From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 1 00:24:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:31 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, LordTyran wrote: > I have quite a collection of NES stuff (carts and consoles) that I've > rescued from trash, garage sales, etc. that has been sitting in my > basement for a few years. Trying to run one of the games produces odd > output (i.e. lines down it display, not booting entirely) which I know is > due to dirty contacts. What's the best way to clean these? Alchohol on a > swab? Freon? (I have a friend that bought out a very large supply of it > just before it became illegal to sell (i.e.: 100+ bottles for his > reel-to-reel tape recorders) I often find NES carthridge port cleaners in thrift stores. Perhaps you might be as lucky. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sun Aug 1 00:32:50 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:32 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My favorite is MG Chemicals' "Super Contact Cleaner" (poly phenyl ether). Can get a little messy, but cleans well and is supposed to be safe for all kinds of components (sliders, pots, etc). Cheers, Aaron On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, LordTyran wrote: > Hello, time for the yearly nostalgia. > > I have quite a collection of NES stuff (carts and consoles) that I've > rescued from trash, garage sales, etc. that has been sitting in my > basement for a few years. Trying to run one of the games produces odd > output (i.e. lines down it display, not booting entirely) which I know is > due to dirty contacts. What's the best way to clean these? Alchohol on a > swab? Freon? (I have a friend that bought out a very large supply of it > just before it became illegal to sell (i.e.: 100+ bottles for his > reel-to-reel tape recorders) > > Kevin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" > > "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." > > -- BOFH #3 > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 1 00:10:44 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:32 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning References: Message-ID: <37A3D6D3.E8839926@bigfoot.com> The regular Nintendos are known for bad connections by nintendo themselves and they used to send you a connector assembly free if ou called the 800 number on the unit and gave them the serial number. It's still worth a try and if they don't then MCM Electronics carries them for about $7 per connector. I've tried to clean them and even resping them and never gotten one to connect properly as the connector was poorly made. I've tried contact cleaner, typewriter eraser, sandpaper, steel wool, and all the other tricks of the trade to no avail. LordTyran wrote: > Hello, time for the yearly nostalgia. > > I have quite a collection of NES stuff (carts and consoles) that I've > rescued from trash, garage sales, etc. that has been sitting in my > basement for a few years. Trying to run one of the games produces odd > output (i.e. lines down it display, not booting entirely) which I know is > due to dirty contacts. What's the best way to clean these? Alchohol on a > swab? Freon? (I have a friend that bought out a very large supply of it > just before it became illegal to sell (i.e.: 100+ bottles for his > reel-to-reel tape recorders) > > Kevin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" > > "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." > > -- BOFH #3 From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Aug 1 04:14:52 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: OT: Power Supply voltage for Dayna Etherprint-T plus? In-Reply-To: References: <199907310702.AAA10250@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >All, > My apologies. Dayna's web site says "Farewell", and the intel site >to which it points gave it a good try but didn't answer the question. I >recently got a Dayna Etherprint-T Plus but not the power supply for it and >i have no idea what voltage or current it needs. I'm pretty sure the unit >is later than 1989 but if anybody has one and could check out the power >supply to see what it says and email me off-list, I'd appreciate it very >much. Thanks! > - Mark Here is a snip from a mac list I am on; I've used the EtherPrint for about a year now with the 9V power supply and it has worked without a hitch (at least as far as the PS is concerned). Internally, the EtherPrint has a standard +5V regulator (7805 or equivalent) connected to the external power supply. A 9V power supply will power this with no problem. Anything more is just making more heat inside the EtherPrint. Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting clarkm@pacbell.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 11:58:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Jul 31, 99 10:47:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990801/0594e106/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 1 14:47:08 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning References: Message-ID: <37A4A43C.66BF5C20@bigfoot.com> Pumice powder on a soft rag with a touch of spit or water works good for those really green contacts but only with light pressure. It's harsh enough to take off the gunk but not too harsh that it takes the copper of the backing board, unless you over work it. used it for years on military brass, never hurt a thing. Brasso is essentially the same but has an oil residue left to prevent oxidation and it tends to make it just as bad as when it was dirty. Tony Duell wrote: > > I have quite a collection of NES stuff (carts and consoles) that I've > > rescued from trash, garage sales, etc. that has been sitting in my > > basement for a few years. Trying to run one of the games produces odd > > output (i.e. lines down it display, not booting entirely) which I know is > > due to dirty contacts. What's the best way to clean these? Alchohol on a > > swab? Freon? (I have a friend that bought out a very large supply of it > > I normally start with isopropyl alcohol (propan-2-ol) on a suitable > applicator (cotton bud, paper, whatever). This cleans most contacts, and > doesn't attack msot plastics (although do try it on the outside of the > connector first - you don't want the whole thing to dissolve ;-)). > > If it's a card edge on a PCB, it normally helps to take the cartridge (or > whatever) apart for better access. > > Don't use (harsh) abrasives (a pencil eraser is probably OK). You don't > want to remove plating from the connectors. > > -tony From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Aug 1 14:59:43 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question Message-ID: At the SoCal TRW swapmeet yesterday, I couldn't resist buying an Espson HX20, in it's brown plastic Epson carrying case, which included a couple of microcassettes. It powers on ok and basically seems to work, giving: CRTL/@ Initialize 1 MONITOR 2 BASIC 3 SkiWriter (TM) on the display; pressing 'MENU' or 'BREAK' restores the display, however choosing Basic or SkiWriter from the menu traps to: _ _ Trap! A=00 B=02 X=00FF C=D0 S=04AA P=00FF [Actually B=02 for Basic and 03 for SkiWriter.] Five ROMS are mounted, four for Basic and one for Ski. The dipswitch SW6 is 1,2,3=ON 4=OFF. That's all I know about it so far. I picked this up because it's a 'nostalgia' machine for me... I first saw one in the wretched computer store I worked at in the early 80's and couldn't afford it then. Later I did buy and use an older Epson Equity II (which I still have BTW). Any suggestions on how to make this little rig smarter? Cheers John. PS: The TRW Swap was great fun... Marvin, his friend Gyuari (from Hungary), Aaron Finney, and Dave Dameron stopped by... Paul Passmore showed up and we all looked for Mike Ford but he was in 'stealth' mode and eluded us. Marvin scored some cool vintage 8-bitters and I got some Real Old software and Games from a cow-orker that I need to sort out and offer to The List. Oh yeah... I bought a forlorn AT&T 3B2 700 in unknown shape, although the guy said it came out of service working fine.. When I get a Round Tuit, I'll probably have questions about the pinouts of the USOC jacks.. but for now on the shelf it goes... and it's *heavy*. From dogas at leading.net Sun Aug 1 16:19:41 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: possibly need a systems pickup in Berkly, CA Message-ID: <01bedc63$914f02e0$ecc962cf@devlaptop> Anyone near there and willing to pick up a few systems (three Heathkit H-89's ) and pack and ship??? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Sun Aug 1 16:25:02 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: d'oh! that's Berkeley, of course... Message-ID: <01bedc64$5117b0e0$ecc962cf@devlaptop> - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 17:26:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Aug 1, 99 12:59:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 819 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990801/41795a05/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Aug 1 19:47:17 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > At the SoCal TRW swapmeet yesterday, I couldn't resist buying an > > Espson HX20, in it's brown plastic Epson carrying case, which > > included a couple of microcassettes. snip > [...] > > > Silly question. Have you tried the Ctrl-@ key combination? That's a cold > reset that clears all RAM. If certain tables in RAM are corrupted, you > will get a Trap on entering BASIC (and maybe skiwriter - I've not got > that). Worth trying... Wooo Hoooo!!! Well... that's *exactly* what it wanted... I have no doc and no experience with this machine... but now Basic and SkiWriter sign on... I will have to dig up some info to play further.. Thanks again Doctor Tony! Cheers John From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 2 00:46:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning In-Reply-To: <37A4A43C.66BF5C20@bigfoot.com> References: Message-ID: >Pumice powder on a soft rag with a touch of spit or water works good for those Doesn't anybody else still use Cramolin? I think I still have both a red and a blue can (one cleans, one preserves ?). From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 2 00:50:37 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? In-Reply-To: <37A4A43C.66BF5C20@bigfoot.com> References: Message-ID: What is a RL02K-DC? One person suspected it might be some kind of test cartridge, so I want to get a group opinion. BTW three people inquired about it, so its safe to say its claimed, I just want to know what it is so it goes to a person who can use it. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Aug 2 02:42:05 1999 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: RT-11/RSX-11/RSTS freeware CD-ROM Message-ID: [snip -- deteled the original message to save bandwidth] Hello Tim. Count me in for the RT11 and the RSX CD-ROM. For RSX, I think as you stated, flavor 2C is the best option as I do not have a modern RSX version running on my 11/35. When the number of CD's to be burnt is clear I guess we all on the List will hear how to reward your effort ($$$). Happy PDP-ing, Henk Gooijen Nederweert-Eind Netherlands gooi@oce.nl From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Aug 2 03:38:52 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All of my "Digital" badged RL02 packs bear this nomenclature. The other companies' packs (BASF, Memorex, etc) do not. I have about 25-35 diskpacks actually made by (or sourced by) Digital, and they all are RL02K-DC. Cheers John From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 2 01:10:44 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > At the SoCal TRW swapmeet yesterday, I couldn't resist buying an >Espson HX20, in it's brown plastic Epson carrying case, which >included a couple of microcassettes. Welcome to the HX20 owners list. ;) I have one, and at least three or four others on this list do too. Unfortunately I can't remember what mine does, or even if I tested it much. I think I decided to wait until I replaced the internal battery pack since it does something to regulate the system voltage. I didn't get any cassettes with mine, and I wonder if there is anything special about them? >showed up and we all looked for Mike Ford but he was in 'stealth' Make that "snore" mode. I have a "two car" garage with close to a 14 foot ceiling. The previous owner put in a "shelf" above the door that is roughly 8 feet deep, by 24 feet across, with about 5 feet to the ceiling. Until the wee hours of Sunday morning, and for a lot of the past month I have been climbing a ladder and stuffing "things" up there to make space to park my wife's car back in the garage. That blessed event occured about 1 am Sunday, and just a few hours later I was also able to clear path to make it back into the house. Going to the swapmeet and bringing home a bit more was not on the agenda for Sunday. I do have a fair shelf of stuff "to go" though for various people on this list. ;) From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 2 06:54:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? Message-ID: <990802075420.29c000b8@trailing-edge.com> > All of my "Digital" badged RL02 packs bear this nomenclature. > > The other companies' packs (BASF, Memorex, etc) do not. > > I have about 25-35 diskpacks actually made by (or sourced by) >Digital, and they all are RL02K-DC. "DC" stands for "Data Cartridge". There are also "RL02K-EF"'s, which are guaranteed error-free. (And RK05-EF's, and RM03-EF's, etc.) You frequently find the "-EF"'s coming from sites that ran Unix, as Unix doesn't deal very well with errors at all... Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 2 07:34:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have about 25-35 diskpacks actually made by (or sourced by) > Digital, and they all are RL02K-DC. The RLO2-Dx is the general description for RL02 packs from DEC. there were at least two varieties, packs with a limited number of mapped out bad blocks and packs certified bad block free. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 2 09:35:59 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > What is a RL02K-DC? > > One person suspected it might be some kind of test cartridge, so I want to > get a group opinion. BTW three people inquired about it, so its safe to say > its claimed, I just want to know what it is so it goes to a person who can > use it. IIRC: that is a 'standard' RL02 disk cartridge. 'Standard' in that there can be defects in the surface that will not store data correctly. This was compensated for by the operating system (in most cases). In situations where the O.S. did not have the capability to manage media defects, DEC also offered a cartridge designated 'RL02K-EF', where the 'EF' denoted 'Error Free'. (no media defects) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Aug 2 10:49:30 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: Micro-stories for 2nd ed of A Guide to Collecting. Message-ID: <199908021549.LAA01673@phantom.golden.net> The book, A Guide to Collecting... has been both mis-represented and criticized as being for mainframe collectors. That confuses me so I solicit your help in making the 2nd edition for everyone in the hobby. Please send your ideas, especially your acquisition and restoration stories involving microcomputers (PC, etc. = microcomputer). You know, the type of story where you discovered the exact rev. of a certain I/O board while browsing through a china cupboard in an antique shop while you waited for your car to be repaired. That kind of story. Please send them to me directly. Thank you very much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 2 12:32:56 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:33 2005 Subject: GPIB,'C' and the HP-150 (was:Re: Tek 4041) In-Reply-To: <000b01beda3f$c1c72040$d7c502cf@l7> References: <19990729.223839.258.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990802123256.3cff33b6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Roger, You MUST have the HP version. Send me your address and I'll make you a copy the next time I have mine fired up. (It might not be anytime soon.) There is also a version 3.1 (3.2? I don't remember exactly) but you have to have a certain ROM revision level for it to work. Joe At 10:58 PM 7/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Say, while I'm wasting everyone's time, where might I obtain a boot >disk for my HP 150? Would any version of Dos 2.1 work or do I need >an HP version. And many thanks all. This really is a swell bunch of >people you have here!! > >-----Original Message----- >From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of >jeff.kaneko@juno.com >Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 10:38 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: GPIB,'C' and the HP-150 (was:Re: Tek 4041) > > > > >On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:51:04 Joe writes: >>Tony, >> >>At 11:16 PM 7/29/99 +0100, you wrote: >>>> , but >>>> >doesn't the HP150 have an IEEE-488 port (aka GPIB, HPIB) as >>>> >standard. >>>> >>>> Yes, it does but the 150 uses the port to connect to >peripherals >>>> operating under MS-DOS. It has no commands that will let you >send or >>>> recieve specific strings over the HP-IB. >>> >>>That's news to me (and I guess to HP). The HP150 Technical >Reference >>>Manual has a section entitled 'HPIB Interfacing' which describes >how to > >>>use the HPIB port for non-disk devices. >>> >> >> THAT's news to me! I've never heard of using a 150 as a HP-IB >>controller and I have a large STACK of 150 documentation and none >of >>it even hints that you can what you're talking about. Can you >make a >>copy of that for me? S@#* and I've got a pile of 150s setting out >in >the >>rain cause I had no use for them! > >Now see, I figured that you knew this, Joe. I remember when I was >working for motorola, they tried to market an automated radio test >system that used an HP-150 as an instrument controller, attached >(via GPIB) to a service monitor, and a *BIG* interface box called a >'barn' that routed the audio, PTT, etc. > >It didn't sell. The application software sucked. > > > >> In C? Is there a C that will run on the 150? Most of the >software >>has to be tailored specificly for the 150 or else be VERY MS-DOS >>compatible with no short cuts. I've heard of BASIC, Assembler and >Pascal >that >>will run on the 150 but I haven't heard of a C compiler that would. > >I suspect any version of 'C' that is a straight command-line >c-compiler >*ought* to work (using dos calls only, of course). Hmmm. Turbo C >1.0 >comes to mind. The hard part will be getting the HP-150 >implementation >of dos 2.x (or better, 3.x). > >Dang it Joe, see what you've done? Now I have to buy an HP-150 to >try >this out. S@#*. :^) > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 2 12:29:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: GPIB,'C' and the HP-150 (was:Re: Tek 4041) In-Reply-To: <19990729.223839.258.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990802122927.223783c2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:38 PM 7/29/99 -0500, Jeff wrote: > > > >Dang it Joe, see what you've done? Now I have to buy an HP-150 to try >this out. S@#*. :^) Be carefull what you wish for, it may show up on your doorstep! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 2 12:35:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: GPIB,'C' and the HP-150 (was:Re: Tek 4041) In-Reply-To: <19990729.232809.258.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990802123529.60df54f2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jeff, Grab one (or two, or three, or as many as will fit in your car!) The TS-11 is nicer IMO but the Touch Screen was optional. I have DOS and software for them. Joe At 11:27 PM 7/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:58:15 -0500 "Roger Goswick" >writes: >>Say, while I'm wasting everyone's time, where might I obtain a boot >>disk for my HP 150? Would any version of Dos 2.1 work or do I need >>an HP version. And many thanks all. This really is a swell bunch of >>people you have here!! > >It's special. The IBMBIO.COM has all of the hardware specific drivers >for the thing, and it's specially written for the 150's IO system, >namely HPIB. Somebody's *bound* to have a copy somewhere . . . > >My local surplus dealer had Touchscreen II's. I imagine I can get one >pretty cheaply . . . > >Jeff > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Aug 2 13:55:43 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Carts/connector cleaning References: Message-ID: <37A5E9AF.E15127C8@bigfoot.com> Is it even still available? I haven't seen that in years... Mike Ford wrote: > >Pumice powder on a soft rag with a touch of spit or water works good for those > > Doesn't anybody else still use Cramolin? I think I still have both a red > and a blue can (one cleans, one preserves ?). From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Aug 2 14:05:36 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Micro-stories for 2nd ed of A Guide to Collecting. In-Reply-To: <199908021549.LAA01673@phantom.golden.net> Message-ID: <13472312998.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Stories for collecting wanted...] Silly question before I mail this off, are you the guy I already told the PDP-11/44 story to? Someone was writing a book and asked to use it, but I forgot who it was when I lost my email box at my previous employer. Does this sound at all familiar? ------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 14:53:04 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: floppy disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: <001701bedb05$154deb20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: I have the "Operating and Service Manual" for the Tandon TM848-1 and 848-2 8" drives. Since I still use some of those drives, I'm not willing to part with them, but I could get copies made. Unfortunately it looks like I won't have a working scanner at all this week. If you can help me through what to look up, and teach me what to look for, I'd be glad to check things for you. Let me know which sub-model you have. For example: for motor speed, on the 848-1, trigger off of R33; for the 848-2, trigger off of test point 12. For cat's eye alignment: Channel A: Test point 2 Channel B: Test point 3 Ground: Test point 1 External trigger: Test point 11, negative trigger, for single sided drives, R33 is alternatre test point, negative trigger. Test point 12, negative trigger for double sided drives. Tony: I also have manuals for the Sony D31V and D32V drives! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have a couple of Tandon 8" slimline drives (They're in the basement and > I'm not so no model number.) They clearly can't read one another's writing > consistently, so I'm interested in alignment data as well as the jumper > definitions. Would you have a manual which contains that information? I > need to know what the jumpers are and do, and what the factory default > settings are. I also need to know where the dif-amp outputs to be used for > alignment are located, (pin numbers) as well as the index sensor pin and > other signals used in adjusting these drives for radial head alignment, > index alignment, track zero calibration, etc. If you have it and could > email me that data, it would help greatly. > > regards, > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 7:23 PM > Subject: Re: Cromemco 4FDC, How do you format a disk? > > > >> true and for the data I gave the 125kbits/sec rate is too low. As it's > >> minima was 250kbits/s is twice that! Part of the recording scheme is > that > >> there are rules for continous strings of 1s and 0s, they arent permitted > >> to exist for clocking and bandwidth reasons. > > > >I've seen plenty of controllers and data separators that put limits on the > >maximum number of consecutive pulses and gaps. That's why you need clock > >pulses in MFM recording, and why Apple had the 5-3 and 6-2 encoder tables. > >I have _never_ seen a drive (and I've read OEM and service manuals for all > >sorts of drives) that specify any restrictions on the user data using the > >standard encoding schemes > > > >At normal 5.25" data rates (125kbps (user bits) FM, 250kbps MFM) : > > > >Repeated MFM 0's looks like repeated MFM 1's looks like repeated FM 1's, > >and consists of pulses every 4 us. > > > >Repeated MFM 1010... looks like repeated FM 0's, and consists of pulses > >every 8us. > > > >Now, all drives support user sectors of 1024 bytes (8192 bits), MFM at > >least (and I don't think this is a real limit of the _drive_ either). > >That means you could have either of the above patterns for 8192 bits -- > >the user bytes 'touch' each other with nothing between, and there's > >nothing to stop you having a sector of 0's, a sector of FF's or a sector > >of 55s if you want it. A disk drive that couldn't store said data would > >not be useful. > > > >I've got a Sony 3.5" drive on the bench at the moment. Now this drive > >rotates at 600rpm, so you would double the above data rates. Some of the > >tests involve recording pulses every 2us (corresponding to the first case > >above) and 4us (corresponding to the second case above) continuously for > >one revolution and then playing them back. The service manual for the Teac > >FD235 gives tests involving the recording and reproduction of 250kHz > >(pulse every 4us) and 125kHz (pulse every 8us) waveforms. > > > >So it would certainly appear that these 2 drives could correctly handle > >FM recording at half the user data rate of the standard MFM encoding. In > >other words that Teac (720K) drive would handle FM encoding at 125kbps. > > > >-tony > > > > -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 12:48:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Aug 1, 99 11:10:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1085 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990802/f47de296/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:07:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: GPIB,'C' and the HP-150 (was:Re: Tek 4041) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990802123529.60df54f2@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Aug 2, 99 12:35:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 713 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990802/6e23f30e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 12:26:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Aug 1, 99 05:47:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 992 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990802/2bab141b/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Aug 2 15:42:49 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908022042.NAA05712@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The battery, BTW is 4 Sub-C NiCd cells in series. Reasonably easy to make ^ Oops, I think that should be 3 not 4?? Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 15:35:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: floppy disk drive manuals In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 2, 99 12:53:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990802/553b66fc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 15:42:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: <199908022042.NAA05712@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Aug 2, 99 01:42:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990802/39af7e67/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 2 17:43:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: floppy disk drive manuals Message-ID: <001c01bedd38$66165800$0400c0a8@winbook> Thanks for the information. Don Maslin sent some information which it turns out doesn't apply exactly to my particular drives, as some of the jumpers on his list dont exist, while others, on the drive, don't appear on the list. I'm not sure what that means, though. The drives had paper tags printed with dot-matrix which are mostly missing, and I'm quite certain the printed-on-foil labels are not specific enough to account for the different. Having re-jumpered the drives, they are able to read one another's writing, though I'm uncomfortable with some of the behaviors certain jumpers produce, particularly one, which seems to effect the drives differently. I've had these drives since they were a new product, but haven't looked at them since a couple of moves before I landed here ten years ago. I'm not in a hurry now that these drives are available for me to use to troubleshoot other drives, but when your scanner's back on line, I'd really appreciate a copy of the bitmaps. thanx, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 2:03 PM Subject: Re: floppy disk drive manuals >I have the "Operating and Service Manual" for the Tandon TM848-1 and 848-2 >8" drives. Since I still use some of those drives, I'm not willing to >part with them, but I could get copies made. Unfortunately it looks like >I won't have a working scanner at all this week. If you can help me >through what to look up, and teach me what to look for, I'd be glad to >check things for you. Let me know which sub-model you have. > >For example: >for motor speed, on the 848-1, trigger off of R33; for the 848-2, trigger >off of test point 12. > >For cat's eye alignment: >Channel A: Test point 2 >Channel B: Test point 3 >Ground: Test point 1 >External trigger: Test point 11, negative trigger, for single sided >drives, R33 is alternatre test point, negative trigger. Test point 12, >negative trigger for double sided drives. > > >Tony: >I also have manuals for the Sony D31V and D32V drives! > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > >On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I have a couple of Tandon 8" slimline drives (They're in the basement and >> I'm not so no model number.) They clearly can't read one another's writing >> consistently, so I'm interested in alignment data as well as the jumper >> definitions. Would you have a manual which contains that information? I >> need to know what the jumpers are and do, and what the factory default >> settings are. I also need to know where the dif-amp outputs to be used for >> alignment are located, (pin numbers) as well as the index sensor pin and >> other signals used in adjusting these drives for radial head alignment, >> index alignment, track zero calibration, etc. If you have it and could >> email me that data, it would help greatly. >> >> regards, >> >> Dick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tony Duell >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 7:23 PM >> Subject: Re: Cromemco 4FDC, How do you format a disk? >> >> >> >> true and for the data I gave the 125kbits/sec rate is too low. As it's >> >> minima was 250kbits/s is twice that! Part of the recording scheme is >> that >> >> there are rules for continous strings of 1s and 0s, they arent permitted >> >> to exist for clocking and bandwidth reasons. >> > >> >I've seen plenty of controllers and data separators that put limits on the >> >maximum number of consecutive pulses and gaps. That's why you need clock >> >pulses in MFM recording, and why Apple had the 5-3 and 6-2 encoder tables. >> >I have _never_ seen a drive (and I've read OEM and service manuals for all >> >sorts of drives) that specify any restrictions on the user data using the >> >standard encoding schemes >> > >> >At normal 5.25" data rates (125kbps (user bits) FM, 250kbps MFM) : >> > >> >Repeated MFM 0's looks like repeated MFM 1's looks like repeated FM 1's, >> >and consists of pulses every 4 us. >> > >> >Repeated MFM 1010... looks like repeated FM 0's, and consists of pulses >> >every 8us. >> > >> >Now, all drives support user sectors of 1024 bytes (8192 bits), MFM at >> >least (and I don't think this is a real limit of the _drive_ either). >> >That means you could have either of the above patterns for 8192 bits -- >> >the user bytes 'touch' each other with nothing between, and there's >> >nothing to stop you having a sector of 0's, a sector of FF's or a sector >> >of 55s if you want it. A disk drive that couldn't store said data would >> >not be useful. >> > >> >I've got a Sony 3.5" drive on the bench at the moment. Now this drive >> >rotates at 600rpm, so you would double the above data rates. Some of the >> >tests involve recording pulses every 2us (corresponding to the first case >> >above) and 4us (corresponding to the second case above) continuously for >> >one revolution and then playing them back. The service manual for the Teac >> >FD235 gives tests involving the recording and reproduction of 250kHz >> >(pulse every 4us) and 125kHz (pulse every 8us) waveforms. >> > >> >So it would certainly appear that these 2 drives could correctly handle >> >FM recording at half the user data rate of the standard MFM encoding. In >> >other words that Teac (720K) drive would handle FM encoding at 125kbps. >> > >> >-tony >> > >> >> > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > From elvey at hal.com Mon Aug 2 18:02:02 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908022302.QAA05752@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > The battery, BTW is 4 Sub-C NiCd cells in series. Reasonably easy to make > > ^ > > > > Oops, I think that should be 3 not 4?? > > No, it's 4, or at least all mine are. Each cell is 1.2V, so the 4 in > series are 4.8V. Oops, sorry, I was thinking a little off. You are correct. Dwight From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 2 20:02:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find Message-ID: Ok, here's something very cool as far as IBM PC artifacts go. Its an "IBM TPC 4 System Unit" (the model is 4459). Its a tempested PC! Its basically an unfinished PC case inside a bigger case that provides the shielding. The connectors in the back all extend out to the outer shell, which has a metal screen around the connector openings. The power supply power plug connector is a threaded round connector. The power switch is relocated as a radial knob on the front of the chassis. Its got a 5.25" floppy drive and a hard drive (can't wait to see what's on it) enclosed in an inner cage to sheild them. The motherboard is a 256-512K version. The cards inside are pretty standard (I/O, hard drive/floppy interface, expanded memory). Very neat. Anyone ever heard of this? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 2 20:27:08 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find Message-ID: <976e10d2.24d79f6c@aol.com> IIRC, IBM made several tempest models like the PC, XT and AT. very heavy duty, but never saw one in real life. I picked up a neat IBM part. It's a prototype AT adaptor never used and still in its worn out box. it's basically just a full length AT card with holes for soldering in chips and components. Will go good with my never used PC keyboard and 5150 still in their boxes... In a message dated 8/2/99 9:02:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > Ok, here's something very cool as far as IBM PC artifacts go. Its an "IBM > TPC 4 System Unit" (the model is 4459). Its a tempested PC! From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 2 20:30:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Ok, here's something very cool as far as IBM PC artifacts go. Its an "IBM > TPC 4 System Unit" (the model is 4459). Its a tempested PC! Its Duh. I just realized its got a 286, so its a PC/AT. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Aug 2 21:03:42 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: GridPad 1910 sales? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990802135453.4f1f34aa@ricochet.net> At 11:47 PM 6/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >> ::Hi. A while back I was talking with Rodger on the list about the >> ::(appearant) abundance of GridPad 1910's that he was selling.... did th >He's around. Probably just extraordinarily busy as usual. Give him a >day or two to respond to your e-mails. I'm behind. Can you tell? 8^) Since I started that project, a few things happened -- I got married, trashed a couple of hard drives, and my dad had another stroke. At this point, the GRiDPads are kinda sitting there, waiting to be retested, boxed, and shipped, but I'm spending all my time at the hospital (when not working) so it won't be anytime soon. When he comes home, I'll likely be spending a lot of time caring for him, so I can't say when I'll really be able to get to it. So, if you have another chance to get a cheap GRiDPad, go for it. If you're desparate to get one asap, let me konw and I'll see what I can do. Otherwise, feel free to tell me to bugger off, or invest the money elsewhere for the time being. I'm really sorry about the delay and confusion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Aug 3 06:06:40 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find Message-ID: <802567C2.003D5008.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Ok, here's something very cool as far as IBM PC artifacts go. Its an "IBM > TPC 4 System Unit" (the model is 4459). Its a tempested PC! Its I don't remember the 4459 but I do remember seeing an IBM Tempest PC when I was working at IBM as a pre-university student. Very solid panels that all screwed into place, rather than the pressed sheet metal around three sides. I also recall filter components between connnectors on the back panel and the cards / motherboard ports to which they belonged. These all went in a cavity about 1.5 inches deep between the rear of the PC chassis and the actual back panel. Philip. From steve.lubbers at barco.com Tue Aug 3 07:50:30 1999 From: steve.lubbers at barco.com (steve.lubbers@barco.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair Message-ID: I've been trying to bring my old RX02 drive back to life, with little success. I just received a good bootable floppy, and get the same results as with all my old disks, so now I'm looking for hardware problems. On a PDP-11/03, With RXV21 controller, and an RX02 drive, the RX02 initializes, attempts to read the boot block, and crashes to ODT at 000600. > In examining what my system reads as it attempts to boot, it looks like I > read every other 128 byte chunk correctly. I haven't figured out a pattern > to the corrupt sections. Does anyone have any RX02 diagnostics, or hardware trouble shooting tips? Steve From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 3 10:23:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: GridPad 1910 sales? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990802135453.4f1f34aa@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199908031323.PAA13077@horus.mch.sni.de> > Since I started that project, a few things happened -- I got married, > trashed a couple of hard drives, and my dad had another stroke. At this > point, the GRiDPads are kinda sitting there, waiting to be retested, boxed, > and shipped, but I'm spending all my time at the hospital (when not > working) so it won't be anytime soon. When he comes home, I'll likely be > spending a lot of time caring for him, so I can't say when I'll really be > able to get to it. Tell him my best whishes (Alles Gute und gute Besserung). I hope he will get up again soon. Servus Hans -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From JLO170 at aol.com Tue Aug 3 09:12:35 1999 From: JLO170 at aol.com (JLO170@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: I have a Texas Instruments T1-99/4A computer and related books for it and I also have a Sinclair 1000 with related books. Can you tell me if they are of value and/or use to anyone out there ? Thank you for any help. Joe Oleksy JLO170@AOL.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 3 11:29:27 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908031429.QAA17570@horus.mch.sni.de> > I have a Texas Instruments T1-99/4A computer and related books for it and I > also have a Sinclair 1000 with related books. Can you tell me if they are of > value and/or use to anyone out there ? Well, Value ? This is _very_ dependant on the condition and the situation (and of course, as always, on the buyer 'need':). A 99/4A can range from USD 2,- (just the unit in used condition) up to USD 30-70 (New, unused, original packed, never opened with no damages on the box). PS: The white units may score way higher in Europe, since they never where sold in masses over here. PPS: a Ti 99/4 (no A) will also range higher, especialy when in mint/ unused condition. A Timex/Sinclair may earn you USD 2-5 (used, with PS) or score a whooping USD 50,- as a new never opened box. Well, it's up to you. Any use for the old stuff ? Again personal choice - run the old games etc ... or just collect them (belive me, there are some realy wiered guys (and gals) out there :). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 3 10:19:19 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find References: Message-ID: <37A70877.A92D4618@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, here's something very cool as far as IBM PC artifacts go. Its an "IBM > TPC 4 System Unit" (the model is 4459). Its a tempested PC! Its > basically an unfinished PC case inside a bigger case that provides the > shielding. The connectors in the back all extend out to the outer shell, > which has a metal screen around the connector openings. The power supply > power plug connector is a threaded round connector. The power switch is > relocated as a radial knob on the front of the chassis. Its got a 5.25" > floppy drive and a hard drive (can't wait to see what's on it) enclosed in > an inner cage to sheild them. The motherboard is a 256-512K version. > The cards inside are pretty standard (I/O, hard drive/floppy > interface, expanded memory). Very neat. > > Anyone ever heard of this? If it has a hard drive, it was probably not used as a Tempest machine. The TPC I have contains only two floppy drives, and my understanding is that a tempest machine must have media that can be removed and cannot have fixed media. Did you get the tempest keyboard and monitor with it? I got mine about a year ago, and was the first one I had seen. As seems usual though, no docs came with it. Congratulations on the neat find! From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Aug 3 10:29:08 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: chinese and russian computer history Message-ID: <802567C2.0054E2EC.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Can anyone help this guy out? As usual, respond to him, not me (nor the list), please. Phikip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 03/08/99 16:33 --------------------------- roinfo@knoware.nl on 28/07/99 22:04:04 Please respond to roinfo@knoware.nl To: history-of-computing-uk@mailbase.ac.uk cc: Subject: chinese and russian computer history Where do i find info on russian pre perestroika landmark computers and also info on chinese landmark computers Cornelis Robat ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 11:42:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: <802567C2.003D5008.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > I don't remember the 4459 but I do remember seeing an IBM Tempest PC > when I was working at IBM as a pre-university student. Very solid > panels that all screwed into place, rather than the pressed sheet > metal around three sides. I also recall filter components between Yes, this has a top panel that comes off. It's fastened to the rest of the case by way of about 10 hex screws that are permanently mounted to the lid and have springs under them to make them pop up when you undo them. > connnectors on the back panel and the cards / motherboard ports to > which they belonged. These all went in a cavity about 1.5 inches deep > between the rear of the PC chassis and the actual back panel. Yep. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 11:47:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <199908031429.QAA17570@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > A 99/4A can range from USD 2,- (just the unit in used condition) > up to USD 30-70 (New, unused, original packed, never opened with > no damages on the box). PS: The white units may score way higher Hans, I don't know about you wacky Germans, but any American paying USD$30-70 for a TI-99/4a in ANY condition would be a fool and a half. Maybe if it was gold plated, or the President used it to fondle an intern, then maybe. But I just passed up on two TI-99/4a's in the box without even a second thought. New, unused, original packaging and never opened with no damage to the box is not hard to find (ok, except for "never opened", but still). Maybe USD$10-$25. > in Europe, since they never where sold in masses over here. PPS: > a Ti 99/4 (no A) will also range higher, especialy when in mint/ > unused condition. I just paid $90 for future reference. A bit more than I wanted to pay but then how many 99/4's does one come across? In my experience of collecting for many years, the answer is not many at all. > A Timex/Sinclair may earn you USD 2-5 (used, with PS) or score > a whooping USD 50,- as a new never opened box. Repeat same discussion as above. You can buy new ZX-81's from that zebra website for US$29 or whatever it is. > Well, it's up to you. That's the ultimate price indicator. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 11:52:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: <37A70877.A92D4618@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Marvin wrote: > If it has a hard drive, it was probably not used as a Tempest machine. The > TPC I have contains only two floppy drives, and my understanding is that a > tempest machine must have media that can be removed and cannot have fixed Well, perhaps someone bought this surplus and added the hard drive later. But both the floppy and harddrive are enclosed within their own shielded compartment inside the case. Still, I was surprised that there was no shielding on the front of the hard and floppy drives, so it does seem suspicious. > media. Did you get the tempest keyboard and monitor with it? I got mine > about a year ago, and was the first one I had seen. As seems usual though, Unfortunately, no. Come to think of it, I may have inadvertently passed it up at the thrift store, because it took me until I got home to figure out what this thing was. But the connectors on back are pretty standard, and I think I would've notice any odd or unusual looking keyboard or monitor. At any rate, I'll be going back in a week to check if anything else turns up for it. BTW, I also have a tempest Macintosh 512K, and a tempest HP inkjet printer. I guess I now have enough stuff to create a collecting subcategory :) > no docs came with it. Congratulations on the neat find! Thanks! One more cool piece of IBM gear to add to my growing pile. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 3 14:00:11 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <199908031429.QAA17570@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908031700.TAA24691@horus.mch.sni.de> > > A 99/4A can range from USD 2,- (just the unit in used condition) > > up to USD 30-70 (New, unused, original packed, never opened with > > no damages on the box). PS: The white units may score way higher > Hans, I don't know about you wacky Germans, but any American paying > USD$30-70 for a TI-99/4a in ANY condition would be a fool and a half. > Maybe if it was gold plated, or the President used it to fondle an intern, > then maybe. But I just passed up on two TI-99/4a's in the box without > even a second thought. > New, unused, original packaging and never opened with no damage to the box > is not hard to find (ok, except for "never opened", but still). Maybe > USD$10-$25. Just catch the next for me (never opened!) TI wasn't the real big thing over here. > > in Europe, since they never where sold in masses over here. PPS: > > a Ti 99/4 (no A) will also range higher, especialy when in mint/ > > unused condition. > I just paid $90 for future reference. A bit more than I wanted to pay but > then how many 99/4's does one come across? In my experience of collecting > for many years, the answer is not many at all. USD 90,- is quite high - it may need a second thought. > > A Timex/Sinclair may earn you USD 2-5 (used, with PS) or score > > a whooping USD 50,- as a new never opened box. > Repeat same discussion as above. You can buy new ZX-81's from that zebra > website for US$29 or whatever it is. Well, you might notice, in both cases that the high prices are ment for top notch stuff, and, as my mother said: Every day a dumb one lifts his head - you just have to catch him... (As I have seen the original question was about for what he might sell his stuff (jep, of course, take an auction (rarerarerare:))) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 12:14:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Interesting TI 99/4a products Message-ID: Ok, I don't know if anyone else has ever seen this, but check out this web site: http://www.whtech.com/ti/ These guys are selling new TI 99/4a products. Ever heard of a SCSI adaptor for the 99/4a? This site has one! They used to have a product to hook an AT keyboard up to the TI. Pretty interesting. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 12:16:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: More TI web sites Message-ID: Wow, this is right from TI's web site: http://www.ti.com/calc/docs/994a.htm They even refer you to a fan website. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 3 12:51:07 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! Message-ID: I do not like this VMS. I like RSX and RT, but not VMS. First of all, it's running on a 32-bit machine and it isn't UNIX. That's just offensive. Then, second, it won't let me log in because I don't remember any of the passwords. I even tried the boot/r5:1 and uafalternate thing, but it still won't let me type in bogus login info. What a pain. If anyone knows how to get around this, please mail me back. I have a really important file on this silly vax and need to save it on a machine that I do backups on regularly. Then I'll be free to run NetBSD. Instead of that dumb VMS. ;^) jake From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 3 13:05:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! Message-ID: <990803140538.2a6000b5@trailing-edge.com> >offensive. Then, second, it won't let me log in because I don't remember >any of the passwords. I even tried the boot/r5:1 and uafalternate thing, >but it still won't let me type in bogus login info. What a pain. >If anyone knows how to get around this, please mail me back. You want to read the OpenVMS FAQ (see http://www.openvms.digital.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html ), specifically "MGMT5. I've forgotten the SYSTEM password - what can I do?". It walks you through step-by-step, and best of all tells you how to do it without UAFALTERNATE set to 1. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Tue Aug 3 13:12:19 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Aug 3, 99 09:52:01 am" Message-ID: <199908031812.OAA19445@hiway1.exit109.com> > On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > If it has a hard drive, it was probably not used as a Tempest machine. The > > TPC I have contains only two floppy drives, and my understanding is that a > > tempest machine must have media that can be removed and cannot have fixed > > media. > > Well, perhaps someone bought this surplus and added the hard drive later. > But both the floppy and harddrive are enclosed within their own shielded > compartment inside the case. Still, I was surprised that there was no > shielding on the front of the hard and floppy drives, so it does seem > suspicious. I think that the requirement for removable media is a function of requirements for being physically able to secure the information as opposed to the requirements for EM leakage. In other words, IIRC, you could have a tempest box with non-removable media provided that you kept it in a secure (i.e., locked) processing area such as a vault. <<>> From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Aug 3 14:22:46 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: from "Jacob Ritorto" at Aug 03, 1999 01:51:07 PM Message-ID: <199908031922.NAA23348@calico.litterbox.com> Um, while I fail to understand why VMS is dumb for not letting you in without the right passwords, I realise that's not very helpful to you. :) Hit the web page at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/2956/data.htm and search for the word "password". It lists the procedure. And at the risk of starting a religious war between the VMS folk and the unix folk, let me say just that VMS and Unix are good at different things. VMS is much much more secure than unix, and has far greater ability to give users *some* privilages without giving them *everything*. This is valuable in some circumstances. Unix probably does get better overall performance for the same hardware because it doesn't have this security overhead, among other things. Hope this helps. -jim > > I do not like this VMS. I like RSX and RT, but not VMS. First of all, > it's running on a 32-bit machine and it isn't UNIX. That's just > offensive. Then, second, it won't let me log in because I don't remember > any of the passwords. I even tried the boot/r5:1 and uafalternate thing, > but it still won't let me type in bogus login info. What a pain. > > If anyone knows how to get around this, please mail me back. I have a > really important file on this silly vax and need to save it on a machine > that I do backups on regularly. Then I'll be free to run NetBSD. Instead > of that dumb VMS. > > ;^) > > jake > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 3 14:50:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I do not like this VMS. I like RSX and RT, but not VMS. First of all, > it's running on a 32-bit machine and it isn't UNIX. That's just > offensive. Then, second, it won't let me log in because I don't remember > any of the passwords. I even tried the boot/r5:1 and uafalternate thing, > but it still won't let me type in bogus login info. What a pain. Dumb huh, it's at least secure! Ok go to the netbsd site and nose around, the proceedure for breaking into VMS is there... if not get me off line and I'll drag you through it. It's obvious you aren't familiar with VAXen or VMS enough to know that if the vax is set up to auto boot you must first get out of that state to invoke sysboot for the uafalternate thing. It not all that hard if you can find the "break" key or the halt button (MVII). Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 3 14:55:31 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <199908031922.NAA23348@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Aug 3, 99 01:22:46 pm Message-ID: <199908031955.MAA21037@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 619 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990803/d9577fd7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:42:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair In-Reply-To: from "steve.lubbers@barco.com" at Aug 3, 99 02:50:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990803/9ab20ef4/attachment.ksh From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 3 15:03:45 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <199908031922.NAA23348@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > Um, while I fail to understand why VMS is dumb for not letting you in without > the right passwords, I realise that's not very helpful to you. :) Hit the Oh... that was my attempt at cynicism regarding silly hackers who haven't studied their history; sorry if it was vague. I actually like VMS (though I do like RSX more). > web page at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/2956/data.htm > and search for the word "password". It lists the procedure. Tim's dec website reference got me going nicely. Thanks Tim! > > And at the risk of starting a religious war between the VMS folk and the > unix folk, let me say just that VMS and Unix are good at different things. Agreed. > VMS is much much more secure than unix, and has far greater ability to give > users *some* privilages without giving them *everything*. This is valuable I noticed that M$ copied VMS's privilege structure in NT as well as much UNIX functionality. Bastards.. > in some circumstances. Unix probably does get better overall performance > for the same hardware because it doesn't have this security overhead, among > other things. > > > Hope this helps. > -jim > I still think I'll try NetBSD on one of my 3100s. Does it do anything yet? I'll certainly keep the VMS 5.5 installation on one too; plenty of disk space for both. What would be interesting would be to get the VMS to route TCP/IP and DECNET so I can have something to gateway my RSX machine. (Unless somebody finally did that free TCP/IP stack for RSX.) I {heart} my vintage heterogeneous home network. jake From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 3 15:04:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <001001beddeb$582f4ae0$0400c0a8@winbook> Since I have their latest CD, I have all the data sheets. What I'm after is the information about the logic cell resources, clock drivers, routing resources, etc, generic to each family and not specific to a given device. The individual sheets seldom have that data. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 11:11 AM Subject: Re: (no subject) >> > A 99/4A can range from USD 2,- (just the unit in used condition) >> > up to USD 30-70 (New, unused, original packed, never opened with >> > no damages on the box). PS: The white units may score way higher > >> Hans, I don't know about you wacky Germans, but any American paying >> USD$30-70 for a TI-99/4a in ANY condition would be a fool and a half. >> Maybe if it was gold plated, or the President used it to fondle an intern, >> then maybe. But I just passed up on two TI-99/4a's in the box without >> even a second thought. > >> New, unused, original packaging and never opened with no damage to the box >> is not hard to find (ok, except for "never opened", but still). Maybe >> USD$10-$25. > >Just catch the next for me (never opened!) > >TI wasn't the real big thing over here. > >> > in Europe, since they never where sold in masses over here. PPS: >> > a Ti 99/4 (no A) will also range higher, especialy when in mint/ >> > unused condition. > >> I just paid $90 for future reference. A bit more than I wanted to pay but >> then how many 99/4's does one come across? In my experience of collecting >> for many years, the answer is not many at all. > >USD 90,- is quite high - it may need a second thought. > >> > A Timex/Sinclair may earn you USD 2-5 (used, with PS) or score >> > a whooping USD 50,- as a new never opened box. > >> Repeat same discussion as above. You can buy new ZX-81's from that zebra >> website for US$29 or whatever it is. > >Well, you might notice, in both cases that the high prices >are ment for top notch stuff, and, as my mother said: >Every day a dumb one lifts his head - you just have to catch him... >(As I have seen the original question was about for what he might >sell his stuff (jep, of course, take an auction (rarerarerare:))) > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 3 15:06:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! Message-ID: <001501beddeb$a2a92640$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes. That's the reason it was so popular with certain government agencies when I worked in the Military/Industrial complex. VMS was multi-level secure while UNIX, at least then, was full of holes. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 1:33 PM Subject: Re: DUMB VMS! >Um, while I fail to understand why VMS is dumb for not letting you in without >the right passwords, I realise that's not very helpful to you. :) Hit the >web page at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/2956/data.htm >and search for the word "password". It lists the procedure. > >And at the risk of starting a religious war between the VMS folk and the >unix folk, let me say just that VMS and Unix are good at different things. >VMS is much much more secure than unix, and has far greater ability to give >users *some* privilages without giving them *everything*. This is valuable >in some circumstances. Unix probably does get better overall performance >for the same hardware because it doesn't have this security overhead, among >other things. > > >Hope this helps. >-jim > >> >> I do not like this VMS. I like RSX and RT, but not VMS. First of all, >> it's running on a 32-bit machine and it isn't UNIX. That's just >> offensive. Then, second, it won't let me log in because I don't remember >> any of the passwords. I even tried the boot/r5:1 and uafalternate thing, >> but it still won't let me type in bogus login info. What a pain. >> >> If anyone knows how to get around this, please mail me back. I have a >> really important file on this silly vax and need to save it on a machine >> that I do backups on regularly. Then I'll be free to run NetBSD. Instead >> of that dumb VMS. >> >> ;^) >> >> jake >> > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 3 15:13:02 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: [snip] > Dumb huh, it's at least secure! > > Ok go to the netbsd site and nose around, the proceedure for breaking into > VMS is there... if not get me off line and I'll drag you through it. > > It's obvious you aren't familiar with VAXen or VMS enough to know that if > the vax is set up to auto boot you must first get out of that state to > invoke sysboot for the uafalternate thing. It not all that hard if you > can find the "break" key or the halt button (MVII). Sure, sure, I did all that. My system apparently had a second sysuaf.dat. I only knew the uafalternate method before, so Tim's recommendation was a very welcome piece of advise. I don't really hate VMS, I was just throwing a fit. thanks for the offer/reply anyway. > > Allison > jake From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 3 15:22:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 3, 99 06:42:30 pm Message-ID: <199908032022.NAA22745@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990803/5d6da7a7/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 3 15:37:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Sure, sure, I did all that. My system apparently had a second sysuaf.dat. > I only knew the uafalternate method before, so Tim's recommendation was a > very welcome piece of advise. I don't really hate VMS, I was just > throwing a fit. I don't hate unix, though the only one that supports most vaxen completely at this time is Ultrix... but NetBSD is catching up fast. As to the second sysuaf.dat... common, the breakin procesure has you set a pointer to a default one that is there. FYI: Cutler designed RSX the basis of VMS and then he went to MS to promote BS... ;) Now you know why the security sorta looks similar. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 3 15:41:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair In-Reply-To: <199908032022.NAA22745@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > Hmmm, you'll find some info on RX02's at the following URL, I just checked > and unfortunatly doesn't look to have the printset. I does have the > RX01/RX02 Pocket Service Guide though. First make sure it's set for RXV21/RX11 and not the RX8E interface. Then inspct the heads for crud and insure there are pressure pads in the arm that presses the media to the disk. The disk must be either RX01 or RX02 format and if your trying to boot it must have the correct boot RX01/02 (or RT11 DY for rx02 DX for RX01). These things are generally electronically reliable but connectors get loose, powersupplies go off the correct voltages. The drives may have mechanical ill. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 3 15:44:09 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:34 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair Message-ID: <990803164409.2a6000c3@trailing-edge.com> >correct voltages. The drives may have mechanical ill. The most common "mechanical ill" these days is the drive belts falling off. Funny, how it's hard to read a disk that isn't turning :-). Tim. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 3 15:58:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <003d01beddf2$fcdfc4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> My apologies, folks . . . this one's clearly misrouted. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: Re: (no subject) >Since I have their latest CD, I have all the data sheets. What I'm after is >the information about the logic cell resources, clock drivers, routing >resources, etc, generic to each family and not specific to a given device. >The individual sheets seldom have that data. > >regards, > >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hans Franke >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 11:11 AM >Subject: Re: (no subject) > > >>> > A 99/4A can range from USD 2,- (just the unit in used condition) >>> > up to USD 30-70 (New, unused, original packed, never opened with >>> > no damages on the box). PS: The white units may score way higher >> >>> Hans, I don't know about you wacky Germans, but any American paying >>> USD$30-70 for a TI-99/4a in ANY condition would be a fool and a half. >>> Maybe if it was gold plated, or the President used it to fondle an >intern, >>> then maybe. But I just passed up on two TI-99/4a's in the box without >>> even a second thought. >> >>> New, unused, original packaging and never opened with no damage to the >box >>> is not hard to find (ok, except for "never opened", but still). Maybe >>> USD$10-$25. >> >>Just catch the next for me (never opened!) >> >>TI wasn't the real big thing over here. >> >>> > in Europe, since they never where sold in masses over here. PPS: >>> > a Ti 99/4 (no A) will also range higher, especialy when in mint/ >>> > unused condition. >> >>> I just paid $90 for future reference. A bit more than I wanted to pay >but >>> then how many 99/4's does one come across? In my experience of >collecting >>> for many years, the answer is not many at all. >> >>USD 90,- is quite high - it may need a second thought. >> >>> > A Timex/Sinclair may earn you USD 2-5 (used, with PS) or score >>> > a whooping USD 50,- as a new never opened box. >> >>> Repeat same discussion as above. You can buy new ZX-81's from that zebra >>> website for US$29 or whatever it is. >> >>Well, you might notice, in both cases that the high prices >>are ment for top notch stuff, and, as my mother said: >>Every day a dumb one lifts his head - you just have to catch him... >>(As I have seen the original question was about for what he might >>sell his stuff (jep, of course, take an auction (rarerarerare:))) >> >>Gruss >>H. >> >>-- >>Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >>Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >>Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >>HRK > From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 3 16:31:43 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: paper tape winding - suggestions???!?! Message-ID: <007d01beddf7$94fb2460$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Most of the paper tape software that I have is on rolls, not fanfold. So - unlike my nice PDP-8 PC04 that folds paper tape that was just read all nicely on one side..... after reading a tape roll on my HP I have a very large and fragile mess of a tape pile on the floor. I'm sure that many of the inventive folks on the list have come up with interesting ways to re-roll paper tape after it's read (short of the "by hand" route that takes forever). I don't have an electric or manual tape winder, but figured people around here had found some other thing that would do it well. I *THOUGHT* I had found a great solution - one of those old fashioned hand crank drills. I wrap the paper tape tightly aroung the tip (without a bit in it), set it point down on a cushioned chair, turn the crank and viola - my tape rolls up quickly. However, last night as I saw my cherished diagnostic configurator tape slide right into the gears of the drill, I figured I had better ask for other solutions . Is there something common around a typical house that folks have found works well for winding paper tape rolls? Thanks! Jay West From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 3 16:27:12 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: routing Message-ID: This is only semi-ot because it involves my SparcII, which I can't seem to find the date on right now, but I'm pretty sure it meets the requirement. At any rate, please contact me off-list to avoid cluttering it up. I'm trying to network my SparcII to my p166 running Linux (and ultimately my VAXstation and Sun 3/60). No matter how hard I try or which configurations I use, I can't ping from my Sparc [196.168.1.2] to my p166 [192.168.1.1]. I dropped a Win98 box on the network and set it up as 192.168.1.3. I could ping ...2 but not ...3. I could ping ...3 from ...2. But neither box is talking to ...1. I know it works because the ethernet card is configured in the kernel, I see it get recognized at boot up, I can set the IP with ifconfig. I've read all my books about it, the man pages, the NETWORKING-HOWTO and the Ethernet-HOWTO as well as asking in #linux on effnet. This is a last resort. Thanks, Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 3 16:51:45 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: routing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990803165145.0101fec0@vpwisfirewall> At 05:27 PM 8/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > >I'm trying to network my SparcII to my p166 running Linux (and ultimately >my VAXstation and Sun 3/60). No matter how hard I try or which >configurations I use, I can't ping from my Sparc [196.168.1.2] to my p166 >[192.168.1.1]. I dropped a Win98 box on the network and set it up as >192.168.1.3. I could ping ...2 but not ...3. I could ping ...3 from ...2. >But neither box is talking to ...1. Sounds like a bad cable or hub. Which cable type are you using? - John From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Tue Aug 3 17:03:19 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: oops Message-ID: <003401beddfc$3e28a220$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> I think I forgot to attach the photo. Here it is. Definately not a masterpiece. Sue -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bridesmaiddress.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990803/08be3c5f/bridesmaiddress.jpg From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 3 17:18:03 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: routing Message-ID: <009601beddfe$0de51060$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I assume your netmasks are 255.255.255.0, and you don't have a default gateway set? Could also be bad cable, hub, etc... What about other traffic of a tcp nature rather than udp - such as telnet, ftp, etc... of course making sure these services are enabled in inetd.conf (followed by a sighup to inetd)? Are you sure the ip information is really set on the sun (ie. what does ifconfig -a show, is the interface marked up, etc.?)?? Jay West -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Semi-OT: routing >At 05:27 PM 8/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >>I'm trying to network my SparcII to my p166 running Linux (and ultimately >>my VAXstation and Sun 3/60). No matter how hard I try or which >>configurations I use, I can't ping from my Sparc [196.168.1.2] to my p166 >>[192.168.1.1]. I dropped a Win98 box on the network and set it up as >>192.168.1.3. I could ping ...2 but not ...3. I could ping ...3 from ...2. >>But neither box is talking to ...1. > >Sounds like a bad cable or hub. Which cable type are you using? > >- John > > From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 3 17:18:27 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: routing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990803165145.0101fec0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: > Sounds like a bad cable or hub. Which cable type are you using? > > - John > I've tried different cables and different ports in my (brand new) LinkSys 20-port hub. I'm using generic Cat-5 from the local Micro Center (a rather large computer store). Thanks, Kevin From owad at applefritter.com Tue Aug 3 18:18:28 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find Message-ID: <199908032218.PAA04940@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >BTW, I also have a tempest Macintosh 512K, and a tempest HP inkjet >printer. I guess I now have enough stuff to create a collecting >subcategory :) What's your tempest Mac 512K like, Sam? Is it similar to the one I've got at ? Tom Owad ---------------------------Applefritter--------------------------- Apple prototypes, Apple II & early Mac clones, and the Compubrick. ------------------------------------ From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 3 17:19:28 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: routing In-Reply-To: <009601beddfe$0de51060$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: > I assume your netmasks are 255.255.255.0, and you don't have a default > gateway set? I believe that ppp0 is the default gateway on my p166. > Could also be bad cable, hub, etc... I've pretty much ruled this out. > What about other traffic of a tcp nature rather than udp - such as telnet, > ftp, etc... of course making sure these services are enabled in inetd.conf > (followed by a sighup to inetd)? Trying 192.168.1.2... telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: No route to host > Are you sure the ip information is really set on the sun (ie. what does > ifconfig -a show, is the interface marked up, etc.?)?? Yes. I can ping it from another box. Thanks, Kevin From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 17:40:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: oops In-Reply-To: <003401beddfc$3e28a220$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Francois wrote: > I think I forgot to attach the photo. Here it is. Definately not a > masterpiece. Oh come now. I think its simply *smashing*! :) "oops" indeed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 17:43:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: <199908032218.PAA04940@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Tom Owad wrote: > >BTW, I also have a tempest Macintosh 512K, and a tempest HP inkjet > >printer. I guess I now have enough stuff to create a collecting > >subcategory :) > > What's your tempest Mac 512K like, Sam? > > Is it similar to the one I've got at > ? Nice web page! But no, mine looks nothing like that. Mine is actually inside the original Mac case, with the shielding built into it. I think I can dig mine out of my warehouse and snap a few photos. I'll keep that in mind next time I go over there. Here's another one like yours: http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~hl/c.Tempest.Mac.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 3 17:53:41 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: oops In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I think I forgot to attach the photo. Here it is. Definately not a > > masterpiece. > > Oh come now. I think its simply *smashing*! > :) I think it's a great dress. Smashing indeed. Maybe I should use it as my wallpaper... nah, I prefer the grey and black hashes in X. Kevin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 15:34:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001001beddeb$582f4ae0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 3, 99 02:04:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 520 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990803/0c0856e5/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 3 18:44:41 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: References: <37A70877.A92D4618@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990803184441.45872260@mailhost.intellistar.net> >On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Marvin wrote: > >> If it has a hard drive, it was probably not used as a Tempest machine. The Wrong! Lots of Tempest machines have hard drives. I suppose now they all do. We used lots of them at work and most had hard drives. BUT the drives were removed and dissolved in acid as a security measure when the machines were taken out of service or when the project ended. If you have one that has a hard drive then the drive was replaced or that machine never went into a secure area. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 18:13:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: paper tape winding - suggestions???!?! In-Reply-To: <007d01beddf7$94fb2460$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Aug 3, 99 04:31:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990804/a1ecf3f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 17:55:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair In-Reply-To: <990803164409.2a6000c3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 3, 99 04:44:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 746 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990803/a737848b/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 3 18:46:17 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: WAY Off Topic : routing Message-ID: <005b01bede0a$626862c0$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... >I believe that ppp0 is the default gateway on my p166. ppp0? I'm a freebsd person myself, not linux, but isn't ppp0 the SLIP/PPP interface over a serial connection? I thought we were talking ethernet here... >Trying 192.168.1.2... >telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: No route to host Aha... How can you have an IP address/subnetmask on the interface without getting a network (192.168.1.0) route via your ethernet interface? Since there's no route to the host, just show us the output of a "netstat -rn" (that's a - r n not a -m) on each machine and that will show the problem for sure. Also, in your configuration I would suggest not running any routing daemon (routed, gated, etc.) - they'll just get in the way. Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 18:59:31 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: paper tape winding - suggestions???!?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you can find a set of movie film editing "rewinds", they work MUCH better. The fancy ones have clutches, multiple gearings, and are very smooth in their operation. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 3 19:04:00 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990803184441.45872260@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: At the risk of sounding fundamentally stupid, what's a tempest machine? Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Aug 3 19:29:04 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair In-Reply-To: from "steve.lubbers@barco.com" at Aug 3, 99 02:50:30 pm Message-ID: <199908040029.RAA06757@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Steve: See my web site, http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 for drive diagnostic and troubleshooting information. Kevin > > I've been trying to bring my old RX02 drive back to life, with little > success. > > I just received a good bootable floppy, and get the same results as with all > my old disks, so now I'm looking for hardware problems. > > On a PDP-11/03, With RXV21 controller, and an RX02 drive, the RX02 > initializes, attempts to read the boot block, and crashes to ODT at 000600. > > > > In examining what my system reads as it attempts to boot, it looks like I > > read every other 128 byte chunk correctly. I haven't figured out a > pattern > > to the corrupt sections. > > > Does anyone have any RX02 diagnostics, or hardware trouble shooting tips? > > > Steve > > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Aug 3 16:06:38 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990803184441.45872260@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199908040101.VAA26989@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:04:00 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: LordTyran > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Cool IBM PC find > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > At the risk of sounding fundamentally stupid, what's a tempest machine? > > Kevin RF is 95% blocked within a metal box. Usually steel or alunium shell at ground potiental, any openings heavily metallic screened and connections points is heavily filtered. Over laps or at any 2 parts that meets is "metal" gasketed, spring fingers strips or series of closely spaced fasteners/rivets. And done in close tolerences on case work. Wizard From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Tue Aug 3 20:57:28 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: oops References: Message-ID: <000f01bede1c$b7bfbf40$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> That's it my wife is never NEVER going to touch my computer AGAIN!!!!!! The one and only Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: LordTyran To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 5:53 PM Subject: Re: oops > > > I think I forgot to attach the photo. Here it is. Definately not a > > > masterpiece. > > > > Oh come now. I think its simply *smashing*! > > :) > I think it's a great dress. Smashing indeed. > > Maybe I should use it as my wallpaper... nah, I prefer the grey and black > hashes in X. > > Kevin > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 3 20:53:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <009601bede1c$24dbfcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, I can tell you how they're related . . . it's a temporal relation, though, not a contextual one. ('nuff said?) I hit the send button at the wrong time, having inserted a piece of text in the wrong place. (I think !??). I thought better of remarking that though a number of folks, myself included, didn't particuarly like the TI 99/4, that didn't make it worthless as somebody had implied. Unfortunately, I must have overflowed the stack (mine, not the computer's) and put that other paragraph in the wrong place. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 5:04 PM Subject: Re: (no subject) >> >> Since I have their latest CD, I have all the data sheets. What I'm after is >> the information about the logic cell resources, clock drivers, routing >> resources, etc, generic to each family and not specific to a given device. >> The individual sheets seldom have that data. > >The message you're replying to seems to be talking about the TI99/4A home >computer. The above paragraph seems to be talking about some kind of FPGA >or PLD devices. Perhapes somebody can enlighten me as to how they're >related.. > >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 3 20:58:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find Message-ID: <199908040158.AA00629@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > < > > Any computer that has been hardend to not radiate _any_ EMF. The > assumption is that any signal radiated can be analysed and reconstituted > to recover the information. So shielding, LOTS of shielding is used. Ahh, Van Eck et al? Kevin From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 3 21:32:02 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: OT: Routing Message-ID: Thanks all. Problem solved. No idea what was wrong or why it didn't work. In the process of one of the reboots, it decided to talk again. Thanks to everyone that helped. