> 13W3 adapter. I think the A4032A's were also on the 2 HP computers we have in our department, i think they may have been HP 9000's of some model, but i'm not positive at the moment. -Lawrence LeMay From jax at tvec.net Sat Mar 20 22:02:05 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Ebay suspect? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990320204202.0080d820@pop.tvec.net> References: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990320220205.007aa960@pop.tvec.net> I might have been unnecessarily vague on this post, goto http://www.excite.com/computers_and_internet/tech_news/wired/?article=/news/ r/990320/00/net-ebay.inp the story is there. Fess up, which one of you guys did it ? At 08:42 PM 03/20/1999 -0600, I wrote: >As a lurker on this list for many months, the general discussion revolving >around Ebay is amusing in some respects. > >Those that are trying to make money from their collections are behind it. > >Those that are trying to make a monument are against it. > >Both views are valid but.... contradictory positions. > >So.... > > >Which one of you hacked Ebay's site ? :) > > > > jax@tvec.net > > > jax@tvec.net From dogas at leading.net Sat Mar 20 22:24:56 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? Message-ID: <01be7352$c6826760$c7c962cf@devlaptop> I have started restoring a swtpc 6800 and thought I'd ask for some comments on restoration journaling. I've completed as detailed an initial inventory as I can manage. I recorded the two busses on MP-B and some part numbers that were disappearing from memory chips( 4x9 819 MM5257 ) on SSB M-16-R, and transister( 18n9 ) from rectifier bridge. The soldering job on MP-A2 has alot of resin around connnections that I'm already pretty leary of. Ill start off by digging for all the hardware documentationI can find... First issue: Power system is missing the transformer. I do have the MP-P, the filter cap, and the rectifier bridge. I found a nice ad in Kilobaud issue #2 on the inside cover that gave values: 10amp, 25amp rectifier bridge, and 91000mfd computer grade filter cap. My nighttime reading this evening shall be "Building Power Supplies", Archer, cat 62-5025. ;) First question: The baud lines on both busses (110,150,300,600,1200) caugt my eye and that ad above states: "Crystal controlled oscillator( 1,7971 ) provides the clock signal for the processor (before?) and is divided down by the MC14411 (both on MP-A2 GK) to provide the various baud rate outputs for the interface circuts. Full buffering on all data and address busses..." Does that mean that all these cards are serial? Any switheads out there? Any thoughts on the forthcomming "This Old Computer" episode? It would be cool to accumulate these restoration reports and make some kind of open reference. I sure would find it usefull. (read that as alot of things to repair. :)) I imagine alot of you have encounters in repairland... It would be nice to have alot of this stuff in a prolog predicate database for pattern searches. - Mike: dogas@leading.net "I am but an egg" -VMS From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 20 22:42:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? In-Reply-To: <01be7352$c6826760$c7c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > Any switheads out there? Any thoughts on the forthcomming "This Old > Computer" episode? It would be cool to accumulate these restoration What? You aren't referring to a TV show, are you? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dogas at leading.net Sat Mar 20 22:41:04 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? Message-ID: <01be7355$073857e0$c7c962cf@devlaptop> Hey, I'd watch it.... -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:43 PM Subject: Re: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? >On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > >> Any switheads out there? Any thoughts on the forthcomming "This Old >> Computer" episode? It would be cool to accumulate these restoration > >What? You aren't referring to a TV show, are you? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 20 22:45:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye Message-ID: <001e01be7355$b12726a0$74483cd1@fuj03> A few posts back I remember this young man relying on MSD to figure out what he had. I personally have always found MSD to be worse than useless. If he's confused, that's why. As for the serial ports, the UART or maybe ART (also a valid acronymn, I guess, since they're hardly universal any more) these are normally recognized by means of the interrupt they return. If, let's assume, the plug-N-play was altered by enabling the control parameter in the CMOS ram, which allows this, then it might physically assign a different interrupt than previously. Possibly a new hardware device was installed. It then causes the firmware to reallocate resources, but perhaps not modify the tables, hence fail to recognize devices because it was not told to update the table. Now it doesn't get the correct interrupt from the serial ports, hence concludes the port is absent. Does that sound possible? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 6:29 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye >> As for those of you addressing a BIOS problem, you are wrong. First of all, >> I could no longer enter the CMOS setup- the computer would freeze. > >But isn't this one heck of a clue? Damage to serial ports can't affect >configuring the CMOS RAM AFAIK. But damage to the bios ROM itself could. >As could (in theory) misprogramming an address decoder.... > >> Secondly, I bought a new AMIBOIS chip at the computer show today, and >> installed it in the motherboard. Booted, reconfigured, re-ran Windows >> setup. No serial ports detected (yes, I am smart enough to enable them in >> the CMOS setup). Windows says that the secondary controller of the dual IDE >> controller is "not present or not working properly" - yes, it is enabled in >> the CMOS. > >Again, this looks like an address conflict or similar. > >Are the UARTs on the motherboard or an expansion card? Are they part of >some large ASIC, or do you have a chance to probe the chip select pin? > >That's what I would do if possible, btw. Trigger a logic analyser off the >CS/ pin and see what's on the address bus at the time. > >-tony > From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Mar 20 23:09:01 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903210505.AAA22034@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:34:02 -0500 (EST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Max Eskin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > >The problem is, I can't think of a single way to damage any UART chip by > >programming it. I've read the data sheets for quite a lot of standard > >(and obscure) serial chips and there is no way to damage them... Uh, uhuh... can anyone still their assummpations and endless debates about which OSes is good for a second? Some have good points but let's face this, some chipsets and CPU's can be blown by "overrevving" and been done before in rare cases. And that sounds like Jason might had it happen to him via backorifice infected system or similar methods. Too bad Jason's case is less certain because he erased the HD without a careful fine tooth thru it to find out how that came about. PnP on all the cards are modifiable plus the bios (PnP muddles with it by PnP bios and again by Win9x if configured improperly. Write protected jumper is really a bad joke only protects the boot area on bios, what worse, M$ decreed that no jumpers of certain items be used on current boards of last 2 years and future so it's wide open now. :-( That is true of boards out there currently without any hardware jumpers to protect the bios. > > For one thing, maybe Jason had a coincidental power surge? Certainly not > spark leaping from my finger to the mouse). That is another possible way to hose that chipset. Happened to me once on a beloved Asus 'TP4XEG board but I was able to swap the SMD I/O chip for another off a 5 dolllar junkyard board special. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > To Jason, try to avoid recontacting the "viruii" on your data stuff, remove everything, take your bios ic out and do the hot swap reflash on a known working system. Take the CMOS coin out, short the battery contacts and short all the chips with grounded blunt metallic object few times around and finally check that stupid PSU for -5V and -12V. Then put the coin back in, and a good bios, HD's and cards left out outside of computer system, power up and see if you can re-enable and test the serial/parallel ports. All Dallas style and clones based on this with internal battery backed IC requires PSU in place and CMOS clear jumper in place and blip on the power for 5 seconds then power off, pull the that jumper. to clear the CMOS contents. cih viruii is known to mess up the bios as well. BTW, what model of that system or what brand or model of that board that that has conked out i/o ports? Details please! Intel is infamous for using nonstandard NVRAM on many of their boards. :-( If you have any sick PnP cards, see if you can clear it out by resetting the settings or exhange them where you got those parts from. Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Mar 20 23:21:22 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye In-Reply-To: <001e01be7355$b12726a0$74483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <199903210517.AAA28621@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:45:48 -0700 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Richard Erlacher" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye Originally to: > A few posts back I remember this young man relying on MSD to figure out > what he had. I personally have always found MSD to be worse than useless. > If he's confused, that's why. Right, bin that MSD and line up your components in desired order to your preferences by RTFM those manuals and text docs that came with s/w drivers and using utilities in your win9x to set PnP settings and ideally, set any cards that supports jumpers. Start with no cards except for video card to clean out the PnP registers by clearing PnP in your bios screen. Decent boards should provide that or from a known clean, decent 3rd party utility. I had to battle with my PII to get 5 devices sharing one IRQ seperated, dumb win98! Ugh! Big snip! > Does that sound possible? That is not just "possible" it have happened from time to time when something got screwed up. And one bad motherboard turned up after putting good modem in. Modem in or out acted as turbo button on that motherboard. Weird. Wizard From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Mar 20 23:19:02 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 RSTS/E Tape ops. Message-ID: Let's see if a small classic computer question stands a chance against the Din of Dissension and the Cacophony of Contumely that swirls in Voracious Votices of Vitriolic Vituperation... but I digress. The Question: Given, a PDP 11/44 system with attached SMD drive and 9trk streamer drive, running under RSTS/e V9.7. No OS docs are availble. 'Help' is. I would like to be able to move files to and from the 9trk unit. The controller is a TM11 and the device is MS0:. I have spent some hours reading to 'help' files related to this operation. I am pretty sure the *hardware* is correct and functional. I have played with Init-ing, Allocate-ing, and Mount-ing and the using PIP to move files. It is likely PIP doesn't speak sequential file devices but I'm not sure. I am leery of experimenting with Backup and Restore until I know more about the subtleties of their operations. Thanks in Advance Cheers John From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 21 00:40:23 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: References: <36F35DC7.2884E382@rain.org> Message-ID: >You're missing the point. The mechanisms I am referring to are the way >the auction itself works. The reserve price, the automatic bidding >increase once the top bidder is bid against, and then there's the issue of >emotions and how they affect bidding in an auction. All these factors >contribute to the artificial inflation of prices. I disagree with your premise that the auction is artificial or unfair. What I don't understand is how you plan to stuff the genie back in the bottle. Ebay is here, and so are hundreds more smaller auction pages. Many people also use the eBay pricing to set their own prices, I know both store and individuals who do this as a regular practice. Like it or not, completed eBay auctions are the best reference I know of for fair market price. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 01:03:20 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >You're missing the point. The mechanisms I am referring to are the way > >the auction itself works. The reserve price, the automatic bidding > >increase once the top bidder is bid against, and then there's the issue of > >emotions and how they affect bidding in an auction. All these factors > >contribute to the artificial inflation of prices. > > I disagree with your premise that the auction is artificial or unfair. What Ok, you disagree with my premise. Care to provide any particular points of reason or do you just want to continue thinking that because it makes you feel better? > I don't understand is how you plan to stuff the genie back in the bottle. > Ebay is here, and so are hundreds more smaller auction pages. Many people > also use the eBay pricing to set their own prices, I know both store and > individuals who do this as a regular practice. Like it or not, completed > eBay auctions are the best reference I know of for fair market price. Which is exactly why I rail against ebay so much. If there's a price swing of $500 to $1000 on a particular item, with no real evaluation of the unit other than what the seller decides to describe about the unit, you call this fair market value? Let me know what stores base their prices on the highest auction amount they see on ebay so I can avoid them. If I walked into a surplus shop and saw an Altair with a $3,000 price tag I'd laugh. Ebay and the real market are two entirely disparate entities. Luckily the surplus shops I frequent in my area are still mostly sensible about how the junk that passes through their stuff is priced. Some more than others. But all in all, they don't attempt to use Ebay pricing to set their own prices. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Mar 21 01:43:22 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903210743.RAA17044@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 16:08 20/03/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: >You remember that thread about VMS engineers migrating to NT? Well, guess >where I got it? An article alleging that NT is almost 30 years old simply >because it had VMS engineers on its team and VMS is almost 30 years old. I know VMS is old, but it's not that old! Given that VAX hardware shipped to customers in 1978, I doubt that VMS is much more than 25 years old.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From joe at barrera.org Sat Mar 20 23:19:38 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Ebay suspect? References: <01be7349$70d0ede0$648ea6d1@the-general> <3.0.6.32.19990320220205.007aa960@pop.tvec.net> Message-ID: <000201be737d$335901d0$4001010a@joebargx1> > Fess up, which one of you guys did it ? You really expect whoever did it to admit it on a public list? As if. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Mar 20 22:33:32 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199903210935.EAA22122@smtp.interlog.com> On 20 Mar 99 at 21:56, Doug Spence wrote: > > Talking to myself again... > > > On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Doug Spence wrote: > > > I'm hoping that they'll let me take it home in pieces. I might go in to > > buy it, and grab the motherboard and leave the rest of the hulk for later. > > Later in the week I'll go back for the drives, etc. It can all be > > disassembled with a single screwdriver, so I hope they let me do something > > like that. > > Actually, because of the grounding wires which are connected with > straight-blade screws, I'd need two screwdrivers to disassemble the > machine. :) > > I went back on Tuesday to have a look, and I decided not to buy the > machine. After some pleading I was finally allowed to have a look under > the hood, and the machine has empty sockets in exactly the same places as > the one I brought home, so either those sockets are supposed to be empty, > or these AES machines had a common failure mode and parts were donated to > keep something else alive. > > When powered up, the machine at the Salvation Army store exhibited the > same behaviour as mine, too. Nothing on the screen, but the floppy drives > would spin for about 40 seconds and stop. > > I wasn't able to check to see if the drive heads tried seeking. Mine > don't. > > The only difference between the SA machine and the one I brough home is > that the SA machine's keyboard connector isn't cracked, the SA machine is > even dustier and grimier than mine, and the SA machine has only 128K > instead of 192K on the motherboard. > > I think the video hardware must be kaput, _or_ it's not supposed to put > anything on the screen until it boots up. In which case, maybe the disk > drive is hosed because it doesn't seek. I have a drive in a Kaypro that's > like that. > > I managed to swap the main video chip into the AES from an old display > card for the IBM-PC (an HD46505SP form a Monograph Visionary card from > Interface Technologies Inc.). No difference, except that this one seemed > to run a little cooler. > > At least all of the parts in the AES 7100 seem to be common. No custom > hardware to worry about. > > I just found out from my brother that one of his high school teachers used > to work at AES Data Inc. as a programmer! So maybe I can locate him and > find out more. If I'm lucky, he'll still have some disks, or know where I > can find some. > > -- > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > Hi Doug. Do you know if AES stands for Automatic Electronic Systems ? From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Mar 20 22:33:32 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Ebay suspect? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990320220205.007aa960@pop.tvec.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990320204202.0080d820@pop.tvec.net> Message-ID: <199903210935.EAA22133@smtp.interlog.com> On 20 Mar 99 at 22:02, jax wrote: > I might have been unnecessarily vague on this post, goto > > http://www.excite.com/computers_and_internet/tech_news/wired/?article=/news/ > r/990320/00/net-ebay.inp > > the story is there. > > Fess up, which one of you guys did it ? > > > At 08:42 PM 03/20/1999 -0600, I wrote: > >As a lurker on this list for many months, the general discussion revolving > >around Ebay is amusing in some respects. > > > >Those that are trying to make money from their collections are behind it. > > > >Those that are trying to make a monument are against it. > > > >Both views are valid but.... contradictory positions. > > > >So.... > > > > > >Which one of you hacked Ebay's site ? :) > > > > > > > > jax@tvec.net > > Now we know why Yowza's disappeared. :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 21 05:06:26 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <199903150033.BAA12125@main.it-watch.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Sysop Fox-1 wrote: > Last week I bought a pile of hard-sectored 5.25" disks. Most are used, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > but are still in their original plastic box. Most disks have a lable > saying: AES diskette, Single Sided, Single Density. ^^^ This paragraph leads me to two questions: Is there any relation between the manufacturer of these AES disks and AES Data Inc. of Montreal? AND Is there any easy way to tell if a disk drive expects hard-sectored disks? These two questions come together with my AES 7100 and its woes. Maybe the system is fine, but the drive head doesn't seek because the media type is wrong. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 08:00:11 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? Message-ID: <01be73a3$2328ea20$d4c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail >> Any switheads out there? Any thoughts on the forthcomming "This Old >> Computer" episode? It would be cool to accumulate these restoration > >What? You aren't referring to a TV show, are you? yeah... The Switheads ;) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 08:38:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? Message-ID: <199903211438.AA23275@world.std.com> On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:05:30 -0500, Steve Robertson wrote: >>The tenative price of $500 seems awfully high to me. After all, it's not >>like there is a lot of R&D involved, the components aren't exactly >>cutting-edge, and to some extent the markets are already established. I don't recall Fischer's Web site quoting a price. I applied the price of $500 to a currently-mythical 25th Anniversary Edition kit which was my $0.02. I don't know if $500 is the right number either, but I figure that in a "new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards, $100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life." Given what happens when the old IMSAIs hit ePay, I'd pay $500 for a new kit that I could build myself. I don't know if I'd want a Pentium-class IMSAI with a front panel for $1200. I guess it would depend on how faithfully it reproduced/simulated the operation of the original. I also don't know if another bus standard is necessary, too. Personally, I'd prefer a kit, and I think that $500-600 is not unreasonable. I'm sure that if you open this up to the hobbyest community, you'd find enough takers to make a 500-unit quantity production run feasable. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 21 08:59:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye In-Reply-To: <36F4506D.9CABB89@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > Fankly, I don't buy any of it... My guess is he had some kinda hardware > failure and the other kid from his school is trying to take credit for > it. > > My advice: Get over it! > > BTW: If I knew how to hack a system and cause this kinda damage over an > Internet connection, I'd be working for a secret government agency > making milions. Certainly not wasting it on petty high school pranks. Maybe the kid's building up his resume so he can do that. 8-)} -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 21 08:57:19 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Sellam's market In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990319234328.20ff4a7c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990321085719.00fd94e0@vpwisfirewall> Hey, sellam.com isn't taken. :-) - John From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 09:13:08 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? Message-ID: <01be73ad$53895c40$d4c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 9:39 AM Subject: Re: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? >Wash with alcohol, then put in dish washer to clean up the boards. Really? It seems like microscopic moleculer soap minutia or the drying cycle heat would try and hurt some of the ic's. >The bulk of the SWTP hardware was hand assembled so removing the resion was >often not done. > > >No! They had a common baud rate generation to avoid repeating a circut that >generally appears on every serial card. It was one way to reduce the cost Architected to accomodate many (just?) serial cards? >by elimintaing redundant circutry. the transfers were via 8bit dat and >16bit address plus a hand ful of control lines. It was compact hence the >name SS50 for the bus. What does the full buffering on all data and address busses mean? I think the TOP of MP-B is the most artistic layouts I've seen >Allison > > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net From wanderer at bos.nl Sun Mar 21 11:38:52 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Wanted & exchange References: <981219102542.2f000af6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <36F52EAC.1F3E@bos.nl> Hi All, For completing my 11/34 (11/40) setup, I am looking for the following cards: M7239 FIS Instruction set M7238 EIS Instruction set M7232 u word M7231 Data pahts M7233 Instruction Decode M7235 Status M7234 Timing M7236 MMU M7237 Also pointers to those who sell these boards are wellcome. I have the following cards for exchange: 1 complete DH11 (backplane, cards, dist. panel) # avail Type Board Description 1 6 G235 16K x 18 Sense 1 6 G114 16K x 18 X-Y driver 1 1 M105 Address selector 1 4 M792-YD Rom diode matrix 1 4 M792-YE Rom diode matrix 2 4 M1710 Wirewrap expirimentation board 1 4 M5913 LP/LS11 Long line driver 1 4 M5922 Massbuss Tranceiver Port A 1 2 M7227-E Plotter control 1 4 M7258 LP/LS11 Interface 1 2 M7259 Module parity 1 2 M7457 Data mixer (new in bag) 2 6 M7684 RM05 Massbuss Control sequencer 2 6 M7685 RM05 2 6 M7686 RM05 control interface 2 6 M7687 1 6 M7821 Fast M7820, Interrupt control 1 4 M7822 Programmable Sync. Interface 3 4 M7860 Single serial line 1 4 M7867 Sync. modem DUP-11 1 2 M7941 16 bit parallel line unit 2 2 M8043 DLV11-J 4 line peripheral interface 2 2 M8044CB LSI 16K mos memory 2 2 M8044CF LSI 16K mos memory 2 2 M8044DB LSI 32K mos memory 3 2 M8044 compat LSI 32K mos memory 2 2 M8047 LSI 16K mos memory + 2 async lines 1 6 M8100 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8101 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8102 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8103 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8104 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8105 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8106 11/45 cpu 1 6 M8107 11/45 cpu 1 4 M8108 KT11-C SSR 1 4 M8109 Timing generator 2 4 M8293 Timing & and Continuity 1 6 M8685 Data sequencer 3 2 M9400-YE LSI bus terminator 3 2 M9401 LSI mirror cable connector 2 2 W9512 LSI Wirewrap breadboard 1 Emulex (tape?) controller card (4 slots) Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From Watzman at ibm.net Sun Mar 21 09:50:14 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: "New" IMSAI Message-ID: <000701be73b2$843fcfe0$ccbb6420@barrysp2> You are never going to see a "new" IMSAI for $500. In the first place, many of the parts that would be needed for a complete system are no longer available. In the second place, the original IMSAI was not UL approved (or even safe, really) and could probably not be sold today. In the third place, the original IMSAI was not even close to meeting FCC Class A much less B. Finally, $500 would be cheap for a low-volume copy, regulatory issues aside. Do not be surprised when your unrealistic expectations are not realized. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/77f84bca/attachment.html From Watzman at ibm.net Sun Mar 21 10:08:03 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more [given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder ..... and I use the term bidder loosely, not necessarily to imply an auction type format]. The internet is having a huge impact on buying and selling because it is creating the most free and perfect market that ever existed. The definition of such a market is that every buyer knows of every seller, and vice versa; the sellers are able to find the buyer willing to pay the highest price, AND the buyers are able to find the sellers willing to sell for the lowest price. GROW UP ! You have no right to complain because someone else is willing to pay more than either you are willing to pay or than you think that the item is worth. In the latter case, someone else obviously disagrees with you, and IS willing to put their money where their mouth is. That said, I do feel that steps should be taken to INSURE that bidders complete their deals. If I were a seller, and someone bid $5,000 and then backed out, I'd seriously consider legal action to enforce specific performance. I believe that bids on E-Bay are legally enforceable, but in 90% of the cases, because of both the amount and the fact that the buyer and seller are probably in different states, it is just not practical to try and enforce it. However when the bids get into the thousands of dollars, the situation changes and it may become practical to seek a court order of specific performance. But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of "Bonded Buyers and Sellers", in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. A bonded seller could designate an auction as open only to bonded bidders, with the assurance on both sides that the transaction WOULD be completed and that items offered would be as described. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/1f10e34e/attachment.html From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 21 10:32:26 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Barry A. Watzman wrote: > But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of > "Bonded Buyers and Sellers", in which E-Bay has credit card numbers > from both buyer and seller, and both buyer and seller have agreed to > binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. A bonded seller could > designate an auction as open only to bonded bidders, with the > assurance on both sides that the transaction WOULD be completed and > that items offered would be as described. Actually, a fourth party arbitrator beholden to none of the above. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From emu at ecubics.com Sun Mar 21 10:32:00 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <19990321163106.AAA25214@1Cust24.tnt19.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: Sellam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:03 PM > > Unfortunately I think this is way off topic for this group. > I don't think so. But we could have Doug create a new list called > homebrew. Try the comp.arch.hobbyist newsgroup. It's moderated, and all this PC crap stays outside. > Homebrewing is a lost pasttime for the most part. I want to bring it > back, at least for myself. It's different now, you use different chips & environment. But now you can define your own cpu & peripherials, what is somekind of fun. cheers & have fun, emanuel From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 21 13:21:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Memorex Telex 2079 Color Display Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990321132158.2eb7d4ce@intellistar.net> I have a User's Manual and Quick Reference Guide for the 2079 terminal that needs a home. I'm going to pitch it if no one wants it. $5 plus shipping. Joe From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 21 11:30:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <004101be73c0$a221ed00$43483cd1@fuj03> Well, I'm with you on this one. Your remarks are right on the money. An item is worth exactly what someone will pay, no more, and no less. As I wrote before, I may see some of them as idiots, but idiots have a right to the market as much as any of us. If my hardware is worth more to someone else than it is to you, it is my responsibility to see that I get the benefit I feel I deserve. If I sell to you for $50 when someone else offers $500, the blame is on me for taking less than the highest offer, not on someone else for overbidding. You've undoubtedly read my comments about the low (70%) completion rate of eBay transactions. It is easy to agree that people should follow through when they offer the winning bid as opposed to what nearly one in three apparently does, which is to walk away, having ruined the auction by bidding out the more serious bidders, when there was no serious commitment to buy. Unfortunately the law is unclear as to the rights and obligations of the parties involved in this type of transaction. I've always felt that internet commerce needs to be handled in such a way as to share the risk, i.e. not require that one party take all the risk by, say, demanding the buyer pay in advance, using "good" funds (cash or certified) or that the seller ship in advance of payment. There are escrow agencies who support transactions of this type, and they can superficially verify that the package sent contains something other than a brick, but they can't be relied upon to verify that the condition of the package contents are as the seller advertised beyond superficial examination. How, then, could one improve on the 70% completion rate? The validity of the funds is easy enough to verify, but what about the merchandise? It would cost a fortune to verify that every item, be it a Ming Dynasty vase, or a memory card from an antique 8008-based computer is in the condition advertised by the seller. You'd have to engage a panel of experts. True, every item could be sold "as is" in order to avoid having to verify condition, but what about completeness and authenticity? The problem with "bonded" status for buyers and sellers, is that it essentially means that the organization becomes involved in the transaction. EBay manages to avoid this. The eBay auction does essentially nothing more than the misc.forsale.whatever newsgroups, except for the very thing that Sam Ismail has been complaining about, which is imposing a hysterical framework around what should be a sensible and orderly process. Now, I don't draw the same conclusions he does, nor do I believe people to be the "idiots" he finds them to be. I do see his viewpoint, but, like you, I disagree with his ultimate conclusions. EBay does charge the would-be seller a fee based on the final bid price and not on the actual selling price. It benefits them to have the prices as high as they will go. My belief on this matter is that the very thing which drives the prices up is also the thing that causes the high transaction failure rate. The various auction pages around the web stay out of the transaction in order to avoid liability for perceived misrepresentation on the part of the seller as well as failure of the buyer to make valid payment. That's the only position they can take in order to avoid this liability. The buyer is, indeed, offering to pay for an item, sight unseen, while the seller is offering to deliver the merchandise without any binding assurance that the funds will be forthcoming. How can you envision solving this dilemma? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Barry A. Watzman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 9:13 AM Subject: Seller's market The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more [given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder ..... and I use the term bidder loosely, not necessarily to imply an auction type format]. The internet is having a huge impact on buying and selling because it is creating the most free and perfect market that ever existed. The definition of such a market is that every buyer knows of every seller, and vice versa; the sellers are able to find the buyer willing to pay the highest price, AND the buyers are able to find the sellers willing to sell for the lowest price. GROW UP ! You have no right to complain because someone else is willing to pay more than either you are willing to pay or than you think that the item is worth. In the latter case, someone else obviously disagrees with you, and IS willing to put their money where their mouth is. That said, I do feel that steps should be taken to INSURE that bidders complete their deals. If I were a seller, and someone bid $5,000 and then backed out, I'd seriously consider legal action to enforce specific performance. I believe that bids on E-Bay are legally enforceable, but in 90% of the cases, because of both the amount and the fact that the buyer and seller are probably in different states, it is just not practical to try and enforce it. However when the bids get into the thousands of dollars, the situation changes and it may become practical to seek a court order of specific performance. But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of "Bonded Buyers and Sellers", in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. A bonded seller could designate an auction as open only to bonded bidders, with the assurance on both sides that the transaction WOULD be completed and that items offered would be as described. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/4027e9c2/attachment.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 12:19:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: <199903210935.EAA22122@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Would stand to reason AES would be a Canadian company. Dorsey now heads > Voice and Data Systems. A major player in packet technology. Sounds like a > minor version of Corel's Cowpland. Yes Virginia ,Canada does have a computer > aristochracy. I'm also wondering if there was any relationship to the MCM-90 > that alledgedly pressured IBM into producing the PC by cutting into their > insurance company market. Wow, someone else who's heard this information. But as I was told, it was the MCM-70, which was a "portable" computer with integrated CRT, keyboard and tape drive, and APL in ROM that got IBM worried about a competitor muscling in on its business, so they answered with the 5100. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 12:24:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <00b001be73a9$8c6be0e0$af3ffea9@office1> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > I don't know if $500 is the right number either, but I figure that in a > "new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards, > $100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front > panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane > connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account > for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life." $500 is a bit optimistic. I think the materials alone would cost that much (metal, PCBs, connectors, power supply elements, etc). > Personally, I'd prefer a kit, and I think that $500-600 is not > unreasonable. I'm sure that if you open this up to the hobbyest community, > you'd find enough takers to make a 500-unit quantity production run > feasable. Only in sufficient quantity, but remember this was about the price of a new kit in 1976 (ok, maybe a bit higher), and therefore inflation would dictate a much higher cost these days. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Mar 21 12:34:06 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: <00b001be73a9$8c6be0e0$af3ffea9@office1> Message-ID: I'd be more inclined to just build a facade, a control panel with switches and lights, but all connected to a standard PC I/O subsystem and run hardware emulation in software on the PC. It would make a perfect low cost, low maintainence hands on display for a museum type place. I guess a vintage control panel could also be used too, to make the "collectors" happy. From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 12:26:47 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <01be73c8$6141aca0$d5c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail >Only in sufficient quantity, but remember this was about the price of a >new kit in 1976 (ok, maybe a bit higher), and therefore inflation would >dictate a much higher cost these days. that's accelerating inflation if todays cosmologists are on the right track.. ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Mar 21 12:52:41 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Date and Time in RT-11 and RSX-11 Message-ID: <36F53FF9.D8C27381@idirect.com> I am looking for a very simple explanation as to how the date and time are handled in RSX-11? Just a short description which is parallel to what is here about RT-11. In RT-11, the date and time are two very separate quantities. There is no interaction between the two except: (a) When the user requests the time, the size of the time value is checked to see if it exceeds "24 hours" (b) If the time exceeds "24 hours", the time is reduced by "24 hours" and the date is incremented by ONE day, the algorithm dependent on if the SYSGEN has rollover for end of month (and after 31-Dec-99) included or not. The DATE command accepts dates from 01-Jan-73, although the date of 01-Jan-72 is displayed correctly in the DIR utility. For non-Y2K versions of RT-11 (V5.6 and prior), the DATE command accepts and displays dates up to 31-Dec-99. For Y2K versions of RT-11 (V5.7), the DATE command accepts and displays dates up to 31-Dec-2099. The DATE value is kept in a location within the resident monitor and may be requested by any program via a .DATE request. The USR tags a newly created file with the current DATE value (whatever quantity is in the DATE value - no checking is done), otherwise, the DATE is not used or manipulated by the operating system (except as noted in b above) and the DATE command. Other than the utilities (DIR, PIP, etc.) which look at the DATE and especially look at the creation date of a file (which is not actually looking at the actual date - but the DATE value at the time when the file was created), RT-11 does not care about or use the DATE in any manner and the operating system is totally independent of the quantity in the DATE value and unaffected by that quantity. I guess that changing the creation date of a file via PIP to be the current DATE value via the SET option in PIP is an exception, but no different than what happens when the USR creates a files and uses the current DATE value as the creation date. There could be application programs set up by the user which do more than simply display or set the DATE value. DATIME.SAV only does what the DATE command does, but a program executing as a system job could do much more. In general, I want to ignore such possibilities in both RT-11 and RSX-11. One other very minor aspect. In RT-11, the LTC is used to increment the time at either 50 or 60 Hertz. The time value is available to the user in ticks. An RT-11 program can request certain time based operations in terms of the number of ticks. Does RSX-11 have similar types of things available? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 12:58:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Barry A. Watzman wrote: > The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not > understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. Ok, let's hear your definition then so that we know how to evaluate the rest of your message. > The internet is having a huge impact on buying and selling because it > is creating the most free and perfect market that ever existed. The > definition of such a market is that every buyer knows of every seller, > and vice versa; the sellers are able to find the buyer willing to pay > the highest price, AND the buyers are able to find the sellers willing > to sell for the lowest price. You know, if this were the case I'd have no argument. But we are talking about ebay, not the internet at large. There is a big difference in how stuff is priced and sold on the internet versus ebay, where price inflation is encouraged. You first need to think about how the ebay auction format results in higher than reasonable prices (since you seem to have ignored all the arguments I've made to this point) and then see if that matches your model of a "free and perfect market". And please explain how a market can be "free and perfect" when there's an intermediary in between the buyer and seller collecting a transaction fee based on how high the item that the seller sells to the buyer is priced? > That said, I do feel that steps should be taken to INSURE that bidders > complete their deals. If I were a seller, and someone bid $5,000 and > then backed out, I'd seriously consider legal action to enforce > specific performance. I believe that bids on E-Bay are legally > enforceable, but in 90% of the cases, because of both the amount and > the fact that the buyer and seller are probably in different states, > it is just not practical to try and enforce it. However when the bids > get into the thousands of dollars, the situation changes and it may > become practical to seek a court order of specific performance. Yes, a "free and PERFECT" market. > But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of > "Bonded Buyers and Sellers", in which E-Bay has credit card numbers > from both buyer and seller, and both buyer and seller have agreed to > binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. A bonded seller could > designate an auction as open only to bonded bidders, with the > assurance on both sides that the transaction WOULD be completed and > that items offered would be as described. You'd still have over-bidding and inflationary mechanisms in place. No matter what you recommend to "improve" ebay, as long as the basic auction format they now have stays in place, as long as there is an intermediary to encourage undue price inflation, it will remain a lopsided "free" market. Barry, I know you buy a lot of stuff from eBay, and therefore must not feel the prices are absurd. I don't know how long you've been collecting computers, or if you even started collecting until after you discovered ebay. But most people who have considered this their hobby for more than at least 3 years know that what something sells for on ebay is ridiculous compared to what its really worth. Think of it this way: if a toy stuffed with beans that cost a couple dollars to manufacture were to be made for sale in a way which makes people perceive a scarcity, and that toy was then subsequently priced up to $1000 because of dealers and price speculators feeding on the perceived scarcity of that toy, is it really worth $1000? Don't answer that yet. Now fast forward a couple years in time and the market runs its course, people are fed up with this toy and don't care about it anymore. The fad is over, the bottom of the market drops out, and the last sorry asshole to pay $1000 for a toy stuffed with beans is left holding an item worth maybe $50 to the person who still hasn't caught on that it was all just an irrational frenzy to begin with. You've been warned. :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 21 13:30:30 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <00b001be73a9$8c6be0e0$af3ffea9@office1> Message-ID: <4.1.19990321112744.00a6f7f0@mcmanis.com> > I don't know if I'd want a Pentium-class > IMSAI with a front panel for $1200. It occurs to me that you could do an IMSAI _simulator_ on a 486 motherboard (cheap as dirt these days) mounted in a case with a "real" IMSAI front panel where you hook the simulator to via a couple of parallel ports. Z80EMU runs at the speed of a 6MHz z80 on my 486 laptop so its certainly doable. If you put the simulator in rom on an ISA card with DOS-on-disk technology you could do the how thing for about $200. :-) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:11:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199903210248.AA18114@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 20, 99 09:48:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1238 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/fb6b6707/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:14:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 20, 99 09:56:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/b3bf9204/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:18:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: HP 9000/340 Re: Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <199903210338.VAA14255@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Mar 20, 99 09:38:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 988 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/06f9ffa9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:26:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? In-Reply-To: <01be7352$c6826760$c7c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Mar 20, 99 11:24:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/ee20c807/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:33:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye In-Reply-To: <001e01be7355$b12726a0$74483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 20, 99 09:45:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/dcbde012/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:36:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199903210743.RAA17044@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Mar 21, 99 06:43:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/37abaf6a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 11:39:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 21, 99 06:06:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/32679613/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 21 14:25:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye Message-ID: <000a01be73d8$e89ebd40$62483cd1@fuj03> What the BIOS does, in this case, isn't relevant, though that should work, I guess. It's what M$ did in MSD and Windows that matters, since that's what's getting confused. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye >> As for the serial ports, the UART or maybe ART (also a valid acronymn, I > >You know, I've heard of (and used) UARTs, USRTs, USARTs, ACIAs, ACEs >(Async Communcation Element, I think, which it what Intel called the >8250). Never ARTs... > >> guess, since they're hardly universal any more) these are normally >> recognized by means of the interrupt they return. If, let's assume, the > >Well, the PC/AT simply looks at the Interrupt ID registers of the UARTs at >$3FA and $2FA. If it gets the right value back, it assumes the UART >exists. I've just checked the BIOS source listing (section TEST2) > >Of course modern BIOSs probably do something totally different, but without >the source listing it's impossible to be sure. > >-tony > From mark_k at iname.com Sun Mar 21 14:29:17 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: Sony 650MB Magneto-Optical drive Message-ID: Hi, Yesterday I bought an old Sony SMO-S501-11 external SCSI 650MB magneto-optical drive. This takes 5.25" double-sided 600MB or 650MB disks; it came with 15 600MB disks. There are some things which hopefully someone on classiccmp will know about, or at least know where to point me. The drive works, at least partly. I think the lens may need cleaning, since sometimes it does not recognise disks; this is using freshly-cleaned disks. Does anyone have a spare 5.25" MO head cleaning disk? Or a cleaning kit for 5.25" MO disks themselves? (But see below, the real fault may be temperature-related.) I got the drive working on my Amiga, and also an (emulated) Macintosh. Does anyone have the driver software for MS-DOS PCs that would have come with this drive? This is necessary to allow 650MB disks to be used under MS-DOS (650MB disks use 1024-byte sectors). When the drive refuses to work, inserting a disk results in: - Drive spins up - A click sound about every two seconds for about ten times - Drive spins down. This repeats twice, after which the drive reports: Sense Key : Not Ready (0x02) Add. SenseCode : Logical Unit Not Ready, Cause not Reportable (0x04) I'll describe a little about the drive itself. It was made in March 1990. It is SCSI-1, and old MO drives were much slower than current ones; according to the manual, the drive has a read speed of 680K/sec with an average seek time of 95ms. Spindle speed is 2400rpm. Interestingly, the actual mechanism does not seem to be SCSI. It is attached to a SCSI controller inside the case. The drive mechanism part number is SMO-D501-99. It uses two card-edge connectors, one 34 way the other 20 way. Is this EDSI or something??? On the SCSI controller PCB is one firmware EPROM, whose label reads: C501-00 CCP-2.11 ? SONY '88 '89 On (one of) the mechanism's PCBs are three EPROMs, whose labels read: D501 D501 D501-00 MMP-32 MDP-21 DCP-83 ? SONY '88 '89 ? SONY '88 '89 ? SONY '88 '89 I tried to dump the data from all four EPROMs. Three seem okay, but the DCP-83 one gave errors. If this EPROM is marginal/bad, that may explain the problems I have been having getting disks to be recognised -- it seems that immediately after powering up the drive from cold, disks can be recognised, but after it has warmed up the drive is much more picky. Do bad EPROMs usually behave like this, or is it more likely to be some other component? If anyone has one of these drives, and has dumped the DCP-83 EPROM, or knows where I might get hold of an image of this EPROM, please let me know. I would also like to get hold of the OEM manual(s) for this drive. On a related subject, I want to get hold of disk geometry information for various types of MO disk for a FAQ that I'm writing. For example, 600MB 5.25" disks have 576999 sectors of 512 bytes. 640MB 3.5" disks have 310352 sectors of 2048 bytes. I need this info for all other types of 5.25" MO disks. -- Mark From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 14:37:36 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? Message-ID: <01be73da$a7f700c0$d3c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 2:44 PM Subject: Re: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? >> First issue: Power system is missing the transformer. I do have the MP-P, >> the filter cap, and the rectifier bridge. > >MP-P? (Power supply) it's the fused board that I'm guessing puts the power on the buss. >> >> I found a nice ad in Kilobaud issue #2 on the inside cover that gave values: >> 10amp, 25amp rectifier bridge, and 91000mfd computer grade filter cap. My >> nighttime reading this evening shall be "Building Power Supplies", Archer, >> cat 62-5025. ;) > >>From those components, I think it must be a linear PSU (or at least a >mains frequency transformer). > >What secondary voltages do you need? What currents? The transformer T1 from specs lists at: 7.25vac @10amp and 24vac @0.5amp secondary 120 vac@1amp/240 vac@0.5amp primary, power transformer. >One way to work those out is to determine what voltages you need across >the smoothing caps and then divide by sqrt(2). For the currents, multiply >the maximum load current by sqrt(2) and add a bit for safety. > >Now work out the total power (sum of current*voltage of course). That'll >give you an idea of the VA rating of the transformer you need. I will spend some time to more understand those last two paragraphs... >The transformer might be a standard part, or it might have been custom. >If the latter, in the UK you can get 'transformer kits' - core + bobbin >with pre-wound mains primary. You wind the appropriate secondaries (the >kit instructions tell you how many turns you need for 1V output) and >assemble the core laminations. I'd definately buy one if still in production but I definately want to make a power supply (probably for the sym *if* that one can also not be bought. ;) >> First question: The baud lines on both busses (110,150,300,600,1200) caugt >> my eye and that ad above states: "Crystal controlled oscillator( 1,7971 ) >> provides the clock signal for the processor (before?) and is divided down by >> the MC14411 (both on MP-A2 GK) to provide the various baud rate outputs for >> the interface circuts. Full buffering on all data and address busses..." >> Does that mean that all these cards are serial? > >I doubt it. More likely they just bussed some useful clock frequencies >over the backplane. Then all the serial cards (using 6850s?) could use >them for the baud rate clocks. Saves putting a crystal + divider on each >serial port card. > >> reports and make some kind of open reference. I sure would find it usefull. >> (read that as alot of things to repair. :)) I imagine alot of you have >> encounters in repairland... It would be nice to have alot of this stuff in > >I seem to get ever more things to repair... (and not all of them are >classic computers...) i would imagine. ;) >> a prolog predicate database for pattern searches. > >-tony > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 21 15:11:17 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:14 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question In-Reply-To: References: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990321130733.00a53100@mcmanis.com> Would someone with a PDP-11 configuration guide describe for me what I need to do to populate my PDP-11/23 chassis? Here are the questions, the Chassis has a 9 x 4 Q-bus and is about 6" tall, says PDP-11/23 on the front and has a few switches (3) and a display. 1) What is the designation for this chassis? (BA11?) 2) Looking at it from the back, what boards should be where? (I will have a CPU, memory, serial interface, BDV11, RX02 interface and RL01 interface. 3) Are "bus grants" required on this system as well? 4) Would an RQDX1 work in this system? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 16:03:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 21, 99 10:34:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/daa77e1c/attachment.ksh From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Mar 21 14:17:16 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? In-Reply-To: References: <01be7352$c6826760$c7c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990321141716.25871af8@earthlink.net> At 05:26 PM 3/21/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> First issue: Power system is missing the transformer. I do have the MP-P, >> the filter cap, and the rectifier bridge. > >MP-P? >> I found a nice ad in Kilobaud issue #2 on the inside cover that gave values: >> 10amp, 25amp rectifier bridge, and 91000mfd computer grade filter cap. My >> nighttime reading this evening shall be "Building Power Supplies", Archer, >> cat 62-5025. ;) > >>From those components, I think it must be a linear PSU (or at least a >mains frequency transformer). > >What secondary voltages do you need? What currents? > >Now work out the total power (sum of current*voltage of course). That'll >give you an idea of the VA rating of the transformer you need. From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 16:27:06 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <01be73e9$f3cfab00$d3c962cf@devlaptop> Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with *some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel experience. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 17:20:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <199903212320.AA04955@world.std.com> <> Homebrewing is a lost pasttime for the most part. I want to bring it <> back, at least for myself. < from "Mike" at Mar 21, 99 03:37:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/22b77d0b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 16:19:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)/goodbye In-Reply-To: <000a01be73d8$e89ebd40$62483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 21, 99 01:25:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990321/232adaae/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 17:35:49 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question References: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <199903212335.AA19313@world.std.com> >Here are the questions, the Chassis has a 9 x 4 Q-bus and is about 6" >tall, says PDP-11/23 on the front and has a few switches (3) and a >display. >1) What is the designation for this chassis? (BA11?) From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Mar 21 17:38:09 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? In-Reply-To: References: <01be73da$a7f700c0$d3c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <4.1.19990321183429.009ab8b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:31 PM 3/21/99 +0000, Tony Duell said something like: -- snip -- > >Does anybody know if you can get the 'transformer kits' in the States? >The ones we get over here do have dual primaries (which can be connected >for 120V or 240V), so they could be used across the Pond. Tony, what is the cost and approx. weight of one of these 100VA-size kits? What is the vendor contact info? Maybe the vendor would ship to USA (I could imagine he's setup to ship to the rest of the EC.) This has gotten *me* interested as I've personally not heard of and tranformer kits sourced over here. Thanks for the help. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Mar 21 17:41:25 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: FREE: Vic-20 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Message-ID: Been cleaning out the basement and I found a Vic-20 in sort of dirty dusty condition, operation status unknown. It does not have a power supply. I'll give it to someone on the list for the cost of shipping, which I don't expect would go over $7.50. If you're interested, let me know. Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 17:39:17 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <01be73f4$09146aa0$e8c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent >Actually while that is true you far from limited to that. I'm building a >Z280 system, the parts of which were found from old PC motherboards and disk >controllers. A little torch work to remove them or their sockets netted >Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to >start with. Cool... Can I have a copy of your assembly documentation? Thanks - Mike From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Mar 21 17:54:13 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <000801be73f6$1ff74380$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Oh boy I'm getting in the eBay discussion. I must be really bored. I've been using eBay for a few years now and here's how I deal with it: When I find an "object" of interest, I set a limit as to what I'm willing to pay for it. If the item goes beyond that, I STOP. There is no overinflating prices because I got pissed for being outbid, it's just that someone else is willing to pay more and so be it (I'm cheap). But so far I got some items that I have not seen anywhere else and believe me I search... On another side I once found an item that I had no (read NO) interest in and I had to pay $1 for it to get it because it came with a bucnh of stuff I wanted. I placed it on eBay and got $150 fo it (double of what I paid fo the whole deal of stuff I wanted: about five computers and accessories) I felt sorry for the guy who bought it but I'm sure that he was happy with his purchase (I actually send an extra something with it out of guilt). Now where am I doing something wrong? What would be the ideal system? How can you at the same time make peolple happy and optimize your return? I'm a hobbyist, I don't speculate on value of computers but I want to be able to: 1) Find computers that were not popular in my area and are almost impossible to find. 2) Be able to get at least what I paid for when I sell an item (I prefer trade though). 3) When I find something on the net, have at least a chance to get it if I really really want it. Francois From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 21 18:47:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question In-Reply-To: <199903212335.AA19313@world.std.com> References: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990321164642.00a97ca0@mcmanis.com> At 06:35 PM 3/21/99 -0500, Megan wrote: >Depends on the actual backplane... you could have a 9x4 q18/q, a >9x4 q18/cd, a 9x4 Q22/Q22 or a 9x4 Q22/CD. We'd need to know the >H-number off the backplane itself. The backplane is marked H9273 and the powersupply is H786 And that makes it? Thanks Megan, hope you didn't throw out your back this weekend! --Chuck From jruschme at exit109.com Sun Mar 21 18:40:17 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <01be73e9$f3cfab00$d3c962cf@devlaptop> from Mike at "Mar 21, 99 05:27:06 pm" Message-ID: <199903220040.TAA29959@crobin.home.org> > Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro > styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with > *some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel > experience. To me, that seems the best compromise between the extremes in this discussion. Design a state-of-the-art S-100/IEEE-696 box and cardset (Z-80 based) including an FDD controller which could use a standard 3.5" drive, offer the whole thing as a kit with bundled CP/M (or clone). Sort of like the difference between a concours restoration of a Shelby Cobra and one of the Cobra kits. <<>> From fpp at concentric.net Sun Mar 21 18:44:43 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: FREE: Vic-20 Message-ID: <001401be73fd$2e48ddc0$c2faadce@paul> Wow, I have always wanted a vic30. If you still have it I'd love it. I have several Apple IIc if youd like one. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 18:19:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990321141716.25871af8@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Mar 21, 99 02:17:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/463f01af/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 18:22:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <01be73e9$f3cfab00$d3c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Mar 21, 99 05:27:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 771 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/915a2dbe/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Mar 21 13:44:31 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: References: <199903210935.EAA22122@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199903220046.TAA13119@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Mar 99 at 10:19, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > Would stand to reason AES would be a Canadian company. Dorsey now heads > > Voice and Data Systems. A major player in packet technology. Sounds like a > > minor version of Corel's Cowpland. Yes Virginia ,Canada does have a computer > > aristochracy. I'm also wondering if there was any relationship to the MCM-90 > > that alledgedly pressured IBM into producing the PC by cutting into their > > insurance company market. > > Wow, someone else who's heard this information. But as I was told, it was > the MCM-70, which was a "portable" computer with integrated CRT, keyboard > and tape drive, and APL in ROM that got IBM worried about a competitor > muscling in on its business, so they answered with the 5100. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Actually, I'm referring to a quote from you about this. We may be starting a whole new genre of "retrogressive vapor-ware" :^)) The name however sounds suspiciously similiar to the MICOM 2000 and Dorsey would have been one of the few up here at the time with the smarts and money to have started up a venture such as that. He had started and sold his share of AES in March 75 and started MICOM. Sales the first year were in the order of $2 million. Might be worthwhile to check him out at V&DS. A possible speaker at Vintage 99 ? I wonder if Kevin Stumpf has any info on this ? Kevin ?? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 18:49:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: <199903220046.TAA13119@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Actually, I'm referring to a quote from you about this. We may be starting a > whole new genre of "retrogressive vapor-ware" :^)) Oh :) > in the order of $2 million. Might be worthwhile to check him out at > V&DS. A possible speaker at Vintage 99 ? I wonder if Kevin Stumpf has > any info on this ? Kevin ?? Sure, he'd probably have a good story to tell. Is he in the States these days, ideally in California? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Mar 21 19:07:34 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <001401be7400$5f70c2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> I guess what we need is a definite authoritative price list for classic computers like the becket for baseball cards or the blue book for cars etc. This could be a collective or individual effort. Any takers? Francois. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 19:08:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: <001401be7400$5f70c2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Francois wrote: > I guess what we need is a definite authoritative price list for classic > computers like the becket for baseball cards or the blue book for cars etc. > This could be a collective or individual effort. > Any takers? I'm all for that. In fact the idea has been discussed on numerous previous occasions. Its a needed resource, that's for sure. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 21 19:18:08 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >it was correct if motor car museums had modern engines in all the >exhibits? Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do besides make a replacement out of custom chips? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 21 19:28:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: H11 vs H11A ? Message-ID: <4.1.19990321172736.00a54370@mcmanis.com> Heathkit folks, What does the "LTC" switch do on an H11A ? Which is more common? (H11 or H11A) Can an H11 be "upgraded" to an H11A? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 18:55:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: SWTPc 6800, common format (sharable?) repair journal? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321183429.009ab8b0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Mar 21, 99 06:38:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/a2163a46/attachment.ksh From cbajpai at mediaone.net Sun Mar 21 19:26:45 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001be7403$0c4f4c80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> This weekend I bought someones entire Commodore Collection. The reason I bought the collection was they were unwilling to break it up, so I've got to find homes for most of these machines. (I only am keeping one) - 1 Commodore SuperPET - 10 CPUs: Commodore 8032, 4032, 4016 - 1 Spare part machine, 2 extra motherboards, ROMs etc. - 8 Disk Drives: 4040, 8050 and quite a few 8250s (I didn't know these existed) - Commodore printers + one daisy wheel - Commodore Test diskettes, repair schematics + procedures (including some stuff that never made it to the market) - Lots of manuals...even an original 1976 MOS Technology 6502 programming manual in as new condition! - Lots of software (even some SuperPet stuff) - Compute magazine from 1980-1983 in as new condition - Commodore PET Literature This stuff came out of school computer labs and some stuff when Commodore Canada shut down. All the machines seem to work OK...pretty good shape for being close to 20 years old. Need some TLC...they have various school names in marker on the side. So I need to find homes for these PCs....they are taking up a lot of room in my basement. I'm need to sell them...This list gets first crack at them...I'll consider interesting trades too... My overall want list: NeXT, KIM-1, A working S-100 and/or CP/M System, Lisa, Tesla coil, telescopes, night vision gear, GPS, Oscilloscope, Lotus Esprit SE, Robotics items, or anything other interesting items. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Mar 21 19:32:44 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: FREE: Vic-20 In-Reply-To: <001401be73fd$2e48ddc0$c2faadce@paul> Message-ID: >Wow, I have always wanted a vic30. If you still have it I'd love it. I have >several Apple IIc if youd like one. No thanks. Trying to reduce the amount of stuff. =-) Since you're the first to ask for it, it's yours. If you want it, send a check for $7.50 to Anthony Clifton 407 E. Porter Avenue Des Moines, Iowa 50315 and I'll ship it out to you by the fastest route that costs $7.50 or less. =) Thanks! Also, send me your shipping address for USPS shipping. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Mar 21 19:40:37 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Victory! (was: seller's market) Message-ID: <199903220140.UAA08368@platy.cs.unc.edu> On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 Sellam Ismail wrote: ] On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: ] > >emotions and how they affect bidding in an auction. All these factors ] > >contribute to the artificial inflation of prices. ] > I disagree with your premise that the auction is artificial or unfair. What ] Ok, you disagree with my premise. Care to provide any particular points ] ] > I don't understand is how you plan to stuff the genie back in the bottle. ] Which is exactly why I rail against ebay so much. If there's a price Crap. This is an easy topic to ramble on about. I just deleted a five page reply. No point in that; truth shouldn't be so hard to express. Now I've re-written it, and it is only 4.9 pages. :-) E-bay is just an open market, with all the same benefits and flaws. With Altairs and IMSAIs, we're seeing scarcity combined with ignorance. Marketers hype it up, of course, the few available units go to the highest bidders, of course, those bidders are not always veteran computer geeks, of course, and they can get overexcited and pay too much, of course. The shops that sell stuff at less-than-ebay prices are doing so out of ignorance. If you don't believe it, point them at e-bay, and wait. We've enjoyed garage-sale prices for a long time, but now there is growing public awareness of this stuff's value. (Due at least in part to our own efforts!) You didn't expect the world to say "Gee, this stuff is great! Lets sell it cheaper than ever!" Did you? With public awareness has to come higher prices, as well as people who are in it just for money, ready to exploit any weakness in any buyer. Think of it as a partial victory. People are paying attention, and no longer throwing away this stuff just because it is old. The next step has to be (more) education: it is not just Altairs and IMSAIs that are valuable. And they are not valuable just because of scarcity, but also because they are a snapshot of history, and because they are fun to use, play with, and experiment on. Now how do we get the word out?... Maybe some kind of high-publicity annual event, like an "Old Computer Faire", or "Retro Computer Bash", or.. Hey, I've got it, "Vintage Computer Festival!" Yeah! That's the perfect title! Part of the publicity could be to increase the public's awareness of more than just the monetary aspect of the machines, and make them see that Altairs and IMSAIs were just two instances in a horde of other equally-valuable machines. Maybe highlight the coolness of other particular classic machines, including some that are less scarce. Overall, prices are still likely to go up, but at least the going rate for each machine might be more in-line with its value relative to other machines, instead of "Altair/IMSAI 1, others 0". Finally, point out that current super-high prices are a fluke, because while there is no flood of these machines, there is a constant dribble; so smart buyers will wait, prices will drop, and early buyers will be left holding the bag. Of course, if you want prices to go back down to garage-sale levels, then you should instead give away (not sell!) your collection, sit quietly, and deride anyone who shows any interest in anything older than this year's Wintel. It won't succeed all the way, of course, but it might lower prices a little. So, what's the vote? Do we want lower prices, or public awareness? Cheers, Bill. From tomowad at earthlink.net Sun Mar 21 19:51:02 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Database of old computers? Message-ID: <199903220149.RAA18779@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I just purchased a Poqet PC and am working on cataloging all my computers on it so I'll have a list on hand when I go to the hamfests. Of course, I have a pretty good idea what computers are in my collection. What I really need is a database of the machines that _aren't_. Thomas Haddock's "A Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" is an excellent reference. It gives the computers specifications, date of introduction, and a brief description of the unit. ? Usually enough information to determine if the computer is worth the purchase. Are there any references similiar to Haddock's available electronically? I'd really hate to have to retype Haddock's entire book just so I can carry it around with me... Tom Owad From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Mar 21 19:54:46 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: FREE: Vic-20 In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990308185924.00973700@mail.intersurf.com> Message-ID: Sorry about the unintentional post to the list. Just a reminder to folks to make sure you reply privately to Forsale, Auction, For Trade postings. Other folks on the list may not be interested in the details of transactions. Again, my apologies. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 20:08:51 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 question References: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <199903220208.AA04275@world.std.com> >The backplane is marked H9273 and the powersupply is H786 >And that makes it? If configured for 115Vac and 60hz, it is a BA11-NC. Otherwise a BA11-ND Backplane is Q18/CD. You could replace it with an H9275 to get Q22/CD, or do the upgrade yourself. >Thanks Megan, hope you didn't throw out your back this weekend! Actually, due to various very annoying reasons, the move did not happen this weekend... A person who planned on helping came up sick, and I was unable to get the truck I had reserved... The new move date is next sunday... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 20:12:03 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: H11 vs H11A ? Message-ID: <199903220212.AA08235@world.std.com> >What does the "LTC" switch do on an H11A ? Which is more common? (H11 or >H11A) Can an H11 be "upgraded" to an H11A? If it is anything like the LTC switch on a BA11-M or BA11-N, it enables or disables the Line Time Clock... I can't answer about H11 v. H11A Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 21 20:07:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <005401be7408$af012200$5e483cd1@fuj03> Unfortunately, the adoption of the IEEE696 standard was more or less, the cause of its demise. Whereas pre-696 board makers went to great lengths to make their products work with a range of CPU's, memory, FDC's, HDC's, I/O cards, etc, after the standard was adopted, these manufacturers used the standard as an excuse to ignore the others in the industry and the result was that interoperability suffered. If you want a current-generation computer with a useful front-panel display, you have to synthesize a single-step operation and dump the internals of the processor to the display hardware. Too much of the operation is packed inside the processor IC. If it's the front-panel you're after, and if you don't mind that the front panel needs to be shielded to meet FCC standards, as does the cabling you'll need, else you'll knock out all the broadcast TV reception in your neighborhood. Once that happens you'll have that ugly FCC van parked across your driveway. . . If you're bent on having an S-100 bus, it would work better to use an 8080 than a Z-80, as the S-100 signals were designed around an 8080. Most of the logic found on typical Z-80 cards for the S-100 is to regenerate those awkward and not terribly useful signals which Intel, Zilog, and others spent megabucks to eliminate so they'd be there to make the S-100 go. In this one respect, and recognizing the fact that hindsight is always 20-20, I'd say that Multibus-I was designed a lot better for general purpose computing. If you're really interested in running a "clever/new" S-100, you might try building a pod with which to emulate the 8080 processor from your PC. Old Intel documents will provide the desired timing, and I don't really think you need too fast a PC to emulate the old 8080 in real time. Writing the code to interpret the 8080 code correctly and produce the appropriate signal flow will show you definitely understand the workingsof the processor. You can even build a virtual front panel on your PC's CRT. Additionlly, you can run a window of "Hyperterminal" to support your need for a terminal with which to talk to the S-100 box as a console. I just took a look to see what I've got that would be interesting to integrate into a system on one of the big S-100 cardcages I've been hoping someone would take away. I must've hit my head . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro >> styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with >> *some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel >> experience. > >To me, that seems the best compromise between the extremes in this discussion. >Design a state-of-the-art S-100/IEEE-696 box and cardset (Z-80 based) >including an FDD controller which could use a standard 3.5" drive, offer >the whole thing as a kit with bundled CP/M (or clone). > >Sort of like the difference between a concours restoration of a Shelby >Cobra and one of the Cobra kits. > ><<>> From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Mar 21 20:22:57 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: <001001be7308$a8518540$3e483cd1@fuj03>; from Richard Erlacher on Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:34:22PM -0700 References: <001001be7308$a8518540$3e483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <19990322052257.20331@firepower> On Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:34:22PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From what I've observed the 100-pin > card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they > are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old > connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store > has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." And Douglas Electronics still sells S-100 prototyping boards: -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Mar 21 20:35:18 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321112744.00a6f7f0@mcmanis.com> References: <00b001be73a9$8c6be0e0$af3ffea9@office1> Message-ID: <199903220235.MAA22338@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:30 21/03/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >It occurs to me that you could do an IMSAI _simulator_ on a 486 motherboard >(cheap as dirt these days) mounted in a case with a "real" IMSAI front >panel where you hook the simulator to via a couple of parallel ports. >Z80EMU runs at the speed of a 6MHz z80 on my 486 laptop so its certainly >doable. If you put the simulator in rom on an ISA card with DOS-on-disk >technology you could do the how thing for about $200. :-) Well, if you use something like http://wearables.stanford.edu/ then you could hang the front panel display on the wall :-) Without the front panel, you'd certainly have one of the world's smallest CP/M systems.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Mar 21 20:39:11 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <199903220040.TAA29959@crobin.home.org> References: <01be73e9$f3cfab00$d3c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <199903220239.MAA22105@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 19:40 21/03/99 -0500, John Ruschmeyer wrote: >To me, that seems the best compromise between the extremes in this discussion. >Design a state-of-the-art S-100/IEEE-696 box and cardset (Z-80 based) >including an FDD controller which could use a standard 3.5" drive, offer >the whole thing as a kit with bundled CP/M (or clone). Add some sort of hard disk controller too please! >Sort of like the difference between a concours restoration of a Shelby >Cobra and one of the Cobra kits. Nice analogy! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 20:46:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <199903220246.AA02547@world.std.com> <>Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to <>start with. < from "Max Eskin" at Mar 21, 99 08:18:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1568 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/00524dbd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 21 19:30:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: H11 vs H11A ? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321172736.00a54370@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 21, 99 05:28:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/b7b3d67e/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 21 20:59:04 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <01be740f$f1da4e60$c4c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 9:47 PM Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) ><>Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to ><>start with. >< > >Why, It's going to be a single copy wirewrap. The bulk of the docs will be >a print set to work from, maybe a wire list and software. I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 21 21:10:54 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Database of old computers? References: <199903220149.RAA18779@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <36F5B4BE.2B0D5015@rain.org> Tom Owad wrote: > > Of course, I have a pretty good idea what computers are in my collection. What I really need is a database of the machines that _aren't_. Thomas Haddock's "A Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" is an excellent reference. It gives the computers specifications, date of introduction, and a brief description of the unit. ‹ Usually enough information to determine if the computer is worth the purchase. When I first heard of Haddock's book, I was excited to finally find something with classic microcomputer information. As I started looking through the book to find computers I had in my collection, there were quite a few that I have that are not listed. Just a heads up to be aware that quite a number of classic computers are not listed in his book. It is, however, almost a required book for anyone interested in classic computers. Something else I have not seen is a reference to cover mini-computers. Granted there were far fewer manufactures, but it would still be nice to have a reference for them. The most complete list I have seen is The Comprehensive Computer Catalogue at http://www.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/. I would consider it almost indespensible for anyone out looking for computers! What it lacks in depth is more than made up by breadth. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 21 21:17:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: S-100 prototyping boards Message-ID: <000601be7412$8cfa4d80$55483cd1@fuj03> Actually, I used to sell an original wirewrap board which has a colander ground and power plane and a 0.100" matrix of plated through holes. That was how all my wirewrap boards were configured, so I could use whatever dip, pin-grid array, or idc connector I wanted without concerning myself with whether it would fit. Of course, back in the S-100 days one didn't have to worry about the off-grid connectors like the DA-15 or the DB25. These boards had dry-film solder mask so you could use bare-wire point-to-point wiring for layout sensitive analog circuitry, keeping it close to the low-impedance ground or Vcc plane without fear of soldering to that plane. I'll have to see if I can still find those old films. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sergey Svishchev To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: S-100 prototyping boards >On Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:34:22PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> From what I've observed the 100-pin >> card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they >> are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old >> connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store >> has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." > >And Douglas Electronics still sells S-100 prototyping boards: > > > >-- >Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 21 21:21:41 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: 11/44 9trk tape help Message-ID: Hello List! I am not having much luck trying to figure out how to use the 9trk tape device on my PDP 11/44 system. The 11/44 has a big Fuji SMD as DB0:, a TU58 I have no tape for, and either a Cipher 880 or a Kennedy 9100. The controller is a TE11 and the unit is MA0:. For purposes of this question I have hooked up the Kennedy... mainly so I can *watch* it run. ;} The OS is RSTS/E V9.7. I have no RSTS docs at all... a year ago I gave them to the guy I got this system from. :< (Hi Bruce!) I have spent some hours going over the 'help' docs, but I have no experience with 1/2" tape other than the other Cipher on my uVax II under VMS, which, notwithstanding having some doc and a lot of patient help from a number of folk, I couldn't get to copy foreign files (RT11 <-> VMS). I would just like to be able to copy files to and from the disk, and to load files from the other tapes. I have played with Initializing, Allocating, and Mounting... but I'm missing something. I have been trying to use PIP to move files, but it's been suggested that PIP don't speak Tape... I dunno. Can someone who has done this just give me the outline of how to use the 9trk? I have been reluctant so far to use the BACKUP and RESTORE facilities because I don't know any possible gotchas involved. Maybe if I can get this HD backed up to tape then I'll feel safer mucking about. Thanks in advance!! Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 21 21:29:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <002901be7414$25e0a5c0$55483cd1@fuj03> What might make sense here is to replace the 8080 + surrounding logic with an FPGA which talks directly (or maybe with buffering) to the S-100 bus. With the right FPGA, you'd need no status latches, no bus buffers, just the FPGA. If you use your imagination, you could even make it download the FPGA from your PC, which would also serve as the console. That way if you wanted to run it as an 8080 one day and a 6502 the next, that wouldn't be unrealistic. It might even be conceivable to do this with a SCENIX SX in the 52-pin version. You need a few pins for overhead to operate the SX, plus the 40 less the supply connections for the emulated processor. If you write your code so it operates the S-100 directly, you don't have much to worry about. The skew between port updates is negligible next to what the original part had, and you can, of course synchronize the signals by latching them at the bus interface. Now, I don't know whether I would want to do this, but as you can see . . . the possibilities are virtually endless. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> >> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >> >it was correct if motor car museums had modern engines in all the >> >exhibits? >> >> Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If >> there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do >> besides make a replacement out of custom chips? > >That's one reason for prefering machines made from simple, standard chips :-) > >But seriously, what you _should_ do is make a replacement. Start from >the data sheet and implement it using (say) an FPGA. Document the fact >that it's in no sense original, of course, and keep the blown chip >(preferably inside the machine). > >Yes, that's a lot of work. > >However, I don't think we're talking about that. On several occasions >recently I've been asked about making a video 'recording' (either on >video tape or, more likely, on a PC) and then playing it back to a modern >monitor hidden inside the case of a classic monitor. This was to go on >show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation. > >I was not at all amused. If I (as a small private collector) can keep >these machines running then a museum certainly should. In fact that >should be their primary aim (or possibly to keep the machines in perfect >physical condition, all original parts, but certainly not to display >fakes). If they don't have somebody who can do that, they should employ >somebody... > >It appears that some museums only care about the most trivial level of >appearance of their computers and not one bit about what's inside... > >-tony > From erd at infinet.com Sun Mar 21 21:47:35 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? In-Reply-To: <000001be7403$0c4f4c80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> from "Chandra Bajpai" at Mar 21, 99 08:26:45 pm Message-ID: <199903220347.WAA23886@user1.infinet.com> > > > This weekend I bought someones entire Commodore Collection. The reason I > bought the collection was they were unwilling to break it up, so I've got to > find homes for most of these machines. > - 1 Commodore SuperPET > - 10 CPUs: Commodore 8032, 4032, 4016 > - 1 Spare part machine, 2 extra motherboards, ROMs etc. Where are you? I'm interested in the parts (it I can't get a whole PET cheap). ROMs I have (in abundance); motherboards and non-working units are welcome (I have the C= service manuals). > - Lots of software (even some SuperPet stuff) The SuperPET software especially needs to make its way to ftp.funet.fi. I can convert and upload the software if necessary. > My overall want list: > NeXT Hmm.... I _do_ have a 25Mhz NeXT slab (CPU, monitor, keyboard, mouse, no RAM or HD). I had been planning on keeping it in the event that someday I ran across an OS CD, but I must say that I am not really using it. It might be available for trade if it came to that. -ethan From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 21 21:49:34 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <199903220246.AA02656@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >Th real clone question is, does one copy all of the faults and bugs or >does one clean it up so that it's reliable in function? Without doubt, it would be interesting to do both. Of course, it would be easier to do the former, but perhaps the latter might useful for technical computer education. Imagine an ad in a magazine for a tech school displaying a smiling guy with a diploma, a wintel machine, a multimeter, dozens of software packages, and...a NeoAltair! --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 21 21:51:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <199903220351.AA04834@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >monitor hidden inside the case of a classic monitor. This was to go on >show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation. Although I would object to destroying a classic monitor, this seems ok to me. Nobody would think that this was the actual machine running, no videotape can be that good. Of course, a real machine would be better. But then, what do you do with a real machine? You can't have people use it, because that would destroy it. Nobody would be interested in sitting and watching somebody flip switches to demonstrate how it was used. So the only solution is to have it sit and collect dust. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Mar 21 21:55:35 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? In-Reply-To: <199903220347.WAA23886@user1.infinet.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 21, 1999 10:47:35 pm" Message-ID: <199903220355.VAA14610@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Hmm.... I _do_ have a 25Mhz NeXT slab (CPU, monitor, keyboard, mouse, no > RAM or HD). I had been planning on keeping it in the event that someday > I ran across an OS CD, but I must say that I am not really using it. It > might be available for trade if it came to that. > Hmm, what is required to duplicate an OS disk for an old NeXT cube? If memory serves, they used some sort of optical disk. Are those still avaiable for a reasonable price,and is duplicating a boot disk fairly straightforward? I know we still have one NeXT at work, though I think someone claimed it from the junk pile last summer... and I know I saw what looked like a boot cartridge... Its probably a very old version of the OS though. -Lawrence LeMay From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 21 22:04:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >monitor hidden inside the case of a classic monitor. This was to go on > >show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation. > > Although I would object to destroying a classic monitor, this seems ok to > me. Nobody would think that this was the actual machine running, no > videotape can be that good. Of course, a real machine would be better. But > then, what do you do with a real machine? You can't have people use it, > because that would destroy it. Nobody would be interested in sitting and What do you mean "You can't have people use it, because that would destroy it"? Its going to decay into a pile of dust anyway. You may as well give people the opportunity to experience it first hand while its still possible. In ther very least, have it running with some software that demonstrates some of its capabilities. > watching somebody flip switches to demonstrate how it was used. So the > only solution is to have it sit and collect dust. Such a negative thinker. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From fpp at concentric.net Sun Mar 21 23:47:32 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: FREE: Vic-20 Message-ID: <004001be7427$7bfedf40$90f3adce@paul> Outstanding, the money is on its way in the morning, Thanks again. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 21 23:48:51 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:15 2005 Subject: 11/44 9trk help Update Message-ID: Well... never underestimate the efficacy of cursing loudly and throwing random things. I have discovered that the 11/44 te11 does not play well with the Cipher 880, tho I could make it do everything but actually read and write. I have discovered that there is a certain amount of 'connector ambiguity' as per usually with DEC stuff... the proper orientations were of course the last ones I tried, after mis-reading the pin numbers on the Pertec formatter twice. And wahoo! I can PIP files to and fro, and, scenes from my childhood computer dreams... I can watch the reels turning and incrementing. Too much fun! Thanks to all who have responded privately and I'm looking forward to more info here on The List or by e-mail. NOW: I have some DECUS tapes I would like to explore, but they are archived in .DSK format. I can run RT11 from within RSTS okay, but I have no idea how to un-do a .DSK. Any Help from someone here? And what a wonderful roar all this stuff makes... Cheers John From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Mar 21 23:47:58 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Victory! (was: seller's market) Message-ID: <19990321.234814.98.