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 22:41:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: IBM TPC 4 pictures Message-ID: I've posted pictures of the IBM TPC 4 for those who are interested: Shows a close-up of the extended connectors in back http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-1.jpg Shows the front of the unit http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-2.jpg Shows a close-up of the front http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-3.jpg Shows a close-up of the back connectors http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-4.jpg Shows the unit from the top with the cover removed http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-5.jpg Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Aug 3 22:46:07 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find Message-ID: <00b501bede2c$de150780$1b15883e@dangermouse> Hi, >If it has a hard drive, it was probably not used as a Tempest machine. >The TPC I have contains only two floppy drives, and my understanding >is that a tempest machine must have media that can be removed >and cannot have fixed media. I found a bunch of XTs in Tempest casings at a scrapyard in Oxfordshire about 6 years ago. All of these machines had a single 360K floppy, a pair of Bernoulli removable drives and (I think) a tape drive. No fixed media in sight! Didn't find anything other than the machines themselves though, IE no keyboards, monitors. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From ravenw at hargray.com Tue Aug 3 22:58:06 1999 From: ravenw at hargray.com (DW) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: CompuGraphics Question Message-ID: <37A7BA4D.51BAF494@hargray.com> I recently picked up a very large desktop-like computer labeled CompuGraphics MCS-100. I would like to know if anyone knows anything about this machine. I hope to turn this into a pet project, but I need some general info. Any help would be greatly apprieciated. Thanks. Darrell Watson From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 3 22:45:18 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: suggestions on backplane cleaning? (or, HP2100 continued) Message-ID: <008f01bede2b$c687c860$0101a8c0@jay> One major problem with my 2100A has been solved (sort of). I had a card that wouldn't work properly in a particular slot, finally got the bright idea to move it to a different slot (I'm using polled mode, not interrupt, so this is possible). The card works great. Problem solved? No..... In the troubleshooting process I noticed a few slots that no cards would quite work right in. I checked the back of the backplane (it is a hand-wired backplane), no loose wires, etc. After very close inspection of the backplane slots, I determined the problem is the contacts are dirty/corroded/whatever. I tried the best I could to clean the contacts inside the slot, but this is virtually impossible. I also cleaned the card edge with an eraser just to be sure. Bingo - card now works fine but only in the cleaned slot (or one that worked previously). So, given that it's a delicate hand-wired backplane, does anyone have any magic tricks for how to clean the gold contacts inside of the backplane edge card connectors? I'm afraid to experiment and looking for wisdom... :) Thanks! Jay West From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Aug 4 02:08:54 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... Message-ID: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> I need the following word defined/confirmed.... Hacker According to my dictionary, 'hack' means "to chop with exceptional force", "a violent cough", or "a horse let out out for common hire"... Same dictionary... 'hacker' "one who hacks" (no - really?....), or 'a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity' example is "A Polo hacker". I wonder which antique store I bought that dictionary from... :) Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without instruction from the original manufacturer." I also thought that the people who screwed with viruses and software and such were "crackers" (which my dictionary describes as a 'dry, thin bread substance"). Am I right? or am I just blowing smoke? ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 PS>> The reason I wanted to know was because I was going to make a web page on a couple of old serial cards that I'm making into direct-connect modems to use on a few computer that don't have HD's, and I'm just not sure what it would be classified as! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 3 23:24:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: IBM TPC 4 pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I've posted pictures of the IBM TPC 4 for those who are interested: >Shows the front of the unit >http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-2.jpg Hate to tell you this, but I think someone has replaced the original drives. The Hard Drive should be a removable disk, or did they make unclassified Tempest systems?. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 3 23:28:03 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... References: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <99080400300409.11793@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Wed, 04 Aug 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: >Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or >other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without >instruction from the original manufacturer." I've always felt that a "hacker" is the type of person who does amazing things...sometimes unusual things...with computers, perhaps making them do more than they were originally designed to do, making them jump through hoops, existing in a very symbiotic relationship with them...because that's what they love to do, and choose to do with their time. I gather that most of the folks on this list would fall into that category. -Dave McGuire From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 4 00:45:14 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: CompuGraphics Question In-Reply-To: <37A7BA4D.51BAF494@hargray.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990804014514.00960100@mail.30below.com> On or about 11:58 PM 8/3/99 -0400, DW was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >I recently picked up a very large desktop-like computer labeled >CompuGraphics MCS-100. I would like to know if anyone knows anything >about this machine. I hope to turn this into a pet project, but I need >some general info. Any help would be greatly apprieciated. Thanks. I don't know that particular machine, but I worked with (erm... I have a bad case of brainfuzz tonite, so these may not be perfect data...) a CompuGraphic PowerView 5 and 10 when I worked at a print shop for ~ 3 years (that was almost 10 years ago, so...) The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the processor, and run a specialized program for typesetting. AFAIK, they cannot run anything else... but it might be a fun project to see if you could get them to do other things. Hope you're good with x86 assembly (and maybe disassembly) as I do believe a part of the OS they used was on ROM. How much was ROM and what was booted from Floppy, I couldn't tell you... The typesetting program did have some rudimentary macro programming capabilities, though... I used these to put the computer & typesetting output machine thru it's paces -- figured out how to do a fair 60% screen with 4-point colons (:) half-spaced and offset by a (long-since forgetton) few points +/- a few quarter-points. (Needless to say, with that many characters spewing thru the data cables to do these "graphics," it didn't take long to fill up what little memory I actually had to work with for data... But hey - what are geeks for?? ;-) Anywho, on a better day, I might be able to remember more, if you remind me! Did you get any floppies or output equipment with the box? If so, they still make a decent typesetting box -- the video-output typesetting machine we had (compugraphic 8400, IIRC) worked on around 2400dpi, so you could make some really nice resume's for your friends... though it could get expensive quick for long program listings..... ;-) (though you'd have the crispest, prettiest listings on the block! ;^> ) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 23:33:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: suggestions on backplane cleaning? (or, HP2100 continued) In-Reply-To: <008f01bede2b$c687c860$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: > So, given that it's a delicate hand-wired backplane, does anyone have any > magic tricks for how to clean the gold contacts inside of the backplane edge > card connectors? I'm afraid to experiment and looking for wisdom... :) Spray some mild contact cleaner inside the slot and scrub it with a tootbrush if you can reach in that far (or remove the backplane from the chassis). Use some cleaner that preferrably evaporates over time so that none is left in the slot. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 23:36:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: IBM TPC 4 pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I've posted pictures of the IBM TPC 4 for those who are interested: > >Shows the front of the unit > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/TPC4-2.jpg > > Hate to tell you this, but I think someone has replaced the original > drives. The Hard Drive should be a removable disk, or did they make > unclassified Tempest systems?. I figured as much anyway. My guess is that someone bought this secondhand and used it for a while. I'll know for sure if I fire it up and find basic crap on the hard drive like letters and checkbook balances, etc. I'm trying to figure out if I can use a normal power cord for this, since there is a normal power cord socket on the back, or if the actual power cord is the one that attaches to that round, shielded power connecctor. My casual examinations so far have shed no light on it. I may have to tear into it a bit to figure it out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 3 23:45:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: > I need the following word defined/confirmed.... > > Hacker > > According to my dictionary, 'hack' means "to chop with exceptional force", > "a violent cough", or "a horse let out out for common hire"... > Same dictionary... 'hacker' "one who hacks" (no - really?....), or 'a person > who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity' example is "A > Polo hacker". Here's what The Hacker's Dictionary defines it as: "hacker: [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe] n. 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. 2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming. 3. A person capable of appreciating {hack value}. 4. A person who is good at programming quickly. 5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in `a UNIX hacker'. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.) 6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example. 7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations. 8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence `password hacker', `network hacker'. See {cracker}. It is better to be described as a hacker by others than to describe oneself that way. Hackers consider themselves something of an elite (a meritocracy based on ability), though one to which new members are gladly welcome. There is thus a certain ego satisfaction to be had in identifying yourself as a hacker (but if you claim to be one and are not, you'll quickly be labeled {bogus})." (from http://codeflux.com/hacker/?query=hacker) I think this is a very good definition. > Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or > other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without > instruction from the original manufacturer." This is also a functional definition, but a subset of the overall definition of a "hacker". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Aug 3 21:01:35 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199908040606.CAA03472@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Aug 99 at 0:08, Jason (the General) wrote: > I need the following word defined/confirmed.... > > Hacker > > According to my dictionary, 'hack' means "to chop with exceptional force", > "a violent cough", or "a horse let out out for common hire"... > Same dictionary... 'hacker' "one who hacks" (no - really?....), or 'a person > who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity' example is "A > Polo hacker". > > I wonder which antique store I bought that dictionary from... :) > > Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or > other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without > instruction from the original manufacturer." > > I also thought that the people who screwed with viruses and software and > such were "crackers" (which my dictionary describes as a 'dry, thin bread > substance"). > > Am I right? or am I just blowing smoke? > "Crackers" to me are people who crack code whether source in programs or encoded messages in encryption. An excellent novel that escapes my mind by " Thomas Tryon ?" about decoders in Britian during WW ll comes to mind ( very simplified description ). > ThAnX, > ///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > PS>> The reason I wanted to know was because I was going to make a web page > on a couple of old serial cards that I'm making into direct-connect modems > to use on a few computer that don't have HD's, and I'm just not sure what it > would be classified as! > > > > > lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Aug 3 21:43:52 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <199908040606.CAA03472@smtp.interlog.com> References: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199908040638.CAA27851@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 02:01:35 +0000 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Lawrence Walker" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Difinition confirmation (please read)... > On 4 Aug 99 at 0:08, Jason (the General) wrote: > > > I need the following word defined/confirmed.... > > > > Hacker Excuse me with this gross snipping... Hack is the word. Hacker is the person doing something specific in relation on specific type of action or description. Also this "hack" thing have to be in context to specific items and what is being acted on or described about. That is about all. what is the problem because reporters is not caught making negative work on the "hack" thing (right, I left 'er' out to express in general) where correct choices of words would do right and cracker is about right I think. Wizard From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Aug 4 02:50:47 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Cool IBM PC find In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990803184441.45872260@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >At the risk of sounding fundamentally stupid, what's a tempest machine? At the risk of duplication I will relate the story as I heard it years ago. Some "ham" type guy basically tells a military type guy, "Your security stuff is doo doo, let me show you something." Then he takes the guy in his van and parks across the street from some defense plant, fiddles with ham stuff and a directional antenna, and duplicates on a crt in the van the images from the crt on several different systems in the defense plant. The military guy naturally goes ape sh, er gets excited, and the result is tempest, or PC in foil, aka no rf leaves the plant. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 03:02:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Austin Goodwill has some good stuff! Message-ID: Someone in Austin might want to get down to the Goodwill Computer Works quick. Look at the stuff in this picture: http://www.austingoodwill.org/dg/compwork/nostalgi.htm This page also has pricings for vintage computers they have for sale. The Computer Works is apparently where most of the old computers that get donated to Goodwill in Austin end up. The prices are a tad inflated (in some cases unreasonable) but I'm sure you can talk them down. Let us know if you make out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 03:05:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Orange County Computer Works Message-ID: Here's the Computer Works for the Orange County area. Mike? You reading this? http://santana.ocgoodwill.org/computer_works/index.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Aug 4 05:27:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: <199908040029.RAA06757@fraser.sfu.ca> References: from "steve.lubbers@barco.com" at Aug 3, 99 02:50:30 pm Message-ID: The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT models that included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, if a bit slow, 370 mainframe emulation. Anybody every run across any of these? From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Aug 4 05:58:40 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <99080400300409.11793@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >On Wed, 04 Aug 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: >>Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or >>other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without >>instruction from the original manufacturer." AFAIK hacker comes from the journalism term "hack" writer. Basically a person who just sits down and starts banging keys without a plan etc. A non professional, even if they do have a fair amount of talent. Something of an insult, which I think just carried over to calling any type of computer misfit a hacker. Crackers were people who cracked the software protection on a product, often then uploading the "cracked" version with a splash page showing their "name" to pirate BBSs. Phreakers did stuff with the phones. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Aug 4 06:33:03 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Orange County Computer Works In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Here's the Computer Works for the Orange County area. Mike? You reading >this? > >http://santana.ocgoodwill.org/computer_works/index.html Gee whiz if you reveal all my secrets I'll never get around to editing my list and sending you a copy. ;) Various areas in the Goodwill empire have wised up to the need for a dedicated computer store with a paid staff. They still love volunteers, but the core of sales and all of management are retail experienced carreer people. Anything donated in Orange county that looks computer is supposed to go to this facility, and most of it actually does. Close to half is rejected though and goes straight to the AS-IS auction along with all the other stuff rejected by the stores. This location is also the main Goodwill sorting center, home of Goodwill Industries, and include administrative offices too I think. Don't expect to find any vintage computer stuff at the Santa Ana CA store though, as anything they can't put W95 on generally gets tossed in a bin and sold by the pound. Now raiding that bin can be fun, but be prepared to buy a whole load, or at least get the dollar volume above $50 total. Most of the items in the store I actually sell cheaper than Goodwill does, but they do sometimes have a interesting item. Austin is a bit more enlightened, but also more saavy, ie they might have it, but also be well aware of the latest eBay sales prices. Jag is the mac guy and well known for his efforts to make old macs still usefull. AFAIK the prices are firm, but I think shipping is possible, or may be possible on some items. BTW Goodwill in my experience does more damage handling items than any salvage operation I have seen yet. They separate power supplies from units, dump sorted collections of floppies into large unsorted boxes, and when I say old units get tossed into a bin, I mean tossed. Documentation is also routinely trashed since it just confuses the customer when one system has a full set of docs and another has nothing. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 4 09:02:31 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: References: <199908040029.RAA06757@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199908041203.OAA10109@horus.mch.sni.de> > The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT models that > included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, if a bit slow, 370 > mainframe emulation. Anybody every run across any of these? Heared of yes, run across no - but I realy like to have one, not only for the historic value, since I'm an old /370 die hard. Add on: there has also been a similar solution in the same time frame, from Siemens. But instead of using a ISA Bus machine (PC XT/AT) they took their PC-MX2 (Sinix (Unix V and BSD), NS 32032 CPU, Multibus) system as base for the PC-2000. The /370 alike multibus board was build around a modified 68020 - Achtung: thats _not_ an emulation, since the 68020 did get a new micro code to run native /370 objects. Well, and of course an adapted version of BS2000 (the Siemens mainframe OS). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 4 07:20:07 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: CompuGraphics Question In-Reply-To: <37A7BA4D.51BAF494@hargray.com> Message-ID: I think the Compugraphic was a photo typesetter. We have a Compugraphic IV, in rough shape. They were very pricey in their day, about $15,000 I think. On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, DW wrote: > I recently picked up a very large desktop-like computer labeled > CompuGraphics MCS-100. I would like to know if anyone knows anything > about this machine. I hope to turn this into a pet project, but I need > some general info. Any help would be greatly apprieciated. Thanks. > > > Darrell Watson > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 4 07:24:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <01bede48$363e0b80$bf8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: > I wonder which antique store I bought that dictionary from... :) > > Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or > other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without > instruction from the original manufacturer." Orginal: Hacker Very close the polo hacker example. The early computer "hackers" were often people either not trained in technical sicesnces or specifically not in computer sciences that were attempting to make computers do so task they desired or envisioned. In that context I clearly was on in the 8008 and early 8080 days as who could take college courses that didn't yet exist on microcomputer design and programming. In later years it would be perverted into the form we know now that referes to a non expert(?) whos goal it is to undermine computers generally not their own. > I also thought that the people who screwed with viruses and software and > such were "crackers" (which my dictionary describes as a 'dry, thin bread > substance"). That term was used at one time for those that were more interested in breaking system security. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 4 07:24:49 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:35 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <199908040606.CAA03472@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: You might also read The Broken Seal by Ladislaw Farago about breaking the Japanese codes. On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 4 Aug 99 at 0:08, Jason (the General) wrote: > > > I need the following word defined/confirmed.... > > > > Hacker > > > > According to my dictionary, 'hack' means "to chop with exceptional force", > > "a violent cough", or "a horse let out out for common hire"... > > Same dictionary... 'hacker' "one who hacks" (no - really?....), or 'a person > > who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity' example is "A > > Polo hacker". > > > > I wonder which antique store I bought that dictionary from... :) > > > > Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or > > other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without > > instruction from the original manufacturer." > > > > I also thought that the people who screwed with viruses and software and > > such were "crackers" (which my dictionary describes as a 'dry, thin bread > > substance"). > > > > Am I right? or am I just blowing smoke? > > > "Crackers" to me are people who crack code whether source in programs or > encoded messages in encryption. An excellent novel that escapes my mind by " > Thomas Tryon ?" about decoders in Britian during WW ll comes to mind ( very > simplified description ). > > > > ThAnX, > > ///--->>> > > -Jason Willgruber > > (roblwill@usaor.net) > > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > > > > PS>> The reason I wanted to know was because I was going to make a web page > > on a couple of old serial cards that I'm making into direct-connect modems > > to use on a few computer that don't have HD's, and I'm just not sure what it > > would be classified as! > > > > > > > > > > > lwalker@interlog.com > > Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. > t3c@xoommail.com > > Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 4 07:26:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: IBM TPC 4 pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Hate to tell you this, but I think someone has replaced the original > drives. The Hard Drive should be a removable disk, or did they make > unclassified Tempest systems?. That was not a tempest system requirement, though it could be impmented as a feature. Removeable in tempest terms meant the drive could be removed, if needed, but not always removeable media. Consider that microvaxen with standard MFM drives were delivered as tempest machines. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 4 07:34:04 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We have a 3270 machine somewhere, but I haven't gotten around to see if it's complete. IBM also issued a software package to turn their PC's into 370 terminals. On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT models that > included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, if a bit slow, 370 > mainframe emulation. Anybody every run across any of these? > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steve.lubbers at barco.com Wed Aug 4 07:29:52 1999 From: steve.lubbers at barco.com (steve.lubbers@barco.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair {Follow Up} Message-ID: Thanks All for the suggestions I've received so far. To answer a few of the additional questions that cropped up: I've had the drive for about 11 years. About 5 years ago it worked correctly, so I'm assuming that internal switch settings are correct (though I don't have a reference to verify them), and the controller/drive match. I have a huge collection of disks, some marked RX01, some RX02, none will boot. I am currently working with an RX02 disk that was used to boot another PDP-11, then sent to me. I checked that both drive belts are in place, and used a scope on the photo transistor that detects the hole. The drive RPM was correct. tony- This would help >>>There are some things you can try. Firstly (if you have the programming >>>info - if not I'll find it), you can try transfering 256 bytes from the >>>PDP11 to the sector buffer and then transfering it back again (without >>>going via the disk). This will test most of the controller logic and the >>>sector buffer RAM. My guess is that this will fail. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: steve.lubbers@barco.com [mailto:steve.lubbers@barco.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:51 AM >>> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >>> Subject: RX02 Repair >>> >>> >>> I've been trying to bring my old RX02 drive back to life, >>> with little >>> success. >>> >>> I just received a good bootable floppy, and get the same >>> results as with all >>> my old disks, so now I'm looking for hardware problems. >>> >>> On a PDP-11/03, With RXV21 controller, and an RX02 drive, the RX02 >>> initializes, attempts to read the boot block, and crashes >>> to ODT at 000600. >>> >>> >>> > In examining what my system reads as it attempts to boot, >>> it looks like I >>> > read every other 128 byte chunk correctly. I haven't >>> figured out a >>> pattern >>> > to the corrupt sections. >>> >>> >>> Does anyone have any RX02 diagnostics, or hardware trouble >>> shooting tips? >>> >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 4 07:41:20 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:34:04 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > We have a 3270 machine somewhere, but I haven't gotten around to see if > it's complete. IBM also issued a software package to turn their PC's > into 370 terminals. I have a PC/3270, which is an IBM PC modified to turn it into a 3270 terminal. A new keyboard interface is used to connect it to a 3270 keyboard, and there's a special screen, too. It came with a manual and disks for the terminal emulator software. But no, I don't have a handy IBM/370 to plug it into for testing! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From steve.lubbers at barco.com Wed Aug 4 07:38:50 1999 From: steve.lubbers at barco.com (steve.lubbers@barco.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair Message-ID: Tony, Thanks for the suggestions, I'll see what I can see tonight. I have a copy of the RX02 Field Maintenance Print sets, so I can follow what you are describing. I don't think I have a spare 2102, but could get one easy enough. I didn't think of the load/dump sector buffer approach. That sounds like I good idea! Any programming help you have would be great! I was trying to figure out how to get a logic analyzer, but your idea will use the drive to diagnose itself. I posted a follow-up on the mailing list. Essentially, as you said, the disk does spin. I even checked the rotational speed. Plus/minus my scope's accuracy, it is spinng OK. I've cleaned the heads, but didn't go any further with mechanical adjustments. I was assuming that a drive sitting in a box didn't fall out of adjustment too far, and given that it reads a good portion of the data correctly, I thought I would probably make things worse. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 1:43 PM >>> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >>> Subject: Re: RX02 Repair >>> >>> >>> > >>> > I've been trying to bring my old RX02 drive back to life, >>> with little >>> > success. >>> > >>> > I just received a good bootable floppy, and get the same >>> results as with all >>> > my old disks, so now I'm looking for hardware problems. >>> > >>> > On a PDP-11/03, With RXV21 controller, and an RX02 drive, >>> the RX02 >>> > initializes, attempts to read the boot block, and crashes >>> to ODT at 000600. >>> >>> I am going to assume that this is a double-density disk >>> (and thus has 256 >>> byte sectors) and that the DIP switch inside hasn't been >>> moved since it >>> last worked on an RXV21 (I can't find the info quickly, or >>> I'd tell you >>> how to set it). >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > > In examining what my system reads as it attempts to >>> boot, it looks like I >>> > > read every other 128 byte chunk correctly. I haven't >>> figured out a >>> > pattern >>> > > to the corrupt sections. >>> > >>> > >>> > Does anyone have any RX02 diagnostics, or hardware >>> trouble shooting tips? >>> >>> >>> Argh!. Fixing an RX02 is a lot worse than fixing an RX01 (I've done >>> both). The RX01 has an internal diagnostic connector that >>> you plug an >>> KM11 into. You can then single-step the microcode, >>> halt-on-error, etc. >>> >>> Anyway, back to the RX02. The controller is the upper board >>> in the drive >>> unit. Undo the screws and hinge it up. On it there's a microcoded >>> processor based on 3 2909 sequencers and 2 2901 ALUs, 1K of >>> ROM and a lot >>> of TTL glue. There's also a 2K bit sector buffer based on 2 >>> off 2102 RAMs. >>> I can talk you through it if you can get the printset. >>> >>> >From the fault, I suspect that most of it is working >>> correctly (most of >>> the logic is the same for all bits in the sector), and that >>> the most >>> likely problem area is the sector buffer and/or its address counter. >>> >>> There are some things you can try. Firstly (if you have the >>> programming >>> info - if not I'll find it), you can try transfering 256 >>> bytes from the >>> PDP11 to the sector buffer and then transfering it back >>> again (without >>> going via the disk). This will test most of the controller >>> logic and the >>> sector buffer RAM. My guess is that this will fail. >>> >>> Now look at the siganls to E56 (a 2102 RAM that's the high >>> half of the >>> sector buffer). Does it ever get enabled (pin 13 goes low)? >>> Check back to >>> E29f (74LS04) if not. If that inverter is OK, then suspect >>> the address >>> counter (E63, E57, E51). >>> >>> Also suspect E56 itself (this is the most likely problem, >>> actually). If >>> you have a spare 2102-1, it may be worth replacing it. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > Steve >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -tony >>> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 4 10:20:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: suggestions on backplane cleaning? (or, HP2100 continued) In-Reply-To: <008f01bede2b$c687c860$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990804102051.2317d288@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:45 PM 8/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >So, given that it's a delicate hand-wired backplane, does anyone have any >magic tricks for how to clean the gold contacts inside of the backplane edge >card connectors? I'm afraid to experiment and looking for wisdom... :) > Jay, I use an old IBM 80 col punch card and fold it in half and wet with alcohol and work in in and out of the socket. If it's a loose fit then fold in half again. If it's too big, then cut it down to size with scissors. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 4 10:32:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: IBM TPC 4 pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990804103219.230f35d2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:26 AM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >> Hate to tell you this, but I think someone has replaced the original >> drives. The Hard Drive should be a removable disk, or did they make >> unclassified Tempest systems?. AFIK there's no requirement for or against removeable drives or media. I do know that a lot of security managers don't like machines that have removeable drives or media because even well intentioned employees may be tempted to copy their data/program and take it and use it on another machine that may not be tempest secure. FWIW that's the claim of the defense in the trial of the US scientist that is currently charged with selling nuclear secrets to the Chinese. i.e. he only copied the data to use it on another computer (outside the secure area) and that he did not sell it to the chinese. Joe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 4 12:48:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990804014514.00960100@mail.30below.com> References: <37A7BA4D.51BAF494@hargray.com> Message-ID: <199908041549.RAA24887@horus.mch.sni.de> > The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the > processor, and run a specialized program for typesetting. AFAIK, they > cannot run anything else... but it might be a fun project to see if you > could get them to do other things. Hope you're good with x86 assembly (and > maybe disassembly) as I do believe a part of the OS they used was on ROM. > How much was ROM and what was booted from Floppy, I couldn't tell you... 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 4 10:56:47 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <199908041549.RAA24887@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:49:28 +1 Hans Franke wrote: > > The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the > > processor, ... > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. The first laptop PC that I ever used was a dual-floppy system called the Tava Flyer. It had an 80186 CPU, but I can't remember how fast. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 11:12:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT models that > included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, if a bit slow, 370 > mainframe emulation. Anybody every run across any of these? Yes, I have one in my collection. We also had a discussion about these machines maybe 10 weeks back or so. You may want to search the CC archives. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 11:14:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > AFAIK hacker comes from the journalism term "hack" writer. Basically a > person who just sits down and starts banging keys without a plan etc. A non > professional, even if they do have a fair amount of talent. > > Something of an insult, which I think just carried over to calling any type > of computer misfit a hacker. No, the term was being used by computer dorks and the media picked up on it when they started to report on computer misfits doing mischievous things. > Crackers were people who cracked the software protection on a product, > often then uploading the "cracked" version with a splash page showing their > "name" to pirate BBSs. I called these guys "pirates". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 4 11:24:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <003b01bede95$c6812b80$0400c0a8@winbook> The only 'xt-type machine I have kept since the "old days" when such things were common, is a "Challenger" motherboard (made ??? but sold through an outfit in Boston) which was a 10MHz '186 as the processor in the 'XT architecture. It had some 16-bit slots, though I never checked them out for functionality, since there were few devices suitable for that. Since the integrated peripherals could be relocated to an "out of the way" location that was almost the first thing that happened in the ROM code. I've held onto one just in case I ever needed to develop something for a '186 again. That and the '188 and the NEC V-40 and V-50 were my favorites of the time. I liked those built-in memory selects that allowed you to build a system with almost no glue logic. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) > >> The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the >> processor, and run a specialized program for typesetting. AFAIK, they >> cannot run anything else... but it might be a fun project to see if you >> could get them to do other things. Hope you're good with x86 assembly (and >> maybe disassembly) as I do believe a part of the OS they used was on ROM. >> How much was ROM and what was booted from Floppy, I couldn't tell you... > >186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste >than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 4 11:22:32 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <990804122232.2aa000b3@trailing-edge.com> > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. Every DEC TQK50/TUK50 (Q/U-bus TK50 tape drive interface) has an 80186 on it. I've also seen them as drive controllers on several different brands of SCSI drives. They seem to be rather common in the device/embedded market. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 11:24:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <199908041549.RAA24887@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the > > processor, and run a specialized program for typesetting. AFAIK, they > > cannot run anything else... but it might be a fun project to see if you > > could get them to do other things. Hope you're good with x86 assembly (and > > maybe disassembly) as I do believe a part of the OS they used was on ROM. > > How much was ROM and what was booted from Floppy, I couldn't tell you... > > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. Other 80186 computers include: Mindset (1984) Hmmm, I thought I had references to more in my notes. Guess not, but I know there are at least a couple more notable ones. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Aug 4 11:27:35 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 Message-ID: <802567C3.005A4126.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > We have a 3270 machine somewhere, but I haven't gotten around to see if > it's complete. IBM also issued a software package to turn their PC's > into 370 terminals. > > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT models that >> included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, if a bit slow, 370 >> mainframe emulation. Anybody every run across any of these? I don't think the 3270PC was what Mike meant. There was a PC with a couple of boards in it that became a self contained machine running the 370 instruction set. It was intended as a 3270 variant, though - developers would download their code to the PC, debug it on the local processor, and upload the next version, freeing the big machine (of which many companies had only one, after all) for users who wouldn't grab oodles of processor time with an incorrectly terminated loop or whatever. I, like Hans, have never come across one of these, although I heard of them back at IBM in '85 or '86. But I recall a rumour from another source that the 370 emulation was based on the 68000 circuitry but with custom microcode. These machines would run VM but not MVS, I think. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 4 13:31:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: References: <199908041549.RAA24887@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908041632.SAA26591@horus.mch.sni.de> 7F00,0000,0000> On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:49:28 +1 Hans Franke > < wrote: > > > The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the > > > processor, > ... > > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > The first laptop PC that I ever used was a dual-floppy > system called the Tava Flyer. It had an 80186 CPU, but I > can't remember how fast. I guess 6 MHz, since this was the starting selection. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 4 13:31:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <990804122232.2aa000b3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199908041632.SAA26582@horus.mch.sni.de> > > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > Every DEC TQK50/TUK50 (Q/U-bus TK50 tape drive interface) has an 80186 on it. > I've also seen them as drive controllers on several different brands > of SCSI drives. They seem to be rather common in the device/embedded > market. Shure, the 186 was ment as an embeded system, but as PCs, they rer quite rare. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 4 13:31:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <003b01bede95$c6812b80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908041632.SAA26585@horus.mch.sni.de> > The only 'xt-type machine I have kept since the "old days" when such things > were common, is a "Challenger" motherboard (made ??? but sold through an > outfit in Boston) which was a 10MHz '186 as the processor in the 'XT > architecture. It had some 16-bit slots, though I never checked them out for > functionality, since there were few devices suitable for that. > > Since the integrated peripherals could be relocated to an "out of the way" > location that was almost the first thing that happened in the ROM code. > I've held onto one just in case I ever needed to develop something for a > '186 again. That and the '188 and the NEC V-40 and V-50 were my favorites > of the time. I liked those built-in memory selects that allowed you to > build a system with almost no glue logic. Jep, thy have been quite versitale... -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 4 11:34:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <004901bede97$2e229980$0400c0a8@winbook> My very first 'x86 machine was based on a board called a "Slicer" which later was offered as a two-board system. It had a 6 MHz '186 and enough of those weird stackable memory sockets which allowed you to put two 16-pin RAM packages in what was essentially a single 18-pin site, to accomodate 128K-bytes of the 64K DRAMS. It provided a little serial I/O and little else other than the FDC. The add-on card, which was offered later, had a SCSI port and some parallel I/O (?) It's been a long time, but I think it added another 128K bytes of RAM. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Honniball To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 10:08 AM Subject: Re: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) > >On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:49:28 +1 Hans Franke > wrote: >> > The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the >> > processor, >... >> 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste >> than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > >The first laptop PC that I ever used was a dual-floppy >system called the Tava Flyer. It had an 80186 CPU, but I >can't remember how fast. > >-- >John Honniball >Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk >University of the West of England > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 4 11:37:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <005401bede97$ac1c0ce0$0400c0a8@winbook> The '18x series was the first, and possibly last, evidence I ever saw that Intel could build something fairly sensible. I think the '18x series was designed for military applications, originally. The disk-drive applications I've seen normally use the '188, since they offer byte-wide interfaces up to the EIDE types. It's entirely conceivable that the '186 was used as well. I saw one on a WD ESDI controller for the PC. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: RE: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) >> 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste >> than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > >Every DEC TQK50/TUK50 (Q/U-bus TK50 tape drive interface) has an 80186 on it. >I've also seen them as drive controllers on several different brands >of SCSI drives. They seem to be rather common in the device/embedded >market. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 4 11:39:27 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <199908041549.RAA24887@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: I think the British Railways ticket machines were 80186 based. On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > The machines I worked on were dual-floppy based, 1 Meg RAM, 80186 for the > > processor, and run a specialized program for typesetting. AFAIK, they > > cannot run anything else... but it might be a fun project to see if you > > could get them to do other things. Hope you're good with x86 assembly (and > > maybe disassembly) as I do believe a part of the OS they used was on ROM. > > How much was ROM and what was booted from Floppy, I couldn't tell you... > > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From elvey at hal.com Wed Aug 4 11:42:20 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: suggestions on backplane cleaning? (or, HP2100 continued) In-Reply-To: <008f01bede2b$c687c860$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <199908041642.JAA12510@civic.hal.com> "Jay West" wrote: ---snip--- > > So, given that it's a delicate hand-wired backplane, does anyone have any > magic tricks for how to clean the gold contacts inside of the backplane edge > card connectors? I'm afraid to experiment and looking for wisdom... :) > > Thanks! > > Jay West Hi Jay Although this sound counter intuitive, I suggests you get a tube of silicone grease ( Dow Corning's DC#4 is good stuff and available at many electrical supply shops ). You put the grease in the connector. Slide the card in and out several times and you'll have good contact. I've used the stuff for years on flaky contacts with good results. In the long term, the grease doesn't dry out and it protects the contacts from oxidation and moisture. Since silicone grease is such a poor lubricant, it tends to work like cutting oil in that it helps in cleaning the contact to make good electrical contact. It also works well to improve contact on those power supply pins that tend to over heat. I don't recommend cleaning gold contacts with erasers. This is a poor long term solution because once the gold layer is broken, electrolytic action between the layer underneath will make a poor contact over time. If you must clean these, use some type of cleaning solvent like automotive break clean ( a nasty dry cleaning fluid, us in ventilated areas only ). Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 4 11:44:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <990804122232.2aa000b3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > > Every DEC TQK50/TUK50 (Q/U-bus TK50 tape drive interface) has an 80186 on it. > I've also seen them as drive controllers on several different brands > of SCSI drives. They seem to be rather common in the device/embedded > market. Since it was aimed specifically at the embedded controller market, that's no surprize. It didn't do well as an 8088/8086 upgrade as the peripherals on chip were not PC compatable though they are better than the PC implmentations. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 4 12:00:07 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990804095805.00b3b380@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> An old IBMmer buddy of mine has both the IBM 3270 card and the AT/370 board set, he had them set up a single user VM system for a while. And yes, it was extremely slow. A typical BAL job took roughly 45 minutes to run. It would be very interesting to get s System 370 emulator written for a modern Pentium III! --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Aug 4 11:23:32 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990804112332.231f36ae@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just saw an IBM 3279 keyboard for sale on E-OverPay in case anyone's interested. It's at "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=139929837" Joe At 01:41 PM 8/4/99 +0100, you wrote: > >On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:34:04 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > wrote: >> We have a 3270 machine somewhere, but I haven't gotten around to see if >> it's complete. IBM also issued a software package to turn their PC's >> into 370 terminals. > >I have a PC/3270, which is an IBM PC modified to turn it >into a 3270 terminal. A new keyboard interface is used >to connect it to a 3270 keyboard, and there's a special >screen, too. It came with a manual and disks for the >terminal emulator software. > >But no, I don't have a handy IBM/370 to plug it into >for testing! > >-- >John Honniball >Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk >University of the West of England > > From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Wed Aug 4 08:11:14 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 Message-ID: <000001bede9d$468e1160$614c883e@dangermouse> Hi, >The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT >models that included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, >if a bit slow, 370 mainframe emulation. Anybody every run >across any of these? Yes, I can't get at it right now but I picked up an XT/370 a few years ago at a radio rally. Unfortunately the machine had been fairly comprehensively rebuilt with a '286 motherboard and some sort of half height hard drive (despite having a full height "IBM" hard drive front plate on the front). I managed to get the original motherboard (broken expansion connector) and tape streamer out of the guy, but the monitor, keyboard, cards, etc were already gone.... :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Aug 4 12:43:47 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:34:04 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" > wrote: >> We have a 3270 machine somewhere, but I haven't gotten around to see if >> it's complete. IBM also issued a software package to turn their PC's >> into 370 terminals. > >I have a PC/3270, which is an IBM PC modified to turn it >into a 3270 terminal. A new keyboard interface is used >to connect it to a 3270 keyboard, and there's a special >screen, too. It came with a manual and disks for the >terminal emulator software. > >But no, I don't have a handy IBM/370 to plug it into >for testing! Thats just it, the cards I mention allow full mainframe versions of programs to run on the PC's. Here is a clip from an exchange in the newsgroup. The easy way to do this is to look for a 9371. This is a repackaged mod 80 with the 370 cardset, a couple of ARTIC cards and 2-4 320m SCSI drives that look like DASD. The machine will probably have VSE loaded on it if it wasn't purged. The load sequence is it boots a PCDOS looking system and at a certain point you will see VSE, CICS and some application code load. You will use the native PC monitor until the CICS loads then you will have a VSE console on the 0,0 ARTIC port. State farm dumped about 17, 000 of these a few years ago through a company in New Jersey so they should still be around somewhere. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 4 13:11:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <006501bedea4$cafaf600$0400c0a8@winbook> I've been persuaded (by a couple of the guys who worked on the Boca-Raton development of the PC) that Intel provided them with a prototype board used in the development of the '188 and that it became the hardware model for the PC motherboard. It's hard to dispute, considering that the timers, DMAC's, etc would have been prototyped using "real" hardware. That would also explain some of the stupidity surrounding interrupts on the PC. Not even IBM would have done something so silly as to use positive-going interrupts, except perhaps out of fear that fixing it would break something. They were on a tight schedule, you know. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 10:55 AM Subject: RE: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) > >> > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste >> > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. >> >> Every DEC TQK50/TUK50 (Q/U-bus TK50 tape drive interface) has an 80186 on it. >> I've also seen them as drive controllers on several different brands >> of SCSI drives. They seem to be rather common in the device/embedded >> market. > >Since it was aimed specifically at the embedded controller market, that's >no surprize. It didn't do well as an 8088/8086 upgrade as the peripherals >on chip were not PC compatable though they are better than the PC >implmentations. > >Allison > From g at kurico.com Wed Aug 4 13:24:52 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: MacCharlie Message-ID: Longshot here but ... Anyone happen to have the software for this guy? Of course Dayna was of no use (esp now that they've been sucked up by Inhel). Also pinouts for the connecting serial cable would be nice, though I believe it just uses a standard (for the early Macs) serial cable. TIA George From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Aug 4 13:35:48 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Austin Goodwill has some good stuff! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908041831.NAA01742@trailingedge.com> AFAIK prices are firm. It isn't often that I find much of interest there but once in a while I'll locate something nice. Like the TRS- 80 Model 16B with 2 big boxes of doc and software for $9.99. The lady called her manager over to make sure I wasn't changing prices on them. She couldn't believe that a computer THAT big was only $10.00. Most of the items I pick up there are just bits and pieces or software or books. They are good if you are looking for an older Mac or PC. But nobody else needs to go there. Stay away. ;-) On 4 Aug 99, at 1:02, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Someone in Austin might want to get down to the Goodwill Computer Works > quick. Look at the stuff in this picture: > > http://www.austingoodwill.org/dg/compwork/nostalgi.htm > > This page also has pricings for vintage computers they have for sale. The > Computer Works is apparently where most of the old computers that get > donated to Goodwill in Austin end up. > > The prices are a tad inflated (in some cases unreasonable) but I'm sure > you can talk them down. > > Let us know if you make out. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From red at bears.org Wed Aug 4 13:47:43 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > > Other 80186 computers include: > > Mindset (1984) The first Convergent NGEN workstations were 80186 based, and offered in 6 and 8 MHz flavours. I have one of the 8 MHz models. This would have been ca. 1985. Later on they were updated through 80286 and 80386 models, as well as 80486 I would expect. Then if I read the history correctly, they took a strange evolutionary tangent and became an emulation process under Windows NT on a vanilla Pentium PC. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:11:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: suggestions on backplane cleaning? (or, HP2100 continued) In-Reply-To: <008f01bede2b$c687c860$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 3, 99 10:45:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 566 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990804/84b5b9f2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:14:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <99080400300409.11793@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 4, 99 00:28:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990804/7e258560/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:52:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: RX02 Repair In-Reply-To: from "steve.lubbers@barco.com" at Aug 4, 99 02:38:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990804/155f00a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:56:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <990804122232.2aa000b3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 4, 99 12:22:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990804/96815e2a/attachment.ksh From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Aug 4 14:45:14 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Austin Goodwill has some good stuff! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990804144514.0094a100@207.207.0.212> Sellam, That picture is of their "museum shelves". They won't sell that stuff to people (I've tried!). For good stuff, you have to watch. They REGULARLY throw away nice old 8-bit machines, drives, monitors, printers and etc. which they won't sell to the public. They KILL ME! I know several of the guys and I tell them that I'll take all TRS-80 stuff off their hands and other old 8-bit machines but, they won't save it and I end up doing dumpster diving to get it. They are a good bunch but, they listen to "the home office" too much about how to dispose of equipment. (I know for a fact that they get 3cents per pound for scrap metal and me buying one VIC-20 for $1.00 would cover 30lbs!) ARGH!!! A At 01:02 AM 8/4/1999 -0700, you wrote: > >Someone in Austin might want to get down to the Goodwill Computer Works >quick. Look at the stuff in this picture: > >http://www.austingoodwill.org/dg/compwork/nostalgi.htm > >This page also has pricings for vintage computers they have for sale. The >Computer Works is apparently where most of the old computers that get >donated to Goodwill in Austin end up. > >The prices are a tad inflated (in some cases unreasonable) but I'm sure >you can talk them down. > >Let us know if you make out. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Aug 4 14:49:53 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 &188 computers Message-ID: In a message dated 8/4/99 9:25:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > > Other 80186 computers include: > Tandy 2000 I believe. Many, many of intel's early Multibus I cards used the 186 & 188 chips, either as a processor or peripheral support. Paxton From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 14:52:04 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <199908041632.SAA26582@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <990804122232.2aa000b3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990804145204.01139040@vpwisfirewall> At 06:32 PM 8/4/99 +1, Hans Franke wrote: > >Shure, the 186 was ment as an embeded system, but as PCs, they rer quite rare. I quit a job back in '85 or so, when they threatened to make me write '186 assembler all day for a standalone device. - John From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Aug 4 17:00:10 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Austin Goodwill has some good stuff! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990804144514.0094a100@207.207.0.212> References: Message-ID: <199908042156.QAA02559@trailingedge.com> On 4 Aug 99, at 14:45, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > That picture is of their "museum shelves". They won't sell that stuff to > people (I've tried!). You and me both. > For good stuff, you have to watch. They REGULARLY throw away nice old > 8-bit machines, drives, monitors, printers and etc. which they won't sell > to the public. They KILL ME! I know several of the guys and I tell them > that I'll take all TRS-80 stuff off their hands and other old 8-bit > machines but, they won't save it and I end up doing dumpster diving to get Hmm, I might have to start dumpster diving there. I bought a TRS- 80 Model 1 monitor from them once but forget what I paid. Also saw a very dirty model 1 sitting there which I passed on. They're not the only place to throw out the older 8-bits. I found a new (at least to me) place and went in to talk with the owner. I told him I pick up old computers and he said, "like 286s?" I said no older than that. To which he asked did I mean like Commodore 128s? I said yes and even older. He said he chunks those and any old books as soon as he gets them. Anything older than a 386 or 486 goes straight to the trash. I tried to tell him there was a growing interest in them but he didn't seem to be interested in dealing with them. Oh well, another dumpster to keep an eye on. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Aug 4 17:43:58 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Bernoulli stuff Message-ID: <199908042243.SAA28919@platy.cs.unc.edu> X-No-Archive: yes Hey all, I just scored a handful of Bernoulli Box stuff: four cartridges and some manuals and floppy disks. If you are interested, the details are listed on my "for trade" web page, at this URL: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/fortrade.html Cheers, Bill. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Aug 4 17:07:18 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Years back... I did a paper on "hackers" for a Computer Sociology class a few years ago. In my research, I came across some really interesting articles that, even in 1984 (when they were written), were arguing what the real definition of "hacker" is. They described the early MIT "hackers", many of whom became so wrapped up in their projects that they never bothered to fulfill their degree requirements. And those who were breaking into sophisticated, secure systems for the pure joy and challenge. And those committing all kinds of crimes with their particularly malicious kind of genius. So people didn't really know what a hacker was 15 years ago either. As I recall, the term "cracker" came from that guy who's name I never remember (my mind is like a sieve) that used the handle "The Cracker" - the one who broke into and then set up accounts and private forums on systems for his buddies - on Compuserv, right? I can see the hands of half the people reading this shooting up to shout his name... There's been a lot of PC-thug pressure to make "hacker" into some kind of superhero working for the good of society and the pure love of computing and make "cracker" into some kind of maniac bent on the senseless destruction of innocent computers everywhere. Then the issue is clouded further by other terms like script-kiddies, cypherpunks, etc. On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > I wonder which antique store I bought that dictionary from... :) > > > > Here's my definition: "One who adapts an existing piece of computer (or > > other type) of hardware to suit one's needs or to improve it without > > instruction from the original manufacturer." > > Orginal: Hacker > > Very close the polo hacker example. The early computer "hackers" were > often people either not trained in technical sicesnces or specifically not > in computer sciences that were attempting to make computers do so task > they desired or envisioned. In that context I clearly was on in the 8008 > and early 8080 days as who could take college courses that didn't yet > exist on microcomputer design and programming. > > In later years it would be perverted into the form we know now that > referes to a non expert(?) whos goal it is to undermine computers > generally not their own. > > > I also thought that the people who screwed with viruses and software and > > such were "crackers" (which my dictionary describes as a 'dry, thin bread > > substance"). > > That term was used at one time for those that were more interested in > breaking system security. > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 4 18:32:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990804163012.03f936a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The term 'cracker' was created to denote people who used their computer skills to "crack" passwords, "crack" copy protection schemes on software, and then used that ill gotten information for fame and sometimes profit. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 4 18:42:35 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There never used to be any "argument". The term is NEUTRAL. There is no implication of criminal, nor "hero", merely an indication of expertise and temperament. The term "cracker" does not derive from any one individual's "handle", but merely referred to one who "cracked" security. But then, in the VERY recent past (what is now being called "years back" or "long ago"), the news media (a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes), first encountered pranksters, vandals, etc. getting involved with computers. The miscreants that they encountered called THEMSELVES "hackers", simply as a boastful self-appellation. The news people were simply too dumb to understand, or maybe assumed that the only possible outlet of genious would be criminal. People like Levy in his "Hackers" book tried to explain, but by 1984 it was too late. Note: the mafia call themselves "businessmen". Do we now associate the word "businessmen" with criminal behavior? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Years back... > > I did a paper on "hackers" for a Computer Sociology class a few years ago. > In my research, I came across some really interesting articles that, even > in 1984 (when they were written), were arguing what the real definition of > "hacker" is. They described the early MIT "hackers", many of whom became > so wrapped up in their projects that they never bothered to fulfill their > degree requirements. And those who were breaking into sophisticated, > secure systems for the pure joy and challenge. And those committing all > kinds of crimes with their particularly malicious kind of genius. So > people didn't really know what a hacker was 15 years ago either. > > As I recall, the term "cracker" came from that guy who's name I never > remember (my mind is like a sieve) that used the handle "The Cracker" - > the one who broke into and then set up accounts and private forums on > systems for his buddies - on Compuserv, right? I can see the hands of half > the people reading this shooting up to shout his name... > > There's been a lot of PC-thug pressure to make "hacker" into some kind of > superhero working for the good of society and the pure love of computing > and make "cracker" into some kind of maniac bent on the senseless > destruction of innocent computers everywhere. Then the issue is clouded > further by other terms like script-kiddies, cypherpunks, etc. From cureau at centuryinter.net Wed Aug 4 18:56:38 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... References: Message-ID: <37A8D336.B5DA03E8@centuryinter.net> I know it's off topic, but I can't reisist... > Note: the mafia call themselves "businessmen". Do we now associate > the word "businessmen" with criminal behavior? Apparently, you've never met the two bosses I've had before this job. ;-) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Aug 4 14:55:21 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199908042359.TAA07506@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Aug 99 at 9:12, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > > The PS/2 newsgroup has been talking about the AT and XT models that > > included a pair of cards that allowed fairly complete, if a bit slow, 370 > > mainframe emulation. Anybody every run across any of these? > > Yes, I have one in my collection. We also had a discussion about these > machines maybe 10 weeks back or so. You may want to search the CC > archives. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com And as I mentioned in the last discussion on the 3270 machines, I have a monitor for them that is available. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From elvey at hal.com Wed Aug 4 19:14:42 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908050014.RAA12593@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > Note: the mafia call themselves "businessmen". Do we now associate > the word "businessmen" with criminal behavior? You mean businessmen like Bill Gates? Dwight From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Aug 4 19:20:21 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:36 2005 Subject: MacCharlie Message-ID: <545c09cb.24da32c5@aol.com> In a message dated 8/4/99 2:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, g@kurico.com writes: << Anyone happen to have the software for this guy? Of course Dayna was of no use (esp now that they've been sucked up by Inhel). Also pinouts for the connecting serial cable would be nice, though I believe it just uses a standard (for the early Macs) serial cable. TIA >> there used to be a website for old mac drivers which is where i found the setup disk for the computereyes video capture card in my mac II. i coulda swore it was macdrivers.com, but coming up 404 on that one. you might want to try here -> http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/index.html From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Aug 4 19:09:28 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Time marches on... "The Cracker" that I was trying to remember is Bill Landreth, aka "The Teenage Computer Wizard Who Was Apprehended by the FBI." And it wasn't Compuserv, it was the GTE Telemail system. The book is called "Out of the Inner Circle" by Mr. Landreth himself. And yes, Steven Levy's book "Hackers" is what the MIT stuff that I wrote about came from. I think we've talked about it on the list before, no? The best argument for the "hackers use the good side of the force" crowd... I know this isn't a sci-fi list, but Gibson's Neuromancer has had something to do with shaping the public's image of what a "hacker" is...Case, sending his neural essence through the global matrix to "hack" systems...espionage, intrigue, dark, sinister... All you have to do is read Slashdot or Wired news for a week and you'll get overloaded by the hacker vs. cracker terminology war. Aaron On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > There never used to be any "argument". > The term is NEUTRAL. There is no implication of criminal, nor "hero", > merely an indication of expertise and temperament. > > The term "cracker" does not derive from any one individual's "handle", but > merely referred to one who "cracked" security. > > But then, in the VERY recent past (what is now being called "years back" > or "long ago"), the news media (a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be first > against the wall when the revolution comes), first encountered pranksters, > vandals, etc. getting involved with computers. The miscreants that they > encountered called THEMSELVES "hackers", simply as a boastful > self-appellation. The news people were simply too dumb to understand, or > maybe assumed that the only possible outlet of genious would be criminal. > People like Levy in his "Hackers" book tried to explain, but by 1984 it > was too late. > > Note: the mafia call themselves "businessmen". Do we now associate > the word "businessmen" with criminal behavior? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > Years back... > > > > I did a paper on "hackers" for a Computer Sociology class a few years ago. > > In my research, I came across some really interesting articles that, even > > in 1984 (when they were written), were arguing what the real definition of > > "hacker" is. They described the early MIT "hackers", many of whom became > > so wrapped up in their projects that they never bothered to fulfill their > > degree requirements. And those who were breaking into sophisticated, > > secure systems for the pure joy and challenge. And those committing all > > kinds of crimes with their particularly malicious kind of genius. So > > people didn't really know what a hacker was 15 years ago either. > > > > As I recall, the term "cracker" came from that guy who's name I never > > remember (my mind is like a sieve) that used the handle "The Cracker" - > > the one who broke into and then set up accounts and private forums on > > systems for his buddies - on Compuserv, right? I can see the hands of half > > the people reading this shooting up to shout his name... > > > > There's been a lot of PC-thug pressure to make "hacker" into some kind of > > superhero working for the good of society and the pure love of computing > > and make "cracker" into some kind of maniac bent on the senseless > > destruction of innocent computers everywhere. Then the issue is clouded > > further by other terms like script-kiddies, cypherpunks, etc. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 4 20:54:49 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <199908050014.RAA12593@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > > Note: the mafia call themselves "businessmen". Do we now associate > > the word "businessmen" with criminal behavior? > You mean businessmen like Bill Gates? I'm reminded that a cabbie in Vegas once told me that there is no mafia in Las Vegas - they're too scared of Shelley Adelson. (Same one that Vardon was calling Alderson) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 20:59:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 &188 computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > Other 80186 computers include: > > > Tandy 2000 I believe. Oh yes, you are correct. I knew I had at least one other machine with a '186. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 4 21:03:36 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 &188 computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some models of the Ampro little board? Quark? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 21:03:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I did a paper on "hackers" for a Computer Sociology class a few years ago. > In my research, I came across some really interesting articles that, even > in 1984 (when they were written), were arguing what the real definition of > "hacker" is. They described the early MIT "hackers", many of whom became > so wrapped up in their projects that they never bothered to fulfill their > degree requirements. And those who were breaking into sophisticated, > secure systems for the pure joy and challenge. And those committing all > kinds of crimes with their particularly malicious kind of genius. So > people didn't really know what a hacker was 15 years ago either. Well, I give priority to first use, which goes to the MIT Hackers. All that adopted the term subsequently are just posers. > There's been a lot of PC-thug pressure to make "hacker" into some kind of > superhero working for the good of society and the pure love of computing > and make "cracker" into some kind of maniac bent on the senseless > destruction of innocent computers everywhere. Then the issue is clouded > further by other terms like script-kiddies, cypherpunks, etc. I think this comes out of the offense taken by those whom consider themselves hackers in the real and original sense. I guess they have a point. But those in the know will always be able to differentiate between a hacker and some other loser. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Aug 4 21:11:16 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: MacCharlie In-Reply-To: <545c09cb.24da32c5@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Aug 4, 99 08:20:21 pm" Message-ID: <199908050211.WAA00640@hefalump.home.org> > In a message dated 8/4/99 2:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, g@kurico.com > writes: > > << Anyone happen to have the software for this guy? Of course > Dayna was of no use (esp now that they've been sucked up by > Inhel). Also pinouts for the connecting serial cable would be nice, > though I believe it just uses a standard (for the early Macs) serial > cable. > > TIA >> > > there used to be a website for old mac drivers which is where i found the > setup disk for the computereyes video capture card in my mac II. i coulda > swore it was macdrivers.com, but coming up 404 on that one. you might want to > try here -> > http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/index.html Try: http://members.xoom.com/macdrivers From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 4 21:23:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > "The Cracker" that I was trying to remember is Bill Landreth, aka "The > Teenage Computer Wizard Who Was Apprehended by the FBI." And it wasn't > Compuserv, it was the GTE Telemail system. The book is called "Out of the > Inner Circle" by Mr. Landreth himself. Man, forgot all about that book. I've been loooking for a copy for a long time now. Anyone know where to find a one? Two gougers on ABE want $40+ for the book. Interestingly enough it was published by Microsoft Press. > And yes, Steven Levy's book "Hackers" is what the MIT stuff that I wrote > about came from. I think we've talked about it on the list before, no? The > best argument for the "hackers use the good side of the force" crowd... This book is an excellent read, and if I were to recommend any book to this list it would be that one. I've read it twice in the past ten years and am due for another reading soon. It has specific chapters on Steve Wozniak and Apple, Lee Felsenstein and The People's Computer Company, Sierra Online, and of course the early computer days at MIT. Simply excellent. > I know this isn't a sci-fi list, but Gibson's Neuromancer has had > something to do with shaping the public's image of what a "hacker" > is...Case, sending his neural essence through the global matrix to "hack" > systems...espionage, intrigue, dark, sinister... Another great book. I can't wait for the movie, which I heard rumors about years ago. Hacker movies are the only thing keeping Keanu Reeves employed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 4 21:59:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU: Handler Question Message-ID: OK, as long as I don't run into any unforseen trouble that keeps me from having time, I plan on installing RT-11 on a large disk in the next few days. However, I won't be using the nice WQESD ESDI controller that I've got that makes partitioning disks easy. So I want to make sure I understand how partitioning works under RT-11. If I'm reading the manuals correctly I would first boot off of my RL02 pack and do the following .INIT/BADBLOCKS DU0: then .SQUEEZE/OUTPUT=DU0: DL1: .COPY/BOOT DL1:RT11FB.SYS DU0: and then boot the system from DU0: So far that's pretty straight forward, and except for using SQUEEZE to copy the distribution, pretty much the way I got it from RX50 to RL02. Now then since I'll want to use more than just the first 30Mb of the Hard Drive, I'll need to set up partitions. Do I do this prior to initializing DU0: or after booting from a freshly installed DU0:? I realize the command to do the partitioning is: .SET DU0 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=0 .SET DU1 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=1 .SET DU2 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=2 .SET DU3 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=3 Also I assume that a partition has to be 65,535 blocks, but does the last one have to be that, or will it simply be however much space is left? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 4 22:13:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... Message-ID: <199908050313.AA07208@world.std.com> The current useage of hacker now is not the same as say 1984 and very different fro the 1975 thinking. It's evolutionary term. It's gone from a term that more about exprimentation and intutive design to a very negative pastime. Allison From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Wed Aug 4 18:54:50 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <000001bedef2$06948080$ee5b883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >....Research Machines (a UK computer company who sold >machines for schools mostly) made a 80186 version of the >Nimbus. They certainly did, we still had a bunch of them at East B'Ham College when I worked there in '97. Mind you we also had a bunch of Beebs and some Apple ][s...!! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 4 22:38:42 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <199908031429.QAA17570@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <000901bedef4$038fe120$ad711fd1@5x86jk> sounds like my investment in Timex was ok after all, I purchased several of them from K-mart at closeout a few years back. Cost then was $25 each and they have never been out of the boxes. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 10:30 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: (no subject) > > > > I have a Texas Instruments T1-99/4A computer and related books > for it and I > > also have a Sinclair 1000 with related books. Can you tell me > if they are of > > value and/or use to anyone out there ? > > Well, Value ? This is _very_ dependant on the condition and the > situation (and of course, as always, on the buyer 'need':). > > A 99/4A can range from USD 2,- (just the unit in used condition) > up to USD 30-70 (New, unused, original packed, never opened with > no damages on the box). PS: The white units may score way higher > in Europe, since they never where sold in masses over here. PPS: > a Ti 99/4 (no A) will also range higher, especialy when in mint/ > unused condition. > > A Timex/Sinclair may earn you USD 2-5 (used, with PS) or score > a whooping USD 50,- as a new never opened box. > > Well, it's up to you. > > Any use for the old stuff ? Again personal choice - run the old > games etc ... or just collect them (belive me, there are some > realy wiered guys (and gals) out there :). > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 4 22:47:45 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 &188 computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Some models of the Ampro little board? Ampro LittleBoard/186. > Quark? - don From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 4 22:14:37 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey L Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <19990804.233751.-8091.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:49:28 +1 "Hans Franke" writes: > 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste > than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. You bet! There are at least two more '186 machines nobody mentioned. ANyone remember the MAD 186? It was kinda like a mindset, but the innards were different. TELEX also marketed a rebadged version of the MAD computer-- the TELEX 1186. I used to have one of these (I think I still have the PSU/FDD unit around here someplace). Two more rarely seen machines are the 3Com 3Server, and 3Server3's. They both used 80186 CPU's (some guy at 3Com explained that they used it because the chips built-in dual DMAC's gave good disk I/O performance). Anyways, these beasts used a highly customized version of MS-dos, which ran 3Com's LAN software. They were strictly servers-- these things had no on-board video; you had to use a terminal to see what was going on, if it refused to boot (which was often). It was a seriously cool box in 1986. I still have the software for it around here someplace . . . I'm sorry I scrapped mine in 1993. Jeff > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mbg at world.std.com Wed Aug 4 23:49:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU: Handler Question Message-ID: <199908050449.AA18355@world.std.com> >OK, as long as I don't run into any unforseen trouble that keeps me from >having time, I plan on installing RT-11 on a large disk in the next few >days. However, I won't be using the nice WQESD ESDI controller that I've >got that makes partitioning disks easy. So I want to make sure I >understand how partitioning works under RT-11. Doesn't it do the partitioning in hardware anyway? Of course that is easy... they become separate units... >If I'm reading the manuals correctly I would first boot off of my RL02 >pack and do the following > >.INIT/BADBLOCKS DU0: > >then > >.SQUEEZE/OUTPUT=DU0: DL1: >.COPY/BOOT DL1:RT11FB.SYS DU0: That should be .SQUEEZE/OUTPUT:DU0: DL1: .COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0: >and then boot the system from DU0: So far that's pretty straight >forward, and except for using SQUEEZE to copy the distribution, pretty >much the way I got it from RX50 to RL02. Squeeze is a faster way of doing the copy when the output volume is a freshly initialized volume. You could do it with a COPY/SYS... >Now then since I'll want to use more than just the first 30Mb of the Hard >Drive, I'll need to set up partitions. Do I do this prior to >initializing DU0: or after booting from a freshly installed DU0:? There are a number of factors involved... you need to ensure that the partitioning in the DU driver you are using to write to the DU device is the same as the DU driver which gets written *to* that device. If not, you could write the data just fine, but not be able to find it easily. An example of this might be having a specially-partitioned XM version of the DU driver. You use it to copy a system to some other partition, but you set it to boot RT11FB (which uses a different copy of DU -- the one built for SB/FB) and then boot the volume... when it gets up far enough that it tries to use the FB version of the handler, it references an entirely different partition. >I realize the command to do the partitioning is: > >.SET DU0 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=0 >.SET DU1 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=1 >.SET DU2 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=2 >.SET DU3 UNIT=0,PORT=0,PART=3 Personally, I like to think more hierarchically, doing the PORT, then UNIT, then PARTition. But yes, this could work. I also tend to keep the DU0-DU3 devices mapped to partition zero of the corresponding physical units: .SET DU0 PORT=0,UNIT=0,PART=0 .SET DU1 PORT=0,UNIT=1,PART=0 .SET DU2 PORT=0,UNIT=2,PART=0 .SET DU3 PORT=0,UNIT=3,PART=0 and then assign the non-zero partitions to DU4-DU7 (this is with a handler without the extended unit support, of course). >Also I assume that a partition has to be 65,535 blocks, but does the last >one have to be that, or will it simply be however much space is left? It is automatic. All partitions other than the final one will be 65536 (not 65535) blocks in size. The last one will be whatever is leftover (total_size % 65536). BTW - although the partitions are 65536 blocks in size, the last block is reserved, so the effective size is 65535. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Aug 4 23:56:55 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: New arrival... (s)? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990804215655.033d6984@agora.rdrop.com> Well, it just goes to prove once again that not all of the rocks have been turned over. Based on a recent tip from another collector, I've managed to knock one more item off of the Computer Garage 'Most Wanted' list with the arrival of an IMSAI dual floppy disk sub-system. No software or docs with it, but that just adds to the adventure! B^} Something about the unit suggests that the previous owner ran CP/M on it, but as to just what that clue is I will leave without explaination. (that way you have to look at the pictures) The images are immediately post-unpacking, so the unit has not been cleaned, checked out, or powered up... but its here!!! Hmmm... I wonder if there is a copy of IMSDOS buried around here somewhere??? And hopefully (if Murphy does not interfere) by the end of the weekend yet another item will be struck from the list! Stay Tuned!! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Aug 5 02:56:52 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... Message-ID: <01bedf18$14449280$748ea6d1@the-general> O.K. I think that sorta clears things up a bit. I guess my little 'direct modem' could be considered a hardware hack. Although, don't hacks usually work?? :) ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Aug 5 02:58:14 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Pinouts needed Message-ID: <01bedf18$451b9fc0$748ea6d1@the-general> Hi! Does anyone have the pinouts of both a a 25-pin and a 9-pin serial connection? I need to know which pins on the 9-pin correspond to the pins of the 25 pin. ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From hhacker at home.com Thu Aug 5 00:42:17 1999 From: hhacker at home.com (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... Message-ID: <0f6401bedf05$489d6e20$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> The term CRACKER is as old a the railroads, if not much older than that: it was used in the 1800's (and to some degree, this usage remains today) to refer to those persons with a nack for entering a safe without permission! Forget your history, and you are doomed to relive it! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Difinition confirmation (please read)... >The term 'cracker' was created to denote people who used their computer >skills to "crack" passwords, "crack" copy protection schemes on software, >and then used that ill gotten information for fame and sometimes profit. >--Chuck > From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 5 00:41:06 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Pinouts needed In-Reply-To: <01bedf18$451b9fc0$748ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: > Hi! > > Does anyone have the pinouts of both a a 25-pin and a 9-pin serial > connection? > > I need to know which pins on the 9-pin correspond to the pins of the 25 pin. > > ThAnX, > ///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > ==================================================================== Alternate Asynchronous Adapter Connector Male 9=Pin D-Sub, cable requires female. DB9 I/O Description DB25 1 < DCD (Data Carrier Detect) 8 2 < RX (Receive Data) 3 3 > TX (Transmit Data) 2 4 > DTR (Data Terminal Ready) 20 5 GND (Signal Ground) 7 6 < DSR (Data Set Ready) 6 7 > RTS (Request To Send) 4 8 < CTS (Clear To Send) 5 9 < RI (Ring Indicator) 22 ==================================================================== - don From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 01:08:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <199908050313.AA07208@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > The current useage of hacker now is not the same as say 1984 and very > different fro the 1975 thinking. It's evolutionary term. It's gone from > a term that more about exprimentation and intutive design to a very negative > pastime. Maybe for the mass media and the consumers that take it all in. Not for me. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 5 01:13:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU: Handler Question In-Reply-To: <199908050449.AA18355@world.std.com> Message-ID: >>days. However, I won't be using the nice WQESD ESDI controller that I've >>got that makes partitioning disks easy. So I want to make sure I >>understand how partitioning works under RT-11. > >Doesn't it do the partitioning in hardware anyway? Of course that is >easy... they become separate units... Yes, the WQESD does the partitioning in the Hardware. Kinda handy as it allows multiple bootable RT-11 partitions, OR multiple bootable OS's. >That should be > .SQUEEZE/OUTPUT:DU0: DL1: > .COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0: Whoops, manual even says that on the copy I see. I guess I literally need my eyes checked as I read the COPY/BOOT wrong. >Squeeze is a faster way of doing the copy when the output volume is >a freshly initialized volume. You could do it with a COPY/SYS... Ah, OK I understand, the COPY/SYS is how I've done it previously. >There are a number of factors involved... you need to ensure that the >partitioning in the DU driver you are using to write to the DU device >is the same as the DU driver which gets written *to* that device. If >not, you could write the data just fine, but not be able to find it >easily. Now is this the same specific copy of DU.SYS? In other words should I be booting off RL, setting the partitions, then init'ing the drives, then copying? Or is this simply saying that DU.SYS vs. DUX.SYS will have problems? >An example of this might be having a specially-partitioned XM version of >the DU driver. You use it to copy a system to some other partition, >but you set it to boot RT11FB (which uses a different copy of DU -- the >one built for SB/FB) and then boot the volume... when it gets up far >enough that it tries to use the FB version of the handler, it references >an entirely different partition. Based on this I gather it's not a good idea to switch between monitors once you have the disk set up? Terrific. Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 01:12:43 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <19990804.233751.-8091.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Jeffrey L Kaneko wrote: > You bet! There are at least two more '186 machines nobody mentioned. > ANyone remember the MAD 186? It was kinda like a mindset, but the > innards were different. TELEX also marketed a rebadged version of the > MAD computer-- the TELEX 1186. I used to have one of these (I think > I still have the PSU/FDD unit around here someplace). Oh yeah! That's right. A MAD computer was exhibited at last year's VCF. A MAD 5000 (VME system running UNIX) will be exhibited this year. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 01:15:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Pinouts needed In-Reply-To: <01bedf18$451b9fc0$748ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: > Does anyone have the pinouts of both a a 25-pin and a 9-pin serial > connection? > > I need to know which pins on the 9-pin correspond to the pins of the 25 pin. Try this URL: http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/pinouts/serial/ Cross reference the data in the first two files. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 01:17:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <0f6401bedf05$489d6e20$0c990518@CC275574-A.flrtn1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > The term CRACKER is as old a the railroads, if not much > older than that: it was used in the 1800's (and to some > degree, this usage remains today) to refer to those > persons with a nack for entering a safe without permission! > > Forget your history, and you are doomed to relive it! You white boys is all crazy! Everyone knows a "cracker" is just another term for whitey. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 03:03:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Tempest Macintosh pictures Message-ID: Here are some photos I took of my tempest Macintosh. There's nothing particularly extraordinary about this machine unless you look at the details. I didn't get any photos of the inside because this thing is a total bitch to take apart. It took me about half an hour just to get the back cover off when I first cracked it open. It's not because of the hex screws or anything like that. This thing has a metal housing built into the case, with a bunch of finely machined screws holding everything together. To take the back cover off requires undoing more than just the standard hex screws. The nubs on the I/O connectors also have to be removed. Anyway... Back side of the unit. Note the toggle switch which replaces the old on/off switch. The knob below it is a fuse holder. Note the power cord is now permanently attached to the unit. The back I/O connector panel has been cutout and then re-attached with new cutouts to reduce the holes where emissions could escape. This panel is laced with a metal mesh. A CRT brightness control has been added to the left of the battery holder (the battery cover is missing). The small cover screwed into the case on the left side is where the slot for the security device used to be. http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac1.jpg Front of the machine. Nothing unusual except for the square slot cutout where the keyboard RJ14 connector used to be. A close-up view is coming up to show how the keyboard attaches. http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac2.jpg Side view. Guess what? That slot is another Sony 3.5" floppy that has been installed internally. The slot has been manually cutout. http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac3.jpg The backside label enlarged so you can read it. The manufacturer (or rather re-manufacturer) is Systematics General Corporation of Sterling, Virginia (a wholly owned subsidiary of Atlantic Research Corporation). I mentioned this on the list when I first got this unit sometime in 1997 I believe (or early in 1998). I paid $10 for it. http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac4.jpg A close-up of the keyboard connector. It attaches to the unit via the modular plug. Then the panel screws on to the front of the machine. The duct tape looking piece of material is a metallic mesh that prevents leakage of emissions. Note the brass gasket attaching the shielded cable to the keyboard housing. The metal box on the back covers the old keyboard connector. http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac5.jpg Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From cdrmool at interlog.com Thu Aug 5 03:25:26 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Morrow Pivot AC adapter- what Voltage?? Message-ID: <000b01bedf1c$1293b160$220014d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> I found a Morrow Pivot at a thrift shop and it gives conflicting information as to the voltage needed to run it. One spot says 12 and the other says 15. What is the Volt/amp needed? Any other info on it would be appreciated. TIA colan From gram at cnct.com Thu Aug 5 04:05:30 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > vandals, etc. getting involved with computers. The miscreants that they > encountered called THEMSELVES "hackers", simply as a boastful Most crackers are wannabee hackers and give themselves undeserved honors. This is covered a few times in ESR's jargon file aka _The New Hacker's Dictionary_. > self-appellation. The news people were simply too dumb to understand, or > maybe assumed that the only possible outlet of genious would be criminal. News people are normally stupid. Note their continuing support for victim disarmament laws that they call "gun control". > People like Levy in his "Hackers" book tried to explain, but by 1984 it > was too late. Once a "news person" swallows a bullshit term, the whole herd grabs it and it pollutes the language for (at least) decades. > Note: the mafia call themselves "businessmen". Do we now associate > the word "businessmen" with criminal behavior? Well, ask your nearest demopublican (or republicrat) congressthing. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Thu Aug 5 04:44:51 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I know this isn't a sci-fi list, but Gibson's Neuromancer has had > something to do with shaping the public's image of what a "hacker" > is...Case, sending his neural essence through the global matrix to "hack" > systems...espionage, intrigue, dark, sinister... Of course, back in those days in the early 80s, Gibson had never touched a computer and knew nothing about how they worked, let alone communications and networking. He knew almost as much about computers as Edgar Rice Burroughs knew about Africa when ERB wrote the first Tarzan novel. Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Aug 5 05:02:48 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 References: <199908042359.TAA07506@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <37A96148.8E81AF84@digiweb.com> Just browsing through my browser bookmarks, as you do, I came across this: "IBM 370 option XT and AT emulation boards $25.00 " at Are these the real thing? Of course they could be option boards for 370 systems to make them emulate an XT or an AT ;-). Interesting in either case Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 5 09:08:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 &188 computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908051209.OAA15409@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Other 80186 computers include: > Tandy 2000 I believe. Well, the 8018x computers (read PC alike stuff) I know are the MAD, the Philips Yes, the SIEMENS PC-D (9781D) ant the Nimbus. All of these are Full MS-DOS and BIOS compatible, but only partly hardwarecompatible (or not at all like the PC-D) There should also be an Amstrad model, but I haven't seen any further info. The Altos 486 is based on the 186, Also some ATARI arcade machines. BTW: check http://x86.org/intel.doc/186Manuals.html for docu. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Aug 5 07:13:17 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: INMOS part numbers for special purpose trams Message-ID: <37A97FDD.F53A09F3@olf.com> Hi, I am looking for all the various INMOS tram part numbers and their purpose. I am not interested in the compute trams, just the special purpose ones. Here is what I have so far: IMSB420 - VecTRAM (transputer + zoran array processor) IMSB421 - GPIB Tram IMSB422 - SCSI Tram IMSB431 - Ethernet Tram What are the others (ROM, DACs, Graphics, etc)? Thanks Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 5 09:13:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: <37A96148.8E81AF84@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199908051214.OAA15806@horus.mch.sni.de> > Just browsing through my browser bookmarks, as you do, I came across > this: > "IBM 370 option XT and AT emulation boards $25.00 " > at > > Are these the real thing? If anybody can veryfy this, I want one! Gruss h. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 5 08:35:38 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990805083538.011d3350@vpwisfirewall> At 05:44 AM 8/5/99 -0400, Ward Griffiths wrote: > >Of course, back in those days in the early 80s, Gibson had never >touched a computer and knew nothing about how they worked, let >alone communications and networking. Yes, I seem to remember a passage in one of Gibson's books where a computer-based AI resided in two megabytes of ROM. Now that's compact coding! - John From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 5 09:26:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <000601bedf4e$93c72e60$0400c0a8@winbook> You wouldn't want to guess what I found in the basement behind the washing machine, yesterday, would you? I think a few of the screws are missing, along with the power supply (which was a BOSCHERT switcher) which is what I was scanvenging when I last looked at the thing. If you want it, I can arrange to send it to you. (the 3COM server with the '186 running it, I mean.) regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey L Kaneko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 10:53 PM Subject: Re: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) >On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:49:28 +1 "Hans Franke" >writes: >> 186 ? Interesting ... it seams that there are way more 186 beaste >> than I have asumed... This could be a collecting theme on their own. > >You bet! There are at least two more '186 machines nobody mentioned. >ANyone remember the MAD 186? It was kinda like a mindset, but the >innards were different. TELEX also marketed a rebadged version of the >MAD computer-- the TELEX 1186. I used to have one of these (I think >I still have the PSU/FDD unit around here someplace). > >Two more rarely seen machines are the 3Com 3Server, and 3Server3's. >They both used 80186 CPU's (some guy at 3Com explained that they >used it because the chips built-in dual DMAC's gave good disk I/O >performance). > >Anyways, these beasts used a highly customized version of MS-dos, >which ran 3Com's LAN software. They were strictly servers-- these >things had no on-board video; you had to use a terminal to see what was >going on, if it refused to boot (which was often). It was a seriously >cool >box in 1986. I still have the software for it around here someplace . . >. > >I'm sorry I scrapped mine in 1993. > >Jeff > >> >> Gruss >> H. >> >> -- >> Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >> Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >> Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >> Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >> HRK > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 5 10:28:26 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: <01bedf18$14449280$748ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: > O.K. > I think that sorta clears things up a bit. I guess my little 'direct modem' > could be considered a hardware hack. YES > Although, don't hacks usually work?? :) Naaaah. Although the ones that work are usually the ones that we tell people about. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 5 10:34:56 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The current useage of hacker now is not the same as say 1984 and very > > different fro the 1975 thinking. It's evolutionary term. It's gone from > > a term that more about exprimentation and intutive design to a very negative > > pastime. > Maybe for the mass media and the consumers that take it all in. > Not for me. I know of hundreds of people who stubbornly cling to the meaning of 20 years ago. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 5 11:32:11 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990805123211.0095d760@mail.30below.com> I have a (yea, nice, broad, vague) question... Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K compliant? I'm not really into the old Clone machines, and don't really know... (and personally I couldn't care -- but we had a customer ask about them and I could really use an answer...) Anyway, there are many folks on this list more intelligent than me, and figured this is the quickest way I could get an intelligent answer to my foolish question. ;-) If no-one else is interested in this discussion, I'd be happy to take it to email only. Thanks for any help y'all can provide, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 5 11:58:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990805123211.0095d760@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K compliant? I'm not > really into the old Clone machines, and don't really know... (and > personally I couldn't care -- but we had a customer ask about them and I > could really use an answer...) Generally no but that does not mean unusable. Some will not have much trouble as the XT machines don't have a TOD clock just a tick the OS accumulates. That means the OS must be y2k... The later AT and PS/2 machines do have a TOD clock and that can have one of three bugs. Clock rolls over to 1980 and connot be set to 2000, the clock rolls over and can be set to 2000 manually and the last is if feb2000 is leap year. The only one that is severe is the cannot be set to 2000 bug. the others are merely annoying. There are plugin cards climing to fix TOD errors (JDR 49.95). Even if the hardware is fine then there are the questions for the software. The bootom line is if the machine is doing work that is not date centric no problem, should date be used it may not be a real issue depending on how it's used. The later is an app that simple does data logging and prints the current date an time. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 5 12:09:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990805123211.0095d760@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990805100734.04064f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Not running their original software they aren't. Running anything from M$ or IBM for that vintage machine (DOS 1-6.x, Win 1-3.x, OS 2) they are not Y2K compliant due to the way the BIOS and OS handle clock roll overs. --Chuck At 12:32 PM 8/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have a (yea, nice, broad, vague) question... > >Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K compliant? I'm not >really into the old Clone machines, and don't really know... (and >personally I couldn't care -- but we had a customer ask about them and I >could really use an answer...) From CordaAJ at NSWC.NAVY.MIL Thu Aug 5 12:07:10 1999 From: CordaAJ at NSWC.NAVY.MIL (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8DF7@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I just called timeline... The information they supplied me is as follows... This is a 2 card cable-connected set; One card is labeled IBM XT 1602509, The other is labeled IBM AT 6236115. No software was available for the cardset. They also suggested that I call back later (when someone with a technical background would be available...) If I find out more, I'll drop the list a note... If anyone on the list happens to have the 370 emulator cardset, it would be nice if they could check out the part numbers. BTW, they also indicated that they had quite a few of these available. -al -acorda@geocities.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Franke [mailto:Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 10:14 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: AT/370 and XT/370 > > > > Just browsing through my browser bookmarks, as you do, I came across > > this: > > > "IBM 370 option XT and AT emulation boards $25.00 " > > > at > > > > > > Are these the real thing? > > If anybody can veryfy this, I want one! > > Gruss > h. > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Aug 5 12:49:42 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy References: Message-ID: <37A9CEB6.44EEA6EE@bigfoot.com> best bet is to set the machine to a few minutes before midnight of the rollover date, then let it flop and see what you get, and then work with the operating system and software as well. I had a patch/replacement for the file manager in Win 3.1x for Y2K but otherwise I've not seen much. The only real problem I've seen is in machines that onl look for a 2 digit year when setting the calendar. All of my PS/2's work Y2K OK. allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K compliant? I'm not > > really into the old Clone machines, and don't really know... (and > > personally I couldn't care -- but we had a customer ask about them and I > > could really use an answer...) > > Generally no but that does not mean unusable. Some will not have much > trouble as the XT machines don't have a TOD clock just a tick the OS > accumulates. That means the OS must be y2k... > > The later AT and PS/2 machines do have a TOD clock and that can have one > of three bugs. Clock rolls over to 1980 and connot be set to 2000, the > clock rolls over and can be set to 2000 manually and the last is if > feb2000 is leap year. The only one that is severe is the cannot be set to > 2000 bug. the others are merely annoying. There are plugin cards climing > to fix TOD errors (JDR 49.95). > > Even if the hardware is fine then there are the questions for the > software. The bootom line is if the machine is doing work that is not > date centric no problem, should date be used it may not be a real > issue depending on how it's used. The later is an app that simple does > data logging and prints the current date an time. > > Allison From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 5 12:23:10 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: <199908051214.OAA15806@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <37A96148.8E81AF84@digiweb.com> Message-ID: >> Just browsing through my browser bookmarks, as you do, I came across >> this: > >> "IBM 370 option XT and AT emulation boards $25.00 " > >> at > >> > >> Are these the real thing? > >If anybody can veryfy this, I want one! My only hope is that EVERYONE on the whole list doesn't "verify" this and spook the seller. One request for the part numbers should be sufficient. BTW getting the boards is one thing, the software might be much harder. From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Aug 5 13:41:38 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: INMOS part numbers for special purpose trams References: <37A97FDD.F53A09F3@olf.com> Message-ID: <37A9DAE2.FE4F9E51@digiweb.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > Hi, > > I am looking for all the various INMOS tram part numbers and their > purpose. I am not interested in the compute trams, just the special > purpose ones. Here is what I have so far: > > IMSB420 - VecTRAM (transputer + zoran array processor) > IMSB421 - GPIB Tram > IMSB422 - SCSI Tram > IMSB431 - Ethernet Tram > > What are the others (ROM, DACs, Graphics, etc)? From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Aug 5 13:54:13 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 References: <199908051214.OAA15806@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <37A9DDD5.1D84CA52@digiweb.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > > Just browsing through my browser bookmarks, as you do, I came across > > this: > > > "IBM 370 option XT and AT emulation boards $25.00 " > > > at > > > > > > Are these the real thing? > > If anybody can veryfy this, I want one! Well I just talked with them. Sounds very much like it is the real thing. "Two plug-in boards connected across the top. Part numbers are: IBMXT1602509 and IBMAT6236115. No external connectors" At first they said that they had plenty in stock but then I was told that that was not the case but that I could have one if I ordered one. So I did! Don't know how many more they have.... If someone could verify the part numbers Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 5 14:10:19 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Difinition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > > > The term CRACKER is as old a the railroads, if not much > > older than that: it was used in the 1800's (and to some > > degree, this usage remains today) to refer to those > > persons with a nack for entering a safe without permission! > > > > Forget your history, and you are doomed to relive it! > > You white boys is all crazy! Everyone knows a "cracker" is just another > term for whitey. Close, but no cigar. Actually, in the deep south, it referred to a 'poor white' who may also have been characterized as 'white trash'. - don > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 12:33:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <000001bedef2$06948080$ee5b883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 5, 99 00:54:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 575 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/2f415d2c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 13:01:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: INMOS part numbers for special purpose trams In-Reply-To: <37A97FDD.F53A09F3@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Aug 5, 99 08:13:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1289 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/a624511a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 12:41:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 4, 99 11:08:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 872 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/508dbf8f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 13:15:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:37 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990805123211.0095d760@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 5, 99 12:32:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/7b999eac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 13:24:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990805100734.04064f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 5, 99 10:09:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 887 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/311ff713/attachment.ksh From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Aug 5 14:23:16 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: INMOS part numbers for special purpose trams References: Message-ID: <37A9E4A4.B59E5789@olf.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > Here are some more. I don't have any of these other than the B407, but > they're in the databook. > Thanks. I want to see if I can get more of the drivers & support software for the rest of the trams. Unfortunately, I dont have the databook :-( Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From elvey at hal.com Thu Aug 5 14:27:32 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <199908051927.MAA15260@civic.hal.com> Hi A while back, I had to come up with a clock system that would work with a simple clock chip that only went up to months but not years. The machine did have some other non-volitile memory so here is how I delt with it. I had what I called a half year counter. If when the machine turned on, the clock chip thought it was in early half of the year and the RAM said it was in the last half, I'd update the year and reset the bit. The only requirement here was that the machine had to be turned on at least once every 6 months or soemone had to reset the time. Why they couldn't have done something as simple as this for the century, I don't know. Dwight From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 5 12:51:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990805100734.04064f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990805123211.0095d760@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >>Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K compliant? I'm not Every brand of computer has a Y2K section on their website, best to refer to that for specific information. The only systems I am familiar with are several of the old 486 compaq's I have include a SIIG extended bios card that is supposed to make them Y2K compliant, and the IBM PS/2 model 95 have a bios patch for some units. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Aug 5 15:06:39 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: FS: lotus Approach 2.0 Database for Windows Message-ID: <37A9EECF.F3F2770D@bigfoot.com> Have a sealed copy of Lotus Appraoch 2.0 Database for Windows....and no use for it. It says it has both 5.25" (1.2mb) and 3.5" (1.44mb) disks. It states 286 or higher, Win 3.0 or higher, hard disk, EGA or better video, mouse, 2 mb RAM minimum.. It says it's compatible with files from dBase III & IV, Paradox, FoxPro, Oracle SQL 6.0 and SQL Server databases in native format.. It also states that's it's network compatible with Noverll Netware and Netware Lite, MS Lan Manager, Banyan VINES and LANtastic networks. Allows grpaihics imports in BMP, TIFF, PCX, WMF and EPS. $5.00 plus whatever the postage would be and it's yours. Drop me a direct note if interested. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Aug 5 15:55:15 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <52b820e4.24db5433@aol.com> every IBM machine with a bios date of 1996 or later will automagically roll over to the next century. Previous machines will simply have to have the date command invoked to set the century. I set the date on my PCjr and it accepted 01-01-2000 no problem. supr 'building my bomb shelter for y2k' dave In a message dated 8/5/99 3:56:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@netwiz.net writes: << >>Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K compliant? I'm not Every brand of computer has a Y2K section on their website, best to refer to that for specific information. The only systems I am familiar with are several of the old 486 compaq's I have include a SIIG extended bios card that is supposed to make them Y2K compliant, and the IBM PS/2 model 95 have a bios patch for some units. >> From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 5 16:36:35 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <52b820e4.24db5433@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990805143510.0407f300@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >every IBM machine with a bios date of 1996 or later will automagically roll >over to the next century. Maybe I'm too literal, I thought we were talking about specific IBM models, the PC/XT and the PC/AT which couldn't possibly have BIOS dates beyond 1990 for that matter. Not Intel Architecture PC's in general, Not clones, etc From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Aug 5 15:03:14 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <002101bedf8b$9ae68780$9706883e@dangermouse> Hi Roger, >Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K >compliant? According to a recent thread in the PS/2 newsgroup, all PS/2s should be broadly Y2K compliant, though some machines may need their times resetting on 1/1/2000 depending on the OS they're running. PC/XT class machines generally have no clock hardware in them as standard. DOS/whatever simply use a regular interrupt to update a software clock, so you need to know if the OS you're using is compliant. All AT class machines have a clock chip inside, a 14818 (or something similar, I forget), or an emulation of one. The chip only stores the last two digits on the year, so it will correctly roll over to "00" for "2000". However, what your operating system will make of that is another matter.... In each case, it all boils down to your OS. The easiest way to find out if it's compatible is to set your clock to a few minutes before midnight, December 31st and wait and see what happens when the time rolls over past midnight. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Aug 5 16:26:55 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: 3Com 3Stations Message-ID: <002201bedf8b$9bc85c00$9706883e@dangermouse> Hi Jeff, >You want some advice, eh? Okay. These beasties support >CGA or EGA (you set this up from the setup screen... Thanks, at least I know now not to fry an MDA monitor checking this out.... ;-) >....and AFAIK, I'm pretty sure they support 1mb simms. (the >later models had VGA, and supported more memory). That would make sense, wasn't the '286 limited to a total of 4Mb physical RAM (unless you added EMS)? >....worked fin for most MS-DOS appz. Yep, the fact that they're '286 based isn't a problem to me. I just want to use them under DOS for running stuff like TurboBASIC etc. >How do you make it boot? Ha. You have to have either: 3Com >3+Start server software, or 3+Open Start (for OS/2 LanMan).... Hmm, I was contemplating setting up OS/2 Warp on one of my machines....don't have LanManager though. :-( >I think I still have all of this stuff somewhere, ifn you >want it.... I'll contact you off the list about this. >....The only problem is, you'll need to dedicate a PeeCee >just to run the boot services (and whatever other network >services you want).... Well, I was thinking about having a play with networking....one of the reasons I dug the 3Com units out. :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Aug 5 16:38:39 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <002301bedf8b$9cb35840$9706883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >Thought so. I can't remmeber what my Nimbus has in it, and it's >not easy enough to get to it to find out. I _think_ it's a 186, though. Yes, they're right buggers to take apart. We had a few 286, 386SX and 386DX machines too....though I think there was only 1 machine on the site which was a DX. ISTR there was a set of patches included with DOS which you had to run on the '186 machine to switch it to operate in IBM compatible mode. >And what's wrong with Beebs or Apples? For a lot of applications >they're more useful than most PCs. Nothing....they're great machines. Just that with the way PCs have come into fashion in colleges' I was surprised to see them still in use. They were replaced just before I left there....luckily for my collection. ;-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 16:49:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: 3Com 3Stations In-Reply-To: <002201bedf8b$9bc85c00$9706883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 5, 99 10:26:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 415 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/0c288b8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 5 16:52:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <002301bedf8b$9cb35840$9706883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 5, 99 10:38:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1080 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/15aeec33/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Thu Aug 5 17:23:35 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Wanna trade? Message-ID: <01bedf91$28bd5020$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> I'm about to have an abundance of H89 systems (among others) and wonder if others are interested some light hearted swapping. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 5 17:54:22 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: New arrival... (s)? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990804215655.033d6984@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <000001bedf95$758193e0$bc731fd1@5x86jk> Great hunting, it's always feels great when you find that one item you've been looking for. will check our your web site for the pic's. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of James Willing > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:57 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: New arrival... (s)? > > > Well, it just goes to prove once again that not all of the rocks have been > turned over. > > Based on a recent tip from another collector, I've managed to knock one > more item off of the Computer Garage 'Most Wanted' list with the > arrival of > an IMSAI dual floppy disk sub-system. > > No software or docs with it, but that just adds to the adventure! B^} > > Something about the unit suggests that the previous owner ran CP/M on it, > but as to just what that clue is I will leave without explaination. (that > way you have to look at the pictures) > > The images are immediately post-unpacking, so the unit has not been > cleaned, checked out, or powered up... but its here!!! > > Hmmm... I wonder if there is a copy of IMSDOS buried around here > somewhere??? > > And hopefully (if Murphy does not interfere) by the end of the weekend yet > another item will be struck from the list! Stay Tuned!! > > -jim > > --- > jimw@computergarage.org > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 5 18:03:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Definition confirmation (please read)... Message-ID: <199908052303.AA17268@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37AA1CD6.D432DFE3@mindspring.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Here are some photos I took of my tempest Macintosh. There's nothing > particularly extraordinary about this machine unless you look at the > details. > > I didn't get any photos of the inside because this thing is a total bitch > to take apart. It took me about half an hour just to get the back cover > off when I first cracked it open. It's not because of the hex screws or > anything like that. This thing has a metal housing built into the case, > with a bunch of finely machined screws holding everything together. To > take the back cover off requires undoing more than just the standard hex > screws. The nubs on the I/O connectors also have to be removed. > > Anyway... > > Back side of the unit. Note the toggle switch which replaces the old > on/off switch. The knob below it is a fuse holder. Note the power cord > is now permanently attached to the unit. The back I/O connector panel has > been cutout and then re-attached with new cutouts to reduce the holes > where emissions could escape. This panel is laced with a metal mesh. A > CRT brightness control has been added to the left of the battery holder > (the battery cover is missing). The small cover screwed into the case on > the left side is where the slot for the security device used to be. > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac1.jpg > > Front of the machine. Nothing unusual except for the square slot cutout > where the keyboard RJ14 connector used to be. A close-up view is coming > up to show how the keyboard attaches. > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac2.jpg > > Side view. Guess what? That slot is another Sony 3.5" floppy that has > been installed internally. The slot has been manually cutout. > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac3.jpg > > The backside label enlarged so you can read it. The manufacturer (or > rather re-manufacturer) is Systematics General Corporation of Sterling, > Virginia (a wholly owned subsidiary of Atlantic Research Corporation). I > mentioned this on the list when I first got this unit sometime in 1997 > I believe (or early in 1998). I paid $10 for it. > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac4.jpg > > A close-up of the keyboard connector. It attaches to the unit via the > modular plug. Then the panel screws on to the front of the machine. The > duct tape looking piece of material is a metallic mesh that prevents > leakage of emissions. Note the brass gasket attaching the shielded cable > to the keyboard housing. The metal box on the back covers the old > keyboard connector. > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/tempmac5.jpg > Very interesting ! What were this computers used for ? Medical ? Scientific ? Know what the price of them was ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/006b93af/vcard.vcf From musicman38 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 5 18:36:52 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Sydos Puma 88 Drive References: <000001bedf95$758193e0$bc731fd1@5x86jk> Message-ID: <37AA2014.B9E3C365@mindspring.com> I just purchased a Puma 88, model: Sydos Puma 88 at the local thrift store for $12.21 It's an external 88MB Drive unit.. I has 11 Syquest 88MB Cartridges included with it. I think it is for a PC machine as some of the carts say windows on them .. It has a cable on the back with a 25 pin male connector on the end.. Not sure if it SCSI, or Parallel ? (Guessing its SCSI, but it has a small box (about the size of a atari game cart) on the connecting cable between the unit and the 25 pin male connector) Could this be a Parallel port adaptor ? Does anyone know ? Wonder where I could find a driver for it..? Anyone know wher I can get some info on this unit ? Seems to work I powered it up and it spun up to speed and I heard the head access the cartridge.. Any Ideas ? Thanks , Phil... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/d475e4dd/vcard.vcf From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 5 19:05:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: New arrival... (s)? Message-ID: <199908060005.AA24059@world.std.com> <> Something about the unit suggests that the previous owner ran CP/M on it <> but as to just what that clue is I will leave without explaination. (tha <> way you have to look at the pictures) Whyy not all the needed items are there... at least 20k of ram, IO, a disk system and the 8080 or z80 cpu. Common crate to run cpm on as it was solidly built. <> Hmmm... I wonder if there is a copy of IMSDOS buried around here <> somewhere??? Good luck! Allison From at258 at osfn.org Thu Aug 5 19:44:24 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Wang 2200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I found the name of the fellow that was interested in a Wang 2200 system, it was: Jim Battle jb@chromatic.com Now I can't remember who wanted it. Keep your stick on the ice. From musicman38 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 5 19:56:34 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Syquest Sydos Puma 88 Message-ID: <37AA32C2.FDDCBEDA@mindspring.com> Still trying to find a DOS driver to use my newly acquired Sydos Puma 88 Drive I found this information of Syquest's web site but was not able to find the drivers they mentioned. Does anyone have one of these units or know where I can find the drivers and manuals ? Thanks.. Phil http://www.syquest.com/support/tb8010.html TB8010 - SyDOS PUMA Subsystems The SyDOS PUMA 44 and 88 MB units were produced for the PC marketplace by the SyDOS division of SyQuest. SyDOS was a division of SyQuest located in Florida. Its function was to provide products for the DOS marketplace. Some of its parallel port products used the SyQuest SQ555 and SQ5110 SCSI drives in a subsystem with a parallel to SCSI adapter card, power supply, etc. This hardware interface card with the SyQuest drivers installed the SQ drives into the DOS 3.0 through 6.22 operating systems. The manufacturer of the hardware PP to SCSI interface is no longer in business. With the release of Win'95 requiring some additional hardware interface support, the PUMA units can not be updated to be Win'95 compliant. This additional hardware requirement makes the update to Win'95 real mode drivers unavailable. On some systems the PAR driver can install the PUMA unit in the DOS Compatibility mode. This greatly depends on the hardware in your PC system. The PUMA unit was developed before the release of Win'95 and the ECP/EPP hardware. Some older 486 class PCs should be able to install the PUMA units in the DOS Compatibility mode. The newer the PC, the less likely the installation will be successful. SyQuest drivers, utilities, and readme files are in our download section or ftp.syquest.com. The PUMA1.ZIP and PUMA2.ZIP files are the two files containing the driver and utilities for these units. You must use PKUNZIP to extract the driver and utilities. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/18eb49dc/vcard.vcf From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 5 20:14:21 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Syquest Sydos Puma 88 In-Reply-To: <37AA32C2.FDDCBEDA@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990805181239.03ec3470@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:56 PM 8/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Still trying to find a DOS driver to use my newly acquired Sydos Puma 88 >Drive I realize you want to use this with a DOS machine, an easier way to do that is to disassemble the drive slightly, attach a Centronics 50 to IDC 50 pin cable directly to the drive, then hook the centrontics to any ASPI compliant SCSI controller on the DOS box. Alternatively you can pull the drive out and install it in a no-name scsi case to make it look better. --Chuck From macierno at cvm.msstate.edu Thu Aug 5 21:06:22 1999 From: macierno at cvm.msstate.edu (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: subscibe Message-ID: ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From musicman38 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 5 20:37:24 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Syquest Sydos Puma 88 References: <4.1.19990805181239.03ec3470@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <37AA3C54.F403B663@mindspring.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > At 08:56 PM 8/5/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Still trying to find a DOS driver to use my newly acquired Sydos Puma 88 > >Drive > > I realize you want to use this with a DOS machine, an easier way to do that > is to disassemble the drive slightly, attach a Centronics 50 to IDC 50 pin > cable directly to the drive, then hook the centrontics to any ASPI > compliant SCSI controller on the DOS box. Alternatively you can pull the > drive out and install it in a no-name scsi case to make it look better. > > --Chuck This is a good idea, and I may just do that if I can't find that driver from Syquest. But half the fun would be to locate the driver called Puma1.zip and Puma2.zip as noted on the Syquest Website. I have looked but sofar its not found.. I really would like to play with the unit as it was originally intended, To be used as a SCSI to Parrallel port Removable Cartridge drive.. Phil... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990805/abf52504/vcard.vcf From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 5 20:49:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 Message-ID: Am I correct in assuming that when a PDP-11/44 finds that it has more than one controller in it that it can boot off of, that it drops you into the monitor, so you can select the device you wish to boot from? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 20:47:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Tempest Macintosh pictures In-Reply-To: <37AA1CD6.D432DFE3@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Phil Clayton wrote: > Very interesting ! > What were this computers used for ? > Medical ? Scientific ? I have no idea. I bought it at a surplus electronics store. > Know what the price of them was ? Nope. PS. Please snip the superfluous parts of your reply in the future. There's no need to quote the entire message for short reply. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Aug 5 21:16:19 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Old bits (still) free for the taking (UK).... Message-ID: <00c001bedfb1$c4c801c0$b928883e@dangermouse> I still have a few bits and pieces here which I want rid of ASAP....and they're getting perilously close to going in the next skip I come across.... List follows: Wang keyboard. Olivetti wide carriage daisywheel printer (from S100 based WP system) Star NB-15 wide carriage 24-pin printer Princeton Graphics EGA monitor (x2) Nixdorf VDU Televideo 950 VDU (x2) Zenith Z89 VDU The latter items would really only be good for spares, e.g. the Star Printer needs a new printhead, the Z89 is missing the video board, the TV-950s won't communicate with their keyboards, but it's all available for the cost of coming to get it. I'd rather not dump this stuff in a skip but that's where it's all headed and soon if someone doesn't take it away. I'm located in Birmingham, email me directly if interested. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Aug 5 21:31:00 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Looking for an RK05j User Message-ID: <199908060231.TAA22322@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Group: Having gotten the 11/45 in my basement operational :-) , I'm on to the next step, the attached RK05. As I start towards the next milestone I am wondering if there is anyone on the list that has a working RK11/RK05 combination going. I will likely have questions! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Aug 5 21:43:30 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Booting a PDP 11... (ah the good 'ol days) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 5, 1999 6:49:17 pm" Message-ID: <199908060243.WAA00473@pechter.dyndns.org> > Am I correct in assuming that when a PDP-11/44 finds that it has more than > one controller in it that it can boot off of, that it drops you into the > monitor, so you can select the device you wish to boot from? Nope, that depends on the dipswitch settings. You can power up boot any of the devices that you have roms for based on the dip switch setting on the bootstrap card. However, the default device is unit 0. (This can be changed by a value in the switch register). Many locations set the machine to boot drive 0 on power up so they could autoboot on power fail if the battery backup wasn't installed or the outage was too long for the 15 minutes (if that) of battery backup DEC had as an option. Some locations just droped you to the $ or @ prompt at all times so the operator would boot the machine. The $ or @ prompt was usually returned after the boot diags on rom ran and verified the machine health (basic memory, registers and I/O ok). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 5 22:37:45 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Morrow Pivot AC adapter- what Voltage?? In-Reply-To: <000b01bedf1c$1293b160$220014d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > I found a Morrow Pivot at a thrift shop and it gives conflicting information > as to the voltage needed to run it. One spot says 12 and the other says 15. > What is the Volt/amp needed? I believe its 15V but 12V should work fine too. I don't know the amperage or the polarity however. I have a supply that I use on my Pivot that's not original and has no labelling, but if I can dig it out I'll test it and let you know what the pertinents are. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From donm at cts.com Fri Aug 6 00:36:05 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs In-Reply-To: <199908052303.AA17268@world.std.com> Message-ID: I have been tinkering around with my VaxStation 2000 and a couple of TK-50Zs that I have. One is an FA and the other a GA so I am able to set them at differing SCSI node values. My thought was that I could use both on the VaxStation and use them to duplicate some tapes that are save_set(s). Apparently it cannot be done on the VS. Either unit is recognized when connected alone, but when both are connected the FA is always recognized as MUA0 and the GA is ignored. Does anyone have an explanation for this, or am I just doing it wrong? Assuming failure on the two tape approach, how might I make the duplicate tape(s) without wiping out the contents of my hard disk? It is at the moment fairly lightly loaded and may hold the save_set. The HD is an RD54 by the way and I am running VMS 5.5. Thanks! - don From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Aug 6 00:57:27 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: [Free Computer Swapmeet - Saturday, Aug. 7 - Portland] Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990805225727.03303de0@agora.rdrop.com> For anyone in the Portland, Oregon area this Saturday... ============================================================= >>Insert drumroll.wav here< >Announcing... > >The Last Tailgate Swapmeet of the Millennium!!!* > >Saturday, August 7, 1999 >The North parking lot of Oregon Electronics. From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Aug 6 02:12:25 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Looking for an RK05j User In-Reply-To: <199908060231.TAA22322@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Hi Kevin.. I have two of them attached and working on my 11/34, and three spares and one junker for parts, as well as the complete printsets and maintenance manuals. I had to spend a lot of time troubleshooting the system last summer (as you may remember from the List... the which trouble turned out to be a reversed interconnect cable between unit 0 and the Unibus. (D'OH!!) Along the way I really got to know them. Also, Tony Duell is quite the expert on the drives, and has a lot of data on them. They're actually very tractable and easy to get along with, IMHO. Also, one can repair them with a printset, a logic probe, and a good scope if alignment be needed.. I recommend getting a dual-height Unibus extender card if you need to ever work on the Unibus modules in the drives... Let me know if I can be of any help...... From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Aug 6 04:30:34 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: References: <002301bedf8b$9cb35840$9706883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 5, 99 10:38:39 pm Message-ID: <199908060731.JAA26712@horus.mch.sni.de> > > >Thought so. I can't remmeber what my Nimbus has in it, and it's > > >not easy enough to get to it to find out. I _think_ it's a 186, though. > > Yes, they're right buggers to take apart. > It's not taking it apart that's the problem - I've done things a lot > worse than that. It's getting to it in my collection. 'Uninteresting' > machines (read : most microcomputers...) get stuck behind stuff I'm > working on. Which means to get to the Nimbus I'll have to climb over a > couple of VAXen, a Zilog S8000, a Sun, etc... Well, just ask, and I'll be glad to help a fellow list member. May a 7,5t truck fit ? Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Aug 6 02:41:42 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! Message-ID: <199908060741.DAA08518@platy.cs.unc.edu> In reply to some gripe about VMS, Allison replied: ] Dumb huh, it's at least secure! ] Ok go to the netbsd site and nose around, the proceedure for breaking into ] VMS is there... Is it just me, or do those two sentences not belong so close together? :-) Bill. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 6 04:10:12 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... Message-ID: <005d01bedfeb$7dedd600$f23dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Jason Wrote: >I need a 2MB SIMM for an IBM PS/2 P70-386. I know they go in in sets of >two's, but for some reason, I have a spare SIMM that I found. Does anyone I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence detect circuitry. Hans From cdrmool at interlog.com Fri Aug 6 06:08:09 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Morrow Pivot AC adapter- what Voltage?? Message-ID: <001301bedffb$f80958a0$340214d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> Thanks Sellam, that would be great. It was an exciting find and I'm looking forward to getting on line with this. Hopefully I can change my Karma around modems in portables. Other than my Kaypro's, I've yet to get a modem in a portable or luggable to work. colan colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C@xoommail.com -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Morrow Pivot AC adapter- what Voltage?? >On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > >> I found a Morrow Pivot at a thrift shop and it gives conflicting information >> as to the voltage needed to run it. One spot says 12 and the other says 15. >> What is the Volt/amp needed? > >I believe its 15V but 12V should work fine too. I don't know the amperage >or the polarity however. I have a supply that I use on my Pivot that's >not original and has no labelling, but if I can dig it out I'll test it >and let you know what the pertinents are. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] > > From svs at ropnet.ru Fri Aug 6 06:52:45 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Searchable archive of classiccmp is available. Message-ID: <19990806155245.20392@firepower> G'day, Built with Glimpse and WebGlimpse: . There may remain some rough edges (i.e. bugs :-) -- report them, please. I'm aiming to make INFO-VAX archive search engine available on the same site (well, it's already there, but only half of year 1988 data is indexed). -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From svs at ropnet.ru Fri Aug 6 06:55:21 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: A pointer to classiccmp from an .epa.gov site Message-ID: <19990806155521.21652@firepower> G'day, While searching for existing searchable archives of classiccmp, I found : [...] Computers and electronic equipment that still work, but are obsolete, may be suitable for reuse. Check with local schools, training institutions, or non-profit organizations to find out if they accept donations of this type of equipment, or use the list of recycling options to obtain the names of organizations that will repair, consolidate, or reassemble the equipment before donating or selling it. There are a growing number of hobbyists interested in very old computers. Any machine that is "so obsolete that it can't be reused" may actually be of great interest, and potentially worth much more than its value in scrap metal. Older is better here. There is a "classic computer" mailing list at classiccmp@u.washington.edu , and more info can be found at any of these web pages: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ [...] -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Aug 6 07:24:10 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My thought was that I could use both on the VaxStation and use them to > duplicate some tapes that are save_set(s). Apparently it cannot be done > on the VS. Either unit is recognized when connected alone, but when both > are connected the FA is always recognized as MUA0 and the GA is ignored. > Does anyone have an explanation for this, or am I just doing it wrong? The drivers for VS2000 are designed assuming a single device on the scsi bus and only one tape best I know. Either that or the two being different scsi firmware are interacting in some bad way. > Assuming failure on the two tape approach, how might I make the duplicate > tape(s) without wiping out the contents of my hard disk? It is at the > moment fairly lightly loaded and may hold the save_set. The HD is an RD54 > by the way and I am running VMS 5.5. The rd54 will hold complete 5.5 image and that image can be copied to either another disk or tape(s). You would then need standalone backup to copy the image back to another rd54 is you wish. or use two vs2000s with a tape on each and DECnet running between them. Allison From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Aug 6 07:48:13 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Wanted transputer pictures for the following systems Message-ID: <37AAD98D.3FE38309@olf.com> Hi, I am looking for pictures of the following transputer systems: Cogent Research XTM Atari Transputer Workstation Commodore's Transputer Workstation (does it exist?) Meiko Computing Surface and any other transputer systems. Thanks Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Aug 6 08:29:48 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Wanted transputer pictures for the following systems References: <37AAD98D.3FE38309@olf.com> Message-ID: <37AAE34C.B038578@digiweb.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > I am looking for pictures of the following transputer systems: > Atari Transputer Workstation Pictured at > Commodore's Transputer Workstation (does it exist?) Don't recall ever hearing about his one. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 6 08:29:22 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 Message-ID: <990806092922.2aa002dc@trailing-edge.com> >Am I correct in assuming that when a PDP-11/44 finds that it has more than >one controller in it that it can boot off of, that it drops you into the >monitor, so you can select the device you wish to boot from? I think that you're asking "Does the 11/44 have a sniffer boot?" The answer to that is no. The boot device (or "boot to console") is selected by DIP switches near the actual physical boot ROM's on the M7098. See http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/ specifically, the file "1144.boot.roms", for very detailed information on identifying the boot ROM's present and how to set the DIP switches to select the appropriate one. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 6 08:33:21 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! Message-ID: <990806093321.2aa002dc@trailing-edge.com> >] Dumb huh, it's at least secure! >] Ok go to the netbsd site and nose around, the proceedure for breaking into >] VMS is there... >Is it just me, or do those two sentences not belong so close together? :-) The procedures involve having physical access to the machine's hardware. Despite what the laptop makers try to tell folks, if you've got physical access to the hardware, you can do anything you please with the data present! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Aug 6 08:45:03 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Wanted transputer pictures for the following systems References: <37AAD98D.3FE38309@olf.com> <37AAE34C.B038578@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <37AAE6DF.7611C9A1@olf.com> Hans B Pufal wrote: > Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > > I am looking for pictures of the following transputer systems: > > > Atari Transputer Workstation > > Pictured at Thanks for the site. > > > > Commodore's Transputer Workstation (does it exist?) > > Don't recall ever hearing about his one. Neither have I. I was searching through the classiccmp archives and found this: http://mail-index.nice.ru/classiccmp/data/9708/254 Totally shocked me. I want some pictures and maybe even the arcticle scanned for reference. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Aug 6 09:32:06 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: HP Timeshare BASIC OS - cool find! Message-ID: <005501bee018$75be5f40$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I got a bit of spare time to go through some of the documentation I received with my recent HP 2100 systems. I have found an incredible item in there! The notebook is about 3 inches thick. It is a training manual along with hundreds of pages of handwritten notes on the Internals of HP Timeshare BASIC. Not only does it describe all the byte by byte formats of OS tapes, SLEEP and HIB tapes, OS and user disc layouts on a sector by sector basis, but it also has diagrams of every data structure in RAM and on disc related to the internal operation of the OS. In addition, it even has over a hundred pages of detailed flowcharts on how every system module operates. These are not general flowcharts, but flowcharts written from a datastructure standpoint. These flowcharts give blow by blow descriptions of exactly what fields in every data structure are modified when that module runs and why. Not just the system modules, but every BASIC statement, user command, operator command, etc all the way down to the scheduler, mux driver, etc. With this information, one could very easily (albeit time consuming) write TSB from scratch. I'll have to scan all this and put it online for interested parties! Jay West From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Aug 6 09:35:56 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: Searchable archive of classiccmp is available. In-Reply-To: <19990806155245.20392@firepower> Message-ID: <4.1.19990806102113.00a59ae0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:52 PM 8/6/99 +0400, Sergey Svishchev said something like: >G'day, > > This is really great Sergey! I tried a few quick searches and was very pleased. > >Built with Glimpse and WebGlimpse: . >There may remain some rough edges (i.e. bugs :-) -- report them, please. However, the character set style for the msgs is just a little bit hard to read on my screen. I see it is called "windows-1251" when I bring up the page info on my browser. It's a Cyrillic 'style' of char set according to my font list. Thanks for the effort Sergey! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From bill at chipware.com Fri Aug 6 09:50:22 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:38 2005 Subject: New arrival... (s)? In-Reply-To: <199908060005.AA24059@world.std.com> Message-ID: <000c01bee01b$02555c40$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > <> Something about the unit suggests that the previous owner ran > CP/M on it > <> but as to just what that clue is I will leave without > explaination. (tha > <> way you have to look at the pictures) > > Whyy not all the needed items are there... at least 20k of ram, IO, a > disk system and the 8080 or z80 cpu. Common crate to run cpm on > as it was > solidly built. With a little squinting, there is a pretty obvious clue to the OS in some of the pictures. From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Aug 6 09:58:49 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Searchable archive of classiccmp is available. Message-ID: <01BEDFFA.AA3C01F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > This is really great Sergey! I tried a few quick searches and was very > pleased. Very nice... Why do all of the posting show "Jun 26, 1999" for the date? Steve Robertson - From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Aug 6 10:07:12 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Looking for an RK05j User Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 8/6/99 3:31:33AM, schreiben Sie: << Having gotten the 11/45 in my basement operational :-) , I'm on to the next step, the attached RK05. As I start towards the next milestone I am wondering if there is anyone on the list that has a working RK11/RK05 combination going. I will likely have questions! >> I do have a 11/34a with RK05Js operational, and I am in the process of attaching a Plessey drive to it, hopefully RK05 compatible. Maybe we run into similar problems soon ! So far, apart from a defective blower motor which needs replacement, I did not encounter any problems with the drives or the packs or the controller. John G. Zabolitzky From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 6 10:15:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <199908060741.DAA08518@platy.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Aug 6, 99 03:41:42 am Message-ID: <199908061515.IAA24643@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1044 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/dde6b8c1/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Aug 6 10:18:16 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Searchable archive of classiccmp is available. In-Reply-To: <01BEDFFA.AA3C01F0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990806111548.00a62680@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:58 AM 8/6/99 -0400, Steve Robertson said something like: > >Very nice... > >Why do all of the posting show "Jun 26, 1999" for the date? That's evidently when Sergey created the search database on his server. He might be able to suppress it if the search software will permit it. The date within each msg pulled up in the search is of course the relevant one. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 6 10:30:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: <990806092922.2aa002dc@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 6, 99 09:29:22 am Message-ID: <199908061530.IAA25579@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/5d93cbdd/attachment.ksh From thompson at athenet.net Fri Aug 6 11:02:58 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <199908061515.IAA24643@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Show me an OS that you can't break into with physical access to the system > console, and I'll show you a dangerous OS! With Operating Systems like > OpenVMS the physical security is an important part keeping that system > secure. A secure system should be locked in a computer room with mulitiple > levels of physical protection to insure that only authorized personal gain > access to it. If you want it to be truely secure, even the terminals should > be in areas with limited access. You need an IBM OS tape/CD to regain a lost root login for recent versions of AIX. Simple console access won't do. I seem to recall that various other unices running "enhanced security" option might be similar. Definitely there is a point of diminishing returns for security requirements that significantly reduce the speed of recovery after security problems. > If you can't break into the system when you have physical access to the > system, then what do you do when you forget your passwords. Remember > passwords shouldn't be written down. > > Whoops, think I missed the smiley. What can I say, I take data security > seriously! > > Zane > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Aug 6 11:23:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <199908061515.IAA24643@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > > > > In reply to some gripe about VMS, Allison replied: > > ] Dumb huh, it's at least secure! > > ] Ok go to the netbsd site and nose around, the proceedure for breaking into > > ] VMS is there... > > > > Is it just me, or do those two sentences not belong so close together? :-) > > > > Bill. As the orignal poster proved even with physical access and procedure you may still not achieve success. However, in all but the rarest cases, if you can physically touch it breaking is far more possible... VMS from anywhere else is very secure. Allison From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Aug 6 07:40:20 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... In-Reply-To: <005d01bedfeb$7dedd600$f23dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <199908061635.MAA27116@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:10:12 +1000 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Olminkhof" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... > X-To: > > > Jason Wrote: > >I need a 2MB SIMM for an IBM PS/2 P70-386. I know they go in in sets of > >two's, but for some reason, I have a spare SIMM that I found. Does anyone > > > I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. > They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence > detect circuitry. > > Hans > Maz 8MB, 1MB or 2MB simms only. Depends on processor speed: 16 used 85ns 20 ones used 80ns. 2 slots, one of them is 32bit slot that allows u to put a memory card in there to go over 16mb. There were bunch of ECA's on those P70's, check the computercraft.com about it and check that ECA's that is done on your P70. I found that my model 35 bios was not dealt with except one other ECA slot riser was dealt with. Interesting. Far easier done by replacing that notorious slow MCA hd with scsi controller and a scsi hd under 1023MB limit. That gives easier way to deal with when needs to replace that hd instead of searching out another remaining MCA hd. MCA hds is not made anymore but scsi is. Can use TI or Cyrix 486DLC or DLC2 with coprocessor set in place of stock cpu. These are very effective cpus. Every time anyone wants to talk about ibm anything please state the model and suffix. Thanks! Keep PS/2ing! Wizard From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 6 11:41:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at Aug 6, 99 11:02:58 am Message-ID: <199908061641.JAA30095@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/7eaae213/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Aug 6 11:55:11 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: <199908061530.IAA25579@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: As a (possibly) interesting side note: my 11/44 system boots into the console... not ODT, and thus presents the Operator with a partial register display and a >>> prompt. From there, I can go to ODT or boot the various devices for which ROMS are present on the UBI. For my hobby purposes, this is preferred over setting the switches to boot directly into the System Device. Cheers John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 6 12:08:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Aug 6, 99 09:55:11 am Message-ID: <199908061708.KAA31804@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/9b00487e/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Aug 6 12:35:44 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: New arrival... (s)? In-Reply-To: <000c01bee01b$02555c40$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > <> Something about the unit suggests that the previous owner ran > > CP/M on it > > <> but as to just what that clue is I will leave without > > explaination. (tha > > <> way you have to look at the pictures) > > With a little squinting, there is a pretty obvious clue to the > OS in some of the pictures. Actually, if you click on the small images so that you can view the larger ones, you should not have to squint too hard. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 6 12:55:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Searchable archive of classiccmp is available. In-Reply-To: <19990806155245.20392@firepower> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > > > Built with Glimpse and WebGlimpse: . > There may remain some rough edges (i.e. bugs :-) -- report them, please. Wow, thanks! This is an excellent tool! Finally, all that knowledge is easily retrievable. Continual thanks go to Kevan for maintaining the original archives as well! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From mark_k at iname.com Fri Aug 6 06:48:43 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Novel/Eagle NE1000 & NE2000 ethernet cards (& others) Message-ID: Hi, Recently I picked up a load of Ethernet cards (some nicer PCI bus mastering ones -- excellent for Linux etc. -- are for sale, btw). NE1000 & NE2000 --------------- Amongst these are what I believe to be Novell/Eagle Technology NE1000 and NE2000 cards. Now, I have found jumper info for these two, and got them to work on a simple two-computer peer-to-peer Windows 95 network. The NE2000 works fine. The NE1000 seems to also, except when trying to copy a 40MB file to the computer which contains the NE1000, it hangs part-way through (this happens every time). Either this is a fault, or simply a deficiency -- perhaps the other computer is sending data too fast for the NE1000 to keep up, and it gets confused? Anyway, I'd like to get the official/original drivers, documentation and diagnostic programs for these cards. I looked at http://www.novell.com/, but there seemed to be nothing there. Eagle Technology don't seem to exist any more, or don't have a web site. There appeared to be some NE1000/2000 stuff at ftp.microdyne.com, but it turns out that this is for the NE2000+, whatever that is. Does anyone know if there is some other Novell web or FTP site that has info on their ethernet cards? Here's some info about my two cards. NE1000: 8-bit ISA card. Novell warranty label has date code 2789. Text silk-screened on PCB reads BD.