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I can summarize this whole affair in four statements: 1. Awareness goes up, causing commercialization of an otherwise 'user-friendly' hobby 2. Prices go up, shafting the poor guy who got into this because it was a fun and inexpensive passtime. 3. These guys leave because the hobby is no longer inexpensive. 4. The {vultures|speculators} take over and pick the {carcass|hobby} clean. It may be just 'nature' but it is still an ugly sight, and it pisses me off. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 00:57:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? Message-ID: <4.1.19990321224921.00af1cc0@mcmanis.com> This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: 23046E 23045E 2 7907 7907 I'm guessing 7907 is the date code. Then it has two switches on the top (S1, S2) (large paddles), a dip switch that has 8 positions and another dip switch with 5 position. (I'm guessing this is CSR and Vector) Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 22 01:15:29 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321224921.00af1cc0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: > >Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either >an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... I just checked the diagram I did up a while back up on how my /23 is layed out. Based on what my /23, which was a complete system, has in it, I think you've got a RL01/02 boot ROM there. I don't know if it will do anything else. BTW, have you looked in the hardware directory of the Sunsite (metalab) archive? I seem to recall that a bunch of the Micronotes detail this kind of stuff. I've probably got at least some documentation on this board around here somewhere, but it's to late to look tonite. Let me know if you need any specific info and I'll try to dig it up. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Mar 22 01:50:25 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think the video hardware must be kaput, _or_ it's not supposed to put > > anything on the screen until it boots up. In which case, maybe the disk > > drive is hosed because it doesn't seek. I have a drive in a Kaypro that's > > like that. > > Alternatively it might be waiting for the disk to become ready > (especially if it's expecting a hard sectored disk, it could be waiting > for sector and index pulses). Argh! Would this affect the lights on the front of the drives at all? The motors start spinning soon after the machine is powered up, but the drive lights don't come on. Is the drive light activity for standard drives always the same, relative to motor and/or head activity? (Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not, but I don't have time to check with all of my machines right now.) BTW, the 'Argh!' above is only because I don't have any hard-sectored disks at all. I've never had a machine that needed any, though I've always wanted a Northstar Advantage (I used to drool over them in a local shopping mall when I was a kid, but I was afraid to touch one). > Or the bootstrap might start by reading something off track 0. Apart from > the initial restore, you'd not see head movement until you gave it a > bootable disk. I was counting on it seeking to track 0, actually. I moved the head myself and was hoping it would do something when I powered the thing up. If the thing is waiting for sector pulses, I'll have to give it some somehow... It'd be nice if it'd give some kind of startup message before the drives are running, though. > -tony -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Mar 22 01:58:04 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is there any easy way to tell if a disk drive expects hard-sectored disks? > Is there a recognisable FDC chip (Intel 8272, NEC 765, Western Digital > 177x, 179x, 279x, etc) on the board? If so, it's going to expect > soft-sectored disks. Assuming it would be a largeish chip (at least 24 pins), none of the ones you mentioned are present. Nothing from Intel, NEC, or WD at all. There's an "AMI S2350P", and an "AMI S1062P", and an "AM9517A-4PC", an "SY2128-1", a "FERRANTI ZN 1066E", three PIO chips, two CTC chips, a Z80, and a Hitachi HD46505SP. Oh, and three ROMs or EPROMs. All the rest is small-fry stuff. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 22 06:45:02 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? Message-ID: <19990322124502.11277.rocketmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Hmm.... I _do_ have a 25Mhz NeXT slab > > Hmm, what is required to duplicate an OS disk for an old NeXT cube? If > memory serves, they used some sort of optical disk. NeXT cubes did ship with an optical disk. I have a slab. It has room inside for a 3.5" SCSI disk and has a 2.88Mb floppy for removable media. It is monochrome and otherwise resembles (from point of view of the software that runs on it) a faster version of the cube. I haven't seen a cube up close since they first came out. Perhaps people wanted to find out if the case really was made of magnesium and set them on fire? :-) -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 22 06:59:21 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: berman? Message-ID: <008a01be7463$cdbdb9a0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their website just dead or.... Jay West From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 22 08:55:37 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: HP HP-IB tape drives available Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990322085537.303f5524@intellistar.net> I have some extra HP tape drives if anyone wants one. I have one HP 9145 32 track drive and several HP 9144 16 track drives. All use the HP-IB interface. The use the DC-600 size tape but require that you use HP tapes since that have to be preformatted. I do not have any extra tapes, you'll have to find your own. I have tested the drives and they all work fine. Contact me by private E-mail if interested. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 22 09:08:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: HP external disk drives available Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990322090805.303ff90e@intellistar.net> I have the following extra Hewlett Packard external floppy drives for sale: HP 9121D, 9122D, 9123D, 9122C and one each 9121S and 9122S. The 9121 uses single sided drives, the 9122 and 9123 use double sided drives, the 9122C uses HD double sided drives. The D models all have two drives. The S models have only one drive. The S models are very rare, I've only seen three of them in several years of HP collecting. The 9123 is exactly the same as a 9122 except that it has no built-in AC power supply. It's intended for use with the HP 150 TouchScreen II and gets it's power from it. I also have some external HP hard disk drives available, mostly 9153Cs, 9133Ds, and a few HP 7958s. Most have BASIC or Pascal for the HP 9000 200 or 300 series computers installed on them. All the drives have the standard HP-IB interface. Contact me by private E-mail if you're interested. Joe From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 07:08:57 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? Message-ID: <199903221308.AA12666@world.std.com> >This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find >a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) >bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably >the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large >number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various >devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, >knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've >got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) In my experience, I've never seen a BDV11 with more than 4 chips in the sockets... You probably have a perfectly good BDV there... >Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either >an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... Good possibility... also, a little trick about booting if all you have is the RX boot... image copy the first block (boot block) of the RL drive to the first block of an RX disk... this way, you could boot the RL by specifying the RX... I've done it numerous times on some of my -11s which didn't have the boot room I needed. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 07:39:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? In-Reply-To: <199903221308.AA12666@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find > >a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) > >bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably > >the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large > >number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various > >devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, > >knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've > >got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) Thats normal or a BDV-11 to have two or at max four chips out of the pile. They could be used as general use rom cards so the extra sockets were provided. The boot(s) provided are switch selected and include RX(01/02), RL(01/02), RK05(all) and I think MOP over a serial/sync line. I don't have by books here to check that out. On the net there is a load of stuff about the BDV-11 including a Q22 mod for it. > have is the RX boot... image copy the first block (boot block) of > the RL drive to the first block of an RX disk... this way, you > could boot the RL by specifying the RX... I've done it numerous > times on some of my -11s which didn't have the boot room I needed. Shame the wouldn't work with TU58 or MSCP (RQDX-n). In the past I've used a bootable device to boot non rom bootable stuff. Allison From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 22 07:35:17 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) Message-ID: <01be7468$d338fa20$dfc962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:56 PM Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) > >It's something I'm not into. Publishing designs that can't be built unless >your lucky to have the parts is not a winner. Trying to design something >that most everyone can build is far to time consuming and would represent >design compromizes that would be for the sake of buildability rather than >some specific perfomance. then there is the issue of support. >For example you can't get z280s as production has stopped. Some of the >parts I use are based on my really deep junkbox. I do have two scopes, >logic analyser logic probes, eprom programmers never mind the other tools >like working systems to develop code on. > >Also something on that scale requires a lot of hardware to troubleshoot >as initial bringup can include design errors, wiring errors and even a bad >part. That leads me to why the Altair and IMSAI were replaced by AppleII >and TRS80 style machines. Why, they were working out of the box and >users could start coding ideas. ok, I see (all of) your points and unhappily agree. So, what are the goals of your system design? - Mike From william at ans.net Mon Mar 22 08:17:06 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Security question (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose > hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the > Empire State Building. No, not the Empire State Building. Too many things have been falling and hitting people in NYC. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 22 08:16:42 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <01be746e$9bdf9ba0$dfc962cf@devlaptop> I've been going through the documentation for the swtpc and listed below what I have. I'd be happy to help fill in any docset gaps for anyone with copies and ask also for copies if anyone has anything not in my list. I'm initially looking for any missing Assembly instructions( MP-A2 ) Parts Lists( MP-A2, MP-B ) and System Checkout Instructions( MP-B, MP-C, MP-P ). Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net SWTPC 6800 Documentation Motorola M6800 Microcomputer System Design Data SWTPC 6800 Computer System Addendum SWTPC System Documentation Notebook Introduction Hardware Introduction MPU 1 - MPU 30 PIA 1 - PIA 14 missing 9,10 ACAI 1 - ACAI 9 Programming Introduction PROG 1 - PROG 29 OS/Software/Appendices Mikbug Operating System Dual Address Memory Test CDAT by John Christensen Engineering Note 100 - MCM6830L7 MIKBUG/MINIBUG ROM ROBIT 1 - ROBIT 4 MEMCON 1 - MEMCON 4 SERINT 1 - SERINT 3 PARINT 1 - PARINT 3 TICTAC 1 - TICTAC 9 Motorola's M6800 User's Group 1 - 3 M6800 USER GROUP LIBRARY SUBMITTAL FORM Language of the M6800 Microprocessor 1 - 16 Motorola Semiconductors - MC14411 System Checkout Instructions 1 - 6 molex zero force sockets ic insertion instructions Connector ReferenceSheet System Checkout Instructions MP-A2 Version 1 - 5 (page 5 partially missing) board layout of MP-A2 Assembly Instructions MP-B Mother Board 1 - 9 schematic Assembly Instructions MP-C Serial, Control Interface 1 - 12 Parts List MP-C Serial Control Interface schematic board layout Assembly Instructions MP-P Power Supply 1 - 6 Parts List MP-P Power Supply schematic board layout MP-P Power Supply Wiring Diagram M-16-A Installation Instructions *EOD* From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 22 08:30:09 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: SWPT 6800 Message-ID: <01be7470$7cecb780$dfc962cf@devlaptop> I also have no documenetation on the AC-30. Is this compatible with the MP-C board and does anyone have any paper on it? Thanks again - Mike: dogas@leading.net From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 09:06:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) In-Reply-To: <01be7468$d338fa20$dfc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: > ok, I see (all of) your points and unhappily agree. So, what are the goals > of your system design? A hardware platform to run the z280 as it has system/user space as well as I&D capability in the MMU. Code development will include a revised version of CP/M based on clone code to add hierachial directories in a way that doesn't break current applications. The ZCPR named path and user space was a limited fix in this area of directory management. Other changes planned will include foreground/background processing off a banked BDOS/BIOS. This will extend the work I did back in the early 80s with base z80s in a multiprocessor configuration. To accomplish the project of then I needed a version of the z80 that trapped on illegal instructions and knew the difference between user and system spaces, the z280 added the capability and extended the instruction set as well over the z180. The z280 is roughly similar to the PDP-11/73 cpu in the MMU capability. A limited subset of the project may apply to non z280 sytems. I'd like to see CP/M get a real directory structure that does not break the BDOS interface and can address really big devices (atleast 500mb) senseably. Non trivial project. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 22 09:21:56 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: References: <001601be7275$7ed54a00$7f483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990322092156.00cbe480@vpwisfirewall> At 06:43 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Like I said in a previous message, just >because an idiot wants to pay $3,000 for an Altair, doesn't mean everyone >else should too. Ebay is your boogie-man. You say Ebay's driven up the prices of Altairs, but where's the marketplace that's selling Altairs for $600, like in the good old days? Who's to say that the street price of an Altair isn't $3K or $6K? While we have plenty of aspersions on the character of the "idiots" paying greater-than-hamfest prices, where's the discussion of quality o the merchandise? Isn't it possible that a "cherry" Altair, known working, lovingly cared-for, with historically accurate peripherals, docs and software would be worth more than the $200 hamfest dust-covered Altair case? At 10:01 AM 3/20/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Of course they wish for a ridiculously high price. And my argument, which >you did not address, is that ebay's auction mechanism encourages >such ridiculously high prices. Yes, an auction can generate high prices. From the perspective of the seller, they're getting the best possible price. For the seller, you'd think they'd believe they were getting what they want for the price they're willing to pay. You're right, there are many variations of auction-like sale mechanisms, and there isn't yet a web site for every one. So you're going to pay for your time and bandwidth on www.sellam.com via the sale of banner ads, or what? >Its a free market sure, but the prices that come out of ebay auctions are >by no measure "fair market value". Pish-posh! Price is set between buyer and seller - that's it. Sure, you could write a book and attempt to persuade people that your estimated values were accurate for some place and time, but it doesn't prevent people from selling for less, and it doesn't prevent people paying more. So how do you derive "fair market value" for an Altair in Silicon Valley, versus an Altair I could see and buy here in Wisconsin? Yes, Ebay makes it easy for "lazy" people to buy Altairs. I don't spend many spare hours searching junk shops, but does that make me lazy or undeserving of the opportunity to own one at a price I'm willing to pay? - John From william at ans.net Mon Mar 22 09:29:34 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Odd DEC module Message-ID: This weekend I spent some time at the RCS/RI millspace, and one of the new arrivals is a very odd DEC module. It is called a "Smart Module", dates to 1975 or so, and is a double-high, extra long card. It looks to have an i4004, a bunch of glue, and five sockets for some 24 pin chips (ROMs?). The interesting thing are the handles - they are yellow! It is officially known as a Y187. I have never seen a yellow DEC module, nor have any references to any. The big blue Engineering book does not mention them. Any ideas from the Digits out there? Were these DEC internal? Prototypes? Mistakes? William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 22 09:55:06 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: References: <000701be73b5$01230660$ccbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990322095506.00fd99c0@vpwisfirewall> At 10:58 AM 3/21/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Think of it this way: if a toy stuffed with beans that cost a couple >dollars to manufacture were to be made for sale in a way which makes >people perceive a scarcity, and that toy was then subsequently priced up >to $1000 because of dealers and price speculators feeding on the perceived >scarcity of that toy, is it really worth $1000? Don't answer that yet. >Now fast forward a couple years in time and the market runs its course, >people are fed up with this toy and don't care about it anymore. The fad >is over, the bottom of the market drops out, and the last sorry asshole to >pay $1000 for a toy stuffed with beans is left holding an item worth maybe >$50 to the person who still hasn't caught on that it was all just an >irrational frenzy to begin with. Uh, yeah, I think there's at least two auction sites like that: NYSE and NASDAQ. - John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 11:06:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? In-Reply-To: <19990322124502.11277.rocketmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I haven't seen a cube up close since they first came out. Perhaps > people wanted to find out if the case really was made of magnesium > and set them on fire? :-) I've heard of such. At least one guy I spoke to at a ham fest had some NeXT cube cases he was going to ignite at the Burning Man festival in Nevada. I expressed my disdain for this practice. Of course they were just dead shells, but still. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 22 11:32:05 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Tiny Basic again In-Reply-To: <199903162111.NAA11046@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <199903221732.JAA14300@civic.hal.com> Hi Dave I thought I'm mention that I found an add for the Poly88 in the back of the PCC's Reference as well. Check it out. Dwight Dwight Elvey wrote: > Dave Dameron wrote: > > See if you can find the book "PCC's Reference book of Personal and Home > > Computing". It has an article and the commented source of Palo Alto Tiny > > Basic, for 8080 and Z-80 by Li-Chen Wang. It is version 3 and is later then > > the one printed in an early Dr. Dobbs. > > Is this what you've found? > > -Dave > > Hi Dave > This is the one I found. It seems quite similar to the From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 11:37:58 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? In-Reply-To: References: <199903221308.AA12666@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990322093506.00bb9f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:39 AM 3/22/99 -0500, Allison wrote: >Shame the wouldn't work with TU58 or MSCP (RQDX-n). In the past I've used >a bootable device to boot non rom bootable stuff. I went through and read the docs on the ESDI controllers I got with the uVaxen and the Sigma controller has a built in booter for LSI-11 systems so it will boot an MSCP disk. Presumably I could boot either RT-11 or RSX-11 with that setup. --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 11:36:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990322092156.00cbe480@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: This is the last I'll have to "say" about this. Form your own conclusions. > The Agony of Victory: Online Auctions and the Winner's Curse > > By Bruce Gottlieb > > > Online auctions are the Internet flavor of the moment. The best-known > auction site, eBay, went public in September 1998 at $18 and shot up > to $47 by the end of its first day. It's now at about $150, which > means that investors value the company at around $20 billion despite > only $47 million in sales over the last 12 months. Traditional > businesses want in on online auctions as well. You have until March > 21, 1999, for instance, to bid on the pink satin eye mask Faye > Dunaway wore in Mommie Dearest (current high bid: $650) at > Universalstudios.com. > > A technology that allows you to bid on a 1970 Ch\a^teau > Lafite-Rothschild (Wine.com, $205) without leaving your study is > impressive. But it cannot repeal the laws of economics. One such law > is dubbed the "winner's curse" and holds that the winner of an > auction almost always overpays. As an understanding of this law > makes clear, online auctions make the winner's curse even worse. > > Auctions are often thought of as models of economic efficiency, > uniting buyers and sellers at just the right price to maximize their > mutual satisfaction, put resources to their highest and best use, > and so on. But three petroleum engineers writing in the Journal of > Petroleum Technology explained in 1971 why this is not the case. > > Suppose several petroleum firms are bidding on the drilling rights to > a piece of tundra. No firm is sure how much oil is underneath the > property, so they hire a team of engineers to poke at the surface > rocks and make a guess. The guesses will likely range from too low > to too high. Some firm's engineer will probably guess right, but > that firm won't win the auction. The winner will be the firm whose > engineer was the most overoptimistic. The winning firm won't > ultimately get as much oil as their engineers promised, meaning the > firm paid too much. In short, the auction "winner" is > ultimately a loser. > > This is a particularly clear example because the thing being > auctioned will have a definite value in the future that is > unknowable at present. But the winner's curse afflicts auction > bidders whenever there is uncertainty over the current or eventual > value of the item on the block. This is true even when bidders have > no intention of reselling the item and when its innate value seems > inherently subjective. > > For example, bidders for Faye Dunaway's pink eye mask must make some > judgment on how much they care about Faye Dunaway. If that were all, > the winner would likely be the person who cared the most. That would > be economically efficient in two senses: 1) the utility of Dunaway's > eye mask would be maximized by placing it with the person who can > extract the greatest pleasure from it (just as, uncertainty aside, > the highest bidder for an oil field will be the person who can > extract the most oil from it); and 2) that person would pay no more > for the eye mask than the pleasure of owning it was worth to him. > > But the course of love is as uncertain as the petroleum content of a > pile of rocks. Bidders must also try to guess how much they'll care > for Faye Dunaway in, say, 10 years. The more you overestimate your > undying affection, the more likely you are to win the auction--and > the more likely you are to feel like an idiot in 2009. > > Economists have pointed out that if bidders were truly rational, > they'd simply reduce their bids to correct for the winner's curse. > There is even a mathematical proof that a perfectly rational actor > can avoid the curse. But experimental evidence suggests that even > experienced bidders don't reduce their bids by enough. For instance, > a study of oil field auctions shows that even seasoned firms > typically pay far too much for drilling rights given the amount of > oil they eventually recover. The same phenomenon has been observed > when corporate takeover wizards bid on other companies--the "winner" > often overpays. In other words, oil firms and corporate takeover > specialists keep on getting burned in auctions but persist in > bidding too high. They simply don't learn. > > Irritatingly, a rational person who understands the winner's curse > can't do anything about it so long as the other bidders continue to > bid irrationally. If you bid rationally (lower), you won't win any > auctions; if you bid what it takes to win auctions (higher), you'll > lose money because of the winner's curse. Economist Richard Thaler > wickedly suggests a solution: Explain the theory to your > competitors. He posits that this is exactly why the three oil > engineers published their article explaining the curse in 1971. > Their hope was to induce other firms to reduce their bids. If so, it > didn't work, since oil firms continue to overpay. > > Online auctions worsen the winner's curse by increasing the number of > bidders. The craziest poor sucker in a group of 20,000 bidders on > the Internet is likely to be crazier than the craziest one among 200 > in a Burbank hotel ballroom. That's another thing that experimental > economists have confirmed--the larger the group, the bigger the > winner's curse. There's no satisfactory way to buy rare or one of a > kind items, but online auctions are a particularly bad method. > > On the other hand, if buyers at online auctions are persistently > disappointed, it's possible that after a while they'll stop bidding. > It's also possible that experience will lead them to approximate > "rationality," and they'll reduce their bids. Either way, sellers > would find their inflated profits eroded. But auctions have survived > the winner's curse for millenniums, and even the Internet is > unlikely to change that. > > To be sure, not all auctions are rip-offs. Remember, there is no > danger of the winner's curse if you are sure about the value of an > item to you. In that situation, the auction device serves its proper > purpose of putting the item in the hands of whoever values it the > most. For instance, suppose you are buying a Beanie Baby for your > little brother or a discounted airline ticket to Cabo San Lucas. > Most folks have a pretty clear idea of how much pleasure they'll get > from their brother's smiles or a few days of sand and surf. And sane > consumers won't bid more than these respective pleasures are worth > to them--meaning that they can't feel cheated. > > The winner's curse also doesn't apply when there are many identical > items being auctioned off. In those cases, where there is enough > quantity available to satisfy most bidders, the going price will be > set by the sensible middle of the pack rather than by the most > overoptimistic extremist. The leading example of such an auction is > the stock market. So the winner's curse can't explain the > extravagant price of shares in eBay itself. Unless, of course, when > it comes to Internet shares there is no sensible middle. If > everyone's gone crazy, economic theory isn't much help. > > _______________________________________________________ > > SLATE -- your smart take on the week's news, politics, and culture > (http://www.slate.com). > > Copyright (c) 1999 Microsoft and/or its suppliers. All rights > reserved. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 11:50:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990322092156.00cbe480@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <4.1.19990322094802.00bb4140@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Sam you make our point elegantly, extracting from the text ... ... Remember, there is no danger of the winner's curse if you are sure about the value of an item to YOU. (emphasis mine) You know somethings value, you can bid at that value, if you win then great, if you lose then some sucker over paid for the item, but that isn't your problem is it? --Chuck From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Mar 22 11:48:26 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: GRiDCase 1530? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990322114826.00931d20@texas.net> Anyone know anything about a GRiDCase 1530? Here's the situation: I have one that needs a new MB which can be had for $79.00. I know it's a i386 with a 100Mb HD (NO FLOPPY) and a B/W LCD display and it used a special version of MSDOS with some GRiD stuff added. 1) Anyone know if I can just add a floppy and a larger HD? 2) Can I load Linux on it? Thanks, Arfon ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 22 11:57:36 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322094802.00bb4140@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990322092156.00cbe480@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990322115736.00fe0a70@vpwisfirewall> At 09:50 AM 3/22/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > >You know somethings value, you can bid at that value, if you win then >great, if you lose then some sucker over paid for the item, but that isn't >your problem is it? Only if you let it bother you. :-) Overall, what strikes me about this discussion is the continuing whiffs of envy and hypocrisy that waft about... Doug's mad that he can't buy every 50s gizmo at sufficiently low prices at online auctions only he's supposed to know about, and Sam's mad because so many people have become more aware of the value ($ or personal) of old computers, raising the prices, yet the VCF is part of the engine doing just that. I fully support and admire the VCF, but you've got to admit that every list member's efforts to publicize our collections through vanity web sites is affecting the public's perception of the value of old computers. I won't be truly happy until my Teraks have appreciated from the $1-$25 I've paid for them, to Altair-sized prices, of course. :-) - John From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 12:17:50 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? References: <199903221308.AA12666@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903221817.AA17070@world.std.com> >I went through and read the docs on the ESDI controllers I got with the >uVaxen and the Sigma controller has a built in booter for LSI-11 systems >so it will boot an MSCP disk. Presumably I could boot either RT-11 or >RSX-11 with that setup. Keep in mind that because there is a standard location for boot code, a controller which has its own on-board might conflict with a BDV or REV board... boot code is normally located at 173000 with some additional code at 165000. You'll only be able to have one or the other, not both... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 22 12:33:31 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: GRiDCase 1530? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990322114826.00931d20@texas.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Anyone know anything about a GRiDCase 1530? > > I know it's a i386 with a 100Mb HD (NO FLOPPY) and a B/W LCD display and it > used a special version of MSDOS with some GRiD stuff added. > > 1) Anyone know if I can just add a floppy and a larger HD? > 2) Can I load Linux on it? Assuming you have 4Mbytes or more of RAM, you can almost certainly install Linux. I doubt you'll be able to effectively use X, since a mono LCD of that age wouldn't have adequate resolution even if by chance it's VGA. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 12:33:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Redundant Technology Initiative Message-ID: Here's an interesting site. Not exactly what I'd have in mind for old computers but at least they aren't junking them and it seems pretty cool. http://www.lowtech.org/ Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 22 13:31:58 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market References: Message-ID: <36F69AAE.25FEBB4D@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > This is the last I'll have to "say" about this. Form your own > conclusions. > > > The Agony of Victory: Online Auctions and the Winner's Curse > > > > By Bruce Gottlieb I had always thought one of the primary purposes of what we are doing is to save the older computers, etc. for historical purposes. It is really difficult to save something we don't even know exists. You are implying from everything you have said that price is also a primary concern even given that the higher pricing does save stuff from that great dumpster in the sky. I really feel discriminated against because I can't afford the space and utilities to put up a mainframe and run it. I also feel discriminated against because I can't afford the time to spend working as much as I would like on this older computer stuff. Those are both other forms of price discrimination, but so far you haven't rallied against them. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned them :). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 12:40:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 21, 99 10:54:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/e2c61dfa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 12:43:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 21, 99 08:04:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 778 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/4a7e5577/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 12:48:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 22, 99 02:50:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/5750f237/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 12:52:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 22, 99 02:58:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1223 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/9c177877/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 12:36:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) In-Reply-To: <199903220351.AA04834@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 21, 99 10:51:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/84588300/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 22 14:43:44 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903222043.MAA14345@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The 2350 is a USRT. And it just happens to be one that was used in some > hard sectored disk controllers - like the H17 card I have schematics of > here... Hi Controllers that used USRT's were almost always hard sectored. Soft sectoring is done by having special clock/data marks that are not normally valid for actual data. Picking these out requires extra hardware that normal serial chips don't have. Softwarewise, one could use soft sectored type disk ( not as soft sectored though ). Most drives are actually quite stable in speed. They might vary from drive to drive but on a specific drive, they are reasonably constant in speed. This means that one could use just the index mark and a time delay to determine when to write or read a sector. One might not be able to achieve the same density that was originally used but it is still quite reasonable to do it this way. Dwight From svs at ropnet.ru Mon Mar 22 15:35:01 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <027101be726a$f0497b80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com>; from Joseph S. Barrera III on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:45:18PM -0800 References: <36F2E888.C4E6E587@rain.org> <027101be726a$f0497b80$9ab8399d@dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <19990323003501.16870@firepower> On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:45:18PM -0800, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > I was born yesterday, but it wasn't that late in the day. Ebay *is* an > open > > market (except in the brain damaged recent decision to unilaterally ban > the > > sale of firearms.) > > ... and power cords. Don't forget power cords. ...and soon-to-be-banned-anarchist-cookbooks-with-nuclear-bomb-recipes. Hm. How about underdeveloped Polaroid photos of broken Sun SPARCs? , minimum bid $1200. No bids yet :-) -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From stephen.j.gabaly at lmco.com Mon Mar 22 16:23:22 1999 From: stephen.j.gabaly at lmco.com (Gabaly, Stephen J) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <815D4FDDF9F6D011A5ED0000F804A87502EC1135@emss04m04.cs.lmco.com> > > The Agony of Victory: Online Auctions and the Winner's Curse > > > > By Bruce Gottlieb > > > > snip > An extremely one-sided view, in my opinion, it makes many false assumptions, like each bidder has zero knowledge of the others bidders tactics and bids. I personally have not bid on products when "certain" people have the current high bid, I know their max bid is probably very high, so I don't bother. (result is a high bidder underpaiding). I wonder if anybody else does this? I would also guess that many cases exist where all bidders bid below the "fair future value". It has to happen, no one knows the future. In fact, all people who bid on the first Altairs auctioned on Ebay all bid below the fair future value(where today is the future). No? Ebay may seem a sellers market to a buyer, but go ask a couple dealers and you will get another story. The fact the auction ends at a specified time without a doubt lowers the final auction price, this does not occur in a live auction, in live auctions bids are taken until all bidders have reach their maximum bid. Collusion is also common on Ebay, and unlike real auctions is not enforced even if discovered. The grass is always greener on the other side .. For an excellent discussion on auctions, live and online, read about auctions from a real dealer http://www.mermac.com/auction.html steve From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 22 16:38:52 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >What do you mean "You can't have people use it, because that would destroy >it"? Its going to decay into a pile of dust anyway. You may as well give >people the opportunity to experience it first hand while its still >possible. In ther very least, have it running with some software that >demonstrates some of its capabilities. You know, I live near a museum of transportation. This museum displays various old cars. They also have a bunch of cars for kids to play with. Every one of these was missing every removable part the few times I've been there. I don't see any reason why computers should be subjected to this. >Such a negative thinker. I'm an optimistic pessimist -- Everything sucks and I love it :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 22 16:56:01 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >Do you really think that such a display is an acceptable substitute for >the real thing? Well, I would be very cautious about letting people use the 'real thing' (see below). >If you keep a complete backup of the hard disk (something that's a good >idea anyway), and possibly substitute the keyboard (if spares for it are >impossible to obtain), then there's little that can be damaged from >people using the machine. And an unoriginal keyboard is a lot better than >an unoriginal CPU Yes, that's true. But how would the people use such a machine anyway? I mean, if you put on a card some instructions, people will just type them in not understanding the reasons for them, and not get any joy from it. This is especially true for machines that don't use keyboards and screens. Let's say we took a DEC running OS/8 and let people use it. What would they do with it? They might type DIR, say "Oh, it's like DOS" and walk way. >Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly interested in seeing >how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've >been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of >somebody demonstrating something. Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights. For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning, smoke coming out, etc. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 17:06:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >If you keep a complete backup of the hard disk (something that's a good > >idea anyway), and possibly substitute the keyboard (if spares for it are > >impossible to obtain), then there's little that can be damaged from > >people using the machine. And an unoriginal keyboard is a lot better than > >an unoriginal CPU > > Yes, that's true. But how would the people use such a machine anyway? I > mean, if you put on a card some instructions, people will just type them > in not understanding the reasons for them, and not get any joy from it. > This is especially true for machines that don't use keyboards and > screens. Let's say we took a DEC running OS/8 and let people use it. What > would they do with it? They might type DIR, say "Oh, it's like DOS" and > walk way. That's entirely correct, if you targeted your audience to be the general public. But computer museums definitely have a certain group of people who are interested in their exhibits--namely programmers--and these people should have free access to the machines in the collection. > >Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly interested in seeing > >how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've > >been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of > >somebody demonstrating something. > > Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights. > For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning, > smoke coming out, etc. That's where a live human comes in. To explain to the interested but untrained observer what it is they are looking at, why it is significant, and what it could do. The problem is finding such people to man the exhibits. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 16:43:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <199903222043.MAA14345@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 22, 99 12:43:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/0e14577c/attachment.ksh From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Mar 22 17:28:14 1999 From: thedm at sunflower.com (TheDM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Wanted. Coleco vision Message-ID: <001b01be74bb$a8e8fba0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or trade? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 17:37:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Wanted. Coleco vision In-Reply-To: <001b01be74bb$a8e8fba0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, TheDM wrote: > Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I > need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or > trade? What's a Coleco Adam 3? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 17:52:30 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: berman? In-Reply-To: <008a01be7463$cdbdb9a0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990322154434.00a3e910@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:59 AM 3/22/99 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their >website just dead or.... >Jay West They are still there, I went by to be sure. They are completely "clueless" about the web so it may be a couple of days before they get their site back up. (I'm going to see if I can sell them a FreeGate box :-) Interesting stuff in this week's auction: #113 - set of interactive UNIX docs from Sun #109 M/2000 RISComputer (MIPS) #108 TU81+ tape drive #59 Qty 4 "ASR" Silent 700's (with cassette drives) *very* grungy #40 Various boards that look like HP boards one was marked HP 13037-69023 and C-1635 #37 Empty HP21MX frame and another HP21xx frame (no nameplate) HP Rk05 type disk (front loading pizza box) #19 Computer Automation "Alpha-16" front panel and on the pallet apparently the body of this machine. #14 Two HP7970E 1600BPI 9-trk drives #5 Very RARE Sun 75/GT "Graphics Tower" this was part of the Evans & Sutherland joint cooperation program with Sun. Few of these were sold (they cost 100K+) There is also a DECStation 5000/125, a SPARCStation 1+, and a couple of Sun Shoeboxes (external scsi drives) on this pallet. --Chuck From cdrmool at interlog.com Mon Mar 22 05:51:27 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Data General NOVA2 in 519 area Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> I just noticed in the TOR.FORSALE.COMPUTERS newsgroup an advert for a Data General NOVA 2 "with core memory in a DG rack" call 519-744-2900. I know nothing about this at all other than it looked like something that someone somewhere might somehow be intersted. If its really cool and you get it for virtually nothing, don't tell me. I'm doing everything in my power to ignore it. Painful as ignoring my curiosity may be. Colan From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Mar 22 17:55:19 1999 From: thedm at sunflower.com (TheDM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Wanted. Coleco vision Message-ID: <000801be74bf$71994c00$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> It's the Adam that is only an Adam if you have a colecovision to expand it with. -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Wanted. Coleco vision >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, TheDM wrote: > >> Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I >> need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or >> trade? > >What's a Coleco Adam 3? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 22 18:13:05 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Xebec Minicomputer References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <36F6DC91.B958650A@rain.org> I was talking this weekend with someone who has offered me several older computers and one of them was a Xebec Minicomputer (I am assuming it is spelled this way from the pronunciation.) It sounds like it comes with the big platters for disk storage. Anyone know what this thing is and/or any information about it? Thanks. From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 22 18:02:20 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: <001401be7400$5f70c2c0$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> Message-ID: <000001be74c0$6c2d3f00$d6701fd1@5x86jk> Yes I would like to work on something like this. If everyone on this or as many as possible would just e-mail the local prices in their area to a central place then a list could be made available to the group and later others. This way you could list prices by area, say on the west coast computer A goes for this amount and the same computer on the east coast goes for this amount. I would be willing to keep the database or spreadsheet with the info. What does everyone think ? John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Francois > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 7:08 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Seller's market > > > I guess what we need is a definite authoritative price list for classic > computers like the becket for baseball cards or the blue book for > cars etc. > This could be a collective or individual effort. > Any takers? > Francois. > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Mar 22 18:14:55 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:16 2005 Subject: .DSK files. Message-ID: I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? Now that the 9trk works, that is.. :) Cheers and Thanks.. John From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 22 18:09:37 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? In-Reply-To: <000001be7403$0c4f4c80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <000101be74c1$7016b8c0$d6701fd1@5x86jk> How much for the items below ? e-mail me offline jrkeys@concentric.net > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Chandra Bajpai > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 1999 7:27 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? > > > > > > - Commodore Test diskettes, repair schematics + procedures > (including some stuff that never made it to the market) > - Lots of manuals...even an original 1976 MOS Technology 6502 programming > manual in as new condition! > - Lots of software (even some SuperPet stuff) > - Compute magazine from 1980-1983 in as new condition > - Commodore PET Literature > > This stuff came out of school computer labs and some stuff when Commodore > Canada shut down. > All the machines seem to work OK...pretty good shape for being close to 20 > years old. > Need some TLC...they have various school names in marker on the side. > > So I need to find homes for these PCs....they are taking up a lot > of room in > my basement. > I'm need to sell them...This list gets first crack at them...I'll consider > interesting > trades too... > > My overall want list: > NeXT, KIM-1, A working S-100 and/or CP/M System, Lisa, Tesla coil, > telescopes, night vision gear, GPS, Oscilloscope, Lotus Esprit > SE, Robotics > items, or anything other interesting items. > > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 18:27:51 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <36F6DC91.B958650A@rain.org> References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Of what use is a DEC Pro-350? I just picked one up that seems to have all its boards, it has an RX50 drive (on a DEC Sled so I could slot it into the uVax) and a Seagate ST-251 on another sled. When powered up it makes the disk wiggle but it didn't come with a keyboard or a monitor so I have know idea what its doing. I remember someone asking about ethernet as well. This unit has an ethernet connector on the back. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 22 18:10:35 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <001801be74c1$c810b1c0$3e483cd1@fuj03> I'm not at all sure I'd let current generation programmers mess with MY computer hardware. Thirty years ago, when programmers were not only the people hunched over a teletype, but also the guys who jumpered the 026 keypunch and knew how to decipher what was on a tape which wouldn't deskew properly, you could trust them to examine without damaging things. Over the past 20 years, however, I've observed that programmers have less and less concept of the reality of the computer in front of them or down the hall at the end of the cable . . . Such individuals would probably do damage, irreparable or otherwise, yet not only fail to grasp that it could happen, but deny it when faced with incontrovertible evidence of their sins. I don't know whether it's better to protect the old hardware, or the people's right to see it. I do know that I've observed perfectly adult-looking individuals doing things to computer equipment not their own, of which I would only accuse a child not tall enough to reach it. just my nickel's worth . . . (inflation) Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >>Do you really think that such a display is an acceptable substitute for >>the real thing? > >Well, I would be very cautious about letting people use the 'real thing' >(see below). > >>If you keep a complete backup of the hard disk (something that's a good >>idea anyway), and possibly substitute the keyboard (if spares for it are >>impossible to obtain), then there's little that can be damaged from >>people using the machine. And an unoriginal keyboard is a lot better than >>an unoriginal CPU > >Yes, that's true. But how would the people use such a machine anyway? I >mean, if you put on a card some instructions, people will just type them >in not understanding the reasons for them, and not get any joy from it. >This is especially true for machines that don't use keyboards and >screens. Let's say we took a DEC running OS/8 and let people use it. What >would they do with it? They might type DIR, say "Oh, it's like DOS" and >walk way. > >>Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly interested in seeing >>how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've >>been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of >>somebody demonstrating something. > >Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights. >For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning, >smoke coming out, etc. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Mar 22 18:20:15 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: berman? Message-ID: <005601be74c3$30abc200$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> You may want to check out the ALPHA 16. I used to service them and should still have the docs. All of the ones I dealt with were core memory 8 and 16K IIRC. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: berman? At 06:59 AM 3/22/99 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their >website just dead or.... >Jay West They are still there, I went by to be sure. They are completely "clueless" about the web so it may be a couple of days before they get their site back up. (I'm going to see if I can sell them a FreeGate box :-) Interesting stuff in this week's auction: #113 - set of interactive UNIX docs from Sun #109 M/2000 RISComputer (MIPS) #108 TU81+ tape drive #59 Qty 4 "ASR" Silent 700's (with cassette drives) *very* grungy #40 Various boards that look like HP boards one was marked HP 13037-69023 and C-1635 #37 Empty HP21MX frame and another HP21xx frame (no nameplate) HP Rk05 type disk (front loading pizza box) #19 Computer Automation "Alpha-16" front panel and on the pallet apparently the body of this machine. #14 Two HP7970E 1600BPI 9-trk drives #5 Very RARE Sun 75/GT "Graphics Tower" this was part of the Evans & Sutherland joint cooperation program with Sun. Few of these were sold (they cost 100K+) There is also a DECStation 5000/125, a SPARCStation 1+, and a couple of Sun Shoeboxes (external scsi drives) on this pallet. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 22 18:29:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 22, 99 04:27:51 pm Message-ID: <199903230029.QAA29020@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 217 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990322/86ce796a/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 18:38:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <001801be74c1$c810b1c0$3e483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm not at all sure I'd let current generation programmers mess with MY > computer hardware. Thirty years ago, when programmers were not only the > people hunched over a teletype, but also the guys who jumpered the 026 > keypunch and knew how to decipher what was on a tape which wouldn't deskew > properly, you could trust them to examine without damaging things. Over the > past 20 years, however, I've observed that programmers have less and less > concept of the reality of the computer in front of them or down the hall at > the end of the cable . . . > > Such individuals would probably do damage, irreparable or otherwise, yet not > only fail to grasp that it could happen, but deny it when faced with > incontrovertible evidence of their sins. Sure, so then you're in the camp that says lock them up and don't let anyone ever touch them, much less see them? How then does one learn anything about them? > I don't know whether it's better to protect the old hardware, or the > people's right to see it. I do know that I've observed perfectly > adult-looking individuals doing things to computer equipment not their own, > of which I would only accuse a child not tall enough to reach it. If I were serious about creating a "museum" where I wanted people to be able to handle the artifacts (and by the way, I am) I'd make sure that each individual would be required to become a member, and membership would entail some manner of education about proper handling of computer items, including static discharge procedures, not pulling cards out of a live system, etc. From basic electronics to storage media handling to electrical safety precautions. Only after the new member passed this training and proved competence would he/she be able to actively examine and experiment with the artifacts. This has the side benefit of weeding out the weekend engineers and ensuring that the truly interested and dedicated get access to the stuff. The rest just get to look at it :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 18:46:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? Message-ID: <199903230046.AA01395@world.std.com> <>Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: <> <>Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either <>an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... Ok, with the book infront of me... First Qbus-11s boot at 173000, the BDV-11 provides rom from 173000-->173776 (512 bytes), the roms are larger than 512bytes, Most boots are smaller than 512bytes! So those roms contain, Boot time diagnostic and one of the folowing: RK05 (DKn) RL01/2 (DLn) RX01 (DXn) RX02 (DYn) MOPboot via (DUV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F) (for 23-045E2/046E2 romset) or user supplied rom with boot. the board also supplies a halt/enable switch, Restart switch and BEVENT-L disable. the leds are power OK and diagnostic error. Handy board for Qbus 11 building where the cpu is LSI11(M7264), LSI11/2(m7270) or 11/23(m8186). The later M8189 (11/23b) and 11/73 cards have rom on board. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 18:37:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 22, 99 05:38:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/21a9439b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 18:44:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 22, 99 05:56:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2642 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/484f912a/attachment.ksh From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Mar 22 18:57:09 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <36F6E6E5.EE1F5C1D@halcyon.com> Chuck, Zane's earlier comment is right on. I have a 380, and it's a semi-alternative to an 11/23 or 11/73. Although it uses the same chip as the 11/73, its bus (CTI=Computing Terminal Interconnect) is pretty slow; I think it's an 8-bit bus that multiplexes everything. The main advantage to a 350 or 380 is that you can get complete software, either the P/OS system (RSX-11M-) or Venix, completely free and legal on the 'Net. All Pros have the ethernet connector on the back, but they don't necessarily have an adapter (DECNA) inside. Look to see if it has a card with the number 000042 on its handle. A 350 will typically have: a floppy adapter, a hard drive adapter, 0 or 2 graphics cards, 0 or more memory cards, ethernet card, etc. You can also add memory with a daughter board on the motherboard without using any of the 6 slots. If you want a memory daughter board, let me know-- I have a couple of extra ones. Look inside and tell me the numbers. I can tell you what they are. Dave Chuck McManis wrote: > > Of what use is a DEC Pro-350? > > I just picked one up that seems to have all its boards, it has an RX50 > drive (on a DEC Sled so I could slot it into the uVax) and a Seagate ST-251 > on another sled. When powered up it makes the disk wiggle but it didn't > come with a keyboard or a monitor so I have know idea what its doing. > > I remember someone asking about ethernet as well. This unit has an ethernet > connector on the back. > > --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 22 20:50:09 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: HP disk drive command set Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990322205009.4b2f6d9e@intellistar.net> Jeff, I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do you still need a copy? Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 18:57:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <001801be74c1$c810b1c0$3e483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 22, 99 05:10:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1457 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/e403f4b6/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 19:11:54 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <4.1.19990322170933.00cf3e80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> FWIW there are more than one kind of museum. There is a "Tech museum" kind that has a bunch of pretty displays behind plexiglass and the "research" kind. (And a whole bunch that are somewhere in the middle). If you have privileges at a research museum you can work on and/or use parts of the collection that are not available for "general" use. I would expect that a good research computer museum would be a great place to visit. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 19:01:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 22, 99 04:27:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/34a78aea/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 22 19:12:17 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Displaying classic computers (was Re: Rebirth of IMSAI) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990322171217.00aa58f0@agora.rdrop.com> At 05:56 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Max Eskin wrote: >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: ...discussion of pros/cons of diplaying classic systems... > >>Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly interested in seeing >>how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've >>been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of >>somebody demonstrating something. > >Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights. >For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning, >smoke coming out, etc. That sounds like an awful PC (Personal Computer) point of view... If the display is properly done, there can be a lot of things to watch. Open reel tape drives, large format plotters, graphical disply terminals/screens, high-speed line printers, and of course... the blinkenlights! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 22 19:13:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <36F6E6E5.EE1F5C1D@halcyon.com> (djenner@halcyon.com) References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <36F6E6E5.EE1F5C1D@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19990323011302.12398.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The main advantage to a 350 or 380 is that you can get complete software, > either the P/OS system (RSX-11M-) or Venix, completely free and legal on > the 'Net. Since P/OS is "in the public domain" (having been contributed to DECUS), does that mean that I can in principle reverse engineer it and publish my reverse-engineered "source code"? Not that I have time for such an endeavor. :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 22 19:04:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 22, 99 04:38:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1324 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/1201088f/attachment.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Mar 22 19:14:15 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Xebec Minicomputer References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <36F6DC91.B958650A@rain.org> Message-ID: <36F6EAE7.9DA89B89@hotoffice.com> CYBEX perhaps? (www.cybex.com) Fault tolerant, multi-processor systems. All the ones that I've seen have 486 engines. Really don't know anything about them. Steve Robertson Marvin wrote: > > I was talking this weekend with someone who has offered me several older > computers and one of them was a Xebec Minicomputer (I am assuming it is > spelled this way from the pronunciation.) It sounds like it comes with the > big platters for disk storage. Anyone know what this thing is and/or any > information about it? Thanks. From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Mar 22 19:15:07 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: .DSK files. References: Message-ID: <36F6EB1B.F5EE93FA@halcyon.com> John, If you're running RT-11, Version 5.0 or later: 1) copy the .DSK file (say, file.DSK) to your hard disk 2) type MOUNT LDn: file.DSK (n=0,...,7) 3) then use LDn: just as you would any physical drive, type, e.g., DIR LD0: 4) to disassociate the LD with the file, type DISMOUNT LDn: Sounds like you're getting off a horse! Should have been, probably, UNMOUNT. Dave John Lawson wrote: > > I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist > on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . > > Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? > > Now that the 9trk works, that is.. :) > > Cheers and Thanks.. > > John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 19:24:06 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <36F6E6E5.EE1F5C1D@halcyon.com> References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990322172147.00d05290@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Card numbers (from left to right) are: 000401 002004 001002 000034 000034 At 04:57 PM 3/22/99 -0800, Dave wrote: >The main advantage to a 350 or 380 is that you can get complete software, >either the P/OS system (RSX-11M-) or Venix, completely free and legal on >the 'Net. Does Venix use the serial port for the console? --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 22 19:31:00 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? In-Reply-To: <199903230046.AA01395@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990322172626.00c2ebf0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Thanks Allison! At 07:46 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >So those roms contain, > Boot time diagnostic and one of the folowing: > RK05 (DKn) > RL01/2 (DLn) > RX01 (DXn) > RX02 (DYn) > MOPboot via (DUV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F) (for 23-045E2/046E2 romset) > or user supplied rom with boot. Cool, one step closer to that system working again. >the board also supplies a halt/enable switch, Restart switch and BEVENT-L >disable. the leds are power OK and diagnostic error. Ok, now the "panel" if you can call it that on the PDP-11/03 BA11-N has three switches as well (restart (momentary), Halt, and Aux). I assume that these are connected in some way to the BDV11 internally? tracking the ribbon cable isn't easy on this chassis. >Handy board for Qbus 11 building where the cpu is LSI11(M7264), >LSI11/2(m7270) or 11/23(m8186). I seem to have one of each. Thanks again! --Chuck From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 22 20:12:40 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > That's entirely correct, if you targeted your audience to be the general > public. But computer museums definitely have a certain group of people > who are interested in their exhibits--namely programmers--and these people > should have free access to the machines in the collection. Problem for me is I don't carry a government-issue ID that declares me to be a programmer, a system administrator, a serious hobbyist, a former Tandy demi-god or anything else of that nature. (Nor would I carry one). And business card machines are available in any airport or train station as though they counted. So who decides who has free access to museum displays? I guess I could carry photocopies of papers and articles, but so could anybody claiming to be a gemologist at the pretty rock department of the Museum of Natural History in DC to play with the Hope diamond. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:19:25 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199903230219.AA23282@world.std.com> >Of what use is a DEC Pro-350? The same use as any other general purpose computer... you can have it do anything you program it to... It is a pdp-11 (of sorts), designed with the DCF11 chipset, so it is like a pdp-11/23. It uses an entirely different interrupt structure from normal pdp-11s, but RT-11 does run on it. There is also P/OS, V3.2 which is available from one of the pdp-11 archive sites, and a unix-lookalike (Venix). Supposedly 2.9BSD can also run on it, if you have the right set of patches... >I just picked one up that seems to have all its boards, it has an RX50 >drive (on a DEC Sled so I could slot it into the uVax) and a Seagate >ST-251 on another sled. When powered up it makes the disk wiggle but it >didn't come with a keyboard or a monitor so I have know idea what its >doing. You *have* to have the monitor and keyboard... it doesn't work without them. Although it has a port which can be configured as the console terminal, it requires a special cable and it only works with programmed I/O -- not interrupt driven. The PRO uses a special bitmap for the display. There is a special handler under RT-11 (the PI[X].sys handler) which takes care of the keyboard and the bitmap display, emulating a VT100... it also handles the 64 ticks/sec clock (one of every 16 clock ticks is ignored, resulting in a 60hz clock) >I remember someone asking about ethernet as well. This unit has an >ethernet connector on the back. The connector is there on all of them... but you need the DECNA option board for it to work... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:23:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199903230223.AA00726@world.std.com> >All Pros have the ethernet connector on the back, but they don't >necessarily have an adapter (DECNA) inside. Look to see if it has a card >with the number 000042 on its handle. A 350 will typically have: a >floppy adapter, a hard drive adapter, 0 or 2 graphics cards, 0 or more >memory cards, ethernet card, etc. You can also add memory with a >daughter board on the motherboard without using any of the 6 slots. If >you want a memory daughter board, let me know-- I have a couple of extra >ones. There has to be at least 1 graphics board on the 350... the 380 has it integral to the mother board. The 350 can have the EBO board (extended bitmap option) which provides two additional planes of display memory. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:33:52 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903230233.AA08427@world.std.com> >FWIW there are more than one kind of museum. There is a "Tech museum" >kind that has a bunch of pretty displays behind plexiglass and the >"research" kind. (And a whole bunch that are somewhere in the middle). >If you have privileges at a research museum you can work on and/or use >parts of the collection that are not available for "general" use. I would >expect that a good research computer museum would be a great place to >visit. All this talk of museums... I've been toying with the idea of trying to set up something like that... Along the lines of RCS/RI... I was wondering how such groups got started... how did/do they afford storage places... Are there people in the eastern-mass area who might be interestd in trying to put one together? What I've been thinking of is a place where people can put their systems on display -- static while being worked on, with help from volunteers, and dynamic once working. At least when working I would hope that people could use a terminal to use/program it. Obviously, not everyone would be allowed to actually touch the innards of a system or the removable bits... that would be reserved for those who have an expressed interest/knowledge of a specific system. Otherwise, people would have to settle for terminal access, or supervised access. I was thinking of contacting the current owners of the Maynard Mill to see if there was any possibility of donation of (or reduced rental) on a space there... it would be neat if some DEC systems could return home for display... What do people think? What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... Pardon my ramblings... I guess I'm disappointed with the Boston Computer Museum, some of what I've heard about the Computer Museum at Moffett field is criminal, plus it is too far away as is VCF, and with my schedule I've been unable to get to RCS/RI... (plus, I know my partner would like to see me move some of my collection out... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:41:57 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199903230241.AA14881@world.std.com> >Since P/OS is "in the public domain" (having been contributed to DECUS), >does that mean that I can in principle reverse engineer it and publish my >reverse-engineered "source code"? I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on tv, radio or anywhere else... But I would suspect that the software is still *owned* by Compaq (through Digital), even though the binary images are available in the public domain... If you made any such patches, you probably couldn't charge for them (except for media)... but what the heck do I know... Somewhere in my collection of packs... I believe I have a set of development packs for P/OS, bequethed to me by a former developer who left DEC... copies of the master. I'll have to look around for them and verify that it is true (I think they are RA60s, but I don't yet have an RA60 drive). If I do, I'll have to look into their status... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:45:12 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: .DSK files. References: Message-ID: <199903230245.AA17265@world.std.com> >If you're running RT-11, Version 5.0 or later: The problem is that I don't think he is... I seem to remember a prior post mentioning RSTS V9.? I don't think there is any support for the RT-11 logical disk under RSTS... the RT-11 RTS (run-time system) on RSTS is, I think, based on V3B of RT-11 with extensions to the CSI for RSTS UICs and protections... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:48:27 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: BDV11 - which ROMs ? Message-ID: <199903230248.AA19196@world.std.com> >Ok, now the "panel" if you can call it that on the PDP-11/03 BA11-N has >three switches as well (restart (momentary), Halt, and Aux). I assume >that these are connected in some way to the BDV11 internally? tracking >the ribbon cable isn't easy on this chassis. Not really connected to the BDV... the BDV has controls over BHALT and the LTC... but so does the console. They both have to be set correctly for the processor to be in RUN mode. The Restart switch momentarily deasserts DCOK (if I remember correctly). The halt switch enables/disables BHALT (again, IIRC), and the LTC switch allows/disallows line frequency interrupts. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 20:51:19 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: MVaxII give away... Message-ID: <199903230251.AA21195@world.std.com> This was posted in comp.sys.dec... contact the person in the post, not me... - - - - - I have a MicroVAX II (BA23 cabinet?) to give away in SE Minneapolis. It has 5MB of memory, 150MB disk and TK50 tape drive. MicroVMS 4.5 is installed. Unusual boards include Analogic AP500 array processor controller, unfortunately without the AP500 itself. If anybody is interested and can pick it up locally, please let me know. - Marek -- | Marek Behr | (612) 626-8067 | behr@arc.umn.edu | | University of Minnesota | -fax- 626-1596 | http://www.arc.umn.edu/~behr | From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 22 21:00:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <003f01be74d9$430cf340$3e483cd1@fuj03> I'd say let 'em prove they know enough not to hurt anything before you let them at the "real McCoy" hardware. Test them out on a simulator complete with obscure anomalies, let them prove they won't roach the hard disk or dump the tape on the floor. Of course, I also advocate allowing only those who've passed a test on the issues/candidates vote. How silly can a guy get??? -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:45 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I'm not at all sure I'd let current generation programmers mess with MY >> computer hardware. Thirty years ago, when programmers were not only the >> people hunched over a teletype, but also the guys who jumpered the 026 >> keypunch and knew how to decipher what was on a tape which wouldn't deskew >> properly, you could trust them to examine without damaging things. Over the >> past 20 years, however, I've observed that programmers have less and less >> concept of the reality of the computer in front of them or down the hall at >> the end of the cable . . . >> >> Such individuals would probably do damage, irreparable or otherwise, yet not >> only fail to grasp that it could happen, but deny it when faced with >> incontrovertible evidence of their sins. > >Sure, so then you're in the camp that says lock them up and don't let >anyone ever touch them, much less see them? How then does one learn >anything about them? > >> I don't know whether it's better to protect the old hardware, or the >> people's right to see it. I do know that I've observed perfectly >> adult-looking individuals doing things to computer equipment not their own, >> of which I would only accuse a child not tall enough to reach it. > >If I were serious about creating a "museum" where I wanted people to be >able to handle the artifacts (and by the way, I am) I'd make sure that >each individual would be required to become a member, and membership would >entail some manner of education about proper handling of computer items, >including static discharge procedures, not pulling cards out of a live >system, etc. From basic electronics to storage media handling to >electrical safety precautions. Only after the new member passed this >training and proved competence would he/she be able to actively examine >and experiment with the artifacts. > >This has the side benefit of weeding out the weekend engineers and >ensuring that the truly interested and dedicated get access to the stuff. >The rest just get to look at it :) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Mar 22 21:05:23 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: .DSK files. In-Reply-To: <199903230245.AA17265@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > > >If you're running RT-11, Version 5.0 or later: > > The problem is that I don't think he is... I seem to remember > a prior post mentioning RSTS V9.? This latter is correct... I have used the RT11 RTS under RSTS V9.7 on the 11/44 in question. > > I don't think there is any support for the RT-11 logical disk > under RSTS... the RT-11 RTS (run-time system) on RSTS is, I > think, based on V3B of RT-11 with extensions to the CSI for > RSTS UICs and protections... > RT11 docs I have complete.. I can look up the 'logical disk' stuff there. I think Task #3 (task 1 was getting the 9trk working, task 2 is putting it all in one [uuuwaaaghhh!] rack) will be to get an RL02 or two up an on the air... then try to get RT11 of some version running... then play. I think I've not just bitten off more than I can chew.. actually I think the Sandwich itself is bigger than I am.... ;} Thanks for the help y'all! Cheers John From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Mar 22 21:07:00 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: MINI AUCTION - Unibus Boards In-Reply-To: References: <25bb86cd.36edd23f@aol.com> Message-ID: >UP FOR SEALED BID AUCTION > >DEC Board M8743 - CMOS Memory Board >DEC Board M7133 - 11/24 CPU Card >Condition: These have not been tested. They came out of a DEC communications server. Visually they are clean and undamaged. > >Auction Terms: This will be a sealed bid auction. Send your offers > to me at wirehead@retrocomputing.com. They will be recorded > and the highest bidder by Midnight March 24, 1999 will be sold > the item. Everyone, who bid, will receive an email at that time > telling > them the high bid but not to whom it was sold. Shipping will > be in addition to your bid and will be $5.00 in the continental > United States. There is no minimum bid on this item. Please feel free to bid any amount. > >Payment Terms: The successful bidder will send a check or money order > for the winning bid amount plus $5.00 shipping to my address, > which the winner will be provided. >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > >PS: My last auction was posted on Thursday, 5 days ago. From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Mar 22 21:18:07 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: .DSK files. References: Message-ID: <36F707EF.80EA91F3@halcyon.com> That's why I said "If you're running RT-11, Version 5.0 or later". If you're NOT, well, that's another story. There was a DECUS-contributed handler, the SD.SYS handler, back in Version 3 and 4 that did (does?) the "same thing" as LD in Version 5.0. Are the two compatible? If so, you could find the SD handler and use it under RSTS? (Maybe it's on one of the tapes you can't read, yet/!!!) I haven't found the docs for RT-11 Version 5.0 very useful for using logical disks. There's all the references you need for commands, but there are almost NO discussions of how to do common tasks. I.e., there's no way to put it together to do what you want to do except by trial and error. Or brilliant deduction, which I usually don't have. Dave John Lawson wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > > > > > >If you're running RT-11, Version 5.0 or later: > > > > The problem is that I don't think he is... I seem to remember > > a prior post mentioning RSTS V9.? > > This latter is correct... I have used the RT11 RTS under RSTS V9.7 > on the 11/44 in question. > > > > > I don't think there is any support for the RT-11 logical disk > > under RSTS... the RT-11 RTS (run-time system) on RSTS is, I > > think, based on V3B of RT-11 with extensions to the CSI for > > RSTS UICs and protections... > > > > RT11 docs I have complete.. I can look up the 'logical disk' > stuff there. > > I think Task #3 (task 1 was getting the 9trk working, task 2 is > putting it all in one [uuuwaaaghhh!] rack) will be to get an RL02 or > two up an on the air... then try to get RT11 of some version > running... then play. > > I think I've not just bitten off more than I can chew.. actually I > think the Sandwich itself is bigger than I am.... ;} > > Thanks for the help y'all! > > > Cheers > > John From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Mar 22 21:53:09 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? References: <3.0.2.32.19990322065127.0075e4a4@mail.interlog.com> <4.1.19990322162507.00c738b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19990322172147.00d05290@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <36F71025.4F2B9B18@halcyon.com> You have as below. You probably have 512Kbytes on the motherboard for a total of 1Mbytes. You can do mono with your setup. To do color, you need another 2 bitmap planes, which come on the 001403 card, and a VR241 monitor (not impossible to find). You also need an LK201 keyboard (pretty common) and a cable for the monitor/keyboard. As I mentioned, I have a daughter memory board you can have, and the right cable. (Someone just gave me a box with an inordinate number of cables-- makes you wonder what ever happened to the monitors that could have gone with them.) There is a 2% chance I have a 001403 card in storage, but I won't be able to check that until April 10 or so. I don't think you need to run the DECNA in the 6th slot. Mine is in the 5th slot (6th is an RTI, and that has to be 6th slot), and although I have never actually gotten it to talk to anything yet (no other DECnet nodes), I see it transmit and receive stuff on my network when I boot up; and it does pass diagnostics, which transmit and receive. Dave Chuck McManis wrote: > > Card numbers (from left to right) are: > 000401 Hard disk controller, what drives you can use with this depends on the ROM level; you said you had ST251, so it's probably the latest level > 002004 Floppy disk controller > 001002 Basic video card > 000034 256Kbytes memory > 000034 256Kbytes memory > > Does Venix use the serial port for the console? Venix uses the console for the console. You can use the Printer port for another tty if you have a "license" for more than one user. You can, I think, fudge the license program at ftp.update.uu.se to increase the number of users. > > --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 22:32:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? Message-ID: <199903230432.AA12251@world.std.com> < 000401 Disk controller < 000034 ram < 000034 ram That was a memory test... > RT11 docs I have complete.. I can look up the 'logical disk' >stuff there. But if you are doing this on a RSTS machine, there is no concept of logical disks in the V3B RTS... Logical disks weren't added until much later in RT's life... (V5.?) > I think I've not just bitten off more than I can chew.. actually I >think the Sandwich itself is bigger than I am.... ;} Naw... if you get RT running, it should be fine... there was an early logical disk handler submitted to decus some years before we incorporated something similar in the base system. What version of RT-11 do you have to use? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 22:54:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: .DSK files. References: Message-ID: <199903230454.AA05213@world.std.com> >There was a DECUS-contributed handler, the SD.SYS handler, back >in Version 3 and 4 that did (does?) the "same thing" as LD in Version >5.0. Are the two compatible? If so, you could find the SD handler and >use it under RSTS? (Maybe it's on one of the tapes you can't read, >yet/!!!) THanks... I had forgotten the name of it. As for being compatible, I can't see that there is much difference so long as the SD driver serves blocks from the logical disk as if they were physical block numbers of a physical disk... the RT utilities should just be able to cope (so long as the driver follows are the prescribed driver conventions). >I haven't found the docs for RT-11 Version 5.0 very useful for >using logical disks. There's all the references you need for commands, >but there are almost NO discussions of how to do common tasks. >I.e., there's no way to put it together to do what you want to do >except by trial and error. Or brilliant deduction, which I usually >don't have. The LD[X].SYS handler is the heart of it... it is not only a handler, but a program which has a normal program entry point... if you R SY:LD.SYS you will get a CSI prompt, at which you specify what it is you want to do. I don't know which release had the KMON commands built in, I thought they were in from the beginning... Anyway, I think the source for LD (uncommented) is on the kit, so you could examine the source to see what options are allowed. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Mar 22 22:52:50 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: HP disk drive command set Message-ID: <19990322.225458.190.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Joe: Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time soon. WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface pod for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take a look around 'inside'. Thanks. Jeff On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe writes: >Jeff, > > I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do >you >still need a copy? > > > Joe > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 23:07:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > If I were serious about creating a "museum" where I wanted people to be > > able to handle the artifacts (and by the way, I am) I'd make sure that > > each individual would be required to become a member, and membership would > > entail some manner of education about proper handling of computer items, > > including static discharge procedures, not pulling cards out of a live > > system, etc. From basic electronics to storage media handling to > > electrical safety precautions. Only after the new member passed this > > training and proved competence would he/she be able to actively examine > > and experiment with the artifacts. > > Err, can there be an exception for people with major collections of their > own... Or am I going to have to be taught how to change an RK05 pack > (when I can already realign the darn drives without thinking about it) > ;-) :-) :-) The charter will include language specifically permitting Tony Duell to full and complete access to the collection :) But seriously, I would require even the most obviously technically astute person to take some sort of qualifying "quiz" to make sure they indeed knew what they were doing. If they failed any part of this quiz, they would then be required to go through the entire informational course so that they would have all the information needed to minimize (and hopefully eliminate) any damage they could conceivably cause to any artifacts. Anyone who would go through the trouble to fulfill this requirement proves their sincerity and earns the right to access the materials and artifacts. > > This has the side benefit of weeding out the weekend engineers and > > What's a weekend engineer? It can't be the obvious thing of a chap who > does engineering at the weekend, or all the serious hackers that I know > would come under the definition... Sort of like weekend-warrior. I don't know if that moniker is used outside of the States. It basically refers to any average weenie who leads a typical nine-to-five TV watching American lifestyle and then on weekends does something relatively extraordinary to that lifestyle, like taking a vehicle on an off-road excursion, taking a boat to the lake, etc. A "weekend engineer" was meant to imply a less than technically astute person who would attempt to seem more knowledgeable than they really are when visiting a museum. > > ensuring that the truly interested and dedicated get access to the stuff. > > The rest just get to look at it :) > > But at least they get to see the real hardware and not some simulation or > recording, right? Right. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 23:07:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > Problem for me is I don't carry a government-issue ID that declares > me to be a programmer, a system administrator, a serious hobbyist, > a former Tandy demi-god or anything else of that nature. (Nor > would I carry one). And business card machines are available in > any airport or train station as though they counted. So who > decides who has free access to museum displays? I guess I could > carry photocopies of papers and articles, but so could anybody > claiming to be a gemologist at the pretty rock department of the > Museum of Natural History in DC to play with the Hope diamond. I would expect that those expressing an interest with working on old computers would be sincere, and not just weekenders looking to play video games. I'm sure you've already read what my solution would be, which boils down to getting to know the interested individual before unleashing them on the collection. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Mar 22 23:32:38 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: .DSK files. References: Message-ID: <36F72776.C3A4BCD8@idirect.com> >John Lawson wrote: > I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist > on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . > > Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? > > Now that the 9trk works, that is.. :) > > Cheers and Thanks.. Jerome Fine replies: If you can get those files onto a system which runs UNIX and also download the Supnik emulator, then you can also download the V5.3 of RT-11 from: ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/sim/software/rtv53swre.tar.Z After you install everything, you will be able to legally run the hobby version of the emulator and RT-11. I would be interested in what is on the tape and maybe it could be shared with Tim Shoppa who tries to keep an archive of all PDP-11 software. Is there some manner by which the 11/44 can communicate with the internet? Or at least a PC (maybe via Kermit - yes I realize that a serial port is VERY slow) to the 11/44 can do the job. If you have a 3 1/2" floppy or a 5 1/4" RX50 floppy on the 11/44 and the files are small (very often the *.DSK files on a tape were kept less than 800 blocks for this reason), you could transfer the files to a floppy as a device and then use the floppy as an RT-11 device under RSTS. If you would like some help, I might be able to suggest things based on some additional information. A directory of the *.DSK files giving the DATE and size in blocks would help. Actually, a directory of the whole tape might help even more. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 22 23:55:56 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199903230555.AA12458@world.std.com> >But seriously, I would require even the most obviously technically astute >person to take some sort of qualifying "quiz" to make sure they indeed >knew what they were doing. If they failed any part of this quiz, they >would then be required to go through the entire informational course so >that they would have all the information needed to minimize (and >hopefully eliminate) any damage they could conceivably cause to any >artifacts. Anyone who would go through the trouble to fulfill this >requirement proves their sincerity and earns the right to access the >materials and artifacts. I like this... Provides education at the same time that you ensure that the systems will be at minimum risk... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 22 23:58:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903230233.AA08427@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > All this talk of museums... I've been toying with the idea of trying > to set up something like that... Along the lines of RCS/RI... > > I was wondering how such groups got started... how did/do they afford > storage places... My 1200sqft is very cheap at the moment (i.e. free) and I am able to take advantage of great deals on accoutrements like ~1600sqft of steel shelving for $200 by always trying to be in the right place at the right time. Of course it wouldn't be entirely possible without the help of a great group of collector's over here in the bay area that lend a generous hand without too much prodding :) > What I've been thinking of is a place where people can put their > systems on display -- static while being worked on, with help > from volunteers, and dynamic once working. At least when working > I would hope that people could use a terminal to use/program it. I'm setting up basically an old technology renaissance center. A place where hackers, nerds and geeks can go on weekends to work together on old computers (and other old technology, but mostly computers), search through the library of "obsolete" technical documentation I'm assembling for informational or just recreational reading, and share their passions with fellow enthusiasts. I hope to have it ready for the first general assembly by the summer time (June or thereabouts). > Obviously, not everyone would be allowed to actually touch the > innards of a system or the removable bits... that would be > reserved for those who have an expressed interest/knowledge of > a specific system. Otherwise, people would have to settle for > terminal access, or supervised access. And ideally you'll train the ones who express an interest in wanting to attain the knowledge necessary to be able to touch the innards. The whole premise of my establishment is to be a center of learning. > I was thinking of contacting the current owners of the Maynard > Mill to see if there was any possibility of donation of (or > reduced rental) on a space there... it would be neat if some > DEC systems could return home for display... > > What do people think? I think its a wonderful idea. More people should devote their time to this sort of endeavor. > What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of > the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it > easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... It would certainly make long trips to distant relatives more bearable for us geeks if we knew there was a computer hacker's center nearby. > Pardon my ramblings... I guess I'm disappointed with the > Boston Computer Museum, some of what I've heard about the > Computer Museum at Moffett field is criminal, plus it is > too far away as is VCF, and with my schedule I've been unable > to get to RCS/RI... Passion and vision is all it takes. > (plus, I know my partner would like to see me move some of my > collection out... :-) Much of my reason for moving my stuff out of the garage was that it just became entirely unwieldy. The secondary reason was my wife's constant nagging. Wives just don't get it I guess. I wonder if Allison's husband nags her about her garage? :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 23 01:20:28 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Museums References: <199903230233.AA08427@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36F740BC.3F0218C7@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of > the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it > easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... That is a really good idea! One of the perceptive comments made at last years VCF was that it was a "social gathering." It was and is wonderful to be able to meet and talk with others who enjoy collecting this stuff. A BIG advantage is that any future dealings with people we meet are based on something other than just email. This personal network of people we know makes for a higher confidence level with any transactions that might take place. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 23 02:14:04 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <199903230433.AA13084@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199903230433.AA13084@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990323081404.14182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison resonded to my question about P/OS: > First DEC(Compaq) still holds the copyright and it's free for use, not > free of copyright. Yes, but apparently it's freely distributable. And in the absence of a license, I think that implies that derived works are freely distributable as well. My hypothetical reverse-engineerined "source code" would obviously be a derived work. Of course, IANAL. Eric From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Mar 22 21:47:54 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <199903230433.AA13350@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903230848.DAA19187@smtp.interlog.com> On 22 Mar 99 at 23:33, Allison J Parent wrote: > < 000401 Disk controller > < 000034 ram > < 000034 ram > > That was a memory test... > > > No, It used the internal video console and Keyboard. Find a LK201/301/401 > keyboard, the cable and a VR201(monochrome) or the Color tube (VR262?) as > and of the PRO OSs will expect to use it. Though some OSs can be configured > to use the serial port for a terminal (after install). > > It's a really nice little system and a VR201 is not that large. > > Allison > What all is the DEC LK201 used on. I know it works on the Rainbow, Decmate ll and now the Pro-350. Was this kind of a general purpose DEC keyboard ? There's a raft of them in the main branch of the local Goodwil, left behind when a bunch of Rainbows were either scooped up or junked. Also I have an interesting looking k-b that I've hung onto for a while. Looks somewhat like an oversized C-64 with beige and grey keys and brown numeric. Has F1-12 on top and F13-15 between the main and num keypads next to term ans, copy, and a square image. It has an 8-trace connector kind of like an oversized RJ45. No external label but internally has a "Cherry", Waukegan, Ill label, and B4VE-A302, 51941115 Rev. F. It was manufactored in 84. The main chip is mounted, 350M 9103, VANILLA, REV C . Anyone got a clue as to what this is or a need for it ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dchew at engr.UVic.CA Tue Mar 23 02:55:31 1999 From: dchew at engr.UVic.CA (CHEWSTER WOLFMAN DAN) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:17 2005 Subject: Toshiba Message-ID: Does anyone know how the fn keys work on the Toshiba T3100e40? I have one of these 286 and I have no idea how to use the fn combo with the F# keys. Also how do I get into the setup CMOS in one of these computers? Are there software that I can get to work with it, IE, powersavers and etc? Also how do I get the modem to work on the computer? I have noticed that there are already 2 builtin serial ports, one in back and one on the right hand side. Also what is little round plug used for, that is located on the left hand side of the laptop? Is that little plugin for a INPORT mouse or a Logitec Handheld scanner or what? Some models has a plastic plug in that socket. Thanks dan From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 23 06:57:52 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP disk drive command set Message-ID: <002a01be752c$c3bce560$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:08 PM Subject: Re: HP disk drive command set >Joe: > >Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time soon. >WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface pod >for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take a >look >around 'inside'. > >Thanks. > > >Jeff > > >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe writes: >>Jeff, >> >> I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do >>you >>still need a copy? >> >> >> Joe >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 23 08:08:05 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: berman? Message-ID: <008301be7536$92755780$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Someone posted earlier about some HP stuff at berman. I apologize, but lost the message. In any case, there were several items they mentioned were up this week that I might be interested in. However, I just received the list from BDI and it doesn't appear that such items are on the list. Any ideas? Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Mar 23 07:46:44 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP disk drive command set Message-ID: <19990323.081256.59.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> This document has been elusive for quite some time. There are no less than five of us on the list who are seeking it. I would be happy to reproduce/distribute this to all interested parties for cost . . . Jeff On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:57:52 -0600 "Jay West" writes: >I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... > >Jay West >-----Original Message----- >From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:08 PM >Subject: Re: HP disk drive command set > > >>Joe: >> >>Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time >soon. >>WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface >pod >>for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take >a >>look >>around 'inside'. >> >>Thanks. >> >> >>Jeff >> >> >>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe writes: >>>Jeff, >>> >>> I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. >Do >>>you >>>still need a copy? >>> >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Mar 23 08:45:36 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Toshiba In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990323094536.007aaa80@mail.wincom.net> At 12:55 AM 3/23/1999 -0800, you wrote: > >Does anyone know how the fn keys work on the Toshiba T3100e40? > >I have one of these 286 and I have no idea how to use the fn combo with >the F# keys. > >Also how do I get into the setup CMOS in one of these computers? >Are there software that I can get to work with it, IE, powersavers and etc? > >Also how do I get the modem to work on the computer? I have noticed that >there are already 2 builtin serial ports, one in back and one on the >right hand side. Also what is little round plug used for, that is located >on the left hand side of the laptop? Is that little plugin for a INPORT >mouse or a Logitec Handheld scanner or what? Some models has a plastic >plug in that socket. > >Thanks > dan From the 3100 manual, Fn + F1 = F11, Fn + F2 =F12. Fn + Numlock gets you into the numeric keypad overlay. Fn + Pg Dn sets the processor speed to 6 Meg. Fn + Pg Up goes to 12 Meg.(or when you start the system) To select RGB, press Fn + End, Fn + Home goes to Plasma display. To access setup, go into Dos directory and type "Test 3" which gives you a diagnostics menu. (Only works with the original Toshiba Dos ). There was also a diagnostics and supplimental disk, but it also would only work with the original Dos 3.3. I haven't used a modem on mine for some time, but I have a note in the manual: " Modem (Dos6.2)(Test 3 wont work) Com 3, IRQ2, 3E8." Good luck. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 23 09:09:05 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: deletion and recovery of data Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990323090905.00b89100@vpwisfirewall> Slashdot mentioned an interesting article titled "Secure Deletion of Data from Magnetic and Solid-State Memory," which mentions relatively low-cost techniques for recovering data from supposedly "erased" media, which I suppose could be applied to recovery of data from classic computing devices: - John From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 23 09:20:29 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: CS/80 Was: Re: HP disk drive command set In-Reply-To: <002a01be752c$c3bce560$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990323094809.00a007b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:57 AM 3/23/99 -0600, Jay West said something like: >I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... That are me :) The manual you are refering to Jay is the CS/80 External Exerciser Reference Manual. The Exerciser is software which runs on an HP 85 with HPIB interface lashed up to the HP 79xx drive under test. References in this manual point directly to what we are looking for here: CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442. I believe this is the Holy Grail, so to speak, which should tell us all about CS/80. It is refered to as so: "Complete documentation for the CS/80 instruction set can be found in the _CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual_, part no. 5955-3442." Well, at least we have a part number to hunt for now. The Exerciser manual, part no. 5955-3462, has references of commands used in the External Exerciser programs on the HP 85 Exerciser tape. I don't think they are actual raw CS/80 commands which can be squirted into an HP 79xx disk or CTD from any old program we write. I well recall our HP CE occasionally hauling into the plant a large carrying case with an HP 85, special program tapes and the Exerciser manual mentioned here in order to do service upon our 7907 (IIRC), 7908 and 7912 drives (latter two in my collection now with the old HP250 computer they were hooked to.) Those tapes would be nice to have for some of us I bet. Thing to do is to rustle up one or more of the folks responsible for knowing/working with CS/80 at the HP/Boise plant and ask them if they can point us anywhere useful or even have stuff in their own archives on CS/80. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Tue Mar 23 09:37:34 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP stuff In-Reply-To: References: <19990322124502.11277.rocketmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello everyone. Here's a list of all the HP stuff we have here. They have to be out of here ASAP. But, I'll try to hang on to them for as long as I can. I'd like to find homes for them. I would also like any info any of you possibly have on them. Like, what exactly are they - what do they do? 9000 345 7958 B 7959 B 32-track 9145 A there is also one keyboard and a 46087 B Mech Eng Series 10 Pad a PaintWriter XL the 98785 A screens I mentioned before as well as the plotters (HP DraftMaster I and HP DraftPro DXL) I am located in London, so it would obviously be easier to ship within the UK for anyone interested. All I know about these things is that they were once part of the network they had here. I have no clue about their working status. Sincerely, Nasos. Oh. About the above monitors. Does anyone know how I could get these things to work with a PC or Mac? They have three BNC connectors in the back - R,G and B. No Sync like on those new LCD screens - so will a cable for those newer screens not work on these HPs? What cable do I need? Thanks. From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 23 09:58:50 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <01be7546$0ad8e660$f097a8c0@bls304-18> >There are games for classic computers as well ;-)... There probably What's the benefit of a person playing PacMan on a classic computer? How would it be different from a modern one? From amichael at nortelnetworks.com Tue Mar 23 10:08:43 1999 From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: AES 7100 Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E80140260C@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Would stand to reason AES would be a Canadian company. Dorsey now heads > Voice and Data Systems. A major player in packet technology. Sounds like a > > minor version of Corel's Cowpland. Yes Virginia ,Canada does have a > computer > aristochracy. > Here in Ottawa, old AES boxes used to turn up fairly often. But I don't recall if they were the 7100 model that Doug described. I think the Canadian government must have used hundreds of the things for word processing, and they used to show up in junk stores and even the occasional garage sale. Haven't seen one for a while, Doug, but I will keep my eyes open for boot disks or anything else AES, just in case. Also, if you need a blank hard-sectored floppy to test-feed your uncooperative new house-guest, send me your address and I'll pop one in the snail-mail. -- Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Mar 23 10:13:57 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP GPIB Cables Message-ID: Just in time for all the HP items flowing thru The List: I have gotten about 25 GPIB cables which might be of interest to all you Hewlett-Packard types out there. Price: make offer on a few, U pay shipping... Cheers John From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Mar 23 10:22:49 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap meet Message-ID: To all classiccmpers who might be in the Southern California area this coming weekend: The TRW Electronics and Ham Radio Swapmeet is this Saturday, the 27th March 1999, from 7:30 am until 11:30 am, at the TRW El Segundo facility. From the 405 (San Diego) freeway, take the Rosecrans exit west, proceed 1 mile to Aviation (under the Metrolink bridge) turn left (south) onto Aviation and go south about three blocks; parking and the Meet are in the southern lots of the plant.. just look for all the antennae on the cars. ;} Persons with Stuff to sell are welcome to use my Spaces (providing there's room); e-mail me privately for further details. Marvin has flaked out this time, so not only will I get all his goodies, we can talk about him behind his back at the After-Swap Classiccmp Brunch, provided anyone shows up for same. All are invited! Cheers John From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 23 10:27:20 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <01be7546$0ad8e660$f097a8c0@bls304-18> from "Max" at Mar 23, 99 10:58:50 am Message-ID: <199903231627.IAA25808@saul5.u.washington.edu> Max wrote: > >There are games for classic computers as well ;-)... There probably > What's the benefit of a person playing PacMan on a classic computer? How > would it be different from a modern one? The classic machine may have different graphics than any modern machine. These could be worse (which might make you think, "Eww, people played games with those graphics?" -- but at least illustrates The Way It Actually Was). They could actually be better, too. In the case of vector graphics, ther is no modern substitute. In the case of the PERQ (which I assume is where you got the PacMan example) the resolution is very high, though it's monochrome IIRC. You may say, "But my PC has higher resolution than that!" That's only true with PC hardware of the last few years, I suspect. The game itself may also use the graphics in a creative way, so that even if it's "just PacMan" it may have a certain appearance that would be hard to reproduce on a modern machine, and makes the game an individual creation. Good games on the black-and-white Macs have this quality (e.g., Dark Castle with its sharp yet "cartoon-like" graphics). Of course, if you really are lucky than the machine will be the one the game was written for. Does an actual Pac-Man arcade unit count as a classic computer? Even a historic port of PacMan (say, to the Atari 5200 -- the 2600 version might repel more visitors than it attracts) is interesting in its own way. And moving away from PacMan, I can think of a large number of games that only exist on classic machines. So playing them on the original hardware may be your only option. I'm surprised you didn't ask the other question -- How can PacMan on a modern machine be any different than the original version? It can't be much better (it either adds minor features which don't add to the gameplay, or it is a faithful reproduction -- if it's very different, then it's not PacMan anymore). It may be worse (because it doesn't have the code that the original uses). -- Derek From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 23 10:40:03 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual - 5955-3442. Message-ID: <007701be754b$cd838c60$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> >CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442. Aw heck, why didn't you guys just say so :) Since in my day job I'm an HP reseller, I just did some checking with my HP sources. The following manual: CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442 (new part number 07957+49A-90003) is available. My cost is $24.00 each plus shipping. Does anyone want me to order some copies and ship? Jay West From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 23 11:57:30 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: FW: Toshiba Message-ID: <000901be7556$9e92a340$86711fd1@5x86jk> It's the second try at sending this message about getting into cmos. John -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:48 AM To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Toshiba Just holddown the Fn key while turning on the machine to get into cmos. John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@u.washington.edu > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of CHEWSTER WOLFMAN > DAN > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 2:56 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Toshiba > > > > Does anyone know how the fn keys work on the Toshiba T3100e40? > > I have one of these 286 and I have no idea how to use the fn combo with > the F# keys. > > Also how do I get into the setup CMOS in one of these computers? > Are there software that I can get to work with it, IE, > powersavers and etc? > > Also how do I get the modem to work on the computer? I have noticed that > there are already 2 builtin serial ports, one in back and one on the > right hand side. Also what is little round plug used for, that is located > on the left hand side of the laptop? Is that little plugin for a INPORT > mouse or a Logitec Handheld scanner or what? Some models has a plastic > plug in that socket. > > Thanks > dan > > > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Mar 23 12:11:32 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually sharing the Vision -- In monitoring this coversation I'm reminded about the eventual repository of my collection. It is small by comparison to some of the collections I hear described on this list but still I have s significant amount of house space devoted to it. My wife is very supportive but we both know the collection will eventually need a home of it's own. I think our vision of such a place may be something like a Cybercafe with a dedicated place for old computer equipment to be renovated and experimented with. Obviously there would be a place for visiting computers systems as well as space for "The Collection". If such an idea becomes a chain of such things so much the better. You could end up with exchanges amonst collections similarly to the was Other museums trade exibits. I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the red. Other thoughts and ideas please..... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > > > All this talk of museums... I've been toying with the idea of trying > > to set up something like that... Along the lines of RCS/RI... > > > > I was wondering how such groups got started... how did/do they afford > > storage places... > > My 1200sqft is very cheap at the moment (i.e. free) and I am able to take > advantage of great deals on accoutrements like ~1600sqft of steel shelving > for $200 by always trying to be in the right place at the right time. > Of course it wouldn't be entirely possible without the help of a great > group of collector's over here in the bay area that lend a generous hand > without too much prodding :) > > > What I've been thinking of is a place where people can put their > > systems on display -- static while being worked on, with help > > from volunteers, and dynamic once working. At least when working > > I would hope that people could use a terminal to use/program it. > > I'm setting up basically an old technology renaissance center. A place > where hackers, nerds and geeks can go on weekends to work together on old > computers (and other old technology, but mostly computers), search through > the library of "obsolete" technical documentation I'm assembling for > informational or just recreational reading, and share their passions with > fellow enthusiasts. I hope to have it ready for the first general > assembly by the summer time (June or thereabouts). > > > Obviously, not everyone would be allowed to actually touch the > > innards of a system or the removable bits... that would be > > reserved for those who have an expressed interest/knowledge of > > a specific system. Otherwise, people would have to settle for > > terminal access, or supervised access. > > And ideally you'll train the ones who express an interest in wanting to > attain the knowledge necessary to be able to touch the innards. The whole > premise of my establishment is to be a center of learning. > > > I was thinking of contacting the current owners of the Maynard > > Mill to see if there was any possibility of donation of (or > > reduced rental) on a space there... it would be neat if some > > DEC systems could return home for display... > > > > What do people think? > > I think its a wonderful idea. More people should devote their time to > this sort of endeavor. > > > What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of > > the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it > > easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... > > It would certainly make long trips to distant relatives more bearable for > us geeks if we knew there was a computer hacker's center nearby. > > > Pardon my ramblings... I guess I'm disappointed with the > > Boston Computer Museum, some of what I've heard about the > > Computer Museum at Moffett field is criminal, plus it is > > too far away as is VCF, and with my schedule I've been unable > > to get to RCS/RI... > > Passion and vision is all it takes. > > > (plus, I know my partner would like to see me move some of my > > collection out... :-) > > Much of my reason for moving my stuff out of the garage was that it just > became entirely unwieldy. The secondary reason was my wife's constant > nagging. Wives just don't get it I guess. I wonder if Allison's husband > nags her about her garage? :) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Mar 23 12:32:03 1999 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, George Rachor wrote: >Actually sharing the Vision -- > >I think our vision of such a place may be something like a Cybercafe with >a dedicated place for old computer equipment to be renovated and >experimented with. Obviously there would be a place for visiting >computers systems as well as space for "The Collection". Wow! That's almost identical to my vision, except I also thought about doing internet serving/consulting out of the cybercafe. (You gotta have a good internet connection anyway, so why not host webpages, do design, etc.) If you have the skill, you might also want to do 'antique' computer repairs as well. (Just think, if people want to pay $15k for an altair, what will they pay to have it fixed when it breaks? No flames please, just trying to profit from the speculators.) You might want to have a workbench area equipped with some basic test equipment for other collectors to work on their machines. (I, for example, don't have any good work area right now. Hopefully in my next move :-) >If such an idea becomes a chain of such things so much the better. You >could end up with exchanges amonst collections similarly to the was Other >museums trade exibits. Would you imagine this as a franchised chain? or just a loosely knit network of similar businesses? >I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >red. My thoughts are, you have to make enough money just selling coffee and sandwiches to make the cyber part work. I'm not convinced there's any real money in the cyber part. (But in internet consulting there is.) ttyl srw From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Mar 23 12:08:18 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <8025673D.00643927.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Megan wrote: > What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of > the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it > easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... All over the country? Is this the right time to try and resurrect VCF-UK? Or even VCF-Europe? Marvin replied: > That is a really good idea! One of the perceptive comments made at last > years VCF was that it was a "social gathering." It was and is wonderful to > be able to meet and talk with others who enjoy collecting this stuff. A BIG > advantage is that any future dealings with people we meet are based on > something other than just email. This personal network of people we know > makes for a higher confidence level with any transactions that might take > place. Hear, hear! Seriously, I think that some sort of permanently-installed VCF type locations, where volunteers could come and work on exhibits, and where (possibly) trade could be carried out, would be very useful. And as I said before, I am prepared to sponsor the UK one to the tune of quite a bit of money, _if_ enough people are committed that there is a chance of making it work. (Once it's got going, I think it should be self supporting from members' subscriptions and possibly trade commissions or visitors' donations, or even commercial sponsorship :-( , but I'm not optimistic enought to think that it would work that well from the start). Philip. PS A model for trade at a permanent VCF. I was introduced to it by my brother when we were both visiting my parents... Large building full of junk. Anyone can go in and browse, and ask prices, buy things, etc. The arrangement is: you have junk you want to sell. Take it in and say "I want X pounds for this widget." The staff either say, "fine" and put it on the shelves, or say "no thanks, we don't think that'll sell (or is legal, or whatever). When someone buys something, the owners of the "trading post" (as it is called) take a commission (I think 25%) and hand the rest to the seller. If it doesn't sell after a certain length of time, they ask the seller to reduce the price or take it away or whatever. P. PPS before anyone flames me for suggesting commercial sponsorship, it would be absolutely necessary to have strict rules like the committee vets all sponsors, no conditions of "must have machine Z on display", etc. From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Mar 23 12:46:08 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Moving Sale Message-ID: <01BE7533.820A0830.steverob@hotoffice.com> Found this reference in another newsgroup. > > We are located in 411 W. River Rd, Elgin, IL 60123. > > Everything at http://www2.iteams.org/webadmin/moving_sale.htm is available. Our prices are highly negotiable. > > Philip > > -- > _______________________________________________________ > Philip Barker phil.barker@iteams.org > Asst Manager of Info Systems 847.429.0900 > International Teams - USA http://www.iteams.org Check under the "mini-computer" heading . They have a MICRO VAX II and a MICRO VAX III listed. Orginally, they had a TANDY 16 in the listing. I see that it has been removed :-( Please contact the seller directly. Steve Robertson - From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 23 12:57:15 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990323104610.0092ae90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Actually sharing the Vision -- As long as we're doing the "Vision Thang" I'll kick in my $.018995211 worth. There used to be a nice book store in town called "A Clean Well Lighted Place for Books" and it was unique in that the people who worked there read, and they wanted you to read too. You could pick out a book, read a few chapters, talk with people who probably had already read it, etc. I thought it was really a cool place. So I figured I'd open "A Clean Well Lighted Place to Hack." Kind of the same deal, we'd sell quality technical books in addition to coke and twinkies :-) And one of the coolest parts would be the 'hack wall'. That would be a wall of single board computers and i/o lines from non computers connected to lights, speakers, fans, LED bar signs, etc. The idea being that if you needed something to "target" in order to hack some code the wall was available. Periodically we'd showcase the best "wall hack" where someone had several computers working together to do something cool on with the wall i/o. --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 23 14:05:04 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP disk drive command set In-Reply-To: <002a01be752c$c3bce560$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990323140504.48ef4956@intellistar.net> At 06:57 AM 3/23/99 -0600, Jay wrote: >I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... Jay, Can I get a copy too? The one I have is the Amigo command set that's mainly used for the floppy drives. Jeff, What kind of Logic analyzer do you need probes for? I have a pile of HP, Tektronix and Gould LAs here. I can lend you a probe for one of them. I'll get a copy of the Amigo docs for you. I've packed the 9144 for you, I'll hold it and throw the docs (and the other stuff) in with it. Joe > >Jay West >-----Original Message----- >From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:08 PM >Subject: Re: HP disk drive command set > > >>Joe: >> >>Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time soon. >>WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface pod >>for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take a >>look >>around 'inside'. >> >>Thanks. >> >> >>Jeff >> >> >>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe writes: >>>Jeff, >>> >>> I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do >>>you >>>still need a copy? >>> >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> > > From donm at cts.com Tue Mar 23 13:23:31 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Toshiba In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, CHEWSTER WOLFMAN DAN wrote: Have you explored any of the files on www.toshiba.com/taecdpd/? > > Does anyone know how the fn keys work on the Toshiba T3100e40? > > I have one of these 286 and I have no idea how to use the fn combo with > the F# keys. > > Also how do I get into the setup CMOS in one of these computers? > Are there software that I can get to work with it, IE, powersavers and etc? > > Also how do I get the modem to work on the computer? I have noticed that > there are already 2 builtin serial ports, one in back and one on the > right hand side. Also what is little round plug used for, that is located > on the left hand side of the laptop? Is that little plugin for a INPORT > mouse or a Logitec Handheld scanner or what? Some models has a plastic > plug in that socket. > > Thanks > dan > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 23 15:38:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual - 5955-3442. In-Reply-To: <007701be754b$cd838c60$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990323153831.3027812e@intellistar.net> Jay, I want one. I should dig out some the other PNs of items that I'm looking for. Joe At 10:40 AM 3/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >>CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442. > > >Aw heck, why didn't you guys just say so :) > >Since in my day job I'm an HP reseller, I just did some checking with my HP >sources. The following manual: > >CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442 (new part >number 07957+49A-90003) is available. My cost is $24.00 each plus shipping. > >Does anyone want me to order some copies and ship? > >Jay West > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 23 12:33:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <003f01be74d9$430cf340$3e483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 22, 99 08:00:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/2c2ae39c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 23 12:37:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 22, 99 09:07:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1086 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/c1afafe6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 23 12:47:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <01be7546$0ad8e660$f097a8c0@bls304-18> from "Max" at Mar 23, 99 10:58:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 586 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/cd2eb92a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 23 12:53:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <199903231627.IAA25808@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 23, 99 08:27:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/61bc0be7/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 23 15:55:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP stuff In-Reply-To: References: < <19990322124502.11277.rocketmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990323155507.30277df8@intellistar.net> At 03:37 PM 3/23/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hello everyone. >Here's a list of all the HP stuff we have here. >They have to be out of here ASAP. But, I'll try to hang on to them >for as long as I can. I'd like to find homes for them. >I would also like any info any of you possibly have on them. Like, >what exactly are they - what do they do? > >9000 345 Pizza box size HP computer with 68000 series CPU and HP-HIL keyboard input. I'm still trying to figure out what monitor they take. >7958 B External disk drive with HP-IB interface. 158 Mb. I think the internal drive is ESDI. >7959 B Same but ~ 300 Mb. >32-track 9145 A Tape back up with HP-IB interface. I don't rmember the capacity. I have a couple of these but I've never found the tapes for them. In fact, I haven't even found the PN for the tape. These will read (but not write) the 88140 tapes used on the 9144. > >there is also one keyboard If it has two RJ ? sockets then it's HP-HIL and used for the 345. and a 46087 B Mech Eng Series 10 Pad I think that's the keypad with 20 some odd buttons that used mainly for CAD work. It's also HP-HIL. You can daisy-chain the HP-HIL devices together. >a PaintWriter XL >the 98785 A screens I mentioned before as well as the plotters (HP >DraftMaster I and HP DraftPro DXL) > >I am located in London, so it would obviously be easier to ship >within the UK for anyone interested. > >All I know about these things is that they were once part of the >network they had here. > >I have no clue about their working status. > >Sincerely, >Nasos. > >Oh. About the above monitors. Does anyone know how I could get these >things to work with a PC or Mac? Yes, but it's not worth the trouble. You need a specail video card and it costs as much as buying a GOOD PC monitor. They have three BNC connectors in >the back - R,G and B. No Sync like on those new LCD screens - so will >a cable for those newer screens not work on these HPs? What cable do >I need? Joe From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 23 13:52:59 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP phone numbers... Message-ID: <00d101be7566$c13f07c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Here's some handy phone numbers... HP Service Parts Identification: 916-783-0804 I don't know for sure if this number is for public dissemination, but I know they don't ask for a reseller number or anything when you call. They can identify part numbers for you, cross reference part numbers, etc. Generally they can also translate mfg. part numbers to replacement (refurb, etc.) part numbers too. You can get some info just via touch tones, but eventually you can get a real human to look things up for you. This number even has selections for the 1000 series, test and measurement, medical, etc... HP Direct: 800-227-8164 This number is for ordering ANY hp parts. They ask for a reseller number, but this is only to determine discount levels. They will sell to the general public (those without a reseller number) but only at list price. So - this number is definitely "open to the public" as long as you don't mind paying list. Generally when a product is discontinued HP clears the shelves and trashes anything past the EOS (end of support) date. However, when you call HP Direct if the product is not stocked and no longer made, I suggest you ask them for the number for FRD. This is their division which handles remanufactured gear (I don't have the number with me at the moment). They might have that 1972 widget on a shelf... :) There is also a strictly touch tone part ID phone number which I used to have but lost. One of these days I'll ask another CE for it. You punch in the part number and a recording tells you what the product is, what major assembly it goes with, updated (replacement) part numbers, etc. Anyone have this? Finally, if anyone needs a really tough HP part number tracked down, just let me know. I can get access indirectly to the HP internal parts database (PAL) which has every part HP ever made in it. I even tested it out with a dust cover plug from an HP41C calculator and it brought it right up. I don't want to abuse this route with my contact - but if anyone needs that on rare occasion feel free to contact me. Cheers! Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Mar 23 13:49:00 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual - 5955-3442. Message-ID: <19990323.134947.210.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I dunno Jay, you better check stock! I called HP about a week ago and they said it was on 'backorder'. They couldn't give me a lead time, either. Hm. I wonder if they were just jerking my chain . . . If they're in stock, put me down for one. Jeff On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:40:03 -0600 "Jay West" writes: >>CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442. > > >Aw heck, why didn't you guys just say so :) > >Since in my day job I'm an HP reseller, I just did some checking with >my HP >sources. The following manual: > >CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442 (new >part >number 07957+49A-90003) is available. My cost is $24.00 each plus >shipping. > >Does anyone want me to order some copies and ship? > >Jay West > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 23 12:51:05 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <01be7546$0ad8e660$f097a8c0@bls304-18> Message-ID: >>There are games for classic computers as well ;-)... There probably > >What's the benefit of a person playing PacMan on a classic computer? How >would it be different from a modern one? Yeah, whats the point of watching Chaplin now that we have Jim Cary? Because that is the point of history, to see how things develope over time, and to put into perspective the conditions of a past time with the present. BTW something very like the arcade game Pacman will run on a Apple II, but not on any hardware of a generation prior to it AFAIK. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Mar 23 15:06:48 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: MSCP controller docs? Message-ID: <13437732054.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Anyone got docs on programming the UDA50 MSCP controller? ------- From gram at cnct.com Tue Mar 23 15:19:42 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >>There are games for classic computers as well ;-)... There probably > > > >What's the benefit of a person playing PacMan on a classic computer? How > >would it be different from a modern one? > > Yeah, whats the point of watching Chaplin now that we have Jim Cary? Because Chaplin is still more entertaining? I mean, you can only do so much with talking butt jokes. > Because that is the point of history, to see how things develope over time, > and to put into perspective the conditions of a past time with the present. > > BTW something very like the arcade game Pacman will run on a Apple II, but > not on any hardware of a generation prior to it AFAIK. And for straight arcade action, the Big Five games for the old TRS-80 line were as good as anything then or for a goodly while afterward. (With only 1 Kbyte of display RAM to update, they were _fast_). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 23 17:28:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP phone numbers... In-Reply-To: <00d101be7566$c13f07c0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990323172825.304f6fb6@intellistar.net> Jay, Thanks for posting this but I've never had ANY luck with HP's parts identification. I recently called about something for a HP9825 and they swore they'd never made a 9825. Funny since I have about 8 of them sitting here! They have also told me that there was NEVER a service manual for the 9815 (and others). I later found one. As I said, I have NEVER gotten any help from them. It's a waste of a time to call them IMO. Thanks for the suggestion of the FRD. I'd heard of that but didn't know how to get ahold of them. BTW for any of you that try to locate docs for HP stuff, don't forget to ask if they have a PN for the doc on micro-fiche. I've gotten lucky a couple of times and got docs on fiche that weren't available on paper. Joe At 01:52 PM 3/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Here's some handy phone numbers... > >HP Service Parts Identification: 916-783-0804 >I don't know for sure if this number is for public dissemination, but I know >they don't ask for a reseller number or anything when you call. They can >identify part numbers for you, cross reference part numbers, etc. Generally >they can also translate mfg. part numbers to replacement (refurb, etc.) part >numbers too. You can get some info just via touch tones, but eventually you >can get a real human to look things up for you. This number even has >selections for the 1000 series, test and measurement, medical, etc... > >HP Direct: 800-227-8164 >This number is for ordering ANY hp parts. They ask for a reseller number, >but this is only to determine discount levels. They will sell to the general >public (those without a reseller number) but only at list price. So - this >number is definitely "open to the public" as long as you don't mind paying >list. > >Generally when a product is discontinued HP clears the shelves and trashes >anything past the EOS (end of support) date. However, when you call HP >Direct if the product is not stocked and no longer made, I suggest you ask >them for the number for FRD. This is their division which handles >remanufactured gear (I don't have the number with me at the moment). They >might have that 1972 widget on a shelf... :) > >There is also a strictly touch tone part ID phone number which I used to >have but lost. One of these days I'll ask another CE for it. You punch in >the part number and a recording tells you what the product is, what major >assembly it goes with, updated (replacement) part numbers, etc. Anyone have >this? > >Finally, if anyone needs a really tough HP part number tracked down, just >let me know. I can get access indirectly to the HP internal parts database >(PAL) which has every part HP ever made in it. I even tested it out with a >dust cover plug from an HP41C calculator and it brought it right up. I don't >want to abuse this route with my contact - but if anyone needs that on rare >occasion feel free to contact me. > >Cheers! > >Jay West > > > > From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 23 15:41:35 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: HP phone numbers... Message-ID: <014301be7575$ed21eec0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Hum, I've generally had good luck with SPID, but most of the old stuff I ask them about is 2000 related which really means "1000 series" for most intents and purposes. Since the 1000 stuff is more "current" perhaps that's why I've had better luck. Also, I must admit going straight to PAL rather than SPID. This avenue is open if you have a request :) Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 3:34 PM Subject: Re: HP phone numbers... >Jay, > > Thanks for posting this but I've never had ANY luck with HP's parts >identification. I recently called about something for a HP9825 and they >swore they'd never made a 9825. Funny since I have about 8 of them sitting >here! They have also told me that there was NEVER a service manual for the >9815 (and others). I later found one. As I said, I have NEVER gotten any >help from them. It's a waste of a time to call them IMO. > > Thanks for the suggestion of the FRD. I'd heard of that but didn't know >how to get ahold of them. > > > BTW for any of you that try to locate docs for HP stuff, don't forget to >ask if they have a PN for the doc on micro-fiche. I've gotten lucky a >couple of times and got docs on fiche that weren't available on paper. > > > > Joe > >At 01:52 PM 3/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Here's some handy phone numbers... >> >>HP Service Parts Identification: 916-783-0804 >>I don't know for sure if this number is for public dissemination, but I know >>they don't ask for a reseller number or anything when you call. They can >>identify part numbers for you, cross reference part numbers, etc. Generally >>they can also translate mfg. part numbers to replacement (refurb, etc.) part >>numbers too. You can get some info just via touch tones, but eventually you >>can get a real human to look things up for you. This number even has >>selections for the 1000 series, test and measurement, medical, etc... >> >>HP Direct: 800-227-8164 >>This number is for ordering ANY hp parts. They ask for a reseller number, >>but this is only to determine discount levels. They will sell to the general >>public (those without a reseller number) but only at list price. So - this >>number is definitely "open to the public" as long as you don't mind paying >>list. >> >>Generally when a product is discontinued HP clears the shelves and trashes >>anything past the EOS (end of support) date. However, when you call HP >>Direct if the product is not stocked and no longer made, I suggest you ask >>them for the number for FRD. This is their division which handles >>remanufactured gear (I don't have the number with me at the moment). They >>might have that 1972 widget on a shelf... :) >> >>There is also a strictly touch tone part ID phone number which I used to >>have but lost. One of these days I'll ask another CE for it. You punch in >>the part number and a recording tells you what the product is, what major >>assembly it goes with, updated (replacement) part numbers, etc. Anyone have >>this? >> >>Finally, if anyone needs a really tough HP part number tracked down, just >>let me know. I can get access indirectly to the HP internal parts database >>(PAL) which has every part HP ever made in it. I even tested it out with a >>dust cover plug from an HP41C calculator and it brought it right up. I don't >>want to abuse this route with my contact - but if anyone needs that on rare >>occasion feel free to contact me. >> >>Cheers! >> >>Jay West >> >> >> >> > > From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 23 15:52:15 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <8025673D.00643927.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: >All over the country? > >Is this the right time to try and resurrect VCF-UK? > >Or even VCF-Europe? I am reminded of the chain of theme parks named after an american Nazi who had an interesting preoccupation with cartoons... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 23 16:05:02 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Mar 23, 99 04:52:15 pm Message-ID: <199903232205.OAA11546@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990323/109389db/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 23 16:01:46 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >Yeah, whats the point of watching Chaplin now that we have Jim Cary? Chaplin is completely different from Jim Carey, and does indeed tell us something about history. Comparing two versions of Pac-Man does not. Perhaps, have the machines run the demos that they were running in the showrooms? This is a very real issue, BTW, since it is important to decide what we're going to do with all of these old machines. I'm glad we're discussing it. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 23 16:32:34 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903232232.AA09524@world.std.com> >I think our vision of such a place may be something like a Cybercafe with >a dedicated place for old computer equipment to be renovated and >experimented with. Obviously there would be a place for visiting >computers systems as well as space for "The Collection". Yes, yes... that's it exactly... >I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >red. My problem is that I don't have the time to organize it myself, nor the courage to take the risk... if I were a little more financially set (like after winning a lottery), I would consider it, but not right now... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 23 16:40:40 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903232240.AA15918@world.std.com> >All over the country? > >Is this the right time to try and resurrect VCF-UK? > >Or even VCF-Europe? Whoops... I apologize for being too Ameri-centric... I should know better... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 23 16:47:39 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199903232247.AA21222@world.std.com> >You mean things like GT40 lunar lander, which is (IMHO) a classic game... I have the source for that... a copy of the source that Max.B and I hacked on years ago (1976/77) to get it working on a pdp-11/40 based VT11/VR14... I think it is more up-to-date than is available on the web... I'll have to track it down... There were some changes we had to make for a different clock (KW11-P) and adjusting some values on the intensity of some vectors which hit by the light pen... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 23 19:02:37 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: CS/80 Was: Re: HP disk drive command set In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990323094809.00a007b0@206.231.8.2> References: <002a01be752c$c3bce560$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990323190237.3e27a89c@intellistar.net> At 10:20 AM 3/23/99 -0500, Chris wrote: >Upon the date 06:57 AM 3/23/99 -0600, Jay West said something like: >>I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... > >That are me :) > >The manual you are refering to Jay is the CS/80 External Exerciser >Reference Manual. The Exerciser is software which runs on an HP 85 with >HPIB interface lashed up to the HP 79xx drive under test. That sounds like part of the 5061-2808 test program. I found the binder for it but no docs or software. How about making me a copy? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 23 19:12:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: More details was: HP stuff In-Reply-To: References: < <19990322124502.11277.rocketmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990323191206.48d7a29c@intellistar.net> At 03:37 PM 3/23/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hello everyone. >Here's a list of all the HP stuff we have here. >They have to be out of here ASAP. But, I'll try to hang on to them >for as long as I can. I'd like to find homes for them. >I would also like any info any of you possibly have on them. Like, >what exactly are they - what do they do? > >9000 345 >7958 B >7959 B >32-track 9145 A > >there is also one keyboard and a 46087 B Mech Eng Series 10 Pad I was wrong, this isn't the 20 key keypad. It's a A4 size digitizer. >a PaintWriter XL Printer. >the 98785 A screens 16 inch high resolution, 1024 x768 color monitor with 60 Hz refresh rate. it works with the 98547 video card. Joe From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 23 17:33:43 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: More details was: HP stuff References: < <19990322124502.11277.rocketmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <199903232333.AA28296@world.std.com> With all this talk about HP stuff... I have the chance to get ahold of one of the HP Ethernet network trace units... it is something like an HP9273 (I'll have to check)... It has a 5" Green monitor, flip-down keyboard in the cover, AUI port. It can boot from 3.5" floppy or internal hard disk (which may be 20 or so MB...) I think it uses a 68020 processor (?). Can this boot something other than the HP network analysis software? Are there any development tools which someone can get ahold of which can be used to write software for it? I know I can use it on my home network... but it would be a neat hack to also be able to develop software for it (maybe see if a unix port is possible...) If anyone can identify it from my somewhat scattered description, great... if not, I'll get the info and ask again... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Mar 23 17:46:50 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: More details was: HP stuff Message-ID: <01ca01be7587$6c550ae0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I'd need the part number to be sure... but... if that's what I think it is you're a very lucky camper. That sounds like the HP Network Analyzer. It is sold as a Laptop unit with custom HP network monitoring software. If that's what I think it is - it is a CURRENT product, and sells for anywhere from $15,000.00 to $60,000.00 depending on the options it has. Let me know the part number and I'll hunt it up for ya. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 5:42 PM Subject: Re: More details was: HP stuff >With all this talk about HP stuff... I have the chance to get ahold >of one of the HP Ethernet network trace units... it is something like >an HP9273 (I'll have to check)... > >It has a 5" Green monitor, flip-down keyboard in the cover, AUI >port. It can boot from 3.5" floppy or internal hard disk (which >may be 20 or so MB...) I think it uses a 68020 processor (?). > >Can this boot something other than the HP network analysis >software? Are there any development tools which someone >can get ahold of which can be used to write software for >it? > >I know I can use it on my home network... but it would be a neat >hack to also be able to develop software for it (maybe see if a >unix port is possible...) > >If anyone can identify it from my somewhat scattered description, >great... if not, I'll get the info and ask again... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > From sieler at allegro.com Tue Mar 23 18:16:12 1999 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP RuggedWriters Message-ID: <199903240016.QAA22098@bart.allegro.com> Hi, I'm visting a client of mine, and when I walked into his office, I saw two HP RuggedWriters opened up, with their parts strewn around. They're trying to combin two broken ones to make one working one. Their business relies on the HP RuggedWriter, which is now obsolete and not supported by HP. If anyone can point me to some used RuggedWriters, I'd appreciate it! thanks, -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Mar 23 19:48:27 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <001e01be7598$6aa48c00$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 24 March 1999 10:03 Subject: Re: Museums >>I think our vision of such a place may be something like a Cybercafe with >>a dedicated place for old computer equipment to be renovated and >>experimented with. Obviously there would be a place for visiting >>computers systems as well as space for "The Collection". Ahem, yes. Mine too. I run an Internet Cafe. We have a big workshop out the back, which is partly filled with Vaxen in various stages of repair/decomposition. As well, I use an 8530/CIBCA? and TU78/TA78 pair as a room divider in the cafe, and a HSC50 and a half height cabinet, with 3 RA81's in it, as a counter. Oh, yeah, there's a 6310 and SA600 (working system) in there too. (Single phase conversion done) There is a large warehouse (ex-bakery) next door, (was a s/h shop but they went broke) that I am trying to rent at a reasonable rate. The landlord currently wants unreasonable rates, by local standards. (it's a small place, 15000 or so) It's perfect, solid building, big doors, concrete floors, 3 phase power (they had electric kilns) and plenty of room for even very big systems, which I hope to specialise in, several desktop machine "museums" around, but very few with big iron it seems. (I'm currently looking for PDP-8, PDP-11, Vax, Prime and IBM "big stuff" in Oz, preferably South Australia) A Cray would be nice too, but no idea where I'd find one.... Any other big systems that list members think might be worthy of inclusion? >>I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >>but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >>red. Not at the moment, but it looks like it might eventually, diversity is the key, we also do repairs and sell s/h systems. Tea, Coffee, Lollies, drinks and ice-creams do surprisingly well too. In a museum they'd probably do better. Surprisingly good market for $100-200 computers, of the 386/486 variety. People on Unemployment, Supporting Parent and Invalid Pensions can't afford to buy $1500 new computers, and typically just want to play a few games and do a little word processing...... >if I were a little more financially >set (like after winning a lottery), Now that would help, I'd buy the whole damn place off this guy, $100k would buy my shop, the attached house, and the bakery complex..... Seriously, I think your concept is good, biggest headache is floor space, my bet is that you need to set up in a smaller place, a country town, not too far from a big city, but where the rents for warehouse space don't look like the NASA budget. I suspect this is why most museums I've seen/heard of concentrate on desktop stuff, they don't need a huge area to house it. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Mar 22 18:48:27 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:18 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <003601be759b$515d4400$066dffd0@office1> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:27:06 -0500, "Mike" wrote: >>Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro >>styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with >>*some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel >>experience. I think that what Tom is thinking of doing -- a Pentium II-class motherboard joined to an IMSAI front panel with either the S100 or a "new" expansion bus. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Mar 22 18:56:03 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Re "New" IMSAI Message-ID: <003701be759b$52484040$066dffd0@office1> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:50:14 -0500, "Barry A. Watzman" wrote: >>You are never going to see a "new" IMSAI for $500. One can wish, can't one??? >>In the first place, many of the parts that would be needed for a complete >>system are no longer available. Like what?? I don't have schematics for the IMSAI, but looking at the Altair schemtaics, Jameco has many of the old parts except the 1702A EPROM and the exact RAM (although the 5101 looks like a likely sub). The power supply transformer may be available on the surplus market, or in new production quantities from Signal. >>In the second place, the original IMSAI was not UL approved (or even safe, really) >>and could probably not be sold today. >>In the third place, the original IMSAI was not even close to meeting FCC >>Class A much less B. If the plan is to sell a complete, fully-functional, off-the-shelf unit in CompUSA, then yes I agree UL/CSA approvals (which are expensive) are necessary, as is meeting the FCC emissions regs. However, how many hobbyest projects in Radio-Electronics or Popular Electronics have passed those rigorous tests? I'd guess none. What standards to be met depends on where this is being sold and in what quantities. Also, a redesign of the power supply for common sense safety is not all that difficult. I believe that it *is* possible to produce a slightly re-engineered "25th Anniversary" IMSAI 8080 for a reasonable price. >>Finally, $500 would be cheap for a low-volume copy, regulatory issues aside. Like I said in my original post, I'd bet that it is possible to come close to $500 (profits not included). The hardest part I'd bet is finding a suitable replacement for the enclosure. Maybe $500 isn't the right price; maybe $600 is. Maybe it's $800 with a profit figured in. I'd bet that it's less than $1200, though. If someone will send me a complete bill of materials for a basic IMSAI 8080, I can spend a few minutes pricing out the parts (assuming a 500 qty). >>Do not be surprised when your unrealistic expectations are not realized. Believe me, I won't be surprised. My pricing thesis was not an "expectation" since I hadn't gone through the exercise of pricing out a BOM to test for reasonableness. Maybe I'm all wet, but then again, maybe I'm not. I don't know. I was merely stating what may be possible. Here's my guidepost: the original Altair kit was what, $497. I figured that any cost benefit from {current} lower prices on silicon and passives would be offset by higher prices on harder-to-find parts such as the case, bus connectors and RAM. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Mar 22 20:41:07 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Scorpion whoosie whatsis Message-ID: <003801be759b$5507ae60$066dffd0@office1> Hello, all: I just got a bunch of schematics for the main logic board and memory for a Scorpion computer. Does anyone have any info on this machine?? I'm not even sure that it was in production or not. It looks to be based on the 68k processor. I also got some schematics for the Corvus Concept and the Corvus hard disk interface (from IMI?) I'll post these shortly, but any info on the Scorpion is appreciated. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 23 20:13:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > >All over the country? > > > >Is this the right time to try and resurrect VCF-UK? > > > >Or even VCF-Europe? > > I am reminded of the chain of theme parks named after an american Nazi who > had an interesting preoccupation with cartoons... Well, since I too am a Nazi then the parallels are uncanny! (Disney was a Nazi?) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 23 20:16:35 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> >Surprisingly good market for $100-200 computers, of the 386/486 variety. >People on Unemployment, Supporting Parent and Invalid Pensions can't >afford to buy $1500 new computers, and typically just want to play a few >games and do a little word processing...... That sounds like part of what I was thinking of as well... a place where people could bring all sorts of random PC parts and help put systems together for people who might not otherwise be able to afford a computer system... We'd be able to do a service for people... >Seriously, I think your concept is good, biggest headache is floor space, >my bet is that you need to set up in a smaller place, a country town, not >too far from a big city, but where the rents for warehouse space don't >look like the NASA budget. I suspect this is why most museums I've >seen/heard of concentrate on desktop stuff, they don't need a huge area >to house it. That is a problem... cost for space. I decided to call around today and see if I could get a ballpark idea of what space might cost. So far I've only gotten through to one place -- an old mill complex in Saxonville, Mass. When I called, I was told that all they had left was a 2500 sq-ft area... at *$8* per sq-ft. That's US$20000 (I believe for a year), $1667/month. If this could be a club formed as a non-profit organization, and if I could get $10/month out of people, we'd need 167 members just to pay for the space... Then we have electric, which I would suspect will be a major part of the cost for such a power-oriented hobby. I know of one group who has space at $3/sq-ft, and a person who posted recently saying that they had space for free... I've got a call into Whittier Partners about space at the Maynard, Mass. mill complex (birthplace of DEC) but have not gotten a call back yet. Does anyone know if there might happen to be any grants or something equivalent that such an organization might be able to apply for? Doing a little more thinking about memberships, I was thinking of a tiered approach (typical) which ranks members on their level of usage of the facilities. And maybe there could be breaks for those who provide help to others... (just some more rambling) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Watzman at ibm.net Tue Mar 23 19:13:21 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: sellers market - firearms Message-ID: <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably the real reason. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 23 20:45:27 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >red. > >Other thoughts and ideas please..... >George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com Simple, serve good food of a wide variety, and put it near one of the local Intel plants. Between Ronlar Acres and Jones Farm would probably be the best. The down side being that rent around here for the kind of space needed is probably murder! For places that don't have the advantage of Intel plants to draw a crowd, I'd suggest placing it near a College. For either including some kind of gaming set up might be helpful. Both multi-player computer games, and stuff like "Magic:The Adiction". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 23 20:48:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Saxonville, Mass. When I called, I was told that all they had left was >a 2500 sq-ft area... at *$8* per sq-ft. That's US$20000 (I believe for >a year), $1667/month. If this could be a club formed as a non-profit >organization, and if I could get $10/month out of people, we'd need >167 members just to pay for the space... Then we have electric, which >I would suspect will be a major part of the cost for such a power-oriented >hobby. Don't forget this is America, land of the lawsuit, something like this would potentially need some hefty insurance because of all the "dangerous items". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 23 21:00:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > That is a problem... cost for space. I decided to call around today > and see if I could get a ballpark idea of what space might cost. So > far I've only gotten through to one place -- an old mill complex in > Saxonville, Mass. When I called, I was told that all they had left was > a 2500 sq-ft area... at *$8* per sq-ft. That's US$20000 (I believe for > a year), $1667/month. If this could be a club formed as a non-profit > organization, and if I could get $10/month out of people, we'd need > 167 members just to pay for the space... Then we have electric, which > I would suspect will be a major part of the cost for such a power-oriented > hobby. > > I know of one group who has space at $3/sq-ft, and a person who posted > recently saying that they had space for free... You've got to do a LOT of calling around. And be prepared to be depressed at the prices you get quoted. I was fortunate to get the deal I currently have (and its only temporary, at some point I'll have to start paying). Try looking for places that have extra space they won't need or don't ever intend to use. You can sublet for probably a little less per sqft than market rate. Also, try to be more flexible with what you want and where you want it. You might find find a useable space at a very reasonable price that's a little farther out than you wanted, but the increased driving (and hauling) time may be worth it. Thanks to the booming economy, space is just not cheap these days, so there will be trade offs. Speaking of hauling distance, that is one thing to consider. You don't want the space to be opposite of where you'll be hauling most of your stuff from. Also, it should be a space that has access for large machines, preferably with a ramp, or at least no obstacles into the space, and large doors to fit big 7ft tall cabinets. > Does anyone know if there might happen to be any grants or something > equivalent that such an organization might be able to apply for? If you create a non-profit organization then it will be much easier to get companies to sponsor you in exhangce for tax write-offs. > Doing a little more thinking about memberships, I was thinking of > a tiered approach (typical) which ranks members on their level of > usage of the facilities. And maybe there could be breaks for those > who provide help to others... (just some more rambling) I plan to make it just enough to cover expenses (once I start incurring any) and maybe a little more to add extra amenities as needed. A tiered system is probably a good idea. I'd also trade upkeep work (like sweeping, lifting, organizing, hauling, etc.) for membership dues. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 23 21:03:45 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space > >but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the > >red. > > > >Other thoughts and ideas please..... > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > Simple, serve good food of a wide variety, and put it near one of the local > Intel plants. Between Ronlar Acres and Jones Farm would probably be the > best. The down side being that rent around here for the kind of space > needed is probably murder! Do you want to run a vintage computer workshop or a restaurant? There's too much work for in either to do both.. > For places that don't have the advantage of Intel plants to draw a crowd, > I'd suggest placing it near a College. For either including some kind of > gaming set up might be helpful. Both multi-player computer games, and > stuff like "Magic:The Adiction". Hmm, not a bad idea. Start collecting classic arcade games and create a an arcade with classic games. You'd have a good target market: middle-aged people wanting to play the games they enjoyed in their youth with more quarters to spend than they did when they were teens. It could provide a good stream of income to support the museum. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 23 21:16:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? Message-ID: <199903240316.AA01015@world.std.com> < What all is the DEC LK201 used on. I know it works on the Rainbow, Decmat Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >(Disney was a Nazi?) I thought so when I sent the message, but now I'm not so sure... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From bluoval at mindspring.com Tue Mar 23 21:56:01 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: sellers market - firearms References: <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> "Barry A. Watzman" wrote: > E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: Are these reasons official? > First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably the real reason. The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. The second is ridiculous, if Ebay sells the firearms lawfully. How could someone sue Ebay for the sale of a firearm used in a crime? That's like suing a gun store for selling a gun to a person who robbed a bank with it. Unless Ebay doesn't sell the gun(s) according to the law, Ebay will win. Sure, you can sue anyone for anything, but chances are the person suing Ebay for something like that, and winning, is not likely at all! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 23 22:06:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hmm, not a bad idea. Start collecting classic arcade games and create a >an arcade with classic games. You'd have a good target market: >middle-aged people wanting to play the games they enjoyed in their youth >with more quarters to spend than they did when they were teens. It could >provide a good stream of income to support the museum. Sam, you're evil :^) Toying with these poor middle-aged people, proving their reflexes aren't what they used to be. I on the other hand didn't have the reflexes or the quarters. Ah, well at least MAME is finally adding support for "Star Castle" :^) Be aware "Classic Arcades" aren't a huge money maker. Those machines take up a lot of room. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 23 22:26:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: sellers market - firearms In-Reply-To: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> (message from bluoval on Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:56:01 -0500) References: <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <19990324042622.20647.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. > The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. No, it's not, at least under Federal and California laws. Other states don't have jurisdiction, although some of them seem to think they do. eBay is neither the seller nor the buyer of firearms. > but chances are the person suing Ebay for something like that, and winning, > is not likely at all! You obviously don't understand the jackpot theory of jurisprudence. Can we take this discussion elsewhere? From KFergason at aol.com Tue Mar 23 22:28:47 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: sellers market - firearms + 386 upgrade for sale Message-ID: In a message dated 3/23/99 9:59:17 PM Central Standard Time, bluoval@mindspring.com writes: > > E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: > Are these reasons official? > > > First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. > A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. > > The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. When did this become law? State laws vary, but Texas has no such requirement concerning private sales. So that this message will have some on-topic content: I have some Cyrix 386 to 486 clock-doubled upgrade microprocessors. Box says it upgrades the 386DX-16, 20 and 25 Mhz. Part number is Cx485DRx2-25/50. Three of them in shrinkwrap, 1 opened, I have no clue if it was ever used. Best offer within the next few days. Kelly KFergason@aol.com From go at ao.com Tue Mar 23 22:49:49 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <199903240316.AA01015@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990323203314.03c82970@office.ao.com> Just to add to the discussion re Copyright... Just because an entity has granted one of the rights under Copyright does not necessarily cause it to relinquish its remaining rights. U.S. Copyright law (title 17) grants several specific rights to a holder. (see http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/106.html) By my reading, granting the right to reproduce does not automatically convey additional rights, such as creation of derivative works or translation. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or even much of a student of law - just a software producer who occasionally has to look up the rules on this dull, boring stuff... Gary At 10:16 PM 3/23/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I'd say if it was done non-profit and protpper credit given there would be >little room for squawks. I have no idea if that would fly legally, however >intent is sometimes important. > >Allison > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 23 23:31:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990323212607.00b00ad0@mcmanis.com> At 09:16 PM 3/23/99 -0500, Megan wrote: >That is a problem... cost for space. ... at *$8* per sq-ft. Depends on what you look for. Space in "warehouse" districts is cheaper than space in "office" districts which is often cheaper than space in "retail" districts. Sometimes you can find a company that has 'downsized' and is willing to sublet part of their space for more like $1.50 - $3.00 sq ft. The down side is that they will either restrict you to a year, or worse only offer a month to month lease. Nothing worse than moving a collection in 30 days because the lease won't get renewed! Also check your local school district. They are amenable to such arrangements especially if you can become an asset to the district with perhaps "field trip" opportunities and the occasional class room demonstration. I can attest to the fact that a PDP-8 will hold a group of 3rd graders enthralled for an hour easy :-) I hear there are some of the Rt 128 DEC buildings are sitting empty, perhaps they will give you a discount if you only run DEC equipment in them :-) --Chuck From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Mar 23 19:14:24 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E80140260C@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: <199903240613.BAA08630@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Mar 99 at 11:08, Arlen Michaels wrote: > On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > Would stand to reason AES would be a Canadian company. Dorsey now heads > > Voice and Data Systems. A major player in packet technology. Sounds like a > > > > minor version of Corel's Cowpland. Yes Virginia ,Canada does have a > > computer > > aristochracy. > > > Here in Ottawa, old AES boxes used to turn up fairly often. But I don't > recall if they were the 7100 model that Doug described. I think the > Canadian government must have used hundreds of the things for word > processing, and they used to show up in junk stores and even the occasional > garage sale. Haven't seen one for a while, Doug, but I will keep my eyes > open for boot disks or anything else AES, just in case. Also, if you need a > blank hard-sectored floppy to test-feed your uncooperative new house-guest, > send me your address and I'll pop one in the snail-mail. > > -- > Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com > > Sounds like Doug has a head-startt in collecting Canadian-made computers what with the Hyperion and the AES. Now to get an ICON and a MCM 70. I have a couple of clone types. A Tryllium 286 and another, a MAX , a 386 with dreadfull physical attributes, looks like an oversized XT, but nice internal architecture, OEMed by a Quebec company whose name escapes me at the moment. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Mar 24 00:39:08 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. Some questions: 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it seems quite nice. 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives have to be ESDI drives? 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Mark. From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 24 00:46:16 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: sellers market - firearms References: <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <36F88A38.46B1734F@rain.org> "Barry A. Watzman" wrote: > > E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably the real reason. Perhaps, but ebay has always claimed to be a venue, much like the classified ads in the newspaper. Ebay has never (from anything I have read) ever come out and told the reason(s) they stopped the listing of firearms. When fear starts to make decisions such as the firearms decision on ebay, something is really wrong. From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 24 01:11:20 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums References: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36F89018.A27B56EC@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > Does anyone know if there might happen to be any grants or something > equivalent that such an organization might be able to apply for? > > Doing a little more thinking about memberships, I was thinking of > a tiered approach (typical) which ranks members on their level of > usage of the facilities. And maybe there could be breaks for those > who provide help to others... (just some more rambling) I have done some checking into financing such a venture and it appears that, at least out here, seed money could probably be made available. The biggest problem is ongoing support for overhead. Some friends of mine had talked about a number of ways to help support such a venture: Gift Shop Computer Classes ISP Memberships Special events/services for people making larger donations (gotta be careful of the tax code here though) Peripheral Services that could be provided by the older machines Admission charges Monthly Newsletter/Magazine And the list goes on. I think Sam said it best though when he said it takes vision and persistance! It goes without saying that a number of dedicated people with the appropriate time and energy to get it started would be required. Starting life as a 501C3 corp sounds like a good start. Another way that can help ease getting money is to ensure that education is involved for kids; classes, demonstrations, etc. From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Mar 24 01:23:27 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199903240719.CAA18444@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:39:08 -0700 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Mark Gregory To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Hi Mark! Groan! I haven't yet found either 90 or 95! > when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and > the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. That is the time where market is driven by price and ease of upgrades by easily available and inexpensive parts. They realize IBM is selling decent machines but kept to be pigheaded and attack IBM for that. :-( > Some questions: > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > seems quite nice. IBM pigheaded and high royality fee for anyone to build motherboards based on MCA bus. Actually, I find this quality and design beauiful. > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > have to be ESDI drives? That is 95 XP, you have scsi in there by standard when system is built. Both HD and controller card are SCSI, you can swap the controller board for ESDI MCA adapter and a ESDI HD, or aftermarket IDE to MCA adapter card (harder to find!) > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? Yup, 5V only Intel or AMD DX2 66. Got cache slot there, that one with brown connector running appox middle of the complex card? > fine, but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with > a floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? Check that HD for active partition by that pcdos fdisk program, if not, add then reboot. No luck? try fdisk /mbr > > Thanks in advance. > > Mark. > BTW, I have a PS/1 (Still decent built using parity but no cigar to likes of the 90/95 that I'm still looking for.) And a P75 (8573-401). Wizard From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 24 01:23:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions References: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <36F89308.709978AF@rain.org> Mark Gregory wrote: > > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? It sounds like the disk was fdisked, but then the main dos partition was not made active. A less desireable alternative is that the system tracks on the HD are bad. You could also try "fdisk /mbr". From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Mar 24 02:43:53 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Message-ID: <001601be75d2$72b689e0$103cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Mark Gregory wrote: >Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 >portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience >with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember >when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and >the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. > >I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the >power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the >whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with >the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than >with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. I quite like them too. My favourite machine (although I don't have much software installed on it) is a model 76 with a DX2/66 chip, an original IBM XGA monitor and OS/2 2.1 installed. This combination just seems to work really well. Not classic yet though. > >Some questions: > >1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it >seems quite nice. > I don't think it failed completely. It was widely used in corporate situations. Not built for the shoestring home market. EISA competed with it in it's day and avoided an IBM license fee, and later PCI improved on it. >2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives >have to be ESDI drives? > ESDI is ESDI, MFM is MFM and IDE is IDE. They don't mix. >3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with >an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run >their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > That will work fine. >3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at >all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were >passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS >6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, >but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a >floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But >without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? Other than basic stuff like not marking the partition active I don't know about this one. Try checking for bad sectors. Also try fdisk /mbr. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 24 01:54:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: OT: Re: sellers market - firearms In-Reply-To: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen > weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if > someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things > are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably > the real reason. > > The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. The second > is ridiculous, if Ebay sells the firearms lawfully. How could someone > sue Ebay for the sale of a firearm used in a crime? That's like suing > a gun store for selling a gun to a person who robbed a bank with it. Sounds terribly stupid doesn't it? Well, SURPRISE! Its happening! Cities are now going after gun stores to sue them for crimes committed with the guns they sell. You gotta love it! > Unless Ebay doesn't sell the gun(s) according to the law, Ebay will > win. Sure, you can sue anyone for anything, but chances are the person > suing Ebay for something like that, and winning, is not likely at all! You'd be surprised just how assanine certain segments of the population can be. Please no flames. I've marked this as off topic. If you want to deride me do it in private e-mail. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 24 02:07:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Mark Gregory wrote: > Some questions: > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > seems quite nice. Closed architecture? > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > have to be ESDI drives? And ESDI controller is for ESDI drives, just like an IDE controller is for IDE drives. > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? I don't see why not. There might be a clocking issue with the IBM motherboard, i.e. it won't let you set the clock rate like on standard PC motherboards. I wouldn't know, not being a PS/2 expert. > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? Did you format the disk with the "transfer system" option? That would be: format /s c: You can transfer the system after the fact with the following command: sys c: Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 24 02:13:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <36F89018.A27B56EC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote: > > Doing a little more thinking about memberships, I was thinking of > > a tiered approach (typical) which ranks members on their level of > > usage of the facilities. And maybe there could be breaks for those > > who provide help to others... (just some more rambling) > > I have done some checking into financing such a venture and it appears that, > at least out here, seed money could probably be made available. The biggest > problem is ongoing support for overhead. Some friends of mine had talked > about a number of ways to help support such a venture: <...> > And the list goes on. I think Sam said it best though when he said it takes > vision and persistance! It goes without saying that a number of dedicated > people with the appropriate time and energy to get it started would be > required. Starting life as a 501C3 corp sounds like a good start. Another > way that can help ease getting money is to ensure that education is involved > for kids; classes, demonstrations, etc. I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what you can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get interested, more people will show up each month, momentum will develop and eventually, when it makes sense to do so, the effort can move to the next level and then continue to grow from there. Oaks grow from acorns. ;) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Mar 24 02:33:57 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get > SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to > create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what you > can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among > local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get > Oaks grow from acorns. ;) So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern California. If anyone is interested, let me know. I have four working systems right now, and a big Pr1me to get going. I live in Malibu and several Listmembers have already been here on Parts Missions. We can poke, hack, play, watch the magic smoke billow out of things, trade stuff.... anyone interested? After all, Apple, Televideo, and Hewlett-Packard started in garages, and mine is full of dormant computers. (The working stuff is inside... hehehe) Cheers John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 24 02:37:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <199903232247.AA21222@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > >You mean things like GT40 lunar lander, which is (IMHO) a classic game... > > I have the source for that... a copy of the source that Max.B and I > hacked on years ago (1976/77) to get it working on a pdp-11/40 > based VT11/VR14... I think it is more up-to-date than is available > on the web... I'll have to track it down... I had the pleasure of sitting next to Jack Burness, the creator of the original Lunar Lander, at a Computer Museum History Center dinner last year. He's a Director for a company called Real 3D in Orlando, Florida these days. He disappeared before I got a chance to talk to him about getting a copy of the original source code, and asking him if he'd speak at a future VCF, but I have his contact information. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 24 02:38:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, John Lawson wrote: > So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my > house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern > California. If anyone is interested, let me know. I have four > working systems right now, and a big Pr1me to get going. I live in > Malibu and several Listmembers have already been here on Parts > Missions. > > We can poke, hack, play, watch the magic smoke billow out of > things, trade stuff.... anyone interested? I certainly am. I'm hopefully going to make it down to April's TRW swap, so I'll add your garage party to my itinerary. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From black at gco.apana.org.au Wed Mar 24 19:14:24 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: CBM bonanza! Message-ID: <36F98DEF.4ADDFA16@gco.apana.org.au> As anyone who follows any of my posts knows, I'm a dedicate Commie collector-freak. Well, today I scored the jackpot. Went to Glenorchy Tip Shop, one of the women that works there grabbed me & took me out the back (no, my luck hadn't changed) & said "I've been keeping something for you". Some business that had been holding old Commodore inventory dumped 12 removalist boxes (tea chest size) on 'em.... For $50 I scored 6 1571's, 3 1581's, 4 Commodore 128D's, three more 64C's, several CBM modems (1670's), around 40 cartridges, two more MPS 803 printers, two VIC 20's, two Xetec CBM to Centronics adaptors & a multitude of VIC, C64 & C128 software.... everything was still boxed & plastic wrapped.... This'll keep me happy for ..... ohhh.... a week or two :-) (Time to open a Commodore museum I reckon, the house no longer has any room ....... & my partner is threatening to move out.... oh well, the 'puter are more entertaining anyway.....) cheers, Lance From thorh at ismennt.is Wed Mar 24 05:51:30 1999 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990324115130.00871520@pop.ismennt.is> At 18:45 23.3.1999 -0800, you wrote: >>I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >>but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >>red. >> >>Other thoughts and ideas please..... > >>George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com >>Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > >Simple, serve good food of a wide variety, and put it near one of the local >Intel plants. Between Ronlar Acres and Jones Farm would probably be the >best. The down side being that rent around here for the kind of space >needed is probably murder! > >For places that don't have the advantage of Intel plants to draw a crowd, >I'd suggest placing it near a College. For either including some kind of >gaming set up might be helpful. Both multi-player computer games, and >stuff like "Magic:The Adiction". > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > > From thorh at ismennt.is Wed Mar 24 06:05:46 1999 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990324120546.00af3c70@pop.ismennt.is> Sorry, my last E-Mail was plain mistake, I was trying to reply to another letter and did not notice which mailbox-window was active!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thorhallur Ragnarsson Electronics Technician/Instructor Bjarmastig 1 Verkmenntaskolinn Akureyri IS-600 AKUREYRI Box 280 Iceland IS-602 AKUREYRI E-Mail: thorh@ismennt.is Iceland -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 24 09:49:36 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: sellers market - firearms In-Reply-To: <19990324042622.20647.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990324094936.2ea77d5a@intellistar.net> At 04:26 AM 3/24/99 -0000, you wrote: >>> First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. >> The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. > >No, it's not, at least under Federal and California laws. Other states don't >have jurisdiction, although some of them seem to think they do. It's not the law in Florida either. But E-bays action is nothing new. Lots of news-papers and TV stations are refusing to carry gun ads, even if it's a private sale. Funny, since the papers and TV stations are always screaming about "freedom of the press" when it comes to publishing things like the names of rape victum or other things that have no reason to be published. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 24 09:55:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: sellers market - firearms In-Reply-To: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> References: <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990324095527.2ea7cb0a@intellistar.net> At 10:56 PM 3/23/99 -0500, "bluoval" wrote: > > >"Barry A. Watzman" wrote: > >> E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: > >Are these reasons official? > >> First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably the real reason. > >The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. The second is ridiculous, if Ebay sells the firearms lawfully. How could someone sue Ebay for the sale of a firearm used in a crime? That's like suing a gun store for selling a gun to a person who robbed a bank with it. Not as rediculous as it may seem. There have been lots of gun stores sued for that reason. In fact, Walmart was sued for that exact thing a few years ago and they quit carrying handguns because of that suit. Unless Ebay doesn't sell the gun(s) according to the >law, Ebay will win. They will probably win but you have to consider the legal costs. E-bay is a business and if it costs more than they make on gun sales then they'll drop the gun sales. > >Sure, you can sue anyone for anything, but chances are the person suing Ebay for >something like that, and winning, is not likely at all! But E-OverPay isn't willing to take that risk. Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 24 08:26:22 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <36F89018.A27B56EC@rain.org> References: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990324082622.010c77d0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:11 PM 3/23/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I have done some checking into financing such a venture and it appears that, >at least out here, seed money could probably be made available. The biggest >problem is ongoing support for overhead. Some friends of mine had talked >about a number of ways to help support such a venture: I think it would work in Silicon Valley or Seattle. The gift shop could sell all manner of techie trinkets, perhaps handmade by the volunteers from old interesting chips - but that seems in opposition to preservationist efforts. Or you could periodically restore a particular system to working, near-mint condition, and sell it on Ebay. The street finds its uses for things! Media conversion and rescue may be a very profitable sideline, too. What you need is a benefactor. Paul Allen comes to mind - he's funding a few engineers for his PDP recreation, isn't he? - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 24 08:28:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> > I don't know if $500 is the right number either, but I figure that in a >"new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards, >$100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front >panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane >connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account >for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life." You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K, at $5-$6 each. They start adding up fast! And cost of a full-length (22- slot) backplane would come to around $150-$200 these days. (Though you could easily argue that now that we have memory boards larger than 4kbytes you don't need all those slots, all of my real IMSAI's have 22-slot backplanes...!) A year or so ago I looked at what it would cost to make my "TIMSAI" IMSAI clone into a commercial product. Street price, I calculated, would be about $2000, and most of that was in the metalworking. There was only about $30 in semiconductors in the whole unit (and that included 256K SRAM and an IDE/floppy controller). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 24 08:35:14 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: .DSK files. Message-ID: <990324093514.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> >4) to disassociate the LD with the file, > type DISMOUNT LDn: >Sounds like you're getting off a horse! Should have >been, probably, UNMOUNT. Nope, it's DISMOUNT. If you've ever got any such doubts about RT-11 commands, just type HELP, or if you don't have a RT-11 system handy at the moment: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/rthelp/ gives you the RT-11 5.7 HELP information. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 24 08:38:29 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: .DSK files. Message-ID: <990324093829.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> > I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist >on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . > Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? Others have already told you about MOUNT, but if you just want easy access to the unpacked files, all the RT-11 DECUS SIG tapes (about 300 Megabytes worth) are available by anonymous FTP from ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/ Just FTP there from your RT-11 system and you're set! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Mar 24 08:43:57 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990324064357.00976db0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:39 23-03-1999 -0700, you wrote: >I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the >power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the >whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with Yeppers. I've got a Model 85 and a 95 here. If your M95 came with a Type 4 CPU complex, I'm really going to get jealous! ;-) >1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it >seems quite nice. It was. Most folks, myself included, believe it failed because IBM wanted to keep the patent on it and wouldn't license it for anything less than a king's ransom to anyone else. On top of that, even after the license, they wanted to extract royalties for every MCA-capable machine built. The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines was NCR with some of their larger servers. In essence, IBM's own greed and arrogance killed MCA in the market. Had they declared it 'open,' as ISA was, I firmly believe we'd all be MCA'ers to this day. >2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives >have to be ESDI drives? No, they must be ESDI drives. The only thing ESDI has in common with MFM/RLL is the cabling. >3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with >an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run >their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? You should be able to up it to at least a DX2-66. However, don't count on an overdrive chip running in the thing. PS/2's are notoriously picky about their hardware. >but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a >floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But >without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? I've seen behavior like that before. It usually means the hard drive is kaput. As it turns out, I have a spare hard drive for a P70/386 that's just gathering dust here. Perhaps we can work a trade or a cheap sale? I promise I won't gouge. ;-) Another option is to install a third-party SCSI adapter, such as an Adaptec 1640 or Future Domain card, and stick a SCSI drive in there. Bear in mind that you'll need to do some minor mechanical surgery to the drive bracket since the holes are non-standard spacing. Can you tell I just went through all this? ;-) Yes, I have a nice P70 portable that has, thanks to installation of a 486 upgrade card and SCSI adapter, been converted to be a portable testbed for SCSI devices. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 24 08:44:04 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Message-ID: <73efd581.36f8fa34@aol.com> In a message dated 24.3.1999 1:41:26 Eastern Standard Time, gregorym@cadvision.com writes: > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > seems quite nice. > > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > have to be ESDI drives? > > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? > ah, the PS/2 models, my favourite. truly state of the art for the time. Its my opinion that MCA didnt fail. Look at all the ps2 stuff you'll find at hamfests and company surplus. I have lots of old software that mentions compatibilties with ps2s, even netware 2.2! One reason I was told it was discontinued was that around 1994, MCA was starting to conflict with the PCI bus machines that were coming out. the model 95 you have is pretty nice. plenty of drive bays and DMA io ports, parity or ECC mem, SCSI with cache, selectable boot drive, worldwide power supply and even that little LED panel that you can even make it say what you want. I know there were 25mhz models upgradeable to 33mhz and a pentium upgrade somewhere. IBM still has their parts counter in boulder, CO. http://www.direct.ibm.com david From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Wed Mar 24 08:52:50 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: FW: PDP-11/83 looking for good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36fafbeb.845132376@smtp.jps.net> Arrrgh! Why couldn't this guy have been in north Seattle or something? I've been hunting for an 11/83! Anyone in Ohio looking for a nice PDP in a Worldbox? Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 -0500, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: matuscak@rohrer.com (Joe Matuscak) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: PDP-11/83 looking for good home >>Message-ID: >>X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 >>Lines: 13 >>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 -0500 >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.200.18 >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@neo.rr.com >>X-Trace: dustdevil.neo.rr.com 922285509 204.210.200.18 (Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 EDT) >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 EDT >>Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!newsbox.grin.net!pants.skycache.com!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.210.223.23!dustdevil.neo.rr.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:89 >> >>We have a PDP-11/83 system (BA123 worldbox, 2 DHQ11, RD54, TK50, LA120, >>LA324) that is looking for a home. It's running MicroRSTS and is working. >>We are located in northeast Ohio. Call or email me. >> >>Thanks, >> >>-- >>Joe Matuscak >>Rohrer Corporation >>717 Seville Road >>Wadsworth, Ohio 44281 >>(330)335-1541 >>matuscak@rohrer.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Wed Mar 24 08:56:12 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: More details was: HP stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990323191206.48d7a29c@intellistar.net> References: < Message-ID: > At 03:37 PM 3/23/99 +0000, you wrote: >>Hello everyone. >>Here's a list of all the HP stuff we have here. >>They have to be out of here ASAP. But, I'll try to hang on to them >>for as long as I can. I'd like to find homes for them. >>I would also like any info any of you possibly have on them. Like, >>what exactly are they - what do they do? >> >>9000 345 >>7958 B >>7959 B >>32-track 9145 A >> >>there is also one keyboard and a 46087 B Mech Eng Series 10 Pad > > I was wrong, this isn't the 20 key keypad. It's a A4 size digitizer. > > >>a PaintWriter XL > > Printer. I knew that one... ;)= Just mentioning it for anyone that would like it. And I haven't checked if it works. >>the 98785 A screens > > 16 inch high resolution, 1024 x768 color monitor with 60 Hz refresh > rate. it works with the 98547 video card. Thanks for this extra info (as well as for the previous, of course). I think I will keep all the 'pizza-box' size stuff and two of the screens. And the keyboard and dig pad. But, not the plotters or printer and the rest of the screens. Seems though that there isn't enough stuff to get it all working like it once used to. And no sign of any of the media. Thanks, Nasos. From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 24 10:00:46 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: sellers market - firearms In-Reply-To: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Seriously off-topic, but hey, I didn't start it this time. On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > "Barry A. Watzman" wrote: > > > E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: > > > First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably the real reason. > > The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. The second is ridiculous, if Ebay sells the firearms lawfully. How could someone sue Ebay for the sale of a firearm used in a crime? That's like suing a gun store for selling a gun to a person who robbed a bank with it. Unless Ebay doesn't sell the gun(s) according to the > law, Ebay will win. Sure, you can sue anyone for anything, but chances are the person suing Ebay for something like that, and winning, is not likely at all! Last I checked, Ebay isn't the salesman anyway, it's the auction house and it never has posession of the merchandise sold. Not that it matters in the current atmosphere, remember that last month a lawyer in a black robe in Brooklyn awarded millions of dollars in damages to a gang member shot in a gunfight and since nobody knew what brand of gun was used, a dozen or more manufacturers are being made to pay. Oh, and if a gun is sold across state lines, it has to be shipped to a federally licensed dealer anyway under a federal law of highly questionable constitutionality (enacted because Lee Oswald bought his rifle from a mail-order catalog). Ebay would be in the same legal position as a newspaper or magazine that printed a want-ad. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 24 10:36:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990324064357.00976db0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines was NCR > with some of their larger servers. Nope. Well before NCR licensed it, there was the Tandy 5000MC. The first MCA machine on the market without bus-mastering crippled the way it was on IBM's own early MCA systems. A damned fine machine which of course sank like a stone. An uglier death than the Tandy 2000 sufferred. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 24 10:28:36 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: More details was: HP stuff Message-ID: <199903241628.AA26641@world.std.com> >I'd need the part number to be sure... but... if that's what I think it >is you're a very lucky camper. >That sounds like the HP Network Analyzer. It is sold as a Laptop unit >with custom HP network monitoring software. It is an HP4972A... Lan Protocol Analyzer 68010 processor Bootrom 4.0 keyboard Graphics HP-IB HP98628 at 20 2096992 bytes >If that's what I think it is - it is a CURRENT product, and sells for >anywhere from $15,000.00 to $60,000.00 depending on the options it has. wow... I didn't know that... I'm still using it at work... but need for it is waning a little, what with FDDI, Token Ring, ATM, etc... (unless it has options for other network media) I'll have to find out what price I might be able to get it for when/if it is excessed... it may be beyond me... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Mar 24 10:55:15 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: .DSK files. In-Reply-To: <990324093829.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist > >on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . > > Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? > > Others have already told you about MOUNT, but if you just want easy > access to the unpacked files, all the RT-11 DECUS SIG tapes (about 300 > Megabytes worth) are available by anonymous FTP from Actually I have worked out how to use the 9trker and it seems to be functional. At least I can PIP stuff back and forth and perform the few tape ops that I know how to do. Thanks to all who helped me with getting this part of the 11/44 running! > > ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/ > > Just FTP there from your RT-11 system and you're set! Tim, thanks (as always!) for your help. I have many of your posts and advice archived and indexed, so I don't have to keep asking the same newbie questions for each system I bring up. I may be going about this all wrong. Firstly FTPing stuff implies an FTP client on the target system and a modem. Modems I have, but how to get RSTS to talk to them is not clear to me at this point on my learning curve. Acquiring and installing Kermit and/or FTP software is something I want to do, but have no clue presently. All in due time I suppose. Secondly, since I am most familiar with RT11, and since the is an RT11 run-time system under RSTS, I just sorta figured that I needed to un-pack the file under RT11... this is probably an erroneous assumption on my part. BUT: Do I really need RT11 to use the programs on the tapes, if they will work under RSTS? I imagine not... so the real question is, can I unpack the .DSK file uner RSTS V9.7? I have the 'help' files but no RSTS Doc. I have RT11 doc V2, V3, V4, and V5. 400lbs of Orange binders..... Next thing I want for the System is to install a brace of RL02s so I can plow thru the 60 or so disks I have, to see what's on 'em. Cheers John From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Mar 24 10:55:24 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 24, 99 11:36:49 am Message-ID: <199903241655.IAA06379@saul3.u.washington.edu> Ward Griffiths wrote: > On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > > The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines was NCR > > with some of their larger servers. > Nope. Well before NCR licensed it, there was the Tandy 5000MC. The > first MCA machine on the market without bus-mastering crippled the > way it was on IBM's own early MCA systems. A damned fine machine > which of course sank like a stone. An uglier death than the Tandy > 2000 sufferred. I had to read your description of the Tandy's bus about three times. The sentence is very confusing. You're saying the early IBM systems had crippled bus matering, right? And the Tandy didn't? And I'd like to hear more about the 2000 too. I got the impression that the 5000MC disappeared quickly and quietly; in a way that's better than a long drawn-out death (which it sounds like the 2000 had). Do you disagree? Do I have my facts wrong? -- Derek From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 24 11:14:18 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: .DSK files. Message-ID: <990324121418.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> >> ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/ >> >> Just FTP there from your RT-11 system and you're set! > I may be going about this all wrong. > Firstly FTPing stuff implies an FTP client on the target system >and a modem. Modems I have, but how to get RSTS to talk to them is >not clear to me at this point on my learning curve. Acquiring and >installing Kermit and/or FTP software is something I want to do, but >have no clue presently. All in due time I suppose. I don't know of any FTP for a RSTS/E (or RSTS) machine, but there are several commercial and one freeware package for real RT-11 internet connectivity. See http://shop-pdp.kent.edu/ for information on the freeware package. > BUT: Do I really need RT11 to use the programs on the tapes, if >they will work under RSTS? I imagine not... so the real question is, >can I unpack the .DSK file uner RSTS V9.7? Good question! If there's some way that you can do a "file to device" copy under RSTS/E, then you'll be able to copy the .DSK to a real disk and then mount that as a RT-11 volume. I've never done this on RSTS/E, but if you ask where all the experts hang out (comp.os.rsts) you'll probably get a good answer. Note that I've written several tools for manipulating RT-11 .DSK files on "foreign" systems, and many classic Unices shipped with similar tools. The RT-11 filesystem is simple enough that such tools are easy to write. See http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/ldtools/extract.for for a tool that I've suggested in the past when folks have asked "how can I read a .DSK without a real RT-11 system?" -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From stan at netcom.com Wed Mar 24 11:22:51 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:19 2005 Subject: More details was: HP stuff References: <199903241628.AA26641@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36F91F6B.86D779DB@netcom.com> Megan wrote: [snip...] > It is an HP4972A... Lan Protocol Analyzer > > 68010 processor > Bootrom 4.0 > keyboard > Graphics > HP-IB > HP98628 at 20 > 2096992 bytes > [snip...] > I'll have to find out what price I might be able to get it for when/if > it is excessed... it may be beyond me... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer [snip...] Megan, The HP 4972A is an older product (late-80's to early-90's vintage) that is basically a portable HP 9000 Series 200 workstation with add-on network analysis hardware. It boots the HP Pascal core OS and then loads the network analyzer specific software. It was last listed in the 1993 HP catalog, and sold at that time for $21,000 (base price). It is very flexible in terms of triggering, capturing, and display of captured data and statistics, but (AFAIK) it is limited to 10 Mbps network speeds. If you wanted to, you could install HP Workstation Basic, the "full" version of HP Pascal, and/or perhaps even HPL on this system and selectively boot into any of them. The internal hard drive is the same as found in the 9153 series drives, so it is probably in the 10 to 20 MByte range. That means that there's not a lot of room for extraneous stuff, but you could always attach an external drive to the HP-IB port... To give you a rough idea of its worth, I've seen them sold by private individuals in the $250-$500 range, depending on options, condition, etc. Dealers ask substantially more for them (of course). Hope this helps! Stan From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 24 11:35:07 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <01be761c$a8fbf900$f2c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Museums >>Saxonville, Mass. When I called, I was told that all they had left was >>a 2500 sq-ft area... at *$8* per sq-ft. That's US$20000 (I believe for >>a year), $1667/month. If this could be a club formed as a non-profit >>organization, and if I could get $10/month out of people, we'd need >>167 members just to pay for the space... Then we have electric, which >>I would suspect will be a major part of the cost for such a power-oriented >>hobby. > >Don't forget this is America, land of the lawsuit, something like this >would potentially need some hefty insurance because of all the "dangerous >items". > I would also imagine the museum brick and morter will have to be electronically shielded to allow things like trs-80 mod 1s to operate in a commercial zone. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 24 12:15:09 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <199903241655.IAA06379@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Ward Griffiths wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > > The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines was NCR > > > with some of their larger servers. > > > Nope. Well before NCR licensed it, there was the Tandy 5000MC. The > > first MCA machine on the market without bus-mastering crippled the > > way it was on IBM's own early MCA systems. A damned fine machine > > which of course sank like a stone. An uglier death than the Tandy > > 2000 sufferred. > > I had to read your description of the Tandy's bus about three times. The > sentence is very confusing. You're saying the early IBM systems had > crippled bus matering, right? And the Tandy didn't? It was a decision made by IBM's marketroids. I'm told the conversation went something like this: Engineer: (explains the concept of bus-mastering) Marketroid: Now let me get this straight. A customer can buy a Model 50 from us (286), then a few months later purchase a '386 card from somebody else, plug it in and he's effectively got a Model 80? Engineer: Yup! Ain't it cool? Marketroid: I don't think so. > And I'd like to hear more about the 2000 too. I got the impression that the > 5000MC disappeared quickly and quietly; in a way that's better than a long > drawn-out death (which it sounds like the 2000 had). Do you disagree? Do I > have my facts wrong? The Tandy 2000 was a machine based on an 8 Mhz 80186 cpu that came out about a year before the IBM PC/AT. True 16-bit, better graphics than just about anything else on the market, screamingly fast for the time. Ran MS-DOS 2.0 to 2.11. Because the 80186 did not have the degree of compatibility with the 8088 that the 80286 had, many programs dependent on PC-specific memory map and hardware (i.e. most graphics programs) didn't run, though programs that were well-behaved, accessing the hardware through MS-DOS system calls like everything was supposed to, ran fine. Of course, most game and graphics programs skipped the DOS calls to get performance. The expansion bus was proprietary, since there wasn't a "standard" 16-bit PC bus until the AT arrived on the scene. The Tandy 2000 was also the first PC-type machine to come with 12 function keys along the top of the keyboard -- I still consider the Tandy 2000 keyboard to be the second best ever made (after the AT&T Unix PC keyboard). Other features? 640x400 mono or 16-color (with optional card) graphics. RAM to 768k. Came with dual 720k 5.25 floppies or one floppy and 10 Mb HD. I've got to get another one to replace the machine I left with my ex-wife. Well, only a few weeks till the Trenton Computer Festival, might be one there. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 24 12:16:19 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <01be7622$6a87c180$f2c962cf@devlaptop> Someone else mentioned a inter 'library/museum' loan system that I think can also be ironed out. I'd like to schedule a few checkouts and I also have some diverse stuff that could go on the circut... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 24 12:44:44 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324100551.4b2f7bf2@ricochet.net> At 05:15 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT >ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET >VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way >ebay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price Are you referring to something eBay does specifically, or to auctions in general? If the latter, you need to go a little further back in history than eBay to place blame. >The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and >should not define what the rest of us should have to pay! No, but it does define what an opportunist can expect other idiots to pay. And until there are no more idiots, there will always be opportunists waiting in line to separate them from their money. >Without ebay, do you honestly think that people would be regularly paying >$3,000 for Altairs and IMSAIs? Of course not! Take ebay, remove their >silly auction mechanisms, replace them with a basic best-offer paradigm Sure they would, but they would be doing it through small ads in the back of InfoWorld, Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, etc. And instead of ending up in the hands of someone like Alex (no offense, Alex!) who actually knows what they are and will preserve them, if not actually use them, they would end up on Mrs. Rittenhouse's coffee table being used as a magazine rack. If you don't believe me, take a look in the back of the NYer, Smithsonian, etc. and you'll see all kinds of artifacts listed for sale as decorative items. (Things like carousel horses, radios, old sewing machines, gas station pumps, etc.) >Appreciate sure, but based on rational, measurable attributes. But to be Everything appreciates in value *solely* based on the quantity available, number of people who want it, and the ability of the current owner to contact as many of the potential market as possible. If I've got the only fliggleblaster in the world, and there are 200 people who want one, the value will go up *if* I can get in touch with those 200 people. If instead, I look at my fliggleblaster and think "Geez, look at this old P.O.S., nobody would ever want this" and stick it back on the shelf, its value is nil. Likewise, if I post it on eBay, and exactly 0 people in the world want one, it won't sell for even a cent. But, when you can get in touch with buyers, and they're actually interested, then your value goes up. The more buyers, the more uncommon the item, the higher the price. That's why auctions have been around for centuries. All eBay does is put sellers in touch with potential buyers. (And yes, people know the word "Altair", but that simply affects the number of people interested; it's not eBay's fault.) >There is hoarding going on by individuals hoping to cash in years from now >when they expect this ridiculous craze to hit a fevered pitch. At the >rate we're going, if this keeps up then nobody will be able to afford >anything older than 1990, and that will be a god damn shame. There was a guy (whose name escapes me at the moment) who advertised in all the papers that he would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a particular coin (and yes, I should know the details). No one ever found one; he knew that all 5 examples were already accounted for. But, it got people looking at their pocket change, and offering him other old/interesting coins. He built quite a business out of it too. And I know a number of people who regularly take trips to Mexico, the Philippines, etc. looking for antiques that they buy dirt cheap, bring back to the states, and sell for outrageous prices to collectors and decorators. As long as there are idiots out there... All you can do is kill all the stupid people. (Or, kill all the greedy people, but they reproduce faster than you can make bullets. Hmmm... For that matter, stupid people reproduce even faster. Sorry.) >them). But when people realize that there is an alternative, they may >forsake ebay altogether in preference to a more sane environment like a >buy/sell/trade board. You WILL build a loyal following eventually and you You will build a loyal following of eBay sellers who buy stuff cheap from you and sell it for $$$ on eBay. Duh. Sure, sell me an Altair for $50, and watch me fidget and squirm as I try not to parlay that into a new bathroom because of "principles". >That's a silly statement. Of course you see no alternatives because no >one yet has dared tried to build one. Instead of being discouraging, its Um, actually, there is an alternative, and Marvin has mentioned it once or twice. Build a reputation and those that are not simply after $$$ will give their computers to you. There's nothing you can do about the guy who wants $10K for his vic-20 and not a penny less, but the guy who wants his beloved Sharp PC-5000 to have a good home may just send it to you for the cost of shipping. As for collector-to-collector trades, there is a medium for that as well, and you're looking at it. >Ebay has done nothing but to cut out the footwork for the lazy people, >and charge them a premium for it. Ta-da! And there you have it. The secret of getting rich. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 24 13:58:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: (message from John Lawson on Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:33:57 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990324195829.24987.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Lawson wrote: > So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my > house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern > California. If anyone is interested, let me know. Well, geez! You rotten &*$%! :-) I thought I could exercise restraint and not drive down there for the swap meet. But if you're going to pull a stunt like this... Sounds like fun! When is the swap meet? Until now I've been deliberately avoiding learning the details. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 24 14:00:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:37:08 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990324200045.25016.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > I had the pleasure of sitting next to Jack Burness, the creator of the > original Lunar Lander, at a Computer Museum History Center dinner last > year. [...] He disappeared before I got a chance to talk to him about > getting a copy of the original source code, You can find it here: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ > and asking him if he'd speak at a future > VCF, but I have his contact information. That would be awesome! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 24 14:04:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990324082622.010c77d0@vpwisfirewall> (message from John Foust on Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:26:22 -0600) References: <199903240216.AA16576@world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19990324082622.010c77d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <19990324200446.25052.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > I think it would work in Silicon Valley or Seattle. The gift shop > could sell all manner of techie trinkets, perhaps handmade by the > volunteers from old interesting chips Yeah! Maybe we could find a working PDP-6 (out of only 23 that were made), pull out all the modules, and sell them in the gift shop for a few dollars each. Don't laugh. It's been done. :-( From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 24 14:06:14 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19990324200614.25065.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series > switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K, > at $5-$6 each. Hmmm... does that include the handles? Are the correct colors available? My IMSAI switches are all intact (and factory-original AFAIK), but it wouldn't hurt to get some spares. From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 24 14:02:15 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <01be7631$36ec8d60$f2c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Museums >John Lawson wrote: >> So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my >> house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern >> California. If anyone is interested, let me know. > >Well, geez! You rotten &*$%! :-) ok, now how close are you to an airport again? :) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Mar 24 14:34:14 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <19990324200614.25065.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 24 Mar 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series > > switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K, > > at $5-$6 each. > > Hmmm... does that include the handles? Are the correct colors available? > > My IMSAI switches are all intact (and factory-original AFAIK), but it wouldn't > hurt to get some spares. I have both the levers and switches (in the original colors) available thru the 'Garage'... (check the 'objects/items available...' page for details) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Mar 24 14:41:48 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <01be7631$36ec8d60$f2c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > > >John Lawson wrote: > >> So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my > >> house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern > >> California. If anyone is interested, let me know. > > > >Well, geez! You rotten &*$%! :-) > > ok, now how close are you to an airport again? :) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net Ok... hating to be out done (but probably at a disadvantage since I don't have a monthly swap meet to align with), if there is sufficient interest (and people in the area) I'd consider doing the same thing at the 'Garage'... (the 'area' being Beaverton, Oregon BTW) Altho... in leu of a swap meet (we do have one twice a year tho...) we could perhaps have a scrounge (archaeological dig?) at my warehouse... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill at chipware.com Wed Mar 24 14:52:56 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201be7638$4b21b920$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> James Willing wrote: > Altho... in leu of a swap meet (we do have one twice a year tho...) we > could perhaps have a scrounge (archaeological dig?) at my warehouse... > B^} Finders Keepers?!?!?! I'll be on the next flight out! From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Mar 24 09:54:35 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199903242054.PAA25712@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Mar 99 at 23:39, Mark Gregory wrote: > Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 > portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience > with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember > when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and > the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. > > I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the > power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the > whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with > the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than > with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. > The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine. Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model), 8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several spares. Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line. MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily disassembled. > Some questions: > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > seems quite nice. > MCA, EISA, and the price. The 8580 sold for $10,000 bare. It's still used quite extensively in the corporate world tho. > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > have to be ESDI drives? > As others have mentioned ESDI is ESDI, but cards are available for IDE or SCSI. > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices. There are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup can apprise you of. > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? > > Thanks in advance. > There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the newsgroup. Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when fomatting there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this problem. http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm > Mark. > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 24 15:00:19 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324121129.42073bd8@ricochet.net> At 11:34 AM 3/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >the belief that no one will outbid that value, and then abort the >transaction after the auction ends. This gets the auctioneer paid at the >seller's expense, yet costs me nothing. Next month I use a different email >account to identify myself, and all's well with eBay. Actually, if the item doesn't sell (bidder backs out) the seller doesn't have to pay eBay. And it does cost you something -- negative feedback on the old account and no feedback on the new account. Destroys that sense of trust everyone is so fond of. (And I seem to recall someone mentioning that eBay requires a credit card if you're coming from one of the free services.) BTW, everyone pisses and moans about eBay in regards to classic computers, but they forget that you *can* get really good deals on other types of collectibles through eBay. (I've gotten deals on: cookware, donald duck stuff, miniature land rovers, buttons, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 24 15:00:23 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324123603.5f471d3a@ricochet.net> At 11:08 AM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not >understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they >really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low >prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more >[given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder ..... Well said. >But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of >"Bonded Buyers and Sellers", Sounds a lot like a high feedback rating to me... >in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both >buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. except that that opens eBay up to a lot of legal responsibility that they're probably quite happy to avoid. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 24 15:00:27 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324125037.5f3782f8@ricochet.net> >If I sell to you for $50 when someone else offers $500, the blame is on me >for taking less than the highest offer, Keep in mind that money is not the only method of payment. That situation could easily be $500 cash or $50 and a promise to care for it the way you would want it to be cared for. >You've undoubtedly read my comments about the low (70%) completion rate [...] >walk away, having ruined the auction by bidding out the more serious >bidders, when there was no serious commitment to buy. A couple of comments: sellers can (and often do) contact the second highest bidder if the first "walks away". Also, I think there may be other reasons for backing out than the malicious attacks on sellers suggested earlier. Shipping might be one reason (I recently "walked away" from a couple of DEC computers I bought on eBay because of the shipping. (I'm sending the guy the full bid amount plus shipping on the items I *do* want; he was nice enough to throw in a couple other computers to replace the ones I didn't want!)) In any case, a 70% completion rate is not necessarily a sign of people artificially raising bid prices with no intention of following through. >EBay does charge the would-be seller a fee based on the final bid price and >not on the actual selling price. It benefits them to have the prices as >high as they will go. Okay, so yes, the eBay people sit there, rubbing their hands and cackling gleefully as they watch the selling prices for altairs soar through the roof. But what is it that they do (other than provide the service) to encourage the higher selling prices? >My belief on this matter is that the very thing which drives the prices up >is also the thing that causes the high transaction failure rate. but eBay doesn't get paid if the trx falls through, so it would make sense for eBay to prefer a lower commission on a smaller sale than no commission on a sale that doesn't go through. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 24 15:14:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <990324161455.20200e75@trailing-edge.com> Eric Smith wrote: >Tim Shoppa wrote: >> You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series >> switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K, >> at $5-$6 each. >Hmmm... does that include the handles? Yep. The relevant part numbers for the switches are C&K 7101-J4-Z-Q-E and 7105-J4-Z-Q-E. >Are the correct colors available? C&K was the OEM for the IMSAI switches, and the colors will match what your IMSAI switches looked like when new. (If you've had yours exposed to sunlight, it's possible that the colors have faded.) NKK makes a very similar line of switches, but the colors are very slightly different. >My IMSAI switches are all intact (and factory-original AFAIK), but it wouldn't >hurt to get some spares. If you only need a few, Jim Willing is the guy to buy them from. When I was building TIMSAI's, I needed a few hundred and got a considerable price break by buying from a C&K distributor. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 24 15:18:39 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums References: <19990324195829.24987.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <36F956AF.3D743056@rain.org> Eric Smith wrote: > > John Lawson wrote: > > So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my > > house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern > > California. If anyone is interested, let me know. > > Well, geez! You rotten &*$%! :-) Well, that is John for you; always instigating :). > > I thought I could exercise restraint and not drive down there > for the swap meet. But if you're going to pull a stunt like this... > > Sounds like fun! When is the swap meet? Until now I've been deliberately > avoiding learning the details. TRW is ALWAYS the last Saturday of the month, rain or shine, Christmas, or whatever from 7:00am - 11:00am (but a lot of the bargains get snapped up while the sellers are still waiting to be let in.) It really is a lot of fun. I have had the pleasure of meeting several people from the list down there ... Hmmm, come to think of it, that is how I met John (through this list.) From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 24 15:20:17 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI References: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> <19990324200614.25065.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <36F95711.66B5F987@rain.org> Eric Smith wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series > > switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K, > > at $5-$6 each. > > Hmmm... does that include the handles? Are the correct colors available? > > My IMSAI switches are all intact (and factory-original AFAIK), but it wouldn't > hurt to get some spares. I was down at Alltronics a while ago, and they had the IMSAI style switches for about $1.25 each (surplus of course.) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 24 15:09:58 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Message-ID: In a message dated 24.3.1999 15:57:21 Eastern Standard Time, lwalker@mail.interlog.com writes: > > Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 > > portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience > > with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember > > when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and > > the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. > > > > I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the > > power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and > the > > whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with > > the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play > than > > with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. > > > The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine. > Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the > MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model), > 8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest > at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line > and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several > spares. > Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line. > MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the > availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily > disassembled. > > > Some questions: > > > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > > seems quite nice. > > > MCA, EISA, and the price. The 8580 sold for $10,000 bare. It's still used > quite > extensively in the corporate world tho. > > > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > > have to be ESDI drives? > > > As others have mentioned ESDI is ESDI, but cards are available for IDE or > SCSI. > > > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > > > IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices. > There > are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup > can apprise you of. > > > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC- DOS > > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > > > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the > newsgroup. > Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when > fomatting > there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't > remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also > check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this > problem. > > http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm > you can also visit IBM canada at: www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html there is info on family 1 and ps2 products. I got from a good source that the reason MCA was discontinued was because if the bus speed was increased in order to keep up with PCI, that would have started encroaching on the RS/6K machines. Also, MCA was expensive because extensive development had to be done to every card. Every MCA option/device was GUARANTEED to work. None of this plugandpray stuff. supr 'love my PS/2s' dave From red at bears.org Wed Mar 24 15:41:49 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990324064357.00976db0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines > was NCR with some of their larger servers. There were a few manufacturers. The June (July?) 1989 issue of Byte (I think it was Byte) had an overview of the then brand-new EISA bus, and reviews of the first MCA clones. The verdict was that none were particularly compatible. I recall Tandy made one of the clones, but nothing about any of the other five or so they reviewed. ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 24 15:44:47 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Message-ID: <990324164447.20200e75@trailing-edge.com> >there is info on family 1 and ps2 products. I got from a good source that the >reason MCA was discontinued was because if the bus speed was increased in >order to keep up with PCI, that would have started encroaching on the RS/6K >machines. That's an extremely confusing statement, as MCA is quite common in many small-to-medium RS/6000's from just a few years ago. How can MCA compete against RS/6000's when it's part of many RS/6000's? I'm also confused by your statement that "MCA was discontinued", as IBM continues to sell RS/6000's (both the R50 and the SP system 9076 are listed in their February 1999 sales brochure) with MCA busses and MCA cards and MCA peripherals. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Mar 24 16:22:50 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <01be7631$36ec8d60$f2c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: Well... there is a lot of interest in the 'garage get-together'. So I should really get logistical now. So we can make Plans: I need a little prep time if I'm going to be entertaining... right now there is literally no room in my house for more than three folks, one of them being me. I had planned on moving a good deal of gear this weekend. I would like to kick off the SoCal After-TRW Consort Logicel Ancien **NEXT MONTH** ie in April, the weekend of the 24th. I will be working until 10PM friday night and saturday's the swap here. Everyone who is interested please e-mail me so I have an idea of who might be coming.. I live in a rather rural area of LA so there are those issues to be dealt with. Anyone planning on travelling from out of the local area please get with me to nail down times and routes and other fussy bookkeeping. Again>>>> NEXT MONTH (April 24th) for the 1st SoCal CLA meet) Cool? John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 24 18:10:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: CBM bonanza! In-Reply-To: <36F98DEF.4ADDFA16@gco.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990324181042.3c876330@intellistar.net> At 08:14 PM 3/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >As anyone who follows any of my posts knows, I'm a dedicate Commie >collector-freak. Well, today I scored the jackpot. Went to Glenorchy Tip >Shop, one of the women that works there grabbed me & took me out the >back (no, my luck hadn't changed) Lance, Whatta ya mean you didn't get lucky! Sounds pretty lucky to me! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 24 18:20:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990324182012.3b9725ac@intellistar.net> At 09:28 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Tim wrote: > >A year or so ago I looked at what it would cost to make my "TIMSAI" IMSAI >clone into a commercial product. Street price, I calculated, would be about >$2000, and most of that was in the metalworking. There was only about $30 >in semiconductors in the whole unit (and that included 256K SRAM and an >IDE/floppy controller). That's exactly why people don't build kits any more. The price so the individual parts is higher than the cost of the commercaily assembled finished product. You need to find a surplus case that you can use. That would save a lot of money. Ditto the power supply and as many other parts as possible. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 24 16:40:59 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions Message-ID: <6dd5ced4.36f969fb@aol.com> In a message dated 24.3.1999 16:47:20 Eastern Standard Time, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com writes: > That's an extremely confusing statement, as MCA is quite common in > many small-to-medium RS/6000's from just a few years ago. How can > MCA compete against RS/6000's when it's part of many RS/6000's? > > I'm also confused by your statement that "MCA was discontinued", as IBM > continues to sell RS/6000's (both the R50 and the SP system 9076 are listed > in their February 1999 sales brochure) with MCA busses and MCA > cards and MCA peripherals. well, the person I asked didnt expound on his answer. Remember that big blue has different brands and I can only assume that the R6K division didnt like the PC company giving it competition. correction: for CONSUMER machines, MCA was discontinued unfortunately. From bluoval at mindspring.com Wed Mar 24 16:43:31 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: OT: Re: sellers market - firearms References: Message-ID: <36F96A93.81CE7749@mindspring.com> The Devil is laughing his ass off. Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > > > First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen > > weapons. A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. Second, if > > someone were assaulted with a weapon bought on E-Bay, the way things > > are going, E-Bay could be sued, and lose, BIG TIME. That's probably > > the real reason. > > > > The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. The second > > is ridiculous, if Ebay sells the firearms lawfully. How could someone > > sue Ebay for the sale of a firearm used in a crime? That's like suing > > a gun store for selling a gun to a person who robbed a bank with it. > > Sounds terribly stupid doesn't it? Well, SURPRISE! Its happening! > Cities are now going after gun stores to sue them for crimes committed > with the guns they sell. > > You gotta love it! > > > Unless Ebay doesn't sell the gun(s) according to the law, Ebay will > > win. Sure, you can sue anyone for anything, but chances are the person > > suing Ebay for something like that, and winning, is not likely at all! > > You'd be surprised just how assanine certain segments of the population > can be. > > Please no flames. I've marked this as off topic. If you want to deride > me do it in private e-mail. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 24 18:56:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Next monitors Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990324185622.485fb59e@intellistar.net> Anyone need any of these? I found two pallets of them at a scrap place. Looks like 16", 19" and 21" MegaPixel models. Joe From bluoval at mindspring.com Wed Mar 24 16:52:18 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI References: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <36F96CA2.A15F68ED@mindspring.com> Why not just build a kit w/out the case, or sell the case seperate? I'd gladly buy a kit like that and install it in a metal file cabinet. That'll cut the costs, if metalwork is that expensive. CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I don't know if $500 is the right number either, but I figure that in a > >"new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards, > >$100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front > >panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane > >connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account > >for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life." > > You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series > switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K, > at $5-$6 each. They start adding up fast! And cost of a full-length (22- > slot) backplane would come to around $150-$200 these days. (Though you > could easily argue that now that we have memory boards larger than 4kbytes > you don't need all those slots, all of my real IMSAI's have 22-slot > backplanes...!) > > A year or so ago I looked at what it would cost to make my "TIMSAI" IMSAI > clone into a commercial product. Street price, I calculated, would be about > $2000, and most of that was in the metalworking. There was only about $30 > in semiconductors in the whole unit (and that included 256K SRAM and an > IDE/floppy controller). > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From bluoval at mindspring.com Wed Mar 24 16:53:48 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: sellers market - firearms References: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> <3.0.1.16.19990324094936.2ea77d5a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36F96CFC.CAAE18B0@mindspring.com> It is in Georgia, at least w/ handguns sold in stores. Joe wrote: > At 04:26 AM 3/24/99 -0000, you wrote: > >>> First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. > >> The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. > > > >No, it's not, at least under Federal and California laws. Other states don't > >have jurisdiction, although some of them seem to think they do. > > It's not the law in Florida either. But E-bays action is nothing new. > Lots of news-papers and TV stations are refusing to carry gun ads, even if > it's a private sale. Funny, since the papers and TV stations are always > screaming about "freedom of the press" when it comes to publishing things > like the names of rape victum or other things that have no reason to be > published. > > Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 24 17:03:49 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <36F96CA2.A15F68ED@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > Why not just build a kit w/out the case, or sell the case seperate? I'd gladly > buy a kit like that and install it in a metal file cabinet. That'll cut the > costs, if metalwork is that expensive. The separate sales of the case could be the big money maker! I would think that a lot of the clueless yuppies that overbid for them on e-bay would be even happier with an "IMSAI" case containing a current Pentium motherboard. (How many here are familiar with Excalibur cars?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft From bluoval at mindspring.com Wed Mar 24 17:10:04 1999 From: bluoval at mindspring.com (bluoval) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI References: Message-ID: <36F970CC.E9C009F7@mindspring.com> The yuppies can keep the case, I'd keep the internals. Heck, I'd install it in a wooden box! "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: > > Why not just build a kit w/out the case, or sell the case seperate? I'd gladly > > buy a kit like that and install it in a metal file cabinet. That'll cut the > > costs, if metalwork is that expensive. > > The separate sales of the case could be the big money maker! I would > think that a lot of the clueless yuppies that overbid for them on e-bay > would be even happier with an "IMSAI" case containing a current Pentium > motherboard. (How many here are familiar with Excalibur cars?) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 24 17:16:38 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324182012.3b9725ac@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 09:28 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Tim wrote: > > > >A year or so ago I looked at what it would cost to make my "TIMSAI" IMSAI > >clone into a commercial product. Street price, I calculated, would be about > >$2000, and most of that was in the metalworking. There was only about $30 > >in semiconductors in the whole unit (and that included 256K SRAM and an > >IDE/floppy controller). > > That's exactly why people don't build kits any more. The price so the > individual parts is higher than the cost of the commercaily assembled > finished product. You need to find a surplus case that you can use. That > would save a lot of money. Ditto the power supply and as many other parts > as possible. I dunno. I had a friend who put out a commercial product (high-voltage electrical test equipment) that needed a 2' by 1.5' by 8" or so aluminum case, with drilled/cut machining on the front, rear, and bottom panels. He had a professional machinist/welder build one for him as a prototype for close to a thousand dollars, and then had a hundred of them made in Mexico for $95 a piece... Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 24 16:52:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <19990324200446.25052.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 24, 99 08:04:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990324/3ca35620/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 24 17:31:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <004a01be764e$6c02c4c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> That's exactly what Todd Fischer was writing about building. I certainly hope he doesn't do it. Those cases or, for that matter, any cases, in low volume, meaning fewer than, say 5000 per week, would be the bulk of the cost of nearly any computer. When you can use the most sophisticated machinery to make a simple product, however, the cost comes back down around $3 per pound. That's why, although I can't buy a decent fan for my power supply for under $40, though I can buy a power supply for $35, I can buy the case, with power supply and a fan, though still not a "decent" fan, for $27. It's the economy of scale. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote: >> Why not just build a kit w/out the case, or sell the case seperate? I'd gladly >> buy a kit like that and install it in a metal file cabinet. That'll cut the >> costs, if metalwork is that expensive. > >The separate sales of the case could be the big money maker! I would >think that a lot of the clueless yuppies that overbid for them on e-bay >would be even happier with an "IMSAI" case containing a current Pentium >motherboard. (How many here are familiar with Excalibur cars?) > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 24 17:49:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903242349.AA14015@world.std.com> <> I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get <> SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to <> create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what yo <> can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among <> local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get Therein lies the essence of getting going. Inspired comment. Right now Megan and I seem to be the most voluminous collectors on the eastern MA area and we are close to each other. To get something going needs critical mass greater than two. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 24 17:24:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324182012.3b9725ac@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 24, 99 06:20:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990324/2889401e/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 24 18:16:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) Message-ID: <000e01be7654$caa209e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Kits appeal to a much smaller segment of the market. Here in the US, selling kits offers a way to avoid having to meed stringent FCC specifications for electromegnetic interference, among other things. For that reason, if I were going to get into the business of selling a product, I'd let the initial kit sales pay for getting past the FCC testing/approval procedures. That way there would already be kit users out there to assist and teach ready-built product users so I would not have to do that. Kits are often more costly than ready-built products because kit builders fix their mistakes, while you can't expect the user of ready-made stuff to fix your mistakes. Tech support is a necessity, yet most kit builders don't need it. Tech support is what costs when you're selling a ready-built product for the home computer market. What scares me about the notion of resurrecting the really old IMSAI product line is that some of the designs, and this is more true of ALTAIR than of IMSAI, by the way, took the characteristics of the logic family they were using, mostly standard TTL, into consideration and would probably suffer from glitches and other timing race conditions e.g. metastability if current-generation and available pin-compatible HCMOS or LSTTL logic were substituted. This probably wouldn't be too common, but I've done this (long ago) when these logic families were new, and had mixed-to-poor results. Mostly this was the result of placing a fast decoder where a slow one had previously been specified, and mostly the result was not serious except where one-shots (YUCHK!) and clocked logic were driven by it. This was particularly true in DRAM circuit interfaces. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> That's exactly why people don't build kits any more. The price so the >> individual parts is higher than the cost of the commercaily assembled > >There are plenty of reasons for building kits other than the fact it >might be cheaper than a finished product (and I agree, that's unlikely >these days) : > >1) Most kits come with _much_ better documentation that the finished >unit. It's rare to get an electronic kit without a schematic, for example. > >2) Since you assembled it, you know how to take it to bits for repair. > >3) You also know it was assembled correctly. Many finished devices that >I've seen recently were full of dry joints, misfitted parts, etc. > >4) It's a lot easier to modify a kit. > >5) You probably learn something from making a kit. > >6) It's fun :-) > >In case you hadn't guessed, some of us _do_ still build kits, and do >plenty of other things that make no financial sense at all ;-) > >> finished product. You need to find a surplus case that you can use. That >> would save a lot of money. Ditto the power supply and as many other parts >> as possible. > >If I ever produce a computer kit (unlikely, as in the UK, kits have to >meet the same EU directives as the finished unit..), I'd probably offer >at least 4 versions : > >1) Docs only (you get to find all the components, etch PCBs, etc) > >2) Complete kit, including case, PSU parts, connectors, fixings, etc. > >3) PCB + components only. Everything that goes on the PCBs and nothing >else. Well, I might include the mating parts for the connectors, but no >off-board components, metalwork, etc. > >4) 'Rare parts kit'. PCBs + programmed ICs (EPROMs, PICs, etc) + any >other chips that are hard to get. > >-tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 24 18:24:42 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Discon (Was: Sellam's market In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Discon is a single board computer that is actually added into a slightly modified Televideo 920. It has multiple external drives. Mine came with 2 8", 2 5.25", and a few loose ones. It was marketed as a disk format conversion system. Anyone have a boot disk? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 24 20:41:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Apple question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990324204153.2f8fae7c@intellistar.net> I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. Which Apples will these work on? Do you need any specail software or hardware to use them? Joe From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 24 18:38:54 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <007101be7657$dd301220$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Mike To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 25 March 1999 5:13 Subject: Re: Museums >I would also imagine the museum brick and morter will have to be >electronically shielded to allow things like trs-80 mod 1s to operate in a >commercial zone. You're kidding, right? I can't believe even US silly rules are that silly. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 24 18:47:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Apple question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324204153.2f8fae7c@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:41:53) References: <3.0.1.16.19990324204153.2f8fae7c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990325004751.27085.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. > Which Apples will these work on? In principle, any computer with a SCSI port. The tape backup 40SC requires some software. I don't recall what (if anything) Apple shipped with it; I used Retrospect. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 24 18:43:47 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Apple question Message-ID: <61256411.36f986c3@aol.com> In a message dated 99-03-24 19:37:05 EST, you write: > I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. > Which Apples will these work on? Do you need any specail software or > hardware to use them? > SC means SCSI so will work on mac plus and later. you'll need sw for the TBU. for hard drive, just set the ID and termination if needed, and go. if the hard drive is set to boot id, (0, IIRC) and has a system folder, the mac will boot from it. david From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 24 18:51:46 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Apple question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324204153.2f8fae7c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 24, 99 08:41:53 pm Message-ID: <199903250051.QAA32123@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990324/ca963ff1/attachment.ksh From tomowad at earthlink.net Wed Mar 24 20:04:10 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Apple question Message-ID: <199903250202.SAA06827@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >> I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. >> Which Apples will these work on? Do you need any specail software or >> hardware to use them? > >SC means SCSI so will work on mac plus and later. you'll need sw for the TBU. >for hard drive, just set the ID and termination if needed, and go. if the >hard drive is set to boot id, (0, IIRC) and has a system folder, the mac will boot >from it. '0' is the id Apple traditionally uses for the internal hard drive, though it doesn't have to be. A Mac can boot from a SCSI HD with and id setting (eg. I've booted a Mac Plus off a Zip drive, which can only be set to id 5 or 6). If the hard drive doesn't have a System Folder, you should be able to just copy one off a boot floppy. This will usually work, though you'll have a very minimal system. Tom Owad From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Mar 24 20:03:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Apple question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324204153.2f8fae7c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. > Which Apples will these work on? Do you need any specail software or > hardware to use them? I'm pretty sure those are Mac SCSI beasts. I'll bet MacOS will recognize them inherently. Don't quote me. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 24 20:43:38 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <01be7631$36ec8d60$f2c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: >Ok... hating to be out done (but probably at a disadvantage since I don't >have a monthly swap meet to align with), if there is sufficient interest >(and people in the area) I'd consider doing the same thing at the >'Garage'... > >(the 'area' being Beaverton, Oregon BTW) > >Altho... in leu of a swap meet (we do have one twice a year tho...) we >could perhaps have a scrounge (archaeological dig?) at my warehouse... >B^} > >-jim Hmmm, sounds interesting, besides the our local swap meet is really to PC oriented to be that interesting, despite being called a CP/M User Group Swap Meet. There are several of us Classic Computer types in the area. Now where is this warehouse :^) Or for a truely frightening thought get Paxton to hold an "Open Warehouse". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 24 20:38:36 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324181903.47efe35a@ricochet.net> At 10:58 AM 3/21/99 -0800, you wrote: >You first need to think about how the ebay >auction format results in higher than reasonable prices (since you seem to >have ignored all the arguments I've made to this point) and then see if I seem to have missed the reasons why eBay intrinsicly results in inflated prices. As far as I can tell, the reasons mentioned so far for high prices on eBay are: 1) idiots who don't know they can or are too lazy to find computers cheap at out-of-the-way places only open on Fridays 2) idiots who have too much money 3) too many idiots who want the same stuff as us geniuses 4) bidders who maliciously bid excessively to artificially raise selling prices so that the hated seller has to pay higher fees to eBay 5) eBay wants items to sell for higher prices 6) unsrupulous sellers who shill bid to increase prices (raising the bids of the folks mentioned in #2) Anything I missed? >at least 3 years know that what something sells for on ebay is ridiculous >compared to what its really worth. Well, I've been involved with various collectibles for nearly 30 years, and I have to agree. I bought two Chein tin wind-up Donald Ducks last fall through eBay for ridiculous prices -- about 25% of what I could have turned around and sold them for at any antique show. And the Sharp PC-5000 I got for $15 was pretty ridiculous, considering the significance of the machine. >Think of it this way: if a toy stuffed with beans that cost a couple >dollars to manufacture were to be made for sale in a way which makes >people perceive a scarcity, and that toy was then subsequently priced up >to $1000 because of dealers and price speculators feeding on the perceived >scarcity of that toy, is it really worth $1000? Don't answer that yet. >Now fast forward a couple years in time and the market runs its course, >people are fed up with this toy and don't care about it anymore. The fad >is over, the bottom of the market drops out, and the last sorry asshole to >pay $1000 for a toy stuffed with beans is left holding an item worth maybe >$50 to the person who still hasn't caught on that it was all just an >irrational frenzy to begin with. Hmmm... Sounds like numismatics in the 80's, gold and silver at various times, collector plates, etc., etc., etc. And your point is? Speculators who buy based on fads are idiots. "Buy the book before you buy the coin." Smart folks do their homework before spending a lot of money. No matter what the "investment opportunity!" is, those that get in before it hits big and get out at the peak make a lot of money. Those that don't, don't. (Think back to around 1929...) Btw, I still don't have a Commodore SX-64, one of the few portable versions of an 8-bit home machine, in my collection. There have been a lot up for bid on eBay, but they all seem to sell for just over $100. (The same price as they were going for at VCF 2.0, btw.) That's more than I'm willing to pay for a Commodore 64, no matter how portable. On the other hand, I put out close to $300 for 2 Zorba's (with Shipping from the east coast) that I got through eBay. I don't think that that's a ridiculous price to pay for a rather uncommon machine. (Especially since I'm getting manuals and software, plus a couple of Kaypros, an IBM portable, and a couple of other goodies to go with it.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Mar 24 20:38:43 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Victory! (was: seller's market) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324183827.47d7385e@ricochet.net> At 11:47 PM 3/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >I can summarize this whole affair in four statements: You left out a few: >4. The {vultures|speculators} take over and pick the {carcass|hobby} > clean. 5. The fad dies out and the market collapses. 6. The {rubes|investors} begin to bail, selling their {collectibles|investment} for whatever they can get. 7. The poor guys from the beginning buy up the now plentiful supply at rock-bottom prices. In the end, the vultures and poor schmoes are happy, the suckers get fleeced, and all is well with the world. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 24 21:07:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:20 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <007101be7657$dd301220$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: >>I would also imagine the museum brick and morter will have to be >>electronically shielded to allow things like trs-80 mod 1s to operate in a >>commercial zone. > >You're kidding, right? I can't believe even US silly rules are that silly. No, I don't think he is. I don't remember the specifics, but the problem would actually be LESS in a commercial zone, than in a residential zone, IIRC. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 24 21:09:39 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Victory! (was: seller's market) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990324183827.47d7385e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >6. The {rubes|investors} begin to bail, selling their > {collectibles|investment} for whatever they can get. My concern is, since they don't care about the hobby that they'd throw the stuff out rather than selling it cheaply. After all if they can't get they high prices it isn't worth their trouble to dispose of it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 24 21:24:42 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Floppy drive Jumper question Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone happen to have, in some vast catacombs of old manuals/docs, the jumper info for a Panasonic JU-475-2GRJ 5 1/4" floppy drive? Or maybe you can shed some light on what the following sections/jumpers might do? DS/MX DO/DC LR/RD DD/IX/SP AT/AX BX/CX HM/HS/HL MS/MM/HA/OA/DA I'm trying to get this drive working with my ATR8000 (recently resurrected from the dead) and am not having much luck formatting disks with it. Any help would be much appreciated. Aaron From gram at cnct.com Wed Mar 24 21:44:36 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <007101be7657$dd301220$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > From: Mike > >I would also imagine the museum brick and morter will have to be > >electronically shielded to allow things like trs-80 mod 1s to operate in a > >commercial zone. > > You're kidding, right? I can't believe even US silly rules are that silly. The interference regulations apply to residential installations. There is no restriction in commercial installations unless the broadcast power gets way up there. (The FCC stepped in because of complaints from the close neighbors of folks running TRS-80 Model Ones (or Apple IIs or Commodore Pets or S-100 boxen) on the other side of an unshielded wall from a television with rabbit ear antenna in apartment buildings). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Mar 24 23:11:04 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Free stock shares References: <36F9B9B2.39E1C32D@worldinter.net> Message-ID: <36F9C567.560281B4@idirect.com> A US company is giving away free shares (like Yahoo did at its beginning). They're called Monsterboard and are pretty big. go to : http://www.monsterbook.com/SignUp2.asp and sign up, all they want is your demographics. If you don't mind, please give them my referral No. ( 277673 ). Hurry, they are only taking the first one million people. They will probably have that many within about 24 hours. If this is an imposition, don't bother with my referral No. If you wish, register all by yourself. They just want name and address and e-mail address. Since many of you already make that available, on this list, I doubt they would have any more information. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Mar 24 23:21:39 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: FREE apple hard drive Re: Apple question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324204153.2f8fae7c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990324212044.00b62ee0@mcmanis.com> I have an Apple 20SC hard drive that is in unknown condition that I'd be happy to give away for the postage. Email me off list. --Chuck At 08:41 PM 3/24/99 +0000, you wrote: >I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. >Which Apples will these work on? Do you need any specail software or >hardware to use them? > > Joe > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Mar 24 23:26:58 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Free stock shares In-Reply-To: <36F9C567.560281B4@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Mar 25, 1999 12:11:04 AM Message-ID: <199903250526.WAA02997@calico.litterbox.com> Um no. What it SAYS is: "As a special promotion, MonsterBook.com has announced that if and when it files for an Initial Public Offering of shares in the future, within 1 month after the Public Offering of shares it will give you $10 cash (US Currency) for every friend you referred to MonsterBook.com who subscribed before May 1, 1999. Should you earn a Referral Bonus under this promotion, you will be able to choose to receive your Bonus as a cash payment, or to apply it toward the purchase of stock in MonsterBook.com. See agreement below for details " Which means after the stock has gone through its IPO gyrations, THEN they give you your 10 dollars toward stock. AND, according to the fine print, "This offer is limited to the first 1 million people to subscribe to receive the free MonsterBook Internet Directory in the mail, and the maximum Referral Bonus to be paid to any one person will be $500. " It's not a BAD deal, assuming the company lasts long enough to issue stock (and considering they're offering to flush capital down the toilet like that I wouldn't hold my breath) but it sure as heck isn't free stock. > > A US company is giving away free shares (like Yahoo did > at its beginning). They're called Monsterboard and are pretty big. > go to : http://www.monsterbook.com/SignUp2.asp > and sign up, all they want is your demographics. If you don't mind, > please give them my referral No. ( 277673 ). Hurry, they are only > taking the first one million people. They will probably have that > many within about 24 hours. > > If this is an imposition, don't bother with my referral No. If you > wish, register all by yourself. They just want name and address > and e-mail address. Since many of you already make that available, > on this list, I doubt they would have any more information. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 25 02:37:33 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Floppy drive Jumper question In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Floppy drive Jumper question" (Mar 24, 19:24) References: Message-ID: <9903250837.ZM80@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 24, 19:24, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Does anyone happen to have, in some vast catacombs of old manuals/docs, > the jumper info for a Panasonic JU-475-2GRJ 5 1/4" floppy drive? Or maybe > you can shed some light on what the following sections/jumpers might do? > > DS/MX > DO/DC > LR/RD > DD/IX/SP > AT/AX > BX/CX > HM/HS/HL > MS/MM/HA/OA/DA I had a similar problem with my Panasonic drive. It's a slighlty different suffix, but here's what I got when I phoned their tech support: ============================================================================== Panasonic JU-475-2.AGG 5.25" DD/HD (Tech.Support 01344 853508, head office 01924 821010) MX DS multiplex/drive-select DS1..DS4 Drive Select AT AX dual density control: AX latches it on DSn BX CX dual speed control: BX = 2-speed, CX = 360, open = 300 IRD Internal READY signal DD IX SP indicate DISK CHANGED on DSn/Index/Step HM HS HL head load with motor-on/select/in-use MS MM motor start with select/motor-on HA OA DA UA activity LED with (select and in-use)/(select or in-use)/select/(latch function, in-use) 1M force 1MB size (ie, not HD) JX force high speed only HH head load with select GX enable true READY on read-data FX enable true READY on index DR ready enable on select DO ?? door open ?? DC disk changed LR RDY READY NO AR (no)Auto Recall (factory testing) PR factory test 44 64 cylinder precomp for factory test MN factory test MSE factory test ============================================================================== And for interest (OK, mostly mine!) here's some other drive info from my meagre file. If anyone cares to expand upon it for my colection, I'd be grateful for any recieved wisdom: ============================================================================== Teac FD-55-BVU 5.25" set DS1, U2, FG. Remove READY, link XT. ============================================================================== Teac FD55-FB for XT 5.25" DS1 HM SM IU cut READY; MSDOS uses this for DISK-CHANGED ============================================================================== Teac FD55-GFV-17 5.25" DD/HD DS1 FG HG II DC U2 for 360K use DS1 FG LG I DC U2 and remove R19 ============================================================================== Mitsubishi MF504C-310MP 5.25" DD/HD PC-AT/386 link settings; names are conjecture IP no pins SG SB closed 300/360 rpm SS 300 rpm only NO DS0 DS1 closed DS2 MX DS3 DD HR IL IS MM closed motor start with MotorOn MS motor start with Select IR internal Ready? IU In Use? RI closed RD closed Ready? DC closed Disk Changed? then why RD and DC both made? SR Speed Ready? ============================================================================== M4854-35 5.25" DD/HD use DS0-3 as usual; MX = always selected HS HM HC HL : HEAD LOAD with select/motor-on/normal/in-use MM MS : MOTOR START with motor-on/select DC 2S : link both for DISK CHANGED SS SB : SS = 360 rpm; SB = 300/360 rpm I think FG is FRAME GROUND DC DISK CHANGED (instead of READY?) 2S double sided ? ============================================================================== NEC FD1055 5.25" HD/DD -- settings for BBC Micro DCG: 2 USE: 2 HDE: 2 LUS: 1 Note LUS, MON, HS, LED : unclear which pins the labels refer to HS: 1 LED: 1,5 ============================================================================== NEC FD1138H 3.5" HD/DD No jumpers visible ============================================================================== Unmarked 5.25" 40-trk Asia Commercial FD108 solder joint for READY has 2 LEDs 6-way shunt, ??/DS0/DS1/DS2/DS3/MUX set 101000 for AT ============================================================================== Fujitsu M2551A.28 5.25" 40-trk RDY link ============================================================================== Fuji FDD5883AOK (Toshiba) 5.25" HD/DD TM (made) PS (made) LD D4/3/2/1 MUX (link on interface pin2 to GND forces DD, disables HD) DE/DX (made DX) speed fixed-at-fast/depends-on-pin-2 (low=slow) SR DC (made) ============================================================================== TEC ND-352-TH-A 3.5" DD-only has 0-ohm link for RDY/DC DS0/1/2/3 selection OK on BBC Micro ============================================================================== Brother FB-620V 3.5" DD-only (OK side 0; won't write side 1 but reads OK) ============================================================================== TEC ND-356-TA 3.5" DD/HD OK on BBC with DS0 and pin2/?? don't care links DS0/DS1/TZ/?? TZ connects to pin2 (open seems to be OK for DD on BBC) 0-ohm link for RDY/DC ============================================================================== YE Data YD-702-6037 3.5" DD/HD DS0/1/2/3 slide switch P1 closed:LED with inuse or select; open: LED with select and motoron P2 closed disable LED? JP1 connects pin 2 ============================================================================== TEAC FD235-HF 3.5" DD/HD HHO OP LHI pin2 low = HD, high = DD ?? HHI pin2 low = DD, high = HD ?? normal setting seems to be OP and HHI closed; works on 286/386/486dx/BBC or OP closed; works on Carole's 386 and my Intel 486sx tends to give verify hiccups on tracks 9/19/29 etc on BBC OP+LHI works on 286 BBC: pin2 to GND else set LHI ============================================================================== -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Mar 25 04:19:51 1999 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Next monitors Message-ID: >> Anyone need any of these? I found two pallets of them at a scrap place. >> Looks like 16", 19" and 21" MegaPixel models. erm... where are you? I might know a few people in the UK who'd want these, but don't think they'd want to pay overseas shipping :) cheers Jules > From kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk Thu Mar 25 05:20:45 1999 From: kh240463 at cr10m.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Rotting away In-Reply-To: <199903250526.WAA02997@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: http://www.nwfl.net/haynesdl/requests/games-a-rottin.JPG if ever you're wondering if saving computers from the scrap heap is the right thing, check out this link. It's rather a sorry sight. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig "Shine on your star" From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 08:36:37 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: sellers market - firearms In-Reply-To: <36F96CFC.CAAE18B0@mindspring.com> References: <36F86251.36F60B0B@mindspring.com> <01BE7573.6DA87D00@slip-32-100-187-16.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325083637.2fd7d0c6@intellistar.net> At 05:53 PM 3/24/99 -0500, "bluoval" wrote: >It is in Georgia, at least w/ handguns sold in stores. ALL guns sold in stores require some form of wait or back-ground check. That's part of the Federal law (Brady Bill). But it doesn't apply to private sales. Individual states may have restrictions on private sales but I'm not aware of any other than California, New York and some of the other New England states. What part of Georgia are you in? Joe > >Joe wrote: > >> At 04:26 AM 3/24/99 -0000, you wrote: >> >>> First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. >> >> The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. >> > >> >No, it's not, at least under Federal and California laws. Other states don't >> >have jurisdiction, although some of them seem to think they do. >> >> It's not the law in Florida either. But E-bays action is nothing new. >> Lots of news-papers and TV stations are refusing to carry gun ads, even if >> it's a private sale. Funny, since the papers and TV stations are always >> screaming about "freedom of the press" when it comes to publishing things >> like the names of rape victum or other things that have no reason to be >> published. >> >> Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 09:17:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Next monitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325091752.45ef1bb2@intellistar.net> Jules, I'm in Orlando, Florida. Joe At 10:19 AM 3/25/99 -0000, you wrote: >>> Anyone need any of these? I found two pallets of them at a scrap place. >>> Looks like 16", 19" and 21" MegaPixel models. > >erm... where are you? I might know a few people in the UK who'd want >these, but don't think they'd want to pay overseas shipping :) > >cheers > >Jules >> > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 09:20:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <01be7631$36ec8d60$f2c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325092059.45ef9304@intellistar.net> At 06:43 PM 3/24/99 -0800, Zane wrote: > >Or for a truely frightening thought get Paxton to hold an "Open Warehouse". Paxton's warehouse is always open it you know the right door to try. BTW I heard from him a few days ago and he says April 17th is the final sale. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 09:22:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Victory! (was: seller's market) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990324183827.47d7385e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325092257.45ef6c84@intellistar.net> At 06:38 PM 3/24/99 -0800, you wrote: >At 11:47 PM 3/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >>I can summarize this whole affair in four statements: > >You left out a few: > >>4. The {vultures|speculators} take over and pick the {carcass|hobby} >> clean. > >5. The fad dies out and the market collapses. > >6. The {rubes|investors} begin to bail, selling their > {collectibles|investment} for whatever they can get. > >7. The poor guys from the beginning buy up the now plentiful supply at > rock-bottom prices. > > >In the end, the vultures and poor schmoes are happy, the suckers get >fleeced, and all is well with the world. > Isn't Capitalism wonderfull! From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 07:24:43 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903251324.AA12609@world.std.com> >One rumour was that they took the _last_ complete PDP6 and sold it off >like that :-(. What on earth were they playing at? That's what I had heard... and it had been a working pdp-6 donated by Stanford (I believe)... what a waste... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 07:33:35 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> <> I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get <> SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to <> create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what yo <> can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among <> local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get >Therein lies the essence of getting going. Inspired comment. >Right now Megan and I seem to be the most voluminous collectors on the >eastern MA area and we are close to each other. To get something going >needs critical mass greater than two. Hmmm... does anyone remember 'progressive dinner parties'? You'd get a group of friends interested in dinner, and you'd go from one house where you'd have one part of the meal, to another where you would have the next part, and so on... What about something like that for viewing collections... It would have to be a limited number of people at any one time, obviously... I'd definitely have to clean up... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 07:52:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: pdp-11/83 looking for a good home Message-ID: <199903251352.AA04092@world.std.com> As usual, I'm simply forwarding thing along... contact the person in the post... - - - - - We have a PDP-11/83 system (BA123 worldbox, 2 DHQ11, RD54, TK50, LA120, LA324) that is looking for a home. It's running MicroRSTS and is working. We are located in northeast Ohio. Call or email me. Thanks, -- Joe Matuscak Rohrer Corporation 717 Seville Road Wadsworth, Ohio 44281 (330)335-1541 matuscak@rohrer.com From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Mar 25 08:11:10 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Mark-8 microcomputer - interview with Jon Titus Message-ID: <005f01be76c9$56263080$78f438cb@davie> Hi Guys and Gals. No, I'm not "back" but thought you might like an interesting read. I've been working on interviewing Jon Titus, the creator of the first "home" computer, the Mark-8 Minicomputer - which was featured in the July 1974 issue of Radio Electronics. Jon was kind enough to spend a considerable amount of his time typing up memories of the machine and how it all came about. I've placed this on my site, along with a few images. One image, of the RE front cover - was sent to me or I grabbed it from some website - but alas I can't remember where or by whom. So, if it's yours please contact me and I'll talk to you about copyright/image theft, etc. Without further ado, point your browser to http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/mark8b.html I'd really like some feedback on this one - it's taken a fair bit of work! Cheers A adavie@mad.scientist.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 25 08:24:41 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Mark-8 microcomputer - interview with Jon Titus Message-ID: <01BE76A1.505BD380.steverob@hotoffice.com> > http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/mark8b.html > I'd really like some feedback on this one - it's taken a fair bit of work! > Cheers > A > adavie@mad.scientist.com > Very nice! Steve Robertson - From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Mar 25 08:54:50 1999 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > Hmmm... does anyone remember 'progressive dinner parties'? You'd get > a group of friends interested in dinner, and you'd go from one house > where you'd have one part of the meal, to another where you would have > the next part, and so on... > What about something like that for viewing collections... It would > have to be a limited number of people at any one time, obviously... And think of all the frequent flier points you'd collect :-) Anyone wanna come to Canada to see my stuff? (And not Toronto or Vancouver... about half-way between.) ttyl srw From amichael at nortelnetworks.com Thu Mar 25 08:58:31 1999 From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: AES 7100 Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8F4255B@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> > Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Sounds like Doug has a head-startt in collecting Canadian-made computers > what with the Hyperion and the AES. Now to get an ICON and a MCM 70. I > have a couple of clone types. A Tryllium 286 and another, a MAX , a 386 > with > dreadfull physical attributes, looks like an oversized XT, but nice > internal > architecture, OEMed by a Quebec company whose name escapes me at the > moment. > Would that Quebec company be Ogivar? Arlen > -- > Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Mar 25 04:33:48 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <6dd5ced4.36f969fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <199903251532.KAA27326@smtp.interlog.com> On 24 Mar 99 at 17:40, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 24.3.1999 16:47:20 Eastern Standard Time, > CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com writes: > > > That's an extremely confusing statement, as MCA is quite common in > > many small-to-medium RS/6000's from just a few years ago. How can > > MCA compete against RS/6000's when it's part of many RS/6000's? > > > > I'm also confused by your statement that "MCA was discontinued", as IBM > > continues to sell RS/6000's (both the R50 and the SP system 9076 are listed > > in their February 1999 sales brochure) with MCA busses and MCA > > cards and MCA peripherals. > > well, the person I asked didnt expound on his answer. Remember that big blue > has different brands and I can only assume that the R6K division didnt like > the PC company giving it competition. > correction: for CONSUMER machines, MCA was discontinued unfortunately. > > That likely should have been in reference to PS2. IBM discontinued support last year. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From amirault at epix.net Thu Mar 25 09:47:40 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Rotting away References: Message-ID: <36FA5A9C.62D8A6E1@epix.net> Hi, You say about 1.5 miles away from home, how about a clue as to where HOME is. Some times all you need to do is rebuild the cabinet and the game works fine. Wood is still replaceable as far as I know. John Amirault "KNIGHT G.A" wrote: > > http://www.nwfl.net/haynesdl/requests/games-a-rottin.JPG > if ever you're wondering if saving computers from the scrap > heap is the right thing, check out this link. It's rather a > sorry sight. > -- > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig > "Shine on your star" From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 25 09:48:33 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990325092059.45ef9304@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 06:43 PM 3/24/99 -0800, Zane wrote: > > > > >Or for a truely frightening thought get Paxton to hold an "Open Warehouse". > > Paxton's warehouse is always open it you know the right door to try. > BTW I heard from him a few days ago and he says April 17th is the final sale. Don't hold your breath tho... (part of a VERY long story that I won't recap here) As of a day or two ago, the auction company that is supposed to be doing this sale still indicated that they had not been contracted yet... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From amirault at epix.net Thu Mar 25 09:55:44 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Rotting away References: <36FA5A9C.62D8A6E1@epix.net> Message-ID: <36FA5C80.7142197E@epix.net> Hi, I forgot the :) @ the end. sorry. John John Amirault wrote: > > Hi, > You say about 1.5 miles away from home, how about a clue as to where > HOME is. > Some times all you need to do is rebuild the cabinet and the game works > fine. Wood is still replaceable as far as I know. > John Amirault > > "KNIGHT G.A" wrote: > > > > http://www.nwfl.net/haynesdl/requests/games-a-rottin.JPG > > if ever you're wondering if saving computers from the scrap > > heap is the right thing, check out this link. It's rather a > > sorry sight. > > -- > > Gareth Knight > > Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig > > "Shine on your star" From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Mar 25 04:56:36 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8F4255B@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: <199903251555.KAA13395@smtp.interlog.com> On 25 Mar 99 at 9:58, Arlen Michaels wrote: > > Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > > Sounds like Doug has a head-startt in collecting Canadian-made computers > > what with the Hyperion and the AES. Now to get an ICON and a MCM 70. I > > have a couple of clone types. A Tryllium 286 and another, a MAX , a 386 > > with > > dreadfull physical attributes, looks like an oversized XT, but nice > > internal > > architecture, OEMed by a Quebec company whose name escapes me at the > > moment. > > > Would that Quebec company be Ogivar? > > Arlen > > > -- > > Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com > > > That's the one. From the little I was able to find , they seemed quite innovative. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 25 10:09:56 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Rotting away In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, KNIGHT G.A wrote: > http://www.nwfl.net/haynesdl/requests/games-a-rottin.JPG > if ever you're wondering if saving computers from the scrap > heap is the right thing, check out this link. It's rather a > sorry sight. Well... as one who worked in the coin-op business before I found someone to pay me to play with computers, that image is just about enough to ruin my whole morning! B^{ We do have a purpose in life! -jim (reassembling a 'Capcom Bowling' video game at home as a diversion...) --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 25 10:13:12 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Mark-8 microcomputer - interview with Jon Titus Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > Hi Guys and Gals. > No, I'm not "back" but thought you might like an interesting read. > I've been working on interviewing Jon Titus, the creator of the first "home" > computer, the Mark-8 Minicomputer - which was featured in the July 1974 > issue of Radio Electronics. Very nice! Hope this might inspire more people to efforts like this. It is a part of the history that really needs to be documented! > ... One image, of > the RE front cover - was sent to me or I grabbed it from some website - but > alas I can't remember where or by whom. So, if it's yours please contact me > and I'll talk to you about copyright/image theft, etc. Well... judging from the file name, and the (not always subtle) Photoshop cleanup work... B^} It came from my site. You are welcome to it regardless. (at least as much as I can say that, not being a legal representitive of Gernsback Publications) ;^} Only thing I might suggest, would be the addition of a copyright attribution. (which I do in the 'alt' fields of the image link) > Without further ado, point your browser to > http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/mark8b.html > I'd really like some feedback on this one - it's taken a fair bit of work! I tried to reply but the mail bounced... In any case... THanks for your efforts! A valuable insight! Regards; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 12:19:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Open Houses (was Re: Museums) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990325092059.45ef9304@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325121906.30479a5c@intellistar.net> Jim, So there really will be an auction this time? (maybe). I'm still trying to get him to give me some prices on some of his stuff. This makes, let's see, about 20 months! Joe At 07:48 AM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: >> At 06:43 PM 3/24/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >> >> > >> >Or for a truely frightening thought get Paxton to hold an "Open Warehouse". >> >> Paxton's warehouse is always open it you know the right door to try. >> BTW I heard from him a few days ago and he says April 17th is the final sale. > >Don't hold your breath tho... (part of a VERY long story that I won't >recap here) As of a day or two ago, the auction company that is supposed >to be doing this sale still indicated that they had not been contracted >yet... > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 12:21:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Dayna File II Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325122157.30479420@intellistar.net> I found a couple of these surplus. They're external 5 1/4" floppy drives and appear to have a SCSI connector. Does anyone know what system they're for? Are they SCSI? What voltage and polarity is the external power supply? Any details appreciated. Joe From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 25 10:39:28 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums References: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36FA66C0.B25AE967@rain.org> Megan wrote: > Hmmm... does anyone remember 'progressive dinner parties'? You'd get > a group of friends interested in dinner, and you'd go from one house > where you'd have one part of the meal, to another where you would have > the next part, and so on... > > What about something like that for viewing collections... It would > have to be a limited number of people at any one time, obviously... > > I'd definitely have to clean up... :-) You are not a REAL collector unless you would have to clean up :)! From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Thu Mar 25 10:52:46 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Free stock shares Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6CF@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> The other gotcha on this one is that it's not Monsterboard, the well-known online job search company, but Monsterbook -- anybody ever heard of it before? Sort of an online version of getting a swell Alphine car stereo or Panaphonic VCR at your local discounters -- close, but no banana... -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland [SMTP:jim@calico.litterbox.com] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:27 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Free stock shares Um no. What it SAYS is: "As a special promotion, MonsterBook.com has announced that if and when it files for an Initial Public Offering of shares in the future, within 1 month after the Public Offering of shares it will give you $10 cash (US Currency) for every friend you referred to MonsterBook.com who subscribed before May 1, 1999. Should you earn a Referral Bonus under this promotion, you will be able to choose to receive your Bonus as a cash payment, or to apply it toward the purchase of stock in MonsterBook.com. See agreement below for details " Which means after the stock has gone through its IPO gyrations, THEN they give you your 10 dollars toward stock. AND, according to the fine print, "This offer is limited to the first 1 million people to subscribe to receive the free MonsterBook Internet Directory in the mail, and the maximum Referral Bonus to be paid to any one person will be $500. " It's not a BAD deal, assuming the company lasts long enough to issue stock (and considering they're offering to flush capital down the toilet like that I wouldn't hold my breath) but it sure as heck isn't free stock. > > A US company is giving away free shares (like Yahoo did > at its beginning). They're called Monsterboard and are pretty big. > go to : http://www.monsterbook.com/SignUp2.asp > and sign up, all they want is your demographics. If you don't mind, > please give them my referral No. ( 277673 ). Hurry, they are only > taking the first one million people. They will probably have that > many within about 24 hours. > > If this is an imposition, don't bother with my referral No. If you > wish, register all by yourself. They just want name and address > and e-mail address. Since many of you already make that available, > on this list, I doubt they would have any more information. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 25 10:59:10 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Floppy drive Jumper question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Does anyone happen to have, in some vast catacombs of old manuals/docs, > the jumper info for a Panasonic JU-475-2GRJ 5 1/4" floppy drive? Or maybe > you can shed some light on what the following sections/jumpers might do? > . . . > I'm trying to get this drive working with my ATR8000 (recently resurrected > from the dead) and am not having much luck formatting disks with it. Any > help would be much appreciated. The Panasonic (AKA Matsushita (AKA Shugart)) #475 is a "1.2M" drive. The ATR8000 formats that I have seen were "720K" (in this case actualy about 800K), also once known as "QUAD density", NOT "high density". It'll be a LOT easier if you can find a 5.25" 720K drive. In the case of the Shugart/Matsushita/Panasonic, that would be the #465. (and #455 is the 360K model) If you don't have a choice, then you will need to either jumper or modify the drive for 300 RPM operation (default on 1.2M is 360RPM), and jumper or modify the write current for low density operation (aka 360K mode), while still permitting the 96TPI track density. Typically 1.2M drives change the track density along with the recording density. SOME revisions of the #475 could be set right, some required some minor board modifications. For TEAC drives, look for the 55F (1.2M), rather than the G model (1.2M). -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From amirault at epix.net Thu Mar 25 11:10:47 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Free stock shares References: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6CF@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Message-ID: <36FA6E17.8A826E4A@epix.net> Anthony, I, for one, replied to Jerome offgroup and gave him my $.02, I will not state what I said to him, as it is private. He does clearly say MONSTERBOOK in his message, I don't know where you got MONSTERBOARD from. John Amirault Anthony Eros wrote: > > The other gotcha on this one is that it's not Monsterboard, the well-known > online job search company, but Monsterbook -- anybody ever heard of it > before? > > Sort of an online version of getting a swell Alphine car stereo or > Panaphonic VCR at your local discounters -- close, but no banana... > > -- Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Strickland [SMTP:jim@calico.litterbox.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 12:27 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Free stock shares > > Um no. > > What it SAYS is: > "As a special promotion, MonsterBook.com has announced that if and > when it files > for an Initial Public Offering of shares in the future, within 1 > month after > the Public Offering of shares it will give you $10 cash (US > Currency) for every > friend you referred to MonsterBook.com who subscribed before May 1, > 1999. > Should you earn a Referral Bonus under this promotion, you will be > able to > choose to receive your Bonus as a cash payment, or to apply it > toward the > purchase of stock in MonsterBook.com. See agreement below for > details " > > Which means after the stock has gone through its IPO gyrations, THEN > they > give you your 10 dollars toward stock. AND, according to the fine > print, > > "This offer is limited to the first 1 million people to subscribe to > receive > the free MonsterBook Internet Directory in the mail, and the maximum > Referral > Bonus to be paid to any one person will be $500. " > > It's not a BAD deal, assuming the company lasts long enough to issue > stock > (and considering they're offering to flush capital down the toilet > like that > I wouldn't hold my breath) but it sure as heck isn't free stock. > > > > A US company is giving away free shares (like Yahoo did > > at its beginning). They're called Monsterboard and are pretty > big. > > go to : http://www.monsterbook.com/SignUp2.asp > > and sign up, all they want is your demographics. If you don't > mind, > > please give them my referral No. ( 277673 ). Hurry, they are only > > taking the first one million people. They will probably have that > > many within about 24 hours. > > > > If this is an imposition, don't bother with my referral No. If > you > > wish, register all by yourself. They just want name and address > > and e-mail address. Since many of you already make that > available, > > on this list, I doubt they would have any more information. > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > Jerome Fine > > > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 25 11:20:21 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Floppy drive Jumper question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) screwed up and wrote: > . . . > For TEAC drives, look for the 55F (1.2M), rather than the G model (1.2M). ^^^^ That should have been: 55F (720K) From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Mar 25 11:20:57 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Dayna File II Message-ID: <199903251720.MAA12670@hiway1.exit109.com> 
I found a couple of these surplus. They're external 5 1/4" floppy drives
and appear to have a SCSI connector.  Does anyone know what system they're
for?  Are they SCSI? What voltage and polarity is the external power
supply?  Any details appreciated.
They are SCSI and with the appropriate software would allow one to read PC-format disks on a Mac. Not sure about the adapter, but I *think* one can still find the software at: ftp://ftp.dayna.com/Pub/Macintosh/DaynaFile/ A couple of notes: 1) They've been discontinued for quite a while, so I don't know how well it will work with newer OS releases. 2) Apparently, they equipped them with different types of drives as I've seen ones with 360K, 1.2MB, and even 1.44MB floppy drives. I have to confess that I wouldn't mind finding a cheap one to play with. Unfortunately, the ones I've seen always seem to be out of my range. <<>> From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Thu Mar 25 10:38:19 1999 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Dayna File II Message-ID: <2326A05772A@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 25 Mar 99 at 12:21, Joe wrote: > I found a couple of these surplus. They're external 5 1/4" floppy drives > and appear to have a SCSI connector. Does anyone know what system they're > for? Are they SCSI? What voltage and polarity is the external power > supply? Any details appreciated. These probably come under the ten year rule. The oldest ones could be about twelve years old but they were made for several years. They are for reading DOS format 5.25" floppies on a Mac. Dayna made several variants for reading 360K and 1200K disks. I think that you'l need a system extension as well as the hardware itself.The drives should work on virtually any SCSI capable Mac, but they are from the Mac II generation so don't be surprised if they're incompatible with recent system software. Dayna don't have a great record of supporting older hardware, alas. However these things do pop up rather a lot and the power supply pin outs have been posted on the comp.sys.mac.* news groups in the last year or so, so check out DejaNews. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Mar 25 11:55:58 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: sellers market Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990324185019.47bffa4a@ricochet.net> At 09:36 AM 3/22/99 -0800, you wrote: >> to too high. Some firm's engineer will probably guess right, but >> that firm won't win the auction. The winner will be the firm whose >> engineer was the most overoptimistic. The winning firm won't >> ultimately get as much oil as their engineers promised, meaning the >> firm paid too much. In short, the auction "winner" is Right. But, on eBay, nobody bids on "*Rare* Old computer! Could be an Altair, could be a C-64! Bid first, find out later!". >> This is a particularly clear example because the thing being >> auctioned will have a definite value in the future that is >> unknowable at present. But the winner's curse afflicts auction eBay is not selling futures. It's selling objects which (at least in terms of classic computers) are not being purchased (by us, anyway) with plans to resell at a profit. So for us, if we think an altair is worth $10, and we're outbid, we lose nothing. The guy who bids $10K and wins, may feel it is worth that much to easily and quickly obtain something they want. Again, no problem. The guy who bids $10K and wins, hoping to sell later for more money is either a) a shrewd investor and we're all just jealous, or b) an idiot who is going to lose his shirt. In the case of the latter, all it means is that we have to wait to get the altair for $10 until the fad dies down and we see naked guys wandering the street carrying altairs. (anyone see that beyond.com ad during the oscars? That's me. Only not so thin or good looking, unfortunately.) It's called Delay of gratification. Learn to be patient, all will come to you in its time. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From bill at chipware.com Thu Mar 25 12:16:46 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990324185019.47bffa4a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <000101be76eb$a4afcf50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Right. But, on eBay, nobody bids on "*Rare* Old computer! Could be an > Altair, could be a C-64! Bid first, find out later!". Well, I don't want to embarrass him/her, but somebody on this list bid and win a *Rare* computer (as is of course), only to find upon receipt that it was an empty shell. Hey, what's the problem. He said it didn't work. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 25 12:33:18 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Floppy drive Jumper question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Does anyone happen to have, in some vast catacombs of old manuals/docs, > > the jumper info for a Panasonic JU-475-2GRJ 5 1/4" floppy drive? Or maybe > > you can shed some light on what the following sections/jumpers might do? > > . . . > > I'm trying to get this drive working with my ATR8000 (recently resurrected > > from the dead) and am not having much luck formatting disks with it. Any > > help would be much appreciated. > > The Panasonic (AKA Matsushita (AKA Shugart)) #475 is a "1.2M" drive. > The ATR8000 formats that I have seen were "720K" (in this case actualy > about 800K), also once known as "QUAD density", NOT "high density". It'll > be a LOT easier if you can find a 5.25" 720K drive. In the case of the > Shugart/Matsushita/Panasonic, that would be the #465. (and #455 is the > 360K model) > > If you don't have a choice, then you will need to either jumper or modify > the drive for 300 RPM operation (default on 1.2M is 360RPM), and jumper > or modify the write current for low density operation (aka 360K mode), > while still permitting the 96TPI track density. Typically 1.2M drives > change the track density along with the recording density. > SOME revisions of the #475 could be set right, some required some > minor board modifications. Thanks Fred, and Pete for the jumper info... Yes, I've been informed that the maximum drive size on the ATR 8000 is 720K. The CP/M disks I have are for a 40-track, double-sided 5 1/4" floppy drive. Unfortunately, my floppy drive supply is a bit low, and all I have are a few Shugart DS/DD 360K drives and this Panasonic. Thanks to the jumper info Pete sent along, I got the floppy configured OK for 360K operation, and can format and read disks on it (although it is the same as the two Shugart drives I had attached...). This drive *is* a little different than Pete's; I have the holes/markings for some of the jumpers he mentioned, but no posts, so I may be SOL on doing it the easy way. And finding a 720K drive at auction for a couple of bucks is probably the easiest way of all... I've got a couple of 720K 3 1/2" drives on the way from Haggle, but I really wanted to get a couple of 720K 5 1/4" floppies on there as well. Question: Is one media supported more than the other when it comes to reading/writing Atari format disks with a PC? I know that MyUtil does something weird with the second side of a floppy (or is it on the Atari side - something about it writing backwards?), but it'd sure make things simpler if I could read/write at least 180K disks on the PC (without using Prosystem)... From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 13:36:56 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums References: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903251936.AA11555@world.std.com> >> I'd definitely have to clean up... :-) > >You are not a REAL collector unless you would have to clean up :)! I'm really glad to know that I do pass the test for being a collector... :-) (Though I know a few people, including my son, who need to clean up -- and they are not collectors) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 13:41:08 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Free stock shares References: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE6CF@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Message-ID: <199903251941.AA15344@world.std.com> John Amirault wrote: >I, for one, replied to Jerome offgroup and gave him my $.02, I will not >state what I said to him, as it is private. He does clearly say >MONSTERBOOK in his message, I don't know where you got MONSTERBOARD >from. If you look in the one of the very first lines of his mail, quoted in your own response... he clearly has 'monsterboard'... but for everything else it says monsterbook. >> A US company is giving away free shares (like Yahoo did >> at its beginning). They're called Monsterboard and are pretty big. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> go to : http://www.monsterbook.com/SignUp2.asp >> and sign up, all they want is your demographics. If you don't Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From channum at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 14:09:27 1999 From: channum at earthlink.net (Corey Hannum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990325150927.007a2cf0@mail.earthlink.net> Hi, Do you know where i could get a kim 1? or do you have one? if so are you willing to sell it? Corey From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Mar 25 14:20:50 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Fwd: Dec5000/20 needs a home Message-ID: Found on comp.unix.ultrix. Please reply directly to: Rick_Compton@siebestc.co Mike Subject: Dec5000/20 needs a home From: Rick Compton Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999 13:42 EST Message-id: <36FA837A.FF4A1791@siebestc.com> I hate to just throw the old gal away but I'm not willing to invest a lot of money in shipping it around the world either. The DEC and I reside in Richmond, VA. Does anybody want it bad enough to come after it? Any suggestions? From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Mar 25 17:20:33 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: FREE apple hard drive Re: Apple question Message-ID: <01be7716$14a69580$7b9ba6d1@the-general> Hi! Does it have the cable to connect it to the computer? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 9:16 PM Subject: FREE apple hard drive Re: Apple question >I have an Apple 20SC hard drive that is in unknown condition that I'd be >happy to give away for the postage. Email me off list. >--Chuck > >At 08:41 PM 3/24/99 +0000, you wrote: >>I picked up an Apple Harddisk 20SC and an Apple tape backup 40SC today. >>Which Apples will these work on? Do you need any specail software or >>hardware to use them? >> >> Joe >> > > > From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Thu Mar 25 14:31:00 1999 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: OT: microsoft schedule+ In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990325150927.007a2cf0@mail.earthlink.net> from "Corey Hannum" at Mar 25, 99 03:09:27 pm Message-ID: <199903252031.PAA01732@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - This is sort of off-topic. I am looking for a copy of "Microsoft schedule+ Programmer's Reference" - which is out of print. Also, I am looking for information on the schedule+ SDK. What I actually need is the file formats for the *.prt and *.fmt files. That includes the definitions for all the available objects and parameters. Thanks. john -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 25 14:51:18 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Mac Drives (was Re: FREE apple hard drive Re: Apple question In-Reply-To: <01be7716$14a69580$7b9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <4.1.19990325124646.03c8ae00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:20 PM 3/25/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber wrote: >Does it have the cable to connect it to the computer? Hmmm, someone seems to have walked off with it (which was ok since I marked the stuff in the box as "free" :-) What is left in the box are a bunch of external 3.5" floppies, three different styles: 2 x "Fat" style (marked M0130) 2 x "Thin" style with no eject button 4 x "Thin" style with an eject button I've also got a 3rd party 40MB SCSI drive for the mac with 25->50Pin cable And two drives that appear to be SyQuest drives (one of which has an internal rattle) If anyone wants these let me know, I've got zero interest in Mac stuff. If you want to trade a Q-bus board or two or an OMNIBUS board then we can cover our own postage costs but if you just want me to ship 'em then you'll need to cover postage. --Chuck From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 25 15:17:43 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> Message-ID: Something like a rent party from the 20's and 30's? Sounds like it has promise. On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > > <> I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get > <> SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to > <> create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what yo > <> can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among > <> local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get > > >Therein lies the essence of getting going. Inspired comment. > > >Right now Megan and I seem to be the most voluminous collectors on the > >eastern MA area and we are close to each other. To get something going > >needs critical mass greater than two. > > Hmmm... does anyone remember 'progressive dinner parties'? You'd get > a group of friends interested in dinner, and you'd go from one house > where you'd have one part of the meal, to another where you would have > the next part, and so on... > > What about something like that for viewing collections... It would > have to be a limited number of people at any one time, obviously... > > I'd definitely have to clean up... :-) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 25 12:33:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903251112.DAA13114@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "Geoff Roberts" at Jun 25, 98 07:48:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1461 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990325/b4d1ac16/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 25 12:46:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:21 2005 Subject: sellers market In-Reply-To: <000101be76eb$a4afcf50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Mar 25, 99 01:16:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990325/5e99a2cf/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 25 15:49:04 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: First of all, let me introduce myself to the list. My name is Carlos Murillo, computer enthusiast and HP collector, though my collection is still pretty small. Many of my choices when it comes to computing are influenced by my addiction to automation and data aquisition. I have been lurking for a few weeks now, and I have learned a lot about classic computing from the members of the list. Thanks to you all. Now, I would like to ask for advice: I have a VAXstation 4000/60 sitting in front of me. I have been told that this ran ok about 8 years ago; I really don't know if this fits the topic of the list (I guess it could be slightly newer than 10 years). The thing is, it won't boot. When it is turned on, it flashes several colors on the monitor, it tests its 16M of RAM and then it aborts and dumps me to some sort of monitor program. This is what the screen shows: KA46-A V1.1-31E-V4.0 08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB 16MB ?? 003 3 DZ 0112 <---loud beep heard here >>> _ I played with several of the monitor commands; in particular, here are two that seem to give some info about this machine: >>> show dev VMS/VMB ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM REV ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ --- ESA0 08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 209.81MB FX RZ24 4041 ..HostID.. A/6 INITR >>> show config KA46-A V1.1-31E-V4.0 08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB 16MB DEVNBR DEVNAM INFO ------ ------ --------------------------------------- 1 NVR OK 2 LCG OK HR - 8 PLN FB - V1.1 3 DZ ?? 003 0112 4 CACHE OK 5 MEM OK 16MB= SY=8MB, S0/1=8MB, S2/3=0MB, S4/5=0MB 6 FPU OK 7 IT OK 8 SYS OK 9 NI OK 10 SCSI OK 3-RZ24 6-INITR 11 AUD OK Only device number 3, "DZ" seems to be faulty, and is the same device appearing in the original error. What is this device? Thanks for any help, Carlos. From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Mar 25 15:51:08 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums References: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> <199903251936.AA11555@world.std.com> Message-ID: <001501be7709$97d98aa0$db6e0181@beckman.com> What's a clean up and where can I get one? > >> I'd definitely have to clean up... :-) > > > >You are not a REAL collector unless you would have to clean up :)! > > I'm really glad to know that I do pass the test for being a > collector... :-) > > (Though I know a few people, including my son, who need to clean > up -- and they are not collectors) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 25 15:53:56 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: <990325165356.20200ed5@trailing-edge.com> >Only device number 3, "DZ" seems to be faulty, and is the same >device appearing in the original error. What is this device? DZ represents the serial ports - including the mouse and the keyboard. If you don't have a mouse (like the VSXXX-AA) and a keyboard (like the LK201 or LK401) plugged in, you'll get this error. Tim. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 18:07:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325180735.309f2cc0@intellistar.net> At 04:49 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote: > >First of all, let me introduce myself to the list. My name >is Carlos Murillo, Ahh! Another lucker finally speaks up! Hi Carlos! >I have a VAXstation 4000/60 sitting in front of me. I have I didn't know you were into Vaxs. I just found a 4000/90 but I've already promised it to another list meember. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 25 18:09:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <001501be7709$97d98aa0$db6e0181@beckman.com> References: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> <199903251936.AA11555@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990325180907.309f1f1e@intellistar.net> At 03:51 PM 3/25/99 -0600, Fran?ois wrote: >What's a clean up and where can I get one? I know what one is but I definitely don't want one! Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 25 16:09:22 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990325140825.00c50100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hi Carlos, You can netboot NetBSD on that puppy (see www.netbsd.org/vax/) Does it have a keyboard? DZ errors are usually keyboard problems. --Chuck At 04:49 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote: > >First of all, let me introduce myself to the list. My name >is Carlos Murillo, computer enthusiast and HP collector, though >my collection is still pretty small. Many of my choices when >it comes to computing are influenced by my addiction to automation >and data aquisition. > >I have been lurking for a few weeks now, and I have learned a lot >about classic computing from the members of the list. Thanks >to you all. Now, I would like to ask for advice: > >I have a VAXstation 4000/60 sitting in front of me. I have >been told that this ran ok about 8 years ago; I really don't >know if this fits the topic of the list (I guess it could >be slightly newer than 10 years). The thing is, it >won't boot. When it is turned on, it flashes several colors >on the monitor, it tests its 16M of RAM and then it aborts >and dumps me to some sort of monitor program. This is what >the screen shows: > >KA46-A V1.1-31E-V4.0 >08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB >16MB > >?? 003 3 DZ 0112 <---loud beep heard here > > >>>> _ > > >I played with several of the monitor commands; in particular, >here are two that seem to give some info about this machine: > >>>> show dev > > VMS/VMB ADDR DEVTYPE NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM REV > ------- ---- ------- -------- ----- -- ------ --- > ESA0 08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB > DKA300 A/3/0 DISK 209.81MB FX RZ24 4041 > ..HostID.. A/6 INITR > > >>>> show config > >KA46-A V1.1-31E-V4.0 >08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB >16MB > >DEVNBR DEVNAM INFO >------ ------ --------------------------------------- > 1 NVR OK > 2 LCG OK > HR - 8 PLN FB - V1.1 > 3 DZ ?? 003 0112 > 4 CACHE OK > 5 MEM OK > 16MB= SY=8MB, S0/1=8MB, S2/3=0MB, S4/5=0MB > 6 FPU OK > 7 IT OK > 8 SYS OK > 9 NI OK > 10 SCSI OK > 3-RZ24 6-INITR > 11 AUD OK > > >Only device number 3, "DZ" seems to be faulty, and is the same >device appearing in the original error. What is this device? > >Thanks for any help, > >Carlos. > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 25 16:14:04 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <990325165356.20200ed5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info; I do have an LK401 keyboard, but did not plug a mouse yet. I have located a model VSXXX-GA mouse; I don't know if it came with this machine or with some of the other DECstation 5000/33 laying around; should this work? On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Only device number 3, "DZ" seems to be faulty, and is the same > >device appearing in the original error. What is this device? > > DZ represents the serial ports - including the mouse and the keyboard. > If you don't have a mouse (like the VSXXX-AA) and a keyboard (like > the LK201 or LK401) plugged in, you'll get this error. > > Tim. > From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 25 16:21:16 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: KIM-1 References: <3.0.6.32.19990325150927.007a2cf0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <36FAB6DC.AF8E2CAA@rain.org> Corey Hannum wrote: > > Hi, > Do you know where i could get a kim 1? or do you have one? if so are you > willing to sell it? I am assuming this is a general question since it is addressed to the list. At some point, I will be putting up a Kim-1, Serial No. 0001, and accessories, etc. up for sale on ebay. It belonged to a friend of mine and I will be selling it for his wife. Wish I could keep it! From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Mar 25 16:25:09 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: <008d01be770e$6fac6890$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Yes That is what I am using on mine. Dan > >Thanks for the info; I do have an LK401 keyboard, but >did not plug a mouse yet. I have located a model VSXXX-GA mouse; >I don't know if it came with this machine or with some >of the other DECstation 5000/33 laying around; should this >work? > > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 16:40:01 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: <199903252240.AA21561@world.std.com> >I have a VAXstation 4000/60 sitting in front of me. I have >been told that this ran ok about 8 years ago; I really don't >know if this fits the topic of the list (I guess it could >be slightly newer than 10 years). The thing is, it >won't boot. When it is turned on, it flashes several colors >on the monitor, it tests its 16M of RAM and then it aborts >and dumps me to some sort of monitor program. This is what >the screen shows: [screen contents edited out] >Only device number 3, "DZ" seems to be faulty, and is the same >device appearing in the original error. What is this device? The DZ is programatically similar to the DZ for UNIBUS and the DZQ/DZV for Qbus. It is a multiple asynchronous serial line multiplexor (I don't know how many lines on Vaxstations...) I'm not familiar with the 4000/60... but if it is anything like other Vaxstations... the DZ is usually connected to the keyboard and the mouse. If you don't have these, then it may report an error (missing the mouse may be enough). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 16:43:03 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903252243.AA24323@world.std.com> >So, it appears that if you have a demountable cartridge drive and you >change the air filter, you have to bring it up to the latest standards. >That's refurbishing. If you wait for it to headcrash and fit new heads >and filter, well, that's a repair and is OK. Go figure. It's all how you view it... an air filter can go 'bad'... requiring repair (replacement). Logically should be no different from heads which go bad and require repair (replacement). Otherwise there could be an argument made for replacing the heads being a refurbishment, and this requiring bringing it up to standards.. depends on the definition of refurbish... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 25 16:44:03 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums References: <199903251333.AA19127@world.std.com> <199903251936.AA11555@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903252244.AA25168@world.std.com> >What's a clean up and where can I get one? Don't ask me... I certainly don't have one... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From emu at ecubics.com Thu Mar 25 17:11:37 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: <19990325231042.AAA14050@1Cust156.tnt20.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Joe, ---------- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Question regarding a VAXstation > Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 11:07 AM > I didn't know you were into Vaxs. I just found a 4000/90 but I've > already promised it to another list meember. If you "find" another one, i would be happy to take it ;-)) (looking already for a while) cheers, emanuel From emu at ecubics.com Thu Mar 25 17:14:02 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: <19990325231307.AAA4206@1Cust156.tnt20.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Carlos, ---------- > From: cem14@cornell.edu > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation > Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 2:49 PM > > I have a VAXstation 4000/60 sitting in front of me. I have > been told that this ran ok about 8 years ago; I really don't > know if this fits the topic of the list (I guess it could > be slightly newer than 10 years). The thing is, it > won't boot. When it is turned on, it flashes several colors > on the monitor, it tests its 16M of RAM and then it aborts > and dumps me to some sort of monitor program. This is what > the screen shows: > > KA46-A V1.1-31E-V4.0 > 08-00-2B-2A-F8-AB > 16MB > > ?? 003 3 DZ 0112 <---loud beep heard here So plug in the keyboard, and type: B DKA300 and wait what happen ... cheers, emanuel From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Mar 24 21:14:49 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <007101be7657$dd301220$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from Geoff Roberts at "Mar 25, 1999 11: 8:54 am" Message-ID: <199903250314.WAA01181@pechter.ddns.org> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, 25 March 1999 5:13 > Subject: Re: Museums > > >I would also imagine the museum brick and morter will have to be > >electronically shielded to allow things like trs-80 mod 1s to operate in a > >commercial zone. > > > You're kidding, right? I can't believe even US silly rules are that silly. > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Computer Systems Manager > Saint Mark's College > Port Pirie, South Australia. > Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au > ICQ #: 1970476 > Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 > Mobile: 61-411-623-978 > Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 Nope... Why do you think DEC stopped making the 11/70. FCC Rules. They were so tight that DEC called back every 11/70 they could pry out of field offices (replacing them with carved up 11/74's in some places like my Princeton office) in order to meet Ma Bell's requirements for 11/70's. (They were allowed to ship used refurbed stuff for another six months or so after they had to stop making new ones -- unless they wanted to spend $$$ to have the model retrofitted for the new emissions specs and retested for RF leakage). (They probably could've used VAX cabinets and could've done this -- but they were interested in dropping the 11/70 by then because it probably not cost effective to build and the 11/73 was coming...) Anyone out on the list have the truth? The above was the Field Service guestimate after we pulled the 11/70's from Princeton in favor of an 11/74 piece and a couple of replacement Vaxes for DEC's regional data center... Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.ddns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Mar 25 17:23:50 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Partial OS/8 Software Support Manual online Message-ID: <01J9950D90Y09OEN4J@cc.usu.edu> Having been blessed with a bit of a lull at the office this week, I've typed in and HTMLized a chunk of the OS/8 Software Suport Manual. The parts I have so far are the introduction through Chapter 5. Web on over to http://cc.usu.edu/~ivie/ and click on "The OS/8 Software Support Manual". The copy I have is a copy of a copy and no one bothered to copy the back of the title page, so I don't know the date or version of this particular copy of the manual. I also don't know when I'll get to the appendices. The appendices, of course, give the really exciting details such as the directory format. The part I have done so far may be interesting to that fellow who complained a while ago about having a DECmate III and not knowing how to program anything on it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 25 17:34:30 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903252244.AA25168@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >What's a clean up and where can I get one? > > Don't ask me... I certainly don't have one... :-) I think that we may have the answer to what is the rarest item on the list! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 25 16:56:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Mar 25, 99 04:49:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990325/39cbbec2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 25 16:59:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <001501be7709$97d98aa0$db6e0181@beckman.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=" at Mar 25, 99 03:51:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 646 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990325/2afdb7e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 25 17:02:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: <199903252243.AA24323@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 25, 99 05:43:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990325/d52c12ab/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Mar 25 19:09:54 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: References: <001501be7709$97d98aa0$db6e0181@beckman.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990325200954.00990100@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Tony Duell had spoken clearly: >> >> What's a clean up and where can I get one? > >You don't want one, believe me. Oh, I don't know... I have a cleanup... while no supermodel, I think she's pretty, and she *is* the loving, caring mother of my children... ;-) Where to get one... well, I met mine at the local "spring home show" the chamber of commerce holds every year... I've also heard that the laundromat & the supermarket are other good places to get one... ;^> Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From gareth.knight2 at which.net Thu Mar 25 19:17:47 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Rotting away Message-ID: <06b501be7726$b93b81e0$76b6fea9@gaz> John Amirault >You say about 1.5 miles away from home, how about a clue as to where >HOME is. No, the person who uploaded the picture says it's 1.5 miles from home. I believe it is in the US somewhere. All we need is a good sniffer dog and we should find it in no time =) -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 25 19:56:30 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <199903252314.SAA10573@cornell.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to everybody for the information. Indeed, the missing mouse was the culprit. The next time it loaded VAX/VMS V 5.5; it started by asking for the date, and I made the mistake of actually providing the current date; as it loaded, I got about a hundred instances of "license has expired for XXXXXXX", with XXXXX being a bunch of installed software, including FORTRAN and Pascal compilers and a lot of things that looked like networking stuff. Oh, well, I guess that by booting the machine I have stripped it of a lot of software. Finally, a login screen popped up, but nobody around here remembers any user name or password. It is the first time that I have seen a machine boot VMS. Nice. Carlos. On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > So plug in the keyboard, > > and type: > > B DKA300 > > and wait what happen ... > > cheers, > emanuel From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 25 20:09:32 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990325180735.309f2cc0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: Hi Joe; I guess I am just beginning to diversify into VAX/VMS :-) . I had been curious about it always. Here at the office we have a pile of equipment that we don't want to throw away, but we are not using. Lately, the space is getting crowded, and I sense that people a couple of steps higher in the chain of command are going to do something about it. Therefore, I decided to test some of this stuff to see if it works, so I can claim it early before they decide to throw it away. On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 04:49 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote: > Ahh! Another lucker finally speaks up! Hi Carlos! > I didn't know you were into Vaxs. I just found a 4000/90 but I've > already promised it to another list meember. > > Joe From emu at ecubics.com Thu Mar 25 20:11:30 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation Message-ID: <19990326021035.AAA7321@2Cust62.tnt21.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Carlos, ---------- > From: cem14@cornell.edu > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Question regarding a VAXstation > Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 6:56 PM > it of a lot of software. Finally, a login screen popped up, > but nobody around here remembers any user name or password. The answer to this is in the OpenVMS FAQ ;-)) > > It is the first time that I have seen a machine boot VMS. Nice. YES !!! cheers, emanuel From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 25 20:13:48 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Mar 25, 1999 08:56:30 PM Message-ID: <199903260213.TAA07405@calico.litterbox.com> Is it your personal hardware? Are you a Decus member (which is free) if so, get the hobbiest licenese. You'll probably be able to relicence almost everything on it. Having the licenses expire doesn't remove the software, just turns it off. > > > Thanks to everybody for the information. Indeed, the missing > mouse was the culprit. The next time it loaded VAX/VMS V 5.5; > it started by asking for the date, and I made the mistake > of actually providing the current date; as it loaded, > I got about a hundred instances of "license has expired for XXXXXXX", > with XXXXX being a bunch of installed software, including FORTRAN and > Pascal compilers and a lot of things that looked like networking stuff. > Oh, well, I guess that by booting the machine I have stripped > it of a lot of software. Finally, a login screen popped up, > but nobody around here remembers any user name or password. > > > It is the first time that I have seen a machine boot VMS. Nice. > > Carlos. > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > So plug in the keyboard, > > > > and type: > > > > B DKA300 > > > > and wait what happen ... > > > > cheers, > > emanuel > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 25 20:14:43 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Welcome to the list... > > Another HP enthusiast... What are you interested in? Calculators, > desktops, minis, or what... Calculators, desktops, test equipment; I guess that the common denominator is that I like equipment that can be used to setup data acquisition and control systems; therefore, I like the HP71B, the HP75C, when coupled via HPIL to other measuring devices; I also like HPIB equipment for the same reason. Lately, you guys have made me become hungry for VAX related equipment, but not too large, because I don't have a lot of space. Carlos. From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Mar 25 22:25:46 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Need RL11 card Message-ID: I would like to find at least one, maybe two, *working* RL11 Controller card(s) [M7762] with accompanying flat cable and adapter to RL01/2 cables. I have many Unibus cards to trade, other things to trade, and/or cash as well. GPIB cables, anyone?? ;} Also fun would be an engineering schematic for it (them). I have nine (count 'em: 9) RL02s, over sixty RL02 packs, and only one controller card. Thanks in Advance.... Cheerz John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Mar 25 23:10:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Old rotting video games Message-ID: The guy whose website the picture of old, rotting video game cabinets resides on is haynesdl@nwfl.net. He lives in Cape Canaveral, Florida. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From at258 at osfn.org Fri Mar 26 05:53:33 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > >What's a clean up and where can I get one? > > > > Don't ask me... I certainly don't have one... :-) I think they're available on eBay.....;) M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Mar 26 06:04:03 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: TANDY Keyboard Question Message-ID: <36FB77B3.B85011B@hotoffice.com> My ever-thoughtful brother-in-law found a couple of TRS-80s in the dumpster and thinking of me, hauled them home (what a guy). So now I have inherited a MODEL 2 and a MODEL 16... These things have obviously been sitting in a dirty shed/garage/chicken-coop so, I'll have to spend a few evenings just cleaning them up. Unfortunately, the keyboards were nowhere to be found. QUESTION: Will a regular PC type keyboard work with these systems? Steve Robertson From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 26 06:34:34 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: SoCal events In-Reply-To: <19990324195829.24987.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from John Lawson on Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:33:57 -0800 (PST)) Message-ID: >John Lawson wrote: >> So, okay.. I volunteer to hold a DEC-oriented 'open house' (my >> house...) once a month after the TRW swap meet here in Southern >> California. If anyone is interested, let me know. > >Well, geez! You rotten &*$%! :-) > >I thought I could exercise restraint and not drive down there >for the swap meet. But if you're going to pull a stunt like this... > >Sounds like fun! When is the swap meet? Until now I've been deliberately >avoiding learning the details. Just to add to the soup, TRW is near LAX on Saturday, ACP is in Santa Ana on Sunday (although it is more oriented on usefull computers not old iron, all sorts of "things" do pop up). From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 26 06:43:04 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990324125037.5f3782f8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: The point that seems to stick with me is that while some people complain vigorously about the high prices on eBay, the prices don't seem to be quite high enough to get them to part with similar items they have. ie the prices are more than they wish to pay, but not what they would be willing to sell for. From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Mar 26 06:53:52 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990324182012.3b9725ac@intellistar.net> References: <990324092855.20200a27@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >At 09:28 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Tim wrote: >> >>A year or so ago I looked at what it would cost to make my "TIMSAI" IMSAI >>clone into a commercial product. Street price, I calculated, would be about >>$2000, and most of that was in the metalworking. There was only about $30 >>in semiconductors in the whole unit (and that included 256K SRAM and an >>IDE/floppy controller). > > That's exactly why people don't build kits any more. The price so the >individual parts is higher than the cost of the commercaily assembled >finished product. You need to find a surplus case that you can use. That That, tech support, and product liability. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 26 08:08:18 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990325180735.309f2cc0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990326080818.4f2f8832@intellistar.net> Carlos, Good luck getting the VAX stuff. Perhaps you should volunteer to get it out of their way. Grab everything you can, someone will want it. BTW I got the tapes from Dan, lots of interesting looking stuff there. I'll make you copies of some 85 tapes and send them as soon as I can. Which disk drive did you say that you had, a 9121 or 9122? Joe At 09:09 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi Joe; > >I guess I am just beginning to diversify into VAX/VMS :-) . >I had been curious about it always. Here at the office >we have a pile of equipment that we don't want to throw >away, but we are not using. Lately, the space is getting >crowded, and I sense that people a couple of steps higher >in the chain of command are going to do something about it. >Therefore, I decided to test some of this stuff to see if >it works, so I can claim it early before they decide to >throw it away. > > >On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> At 04:49 PM 3/25/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Ahh! Another lucker finally speaks up! Hi Carlos! >> I didn't know you were into Vaxs. I just found a 4000/90 but I've >> already promised it to another list meember. >> >> Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 26 08:11:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Old rotting video games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990326081157.4f2f5278@intellistar.net> At 09:10 PM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: > >The guy whose website the picture of old, rotting video game cabinets >resides on is haynesdl@nwfl.net. > >He lives in Cape Canaveral, Florida. Hey, that's close to me! I'm not interested in video games but I'll offer to help anyone tht wants to try and save the stuff. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 26 08:15:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: 4000/90 was Re: Question regarding a VAXstation In-Reply-To: <19990325231042.AAA14050@1Cust156.tnt20.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990326081534.4f2f34da@intellistar.net> Emanuel, Talk to Zane, maybe you two can make an arrangement. I don't care where I send it just as long as the buyer pays shipping. I'm in Florida. Joe At 04:11 PM 3/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >---------- >> From: Joe >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Re: Question regarding a VAXstation >> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 11:07 AM > >> I didn't know you were into Vaxs. I just found a 4000/90 but I've >> already promised it to another list meember. > >If you "find" another one, i would be happy to take it ;-)) >(looking already for a while) > >cheers, >emanuel > From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Fri Mar 26 08:39:47 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 26, 99 04:43:04 am" Message-ID: <199903261439.JAA00993@hiway1.exit109.com> > The point that seems to stick with me is that while some people complain > vigorously about the high prices on eBay, the prices don't seem to be quite > high enough to get them to part with similar items they have. ie the prices > are more than they wish to pay, but not what they would be willing to sell > for. My vague feeling is that there is another, nebulous factor involved- something akin to being purely mercenary versus wanting to see an item go to the "right" home (with "rightness" being defined by the owner). I think that there is also a little of the dilemma that any speculator has- What is the best time to cash in. I know I'm guilty of the latter. For a while, I've been considering getting rid of a couple of my classics that I *never* get around to touching and, so, every once in a while, I find myself checking the prices on similar items, trying to decide if now is the time to go ahead and list them. For those who are wondering: the two I'm thinking of parting with are: 1) Osborne 1, blue case, with DD controller and 80-column upgrade. 2) Lisa 2/10, working, with original manuals (but disk copies). Also has a Sun Remarketing SCSI board and MacWorks Plus. <<>> From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Mar 26 10:55:59 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: TANDY Keyboard Question In-Reply-To: <36FB77B3.B85011B@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990326105559.009baac0@texas.net> NO! The keyboards are different! I have the schematics if you want to build your own (they are pretty simple). Arfon At 07:04 AM 3/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >My ever-thoughtful brother-in-law found a couple of TRS-80s in the >dumpster and thinking of me, hauled them home (what a guy). So now I >have inherited a MODEL 2 and a MODEL 16... These things have obviously >been sitting in a dirty shed/garage/chicken-coop so, I'll have to spend >a few evenings just cleaning them up. > >Unfortunately, the keyboards were nowhere to be found. QUESTION: Will a >regular PC type keyboard work with these systems? > >Steve Robertson > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From gregorym at cadvision.com Fri Mar 26 10:59:31 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: TANDY Keyboard Question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990326095929.00c5787c@cadvision.com> Steve, one of the thrift stores that I haunt has had a Model 2 keyboard kicking around for months (since the system itself was nowhere to be found). If it's useful to you, I could pick it up and mail it to you. Your cost: about $1 Canadian plus postage from Calgary, Alberta. Let me know if you're interested. Mark. At 07:04 AM 3/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >My ever-thoughtful brother-in-law found a couple of TRS-80s in the >dumpster and thinking of me, hauled them home (what a guy). So now I >have inherited a MODEL 2 and a MODEL 16... These things have obviously >been sitting in a dirty shed/garage/chicken-coop so, I'll have to spend >a few evenings just cleaning them up. > >Unfortunately, the keyboards were nowhere to be found. QUESTION: Will a >regular PC type keyboard work with these systems? > >Steve Robertson > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Mar 26 11:45:17 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: H960 rack PDP-8 ID bezels Message-ID: Ok... you know what I'm talking about here (or if not, well...) I'm trying to get (one of) my PDP-8 systems looking nice, (this months project) but the rack(s) are missing the ID bezels from the top of the rack. I've got enough of the PDP-11 bezels, but the two-tone purple color scheme just clashes too badly with the two-tone orange of the 8's. So... does anyone have a couple of PDP-8 bezels that they might part with, or perhaps a decent hi-res scan of one that I could use try to make a new decal to stick on a blank one? Thanks; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Fri Mar 26 11:51:32 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: H960 rack PDP-8 ID bezels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So... does anyone have a couple of PDP-8 bezels that they might part > with, or perhaps a decent hi-res scan of one that I could use try to make > a new decal to stick on a blank one? I think there is a VERY weathered one in the yard at Apex Electronics in the LA area. A little far away for you, perhaps... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Mar 26 11:52:26 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: H960 rack PDP-8 ID bezels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've got enough of the PDP-11 bezels, but the two-tone purple color scheme > just clashes too badly with the two-tone orange of the 8's. Clash? I though that was the point of the late 60s-early 70s DEC color schemes. William Donzelli william@ans.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 26 12:15:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: H960 rack PDP-8 ID bezels Message-ID: <990326131544.20200fde@trailing-edge.com> >> So... does anyone have a couple of PDP-8 bezels that they might part >> with, or perhaps a decent hi-res scan of one that I could use try to make >> a new decal to stick on a blank one? >I think there is a VERY weathered one in the yard at Apex Electronics in >the LA area. There's a very weathered one of everything at Apex! (Often buried under tons of other stuff, of course...) Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 26 12:51:38 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: TANDY Keyboard Question In-Reply-To: <36FB77B3.B85011B@hotoffice.com> (message from Steve Robertson on Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:04:03 -0500) References: <36FB77B3.B85011B@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <19990326185138.6258.qmail@brouhaha.com> > So now I have inherited a MODEL 2 and a MODEL 16... [...] > QUESTION: Will a regular PC type keyboard work with these systems? No. The Model 2 was designed several years before IBM even thought of doing the PC. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 26 12:59:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: H960 rack PDP-8 ID bezels In-Reply-To: <990326131544.20200fde@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990326105737.03d717c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:15 PM 3/26/99 -0500, Tim wrote: >There's a very weathered one of everything at Apex! (Often buried >under tons of other stuff, of course...) God aint that the truth, I almost got killed there when about a dozen wet boxes of monitors decided to succumb to gravity and fall roughly 10' into the the other stuff below. If it hadn't been for an IBM channel controller of some sort I would have caught the glass spray full on. As it was, all I ruined was my underwear. --Chuck From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Mar 26 13:02:53 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: TANDY Keyboard Question Message-ID: <01BE7791.586ACC70.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Friday, March 26, 1999 12:00 PM, Mark Gregory [SMTP:gregorym@cadvision.com] wrote: > Steve, one of the thrift stores that I haunt has had a Model 2 keyboard > kicking around for months (since the system itself was nowhere to be > found). If it's useful to you, I could pick it up and mail it to you. Your > cost: about $1 Canadian plus postage from Calgary, Alberta. Let me know if > you're interested. > > Mark. > Mark, I appreciate the offer. Before going to too much trouble, I need to make sure that they are otherwise functional. First, I gotta get them cleaned up and reassembled then try a power on test. If they look like they're work, I may take you up on your offer. I was hoping that a regular PC keyboard would work. That way I could do a complete test with minimal effort. When the teledisk order comes in, I'll have to beg a copy of the OS from someone (hint, hint). ;-) Thanks, Steve Robertson - From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 26 13:22:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <001701be77be$09eef760$0100c0a8@fuj03> You're right on the money with this assessment! I'm convinced of this because when I look at the items you've listed I think, "goodness! Why would anyone want that stuff?" while when I look at the pile of equally esoteric S-100 stuff I have in the corner, I think of it as "good stuff" which of course is a purely arbitrary judgment. I am not a collector and have held onto my "stuff" for two reasons, which I think may be pretty common in the world of computer "junk" ownership. (a) I bought the "stuff" when it was current hardware and I needed or wanted it for some specific purpose and still hope to squeeze the remaining value/utility out of it, and (b) it's a daunting task sifting throught the "archive" to determine what has to "go." This combines itself, quite naturally, I believe, into "Well, one of these days . . ." Auction prices would yield useful informaton IF . . . and only if. . . there were a completed sale to go along with a set of finishing prices published on the web. What's damaging to the usefulness of what we have now, e.g. eBay, is that they allow an auction to run to completion, record the final (winning) bid, and make no assertion whatever about whether the sale actually happened. As a consequence, putting your goods up for auction on eBay or Haggle is pretty chancy, as the only thing you're guaranteed of getting is a bill. That leaves the observer with a big question mark where an answer to the question of "What would someon give for this?" comes up. In the meantime, I, a potential seller, sit here saying to myself, "All I really want is for this stuff to GO AWAY!" When I advertise it as available, I get all kinds of offers to "take it off my hands," which means people will let me gather it up, package it, and ship it to them, on the off-chance that they'll use it for something, provided, of course, that I don't mind bankrolling the whole project, and what's always in the back of my mind is "I wonder what (how much ) this stuff would bring at auction?" If there were just a realistic way to find that out . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Seller's market >> The point that seems to stick with me is that while some people complain >> vigorously about the high prices on eBay, the prices don't seem to be quite >> high enough to get them to part with similar items they have. ie the prices >> are more than they wish to pay, but not what they would be willing to sell >> for. > >My vague feeling is that there is another, nebulous factor involved- something >akin to being purely mercenary versus wanting to see an item go to the >"right" home (with "rightness" being defined by the owner). I think that there >is also a little of the dilemma that any speculator has- What is the best >time to cash in. > >I know I'm guilty of the latter. For a while, I've been considering getting >rid of a couple of my classics that I *never* get around to touching and, >so, every once in a while, I find myself checking the prices on similar >items, trying to decide if now is the time to go ahead and list them. > >For those who are wondering: the two I'm thinking of parting with are: > >1) Osborne 1, blue case, with DD controller and 80-column upgrade. > >2) Lisa 2/10, working, with original manuals (but disk copies). Also has > a Sun Remarketing SCSI board and MacWorks Plus. ><<>> From bill at chipware.com Fri Mar 26 13:36:46 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) Message-ID: <000101be77bf$fbef85b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> I just got another box of OSI marketing lit. One of the items is a single sheet glossy with no date, but showing C1s C2s and C3s. Since there is no mention of anything else, I assume it's from 1977. Here's the kicker: It lists a Model 560Z CPU board with PDP-8 code compatibility! Has anyone on the list ever seen or heard of one of these? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 26 12:37:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: TANDY Keyboard Question In-Reply-To: <36FB77B3.B85011B@hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Mar 26, 99 07:04:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 771 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990326/5613aeba/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 26 14:14:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:22 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) Message-ID: <000601be77c5$4cb5d440$0100c0a8@fuj03> Back in the old days, somebody or other, I'll look it up later (General Instruments, I believe), made an LSI which was essentially compatible with the PDP8-E. The idea was that it was much less of a maintenance headache to have the CPU in microelectronic form as opposed to the ssi-msi implementation commonly seen. These didn't fare to well on the market because of the rapid evolution of the commercial microcomputer industry. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 12:43 PM Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) >I just got another box of OSI marketing lit. >One of the items is a single sheet glossy >with no date, but showing C1s C2s and C3s. >Since there is no mention of anything else, >I assume it's from 1977. Here's the kicker: >It lists a Model 560Z CPU board with PDP-8 >code compatibility! Has anyone on the list >ever seen or heard of one of these? > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Mar 26 14:20:39 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions References: <3.0.32.19990323233907.00c4d150@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <36FBEC15.35579E9D@bigfoot.com> Mark Gregory wrote: > Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 > portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience > with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember > when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and > the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. Any big corporate venture that's non-standard is ravaged by the media. Somehow they have made themselves out to be the experts just because they have a channel to the rest of the world. They are different but very nice once you get the jist of them, epecially the newer 95xx series machines. > I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the > power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the > whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with > the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than > with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. Well except for diconnecting the power cables to the drives in some instances as well as unplugging the unit or there won't be any swinging out going to happen. Not Plug-n-Pray so much as Plug-n-Go Find the ADF file. This is also an eay thing once you find and bookmark the proper sites of storage for the ADF/ADC files. > Some questions: > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > seems quite nice. It really didn't. It evolved to EISA combining the best of both MCA and ISA. > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > have to be ESDI drives? Nope. ESDI is similar to SCSI in that the controller is only a host adapter, not an actual controller like MFM and RLL. This allows you to have the drive's parameters queryed by the host adapter and set auto-magically rather than digging up a bunch of specs and crosing your fingers that they'll work. > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? Better to look around for an AMD 5x86 upgrade and make it a Pentium class machine. They can be gotten for around $50 in used form. OR you can get one of the processor complex cards from another model 8590 or 8595 (they're the same except for the case) and use it. I don't think you can use one from a 9590 or 9595 since they've changed and added a few things. As for the P70 there is an IBM FRU (field replaceable unit) that is made for the 70 and 80 that makes it a 486 but it won't physically fit. You can use one of the many 386-486 upgrades available. My wife's 8573, aka P70, is a 486 with Win95 and 16mb ram. I used a $25 "MakeIt 486" that plugged right in place of the 386 chip. > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? You can do a "low level format" (a hardware level format) by going to the opening menu of the reference disk and pressing CTRL-A and then going to hard drive preparation. Once this passes and completes, reboot with a DOS disk and put a partition on the drive and then reboot and format using FORMAT C::/S to transfer the system files. You may also need to replace the drive if it doesn't come around. I've had one or two over the period of all my PS/2 ventures come up bad for whatever reason. Usually the MFM 20 and 30 mb ones do that though.They have a "type" number on the ID label and a narrower bus connection than the full width that the 70 uses. The P70 uses the ESDI "MCA" drives that autopark and should talk to the host adapter on their own. If worse comes to worse email me directly, I have all sorts of machines and parts. Also the IBM "HMM" or hardare maintenance manual for all the machines you have are online at http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/cdt/hmm.html but please note that the P70 is not in the PS/2 manual but rather in one of the other manuals - see the manual descriptions. The L40/SX is also listed in that series for anyone that might need it. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Mar 26 14:46:18 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions References: <199903242054.PAA25712@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <36FBF219.B4201F11@bigfoot.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine. > Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the > MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model), > 8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest > at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line > and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several spares. > Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line. > MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the > availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily > disassembled. I'll have 2 P70's in immaculate shape and I have 3 various 8595 configurations to get rid of either in trade or sale. I also have 8565's, 8555/56/57's and 8590's and others. Get with me off the list and we can see what we can work out. Usually the trick is to make them fit. The P70 has one long and one short slot. > > IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices. There > are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup > can apprise you of. There's stuff all over the place dependant on the model. > > There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the newsgroup. > Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when fomatting > there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't > remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also > check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this problem. > lwalker@interlog.com The P70 isn't one of them. The SCSI models have the "system partition" of 1mb with the reference disk on it. Some utilities will let you delete it (Disk Manager for one) and others will show it but protect it (Fdisk is one). From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Mar 26 14:35:08 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions References: <3.0.5.32.19990324064357.00976db0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <36FBEF7A.8A8B5168@bigfoot.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > At 23:39 23-03-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > >I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the > >power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the > >whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with > > Yeppers. I've got a Model 85 and a 95 here. > > If your M95 came with a Type 4 CPU complex, I'm really going to get > jealous! ;-) You'd really hate me then, with a 9595-OPT (Pentium 60) having 2 each 2.88mb floppies, a 5.25" floppy and 4 2.5gb SCSI drives on the included F/W host adapter, two Adaptec SCSI adapters for the 8 external cdroms and 2 external hard drives, sound card, IBM Image Adapter/A and networked on a 3Com 32bit 10base2 card and having 3 printer ports and 2 serials, on top of an enternal 56k modem along with the original keyboard and mouse. I have it hooked to a 15" autosync NEC monitor . That' my "file server". I use one of two Dell 4066/XE servers 5x86 upgrades and RAID contolllers and EISA for internet and other "utilty" functions. That reminds me, I have 3 8595 servers of varying 486DX levels I really should sell, or trade for a couple large capacity SCSI hard drives. I think one is a 25mhz, another is a 33 and another at DX2-50. I also have a half dozen 8590's I still need to check into as well. > The only other maker that I know of that built MCA-slot machines was NCR > with some of their larger servers. There were a few others but the exact ones escape me (as well as my own name) right now. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Mar 26 15:07:59 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) In-Reply-To: <000601be77c5$4cb5d440$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: My memory is probably faulty but wasn't the 560Z CPU board the triple processor board (6800,6502, & 8080)? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Back in the old days, somebody or other, I'll look it up later (General > Instruments, I believe), made an LSI which was essentially compatible with > the PDP8-E. The idea was that it was much less of a maintenance headache to > have the CPU in microelectronic form as opposed to the ssi-msi > implementation commonly seen. > > These didn't fare to well on the market because of the rapid evolution of > the commercial microcomputer industry. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Sudbrink > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 12:43 PM > Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) > > > >I just got another box of OSI marketing lit. > >One of the items is a single sheet glossy > >with no date, but showing C1s C2s and C3s. > >Since there is no mention of anything else, > >I assume it's from 1977. Here's the kicker: > >It lists a Model 560Z CPU board with PDP-8 > >code compatibility! Has anyone on the list > >ever seen or heard of one of these? > > > >Thanks, > >Bill Sudbrink > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 26 15:13:17 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!)" (Mar 26, 13:14) References: <000601be77c5$4cb5d440$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <9903262113.ZM1560@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 26, 13:14, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) > Back in the old days, somebody or other, I'll look it up later (General > Instruments, I believe), made an LSI which was essentially compatible with > the PDP8-E. You're probably thinking of the Intersil 6100, which DEC actually used themselves in at least one product. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bill at chipware.com Fri Mar 26 15:16:46 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201be77cd$f4909670$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > My memory is probably faulty but wasn't the 560Z CPU board the triple > processor board (6800,6502, & 8080)? That's a 510. Shown right here on the same glossy. And depending on the rev. it could be a Z80 instead of the 8080. Bill Sudbrink From william at ans.net Fri Mar 26 16:07:42 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions In-Reply-To: <36FBEC15.35579E9D@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > > seems quite nice. > > It really didn't. It evolved to EISA combining the best of both MCA and ISA. RS/6000s have been using MCA for years. The new boxes have PCI slots, however. William Donzelli william@ans.net From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Mar 26 16:21:30 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: HP equipment Message-ID: <199903262221.QAA05399@augustus.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone recognize these items: HP 9145: appears to be a cake-box size unit, with a cartridge tape drive of some sort. HP 98571X: probably a computer or some sort. has a expansion slot in back, whatever was in teh slot has been removed. rs-232, HP-IB, HP-HIL, thinnet connectors on back. Seagate sticker applied on side of unit claims it is TEST EQUIPMENT, and is called HP 340 CPU serial number 334. PS: I may have a line on a pair of 3B2's (somethingorother/300), and the base unit for an Amiga 2000. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 26 17:15:37 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: MICE References: <199903262221.QAA05399@augustus.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <36FC1519.C6DD540E@rain.org> I just received a number of MICE boards (Microtek In Circuit Emulator) with the usual lack of documentation. A look at the Microtek web site gave me no information about how these things get hooked up. Anyone here familiar with them? Thanks! From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 26 17:41:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) Message-ID: <000a01be77e2$2bc50900$0100c0a8@fuj03> Yes, I believe you're right. It was a CMOS technology product at a time when such were less than common. There was a chaper devoted to it in the old Osborne book(s) about Microprocessors. I never saw one in a system, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, March 26, 1999 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) >On Mar 26, 13:14, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) >> Back in the old days, somebody or other, I'll look it up later (General >> Instruments, I believe), made an LSI which was essentially compatible >with >> the PDP8-E. > >You're probably thinking of the Intersil 6100, which DEC actually used >themselves in at least one product. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 26 20:30:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: HP equipment In-Reply-To: <199903262221.QAA05399@augustus.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990326203019.46a73568@intellistar.net> At 04:21 PM 3/26/99 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone recognize these items: > >HP 9145: appears to be a cake-box size unit, with a cartridge tape drive > of some sort. It's an external 32 track 1/4" tape drive with 132 Mb capacity and 4 Mb/min transfer rate. It has a HP-IB interface. > >HP 98571X: probably a computer or some sort. has a expansion slot in back, > whatever was in teh slot has been removed. rs-232, HP-IB, HP-HIL, > thinnet connectors on back. Seagate sticker applied on side of > unit claims it is TEST EQUIPMENT, and is called HP 340 CPU serial > number 334. > I have several of these, but I haven't figured out what monitor they use. These are basicly the same as HP 9000 300 series computers but have only one expansion slot. They're widely used as controller's in instrument systems that's why your's says TEST EQUIPMENT. Like all the 300s these will run BASIC, Pascal, HP-UX and (maybe) HPL. Joe >PS: I may have a line on a pair of 3B2's (somethingorother/300), and the > base unit for an Amiga 2000. > >-Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 26 20:12:39 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) Message-ID: <199903270212.AA19805@world.std.com> <> Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) <> Back in the old days, somebody or other, I'll look it up later (General <> Instruments, I believe), made an LSI which was essentially compatible the PDP8-E. GI never did the PDP-8 chip. Intersil and Harris (both 6100 and 6120) I don't believe OSI ever did a 6100 based design (por any other PDP-8 compatable chip). Allison J Parent wrote: > I don't believe OSI ever did a 6100 based design (por any other PDP-8 > compatable chip). Well, they tried to market the idea anyway. I have the document right here. From gregorym at cadvision.com Fri Mar 26 21:42:14 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990326204213.01097380@cadvision.com> While browsing at one of my local thrifts, I found a large number (20+) of disk sets for Microsoft Windows/286. Each set seemed to be 3-4 disks (Setup, Build, Options, PC Paintbrush ... can't remember what else). There were no manuals, but the 5.25 disks seemed to be in good shape. Is anybody interested in these? If so, I can pick them up tomorrow and make them available to anybody who has a use for them. Let me know. Mark "Would have bought them on principle but didn't have the cash on me" Gregory From donm at cts.com Fri Mar 26 22:35:55 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990326204213.01097380@cadvision.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark Gregory wrote: > While browsing at one of my local thrifts, I found a large number (20+) of > disk sets for Microsoft Windows/286. Each set seemed to be 3-4 disks > (Setup, Build, Options, PC Paintbrush ... can't remember what else). There > were no manuals, but the 5.25 disks seemed to be in good shape. Is anybody > interested in these? If so, I can pick them up tomorrow and make them > available to anybody who has a use for them. Let me know. Those sound a bit short. The set that I have is twelve disks: Setup Displays 1 Displays 2 Utilities 1 Utilities 2 Utilities 3 Utilities 4 Fonts 1 Fonts 2 Desktop Applications Windows Write Additional Drivers - don > Mark "Would have bought them on principle but didn't have the cash on me" > Gregory > From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Mar 27 02:55:08 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: <001701be77be$09eef760$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: >Auction prices would yield useful informaton IF . . . and only if. . . there >were a completed sale to go along with a set of finishing prices published >on the web. What's damaging to the usefulness of what we have now, e.g. >eBay, is that they allow an auction to run to completion, record the final >(winning) bid, and make no assertion whatever about whether the sale >actually happened. As a consequence, putting your goods up for auction on The completion rate figure I have seen for eBay is 70%. Out of that 30% that don't go through, a lot are from people who choose to list with high first bids, ala the guy who keeps about 100 auctions going all the time, each one for a single item like a hard drive sled, or a front bezel with a first bid amount of $9.95. Only about 20% of those items get any bids, and many sell with just a single bid. There are other equally harmless reasons items don't complete, but if you see half a dozen auctions for similar items, and each auction had a half a dozen different bidders, they final prices are about as good an indicator of fair market price as I expect you can find. If I am serious about an item, or the price seems odd on some of the auctions, I follow up and read the ads, or email the people. Many times prices differences are fully explained by condition or shipping costs revealed within the ad. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Mar 27 00:53:48 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990326204213.01097380@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199903271153.GAA11944@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Mar 99 at 20:42, Mark Gregory wrote: > While browsing at one of my local thrifts, I found a large number (20+) of > disk sets for Microsoft Windows/286. Each set seemed to be 3-4 disks > (Setup, Build, Options, PC Paintbrush ... can't remember what else). There > were no manuals, but the 5.25 disks seemed to be in good shape. Is anybody > interested in these? If so, I can pick them up tomorrow and make them > available to anybody who has a use for them. Let me know. > > Mark "Would have bought them on principle but didn't have the cash on me" > Gregory > Mark, could you pick up a set for me. I've been looking to acquire a set for some time. Regarding Don's comment, He must have a different distribution since I have a single disk labeled Windows 286 v 2.10 Setup, Build, and Displays 1 Disk and below diskette: 1 of 4 . It's a Microsoft A(merican) R(esearch) C(oporation (sic)) disk . I also have a 7 disk set of win 3.1. They're 1.2 megs. Possibly his is 360. Both come up "unformatted" dialogue box in File Manager. I didn't try them at start-up lest I screw up my win set-up and I didn't have my win-less dos box operating. Possibly also his set is built for install ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From gram at cnct.com Sat Mar 27 06:28:07 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > The completion rate figure I have seen for eBay is 70%. Out of that 30% > that don't go through, a lot are from people who choose to list with high > first bids, ala the guy who keeps about 100 auctions going all the time, That's where Ebay has a disadvantage over real (in-person) auction houses. The ones I've been in often have a staff to check the bonafides of such bidders, such as if they try to walk away without the merchandise they promised to buy, they do so on broken legs. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Sat Mar 27 06:33:29 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? In-Reply-To: <199903271153.GAA11944@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I also have a 7 disk set of win 3.1. They're 1.2 megs. Possibly his is 360. > Both come up "unformatted" dialogue box in File Manager. I didn't try them at > start-up lest I screw up my win set-up and I didn't have my win-less dos box > operating. Possibly also his set is built for install Hmm? The only way to screw up a Windows setup is to install it. Windows is best when it's left in the shrink-wrap while you use an operating system that works. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Mar 27 06:40:51 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: New content posted yesterday Message-ID: <002501be784f$28ac90e0$21752599@office1> Hello, all: I posted some more Altair schematics: the 8800 power supply, the 8800 Display/Control board, and the 8800 (display) Interface Card. I have also scanned the remaining AIM65 manual (the User's Guide) and will begin posting that shortly. Enjoy. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 27 09:28:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Seller's market Message-ID: <001001be7866$6ef06c40$0100c0a8@fuj03> The information I got from eBay's site suggests that only 70% of the auctions which are completed result in actual sales. What I get from this is that nearly one in three auctions which result in a fee to eBay don't result in a sale for the seller. I would say that the items with "ridiculous" initial prices are not included in this figure. That situation seems quite plausible to me, as there is no means availailable for "forcing" a sale. The fact that someone bids doesn't obligate them in any real way, nor does the fact that someone lists an item for sale obligate them to sell it if the price isn't sufficient. It seems quite plausible to me that an individual might overbid on an item in order to "queer" the auction, running the price up to where no one would pay that amount, irrespective of the value of the item being sold. This is no different than publishins software with a virus, or spraying graffitti on someone else's building. There's really no penalty. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 2:03 AM Subject: Re: Seller's market >>Auction prices would yield useful informaton IF . . . and only if. . . there >>were a completed sale to go along with a set of finishing prices published >>on the web. What's damaging to the usefulness of what we have now, e.g. >>eBay, is that they allow an auction to run to completion, record the final >>(winning) bid, and make no assertion whatever about whether the sale >>actually happened. As a consequence, putting your goods up for auction on > >The completion rate figure I have seen for eBay is 70%. Out of that 30% >that don't go through, a lot are from people who choose to list with high >first bids, ala the guy who keeps about 100 auctions going all the time, >each one for a single item like a hard drive sled, or a front bezel with a >first bid amount of $9.95. Only about 20% of those items get any bids, and >many sell with just a single bid. There are other equally harmless reasons >items don't complete, but if you see half a dozen auctions for similar >items, and each auction had a half a dozen different bidders, they final >prices are about as good an indicator of fair market price as I expect you >can find. > >If I am serious about an item, or the price seems odd on some of the >auctions, I follow up and read the ads, or email the people. Many times >prices differences are fully explained by condition or shipping costs >revealed within the ad. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 27 09:30:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? Message-ID: <001901be7866$c41ec220$0100c0a8@fuj03> That "old" version of Windows had the infamous problems with SMARTDRV. I'd suggest you proceed with caution. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 4:58 AM Subject: Re: Any interest in Windows/286? On 26 Mar 99 at 20:42, Mark Gregory wrote: > While browsing at one of my local thrifts, I found a large number (20+) of > disk sets for Microsoft Windows/286. Each set seemed to be 3-4 disks > (Setup, Build, Options, PC Paintbrush ... can't remember what else). There > were no manuals, but the 5.25 disks seemed to be in good shape. Is anybody > interested in these? If so, I can pick them up tomorrow and make them > available to anybody who has a use for them. Let me know. > > Mark "Would have bought them on principle but didn't have the cash on me" > Gregory > Mark, could you pick up a set for me. I've been looking to acquire a set for some time. Regarding Don's comment, He must have a different distribution since I have a single disk labeled Windows 286 v 2.10 Setup, Build, and Displays 1 Disk and below diskette: 1 of 4 . It's a Microsoft A(merican) R(esearch) C(oporation (sic)) disk . I also have a 7 disk set of win 3.1. They're 1.2 megs. Possibly his is 360. Both come up "unformatted" dialogue box in File Manager. I didn't try them at start-up lest I screw up my win set-up and I didn't have my win-less dos box operating. Possibly also his set is built for install ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 27 10:50:37 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Seller's market References: <001001be7866$6ef06c40$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <36FD0C5D.F9D273F1@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The information I got from eBay's site suggests that only 70% of the > auctions which are completed result in actual sales. What I get from this > is that nearly one in three auctions which result in a fee to eBay don't > result in a sale for the seller. I rather suspect that the 70% figure is a bit misleading if taken just by itself. The mechanics of a "good" title and description are really important, as is including a picture for most items. Doing a search to find similar items, what they sold for, how many bids, etc. are also important. I have had two items out of perhaps 100 that the buyer failed to follow through. I have also had perhaps 15 items that didn't sell that I put out just out of curiousity to see what would happen. The rate of things I have researched out before I put them up for auction is far better than the claimed 70%. From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Mar 27 11:05:01 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: FYI - Classic items at JDR Message-ID: <005001be7874$dc6e2ce0$02932599@office1> Hello, all: While looking at the new JDR Microdevices catalog, a few items jumped out: 1. S100 bus connectors #100P-WW $1.99 2. AppleBus connectors #50P-WW $2.99 3. CBM/KIM/AIM #44P-WW $0.99 4. Intel 8272 FDC $0.99 5. CTS256AL2 (text-to-speech) $4.99 6. 