# 738-160-001 REV. C ASSY.# 810-160-001 REV. C NE2000: Warranty label on rear has data code 5092, says manufactured by Eagle Technology. Text silk-screened on PCB reads BD.# 738-149-002 REV. C ASSY.# 810-149-002 REV. C IBM Ethernet card FRU 48G7170 ----------------------------- I also got a couple of these. They seem quite nice, having BNC, RJ45 and AUI connectors plus two indicator LEDs. A label on the PCB reads FRU 48G7170. Both cards have boot ROMs fitted, on which a label reads 60G3312. If anyone need to make a boot ROM for this type of card, I have dumped the data from them. This card is configured using a DOS setup program. The only jumper on the card is labelled J5. Does anyone know what the purpose of the J5 jumper is? Oldest PC ethernet cards? ------------------------- Drifting slightly back on topic, which companies made the earliest ethernet cards for PCs? How much did they originally cost? -- Mark From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 6 13:00:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: A pointer to classiccmp from an .epa.gov site In-Reply-To: <19990806155521.21652@firepower> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > While searching for existing searchable archives of classiccmp, I found > : > > [...] > > There are a growing number of hobbyists interested in very old computers. > Any machine that is "so obsolete that it can't be reused" may actually be > of great interest, and potentially worth much more than its value in scrap > metal. Older is better here. There is a "classic computer" mailing list at > classiccmp@u.washington.edu , and more info can be found at any of these > web pages: Wow, considering this is a (US) government sight I am impressed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 6 13:07:07 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 Message-ID: <990806140707.2aa00306@trailing-edge.com> >> >Am I correct in assuming that when a PDP-11/44 finds that it has more than >> >one controller in it that it can boot off of, that it drops you into the >> >monitor, so you can select the device you wish to boot from? > >> I think that you're asking "Does the 11/44 have a sniffer boot?" The >> answer to that is no. The boot device (or "boot to console") is >> selected by DIP switches near the actual physical boot ROM's >> on the M7098. See >> >> http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/ >> >> specifically, the file "1144.boot.roms", for very detailed information >> on identifying the boot ROM's present and how to set the DIP switches >> to select the appropriate one. >Good job of interpreting a question when I wasn't even to sure what I was >asking. You ought to see what some of my customers come to me asking :-). > The worst part is I knew about those switches, but had forgotten >about them. Somewhere I've got written down which boot ROMs it has >installed, I know for a fact it's able to boot DL:, it has the ROMs >for DU:, and I believe it also supports TU58 and RX02, but might be wrong on >one of the last to. The URL I mention above lists all the DEC part numbers for the boot ROM's, so if you can read them off you'll figure out which ROM's you have. >So the next question would be do I have to go in and change the switch >settings on the board in order to boot something other than DL:? To *auto* boot something other than DL:, yes, you'll have to change the switch settings. From the console (">>>") prompt, you can boot any device that you have boot ROM's for (or key in the bootstrap for any device.) >Wait a minute, I see a problem here. Since the boot device is based on >switch settings, even with controllers for other devices that it can boot, >it shouldn't be dropping me to ODT should it? With just the RL controller >in the system it boots off one of the packs without skipping a beat. What did you change in the system that caused it to go from "auto boot to DL:" to its current behavior? A break in backplane continuity can make it look like the RL11 isn't present in the system, and that'll drop you out to the console prompt. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 6 13:27:07 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Novel/Eagle NE1000 & NE2000 ethernet cards (& others) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990806112427.03ece980@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Oldest PC ethernet cards? >------------------------- >Drifting slightly back on topic, which companies made the earliest ethernet >cards for PCs? How much did they originally cost? I've seen Ungerman-Bass AUI ethernet cards that were approximately $900 new. There was also a company that got bought be 3COM that had an early NIC. Perhaps one of the cooler ones would be a 3 mbit card used at PARC to talk to their network. --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 6 13:19:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: HP Timeshare BASIC OS - cool find! In-Reply-To: <005501bee018$75be5f40$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: > I got a bit of spare time to go through some of the documentation I received > with my recent HP 2100 systems. I have found an incredible item in there! > > The notebook is about 3 inches thick. It is a training manual along with > hundreds of pages of handwritten notes on the Internals of HP Timeshare ^^^^^^^^^^^ So it sounds like someone took the time to reverse engineer Timeshare BASIC? If so then cool. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 6 13:36:58 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: INMOS part numbers for special purpose trams In-Reply-To: <37A9DAE2.FE4F9E51@digiweb.com> References: <37A97FDD.F53A09F3@olf.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990806133658.0122e4a0@vpwisfirewall> At 08:41 PM 8/5/99 +0200, you wrote: > >>From The Transputer Handbook by Ian Graham and Tim King, published 1990, >page 132 I may be under the influence of time-singed neurons, but I think this is the same Tim King once associated with Metacomco and their version of the TRIPOS operating system, which was the source of the weird BCPL-isms in the early Amiga operating systems. I had a recollection he got into transputers after that... - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 12:52:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Question on booting PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 5, 99 06:49:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/258d18f5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 12:55:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Looking for an RK05j User In-Reply-To: <199908060231.TAA22322@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Aug 5, 99 07:31:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 791 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/9e4efb5e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 12:59:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Looking for an RK05j User In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Aug 6, 99 00:12:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1479 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/20ff6f0f/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 6 13:44:14 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Wanted transputer pictures for the following systems In-Reply-To: <37AAE6DF.7611C9A1@olf.com> References: <37AAD98D.3FE38309@olf.com> <37AAE34C.B038578@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990806134414.01038630@vpwisfirewall> At 09:45 AM 8/6/99 -0400, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >> > Commodore's Transputer Workstation (does it exist?) >> >> Don't recall ever hearing about his one. > >Neither have I. I was searching through the classiccmp archives and >found this: > >http://mail-index.nice.ru/classiccmp/data/9708/254 > >Totally shocked me. I want some pictures and maybe even the arcticle >scanned for reference. Yes, this is what I was thinking of. Tim King started his own transputer company. "Perry Helion" should be "Perihelion". That was its name. Helios was the OS. - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Aug 6 15:46:11 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <002101bedf8b$9ae68780$9706883e@dangermouse> Message-ID: <199908061847.UAA01726@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K > >compliant? > PC/XT class machines generally have no clock hardware in them as standard. > DOS/whatever simply use a regular interrupt to update a software clock, so you > need to know if the OS you're using is compliant. This is only true if you look at the very basic unit, but clock-cards have been popular back than. Either as single function card (rather rar) or within a multi function card. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 6 13:58:19 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Borland releases old Turbo products at no charge... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990806135819.011026e0@vpwisfirewall> Dan Gillmor points to the aforementioned Borland site, the antique C site, and histories of VisiCalc, ThinkTank, Ready and MORE. - John From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Aug 6 14:22:03 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: HP Timeshare BASIC OS - cool find! In-Reply-To: <005501bee018$75be5f40$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: > I got a bit of spare time to go through some of the documentation I received > with my recent HP 2100 systems. I have found an incredible item in there! > > The notebook is about 3 inches thick. It is a training manual along with > hundreds of pages of handwritten notes on the Internals of HP Timeshare > BASIC.... > > ...With this information, one could very easily write > TSB from scratch. I'll have to scan all this and put it online for > interested parties! That's massively cool! Far too much information like this has been lost to obscurity. Looking forward to seeing it! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 6 15:18:40 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Novel/Eagle NE1000 & NE2000 ethernet cards (& others) Message-ID: <19990806.151841.234.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> 3Com's 3C300 was their 1st PeeCee NIC, it was a big card, contrast to their later 503's and 509's which had a much higher level of integration. I'm told 3Com's very first product was a MultiBUS NIC (of which I have two). Can't seem to find the docs for it, though. OKay, for 100 bonus (bogus?) points: What were the three Com's of 3Com? Jeff On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:27:07 -0700 Chuck McManis writes: > >Oldest PC ethernet cards? > >------------------------- > >Drifting slightly back on topic, which companies made the earliest > ethernet > >cards for PCs? How much did they originally cost? > > I've seen Ungerman-Bass AUI ethernet cards that were approximately > $900 > new. There was also a company that got bought be 3COM that had an > early > NIC. Perhaps one of the cooler ones would be a 3 mbit card used at > PARC to > talk to their network. > > --Chuck > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 6 15:32:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas Message-ID: A company in Richardson, Texas wants to get rid of some fairly classic stuff. I've personally seen all this stuff, but it was almost two months ago and I've forgotten what a lot of it is. However, if you have a question about anything, please e-mail me and I'll try to get it answered for you. The price for this stuff is open ended. My guess is that in most cases they will want some token amount, or may even be happy for you to come and take it away. I'll act as the go-between so any offers you want to make should be mailed to me and I'll forward them on for you. Please include an e-mail address and a telephone number. Here is the list: Texas Instruments 1500 (1 bay) Archive tape drive 8-port TI hub Texas Instruments 1500 (8 bay) Archive tape drive 8-port TI hub Texas Instruments 300 Business System Terminal Texas Instruments Business System 300 (blows fuse after a minute) IBM PC/XT w/System/36 interface board IBM PC monochrome display IBM System/36 Desktop (Type 5364) ADP PC/AT (no P/S) ADP MAX 8500 (dead) Archive tape drive (2) 4-port networking hubs Motorola SYS3304NY151 Archive tape drive Texas Instruments System 1000 Archive 150MB tape drive TI System V Xemix 386 by SCO Manuals Texas Instruments System 1000 (3) NEC N4810II modem (2) Racal-Vadic VA212 audto-dial modem, AC adapter, cables, manuals DIS System 36 (bad hard drive) IBM monitor CITOH 8510 printer Texas Instruments Omni 800 printer Sperry IT (PC/AT with SCO Xenix) Unisys color monitor Priority will go to those who can offer local pickup, since the company doesn't want to have to deal with having to ship stuff if they can avoid it (in fact, I don't know that they even want to ship anything, but I'll find out). The company wants to ditch this stuff soon so act fast or else it might be scrapped. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 6 16:28:49 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Xenix Serial Port Question... In-Reply-To: <37AA3C54.F403B663@mindspring.com> References: <4.1.19990805181239.03ec3470@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990806172849.009aa100@mail.30below.com> Thanks to all who responded to my IBM PC XT/AT Y2K compliancy question... All of the info was very helpful. And now, for something completely different! I have a customer who's using (I think) a mediocre 486 system with an 8-port (unsure of brand) serial card linked thru RS-232 cables connected to 3 ASCII terminals and 1 computer running ProComm Plus as their small network. The terminals are still working fine, but the computer no longer connects to the server, nor could I get my Tandy200 to connect to the server thru *any* of the ports on the multi-port card. I took a working terminal and hooked it to the cable of the non-working computer, and the terminal wouldn't link, either. The cable had 7 conductors, 4 were used. I replaced 3 of the conductors on each end, no change. I used some of the now unused conductors to replace the last conductor, still no change. I tested continuity on the main conductors, no breaks or high-Z connections that I can see. Here's the strange stuff: 1) I plugged my handy-dandy overpriced Tandy RS-232 mini-tester onto each of the unused ports of the server multi-serial card -- each showed a different status. 2) Using my vast Unix/Linux knowledge, I was able to muckety-muck around the software some, and the server itself as well; and found a bajillion serial ports enabled, but I know some were for the virtual terminals, and some may be for the non-existant hardware. Question 1) Does anyone know the serial port designations for Xenix? I looked and looked, but couldn't figure it out on my own, despite the fact my mind is like a strong, steel sieve. ;-) [[Editor's note: During my muckety-mucking, I noticed that the /etc/passwd file was *world writable*... is this normal for a stock Xenix install??? That seems to be extremely poor security... especially for a dial-in capable box. :-( ]] Question 2) I found that some serial ports could be designated log-in enabled, and some were log-in disabled. If these settings are different, would that explain the differing signal status lights on my RS-232 tester? Question 3) The serial ports on the multi-serial card are already wired for null-modem capability. What do I need to do to get my Tandy200 to talk to the ports. (Yes, the ports are set up for 9600 bps, 8-N-1 and X-on/X-off, as was my Tandy. Yet, no commo happened.) I'll be on the road tonite for "civilization" - the northern boroughs(sp?) of Detroit - Lake Orion, Oxford, Clarkston, Auburn Hills, etc. If I get a chance, I now have web-mail access... will try to check my mail. Any good classic machine hotspots down there??? ;-) Thanks again for any help I receive, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 6 17:33:06 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <199908061847.UAA01726@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > > >Are the IBM/XT, IBM/AT and PS/2 computers hardware Y2K > > >compliant? > > PC/XT class machines generally have no clock hardware in them as standard. > > DOS/whatever simply use a regular interrupt to update a software clock, so you > > need to know if the OS you're using is compliant. > This is only true if you look at the very basic unit, but > clock-cards have been popular back than. Either as single > function card (rather rar) or within a multi function card. THEREFORE, The IBM XT (not clone, IBM) is compliant, but it is always possible to purchase third party aftermarket software and hardware non-compliance. From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Aug 6 18:02:40 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: HP Timeshare BASIC OS - cool find! Message-ID: <017301bee05f$c8fb9b40$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Jim; did you get my previous message about how we should settle up on the shipping on the 2nd platter? I think there was also another question in that particular email to you, but I don't recall at the moment. Just to want you to think I'm a deadbeat! Jay West -----Original Message----- From: James Willing To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 06, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: HP Timeshare BASIC OS - cool find! >On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: > >> I got a bit of spare time to go through some of the documentation I received >> with my recent HP 2100 systems. I have found an incredible item in there! >> >> The notebook is about 3 inches thick. It is a training manual along with >> hundreds of pages of handwritten notes on the Internals of HP Timeshare >> BASIC.... >> >> ...With this information, one could very easily write >> TSB from scratch. I'll have to scan all this and put it online for >> interested parties! > >That's massively cool! Far too much information like this has been >lost to obscurity. Looking forward to seeing it! > >-jim >--- >jimw@computergarage.org >The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > >>>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives > >>>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! > > From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Aug 6 18:03:53 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: oops! Message-ID: <017c01bee05f$f44c2b20$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Sorry - the last traffic was meant to be off-list. My Apologies! Jay West From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Aug 6 17:46:15 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Wanted transputer pictures for the following systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990806134414.01038630@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: Yes I know about Perihelion and their OS Helios. I have it on my webpage (it has been released for free for the transputer). I know they were involved with the Atari Transputer Workstation as it runs Helios, but I didnt know Commodore had one too. Ram -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 2:44 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Wanted transputer pictures for the following systems At 09:45 AM 8/6/99 -0400, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >> > Commodore's Transputer Workstation (does it exist?) >> >> Don't recall ever hearing about his one. > >Neither have I. I was searching through the classiccmp archives and >found this: > >http://mail-index.nice.ru/classiccmp/data/9708/254 > >Totally shocked me. I want some pictures and maybe even the arcticle >scanned for reference. Yes, this is what I was thinking of. Tim King started his own transputer company. "Perry Helion" should be "Perihelion". That was its name. Helios was the OS. - John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 6 17:52:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Novel/Eagle NE1000 & NE2000 ethernet cards (& others) In-Reply-To: <19990806.151841.234.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > OKay, for 100 bonus (bogus?) points: > > What were the three Com's of 3Com? Computers, Communications, and Combines Do I win? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 6 18:05:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Xenix Serial Port Question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990806172849.009aa100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > [[Editor's note: During my muckety-mucking, I noticed that the /etc/passwd > file was *world writable*... is this normal for a stock Xenix install??? > That seems to be extremely poor security... especially for a dial-in > capable box. :-( ]] This was how I was able to "hack" (oops, a mis-use of the word :) into so many Xenix boxes back in the day. > Question 2) I found that some serial ports could be designated log-in > enabled, and some were log-in disabled. If these settings are different, > would that explain the differing signal status lights on my RS-232 tester? Possibly. Since getty is probably not being run on those ports that are not designated for log-in, it may not be turning on the DTR signal. > Question 3) The serial ports on the multi-serial card are already wired for > null-modem capability. What do I need to do to get my Tandy200 to talk to > the ports. (Yes, the ports are set up for 9600 bps, 8-N-1 and X-on/X-off, > as was my Tandy. Yet, no commo happened.) You should be able to just plug the Tandy into the port without the need for any null-modem adaptor. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Aug 6 18:18:00 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: HP Timeshare BASIC OS - cool find! In-Reply-To: <005501bee018$75be5f40$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Aug 6, 99 09:32:06 am Message-ID: <199908062318.QAA03584@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 432 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990806/1567e86c/attachment.ksh From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 6 19:48:39 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Borland releases old Turbo products at no charge... References: <3.0.5.32.19990806135819.011026e0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <37AB8267.49B3@bellsouth.net> John, Great link! Now how does one convert five (5) .GIFF files into say a .PDF and/or .DOC file? Jim Webster John Foust wrote: > > Dan Gillmor points to the aforementioned Borland site, the antique C site, > and histories of VisiCalc, ThinkTank, Ready and MORE. > > > > - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 18:02:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <199908061847.UAA01726@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 6, 99 08:47:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 825 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990807/89811bfd/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Aug 6 18:42:55 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: Searchable archive of classiccmp is available. In-Reply-To: References: <19990806155245.20392@firepower> Message-ID: <4.1.19990806194217.00a5fe50@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:55 AM 8/6/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >Continual thanks go to Kevan for maintaining the original archives as >well! Absolutely!! -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 6 18:56:46 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <199908061515.IAA24643@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Let's see. "ANY security system, door lock, etc. should be easy to circumvent to avoid any inconvenience when the user can't comply with the "normal" entry requirements." From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 6 20:31:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: References: <199908061515.IAA24643@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) scribed: >Let's see. > >"ANY security system, door lock, etc. should be easy to circumvent to >avoid any inconvenience when the user can't comply with the "normal" entry >requirements." Um, no. It shouldn't be easy, and the normal user shouldn't be able to do it. However, it should be possible with the proper knowledge, tools, and authorization. The trick is to verify authorization, which is why physical access should be a requirement, and proper attention given to physical security. Your summary sounds like the Microsoft approach to security :^) On the other hand I've come to believe that a person should have a license simular to a drivers license before they're allowed to touch a computer! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Aug 6 21:03:08 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs Message-ID: <199908070203.UAA08008@uswest.net> Hi Don and other ListErs, I have been working on a similiar problem... I have the original DEC distributions for a few things (including Ultrix 3.1, looking for UWS 3.0), and I want to make archival copies of them... I discovered the TK-50Z (both FA and GA) will work with FreeBSD and an old Adaptec SCSI controller. This allows me to read (and copy) the TK50 onto my PCs hard disk, but I haven't quite got the format right to write a new tape (still playing with file marks)... NOTE: I tried a 2940 and a 1535 and neither of them worked. I was successful with a AHA-1542B scsi adapter. I also have a SCSI adapter for my uVAX II, and have copied tapes from TK50 to 4mm DAT, but it seems quite a waste to put 95MB on a 4GB tape. Finally, if none of these options appeal to you (and you don't have other success), I have a uVAX II with a TK70, TK50, SCSI adapter for the 4mm DAT, and a 9-track tape drive, and can copy them for you (contact me off list for this). Laters, clint PS My 11/750 is up and running!!! The dead power supply turned out to be two pins shorted on the backplane... Sometimes my debugging skills leave something to be desired... PPS What is a Fujitsu Eagle worth used? I am going to upgrade the 11/750 to a SCSI controller and 3.5" drive as soon as I get two nickles to rub together :) > >I have been tinkering around with my VaxStation 2000 and a couple of >TK-50Zs that I have. One is an FA and the other a GA so I am able to set >them at differing SCSI node values. > >My thought was that I could use both on the VaxStation and use them to >duplicate some tapes that are save_set(s). Apparently it cannot be done >on the VS. Either unit is recognized when connected alone, but when both >are connected the FA is always recognized as MUA0 and the GA is ignored. >Does anyone have an explanation for this, or am I just doing it wrong? > >Assuming failure on the two tape approach, how might I make the duplicate >tape(s) without wiping out the contents of my hard disk? It is at the >moment fairly lightly loaded and may hold the save_set. The HD is an RD54 >by the way and I am running VMS 5.5. > >Thanks! > - don From emu at ecubics.com Fri Aug 6 21:30:49 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs References: <199908070203.UAA08008@uswest.net> Message-ID: <000f01bee07d$370bb300$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 8:03 PM Subject: Re: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs > I discovered the TK-50Z (both FA and GA) will work with FreeBSD and > an old Adaptec SCSI controller. This allows me to read (and copy) the > TK50 onto my PCs hard disk, but I haven't quite got the format right > to write a new tape (still playing with file marks)... If you really have problems with that, I remember seeing a program, which finds out, which blocksize, filemarks, ... a tape is been written. > NOTE: I tried a 2940 and a 1535 and neither of them worked. I was > successful with a AHA-1542B scsi adapter. the adaptec 2940 works on linux & dos. > Laters, > clint cheers, emanuel From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Aug 6 23:35:07 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: INMOS part numbers for special purpose trams References: <37A97FDD.F53A09F3@olf.com> <3.0.5.32.19990806133658.0122e4a0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <37ABB77B.4F303A25@digiweb.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 08:41 PM 8/5/99 +0200, you wrote: > > > >>From The Transputer Handbook by Ian Graham and Tim King, published 1990, > >page 132 > > I may be under the influence of time-singed neurons, but I think > this is the same Tim King once associated with Metacomco and > their version of the TRIPOS operating system, which was the > source of the weird BCPL-isms in the early Amiga operating systems. > I had a recollection he got into transputers after that... Don't know about Metacomco, who also did some Atari ST development software, but Tim is cited as Managing Dircetor of Perihelion Software in the UK. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Aug 6 23:35:17 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: PC Software History Sites Message-ID: <199908070435.AAA18828@phantom.golden.net> In case you didn't read this column in the SJ Mercury... the columnist lists many sites dedicated to the history of early software developers and their products - Visicalc for instance. http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/columns/gillmor/docs/dg080399.htm Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 6 23:47:05 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >"ANY security system, door lock, etc. should be easy to circumvent to > >avoid any inconvenience when the user can't comply with the "normal" entry > >requirements." > Your summary sounds like the Microsoft approach to security :^) Exactly who I was ridiculing. (why there were quotes) Well, them and a few others as well. "It won't let me login" "Just hit escape and it will let you in without a password". I DON'T have a key under my doormat. From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 7 00:08:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > My thought was that I could use both on the VaxStation and use them to > > duplicate some tapes that are save_set(s). Apparently it cannot be done > > on the VS. Either unit is recognized when connected alone, but when both > > are connected the FA is always recognized as MUA0 and the GA is ignored. > > Does anyone have an explanation for this, or am I just doing it wrong? > > The drivers for VS2000 are designed assuming a single device on the scsi > bus and only one tape best I know. Either that or the two being different > scsi firmware are interacting in some bad way. Yep! Seems to be the case, and premised on some further testing it has to have an ID of 1. Hmmm! I didn't try 0, but it shows all ID positions as occupied in the T 50 display. - don From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 7 00:55:41 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:39 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs In-Reply-To: <199908070203.UAA08008@uswest.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Clint Wolff wrote: > > Hi Don and other ListErs, > > I have been working on a similiar problem... I have the original DEC > distributions for a few things (including Ultrix 3.1, looking for > UWS 3.0), and I want to make archival copies of them... > > I discovered the TK-50Z (both FA and GA) will work with FreeBSD and > an old Adaptec SCSI controller. This allows me to read (and copy) the > TK50 onto my PCs hard disk, but I haven't quite got the format right > to write a new tape (still playing with file marks)... > > NOTE: I tried a 2940 and a 1535 and neither of them worked. I was > successful with a AHA-1542B scsi adapter. Interesting! Keep us all posted, please. - don > I also have a SCSI adapter for my uVAX II, and have copied tapes > from TK50 to 4mm DAT, but it seems quite a waste to put 95MB on a > 4GB tape. > > Finally, if none of these options appeal to you (and you don't > have other success), I have a uVAX II with a TK70, TK50, SCSI > adapter for the 4mm DAT, and a 9-track tape drive, and can copy > them for you (contact me off list for this). > > Laters, > clint > > PS My 11/750 is up and running!!! The dead power supply turned out > to be two pins shorted on the backplane... Sometimes my debugging > skills leave something to be desired... > > PPS What is a Fujitsu Eagle worth used? I am going to upgrade the > 11/750 to a SCSI controller and 3.5" drive as soon as I get two > nickles to rub together :) > ________O/_______ O\ - don From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 7 01:00:51 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990806230051.00960890@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 22:08 06-08-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Yep! Seems to be the case, and premised on some further testing it has to >have an ID of 1. Hmmm! I didn't try 0, but it shows all ID positions as >occupied in the T 50 display. Whoa! All ID positions showing as occupied when you don't have actual devices to match usually means a duplicate SCSI ID somewhere on the bus. Check carefully! I'll bet a blueberry bagel that you've got two devices set for the same ID. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Aug 7 04:20:43 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... Message-ID: <01bee0b6$1fcf46a0$fb8ea6d1@the-general> Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with 2 banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Olminkhof To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 06, 1999 2:11 AM Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... > > >Jason Wrote: >>I need a 2MB SIMM for an IBM PS/2 P70-386. I know they go in in sets of >>two's, but for some reason, I have a spare SIMM that I found. Does anyone > > >I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. >They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence >detect circuitry. > >Hans > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 7 01:19:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >> >"ANY security system, door lock, etc. should be easy to circumvent to >> >avoid any inconvenience when the user can't comply with the "normal" entry >> >requirements." > >> Your summary sounds like the Microsoft approach to security :^) > >Exactly who I was ridiculing. (why there were quotes) Well, them and a >few others as well. >"It won't let me login" >"Just hit escape and it will let you in without a password". > >I DON'T have a key under my doormat. Opps, I thought that was supposed to be a recap of some of the comments put forth today :^) I think I mentioned I get a little touchy on the subject of Information Security, if so I was understating the fact! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Aug 7 01:31:39 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: New arrival... (s)? (pt. II) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990806233139.0338ed44@agora.rdrop.com> ...a few days ago I scribbled... > ...And hopefully (if Murphy does not interfere) by the end of the weekend yet another > item will be struck from the list! Stay Tuned!! Well, it happened! Ducking 'Murphy' vibes all the way, (deal was a bit shaky right up until the end) but another one falls from the list! An early Altair 680 with full front panel joined the collection tonight. No docs or software (see a request coming on?), but it is pretty good shape and appears to be reasonably coherent. I'll be able to tell a bit more once I find some basic specs on it and can figure out how the serial port is configured. It has been a good week! (quality over quantity) Pictures on the web site! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From 7mtns at netscape.net Sat Aug 7 03:02:21 1999 From: 7mtns at netscape.net (sevenmountains) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: FS: Box of manuals, etc. Message-ID: <19990807080221.5199.qmail@wwcst212.netaddress.usa.net> Have a box of assorted manuals for sale: (binder)Sequoia PICK/UNIX Admininstrator manual, covers TOPIX, PICK, system maintenance; Systematics General Corp., Natl. Sci. Labs Div., Reference Manual: Model T-5101 Interactive Display Terminal (has some schematics also); Centronics Model 306 Printer Tech Manual; Centronics Series 300 Printer Operator Manual; Centronics RS-232 Tech Manual; and finally, three binders of Honeywell mainframe info relating to GCOS 8 (list of system commands for console operator, printer manuals, etc. Selling whole shebang as one lot. Price: Seven dollars, plus shipping from Laurel, Maryland. USA only please. Dan S. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Aug 7 03:48:30 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... Message-ID: <002701bee0b1$9fdc4a00$f23dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with 2 >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. > Nope. You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have an error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of simms. It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs. >///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Olminkhof >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Friday, August 06, 1999 2:11 AM >Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... > > >> >> >>Jason Wrote: >>>I need a 2MB SIMM for an IBM PS/2 P70-386. I know they go in in sets of >>>two's, but for some reason, I have a spare SIMM that I found. Does anyone >> >> >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence >>detect circuitry. >> >>Hans >> >> > From cyborg at jaxn.com Fri Aug 6 20:35:34 1999 From: cyborg at jaxn.com (cyborg@jaxn.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Web Links Message-ID: <199908071242.FAA28471@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Greetings! This Message is not SPAM. If this message was sent to you in ERROR, you have my sincere apologies, PLEASE IGNORE IT. My name is Steve Holtzclaw. I operate a discount computer parts business in Jackson Tennessee. We sell all kinds of discount computer parts, accessories, supplies, and used computers. We have an inventory of over 10,000 different computer related items. We will soon be opening a Web Site that features our huge product line. Our prices are very competitive. We are looking for: (1) Web sites such as your that will link to us: We will pay you a commission of 40% of the net profit (usually $10-$50) of each sale that comes from the link on your site. If you are interested, please fill in the form on this page and we send you all of the information and instructions needed to get started. We can also help you promote your site. (see below) (2) Retailers: If you are a computer parts retailer, please keep us in mind. We can setup an account and sell to you wholesale. This is a very big market; there is a lot of room for all of us. I would very much like to do business with you. (3) Webmasters: We give extra special pricing to bona-fide Web Site operators in exchange for linking to our site. If you are in need of any hardware, please let us know. We can also help you promote your site. (see below) Please email me if I can be of any assistance to you. Thank you for your time and we hope to hear from you soon. Steve Holtzclaw Computronics Inc. 18 Brentshire Square Suite D Jackson, TN USA 1 (901) 661-0113 phone 1 (901) 660-4377 fax Please correspond by email ONLY to: cyborg@jaxn.com Fill out the following reply if you are interested in linking to us: ----------------------- cut here ------------------------- Web Site URL: Make checks payable to the following: Name: Address: City, State, Country, ZIP Day phone number: Email address: ---------------------------------------------------------- We can also help you promote your site. Fill in the following if you want us to submit your site to over 3000 search engines. ---------------------------------------------------------- Web Site URL: Site Theme: Keywords: Email address: ---------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 7 09:04:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <199908071404.AA29510@world.std.com> Message-ID: I have seen this happen on VAXstation 3100's where a device was jumpered to the SCSI controller's address. You might check for that as well. Paul On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 22:08 06-08-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > Whoa! All ID positions showing as occupied when you don't have actual > devices to match usually means a duplicate SCSI ID somewhere on the bus. > > Check carefully! I'll bet a blueberry bagel that you've got two devices > set for the same ID. > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Aug 7 09:30:52 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! References: Message-ID: <008f01bee0e2$e5de89b0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 10:47 PM Subject: Re: DUMB VMS! > > >"ANY security system, door lock, etc. should be easy to circumvent to > > >avoid any inconvenience when the user can't comply with the "normal" entry > > >requirements." > > > Your summary sounds like the Microsoft approach to security :^) Because we're a "little" OT already: Check this out: http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2309474,00.html cheers & have fun ;-) emanuel From jlwest at tseinc.com Sat Aug 7 09:31:02 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals Message-ID: <005b01bee0e1$7b076c20$0101a8c0@jay> No Sellam, no one took the time to reverse engineer TSB.... This manual is called 2000E IMS (Internals Maintenance Specification). It was written by HP, and I'm pretty certain it was used to train new programmers who were to work on the TSB code itself. It's just way too detailed (and most of it printed too nicely) to be someone just doing some reverse engineering. I'll probably get to scanning a few parts of it in next week. Cheers! Jay West From a2k at one.net Sat Aug 7 09:48:22 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Web Links In-Reply-To: <199908071242.FAA28471@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 cyborg@jaxn.com wrote: > Greetings! > > This Message is not SPAM. If this message was sent to Just like this is not a DoS attack on their mail server . . . Kevin From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 7 10:24:53 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Web Links In-Reply-To: References: <199908071242.FAA28471@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990807082453.00977100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:48 07-08-1999 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 cyborg@jaxn.com wrote: > >> Greetings! >> >> This Message is not SPAM. If this message was sent to > >Just like this is not a DoS attack on their mail server . . . Please don't. Fighting abuse with abuse is the worst possible way to take care of this. All it does is fuel the popular spammer argument that anti-spammers are nothing more than 'net vigilantes.' I will, as I have done for all the other spams our list has been hit with, fight this by notifying their ISP. If it is found that the usage policies of said ISP were violated, it is likely that he will lose his web site and E-mail block. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 7 11:13:14 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: List spam again Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990807091314.0095ea10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Regarding that spam from the fellow selling computer parts... First, let me say that I've been actively fighting spam since I first got a dial-up 'net account in 1994. I've seen a lot of spams, and I've gotten to where I can usually tell when someone may have made an honest error in judgment, as far as advertising their new business, vs. actually doing intentional spam. The spam from Mr. Holtzclaw had the feel of an honest error to it. Here are the actions I've taken. 1). I have traced back the spam to its source, and notified the ISP involved (jaxn.com was indeed the source). Their AUP specifically prohibits spamming, so I would not be surprised if Mr. Holtzclaw starts looking for a new provider very soon. 2). I have sent a note to Mr. Holtzclaw, something I almost never do, explaining -- POLITELY -- about spam, about what he did, and where to find web resources that explain what spam is and why it is a Bad Thing. I'll keep the group updated with any responses I receive. Oh, and I also sent a message to our (perhaps justifiably) overzealous member who wanted to fire off a DoS attack on the responsible mail server. I have asked him not to do so, as fighting abuse with more abuse never gets anything done. Onward we go...! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 7 11:42:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: <008f01bee0e2$e5de89b0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > . . . > http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2309474,00.html FTOUWATLTOABS,WII? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Aug 7 11:56:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals In-Reply-To: <005b01bee0e1$7b076c20$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: > This manual is called 2000E IMS (Internals Maintenance Specification). It > was written by HP, and I'm pretty certain it was used to train new > programmers who were to work on the TSB code itself. It's just way too > detailed (and most of it printed too nicely) to be someone just doing some > reverse engineering. You said it was "handwritten", so I concluded it was someone's scribblings. Why would HP release a document in someone's handwriting? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 7 12:24:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Z-80 hack Message-ID: <001201bee0f9$fdff5440$0400c0a8@winbook> please see comments embedded below regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 07, 1999 7:54 AM Subject: Re: Z-80 hack ><12MHz capable ones I have, team it up with a 64Kx8 SRAM, and a set of the > >The number of mods to get a LB to run at 12mhz would be better invested in >building a new board from scratch. > Since this is something that's only got to work once, I thought I'd put the SRAM on a small scrap of perf, along with a PAL to fiddle with the timing. The reason for not fiddling with the nWAIT line is that it doesn't time right with the instruction fetches, such that the peripherals will see the RETI opcode. If this gets too involved, I'll simply have to suffer through doing it from the parallel port on the PC, but I already have some code written many years ago (in BASIC) which does the job nicely, and I'll probably never use it again. I'm working on restoring a dozen or so 8" floppy drives which malfinction in one sense or another, to the extent that I can't verify/adjust their alignment until these repairs are effected. The code was written for an S-100 box I used back in the '80's which ran a 12MHz (hand-picked) CPU together with some fast SRAMS. I don't want to fire up the S-100 stuff right now, and the AMPRO provides sufficient packaging to allow me to install a mezzanine board on the processor socket. My HDC adapter sits there anyway, and the code is on that drive. It steps through the process of troubleshooting the logic on Shugart 800/801 boards, Siemens 100-8's, and a few others I don't have to deal with today. The timing probably isn't even that critical, but I prefer to handle the job this way since I've given away the hardware I previously used. The thing I have to build is just a port in and a port out, to monitor and control the signals to/from the drive without having to read and write. This also allows monitoring of the signals at various test points in the circuit without having to use the 'scope, which only does half the job. > ><'A' type peripherals, provided I switch the clock to 4MHz each time I see a > >there is a wait line for this kind of stuff. I'd upgrade to faster >peripherals 6 or 8 mhz ones are still available. > I found that the wait line doesn't work for this sort of thing. It's got to do with the way the peripherals work. Switching the clock rate does work, though. > >The FDC, SIO, CTC, RAM(and timing chain) all have Tacc that are way to slow >for even 6mhz. > >I hacked one to 8mhz and then put it back, it was never as solid in >operation. > Their RAM timing was stupid. > > >Basic design. Many of the utilities are timing sensitive. Catch TCJ and >order some back issues for the 8mhz mod. The back issues are still >available. > What's a TCJ? > >Also get issue 79, the P112 board may really be what you want. > > >The ampro does use mode 2, otherwise there is little point to using z80 >peripherals. > I never saw much advantage in using Z-80 with mode-2 interrupts anyway. I guess it's just a matter of style. I like simple interrupts, and if it gets too complicated, use another system to handle the I/O that makes it complicated. It's much easier to use three computers than to figure out how to use one with three interrupts. I guess I'm lazy . . . > >allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 7 12:58:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Z-80 hack Message-ID: <199908071758.AA09438@world.std.com> I hacked one to 8mhz and then put it back, it was never as solid in <>operation. <> References: <008f01bee0e2$e5de89b0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: >On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> . . . >> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2309474,00.html > >FTOUWATLTOABS,WII? Huh? Say what? BTW, as a result of this, someone has set up a LinuxPPC contest, with pretty much the same rules, BUT the LinuxPPC box is the prize! So the cracker would actually get something for thier effort. You apparently don't get anything for cracking the Windows box. Yesterday after 3 days of no success they gave out the root password! Haven't heard any further results though. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Aug 7 14:28:30 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals In-Reply-To: <005b01bee0e1$7b076c20$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 7, 99 09:31:02 am Message-ID: <199908071928.MAA20832@saul10.u.washington.edu> > No Sellam, no one took the time to reverse engineer TSB.... > > This manual is called 2000E IMS (Internals Maintenance Specification). It > was written by HP, and I'm pretty certain it was used to train new > programmers who were to work on the TSB code itself. It's just way too > detailed (and most of it printed too nicely) to be someone just doing some > reverse engineering. > > I'll probably get to scanning a few parts of it in next week. But you said it was _hand written_? That sounds rather counter-productive. ...not that I'm complaining about the fact that you have it, of course. I'd be fascinated to see it. Someone else said correctly that this kind of docu- mentation was rare. It seems to me that's especially true about HP, which is a shame since their stuff's so well-designed. I could be wrong about that impression though. Are you coming to the VCF? Or if not, I wonder if there will be any 2100 hardware there? -- Derek From jlwest at tseinc.com Sat Aug 7 14:55:54 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals Message-ID: <001601bee10e$dd0c11a0$0101a8c0@jay> It is both hand written and printed. A large chunk of it is printed, but obviously not for public publication (ie. internal use only). Many of the printed sections are supplemented with hand written and diagrammed stuff. However, most (but not all) of the hand written stuff is incredibly neat (a ruler was used to draw the figures, etc.). Most of the hand written stuff looked like it was being prepped for overheads. So - than answer is both! Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Derek Peschel To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 07, 1999 2:29 PM Subject: Re: HP TSB internals >> No Sellam, no one took the time to reverse engineer TSB.... >> >> This manual is called 2000E IMS (Internals Maintenance Specification). It >> was written by HP, and I'm pretty certain it was used to train new >> programmers who were to work on the TSB code itself. It's just way too >> detailed (and most of it printed too nicely) to be someone just doing some >> reverse engineering. >> >> I'll probably get to scanning a few parts of it in next week. > >But you said it was _hand written_? That sounds rather counter-productive. > >...not that I'm complaining about the fact that you have it, of course. I'd >be fascinated to see it. Someone else said correctly that this kind of docu- >mentation was rare. It seems to me that's especially true about HP, which >is a shame since their stuff's so well-designed. I could be wrong about >that impression though. > >Are you coming to the VCF? Or if not, I wonder if there will be any 2100 >hardware there? > >-- Derek > From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 7 15:20:17 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990806230051.00960890@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 22:08 06-08-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > >Yep! Seems to be the case, and premised on some further testing it has to > >have an ID of 1. Hmmm! I didn't try 0, but it shows all ID positions as > >occupied in the T 50 display. > > Whoa! All ID positions showing as occupied when you don't have actual > devices to match usually means a duplicate SCSI ID somewhere on the bus. > > Check carefully! I'll bet a blueberry bagel that you've got two devices > set for the same ID. Of that I am sure, Bruce. It is the TK50 set at the same ID# as the controller! - don From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 7 15:37:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: List spam again In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990807091314.0095ea10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > Regarding that spam from the fellow selling computer parts... > > First, let me say that I've been actively fighting spam since I first got > a dial-up 'net account in 1994. I've seen a lot of spams, and I've gotten > to where I can usually tell when someone may have made an honest error in > judgment, as far as advertising their new business, vs. actually doing > intentional spam. > > The spam from Mr. Holtzclaw had the feel of an honest error to it. Here > are the actions I've taken. > > 1). I have traced back the spam to its source, and notified the ISP > involved (jaxn.com was indeed the source). Their AUP specifically prohibits > spamming, so I would not be surprised if Mr. Holtzclaw starts looking for a > new provider very soon. > > 2). I have sent a note to Mr. Holtzclaw, something I almost never do, > explaining -- POLITELY -- about spam, about what he did, and where to find > web resources that explain what spam is and why it is a Bad Thing. > > I'll keep the group updated with any responses I receive. Oh, and I also > sent a message to our (perhaps justifiably) overzealous member who wanted > to fire off a DoS attack on the responsible mail server. I have asked him > not to do so, as fighting abuse with more abuse never gets anything done. > > Onward we go...! > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > Thanks Bruce, and well done! - don From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Aug 7 16:04:02 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: List spam again References: Message-ID: <37AC9F42.82ED185B@halcyon.com> If you haven't come across it, take a look at http://www.spamcop.net It does an excellent job of tracing the real source of SPAM, and you can automatically send a message to the proper "authorities" from an anonymous email address. Dave Don Maslin wrote: > > On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > Regarding that spam from the fellow selling computer parts... > > > > First, let me say that I've been actively fighting spam since I first got > > a dial-up 'net account in 1994. I've seen a lot of spams, and I've gotten > > to where I can usually tell when someone may have made an honest error in > > judgment, as far as advertising their new business, vs. actually doing > > intentional spam. > > > > The spam from Mr. Holtzclaw had the feel of an honest error to it. Here > > are the actions I've taken. > > > > 1). I have traced back the spam to its source, and notified the ISP > > involved (jaxn.com was indeed the source). Their AUP specifically prohibits > > spamming, so I would not be surprised if Mr. Holtzclaw starts looking for a > > new provider very soon. > > > > 2). I have sent a note to Mr. Holtzclaw, something I almost never do, > > explaining -- POLITELY -- about spam, about what he did, and where to find > > web resources that explain what spam is and why it is a Bad Thing. > > > > I'll keep the group updated with any responses I receive. Oh, and I also > > sent a message to our (perhaps justifiably) overzealous member who wanted > > to fire off a DoS attack on the responsible mail server. I have asked him > > not to do so, as fighting abuse with more abuse never gets anything done. > > > > Onward we go...! > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > > > Thanks Bruce, and well done! > > - don From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Fri Aug 6 20:12:26 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <000201bee11c$98fe7760$6459883e@dangermouse> Hi Hans, >>PC/XT class machines generally have no clock hardware >>in them as standard.... > >This is only true if you look at the very basic unit.... But that's exactly what I was talking about, STANDARD PC/XT machines. IBM, to the best of my knowledge, never released any form of clock card for the PC or XT. >....but clock-cards have been popular back than. Either as single >function card (rather rar) or within a multi function card. I used to have at least one clock card and several multi-function cards with built in clocks for use in such machines. The point is though that even though they were popular, they were generally the exception rather than the rule.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 13:26:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <199908071404.AA29510@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 7, 99 10:04:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 980 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990807/78d36aa8/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 7 17:04:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: References: <199908071404.AA29510@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990807145613.00b7fb30@mcmanis.com> And just to put some "definition" around "Y2K Compatible", from these comments below and others they prove without question that the original machines from IBM called the PC/XT and the PC/AT are *NOT* Year 2000 Compliant. They do not behave properly with respect to their dates *AS A SYSTEM* when the internal notion of date goes from 1999 to 2000. This has *NOTHING* to do with the question of whether they are *USABLE* after the year 2000, which as others have pointed out is simply a matter of either software patches, manual intervention, or "agreeing" to run their notion of the date/time differently than the actual date and time. This distinction may seem petty but it is important. Many things may happen at the beginning of the year that will require _manual_ intervention because the _system_ was not compatible. By certifying something as "Year 2000 Compliant" a manufacturer certifies that the behavior of the system will be no different during the roll over from 1999 to 2000 than it was in any other year. Hopefully we can put this stuff to rest, but I doubt it. --Chuck Some one else wrote: >> I have five 486 boards that hae older RTC that roll over from 1999 to 1980! >> they do however set manually to 2000! Tony Duell wrote this stuff: >Most PC real time clock chips keep the year in 2 parts. A counter, 0-99 >(BCD) which is automatically incremented when the month goes from >december to january, and a byte in the CMOS RAM (normally set to 19 or >20) which holds the century. The latter is _not_ automatically updated. >Now, some PC BIOSes/OSes will take an invalid (too early) year as being >1980. So the clock rolls over from 1999 to 1900, and the _software_ >changes that to 1980 (as otherwise it's too early a date). That's why you >can manually set them to 2000. >The chip itself is working correctly (as designed). The software is >misusing it ;-). From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Aug 7 18:19:36 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Information Please -- HP 13037D Storage Control Unit Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990807181936.23072efc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I went scrounging again today and came home with a HP 13037D Storage Control Unit Option 100. It's dated 1984 but the only reference that I could find to it is in the 1977 HP catalog. It lists the 13037A and says that it's a micro-processor based controller that offers a high level interface that simplifies the design of the CPU I/O card. And that multiple drives and CPUs may be connected to the SCU. Big whoppee! What does that mean? Can anyone tell me more about it? I assume that it's for the old HP MAC (Multiple Access Controller) interface. It has an HP-IB port and several cables that have card edge connectors. I doubt that I need it so if anyone has a need for it contact me directly. Joe From a2k at one.net Sat Aug 7 17:29:18 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Web Links In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990807082453.00977100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: > Please don't. Fighting abuse with abuse is the worst possible way to take > care of this. All it does is fuel the popular spammer argument that > anti-spammers are nothing more than 'net vigilantes.' Sorry, it was a joke... that was the topic of today's User Friendly (http://www.userfriendly.org/static) Kevin From oconnellb at home.com Sat Aug 7 17:50:20 1999 From: oconnellb at home.com (Brian M. O'Connell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: ADM and Imsai Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990807185020.00714a60@mail.brstl1.ct.home.com> Hi I'm trying to interface an ADM-3A with an IMSAI 8080 using an IMSAI SIO card (revision 3). Has anyone had experience with this combination? I'm trying to ascertain baud rate, parity as well as the relevant settings on the SIO's two sets of DIP switches. Thanks! Brian From jlwest at tseinc.com Sat Aug 7 17:59:49 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Information Please -- HP 13037D Storage Control Unit Message-ID: <002001bee128$8e7f4740$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... > I went scrounging again today and came home with a HP 13037D Storage >Control Unit Option 100 Off the top of my head without checking the manuals for accuracy..... The 13037 was HP's bid to get away from having a different controller in the backplane for each different drive. Previous disc interfaces were particular to fixed head, moving head, drum, etc. In addition, the interfaces in the card cage always took more than one slot as I recall. There is a 13037A, B, and C that I know about, I have nothing that refers to the D model. With the 13037, one interface card goes in the card cage. Cables go from this to a rack mount box (about 5 inches tall, about 28 inches deep). Inside this rackmount box was a separate microprocessor board and additional disc interfaces. The drives in turn were connected to the rackmount box. The particular features of the 13037 stuff was that more than one system could be connected to the rackmount microprocessor, but mainly different types of discs could be connected. The 13037B could do 7905, 7906, and 7920 drives. The 13037C added the capability to do both MAC and HP-IB drives. I have it on good word that the A and B models were junk (comparatively), and that the C model was the "one to get". I might have a spare manual on the 13037, I'll have to check. I do have a 13037C under refurb at the moment. Regards, jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 17:47:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 489 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990807/1a87a3ce/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 17:57:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990807145613.00b7fb30@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 7, 99 03:04:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2416 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990807/bba0947f/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Aug 7 19:04:55 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Unibus specs Message-ID: <004601bee132$74b92e20$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> I posted recently copies of the DEC Unibus specs complete with timing and other goodies on Zane's site. Thanks Zane for the space.:) They are mostly GIF images and the ones that had fine printing on the charts there are 2 copies. Same file # just a suffix letter difference. The url is ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/DEC/Unibus_spec Dan From danburrows at mindspring.com Sat Aug 7 19:07:03 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM Laptop Keyboards Message-ID: <004701bee132$754ede70$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> The local Hospice organization is having their annual flea market. One of the workers pulled me aside and asked if I knew anyone that could use a box of 16 brand new replacement keyboards for IBM laptops. Neither of us know what model they are for. He gave them to me to sell as they would have been dumpstered. If anyone is interested please contact me off list for shipping etc info. I will be asking for 2 checks. One to Hospice and one to me for actual shipping costs. The one to Hospice is for what you feel they are worth. Keep in mind they are a non profit organization and the flea market is how they raise funds for the local home. The IBM P/N 07G1103 FRO P/N 07G1735 EC No. C81240 Then under the bar code is *1M630037331 They do not have the pointer nub in the middle of the keyboard so I know they are for an older model. Might even meet the 10 year rule.:) FWIW almost all of the PC related stuff that I get in the course of my business gets donated to Hospice for this annual flea market. Dan From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Aug 7 19:41:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990807145613.00b7fb30@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990807173450.00b9a8e0@mcmanis.com> At 11:57 PM 8/7/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >Now, you may choose to run an OS (as most users did) which has problems >with dates past 31/12/1999. But that's an OS problem, not a hardware or >firmware problem. Tony, I understand the point you are making. There is nothing to prevent you from putting a Year 2000 ready application (be it Operating system or dedicated control program) on the hardware (even AT hardware if it knows what to look out for). My only point is that if you are using the software that came with the computer (PC-DOS 1.0 - 3.2 for the XT and through 6.0 for the AT) then the complete package (AS A UNIT (sorry to shout)) isn't compliant. It is important to make that distinction because otherwise people will say "I've got an application running on my PC/XT and I heard that the XT had no problem with the year 2000 so I'm not worried about it." and yet the OS they are running on has a big problem with Y2K. Anyway, I'm burned out on this whole issue after having been the person at FreeGate who had to get us Y2K _certified_ and this kind of distinction was critical. Anyone who hasn't been through the process will get to realize the different in another four and a half months and the argument will be moot. --Chuck From ss at allegro.com Sat Aug 7 19:52:02 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals In-Reply-To: <001601bee10e$dd0c11a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <199908080052.RAA31205@bart.allegro.com> Hi, Re: >> This manual is called 2000E IMS (Internals Maintenance Specification). It > It is both hand written and printed. A large chunk of it is printed, but An IMS is/was a typical document produced within HP documenting the internals of a product. By the late 1970s, they were expected to be produced on a computer (word processor of some kind) ... but given the timeframe of the 2000, handwritten isn't too surprising. Stan (wrote a couple, read a lot of IMS's) Sieler From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Aug 7 19:56:46 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: ...and the hits just keep on coming! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990807175646.0339a2e4@agora.rdrop.com> Man, it is turning out to be a real FINE week, if I just don't bankrupt myself in the process! Today I found up an AVA Model 409 Floppy Disk Drive Tester unit (computerized, with auto-test options for 8 inch and 5.25 inch drives, and integral printer). Most cool! These were multi-K$ back when we had one in one of the service centers I worked in. It comes up ok, passes its self-tests and reports its firmware version (2.1) on the printer, but as is common there were no docs with it. I recall using one of these way back when, so I've got most of it down pretty well for now but... (see this coming?) Anyone got a spare (or copyable) manual for this critter? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Aug 7 19:33:30 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail's message of "Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:56:14 -0700 (PDT)" References: Message-ID: <199908080033.RAA95837@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: > > This manual is called 2000E IMS (Internals Maintenance Specification). It > > was written by HP, and I'm pretty certain it was used to train new > > programmers who were to work on the TSB code itself. It's just way too > > You said it was "handwritten", so I concluded it was someone's > scribblings. Why would HP release a document in someone's handwriting? OK, Jay said he thought this was a training manual. That could mean "lab workbook" which didn't get the same amount of polishing as a user manual. Such things tended to get passed around after one guy got sent to the course, too. For example, somewhere around here I have a photocopy of an IMAGE internals lab workbook. The original was obviously produced with the assistance of a typewriter and a flowcharting template, and it looks like someone pencilled some notes on it (maybe while attending the source). Given that I got that copy around 1982 or so, I'd guess that it was originally produced in the late 1970s and before the wide deployment within HP of computerized tools for doing this sort of work (TDP, HPDRAW, graphics terminals, plotters, laser printers, most of which didn't really play together on HP3000s 'til about 1980-1983 or so). 2000E manuals and lab workbooks probably would be from the same or an earlier date. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 19:53:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990807173450.00b9a8e0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 7, 99 05:41:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990808/e435754f/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 7 21:57:25 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2309474,00.html > >FTOUWATLTOABS,WII? > Huh? Say what? For Those Of Us Who Are Too Lazy To Open a Browser Session, What Is It? FTOUWATLTOABS, it is a Ziff Davis article about a Microsoft challenge to crackers to try to break into a Win2K machine. Nobody succedded, because the machine crashed before anybody could try. From a2k at one.net Sat Aug 7 22:17:27 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: DUMB VMS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeesh. If you want to try and waste time on the PPC box, it's crack.linuxppc.org. Fun way to kill time while you're waiting for a kernel to compile (i.e. booting winbloze) ;) Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > >> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2309474,00.html > > >FTOUWATLTOABS,WII? > > Huh? Say what? > For Those Of Us Who Are Too Lazy To Open a Browser Session, What Is It? > > FTOUWATLTOABS, it is a Ziff Davis article about a Microsoft challenge to > crackers to try to break into a Win2K machine. Nobody succedded, because > the machine crashed before anybody could try. > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 7 22:39:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <199908080339.AA29623@world.std.com> <> I have five 486 boards that hae older RTC that roll over from 1999 to 198 <> they do however set manually to 2000! < Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > This distinction may seem petty but it is important. Many things may happen > at the beginning of the year that will require _manual_ intervention > because the _system_ was not compatible. By certifying something as "Year > 2000 Compliant" a manufacturer certifies that the behavior of the system > will be no different during the roll over from 1999 to 2000 than it was in > any other year. Surely there is more to it than that, and it would seem that we would have to add additional requirements. If the only requirement is that there be no difference between 1999 and 2000, then the PC, so long as it has no aftermarket hardware would qualify: It will incorrectly come up with 1/1/80, regardless of what year it is. Would a stopped clock qualify? > Hopefully we can put this stuff to rest, but I doubt it. Perhaps on 1/1/00? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Aug 7 23:50:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > A couple of months back I bought a second-hand Commodore 1570 disk drive. > It came in the original box, which is, alas, in very poor condition. The > polystyrene is cracked and has chunks missing. The cardboard sleeve is > torn/ragged. > > Is there any point in keeping it? I don't normally care about the packing > boxes for computers, but I know some people do. Also, I believe the 1570 > is not the most common CBM drive, so presumably the boxes for them aren't > that common either. I think its worth holding onto because its a part of the history of the product. It tells a bit about the company at that point in its life in terms of the packaging design and such. If the styrofoam is making a mess then perhaps it'd be best to throw that out, and then maybe fold the box up and stick it away somewhere to preserve it for posterity. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Aug 8 00:10:11 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: Latest Haul & A DAMNIT (Was: Re: VaxStation 2000 and TK-50Zs) Message-ID: A former co-worker now works for a institution of higher learning. We trade hardware from time to time, and he knows of my affinity for DEC hardware. He told me of two stashes of old DEC stuff at work, and that he had made arrangements for me to haul it off. For various reasons, we had decided to wait until this summer. The DAMNIT ---------- I get a call from him recently. It seems that unbeknownst to him, his boss (another former co-worker), and his boss's boss; some other idiot had decided to clean out the one stash. Since these three are key players in the institution's computer center, it seemed unlikely that this could have happened. But as I said this is an institution of higher learning, and having work for another such institution in this town, I can say with some certainty that it does not indicate 'higher smarts' or one damned bit of common sense. This stash included at least 10 VAXstation 2000's & more than one DECstation 3100. What intrigued me more was the boxes and boxes of unopened DEC spares. We will never know what went into that dumpster. My friend said one dumpster had been hauled off before he knew it. He 'dove' the second dumspter and found that most of the CRT's had been rendered useless, and was unable to recover anything useful. I relate this to you so that all the DEC fans can observe a moment of silence for what has happened with regards to this equipment. PAUSE The Latest Haul --------------- My friend, not wanting this to happen to the second stash, loaded it into the back of his truck at once. He then called me and we made arrangements to meet in a couple of hours. As luck would have it, there came up a storm before we could meet and the VR260 monitors in the back of his truck got a little wet. That does not bother me too much. I had given him an IBM RT with 19" color monitor months ago. It had been in my garage when the tree fell on it during a storm and the monitor got soaked. Six months later, he fired it up and it worked fine. This latest haul is 5 VAXstation 2000's, 5 VR260 monitors and all the cables, mice, etc. Of the 5 VAXstation 2000's, three were apparently running diskless, and the other two have been relieved of their disk drives. Previous Haul ------------- Some time back I hauled home a couple of other VAXstation 2000's & two TK50Z-FA's. One VS2000 is gone and the other has been disassembled to pull the RD54 for a fellow list member. I still have the TK50Z-FA's. To summarize, I have: 3 - VAXstation 2000's - are diskless 2 - VAXstation 2000's - relieved of disks 1 - VAXstation 2000's - basket case, (disassembled and in a basket) 5 - VR260 monochrome monitors 1 - MS400CA (unused) - 2 mb memory option for VS2000 With all the other DEC hardware, I doubt I will ever get to messin' with these. If you have any interest in any of this, let me know. Mike Thompson From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Aug 8 02:22:19 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: IBM Laptop Keyboards In-Reply-To: <004701bee132$754ede70$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: >The local Hospice organization is having their annual flea market. One of the >workers pulled me aside and asked if I knew anyone that could use a box of 16 >brand new replacement keyboards for IBM laptops. Neither of us know what >model >they are for. He gave them to me to sell as they would have been dumpstered. >If anyone is interested please contact me off list for shipping etc info. I >will be asking for 2 checks. One to Hospice and one to me for actual shipping >costs. The one to Hospice is for what you feel they are worth. Keep in mind >they are a non profit organization and the flea market is how they raise funds >for the local home. > >The IBM P/N 07G1103 >FRO P/N 07G1735 >EC No. C81240 >Then under the bar code is *1M630037331 > >They do not have the pointer nub in the middle of the keyboard so I know they >are for an older model. Might even meet the 10 year rule.:) > >FWIW almost all of the PC related stuff that I get in the course of my >business >gets donated to Hospice for this annual flea market. > >Dan I found this post via dejanews in 1997, looks like they didn't know what it went to then, but I bet its the source for what you now have. Further digging hints at these being for the L40 portable, but I found nothing certain. ................................ BRAND NEW IBM LAPTOP KEYBOARDS!! Model #: 07G1103>FRU P/N:07G1735 Ec no.: C81240 (new & individually wrapped) 1200 available -Take all- US$24.75 ea. List Price US$177.00ea.To verify list$ call IBM @ 1-800-388-7080 Company: PlaNET Resource Canada Contact: Mike Email : PlaNETsource@hotmail.com Phone : FAX : 403 424-4833 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Aug 8 09:35:43 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:40 2005 Subject: DG Nova III for rescue Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990808093543.3ca741ca@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I thought I sent this to the full list but Zane told me that I only sent it to the auction notification list. So here it is again. A friend of mine found a DG Nova III in a local scrap yard. He says that it looks complete and in good shape and that it doesn't look like it's been rained on yet. He says that it's in two ~ 5' tall cabinets and has a reel to reel tape drive and four terminals. Anyone want to rescue this? I DO NOT have room/time/money to rescue and/or to ship it. If you want it, come and get it. It's located in Sanford, Florida. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Aug 8 09:06:02 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: DG Nova III for rescue In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990808093543.3ca741ca@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990808100252.00a658b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:35 AM 8/8/99 +0000, Joe said something like: >Hi, > > > I thought I sent this to the full list but Zane told me that I only sent >it to the auction notification list. So here it is again. > > A friend of mine found a DG Nova III in a local scrap yard. He says that >it looks complete and in good shape and that it doesn't look like it's been >rained on yet. He says that it's in two ~ 5' tall cabinets and has a reel >to reel tape drive and four terminals. Anyone want to rescue this? I DO >NOT have room/time/money to rescue and/or to ship it. If you want it, come >and get it. It's located in Sanford, Florida. Dang! Way too far away and I'm way too broke anyway. This is a somewhat scarce machine. Haven't heard of one available for some lengthy time now. Somebody rescue it please! Good luck, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Aug 8 09:56:28 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 FA Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990808095628.2307a236@mailhost.intellistar.net> Epson HX-20 for aucton. See "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141802117". No, it's not mine. Joe From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Aug 8 10:35:00 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bee1b3$93cf8940$92711fd1@5x86jk> I keep all boxes that I get until a better one comes along. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 5:48 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? > > > A couple of months back I bought a second-hand Commodore 1570 disk drive. > It came in the original box, which is, alas, in very poor condition. The > polystyrene is cracked and has chunks missing. The cardboard sleeve is > torn/ragged. > > Is there any point in keeping it? I don't normally care about the packing > boxes for computers, but I know some people do. Also, I believe the 1570 > is not the most common CBM drive, so presumably the boxes for them aren't > that common either. > > -tony > > From ss at allegro.com Sun Aug 8 12:20:59 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: HP TSB internals In-Reply-To: <199908080033.RAA95837@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199908081720.KAA30779@bart.allegro.com> Frank writes: > source). Given that I got that copy around 1982 or so, I'd guess that > it was originally produced in the late 1970s and before the wide > deployment within HP of computerized tools for doing this sort of work > (TDP, HPDRAW, graphics terminals, plotters, laser printers, most of > which didn't really play together on HP3000s 'til about 1980-1983 > or so). 2000E manuals and lab workbooks probably would be from the > same or an earlier date. At least as far back as 1979 (when I joined HP), people were doing the majority of their IMS (Internal Maintenance Specifications) as flat ASCII files, using EDITOR (the simple-minded editor that came with the HP 3000). Graphics, other than ASCII graphics, were unheard of. However, I do remember printing a lot of IMS's out on the laser printer, HP 2680, back around 1982 (perhaps earlier? we had an early EPOC (HP 2680 page printer). I simply avoided flowcharts :) When the 2680 became available, there was an explosion in the amount of printing in the lab! Stan From cdrmool at interlog.com Sun Aug 8 12:52:46 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: <000601bee1c6$d3b548c0$890714d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> I'm glad for this thread. It kept me from tossing the Commodore 16 box away. Too late though for the beautiful NeXT boxes that went to recycling. I didn't have room. I should have known better. That sound you hear is Larry Walker and Brian Mahoney loading their rifles. colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C@xoommail.com -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, August 08, 1999 11:40 AM Subject: RE: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? >I keep all boxes that I get until a better one comes along. John > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Duell >> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 5:48 PM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? >> >> >> A couple of months back I bought a second-hand Commodore 1570 disk drive. >> It came in the original box, which is, alas, in very poor condition. The >> polystyrene is cracked and has chunks missing. The cardboard sleeve is >> torn/ragged. >> >> Is there any point in keeping it? I don't normally care about the packing >> boxes for computers, but I know some people do. Also, I believe the 1570 >> is not the most common CBM drive, so presumably the boxes for them aren't >> that common either. >> >> -tony >> >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 8 13:07:12 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: DG Nova III for rescue References: <3.0.1.16.19990808093543.3ca741ca@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <99080814095301.27309@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: > I thought I sent this to the full list but Zane told me that I only sent >it to the auction notification list. So here it is again. > > A friend of mine found a DG Nova III in a local scrap yard. He says that >it looks complete and in good shape and that it doesn't look like it's been >rained on yet. He says that it's in two ~ 5' tall cabinets and has a reel >to reel tape drive and four terminals. Anyone want to rescue this? I DO >NOT have room/time/money to rescue and/or to ship it. If you want it, come >and get it. It's located in Sanford, Florida. Whoa...that sounds too good to let go. I may have just enough storage space available in Treasure Island, FL (near Tampa) but I'm in Washington DC. If there's someone in florida who can move it to Treasure Island, I'd be happy to give it some space there, at least for a while. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:24:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: <199908080339.AA29623@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 7, 99 11:39:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990808/ac288ab3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:34:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 7, 99 08:44:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990808/d8ab1f15/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 13:06:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <000401bee1b3$93cf8940$92711fd1@5x86jk> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Aug 8, 99 10:35:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990808/bf4ffdca/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 8 14:04:53 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: DEC board anyone? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990808120453.00974520@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Cleanup efforts have unearthed a Unibus board: Specifically, M8200-YB. If no one speaks up for it, I'll just put it out at my garage sale on the 28th/29th. Otherwise, first person to offer $5.00 (covers packing and shipping) gets it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 8 14:35:42 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: FW: FS: rx-50 drive, digital mouse / delni In-Reply-To: <37adc523.20592952@news.gis.net> References: <37adc523.20592952@news.gis.net> Message-ID: <37aedbe1.89055715@smtp.jps.net> Seen on Usenet. Anyone want this stuff, get in contact with the seller directly. Thanks. -=-=- -=-=- On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:58:09 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>From: midigear@gis.net (midigear) >>Newsgroups: ne.forsale,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.vax >>Subject: FS: rx-50 drive, digital mouse / delni >>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:58:09 GMT >>Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com >>Lines: 17 >>Message-ID: <37adc523.20592952@news.gis.net> >>Reply-To: midigear@gis.net >>X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com >>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!206.170.175.2!ns2.foothill.net!oronet!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsout.pdxfiber.net!cyclone.bc.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!remarQ60!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net ne.forsale:276 comp.os.vms:738 >> >>LAST CALL >> >>- digital delni hub (with a dozen connectors) >>- digital mouse model VS10X-EA Rev 3a >>- miscellaneous related items >> (VMS, a couple dozens floppies)... >>- RX-50 disk drives (2 drives in one assembly) >>- long keyboard/monitor cable (3 BNC cables (RGB) and 1 keyboard on >>one end, multipin on ther other) >> >>for pickup in somerville (boston) / davis square >> >>please make an offer, I'll probably take it! >> >>I CANNOT ANSWER ANY TECHNICAL QUESTIONS ON THIS >>- ALL ITEMS AS IS -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From red at bears.org Sun Aug 8 14:55:05 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: TK50 flavours Message-ID: Is a TK50-D not a SCSI device? It sure bears only about a fifth of a superficial resemblance to one. If not what is it used with? ok r. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Aug 8 14:56:22 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: <7b837232.24df3ae6@aol.com> In a message dated 8/8/99 2:47:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > > > I keep all boxes that I get until a better one comes along. John > > One other thing to remember. I (like most people here I guess) are > _terminally_ short of space. > > If I had infinite space, I'd keep all the boxes, etc, in case they were > useful/historically important. As it is, I am not so sure.... > well, if the boxes are in decent shape, they do stack better. One thing to be careful of though, is to make sure that insect pests aren't hitching a ride in an old box you decide to bring in your house. -- d.b. young team os/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at- http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 8 15:01:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: IBM/XT Y2K Compliancy Message-ID: <199908082001.AA12945@world.std.com> <> The one on my s100 board is definatly broke... I wrote the bios! < Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990808140330.009842b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:55 08-08-1999 -0400, you wrote: >Is a TK50-D not a SCSI device? It sure bears only about a fifth of a >superficial resemblance to one. Never ran into the 'D' version. The two I've seen that are SCSI are the TK50Z-FA (for use with VAXStation 2000) and the more generic TK50Z-GA (less proprietary on the SCSI side than the FA). >If not what is it used with? Depends. If you're talking the bare drive with the 26-pin Berg header on the back, it's a proprietary serial interface which requires the M7546 (or similar) tape controller. Such were often installed in MicroVAX II and III, and could also be found on the MicroPDP-11 series. If you're talking external case with a pair of 50-pinners on the backside, that could be either an FA or a GA. Such were used with systems like the VAXStation 3100 series, or anything else that needed a TK50 on SCSI. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Aug 8 16:22:45 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: DEC board anyone? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990808120453.00974520@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Aug 8, 99 12:04:53 pm Message-ID: <199908082122.OAA05644@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Bruce: I'm in the market for Unibus cards, but I don't think I'd have a use for this one. But for $5 why not, if you get no further offers. Better make it $10 due to shipping across the boarder to Vancouver... Let me know if no one else wants it, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From red at bears.org Sun Aug 8 16:45:53 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: TK50 flavours In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990808140330.009842b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > If you're talking external case with a pair of 50-pinners on the > backside, that could be either an FA or a GA. Such were used with > systems like the VAXStation 3100 series, or anything else that needed > a TK50 on SCSI. It's a TK50 in an external case with a single 50 pin D-sub connector and no ID switch. ok r. From sms at antinode.org Sun Aug 8 16:48:04 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: TK50 flavours Message-ID: <99080816480461@antinode.org> From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" > Is a TK50-D not a SCSI device? It sure bears only about a fifth of a > superficial resemblance to one. > If not what is it used with? The -FA and -GA models have a SCSI controller board (TZK50) with the drive, in the box which is about 12.5 inch (32 cm) wide. Assuming that the "-D" is the one which is about two-thirds as wide, it is just the raw drive with its ribbon cable going to a (largely idle) 50-pin D connector (as I recall). It connects to a suitable controler, such as the Q-bus TQK50 or the UNIBUS TUK50. I believe that it was most commonly used with big-old UNIBUS machines like the VAX-11/7xx, which had no convenient place for an internally mounted TK50 drive, whereas most Q-bus systems did. Nowadays, the most common use for one is probably as a safe place to keep a spare drive, in case the drive in one's -FA or -GA fails. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Aug 8 17:08:05 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find In-Reply-To: <37aedbe1.89055715@smtp.jps.net> References: <37adc523.20592952@news.gis.net> <37adc523.20592952@news.gis.net> Message-ID: Found an AIM-65 at a hamfest today (at the Amana Colonies near Cedar Rapids, Iowa) for $1.00. It's got the cheesiest brown, plastic case I've ever seen, a cut little printer built in, an ascii keyboard, a funky led display and not much else. I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application connectors on this little guy? Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 8 18:42:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find Message-ID: <000401bee1f7$a6b1e280$0400c0a8@winbook> The plastic cases were an add-on, but the printer and "funky" LED display were standard. It's a standard sort of 6502 board, with a 1 MHz processor, a bit of ram and a bit of ROM, depending on what you put in. I've got two of them (borrowed) atthe moment, one with a video board and extra prom board and a prom programmer, and the other without the case, etc, but with all available ram and rom populated. I believe it's got the assembler and BASIC in ROM along with a monitor. AFAIK, there's a FORTH available for it as well, but I'm not a 4th sort of guy. Joe Rigdon has a couple of these with the BASIC and Assembler ROMs on board. Maybe you want to pull his chain and see what's really in those ROMs he's got. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Clifton - Wirehead To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, August 08, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find > >Found an AIM-65 at a hamfest today (at the Amana Colonies near >Cedar Rapids, Iowa) for $1.00. It's got the cheesiest brown, >plastic case I've ever seen, a cut little printer built in, >an ascii keyboard, a funky led display and not much else. > >I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 >volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. > >Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application >connectors on this little guy? > >Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and >tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual >inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? > >Thanks... > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 8 18:46:03 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find Message-ID: <000701bee1f8$2dacf040$0400c0a8@winbook> Forgot to mention, I have a bit of DOC, but haven't read it yet. Perhaps I can find where the serial port connections are located. Since the thing doesn't appear to have a UART, I'm curious what it uses. Perhaps it uses a 6522 serial I/O port. It could bit-bang, I guess. After I've looked the docs/schematics over, I'll know more, which I'll share, if needed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Clifton - Wirehead To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, August 08, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find > >Found an AIM-65 at a hamfest today (at the Amana Colonies near >Cedar Rapids, Iowa) for $1.00. It's got the cheesiest brown, >plastic case I've ever seen, a cut little printer built in, >an ascii keyboard, a funky led display and not much else. > >I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 >volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. > >Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application >connectors on this little guy? > >Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and >tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual >inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? > >Thanks... > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 8 18:53:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Anthony Clifton - Wirehead wrote: > Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application > connectors on this little guy? Rich Cini has the manul set scanned on his website: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Look under "Platforms:Rockwell". > Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and > tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual > inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? You probably connect the TTY to one of the edge connectors. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Sun Aug 8 19:32:32 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) Message-ID: <027e01bee204$adca1080$2d2e883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >....(read : most microcomputers...) get stuck behind stuff I'm >working on. Which means to get to the Nimbus I'll have to climb >over a couple of VAXen, a Zilog S8000, a Sun, etc... Heh, heh, I know the problem well.... ;-) >....I think you can learn as much from a Beeb or an Apple ][ as >from a PC. If not more. Personally I'd say more. A few years ago I decided to get a formal qualification in electronics (I've been a hobbyist since '77). As part of the course we had to learn the proper techniques for fault finding digital systems....we were taught these using microProfessors and similar 6502 based boards (I forget their name....hex keypad, couple of VIAs, LED readout etc). "Primitive" systems like these (and Apples and Beebs) I think are far better animals on which to learn the inner workings of computers, far too much is hidden away inside the VLSIs our PCs are made from these days. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Sun Aug 8 19:42:35 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: 3Com 3Stations Message-ID: <027f01bee204$ae91f460$2d2e883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >No, the 286 has 24 address lines.... Thanks for clearing that up - I'd mistakenly thought it had 22. >....This machine (p850ug1) started life as a PC/AT. Although it now >has a 486 processor.... How'd you do that? Sounds like one heck of a hack.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From Glenatacme at aol.com Sun Aug 8 20:15:44 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: Tony Duell inquired: > > A couple of months back I bought a second-hand Commodore 1570 disk drive. > > It came in the original box, which is, alas, in very poor condition. The > > polystyrene is cracked and has chunks missing. The cardboard sleeve is > > torn/ragged. > > > > Is there any point in keeping it? I don't normally care about the packing > > boxes for computers, but I know some people do. Also, I believe the 1570 > > is not the most common CBM drive, so presumably the boxes for them aren't > > that common either. Sellam Ismail replied: > I think its worth holding onto because its a part of the history of the > product. It tells a bit about the company at that point in its life in > terms of the packaging design and such. If the styrofoam is making a mess > then perhaps it'd be best to throw that out, and then maybe fold the box > up and stick it away somewhere to preserve it for posterity. In general, Tony, I agree with Sam. The packaging can provide insight into both the packaging technology of the times and the marketing strategy (some of the claims on those old boxes are outrageous, and the graphics can be interesting, too!). Additionally, collectors will certainly pay a premium for an item which includes some or all of the original peripheral "trash." The foam does tend to break down, especially if it is in contact with other plastic items such as cables, etc, but it is still worth keeping. My solution is to wrap the foam -- and each item it contains -- in _stable_ plastic bags, and then stash the whole mess in a larger cardboard box. This of course requires a certain abundancy of storage space . . . Glen Goodwin 0/0 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Aug 8 22:16:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990808221606.3c9f4c2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Is anyone familar with this unit? I know what it is, it's a screen printer. I have a catalog that describes an earlier model but not the 4634. Does anyone know if this one also requires the dry silver paper? Will it work with the Tektronix 4051 computer? Exactly how are these connected to the system? I found one of these in a junk yard. It's still new in box. I'm wondering if I should grab it to add to my Tek 4051. Joe From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 8 21:11:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990808221606.3c9f4c2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: > Is anyone familar with this unit? I know what it is, it's a screen > printer. I have a catalog that describes an earlier model but not the 4634. > Does anyone know if this one also requires the dry silver paper? Will it > work with the Tektronix 4051 computer? Exactly how are these connected to > the system? I found one of these in a junk yard. It's still new in box. I'm > wondering if I should grab it to add to my Tek 4051. I got one with a Tek 4006/1 display scope. I don't know if the model number exactly matches yours but I can check to see how mine is connected to the scope. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jritorto at nut.net Sun Aug 8 21:24:01 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: tek4113 available. Message-ID: Hello List, Would anyone like a Tektronics 4113 graphics terminal? It's in perfect working order, but slightly scuffed here and there. One 8" floppy drive that works, color monitor that works, and perhaps even the color printer that goes with it, though I haven't seen that thing recently. I'm looking for pdp11 stuff, a sun3 framebuffer, cash or a good sob story in exchange. It's near Pittsburgh, PA. and it's pretty big, so you'll probably not want to mess with shipping.. Act fast before I shamelessly pimp it on Ebay... jake From donm at cts.com Sun Aug 8 21:28:47 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990808221606.3c9f4c2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: > Hi, > > Is anyone familar with this unit? I know what it is, it's a screen > printer. I have a catalog that describes an earlier model but not the 4634. > Does anyone know if this one also requires the dry silver paper? Will it > work with the Tektronix 4051 computer? Exactly how are these connected to > the system? I found one of these in a junk yard. It's still new in box. I'm > wondering if I should grab it to add to my Tek 4051. Joe, from foggy recollection, I think that the answers are Yes and No, respectively. It might serve as a set of spare parts for a 4631, but I believe that it interfaces with a raster scan terminal. The interface would be quite different. - don From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Aug 8 23:09:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990808221606.3c9f4c2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990808230955.56bf3f76@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:11 PM 8/8/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Is anyone familar with this unit? I know what it is, it's a screen >> printer. I have a catalog that describes an earlier model but not the 4634. >> Does anyone know if this one also requires the dry silver paper? Will it >> work with the Tektronix 4051 computer? Exactly how are these connected to >> the system? I found one of these in a junk yard. It's still new in box. I'm >> wondering if I should grab it to add to my Tek 4051. > >I got one with a Tek 4006/1 display scope. I don't know if the model >number exactly matches yours but I can check to see how mine is connected >to the scope. OK let me know. Thanks, Joe From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Aug 8 21:48:49 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: <19990808.220232.215.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:15:44 EDT Glenatacme@aol.com writes: >Sellam Ismail replied: > >> I think its worth holding onto because its a part of the history of >>the product. It tells a bit about the company at that point in its >>life in terms of the packaging design and such. If the styrofoam is making >>a mess then perhaps it'd be best to throw that out, and then maybe fold >>the box up and stick it away somewhere to preserve it for posterity. > >In general, Tony, I agree with Sam. The packaging can provide insight >into both the packaging technology of the times and the marketing strategy >(some of the claims on those old boxes are outrageous, and the graphics can Oh yeah, like the time Commodore shot itself in the foot claiming on the outside of the box that the C64 could run CPM programs! Of course then the FTC stepped in. . . . Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 8 22:12:36 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: DEC board anyone? In-Reply-To: <199908082122.OAA05644@fraser.sfu.ca> References: <3.0.5.32.19990808120453.00974520@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990808201236.0097c9c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 14:22 08-08-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Bruce: > >I'm in the market for Unibus cards, but I don't think I'd have a use for >this one. But for $5 why not, if you get no further offers. Better make it >$10 due to shipping across the boarder to Vancouver... Well, you're the first one to speak up, so it's yours if you want it. Hey... are you coming down to Seattle any time soon? You're probably aware I'm doing a good-sized garage sale on the 28th/29th. You might find some other goodies you'd want. If not, you can drop an MO, check, whatever for USD $10 and I'll box the board up for you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 8 22:13:37 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: TK50 flavours In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990808140330.009842b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990808201337.00969aa0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 17:45 08-08-1999 -0400, you wrote: >It's a TK50 in an external case with a single 50 pin D-sub connector and >no ID switch. A single connector? A D-sub 50 no less? Geez... that's downright psychotic. Ok, I'm baffled. Anyone else? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cureau at centuryinter.net Sun Aug 8 22:22:45 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? References: <19990808.220232.215.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <37AE4985.33562567@centuryinter.net> > Oh yeah, like the time Commodore shot itself in the foot claiming on the > outside of the box that the C64 could run CPM programs! Of course then > the FTC stepped in. . . . The Commodore 64 _could_ run CP/M programs...provided one had the optional Z80 cartridge...though I never tried myself. :-) The 128 was the first Commodore machine to actually boot CP/M disks with a 1571 drive, if I remember correctly. Just my two cents, Chris From donm at cts.com Sun Aug 8 22:35:24 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: TK50 flavours In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990808201337.00969aa0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 17:45 08-08-1999 -0400, you wrote: > > >It's a TK50 in an external case with a single 50 pin D-sub connector and > >no ID switch. > > A single connector? A D-sub 50 no less? > > Geez... that's downright psychotic. Ok, I'm baffled. Anyone else? Sounds like an ideal case to put an RD54 in for an external drive for a VAXstation 2000! - don > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From sring at uslink.net Sun Aug 8 22:43:31 1999 From: sring at uslink.net (END USER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tandy Message-ID: <01bee219$59e82b40$ad57ddcc@enduser> Does anyone have a MS-DOS/GW-BASIC reference guide Ver. 3.0, and Deskmate magazines or manuals for Tandy computers? sring@uslink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990808/ff1c5000/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 8 22:46:53 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: TK50 flavours Message-ID: <199908090346.AA28701@world.std.com> <>It's a TK50 in an external case with a single 50 pin D-sub connector and <>no ID switch. < < A single connector? A D-sub 50 no less? < < Geez... that's downright psychotic. Ok, I'm baffled. Anyone else? Sounds like a externally mounted TK50 for use with the usual Qbus M7546. The companion was the externally mounted RD5x for use with the RQDXn and the matching distribution card. Both are for those that had BA23s and no place left for a disk or tape. Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Aug 8 22:44:21 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: <19990808.224446.215.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 22:22:45 -0500 Chris Cureau writes: >> Oh yeah, like the time Commodore shot itself in the foot claiming on >>the outside of the box that the C64 could run CPM programs! Of course >>then the FTC stepped in. . . . > > The Commodore 64 _could_ run CP/M programs...provided one had the >optional Z80 cartridge...though I never tried myself. :-) The 128 was >the first Commodore machine to actually boot CP/M disks with a 1571 drive, >if I remember correctly. > >Just my two cents, >Chris > You are absolutely correct! The Z-80 cart was originally shelved when Commodore decided it was taking too much time and engineering effort to develop. The FTC forced Commodore to produce the carts or be sued big time. They produced enough to satisfy the FTC requirements, and that was the end of that. CPM carts are quite scarce as a result. (And a bit buggy). Jeff > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Aug 8 22:54:05 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: DEC board anyone? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990808201236.0097c9c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Aug 8, 99 08:12:36 pm Message-ID: <199908090354.UAA18821@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Bruce: > Well, you're the first one to speak up, so it's yours if you want it. Thanks! > Hey... are you coming down to Seattle any time soon? You're probably aware > I'm doing a good-sized garage sale on the 28th/29th. You might find some > other goodies you'd want. Sounds like a great idea! Maybe I could bring some of my own junk down and re-introduce it to the market! I will ask my friend Dennis if he'd like to attend as well. You remember him, he was the guy that kept the cpu and tk50 for you! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Aug 9 00:00:09 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit Message-ID: <7deee6c.24dfba59@aol.com> My 1984 catalog indicates that it processes video signals, both analogue and digital. It appears, from the cables offered that the analog is a 75 ohm BNC and the digital is a 15 pin, prob. D sub Centronics type. Nothing indicates that it could be used with the 4051, also in this catalog. It's recording technique processes raster scan video with a fiber optic CRT. It does use both kinds of Tek dry silver paper, switch selectable. The High performance paper 7772 is capable of 125 lines per inch(LPI). The regular 7770 paper does 100 LPI. There is a RGB Mixer available for color to mono conversion. I may have a new one in a box if you get the 4634. The printer, new, comes with a roll of paper, 75 ohm terminator and manual. If it is new in the box I sure would recommend getting it. Few of these exist because they are valuable as scrap metal. In 1984 Tek wanted $7900 for this printer. A roll of paper cost $215, a case $750. If your Tek 4051 has a 15 pin video out in the back it might hook up to this printer. The connector on the printer is not a Tek GPIB port. Paxton From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 9 00:57:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <37AE4985.33562567@centuryinter.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Chris Cureau wrote: > > Oh yeah, like the time Commodore shot itself in the foot claiming on the > > outside of the box that the C64 could run CPM programs! Of course then > > the FTC stepped in. . . . > > The Commodore 64 _could_ run CP/M programs...provided one had the > optional Z80 cartridge...though I never tried myself. :-) The 128 was the > first Commodore machine to actually boot CP/M disks with a 1571 drive, if I > remember correctly. Well so _could_ the PDP-8 if someone built the necessary hardware or wrote a simulator for it :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 9 01:55:37 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: HP C1700A In-Reply-To: References: <37AE4985.33562567@centuryinter.net> Message-ID: I saw this in a newsgroup and I am passing it on, don't reply to me. ;) In article , "tessa" wrote: > I have an old 1991 HP Model C1700A file server.(Series 6300) > I'm not quite sure how to use it. I've heard it's obsolete, but is there any > way to use it for backup or anything around the house? One thing I've > noticed was that there are no NIC card openings or anything like that. > There's a 25-pin Parrallel port and 2 SCSI ports on the back. Would I need > a hub or could I just hook it up to my other two computers? Also, how do I > install software and everything else? I received it from NASA as gov't > surplus (DRMO), so I'm pretty sure it's not formatted. Any help would be > appreciated. > > marymasters@home.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Aug 9 08:05:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find In-Reply-To: References: <37aedbe1.89055715@smtp.jps.net> Message-ID: <199908091106.NAA07575@horus.mch.sni.de> > Found an AIM-65 at a hamfest today (at the Amana Colonies near > Cedar Rapids, Iowa) for $1.00. It's got the cheesiest brown, > plastic case I've ever seen, a cut little printer built in, > an ascii keyboard, a funky led display and not much else. Geee, what a neat beast - I'm searching a cased AIm (or an AIM case) for years. > I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 > volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. Wasn't it +5 and +/-12 ? It's a long time ago. > Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application > connectors on this little guy? Try Richards page - he did a good job and scanned a lot of the Manuals. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm > Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and > tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual > inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? There are two edge connectors - one supplys the system (extension) Bus, the other offers the 'user' port, including a 20mA TTY (like the KIM) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From gene at ehrich.com Mon Aug 9 07:00:17 1999 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Laptop Battery needed In-Reply-To: <004701bee132$754ede70$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990809075901.0098bef0@popmail.voicenet.com> I need a battery for my IBM Thinkpad 500. Does anybody have one available or know where one can be obtained? gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale Gene Ehrich PO Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Aug 9 09:27:31 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: References: <000401bee1b3$93cf8940$92711fd1@5x86jk> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Aug 8, 99 10:35:00 am Message-ID: <199908091228.OAA13967@horus.mch.sni.de> > [The tatty 1570 box that's sitting on the side of my bench] > > I keep all boxes that I get until a better one comes along. John > One other thing to remember. I (like most people here I guess) are > _terminally_ short of space. > If I had infinite space, I'd keep all the boxes, etc, in case they were > useful/historically important. As it is, I am not so sure.... Well, as someone already stated: boxes are way more easy to stack as lets say a naked C64 - also they are ment to protext the stuff. And since you cant have all stuff on your work bench, keeping the boxes is a good thing. Last but not least, boxes keep all small parts close to the unit - unless you see all just as interchangable parts. For my side, I prefer to have anything as close together as possible, because, after some 18 years of collecting I had to learn the hard way that my memory is less than perfect. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 9 08:18:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit In-Reply-To: <7deee6c.24dfba59@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990809081858.229f5226@mailhost.intellistar.net> Great description. Thanks Paxton. It's in the box but the top of the box is gone. I didn't see the manuals and other stuff, they may be under the foam padding but I expect they're gone too. I don't think it will work with the 4051. It has a built in monitor and no external cabling. $215 for a roll of paper!!! I couldn't afford to use it if I had it! Joe At 01:00 AM 8/9/99 EDT, you wrote: >My 1984 catalog indicates that it processes video signals, both analogue and >digital. It appears, from the cables offered that the analog is a 75 ohm BNC >and the digital is a 15 pin, prob. D sub Centronics type. Nothing indicates >that it could be used with the 4051, also in this catalog. > >It's recording technique processes raster scan video with a fiber optic CRT. >It does use both kinds of Tek dry silver paper, switch selectable. The High >performance paper 7772 is capable of 125 lines per inch(LPI). The regular >7770 paper does 100 LPI. > >There is a RGB Mixer available for color to mono conversion. I may have a new >one in a box if you get the 4634. The printer, new, comes with a roll of >paper, 75 ohm terminator and manual. If it is new in the box I sure would >recommend getting it. Few of these exist because they are valuable as scrap >metal. > >In 1984 Tek wanted $7900 for this printer. A roll of paper cost $215, a case >$750. > >If your Tek 4051 has a 15 pin video out in the back it might hook up to this >printer. The connector on the printer is not a Tek GPIB port. > >Paxton > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 9 08:40:50 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find In-Reply-To: <199908091106.NAA07575@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <37aedbe1.89055715@smtp.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990809084050.3d6f68ca@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:06 PM 8/9/99 +1, you wrote: >> Found an AIM-65 at a hamfest today (at the Amana Colonies near >> Cedar Rapids, Iowa) for $1.00. It's got the cheesiest brown, >> plastic case I've ever seen, a cut little printer built in, >> an ascii keyboard, a funky led display and not much else. > >Geee, what a neat beast - I'm searching a cased AIm (or an AIM >case) for years. > >> I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 >> volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. > >Wasn't it +5 and +/-12 ? It's a long time ago. Yes, 5 VDC and plus and minus 12 VDC. The -12 is only used for a comm port I think. The + 12 is used for the comm port and the printer. You CAN run it without the plus and minus 12 VDC but you'll lose the comm port and printer. You MUST have the 5 VDC. > >> Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application >> connectors on this little guy? > >Try Richards page - he did a good job and scanned a lot of the Manuals. >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm > >> Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and >> tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual >> inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? I don't know. Maybe it uses the keyboard connector or the expansion connector. You should be able to trace the KB-TTY switch out if nothing else. BTW some of my boards don't have the switch. The traces are there and there's a jumper soldered between two of them. > >There are two edge connectors - one supplys the system (extension) >Bus, the other offers the 'user' port, including a 20mA TTY (like >the KIM) Mine say "J1 Application" and "J3 Expansion". The keybaord connects to "J4". "J2" connects to the printer. I don't know where the comm port is. Have you looked at the stuff on Rich's web site yet. The manuals there should tell where it is and how to use it. BTW Richard, I haven't forgotten about the PROMs. I got my burner out to use it and found that I misplaced the software when I moved the burner to a new machine. I spent two days looking for it but haven't found it yet. > Joe Joe From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Aug 8 23:07:40 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: OT: Power Supply voltage for Dayna Etherprint-T plus? (resolution) In-Reply-To: <199908060702.AAA14208@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Anybody who started with this thread (and many thanks to Mike Ford), I got a second hand wall-wart power supply which puts out 9v dc 500 mA. The connector on the wall-wart cable has a socket for a central pin and an outer conductive barrel. The socket is +, the outer barrel is - according to the power supply label. I plugged it into the Etherprint-T Plus and it ran fine for at least 5 minutes (after which I unplugged it and went to bed). I'll let you know if it causes trouble later. YMMV, of course, but as far as I can tell Mike's forwarded post took care of me perfectly. Thanks, Mike! - Mark From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Aug 9 10:23:21 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:41 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990809084050.3d6f68ca@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199908091106.NAA07575@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908091324.PAA18097@horus.mch.sni.de> >>Geee, what a neat beast - I'm searching a cased AIm (or an AIM >>case) for years. >>> I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 >>> volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. >>Wasn't it +5 and +/-12 ? It's a long time ago. > Yes, 5 VDC and plus and minus 12 VDC. The -12 is only used for a comm > port I think. The + 12 is used for the comm port and the printer. You CAN > run it without the plus and minus 12 VDC but you'll lose the comm port and > printer. You MUST have the 5 VDC. Exact, the 12V are also needed for the TTY. >>> Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application >>> connectors on this little guy? >>Try Richards page - he did a good job and scanned a lot of the Manuals. >>http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm >>> Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and >>> tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual >>> inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? > > I don't know. Maybe it uses the keyboard connector or the expansion > connector. You should be able to trace the KB-TTY switch out if nothing > else. BTW some of my boards don't have the switch. The traces are there and > there's a jumper soldered between two of them. > >There are two edge connectors - one supplys the system (extension) > >Bus, the other offers the 'user' port, including a 20mA TTY (like > >the KIM) > Mine say "J1 Application" and "J3 Expansion". The keybaord connects to > "J4". "J2" connects to the printer. I don't know where the comm port is. > Have you looked at the stuff on Rich's web site yet. The manuals there > should tell where it is and how to use it. J1 Application == 'user' port, including the com line and the TTY line J3 Expansion == system bus Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 9 09:36:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find Message-ID: <000c01bee274$9edfbfa0$0400c0a8@winbook> The supply connections on the schematic are +24, +12 , +5, Gnd, and -12. The +24 is shown with a separate return from that of the other supplies. It seems to me that there is a considerable tolerance on the +24, but that's a common supply voltage. The thermal printer appears to be a TI EPN-9120, which might be just as happy with 18 volts, but might require a different set of passives at that voltage. I doubt you'll hurt anything with a voltage as low as 18Vdc, though the stepper may want more. When I used this mechanism, I usually AC-coupled the stepper so the circuitry didn't heat when the printer was idle. All indications are that the AIM uses a couple of parallel port bits to provide the ultra-slow (110 bps) interface to the TTY via some transistors and TTL gates. It's not the usual isolated 20mA interface. However, TXD is on J1/pin U and its return is on S, while the RXD from the TTY KEYBOARD and its return are on J1, pins T and R, respectively. If you want to improve anything at all, I'd start by combining the input clock with the R/nW signal to create the write strobe to the RAM memories. That will provide considerably better hold time, which 2114's definitely require. I normally 'NAND' the Phase-0 and Phase-2 clocks with inverted R/nW to accomplish this. There's a single-step switch and a reset switch, as well as the one that selects the TTY keyboard. I wouldn't be afraid to "play" with this one. It looks like it can handle reasonable abuse. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 7:24 AM Subject: Re: Spiffy Little Hamfest Find > >>>Geee, what a neat beast - I'm searching a cased AIm (or an AIM >>>case) for years. >>>> I haven't powered it up yet since it seems to want 12 and 24 >>>> volts and I don't have a 24 volt supply handy. >>>Wasn't it +5 and +/-12 ? It's a long time ago. > >> Yes, 5 VDC and plus and minus 12 VDC. The -12 is only used for a comm >> port I think. The + 12 is used for the comm port and the printer. You CAN >> run it without the plus and minus 12 VDC but you'll lose the comm port and >> printer. You MUST have the 5 VDC. > >Exact, the 12V are also needed for the TTY. > >>>> Does anyone have the pinouts for the expansion and application >>>> connectors on this little guy? >>>Try Richards page - he did a good job and scanned a lot of the Manuals. >>>http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm > >>>> Also, there's a switch that lets you switch between keyboard and >>>> tty but I see no place to connect a tty, not even a little dual >>>> inline connector or anything appropriate. Clues? >> >> I don't know. Maybe it uses the keyboard connector or the expansion >> connector. You should be able to trace the KB-TTY switch out if nothing >> else. BTW some of my boards don't have the switch. The traces are there and >> there's a jumper soldered between two of them. > >> >There are two edge connectors - one supplys the system (extension) >> >Bus, the other offers the 'user' port, including a 20mA TTY (like >> >the KIM) > >> Mine say "J1 Application" and "J3 Expansion". The keybaord connects to >> "J4". "J2" connects to the printer. I don't know where the comm port is. >> Have you looked at the stuff on Rich's web site yet. The manuals there >> should tell where it is and how to use it. > >J1 Application == 'user' port, including the com line and the TTY line >J3 Expansion == system bus > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 9 09:57:40 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <19990808.224446.215.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990809095740.0101b210@vpwisfirewall> At 10:44 PM 8/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >You are absolutely correct! The Z-80 cart was originally shelved when >Commodore decided it was taking too much time and engineering effort to >develop. The FTC forced Commodore to produce the carts or be sued >big time. They produced enough to satisfy the FTC requirements, and >that was the end of that. CPM carts are quite scarce as a result. >(And a bit buggy). I purchased one for my C-64 back in the early 80s, and still have it, but I don't remember using it very much. It was one of those things that I thought I really needed, but once it was in operation, it changed my mind. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 11:28:03 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > Oh yeah, like the time Commodore shot itself in the foot claiming on the > > > outside of the box that the C64 could run CPM programs! Of course then > > > the FTC stepped in. . . . > > > > The Commodore 64 _could_ run CP/M programs...provided one had the > > optional Z80 cartridge...though I never tried myself. :-) The 128 was the > > first Commodore machine to actually boot CP/M disks with a 1571 drive, if I > > remember correctly. > > Well so _could_ the PDP-8 if someone built the necessary hardware or wrote > a simulator for it :) And so can a Macintosh if you run a terminal emulator and connect the serial port to a Northstar Horizon. :-) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Aug 9 13:33:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Web Links In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990807082453.00977100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <199908091634.SAA29042@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Please don't. Fighting abuse with abuse is the worst possible way to take > > care of this. All it does is fuel the popular spammer argument that > > anti-spammers are nothing more than 'net vigilantes.' > Sorry, it was a joke... that was the topic of today's User Friendly :))) Well, not everybody does the user friendly check when he get up (in fact, it's always the second page on my PC :) > (http://www.userfriendly.org/static) Better use http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99aug/19990807.html Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Aug 9 13:26:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General Message-ID: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Another classic computer maker "bites" the dust. See: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,40250,00.html Which is a news.com story about how EMC (makers of storage products mostly) will buy Data General for 1.1 billion in stock. This was the last of the great mini-computer companies that had been left standing after DEC was bought by Compaq. I'm looking for other examples, but I believe this leaves IBM (System 360) and Sun (SPARC) as the last two companies who designed their own computer architecture still standing under their own name. (I don't count Xerox since they don't sell their D-series machines any more). Companies known to have gone away: DEC Data General Tandem Prime --Chuck From hansp at digiweb.com Mon Aug 9 13:42:29 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General References: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <37AF2115.23D21983@digiweb.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Another classic computer maker "bites" the dust. > > See: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,40250,00.html > > Which is a news.com story about how EMC (makers of storage products mostly) > will buy Data General for 1.1 billion in stock. This was the last of the > great mini-computer companies that had been left standing after DEC was > bought by Compaq. > > I'm looking for other examples, but I believe this leaves IBM (System 360) > and Sun (SPARC) as the last two companies who designed their own computer > architecture still standing under their own name. (I don't count Xerox > since they don't sell their D-series machines any more). > > Companies known to have gone away: > DEC > Data General > Tandem > Prime What about MIPS recently de merged from SGI. Then there is ARM, Motorola, Intel if you count microprocessors (you listed Sparc) as opposed to microcontrollers which would add a whole slew of other companies like National, Microchip, Atmel... _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Aug 9 14:25:35 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <37AF2115.23D21983@digiweb.com> References: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:42 PM 8/9/99 +0200, Hans wrote: >What about MIPS recently de merged from SGI. Then there is ARM, >Motorola, Intel if you count microprocessors (you listed Sparc) as >opposed to microcontrollers which would add a whole slew of other >companies like National, Microchip, Atmel... The distinction (arbitrary I know) is companies that designed their own architecture and built systems around it, not companies that adopted someone elses architecture. People like ARM, Motorola, and Intel are chip companies, not computer companies (although each has provided a computer based around their architecture at one time.) SPARC, while it may be considered a microprocessor with the advent of the "Tsunami" chip, prior to that it was a multiple chip architecture and from the F8 discussions we all know that a microprocessor is by definition a single chip :-) Anyone else catch the benchmarks of the latest Athlon chip from AMD? Dhrystone clocks it at 1974 MIPS (aka 1.974 GIPS!) Truely it boggles the mind. I had to explain to our sysadmin how the uVAX 3900 sitting in my office was about the speed of a 386/25 and he nearly choked. --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 9 14:32:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > The distinction (arbitrary I know) is companies that designed their own > architecture and built systems around it, not companies that adopted > someone elses architecture. People like ARM, Motorola, and Intel are chip > companies, not computer companies (although each has provided a computer > based around their architecture at one time.) SPARC, while it may be > considered a microprocessor with the advent of the "Tsunami" chip, prior to > that it was a multiple chip architecture and from the F8 discussions we all > know that a microprocessor is by definition a single chip :-) I understand the distinction. It's basically companies that were computer manufacturers mainly, not just piece-part manufacturers like Motorola, ARM, etc. Comapnies that sold entire computer systems, and installation, and support, etc. Like DEC, Data General, Burroughs, Sperry-Rand, etc. > Anyone else catch the benchmarks of the latest Athlon chip from AMD? > Dhrystone clocks it at 1974 MIPS (aka 1.974 GIPS!) Truely it boggles the > mind. I had to explain to our sysadmin how the uVAX 3900 sitting in my > office was about the speed of a 386/25 and he nearly choked. I read an article today in the business section about their new strategy to compete with Intel. I truly hope they succeed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From hansp at digiweb.com Mon Aug 9 14:44:19 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General References: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <37AF2F93.1B78D548@digiweb.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > At 08:42 PM 8/9/99 +0200, Hans wrote: > >What about MIPS recently de merged from SGI. Then there is ARM, > >Motorola, Intel if you count microprocessors (you listed Sparc) as > >opposed to microcontrollers which would add a whole slew of other > >companies like National, Microchip, Atmel... > > The distinction (arbitrary I know) is companies that designed their own > architecture and built systems around it, not companies that adopted > someone elses architecture. People like ARM, Motorola, and Intel are chip > companies, not computer companies (although each has provided a computer > based around their architecture at one time.) SPARC, while it may be > considered a microprocessor with the advent of the "Tsunami" chip, prior to > that it was a multiple chip architecture and from the F8 discussions we all > know that a microprocessor is by definition a single chip :-) OK, do I get any points for HP with the PA-RISC? _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 9 14:47:34 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General References: <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <99080915494607.00607@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Mon, 09 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >Anyone else catch the benchmarks of the latest Athlon chip from AMD? >Dhrystone clocks it at 1974 MIPS (aka 1.974 GIPS!) Truely it boggles the >mind. I had to explain to our sysadmin how the uVAX 3900 sitting in my >office was about the speed of a 386/25 and he nearly choked. Yeah but did you explain that you can pile 30 users on that 3900 and it'll still perform about the same? That's not even possible with current Wintel hardware. "There's more to computer performance than clock speed, folks." -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 9 15:20:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <99080915494607.00607@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > >Dhrystone clocks it at 1974 MIPS (aka 1.974 GIPS!) Truely it boggles the > >mind. I had to explain to our sysadmin how the uVAX 3900 sitting in my > >office was about the speed of a 386/25 and he nearly choked. First I think that is quite in error. First the clock on the 3900 is well above 25mhz and the CISC impmentation of the VAX used there is easily more of the 486dx/early Pentium class. > Yeah but did you explain that you can pile 30 users on that 3900 and it'll > still perform about the same? That's not even possible with current Wintel > hardware. > > "There's more to computer performance than clock speed, folks." Bigtime! back when pc and Vaxen were being pitted, the 386/16 was on par with a Vax750 if it had the FPU chip. Otherwise the vax could out math it. A real compare would be a NT box running many xterms and thin clients against a VAX... it would show how weak the PCs are. Vaxen with the high throughput IO for storage and all has all the advantages. Allison From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Aug 9 15:37:34 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General Message-ID: <002601bee2a7$03fbc500$d401a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Hum.... well... knowing what I know about HP corporate (their recent breakup of the business partnership between them and EMC was *VERY* confrontational) it makes me wonder if EMC purchasing data general isn't a "spite" move. When HP killed the HP/EMC partnership EMC lost 20% of their revenues... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 3:21 PM Subject: Re: EMC buys Data General >> >Dhrystone clocks it at 1974 MIPS (aka 1.974 GIPS!) Truely it boggles the >> >mind. I had to explain to our sysadmin how the uVAX 3900 sitting in my >> >office was about the speed of a 386/25 and he nearly choked. > >First I think that is quite in error. First the clock on the 3900 is well >above 25mhz and the CISC impmentation of the VAX used there is easily >more of the 486dx/early Pentium class. > >> Yeah but did you explain that you can pile 30 users on that 3900 and it'll >> still perform about the same? That's not even possible with current Wintel >> hardware. >> >> "There's more to computer performance than clock speed, folks." > >Bigtime! > >back when pc and Vaxen were being pitted, the 386/16 was on par with >a Vax750 if it had the FPU chip. Otherwise the vax could out math it. > >A real compare would be a NT box running many xterms and thin clients >against a VAX... it would show how weak the PCs are. Vaxen with the high >throughput IO for storage and all has all the advantages. > >Allison > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Aug 9 15:59:31 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <37AF2F93.1B78D548@digiweb.com> References: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990809135844.03f75580@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:44 PM 8/9/99 +0200, Hans wrote: >OK, do I get any points for HP with the PA-RISC? That definitely qualifies, and HP did make the HP21xx line which was both a minicomputer and original. So they count as "still standing." --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Aug 9 16:02:16 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <99080915494607.00607@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990809135958.03f767e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:47 PM 8/9/99 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah but did you explain that you can pile 30 users on that 3900 and it'll >still perform about the same? That's not even possible with current Wintel >hardware. I'd have to disagree Dave, we've got some P133's acting as servers with FreeBSD on them and they often get more than 30 users. The 3900 definitely does a better job at _balancing_ 30 users since there is a lot more compute power distributed throughout its I/O channels, which is the greatest failing for PCs. However, if either the NGIO of Future I/O groups succeed in displacing PCI off the motherboards of "Wintel" architectures that advantage will go away. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 12:55:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: 186 (was: CompuGraphics Question) In-Reply-To: <027e01bee204$adca1080$2d2e883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 9, 99 01:32:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/18a1ee70/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 12:59:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: 3Com 3Stations In-Reply-To: <027f01bee204$ae91f460$2d2e883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 9, 99 01:42:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/71a47232/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 13:04:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Aug 8, 99 09:15:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/c55753c3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 13:06:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <19990808.220232.215.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Aug 8, 99 09:48:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/dd8a560f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 13:13:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4634 hard copy unit In-Reply-To: <7deee6c.24dfba59@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Aug 9, 99 01:00:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 957 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/90edd875/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 13:20:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <199908091228.OAA13967@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 9, 99 02:28:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/353d6a1a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 13:09:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <37AE4985.33562567@centuryinter.net> from "Chris Cureau" at Aug 8, 99 10:22:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/045f0733/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 9 16:08:53 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Laptop Battery needed Message-ID: <8bee4ef5.24e09d65@aol.com> In a message dated 8/9/99 8:00:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gene@ehrich.com writes: > I need a battery for my IBM Thinkpad 500. > > Does anybody have one available or know where one can be obtained? > www.direct.ibm.com choose parts and perhiphs link. you can locate the fru and price for the battery. i've heard of a store called batteries plus that supposedly has lots of laptop batteries that might have it. worth checking out. -- d.b. young team os/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at- http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From ss at allegro.com Mon Aug 9 16:11:26 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199908092111.OAA31932@bart.allegro.com> Re: > I'm looking for other examples, but I believe this leaves IBM (System 360) > and Sun (SPARC) HP and (somewhat) Unisys. What abour mergers? (E.g., Burroughs / Sperry-Univac) Burroughs had several minicomputers (depending upon how you classify a mini-computer, of course). From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 9 17:10:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990809171035.3e574dca@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:26 AM 8/9/99 -0700, you wrote: >Another classic computer maker "bites" the dust. > >See: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,40250,00.html > >Which is a news.com story about how EMC (makers of storage products mostly) >will buy Data General for 1.1 billion in stock. This was the last of the >great mini-computer companies that had been left standing after DEC was >bought by Compaq. I guess that makes the DG Nova down here that needs rescuing an instant classic. Someone should grab it and put in on E-OverPay with a big pitch about how rare it is! Joe From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 9 16:42:24 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Weird ISA 80186 card In-Reply-To: References: <19990808.220232.215.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Aug 8, 99 09:48:49 pm Message-ID: I found a pile of cards, and sorry in advance for the poor memory, but I am curious about them. They are long ISA cards with a single nothing special (maybe DB25?, I forget) connector on the metal card end bracket. They have an NCR 80186 chip among others, and APL 186 may be marked on the bracket. Franklin Networks is on the card too (I think). I sorted them out of a box of cards, then put them back since I didn't have a clue about them. From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 9 18:11:39 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Tandy References: <01bee219$59e82b40$ad57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: <37AF602B.2D37@bellsouth.net> http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/tandy1000.html Here is another place where you may want to ask. Jim Webster END USER wrote: > > Does anyone have a MS-DOS/GW-BASIC reference > guide Ver. 3.0, and Deskmate magazines or manuals > for Tandy computers? > > sring@uslink.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 16:57:17 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General Message-ID: <19990809215717.16616.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > >Dhrystone clocks it at 1974 MIPS (aka 1.974 GIPS!) Truely it boggles the > > >mind. I had to explain to our sysadmin how the uVAX 3900 sitting in my > > >office was about the speed of a 386/25 and he nearly choked. > > > "There's more to computer performance than clock speed, folks." > > Bigtime! > > back when pc and Vaxen were being pitted, the 386/16 was on par with > a Vax750 if it had the FPU chip. Otherwise the vax could out math it. I always liked to see the looks on people's faces when I compared our VAX-11/750 (0.6 VUPS) with the *integer* performance of a Sega Genesis (8Mhz 68000). The reason we could support 20+ users on the VAX with 8Mb of memory was a) the 32-bit channel to disk and b) DMA outbound serial I/O (a wad of Emulex 16-port muxes). Of course, it was more fun to be the only user, especially when playing "Empire". -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Aug 9 16:46:34 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General Message-ID: <19990809.165756.203.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:10:35 Joe writes: > At 11:26 AM 8/9/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Another classic computer maker "bites" the dust. > > > >See: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,40250,00.html > > > >Which is a news.com story about how EMC (makers of storage products > mostly) > >will buy Data General for 1.1 billion in stock. This was the last > of the > >great mini-computer companies that had been left standing after DEC > was > >bought by Compaq. > > I guess that makes the DG Nova down here that needs rescuing an > instant > classic. Someone should grab it and put in on E-OverPay with a big > pitch > about how rare it is! > > Joe This would be one of those rare instances where hype would be mostly true . . . ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 16:13:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990809121925.03c9dcc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 9, 99 12:25:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/b61ee4cd/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 9 17:30:18 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Tandy In-Reply-To: <01bee219$59e82b40$ad57ddcc@enduser> Message-ID: <000301bee2b6$c26867a0$c2721fd1@5x86jk> Yes I have them packed in the warehouse in Houston, will be going down there next month. What are you needing or you just looking for all the issues you can find? -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of END USER Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 10:44 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Tandy Does anyone have a MS-DOS/GW-BASIC reference guide Ver. 3.0, and Deskmate magazines or manuals for Tandy computers? sring@uslink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/3e1c6ef5/attachment.html From elvey at hal.com Mon Aug 9 19:54:05 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Information on part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908100054.RAA29172@civic.hal.com> Hi I need information on a 2793. I know what it is, 'just need to know how it is the same and how it differs from some controller like a 8272. I looked at the obvious places on the net without results. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 20:18:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Information on part In-Reply-To: <199908100054.RAA29172@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Aug 9, 99 05:54:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 903 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/2f471db5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 20:20:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:42 2005 Subject: Who was I talking to about the HP9100? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 262 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/2776656b/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 9 20:38:18 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Information on part Message-ID: <000701bee2d1$06718de0$0400c0a8@winbook> The WD2797 has little in common with the i8272. It is essentially a WD1793 with a built-in PLL for clock recovery. The instructions are, I think, the same as those for the WD1793. The clock recovery circuit works adequately for data rates suitable for 5.25" drives, but is less than wonderful for the 8" drives. It was used with great success on the 5.25" drive interfaces on Western Digital's line of bridge controllers. AFAIK, it was not as well received as the 9229 and 9216, both of which were digital clock recovery circuits suitable for use with 8" drives. These were popular enough, however, that someone on the list probably has already scanned the data sheet. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 6:59 PM Subject: Information on part >Hi > I need information on a 2793. I know what it is, 'just need >to know how it is the same and how it differs from some >controller like a 8272. > I looked at the obvious places on the net without results. >Dwight > From elvey at hal.com Mon Aug 9 21:08:59 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Information on part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908100209.TAA29204@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I have the Western Digital data sheet for this chip, and I can provide > more info if you let me know what you need. > > -tony Hi Tony Sounds like I need a copy or at least port and command list. can you scan these and send them to me? Dwight From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Aug 9 21:01:30 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurbish question (7900A) Message-ID: <001801bee2d4$4480fa00$0101a8c0@jay> I finally got around to putting a new lower platter into my 7900A. Kinda hard to do from underneath, but it's done. Now I'm getting ready to take the lower heads out for thorough cleaning. Before I do, I wanted to ask some advice... When I powered the drive up before, I could hear minor HDI (very slight scraping). Upon inspection it was obviously the lower platter that was missing a track of oxide. The heads had oxide on them but they didn't look all that bad to me. Most of the folks on the list (and a few people I talked to voice) said just replace the lower platter and clean the bottom heads and all would probably be well. Two questions: 1) Everyone said because the lower platter is fixed, there's no concern for alignment, precision, feeler guages, etc. Just unbolt the heads, clean 'em, and bolt 'em back on. No special checks and so forth. Before I unbolt them I wanted to double check and make sure I wasn't about to do anything silly. So - just unbolt, remove, clean, rebolt, and power up? 2) I was thinking (bad sign )...if the heads contacted the platter enough to scrape off a nice circle of oxide, won't cleaning the heads and replacing the platter accomplish nothing? What I mean is - isn't it very likely that whatever caused them to scrape in the first place won't be fixed by a new lower platter and cleaned heads? What am I missing here? Thanks in advance for the education on 14" hard discs! Jay West From macierno at cvm.msstate.edu Mon Aug 9 22:33:07 1999 From: macierno at cvm.msstate.edu (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific 1p Message-ID: Just obtained a 1p and have two questions 1) how does this differ from the C1P which I had in high school (other than they slapped a nicer looking plastic case over the metal case)? 2)Does anyone have any software for it? I had a whole bunch (but that was 1981)!I can still remember a company called AARDVARK SOFTWARE sold a bunch of great games........ mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From danburrows at mindspring.com Mon Aug 9 21:30:17 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurbish question (7900A) Message-ID: <004601bee2d8$7b1cc950$0f0a0a0a@l166> >1) Everyone said because the lower platter is fixed, there's no concern for >alignment, precision, feeler guages, etc. Just unbolt the heads, clean 'em, >and bolt 'em back on. No special checks and so forth. Before I unbolt them I >wanted to double check and make sure I wasn't about to do anything silly. >So - just unbolt, remove, clean, rebolt, and power up? Don't forget to vacumn the dust!!! And change the air filter. > >2) I was thinking (bad sign )...if the heads contacted the platter >enough to scrape off a nice circle of oxide, won't cleaning the heads and >replacing the platter accomplish nothing? What I mean is - isn't it very >likely that whatever caused them to scrape in the first place won't be fixed >by a new lower platter and cleaned heads? What am I missing here? The first time you spin it up I would unplug the head positioner and let it spin for 10 minutes without the heads loading to be sure to get the last of the dust out. I don't know if the HP will stay spinning if it does not find a servo track however. If it doesn't then spin it up and down several times before allowing the heads to load. What you have done along with above comments are all I ever used to do. Dan From ss at allegro.com Mon Aug 9 21:45:15 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Who was I talking to about the HP9100? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908100245.TAA19704@bart.allegro.com> Hi, > A few months back I had a private e-mail conversation about the HP9100 > calculator with somebody on this list. And I've forgotten who it was It probably wasn't me, even though I'd like to get one! Stan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 9 21:49:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Stuff in Richardson, Texas followup Message-ID: Ok, I spoke to the employee handling the purge of obsolete equipment at the company in Richardson, Texas. Here's the deal: they would prefer if someone could just come and haul all the crap away and be done with it. They don't want anything for it, just for it to be hauled away. More has been added to the pile since the list I posted, but I don't know what. I'm going to probably be in the Dallas area at the end of this month or beginning of September for probably the last time in the forseeable future. I may make one visit or two or maybe even several, I don't know. But, the point is that I can make arrangements with anyone in that area who wants to meet me at the company and haul the crap away. Then you can do what you please with the stuff. Sell it at a profit to others, be nice and give it away for 1.2*shipping, etc. So I put out the call to anyone in the Dallas region who is interested in taking this on to e-mail me and figure out what to do with this stuff. To those who have expressed an interest so far in some of the stuff, I'll e-mail you separately about what happens next. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From mmcgraw74 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 23:05:59 1999 From: mmcgraw74 at hotmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Message-ID: <19990810041023.94521.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm looking for an old Tektronix 4051 or 4052 graphics computer. Thanks in advance, Monty McGraw Spring, TX -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990809/1315cd35/attachment.html From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 10 00:03:04 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurbish question (7900A) In-Reply-To: <001801bee2d4$4480fa00$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990809220304.03952908@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:01 PM 08/09/1999 -0500, Jay West wrote: >I finally got around to putting a new lower platter into my 7900A. Kinda >hard to do from underneath, but it's done. > > >2) I was thinking (bad sign )...if the heads contacted the platter >enough to scrape off a nice circle of oxide, won't cleaning the heads and >replacing the platter accomplish nothing? What I mean is - isn't it very >likely that whatever caused them to scrape in the first place won't be fixed >by a new lower platter and cleaned heads? What am I missing here? Well, thinking to the positive side (like the crash was caused by some form of contamination on the platter that was not purged at startup - and this is now corrected) the main thing to keep in mind is that the 'flying' heads must retain their aerodynamic shape in order to function properly, so a very close inspection is in order. Look for any scratches in the head surfaces, cracks or gouges on the edges, debris in the head gap (not found on all heads). If all of the above looks good, and the head carrier frame is straight and still properly sprung, and all is firmly attached to the actuator, then following a good cleaning you have a pretty good chance of them behaving themselves. YMMV - required disclaimer B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Aug 10 03:21:11 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: MsWorks for DOS? Message-ID: <01bee309$4ddb96c0$779ba6d1@the-general> Hi! I was wondering if anyone had an old copy of MS-Works (3.0?) for DOS that they'd be willing to email to me trade something for (I have some old Mac and IBM programs). I'm looking for a copy of the install disks to install in an old ZDS SuperSport. The JVC HD recently seized in it, and I bought a new one (Alps) through www.zdsparts.com . Luckily, I had all of my documents backed up on disk, but unfortunately, the MS-Works that was on the Zenith was the only copy of MS-Works I have, and it was on there when I bought the computer. I'm currently using WordPerfect 5.0, which doesn't recognize Works format, or have spreadsheet / database. I also really don't feel like spending the money to buy a new version of Works to just convert the files to WordPerfect. (Word '97 doesn't read Works 3.0 for DOS format files, either.) ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Aug 10 00:09:48 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: In a message dated 08/09/1999 5:07:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Hmmm... I didn't realise there was a lack of info on 1980's packaging > (most manufacturers did much the same thing). Perhaps they did. Perhaps not. Nonetheless this is a poor excuse for trashing original packaging, unless you are forced to because of lack of space. A piece of history is in your hands, to do with as you choose. > > interesting, too!). Additionally, collectors will certainly pay a premium > > for an item which includes some or all of the original peripheral "trash." > That implies I collect as an investment, which I don't. I collect because > I love old computers. I have no intention of _ever_ selling anything on. I'm not an investment collector, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that you are. However, when I finally croak, I hope that someone finds as much useful enjoyment in these machines as I do. If not, I hope my survivors sell them for top dollar, styrofoam and all. On the other hand, my wife might just sweep them all into the bin ;>) > You obviously don't know how little space I have here. Of course I don't, having never seen your storage area! Which is why I suggested that an abundance of space was required in order to keep all of the associated "trash." For crying out loud, Tony, lighten up! You ask for suggestions and then ridicule the replies! Sheesh! Glen Goodwin 0/0 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 10 00:30:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: PERQ Logic Systems Message-ID: Here's an interesting company that purports to be in the business of: "Supporting clients with older, "obsolete" computer equipment, including, but not limited to, DEC PDP-11's, PERQ graphic workstations, various workstations and other machines running UNIX, DEC VAXen, and various personal computers running CP/M, MP/M and MS-DOS." http://www.perqlogic.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Aug 9 20:45:45 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: MsWorks for DOS? In-Reply-To: <01bee309$4ddb96c0$779ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199908100540.BAA26510@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 01:21:11 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Jason (the General)" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: MsWorks for DOS? > X-To: > Hi! > > I was wondering if anyone had an old copy of MS-Works (3.0?) for DOS that > they'd be willing to email to me trade something for (I have some old Mac > and IBM programs). > > I'm looking for a copy of the install disks to install in an old ZDS > SuperSport. The JVC HD recently seized in it, and I bought a new one (Alps) > through www.zdsparts.com . Luckily, I had all of my documents backed up on > disk, but unfortunately, the MS-Works that was on the Zenith was the only > copy of MS-Works I have, and it was on there when I bought the computer. > My comments... Be warned that ALPS hd is also not as reliable either, keep your data safe! Another JVC hd bitten the dust... Ugh. Move off to another Zenith portable that use real 3.5" 40pin IDE hd like Superport 286 (that one with double hinge kind with side floppy on right side or SLT 286 or SLT 386s/20 or any older notebooks that use 2.5" IDE hd not the TP 700/720 series. Enjoy! Wizard From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 10 01:31:54 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurbish question (7900A) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990809220304.03952908@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Is this a simple thing to do? One of my Fuji 160s needs a new platter (lost nearly a centimeter of oxide, visible through the plexiglass cover), but I figured I'd ruin it in the process (unbalancing, etc) so I was just going to decrease the number of heads the driver expects and let it run. Where does one find out which platter to buy and where to buy it? TIA jake From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 10 02:49:16 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Weird ISA 80186 card In-Reply-To: References: <19990808.220232.215.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" Message-ID: >I found a pile of cards, and sorry in advance for the poor memory, but I am >curious about them. > >They are long ISA cards with a single nothing special (maybe DB25?, I >forget) connector on the metal card end bracket. They have an NCR 80186 >chip among others, and APL 186 may be marked on the bracket. Franklin >Networks is on the card too (I think). I sorted them out of a box of cards, >then put them back since I didn't have a clue about them. I was curious enough to stop back in and dig one out again. Here is better data. Franklin Telecom, ACP186, and the metal bracket connector is something like a HD80. The rest is basically correct, ISA card etc. From steve.lubbers at barco.com Tue Aug 10 07:11:16 1999 From: steve.lubbers at barco.com (steve.lubbers@barco.