1793 FDC $7.99 7. TMS99532 (modem chip) $3.99 [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Mar 27 06:35:00 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? In-Reply-To: References: <199903271153.GAA11944@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199903271734.MAA18653@smtp.interlog.com> On 27 Mar 99 at 7:33, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > I also have a 7 disk set of win 3.1. They're 1.2 megs. Possibly his is 360. > > Both come up "unformatted" dialogue box in File Manager. I didn't try them at > > start-up lest I screw up my win set-up and I didn't have my win-less dos box > > operating. Possibly also his set is built for install > > Hmm? The only way to screw up a Windows setup is to install it. > Windows is best when it's left in the shrink-wrap while you use an > operating system that works. > -- > Ward Griffiths > ROTFL ! I was speaking relatively of course. The only way to approach microsloth. I must admit I'm feeling the pressure to submit to W9x tho. I've got some housekeeping to do before I move up to Linux and many apps require a 32 bit system. On the other hand I've just acquired a Mac 7100/66AV so I might use that on the net for a while. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 15:48:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327154854.2ed7bba0@intellistar.net> Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas (two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. Pictures and questions to follow. Joe PS the HPs are still available if anyone wants them. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 27 14:00:20 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <000a01be788c$71907640$0100c0a8@fuj03> I bet you're going to be disappointed in the TI chassis, Joe. TI made (back in the '70's) a line of their microcomputers which used a connector and a card form-factor like the S-100, sort-of, but which wasn't S-100. One easy way to tell the difference, I believe is that the TI system, which I never inspected, hence can't say for certain, used a global power supply rather than the s-100's on-card local regulation. Their power and other supply leads were in different places, too. Let me know if I'm wrong, Joe, as I hope you're getting something you can use, but something tells me . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 12:51 PM Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest > Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas >(two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* >S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. >Pictures and questions to follow. > > Joe > > PS the HPs are still available if anyone wants them. > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 27 15:15:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) Message-ID: <199903272115.AA12459@world.std.com> I don't believe OSI ever did a 6100 based design (por any other PDP-8 <> compatable chip). < Thought some might be interested. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Sparc10 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:46:26 -0500 From: "James H. McCann" Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Newsgroups: alt.forsale Complete Sun Sparc10 with lots of memory, big color display, tape drive. email your offer and questions. System currently running UNIX 4.1.2 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 27 04:09:57 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!)" (Mar 26, 16:41) References: <000a01be77e2$2bc50900$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <9903271009.ZM2005@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 26, 16:41, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific Model 560Z CPU (PDP-8!) > Yes, I believe you're right. It was a CMOS technology product at a time > when such were less than common. There was a chaper devoted to it in the > old Osborne book(s) about Microprocessors. > > I never saw one in a system, though. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull > >You're probably thinking of the Intersil 6100, which DEC actually used > >themselves in at least one product. I have one in a WPS78, which is a DECmate-type system, looks like a VT52 with a desktop RX01 unit, sold for office automation. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 17:48:02 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <000a01be788c$71907640$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327174802.43ff978a@intellistar.net> Dick, RATS! I think you're right! I just brought it in and checked. The slots are wider than S-100 and the card sockets are offset to one side so S-100 cards hit one edge and won't go in. It also has a switcher power supply so it is regulated off the cards. Too bad, it is really a nice box. I may modify it back to S-100. Anyway what can you expect for $3? Do you know anything the TI computer? Is this worth leaving as is in hopes someone can use it or should I use it for a project box? Joe At 01:00 PM 3/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >I bet you're going to be disappointed in the TI chassis, Joe. TI made (back >in the '70's) a line of their microcomputers which used a connector and a >card form-factor like the S-100, sort-of, but which wasn't S-100. One easy >way to tell the difference, I believe is that the TI system, which I never >inspected, hence can't say for certain, used a global power supply rather >than the s-100's on-card local regulation. Their power and other supply >leads were in different places, too. > >Let me know if I'm wrong, Joe, as I hope you're getting something you can >use, but something tells me . . . > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 12:51 PM >Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest > > >> Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas >>(two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* >>S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. >>Pictures and questions to follow. >> >> Joe >> >> PS the HPs are still available if anyone wants them. >> > > From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 27 15:45:05 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? In-Reply-To: <199903271153.GAA11944@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 26 Mar 99 at 20:42, Mark Gregory wrote: > > > While browsing at one of my local thrifts, I found a large number (20+) of > > disk sets for Microsoft Windows/286. Each set seemed to be 3-4 disks > > (Setup, Build, Options, PC Paintbrush ... can't remember what else). There > > were no manuals, but the 5.25 disks seemed to be in good shape. Is anybody > > interested in these? If so, I can pick them up tomorrow and make them > > available to anybody who has a use for them. Let me know. > > > > Mark "Would have bought them on principle but didn't have the cash on me" > > Gregory > > > > Mark, could you pick up a set for me. I've been looking to acquire a set > for some time. > > Regarding Don's comment, He must have a different distribution since I > have a single disk labeled Windows 286 v 2.10 Setup, Build, and Displays 1 > Disk and below diskette: 1 of 4 . It's a Microsoft A(merican) R(esearch) > C(oporation (sic)) disk . > I also have a 7 disk set of win 3.1. They're 1.2 megs. Possibly his is 360. Yes, the disks are 360s and it is v2.10. - don > Both come up "unformatted" dialogue box in File Manager. I didn't try them at > start-up lest I screw up my win set-up and I didn't have my win-less dos box > operating. Possibly also his set is built for install > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com > From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 27 15:47:24 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > The completion rate figure I have seen for eBay is 70%. Out of that 30% > > that don't go through, a lot are from people who choose to list with high > > first bids, ala the guy who keeps about 100 auctions going all the time, > > That's where Ebay has a disadvantage over real (in-person) auction > houses. The ones I've been in often have a staff to check the > bonafides of such bidders, such as if they try to walk away without > the merchandise they promised to buy, they do so on broken legs. And around here, at least, you cannot bid unless the auction outfit holds a deposit of about $100 from you. - don > -- > Ward Griffiths > "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor > > From KFergason at aol.com Sat Mar 27 15:53:46 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Sparc10] Message-ID: <365824ef.36fd536a@aol.com> In a message dated 3/27/99 3:20:11 PM Central Standard Time, bluoval@mindspring.com writes: > Complete Sun Sparc10 with lots of memory, big color display, tape drive. > email your offer and questions. System currently running UNIX 4.1.2 > Making an assumption he means SunOS 4.1.2, ask lots of questions. Sparc 10's do not run SunOS 4.1.2. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 18:12:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> I picked up a Lisa today but it's missing the "V" key from the keyboard. Is the keytop the same as that used on any of the other Apples or any other computer? I also got a ProFile external disk drive but no connecting cable. Is this just a straight through cable? If not can someone post the pinouts? Finally, I'm getting a memory error when it boots. It shows a picture with MEM 2 folder crossed out and either "70" or "71" shown below it. Does anyone know exactly what this means or how I can fix it? Joe From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 27 16:21:01 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: A little OT? Sun PS questions... In-Reply-To: <365824ef.36fd536a@aol.com> Message-ID: Speaking of sparcs, This might be a little OT, but it does *involve* a Sun 3/50. At least the dead shell of one. John Lawson was kind enough to donate the mainboard from a Sparcserver 600MP to the cause today, but I don't have anywhere to put it (no comments on that, please). The question is this: can I put this board into the 3/50's case? From what I understand, the old VME chassis only provided power. Of course, the capacity of the 3/50's ps is a question too; I think it's rated somewhere around 20A at 5v, and the 600MP board requires something like 15A @ 5v, with no RAM or Mbus modules. Sorry if the classiccmp connection is a little tenuous... Aaron From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sat Mar 27 16:32:17 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: My profile/lisa combonation operates with a straight 25 pin ribbon cable. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > I picked up a Lisa today but it's missing the "V" key from the keyboard. > Is the keytop the same as that used on any of the other Apples or any other > computer? > > I also got a ProFile external disk drive but no connecting cable. Is > this just a straight through cable? If not can someone post the pinouts? > > Finally, I'm getting a memory error when it boots. It shows a picture > with MEM 2 folder crossed out and either "70" or "71" shown below it. Does > anyone know exactly what this means or how I can fix it? > > Joe > > > From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Sat Mar 27 16:42:08 1999 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question Message-ID: <16247309@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Re: memory error. According to the table of memory errors, 70 means read/write error and 71 means parity error. Don't know if that helps at all...the whole error table is here: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~woz/lisatech/page16_17.html The same board failed in my Lisa 2 last summer. I guess try jiggling it, cleaning the contacts, looking for cracked solder points, etc. Sun Remarketing sells the whole board (unless they've run out), but it's not exactly cheap -- around fifty bucks. And you have to get hold of the right guy on the phone, some of the younger sales reps have no clue that the company sells Lisa parts. -- MB --- You wrote: I picked up a Lisa today but it's missing the "V" key from the keyboard. Is the keytop the same as that used on any of the other Apples or any other computer? I also got a ProFile external disk drive but no connecting cable. Is this just a straight through cable? If not can someone post the pinouts? Finally, I'm getting a memory error when it boots. It shows a picture with MEM 2 folder crossed out and either "70" or "71" shown below it. Does anyone know exactly what this means or how I can fix it? Joe --- end of quote --- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 27 17:14:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Finally, I'm getting a memory error when it boots. It shows a picture >with MEM 2 folder crossed out and either "70" or "71" shown below it. Does >anyone know exactly what this means or how I can fix it? Open up the back and see if you've got a leaky battery. I know this is a problem with the Lisa 2/5 and I got my system and pulled the battery just as it was starting to cause damage. You don't need a battery in the system to run. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 27 17:17:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <001d01be78a8$0a0fd080$0100c0a8@fuj03> I'm not the guy to ask about the TI line, as I only had contact with it once, in a TI sales office, but, . . . this IS a forum for people with interests in ancient computing hardware . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest >Dick, > > RATS! I think you're right! I just brought it in and checked. The slots >are wider than S-100 and the card sockets are offset to one side so S-100 >cards hit one edge and won't go in. It also has a switcher power supply so >it is regulated off the cards. Too bad, it is really a nice box. I may >modify it back to S-100. Anyway what can you expect for $3? > > Do you know anything the TI computer? Is this worth leaving as is in >hopes someone can use it or should I use it for a project box? > > Joe > >At 01:00 PM 3/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >>I bet you're going to be disappointed in the TI chassis, Joe. TI made (back >>in the '70's) a line of their microcomputers which used a connector and a >>card form-factor like the S-100, sort-of, but which wasn't S-100. One easy >>way to tell the difference, I believe is that the TI system, which I never >>inspected, hence can't say for certain, used a global power supply rather >>than the s-100's on-card local regulation. Their power and other supply >>leads were in different places, too. >> >>Let me know if I'm wrong, Joe, as I hope you're getting something you can >>use, but something tells me . . . >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joe >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 12:51 PM >>Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest >> >> >>> Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas >>>(two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* >>>S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. >>>Pictures and questions to follow. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> PS the HPs are still available if anyone wants them. >>> >> >> > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Mar 27 17:32:09 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Any interest in Windows/286? References: Message-ID: <36FD6A78.BC70613F@bigfoot.com> I think there are two (maybe more) versions. You sound like you have the 360k disks, the sets mentioned are probably 1.2mb Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark Gregory wrote: > > > While browsing at one of my local thrifts, I found a large number (20+) of > > disk sets for Microsoft Windows/286. Each set seemed to be 3-4 disks > > (Setup, Build, Options, PC Paintbrush ... can't remember what else). There > > were no manuals, but the 5.25 disks seemed to be in good shape. Is anybody > > interested in these? If so, I can pick them up tomorrow and make them > > available to anybody who has a use for them. Let me know. > > Those sound a bit short. The set that I have is twelve disks: > > Setup > Displays 1 > Displays 2 > Utilities 1 > Utilities 2 > Utilities 3 > Utilities 4 > Fonts 1 > Fonts 2 > Desktop Applications > Windows Write > Additional Drivers > > - don > > > Mark "Would have bought them on principle but didn't have the cash on me" > > Gregory > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 19:40:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327194022.2507803c@intellistar.net> At 02:32 PM 3/27/99 -0800, you wrote: >My profile/lisa combonation operates with a straight 25 pin ribbon cable. > >George Rachor Great! Thanks George. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 19:44:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: <16247309@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327194432.44a7d088@intellistar.net> At 05:42 PM 3/27/99 EST, Marion.Bates wrote: >Re: memory error. According to the table of memory errors, 70 means read/write error and 71 means parity error. Don't know if that helps at all...the whole error table is here: > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~woz/lisatech/page16_17.html OK thanks. > >The same board failed in my Lisa 2 last summer. I guess try jiggling it, cleaning the contacts, looking for cracked solder points, etc. Yeap, I did all that. Also scrubbed it with an eraser and cleaned with alcohol. Swapped slots and it's still shows that board bad. > >Sun Remarketing sells the whole board (unless they've run out), but it's not exactly cheap -- around fifty bucks. And you have to get hold of the right guy on the phone, some of the younger sales reps have no clue that the company sells Lisa parts. Are they the only ones that sell or repair these? I've heard of memory upgrades using SIMMS. Does anyone know how to do this? Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 19:48:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327194834.4c4f4438@intellistar.net> At 03:14 PM 3/27/99 -0800, Zane wrote: >> Finally, I'm getting a memory error when it boots. It shows a picture >>with MEM 2 folder crossed out and either "70" or "71" shown below it. Does >>anyone know exactly what this means or how I can fix it? > >Open up the back and see if you've got a leaky battery. Nope, no battery, this is a Lisa 2/10 (aka Mac XL). I know this is a >problem with the Lisa 2/5 and I got my system and pulled the battery just >as it was starting to cause damage. You don't need a battery in the system >to run. Thanks for the suggestion though. Joe From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Mar 27 12:36:49 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Seller's market In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >> The completion rate figure I have seen for eBay is 70%. Out of that 30% >> that don't go through, a lot are from people who choose to list with high >> first bids, ala the guy who keeps about 100 auctions going all the time, > >That's where Ebay has a disadvantage over real (in-person) auction >houses. The ones I've been in often have a staff to check the >bonafides of such bidders, such as if they try to walk away without >the merchandise they promised to buy, they do so on broken legs. This is just a seller with a high minimum bid, bidders who reneg are often pursued, or just sued, and almost alway get negative feedback. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Mar 27 20:50:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Another Lisa question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990327205022.44a7b8fe@intellistar.net> OK I've done some checking and found out that there is supposed to be a parallel port availble inside the Lisa 2/10 (aka Mac XL). Does anyone know where it is? What's it used for? There are two serial ports on the back of the 2/10. Are they the same and what are they used for or are they standard RS-232 ports? This one came with an anti-glare filter in front of the CRT but the other two didn't. Is this standard or was it an add-on? Thanks for all the replys, Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 27 20:41:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:12:52) References: <3.0.1.16.19990327181252.44a720f0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990328024122.12746.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe asks about the Apple Lisa 2 and Profile: > I also got a ProFile external disk drive but no connecting cable. Is > this just a straight through cable? If not can someone post the pinouts? It's straight through, but you may need to remove one pin at one end to fit a keyed DB25 connector. I don't remember which pin, but if you need to do it, it will be obvious. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 27 20:44:08 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Another Lisa question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990327205022.44a7b8fe@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:50:22) References: <3.0.1.16.19990327205022.44a7b8fe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990328024408.12756.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe asks: > OK I've done some checking and found out that there is supposed to be a > parallel port availble inside the Lisa 2/10 (aka Mac XL). Does anyone know > where it is? What's it used for? It's used for the Widget 10 MB internal hard drive. I guess in theory you could use it for something else, but I've never tried. I have at various times, however, run Widgets as external drives, and hooked up external Profiles to the internal drive cable. Just a small matter of cabling. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 27 20:45:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:23 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990327154854.2ed7bba0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas > (two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* > S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. You should have gotten the Lisa 2's. They are closer to the original Lisa than the 2/10. The Lisa 2 is really just a Lisa 1 with the 400K 3.5" drive and an adaptor board. You saw an S-100 chassis made by TI (Texas Instruments I presume?) and didn't pick it up? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat Mar 27 22:09:36 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. Message-ID: <199903280409.XAA06292@golden.net> There are very few computer collectors in Canada, especially those collecting minis. Almost all of March I've been trying to seed the small collector-base in southern Ontario by selling a bunch of DG NOVAs. NOT ONE TAKER nor interested party. Remarkable. Perhaps my prices were too high, but if someone wants something bad enough you would think he or she would at least contact me. Not one phone call or email. Weird. So it is because of this experience I recommend shipping any precious minicomputers to Kitchener. They are safe here. They won't be sold, tinkered with, or cannabalized. They won't even be LOOKED AT. This isn't a last resort pitch because I plan to hold onto the NOVAs. I originally needed the space for twin PDP 11/70s, but the corporate management of the present owners have put a hold on the transaction. Double yikes, eh. Thanks for listening and happy collecting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 27 22:31:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Lisa question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Finally, I'm getting a memory error when it boots. It shows a picture > >with MEM 2 folder crossed out and either "70" or "71" shown below it. Does > >anyone know exactly what this means or how I can fix it? > > Open up the back and see if you've got a leaky battery. I know this is a > problem with the Lisa 2/5 and I got my system and pulled the battery just > as it was starting to cause damage. You don't need a battery in the system > to run. The Lisa 2/10 System I/O boards don't have the backup battery on them. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Mar 27 22:50:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Another Lisa question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990327205022.44a7b8fe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > This one came with an anti-glare filter in front of the CRT but the other > two didn't. Is this standard or was it an add-on? It was a standard add-on. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 28 04:47:53 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? In-Reply-To: <000001be7403$0c4f4c80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: Hi! I only seem to only have time to catch up with me mail once a week or so. I just found your post to the ClassicCmp list about the PETs. Are they all gone yet? Where are you located? Toronto area? Shipping PET stuff would be very expensive, I think. If I had a friend in Toronto I'd send him over to grab whatever you've got. :) The SuperPET is especially nice. A friend of mine has one, with an 8050 or 8250 (don't remember which) and all the language software and manuals. I've been looking for a BASIC 4 system and DOS 2 or higher disk drive for a while. All of my PET stuff is more antiquated then the stuff you've got on the list. A 4032 and an 8250 would be ideal. I like the small 40-column screens. On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > This weekend I bought someones entire Commodore Collection. The reason I > bought the collection was they were unwilling to break it up, so I've got to > find homes for most of these machines. > (I only am keeping one) > > - 1 Commodore SuperPET > - 10 CPUs: Commodore 8032, 4032, 4016 > - 1 Spare part machine, 2 extra motherboards, ROMs etc. > - 8 Disk Drives: 4040, 8050 and quite a few 8250s (I didn't know these > existed) > - Commodore printers + one daisy wheel > - Commodore Test diskettes, repair schematics + procedures > (including some stuff that never made it to the market) > - Lots of manuals...even an original 1976 MOS Technology 6502 programming > manual in as new condition! > - Lots of software (even some SuperPet stuff) > - Compute magazine from 1980-1983 in as new condition > - Commodore PET Literature > > This stuff came out of school computer labs and some stuff when Commodore > Canada shut down. > All the machines seem to work OK...pretty good shape for being close to 20 > years old. > Need some TLC...they have various school names in marker on the side. > > So I need to find homes for these PCs....they are taking up a lot of room in > my basement. > I'm need to sell them...This list gets first crack at them...I'll consider > interesting > trades too... > > My overall want list: > NeXT, KIM-1, A working S-100 and/or CP/M System, Lisa, Tesla coil, > telescopes, night vision gear, GPS, Oscilloscope, Lotus Esprit SE, Robotics > items, or anything other interesting items. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 28 05:27:45 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > The motors start spinning soon after the machine is powered up, but the > > drive lights don't come on. Is the drive light activity for standard > > drives always the same, relative to motor and/or head activity? (Actually, > > No, in many cases it's jumper-selectable. For example, some machines turn > on the LED when the head loads, some when the motor starts, etc. It's > possible it's waiting for the drive to become ready. > > Have you tried 'any old disk' in there? Obviously it won't boot it, but > it might trick the drive into thinking it was ready. Yes, I've tried an MS-DOS disk. Perhaps I could try other formats, but it looks as though the AES 7100 needs hard sectored disks anyway. > > It'd be nice if it'd give some kind of startup message before the drives > > are running, though. > > There may not be enough space in the boot ROM for this (I have a number > of machines that do _nothing_ on the screen until they've booted). Have > you pulled the ROMs and dumped them to see if there are any messages in them? No. I don't have anything to dump them with. Which leads to a question I've been meaning to ask for a while: Are there any inexpensive EPROM burners/readers on the market today? Something that would work with antiquated PC hardware (the most modern PC-clone machine I've got is a '286) ? Also, how would one go about reading or writing to an EPROM that is soldered to the printed circuit board? Is it possible to clip onto a chip from the top and have it work that way? I have some machines with unsocketed EPROMs, as strange as it sounds. I would, of course, really like to store copies of all ROMs in a safe place, which would probably be 5.25" DD floppy. (My Zip drive died recently.) I'd really like to look inside the AES 7100's ROMs. What was the rule in case of flaky forgetful EPROMs, Tony? Do I AND the bits from multiple readings, or do I OR them? > -tony -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 28 05:34:32 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > There's an "AMI S2350P", and an "AMI S1062P", and an "AM9517A-4PC", an > > Got it! > > The 2350 is a USRT. And it just happens to be one that was used in some > hard sectored disk controllers - like the H17 card I have schematics of > here... > > It does sound like it's expecting hard sectored disks. The chip could be > used for a synchronous serial port (of course), but I think that's unlikely. OK. That's cool! I've never owned a machine that needed hard sectored disks before. How exotic! ;) Maybe next month I'll drag home something with an 8" drive. :) > I don't recognise the 1062, the 9517 is (IIRC) a DMA controller. Cool. > > "SY2128-1", a "FERRANTI ZN 1066E", three PIO chips, two CTC chips, a Z80, > > The 2128 is (IIRC) a smallish RAM (2K*8), possibly video memory The 2128 is quite close to the 4650, so you're probably right. > I don't recognise the ZN1066 number, but I can try to look it up. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the floppy drives. Actually, I think it was on the power supply board(!) so I'm not sure why I mentioned it. :) > > and a Hitachi HD46505SP. Oh, and three ROMs or EPROMs. > > 4650 is a CRT controller IIRC. Yes, in case it was dead I pulled another 4650 off a PC video card and tried it out, but there was no change. > -tony -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Mar 28 06:54:23 1999 From: thedm at sunflower.com (TheDM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? Message-ID: <000e01be791a$1aa53da0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I am very interested in haveing a complete PET System, and I don't mind paying shipping. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 4:57 AM Subject: Re: Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale? > >Hi! > >I only seem to only have time to catch up with me mail once a week or so. >I just found your post to the ClassicCmp list about the PETs. Are they >all gone yet? > >Where are you located? Toronto area? Shipping PET stuff would be very >expensive, I think. If I had a friend in Toronto I'd send him over to >grab whatever you've got. :) > >The SuperPET is especially nice. A friend of mine has one, with an 8050 >or 8250 (don't remember which) and all the language software and manuals. > >I've been looking for a BASIC 4 system and DOS 2 or higher disk drive for >a while. All of my PET stuff is more antiquated then the stuff you've got >on the list. > >A 4032 and an 8250 would be ideal. I like the small 40-column screens. > > >On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > >> This weekend I bought someones entire Commodore Collection. The reason I >> bought the collection was they were unwilling to break it up, so I've got to >> find homes for most of these machines. >> (I only am keeping one) >> >> - 1 Commodore SuperPET >> - 10 CPUs: Commodore 8032, 4032, 4016 >> - 1 Spare part machine, 2 extra motherboards, ROMs etc. >> - 8 Disk Drives: 4040, 8050 and quite a few 8250s (I didn't know these >> existed) >> - Commodore printers + one daisy wheel >> - Commodore Test diskettes, repair schematics + procedures >> (including some stuff that never made it to the market) >> - Lots of manuals...even an original 1976 MOS Technology 6502 programming >> manual in as new condition! >> - Lots of software (even some SuperPet stuff) >> - Compute magazine from 1980-1983 in as new condition >> - Commodore PET Literature >> >> This stuff came out of school computer labs and some stuff when Commodore >> Canada shut down. >> All the machines seem to work OK...pretty good shape for being close to 20 >> years old. >> Need some TLC...they have various school names in marker on the side. >> >> So I need to find homes for these PCs....they are taking up a lot of room in >> my basement. >> I'm need to sell them...This list gets first crack at them...I'll consider >> interesting >> trades too... >> >> My overall want list: >> NeXT, KIM-1, A working S-100 and/or CP/M System, Lisa, Tesla coil, >> telescopes, night vision gear, GPS, Oscilloscope, Lotus Esprit SE, Robotics >> items, or anything other interesting items. > >-- >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Mar 28 07:59:56 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Compaq Deskpro XT Message-ID: <003101be7923$430b8fc0$103cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have found an old Compaq Deskpro that turned out to be an XT. I had thought that the first desktops they made were 286's. Was this just an attempt to tap the cheaper end of the market? It is a very large box for an XT, the same size as the other early Deskpro's. Hans From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 28 07:12:50 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <01be791c$ae68c6e0$fbc962cf@devlaptop> Hey Joe, what ham fest was that? ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 2:46 PM Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest > Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas >(two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* >S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. >Pictures and questions to follow. > > Joe > > PS the HPs are still available if anyone wants them. > > From dogas at leading.net Sun Mar 28 07:19:21 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. Message-ID: <01be791d$97782b00$fbc962cf@devlaptop> >So it is because of this experience I recommend shipping any precious >minicomputers >to Kitchener. They are safe here. They won't be sold, tinkered with, or >cannabalized. They >won't even be LOOKED AT. dosen't p1 ensure that? -Mike: dogas@leading.net From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 28 07:48:02 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > Perhaps, have the machines run the demos that they were running in the > showrooms? Commodore's Christmas Demo! Yeah! (Though I'm not sure that the Eatons 3rd floor glass counter would really qualify as a 'showroom'. ;) ) (The Christmas Demo has become somewhat of a minor tradition in my house during the Christmas season. I even have a videotaped backup in case the C64 fails to start. I get a kick out of the blinking "ONLY $895" these days.) As the purchaser of mostly Thrift-Store Classics (i.e. incomplete, dirty, sometimes broken machines for $10 and less) I really don't know what was being displayed in the showroom. I remember the cool 3D wireframe stuff on the Northstar Advantage, the Juggler and Boing! demos on the Amiga, the aforementioned Christmas Demo, and that's about it. Oh, and the TPCIDEMO.COM program from the TeleVideo TPC-I CP/M disk, also with (slow) 3D wireframe stuff. Does anyone remember what the VIC-20 was usually up to in department store displays? PETs? Apple ][s? The TRS-80 Color Computers were usually sitting at the BASIC prompt, and I'd program something naughty into them and walk away. :) (OK, it was usually just 10 "TRASH-80S SUCK!": GOTO 10 but I was young and still into platform wars.) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 28 07:59:38 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Thanks to the booming economy, space is just not cheap these days, so > there will be trade offs. Ah! So there are tangible benefits to living in depressed areas like Montreal. :) (What is it, 11% unemployment these days? But cheap rent and lots of vacancies...) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 10:08:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990327154854.2ed7bba0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328100806.3037c262@intellistar.net> At 06:45 PM 3/27/99 -0800, Sam wrote: >On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas >> (two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* >> S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. > >You should have gotten the Lisa 2's. They are closer to the original Lisa >than the 2/10. The Lisa 2 is really just a Lisa 1 with the 400K 3.5" >drive and an adaptor board. I didn't have any choice. Someone else grabbed the other two. I was lucky to get this one. Here's the story: I was walking around with another guy and someone we both knew drove in so we stopped to talk to him. He mentioned that he had three Lisas and we nearly had fits. We "persauded" him to go back home and get them. The other guy stood right at the seller's spot for over an hour till he returned. As soon as the seller returned he grabbed the two best looking machines. But I did OK, the machine I got had an internal hard drive, the other two didn't. I also found a complete Zorba system while I was waiting for him to return. > >You saw an S-100 chassis made by TI (Texas Instruments I presume?) and >didn't pick it up? Whatta you mean I didn't pick it up? It's sitting in the middle of the kitchen floor :-/ Turns out that it's not exactly S-100. The sockets are right but they're off set to one side of the card slot so S-100 cards won't fit in. Someone else said it was for some kind of TI computer. Too bad. It's a super nice box. I'm thinking of trying to modify it to fit S-100. Joe > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 10:10:18 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <01be791c$ae68c6e0$fbc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328101018.48ff31d6@intellistar.net> Titusville. Joe At 08:12 AM 3/28/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Joe, what ham fest was that? ;) > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, March 27, 1999 2:46 PM >Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest > > >> Went to another one this morning. Didn't find much except three Lisas >>(two Lisa 2s and one Lisa 2/10), two HP 715/50s, two Zorbas and a *NICE* >>S-100 chassis made by TI. I managed to get the L 2/10 and the Zorbas. >>Pictures and questions to follow. >> >> Joe >> >> PS the HPs are still available if anyone wants them. >> >> > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 28 09:56:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990328100806.3037c262@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Whatta you mean I didn't pick it up? It's sitting in the middle of the > kitchen floor :-/ Turns out that it's not exactly S-100. The sockets are > right but they're off set to one side of the card slot so S-100 cards won't > fit in. Someone else said it was for some kind of TI computer. Too bad. > It's a super nice box. I'm thinking of trying to modify it to fit S-100. Might this be a chassis for a TI9900 system, Allison? If so, I'd leave it in tact as bait for the cards that go with it. Otherwise, if you modify it you'll attract S-100 cards with the edge connectors cut off. :( Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 28 10:23:04 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: NEED RL11 and cables Message-ID: I am still looking for a good working RL11 [M7762] card and the flat cable/adapter set for RL02s. (or two..) I will buy it, trade for it, cajole fo it.. whatever. If you have just the card itself, I could probably make the adpaters, but I'd rather just plug the stuff in. Also I would like to get the schematics for this card. I have printsets for the RL02s. Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 10:40:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <003e01be7939$cc50d9a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Yes, that's probably a chassis for a 9900 system. I once marveled at the similarity to S-100 when it was shown to me in a TI sales office when I was considering using TI's 9940 single-chip microcontroller in a product. I've never seen one of these boxes that wasn't for sale, and the last time was ~20 years ago. They're quite an oddity. I wouldn't hold my breath until I see cards for one, though. This card set was not the same as the 990 card set. You can tell these cards, even with the connectors cut off, from S-100 by virtue of the S-100's on-board voltage regulators, so I wouldn't let that worry me. As little as I do remember about the system, it was quite unremarkable, not "better" than S-100 because of the lack of software, and not more attractive than it was because TI was the only vendor of boards, hence tye owned the market for both software and hardware. I'm not even sure it was appreciably faster than the typically 8-bit processors found on the S-100. It did claim to be a 16-bit architecture. They did claim to have SOME software, though I don't remember much about it. Unfortunately, I recall having tossed out what documents I had about five years ago. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Whatta you mean I didn't pick it up? It's sitting in the middle of the >> kitchen floor :-/ Turns out that it's not exactly S-100. The sockets are >> right but they're off set to one side of the card slot so S-100 cards won't >> fit in. Someone else said it was for some kind of TI computer. Too bad. >> It's a super nice box. I'm thinking of trying to modify it to fit S-100. > >Might this be a chassis for a TI9900 system, Allison? > >If so, I'd leave it in tact as bait for the cards that go with it. >Otherwise, if you modify it you'll attract S-100 cards with the edge >connectors cut off. :( > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Mar 28 11:18:49 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? Message-ID: <199903281718.JAA15709@saul7.u.washington.edu> Periodically I swing by Surplus Property here. It's very disappointing; there hasn't been anything exciting in a few years. Also, the University gets first dibs at surplussed things; whatever survives is auctioned off in big lots. So whatever interesting things ARE there tend to either disappear again or be sold with a pallet of uninteresting things. Having said that, I did see a good amount of Model 100s and their accessories (disk drives, manuals) and a couple of other Tandy things (cassette recorders). Is any of this especially rare? Some machines might be model 102s, since I saw the 102 tecnical manual. It would be a fair amount of effort to get everything; I might be able to convince the surplus people to make the Tandy stuff their own lot, but I'm not optimistic about that. -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Mar 28 11:29:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903281718.JAA15709@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Having said that, I did see a good amount of Model 100s and their > accessories (disk drives, manuals) and a couple of other Tandy things > (cassette recorders). Is any of this especially rare? Some machines might > be model 102s, since I saw the 102 tecnical manual. It would be a fair > amount of effort to get everything; I might be able to convince the surplus > people to make the Tandy stuff their own lot, but I'm not optimistic about > that. Sometimes the auction house lets you take what you are interested in off the pallet if you're the high bidder and leave the rest. They then auction off what's left on the pallet at the next auction. Being a university auction they might look at you and laugh but its worth a shot. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 11:43:32 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. In-Reply-To: <01be791d$97782b00$fbc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > >So it is because of this experience I recommend shipping any precious > >minicomputers > >to Kitchener. They are safe here. They won't be sold, tinkered with, or > >cannabalized. They > >won't even be LOOKED AT. > > dosen't p1 ensure that? Depends on whether P1 ever ported himself to those architectures. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 28 11:38:11 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <003e01be7939$cc50d9a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Yes, that's probably a chassis for a 9900 system. I once marveled at the >similarity to S-100 when it was shown to me in a TI sales office when I was >considering using TI's 9940 single-chip microcontroller in a product. Is this thing in any way related to the TI-99/4A expansion box? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 11:51:00 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Following up to my own message, must be a slow news day) On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Mike wrote: > > > >So it is because of this experience I recommend shipping any precious > > >minicomputers > > >to Kitchener. They are safe here. They won't be sold, tinkered with, or > > >cannabalized. They > > >won't even be LOOKED AT. > > > > dosen't p1 ensure that? > > Depends on whether P1 ever ported himself to those architectures. > -- There's also some question as to whether P1 is Y2k compliant. 8-)} -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun Mar 28 12:37:51 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: NEED RL11 and cables Message-ID: <004501be794a$731a0b20$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I know I have some of M7762's and the cab kits to go with them but I won't be able to dig them out until next weekend at the earliest. I am open to swaps $ whatever. Dan > > > I am still looking for a good working RL11 [M7762] card and the >flat cable/adapter set for RL02s. (or two..) > > I will buy it, trade for it, cajole fo it.. whatever. > > If you have just the card itself, I could probably make the >adpaters, but I'd rather just plug the stuff in. > > Also I would like to get the schematics for this card. I have >printsets for the RL02s. > > > Cheers > >John > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 28 13:59:37 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest References: <3.0.1.16.19990327174802.43ff978a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36FE8A29.824E27EF@rain.org> Joe wrote: > > RATS! I think you're right! I just brought it in and checked. The slots > are wider than S-100 and the card sockets are offset to one side so S-100 > cards hit one edge and won't go in. It also has a switcher power supply so > it is regulated off the cards. Too bad, it is really a nice box. I may > modify it back to S-100. Anyway what can you expect for $3? I am just curious what the size of the slots are. I have a couple of cards that I thought were S-100 when I got them, but they are a bit narrower than an S-100 card, and the fingers are wider. The dimensions of these cards are 8 3/4 " wide, 4 1/2 " high (excluding fingers), 7 5/8" finger width with 5/8" to the edge of the card on left side (component side up) and 1/2" to the edge of the board on the right. The one I just grabbed says "638493 Digital Timer" on the solder side of the board. From p1 at p1.brouhaha.com Sun Mar 28 14:11:00 1999 From: p1 at p1.brouhaha.com (p1@p1.brouhaha.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. In-Reply-To: <01be791d$97782b00$fbc962cf@devlaptop> (dogas@leading.net) References: <01be791d$97782b00$fbc962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <19990328201100.15780.qmail@brouhaha.com> > dosen't p1 ensure that? OOLCAY ITAY. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 15:11:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <001001be795f$9133d5e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Nope, the 99/4 was never intended to fill any niche other than the home/video-game market. The 990 series was a "business minicomputer" while the 9900 was a microcomputer development environment. It's kind-of like comparing a 747 with a bicycle. Each has its place, of course. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 10:44 AM Subject: Re: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>Yes, that's probably a chassis for a 9900 system. I once marveled at the >>similarity to S-100 when it was shown to me in a TI sales office when I was >>considering using TI's 9940 single-chip microcontroller in a product. > >Is this thing in any way related to the TI-99/4A expansion box? > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > From william at ans.net Sun Mar 28 15:13:31 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: BA Stuff FS (fwd) Message-ID: Please contact him... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:31:37 -0500 From: don merz <71333.144@compuserve.com> To: Old Tube Radios Subject: BA Stuff FS Boatanchor Goodies For Sale CONTACT: Don Merz, N3RHT, 47 Hazel Drive, Mt. Lebanon, PA 15228 71333.144@compuserve.com [tube stuff snipped] DEC PDP-8F power supply. Big supply with 2 8" fans. DEC part number 70-13323-00. With AC-cord and output connector panel. This thing supplies +5, -5, -15 and +20, volts DC all at substantial ratings. Seems to be in nice shape. Worked when pulled from service. $30 WANTED Manual copy for Heath IG-1272 Audio Generator Manual copy for B&W Model 400 Distortion Meter CONTACT: Don Merz, N3RHT, 47 Hazel Drive, Mt. Lebanon, PA 15228 71333.144@compuserve.com From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 15:17:30 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest Message-ID: <001d01be7960$641a0240$0100c0a8@fuj03> There were several manufacturers of cards shaped more or less like the S-100. One of the more common ones was the MOTOROLA EXORCISOR series, which were MOT's development system for their 8-bit devices. The way to start figuring out what you've got is to count the contact positions at the edge connector and determine the pin spacing. The S-100 used 100 contacts at 0.125" spacing. It also had on-board voltage regulator(s). Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest > > >Joe wrote: >> >> RATS! I think you're right! I just brought it in and checked. The slots >> are wider than S-100 and the card sockets are offset to one side so S-100 >> cards hit one edge and won't go in. It also has a switcher power supply so >> it is regulated off the cards. Too bad, it is really a nice box. I may >> modify it back to S-100. Anyway what can you expect for $3? > >I am just curious what the size of the slots are. I have a couple of cards >that I thought were S-100 when I got them, but they are a bit narrower than >an S-100 card, and the fingers are wider. The dimensions of these cards are >8 3/4 " wide, 4 1/2 " high (excluding fingers), 7 5/8" finger width with >5/8" to the edge of the card on left side (component side up) and 1/2" to >the edge of the board on the right. The one I just grabbed says "638493 >Digital Timer" on the solder side of the board. From william at ans.net Sun Mar 28 15:15:15 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. In-Reply-To: <199903280409.XAA06292@golden.net> Message-ID: > Almost all of March I've been trying to seed the small collector-base in > southern Ontario by selling a bunch of DG NOVAs. NOT ONE TAKER nor > interested party. Remarkable. Well, Carl and I have lots of Novas already...dig up an original Nova, and you could have a deal! William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 28 12:36:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 28, 99 06:27:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2763 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990328/a15ab415/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 28 12:40:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 28, 99 06:34:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990328/eb19d86d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 28 12:45:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 28, 99 08:48:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1147 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990328/8aa843bf/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Mar 28 15:23:21 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 28, 99 09:29:00 am Message-ID: <199903282123.NAA29805@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Sometimes the auction house lets you take what you are interested in off > the pallet if you're the high bidder and leave the rest. They then > auction off what's left on the pallet at the next auction. Being a > university auction they might look at you and laugh but its worth a shot. The surplus people here aren't very flexible. Your approach might work but we'll see. Anyway the auction isn't for several weeks (auctions happen just before the beginning of the quarter; one just happened). It's possible that Surplus is following a rule they didn't create (it could even be a state law, since the UW is a state university). I think they're also rather lazy. They auction off PC compatibles and Macs individually. Even modern but exotic things like Suns seem to remain in a pile. -- Derek From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Mar 28 16:14:37 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Jon Titus / VCF 3.0 Message-ID: <003e01be7968$5f54b860$54f438cb@davie> Just passing on a message from Jon Titus, the inventor of the Mark-8 Microcomputer (1974)... "I don't remember whether or not I gave you a formal acceptance for the Vintage Computer Festival. Put me down as a Yes. Would you have the organizers keep in touch with me about actual dates, etc? I'll need to do some advanced planning, and maybe I can include the trip as part of a business trip. Cheers, Jon" A From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 28 17:58:26 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! Message-ID: <199903282358.AA08647@world.std.com> It's finally been done... after many weeks of talking about it and not having it happen, Allison and I drove up to New Hampshire this morning and drove back with a couple of tall (H960, 6') racks with the following: pdp-8/a pdp-8/e pdp-8/f lab-8/e pdp-11/34a vr14 lps DECwriterII 3 RL01s 1 RX01 3 Diablo RK05-work-similar TU56 DECtape dual drive Funny thing... the pdp-8/e was originally Allison's... she had given it several years ago to the guy from whom I got all of the above... In return for her help, she took the pdp-8/f (smaller unit than the pdp-8/e), a core stack from the -8/e, and a second serial line card. I believe she is pleased... I know I am... I took pictures and hope to document the procedure at some point in the future... Now to get them all wired back up and tested out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ p.s. YIPPEE!! From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Mar 28 18:43:22 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? Message-ID: <003601be797d$26686000$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> By all means if you can get a shot at it do it, get them all. I would be interested in a complete set of each:) Francois >Having said that, I did see a good amount of Model 100s and their >accessories (disk drives, manuals) and a couple of other Tandy things >(cassette recorders). Is any of this especially rare? Some machines might >be model 102s, since I saw the 102 tecnical manual. It would be a fair >amount of effort to get everything; I might be able to convince the surplus >people to make the Tandy stuff their own lot, but I'm not optimistic about >that. > >-- Derek > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Mar 28 18:53:46 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <003601be797d$26686000$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> from "Francois" at Mar 28, 99 06:43:22 pm Message-ID: <199903290053.QAA07692@saul7.u.washington.edu> > By all means if you can get a shot at it do it, get them all. > I would be interested in a complete set of each:) > Francois Please clarify what comes in a set. Previously, I had only seen a rather battered 100 (in one of the back rooms of the computer lab). When I went to the surplus warehouse the other day, I saw an assortment of machines (some in cases), some disk drives, and a few different manuals. They weren't well-organized; I still don't know what came with the 100 "out of the box". -- Derek From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 20:43:30 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <36FE8A29.824E27EF@rain.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19990327174802.43ff978a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328204330.33b77e9c@intellistar.net> At 11:59 AM 3/28/99 -0800, you wrote: > > >Joe wrote: >> >> RATS! I think you're right! I just brought it in and checked. The slots >> are wider than S-100 and the card sockets are offset to one side so S-100 >> cards hit one edge and won't go in. It also has a switcher power supply so >> it is regulated off the cards. Too bad, it is really a nice box. I may >> modify it back to S-100. Anyway what can you expect for $3? > >I am just curious what the size of the slots are. I have a couple of cards >that I thought were S-100 when I got them, but they are a bit narrower than >an S-100 card, and the fingers are wider. The dimensions of these cards are >8 3/4 " wide, 4 1/2 " high (excluding fingers), 7 5/8" finger width with >5/8" to the edge of the card on left side (component side up) and 1/2" to >the edge of the board on the right. The one I just grabbed says "638493 >Digital Timer" on the solder side of the board. Marvin, It looks like the cards for this one are 11" wide and about 6 1/2" deep. The fingers should be about 6 1/4" wide and are 1/2" from the left side. I don't think you're card will fit this. The card is marked "Assy No. 991632-0001" and (in big letters) "TM 990/520". Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 20:45:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: <001001be795f$9133d5e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328204558.2fbf19d8@intellistar.net> I found the markings "TM 990/520" on the MB so it looks like it's for a 990 series. Joe At 02:11 PM 3/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Nope, the 99/4 was never intended to fill any niche other than the >home/video-game market. The 990 series was a "business minicomputer" while >the 9900 was a microcomputer development environment. It's kind-of like >comparing a 747 with a bicycle. Each has its place, of course. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Max Eskin >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 10:44 AM >Subject: Re: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest > > >>On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>>Yes, that's probably a chassis for a 9900 system. I once marveled at the >>>similarity to S-100 when it was shown to me in a TI sales office when I >was >>>considering using TI's 9940 single-chip microcontroller in a product. >> >>Is this thing in any way related to the TI-99/4A expansion box? >> >>--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 21:05:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328210542.2fbf0f1c@intellistar.net> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of them? He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is worth with the alignment disks and manuals? Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 21:11:41 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328211141.2fbf9026@intellistar.net> At 06:34 AM 3/28/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >Maybe next month I'll drag home something with an 8" drive. :) > Doug, how far are you from British Columbia? I know where there's a Tektronix 4051 AND a 4052 up for sale. Both can use optional 8" drives, I think they have drives but I'm not sure. I'm in Florida, so it's a mite too far for me to go get. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 20:53:00 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Just another Rinky-Dink Florida hamfest In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990328100806.3037c262@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328205300.2fbf172a@intellistar.net> At 07:56 AM 3/28/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Might this be a chassis for a TI9900 system, Allison? Yeap, I think it is. I found "TM 990/520" marked on the MB. Guess I'll leave it alone for the time being. Anybody need it? I have to get some of this stuff out of here and I don't really have the room to keep it. > >If so, I'd leave it in tact as bait for the cards that go with it. >Otherwise, if you modify it you'll attract S-100 cards with the edge >connectors cut off. :( Not if I move the MB over and modify the card cage. Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Mar 28 19:41:59 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903290053.QAA07692@saul7.u.washington.edu> from Derek Peschel at "Mar 28, 1999 04:53:46 pm" Message-ID: <199903290141.BAA05585@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > By all means if you can get a shot at it do it, get them all. > > I would be interested in a complete set of each:) > > Francois > > Please clarify what comes in a set. Previously, I had only seen a rather > battered 100 (in one of the back rooms of the computer lab). When I went to > the surplus warehouse the other day, I saw an assortment of machines (some > in cases), some disk drives, and a few different manuals. They weren't > well-organized; I still don't know what came with the 100 "out of the box". > Well, There were model 100, then 102, then 200. I doubt that anything came with it out of the box except a manual of some sort. I too would be interested in a few of these. I've been rather lax in obtaining TRS equipment, and so I only have a TRS-80 model 4, and its in the wrong case (it looks like a model 3). -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 19:57:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <001301be7987$71d6c900$0100c0a8@fuj03> Speaking of the rebirth of IMSAI . . . Has anyone seen anything new on their web page? I've been following a few of the items and have seen no changes since the 20th or so. I'm not sure of the market for a hot pentium system packaged behind an Imsai trademark and front panel. I'd much rather see them pick up the support thread for the already existing Imsai-branded hardware and publish the existing doc's on their web site. I'm sure there is a market for between 50 and 500 of each of several boards, and, if he already has the rights and the artwork, reproducing the originals. If he ( Todd Fischer ) made them, perhaps to order, and perhaps with a dry-film solder mask and high-quality bright-white silk screened legends, with some jumper definitions as are on many no-longer-current PC ISA add-ons, to distinguish between the old boards and the new as well as to minimize the support requirements, I don't think he'd lose his shirt. I've been after the original spec's for the IMSAI pre-1977 bus timing, etc, in case anyone has that data in shareable form. I've found the schematic for my IMSAI PIO-6 board but only half the manual, fortunately with the schematic, of the PIO-4. I don't seem to have any bus timing informtion, though. Any help with this would be appreciated. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> As the purchaser of mostly Thrift-Store Classics (i.e. incomplete, dirty, >> sometimes broken machines for $10 and less) I really don't know what was >> being displayed in the showroom. I remember the cool 3D wireframe stuff >> on the Northstar Advantage, the Juggler and Boing! demos on the Amiga, the >> aforementioned Christmas Demo, and that's about it. > > >There was a (tape) program for the TRS-80 model 1 called (IIRC) Micro >Marquee. It let you type in a message and it would display it on large >characters built from the graphics blocks (something like about 12 >characters/line, 3 lines/screen), scrolling up the screen. > >There was a default built-in message which seemed to be advertising for >the machine. Something like 'Hello, I'm the new TRS-80 computer that >you've heard so much about...' I've always assumed that was a shop demo >program. > >There was a demo program for the PERQ. It showed some very fast graphics >(windows moving over the screen, lines being drawn, etc). AFAIK, they >_were_ being created in real-time - it wasn't just a set of full-screen >bitmaps. Don't think you could call it a 'store demo', though. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 20:08:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes Message-ID: <003001be7988$ff254ba0$0100c0a8@fuj03> If you have to align an 8"drive, the alignment diskette is pretty essential, i.e. you can't really do well without it. The 5.25" diskettes are about as easy to manage with software and one of the "digital alignment diskettes" if you can get them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he >threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( > He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >(note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of >them? > > He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and >8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > > Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > > Joe > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 20:11:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: 8" drives Message-ID: <003501be7989$65104c80$0100c0a8@fuj03> I've thrown out LOTS of 8" drives. I have a few packaged and, in some cases, powered single as well as double sided drives if anyone is willing to pay the freight. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Hard-sectored 5.25" disks >At 06:34 AM 3/28/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > > >>Maybe next month I'll drag home something with an 8" drive. :) >> > > Doug, how far are you from British Columbia? I know where there's a >Tektronix 4051 AND a 4052 up for sale. Both can use optional 8" drives, I >think they have drives but I'm not sure. I'm in Florida, so it's a mite too >far for me to go get. > > Joe > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 20:12:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <003801be7989$90f665a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> The Xerox 820 is one I really liked for a while. It only supported single-sided single density drives, but had on-board terminal-style video circuitry (24 lines of 80 characters) and used a BIOS which could be banked in and out, which I don't know for certain even banked in the entire BIOS. I once concluded that it only banked in the parts it needed at the time, thereby leaving a larger TPA. I'm probably wrong about this, but I don know the hardware was present to allow this. With the addition of a little daughterboard from Denver Business Systems, which replaced the 1771 FDC on the board, the device was double-density capable once the BIOS was patched. I even made and sold a daugherboard which replaced the CPU in order to interface WD1000-05 and 1002-05 boards (bridge controllers) by Western Digital. Both this board (the 820) and the TVI 80x seemed to be pretty solid boards for CP/M. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he >threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( > He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >(note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of >them? > > He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and >8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > > Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > > Joe > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 28 20:26:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! Message-ID: <199903290226.AA03566@world.std.com> OK, this is totally off topic, but if you haven't heard the weekends news I'd recommend checking out the following URL: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/melissavirus.html Normally I discount these as hoaxes, but this isn't. Thankfully I'm one of the 'Dinosaurs' at work that refuses to give up an antique RS/6000 for a nice shiny new NT box, so I'm still on UNIX e-mail. The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 28 20:58:03 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:24 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! Message-ID: <199903290258.AA08626@world.std.com> >Now to go through the bring up for a machine that may have been sitting >for too long. Any thoughts out there on the 8F power supply? I plan to >pull all the cards and load it so I don't cook anything. Didn't a post come through here just earlier today about someone offering a pdp-8/f power supply for $30? >This was a fun move and Megan made it easier to do it by being persistant >and finding a good rental truck vendor with a liftgate. Nice truck! >Everything moved and none broken. A handy item to have are the nylon web >straps. They are handy to keep stuff on slides from sliding and also made >securing the racks to the walls of the truck. Other things were plenty >of rope and a good pair of movers dollies. I'm going to document all that we used... since I'm taking chemistry, it may just end up looking like a lab report... (abstract, apparatus used, procedures, actual write-up)... At this point I'd like to heartilly recommend Budget Rentals. They do have lift-gate trucks... the one I got was 15' with 7' inside vertical dimension. The truck is 11' total height, it handled really well, and the 90 mile move was about $65 itself. Unfortunately, since the budget place wasn't open today, I had to rent yesterday, for two days, so the total price will be higher. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Mar 28 21:01:35 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 28, 1999 06:52:21 PM Message-ID: <199903290301.UAA21362@calico.litterbox.com> > > OK, this is totally off topic, but if you haven't heard the weekends news > I'd recommend checking out the following URL: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/melissavirus.html > > Normally I discount these as hoaxes, but this isn't. Thankfully I'm one of > the 'Dinosaurs' at work that refuses to give up an antique RS/6000 for a > nice shiny new NT box, so I'm still on UNIX e-mail. > > The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail > program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". Nope, no hoax. I got a CERT advisory on this one. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 28 21:06:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199903290306.AA16397@world.std.com> Message-ID: The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing 5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well MS-DOS. Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. One problem is that many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable machine. On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's > hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he > threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( > He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck > (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no > complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks > for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, > CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of > them? > > He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and > 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is > worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > > Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > > Joe > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Mar 28 21:02:07 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! Message-ID: <007d01be7990$914f56e0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 29 March 1999 11:56 Subject: Re: The move is accomplished! >Everything moved and none broken Good catch / nice work ladies. I have to move a 6410/6240/HSC70/RA9x/TA79 Cluster in a couple of weeks. I hope it goes as well for me. (But it probably won't). Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Mar 28 23:48:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990328234859.47676dd2@intellistar.net> At 06:52 PM 3/28/99 -0800, you wrote: >OK, this is totally off topic, but if you haven't heard the weekends news >I'd recommend checking out the following URL: > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/melissavirus.html > >Normally I discount these as hoaxes, but this isn't. Thankfully I'm one of >the 'Dinosaurs' at work that refuses to give up an antique RS/6000 for a >nice shiny new NT box, so I'm still on UNIX e-mail. > >The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail >program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Mar 28 21:57:24 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! In-Reply-To: <199903290258.AA08626@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990328193616.00a94d50@mcmanis.com> At 09:58 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Megan wrote: >>Now to go through the bring up for a machine that may have been sitting >>for too long. Any thoughts out there on the 8F power supply? I plan to >>pull all the cards and load it so I don't cook anything. > >Didn't a post come through here just earlier today about someone >offering a pdp-8/f power supply for $30? That would be Don Merz, I bought the 8/F front panel from him :-) As for the power supply it depends on the vintage. If its the linear supply (on 8/M's and 8/F's that would be before about 73 then you just have to watch the caps. If its the switcher (mounted in the rear of the cabinet with a panel that says "Don't operate for more than 15 minutes with the cover removed" then the big danger is the switching transistors. --Chuck From max82 at surfree.com Sun Mar 28 21:52:36 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! In-Reply-To: <007d01be7990$914f56e0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: >I hope it goes as well for me. (But it probably won't). If you expect to mess up, you'll probably find some way to do just that... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Mar 28 21:54:54 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! In-Reply-To: <199903290226.AA03566@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 28, 99 09:26:21 pm Message-ID: <199903290354.TAA02674@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: The 8/f supply is documented on my web site, see http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8. I had problems with mine that were traced to a shorted bypass cap. Kevin > > < > > You bet! I've wanted a physically small 8 to hack with for years. > This was lots of fun saving some really unique interesting machines. > > Now to go through the bring up for a machine that may have been sitting for > too long. Any thoughts out there on the 8F power supply? I plan to pull > all the cards and load it so I don't cook anything. > > > This was a fun move and Megan made it easier to do it by being persistant > and finding a good rental truck vendor with a liftgate. Nice truck! > Everything moved and none broken. A handy item to have are the nylon web > straps. They are handy to keep stuff on slides from sliding and also made > securing the racks to the walls of the truck. Other things were plenty of > rope and a good pair of movers dollies. > > > Allison > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 29 00:07:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes In-Reply-To: <003001be7988$ff254ba0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990329000755.4767ae28@intellistar.net> At 07:08 PM 3/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >If you have to align an 8"drive, the alignment diskette is pretty essential, >i.e. you can't really do well without it. Yes I know, I used to repair and alignment drives. What I wanted to know is what the whole setup is worth and weather I should buy it. He wants a couple of hundred bucks for it. He said it cost ~$3500 new. The 5.25" diskettes are about as >easy to manage with software and one of the "digital alignment diskettes" if >you can get them. I doubt 5.25" drives are worth reapiring, even if you could get the parts. Joe > >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 6:46 PM >Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > > >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >>hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he >>threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >>(note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >>complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >>for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >>CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of >>them? >> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and >>8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >>worth with the alignment disks and manuals? >> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. >> >> Joe >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 29 00:15:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990328210542.2fbf0f1c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990329001529.48871744@intellistar.net> Merle, At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well >MS-DOS. Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I got in this load. > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? One problem is that >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable >machine. Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the 820-II have? Thanks for the info. Joe > >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of >> them? >> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? >> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. >> >> Joe >> >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 28 22:08:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! Message-ID: <199903290408.AA22071@world.std.com> <>for too long. Any thoughts out there on the 8F power supply? I plan to <>pull all the cards and load it so I don't cook anything. < GAWD! The 8080 data sheet! I wonder if my archives go back that far . . . I know the signals are modeled after the 8080, but are they all 8080 signals? I guess it's no wonder people liked the 8085, with its silly muxed address bus better than the 8080 . . . Soooo . . . the signals were named the same also, eh? pSYNC, /pWR, sMEMR, etc??? Is there a web site which has details on the 8080=>'696 standard decision tree? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI > >Read the 8080 data sheet for the part running a 2mhz clock... the rest is >obvious to the point of painful. > > >Thre wasn't any bus timing info published. The S100 bus was based on >the raw 8080 timing. All the bus was is the buffered 8080 signals plus a >few handy ones. A quick look at the processor board is everything. > >Allison > From mbg at world.std.com Sun Mar 28 22:15:43 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus Message-ID: <199903290415.AA26089@world.std.com> >The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail >program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". The solution in a nutshell... run Linux, or some other more reasonable OS... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 28 22:26:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes Message-ID: <001801be799c$48639f20$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't know how much a couple of hundred bucks is worth to you. You can use an operational S-100 computer running CP/M, or even an 820 to run the drive for alignement. Though I've had an alignment tool for many years, I usually use a computer. It's the alignment diskettes that are scarce. If you have a digital alignment diskette, made by Dysan, among others, and the software to run one, it makes alignment easy. If you need to read a 5-1/4" floppy, a drive you can buy today won't help you much. I keep a half dozen of the old DS minifloppies around. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Drive alignment tool, diskettes >At 07:08 PM 3/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >>If you have to align an 8"drive, the alignment diskette is pretty essential, >>i.e. you can't really do well without it. > > Yes I know, I used to repair and alignment drives. What I wanted to >know is what the whole setup is worth and weather I should buy it. He >wants a couple of hundred bucks for it. He said it cost ~$3500 new. > > The 5.25" diskettes are about as >>easy to manage with software and one of the "digital alignment diskettes" if >>you can get them. > > I doubt 5.25" drives are worth reapiring, even if you could get the parts. > > Joe >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joe >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 6:46 PM >>Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest >> >> >>> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >>>hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he >>>threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( >>> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >>>(note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >>>complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >>>for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >>>CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of >>>them? >>> >>> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and >>>8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >>>worth with the alignment disks and manuals? >>> >>> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >> > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Mar 28 22:39:56 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: <199903290415.AA26089@world.std.com> from Megan at "Mar 28, 1999 11:15:43 pm" Message-ID: <199903290440.XAA31142@pechter.dyndns.org> > >The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail > >program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". > > The solution in a nutshell... run Linux, or some other more reasonable > OS... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer Actually the problem (melissa) is a Microsoft Macro Virus. So, if you don't have any Microsoft products containing their Word Basic Macro language you may not have any problem (no matter how bad a joke their OS is). The problem stems from a Macro language that can grab full control of your system. If my mail program on Unix could run SUID perl scrips out of the box it would be just as bad. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Mar 28 22:52:36 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Canadian Computers (was: Re: AES 7100) In-Reply-To: <199903240613.BAA08630@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Sounds like Doug has a head-startt in collecting Canadian-made computers > what with the Hyperion and the AES. Don't you have a MICOM or something that is Canadian-made? Does my "Made in Canada" VIC-20 count? ;) > Now to get an ICON and a MCM 70. I have a couple of clone types. A Tryllium > 286 and another, a MAX , a 386 with dreadfull physical attributes, looks > like an oversized XT, but nice internal architecture, OEMed by a Quebec > company whose name escapes me at the moment. Is the MAX related at all to the Comterm Max? The high school I attended added some Comterm Max machines in '85 or '86, and there's a photo of another Walker using one in the 1986 yearbook (any relation of yours? ;) ). I still can't remember the name of the Quebec Government's French imports, so maybe these are them. When it comes to clone machines, there must be scores of cheesy little Canadian Apple ][ clones about. Like my Microcom. I've passed up at least 10 Microcoms over the years (all with slightly different keyboards). A friend of mine has a Unitron II+ clone, there were Granny Smiths, Oranges, McIntoshes, Lemons, etc... And there are always the "here today, gone the same day" PC clones that aren't really worth mentioning. My father had a "TEC MASTER Advanced System AT+" (<- from front plate) from "Canadian Data", which I think was just a run-of-the-mill-who-cares IBM-AT clone. It died when the batteries (four AA cells stuck to the power supply with double-sided tape that gave-way) leaked onto the motherboard. Were there any other _real_ computer companies up here? Companies that did something original instead of just slapping a badge on a Korean clonebox? (I'm not asking about expansion card companies for PCs (e.g. Matrox), just about companies that did something classic, genuinely interesting and/or historically important.) We could probably make a claim on Commodore the same way we claim Alexander Graham Bell, but the computer business was mostly based elsewhere. :) > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Mar 28 22:56:47 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Budget rentals Message-ID: I recently rented a Budget cargo van one-way from Seattle to Los Angeles, and filled it with about 1.5 kilopounds of DEC Stuff. I drove straight thru all one day. The van was comfortable, handled well, got great gas mileage, with a handy cruise control. 1139 miles in 18 hrs.... but all-in-all a nice trip. It was $269 plus the petrol... so if you're contemplating a Rescue Mission, you might try your local Budget place. And, I'm not a Budget employee, nor do I play one on Television! Cheers John From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 23:16:12 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903290053.QAA07692@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Please clarify what comes in a set. Previously, I had only seen a rather > battered 100 (in one of the back rooms of the computer lab). When I went to > the surplus warehouse the other day, I saw an assortment of machines (some > in cases), some disk drives, and a few different manuals. They weren't > well-organized; I still don't know what came with the 100 "out of the box". Out of the box, a Model 100 came with a soft case and a manual. The AC adapter was extra (and a couple of months late). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 23:23:06 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903290141.BAA05585@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > I too would be interested in a few of these. I've been rather lax in > obtaining TRS equipment, and so I only have a TRS-80 model 4, and its > in the wrong case (it looks like a model 3). What, a Model 4 in a grey case? Not too many of the Model III --> 4 upgrades were sold, what you've got is uncommon. If you mean something that looks like a Model III but the case is white, that _is_ a Model 4, stock issue. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From donm at cts.com Sun Mar 28 23:16:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes In-Reply-To: <003001be7988$ff254ba0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If you have to align an 8"drive, the alignment diskette is pretty essential, > i.e. you can't really do well without it. The 5.25" diskettes are about as > easy to manage with software and one of the "digital alignment diskettes" if > you can get them. I am pretty sure that they are still available from: Accurite Technologues, Inc. 231 Charcot Avenue San Jose CA 95131-1107 - don > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 6:46 PM > Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > > > > Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's > >hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he > >threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( > > He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck > >(note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no > >complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks > >for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, > >CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of > >them? > > > > He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and > >8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is > >worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > > > > Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > > > > Joe > > > > From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 23:29:30 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, this is totally off topic, but if you haven't heard the weekends news > I'd recommend checking out the following URL: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/melissavirus.html > > Normally I discount these as hoaxes, but this isn't. Thankfully I'm one of > the 'Dinosaurs' at work that refuses to give up an antique RS/6000 for a > nice shiny new NT box, so I'm still on UNIX e-mail. > > The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail > program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". Since I don't run MS-Word on anything at home, and I don't care about the Windows machines in my cube at work, I just don't worry about it. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of email viruses that affect a guy who reads it through a telnet connection. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Mar 28 23:20:52 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at "Mar 29, 1999 00:23:06 am" Message-ID: <199903290520.FAA05859@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > I too would be interested in a few of these. I've been rather lax in > > obtaining TRS equipment, and so I only have a TRS-80 model 4, and its > > in the wrong case (it looks like a model 3). > > What, a Model 4 in a grey case? Not too many of the Model III --> 4 > upgrades were sold, what you've got is uncommon. > > If you mean something that looks like a Model III but the case is > white, that _is_ a Model 4, stock issue. > The kid I got this from had a broken model III with a perfect case, and a working model 4 with a broken case and possibly worn out monitor, and he swapped pieces to come up with a very good model 4 in a grey case. Or i suppose i should say, in a *RARE* grey case ;) -Lawrence LeMay From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 23:33:43 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! In-Reply-To: <199903290258.AA08626@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Megan wrote: > I'm going to document all that we used... since I'm taking chemistry, > it may just end up looking like a lab report... (abstract, apparatus > used, procedures, actual write-up)... Don't forget the "error analysis". That was always my favorite part of lab reports, often longer than the rest, itemizing every possible way I could think of to screw things up by accident, stupidity or intent -- I got verbose on stupidity and intent. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Sun Mar 28 23:56:14 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903290520.FAA05859@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The kid I got this from had a broken model III with a perfect case, > and a working model 4 with a broken case and possibly worn out > monitor, and he swapped pieces to come up with a very good model > 4 in a grey case. Or i suppose i should say, in a *RARE* grey case ;) What you have then is equivalent to an upgraded Model III, since the Model 4 upgrade was essentially a mobo replacement, all other pieces were the same between the two machines. (Well, floppy vendors changed back and forth a couple of times). Though some Mod 4s with green tubes got through the system, I'm told (I never saw one). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Mar 29 01:25:04 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: <199903251555.KAA13395@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Would that Quebec company be Ogivar? > > That's the one. From the little I was able to find , they seemed quite > innovative. OK, Larry, cough it up. Who is Ogivar and what did they achieve? As a Quebecer I'd like to know all about them. Especially in case I run across any of their hardware. :) [I can see it now: "La Regie d'Histoire d'Informatique Quebecois". Maybe I'll propose it. :) :) :) ] > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 29 01:27:27 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 29, 99 00:16:12 am Message-ID: <199903290727.XAA13718@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Out of the box, a Model 100 came with a soft case and a manual. The AC > adapter was extra (and a couple of months late). Thanks, Ward. It helps to have an expert around. However, I saw two different manuals: a user's manual and a pocket-sized "quick reference" manual. (Neither was fantastically informative, unfortunately... I was hoping for info about machine language or a complete table of characters and key codes. There was a table in both manuals, but I'm not sure if I would trust it. Some info about entry points in the technical manual; no source. Considering that the software was written by Microsoft, I'm not surprised, but still.) What's the difference between the 100 and the 102? Any other models? -- Derek From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 29 02:41:44 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! Message-ID: <01be79bf$f9bed460$eec962cf@devlaptop> you go girls. ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 7:00 PM Subject: The move is accomplished! > >It's finally been done... after many weeks of talking about it and >not having it happen, Allison and I drove up to New Hampshire this >morning and drove back with a couple of tall (H960, 6') racks with >the following: > > pdp-8/a > pdp-8/e > pdp-8/f > lab-8/e > pdp-11/34a > vr14 > lps > DECwriterII > 3 RL01s > 1 RX01 > 3 Diablo RK05-work-similar > TU56 DECtape dual drive > >Funny thing... the pdp-8/e was originally Allison's... she had given >it several years ago to the guy from whom I got all of the above... >In return for her help, she took the pdp-8/f (smaller unit than the >pdp-8/e), a core stack from the -8/e, and a second serial line card. > >I believe she is pleased... I know I am... > >I took pictures and hope to document the procedure at some point >in the future... > >Now to get them all wired back up and tested out... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > >p.s. YIPPEE!! > > From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 29 02:46:39 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? Message-ID: <01be79c0$a9a69160$eec962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay >Well, There were model 100, then 102, then 200. I doubt that anything >came with it out of the box except a manual of some sort. > there was also a model 80 - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Mon Mar 29 03:03:28 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. Message-ID: <01be79c3$028e0cc0$eec962cf@devlaptop> Hi p1, I'm glad you're well. Please list nodes. :) Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: p1@p1.brouhaha.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: Re: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada declared safe haven for vintage minicomputers. >> dosen't p1 ensure that? > >OOLCAY ITAY. > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Mar 29 03:34:41 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Decwriter II Message-ID: <003601be79c7$5fabcce0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Anyone know where I'd find a circuit diagram for a Decwriter II? Preferably in South Australia. I have one that thinks it's permanantly out of paper. (No, it doesn't seem to be a microswitch) I suspect it's just a stuck logic state in a 74xx ttl chip, but a circuit will make it a lot easier to find..... Alternatively, if this is a common fault, anyone know which chip is implicated? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 29 04:17:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903290727.XAA13718@saul4.u.washington.edu> References: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 29, 99 00:16:12 am Message-ID: >What's the difference between the 100 and the 102? Any other models? Isn't there some really active Model 100 mailing list or newsgroup even? Regarding the pile, at least in the GSA surplus office I visit, lots are "received" into the warehouse and entered into the computer. To split a lot it has to be somewhat formally "received" again and broken up. They haven't been willing to do it for me. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Mar 29 05:11:35 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video Message-ID: Hi, Along with a dead 4116 (which I recently replaced with a hacked 4164), my Microcom II+ (Apple II+ clone) has a video problem which has kept me from using it for the past few years. Usually when it's cold, the display is a complete mess. As it warms up, the image becomes clear but in four parts. Each quarter (corner) of the screen is a mini-image of what should be displayed on the whole screen. Out of each group of four pixels of what would be displayed normally, each will be displayed in a different quadrant of the screen. After about 10 minutes, the screen becomes normal, with occasional "zaps" and returns to the quartered screen image. Just about everything in the II+ is TTL, so it's probably just a matter of knowing which piece of TTL to replace. Does anyone know? I'm looking at the schematics (for a _real_ Apple II) now, but I have no idea how to locate the problem because there are several lines leading to the video output, and the problem chip may be farther back into the curcuitry and not connected directly to the output. I know that some of you are fairly expert with Apple hardware. I want to get the Microcom II+ working because it's the only machine I've got that's capable of using my Z80 Softcard or my SMC-II Light Pen. Neither will work in my Apple //e. Besides, it also has a better keyboard than the //e, once it's been worked in to cure the 'bounce'. (As an addition note on the machine's history: The machine was repaired at the Microcom store in early 1987, and it came back with a loose, drifty keyboard. I found out the reason was that the keyboard's curcuit board had been cracked and the keyboard only works if it's not screwed in too tightly. I'll get around to looking at that after the video is fixed. It's just one corner that's folded a bit, but there are traces on there! The keyboard tends to report the wrong characters when it's screwed in properly.) -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 29 08:38:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Need software and docs for AlphaMicro Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990329083855.2b4756d0@intellistar.net> Hi All, I've decided to try and get my Alpha Micro 100 running again so I'm hunting for any docs or software that I can find. Can anybody help me? Joe From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Mar 29 06:46:19 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? Message-ID: <004a01be79e2$25851100$0100a8c0@fauradon.pclink.com> http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html is a good place to find info and software for the Model T (100 and the likes). ther is also a very active mailing list where one can gather a lot of information about the Model T (even though it seems like the Y2K is a big issue these days) you can subscribe from the link above. I'm not sure what a complete set is, a nice system would include the disk drive (there were various models) a memory extension and any eripheral that could be available. Apparently the Model T has still a large base of users. Francois >Isn't there some really active Model 100 mailing list or newsgroup even? From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 07:01:20 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: pdp-11s and rainbows becoming available... Message-ID: <199903291301.AA08797@world.std.com> As usual, contact the person in the post, not me... I don't have anything to do with the machines... - - - - - Rainbow and DECMate fans: Please feel free to cross-post in full to any and all interested LISTSERVS and groups: The Press of Atlantic City NJ is about to begin unloading its supply of well-maintained (and heavily used) DEC Rainbows, and possibly other equipment as well, including one or more PDP-11/84s(? the last -11 built, the half-height equivalent of the PDP-11/70) with lots of heavy-duty port equipment, etc. The monitors, keyboards, and I believe power supplies, chasis components and disk drives are identical to those used on the DECMates and some parts seem identical to components of the earlier VT 1XX and 2XX terminals. Final negotiations between newsroom/pressroom management, MIS and corporate are now underway. It appears the situation will be 12 will go immediately upon paperwork approval, with another three dozen or so, operating, plus parts, to follow. Tentative price for working machines with 2 floppies, no HD, a random monochrome monitor (green, white or amber) and random keyboard (many with special labels on keys for the editing system) and varying amounts of memoryis $25, +packing and shipping, or $25 for direct pickup in Pleasantville, NJ (southern NJ, about 12 miles inland from Atlantic City) We (them of us who have used the machines and kept them alive) would prefer seeing them used or put on display or put to use repairing DECMates rather than scrapped. The price for the -11s and/or their components have not been set, but they are due to be out of service by December. Software is a question - I believe the machines can be released with MS-DOS 3.10, but licenses for the newsroom and classified advertising systems would probably have to be negotiated separately. While the Rainbows have passed my personal Y2K basic complience tests (they keep running and reporting the right date) I have not done any file creation or editing tests. MS-DOS 3.10 is NOT supposed to be Y2K complient. The newsroom software (I forget the vendor) and PDP-11 software in use is reportedly NOT Y2K complient, and you wouldn't want to try to run a newspaper off one of these systems anyway unless you're still using Linotypes. Please post any offers to tips@pressplus.com and note in the first line of the body of the message Attention: David M. Razler. I'll pass them on to the folks doing the selling and arranging the shipping. PLEASE - Do not respond to originating address of this message. dmr David M. Razler david.razler@worldnet.att.net From kevan at heydon.org Mon Mar 29 07:36:12 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Superbrains in the UK. Message-ID: I have a lead on a couple of Superbrains available here in the UK. I am not interested but if anybody else is then I can pass on the details. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 29 07:40:53 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990329001529.48871744@intellistar.net> Message-ID: Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, and real computers don't need more than 64K... The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran out of space. There was an 8 meg rigid drive available too, but I neever filled that up either. WordStar on the 820 just grinds along, and works very satisfyingly. At least 3 word processing packages were avialable plus business graphics, multiplan, quite a few programming languages. XWP wasn't so great, apparently a primitive WordStar, WordStar was superb if cryptic, and there was another nice one, a bit glitzy and modern for my taste, but put WordPerfect to shame, but hey, even a blank screen does that. Don Maislin may remember the name, he likes that particular programme. Ran very well on 5-1/4 inch drives. There was a memory expansion available for the 16/8, but I've never seen it. The DEM-II is interesting because the card rack is very like the NEC APC-II. Incidentally, Hyperion's DOS 1.25 runs circles around the Xerox DOS 2.0. On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > Merle, > > At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: > >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest > >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing > >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well > >MS-DOS. > > Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I > got in this load. > > > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. > > I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and > CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? > > One problem is that > >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines > >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable > >machine. > > Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the > 820-II have? > > Thanks for the info. > Joe > > > > >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's > >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he > >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( > >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck > >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no > >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks > >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, > >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of > >> them? > >> > >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and > >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is > >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > >> > >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> > > > >M. K. Peirce > >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >215 Shady Lea Road, > >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From kevan at heydon.org Mon Mar 29 07:48:30 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Sage Computer info wanted. Message-ID: I have a Sage IV computer out on loan to a company that is using it on their production line. It turns out that they need to use it for longer than expected which means that they are concerned about Y2K problems with the hardware. (They need for another year possibly) I offered to ask around so if there is anybody out there with a Sage IV I would like to talk to them. They are investigating too but any data I can get would be most welcome. Thanks -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Mar 29 07:52:24 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes Message-ID: <01BE79C1.771B27F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Monday, March 29, 1999 12:17 AM, Don Maslin [SMTP:donm@cts.com] wrote: > On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > If you have to align an 8"drive, the alignment diskette is pretty essential, > > i.e. you can't really do well without it. The 5.25" diskettes are about as > > easy to manage with software and one of the "digital alignment diskettes" if > > you can get them. > > I am pretty sure that they are still available from: > > Accurite Technologues, Inc. > 231 Charcot Avenue > San Jose CA 95131-1107 > > - don Looks like the disks are still available. http://www.accurite.com/Products.html Steve Robertson - From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 29 11:25:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990329001529.48871744@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990329112505.2d3ff480@intellistar.net> At 08:40 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, I looked throgh the XEROX manuals last night. There's a separate manual for 2.2, CPM-80 and CPM 86 and MS-DOS 2. 2.2 is the oldest in this bunch. > and real computers don't need more than 64K... Yeah I know but 128K is nice to have. > >The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran >out of space. There was an 8 meg rigid drive available too, but I neever >filled that up either. WordStar on the 820 just grinds along, and works >very satisfyingly. I got new manaul and 8" disk with WS 3.3. Also D-Base II and some other stuff. > At least 3 word processing packages were avialable >plus business graphics, multiplan, quite a few programming languages. >XWP wasn't so great, apparently a primitive WordStar, WordStar was superb >if cryptic, and there was another nice one, a bit glitzy and modern for >my taste, but put WordPerfect to shame, but hey, even a blank screen does >that. Don Maislin may remember the name, he likes that particular >programme. Ran very well on 5-1/4 inch drives. > >There was a memory expansion available for the 16/8, but I've never seen it. >The DEM-II is interesting because the card rack is very like the NEC APC-II. > >Incidentally, Hyperion's DOS 1.25 runs circles around the Xerox DOS 2.0. Do you know where I can find a copy of that? Do you still have any of your XEROXs? I think I have the CPU portion of an 820-II here but no drives (or the controller/daughter board) and no keyboard. The drives and keyboard should be a problem but the controller is. Joe > >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Merle, >> >> At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: >> >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest >> >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing >> >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well >> >MS-DOS. >> >> Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I >> got in this load. >> >> > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. >> >> I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and >> CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? >> >> One problem is that >> >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines >> >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable >> >machine. >> >> Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the >> 820-II have? >> >> Thanks for the info. >> Joe >> >> > >> >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: >> > >> >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >> >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me that he >> >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year ago. :-( >> >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >> >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >> >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >> >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >> >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your opinion of >> >> them? >> >> >> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", 5.25" and >> >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >> >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? >> >> >> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> > >> >M. K. Peirce >> >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >> >215 Shady Lea Road, >> >North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> > >> >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> > >> > - Ovid >> > >> > >> >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > From jax at tvec.net Mon Mar 29 09:28:13 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: <199903290301.UAA21362@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990329092813.00811100@pop.tvec.net> At 08:01 PM 03/28/1999 -0700, you wrote: >> The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail >> program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". > >Nope, no hoax. I got a CERT advisory on this one. > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, this one's for real. Some bozo has written a spawning macro virus. I don't think that it's limited to MS Outlook products though, the macro would be executed if the *.doc attachment is opened with MS Word which automatically runs the virus. Recommend if your running a Winblows box with e-mail of any kind and MS Word to associate all files ending in "doc" with QuickView or WordPad (eliminates the macro execution). It won't be long before some other idiot takes the guts of this macro and changes it, so the "Important message from" will not be an indicator. BTW, the thing is harmless to the resident computer. So far it just generates a ton of infected e-mails. jax@tvec.net From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 09:52:01 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <199903291552.AA17722@world.std.com> Can now be found on my home_systems web page... just go to my home page, follow the link to retrocomputing, then to home systems... I've got the pictures all loaded, I just have to start doing the writeup... For a quick route to the picture... http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 29 09:55:24 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990329112505.2d3ff480@intellistar.net> Message-ID: All my Xeroxes are in the museum collection now, although I still have one set up at home. Absolutely my favourite CP/M machine, the QX-10 notwithstanding. I might be able to find dos 1.25, but it would take awile. C: is a ramdisk. Don must have it at his fingertips. We're in the middle of renovations and it's impossible to find anything. On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > At 08:40 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, > > I looked throgh the XEROX manuals last night. There's a separate manual > for 2.2, CPM-80 and CPM 86 and MS-DOS 2. 2.2 is the oldest in this bunch. > > > and real computers don't need more than 64K... > > Yeah I know but 128K is nice to have. > > > >The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran > >out of space. There was an 8 meg rigid drive available too, but I neever > >filled that up either. WordStar on the 820 just grinds along, and works > >very satisfyingly. > > I got new manaul and 8" disk with WS 3.3. Also D-Base II and some other > stuff. > > > At least 3 word processing packages were avialable > >plus business graphics, multiplan, quite a few programming languages. > >XWP wasn't so great, apparently a primitive WordStar, WordStar was superb > >if cryptic, and there was another nice one, a bit glitzy and modern for > >my taste, but put WordPerfect to shame, but hey, even a blank screen does > >that. Don Maislin may remember the name, he likes that particular > >programme. Ran very well on 5-1/4 inch drives. > > > >There was a memory expansion available for the 16/8, but I've never seen it. > >The DEM-II is interesting because the card rack is very like the NEC APC-II. > > > >Incidentally, Hyperion's DOS 1.25 runs circles around the Xerox DOS 2.0. > > Do you know where I can find a copy of that? Do you still have any of > your XEROXs? I think I have the CPU portion of an 820-II here but no > drives (or the controller/daughter board) and no keyboard. The drives and > keyboard should be a problem but the controller is. > > Joe > > > >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > >> Merle, > >> > >> At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: > >> >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest > >> >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing > >> >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well > >> >MS-DOS. > >> > >> Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I > >> got in this load. > >> > >> > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. > >> > >> I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and > >> CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? > >> > >> One problem is that > >> >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines > >> >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable > >> >machine. > >> > >> Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the > >> 820-II have? > >> > >> Thanks for the info. > >> Joe > >> > >> > > >> >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > >> > > >> >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's > >> >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me > that he > >> >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year > ago. :-( > >> >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck > >> >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no > >> >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks > >> >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, > >> >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your > opinion of > >> >> them? > >> >> > >> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", > 5.25" and > >> >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is > >> >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > >> >> > >> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > >> >> > >> >> Joe > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >M. K. Peirce > >> >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >> >215 Shady Lea Road, > >> >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >> > > >> >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > >> > > >> > - Ovid > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > >M. K. Peirce > >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >215 Shady Lea Road, > >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Mar 29 10:01:54 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul In-Reply-To: <199903291552.AA17722@world.std.com> from Megan at "Mar 29, 1999 10:52:01 am" Message-ID: <199903291601.KAA15186@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > Can now be found on my home_systems web page... just go to my > home page, follow the link to retrocomputing, then to home > systems... > > I've got the pictures all loaded, I just have to start doing the > writeup... > > For a quick route to the picture... > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > Who was the nut who mounted the CPU units near your ankles? Looks like you're suposed to lie on your belly in order to read the displays and toggle the switches! -Lawrence LeMay From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Mar 29 10:07:59 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <01BE79D4.689622D0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > For a quick route to the picture... > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer Very nice!!! Steve Robertson - From william at ans.net Mon Mar 29 10:43:03 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul In-Reply-To: <199903291601.KAA15186@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > Who was the nut who mounted the CPU units near your ankles? Looks like > you're suposed to lie on your belly in order to read the displays and > toggle the switches! Not to mention to potential for kicking (and breaking off) the switch handles. William Donzelli william@ans.net From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 10:56:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: Superbrains in the UK. Message-ID: <002601be7a05$269e8260$0100c0a8@fuj03> As single-card-single-box CP/M systems went, these were about as good as any you could get back in the lat '70's-early '80's. They were well equipped with documentation and human support. There was a users' group which supported them as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Kevan Heydon To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:41 AM Subject: Superbrains in the UK. > >I have a lead on a couple of Superbrains available here in the UK. I am >not interested but if anybody else is then I can pass on the details. > >-- >Kevan > >Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 29 13:01:47 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:25 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990329092813.00811100@pop.tvec.net> References: <199903290301.UAA21362@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990329130147.2fdf9870@intellistar.net> At 09:28 AM 3/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:01 PM 03/28/1999 -0700, you wrote: >>> The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail >>> program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". >> >>Nope, no hoax. I got a CERT advisory on this one. Yeap, I gotten a warning about it from both USAF and NASA this morning. Joe From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 11:34:56 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <199903291734.AA27982@world.std.com> >Who was the nut who mounted the CPU units near your ankles? Looks like >you're suposed to lie on your belly in order to read the displays and >toggle the switches! Well, the lowest of the machines (the pdp-8/e and pdp-8/f) were actually not even configured for operation... they were simply stuck in the racks, taking up space. The 8/f now has a home with Allison, so there is empty space in the 11/34 rack... which I will probably fill with an RL01 (or RL02 if I can find one). The pdp-8/a, which doesn't have any blinkenlights, was the actual operating machine for the person who owned it before... its backplane can handle a hex board, which was required for the RL8 controller, apparently. The 8/e is currently out of the rack as I figure out what I'm going to do next... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 11:49:16 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video Message-ID: <005e01be7a0c$793ba1e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> This appears to me to be an intermittent trace on the main board's video addressing logic I'd look in the counter chains. Careful examination of the boad may enable you to find it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 4:18 AM Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video > >Hi, > >Along with a dead 4116 (which I recently replaced with a hacked 4164), >my Microcom II+ (Apple II+ clone) has a video problem which has kept me >from using it for the past few years. > >Usually when it's cold, the display is a complete mess. As it warms up, >the image becomes clear but in four parts. Each quarter (corner) of the >screen is a mini-image of what should be displayed on the whole screen. >Out of each group of four pixels of what would be displayed normally, each >will be displayed in a different quadrant of the screen. > >After about 10 minutes, the screen becomes normal, with occasional "zaps" >and returns to the quartered screen image. > >Just about everything in the II+ is TTL, so it's probably just a matter of >knowing which piece of TTL to replace. Does anyone know? > >I'm looking at the schematics (for a _real_ Apple II) now, but I have no >idea how to locate the problem because there are several lines leading to >the video output, and the problem chip may be farther back into the >curcuitry and not connected directly to the output. > >I know that some of you are fairly expert with Apple hardware. > >I want to get the Microcom II+ working because it's the only machine I've >got that's capable of using my Z80 Softcard or my SMC-II Light Pen. >Neither will work in my Apple //e. > >Besides, it also has a better keyboard than the //e, once it's been worked >in to cure the 'bounce'. > > >(As an addition note on the machine's history: >The machine was repaired at the Microcom store in early 1987, and it came >back with a loose, drifty keyboard. I found out the reason was that the >keyboard's curcuit board had been cracked and the keyboard only works if >it's not screwed in too tightly. I'll get around to looking at that after >the video is fixed. It's just one corner that's folded a bit, but there >are traces on there! The keyboard tends to report the wrong characters >when it's screwed in properly.) > >-- >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Mar 29 11:49:50 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video In-Reply-To: <005e01be7a0c$793ba1e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Mar 29, 1999 10:49:16 am" Message-ID: <199903291749.RAA06544@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Or buy a can of cold spray, and after its warmed up and working, start spraying components until you find the area that causes it to go bonkers. -Lawrence LeMay > This appears to me to be an intermittent trace on the main board's video > addressing logic I'd look in the counter chains. Careful examination of the > boad may enable you to find it. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Spence > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 4:18 AM > Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video > > > > > >Hi, > > > >Along with a dead 4116 (which I recently replaced with a hacked 4164), > >my Microcom II+ (Apple II+ clone) has a video problem which has kept me > >from using it for the past few years. > > > >Usually when it's cold, the display is a complete mess. As it warms up, > >the image becomes clear but in four parts. Each quarter (corner) of the > >screen is a mini-image of what should be displayed on the whole screen. > >Out of each group of four pixels of what would be displayed normally, each > >will be displayed in a different quadrant of the screen. > > > >After about 10 minutes, the screen becomes normal, with occasional "zaps" > >and returns to the quartered screen image. > > > >Just about everything in the II+ is TTL, so it's probably just a matter of > >knowing which piece of TTL to replace. Does anyone know? > > > >I'm looking at the schematics (for a _real_ Apple II) now, but I have no > >idea how to locate the problem because there are several lines leading to > >the video output, and the problem chip may be farther back into the > >curcuitry and not connected directly to the output. > > > >I know that some of you are fairly expert with Apple hardware. > > > >I want to get the Microcom II+ working because it's the only machine I've > >got that's capable of using my Z80 Softcard or my SMC-II Light Pen. > >Neither will work in my Apple //e. > > > >Besides, it also has a better keyboard than the //e, once it's been worked > >in to cure the 'bounce'. > > > > > >(As an addition note on the machine's history: > >The machine was repaired at the Microcom store in early 1987, and it came > >back with a loose, drifty keyboard. I found out the reason was that the > >keyboard's curcuit board had been cracked and the keyboard only works if > >it's not screwed in too tightly. I'll get around to looking at that after > >the video is fixed. It's just one corner that's folded a bit, but there > >are traces on there! The keyboard tends to report the wrong characters > >when it's screwed in properly.) > > > >-- > >Doug Spence > >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > > From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Mar 29 11:43:49 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <045501be7a0b$b839b090$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> The Diablo drives look like model 31's. I should still have the docs on them if you need to make a copy. Dan From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 11:57:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: 4116's and other memory Message-ID: <000801be7a0d$a90393a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> In the event any of those reading this list are in truly desperate need of 4116's to resuscitate you elderly computers, please let me know. I have a supply of these which though limited is excessive. They're yours for the postage, provided you have an otherwise running system in which to use them. There should be no need for disfuguring an original board in order to make a part foreign to its design work in place of what belongs there. I also, incidentally, have some of the 18 (?) -pin dual DRAMs made for the Apple-III's memory board, and, in fact, have a spare apple-iii memory daughterboard which is serving no useful purpose here. If you've got an apple-III with memory problems, perhaps this is for you. If you have other "old" memory needs, e.g. 2115's (Intel 1kx1's, 25 ns) or maybe something equally out of date, let me know where you would use them and maybe I can help you out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Picture of my latest haul > >>Who was the nut who mounted the CPU units near your ankles? Looks like >>you're suposed to lie on your belly in order to read the displays and >>toggle the switches! > >Well, the lowest of the machines (the pdp-8/e and pdp-8/f) were >actually not even configured for operation... they were simply >stuck in the racks, taking up space. The 8/f now has a home with >Allison, so there is empty space in the 11/34 rack... which I will >probably fill with an RL01 (or RL02 if I can find one). > >The pdp-8/a, which doesn't have any blinkenlights, was the actual >operating machine for the person who owned it before... its >backplane can handle a hex board, which was required for the RL8 >controller, apparently. > >The 8/e is currently out of the rack as I figure out what I'm going >to do next... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 12:04:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <000801be7a0e$87354a60$0100c0a8@fuj03> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 8:26 AM Subject: Re: followup: Rinky dink hamfest >At 08:40 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, > > I looked throgh the XEROX manuals last night. There's a separate manual >for 2.2, CPM-80 and CPM 86 and MS-DOS 2. 2.2 is the oldest in this bunch. > >> and real computers don't need more than 64K... > > Yeah I know but 128K is nice to have. >> >>The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran >>out of space. There was an 8 meg rigid drive available too, but I neever >>filled that up either. WordStar on the 820 just grinds along, and works >>very satisfyingly. > > I got new manaul and 8" disk with WS 3.3. Also D-Base II and some other >stuff. > >> At least 3 word processing packages were avialable >>plus business graphics, multiplan, quite a few programming languages. >>XWP wasn't so great, apparently a primitive WordStar, WordStar was superb >>if cryptic, and there was another nice one, a bit glitzy and modern for >>my taste, but put WordPerfect to shame, but hey, even a blank screen does >>that. Don Maislin may remember the name, he likes that particular >>programme. Ran very well on 5-1/4 inch drives. >> >>There was a memory expansion available for the 16/8, but I've never seen it. >>The DEM-II is interesting because the card rack is very like the NEC APC-II. >> >>Incidentally, Hyperion's DOS 1.25 runs circles around the Xerox DOS 2.0. > > Do you know where I can find a copy of that? Do you still have any of >your XEROXs? I think I have the CPU portion of an 820-II here but no >drives (or the controller/daughter board) and no keyboard. The drives and >keyboard should be a problem but the controller is. > > Joe >> >>On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: >> >>> Merle, >>> >>> At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: >>> >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest >>> >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing >>> >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well >>> >MS-DOS. >>> >>> Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I >>> got in this load. >>> >>> > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. >>> >>> I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and >>> CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? >>> >>> One problem is that >>> >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines >>> >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable >>> >machine. >>> >>> Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the >>> 820-II have? >>> >>> Thanks for the info. >>> Joe >>> >>> > >>> >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: >>> > >>> >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's >>> >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me >that he >>> >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year >ago. :-( >>> >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck >>> >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no >>> >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks >>> >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, >>> >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your >opinion of >>> >> them? >>> >> >>> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", >5.25" and >>> >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is >>> >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? >>> >> >>> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. >>> >> >>> >> Joe >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> >M. K. Peirce >>> >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >>> >215 Shady Lea Road, >>> >North Kingstown, RI 02852 >>> > >>> >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >>> > >>> > - Ovid >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >>M. K. Peirce >>Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >>215 Shady Lea Road, >>North Kingstown, RI 02852 >> >>"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." >> >> - Ovid >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 12:28:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <000d01be7a11$e47295e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I don't know why I posted the previous empty reply . . . it's hell getting old . . . I would mention that I had 128K in each of my Systems Group systems and never used it under CP/M. MP/M had a mechanism for cashing in on extra memory, but it was awkward at best under CP/M 2.2. Needless to say, the use of a RAMdisk would speed things up, but unless there was an extensive amount of software for managing it, and that took up too much TPA, even a RAMdisk didn't help much. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 11:07 AM Subject: Re: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 8:26 AM >Subject: Re: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > > >>At 08:40 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >>>Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, >> >> I looked throgh the XEROX manuals last night. There's a separate manual >>for 2.2, CPM-80 and CPM 86 and MS-DOS 2. 2.2 is the oldest in this bunch. >> >>> and real computers don't need more than 64K... >> >> Yeah I know but 128K is nice to have. >>> >>>The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 29 12:29:54 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Decwriter II References: <003601be79c7$5fabcce0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <36FFC6A2.606E4D9A@rain.org> Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Anyone know where I'd find a circuit diagram for a Decwriter II? > Preferably in South Australia. > I have one that thinks it's permanantly out of paper. > (No, it doesn't seem to be a microswitch) > I suspect it's just a stuck logic state in a 74xx ttl chip, but a circuit > will make it a lot easier to find..... > > Alternatively, if this is a common fault, anyone know which chip is > implicated? It looks like the Paper Out signal goes into J3-6 of the keyboard assy. and goes into the main logic board on J2-AA/BB; the main board test point is TPZ17. It looks to be lo true judging by the pullup resistors. From there, it goes into E37 pin 12 (7474) and comes out on pin 9 as MPC8 Ready H. The test point is TPV20. I might add that the logic board I am looking at is the M7728. I can scan in that portion of the schematic if you need it. From william at ans.net Mon Mar 29 12:43:40 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Floor tiles Message-ID: Here is a dumb question... Are European floor tiles for computer rooms 2 feet square, like those found in the U.S., or are they smaller? I am trying to find out how big the ETA-10P Pipers are, and I have picture that has a floor tile as a reference. The image, http://www.tno.nl/instit/fel/museum/computer/eta10p.jpg, is rather funny looking, as the people make the box look small. William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 29 12:47:59 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > All my Xeroxes are in the museum collection now, although I still have > one set up at home. Absolutely my favourite CP/M machine, the QX-10 > notwithstanding. I might be able to find dos 1.25, but it would take > awile. C: is a ramdisk. Don must have it at his fingertips. We're in No, regrettably, I do not have anything for it but 2.0. I do have some earlier versions of DOS for PCs, but do not know whether they would function on the 16/8. - don > the middle of renovations and it's impossible to find anything. > > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > At 08:40 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, > > > > I looked throgh the XEROX manuals last night. There's a separate manual > > for 2.2, CPM-80 and CPM 86 and MS-DOS 2. 2.2 is the oldest in this bunch. > > > > > and real computers don't need more than 64K... > > > > Yeah I know but 128K is nice to have. > > > > > >The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran > > >out of space. There was an 8 meg rigid drive available too, but I neever > > >filled that up either. WordStar on the 820 just grinds along, and works > > >very satisfyingly. > > > > I got new manaul and 8" disk with WS 3.3. Also D-Base II and some other > > stuff. > > > > > At least 3 word processing packages were avialable > > >plus business graphics, multiplan, quite a few programming languages. > > >XWP wasn't so great, apparently a primitive WordStar, WordStar was superb > > >if cryptic, and there was another nice one, a bit glitzy and modern for > > >my taste, but put WordPerfect to shame, but hey, even a blank screen does > > >that. Don Maislin may remember the name, he likes that particular > > >programme. Ran very well on 5-1/4 inch drives. > > > > > >There was a memory expansion available for the 16/8, but I've never seen it. > > >The DEM-II is interesting because the card rack is very like the NEC APC-II. > > > > > >Incidentally, Hyperion's DOS 1.25 runs circles around the Xerox DOS 2.0. > > > > Do you know where I can find a copy of that? Do you still have any of > > your XEROXs? I think I have the CPU portion of an 820-II here but no > > drives (or the controller/daughter board) and no keyboard. The drives and > > keyboard should be a problem but the controller is. > > > > Joe > > > > > >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > > > >> Merle, > > >> > > >> At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: > > >> >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest > > >> >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing > > >> >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well > > >> >MS-DOS. > > >> > > >> Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I > > >> got in this load. > > >> > > >> > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. > > >> > > >> I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and > > >> CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? > > >> > > >> One problem is that > > >> >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines > > >> >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable > > >> >machine. > > >> > > >> Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the > > >> 820-II have? > > >> > > >> Thanks for the info. > > >> Joe > > >> > > >> > > > >> >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's > > >> >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me > > that he > > >> >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year > > ago. :-( > > >> >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck > > >> >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no > > >> >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks > > >> >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, > > >> >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your > > opinion of > > >> >> them? > > >> >> > > >> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", > > 5.25" and > > >> >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is > > >> >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > > >> >> > > >> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > > >> >> > > >> >> Joe > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> >M. K. Peirce > > >> >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > >> >215 Shady Lea Road, > > >> >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > >> > > > >> >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > >> > > > >> > - Ovid > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >M. K. Peirce > > >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > >215 Shady Lea Road, > > >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Mar 29 14:22:58 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <002101be7a21$f0294ae0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Ok Megan, I'm officially Jealous..... Nice Gear! (Especially the RK05 drives I've been looking for)... Congrats! Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: RE: Picture of my latest haul > >> >> For a quick route to the picture... >> >> http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer > > >Very nice!!! > >Steve Robertson - > > From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Mar 29 14:52:28 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Salvage yard sightings In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990329001529.48871744@intellistar.net> Message-ID: I didn't think much about it at the time, but I saw some monster disk drives the other day. Likely 8" platter stacks, and what looked like short soda can sized motors (2) sticking out one end (voice coil drivers I assume). I think about 6 of them were sitting on a shelf, fresh pulls etc. If anyone is curious I will attempt to find a part number or brand next time. Same place is getting in truck loads of ex- Levis Strauss computers, older macs, lots of PS/2 machines, various old stock tidbits, ie a power supply for a L40 portable? Would a 486 PS/2 make a decent Linux machine? Any suggestions on a specific model? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 11:41:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990329000755.4767ae28@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 29, 99 00:07:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 676 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/ec377ac5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 11:42:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes In-Reply-To: <003001be7988$ff254ba0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 28, 99 07:08:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/68a9cb37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 11:46:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: The move is accomplished! In-Reply-To: <199903290226.AA03566@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 28, 99 09:26:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/2485fa44/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 11:47:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 28, 99 06:52:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 255 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/64500681/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 12:01:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <002b01be799a$90d8bbc0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 28, 99 09:13:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/7ded1692/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 12:30:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Decwriter II In-Reply-To: <003601be79c7$5fabcce0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Mar 29, 99 07:04:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/a7a3f91c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 12:07:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 29, 99 00:56:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/96e1f72f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 12:13:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903290727.XAA13718@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Mar 28, 99 11:27:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/0dbf6c5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 13:47:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Messed up Apple (clone) video In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Mar 29, 99 06:11:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/167a743a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 13:57:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Sage Computer info wanted. In-Reply-To: from "Kevan Heydon" at Mar 29, 99 05:48:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1517 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990329/648ab82c/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 29 15:20:39 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I find things, I'll try to remember to make a copy of 1.25 for you. As I recall, Xerox DOS is a little strange, but it may be the boot blcoks. On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > > All my Xeroxes are in the museum collection now, although I still have > > one set up at home. Absolutely my favourite CP/M machine, the QX-10 > > notwithstanding. I might be able to find dos 1.25, but it would take > > awile. C: is a ramdisk. Don must have it at his fingertips. We're in > > No, regrettably, I do not have anything for it but 2.0. I do have some > earlier versions of DOS for PCs, but do not know whether they would > function on the 16/8. > - don > > > the middle of renovations and it's impossible to find anything. > > > > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > > > At 08:40 AM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Joe, CP/M-80 is 2.2, > > > > > > I looked throgh the XEROX manuals last night. There's a separate manual > > > for 2.2, CPM-80 and CPM 86 and MS-DOS 2. 2.2 is the oldest in this bunch. > > > > > > > and real computers don't need more than 64K... > > > > > > Yeah I know but 128K is nice to have. > > > > > > > >The 820, at least the later ones, used big 984K discs. I hardly ever ran > > > >out of space. There was an 8 meg rigid drive available too, but I neever > > > >filled that up either. WordStar on the 820 just grinds along, and works > > > >very satisfyingly. > > > > > > I got new manaul and 8" disk with WS 3.3. Also D-Base II and some other > > > stuff. > > > > > > > At least 3 word processing packages were avialable > > > >plus business graphics, multiplan, quite a few programming languages. > > > >XWP wasn't so great, apparently a primitive WordStar, WordStar was superb > > > >if cryptic, and there was another nice one, a bit glitzy and modern for > > > >my taste, but put WordPerfect to shame, but hey, even a blank screen does > > > >that. Don Maislin may remember the name, he likes that particular > > > >programme. Ran very well on 5-1/4 inch drives. > > > > > > > >There was a memory expansion available for the 16/8, but I've never seen it. > > > >The DEM-II is interesting because the card rack is very like the NEC APC-II. > > > > > > > >Incidentally, Hyperion's DOS 1.25 runs circles around the Xerox DOS 2.0. > > > > > > Do you know where I can find a copy of that? Do you still have any of > > > your XEROXs? I think I have the CPU portion of an 820-II here but no > > > drives (or the controller/daughter board) and no keyboard. The drives and > > > keyboard should be a problem but the controller is. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > >> Merle, > > > >> > > > >> At 10:24 PM 3/28/99 -0500, Merle wrote: > > > >> >The 16/8 is an interesting machine. It came in 2 versions, the earliest > > > >> >with 8" Shugart drives, a later with a DEM-II expansion case housing > > > >> >5-1/4 inch drives. The CP/M-86 is not bad, but the MS-DOS is...well > > > >> >MS-DOS. > > > >> > > > >> Not surprising considering it's only ver 2.0 . At least that's what I > > > >> got in this load. > > > >> > > > >> > Incredibly primitive compared to CP/M 2.2. > > > >> > > > >> I don't know that much about CPM but this machine only has CPM-80 and > > > >> CPM-86. How do they compare to CP/M 2.2? > > > >> > > > >> One problem is that > > > >> >many were shipped with 128K memory. With the dinky drives, the machines > > > >> >are disappointing. The old 8" 820-II is a far better and more usable > > > >> >machine. > > > >> > > > >> Better than the 16/8? I thought it was newer. How much memory did the > > > >> 820-II have? > > > >> > > > >> Thanks for the info. > > > >> Joe > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> >On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Joe wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> Today I went to see a couple of the people that I meet at yesterday's > > > >> >> hamfest. One of them used to service XEROX computers. He told me > > > that he > > > >> >> threw out three rooms full of old XEROX computers less than a year > > > ago. :-( > > > >> >> He gave me part of the stuff that he had left, I have to take a Truck > > > >> >> (note capital) back to get the rest (estimated at two cubic yards but no > > > >> >> complete machines). So far I've found lots of docs and 8" flopppy disks > > > >> >> for the 820 and 16/8. The 16/8 looks pretty interesting, it ran CPM, > > > >> >> CPM-86 and MS-DOS. Does anyone have one of these? What's your > > > opinion of > > > >> >> them? > > > >> >> > > > >> >> He has a floppy disk drive control box to manual operate 3.5", > > > 5.25" and > > > >> >> 8" drives during alignment. Anyone have an idea of what one of these is > > > >> >> worth with the alignment disks and manuals? > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Alos found a Lisa mouse to go with the Lisa that I got yesterday. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Joe > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> >M. K. Peirce > > > >> >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > >> >215 Shady Lea Road, > > > >> >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > >> > > > > >> >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > >> > > > > >> > - Ovid > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >M. K. Peirce > > > >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > >215 Shady Lea Road, > > > >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > donm@cts.com > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Mar 29 15:26:01 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul In-Reply-To: <199903291552.AA17722@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329152601.009c7100@texas.net> Pretty! I'm jealous! >Can now be found on my home_systems web page... just go to my >home page, follow the link to retrocomputing, then to home >systems... > >I've got the pictures all loaded, I just have to start doing the >writeup... > >For a quick route to the picture... > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Mon Mar 29 15:36:31 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B030138E2@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Pretty snazzy looking stuff! If you get bored with the TU-56, I'd love to take it off your hands!! :-) -- Tony >> For a quick route to the picture... >> >> http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 29 17:52:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: 4116's and other memory In-Reply-To: <000801be7a0d$a90393a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990329175212.3037a4c2@intellistar.net> Dick, I have a machine that uses 2116s. What are they? Fortunately I don't need any at the moment but let me know if you have any so I'll know where I can get them if I have to. Joe At 10:57 AM 3/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >If you have other "old" memory needs, e.g. 2115's (Intel 1kx1's, 25 ns) or >maybe something equally out of date, let me know where you would use them >and maybe I can help you out. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Megan >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 10:43 AM >Subject: Re: Picture of my latest haul > > >> >>>Who was the nut who mounted the CPU units near your ankles? Looks like >>>you're suposed to lie on your belly in order to read the displays and >>>toggle the switches! >> >>Well, the lowest of the machines (the pdp-8/e and pdp-8/f) were >>actually not even configured for operation... they were simply >>stuck in the racks, taking up space. The 8/f now has a home with >>Allison, so there is empty space in the 11/34 rack... which I will >>probably fill with an RL01 (or RL02 if I can find one). >> >>The pdp-8/a, which doesn't have any blinkenlights, was the actual >>operating machine for the person who owned it before... its >>backplane can handle a hex board, which was required for the RL8 >>controller, apparently. >> >>The 8/e is currently out of the rack as I figure out what I'm going >>to do next... >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer >> >>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >>| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >>| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >>| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >>| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >>| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >>| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >> > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 15:53:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <002201be7a2e$ae6520e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Thanks for posting this information. It might be useful, in addition, at least to me, to have to correspondence with the S-100 bus pins so they can be cross-referenced to the '696 standard signal names. I do hve the 8080 data in house, but nothing tying it to the S-100 bus pinout or timing. Actually, it might be as correct to say that 8088 signal names are more or less like "all the other" microcomputers in the non-Motorola camp. with the 8085 and z-80, it became obvious that the large number of strange signals generated by the 8080 didn't even help the Intel folks with the task of interfacing the processor to memory and peripheral devices. The simple interface used by the 8085 and Z-80, which had to be painstakingly created from an 8080, lives on, in the ISA and other bus architectures. What it's come down to over the last 20 years is that you need a pair of signals, i.e. nRD and nWR to tell you (1) that something's going on, and (2) whether it's a transfer of data to or from the processor. Additionally, it's nice to know whether the read or write is between the processor and memory or I/O. With the MOT class of processor, you have an address strobe to tell you a cycle's begun, and you have to decode the address to determine whether it's I/O space or memory that's the target. In either case, you need only one level of logic to create the necessary strobes, and none of it is clocked logic, so no nonessential time loss is generated. One of the reasons the S-100 required such fast memory for its relatively slow processors was that you had to operate relatively complex timing structures to create proper timing. That's a reason the standard, in my considered opinion, killed the S-100 rather than perpetuating it. Intel figured this stuff out a decade earlier with its Multibus-I. That used a very ISA-like set of bus handshakes. Because the '696 standards committee couldn't take the hint from the rest of the world and simply pick WHICH write signal to use and WHICH read signal to use and that they couldn't figure out that the system didn't need to have data valid at the beginning of a write cycle, but only a short while before the end, and that data had to be held for a time after the end of a cycle, simply was a dreadful shame. That's what happens when folks meet with no intention of compromising. The result of course, was the chaos that results when surplus vendors e.g. CompuPro/Godbout (cited here because they were BIG, not because they were BAD) design their boards considering only what's out in the dozen 55-gal drums full of TTL parts in the warehouse as opposed to how the functions can be implemented BEST. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> >> GAWD! The 8080 data sheet! I wonder if my archives go back that far . . . > > >I know I still have the 8080 data sheet (actually a NatSemi version of >it). I found it the other day when looking for the SC/MP data (which I >also found...) > >> Soooo . . . the signals were named the same also, eh? pSYNC, /pWR, sMEMR, >> etc??? > >I have the Imsai 8080 CPU board schematics here. > >Here are the signals (modulo buffering/inverting): > >reset/ -> 8224 clock generator reset >Prdy, Xrdy logically ORed and fed to 8224 rdyin >PINT/ -> 8080 INT >HOLD/ latched by D-type (clocked from phi2), -> 8080 Hold >POC <- 8224 reset output >Phi1 <- levelshifted 8224 phi1 output >SSW DIS/ -> logic -> data buffer enable pins >Phi2 <- 8224 phi2ttl output >Cloc <- gate-delayed version of phi2 >Data, address lines <- 8080 >Pwait, Pwr/, Pdbin, Pinte, Phlda, Psync <- 8080 >CCDSBL -> enable line on buffers for last list of signals. >Addr disbl/ ditto for address buffers >DO Disbl/ ditto for data out buffers >RUN, SS -> logic -> data buffer control >SINTA, SWO, SSTACK, SHLTA, SOUT, SM1, SINP, SMEMR <- 8212 latch on CPU >data lines, clocked by STSTB from 8224. >STAT DISBL -> enable of buffers for those lines. > >That#'s basically it. The S100 bus is very similar to the raw 8080 lines >(like 8-bit ISA is pretty much 8088 signals). > >-tony > From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 29 16:01:34 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > What's the difference between the 100 and the 102? Any other models? > > The M102 is thinner, and uses standard 8K*8 RAM chips rather than the > 4-chip hybrids used in the M100. Probably electronic differences as well, > but I have neither the M102 or its tech manual. The biggest difference from a user's point of view was that the 102 expansion bus was a header connector, easier to connect than the big DIP socket under the 100 -- a real advantage with the Disk/Video interface. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 29 16:12:51 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > What you have then is equivalent to an upgraded Model III, since the > > Model 4 upgrade was essentially a mobo replacement, all other pieces > > were the same between the two machines. (Well, floppy vendors > > Not quite. The keyboard is different (the model 4 one has extra keys on > it). Although you can use the wrong keyboard with either machine - the > extra keys are in unused positions on the 8*8 matrix on the Model 3 and the > keyboard cable pinout is the same. You're right, I forgot the Mod III didn't have those (years since I've actually looked at a III in fact). > The Model 4 _disk machines_ had a sound board as standard. No idea why > this was a separate board - all it consisted of was a 7474 D-type (half > used) + a transistor driver + a minispeaker. As there was an unused half > of a 7474 on the CPU board right next to the sound connector. It would > probably have been cheaper to put the few extra components on the CPU > board. Go figure. Don't recall ever noticing the sound board. I wasn't all that hardware hacking oriented in those years. > > changed back and forth a couple of times). Though some Mod 4s with > > green tubes got through the system, I'm told (I never saw one). > > Do you mean that? I thought all Model 4's had green CRTs. Mine certainly > does (early S/N non-gate array board) Total mind-fart on that one. That's what I get for composing messages at the end of a sleepless weekend. It's the white screen desktop 4s that were rare, the 4p started out with white then went green. I did know one guy who dropped his 4p and broke the tube, went with a third-party amber replacement. > Model 3's have white CRTs as standard, although there were aftermarket > replacements with green or amber screens. Advertised in every epidode of 80-Micro. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Mon Mar 29 16:18:12 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail > > program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}". > > Don't worry, I won't. In fact I won't use (modern) Microsoft > for any purpose ;-) Yup. ROMs and ROM images from back when BillG was actually coding are mostly OK (the Mod 100 is supposedly the last time he actually wrote code), and such things as extensions to the ROM to let it access disk. But as soon as I finish converting some spreadsheets to StarOffice, Excell goes and at that point I'll probably fiddling with Wine. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 29 16:57:18 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 29, 99 07:13:07 pm Message-ID: <199903292257.OAA16490@saul7.u.washington.edu> > > (Neither was fantastically informative, unfortunately... I was hoping for > > info about machine language or a complete table of characters and key codes. > > There was a table in both manuals, but I'm not sure if I would trust it. > > Any particular reason why you don't trust it? I've not found any errors > in that table... Well, maybe "don't trust" is the wrong phrase. I was hoping for information about key combinations that don't map to ASCII characters (i.e., Ctrl+Shift combinations, function keys), or extra graphics characters (yes, there are visible glyphs in the control-character slots I think, but they are so miscellaneous as to make the IBM character set look well-organized). Basically, I suppose I was hoping for more details. > The tech manual is pretty good on the hardware side (full schematics, > theory of operation, etc), but a bit lacking on the software side. It > gives a number of useful entry points, but of course there are many more > that _aren't_ there... Well, yes, exactly. See above. -- Derek From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 29 16:59:23 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul In-Reply-To: <002101be7a21$f0294ae0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: > http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_step00.jpg For one thing, I want to ask what a few of these items are. For one thing, what are the three identical units on the rightmost rack? Also, what is the tall unit right above the green PDP in the middle rack? Also, what is the top unit in the short blue rack? Next question: Is there anything you can do with these that my DECMate can't do (besides peripherals that the DECMate doesn't have) Last question: What did you use to make this picture? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 29 17:02:40 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Drive alignment tool, diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >Hmmm... Are new 5.25" drives still being made? They're not that common in I don't know about being made, but they are still in stock. You've probably seen those 5.25" and 3.5" drives in a single half height unit (of course, both work half as poorly as they would if they were full sized). I'm pretty sure that normal half-height drives are available as well. Either way, there are so many 5.25" drives out there, I think that we could use the standard 'if you fill a train up with these, it could go around the earth n times' phrase... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 17:46:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: 4116's and other memory Message-ID: <003401be7a3e$729ceb00$0100c0a8@fuj03> If they're Intel parts, I think they're a variation of the 2117, which is an Intel version of the 4116. It may, however, be the other way around, i.e. the 2117 may be the variant. Back in those days, Mostek was the leader in DRAM technology and the 41xx number is essentially theirs, though other manufacturers used it as well. The National numbers differed from this practice. Their equivalent was the MM5290. I'll have to go back and verify all this, but I do believe that they can safely be replaced with 4116's or their equivalent. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Re: 4116's and other memory >Dick, > > I have a machine that uses 2116s. What are they? Fortunately I don't >need any at the moment but let me know if you have any so I'll know where >I can get them if I have to. > > Joe > >At 10:57 AM 3/29/99 -0700, you wrote: > >>If you have other "old" memory needs, e.g. 2115's (Intel 1kx1's, 25 ns) or >>maybe something equally out of date, let me know where you would use them >>and maybe I can help you out. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Megan >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 10:43 AM >>Subject: Re: Picture of my latest haul >> >> >>> >>>>Who was the nut who mounted the CPU units near your ankles? Looks like >>>>you're suposed to lie on your belly in order to read the displays and >>>>toggle the switches! >>> >>>Well, the lowest of the machines (the pdp-8/e and pdp-8/f) were >>>actually not even configured for operation... they were simply >>>stuck in the racks, taking up space. The 8/f now has a home with >>>Allison, so there is empty space in the 11/34 rack... which I will >>>probably fill with an RL01 (or RL02 if I can find one). >>> >>>The pdp-8/a, which doesn't have any blinkenlights, was the actual >>>operating machine for the person who owned it before... its >>>backplane can handle a hex board, which was required for the RL8 >>>controller, apparently. >>> >>>The 8/e is currently out of the rack as I figure out what I'm going >>>to do next... >>> >>> Megan Gentry >>> Former RT-11 Developer >>> >>>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >>>| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >>>| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >>>| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >>>| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >>>| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >>>| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >>>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >>> >> >> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 29 17:50:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ward Griffiths proclaimed >to let it access disk. But as soon as I finish converting some >spreadsheets to StarOffice, Excell goes and at that point I'll >probably fiddling with Wine. Check out http://www.vmware.com instead. It's one of the coolist bits of software I've seen on the PC. Just what Linux needs to run Microsoft apps. Finally a way that your system doesn't get taken down when Windows crashes! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 29 17:52:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Floor tiles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Here is a dumb question... > >Are European floor tiles for computer rooms 2 feet square, like those >found in the U.S., or are they smaller? > >I am trying to find out how big the ETA-10P Pipers are, and I have picture >that has a floor tile as a reference. The image, >http://www.tno.nl/instit/fel/museum/computer/eta10p.jpg, >is rather funny looking, as the people make the box look small. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net I don't think that is a floor tile. If you'll know the floor is carpeted, and the tile is mirrored. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 29 17:55:28 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Salvage yard sightings In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990329001529.48871744@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >Would a 486 PS/2 make a decent Linux machine? Any suggestions on a specific >model? I'd recommend against it. While a 486 makes a good Linux box, I'm not sure how well Linux supports PS/2 hardware. It used to be it didn't support MCA at all, but I think it does now. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Mar 29 18:06:34 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Salvage yard sightings In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Mar 29, 1999 3:55:28 pm" Message-ID: <199903300006.TAA05515@pechter.dyndns.org> > >Would a 486 PS/2 make a decent Linux machine? Any suggestions on a specific > >model? > > I'd recommend against it. While a 486 makes a good Linux box, I'm not sure > how well Linux supports PS/2 hardware. It used to be it didn't support MCA > at all, but I think it does now. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | Actually an 8590 made a pretty good Linux box. I ran one at IBM back about two years ago. Back then you needed to pull special patches together, but Microchannel is in the standard distribution now. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 18:22:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199903300022.AA01139@world.std.com> <>The problem in a nutshell, don't open any messages in a Microsoft E-Mail <>program with the following title "Important Message From: {persons name}" < from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 29, 99 02:53:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/5a05287e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 18:07:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:26 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 29, 99 05:01:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/997de319/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 29 18:12:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Mar 29, 99 05:12:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/f776d0da/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Mon Mar 29 18:26:49 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Salvage yard sightings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I'd recommend against it. While a 486 makes a good Linux box, I'm not sure >how well Linux supports PS/2 hardware. It used to be it didn't support MCA >at all, but I think it does now. It's supposed to support all PS/2 hardware, but I couldn't boot a Model/70 with a Slackware 3.4 boot disk. It couldn't find the hard drive. Maybe the 2.2 kernel does, but I'm not inclined to try it. I'd much rather play around with Mk-Linux which runs on a Macintosh, which is much better designed than a PS/2. Of course, I'm running it on a standard AT clone :) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 18:57:42 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199903300057.AA00874@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 29, 99 07:57:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/9ee33b48/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Mar 29 19:20:12 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: 4116's and other memory In-Reply-To: <000801be7a0d$a90393a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Mar 29, 1999 10:57:49 am" Message-ID: <199903300120.BAA07128@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > If you have other "old" memory needs, e.g. 2115's (Intel 1kx1's, 25 ns) or > maybe something equally out of date, let me know where you would use them > and maybe I can help you out. > > Dick > How about C2109-4 and P2114's? -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 19:40:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <001101be7a4e$454f1140$0100c0a8@fuj03> please see comments imbedded below. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI > >The 8085 had different control signals, didn't require 3 voltages, a clock >chip, a bus control chip, was faster and allowed better memory timing. Yes, but, moreover, it had two signals to tell you when to read and when to write, and it had two signals telling you whether your target was memory or I/O. The fact that it had those essentially useless (for this environment) multi-level interrupts internally, or that it had the bizzarre (for the time) serial I/O on chip, was relatively uninteresting in light of the benefits of fewer power supplies, faster operation, internal clock generation, less critical timing, and lower parts count. > >Follow them back to the 8080. it should answer themselves. Also the 8080 >muxed status on the data bus at the early part of the cycle so the control >signals reflect the raw 8080 status and control for the most part. Unfortunately, all my 8080's appear on Multibus-I cards. I've NEVER owned an S-100 8080 CPU. In fact, it wasn't until there were some single-board computer boards on the S-100, e.g. SD Sales' SBC-100 that I even considered using S-100 for anything. >That's why board with 8085 and Z80 had all sorts of screwy logic to take >their mostly decoded controls and encode them. I certainly agree on that one! Half the logic on most of my later CPU cards was dedicted to making the processor create the 8080-compatible signals required for the bus. It takes less logic to implement a floppy controller, two serial ports, a parallel port or two, and a full compliment of DRAM on an S-100 board than it takes to make the a Z-80 or 8085 appear to the bus to be an 8080. >Allison > From bmahoney at sprint.ca Mon Mar 29 21:34:50 1999 From: bmahoney at sprint.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Floor tiles References: Message-ID: <3700465A.B2950FAA@sprint.ca> Try this: Open the photo in Photoshop or similar. Place cursor at one side of either watch in the photo, mark pixels, then move the cursor to the opposite side of watch, trying to keep it straight, and mark the pixels again. Measure the average watch and extrapolate from there. Obviously you would then measure the Piper the same way. Try the guy's belt that is in plain view also. The belt would be a fairly consistent thing to measure also, although it looks like a wider than normal one. Brian Mahoney -- http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/antique_computers http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 29 19:54:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Decwriter II In-Reply-To: <36FFC6A2.606E4D9A@rain.org> References: <003601be79c7$5fabcce0$de2c67cb@wotan.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: Just how much does one of these (*#^@&* things weigh? I had to move mine today to get a monitor box for a 21" monitor that was sitting behind it. After moving the DECwriter the monitor which was about 80 pounds seemed downright lite! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 29 19:57:19 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul In-Reply-To: References: <002101be7a21$f0294ae0$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: >Next question: Is there anything you can do with these that my DECMate >can't do (besides peripherals that the DECMate doesn't have) A PDP-8/* with a front panel is a thing of beauty as well as a pretty cool computer. I'm not sure what a basic DECmate looks like, but the DECmate 2 & 3 definitly aren't a thing of beauty! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 29 19:53:22 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903281718.JAA15709@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <000501be7a50$17e1d100$74701fd1@5x86jk> I would love to get a model 102 and any technical doc's you can get. Let me know how help you need to buy this lot. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Derek Peschel > Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 11:19 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? > > > Periodically I swing by Surplus Property here. It's very disappointing; > there hasn't been anything exciting in a few years. Also, the University > gets first dibs at surplussed things; whatever survives is > auctioned off in > big lots. So whatever interesting things ARE there tend to > either disappear > again or be sold with a pallet of uninteresting things. > > Having said that, I did see a good amount of Model 100s and their > accessories (disk drives, manuals) and a couple of other Tandy things > (cassette recorders). Is any of this especially rare? Some > machines might > be model 102s, since I saw the 102 tecnical manual. It would be a fair > amount of effort to get everything; I might be able to convince > the surplus > people to make the Tandy stuff their own lot, but I'm not optimistic about > that. > > -- Derek > From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Mar 29 19:56:15 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Decwriter II Message-ID: <005301be7a50$8010a760$f17d38cb@netcafe> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 30 March 1999 4:00 Subject: Re: Decwriter II >It looks like the Paper Out signal goes into J3-6 of the keyboard assy. and >goes into the main logic board on J2-AA/BB; the main board test point is >TPZ17. It looks to be lo true judging by the pullup resistors. Looks right, IIRC, the microswitch is tied to ground. >it goes into E37 pin 12 (7474) and comes out on pin 9 as MPC8 Ready H. Ok, that's what I needed to know, I'll have a play in that area, I think we have a stuck output here. >test point is TPV20. I might add that the logic board I am looking at is the >M7728. I can scan in that portion of the schematic if you need it. Ok, thanks, that would be great. I'll don't recall offhand the main board id, I'll have a look later today. Kindest Regards Geoff Roberts From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Mar 29 20:15:05 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: References: <199903290727.XAA13718@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990329211505.0093cd80@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Mike Ford had spoken clearly: >>What's the difference between the 100 and the 102? Any other models? > >Isn't there some really active Model 100 mailing list or newsgroup even? Okay... haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I *do* have to step in here... (so I don't have a 4000 page email by the time I'm done with the thread! ;-) There is a good mailing list for the Kyocera-based laptops (Tandy Models 100/200/102, NEC 8201A, Olivetti M10, and others -- but not the Tandy 600 - it was OEM'ed by Zenith) -- to subscribe send an empty message to m100-subscribe@list.30below.com, you'll receive a confirmation email, just click reply and send. You'll be subbed. If you have problems, just contact me - I admin the list. Also, if anyone -- ahem -- *Anyone* has any Model 100/102/200 files, just email them to me, I have an FTP space available as well: ftp://ftp.30below.com/Model100 The man to know about the Model 'T's as they're affectiontely called is Rick Hanson - he *still* makes a portion of his living by supporting these beloved little machines - his website is chuck full of information, programs & stuff for them: http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html *Plus* he has a guestbook, for sale and wanted classified lists - you can go there to get a good idea what the computers are still worth, which is considerable despite their age. They were *very* popular machines, especially with journalists. Tell him I sent you... he's a fantastic guy. If you have any other questions (which I may get to later in the thread), just send 'em my way. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 20:10:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <002401be7a52$7d4603c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I agree that the ramdisk improved performance. It was just the implementations that made the system so fragile once ramdisk was in place. The usefulness of the ramdisk was limited by its size, and, since I had hard disks back then anyway, the speed of which was nearly infinite as compared with the floppies, it didn't improve things very much. The virtual disk features with which I had contact were pretty memory hungry, in that they required a fair sized buffer in order to allow speedy caching of data from the drive from which it was being loaded. They typically used a mini-bank switching arrangement on the order of what EMS used in PC's at one time, which required your system be compatible with it or that it provide a buffer in lower memory so that the higher memory could be switched in and out. This became quite taxing in terms of hardware resources and memory bandwidth. Ramdisk didn't become interesting until I could copy a whole diskette to it. Since that was much more easily accomplished with hard disk, I didn't devote too much time to it. You're certainly right about the observations you made of the effect of various floppy disk handling factors, e.g. sector skew, on performance. Since you're probably referring to SSSD floppies, which were not only the smallest but also the slowest, I can see why you might favor such a scheme. I seldom used SSSD except for interchange of data. Buffering a whole track in memory while reading the next meant a fair amount of memory since the same buffer was used hard disks and floppies. A hard disk track had between 32 256-byte sectors, and 10 1K sectors. With the Lark drive (SMD) it was a bit more, but I don't remember the details. The sectors were odd-sized. The software overhead was burdensome only because it had to reserve quite a bit of memory in order to block and deblock on a track-by track basis. That's why we didn't use ramdisk. One could manage disk I/O almost transparently when the disk was spinning at 3600 instead of 360 rpm. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:33 PM Subject: Re: followup: Rinky dink hamfest >< > >Way off. Caching disks for CP/M-any (especally 2.2) is a huge performance >boost. CPM suffers from waiting on the disk and often the difference >between a slow system and a fast one is how the disks were handled. Having >run ram disks, caches, caching controllers I have studied where the >bottlenecks are and the most common is the CPU spinning in PIO or worse >waiting for the sector to come around to do PIO. > >the software over head for caching is small. once you go over 128 byte >sector size yo need a host buffer to deblock it... you can read a whole >track in and deblock that. Free cache. > >Allison > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Mar 29 20:06:27 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? Message-ID: <37172f98.3797864981@insight> Having secured a copy of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC on paper tape (autographed by the man himself!), I'm in the process of adding a teletype simulator to the COSMAC Elf simulator. It's a bit strange because the 1802 code does bit-banged serial i/o, and my simulated teletype has to do bit-banged serial i/o back at it. At least initially, rather than hack all the 1802 code to run at a faster baud rate, I'm simulating 110 baud with my "teletype", so most of the time the emulated 1802 and the emulated teletype sit there waiting for each other to send data. It's _almost_ working, but I'm getting some odd results that I think may stem from an incomplete understanding of the way the ASR-33 and others of that vintage send and receive data. I'm testing with some code in an article about interfacing the Elf to a Teletype, so I'm pretty sure the Elf code is correct. I'm using 110 bits per second, no parity, 8 data bits, one low (logic 0) start bit, and one high (logic 1) stop bit. It seems to like the data low-order-bit first, but I have nothing that confirms that how it should work. I'm also working from the assumption that the data bits, the stop bit, and the start bit are all the same length. Also, I'm assuming that the "110 bits per second" includes the time for the stop and start bits, but I'm not sure of that either. It seems to be transferring characters; I get consistent hex values for each character I send to the Elf, but they seem to usually be either shifted left or right by one bit, or they have the high bit set when it shouldn't be. It feels like I've either added extra bits or am missing some in there somewhere. Can someone who knows this information for sure clear these things up for me? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Mar 29 20:21:17 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990329212117.0096a800@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Ward D. Griffiths III had spoken clearly: >Total mind-fart on that one. That's what I get for composing >messages at the end of a sleepless weekend. It's the white >screen desktop 4s that were rare, the 4p started out with white >then went green. I did know one guy who dropped his 4p and broke >the tube, went with a third-party amber replacement. Hummpf. There were six white-screen Model 4's at my high school - I always thought white was the standard for them. Maybe I should go find out if they're still kicking around there??? ;-) >Advertised in every epidode of 80-Micro. ^^^^^^^ You sound stuffed up - maybe a nice cup of tea could help??? ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 20:09:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <199903300209.AA27118@world.std.com> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 30 March 1999 6:43 Subject: Re: Decwriter II >The paper out logic is pretty simple. The output of the switches goes >through a little RC circuit to the input of a 7474 d-type (unfortunately >which chip this is depends on the board version - it's E5b on an M7723 >and E34b on an M7728). The output of that ff is the ready line. marvin was kind enough to post similar data. Looking at that area this afternoon. >It appears that the switch is closed when the printer is out of paper. So >my first test would be to find the 100 Ohm resistor between the D-input >of that chip (pin 12) and pin BB on the keyboard connector. Unsolder it. >This disconnects all the switches. Does it work now? No. >I don't, alas, have the schematic of the chassis. But it appears from a >general wiring diagram that the paper out switch is in parallel with the >cover interlock switch. Have you checked that one? Yes. the switches are not implicated. I disconnected the whole switch assembly, still no go. Stuck output on the chip I'll bet, the fact it was intermittent for a while makes a logic chip failure even more likely. (I don't think I mentioned that earlier) Thanks for your help...... Cheer Geoff Roberts From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 20:09:39 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Hi and PDP stuff... Message-ID: <199903300209.AA27291@world.std.com> Ok folks here is the deal... Tony has his hand full with an impending move and work. I'm going to pickup a truck (toyota) load of the stuff. I have first dibs on vax and Qbus but will gladly share excess (there will be plenty!). If it doesn't fit in the truck I will not be getting it. If it can't easily be shipped UPS dont ask me to ship it. I will ship stuff IF... It's under 30lb and fits in reasonable cardboard boxes. I do not have a shipping dock or service so if I ship it, people will pay for packing, and UPS. Just being upfront. >Just how much does one of these (*#^@&* things weigh? I had to move mine >today to get a monitor box for a 21" monitor that was sitting behind it. >After moving the DECwriter the monitor which was about 80 pounds seemed >downright lite! > I know they are under 140 lbs. I FedX P1 shipped one for a customer. (it had to be under 150 to go P1 and not the freight group) Also 2 of them on a pallet with a heavy box over them was 270 lbs IIRC. They are just cumbersome. Dan From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 29 20:14:06 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Paging Bill Pechter... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990329181406.00977590@mail.bluefeathertech.com> ...Would Mr. Bill Pechter please respond, either to the list or to me, with a valid E-mail address? I cannot make either of the two I have work. I've got pechter@pechter.ddns.org and pechter@ddns.org. Both bounce with timeout messages. Thank you. We now return to your normal programming. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 20:20:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <002701be7a53$eaba3a60$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please see comments imbedded below. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> >> Thanks for posting this information. It might be useful, in addition, at >> least to me, to have to correspondence with the S-100 bus pins so they can >> be cross-referenced to the '696 standard signal names. I do hve the 8080 >> data in house, but nothing tying it to the S-100 bus pinout or timing. > >Isn't this already on-line somewhere? If not, I could type in the pin >descriptions for the Altair 8800b bus that I happen to have here. I have >a very useful book called 'The S100 Handbook' that contains things like >the S100 pinout, schematics for a dozen common cards (including Altair >and Imsai CPU/frontpanel/memory), etc. But I'd rather not duplicate the >work if I don't have to. > >> >> Actually, it might be as correct to say that 8088 signal names are more or >> less like "all the other" microcomputers in the non-Motorola camp. with the >> 8085 and z-80, it became obvious that the large number of strange signals >> generated by the 8080 didn't even help the Intel folks with the task of >> interfacing the processor to memory and peripheral devices. The simple > >One of the problems with the S100 bus is that it is _very_ dependant on >the 8080 signals. Even using a Z80 is a bit of work - things like PINTE >(which indicates if interrupts are enabled) and SSTACK (address lines >contain the value of the stack pointer) don't exist as external signals >on the Z80. What's more, those signals are really of little use. They could be, but it was too much trouble to use them when they were available, so the fact they aren't is of no concern. >> a transfer of data to or from the processor. Additionally, it's nice to >> know whether the read or write is between the processor and memory or I/O. >> With the MOT class of processor, you have an address strobe to tell you a >> cycle's begun, and you have to decode the address to determine whether it's > >Actually, I prefer the Motorola / PDP11 idea of having memory and I/O in >the same address space. It means you can use the same instructions and >addressing modes to access either. > >If the total address space is large enough, you don't need all of it for >memory, so you can assign (say) 1/256th of the entire address space for >I/O. So you use something like an 8-input NAND to decode the top 8 >address lines. One TTL chip. Not a lot of work IMHO. Yes, this was a common approach, and one which we used with bus-based memory mapped I/O on the 6502 and 6809, etc. With a small address space, though, is was common to have the PROM live above the I/O page because the reset vector lived there anyway. With the I/O mapped processors, where the ROM was expected to live at the bottom of addressable memory, tricks had to be used to make the rom at the bottom go away and be replaced with I/O handlers at the top. Intel finally figured that out with the 8086 family, but with IBM's implementation, it became a pain. There it might have been more practical to put all the ROM at the bottom, with each adapter having a pointer at its beginning to indicate where it ended. >[Incidentally, can people please trim the messages they are replying to. >It's not necessary IMHO to include a complete copy at the end of your reply] > >-tony From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 29 20:33:07 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <37172f98.3797864981@insight> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 02:06 30-03-1999 GMT, you wrote: >results that I think may stem from an incomplete understanding of the >way the ASR-33 and others of that vintage send and receive data. I'm >testing with some code in an article about interfacing the Elf to a >Teletype, so I'm pretty sure the Elf code is correct. I'm using 110 >bits per second, no parity, 8 data bits, one low (logic 0) start bit, >and one high (logic 1) stop bit. It seems to like the data The parity or the stop bits may be what's biting you in the arse. Try some various combos and see what happens. It's been decades since I worked on those things, so my memory of their innards is sketchy. >bit, and the start bit are all the same length. Also, I'm assuming that >the "110 bits per second" includes the time for the stop and start bits, Actually, ASR-33's ran at 110 Baud rather than BPS. Best of luck! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 20:48:55 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Picture of my latest haul Message-ID: <199903300248.AA25542@world.std.com> >For one thing, I want to ask what a few of these items are. For one >thing, what are the three identical units on the rightmost rack? Also, >what is the tall unit right above the green PDP in the middle rack? Also, >what is the top unit in the short blue rack? If you check my home_systems web page, in the recent_acquisitions section, I have the items listed. To answer the question, in the first rack are 3 RL01s, 1 RX01, a pdp-8/a and a pdp-8/e. In the second rack are TU56, 2 Diablo (RK05 equivalents) and a lab-8/e (the section above the blue/green 8/e panel is the I/O area for data acquisition). The third rack contains a laboratory peripheral system (LPS) which is a UNIBUS option... >Next question: Is there anything you can do with these that my DECMate >can't do (besides peripherals that the DECMate doesn't have) I will be able to copy data between multiple formats -- RK05, RL01, DECtape, RX01. I'll be able to breadboard stuff that could be connected to the lab-8/e... something not pictured is a display scope on which the lab-8/e could display stuff by driving beam X and Y and beam intensity. >Last question: What did you use to make this picture? Powershot 350 digital camera, downloaded to my PC, gamma-edited, uploaded to the web page along with updates to the home_systems.html page to point to the new picture... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rickb at pail.enginet.com Mon Mar 29 20:52:14 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <37172f98.3797864981@insight> Message-ID: <002601be7a58$51214c40$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> Try two stop bits. I seem to remember that there were two stop bits at 110 baud on the ASR-33. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510 From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 18:18:45 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: References: <002201be7a2e$ae6520e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990329181845.08bf2f26@earthlink.net> At 01:06 AM 3/30/99 +0100, Tony wrote: > >> Actually, it might be as correct to say that 8088 signal names are more or >> less like "all the other" microcomputers in the non-Motorola camp. with the >> 8085 and z-80, it became obvious that the large number of strange signals >> generated by the 8080 didn't even help the Intel folks with the task of >> interfacing the processor to memory and peripheral devices. The simple > >One of the problems with the S100 bus is that it is _very_ dependant on >the 8080 signals. Even using a Z80 is a bit of work - things like PINTE >(which indicates if interrupts are enabled) and SSTACK (address lines >contain the value of the stack pointer) don't exist as external signals >on the Z80. > Of course if you wire your own Z-80, you can ignore most of the weird signals if you are using static ram. Just use a memory write signal for writes, and another to gate read data onto the buss. >Actually, I prefer the Motorola / PDP11 idea of having memory and I/O in >the same address space. It means you can use the same instructions and >addressing modes to access either. > There is nothing in the Z-80, etc. to prevent you from using memory mapped I/O. Of course if some peripheral hardware uses I/O instruction decoding, them you use those instructions for its interface. -Dave From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 20:55:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <199903300255.AA00307@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199903300243.SAA28101@daemonweed.reanimators.org> bill_r@inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) wrote: > Teletype, so I'm pretty sure the Elf code is correct. I'm using 110 > bits per second, no parity, 8 data bits, one low (logic 0) start bit, > and one high (logic 1) stop bit. It seems to like the data I'm thinking that when you get down to 110 bps it is more usual to use two stop bits (or one that's twice as long as a data bit). -Frank McConnell From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 29 21:08:08 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Decwriter II In-Reply-To: <004e01be7a51$e1bcd0a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: >I know they are under 140 lbs. I FedX P1 shipped one for a customer. (it >had to be under 150 to go P1 and not the freight group) Also 2 of them on a >pallet with a heavy box over them was 270 lbs IIRC. They are just >cumbersome. I couldn't figure out if it was the shape that makes it so bad, or if it's really that heavy. A RL02 drive or a 21" monitor is easy by comparision. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ss at allegro.com Mon Mar 29 21:14:35 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Help: root password for System V/i860 Message-ID: <199903300314.TAA20421@bart.allegro.com> Hi, I just picked up an i860 box, which has System V on it ... and I don't know the root password. If I interrupt the boot cycle at the start, I get a prompt of "?". If I say "boot", it boots System V and puts me at a login prompt. Is there a way to get logged on as root without knowing the root password? thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From a2k at one.net Mon Mar 29 21:21:40 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Help: root password for System V/i860 In-Reply-To: <199903300314.TAA20421@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: Hello, I'm not very familier with System V, but can you boot it into single-user mode? Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 ss@allegro.com wrote: > Hi, > > I just picked up an i860 box, which has System V on it ... and I don't > know the root password. If I interrupt the boot cycle at the start, > I get a prompt of "?". If I say "boot", it boots System V and puts me > at a login prompt. Is there a way to get logged on as root without > knowing the root password? > > thanks, > Stan Sieler > sieler@allegro.com > From karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au Mon Mar 29 21:10:31 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Strange DEC box Message-ID: Hi All, Today I salvaged a very odd looking DEC box, and I have no idea what it is. It is in a black metal case, with vents at the top, the external ports look like those of a VT-100, it has Video in, Video Out, Comm, 20ma Current Loop, and keyboard. The model number is stamped 70-17562-01, but the Serial number is stamped N/A. Does anyone know what this is? I suspect it is some kind of terminal, but I'm not sure. Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 29 21:55:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: followup: Rinky dink hamfest Message-ID: <005601be7a62$2229c8e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> I have to defer to your more recent experience. Aside from the occasional job requiring my portable development station, I seldom used CP/M after 1984 or so. I did have a farily flexible prom programmer with which I could program parts not yet supported on my PC-based programmer, but in the span between '81 and '84, I had other concerns. I have no idea, however, how you block and deblock I/O with 1K blocks when you have only 1k in your sector buffer. I suppose I could go back and look at the software, but the stuff I had at my disposal at the time seemed to work best with a big hard disk requiring the largest available granules (allocation blocks) and since the logical drives were limited to 8MB and since CP/M was pretty much a thing of the past, I didn't see any point in wasting time and resources fine-tuning it. I used it because I had a few already-paid for cross assemblers and other tools for CP/M. Once a decent version of the PC-DOS became available, I was sure to make the switch. Of course I didn't realize how long that would be. Nonetheless, once I had a PC with a '186 processor, I could run the CPM emulator to use my tools and the more modern hardware to do my work, and the CPM became a relic. It had performed fairly well and competitively with the PC up to the point at which I got an XT clone which used a '186 at 16 MHz. Together with a couple of fairly fast drives it outperformed CP/M on the Z-80 even when it was emulating CP/M. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 8:01 PM Subject: Re: followup: Rinky dink hamfest > >I have a kaypro with a 2048k ramdisk, it screams and would beat any kaypro >Allison > From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Mar 29 22:05:42 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Strange DEC box Message-ID: <009d01be7a62$aac3e0a0$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Yes. That is the "toaster" that is a VT100 logic board and power supply to provide 'normal' text and video sync on green with a VS11 graphics board set. I have a few here along with the VS11 boards and docs. If you don't have the VS11and cab kit you can use the video out and go straight into a VR241 green. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Karl Maftoum To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 11:03 PM Subject: Strange DEC box > >Hi All, > >Today I salvaged a very odd looking DEC box, and I have no idea what it >is. It is in a black metal case, with vents at the top, the external ports >look like those of a VT-100, it has Video in, Video Out, Comm, 20ma >Current Loop, and keyboard. The model number is stamped 70-17562-01, but >the Serial number is stamped N/A. > >Does anyone know what this is? I suspect it is some kind of terminal, but >I'm not sure. > >Cheers >Karl > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > >Karl Maftoum >Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia > >Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au > From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 22:15:34 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Strange DEC box Message-ID: <199903300415.AA23748@world.std.com> >Today I salvaged a very odd looking DEC box, and I have no idea what it >is. It is in a black metal case, with vents at the top, the external >ports look like those of a VT-100, it has Video in, Video Out, Comm, 20ma >Current Loop, and keyboard. The model number is stamped 70-17562-01, but >the Serial number is stamped N/A. > >Does anyone know what this is? I suspect it is some kind of terminal, but >I'm not sure. I think it is the VT100 portion of a VSV11... the output of the VT100 in that box could be fed through a signal cable to the VSV11, and thus displayed... (If you otherwise have no need for it, I have a VSV11 without that part). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 29 22:27:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? Message-ID: <199903300427.AA00721@world.std.com> Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter is/was? Looks like a punch card sorter of some sort. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 29 22:46:08 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <002601be7a58$51214c40$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> References: <37172f98.3797864981@insight> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329204608.0124e920@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:52 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: >Try two stop bits. I seem to remember that there were two stop bits >at 110 baud on the ASR-33. Yep... did not drop to one stop bit until you hit 300 baud. (eek!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Mar 29 23:01:57 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > is/was? > > Looks like a punch card sorter of some sort. From: 'Business Data Processing' E. Awad (1968)... [picture] caption: The IBM 557 interpreter [text] "Interpreting is converting machine language into human language. (...) A distinction can be made easily between printing by interpreter and that done by key punch. The latter machine prints on the top of the same column that contains the hole(s), whereas the interpreter merely prints across the face of the card" [end text] So what you seem to have is a Big Box that takes un-marked punch cards and prints out their contents just below their twelve-edge. Do you actually *own* this, or just know where one is? Tres Cool! Cheerz John From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 29 23:07:46 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 29, 99 08:37:05 pm Message-ID: <199903300507.VAA21764@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > is/was? > > Looks like a punch card sorter of some sort. If it's what I think it is, it simply prints a line of text on the card, above the holes. That's "interpreting" the punches to produce human- readable text. what makes you think it looks like a sorter? If it has two output bins and one input bin, it may simply reject bad cards. If it has more output bins then it probably does something I don't know about. (You can tell if it really is a sorter because they have about 11 bins -- one for each digit plus one for rejects. Sorters are unmistakable.) -- Derek From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 29 23:14:18 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329211418.00e5de90@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:37 PM 3/29/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter >is/was? > >Looks like a punch card sorter of some sort. Not quite... The 557 interpreter reads and prints the content of a card back onto the card, in a format of up to 60 print columns and on one of 25 selectable horizontal positions. Thie was a more advanced model that the previous 548 and 552 models, and had more available options. Some of these included: (quoted from "IBM Machine Operation and Wiring - 2nd edition") * Repetitive print for printing on detail cards the information read from an X or NX master * Proof checking of interpreting and other functions * A second print entry that will permit one control panel to handle two lines or two jobs * A pre-sensing (control-X reading) station for use in selecting alphabetic information and also for use in the repetitive-print operation * Large type wheels and check protection (for printing checks) Up to four selective stackers So, why? Did you find one??? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 29 23:19:09 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329211909.01114e70@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:37 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > >Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter >is/was? ... and yes, if you had not guessed... I still have a manual on how to program these things! (now, if I could just remember that trick that we used to teach a 402 tabulator how to multiply... B^} ) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 29 23:22:43 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: <199903300507.VAA21764@saul3.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329212243.011aab90@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:07 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Derek wrote: >...what makes you think it looks like a sorter? If it has two output bins and >one input bin, it may simply reject bad cards. If it has more output bins >then it probably does something I don't know about. (You can tell if it >really is a sorter because they have about 11 bins -- one for each digit >plus one for rejects. Sorters are unmistakable.) Ummm... (hollerith) card sorters (at least the IBM 83 sitting here beside me) have 13 bins. 0-9, 11, 12, and reject... B^} (reject... snicker... the 'Hawaii Five-O' story on my web pages...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rws at enteract.com Mon Mar 29 23:23:43 1999 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Oneac ON! computer Message-ID: Hi everybody- First off my e-mail address changed. I used to be rws@ais.net, now it's rws@enteract.com. Second, at the LAMARSfest yesterday at Grayslake IL (which was pretty poor- a few expensive C=64's, lots of expensive PC clones, and not much else), I got an Oneac ON! computer. (Actually somebody was holding a "weird CP/M computer" for me there.) It's a black box about a foot square by 3" tall, with no on/off switch, a huge capacitor inside across the rectified mains to keep the switcher running for a while in case of power failure, and serial console I/O. It has a ONFILE (basically a RAMdisk) of 2 MB, in 4256 DRAMs. A 5 1/4" DSQD floppy is permanently connected by ribbon cable. It appears from the somewhat sketchy manual that it runs ZCPR. Upon plugging it in and waiting 30 seconds, hitting CR gets a nice main menu with choices of a (decent) monitor, initialize the ONFILE, run Z-system, and a few other things. I can't get it to load from disk to init the ONFILE yet but I didn't try very hard yet. Has anyone even heard of this thing? It looks pretty neat. I hope I can get it running. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Mar 29 23:23:51 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail's message of Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:05 -0800 (PST) References: Message-ID: <199903300523.VAA03477@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > is/was? Yeah, it "interprets" punched cards, meaning it reads the punches and prints human-readable characters, probably across the 12-edge. "Alphabetic" probably means "can do letters too" (in addition to 0-9). I vaguely remember one that used to sit in the University of Maryland College Park Computer Science Center dispatch room, as I recall it would print sixty-mumble characters across the the 12-edge and put the next eleventy-so off to the right about where the 12-punches would be. -Frank McConnell From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 29 23:27:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > Actually, ASR-33's ran at 110 Baud rather than BPS. Same difference. (you were just joking though, I'm sure) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 29 23:41:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, John Lawson wrote: > Do you actually *own* this, or just know where one is? Tres Cool! I might very soon. Its a huge beast! Too adorable to ignore. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Mar 29 23:48:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990329211909.01114e70@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > At 08:37 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > > > >Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > >is/was? > > ... and yes, if you had not guessed... I still have a manual on how to > program these things! Cool. I especially liked the patch panel. I'd love to learn how to program the thing. > (now, if I could just remember that trick that we used to teach a 402 > tabulator how to multiply... B^} ) Are you implying these things had some general purpose computing attributes? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From svs at ropnet.ru Tue Mar 30 00:53:02 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: Floor tiles In-Reply-To: ; from William Donzelli on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:43:40PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <19990330095302.06190@firepower> On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:43:40PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > Are European floor tiles for computer rooms 2 feet square, like those > found in the U.S., or are they smaller? They are 60x60 cm. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 30 00:02:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:27 2005 Subject: followup Message-ID: <001001be7a72$f66f43e0$0100c0a8@fuj03> > >You copy the sector to the 1k ram area and then copy out the desired >sector. the real trick is keeping track of whats in ram and if it has >to be written back. I guess it's fortunate there was only one DMA process going on at the time, else it might have been real sticky figuring out what had been overwritten already.. If you were doing a read in order to do a write, using DMA, you might actually get tangled up. Fortunately that showed up while the vendor was debugging his code, so I didn't have to deal with that. ><(allocation blocks) and since the logical drives were limited to 8MB and > >the largest allocation blocks are due to the need to store in ram on a bit >per allocation block basis, a bit for every allocation block on the disk. >for something like a 8mb disk using 4k blcks that would be 256 bytes! That's quite so. Fortunately one wasn't required to load data at the granule size, but rather at the sector size, so you could get by with a read of a 1K sector. Of course you had to read it before you could write it, so you had to wait for the next revolution of the disk. All this went by so fast, and, since I didn't run big databases requiring sorts to and from disk, I didn't perceive much delay, as it only takes a few revolutions to load up a program. So each drive had six logical drives on it. > >Shame. I still use it. And I'm still finding ways to tune it for even >more performance. It was the active full time OS amd machine until >89 when I went pdp-11. After that it was the part time on line system. > >Current project is to add heirarchal directories (not the ZCPR user thing). >it turns out to be doable though the bdos will have to be altered. This all sounds like it could be fun if, for example, you're running it all on classic and unmodified hardware. I'm not sure I'd want to try to earn my living that way, though. >Allison > From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 30 00:09:42 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Post-move diary Message-ID: <199903300609.AA06472@world.std.com> Okay, since it has been a long time since I last did anything with a real pdp-8, and since I did pdp-11s for some 20+ years, I decided to start with what I knew... so I started examining the pdp-11/34a I got in the recent move. Turns out that the system box has the cpu backplane, one DD11-DK (9 slot backplane for taking 'small peripheral controller' (SPC) boards), and one VT11 backplane. Unfortunately, there is no power harness on the backplane, no boards in the backplane, and no cable to attach the boards to the VR14 that I did get. I think I may have a VT11 backplane with power harness and boards somewhere in my 'warehouse' (a couple of closets). The machine has the programmers console, but no memory. In one of the boxes I got in the move, I got a couple of MS11-LB memory boards, so I'll use one of them. I think I also got an FPU, but I'll need to see if I got prints for the 11/34a to see where it goes and how it gets connected (if it does). I don't have a cache board, so I'll be looking for one of those. I think I have an RL11 somewhere... but I'll need an RL drive. I may, for the time-being, take one of the RL01s from the -8 system racks. I also have an RUX50 controller and some RX50 disks, so I may try to get that working... I might be able to boot the XXDP+ RX50 kit that I have and do some system diagnostics. That's it for now... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 30 00:11:04 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990329212243.011aab90@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Mar 29, 99 09:22:43 pm Message-ID: <199903300611.WAA29715@saul6.u.washington.edu> > Ummm... (hollerith) card sorters (at least the IBM 83 sitting here beside > me) have 13 bins. > > 0-9, 11, 12, and reject... B^} I knew that. Anyway, I said they had about 11 bins. Sometimes it pays to be vague. Can you actually use the sorter yet or is it still blocked by a huge pile of stuff? Last I saw, you could put cards in but not take them out (easily). -- Derek From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 30 00:15:31 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990329211909.01114e70@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329221531.00d2f890@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:48 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: >> At 08:37 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: >> > >> >Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter >> >is/was? >> >> ... and yes, if you had not guessed... I still have a manual on how to >> program these things! > >Cool. I especially liked the patch panel. I'd love to learn how to >program the thing. OOH!!! I see a program for VCF III coming on! "Progamming IBM Unit Record Equipment"! You will have to find a couple of more pieces tho... We'll need a keypunch, a sorter would be nice, (I have both of those, but they are a bit hard to move that far), a reproducer would probably be excessive, but a tabulator or calculator would be just keen! (WARNING - IBM had a REAL interesting definition of "calculator") A collator might be fun too... >> (now, if I could just remember that trick that we used to teach a 402 >> tabulator how to multiply... B^} ) > >Are you implying these things had some general purpose computing >attributes? Yes... (BTW: brain fart - it was a 403 that we taught how to multiply) The Tabulators could do addition, subtraction, and summary functions (basic accounting machines) controlled by the programming on the plug board. The Calculators could also do multiply, divide, and logical functions. Again, controleld by plug boards and the cards... Any which way... watch out what you ask for! I can probably still teach someone how to program these things! B^} (Damn, I'm starting to feel old!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 30 00:19:10 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Sorters (was Re: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter??) In-Reply-To: <199903300611.WAA29715@saul6.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.3.32.19990329212243.011aab90@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990329221910.00e1ab40@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:11 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Derek wrote: >> Ummm... (hollerith) card sorters (at least the IBM 83 sitting here beside >> me) have 13 bins. >> >> 0-9, 11, 12, and reject... B^} > >I knew that. Anyway, I said they had about 11 bins. Sometimes it pays to >be vague. > >Can you actually use the sorter yet or is it still blocked by a huge pile of >stuff? Last I saw, you could put cards in but not take them out (easily). Well... as I'm in the middle of rearranging the garage (yet again) (come on good weather!), it varies from day to day... ;^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 30 00:20:23 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 29, 99 09:48:39 pm Message-ID: <199903300620.WAA29761@saul6.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > ... and yes, if you had not guessed... I still have a manual on how to > > program these things! > > Cool. I especially liked the patch panel. I'd love to learn how to > program the thing. > > > (now, if I could just remember that trick that we used to teach a 402 > > tabulator how to multiply... B^} ) > > Are you implying these things had some general purpose computing > attributes? In the case of the 557, not really. I imagine you could set some parameters and "tune" the logic (to block out certain columns, etc.). Also, someone mentioned that the thing will do totals. I'm sure it has a miniscule amount of storage and no branching or looping logic. The program only exists as wiring. In the case of the 432, there is some more but not much. I've heard that people who were very used to punch-card equipment had trouble understanding modern computers. My evidence is books that explained computers in terms of punch-card equipment (which boils down to a lot of specialized devices with delicate yet narrow-minded programs all connected together) and also the stories of really badly-written programs. Just think, you get to make the reverse jump in understanding. If you want to see a VERY warped hybrid between computers and "old-stuyle" punch-card equipment, check out RPG. There are even GUI versions (I find that very disturbing). -- Derek From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Mar 30 00:27:25 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <199903300627.QAA31842@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 21:27 29/03/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > >> Actually, ASR-33's ran at 110 Baud rather than BPS. > >Same difference. No, Baud and BPS are different. Baud is the number of signalling changes per second. Normally, each signal change gives one bit and then Baud == BPS, but if you encode more than one bit per signal change then they are not the same. This is easily achieved if you have different voltages mean different values. For example, if you use -10V, -5V, 5V and 10V to encode 0, 1, 2 and 3 then the bit rate is twice the baud rate. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 30 00:40:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <199903300627.QAA31842@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Huw Davies wrote: > No, Baud and BPS are different. Baud is the number of signalling changes > per second. Normally, each signal change gives one bit and then Baud == > BPS, but if you encode more than one bit per signal change then they are > not the same. This is easily achieved if you have different voltages mean > different values. For example, if you use -10V, -5V, 5V and 10V to encode > 0, 1, 2 and 3 then the bit rate is twice the baud rate. My ignorance stands naked as the day I was born. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Mar 30 00:48:35 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990329224835.0095c960@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:27 29-03-1999 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > >> Actually, ASR-33's ran at 110 Baud rather than BPS. > >Same difference. > >(you were just joking though, I'm sure) No I was not, and it's not necessarily the same (contrary to popular belief). From 'Data Transmission, Second Edition' by Tugal and Tugal (McGraw-Hill, 1989), Pages 133-134: "...The transmission rate is generally expressed in Baud (Bd). Although in most systems it is equivalent to bits per second (b/s), the baud transmission rate must not be confused with the information rate, bits per second, the rate at which actual data are transmitted. One baud signal may carry one or more bits of the data..." The book goes on to detail some specific examples. In essence, in a case where QAM (Quadrature Amplitude Modulation) is used between a pair of 9600 b/s modems, every discrete change in the signal represents four bits. 9600/4 = 2400, so the actual 'baud' rate of such a signal is 2400, even though the bits/second is 9600. They give another example specifically related to the transmission of ASCII code where the baud rate is representative of the total number of bits in a single character (11 in their example, made up of 8 data, 1 start, and two stop bits). Anyway, it makes a good read. The book itself may be a bit dated, but the principles don't change. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 30 01:15:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990329231135.00a42660@mcmanis.com> At 09:27 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: >Same difference. [110 baud vs 110 bps ] Bzzzt! And thanks for playing. Actually this would be a reasonably good trivia question. The term 'baud' is used to indicate signalling states, the term 'bits' is used to represent transmitted data. The ASR-33 transmits 110 signaling states (bauds) per second, out of every 11 one is a start bit, eight are data bits, and two are stop bits, thus the number of bits per second is actually 8/11 * 110 or 80 bits per second. When you use 8 bits to represent a character this is 10 characters per second. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 30 01:31:37 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Post-move diary In-Reply-To: <199903300609.AA06472@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990329232817.00a20ca0@mcmanis.com> At 01:09 AM 3/30/99 -0500, Megan wrote: >Unfortunately, there is no power harness on the backplane, no boards in >the backplane, and no cable to attach the boards to the VR14 that I did >get. I hate it when that happens. I find a system only to find that it has been an organ donor for some other system. >The machine has the programmers console, but no memory. Sounds like one of my PDP-8's :-) >I think I have an RL11 somewhere... but I'll need an RL drive. I've got an RL01 that I'd be happy to trade you for a bit of PDP-8 memory. >That's it for now... The fun begins, seeing them come back to life is the coolest part. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 30 01:36:26 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Dec color schemes Message-ID: <4.1.19990329233423.00a1f950@mcmanis.com> Another interesting thing I noticed this evening is that the color scheme of the PDP-8/f is subtley different than the scheme of the 8/m. The Rust colored handles are the same but the brown ones are more yellow. Megan's got a picture of the green one that was the 'lab' 8. How many were there? --Chuck (who thought he had extra 8 switches but finds he has mostly extra 8/m switches) From kevan at heydon.org Tue Mar 30 07:01:28 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic range... Message-ID: I have been offered a "Vector Graphic B" and would like to find some more information about it. I have found they did a 1 and 1+ from the Haddock book and I have seen reference to an "MZ" on the comprehensive computer catalogue. Where there other machines in their range? The "B" apparently runs the p-system was this common for these machines or did they run any other systems? I would like to talk to any other collectors out there who have one of these machines so I can work out just what I will be getting. Many Thanks -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From at258 at osfn.org Tue Mar 30 08:15:12 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Decwriter II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, tish! A Decwriter II is easily handled in one hand if there are 2 of you. Now a Wang 5573, that is weight. It'd herniate a platoon. The Decwriter is almost a portable in comparison. On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Just how much does one of these (*#^@&* things weigh? I had to move mine > today to get a monitor box for a 21" monitor that was sitting behind it. > After moving the DECwriter the monitor which was about 80 pounds seemed > downright lite! > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From gram at cnct.com Tue Mar 30 08:38:09 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: OT: 'Melissa' Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Ward Griffiths proclaimed > >to let it access disk. But as soon as I finish converting some > >spreadsheets to StarOffice, Excell goes and at that point I'll > >probably fiddling with Wine. Actually, that was supposed to be "I probably _quit_ fiddling with Wine". > Check out http://www.vmware.com instead. It's one of the coolist bits of > software I've seen on the PC. Just what Linux needs to run Microsoft apps. > Finally a way that your system doesn't get taken down when Windows crashes! vmware looks interesting, but pricey. If I need to run something other than Linux, I'll use another system for OS/2. Excell is literally the _last_ Windows application I'm running. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 30 09:23:33 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary In-Reply-To: <199903300609.AA06472@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990330082607.00a2e5b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:09 AM 3/30/99 -0500, Megan said something like: > >Okay, since it has been a long time since I last did anything with a real >pdp-8, and since I did pdp-11s for some 20+ years, I decided to start with >what I knew... so I started examining the pdp-11/34a I got in the recent >move. Hi Megan, Great choice to start with! (Uhh, actually, I'm trying to get my own 11/34A running and this will open up our list colleagues' assistance for benefit of both of us ;-) > >Turns out that the system box has the cpu backplane, one DD11-DK (9 slot >backplane for taking 'small peripheral controller' (SPC) boards), and >one VT11 backplane. The 11/34A CPU backplane (slots 1-9) has to be a DD11-PK. Does the ID label on the outside, right side panel of the system box say 1134A xx or is it BA11 xx? > >Unfortunately, there is no power harness on the backplane, no boards in >the backplane, and no cable to attach the boards to the VR14 that I did >get. > >I think I may have a VT11 backplane with power harness and boards >somewhere in my 'warehouse' (a couple of closets). Can't help with the VT11. Sorry. Sounds quite cool though. > >The machine has the programmers console, but no memory. Should have three cables connecting to the console panel: a two-wire shielded cable going to the M9312 (P/N: 70-11413-3F), a four-wire twisted cable going to the H765 PSU (P/N: 70-11992-0-0) and a 20 cond. flat cable (P/N: 70-12214-2D) which goes to the M7859 Programmer's Console module. > >In one of the boxes I got in the move, I got a couple of MS11-LB memory These are M7891-xx. My MS11-LB (M7891-BC) is 64KW -half filled w/RAM. The MS11-LD I have (M7891-DH) is 128KW, fully stuffed. >boards, so I'll use one of them. I think I also got an FPU, but I'll need The FPU is M8267. (The FP11-A option) >to see if I got prints for the 11/34a to see where it goes and how it gets >connected (if it does). I don't have a cache board, so I'll be looking >for one of those. Cache board # M8268 (the KK11-A option) Important to find the over-the-top jumper boards which go between the various modules and possibly dependent upon whether you have the FPU in or out. I'm assuming you got a box with a rat's nest of cables and misc parts. If so, dig for small PC boards with dual-row, 0.1" center connectors. Part numbers on white paper labels are H8821 with dual 40-pin connectors and (hopefully for addition of your planed FP option) the H8822 with three 40-pin conns. If you do not have the 11/34A printsets and KK11-A Cache tech manual please get back to me and I'll give you more P/N's and some details on what goes where based on my system and 11/34A printsets. This can get confusing with just simple, brief statements. I have not found an FP11-A tech manual and printset and Cache printset as of yet (hint-hint anybody! :) Two other important cables to root around for in the box, which go between the M8266 and M7859, are two 10-conductor flat cables P/N 70-11411-1D. When the M8367 FPU board is plugged-in, they run between the M8267 and the M7859 (this is where the docs are *real* handy) and a over-the-top board connects the M8266 and M8267. The board lineup in my machine is as follows (going from slot #1 to the left) and the first five must be adhered to: #1 M8266, 11/34A Control Module (KD11-EA) #2 M8265, 11/34A Data Path Module (KD11-EA) #3 M8267, 11/34A Floating Point Processor #4 M9312 (slot A-B), Bootstrap/Terminator; #4 M7859 (slot C-D-E-F), Programmer's Console I/F (KY11-LB) #5 M8268, 11/34A Cache (1kbyte) (KK11-A) The following can now be any MUD module . . . #6 M7891-BC, 64KW MOS memory #7 M7762, RL01/2 controller (RL11) #8 G727A, buss grant jumper #9 M9202, backplane jumper to next backplane . . . For you Megan, the first three slots shall be M8266, M8265 and M8267 with the H8821 over-the-top jumper between the 8265 and 8267. So, the H8821 is the hot item to find to get your FPU lit up. If you find an M8268 Cache module, then do either of the following: 1. Take out the M8267 and the over-the-top connector between it (P/N 5412416 printed in the etch underneath) and the M8266 and insert the M8268 and H8821. Plug the two 10-pin flat cables into the M8266. 2. Leave the 8267 in slot three and put the M8268 into slot five and use the H8822 over-the-top connector. That 8822 would be another hot item to find in your parts box. But, I suppose a ribbon cable/IDC connector kluge could be made *if* the lines are straight thru. I haven't traced the connections on my 8822 yet but can if you need me to. Same for the 8821 and 5412416. Jeez, I'm getting confused with all these numbers :-) But I believe I got it right although I'm in a hurry here. Incidentally, my system box has several of the module numbers printed on the slot number label strip going across the top of the backside of the slot cage. Yours may if it is indeed an 11/34A box instead of a generic BA11-K. > >I think I have an RL11 somewhere... but I'll need an RL drive. I may, >for the time-being, take one of the RL01s from the -8 system racks. I >also have an RUX50 controller and some RX50 disks, so I may try to get >that working... I might be able to boot the XXDP+ RX50 kit that I have >and do some system diagnostics. Oh, I am salivating at the RUX50 controller! :) Can you clone that module? :-) :-) > >That's it for now... If you have more questions please holler! I have sever other printsets and tech manuals which may help. I was planning to talk to the list for help on mine in a couple of weeks or less. I've got a real stumper I think. Hope this helps you along with the "11/34A reconstruction". Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 30 09:23:32 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990329211505.0093cd80@mail.30below.com> References: <199903290727.XAA13718@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990330092332.010cb4b0@vpwisfirewall> Has anyone come right out and told you to buy the stack of M100/M102 and re-sell them? There is still an active market for them, here if not in other forums. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 30 09:32:54 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <199903300627.QAA31842@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990330093254.00fefc50@vpwisfirewall> At 04:27 PM 3/30/99 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: >At 21:27 29/03/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: >> >>> Actually, ASR-33's ran at 110 Baud rather than BPS. >> >>Same difference. > >No, Baud and BPS are different. Baud is the number of signalling changes >per second. Normally, each signal change gives one bit and then Baud == >BPS, but if you encode more than one bit per signal change then they are >not the same. It is also quite true of modern telephone modems, which are packing several bits per signal change. >My ignorance stands naked as the day I was born. Hey! What kind of list do you think this is? :-) - John From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 30 10:05:05 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic range... References: Message-ID: <3700F631.6FC3C101@rain.org> Kevan Heydon wrote: > > I have been offered a "Vector Graphic B" and would like to find some more > information about it. I have found they did a 1 and 1+ from the Haddock > book and I have seen reference to an "MZ" on the comprehensive computer > catalogue. Where there other machines in their range? The "B" apparently > runs the p-system was this common for these machines or did they run any > other systems? I would like to talk to any other collectors out there who > have one of these machines so I can work out just what I will be getting. Vector Graphic made a range of machines starting with the Vector I. I am not familiar with all of them, but I believe they were all S-100 machines. The machines I have are the Vector 1, 3, 4, and MZ. I am not familiar at all with the Vector Graphic B; I would pick it up just out of curiousity. All of the machines I have run CP/M. Are you talking about the UCSD P-System? If so, I didn't think that was an operating system, but rather something more like an interpreter. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 30 10:34:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: #026 and #029 keypunches, nor the punch outputs of most computers, did NOT print anything on the card. There also existed interpreters, both as hefty stand-alone, and in #029 housings, that would READ the punches on the card and print the info on the card, so that it would be readable by lusers who didn't know how to read punches. The #029 version printed 80 columns, aligned with the punches (although there was a LITTLE bit of suppression, etc. available through drum card programming.) The stand-alone unit was massive. The ones that I used printed an oversize font, (60? characters per line?), and therefore could NOT line up the characters with the content. It was plug-board programmable for whatever positions, suppressions, etc. you wanted. For years I had on my wall one such plug-board that had been setup for convenient reading of COBOL programs, and was labelled "COBOL. Interpreter". I had it on the wall just for those who wouldn't believe that there existed a COBOL interpreter :-) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > is/was? > > Looks like a punch card sorter of some sort. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Mar 30 10:31:30 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Salvage yard sightings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990330103130.009da5d0@texas.net> Supposedly the latest disributions do support it (Slackware 3.5+). Try it! What do you have to lose? If it doesn't work, put M$ or OS2 back on it. At 07:26 PM 3/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I'd recommend against it. While a 486 makes a good Linux box, I'm not sure >>how well Linux supports PS/2 hardware. It used to be it didn't support MCA >>at all, but I think it does now. > >It's supposed to support all PS/2 hardware, but I couldn't boot a Model/70 >with a Slackware 3.4 boot disk. It couldn't find the hard drive. Maybe the >2.2 kernel does, but I'm not inclined to try it. I'd much rather play >around with Mk-Linux which runs on a Macintosh, which is much better >designed than a PS/2. Of course, I'm running it on a standard AT clone :) > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Mar 30 10:38:27 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990330103827.009e3d00@texas.net> Anyone have any idea what was/is the best bus design? I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What else should be on a bus besides: ADDRESS DATA RD/WR MEM/IO BUS REQ BUS ACK INT INT ACK WAIT HALT RESET CLOCK ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 30 11:43:43 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: DEC cables Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990330114343.2e0fe09c@intellistar.net> Hi, I have some DEC cables that I peicked up. Does anyone know what they're for? Marked "BC-022D-10" also "82351-000" DB-25F on both ends estimate 10 foot long Marked "BC22D-50" also "71065" DB-25F on both ends, estimate 50 foot long Marked "BC22D-25" also "71065" DB-25F on both ends, estimate 25 foot long,NIB Thanks, Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 30 12:50:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 EPROM programmer??? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990330125054.2b8f049c@intellistar.net> I have an Epson HX-20 with an EPROM programmer built on. See it at "http://www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\hx20.jpg". Does anyone know anything about this? The case for the EPROM programmer is made of the same material and is the same color as the Epson case and has the name "Motorola" cast into it. It's held on with a steel bracket underneath. Someone went to a lot of trouble to make this. There's also a ribbon cable (?) cconnector in the top corner. Any idea what it was used for? There are also "Motorola" marked EPROMs in the socket sin teh bottom of the HX-20. Any idea what this machine was used for? The batteries in it are dead and I haven't had time to get it working yet. Joe From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 30 10:44:48 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > #026 and #029 keypunches, nor the punch outputs of most computers, did > NOT print anything on the card. Ummm... beg to differ. The 029 keypunch that I currently have in my collection, and the 026 that I had some years back most assuredly DID have the capability to print along the top edge of the card. Now, I will grant that this feature can be switched off, or not selected as an installed option when the unit was orginally ordered... But the capability does exist in both units. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 30 11:04:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <199903300627.QAA31842@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> (message from Huw Davies on Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:27:25 +1000) References: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <199903300627.QAA31842@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <19990330170401.27339.qmail@brouhaha.com> > No, Baud and BPS are different. Baud is the number of signalling changes But they aren't different on ASR-33s, nor on the modems that were normally used on ASR-33s (Bell 103 equivalent). In common usage, the baud rate was generally equal to the BPS until the introduction of phase shift keying and quadrature amplitude modulation. For full-duplex use on the PSTN, this happened when the Vadic 3400 and Bell 212 were introduced. But there were earlier PSK modems for leased line use, such as the Bell 208. If someone tries to sell you a 9600 baud modem, you should whack them with a clue stick. :-) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 30 11:04:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990330103827.009e3d00@texas.net> Message-ID: Use the signals for ISA-8bit. Why boards are common and cheap to free. Generally the the ISA signal set are a good compromize and are easily generated by most micros. On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Anyone have any idea what was/is the best bus design? > > I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What > else should be on a bus besides: > > ADDRESS > DATA > RD/WR > MEM/IO > BUS REQ > BUS ACK > INT > INT ACK > WAIT > HALT > RESET > CLOCK > > > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > Slackware Mailing List: > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 30 11:06:41 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990329231135.00a42660@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:15:25 -0800) References: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <4.1.19990329231135.00a42660@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <19990330170641.27362.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Bzzzt! And thanks for playing. Actually this would be a reasonably good > trivia question. The term 'baud' is used to indicate signalling states, the > term 'bits' is used to represent transmitted data. The ASR-33 transmits 110 > signaling states (bauds) per second, out of every 11 one is a start bit, > eight are data bits, and two are stop bits, thus the number of bits per > second is actually 8/11 * 110 or 80 bits per second. When you use 8 bits to > represent a character this is 10 characters per second. Bzzzt! In asychronous communication, the rated speed of the channel in bits per second *includes* the start, stop, and parity bits. The ASR-33 did transmit (and receive) 110 bits per second, even though only 70 (not 80) were usable data. From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Tue Mar 30 11:11:03 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? Message-ID: <199903301711.JAA05292@pop2.ucdavis.edu> At 09:41 PM 3/29/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, John Lawson wrote: > >> Do you actually *own* this, or just know where one is? Tres Cool! > >I might very soon. Its a huge beast! Too adorable to ignore. Verily, it is a huge *beast*, and though adorable it should be ignored, IMHO. Unless it is in perfect working condition, you probably will not be able to restore it to working condition, especially if their is any appreciable wear and tear on the print unit or the giant cams that are inside. The 557 was a very unusual machine in the IBM tabulating line. I worked summers at college for IBM field engineering during the 60's and the 557 was notorius for needing constant maintenance. IBM kept incredibly detailed records of every maintenance action on a piece of punched card equipment, since practically all of them were rented at the time. The 557 was the hanger queen of all tab equipment, consistantly the most maintenance intensive of tab card machines. Open the covers and you will see why. There are two giant cams, about 3' across driving the internals. It takes so much mechanical energy to drive the print wheels, that the wheel cage is actually skewed inside the frame, so that if all the print wheels are printing the same character, they don't all fire at once. I have heard of field engineers taking off the covers of a 557 for the first time, thinking that the whole machine was trashed because the print wheel cage was torqued in relation to the machine frame. When the machine runs it feels like a washing machine out of balance and hops around the floor. -- Dean From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 30 11:45:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... Message-ID: <000e01be7ad5$21b6bf80$0100c0a8@fuj03> You've hit most of the important signals. One I'd add, however, is a data bus disable, and perhaps an address bus disable as well. This would allow a front panel or other bus mastering device to steal cycles under certain circumstances. What would you do with the HALT signal, and how would you implement it? There's some debate about how one should signal the beginning of a new bus cycle. This should be at the earliest moment at which addresses are stabile. If you have separate strobes for memory and I/O, then either of them could do it, or if you generate separate strobes for read and write, that could work as well. The question comes up, however, of how to generate the write strobe, which is often shorter than the read signal from the processor, if there is a separate read strobe at all. On a read, it's generally desirable to time the read strobe so the strobe at the processor goes away, signalling that the data has been sampled, before the memory or I/O device is disabled, making the data go away. Likewise, it's desirable to make the write strobe during processor write cycle go away before its data becomes invalid at the target. What's more, some peripherals don't like having data change once a write cycle begins, so it's necessary to have valid data before signalling a write. This is complicated by the fact that some processors initiate a write cycle before the data is valid, while others do not. Many schemes for generating these signals end up making the processor operate relatively slowly with respect to the memory bandwidth in order to satisfy these conditions. Circuits which latch the data or otherwise fiddle with the cycle length in order to avoid slowing the processor down will increase the parts count and complicate the timing, while those that accomplish this fit by using faster memories and peripherals will cost more due to the higher and not as effectively used bus bandwidth. If you'll start with the model you've suggested, consider the types of devices you anticipate attaching to the bus, and decide how each can be accomodated, you'll eventually settle on a good approach. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: Computer busses.... >Anyone have any idea what was/is the best bus design? > >I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What >else should be on a bus besides: > >ADDRESS >DATA >RD/WR >MEM/IO >BUS REQ >BUS ACK >INT >INT ACK >WAIT >HALT >RESET >CLOCK > > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Mar 30 11:46:09 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990330092332.010cb4b0@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Mar 30, 99 09:23:32 am Message-ID: <199903301746.JAA12731@saul10.u.washington.edu> > Has anyone come right out and told you to buy the stack of M100/M102 > and re-sell them? There is still an active market for them, here > if not in other forums. Yes. The problem is whether I'll be forced to get a bunch of other unrelated equipment as well (in which case I'll need to get rid of the other stuff and the whole effort will be less tempting). -- Derek From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Mar 30 06:47:50 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: References: <199903251555.KAA13395@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199903301746.MAA13051@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Mar 99 at 2:25, Doug Spence wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > > Would that Quebec company be Ogivar? > > > > That's the one. From the little I was able to find , they seemed quite > > innovative. > > OK, Larry, cough it up. Who is Ogivar and what did they achieve? As a > Quebecer I'd like to know all about them. Especially in case I run across > any of their hardware. :) > > [I can see it now: "La Regie d'Histoire d'Informatique Quebecois". Maybe > I'll propose it. :) :) :) ] > Took a look thru my files and couldn't find the results of my search A simple search on Ogivar should turn up some stuff. I think they are still in existence only under a different name. Based on his question I would suspect Arlen Michaels who's in Ottawa has more knowledge of Olivar. Another interesting company is Lanpar which was formed by a couple of Northern Telecom ex-employees. Lotus basicly stole their product and based 123 on their video processes. There was no contest on this. Lotus had obviously done it . The suit against Lotus however, was denied after 10 years of litigation, only on a technicality in the registration of their original patent. I had one of their terminals a while back but tossed it for lack of room. Now I regret it of course. Another beaver being gang-banged by the eagle ,donkey ,and elephant. After so many years by the British bulldog, why not. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Mar 30 06:47:49 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990329211909.01114e70@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199903301747.MAA13068@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Mar 99 at 21:48, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, James Willing wrote: > > > At 08:37 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > > > > > >Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter > > >is/was? > > > > ... and yes, if you had not guessed... I still have a manual on how to > > program these things! > > Cool. I especially liked the patch panel. I'd love to learn how to > program the thing. > > > (now, if I could just remember that trick that we used to teach a 402 > > tabulator how to multiply... B^} ) > > Are you implying these things had some general purpose computing > attributes? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > It's been a long time, but IIRC these were relatively simple to wire the plug -board. The info for the top line was based on the top 3 holes on the cards representing alpha-groups A-I , J-R, and S-Z respectively eg: a column with a 0 and a 9 would be an "A", a 2 and 5 a "W" etc. This was also how the sorters were used to sort alphabetically. First we'd sort into the 3 groups and then by letter. you became quite proficient at it - buff the cards, slap them into the feeder, sort 0to2, pull them , buff them, sort by letter, and they would magically come up in order. What you could do now in the length of time it took to set the column sort wheel. I always have problems diferentiating between the definitions used in reference to computing. These were used for processing data, just like the newest Pentiums. A calculator basically counts the tics. 2x4 is 4 counted twice. That is what math processors do unless they have tables like the above alphabetical groups to act on.Simply a more sophisticated version. I used a machine called a statistical sorter which kept track of the holes punched to indicate a medical disorder, region , industry etc. for that particular card and based on the numerical data issued a report for the Prov of Ont. that year. Other than it being easier and faster, I don't see such a big difference in modern applications These were not typewriters or calculators but sophisticated business tools in their own right. The card punch, interpreter, sorter, collator, tape-drives ,etc. have their present day eqiuivalents in keyboards, files, disk drives , merge programs, printers ,etc. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 30 12:07:33 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990330130131.009fcda0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:44 AM 3/30/99 -0800, James Willing said something like: >On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >> #026 and #029 keypunches, nor the punch outputs of most computers, did >> NOT print anything on the card. > >Ummm... beg to differ. The 029 keypunch that I currently have in my >collection, and the 026 that I had some years back most assuredly DID have >the capability to print along the top edge of the card. > >Now, I will grant that this feature can be switched off, or not selected >as an installed option when the unit was orginally ordered... But the >capability does exist in both units. I agree that is possible to print on the cards. This is going back to 1972/73 when I was in college but there definitely was printing provided by the 029 punches we had used. Somewhere I've still got several stacks of my programs I did for class. (I think I'm nearly down to the bottom of the pile in the attic of the old house we will have for sale soon. I think I spied them last Friday as I was digging. Man, what a lot of stuff I had stashed up there :) If there was known to be non-printing 029s and 026s, then this indeed was likely an option as Jim surmises. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 30 12:10:34 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary Message-ID: <199903301810.AA11882@world.std.com> >Great choice to start with! (Uhh, actually, I'm trying to get my own >11/34A running and this will open up our list colleagues' assistance for >benefit of both of us ;-) Thanks... I'm sure it will... >The 11/34A CPU backplane (slots 1-9) has to be a DD11-PK. The backplane does appear to be the correct one... >Does the ID label on the outside, right side panel of the system box say >1134A xx or is it BA11 xx? I'll have to check... >Can't help with the VT11. Sorry. Sounds quite cool though. It is... when I was in college (the first time around), I used to write programs for it under RT-11... I wrote a program for an ME grad student which displayed a four-bar linkage problem, allowing the student to examine the results of various lengths of the legs by actually moving them in real-time with the light pen... Another program I did graphed trajectories of objects given initial angle and velocity... it properly did clipping at the top of the screen if the graph went that far, and did automatic scaling... Finally, I developed a program which allowed design of logic circuits using the light pen to first drag parts from a library along the edge of the screen out to the breadboard field, then wired them, then could supply a clock and test what the circuit did... >Should have three cables connecting to the console panel: a two-wire >shielded cable going to the M9312 (P/N: 70-11413-3F), a four-wire twisted >cable going to the H765 PSU (P/N: 70-11992-0-0) and a 20 cond. flat cable >(P/N: 70-12214-2D) which goes to the M7859 Programmer's Console module. It looks like it has the right cables, but I'll have to check when I get home... Thanks for the info... >The FPU is M8267. (The FP11-A option) Turns out I have one in the box of parts... (see my list at the bottom of this post). >Cache board # M8268 (the KK11-A option) Found it too in the same box... >Important to find the over-the-top jumper boards which go between the >various modules and possibly dependent upon whether you have the FPU in >or out. I'm assuming you got a box with a rat's nest of cables and misc >parts. If so, dig for small PC boards with dual-row, 0.1" center >connectors. Part numbers on white paper labels are H8821 with dual 40-pin >connectors and (hopefully for addition of your planed FP option) the >H8822 with three 40-pin conns. I did find some familiar connectors for such things... I'll have to check them out when I get home and see if they are what I need... >If you do not have the 11/34A printsets and KK11-A Cache tech manual >please get back to me and I'll give you more P/N's and some details on >what goes where based on my system and 11/34A printsets. This can get >confusing with just simple, brief statements. Not for someone who has seen the stuff before... I'm not a guru with it, but I recognize what you're talking about... >I have not found an FP11-A tech manual and printset and Cache printset as >of yet (hint-hint anybody! :) I still have a box of printsets to go through as well... it may just have that in there... we may both luck out... >Two other important cables to root around for in the box, which go >between the M8266 and M7859, are two 10-conductor flat cables P/N >70-11411-1D. When the M8367 FPU board is plugged-in, they run between the >M8267 and the M7859 (this is where the docs are *real* handy) and a >over-the-top board connects the M8266 and M8267. More to checkout when I get home... >The board lineup in my machine is as follows (going from slot #1 to the >left) and the first five must be adhered to: > >#1 M8266, 11/34A Control Module (KD11-EA) >#2 M8265, 11/34A Data Path Module (KD11-EA) These two are in the machine... >#3 M8267, 11/34A Floating Point Processor Not yet, but soon... >#4 M9312 (slot A-B), Bootstrap/Terminator; M9301, but I have an M9312... >#4 M7859 (slot C-D-E-F), Programmer's Console I/F (KY11-LB) It's in there... >#5 M8268, 11/34A Cache (1kbyte) (KK11-A) Not yet... >The following can now be any MUD module . . . >#6 M7891-BC, 64KW MOS memory >#7 M7762, RL01/2 controller (RL11) >#8 G727A, buss grant jumper >#9 M9202, backplane jumper to next backplane . . . Haven't found the RL11 controller yet... I do have the bus grant jumpers, and a terminator in the main backplane. The VT11 backplane wasn't even connected... but then again, it doesn't have a power harness... >For you Megan, the first three slots shall be M8266, M8265 and M8267 with >the H8821 over-the-top jumper between the 8265 and 8267. So, the H8821 is >the hot item to find to get your FPU lit up. I don't think I saw the over-the-top connector in the machine, but I think I saw one in the random parts box... >Incidentally, my system box has several of the module numbers printed on >the slot number label strip going across the top of the backside of the >slot cage. Yours may if it is indeed an 11/34A box instead of a generic >BA11-K. Yep, it has that strip... >Oh, I am salivating at the RUX50 controller! :) Can you clone that >module? Sorry... :-) Okay... here is the list of what I have found (so far) in my collection of UNIBUS related parts... DD11-CK 4 slot hex backplane DD11-DK 9 slot hex backplane DD11-B 4 slot hex backplane (comm backplane?) G109C part of memory option... don't know which yet G114 (with H217C and G235) G231 part of memory option... don't know which yet G235 (with H217C and G114) G651 (with H221A) H114 (with G114 and G235) 2 H214 8 Kw 16-bit stack used in MM11-L H215 8 Kw 18-bit stack (parity) used in MM11-LP H221A 8 Kw 18-bit stack (plugs into G651) 4 M3105 DHU11 - 16-line async mux 3 M5904 RH11 Massbus controll transceiver 2 M5922 RM03 transceiver port A 2 M5923 RM03 transceiver port B M7013 ??? M7014 ??? M7093 FP11-F 11/44 Floating point module M7097 KK11-B 11/44 4 KWord cache module 2 M7228 KW11-P Programmable real-time clock 2 M7260 KD11-B 11/05,10 Data paths 2 M7261 KD11-B 11/05,10 Control logic M7341 ??? M7521 DELUA M7522 RUX50 3 M7547 TUK50 M7684 RK05 control sequencer M7685 RK05? M7686 RK05? 2 M7792 DEUNA port module (1/2) 2 M7793 DEUNA link module (2/2) 3 M7800 DL11 M7819 DZ11-A 8-line async mux 3 M7856 DL11-W SLU and real-time clock M7859 KY11-LB 11/34a programmers console interface M7860 DR11-C parallel I/O 3 M7891 MS11 (I don't know which variants yet) M7892 TU60 Cassette interface M7893 DRS11 M7895 DSS11 M8203 (with M8207) DMP11 M8206 (with M8207) DMC11 M8207 (one with M8203, one with M8206) DMC11/DMP11/DMR11? M8256 RX211 RX02 floppy disk interface M8265 KD11-EA 11/34a data paths module M8266 KD11-EA 11/34a control module M8267 FP11-A 11/34a floating point processor M8268 KK11-A 11/34 cache module M8293 16K UNIBUS timing 2 M8398 DMZ32 24-line async interface M873 BM873 bootstrap/loader 4 M9202 UNIBUS backplane jumper M9312 Boot/terminator M9970 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Mar 30 12:23:59 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: <199903301711.JAA05292@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Dean Billing wrote: > At 09:41 PM 3/29/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: > > > >I might very soon. Its a huge beast! Too adorable to ignore. > > Verily, it is a huge *beast*, and though adorable it should be ignored, IMHO. Pfaph! The quirkier the better! Unless we are endorsing revisionist history. > Unless it is in perfect working condition, you probably will not be able to > restore it to working condition, especially if their is any appreciable wear > and tear on the print unit or the giant cams that are inside. Anything can be restored, as long as you reach it before the scrappers! A bit of time, talent, elbow grease, etc... And I doubt we are talking about trying to put any of these units back into 'production' use... Just my $0.02 (w/o corrections for inflation, stock splits, market insanity, etc...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 30 12:34:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: <199903301711.JAA05292@pop2.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Dean Billing wrote: > At 09:41 PM 3/29/99 -0800, you wrote: > >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > > >> Do you actually *own* this, or just know where one is? Tres Cool! > > > >I might very soon. Its a huge beast! Too adorable to ignore. > > Verily, it is a huge *beast*, and though adorable it should be ignored, IMHO. <...> > relation to the machine frame. When the machine runs it feels like a > washing machine out of balance and hops around the floor. If you were trying to dissuade me from adopting this guy then that last sentence had the absolute OPPOSITE effect. I'm taking this puppy home! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Mar 30 12:48:34 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... In-Reply-To: <000e01be7ad5$21b6bf80$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990330124834.009edb80@texas.net> >You've hit most of the important signals. One I'd add, however, is a data >bus disable, and perhaps an address bus disable as well. This would allow a >front panel or other bus mastering device to steal cycles under certain >circumstances. Why wouldn't BUS REQUEST work? >What would you do with the HALT signal, and how would you implement it? WAIT sould act as a "pause and hold the bus in it's current condition" signal. Halt should mean "Stop what you are doing, release the control of the bus and wait until the HALT signal is removed". IMHO >There's some debate about how one should signal the beginning of a new bus >cycle. This should be at the earliest moment at which addresses are >stable. I guess the RD/WR signals should be seperate and only applied AFTER all signals on the bus are stable. ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 30 12:47:14 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary In-Reply-To: <199903301810.AA11882@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990330132017.00a1f920@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:10 PM 3/30/99 -0500, Megan said something like: > >>Great choice to start with! (Uhh, actually, I'm trying to get my own >>11/34A running and this will open up our list colleagues' assistance for >>benefit of both of us ;-) > >Thanks... I'm sure it will... -- snip a bunch, because we know what we wrote :) -- >>I have not found an FP11-A tech manual and printset and Cache printset as >>of yet (hint-hint anybody! :) > >I still have a box of printsets to go through as well... it may just >have that in there... we may both luck out... I forgot to mention this, and it's important if indeed you do not have the 11/34A assembly printset: the 20-conductor flat ribbon cable polarity is swapped around when plugged into the prog. console panel. The pin one/blue stripe side of the ribbon cable is *not* connected to the board connector pin one. It's correct when plugged into the M7859. I'm assuming cables are not now connected between the panel board and the box. If they are still conn. then you'll see what I mean. (Why did DEC do this? Was it because of a mistake which was not considered important to fix or was it because of board artwork considerations to make mfg simpler/cheaper?? Doesn't seem like something DEC would let by.) -- snip -- >>If you do not have the 11/34A printsets and KK11-A Cache tech manual >>please get back to me and I'll give you more P/N's and some details on >>what goes where based on my system and 11/34A printsets. This can get >>confusing with just simple, brief statements. > >Not for someone who has seen the stuff before... I'm not a guru with >it, but I recognize what you're talking about... I'm much less of a guru than anybody as I've never had my hands on *real* PDP-11 hdwr until last summer/fall. I'm actually in the learning mode but have done enough fiddling and have about half the resources I need to be sort of maybe a little knowledgeable. (Is that vague enough?? :) That'll be proved when I start working with the list for help on getting my own 11/34A system running. -- snip -- > > >>#4 M9312 (slot A-B), Bootstrap/Terminator; > >M9301, but I have an M9312... What boot ROM numbers have you? Check URL http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware /1144.boot.roms down towards the bottom for the 9312 boot ROM list. (Really handy Tim!!! Thanks!!) -- snip -- >>Incidentally, my system box has several of the module numbers printed on >>the slot number label strip going across the top of the backside of the >>slot cage. Yours may if it is indeed an 11/34A box instead of a generic >>BA11-K. > >Yep, it has that strip... Hmm, this may cinch it that the box is an 11/34A BA11. So, you likely have a DD11-PK CPU BP. Let me know what tech mans and printsets you need. Then I'll see what I can do to copy missing ones for you if indeed I have them. However, I lack several myself or have apparently too-early versions so may not completly fill-in your needs. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Mar 30 12:52:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: AES 7100 In-Reply-To: <199903301746.MAA13051@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Another interesting company is Lanpar which was formed by a couple of Northern > Telecom ex-employees. Lotus basicly stole their product and based 123 on > their video processes. > There was no contest on this. Lotus had obviously done it . The suit against > Lotus however, was denied after 10 years of litigation, only on a > technicality in the registration of their original patent. I had one of their > terminals a while back but tossed it for lack of room. Now I regret it of > course. > Another beaver being gang-banged by the eagle ,donkey ,and elephant. > After so many years by the British bulldog, why not. Sure, but didn't Lanpar steal their idea from Visicorp anyway? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99] From bwit at ticnet.com Tue Mar 30 13:24:35 1999 From: bwit at ticnet.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990330132435.007b8a40@pop3.ticnet.com> At 08:34 AM 3/30/99 -0800, you wrote: >#026 and #029 keypunches, nor the punch outputs of most computers, did >NOT print anything on the card. There also existed interpreters, both as >hefty stand-alone, and in #029 housings, that would READ the punches on >the card and print the info on the card, so that it would be readable by >lusers who didn't know how to read punches. >The #029 version printed 80 columns, aligned with the punches (although >there was a LITTLE bit of suppression, etc. available through drum card >programming.) All of the 029 units I've worked with had builtin print units and the print was exactly lined up with the punched column. The print could be disabled via a drum card as you mention but I have never seen the stand alone units you are talking about. Regards, Bob From g at kurico.com Tue Mar 30 13:35:50 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: id this Xerox Message-ID: Ran across a Xerox today but couldn't find any identifying labels. It's a desk side sized (1' wide x 2' high x 3' deep), has a single 8" floppy above a control panel with a bottom hinged door. On the back, the connectors are on a separate little platform type thingy, on one side it has a printer, transceiver, and a db25 labeled LEUP. On the other side it had a db25 labeled display, a keyboard, and a "rigid disk" connector (and a plug that looks like it powers the drive). Anyone know what this beast is? TIA George From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 30 13:58:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... Message-ID: <000e01be7ae7$bab969a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Please see comments imbedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Computer busses.... >>You've hit most of the important signals. One I'd add, however, is a data >>bus disable, and perhaps an address bus disable as well. This would allow a >>front panel or other bus mastering device to steal cycles under certain >>circumstances. > >Why wouldn't BUS REQUEST work? > It would only work if BUS REQUEST were not a request for negotiation. If you do have a bus negotiation handshake, then it might not work simply to asser BUS REQUEST because you may want to "jam" data in to certain locations while the processor is doing most of the work. CPU places addresses on the bus, you, by means of your front panel, want to put different data there. You float his data bus, and drive it yourself while he creates the strobes in his normal timing. Likewise, you might want to redirect his data flow, hence you float his address bus, driving it yourself, while the CPU generates normally timed transaction control signals. It's an obscure point but I've seen it done for whatever reason on several occasions. > >>What would you do with the HALT signal, and how would you implement it? > >WAIT sould act as a "pause and hold the bus in it's current condition" >signal. Halt should mean "Stop what you are doing, release the control of >the bus and wait until the HALT signal is removed". IMHO > Now this one seems like it could be accomplished with the BUS REQUEST signal. I suppose it's arguable, but if you want control of the bus, and want the processor to more or less disconnect himself from it, it would require a signal to each processor/master on the bus. If the FP wants to control the bus, it doesn't have to HALT the processor does it? It just needs to seize the bus. Whether that stops the processor(s) would depend on what's on the CPU card. It depends, of course, on whether you have multiple master candidates on the bus. If not, it's moot, but if so, then you might not want to halt them, but merely seize the bus for a moment. > >>There's some debate about how one should signal the beginning of a new bus >>cycle. This should be at the earliest moment at which addresses are stabile. > >I guess the RD/WR signals should be seperate and only applied AFTER all >signals on the bus are stable. > As I mentioned before, it's quite critical to the operation of the bus, how you time the WRITE signal. Many processors following the MOTOROLA model, i.e. with a regular 2-phase clock, with one clock per bus cycle, tell you when the cycle begins by asserting the "E" clock in the MOT case. If R/W is true at the beginning, it's a read cycle, else R/W must be low, meaning it's a write. Most of the older processors of this sort assert the WRITE state, i.e. R/W LOW quite some time before the E clock (or phase 2) becomes true. Nevertheless, the data is only held valid for a minimal time after the falling edge of E, hence some steps have to be taken to hold the data for some time after end of E so that the data will persist beyond the rising edge of the nWR signal. On a 6800 or 6502, this is quite straightforward. The CPU is fed a single phase clock, sometimes called phase 0. It produces (in the case of the 6502) a pair of non-overlapping complementary clocks, phase 1 and phase 2. The 6800 required you use a clock generator to produce those and feed them to the CPU. You could still gate them with R/W to create nRd and nWr signals, but the results were slightly different. More recent processors don't give you the two clocks, so you don't have as many options. Some give you both an address strobe and a data strobe, from which you can derive appropriately timed nRD and nWR strobes. These often are needlessly short, however, leaving valuable bus bandwidth unused. I think a less conservative though still correct approach would be to limit your statement to signals other than data. Most peripherals require only that the data be stabile on the trailing edge of the write command. It's likewise with memories, so I think that's a safe approach. There are exceptions, though, but I hope they're dead forever. Dick > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Mar 30 13:56:27 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: <199903301746.JAA12731@saul10.u.washington.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19990330092332.010cb4b0@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Mar 30, 99 09:23:32 am Message-ID: >> Has anyone come right out and told you to buy the stack of M100/M102 >> and re-sell them? There is still an active market for them, here >> if not in other forums. > >Yes. The problem is whether I'll be forced to get a bunch of other >unrelated equipment as well (in which case I'll need to get rid of the other >stuff and the whole effort will be less tempting). Rent a truck and keep your mind focused on the educational value the experience will have. Also you might be able to cut a side deal with another bidder to take the stuff you don't want at some reduced price. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 30 12:56:06 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" "Re: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter??" (Mar 30, 8:34) References: Message-ID: <9903301956.ZM6676@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30, 8:34, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Subject: Re: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? > #026 and #029 keypunches, nor the punch outputs of most computers, did > NOT print anything on the card. We had lots of 026 and 029 punches at Edinburgh University when I was there, and they all *did* print on the top edge. I wish I still had some of those cards; alas I only have a few empty steel boxes. Come to that, I wish I had one of the punches :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Mar 30 14:28:56 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: FS: Tandy specific printer cables Message-ID: <37013407.160EE9D7@bigfoot.com> I have 4 Tandy printer cables to sell, individually or as a lot. 1) 12 ft heavy guage Tandy card edge female to Centronics 36 male $10 plus ship 2) 6 ft heavy guage Tandy card edge female to Centronics 36 male $7.50 plus ship 3) 6 ft flat ribbon Tandy card edge female to Centronics 36 male $5.00 plus ship 4) 6 ft ribbon Tandy header to Centronics 36 male, Tandy number 2x-1409 for PORTABLES, in package $7.50 plus ship ALL ABOVE for $30.00 but will ship FREE. Shipping will most likely fall into the $3.20 priority category for USPS. USA and APO/FPO only. Contact me by direct email From a2k at one.net Tue Mar 30 14:33:51 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM "Baby" 36 Message-ID: Hello, I'm cleaning out the basement making room for some new stuff... I have an IBM PC/36 (aka Baby 36) Model 5364 with floppy drive and one hard drive (I can get the other drive but it needs to be wiped first). Removed from operation, still works, needs controller card for console machine. Uses twin-axe terminals. I cleaned it out when I got it (took 5 minutes for the dust to clear from the air in my workroom!) Anybody interested in it? If not, I'd be interested in finding an OS for it and the controller card to put it back in service. Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp. "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." -- DECWARS ____________________________________________________________________ | Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret | | KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School | | a2k@one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. | |jlennon@nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.| -------------------------------------------------------------------- From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Mar 30 17:44:01 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: IBM 4869 / TRS-80 external box???? Message-ID: <01be7b07$30488880$9b9ba6d1@the-general> Anyone have a spare IBM 4869 floppy drive? Power supply died in mine. I'm also looking for an external floppy from a TRS-80 (w/PS). Doesn't need to have a drive. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Mar 30 17:03:30 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable? In-Reply-To: References: <199903301746.JAA12731@saul10.u.washington.edu> <3.0.5.32.19990330092332.010cb4b0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990330170330.2f57871e@intellistar.net> At 11:56 AM 3/30/99 -0800, you wrote: >>> Has anyone come right out and told you to buy the stack of M100/M102 >>> and re-sell them? There is still an active market for them, here >>> if not in other forums. >> >>Yes. The problem is whether I'll be forced to get a bunch of other >>unrelated equipment as well (in which case I'll need to get rid of the other >>stuff and the whole effort will be less tempting). > >Rent a truck and keep your mind focused on the educational value the >experience will have. Yeah. And the exercise! Also you might be able to cut a side deal with >another bidder to take the stuff you don't want at some reduced price. Or just post it here. Someone will want it. Joe > > > From tiger at silcom.com Tue Mar 30 14:57:09 1999 From: tiger at silcom.com (Tiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:28 2005 Subject: Moving sale - many old books, computer hardware & software, magazines, etc. Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990330125709.00793b80@silcom.com> Hello everyone. I have a lot of old computer hardware, software, books, and magazines which I'd like to sell before I move long distance in about a month. Over the last few months I've posted on Usenet and tried eBay with only moderate success. With moving day approaching and too few sales lately to justify the time, I'm about to give up and donate the majority of these items to the local charities who are fortunately willing to take most of my stuff. This means that any sales need to be resolved within a couple weeks. As this is the classical computer list I hope some people here might have interest in this type of old computer stuff. The majority of it is from the 1980s. The computers I have the most stuff to the least stuff for sale are: - IBM compatible - Commodore 64/128 - Apple II series/IIGS - Amiga - Atari 8-bit - Macintosh - TI-99/4A Very briefly I have: - BOOKS - a couple hundred computer books, programming books, electronic data books, and technical books (a lot of reference books are for Apple and Amiga, such as the Addision-Wesley series). Also a few math and physics textbooks. - SOFTWARE MANUALS - a couple hundred manuals without the disks for things like Borland Turbo products, Microsoft C/C++, Visual Basic, DBase, Autocad, etc. - HARDWARE - Commodore 128 computers, disk drives, many printers for Commodore specific and IBM compatibles, old monitors, cassette units, etc. - SOFTWARE - a LOT of software for the first 4 computers in my list above. For IBM I have mostly old applications, for Commodore mostly games, and for Apple & Amiga mostly applications and development software (APW, Merlin, Manx C, etc). There's a misc handful for the other 3. - MAGAZINES - a variety of magazines, mostly for IBM and Apple. PC Tech Journal, Nibble, Video magazine, etc. I could be convinced to dump some ancient PC Magazines and Compute's for the right price, but I was planning to keep those (unless I'm floored by the movers' estimates this week). - LASERDISCS - a handful of older titles, mostly at $9 each. - GAME MANUALS - I have almost 50 computer game manuals without disks. I was asking $9 for all of them, but I'd just throw them in for someone who's buying a lot. Please look at my lists and feel free to ignore the prices and make reasonable offers. My main criteria are I have to get enough money to make the transaction worth the effort and the amount needs to be reasonably close to what I think my charitable deduction will be worth. If you can come by Santa Barbara, California, and pick up a lot of stuff in person we'll work out a really good deal. Please send email to tiger@silcom.com if you're interested in anything. All of my lists can be found at: http://www.silcom.com/~tiger Thank you for your time. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 11:47:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <37172f98.3797864981@insight> from "Bill Richman" at Mar 30, 99 02:06:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/7037b3fd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 11:49:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Decwriter II In-Reply-To: <00bf01be7a52$4b8b9b60$f17d38cb@netcafe> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Mar 30, 99 11:39:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/56b0505b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 11:50:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <199903300209.AA27118@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 29, 99 09:09:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/724bddde/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 12:01:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <002701be7a53$eaba3a60$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 29, 99 07:20:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/366c63b1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 12:06:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990329183307.00912df0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Mar 29, 99 06:33:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/7c9233f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 11:42:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990329181845.08bf2f26@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Mar 29, 99 06:18:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/e98ef0f9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 12:09:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Strange DEC box In-Reply-To: from "Karl Maftoum" at Mar 30, 99 01:10:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 768 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/1e3833f2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 12:12:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Data Format? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Mar 29, 99 09:27:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 252 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/709cecbd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 12:17:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Post-move diary In-Reply-To: <199903300609.AA06472@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 30, 99 01:09:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/0bc1733f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 12:31:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990330082607.00a2e5b0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Mar 30, 99 10:23:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/4e32de5a/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 30 15:40:19 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199903302140.NAA02860@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The problem with the 8080 is that it always started executing at location > 0 after a reset. So on the Intellec MCS8i, they put _RAM_ at location 0 > (which could, of course be loaded from the hardware frontpanel). Then you > put a jump instruction at location 0, hit reset and started the CPU. > > So, of course, a lot of 8080 applications/OSes assumed RAM at location 0. > So on a machine without a frontpanel, you had to have some way of mapping > some kind of 'ROM' into the first 3 locations that would get the CPU to > jump to the real ROM at the top of memory. And then map out the 'ROM' and > replace it with RAM. > > I said 'ROM' because on a number of machines, it was just a few TTL chips > that gated C3, lobyte, hibyte onto the data bus on the first 3 fetches > after reset. Hi It isn't too hard to rig the processor to have the ROM doubled into the low address locations during the first few instructions. I've also rigged up several processors to boot from a ROM that would copy themselves into RAM at the same address and then switch out the ROM to be running completely from RAM and all of its flexability. Booting from any fixed location is a pain in a larger processor but needed for simple controller applications. I've always felt that it would be better for the reset to work just like an interrupt that had some external hardware to supply the boot address. On larger systems, the additional hardware is minimum and there is a lot of added flexability. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 30 15:47:16 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > #026 and #029 keypunches, nor the punch outputs of most computers, did > NOT print anything on the card. OOPS! WRONG! #026 and #029 keypunches could, and by default did, print what they punched. The punch output of most computers, nor most of the stand-alone card duplicators, did not. The unique *RARE* SPECIAL model in the #029 series was the one that could "interpret" (print) the contents of cards that it was READING, not punching. It was especially useful, because it had an 80 column printhead, whereas the stand-alone interptreter was a 60 column unit. Sorry about the wrong info. It's been less than 30 years - must be coming down with some of that alzh^h^h^h^h "old-timer's disease" I have 2 keypunch drums that I don't seem to use much any more. Does anybody need one? (I'm keeping one, just in case.) From max82 at surfree.com Tue Mar 30 15:56:49 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Thrift store loot, some left for others Message-ID: Hi, today was a good day at Amvets on Brighton Ave. in Allston/Brighton, MA. I picked up 6 books on old computers, all of which are available is someone wants them: Minicomputer Systems: Organization, Programming, and Applications (PDP-11) This book is a russian translation of the above title, includes very in-depth explanation of PDP-11 (now I need one) CODASYL: Data Description Language Committee Ditto. Could someone tell me what CODASYL is, though? This book is far too boring for me to figure it out myself... Minicomputers in Data Processing and Simulation In English for a change, has in-depth explanation of computers and their components (including PDP-8, -11, HP and Varian machines) Fortran 77 In Russian Advanced Programming Techniques: A second course in programming using Fortran In Russian Assembly Language Programming In Russian, for a Russian mini or mainframe (EC-EVM) Here is what is still at the store: Osborne-1 with modem in perfect physical condition DEC Letterwriter 100 in perfect physical condition Advanced-looking book: Digital Signal Processing Lots of modern Borland and Microsoft programmer's manuals --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 30 16:14:49 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: #029 variants (was: IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In addition to the rare "Interpreter punch", there was also a quite a bit less rare variant, the "Verifier". It would READ a card as the operator typed. If the card and keyboard didn't match, (IIRC after a couple of tries) it would put a notch in the top of the card at the point of discrepancy. If everything matched, it would put a notch in the side of the card, as testimony to it having been checked. How many remember how service bureaus would CHEAT? Who is collecting EAM equipment? From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 30 15:55:42 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Post-move diary Message-ID: <199903302155.AA08298@world.std.com> From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 30 16:01:55 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary Message-ID: <199903302201.AA12588@world.std.com> >I believe you can put an MUD or SPC card in slot 5 if you don't have the >cache. I can't remember what happens if you don't have the FPU - either >slot 3 is also an SPC slot (I think that's the case) or you move >everything left one slot (Which I think is not the case). I just realized that one of the connectors I did find was one which appeared to connect over-the-top with two boards. The other one I found has three connectors, and the spacing between 1 and 2 is different from that between 2 and 3... I presume it is because 1 and 2 connect to the CPU and FPU in slots 2 and 3, and the third needs extra space to connect to the Cache in slot 5... I may just have what I need to get that working... First step will be to remove everything from the backplane and vacuum it out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 30 16:38:03 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Rebirth of IMSAI Message-ID: <001201be7afd$f99ec8c0$0100c0a8@fuj03> It was always somewhat of a nuissance dealing with the Z-80 because of the way it presented its interrupt acknowledge, which was a combined I/O and M1 cycle, as long as the I/O cycle, but with M1. That meant, in my case, that I had to insert a wait state in the M1 cycle in order to avoid having to use much faster RAM, since the M1 signal appeared before either the IORQ or the MEMRQ signals. By either synchronizing the resulting signal with the clock, thereby eliminating the glitch, or by waiting for either of these two steering signals, the resulting cycle was too short. By that I mean that it was almost an entire clock period shorter than the normal M1 cycle would have been, had I been able to ignore the IACK protocol in the Z-80 peripheral devices. I was stuck with them as a result of decisions already made. This same protocol made it unwise to try to use memory mapped I/O, since the cycle length of an I/O cycle differed from that of a memory cycle. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> >One of the problems with the S100 bus is that it is _very_ dependant on >> >the 8080 signals. Even using a Z80 is a bit of work - things like PINTE >> >(which indicates if interrupts are enabled) and SSTACK (address lines >> >contain the value of the stack pointer) don't exist as external signals >> >on the Z80. >> > >> Of course if you wire your own Z-80, you can ignore most of the weird >> signals if you are using static ram. Just use a memory write signal for >> writes, and another to gate read data onto the buss. > >True, until you find you have some strange (commercial) card that depends >on one of these signals for some strange reason. I know that many >commercial Z80 CPU boards did have extra logic at least for PINTE. > >> There is nothing in the Z-80, etc. to prevent you from using memory mapped > >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 17:06:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... In-Reply-To: <000e01be7ae7$bab969a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 30, 99 12:58:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1982 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990331/58aa8949/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 16:46:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 EPROM programmer??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990330125054.2b8f049c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 30, 99 12:50:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/2a2bd5bd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 16:50:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: Computer busses.... In-Reply-To: <000e01be7ad5$21b6bf80$0100c0a8@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 30, 99 10:45:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 657 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990330/dc48d04c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 30 17:00:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: id this Xerox In-Reply-To: from "George Currie" at Mar 30, 99 01:35:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990331/1801ecd8/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 30 17:41:13 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:42:29 2005 Subject: followup Message-ID: <199903302341.AA10959@world.std.com>