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: RT-11, How do you Message-ID: Using RT-11 V5.01, on an 11/03 with a Dual RX02 drive, I would like to compare the files on two disks. Since it appears that the disk I booted from must remain in the drive, how do I compare two other disks? Steve From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 09:37:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question)) In-Reply-To: References: <027e01bee204$adca1080$2d2e883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Aug 9, 99 01:32:32 am Message-ID: <199908101238.OAA15959@horus.mch.sni.de> >>>....I think you can learn as much from a Beeb or an Apple ][ as >>>from a PC. If not more. >> Personally I'd say more. > Well, it depends on what you want to learn. There are some things (OOP, > for example) that would be difficult to teach on a Beeb or Apple ][. > There are some things (hardware operaion) that are very difficult to > teach with a modern PC. My keyword - A 'simple' machine like an A2 or an IBM/XT is exaxtly the very best environment to teach OOP. After all, OOP is NOT about typeing some :: or ->'s, but rather a way of structur, controll and information flow, a way of thinking and organisation. I belive the best way to learn OOP, and not just handling of a special OOable compiler is doing OOP with simple classic languages (preferably Assembler (but thats just my personal favorite)) >> A few years ago I decided to get a formal qualification in electronics (I've > Lucky you :-). As I've mentioned before, I have no qualifications in > electronics or computing. Makes two of us :) > > microProfessors and similar 6502 based boards (I forget their name....hex > > keypad, couple of VIAs, LED readout etc). > There were many such boards (for all the processors). The other famous > 6502 one is the Acorn System 1, but they're not that common. Acron System 1 ? Another beast from the island I'm not aware of ? Any resources ? > > "Primitive" systems like these (and Apples and Beebs) I think are far better > > animals on which to learn the inner workings of computers, far too much is > Agreed. And not only for learning about CPU and absolut basics, but also the ideal for any 'higher' topic, since there is (almost) _no_ distraction possible. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 09:37:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Weird ISA 80186 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199908101238.OAA15962@horus.mch.sni.de> > >I found a pile of cards, and sorry in advance for the poor memory, but I am > >curious about them. > >They are long ISA cards with a single nothing special (maybe DB25?, I > >forget) connector on the metal card end bracket. They have an NCR 80186 > >chip among others, and APL 186 may be marked on the bracket. Franklin > >Networks is on the card too (I think). I sorted them out of a box of cards, > >then put them back since I didn't have a clue about them. > I was curious enough to stop back in and dig one out again. Here is better > data. > Franklin Telecom, ACP186, and the metal bracket connector is something like > a HD80. The rest is basically correct, ISA card etc. Ahh, now the bell rings - ACP186, today named ICA186, an 8 port card for terminal and/or LAN/WAN connections. There are lots of different software configurations available to setup multi- protocoll PADs and Routers with this beast using DOS or Unix. These cards can be used to provide TCP/IP routing over frame relay and/or X25, transparent LAN acces over SNA/SDLC for 3270/3780 BSC, Burroughs, Univac or Honeywell protocolls and last but not least of course Async. Or connect these protocolls direct to X25. maybe check the franklin pages for more info http://www.ftel.com/ Hint: look for MPP (Multi Protocoll PADs) The boards are more or less junk without the soft. Unless you want to have some small sub CPUs in your AT :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mbg at world.std.com Tue Aug 10 07:43:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: RT-11, How do you Message-ID: <199908101243.AA16534@world.std.com> >Using RT-11 V5.01, on an 11/03 with a Dual RX02 drive, >I would like to compare the files on two disks. Since it appears that >the disk I booted from must remain in the drive, how do I compare two >other disks? You can't... the device/file comparison programs don't have the code which allows them to mount another volume for the operation and then mount the system volume (the /wait option in other utilities). Best you can do is copy the files to a common volume and compare them there... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 09:54:56 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908101255.OAA17127@horus.mch.sni.de> > A company in Richardson, Texas wants to get rid of some fairly classic > stuff. > IBM PC/XT w/System/36 interface board > IBM PC monochrome display Seams quite clear, but whats that ? > IBM System/36 Desktop (Type 5364) AFAIK, the 5364 is a Network/Cluster controller to connect /36 and AS400 peripherals... Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 09:58:09 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908101259.OAA17391@horus.mch.sni.de> >>> interesting, too!). Additionally, collectors will certainly pay a premium >>> for an item which includes some or all of the original peripheral "trash." >> That implies I collect as an investment, which I don't. I collect because >> I love old computers. I have no intention of _ever_ selling anything on. > I'm not an investment collector, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that > you are. However, when I finally croak, I hope that someone finds as much > useful enjoyment in these machines as I do. If not, I hope my survivors sell > them for top dollar, styrofoam and all. On the other hand, my wife might > just sweep them all into the bin ;>) Well, and don't forget the feelin when pulling a new unit out of the original box - and you can do it over and over! Christmas ! Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Aug 10 09:31:06 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:43 2005 Subject: FW: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37b13780.243582883@smtp.jps.net> Fellow here has some good VAXen stuff pretty cheap. Contact directly if you're interested. -=-=- -=-=- On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>From: wetboy >>Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) >>Lines: 29 >>Message-ID: >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.233.85.1 >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net >>X-Trace: news.shore.net 934282930 192.233.85.1 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT) >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT >>Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) >>Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:785 >> >>MicroVax II: >> >> BA123 case >> RD53 >> 9 MB ram >> TK50 >> VMS 5.3 >> >>MicroVax 2000: >> >> RD32 >> 6 MB ram (IIRC) >> VMS 4.5B >> >> >>VT320, LA75 >> >>Most of VMS 5.0 "grey wall" (some >>notebooks later than 5.0). >> >> >>All for $50.00 >> >>Pick up near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. >> >>E-mail me if you are interested. >> >> >>-- Wetboy -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 11:33:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Mailüfterl In-Reply-To: <000201bee11c$98fe7760$6459883e@dangermouse> Message-ID: <199908101434.QAA24023@horus.mch.sni.de> Hi, There's an interesting interview with Heinz Zemanek at Telepolis (a german net-magazine). The article is in German, but I guess you all have Babelfish as hotkey :) http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/5163/1.html http://babelfish.altavista.com/cgi-bin/translate?jss&urltext=http%3A//www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/5163/1.html There's also a picture of the Mailüfterl (Bavarian for a soft brise in may). FYI, the Mailüftern was the worlds first transistorized computer (Well, personaly I still go for the SIEMENS 2002, since both came to life with only a few weeks difference, but while the Mailüfterl was a single instance machine build at the Vienna Univ, the 2002 was already a production machine, build in 'large' quantities - BTW: all this happened when Tubes still ruled the computer bussines and paralell to the Whirlwind (check the name :)) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 10 11:19:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas In-Reply-To: <199908101255.OAA17127@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > IBM PC/XT w/System/36 interface board > > IBM PC monochrome display > > Seams quite clear, but whats that ? I would imagine an XT that can act as a terminal to a System/36. > > IBM System/36 Desktop (Type 5364) > > AFAIK, the 5364 is a Network/Cluster controller to connect > /36 and AS400 peripherals... Thanks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 10 11:23:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Re=3A_Mail=FCfterl?= In-Reply-To: <199908101434.QAA24023@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > There's an interesting interview with Heinz Zemanek > at Telepolis (a german net-magazine). The article > is in German, but I guess you all have Babelfish > as hotkey :) > > http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/5163/1.html > > http://babelfish.altavista.com/cgi-bin/translate?jss&urltext=http%3A//www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/5163/1.html Babelfish only translate the first half or so of the page for some reason. I guess you have to buy Babelfish software to get the whole thing? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 13:34:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas In-Reply-To: References: <199908101255.OAA17127@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908101635.SAA29928@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > IBM PC/XT w/System/36 interface board > > > IBM PC monochrome display > > Seams quite clear, but whats that ? > I would imagine an XT that can act as a terminal to a System/36. Sorry, should read: ...but what's that: > > > IBM System/36 Desktop (Type 5364) > > AFAIK, the 5364 is a Network/Cluster controller to connect > > /36 and AS400 peripherals... -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 10 13:34:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Mailüfterl In-Reply-To: References: <199908101434.QAA24023@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908101635.SAA29925@horus.mch.sni.de> Date sent: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > There's an interesting interview with Heinz Zemanek > > at Telepolis (a german net-magazine). The article > > is in German, but I guess you all have Babelfish > > as hotkey :) > > http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/5163/1.html > > http://babelfish.altavista.com/cgi-bin/translate?jss&urltext=http%3A//www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/5163/1.html > Babelfish only translate the first half or so of the page for some reason. > I guess you have to buy Babelfish software to get the whole thing? Jep, thats their intention, but as a work around, you can download the whole page (check the download button) and feed it in short pices into their page. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 10 12:01:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas In-Reply-To: <199908101635.SAA29928@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > Sorry, should read: > ...but what's that: > > > > IBM System/36 Desktop (Type 5364) > > > AFAIK, the 5364 is a Network/Cluster controller to connect > > > /36 and AS400 peripherals... I don't remember its features. I saw it months ago. It very well may be just a controller as opposed to a mini System/36 (it wasn't that big). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 10 13:09:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 In-Reply-To: <19990810041023.94521.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990810130927.493fed8c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Monty, Good Luck! I only know of two 4051s and only one 4052. I have one of the 4051s. None of them are for sale. Are you looking for one to collect or what? Joe At 11:05 PM 8/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >I'm looking for an old Tektronix 4051 or 4052 graphics computer. > >Thanks in advance, > >Monty McGraw >Spring, TX > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\Tektroni.htm" > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 10 13:15:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: MsWorks for DOS? In-Reply-To: <01bee309$4ddb96c0$779ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990810131559.4447356c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jason, I had a copy of MS-Works but I think I gave it away. I'll look around and let you know if I find it. I think I have some disks for the old ZDS SuperSport but I think all they have on them is DOS. Is that what you're looking for or are you looking for other files. There are a couple of DOS files that were unique to the ZDS machines, they should be on the disks that I have. Joe At 01:21 AM 8/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi! > >I was wondering if anyone had an old copy of MS-Works (3.0?) for DOS that >they'd be willing to email to me trade something for (I have some old Mac >and IBM programs). > >I'm looking for a copy of the install disks to install in an old ZDS >SuperSport. The JVC HD recently seized in it, and I bought a new one (Alps) >through www.zdsparts.com . Luckily, I had all of my documents backed up on >disk, but unfortunately, the MS-Works that was on the Zenith was the only >copy of MS-Works I have, and it was on there when I bought the computer. > >I'm currently using WordPerfect 5.0, which doesn't recognize Works format, >or have spreadsheet / database. I also really don't feel like spending the >money to buy a new version of Works to just convert the files to >WordPerfect. (Word '97 doesn't read Works 3.0 for DOS format files, >either.) > >ThAnX, >///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > From mmcgraw74 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 13:05:19 1999 From: mmcgraw74 at hotmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Message-ID: <19990810180520.44757.qmail@hotmail.com> I bought a Tek4051 while in the USAF in 1978. I developed several programs using the 4051 for data collection and reduction. I would like to find one, probably for the nostalgia, I still have the my old program listings. I saw the recent thread on the EXEC command, I figured out the EXEC command and wrote a couple of 6800 assembly language programs (play music, dump the ROMs to the printer, etc). As I recall the format of the command was EXEC A$, where the string was typically read from the tape as a single file. Monty McGraw >From: Joe >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >Subject: Re: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:09:27 > >Monty, > > Good Luck! I only know of two 4051s and only one 4052. I have one of >the >4051s. None of them are for sale. Are you looking for one to collect or >what? > > Joe > >At 11:05 PM 8/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm looking for an old Tektronix 4051 or 4052 graphics computer. > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Monty McGraw > >Spring, TX > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\Tektroni.htm" > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From bill at chipware.com Tue Aug 10 13:53:18 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific 1p In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01bee361$9c6dd890$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Just obtained a 1p and have two questions > > 1) how does this differ from the C1P which I had in high school > (other than > they slapped a nicer looking plastic case over the metal case)? > > 2)Does anyone have any software for it? I had a whole bunch (but that was > 1981)!I can still remember a company called AARDVARK SOFTWARE sold a bunch > of great games........ Everybody is probably waiting for me to answer this... 1) It has a 600 Rev. B board in it. It's identical to a metal case C1P. Obviously, if it has other add-on boards, say a 610, 620 or 630, then it will have additional capabilities. Open it up and see what's in there. 2) I'm hacking CP/M on an IMSAI right now, but when I get tired of that, I'm going to be putting about 40 C1P programs (a lot of them from Aardvark) on a CD and distributing them for cost. Eventually, I'm going to put up an OSI web site which will have .WAV (or MP3 or whatever is smallest) files of software available so you can make your own tapes/CDs/whatever. Bill Sudbrink From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Aug 10 10:09:06 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... In-Reply-To: <002701bee0b1$9fdc4a00$f23dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <199908101913.PAA24488@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Aug 99 at 18:48, Olminkhof wrote: > > > >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with > 2 > >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. > > > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, > >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. > > > > > Nope. > > You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have an > error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of > simms. > > It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs. > > > >///--->>> > > -Jason Willgruber > >> > >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. > >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence > >>detect circuitry. > >> > >>Hans > >> TMK most IBMs (as well as Ataris, Macs and NEXT) require matching simms in pairs, and as well presence detect in the case of MCA. There is a hardware hack to get around the P.D. on Peter Wendts site. While I have never tried to add a single simm physically except to expand the onboard memory of my 8580 to 4m from 2 , IIRC all the docs mention this. I would certainly be delighted if this were not so. I have an IBM 486 Ambra (non-MCA) which also requires memory in pairs but doesn't require PD and a single spare non-IBM 8meg which sits unused because of this limitation. I have an 8570 A-21 desktop (25mhz and 387 co-processor) and other PS2s. There is also a 16 meg max limitation on most of the PS2s altho there are workarounds for this I understand. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Aug 10 14:25:24 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... In-Reply-To: <199908101913.PAA24488@smtp.interlog.com> from Lawrence Walker at "Aug 10, 1999 03:09:06 pm" Message-ID: <199908101925.TAA25889@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On 7 Aug 99 at 18:48, Olminkhof wrote: > > > > > > > >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with > > 2 > > >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. > > > > > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, > > >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have an > > error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of > > simms. > > > > It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs. > > > > > > >///--->>> > > > -Jason Willgruber > > >> > > >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. > > >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence > > >>detect circuitry. > > >> > > >>Hans > > >> > > TMK most IBMs (as well as Ataris, Macs and NEXT) require matching simms in > pairs, and as well presence detect in the case of MCA. There is a hardware hack > to get around the P.D. on Peter Wendts site. While I have never tried to add a > single simm physically except to expand the onboard memory of my 8580 to 4m > from 2 , IIRC all the docs mention this. I would certainly be delighted if > this were not so. I have an IBM 486 Ambra (non-MCA) which also requires memory > in pairs but doesn't require PD and a single spare non-IBM 8meg which sits > unused because of this limitation. I have an 8570 A-21 desktop (25mhz and 387 > co-processor) and other PS2s. There is also a 16 meg max limitation on most of > the PS2s altho there are workarounds for this I understand. > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com > I thought that at least one of the PS/2 model 70 motherboard versions came with 3 simm slots... I dont recall it needing simms in pairs on the motherboard, though it does use a non-standard, PS/2 style presence detect. Does the original poster have a free MCA slot for a ram expansion board? I have one for a PS/2 model 70, that I assume would work in your system, assuming you have the reference diskette for your machine. -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 10 14:36:43 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Weird ISA 80186 card In-Reply-To: <199908101238.OAA15962@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: >Ahh, now the bell rings - ACP186, today named ICA186, an 8 port >card for terminal and/or LAN/WAN connections. There are lots of >different software configurations available to setup multi- >protocoll PADs and Routers with this beast using DOS or Unix. > >These cards can be used to provide TCP/IP routing over frame >relay and/or X25, transparent LAN acces over SNA/SDLC for >3270/3780 BSC, Burroughs, Univac or Honeywell protocolls >and last but not least of course Async. Or connect these >protocolls direct to X25. > >maybe check the franklin pages for more info >http://www.ftel.com/ >Hint: look for MPP (Multi Protocoll PADs) > >The boards are more or less junk without the soft. >Unless you want to have some small sub CPUs in your AT :) Thanks, I knew someone on this list would know. ;) If I can I think I will add them to my next pile and see if they attract some software. Maybe even a cable. ;) Any chance these cards might work with a larger modem sized box called a CompuTone with what looks like 16 RJ(not sure if 11 or 45) ports on it and a single DB something 3 row connector? From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 10 14:40:07 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: SoCal Salvage, ALR, HP 1000 In-Reply-To: <199908101238.OAA15962@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: One salvage place has a load of ALR (Advanced Logic Research) stuff going through it. Mostly all the old "stuff" that tends to accumulate in a firm, and then goes when it gets bought. Lots of ALR bits like big chassis, some triple pentium pro boards, boxes of power supplies. Later this week they tell me a complete HP 1000 is coming in, but no details yet. All above located in SoCal. From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 10 14:45:07 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: SoCal Salvage, ALR, HP 1000 Message-ID: <00c001bee368$d9c7b380$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I would be MOST interested in the HP1000 (*VERY* much so if it includes a 7900A or 7905), but would need to know what peripherals are in it. Please let me know as soon as you can find out - shipping from CA to me isn't a problem.... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: SoCal Salvage, ALR, HP 1000 >One salvage place has a load of ALR (Advanced Logic Research) stuff going >through it. Mostly all the old "stuff" that tends to accumulate in a firm, >and then goes when it gets bought. Lots of ALR bits like big chassis, some >triple pentium pro boards, boxes of power supplies. > >Later this week they tell me a complete HP 1000 is coming in, but no >details yet. > >All above located in SoCal. > > > From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Aug 10 15:03:19 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: <4.1.19990810122035.00a16270@199.108.34.2> Various people said: >> > The Commodore 64 _could_ run CP/M programs...provided one had the >> > optional Z80 cartridge...though I never tried myself. :-) The 128 was the >> > first Commodore machine to actually boot CP/M disks with a 1571 drive, if I >> > remember correctly. >> >> Well so _could_ the PDP-8 if someone built the necessary hardware or wrote >> a simulator for it :) > >And so can a Macintosh if you run a terminal emulator and connect the >serial port to a Northstar Horizon. :-) I point is that Commodore had the foresight to put a "DMA" line on the Expansion Port so that an external device could tri-state the address lines on the 6510, effectively removing the 6510 from the memory map. Which makes it very easy to run the C64 with multiple processors or just a different processor. The C64 CP/M cartridge was set-up so that you could have 6502 code embedded in your Z80 code. You just need to set a certain register every time you wanted to switch processors. That coupled with the fact that you could swap out all the ROM and all of the I/O leaving a continue 64K ram space, makes the C64 a hardware hacker's dream. Just my two cents. --Doug =================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr Software Engineer mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Visit the new Analog Computer Museum and History Center at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog =================================================== From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 12:38:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Information on part In-Reply-To: <000701bee2d1$06718de0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 9, 99 07:38:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 849 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/a2c02384/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 12:52:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurbish question (7900A) In-Reply-To: <001801bee2d4$4480fa00$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 9, 99 09:01:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3814 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/27e92444/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:36:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Information on part In-Reply-To: <199908100209.TAA29204@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Aug 9, 99 07:08:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/4b9012f0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:38:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Who was I talking to about the HP9100? In-Reply-To: <199908100245.TAA19704@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at Aug 9, 99 07:45:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/bd4044e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:49:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Aug 10, 99 01:09:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/819df5bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 14:55:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: PERQ Logic Systems In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 9, 99 10:30:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/92e18c0a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 15:02:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurbish question (7900A) In-Reply-To: from "Jacob Ritorto" at Aug 10, 99 02:31:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/259cc3bd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 15:15:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question)) In-Reply-To: <199908101238.OAA15959@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 10, 99 02:38:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2950 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/0e91eb9d/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 10 15:47:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: VCF hotel room block now available Message-ID: I just secured a block of 20 rooms at the Biltmore Hotel and Suites in Santa Clara for VCF 3.0. This is the same hotel we used last year, and they were very good to us. The room rate is $69 or $89 a night depending on how much you want to spend. I stayed a night in each room (the regular rooms and the tower suites) last year and both were comfortable and clean (of course the tower suites were much nicer :) $69 a night for a room in Santa Clara is a prtty damn good deal actually. All the information you would need to reserve a room can be found at: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/hotel.htm Act soon. The deadline to register at the VCF rate is September 3. Be sure to ask for the Vintage Computer Festival room rate. If you have trouble you can probably ask for Sabina, whom I negotiated with. Please e-mail me as well if you do. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 10 16:07:14 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... Message-ID: <011001bee374$52433400$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Ok, I know this sounds crazy.... One person told me that if the heads were heavily oxidized, that they could be cleaned with a soft toothbrush and TOOTHPASTE (followed by a rinsing in 91% alcohol)??????? Anyone know if this is crazy or advisable? TIA Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 16:16:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... In-Reply-To: <011001bee374$52433400$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Aug 10, 99 04:07:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990810/c86ba5e6/attachment.ksh From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Aug 10 16:58:05 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? Message-ID: <6a822dee.24e1fa6d@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/99 3:30:46 PM EST, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: << We've had many discussions here about whether it is better to restore a machine (and thus instal unoriginal parts) or whether it is better to keep everything original and live with it not working. For me, there is no contest here - I like to use my old machines, and thus I try to get them working. Fixing them is half the fun anyway :-). >> I agree! I like stuff I can use. The only non-working stuff I keep (besides packaging material ;>) is that which has spare parts for my working machines, or machines I hope to acquire in the future. << Ooops... I thought almost everyone here was short of space... >> Well, some of us collect the "small" stuff & we can get a lot of it on a five foot shelf ;>) I'm also blessed with a wife who understands my hobby (if I'm tinkering with this crap she knows where I am . . .) << People here have made some good points as to why I should keep the original box, so for the moment at least, it stays. >> Right on! The dumpster loses again! Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From elvey at hal.com Tue Aug 10 17:10:52 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:44 2005 Subject: Information on part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908102210.PAA02449@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: ---snip--- > It's going to be easier for me to type in some stuff here... Great stuff! ---snip--- > > Write Track : 1 1 1 1 0 E 0 0 > Writes an entire track, including headers. Used for formatting the disk. > I posted how to do this a couple of weeks back, so I don't feel like > doing it again. I hope to use preformatted IBM disk so I don't need to look at formatting. I've done a FDC driver for a XT controller so I'm sure I can handle this one. It is on a 'C186 unit. The controller is on a SBX card. I would suspect that it does have a density select register in hardware, similar to what was done on AT's. Thanks Dwight From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 10 17:38:08 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Stuff available in Richardson, Texas In-Reply-To: <199908101255.OAA17127@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > > IBM PC/XT w/System/36 interface board > > Seams quite clear, but whats that ? The interface board is needed to have a console for the Sys /36 > > AFAIK, the 5364 is a Network/Cluster controller to connect > /36 and AS400 peripherals... No, it's a standalone miniframe. I have one. It was puled from a physical therapy company.. was used for patient information and billing. > Gruss > H. Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 10 17:47:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... Message-ID: <003601bee382$42f5a100$0400c0a8@winbook> You'd be better advised to use a really fine diamond lapping paste as you might obtain from an industrial supplier. There are fine enough pastes available that one can lap to a .000003" finish . . . essential if you're making Jo-blocks, but probably overkill for your task. If you contact an outfit like Manhattan Supply Corp, which has branches throughout the U.S, you'll find something suitable and probably in a quantity you can afford. If you're worried about the head flatness, I'd not try this trick until you're more sure of yourself, though. -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 3:24 PM Subject: Re: 14" hard drive refurb.... >> >> Ok, I know this sounds crazy.... >> >> One person told me that if the heads were heavily oxidized, that they could >> be cleaned with a soft toothbrush and TOOTHPASTE (followed by a rinsing in >> 91% alcohol)??????? >> >> Anyone know if this is crazy or advisable? > >Toothpaste is a fairly mild abrasive that does sometimes help in >cleaning/polishing things. I've used it on the plastic covers from panel >meters, for example. > >But I'd not use it on a disk head. My feeling is that you will damage the >surface. I doubt if you'd ever get it flat enough to work. > >No real evidence, though, but I sure wouldn't try it. > >-tony > From elvey at hal.com Tue Aug 10 17:57:20 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... In-Reply-To: <011001bee374$52433400$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <199908102257.PAA02476@civic.hal.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Ok, I know this sounds crazy.... > > One person told me that if the heads were heavily oxidized, that they could > be cleaned with a soft toothbrush and TOOTHPASTE (followed by a rinsing in > 91% alcohol)??????? > > Anyone know if this is crazy or advisable? > > TIA > > Jay West Hi Jay Years ago, while working for Intel, our group received a 10 Meg hard drive ( one fixed/one removable platter ) that had been water damaged. The fixed disk had been damaged and coating from the disk was built up on the head. We used a Q tip and rubbing alcohol to clean the head and used it for the remainder of time I was at Intel. We used an extra removable platter as a source to replace the damaged fixed disk. I would suggest using jewelers rouge or some optical grade cerium oxide instead of tooth paste. Remember that the tolerances on these old heads was a lot slacker than current day heads. It is mostly important that the head doesn't have spikes that might drag on the platter. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 10 18:56:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... Message-ID: <199908102356.AA11998@world.std.com> <> One person told me that if the heads were heavily oxidized, that they cou <> be cleaned with a soft toothbrush and TOOTHPASTE (followed by a rinsing i <> 91% alcohol)??????? Don't. has that person ever dealt with ceramic heads? Clean it with 91% ISOPROPANAL (alcohol). inspect first during and after. Most heads are ceramic and oxidized is not likely. Allison From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 10 19:10:33 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... Message-ID: <001a01bee38d$ef4939c0$0101a8c0@jay> Sorry Allison, I meant to say the head was heavily coated with oxide from the disk platter, not oxidized itself! :) I just removed the two lower heads, and neither comes clean with 91% alcohol. Now I'm just soaking the heads in a glass in the alcohol, and waiting overnight to see if they'll then come clean. If that fails, I was wondering about a toothbrush with just 91% alcohol. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 18:11:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Are tatty boxes worth keeping? In-Reply-To: <6a822dee.24e1fa6d@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Aug 10, 99 05:58:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/3f9cf242/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 18:15:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... In-Reply-To: <003601bee382$42f5a100$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 10, 99 04:47:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/1e97a2e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 19:22:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... In-Reply-To: <199908102356.AA11998@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 10, 99 07:56:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 814 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/ce83086c/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Aug 10 15:46:24 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... In-Reply-To: References: <199908102356.AA11998@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 10, 99 07:56:05 pm Message-ID: <199908110041.UAA18078@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:22:16 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: 14" hard drive refurb.... > > > > <> One person told me that if the heads were heavily oxidized, that they cou > > <> be cleaned with a soft toothbrush and TOOTHPASTE (followed by a rinsing i > > <> 91% alcohol)??????? > > > > Don't. has that person ever dealt with ceramic heads? > > I'll go along with that. > > > > > Clean it with 91% ISOPROPANAL (alcohol). inspect first during and after. > > One minor correction (probably a typo). The stuff you want is > isopropanol. Propanal does exit, it's an aldehyde, something like > C2H5COH. I can't see how an iso-version of that can exist, though - the > nearest you'd get is CH3-CO-CH3, propanone (the new name for acetone). > But keep that away from disk heads... > > > Most heads are ceramic and oxidized is not likely. > > I suspect 'oxidized' == 'covered with iron oxide from the disk platter' > here. > > -tony If that is so hard to clean, then this solution: Find a sharp edged hard plastic and dip that in that cleaner and try to "chip" off the crusted up of oxide/melted binder? Be careful not to bend or move too much on that flex suspension. One time I had a FD with a head that looked like "pit" turned out very hard to remove dirt and needed chipping off with a fingernail followed with cleaner. Wizard From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 10 19:32:48 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb results? Message-ID: <002701bee391$0aeb2be0$0101a8c0@jay> Well, I got enough of the oxide off to see there is definitely a few scores in the ceramic pad. Since I'm a total neophyte at this, I decided to get some professional help (related to the disc heads ). I located an outfit with the following prices: 1) New heads - $135.00 each 2) Replace the pads, check the spring, and test fly - $35.00 each 3) Clean and recontour the head - $20.00 each. Just to be safe, I'm probably going to go with option two, and at least I'll be sure the heads I'm putting in aren't going to destroy the platter. Does anyone know of an outfit that gives better pricing here in the states? Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 10 20:46:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... Message-ID: <199908110146.AA03050@world.std.com> from Tony Duell at "Aug 11, 1999 0:15:48 am" Message-ID: <199908110227.WAA09537@pechter.dyndns.org> > I think it's possible to reface a head with diamond paste, but it will > take practice. A lot of practice (and a lot of wrecked heads). Some of > the older hard disk manuals (RK05-vintage) mention that touching the face > of the head is a bad idea because acids from your skin can etch the > ceramic head. Now, ceramics do _not_ disolve at all quickly even in > strong acids, so it must mean that even very minor damage is enough to > cause problems. > > -tony Tony, I watched a support guy clean an RK05 head off with a pocket knife. True story. It had been dinged with an RK05 that had a 1/4 inch bend in the platter due to it being shipped by an IDIOT at DEC security who took it away from me at DEC training in Bedford... They had to security check I wasn't stealing proprietary software. (Someone a week or so earlier had lifted some VAX/VMS pre-release stuff so they cracked down and took my RK05 RT11 games pack I used to take to DEC training to run for fun at night.) Anyway, I crashed the damned RK05 at DEC Finance Princeton when I tried to boot my games and run Adventure on a PM and system move. There were no spare heads in Princeton. My branch support guy used alcohol, a punch card and a pocket knife and the RK ran perfectly after it. (We had nothing to lose and the RK05 was NOT needed for the machine's operation for finance. It was left over from the earlier use of the machine when RSTS would run on RK's...) RK's fly so high they actually ran a year in a machine where the tech left the filter caps on. As far as flying height, RK05's are the SR71 or U2 of the disk heads. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 10 23:01:54 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: EMC buys Data General In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990809112013.0412c550@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > I'm looking for other examples, but I believe this leaves IBM (System 360) > and Sun (SPARC) as the last two companies who designed their own computer > architecture still standing under their own name. (I don't count Xerox > since they don't sell their D-series machines any more). Amongst the old guard (and in this case, probably the oldest), NEC still stands with their SX monsters. Fujitsu and Hitachi almost count, but they are not really that old. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Aug 10 23:12:17 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: RT-11 & The 11/03 Message-ID: <19990810.231218.282.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: If there is anyone out there who is running RT-11 on an 11/03, could you please reply to me via private e-mail? Thanks! Jeff We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme . . . . ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Aug 10 23:37:39 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Floppy drive info needed Message-ID: <668f51d7.24e25813@aol.com> Hello all: Does anyone have jumper information on these two old drives? Both are 5.25" drives pulled from old PCs. The jumpers are not marked (except for jp1, jp2, etc.). I need to configure them for use with a TS2068 fdd i/f. The drives are: Epson SD-621L Teac FD55-GFR If you can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 10 23:43:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: DSSI in a BA123? Message-ID: <4.1.19990810213656.00a856d0@mcmanis.com> Ok, this is the challenge. NetBSD runs flawlessly on my KFQSA in the 3900 but hangs using the SIGMA RQ11D in my uVax 3. Since I have an "extra" KFQSA (now knowing how to configure it!) I could put it into my BA123 but that appears to be a challenge when no documentation is present :-) Some questions: 1) The Controler <-> drive cable, can I crimp a three appropriately sexed IDC connectors on to flat ribbon cables for hookup? 2) How to hook up the drive control panel? The 3900 has a connector that is wired to the bulkhead and the drive, it also holds a "unit number" plug. The BA123 has its normal DRIVE 0 WP/Ready control with a different sized connector. Can I adapt it to the RF7x series drive? How? 3) DSSI terminators connect to the scsi like DSSI connector, if I put a SCSI 2 connector on my cable can I use an active SCSI 2 terminator instead? As always, thanks! --Chuck From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Aug 10 23:55:35 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Floppy drive info needed In-Reply-To: <668f51d7.24e25813@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at "Aug 11, 1999 00:37:39 am" Message-ID: <199908110455.EAA26539@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Hello all: > > Does anyone have jumper information on these two old drives? Both are 5.25" > drives pulled from old PCs. The jumpers are not marked (except for jp1, jp2, > etc.). I need to configure them for use with a TS2068 fdd i/f. > > The drives are: > > Epson SD-621L > Teac FD55-GFR > > If you can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. > > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 > Teac's web site has full jumper information for their floppy drives. -Lawrence LeMay From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Aug 10 23:55:58 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... In-Reply-To: <001a01bee38d$ef4939c0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: JAY!!! I **hope** you read this before tomorrow! Please remove the heads from the alcohol right now... it is unpredictable what long-term immersion in 91% isopropanol will do to a head assembly.. but I doubt anything good. It is possible to soften and dissolve the coil binders, and possibly to delaminate the magnetic core... and at the least to impregnate the coils with alcohol, which will then be released as a vapor or liquid contaminant over time... maybe carrying goo from the stack..... I hope that nothing evil comes of this... but overnight soaking in **anything** is >not< the way to clean up magnetic heads. Hoping for the best.. John From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 00:36:52 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Floppy drive info needed In-Reply-To: <668f51d7.24e25813@aol.com> Message-ID: >Hello all: > >Does anyone have jumper information on these two old drives? Both are 5.25" >drives pulled from old PCs. The jumpers are not marked (except for jp1, jp2, >etc.). I need to configure them for use with a TS2068 fdd i/f. > >The drives are: > >Epson SD-621L >Teac FD55-GFR > >If you can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 Well, the companies web pages are always a good place to start :^) Teac is easy. http://www.teac.com/dsp/ts_dspf.html Epson is a lot harder, but I think you can find it here if you're lucky, but will take some looking. If the drive came out of a Epson computer it looks like you'll have the best results. http://www.epson.com/support/instans/prselans.html Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbg at world.std.com Wed Aug 11 00:45:34 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: DSSI in a BA123? Message-ID: <199908110545.AA12326@world.std.com> > 1) The Controler <-> drive cable, can I crimp a three >appropriately sexed IDC connectors on to flat ribbon cables for hookup? You should be able to... > 2) How to hook up the drive control panel? The 3900 has a >connector that is wired to the bulkhead and the drive, it also holds a >"unit number" plug. The BA123 has its normal DRIVE 0 WP/Ready control >with a different sized connector. Can I adapt it to the RF7x series >drive? How? I'm sure it could be done electrically... but I'm running several DSSI drives on a KFQSA (in a VS3600) with no unit select anything. > 3) DSSI terminators connect to the scsi like DSSI connector, if I >put a SCSI 2 connector on my cable can I use an active SCSI 2 terminator >instead? Do NOT, I repeat, *DO NOT* use a SCSI terminator on a DSSI cable. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 11 07:53:20 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Weird ISA 80186 card In-Reply-To: References: <199908101238.OAA15962@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908111054.MAA05145@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Ahh, now the bell rings - ACP186, today named ICA186, an 8 port > >card for terminal and/or LAN/WAN connections. There are lots of > >different software configurations available to setup multi- > >protocoll PADs and Routers with this beast using DOS or Unix. > >These cards can be used to provide TCP/IP routing over frame > >relay and/or X25, transparent LAN acces over SNA/SDLC for > >3270/3780 BSC, Burroughs, Univac or Honeywell protocolls > >and last but not least of course Async. Or connect these > >protocolls direct to X25. > >maybe check the franklin pages for more info > >http://www.ftel.com/ > >Hint: look for MPP (Multi Protocoll PADs) > >The boards are more or less junk without the soft. > >Unless you want to have some small sub CPUs in your AT :) > Thanks, I knew someone on this list would know. ;) > If I can I think I will add them to my next pile and see if they attract > some software. Maybe even a cable. ;) Well, pile as many as you can - and buy the rechref manual from FTEL (If still available) and build a 186 based multi processor system ... 5 or 6 in an AT system ... or even more if you can aquire an expansion box :) > Any chance these cards might work with a larger modem sized box called a > CompuTone with what looks like 16 RJ(not sure if 11 or 45) ports on it and > a single DB something 3 row connector? No idea - check the manuals at FTEL. Gruss H. P.S.: 12h50 - Just back from SoFi - a great show :9 -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 11 08:33:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question)) In-Reply-To: References: <199908101238.OAA15959@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 10, 99 02:38:40 pm Message-ID: <199908111134.NAA07416@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > Well, it depends on what you want to learn. There are some things (OOP, > > > for example) that would be difficult to teach on a Beeb or Apple ][. > > > There are some things (hardware operaion) that are very difficult to > > > teach with a modern PC. > > My keyword - A 'simple' machine like an A2 or an IBM/XT is exaxtly > > the very best environment to teach OOP. After all, OOP is NOT about > OK, it was a bad example. There must be something that's better taught on > a modern PC. Although off the top of my head I can't think what it is > ;-). You can certainly learn all the fundamentals using old machines. Well, maybe WinXX management - but what the heck would anybody like to learn about ? > > Acron System 1 ? Another beast from the island I'm not aware of ? > Many (clueless) people seem to think that Acorn's first machine was the > BBC micro. Slightly less clueless ones think it was the Atom (another > 6502-based home computer). But before both of those machines, they made a > series of machines based on Eurocard modules in 19" cardframes called the > 'Systems'. It is not exactly clear to me what all the later Systems were, > but I can give some ideas. Well, I did know that they build other, but I had no clear info - thanks a lot. > The System 1 was 2 Eurocards. One of them contained a 6502, 8154 RAM/IO > (with an optional second one), 1K of RAM, and a monitor ROM. The other > contained a hex keypad, 7 segment display, and a cassette interface. > Together they formed a minimal 6502 development system. WANT! > The System 2 was in a rack. It used the same boards as the System 1, > although the keyboard/display were left off (the second board was just > the cassette interface). There was another card which contained a 40 > column text-only VDU and one with more ROM/RAM on it. There was also a > full QWERTY keyboard which (IIRC) plugged into one of the 8154 ports on > the CPU board. 8154 ? Shure ? Rather unusual to have Intel peripherals within a 65xx system. > These machines are not that common, even in the UK, so they're worth > saving if you ever see any. A few weeks back I spotted a totally bare > Eurocard in a local electronics shop. I believe it to be a sound card for > an Acorn System (although there are no markings on it at all...). One of > the puzzles for the next few months is to work out what all the > components should be (there is no silkscreen at all) and assemble it. Sounds(:) like a fun project. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 11 06:39:36 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific 1p In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:33:07 -0600 mark acierno wrote: > Just obtained a 1p and have two questions ... > 2)Does anyone have any software for it? I had a whole bunch (but that was > 1981)!I can still remember a company called AARDVARK SOFTWARE sold a bunch > of great games........ > mark > ------- > ICQ 40439199 > http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 Well, it's not an Ohio Scientific machine, but I have some software for the UK copy, the Compukit UK101. It's in BASIC and available from my WWW page at: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101.htm Look in the "UK101 Museum" to find the software. If anybody wants more, I can probably load up a few tapes and send them over a serial link... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dogas at leading.net Wed Aug 11 06:59:27 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific 1p Message-ID: <01bee3f0$f66ac080$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:33:07 -0600 mark acierno > wrote: >> questions >... >> 2)Does anyone have any software for it? I had a whole bunch (but that was >> 1981)!I can still remember a company called AARDVARK SOFTWARE sold a bunch >> of great games........ I've got Sargon II (Hayden Software I think) on cassette for the 1p floating around here somewhere. Bill, is this one that you have and have slated for wav conversion and posting? ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 11 07:01:34 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:15:37 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > The System 1 was 2 Eurocards. One of them contained a 6502, 8154 RAM/IO > (with an optional second one), 1K of RAM, and a monitor ROM. The other > contained a hex keypad, 7 segment display, and a cassette interface. > Together they formed a minimal 6502 development system. This was the first computer I ever built (from a kit). It was back at school, in about 1978, when I was electronics lab technician. As you say, two Eurocards, one for CPU/ROM/RAM and the other for the keyboard, display and (I think) the cassette interface. The LED display was the multiplexed type, as used in calculators of the time. > The System 2 was in a rack. It used the same boards as the System 1, > although the keyboard/display were left off (the second board was just > the cassette interface). There was another card which contained a 40 > column text-only VDU and one with more ROM/RAM on it. There was also a > full QWERTY keyboard which (IIRC) plugged into one of the 8154 ports on > the CPU board. I have a rack-mounted Acorn System Three, which has the disk, full keyboard, VDU and a power supply. I've also got spares (like EPROMs) and a little documentation. ... > These machines are not that common, even in the UK, so they're worth > saving if you ever see any. A few weeks back I spotted a totally bare > Eurocard in a local electronics shop. I believe it to be a sound card for > an Acorn System (although there are no markings on it at all...). One of > the puzzles for the next few months is to work out what all the > components should be (there is no silkscreen at all) and assemble it. Are there any part numbers or markings? I can compare it with my system, which certainly has an optocoupled parallel I/O card, and may have a sound card. > -tony -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Aug 11 09:11:39 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: imsb407 ethernet tram Message-ID: <37B1849A.AFE9BB3@olf.com> Hi, The IMSB407 Ethernet TRAM (Size 8, T222 + 64K SRAM + 7990 LANCE + thinwire transceiver), according to inmos bulletin 324 at http://www.hensa.ac.uk/parallel/vendors/inmos/archive-server/bulletin/b324.txt requires the s507a support package. I have the s507b support package and apparently it is for the IMSB300. Does anyone have the support package for the IMSB407?? Or can I use the s507b?? Thanks Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Aug 11 09:14:19 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb.... Message-ID: <004601bee403$cd722fc0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> No, I only soaked them for about an hour. They quickly reached a point where no more oxide will come off with a foam-type "q-tip". Still, there is so much oxide left that won't come off... I'm sending the heads in for work today. Thanks for the tip! Jay West -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11:58 PM Subject: Re: 14" hard drive refurb.... > > > JAY!!! I **hope** you read this before tomorrow! Please remove >the heads from the alcohol right now... it is unpredictable what >long-term immersion in 91% isopropanol will do to a head assembly.. >but I doubt anything good. > > It is possible to soften and dissolve the coil binders, and >possibly to delaminate the magnetic core... and at the least to >impregnate the coils with alcohol, which will then be released as a >vapor or liquid contaminant over time... maybe carrying goo from the >stack..... > > I hope that nothing evil comes of this... but overnight soaking >in **anything** is >not< the way to clean up magnetic heads. > > > Hoping for the best.. > > >John > > > From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Aug 11 10:06:00 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU: Handler Question References: Message-ID: <37B19158.CF603FF3@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>days. However, I won't be using the nice WQESD ESDI controller that I've > >>got that makes partitioning disks easy. So I want to make sure I > >>understand how partitioning works under RT-11. > >Doesn't it do the partitioning in hardware anyway? Of course that is > >easy... they become separate units... > Yes, the WQESD does the partitioning in the Hardware. Kinda handy as it > allows multiple bootable RT-11 partitions, OR multiple bootable OS's. Jerome Fine replies: You forgot to say how big your ESDI drive is and which version of RT-11 you are using. If your ESDI drive is 256 MBytes or less (even up to 300 MBytes is not unreasonable) and you are using either the WQESD or at least V5.3 of RT-11, then as you note, sufficient partitions are available (maximum of 8 partitions up to V5.4G or RT-11). Note that with the standard RT-11 distribution up to V5.4G, ONLY partition ZERO is bootable since the boot code in the device driver of an RT-11 MSCP device is missing one instruction (naturally the one which takes care of the partition number - this can easily be modified in V5.4G - I have seen it in actual operation). And in general (you would need 2 active devices otherwise) the hardware boot code can do a HARDWARE BOOT of an RT-11 partition (ALWAYS partition ZERO) ONLY (there was a discussion a while back in which it was shown that with 2 active devices this can be somewhat modified) if the logical and physical UNIT numbers match. If you are using V5.5 or later, then extended device driver support is available and 64 partitions are available. In addition, starting at least with V5.6 of RT-11, NON-ZERO partitions are software bootable. Which means that you can support an 8 GBytes disk drive and simultaneously use up to 64 partitions (out of 256 on that 8 GByte drive) at one time using the partitions D00: to D77: (64 total since numbers are actually - sort of - in octal). NOTE that the standard DEC distribution allows only the first 8 partitions in the table to be bootable although it is quite possible (I have seen one version that allows ALL 64 partitions to be software bootable - actually watched D64: being booted) to re-write the boot code and have all 64 partitions bootable. Since I have probably given you too much to chew on, please respond with any questions. > >That should be > > .SQUEEZE/OUTPUT:DU0: DL1: > > .COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0: > Whoops, manual even says that on the copy I see. I guess I literally need > my eyes checked as I read the COPY/BOOT wrong. We all do that on occasion - in my case, more often than not. > >Squeeze is a faster way of doing the copy when the output volume is > >a freshly initialized volume. You could do it with a COPY/SYS... > Ah, OK I understand, the COPY/SYS is how I've done it previously. The only real difference is that with COPY/SYS you don't get a "SQUEEZEd" directory the first time through. If you have more than about 1500 files, that could be a problem. You would have to do a multiple pass since the directory would become "full". Otherwise, you can do the SQUEEZE afterwards and only the directory would be modified if there were no empty spaces. > >There are a number of factors involved... you need to ensure that the > >partitioning in the DU driver you are using to write to the DU device > >is the same as the DU driver which gets written *to* that device. If > >not, you could write the data just fine, but not be able to find it > >easily. > Now is this the same specific copy of DU.SYS? In other words should I be > booting off RL, setting the partitions, then init'ing the drives, then > copying? Or is this simply saying that DU.SYS vs. DUX.SYS will have > problems? Just to be sure, I always recommend that the DU(X).SYS file being written to the device which will be booted is the device driver which is being used to perform the COPY operation. Sometimes that is not possible, but try to do so whenever you can. However, if you are using a version of RT-11 on the target bootable partition which is not compatible with the version of RT-11 that is doing the copy, that will not be possible. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Aug 11 10:32:21 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Printronix available in UK In-Reply-To: <01bee3f0$f66ac080$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: Having a bit of a clear-out... Anybody want a Printronix P300 dot-matrix line printer? It prints at 300 lines per minute, 132-character lines. Makes *lots* of noise, in spite of built-in soundproof hood. Serial interface, 240V power. Originally installed at Westfield College, London in about 1980. Free to anyone who'd like to collect it from North Bristol, UK. BTW, it's *very* heavy! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From bill at chipware.com Wed Aug 11 10:57:28 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Floppy drive info needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401bee412$36607d30$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Teac is easy. http://www.teac.com/dsp/ts_dspf.html Note that that is only for currently shipping products. I still need info for a FD-53B... From bill at chipware.com Wed Aug 11 11:04:15 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific 1p In-Reply-To: <01bee3f0$f66ac080$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <001501bee413$28a92d80$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > I've got Sargon II (Hayden Software I think) on cassette for the > 1p floating around here somewhere. Bill, is this one that you > have and have slated for wav conversion and posting? Nope, don't have that one. When the time gets closer, I'll put out a call for contributions. Bill Sudbrink From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 11 12:14:01 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: VAX support until 2010? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990811121401.01124370@vpwisfirewall> I, like other DECUS members, just got a letter from Compaq assuring me that VAX (and OpenVMS) support will continue for another ten years - although the VAX family will be retired. Now wouldn't that letter have been much more exciting if they'd decided to open-source all the other retired DEC products? - John From svs at ropnet.ru Wed Aug 11 14:17:26 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: VAXstation 8000 Message-ID: <19990811231726.27891@firepower> G'day, I fired up a VAXstation 8000 that was sitting in a corner collecting dust. After some fiddling, I managed to get it to work -- at least partly. It would not even show the chevron prompt until I pulled the KK810 cable (KK810 is "Control Assembly") out of GIF (Goes In First) BI bus terminator. Even then, no luck: (DU50 is a RD54 that is hung off KFBTA) Hand transcribed logs: Plain boot: >>> B DU50 01000000 %BOOT-F-Failed to allocate PFN bitmap Boot with memory test disabled: >>> B/R5:84 DU50 01000000 %BOOT-F-Unexpected exception PC=000003E1 >>> B/R5:2004 DU50 01000000 %BOOT-W-Ten percent or more of main memory is bad %BOOT-F-Insufficient memory for CI Boot with boot breakpoint set: >>> B/R5:20 DU50 1 BRK AT 00003E8C 00003E8C/7E5BD001 Something is obviously wrong, but without docs I am going nowhere... Comments? Advice? -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From svs at ropnet.ru Wed Aug 11 14:20:35 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Manuals wanted Message-ID: <19990811232035.27947@firepower> G'day, I am looking for the following manuals (in dead-tree, microfilm or -fiche, photo- or xerocopied, or scanned form). For better support of VAX 8200 series in NetBSD/vax: *** Digital Equipment Corporation Paul Wade "The VAXBI Bus -- A Randomly Configurable Design", Digital Technical Journal, February 1987, pp.81--87 EB-27271-46 VAXBI Options Handbook EB-28190-46 VAXBI Technical Summary EK-DEBNT-TM DEBNT Ethernet Tape Controller Technical Manual EK-DEBNX-TM DEBNA/DEBNT Technical Manual ??-?????-?? BVP Architecture Manual EK-DMB32-TD DMB32 Technical Description EK-DWBUA-TM DWBUA UNIBUS ADAPTER TECH. EK-KA820-TM KA820 Processor Technical Manual EK-MS820-TM MOS Memory Technical Manual EK-KDB50-SV KDB50 Disk Controller Service Manual EK-ORA60-SV RA60 Disk Drive Service Manual EK-ORA81-SV RA81 Disk Drive Service Manual EK-ORA82-SV RA82 Disk Drive Service Manual AQ-FJ86L-ME VAXstation 8000 hardware files EK-VS800-IG VAXstation 8000 Installation Guide EK-VS800-OM VAXstation 8000 Owners Manual EK-VS800-SG VAXstation 8000 Service Guide EK-VS800-SM VAXstation 8000 System Manual EK-VS8PL-TM 8-PLANE GRAPHICS COPROC (If I guessed right, this describes VSB70 -- Evans & Sutherland graphics hardware in VS8000) EK-KA800-TM KA800/MS800 Technical Manual EK-KFBTA-TM KFBTA Disk Controller Technical Manual Most part numbers were found in Digital Assisted Services catalog; if you think something that's not in the above list might be useful too, let me know. For (nonexistant yet, and possibly going nowhere) NetBSD/tek4300 port: *** Tektronix Inc. Everything about these VME boards: CE ( = 4301 Application processor), PP2 (Picture Processor 2), ZB (Z-buffer), FB8M (8-plane frame buffer), CP. This board set forms a Tektronix 4336 workstation. I'm also looking for spare parts, option boards (esp. memory expansion for 4301!), and other machines of the 4300 series. *** Weitek Everything about Weitek 1167 Floating Point Accelerator. It is an optional item for Tektronix 4301. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From svs at ropnet.ru Wed Aug 11 14:23:01 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Weitek Array Processor Message-ID: <19990811232301.28126@firepower> G'day, In the past, I've asked for information on the Weitek [Graphic] Array Processor. Well, I've located some documentation for it and accompanying software: WAFT, Weitek Assembler with Flexible Translation, APSIM, Array Processor SIMulator, and QUAKE :-). The board has one integer processor (an equivalent of 4 Am2901's + Am2910) and one floating point processor (2 WTL1066 register files, 1 WTL1032 ALU and 1 WTL1033 multiplier). Manual claims that performance of this hardware reaches 8 MFLOPS. Clock frequency is 4 MHz. I've not found any reference to this product (by name) on the Net. From comments in source code, it looks like Thomas J. Riordan, Craig Hansen, and Michael Ekberg were involved in the design of this product. Does anyone remember this product? I'll have to verify that hardware is working, but there is a good chance that it is OK. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Aug 11 16:44:10 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Fwd: FS vintage computer Message-ID: <4.1.19990811174245.00a89870@206.231.8.2> Please contact DonaldF F Christensen if interested. Do not reply to me. Good luck. >X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:18:22 -0400 >Reply-To: DonaldF F Christensen >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List >From: DonaldF F Christensen >Subject: FS vintage computer >To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > >Vintage computer collectors: I have the following Heath/Zenith components >for sale >or trade: One Heath/Zenith H-89 All-in-one Computer/monitor/keyboard; >one Heath/ >Zenith H-25 Dot Matrix printer-big one; One Heath/Zenith H-37 Dual Floppy >Disk Drive; >One lot of instruction books, data, etc, etc. The computer components are >in very good condition. If anyone is interested, please let me know. I >will not ship-for pickup only >in central Michigan. Thanks. 73 Don W8WOJ > >Sponsored by the City of Tempe > >Listserver Submissions: heath@listserv.tempe.gov >Listserver Subscription: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov - "subscribe heath >'name' 'call'" >Listserver Unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov - -"signoff heath" Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dogas at leading.net Wed Aug 11 17:05:12 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Fw: FS vintage computer Message-ID: <01bee445$95cd7920$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Heads up central Michiganites.... respond directly to Donald.. ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: DonaldF F Christensen To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 4:50 PM Subject: FS vintage computer >Vintage computer collectors: I have the following Heath/Zenith components >for sale >or trade: One Heath/Zenith H-89 All-in-one Computer/monitor/keyboard; >one Heath/ >Zenith H-25 Dot Matrix printer-big one; One Heath/Zenith H-37 Dual Floppy >Disk Drive; >One lot of instruction books, data, etc, etc. The computer components are >in very good condition. If anyone is interested, please let me know. I >will not ship-for pickup only >in central Michigan. Thanks. 73 Don W8WOJ > >Sponsored by the City of Tempe > >Listserver Submissions: heath@listserv.tempe.gov >Listserver Subscription: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov - "subscribe heath 'name' 'call'" >Listserver Unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov - -"signoff heath" > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 15:14:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Floppy drive info needed In-Reply-To: <668f51d7.24e25813@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Aug 11, 99 00:37:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/0726787e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 14:49:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 14" hard drive refurb results? In-Reply-To: <002701bee391$0aeb2be0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 10, 99 07:32:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1131 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/4583f749/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 14:56:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Disk flying height In-Reply-To: <199908110227.WAA09537@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Aug 10, 99 10:27:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/091728a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 15:21:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question)) In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Aug 11, 99 01:01:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/4f181eba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 16:01:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question)) In-Reply-To: <199908111134.NAA07416@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 11, 99 01:34:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1920 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990811/4b94ef16/attachment.ksh From ware at interaccess.com Wed Aug 11 18:23:51 1999 From: ware at interaccess.com (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Available Documentation, Parts, and Computers - part 1 Message-ID: Moving day is quickly approaching, and I need to trim my collection down quite a bit. I'll be going through the majority of the hardware this weekend and posting a more complete list of available items then. Until then, I have the following items (some of which I'm sure I'll eventually kick myself for getting rid of) available. To keep things simple, I've included enough to cover shipping costs in the continental US in these prices. Feel free to make other offers if these prices seem out of line - I'm really only looking to recoup some of the cost of packing and shipping things out during a period when free time is at a premium. AT&T UNIX PC / 3B1 software and documentation - Complete copy of SYSV UNIX version 3.51 for the 3B1/UNIXPC. Includes all manuals. Shrinkwrapped. $15. Apple III "BPI General Accounting" and "BPI Accounts Receivable". Boxed, with docs. Requires ProFile. $20 for both. IBM OS/2 2.1 "For Windows". Shrinkwrapped. Several copies - $10/each. Control Data 9427H Disk Drive service manual - $5 IBM XENIX documentation - Assembler reference, text formatting guide, software command reference, library function and C reference - $15 for all. AT&T PC6300 User's Guide - $5 Coleco ADAM Logo manual - $5 Radofin Aquarius - includes PSU, missing cartridge port cover - $10 TRS-80 CoCo2 - OK physical condition, untested - $10 Coleco Adam - System unit, printer, keyboard. System worked when last used, printer non-functional, printer PSU good - $40 Magnavox RGB display 80 - Analog RGB (Amiga), digital RGB(CGA), and NTSC composite inputs. No cover for controls - $40 Mono composite monitors - Apple, others - $15 Nortel ISDN terminal adaptors - 64k sync / 57.6k async operation on one B channel. Requires external NT1. 2 units, one psu, one manual - $20 Apple Disk II drives - untested - 2 for $15 3 Magnavox Odyssey pong systems - red, yellow, and white (200,300,400?). One AC adaptor, one RF connector. $40 for all Magnavox Odyssey2 - Boxed, with joysticks. I think I have the wall wart and an "Intro to Programming" cartridge for this one. $20 Odyssey2 - 2 Untested Odyssey2 games in one box. no PSU - $20 Laser 128 - Dirty, missing keys, untested. $7 -- Scott Ware ware@interaccess.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 11 18:47:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Available Documentation, Parts, and Computers - part 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Scott, I'll take these: > Coleco ADAM Logo manual - $5 > > Radofin Aquarius - includes PSU, missing cartridge port cover - $10 > 3 Magnavox Odyssey pong systems - red, yellow, and white (200,300,400?). > One AC adaptor, one RF connector. $40 for all Will you take $25 for the Odysseys? I know the whole point of this exercise is to reduce crap to move but since you are coming my way (and these are relatively small) is there a chance you could bring them along? If not then that's cool. I totally understand, and won't mind paying to have them shipped. Thanks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From ytheart2 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 21:07:16 1999 From: ytheart2 at yahoo.com (Kelly Barrow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms Message-ID: <19990812020716.275.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> hi, saw your post. do you have or have any idea where i can find 16 meg 30 pin simms? i need 2 of them. any help is appreciated. thanks. kelly _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 21:09:45 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms References: <19990812020716.275.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <9908112211030P.09725@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Kelly Barrow wrote: >hi, saw your post. do you have or have any idea where >i can find 16 meg 30 pin simms? i need 2 of them. any >help is appreciated. thanks. Try contacting Scott Bethke's outfit at http://www.gstek.com. They're probably not on their web pages, but they usually have some. -Dave McGuire From danburrows at mindspring.com Wed Aug 11 21:21:25 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: Disk flying height Message-ID: <001c01bee469$755fe370$0f0a0a0a@l166> With all these discussions about disk heads is there anyone that is interested in some RK05 heads? I am bidding on a bunch of DEC equipment tomorrow by noon EST and there are the following that may be in interest to those that are restoring RK05's etc. -G938 - G 5 RK05J HEAD POSITION SERVO,DOUBLE X 8.5 -H743 -AA G 1 PWR SUPPLY, H737 REPACKAGE FOR RK05 PLUS BATTERY,1 30-10863-01 G 10 HEAD,DISC RECORDING,RK05,''B''UP 30-10863-02 G 6 HEAD,DISC RECORDING,RK05,''B''DOWN 30-17108-00 G 2 DISK,PACK RM05CE ALIGNMENT 9883-51 CONTROL DATA SYSTEMS IN These are all by line item and quantity shown. If you are interested let me know off list by 11:30 tomorrow (8/12) as I have to have the bid in by noon. I will just add it to my current bid. (the entire list is 76 pages) Dan -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 6:47 PM Subject: Re: Disk flying height > I watched a support guy clean an RK05 head off with a pocket knife. > True story. Wow!. I am impressed (very). Although I often thought some of the stuff in the RK05 service manual was a little OTT. Those drives _are_ pretty robust. (The HP drive that we're discussing here uses similar technology to the RK05 and will have much the same flying height, etc. So I sould guess that drive will be similarly robust). > RK's fly so high they actually ran a year in a machine where the tech > left the filter caps on. I assume you mean the dust caps over the ends of the absolute filter and not the filter capacitors in the PSU. You mean that drive had no airflow at all? Again, Wow! > > As far as flying height, RK05's are the SR71 or U2 of the disk heads. :-). RK05s (and similar drives) are good to learn on, because it's difficult to get a fatal headcrash. I've seen it happen once, or rather I got to change the heads after it had happened. That head had visible scoring across the pad. I suppose it might have cleaned up, but I had new heads in stock anyway... But most of the time if you stick in a damaged platter or have other problems, you get the 'ting, ting, ting' noise long before the head is ruined. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 23:17:58 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: RT-11 and partitions, Part 2 Message-ID: Finally the weather was agreeable, and I was able to have the PDP-11/44 running out in the garage without getting it to hot out there tonite. So I got my Hardware problems solved, and as a result I've gotten RT-11 installed on the Hard Drive I wanted to. Which brings up the question, is there any harm in not using all the space on a Hard Drive when you have it partitioned with RT-11? I don't care that I can't use the space. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbg at world.std.com Wed Aug 11 23:35:11 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:45 2005 Subject: RT-11 and partitions, Part 2 Message-ID: <199908120435.AA26800@world.std.com> >I got my Hardware problems solved, and as a result I've gotten RT-11 >installed on the Hard Drive I wanted to. Which brings up the question, >is there any harm in not using all the space on a Hard Drive when you >have it partitioned with RT-11? I don't care that I can't use the space. Normally there is absolutely no problem in not using all of the disk. RT and the DU handlers will only care about what you tell them about (via PORT,UNIT,PART). The only thing you might have to worry about is a program which uses the SPFUN which allows total access to the disk (which is not something which you will find in any of the standard RT utilities). If you only run distributed software or your own code, there will be no problem (modulo any bugs that might be lurking). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Aug 12 03:56:54 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: MCA 3363 controller card Message-ID: <01bee4a0$a0b6fe00$678ea6d1@the-general> Does anyone have a spare IBM 3363 optical controller card for a MCA bus? I recently sent one to someone, and it got damaged in transit, so I'm trying to find one to replace it. ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 PS>> was there ever a such thing as a double sided 3363 optical disk? From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 12 01:17:52 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: <9908112211030P.09725@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <19990812020716.275.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: >On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Kelly Barrow wrote: >>hi, saw your post. do you have or have any idea where >>i can find 16 meg 30 pin simms? i need 2 of them. any >>help is appreciated. thanks. > > Try contacting Scott Bethke's outfit at http://www.gstek.com. They're >probably not on their web pages, but they usually have some. > > -Dave McGuire It isn't that they are hard to find, they are just expensive ala $25 each. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 12 01:31:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Nerds have truly arrived Message-ID: Here's a short tidbit I found in today's paper: Talk about good rebounders--Mick Jagger's ex, Jery Hall, appears to have taken up with one of the world's richest men, Paul Allen, who with Bill Gates founded Microsoft. Britain's Daily Telegraph says the model, 43, is vacationing on one of Allen's yachts in the south of France. Allen, 45, is way richer than the Rollling Stone--$22 billin to a few hundred million--plus, like Jagger, has a liking for rock, playing guitar in his own band, the Threads. Geek *IS* chic! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 12 02:42:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Miller Beer and Nerds? Message-ID: Did anyone else see the Miller Beer commercial with Norm MacDonald (of Saturday Night Live fame) and Marc Andreesen (of Netscape fame)? More proof that "Nerds have Arrived". :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Aug 12 07:18:32 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Miller Beer and Nerds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990812080928.00a77340@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:42 AM 8/12/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: > >Did anyone else see the Miller Beer commercial with Norm MacDonald (of >Saturday Night Live fame) and Marc Andreesen (of Netscape fame)? More >proof that "Nerds have Arrived". :) Yeah, wasn't that a hoot! Saw it during an Atlanta Braves game Sunday. At least Andreesen was a bit less wooden-like than other celebs that Miller Beer has tried to play into their adverts. My wife's jaw dropped when she saw him on there as we're used to seeing Nascar/baseball/football/etc wooden heads. As to your previous report of Jerry Hall/Paul Allen connection, I was laying in bed this AM listening to the 06:00 radio news. The newslady reported that news brief and I almost fell outta bed. Good for Paul! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 12 07:30:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WWW.JDR.COM 4mbx9 about 12-15$ each they are a good source that I've used before. Allison From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Aug 12 09:09:23 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990812090923.009afc20@207.207.0.212> >WWW.JDR.COM 4mbx9 about 12-15$ each they are a good source that I've >used before. JDR is good... http://www.jameco.com also has them. A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From max82 at surfree.com Thu Aug 12 09:07:24 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Inventory liquidation Message-ID: Hi, I e-mailed three people regarding their checks for what I'm supposed to ship them, but haven't gotten any replies or checks. I wasn't subscribed to the list at the time, perhaps you replied to the list? At any rate, e-mail me personally about this. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From wanderer at bos.nl Thu Aug 12 13:47:21 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 9 track with SCSI? References: <3.0.3.32.19990812090923.009afc20@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <37B316B9.53BD@bos.nl> Hi All, Does anybody know if there exists a 9 track tape drive (vertically mounted) which has a SCSI interface? I know there are front loader 9 track types with a SCSI interface, but these are not the ones I'm after. Thanks, Ed From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 12 11:57:20 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Special IBM MCA system (Mopar) Help In-Reply-To: <37B316B9.53BD@bos.nl> References: <3.0.3.32.19990812090923.009afc20@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990812125720.009cc1c0@mail.30below.com> This is slightly off-topic (as the system itself is from ~1991), but most of the hardware I'm dealing with dates to 1989 or so... I'm working with an IBM-built MCA-architecture machine called the MDS - Mopar Diagnostics System. You'll probably find one at your local Daimler-Chrysler fixemupper dealership. Anyway, the box at a local dealership here decided to take a crap - specifically, one of the SCSI 1x CD-ROMs seems to have died. I've tried replacing it with a standard 4x SCSI - trying every jumper permuation I could think of, to no avail. Either it wankers the SCSI bus, or just isn't recognized by the system. The system seems to run (at least) a chunk of DOS, then boots from *both* of the CD-ROM drives to have all the functions available. Anyone here deal with non-IBM scsi drives in an IBM MCA box? (BTW, the System # is 7785-110, the IBM part # for the SCSI card is 66g1080. I've tried searching the web for darned near anything (including a few PS/2 FAQs) to no avail.) Thanks for any and all help you may be able to provide, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From emu at ecubics.com Thu Aug 12 12:25:38 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 9 track with SCSI? References: <3.0.3.32.19990812090923.009afc20@207.207.0.212> <37B316B9.53BD@bos.nl> Message-ID: <00a401bee4e7$b43f7af0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: wanderer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 12:47 PM Subject: 9 track with SCSI? > Hi All, > > Does anybody know if there exists a 9 track tape drive (vertically > mounted) which has a SCSI interface? I know there are front loader > 9 track types with a SCSI interface, but these are not the ones I'm > after. Try to find a PERTEC-to-SCSI interface. I guess than you have more choices for the tape drive. my 0.001 cents emanuel From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Aug 12 12:44:23 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Old Mechanical Terminal....(Data Access) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990812124423.00921770@207.207.0.212> Hey guys, I just picked up a DATA ACCESS 1620 terminal. It looks like a HUGE IBM Executive typewriter but, I know it's not. Anyone have any information on this machine? Like how do I configure a serial port to talk to it? Here's some pictures: http://mh106.infi.net/~arfonrg/collection/ ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 12 12:51:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Old Mechanical Terminal....(Data Access) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990812124423.00921770@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Hey guys, I just picked up a DATA ACCESS 1620 terminal. It looks like a > HUGE IBM Executive typewriter but, I know it's not. Anyone have any > information on this machine? Like how do I configure a serial port to talk > to it? > > Here's some pictures: > > http://mh106.infi.net/~arfonrg/collection/ Aha! This is a Diablo "teletype". I've got one, just not in that gnarly black color (I've forgotten what color mine is). I am pretty sure I have a manual for it but its long buried and would take an Act of Congress to root it out within a reasonable timeframe. At some point when my library is organized and catalogued I would be able to help you. Sorry to lead you on like that. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 12 12:44:34 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >WWW.JDR.COM 4mbx9 about 12-15$ each they are a good source that I've >used before. > >Allison OUCH! you should be able to pick up good 4 MB simms for more like $6 each. That is what I sold them for until my supplies run out. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Aug 12 13:24:40 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 9 track with SCSI? In-Reply-To: <37B316B9.53BD@bos.nl> from wanderer at "Aug 12, 1999 6:47:21 pm" Message-ID: <199908121824.OAA00748@pechter.dyndns.org> > Hi All, > > Does anybody know if there exists a 9 track tape drive (vertically > mounted) which has a SCSI interface? I know there are front loader > 9 track types with a SCSI interface, but these are not the ones I'm > after. > > Thanks, > > Ed > > Actually, the CDC Keystone drives could be mounted in both configs and were available in SCSI or Pertec. (Concurrent Computer used 'em in SCSI and Masscomp used 'em in Pertec... so when they merged I taught both...) Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Aug 12 13:27:00 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Old Mechanical Terminal....(Data Access) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990812124423.00921770@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <37b3121e0.3c43@diamond.archelon.com.archelon.com> In article <3.0.3.32.19990812124423.00921770@207.207.0.212>, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >Hey guys, I just picked up a DATA ACCESS 1620 terminal. It looks like a >HUGE IBM Executive typewriter but, I know it's not. Anyone have any >information on this machine? Like how do I configure a serial port to talk >to it? This looks like a generic Diablo 1620. I had one once, long ago, but gave it away after I got a faster clone. IIRC, it's an 8080-based machine, on a half- dozen or so cards in a backplane at the back. The interface is plain RS232 (or at least it was on the one I had; I suppose there might have been a current loop version). Speed (110, 150, 300 bps) and parity are set by the toggle switches under the top cover. The 'form' knob determines the printer's idea of the page length, in inches (except for the '1 line' setting, of course.) I've forgotten what the 'clear' button does; I think it's a reset button, and you need to press it after changing switch settings. The 'spacing' switch selects 10 or 12 characters per inch, but, via escape sequences, the head can be moved horizontally or vertically at 1/200 inch increments, allowing for proportional spacing and graphics. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 12 13:48:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Old Mechanical Terminal....(Data Access) In-Reply-To: <37b3121e0.3c43@diamond.archelon.com.archelon.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19990812124423.00921770@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <4.1.19990812114512.009ff3c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> > but, via escape sequences, the head can be > moved horizontally or vertically at 1/200 inch increments, allowing for > proportional spacing and graphics. Flash back to 1980 at USC. Wanted to write up a paper for publication and thought I would "leverage" the PLOT10 library by hacking a back end that generated Diablo escape sequences to use the dot character as the pixel. It worked great (albiet very slow) and I printed out my final copy using "film" ribbon. BIG MISTAKE. I used up an entire ribbon (like $40 back then) where 90% of the ribbon was essentially unused and 10% had little "dots" used up on it. --Chuck From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Aug 12 14:58:21 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Old Mechanical Terminal....(Data Access) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990812114512.009ff3c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 12, 99 11:48:44 am Message-ID: <199908121958.MAA25131@saul3.u.washington.edu> Chuck McManis wrote: > > but, via escape sequences, the head can be > > moved horizontally or vertically at 1/200 inch increments, allowing for > > proportional spacing and graphics. > > Flash back to 1980 at USC. Wanted to write up a paper for publication and > thought I would "leverage" the PLOT10 library by hacking a back end that > generated Diablo escape sequences to use the dot character as the pixel. It > worked great (albiet very slow) and I printed out my final copy using > "film" ribbon. BIG MISTAKE. I used up an entire ribbon (like $40 back then) > where 90% of the ribbon was essentially unused and 10% had little "dots" > used up on it. But didn't your final plots look great? :) -- Derek From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 12 15:10:20 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <199908122010.UAA29555@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Hmm, lucky day I guess... I got a 11/780 and a 11/785 field maintenance print set (2 different printsets) from the EE department. I'm rather surprised that I didnt notice these several years ago. Also, I saw what I swear must be a quad height pdp8 board. He wasnt sure what it was, so he wouldnt let me have it yet. He thought it might be a PDP11 board (did they make quad height PDP11 systems?). Heres what the board says: Excelan Exos 204 s/n 001993 It has a 16 pin male ribbon cable connector on the top of the board, and strange 2-part female connector in the middle of the board, sort of like a 10 pin and a 36 pin ribbon female connectors joined together so that there is a slight gap between them. some intel chips on the board are dated 1982, the board itself is dated 1984. Anyone know what this board is? -Lawrence LeMay From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Aug 12 15:20:10 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Fonts re-visited... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990812152010.009ac2e0@207.207.0.212> I know this is an old subject but, I swear, the last time it was brought up, I downloaded the fonts. But, I can't find them now!! Q: Where can I download the old ASR-33 TTY TTF font??? Q2: (NOT CLASSIC related) When I open up my terminal program in Winblows, it won't give me my full font selection. Any clues on how to get the ASR-33 fonts to work on the terminal program? Thanks, (Sorry about the Winblows question.) A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Aug 12 14:00:56 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Old Mechanical Terminal....(Data Access) Message-ID: <01BEE4D3.7BA81D00.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Thursday, August 12, 1999 1:52 PM, Sellam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@ncal.verio.com] wrote: > On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > > Hey guys, I just picked up a DATA ACCESS 1620 terminal. It looks like a > > HUGE IBM Executive typewriter but, I know it's not. Anyone have any > > information on this machine? Like how do I configure a serial port to talk > > to it? > > > > Here's some pictures: > > > > http://mh106.infi.net/~arfonrg/collection/ > Cool, Got one at home that looks just like it.... I've used it as a dumb terminal so I know mine works. If you don't find any better info, let me know and I'll open it up to see how it's wired. See Ya, Steve Robertson - From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 12 15:31:01 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Fonts re-visited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990812152010.009ac2e0@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990812153101.00e3d4d0@vpwisfirewall> At 03:20 PM 8/12/99 -0500, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >I know this is an old subject but, I swear, the last time it was brought >up, I downloaded the fonts. But, I can't find them now!! > >Q: Where can I download the old ASR-33 TTY TTF font??? At 05:46 PM 7/18/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >I recall that someone had dug up an ASR33 truetype font. If you know where >it is, please let me know, I can't find it in the archives. It's "Teleprinter", I got it from . >Q2: (NOT CLASSIC related) When I open up my terminal program in Winblows, >it won't give me my full font selection. Any clues on how to get the >ASR-33 fonts to work on the terminal program? I'm sure there is an alternative terminal program out there that will render with a TrueType font. On the other hand, Teleprinter doesn't look like much at 10 points on screen, as in WordPad. What are you trying to do? - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 12 15:42:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <199908122010.UAA29555@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Aug 12, 99 08:10:20 pm Message-ID: <199908122042.NAA25950@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 352 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990812/0d046bd2/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Aug 12 15:44:23 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Special IBM MCA system (Mopar) Help In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990812125720.009cc1c0@mail.30below.com> References: <37B316B9.53BD@bos.nl> Message-ID: <4.1.19990812163953.00a86d00@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:57 PM 8/12/99 -0400, Roger Merchberger said something like: -- snip -- >Anyone here deal with non-IBM scsi drives in an IBM MCA box? > >(BTW, the System # is 7785-110, the IBM part # for the SCSI card is >66g1080. I've tried searching the web for darned near anything (including a >few PS/2 FAQs) to no avail.) Have you excavated Peter Wendt's website? He's a well-reputed PS/2 guru and has an MCA page off from this one. Good luck Merch. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 12 15:47:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <990812164744.2020021b@trailing-edge.com> >Also, I saw what I swear must be a quad height pdp8 board. He wasnt >sure what it was, so he wouldnt let me have it yet. He thought it >might be a PDP11 board (did they make quad height PDP11 systems?). >Heres what the board says: > > Excelan > Exos 204 s/n 001993 > >It has a 16 pin male ribbon cable connector on the top of the board, >and strange 2-part female connector in the middle of the board, sort >of like a 10 pin and a 36 pin ribbon female connectors joined together >so that there is a slight gap between them. > >some intel chips on the board are dated 1982, the board itself is dated 1984. > >Anyone know what this board is? It is an Excelan network board. I'm not sure off the top of my head whether it's Q-bus or Unibus, but will do some research. It has drivers under BSD, I believe. The 16 pin connector goes to, I believe, an AUI network connector. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 12 16:00:02 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <199908122010.UAA29555@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990812135527.04047210@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:10 PM 8/12/99 +0000, Lawerence wrote: >Also, I saw what I swear must be a quad height pdp8 board. He wasnt >sure what it was, so he wouldnt let me have it yet. He thought it >might be a PDP11 board (did they make quad height PDP11 systems?). >Heres what the board says: > > Excelan > Exos 204 s/n 001993 DEC used the same basic connector on its first three busses (OMNI, UNI, and Q). and they evolved from the connector they used on the Flip chip chards. PDP-8 boards are : 1 "high" - Straignt 8, 8/I, 8/L, 8/S 4 "high" - 8/E/F/M 6 "high" - 8/a PDP-11 boards come in two flavors Unibus and Q-bus the are either 2 high, four high, or six high. Generally only Unibus and PDP-8/a boards are 6 high. (I don't think they ever made a Q22/CD/EF backplane.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 17:55:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <199908122010.UAA29555@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Aug 12, 99 08:10:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990812/78099736/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Thu Aug 12 18:52:48 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets References: Message-ID: <00e401bee51d$c8f6eab0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 4:55 PM Subject: Re: field maintenance print sets > > Also, I saw what I swear must be a quad height pdp8 board. He wasnt > > sure what it was, so he wouldnt let me have it yet. He thought it > > might be a PDP11 board (did they make quad height PDP11 systems?). > > > Heres what the board says: > > > > Excelan > > Exos 204 s/n 001993 > > Does it looks like the exos203 on http://vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/nquad.html ? cheers, emanuel From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 18:52:22 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets References: <00e401bee51d$c8f6eab0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: <9908121953570C.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> > Also, I saw what I swear must be a quad height pdp8 board. He wasnt >> > sure what it was, so he wouldnt let me have it yet. He thought it >> > might be a PDP11 board (did they make quad height PDP11 systems?). >> >> > Heres what the board says: >> > >> > Excelan >> > Exos 204 s/n 001993 >> > The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to look at the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic "flip chip" style handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal ejector handles, pdp8 boards have the plastic handles. -Dave McGuire From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Aug 12 19:30:20 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Aug 12, 1999 11:55:58 pm" Message-ID: <199908130030.UAA01280@pechter.dyndns.org> > > > Heres what the board says: > > > > Excelan > > Exos 204 s/n 001993 > > > > It has a 16 pin male ribbon cable connector on the top of the board, > > and strange 2-part female connector in the middle of the board, sort > > of like a 10 pin and a 36 pin ribbon female connectors joined together > > so that there is a slight gap between them. This is one of the early ethernet boards... I'm not sure if the 204 is Unibus or Qbus... Bill From therunk17 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 20:16:26 1999 From: therunk17 at earthlink.net (Ronald Fraser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Available Documentation, Parts, and Computers - part 1 Message-ID: <199908130115.SAA01980@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Would like the below listed items. Please let me know the total cost. Ronald A Fraser 11 Granger Rd Westborough, Ma 01581-1716 > > AT&T UNIX PC / 3B1 software and documentation - Complete copy of SYSV UNIX > version 3.51 for the 3B1/UNIXPC. Includes all manuals. Shrinkwrapped. > $15. > > > Control Data 9427H Disk Drive service manual - $5 > > > Coleco ADAM Logo manual - $5 > > Radofin Aquarius - includes PSU, missing cartridge port cover - $10 > Coleco Adam - System unit, printer, keyboard. System worked when last > used, printer non-functional, printer PSU good - $40 > > -- > Scott Ware ware@interaccess.com > > > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Aug 12 20:30:07 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Available Documentation, Parts, and Computers - part 1 In-Reply-To: <199908130115.SAA01980@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: You should send to the individual, not the list... On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Ronald Fraser wrote: > Would like the below listed items. Please let me know the total cost. > > Ronald A Fraser > 11 Granger Rd > Westborough, Ma 01581-1716 > > > > > AT&T UNIX PC / 3B1 software and documentation - Complete copy of SYSV UNIX > > version 3.51 for the 3B1/UNIXPC. Includes all manuals. Shrinkwrapped. > > $15. > > > > > > Control Data 9427H Disk Drive service manual - $5 > > > > > > Coleco ADAM Logo manual - $5 > > > > Radofin Aquarius - includes PSU, missing cartridge port cover - $10 > > > Coleco Adam - System unit, printer, keyboard. System worked when last > > used, printer non-functional, printer PSU good - $40 > > > > -- > > Scott Ware ware@interaccess.com > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 12 21:15:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <9908121953570C.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <00e401bee51d$c8f6eab0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: >>> > Heres what the board says: >>> > >>> > Excelan >>> > Exos 204 s/n 001993 >>> > > > The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to look at >the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic "flip chip" style >handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal ejector handles, pdp8 >boards have the plastic handles. > > -Dave McGuire Ah, BUT as it is a Third Party board, I don't think it is safe to assume that. Actually I don't think that's safe even with DEC boards since I've got them with both. Although all the Hex-Height boards I've got for the PDP-11 do match that description, IIRC. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Aug 12 21:20:11 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <9908121953570C.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 12, 99 07:52:22 pm Message-ID: <199908130220.TAA28550@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Dave: > The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to look at > the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic "flip chip" style > handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal ejector handles, pdp8 > boards have the plastic handles. This isn't the case. There are several quad height Unibus/pdp-11 cards that have plastic handles! Check the field guide or ask on the list! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Aug 12 21:21:09 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Laptop hard drive problems Message-ID: Whilst scrounging around in my stash, i found an old, old mitsubishi mp286L laptop, 286 model in like new condition. it boots up with a cmos error, but will boot dos from a floppy. needless to say the hard drive wont mount. i downloaded a generic bios setup problem and ran that, setting the hard drive type to 11 which is what the sticker said underneath the laptop. alas, fdisk cannot find it. tried a few debug LLF commands, but no go. any ideas at this point? i am unable to find any mitsubishi computer info anywhere. d From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 21:19:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <199908130220.TAA28550@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Aug 12, 99 07:20:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1049 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990813/bbffbb12/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Aug 12 21:31:04 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <199908130220.TAA28550@fraser.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Aug 12, 1999 07:20:11 pm" Message-ID: <199908130231.CAA00205@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Hi Dave: > > > The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to look at > > the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic "flip chip" style > > handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal ejector handles, pdp8 > > boards have the plastic handles. > > This isn't the case. There are several quad height Unibus/pdp-11 cards > that have plastic handles! Check the field guide or ask on the list! > > Kevin > Actually I didnt mention it, but the board I mentioned had one metal ejector handle, and one plastic flip chip style handle (white). -Lawrence LeMay From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 12 21:33:39 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101bee534$409f62c0$96721fd1@5x86jk> Best Buy was clearing those out at $4 each awhile back. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 1:18 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: 30 pin simms > > > >On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Kelly Barrow wrote: > >>hi, saw your post. do you have or have any idea where > >>i can find 16 meg 30 pin simms? i need 2 of them. any > >>help is appreciated. thanks. > > > > Try contacting Scott Bethke's outfit at http://www.gstek.com. They're > >probably not on their web pages, but they usually have some. > > > > -Dave McGuire > > It isn't that they are hard to find, they are just expensive ala $25 each. > > > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Aug 12 21:48:44 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Loading of Software? Message-ID: <37B3878C.73E2668B@idirect.com> This question is most likely to be answered by Megan Gentry since I don't know of anyone else who might have the background. In the very distant past, I used to prepare paper tape programs in so-called LDA format from an RT-11 based system. Since I don't and likely won't have access to a system with a paper tape reader (let alone a paper tape punch), does anyone remember if the program that does get loaded can also be prepared as an SAV file by setting the appropriate directives to the MACRO assembler and then the LINK program? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 12 22:18:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <9908121953570C.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to > look at the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic > "flip chip" style handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal > ejector handles, pdp8 boards have the plastic handles. Well, that starts me on the way to identifying the box of boards I picked up today. Except are you sure the plastic handled boards only go in the 8's? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Aug 12 22:13:24 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <002f01bee53a$d0b7e890$0f0a0a0a@l166> I also have several quad wide Qbus cards with plastic handles. Be carefull many even look the same at a glance. I have several Emulex UC08's (Quad wide Qbus with 2 SCSI ports) and a UC18 (Quad wide Unibus with 2 SCSI ports) and they look VERY similiar at a glance. Both have only plastic handles. The Mentec M90 CPU has plastic handles and the M100 has metal rail / ejectors. Dan >> >> > The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to look at >> > the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic "flip chip" style >> > handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal ejector handles, pdp8 >> > boards have the plastic handles. >> >> This isn't the case. There are several quad height Unibus/pdp-11 cards >> that have plastic handles! Check the field guide or ask on the list! > >For quad and hex cards : > >The general-ish rule is that boards that fill the full width of the >standard (for them) cardcage have metal handles, those that don't have >plastic handles. > >So Hex height unibus cards have metal handles. Quad height unibus cards >have plastic handles (because they don't fill a hex height slot), but >quad height Q-bus cards have metal handles (becuase Q-bus backplanes are >normally quad height. > >PDP8 Omnimbus quad cards have plastic handles. I guess that's becuase >they originally didn't go into guides/a cardcage so the metal ejector >handles aren't any use. > >-tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 22:25:47 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets References: <199908130220.TAA28550@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <9908122329240D.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >> The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to look at >> the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic "flip chip" style >> handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal ejector handles, pdp8 >> boards have the plastic handles. > >This isn't the case. There are several quad height Unibus/pdp-11 cards >that have plastic handles! Check the field guide or ask on the list! I retract my previous statement above. I've been hacking qbus pdp11 systems a lot lately and completely forgot about the great many quad-width unibus boards with plastic handles. I do apologize for being an idiot. I really do know my way around DEC hardware, even if it wasn't readily apparent from this obvious blunder. :-) Thanks for noticing this and correcting me. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 22:31:23 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets References: Message-ID: <9908122335030E.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to >> look at the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic >> "flip chip" style handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal >> ejector handles, pdp8 boards have the plastic handles. > >Well, that starts me on the way to identifying the box of boards I picked >up today. Except are you sure the plastic handled boards only go in the >8's? Nono, definitely not. Please don't miss the retraction that I just sent to the list. I don't know where my mind was. Numerous quad-width Unibus boards (the DL11-W comes to mind, as does the pdp11/34's KY11-LB front panel control board) have plastic handles and no metal ejectors. -Dave McGuire From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 12 22:48:51 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: Floppy drive info needed Message-ID: In a message dated 08/11/1999 6:41:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > I have the service manual for (one version) of the FD55GFR here, but the > only info on the jumpers is the schematic diagram (showing one large ASIC > for almost everything). And these jumpers have labels like D0, D1, D2, > D3, IU, HL, etc. Thanks -- I have since found another of the teac drives and the jumpers are plainly marked. The first one (which I posted the inquiry about) had no clear screening on the pcb. Glen 0/0 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 12 23:12:41 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: References: <9908121953570C.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990812211241.03451b38@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:18 PM 08/12/1999 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> The easy way to tell a quad pdp11 board from a quad pdp8 board is to >> look at the top and see if it's got metal ejector handles or plastic >> "flip chip" style handles. pdp11 boards have a metal spine and metal >> ejector handles, pdp8 boards have the plastic handles. > >Well, that starts me on the way to identifying the box of boards I picked >up today. Except are you sure the plastic handled boards only go in the >8's? Ummm... no! I've got a number of grant cards and other such PDP-11 Unibus critters with plastic handles. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 12 23:25:13 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms Message-ID: In a message dated 08/12/1999 2:15:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@netwiz.net writes: > It isn't that they are hard to find, they are just expensive ala $25 each. I'm not sure what area of the world you live in, but in central florida US$25 for a 16 mb 30-pin simm is a _real_ bargain. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 13 00:12:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: RT-11 ARGH! Message-ID: Is a RT-11 Media Kit on TK-50, that was built under V5.4 using some command which currently escapes me, bootable? I just realized that apparently V5.3 doesn't support TK50's. BLEEP!!!! I'd just try it, but don't want to have to type in the bootstrap if it isn't. Rather spend the time trying to figure out the best sequence of hoops to jump through if it isn't! BEEEEEEEEEEEEP! Just when I was starting to make some serious progress at getting my /73 put back together. BLEEP! On that note, I think I'd best get some sleep. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 13 00:26:15 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Re: field maintenance print sets" (Aug 12, 14:00) References: <4.1.19990812135527.04047210@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <9908130626.ZM2287@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 12, 14:00, Chuck McManis wrote: > PDP-11 boards come in two flavors Unibus and Q-bus the are either 2 high, > four high, or six high. Generally only Unibus and PDP-8/a boards are 6 > high. (I don't think they ever made a Q22/CD/EF backplane.) They did make one -- DDV11-B hex wide 9 slot. However, the E/F section isn't bussed, only having +5/+12V/0V connections (ABCD are normal Q-Bus). It's meant for third-party development, and there are no hex Q-bus boards. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Aug 13 03:52:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: End of Summer SoCal events In-Reply-To: <9908122329240D.14195@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <199908130220.TAA28550@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Over in the PS/2 hardware newsgroup a notion is brewing to have some kind of a meeting for people in the SoCal area. Since I am one of those stiring it up, I thought it might make a good event for any classic computer list people in the area to attend as well. Pardon me for being lazy but below is exactly what I posted to the newsgroup. I live in the city of Orange, but visit a few places down by the beach, OCC swapmeet etc. I am fairly motivated for a local meeting too. To kick something off I have posted this with a new subject back to the newsgroup as well as emailed it to you. Unless you just want to declare to the world that you too are a proud SoCaler, don't post back to the newsgroup, send me an email instead. I'll collect up the names and email addresses and make a SoCal PS/2 address list and email everybody back in about a week and we can privately sort out a good meeting time and place. Once we have time and place, we can announce that back to the newsgroup and pick up the stragglers a week or so before the meeting happens. My favorite meeting format is; Mini swapmeet with tables etc. to do some trading etc. Some sort of techy "meeting", like a Linux install maybe Some sort of food/drink A couple systems setup to make floppies or CDs nonstop. ;) Rough time frame, end of summer before school gets really going hard. Location; anyplace in SoCal is OK with me, closer to Orange is nice, but a good vendor with a nice parking lot is worth the drive. Unless I get a strong objection I think the meeting should be open to any old computer collectors/users and plan to post this message to the classic computer list. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 13 06:36:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: RT-11 ARGH! Message-ID: <990813073655.2020025e@trailing-edge.com> >Is a RT-11 Media Kit on TK-50, that was built under V5.4 using some command >which currently escapes me, bootable? If it was built with MUB.COM, yes, it is bootable. > I just realized that apparently V5.3 >doesn't support TK50's. Right, it doesn't. > BLEEP!!!! > I'd just try it, but don't want to have to type in the bootstrap if it > isn't. Rather spend the time trying to figure out the best sequence of > hoops to jump through if it isn't! BEEEEEEEEEEEEP! Just when I was > starting to make some serious progress at getting my /73 put back together. > BLEEP! I have to admit that I'm a bit unclear on what the problem is that you're trying to solve, much less what you're trying to do to overcome the difficulties that you're throwing in your own path :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Aug 13 09:40:43 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <9908130626.ZM2287@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 12, 14:00, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > PDP-11 boards come in two flavors Unibus and Q-bus the are either 2 high, > > four high, or six high. Generally only Unibus and PDP-8/a boards are 6 > > high. (I don't think they ever made a Q22/CD/EF backplane.) > > They did make one -- DDV11-B hex wide 9 slot. However, the E/F section > isn't bussed, only having +5/+12V/0V connections (ABCD are normal Q-Bus). > It's meant for third-party development, and there are no hex Q-bus boards. "no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? (each are hex wide boards) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Aug 13 10:08:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 DEC made a wirewrap card in hex width for customer use to go with that odd hex backplane or customer constructed hex backplanes. > controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? > (each are hex wide boards) PDP-8A is omnibus not Qbus, but 8As are not that odd. It was also possible to build omnibus system to hex or wider as "customer constructed". Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 13 10:18:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:46 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <990813111815.20200277@trailing-edge.com> >"no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 >controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? >(each are hex wide boards) Seeing as how they're not Q-bus but Omnibus boards, they're perfectly normal. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Aug 13 10:19:42 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > "no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 > > controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? > > (each are hex wide boards) > > PDP-8A is omnibus not Qbus, but 8As are not that odd. Gort! Remind me to never comment on threads before noon! (never fully awake before noon) B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Aug 13 10:28:59 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: VARIAN Core Memory Message-ID: <199908131528.JAA06341@uswest.net> Hi, A friend of mine has a core memory board set from a Varian computer he is contemplating selling. He believes it is complete except for the power supplies. The boards read: MEMORY KIT 01A0015-F&P S/N 000x INTERCHANGEASBLE: YES ( ) NO (X) POS ( ) (the core has S/N 0001) It is a total of three single boards (approx 8x12) and the core memory boards (8x12x3) with the memory sandwiched in the middle. Anyone trying to restore a Varian and need memory? Let me know, clint From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 13 10:41:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: RT-11 ARGH! In-Reply-To: <990813073655.2020025e@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 13, 99 07:36:55 am Message-ID: <199908131541.IAA25283@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990813/4d603ddd/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Aug 13 13:19:13 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: References: <9908130626.ZM2287@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990813111831.04217220@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> That would be because they were hex wide OMNIBUS boards Jim. :-) --Chuck At 07:40 AM 8/13/99 -0700, JimW wrote: >"no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 >controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? >(each are hex wide boards) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 13 13:17:42 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Is the Terak Y2K compliant? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990813131742.01ba32d0@vpwisfirewall> I received an apparently serious e-mail from someone who'd visited my Terak web page that asked the question above. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 13 13:38:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: (message from James Willing on Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:40:43 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990813183803.26418.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > "no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 > controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? > (each are hex wide boards) If your PDP-8/a CPU and RL8-A are Q-bus boards, then yes, they are >*REAL*< oddballs. All of my 8/e and 8/a gear uses Omnibus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 14:00:50 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets References: Message-ID: <99081315022507.16708@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, James Willing wrote: >> > "no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 >> > controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? >> > (each are hex wide boards) >> >> PDP-8A is omnibus not Qbus, but 8As are not that odd. > >Gort! Remind me to never comment on threads before noon! (never fully >awake before noon) B^} I know the feeling, man. Yesterday I had a quad-wide Unibus board (with plastic handles) sitting on my desk 4" from my keyboard when I typed that there were no Unibus boards with plastic handles. ;) -Dave McGuire From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Aug 13 14:46:31 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Duh! (was Re: field maintenance print sets) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990813111831.04217220@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > That would be because they were hex wide OMNIBUS boards Jim. :-) > --Chuck Yeah, Duh! ... So far you and about a dozen other people have pointed out (yet again) why I should never jump into a thread early in the morning... B^} Well... maybe one day I'll learn... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 12:40:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <002f01bee53a$d0b7e890$0f0a0a0a@l166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Aug 12, 99 11:13:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1362 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990813/551d6a66/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 12:44:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <9908130626.ZM2287@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 13, 99 05:26:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 995 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990813/5023896f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 12:52:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Aug 13, 99 07:40:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 343 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990813/45557cb7/attachment.ksh From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Fri Aug 13 15:20:34 1999 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: WANTED: cmi 5412 hard drive service manual In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Aug 13, 99 12:46:31 pm Message-ID: <199908132020.PAA24082@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I'm looking for a Computer Memories Inc. 5412 service manual. Actually, all I want are the pin outs and voltages going to the spindle motor board, spindle motor and head motor. Thanks. john -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Aug 13 15:29:48 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Saved a Modcomp Classic Message-ID: <37B4803C.ED2D5C6E@digiweb.com> Today I managed to sve a Modcomp Classic minicomputer from a fate worse than death. It is a tall (5ft) dual width cabinet, one housing the CPU the other a mag tape drive. It was used as a dat comm concentrator. Don't know anything about these machines. Has anyone any info? I'll try and put up some pictures this weekend. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 13 17:55:04 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: field maintenance print sets" (Aug 13, 18:38) References: <19990813183803.26418.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <9908132355.ZM2961@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 13, 18:38, Eric Smith wrote: > Subject: Re: field maintenance print sets > Jim wrote: > > "no hex Q-bus boards" - Really? Then the PDP-8/a CPU, and RL02 > > controller (for the 8/a) boards I have here must be REAL oddballs, no? > > (each are hex wide boards) > > If your PDP-8/a CPU and RL8-A are Q-bus boards, then yes, they are > >*REAL*< oddballs. All of my 8/e and 8/a gear uses Omnibus. Poor Jim's had so much flak for that, that I couldn't possibly comment, except to say that, for once, I actually thought about the words before I hit "send" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Aug 13 20:58:43 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bee5f8$897440a0$a1721fd1@5x86jk> I will check to see if Best Buy has anymore 16 meg simms, since $25 is good price ?? Up north they almost give them away. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of > Glenatacme@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:25 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: 30 pin simms > > > In a message dated 08/12/1999 2:15:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mikeford@netwiz.net writes: > > > It isn't that they are hard to find, they are just expensive > ala $25 each. > > I'm not sure what area of the world you live in, but in central > florida US$25 > for a 16 mb 30-pin simm is a _real_ bargain. > > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 13 22:28:36 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: DEC Modems Message-ID: <19990813.222837.254.4.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Somebody on this list one told me that he was interested in genuine DEC modems. I spotted these two at a wrecking yard today: DF-112AA (1200 baud, I think) DF-03 (300 baud, I'm sure) If these old modems are of interest, I'm sure I can pick them up cheaply. Respond via private e-mail. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ss at allegro.com Fri Aug 13 22:45:44 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted Message-ID: <199908140345.UAA19515@bart.allegro.com> Hi, I picked up a Bell & Howell "micromodule 85", which is a single board microprocessor trainer for the Intel 8085. But...I have no docs for it, and can't find any on the web. BTW, it's got the worst keypad I've seen...here's an ASCII picture: 4 5 8 C W R 3 6 9 D P D 2 7 A E L S 1 0 B F X B -------------- ------ white keys red keys (may look better with fixed font) Yes, the "1", "2", "3", "4", "5" indeed climbs up and then turns to the right. Extremely weird! It powers up, at least :) thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Aug 14 00:01:05 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted In-Reply-To: <199908140345.UAA19515@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 ss@allegro.com wrote: > Hi, > > I picked up a Bell & Howell "micromodule 85", which is a single board > microprocessor trainer for the Intel 8085. But...I have no docs for it, > and can't find any on the web. > > BTW, it's got the worst keypad I've seen...here's an ASCII picture: > > 4 5 8 C W R > 3 6 9 D P D > 2 7 A E L S > 1 0 B F X B > -------------- ------ > white keys red keys > > (may look better with fixed font) > > Yes, the "1", "2", "3", "4", "5" indeed climbs up and then turns to the > right. Extremely weird! Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? But for other radices, certainly a bug generator to rival the membrane alphabetic-sequential keyboards of yore. (ABCDE vs. QWERTY) > > It powers up, at least :) > This particular state of the machine is useful during de-bugging. Cheers John From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Aug 14 00:44:29 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Is the Terak Y2K compliant? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990813131742.01ba32d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: >I received an apparently serious e-mail from someone who'd visited >my Terak web page that asked the question above. > >- John Whats wrong, aren't they falling for the "maybe not" better send it to me line? From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Aug 14 01:39:59 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: <000301bee5f8$897440a0$a1721fd1@5x86jk> References: Message-ID: >I will check to see if Best Buy has anymore 16 meg simms, since $25 is good >price ?? Up north they almost give them away. I attended the bankruptcy auction of MGC (something like that) the big memory supplier to Best Buy and Costco. Two items stand out, one office had three large boxes of filled out rebate forms, and a fax machine had a sheet in it with a nice personal greeting from somone at Best Buy and query on the status of a RMA for a couple lots of 700 simms. Yipes, glad I don't have those. BTW I bet those Best Buy simms are 72 pin, not 30 pin. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Aug 14 02:25:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > BTW, it's got the worst keypad I've seen...here's an ASCII picture: > > > > 4 5 8 C W R > > 3 6 9 D P D > > 2 7 A E L S > > 1 0 B F X B > > -------------- ------ > > white keys red keys > > > > (may look better with fixed font) > > > > Yes, the "1", "2", "3", "4", "5" indeed climbs up and then turns to the > > right. Extremely weird! > > Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... > then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? Aha! That makes perfect sense. Good eye. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Aug 14 08:25:29 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: check it out Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990814092529.007a2750@mail.wincom.net> >To: avfreelancers@topica.com >From: Keith Kay >Subject: check it out >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:41:19 -0700 >Reply-To: avfreelancers@topica.com >X-Loop: 10002755 > >You old pros probably have been here but word of this site just reached >Grapeland via Hong Kong. >Cheers, Keith Kay > > >This one came to me via a friend, and I thought it was a joke, but it's >really amazing. The note below tells it all. Try it! > >Barry > > From: David Thurston > To: Saul Lockhart <100426.1233@compuserve.com> > Subject: new camera > Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:28 AM > >I just found an unbelievable new web site that you must check > out. Misrocoft is testing a new technology that allows you to take a >picture >through your present computer. I know, it shouldn't be possible,but they > have done it.I went to the web site and did it my self and was absolutely >amazed at the accuracy of the photo. > > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/3072/camera1.html >>> >>> > >-- >This footer has been added by the list owner: > >You can unsubscribe from this list at any time by sending a blank message to >avfreelancers-unsubscribe@topica.com >You must be using the email address with which you subscribed. > >________________________________________________________________________ >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > > > Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sat Aug 14 09:10:27 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: check it out References: <3.0.5.32.19990814092529.007a2750@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <000701bee65e$c30d5de0$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> When I tried it your picture was still in the buffer :) > >To: avfreelancers@topica.com > >From: Keith Kay > >Subject: check it out > >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:41:19 -0700 > >Reply-To: avfreelancers@topica.com > >X-Loop: 10002755 > > > >You old pros probably have been here but word of this site just reached > >Grapeland via Hong Kong. > >Cheers, Keith Kay > > > > > >This one came to me via a friend, and I thought it was a joke, but it's > >really amazing. The note below tells it all. Try it! > > > >Barry > > > > From: David Thurston > > To: Saul Lockhart <100426.1233@compuserve.com> > > Subject: new camera > > Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:28 AM > > > >I just found an unbelievable new web site that you must check > > out. Misrocoft is testing a new technology that allows you to take a > >picture > >through your present computer. I know, it shouldn't be possible,but they > > have done it.I went to the web site and did it my self and was absolutely > >amazed at the accuracy of the photo. > > > > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/3072/camera1.html > >>> > >>> > > > >-- > >This footer has been added by the list owner: > > > >You can unsubscribe from this list at any time by sending a blank message to > >avfreelancers-unsubscribe@topica.com > >You must be using the email address with which you subscribed. > > > >________________________________________________________________________ > >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > > > > > > > > > Charles E. Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 14 09:07:14 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms Message-ID: <001801bee65e$4fd31360$0400c0a8@winbook> On my last trip to Costco, I noted that their 64MB dimm's were $40. How does that compare with where you are? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 12:37 AM Subject: RE: 30 pin simms >>I will check to see if Best Buy has anymore 16 meg simms, since $25 is good >>price ?? Up north they almost give them away. > >I attended the bankruptcy auction of MGC (something like that) the big >memory supplier to Best Buy and Costco. Two items stand out, one office had >three large boxes of filled out rebate forms, and a fax machine had a sheet >in it with a nice personal greeting from somone at Best Buy and query on >the status of a RMA for a couple lots of 700 simms. Yipes, glad I don't >have those. > >BTW I bet those Best Buy simms are 72 pin, not 30 pin. > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Aug 14 09:10:11 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: <000301bee5f8$897440a0$a1721fd1@5x86jk> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Aug 13, 1999 08:58:43 pm" Message-ID: <199908141410.OAA02709@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > > In a message dated 08/12/1999 2:15:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > mikeford@netwiz.net writes: > > > > > It isn't that they are hard to find, they are just expensive > > ala $25 each. > > > > I'm not sure what area of the world you live in, but in central > > florida US$25 > > for a 16 mb 30-pin simm is a _real_ bargain. > > > > Glen Goodwin > > 0/0 > > > Then goto www.datamem.com or www.memoryx.com and buy as many as you like for about $25 each. -Lawrence LeMay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 14 09:57:00 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990814092529.007a2750@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990814075700.00979840@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 09:25 14-08-1999 -0400, you wrote: >>To: avfreelancers@topica.com >>From: Keith Kay >>Subject: check it out >>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:41:19 -0700 >>Reply-To: avfreelancers@topica.com >>X-Loop: 10002755 >> >>You old pros probably have been here but word of this site just reached >>Grapeland via Hong Kong. >>Cheers, Keith Kay Ok... at first I thought it was spam, or some sort of scam to get one to click through to a porn page. I investigated it for that very reason. I checked all the pulled-up pages for malicious or address-harvesting code, and was unable to find any. Upon clicking through to the last page, the photo pulled up is a very well-done digital shot of what looks like a young ape (darned if I can identify the species). What it amounts to is one colossal joke. Somebody Out There has a very twisted sense of humor. Though I really do have to wonder how many people would actually fall for the idea that their monitor can go both ways... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 14 10:03:33 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Beagle Bag (was Re: check it out) Message-ID: <990814110333.2020036e@trailing-edge.com> >>You old pros probably have been here but word of this site just reached >>Grapeland via Hong Kong. > > Though I really do have to wonder how many people would actually fall for >the idea that their monitor can go both ways... On the old "Beagle Bag" collection for the Apple ][, there were some impressively done programs in "Magic Pack". In one of them, you are directed to hold a playing card up to the screen, type "RUN", and the computer scanned the card and told you what type it was. In another, called "Plenty Questions" (like 20 Questions), the computer asks a bunch of Yes/No questions which you answer and are typed in. And the computer could guess it right 100% of the time. All **assuming** that a sufficiently trained person was sitting at the computer keyboard. For the card scanner, you would type "3CN" (as the letters "RUN" appeared on the screen) to indicate that, say, a 3 of Clubs was being held up to the screen. For "Plenty Questions", you get to type one letter of the object in response to each Y/N question. Of course, "Magic Pack" depended on a good amount of showmanship on the part of the computer's owner as he dupes his friends into believing the mystical powers that his lowly Apple ][ has acquired. And not doing the tricks so often that the audience figures out what's going on! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ss at allegro.com Sat Aug 14 12:29:00 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199908141729.KAA20904@bart.allegro.com> Re: > > > 4 5 8 C W R > > > 3 6 9 D P D > > > 2 7 A E L S > > > 1 0 B F X B > > > -------------- ------ > > > > Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... > > then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? > > Aha! That makes perfect sense. Good eye. Well, it might if either the 4/3/2/1 and the 5/6/7/0 columns were in the same order. ... but ... what's that 0 doing "after" the 7? In short, I don't see it is vaguely appropriate for octal, either :) SS From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Aug 14 12:11:48 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms In-Reply-To: <199908141410.OAA02709@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <000301bee5f8$897440a0$a1721fd1@5x86jk> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Aug 13, 1999 08:58:43 pm" Message-ID: >Then goto www.datamem.com or www.memoryx.com and buy as many as you like >for about $25 each. Being a cheapskate is sort of a hobby of mine, so just FYI to any lurker full list price buyers, there are a number of sites that track prices, and ram often changes daily. http://www.macseek.com/ http://deal-mac.com/community.html#trackers From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 14 13:07:14 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 30 pin simms Message-ID: <199908141807.AA24987@world.std.com> < from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 14, 99 11:03:33 am Message-ID: <199908142126.OAA23359@saul9.u.washington.edu> Tim Shoppa wrote: > On the old "Beagle Bag" collection for the Apple ][, there were some > impressively done programs in "Magic Pack". In one of them, you > are directed to hold a playing card up to the screen, type "RUN", and > the computer scanned the card and told you what type it was. In another, > called "Plenty Questions" (like 20 Questions), the computer asks a bunch > of Yes/No questions which you answer and are typed in. And the computer > could guess it right 100% of the time. I have a copy of the disk but no manual, so I had to figure out what trick each program used by going through the listing. Try _that_ with the latest Microsoft technology! > Of course, "Magic Pack" depended on a good amount of showmanship on > the part of the computer's owner as he dupes his friends into believing > the mystical powers that his lowly Apple ][ has acquired. And not > doing the tricks so often that the audience figures out what's going > on! There is a third program in the set, in which you and the computer alternate typing in words. The trick is that each word needs to begin with the letter that the last word ended with. One of the best parts of the design of the programs is that each one has a set of defaults in case you don't know the trick. With the playing-card scanner, if you really DO type "RUN" (or anything that doesn't correspond to an actual card) it goes through its scanning routine and then comes up with "PLAYING CARD" (instead of "ACE OF SPADES" or whatever). With Plenty Questions, if you don't use the special key sequence that puts it in "magic" mode but just answer the questions normally, it will choose your object from a set of canned choices. Seeing the canned choices is almost better than seeing the magic behavior of the program. -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 17:49:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990814075700.00979840@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Aug 14, 99 07:57:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990814/6ec69923/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 14 22:57:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: check it out Message-ID: <199908150357.AA22754@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Flying spot scanner. Go back about 25-30 years and you could get one for > test patterns for TV service, B&K was one vendor here in the us. The > patterns were 35MM slides if memory serves. It seems to me that maybe, just maybe, if you shine a bright enough image (with very good contrast) at a stock CRT you could detect the variations in the beam current. I think this was tried a while back in a CRT specially made for the application in an early memory device. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 15 02:03:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted In-Reply-To: <199908141729.KAA20904@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 1999 ss@allegro.com wrote: > > > > 4 5 8 C W R > > > > 3 6 9 D P D > > > > 2 7 A E L S > > > > 1 0 B F X B > > > > -------------- ------ > > > > > > Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... > > > then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? > > > > Aha! That makes perfect sense. Good eye. > > Well, it might if either the 4/3/2/1 and the 5/6/7/0 columns were in the > same order. ... but ... what's that 0 doing "after" the 7? In short, > I don't see it is vaguely appropriate for octal, either :) Decimal: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11... Octal: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11... Get it? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 15 02:45:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:18:32 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990815074502.32619.qmail@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > It seems to me that maybe, just maybe, if you shine a bright enough image > (with very good contrast) at a stock CRT you could detect the variations > in the beam current. I think this was tried a while back in a CRT > specially made for the application in an early memory device. I imagine you're thinking of Williams Tube memory, which was used on various computers before core memory was available, including the IBM 701 and 702 (their first mass-produced electronic computers for scientific and business applications, respectively). Williams tube memory worked by sensing the potential at the face of the tube, not by sensing the beam current. IBM apparently was never able to make Williams Tube memory work reliably at the density that they originally quoted to customers (1K bits per tube), so they scaled it back to 512 bits per tube with twice as many tubes. When core memory became practical, IBM retrofitted the 701s and 702s they had already sold. Meanwhile, Thomas Watson Jr. heard that the 705 team was planning to use Williams Tube memory instead of core because it was cheaper. He apparently said something about the stupidity of using something that doesn't work instead of something that does on the basis of the economy of the former. The 705 shipped with core memory. :-) As did allmost all IBM computers from then until the introduction of semiconductor main memory on the 360/85 and thin-film memory on the 360/95. Does anyone know how RCA's Selectron memory tube worked? I've seen pictures but no explanation. Memory wasn't the only part of early computers that used special and somewhat bizarre electron tubes. One of the earliest CRT display devices was the Charactron. This worked by defocusing the electron beam, using one set of deflection coils to steer the electrons through a character stencil (like a shadow mask), and a second set of deflection coils to steer the electrons to the desired character location on the screen. If memory serves, this type of display was used on Whirlwind. Presumably it was more economical than using a standard XY oscilliscope with either a hardware vector character generator or software. Eric From amclaren at microsoft.com Sun Aug 15 03:50:06 1999 From: amclaren at microsoft.com (Andrew McLaren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets) Message-ID: <01B7D7441E49D211965A0008C7FAD3AE0240E0FA@SYD-MSG-01> Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? I have a vast array of first-hand observances which complement my own intuitive feeling, that buggerising around with computers is best done around midnight to 2am. The best tech-heads are always "non compis mentis" before midday. Why is that? One of the unsolved problems of Computing Science .... Cheers, Andrew /* Disclaimer: my own opinions, not the official policy of Microsoft Corporation */ -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 1:20 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: field maintenance print sets [ ... etc ... ] Gort! Remind me to never comment on threads before noon! (never fully awake before noon) B^} [ ... etc ... ] From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Aug 15 05:54:21 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 5250 Emulator? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990815065421.0079f2e0@mail.wincom.net> There is a pc board in my collection labled "5250 Emulator". Can anyone tell me anything about this? Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From a2k at one.net Sun Aug 15 07:33:09 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets) In-Reply-To: <01B7D7441E49D211965A0008C7FAD3AE0240E0FA@SYD-MSG-01> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Andrew McLaren wrote: > Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? Because: 1) Coffee takes time to work 2) It takes a long time to wake up after two or three hours of sleep 3) Coffee takes a long time to work 4) Hangovers, etc. 5) Coffee takes a very long time to work and there's no Jolt around.. ;) Kevin From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 15 08:51:21 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: 5250 Emulator? References: <3.0.5.32.19990815065421.0079f2e0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <37B6C5D9.BA147CA1@bigfoot.com> It's a card to allow your PC (using drivers and a 5250 client) to interface to other machines as a 5250 type terminal, such as an AS/400. I use them at work and they are very useful for people that still use twinaxial cable to the server. you should have a T shaped unit that has a 15 pin connection on the end that attaches to the card's connector, and it should have a coax type connection with 2 center conductors on the other 2 ends. this is the terminator/passthru that allows twinaxial connection. by the way Perle (canada too) still sells ISA, PCI and MCA 5250 emuls starting at $250...of course they usually get about $1.50 at the local junk fests/swap meets. Don't toss it though, someone probably has a use for it. Charles E. Fox wrote: > There is a pc board in my collection labled "5250 Emulator". Can anyone > tell me anything about this? From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 15 09:18:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron Message-ID: <199908151418.AA10907@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 14, 99 11:57:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 701 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/7c67001d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 10:47:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 15, 99 00:18:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/9d2a67f7/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 15 11:08:27 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <19990815074502.32619.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I imagine you're thinking of Williams Tube memory, which was used on > various computers before core memory was available,... A very close relative, but not the reference I had seen. I think the thing that I saw was explaining a new tube that tried to simplify even the Williams Tube. > Does anyone know how RCA's Selectron memory tube worked? I've seen pictures > but no explanation. Do you have a number for it? > Memory wasn't the only part of early computers that used special and somewhat > bizarre electron tubes. One of the earliest CRT display devices was the > Charactron. There was also a monoscope character generator - essentially a camera tube with a permanent image of characters. I suppose thru some rather fancy scn circuitry, one could have a character ROM. RCA type 4560, for those that care. William Donzelli aw288@osf.org From edick at idcomm.com Sun Aug 15 11:25:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Ferguson BIG-BOARD mod's Message-ID: <000c01bee73a$cd989180$0400c0a8@winbook> Some weeks back, Allison Parent wrote about some mods for the AMPRO LITTLE BOARD-I to improve performance. These were interesting, but now I'm looking for published mod's for the Ferguson BIG-BOARD, which was quite popular, but had only Single-Density floppy support via a WD 1771 and which used a standard (2.5 MHz) Z-80. I'm interested in finding out whether there are any published modifications, supported with code, to enhance this board's speed, and to upgrade its FDC to a 179x type using both FM and MFM. I've got aboug half a dozen of these boards and want to know that there's a way to fix them up before I pass them on to interested parties. Does anyone know of a reliable source of such material? Dick From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 15 11:34:44 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <19990815074502.32619.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Memory wasn't the only part of early computers that used special and somewhat > bizarre electron tubes. The lights ("blinkenlights") on some early machines (and even a few not so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Aug 15 11:50:58 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Drivers needed Message-ID: <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Hi, I just acquired a NIC for MAC, it's an "Assante MacCom+ II E" etheernet card. What do I need to connect the mac to the ethernet network. I got the card without doc or installation program. Any help would be great. The MAC is a IIvx running 7.1 I'd like to have TCP/IP or any other way to talk to the *indows network. Thanks Francois From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 15 11:54:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <19990815074502.32619.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 15 Aug 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > > It seems to me that maybe, just maybe, if you shine a bright enough image > > (with very good contrast) at a stock CRT you could detect the variations > > in the beam current. I think this was tried a while back in a CRT > > specially made for the application in an early memory device. > > I imagine you're thinking of Williams Tube memory, which was used on > various computers before core memory was available, including the IBM 701 > and 702 (their first mass-produced electronic computers for scientific > and business applications, respectively). And the Bureau of Standards Southwestern Automatic Computer (or SWAC). The first computer built west of the Rockies, and the fastest in the world when it was inaugurated (fall of 1950). Built at UCLA by a team headed by Harry Huskey. > IBM apparently was never able to make Williams Tube memory work reliably > at the density that they originally quoted to customers (1K bits per tube), > so they scaled it back to 512 bits per tube with twice as many tubes. The SWAC's density was 1 bit per tube :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Aug 15 11:57:50 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Drivers needed Message-ID: <653a350b.24e84b8e@aol.com> In a message dated 8/15/99 12:42:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fauradon@mn.mediaone.net writes: > Hi, > I just acquired a NIC for MAC, it's an "Assante MacCom+ II E" etheernet > card. What do I need to connect the mac to the ethernet network. I got the > card without doc or installation program. Any help would be great. > The MAC is a IIvx running 7.1 > I'd like to have TCP/IP or any other way to talk to the *indows network. > Thanks > Francois the only way i know is you have to have a machine running win nt since it can speak appletalk from the mac. D.B. Young Team OS/2 -->this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 15 11:56:43 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets) In-Reply-To: <01B7D7441E49D211965A0008C7FAD3AE0240E0FA@SYD-MSG-01> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Andrew McLaren wrote: > Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? > > I have a vast array of first-hand observances which complement my own > intuitive feeling, that buggerising around with computers is best done > around midnight to 2am. The best tech-heads are always "non compis mentis" > before midday. > > Why is that? One of the unsolved problems of Computing Science .... Because you generally don't get annoyed by people walking up to you asking questions at that time. You can get absorbed inbto what you are doing without being interrupted and losing your train of thought every time someone bugs you. Its a time when you can pretty much be anti-social and get away with it for the most part. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From cureau at centuryinter.net Sun Aug 15 12:07:17 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:47 2005 Subject: Drivers needed References: <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <37B6F3C5.ADF65C53@centuryinter.net> > I just acquired a NIC for MAC, it's an "Assante MacCom+ II E" etheernet > card. What do I need to connect the mac to the ethernet network. I got the > card without doc or installation program. Any help would be great. > The MAC is a IIvx running 7.1 > I'd like to have TCP/IP or any other way to talk to the *indows network. This sounds like a job for Samba! If you just want to be able to use basic TCP/IP services, you need no extra software or hardware -- you can telnet and ftp to your heart's content. To actually see any shared drives, printers, etc. on the Windows network, you need either a Samba server or a NT server that can talk Appletalk... Hope this helps, Chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 15 12:33:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >Hi, >I just acquired a NIC for MAC, it's an "Assante MacCom+ II E" etheernet >card. What do I need to connect the mac to the ethernet network. I got the >card without doc or installation program. Any help would be great. >The MAC is a IIvx running 7.1 >I'd like to have TCP/IP or any other way to talk to the *indows network. >Thanks >Francois You _might_ be able to find the drivers on their site. IIRC, Asante keeps a wide range of drivers available. I wouldn't be surprised to see the card is still available as a while back I noticed they were still selling their SCSI-to-Ethernet boxes, and some NuBus cards. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 15 12:46:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: <37B6F3C5.ADF65C53@centuryinter.net> References: <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >> I just acquired a NIC for MAC, it's an "Assante MacCom+ II E" etheernet >> card. What do I need to connect the mac to the ethernet network. I got the >> card without doc or installation program. Any help would be great. >> The MAC is a IIvx running 7.1 >> I'd like to have TCP/IP or any other way to talk to the *indows network. > > This sounds like a job for Samba! > If you just want to be able to use basic TCP/IP services, you need no >extra software or hardware -- you can telnet and ftp to your heart's content. >To actually see any shared drives, printers, etc. on the Windows network, you >need either a Samba server or a NT server that can talk Appletalk... > >Hope this helps, >Chris Yes, but I'm pretty sure based on my experiences a couple years ago adding ethernet to a couple of my older Mac's that he does need drivers for the card he mentions above. I believe that is what he's talking about. Unless I missed the point and he's looking for a TCP stack, at which point I think the best bet for System 7.1 would be MacTCP. As for Samba, how would that solve the problem? Is there a Mac server or client? The best/cheapest solution is to have Linux box acting as a server on your network running NFS, Netatalk, and Samba. Alternatively if you've got a copy or can afford a copy, as mentioned you can run WinNT Server. I was stupid enough to buy a copy (for learning purposes, I don't run Windows at all), and was surprised how well it performs as a Appletalk server. What would make me happy is if you could still buy a NFS client for the Mac. I'd like to have a good NFS client for my PowerMac and have search high and low without finding any that are still for sale. All the companies that made them seem to have been bought out and their products discontinued :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 15 13:37:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: check it out Message-ID: <199908151837.AA00916@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37B7094F.F63E83FA@centuryinter.net> > Yes, but I'm pretty sure based on my experiences a couple years ago adding > ethernet to a couple of my older Mac's that he does need drivers for the > card he mentions above. I believe that is what he's talking about. Unless > I missed the point and he's looking for a TCP stack, at which point I think > the best bet for System 7.1 would be MacTCP. Ugh...misunderstood what he was asking...but didn't System 7 come with TCP/IP services? > As for Samba, how would that solve the problem? Is there a Mac server or > client? The best/cheapest solution is to have Linux box acting as a server > on your network running NFS, Netatalk, and Samba. This is what I had meant. Sorry about the confusion... From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Aug 15 14:13:29 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: DEC Pro Technical Manual Message-ID: <37B71159.53E7801@halcyon.com> I picked up a Professional 300 Series "Technical Manual" (EK-PC350-TM-001) yesterday that covers just the Pro 350. It is a voluminous tome with lots of details about the Pro hardware. Is there a comparable volume for the Pro 380? Does anyone have one or has anyone ever seen one? Thanks, Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 15 14:48:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU configuration Message-ID: OK, having chanted the proper incantations, and performed the various rites in the correct sequence I now have my RT-11 system as close to being back together with all the various programs as I'm going to, until I get a chance to redo the Macro-11 exercises I lost. Actually I've got a little more than I had as I added a few games :^) Now that I've got it back running V5.4 I noticed something interesting, under V5.3 when you do a 'SHOW DEV' in the section for DU it lists the how DU0: through DU7: are configured. This is very nice when you've got partitions ranging across a couple disks. However, this feature seems to be missing under V5.4, is there any way to get this information, or do I simply need to write it down? Now that I've got two "Backup" Hard Drives made, and most of the stuff backed up on a RL02, I've got to get a "Working" Hard Drive built so I can get back to the project of trying to get TCP/IP configured :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Aug 15 14:53:07 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: <653a350b.24e84b8e@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Aug 15, 1999 12:57:50 pm" Message-ID: <199908151953.PAA02905@pechter.dyndns.org> > In a message dated 8/15/99 12:42:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > fauradon@mn.mediaone.net writes: > > > I'd like to have TCP/IP or any other way to talk to the *indows network. > > Thanks > > Francois > > the only way i know is you have to have a machine running win nt since it can > speak appletalk from the mac. > Samba and netatalk work fine here with Free/Net/OpenBSD. I believe they also are available for OS/2 now. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 15 14:55:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU configuration Message-ID: <990815155548.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> >Now that I've got it back running V5.4 I noticed something interesting, >under V5.3 when you do a 'SHOW DEV' in the section for DU it lists the how >DU0: through DU7: are configured. This is very nice when you've got >partitions ranging across a couple disks. However, this feature seems to >be missing under V5.4, is there any way to get this information, or do I >simply need to write it down? Do a "SHOW DEV:DU" and you'll see it - for example, on my 5.7 system: .show dev:du Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- --------- DU Resident 172150 154 150 144 140 DU0: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 0, PART = 0 DU1: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 1, PART = 0 DU2: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 2, PART = 0 DU3: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 0 DU4: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 0 DU5: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 5, PART = 0 DU6: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 6, PART = 0 DU7: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 7, PART = 0 D10: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 8, PART = 0 D11: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 9, PART = 0 D12: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 10, PART = 0 D13: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 11, PART = 0 D14: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 12, PART = 0 D15: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 13, PART = 0 D16: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 14, PART = 0 D17: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 15, PART = 0 D20: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 16, PART = 0 D21: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 17, PART = 0 D22: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 18, PART = 0 D23: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 19, PART = 0 D24: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 20, PART = 0 D25: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 21, PART = 0 D26: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 22, PART = 0 D27: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 23, PART = 0 D30: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 0 D31: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 1 D32: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 2 D33: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 3 D34: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 4 D35: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 5 D36: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 6 D37: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 3, PART = 7 D40: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 0 D41: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 1 D42: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 2 D43: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 3 D44: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 4 D45: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 5 D46: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 6 D47: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 9 D50: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 8 D51: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 9 D52: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 10 D53: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 43, PART = 0 D54: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 44, PART = 0 D55: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 45, PART = 0 D56: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 46, PART = 0 D57: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 47, PART = 0 D60: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 0 D61: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 5, PART = 0 D62: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 6, PART = 0 D63: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 7, PART = 0 D64: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 8, PART = 0 D65: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 9, PART = 0 D66: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 10, PART = 0 D67: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 11, PART = 0 D70: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 4, PART = 1 D71: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 5, PART = 1 D72: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 6, PART = 1 D73: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 7, PART = 1 D74: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 8, PART = 1 D75: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 9, PART = 1 D76: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 10, PART = 1 D77: is set PORT = 0, UNIT = 11, PART = 1 Another thing that helps with keeping tracks of large numbers of partitions is to assign descriptive Volume ID and owner fields to the partitions. For example: .init ld4:/volu LD4:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y Volume ID? junk Owner? me .dir/vol ld4: Volume ID: junk Owner : me 0 Files, 0 Blocks 1986 Free blocks Presumably, you'll find something more useful than "junk" and "me" to fill the fields in with :-) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Aug 15 15:11:21 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: DEC Pro Technical Manual Message-ID: <199908152011.AA23137@world.std.com> There is a later two-volume set which covers both the 350 and the 380... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 15 15:37:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: <37B7094F.F63E83FA@centuryinter.net> References: <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >> I missed the point and he's looking for a TCP stack, at which point I think >> the best bet for System 7.1 would be MacTCP. > > Ugh...misunderstood what he was asking...but didn't System 7 come with >TCP/IP >services? Hmmm, good question. Now that I think about it I think System 7.1 came with a pretty horrible one. Not sure about System 7.0 though. It was somewhere in the 7.5.x series that the current implementation was started, IIRC. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 15 15:41:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: RT-11 DU configuration In-Reply-To: <990815155548.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >Do a "SHOW DEV:DU" and you'll see it - for example, on my 5.7 system: Yep, that does the trick on my 5.4 system also. Cool, the problem was I left out the ':' when I tried before. >Another thing that helps with keeping tracks of large numbers >of partitions is to assign descriptive Volume ID and owner >fields to the partitions. For example: > >.init ld4:/volu >LD4:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >Volume ID? junk >Owner? me > >.dir/vol ld4: > > Volume ID: junk > Owner : me > > 0 Files, 0 Blocks > 1986 Free blocks Suddenly I'm glad I'm getting ready to set up the "Working" disk, and hadn't started yet! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Aug 15 15:47:16 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: (I'm ba-ack...) Problems with DW11-B... Message-ID: <13475739378.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Okay, situation as follows. I finally cleared some time to play with my toys again... The idea is, I have an 11/83, an RL02, and plenty of RAM. It runs 2.9BSD at the moment. I also have a DZ11 clone by Aziv (or something like that) in there, it works too. I got my hands on a RSTS 8 RL02 SAVRES tape (Found it in my scratch magtape pile! Can't believe I didn't see this before!) and wanna play with RSTS instead of 2.9BSD. So, the idea was, I have a tape drive and UNIBUS TS-type controller that both work, and a BA11-K. (It was the one on the 11/44, which, sadly, has died of mysterious marginality. It catches random bus errors and starts only about 1/4 of the time. Don't worry, I didn't pitch it - I plan on debugging it later.) Anyway, I wanted to hang the DW11-B between the 2 boxes (The 83 and the BA11), then use the TS tape and drive to back up BSD to a tape, and then try restoring this RSTS tape. If the RSTS tape dies then, all I have to do is get a minimal UNIX back on the RL02 and restore my tape. Too bad UNIX doesn't make self-booting backup tapes like VMS does... (Speaking of which, did any other OS do this?) Anyway, the problem is, when the DW11-B is installed in the 83,. the memory check diagnostic fails at address 0, and the MAP option on the crash screen only sees the addresses on the CPU card (So the DW11 is clobbering the bus.) Questions are: 1. Has anyone done this before? 2. Are DW11-Bs incompatible with Q22 backplanes? 3. Is there some obvious screw I'm missing? I'm using the quad-height end in the Qbus end, and the dual-height end in the UNIBUS end. I assume if I had them backwards, I'd get smoke... Also, the fuse in the dual-height end is good, I checked it. Help would be much appreciated! ------- From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 15 15:53:58 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: (message from William Donzelli on Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:34:44 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990815205358.2744.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Memory wasn't the only part of early computers that used special and somewhat > bizarre electron tubes. William Donzelli wrote: > The lights ("blinkenlights") on some early machines (and even a few not > so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT... Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common incandescent bulbs. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 15 16:06:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron Message-ID: <990815170637.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Eric Smith wrote: >William Donzelli wrote: >> The lights ("blinkenlights") on some early machines (and even a few not >> so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT... > >Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common >incandescent bulbs. I've seen scientific and computer equipment from the 60's and 70's using a variety of "tubes" as indicator devices, everything from simple neon bulbs to decatron counters and storage CRT's. One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube" (they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic functions. Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Is a voltage regulator tube (like the venerable OA2) called a "valve"? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Aug 15 12:19:29 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets) In-Reply-To: References: <01B7D7441E49D211965A0008C7FAD3AE0240E0FA@SYD-MSG-01> Message-ID: <199908152122.RAA01010@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Aug 99 at 9:56, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Andrew McLaren wrote: > > > Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? > > > > I have a vast array of first-hand observances which complement my own > > intuitive feeling, that buggerising around with computers is best done > > around midnight to 2am. The best tech-heads are always "non compis mentis" > > before midday. > > > > Why is that? One of the unsolved problems of Computing Science .... > > Because you generally don't get annoyed by people walking up to you asking > questions at that time. You can get absorbed inbto what you are doing > without being interrupted and losing your train of thought every time > someone bugs you. > > Its a time when you can pretty much be anti-social and get away with it > for the most part. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In earlier times, it was also easier to access the net and BBSs when most people were in bed. I can remember after many repeated attemps to access the provider during peak periods, I would give up in frustration and log-in after midnight. Some of the more popular BBSs would supply statistics to show the best time to be able to access them. And of course it would also tie up your own phone-line. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Aug 15 12:19:29 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: <199908151837.AA00916@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199908152122.RAA01016@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Aug 99 at 14:37, Allison J Parent wrote: > > You kidding? Those phosphors are quite sensitive to light at the right > wavelength. > > Everyone forgets a plumbicon (and predecessors) used a phosphor coated > target that the image impinged on and then was scanned with a electron > beam with the incident current sensed using an internal collector grid. > Maybe you had to work with the old mono camaras with a tube in it rather > than a CCD. > > Allison > How did the old light-pens or the light-gun with Atari 8-bits work ? Weren't they related to this sensitivity of the CRT ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From mikeford at netwiz.net Sun Aug 15 16:01:27 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets) In-Reply-To: <01B7D7441E49D211965A0008C7FAD3AE0240E0FA@SYD-MSG-01> Message-ID: >Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? It isn't when you start, its when you end. ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 16:56:06 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: check it out References: <199908152122.RAA01016@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <99081517584203.22629@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > How did the old light-pens or the light-gun with Atari 8-bits work ? >Weren't they related to this sensitivity of the CRT ? No, they worked the other way around. There was a light-sensing device (photodiode, phototransistor, etc) in the pen or gun. The pen/gun control circuitry "knows" where the dot from the CRT's electron gun is at any given time...so when pressed against (fired at) the screen, during the next scan of the screen the pen/gun control circuitry waited until it "saw" that the sensor had been illuminated. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 14:12:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: <199908151837.AA00916@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 15, 99 02:37:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1055 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/825c4771/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 14:16:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <199908151837.AA01055@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 15, 99 02:37:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/82288771/attachment.ksh From sms at antinode.org Sun Aug 15 17:01:37 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron Message-ID: <99081517013721@antinode.org> From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com) > Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just an > anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Have you heard of a check valve? > Is a voltage regulator tube (like the venerable OA2) called a "valve"? No doubt it's _called_ one (where electron tubes are called valves). I can cite several worse misnomers in popular use. On the subject of unusual display devices, as I recall, the Univac 422, a training computer (transistors, 512 15-bit words of core memory, with paper tape and (modified) Remington Rand typewriter for I/O) from the 1960's, used blue-green vacuum fluorescent indicators on its front panel, to display register contents. Not digital displays in the modern sense, they were just blue-green lamps. I assume that they were chosen for their ability to be controlled by transistors which were unable to cope with the voltages of neon glow lamps or the current of incandescent lamps. I never saw them on anything else. I don't doubt that they had better long-term reliability than the SCR-driven incandescent lamps in the console display of the IBM 1130 CPU. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 17:19:53 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron References: Message-ID: <99081518204504.22629@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >There was a thing in the UK called a DM160. The 'D' indicated a 1.5V heater, >the 'M' meant is was an indicating tube (the same code is used for >'magic eye' tuning indicators) and the '6' meant it was a sub-miniature >device. > >This was a small valve about 30mm long and 6mm in diameter. It had 4 >external connections - the 2 ends of the filament, the anode (plate), and >the control grid. > >If you applied 1.4V to the filament and about 30V to the anode, you got a >nice blue/green glow. Applying about -3V bias to the grid turned it off. > >They were used as 'blikenlights' on computers/paper tape stuff over here. >The 3V change in bias interfaced easily to transistorised logic, they >were pretty reliable, and quite bright. This sounds like an ancestor of the modern vacuum-fluorescent display. Similar in theory, I think, yes? -Dave McGuire From donm at cts.com Sun Aug 15 17:28:28 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <990815170637.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > >William Donzelli wrote: > >> The lights ("blinkenlights") on some early machines (and even a few not > >> so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT... > > > >Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common > >incandescent bulbs. > > I've seen scientific and computer equipment from the 60's and 70's using > a variety of "tubes" as indicator devices, everything from simple neon > bulbs to decatron counters and storage CRT's. > > One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube" > (they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid > like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of > storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic > functions. > > Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just > an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Well, it functions like a check valve. > Is a voltage regulator tube (like > the venerable OA2) called a "valve"? I cannot think of a good analogy for that one, unless it would be a pressure relief valve. - don > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 15 17:30:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron Message-ID: <990815183001.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> >> Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just an >> anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? > Have you heard of a check valve? I've also heard of a won't gate and have a copy here of the data sheet for a write-only-memory :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 17:19:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <990815170637.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 15, 99 05:06:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/255b827d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 17:09:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: <199908152122.RAA01016@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Aug 15, 99 05:19:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/4b5a8f84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 17:15:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: (I'm ba-ack...) Problems with DW11-B... In-Reply-To: <13475739378.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Aug 15, 99 01:47:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1416 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/713f7c33/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 17:40:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <99081517013721@antinode.org> from "sms@antinode.org" at Aug 15, 99 05:01:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/cb166fc0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 17:42:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <99081518204504.22629@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 15, 99 06:19:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990815/a1dbf85b/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 15 19:12:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: (I'm ba-ack...) Problems with DW11-B... In-Reply-To: References: <13475739378.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Aug 15, 99 01:47:16 pm Message-ID: >> 1. Has anyone done this before? > >I belive you're attempting the impossible. The DW11-B allows you to hang >Q-bus peripherals off a Unibus CPU, and not the reverse. From the >printset it appears that the arbiter has to be on the Unibus side, and >that the Q-bus side appears to be the arbiter on the Q-bus. Sounds like what is needed is an Able QNInverter maybe. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Aug 15 20:11:18 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: References: <37B7094F.F63E83FA@centuryinter.net> <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: Ahh... I like Macs. I even have a IIvx, but it needs a new motherboard. The Macintosh Asante drivers are at http://www.asante.com/support/s_c1.html. For TCP/IP, you'll need MacTCP, ftp://ftp.apple.com/developer/Development_Kits/MacTCP.sit.hqx This file is large(around 2MB), but it has all the latest stuff(MacTCP 2.0.6 and a bunch of other files). And of course the ethernet support from the 7.1 insaller. And other stuff that I don't know about if you need to have access to some wierd thing(hehe... I've got a copy of Apple's 5250 gateway software! All it wants is its own neworked Mac II and an AS/400 to connect to). Dial-up connections require even more software, FreePPP is probably the best recent software for use with MacTCP. All this stuff does OK with a IIvx(helps to upgrade to a bigger hard drive than the original 40/80MB), but older machines like an SE or Classic, basically anything with less than a 68030, and it starts to get bogged down. Then it's time to start minimizing... That gets fun. I remember when the IIvx was my internet machine. 80MB hard drives fill up FAST. Hell, it was full before I got to the internet, one of the local BBS's had TONS of stuff to download. But like the old computers we love, old BBS's go down... DJO was THE best(and I think pretty close to the oldest) BBS in Portland. Not much left now, everyone is busy on the internet. I wonder what happened to those old C64/TI-99 systems. Guess I'll go fire up my Apple II(love those old 300bps modems). I really should unsubscribe, I get too depressed thinking about old computers. At least until I go to the basement and start digging around inside them again. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 15 19:25:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: check it out Message-ID: <199908160025.AA20519@world.std.com> < How did the old light-pens or the light-gun with Atari 8-bits work ? from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Aug 15, 99 01:47:16 pm Message-ID: <37B75DA9.1EA8@swbell.net> DEC uVAX stuff at Houston scraper. Could someone expand on these model numbers? Regards, Mitch Wright DEC equipment for sale ********************* MicroVax 2 **************** 1-630QY-A2 1-610QS-XZ 1-630QY-AZ 1-H3178-00 630QB-A2 1-3100-40 2-3100 DV-31CT1-A & DV-31ETA-A-AO1 DEC ******** 1-RD54-FA 1-TK507-6A 1-TK502-FA 1-DH-625N6-A 1-RRD-40 1-H3104 1-DF-224-AA 1-RRD-42-DA 2-H3175 Make all offer to: ****************** TMP Computer & Salvage Owner: Thomas McPike 2907 Fannin Suite A Houston,Texas 77002 Voice:713-759-1730 Fax:713-728-2407 From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Aug 15 19:49:24 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <990815170637.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990815202631.00a78890@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:06 PM 8/15/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said something like: >Eric Smith wrote: >>William Donzelli wrote: >>> The lights ("blinkenlights") on some early machines (and even a few not >>> so early machines) were tiny tubes, as well. A bit more simple than a CRT... >> >>Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common >>incandescent bulbs. > >I've seen scientific and computer equipment from the 60's and 70's using >a variety of "tubes" as indicator devices, everything from simple neon >bulbs to decatron counters and storage CRT's. > >One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube" >(they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid >like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of >storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic >functions. > >Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just >an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Is a voltage regulator tube (like >the venerable OA2) called a "valve"? Well, I'm not a 'UKer' but just a humble electronic communications historian (like Bill Donzelli, who also knows this answer) who has a strong interest in tube (valve) history. Back in 1908, Sir John Ambrose Fleming, an English electrical engineer, patented the Thermionic Valve. It was based on work he began in 1904 investigating the "Edison Effect", of which he and Edison had discovered earlier in 1889 in USA, in order to make a rectifying valve. This valve is a two element diode. On the other hand, Lee deForest patented the Audion which is a three element valve, or "tube" in USA terms, in 1906. Controversy had always surrounded DeForest, however he held fast to his contention that he had developed the Audion *independantly* with regard to Fleming's work begun earlier. Yes, a two element vacuum thermionic diode can therefore be called a "valve". Ya got a good question about the 0A2 and its kindred though Tim. I would imagine by conventional wisdom it also would also be called a valve in the UK. Tony? Know the usual expression for VR tubes? (VR valves?) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From a2k at one.net Sun Aug 15 19:53:33 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets) In-Reply-To: <199908152122.RAA01010@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: > In earlier times, it was also easier to access the net and BBSs when most > people were in bed. I can remember after many repeated attemps to access the > provider during peak periods, I would give up in frustration and log-in after > midnight. Some of the more popular BBSs would supply statistics to show the > best time to be able to access them. And of course it would also tie up your > own phone-line. In my oppinion, better times, but that's just me. I found that the best time for logging into my favourite BBSs (The Bad Element II, Late Nite BBS, Liberty Line, etc) was before I left for school in the morning (around 6:45). Kevin From a2k at one.net Sun Aug 15 19:55:53 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If you applied 1.4V to the filament and about 30V to the anode, you got a > nice blue/green glow. Applying about -3V bias to the grid turned it off. > -tony Neat! Any idea where I could get one in the US? Thanks, Kevin From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Aug 15 19:57:31 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <990815183001.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990815205516.00a78180@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:30 PM 8/15/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said something like: >>> Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just an >>> anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? > >> Have you heard of a check valve? > >I've also heard of a won't gate and have a copy here of the data sheet >for a write-only-memory :-). Was that the Signetics joke WOM data sheet from back in the late 70's? I got a copy of that around my files somewhere. What a hoot that was :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Aug 15 20:27:19 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: References: <990815170637.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990815210218.00a8ace0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:19 PM 8/15/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> One might argue that a neon bulb or a decatron isn't properly a "tube" >> (they certainly aren't "valves" because they don't have a control grid >> like a triode), but they are non-linear devices that are capable of >> storing (and displaying) state information and performing simple logic >> functions. >> >> Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just >> an anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? Is a voltage regulator tube (like >> the venerable OA2) called a "valve"? > >Hmmm... > >Rectifiers are called 'valves' (so we'd talk of a EZ81 valve or a 5U4 >valve). I guess you think of them like the one-way valve on a tyre :-). Indeed, or like a hose bib of which you would attach a garden hose or the device mounted on your bathtub either of which allow you to control the flow of water. Fleming evidently thought of his invention as a one-way flow controlling device, or *valve*, except electron flow was the medium controlled. Hence, my suspicion he chose the word valve based on that function his invention performed. Later, with a third element called a control grid which DeForest purportedly invented in conjunction with his Audion patent of 1906, one could then truly control the quantity of flow of electrons through that one-way device called a valve. To get this even _nearly_ on topic, the transistors in today's IC's are like "valves", so our computers have millions of little "valves" in them (how's that for a stretched topic? :) > >I think we'd probably call an OA2 a 'valve' as well, although talking >about 'stabiliser tubes' or 'cold cathode tubes' seems to be common usage >in UK books as well (as is 'stabiliser valves' and 'cold cathode valves'). > >We certainly talk about 'counting tubes' when refering to dekatrons, >trochatrons, etc. Never seen them called 'counting valves'. And CRTs are >certainly 'tubes' over here. Probably the USA expression "tube" was adopted to differentiate between a 'controlled' valve (diode, triode, tetrode, etc.) and these more recent thermionic emission devices you speak of. But I would have called a CRT a Cathode Ray Valve (CRV) because of its function. However, V. Zworykin had perfected in the USA that device which presents an image on a phosphor screen mounted on a glass envelope under vacuum which we all call the CRT. Hence the "T" for Tube in CRT. Interesting how the region in which an invention is made can affect the invention's name. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 15 21:35:47 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <19990815205358.2744.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yes, but those weren't particularly "bizarre". They were just common > incandescent bulbs. No, there really were little great grandsons of the 6E5. To quote from *Tube Lore*: 6977 [AKA DM160]; T1 submin. computer indicator triode, blue green glow, fil. 1.0 V @ 30mA; shows no light at Vg -8, full glow at 0 V (AX, MU, RCA, SY, TS) (8-12-57). T1 is the bulb size (tubular - 1/8 inch diameter). The "AX, ..." business means that known makers were Amperex, Mullard, RCA, Sylvania, and Tung Sol. The advantage to these is that they have very good life expectancy - probably in the 30 plus years range. Like other "eye tubes", the main failure one finds is contamination of the target, causing the brightness to decrease. The Packard Bell 250 uses them. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 15 21:41:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron Message-ID: <199908160241.AA27375@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Neat! Any idea where I could get one in the US? ETCO (remember them?) used to sell them for a penny a piece. Ten years ago. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 15 21:47:13 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <199908160241.AA27375@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Lest we for get the 2d21 tyratron and the larger cousins. Cold cathode > triodes mostly replaced with SCRs. I am in favor of forgetting 2D21s. I have a bunch NIB and can drag them to every hamfest in the world, yet never sell one. 2D21/5727, fresh from the factory! 2 for a buck! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Aug 15 22:16:44 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed References: <37B7094F.F63E83FA@centuryinter.net><001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <001701bee795$cb75f040$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Wow I didn't expect so many answers. Thanks. Some of you seem confused as to what I need, it's probably because I don't know myself and was very vague in the question. It seem like the information that John Rollins provided is a good stat for me to investigate. Someone also mentionned that 7.0 or 7.1 had TCP "built in", I must have missed that. Once again thanks all I'll keep you posted. Francois PS: I'm not interested in running NT, I have a bunch of *indows apps that don't like NT and I need to run them on a mostly dayly basis. From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Aug 15 21:03:47 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <19990815074502.32619.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990815210347.22b748aa@earthlink.net> At 07:45 AM 8/15/99 -0000, Eric wrote: >Does anyone know how RCA's Selectron memory tube worked? I've seen pictures >but no explanation. > It was an electrostatic memory tube with 256 bits as 2 16x8 arrays, one on each side of the cathode. X-Y grid wires could be addressed to form a beam (4 +potential wires, 2 X and 2 Y formed a window/electron lens). Beyond were electrically isolated targets. These, by biases to other electrodes, could be charged to 2 different potentials (170V) by the beam. The targets were shaped like eyelets so at the more negative potential, the read beam would be repelled, and at the positive potential, the beam would pass through to a faraday cage and anode where it was read out. There also was a fluorescent screen, maybe for visual readout or maybe for secondary emission amplification? -Dave ps, Cool idea Allison on a vacuum f. triode flip-flop/ readout. From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Mon Aug 16 00:00:38 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Old (relatively) Tandy 1000 w/bits & pieces (fwd) Message-ID: Here's someone with a Tandy 1000 they want to get rid of, located in the upper west side of Manhattan (New York)(. Please respoond to the original sender. Reply-to: Ollco@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:07:00 EDT From: Ollco@aol.com To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Old (relatively) Tandy 1000 w/bits & pieces We have an old computer that may have value other than holding down the end of the table. It's a Tandy 1000 w/cma monitor, manuals, etc. Lots of software Still working w/all of 256 K ram and 2 Epson printers, one a wide carriage for spread sheets. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Steve & Marci Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 16 04:08:58 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: References: <01B7D7441E49D211965A0008C7FAD3AE0240E0FA@SYD-MSG-01> Message-ID: >On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Andrew McLaren wrote: > >> Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? > >Because: > >1) Coffee takes time to work "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of java that the thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire a shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion." BTW I hate coffee, but drink fine tea by the gallon. From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 16 03:13:03 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >I just acquired a NIC for MAC, it's an "Assante MacCom+ II E" etheernet Asante is is just about the best company I know of. Lifetime warranty that they stand behind, even on ancient products, full web site with drivers and diagnostics, plus most of their cards work just fine with the Apple drivers that comes on most Apple OS releases. Cabling is normal ethernet, I'm not sure if that card needs a AUI adapter, but that is simple too. Software is simple too, $$$ commercial stuff like Dave to make the mac look like one of the old PC boys, or stick with internet tools and run web or ftp servers on the PC side. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Aug 16 09:10:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Double bit storage (was: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990815205516.00a78180@206.231.8.2> References: <990815183001.2020022f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199908161211.OAA00574@horus.mch.sni.de> > Upon the date 06:30 PM 8/15/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said > something like: > >>> Question for the UKer's: is a tube rectifier (no control grid, just an > >>> anode and a cathode) called a "valve"? > >> Have you heard of a check valve? > >I've also heard of a won't gate and have a copy here of the data sheet > >for a write-only-memory :-). > Was that the Signetics joke WOM data sheet from back in the late 70's? I > got a copy of that around my files somewhere. What a hoot that was :) Well, I guess it's a running gag - there are incarnations known in magazines throughout the 80s (like a kit in a mc (a german techie magazine back then) issue) or variations like the enhanced NUL device kit (to reduce the time needed to copy a file into NUL), or the WORN Disk drive (Write Once Read Never), as a spin off from the development of the WORM. There are also connected technological break thrus like the half bit and quater bit storage (or the double bit cell). Over here its a must in some magazines to offer a special extra serious story in their April issue. AFAIK this tradition was coined by mc in 1981 with a small notice about a Basic programm where they didn't know the function ... Thousens of people did key it in just to be sent into fools day ... Starting from this day they did publish one 'story' every year - always well hidden. Later on c't took the stake (mc closed in the early 90s - there is no market for a real hardware orientaded full featured magazine - at least thats what they had been told). Shure some 'user' magazines also try until the mid 90s, but well, just a different league. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 16 07:18:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990815210347.22b748aa@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > There also was a fluorescent screen, maybe for visual readout or maybe for > secondary emission amplification? Thanx for the splaining. > -Dave > ps, Cool idea Allison on a vacuum f. triode flip-flop/ readout. IT was back if my Valve RF days and someone said they werent real tubes. later I would use three of them to make a superregen reciever with audio amplification that ran on a 1.5v and 30V battery. They were miniature in size ~.350 dia by 1.3 tall and low voltage filiment. I'd love to find some of the super submini tubes (display or not) again. Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Aug 16 08:20:42 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... Message-ID: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, plugging the Unibus end of the DW11 into the Q-bus didn't kill it, but plugging it into a Unibus slot BACKWARDS did. (What is it with me and absolutely stupid mistakes? Geez...) At least I think it did. On applying power, I got smoke, but no pop. The chip I crisped isn't marked with a U number, but, on the M8217 end, it's in the bottom row (Just above the bus pins), 4th from the left edge of the card (I'm holding the card with the component side facing me.) The chip has a bad smell and is slightly discolored. All the others look OK. The chip was also very hot when I cut the power and yanked the card out. I was too busy trying to keep the cat from climbing inside the box to pay attention to the card. Next time I shut the door. Assuming there IS a next time. If I can't revive this card, or find a Unibus RL02 controller in 4 days, this project dies. (I can't have the large toys here after Friday. I can only have what fits under my bed, which is the 83 and it's RL02. So anyway, the chip is marked as follows: 915 DS8641N There is no vendor ID, just a little mark like 2 lightning bolts in paralell (Like a jagged = sign). So, the questions now are... 1. What's this chip, and what does it do? 2. Can I replace it, or am I just screwed? 3. Is there a way that with only a voltmeter (I don't have and can't afford a scope) to verify that the chip's dead? (I'm overly optimistic too...) 4. What stupid mistake am I gonna make next? My bets are that the tape drive will be dead for some reason and I stomp on the RSTS tape, or get halfway thru the restore, hit a bad block on the tape, and end up with an unusable drive. Failing that, I'll either crash the RL02 (I only have one pack) or find a way to nuke the 83 and the 34A at the same time. (For refrence, I went and got a PDP-11/34A to use as the UNIBUS end of this.) And yes, I know I misspelled parallel, I'm just too lazy to fix it. ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 16 08:53:53 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:48 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... In-Reply-To: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: > 915 > DS8641N National semiconductor 8641, DEC part. Unfied bus tranceiver if my memory is working. > 2. Can I replace it, or am I just screwed? You'll have to get it off an old board that is junked. > 3. Is there a way that with only a voltmeter (I don't have and can't > afford a scope) to verify that the chip's dead? (I'm overly > optimistic too...) It's dead, replace it. whats scary is that they are likely others that havent smoked yet. Some one else more expereinced with unibus will have to comment but you likely have cookd a fair number of those on that group of bus lines. > 4. What stupid mistake am I gonna make next? > My bets are that the tape drive will be dead for some reason > and I stomp on the RSTS tape, or get halfway thru the restore, > hit a bad block on the tape, and end up with an unusable drive. > Failing that, I'll either crash the RL02 (I only have one pack) > or find a way to nuke the 83 and the 34A at the same time. Hurrier you go the behinder you'll get. Allison From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Mon Aug 16 08:45:05 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Off-topic and all, I'm sorry I missed the original post on this. Getting up in the morning is a running joke with my friends and I... I do just fine as a morning person, if I don't go to bed the night before. Otherwise, if some pressing need has me getting up inhumanely early, I keep a caffeine pill and cup of coffee next to my bed at night. When the alarm rings, I pop the pill and chug-a-lug the tumbler of coffee. The caffeine jolt, combined with the horrific taste of stale coffee, usually gets me up within a half hour or so. I wonder what my morning routine would be like if amphetamines were reasonably safe and legal... My other (not always successful) plan is to turn on the shower and drag myself in, promptly sitting on the floor and falling asleep. After a half-hour or so, the water usually gets cold enough to wake me up. Although, I have probably brought myself close to hypothermia a few times when it doesn't... I have learned to *never* try sitting on the toilet first thing on a tired morning. I've lost many hours and had to massage out many a forehead red-mark from that particularly uncomfortable kind of sleep. On a fairly early morning (good caffeine buzz), Aaron On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Andrew McLaren wrote: > > > >> Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? > > > >Because: > > > >1) Coffee takes time to work > > "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. > It is by the beans of java that the thoughts acquire speed, > The hands acquire a shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. > It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion." > > BTW I hate coffee, but drink fine tea by the gallon. > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 16 10:17:26 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Beagle Bag (was Re: check it out) In-Reply-To: <990814110333.2020036e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990816101726.010d2130@vpwisfirewall> Looks like you haven't played Mysterious Rabbit yet: - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 16 10:21:00 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Drivers needed In-Reply-To: References: <37B6F3C5.ADF65C53@centuryinter.net> <001501bee73e$a03a0c60$1a87fea9@mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990816102100.014c5a50@vpwisfirewall> At 10:46 AM 8/15/99 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >As for Samba, how would that solve the problem? Is there a Mac server or >client? The best/cheapest solution is to have Linux box acting as a server >on your network running NFS, Netatalk, and Samba. Yes, share the same point as Netatalk and Samba, and you're sharing a filesystem between your Mac and PC. You're not seeing the Mac's native drives directly from the PC, or vice-versa, but it works pretty well. I also run NCSA Telnet on the Macs, it gives them a minimal 'ftp' client and server. I imagine there must be better alternatives by now, but they may have more recent OS requirements. >Alternatively if you've got a copy or can afford a copy, as mentioned you >can run WinNT Server. I was stupid enough to buy a copy (for learning >purposes, I don't run Windows at all), and was surprised how well it >performs as a Appletalk server. I did that for a while, using NTAS on a spare DEC Alpha machine. However, I ran into trouble once I tried to manipulate files with perfectly legal Mac names like "Doc 3/24/97", which were munged to something illegal under NTAS 4.0. The Apple sharing still worked, but no Windows box could touch those filenames. >What would make me happy is if you could still buy a NFS client for the >Mac. I'd like to have a good NFS client for my PowerMac and have search >high and low without finding any that are still for sale. All the >companies that made them seem to have been bought out and their products >discontinued :^( I still run the SOSS NFS server for my PC sometimes, and the NFS client on the Amiga. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 16 10:11:50 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990814075700.00979840@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990816101150.010d50d0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:49 PM 8/14/99 +0100, you wrote: > >Somebody once claimed on Usenet (alt.folklore.computers IIRC) that Woz >had used his monitor as a scanner. There were "scanners" from the Apple era that used the precise motion of a dot-matrix printer's head to position a photodetector... - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 16 11:17:05 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: check it out References: <3.0.5.32.19990816101150.010d50d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <9908161218020I.25578@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, John Foust wrote: >>Somebody once claimed on Usenet (alt.folklore.computers IIRC) that Woz >>had used his monitor as a scanner. > >There were "scanners" from the Apple era that used the precise >motion of a dot-matrix printer's head to position a photodetector... A-la ThunderScan...a buddy of mine had one on his 1st-generation Mac many, many years ago. It was neat...and quite effective! -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 16 11:40:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990816101150.010d50d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: > There were "scanners" from the Apple era that used the precise > motion of a dot-matrix printer's head to position a photodetector... I happen to have one. the scanning head replaces the ribbon and printhead and the printer provides the motion. Allison From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Aug 16 09:39:01 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.19990815210347.22b748aa@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990816093901.23c7f538@earthlink.net> Hi Allison and all, At 08:18 AM 8/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > >IT was back if my Valve RF days and someone said they werent real tubes. >later I would use three of them to make a superregen reciever with >audio amplification that ran on a 1.5v and 30V battery. They were >miniature in size ~.350 dia by 1.3 tall and low voltage filiment. > Fair Radio still has similar size ones on a calculator output board (12 displays, 9 segments+ each), US$3.00. I bought one, and haven't traced the circuit except all the filaments are in series. The "grid" appears to be the normal vacuum fluor. mesh, Some might be able to trace the circuit quickly, since there are duplicate circuits, but I'm not one. It has NEC ic's of the time: uPD10 and uPD16 in metal cans, uPD13 in a 14 pin DIP, and 2 others. Round epoxy transistors are the digit and segment drivers. >I'd love to find some of the super submini tubes (display or not) again. > >Allison -Dave From transit at primenet.com Mon Aug 16 12:03:10 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <199905292145.OAA04210@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ss at allegro.com Mon Aug 16 12:16:14 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Is ccauction@nut.net dead? Message-ID: <199908161716.KAA14773@bart.allegro.com> Hi, My last two attempts to email ccauction@nut.net have apparently failed because "nut.net" can't be found. Well, to be more exact, the MX record for nut.net doesn't seem to exist. nslookup nut.net gives: Non-authoritative answer: Name: nut.net Address: 209.114.81.2 But, nslookup -type=MX nut.net gives: Server: bart Address: 0.0.0.0 (timeout) A "whois" shows that nut.net's record was updated yesterday. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:31:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990815202631.00a78890@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 15, 99 08:49:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 490 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/0bd86d27/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:32:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Aug 15, 99 08:55:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/0ddc8907/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:34:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990815205516.00a78180@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 15, 99 08:57:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/e660a2c3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:40:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990815210218.00a8ace0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 15, 99 09:27:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/5616bcd4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:42:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <199908160241.AA27375@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 15, 99 10:41:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/bfac39b8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:57:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... In-Reply-To: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Aug 16, 99 06:20:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1302 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/ad04c27d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:58:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Double bit storage (was: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron) In-Reply-To: <199908161211.OAA00574@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 16, 99 02:11:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/642839ba/attachment.ksh From mark_k at iname.com Mon Aug 16 08:26:49 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Pet 8096 for trade in UK Message-ID: Hi, Moving to a smaller house forces me to get rid of my Pet 8096. This computer could do with a clean but worked fine the last time I tested it. Contact me if you may be interested in this. It needs to be picked up from Wiltshire, England. Regards, -- Mark From uiterwyk at eisers.com Mon Aug 16 13:53:28 1999 From: uiterwyk at eisers.com (Robert Uiterwyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Message-ID: <005401bee818$a0917920$05dceecd@RHU3.eisers.com> I am desperately looking to fill the last hole in my "machines that I have worked with" museum. An IBM 5100 - This machine used two 1/4 inch tape drives and had either Basic or APL (or both) in ROM. Inbtroduced in 1975 by IBM. Will trade old early hobbyist PC stuff (SWTP 6800, SOL-20, Osborne OCC-1) or pay money. Anyone out there willing to help me relive my youth? Robert Uiterwyk uiterwyk (at) eisers (dot) com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/23f11ec9/attachment.html From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Aug 16 14:20:57 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990815210218.00a8ace0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990816151810.00aa7730@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:40 PM 8/16/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> >We certainly talk about 'counting tubes' when refering to dekatrons, >> >trochatrons, etc. Never seen them called 'counting valves'. And CRTs are >> >certainly 'tubes' over here. >> >> Probably the USA expression "tube" was adopted to differentiate between a >> 'controlled' valve (diode, triode, tetrode, etc.) and these more recent > >Other things that are always 'tubes' in the UK : > >Photomultipliers >TV camera devices (vidicons, image orthicons, etc) >Geiger-Muller detectors > >> thermionic emission devices you speak of. But I would have called a CRT a >> Cathode Ray Valve (CRV) because of its function. However, V. Zworykin had >> perfected in the USA that device which presents an image on a phosphor >> screen mounted on a glass envelope under vacuum which we all call the CRT. > >Except you could argue that was a development of work done by Braun >(Germany) which itself came from work done by J. J. Thompson (England). There's no arguement needed. Recall I used the word "perfected". > >Incidentally, some old books (American) on radio refer to triodes as >'Audion Bulbs'. Those must be books dating before, say, 1915 or so. Or written in 1930 by a then-oldtimer who doesn't like change :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 16 14:23:17 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... In-Reply-To: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <19990816192317.8220.qmail@brouhaha.com> > DS8641N > > There is no vendor ID, just a little mark like 2 lightning bolts in paralell > (Like a jagged = sign). So, the questions now are... > > 1. What's this chip, and what does it do? > 2. Can I replace it, or am I just screwed? National Semiconductor Quad Unified Bus Transceiver. Commonly used as a Unibus transceiver. Still in production. National lists budgetary pricing for quantity 1K at $1.15, which means you'll probably pay less than $4 for a single. http://www.national.com/pf/DS/DS8641.html I was surprised to find that DigiKey apparently does not stock it. > 3. Is there a way that with only a voltmeter (I don't have and can't > afford a scope) to verify that the chip's dead? (I'm overly > optimistic too...) It's dead. > 4. What stupid mistake am I gonna make next? Whatever mistake you're not expecting to make. Remember the Ultimate Law: "If something could have gone wrong but didn't, it would ultimately have been better if it had." Alternatively stated, "If Murphy's Law can go wrong it will." And remember, Murphy was an optimist. From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 16 13:31:16 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >BTW I hate coffee, but drink fine tea by the gallon. Amen to that! --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From bill at chipware.com Mon Aug 16 14:37:55 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bee81e$d68584d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html Fortunately, the article does not use that horrid phrase: "Software Program" AAARRRGGG!!! Why don't we get in the automobile car and drive ride to the financial institution bank. There we can get some cash currency from the ATM machine. I may have to transfer send some money funds to my IRA account. After that we can go to the movie theater cinema and purchase buy some admission tickets. After we see the movie production, we can go to a restaurant bistro and eat consume some dinner food. We could get a nice container bottle of wine beverage. Sorry to rant, but I'm in a bad mood. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Aug 16 14:48:36 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... References: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> <19990816192317.8220.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <014d01bee820$589b41c0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 1:23 PM Subject: Re: Murphy's law is in full effect... > National Semiconductor Quad Unified Bus Transceiver. Commonly used > as a Unibus transceiver. Still in production. National lists budgetary > pricing for quantity 1K at $1.15, which means you'll probably pay less > than $4 for a single. > > http://www.national.com/pf/DS/DS8641.html > I was surprised to find that DigiKey apparently does not stock it. But they list the DS8838, so you should check, if this one works for you. (somekind a brother of the ds8641, only faster) cheers, emanuel From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 16 14:51:27 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: In a message dated 8/16/99 3:34:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bill@chipware.com writes: > "Software Program" > > AAARRRGGG!!! > > Why don't we get in the automobile car and drive ride to the > financial institution bank. There we can get some cash currency > from the ATM machine. I may have to transfer send some money funds > to my IRA account. After that we can go to the movie theater cinema > and purchase buy some admission tickets. After we see the movie > production, we can go to a restaurant bistro and eat consume some > dinner food. We could get a nice container bottle of wine beverage. > > Sorry to rant, but I'm in a bad mood. hey, at least it was good for a laugh... D.B. Young Team OS/2 -->this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 16 16:08:47 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Domain Ring card, what is it? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990816160847.3b2ff812@mailhost.intellistar.net> I pulled this card out of a PC, it looks like some kind of LAN card but I've never seen one like it. Can anyone tell me more about it? It's a full length card that plugs into a 16 bit ISA slot. It has two large ICs on it. One is markled "APOLLO004329" "TC17GO42AT". The other says "L1A3015 015935-0001" "BICAT 1". One th eback is a connector about the same size as a DB-15 but it has a large contacts at each end and 5 regular size contacts in the center. The large contacts looks like the same ones that are used in the 13W3 cable for a Sun monitor. Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 16 14:58:11 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Domain Ring card, what is it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990816160847.3b2ff812@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:08:47) References: <3.0.1.16.19990816160847.3b2ff812@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990816195811.8452.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe Rigdon asks: > I pulled this card out of a PC, it looks like some kind of LAN card but I've > never seen one like it. Can anyone tell me more about it? It's a full length It's a NIC for the proprietary network used by Apollo on their workstations. They used a token ring protocol, but it isn't "Token Ring". From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 15:02:17 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... Message-ID: <19990816200217.2262.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > > DS8641N > > > > There is no vendor ID, just a little mark like 2 lightning bolts in > paralell > > (Like a jagged = sign). So, the questions now are... > > > > 1. What's this chip, and what does it do? > > 2. Can I replace it, or am I just screwed? > > National Semiconductor Quad Unified Bus Transceiver. Commonly used > as a Unibus transceiver. Still in production. National lists budgetary > pricing for quantity 1K at $1.15, which means you'll probably pay less > than $4 for a single. > > http://www.national.com/pf/DS/DS8641.html > > I was surprised to find that DigiKey apparently does not stock it. I have several tubes of them. Make offer. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Aug 16 16:12:43 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Is ccauction@nut.net dead? References: <199908161716.KAA14773@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: <37B87ECB.A1B8C95B@rain.org> ss@allegro.com wrote: > > My last two attempts to email ccauction@nut.net have apparently > failed because "nut.net" can't be found. > Well, to be more exact, the MX record for nut.net doesn't seem to exist. I just fired off a test message and it came through just fine. You might try a traceroute and see if there is a connection problem between your location and nut.net. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 16:30:50 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990816151810.00aa7730@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: > There's no arguement needed. Recall I used the word "perfected". Apparently, Braun knew these things were useful, but they probably never left the lab. > Those must be books dating before, say, 1915 or so. Or written in 1930 by a > then-oldtimer who doesn't like change :) Or Lee DeForest himself. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 15:24:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Domain Ring card, what is it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990816160847.3b2ff812@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Aug 16, 99 04:08:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/79282b55/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 15:26:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Williams Tube memory, Selectron question, and Charactron In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990816151810.00aa7730@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 16, 99 03:20:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1100 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/b457eedf/attachment.ksh From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 16 18:53:48 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) References: Message-ID: <37B8A48C.116@bellsouth.net> To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html > From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Aug 16 17:51:15 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: RT-11 ARGH! References: <199908131541.IAA25283@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <37B895E3.AD4D45AC@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > > If it was built with MUB.COM, yes, it is bootable. > Thank Goodness! Jerome Fine replies: Is that just the requirement to copy certain files onto the TK50 tape in a certain order? > > I have to admit that I'm a bit unclear on what the problem is that > > you're trying to solve, much less what you're trying to do to overcome > > the difficulties that you're throwing in your own path :-). > I'm trying to move my system onto better disks. Plus, I'd managed to pretty > much trash my RT-11 system a few months ago, when I last had time to work on > it. Then add in the fact that my system is such a mutant beast (as an > example the HD controller it boots off of isn't the one it is using for > disks) that I've never managed to get floppies working on it and you've got > a real mess. Do you have any old RQDX1,2,3 controllers and an RX50? On the BA23 box, the I/O distribution panel is standard. In general, I have an RQDX2 with an RX50 on a system that has s Sigma RQD11-EC. If the RX50 does not have a floppy, the boot ROM tries 160334 for the controller CSR and boots from there. > The TK-50 question is a result of my having built a V5.4 distribution tape to > avoid some of these problems, plus having another tape with at least a > partial backup. This was a nightmare to get setup the first time so I'm > trying to avoid some of that by recovering stuff off of tape, as opposed to > jumping through the same hoops I did last time. If you can set-up a system with an RX50, that should solve the problem of having a minimum RT-11 set of files that you can always boot from. > On the other hand now that I'm thinking clearer than I was last night I've > realized that if I can figure out which of the 4 HD's sitting in a pile has > RT-11 on it, I should probably just hook it up, and SYSGEN in that > controller. Which should give me the added benifit of being able to back > the system up to the old Hard Drive when everything is sorted out. Don't wait to back it up - do the backup ASAP!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Aug 16 14:18:58 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199908162313.TAA06653@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Max Eskin > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: late nights and caffeine > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >BTW I hate coffee, but drink fine tea by the gallon. I use regular tea or orange proroke (sp?) brewed almost strong, milk and bit too much sugar in tall mug in cold weather. For either way, I drink COLA straight from can or glass bottles, not those generic pops or pepsi, and any plastic containers that soft drinks comes in, ick! Jolt have no effect on mine and tastes bit different from COLA that I preferred. > Amen to that! > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) BTW, once my eyes open, I'm awake already then get up and act like normal person without needing sim first thing in the morning. But getting to sleep is different matter for me except I have to keep my number of sleep hours at not more than 7 hours regularly to help me to sleep easily. Wizard PS get some certain food in your bodies to help to give you energy in the morning and afternoon. Especially that is easy to digest. Some people like me have bit hard time digesting greasy foods and certain ones like eggs, some foods etc at certain time of day or on uncooperative sctomach. From at258 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 18:20:41 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I have one too, although I've never set it up to use. On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > There were "scanners" from the Apple era that used the precise > > motion of a dot-matrix printer's head to position a photodetector... > > I happen to have one. the scanning head replaces the ribbon and printhead > and the printer provides the motion. > > Allison > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 18:33:41 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon and India. On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >BTW I hate coffee, but drink fine tea by the gallon. > > Amen to that! > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 16 18:39:18 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: RT-11 ARGH! Message-ID: <990816193918.20200470@trailing-edge.com> >> > If it was built with MUB.COM, yes, it is bootable. >> Thank Goodness! > >Jerome Fine replies: > >Is that just the requirement to copy certain files onto the TK50 >tape in a certain order? No, it also needs the appropriate boot block written to tape (by, for example, the $Ini/Que/Vol/File:Bin:MBOOT.BOT Kit: line in MUB.COM). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 18:40:58 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: KSR In-Reply-To: <37B895E3.AD4D45AC@idirect.com> Message-ID: We have a Texas Instruments 820KSR paper terminal if anyone is interested. Pay shipping, and make a donation if you like. backplane and power supply, DEC ca 1972, in case. Possibly PDP11/10? Anyone interested? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 16 18:43:49 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... References: <19990816200217.2262.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99081619454000.28768@phaduka.neurotica.com> [Re: DS8641 bus driver chips] On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, you wrote: >I have several tubes of them. Make offer. Hey there...I realize you probably hadn't intended to make a general offer, but I sure could use a tube of those...just one...$45.00+shipping? Interested? -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 16 18:47:03 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Murphy's law is in full effect... References: <99081619454000.28768@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <99081619482401.28768@phaduka.neurotica.com> AHEM. This obviously wasn't intended for the list. Damned reply-to headers. Sorry for the noise. -Dave McGuire On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: >[Re: DS8641 bus driver chips] > >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, you wrote: >>I have several tubes of them. Make offer. > > Hey there...I realize you probably hadn't intended to make a general offer, >but I sure could use a tube of those...just one...$45.00+shipping? Interested? > > > -Dave McGuire From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Aug 16 18:29:49 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: New IMSAI available in October Message-ID: <00cf01bee843$547ec6c0$e992fea9@office1> Hello, all: Todd Fischer announced the IMSAI 8080 Series Two today. See http://www.imsai.net Looks interesting. Expensive for no cards, but interesting. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 19:17:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <37B8A48C.116@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, JAMES WEBSTER wrote: > To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html Full of what, and in what way? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 16 20:54:48 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) References: Message-ID: <37B8C0E8.41FF@bellsouth.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, JAMES WEBSTER wrote: > > > To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html > > Full of what, and in what way? > Read about the last 2 paragraphs. Jim Webster From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 16 18:46:23 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon >and India. Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From gregorym at cadvision.com Mon Aug 16 20:07:08 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <002201bee84c$e8aa8380$fd38fea9@gregorym> -----Original Message----- From: JAMES WEBSTER To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, JAMES WEBSTER wrote: >> >> > To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. >> > >> > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html >> >> Full of what, and in what way? >> > >Read about the last 2 paragraphs. >Jim Webster > I read the whole article, and I don't see anything too objectionable there. No major factual errors, a balanced point of view ... what exactly do you object to? Mark. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 20:25:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <37B8C0E8.41FF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, JAMES WEBSTER wrote: > Read about the last 2 paragraphs. Here's the last four paragraphs: There's also something called the Software Museum on a personal home page in Amsterdam, but it just catalogues the names of disk contents and doesn't provide the programs themselves. You'll need to be a hard-core fan of nostalgia to enjoy it. Programs include IBM PC DOS 1.10, Microsoft Multiplan 1.2 and Microsoft Word 1.1. A couple of years ago, Sun Microsystems Inc. launched a "project rescue" to issue software that would help keep 486 machines up to speed on the Web. The idea was to sell speedy Java engines that could work on DOS without Windows 3.1. But there appears to be little evidence of it today on Sun's mammoth Web site. There are also a few bricks-and-mortar retail stores that sell out-of-print software; B&R Computer Services in San Diego is often mentioned for Macs. Community computer user groups also tend to have a selection. It's real easy to get teary-eyed over this old stuff. But at the same time, we shouldn't forget that a lot of programs have become historical footnotes for a good reason -- they were dogs. If you go looking for them, be discriminating. --- I still don't see what you're objecting to. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 16 20:35:28 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990816213528.009e6e10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Max Eskin may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >>I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon >>and India. > >Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from >using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! Well, if you call drowning a haybale in boiling water 'convenient' -- ;-) Personally, give me a nice cup of good, strong, Earl Grey... with just a touch of _dark brown_ sugar... it gets rid of the acid-y taste without adding nearly so much of a sweet flavor. Just don't let the water get *cold* with the tea-bag still in - it will get a lot more bitter. Haven't tested 'em all, but Bigelow is my preferred brand. And now back to our regularly scheduled listserv. :-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From a2k at one.net Mon Aug 16 20:49:26 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from > using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! > TRASH!?!?! I *love* lipton and two heaping spoons of Coffeemate creamer. I prefer that over coffee when I have time in the morning, but if I'm trying to get outside in time for my ride to marching band, I just throw some coffee and creamer in a cup. Oh, and for iced tea, four bags of orange tea and four bags of Lipton... in a Mrs. Tea pot ;) > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > Kevin From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 16 20:02:55 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, LordTyran wrote: >TRASH!?!?! I *love* lipton and two heaping spoons of Coffeemate creamer. I >prefer that over coffee when I have time in the morning, but if I'm trying You should try loose tea. For one thing, I must say that green tea, either bagged or loose, is excellent, sometimes better than other colors. Lipton orange pekoe tea gets real boring, and it just doesn't have half the aroma of loose tea. Today, I dipped a ball full of indian tea into a cup of hot water, and the room smelled like I had a bouquet of flowers in there. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 21:13:18 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <37B8A48C.116@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: > To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. I do not see any problems with the article. If the last two paragraphs bother you (the bit about lots of old software being dogs), well, its true. A lot of the software for the older machines sucks. A lot of the older machines themselves suck, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Aug 16 21:16:47 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:49 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. Message-ID: <13476061510.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This SHOULD be on-topic, it DOES have a computer in it... Remember that Bell box I mentioned awhile ago? It turns out it's a Bell Dimension 400 PBX, and it's now mine. I got the console and boot tapes, and a mess of documentation. Some of it was inside the box, which wasn't too heavy (I was able to move it around (Up 5 floors! Cargo elevators are a good thing!) by myself, it's on casters.) The only bad things so far is the general state of disrepair of the unit - Some of the cards inside were dismounted, the modem inside had broken free and was boucing around, Also, the ceiling above it was crumbling, and so there's a bunch of white powder all over the top. From looking inside the front door though, it doesn't appear to have gotten inside. Oh, and the power plug is that odd round thing on PDP-11 power supplies, so I'll have to open it up and replace that. That shouldn't be TOO hard, unless I do something silly again, I really don't like playing around where line current is involved... So anyway, the usual 30 questions bit: 1. So, what can I do with this besides take up space? Can I plug this into the phone network? I plan on toting it to work and putting it to use there, where a PBX is desperately needed... Otherwise, I guess I could run it non-connected, but it'd be a waste. 2. Is this hard to program? I haven't had time to read thru all the manuals yet. I got 7 different manuals: A. Dimension 400 PBX task lists and index B. How to operate the Dimension attendant console (etc.) C. A small flip-type card listing all the feature codes... D. Dimension 400 PBX detailed level procedures. (500-659) E. Dimension 400 PBX detailed level procedures. (660-793) F. Customer order document. (I dunno what this is...) G. Schematic Drawings. (Don't worry, it's only block diagrams and general stuff, nothing really specific that I can see.) 3. Can I plug normal phones into this, or does it need special phones? I guess that's it. I'll learn a little more about it tomorrow when I fire it up... ------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 21:18:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, LordTyran wrote: > >TRASH!?!?! I *love* lipton and two heaping spoons of Coffeemate creamer. I > >prefer that over coffee when I have time in the morning, but if I'm trying > > You should try loose tea. For one thing, I must say that green tea, > either bagged or loose, is excellent, sometimes better than other colors. > Lipton orange pekoe tea gets real boring, and it just doesn't have half > the aroma of loose tea. Today, I dipped a ball full of indian tea into a > cup of hot water, and the room smelled like I had a bouquet of flowers in > there. In Peru, the tea of choice is Matte de Coca, or coca leaves (you need to chew it with lime to make it the "good stuff" :) You can get Matte de Coca tea packets, but some nicer restaurants (like the good vegetarian one down the street I would often patronize) gave you a steeping cup of coca leaves. I'd drink mine straight (no sugar) like I drink all my tea. I drank it almost every morning and sometimes during lunch and dinner. Matte de Coca, while obviously not caffeinated, did have special properties. Purportedly, it was good for alleviating altitude sickness (I was at ~11,500ft), good for your immune system, assisted digestion, alleviated fatigue, and had a few other benefits (this is what was printed on the tea packets :) I'd have to say it did live up to a lot of these claims after having drank it for the better part of a month. Too bad America has this silly aversion to coca leaves due to this obnoxious and fruitless drug war we've been unsuccessfully waging for the past 15 years or else we might be able to get some here. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 21:28:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: <13476061510.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > This SHOULD be on-topic, it DOES have a computer in it... > Remember that Bell box I mentioned awhile ago? It turns out it's a Bell > Dimension 400 PBX, and it's now mine. I got the console and boot tapes, Nice. > So anyway, the usual 30 questions bit: > > 1. So, what can I do with this besides take up space? > Can I plug this into the phone network? I plan on toting it to work > and putting it to use there, where a PBX is desperately needed... > Otherwise, I guess I could run it non-connected, but it'd be a waste. Install the sucker. I don't have direct experience with the Dimension (its an AT&T...er Lucent product, well actually back then it was still AT&T) but if you got the install manuals you can decipher it with enough time and eventually become a k-rad PBX hacker with your very own switch. Doing the wiring is relatively painless. Programming it is like learning a new operating system, but from what I know the Dimensions are fairly easy to configure, and have pretty nice features. > 2. Is this hard to program? I haven't had time to read thru all the > manuals yet. I got 7 different manuals: > > A. Dimension 400 PBX task lists and index ??? > B. How to operate the Dimension attendant console (etc.) You'll need this to know how to operate the main switchboard, provided you got it with the unit. > C. A small flip-type card listing all the feature codes... Good. This tells you how to access the features like three-way calling, call forwarding, call pickup, trunk access, etc. > D. Dimension 400 PBX detailed level procedures. (500-659) > E. Dimension 400 PBX detailed level procedures. (660-793) These are probably the installation and programming manuals. > F. Customer order document. (I dunno what this is...) Just an order form for ordering additional equipment (like phone sets, trunk cards, etc). > G. Schematic Drawings. (Don't worry, it's only block diagrams > and general stuff, nothing really specific that I can see.) Only useful if you're Tony Duell :) > 3. Can I plug normal phones into this, or does it need special phones? It depends. If you have analog station ports then yes, you can. If all you have in it are proprietary digital station ports then you have to get compatible proprietary phones for it. I can help you find some if this is the case. The manuals should have an equipment card reference section that will help you identify what line cards are in the system. > I guess that's it. I'll learn a little more about it tomorrow when I fire > it up... E-mail me if you want help. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 16 21:33:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: (message from Max Eskin on Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:02:55 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990817023316.10354.qmail@brouhaha.com> Max Eskin writes: > You should try loose tea. For one thing, I must say that green tea, > either bagged or loose, is excellent, sometimes better than other colors. For hot tea, sure. For iced tea, nothing beats Lipton. It's amazing. When I left home and went to college I tried absolutely everything, and simply couldn't find anything that made decent iced tea. Finally I called my grandmother, to ask what the secret was. I was totally astounded. In July, researchers announced the results of a study showing that black tea reduces the risk of stroke and heart disease by a huge percentage, apparently because it is high in flavonoids. (Red wine does this also.) Green tea reportedly doesn't have much of them, and herbal teas have none. A quick search doesn't reveal an online reference to the study (which I read about in the San Jose Mercury News on July 9), but here are a few articles on flavonoids: http://www.amni.com/reprints/flavonoids.html http://www.cstone.net/meditel/flavionoids.htm LordTyran wrote: > Oh, and for iced tea, four bags of orange tea and four bags of Lipton... > in a Mrs. Tea pot ;) I bought some sort of iced tea maker some years back, and was dissatisfied with it. My sister tells me that the secret is to ignore the instructions which claim that you should fill the pitcher with ice before making the tea. I'll have to see if I still have the thing in storage, and try it again. I haven't yet figured out how to work a PIC into my tea habit, though. Eric "will program for iced tea" Smith From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 16 20:39:26 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >In Peru, the tea of choice is Matte de Coca, or coca leaves (you need to >chew it with lime to make it the "good stuff" :) You can get Matte de So, this tea does not in fact have any of the effects of cocaine? >leaves. I'd drink mine straight (no sugar) like I drink all my tea. We are much alike :) >Too bad America has this silly aversion to coca leaves due to this >obnoxious and fruitless drug war we've been unsuccessfully waging for the >past 15 years or else we might be able to get some here. For one thing, were you allowed to take a bunch with you? Secondly, the drug war has been far from fruitless, I'm sure that proceeds from illegal drugs and their control have funded many an election company. The 'silly aversion' is, I think, a maturity issue. Just like many a kid can't resist a smirk when someone says 'penis', many an American can't resist thinking of drugs when they hear of the various plants from which these come. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Aug 16 21:43:41 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: check it out References: <3.0.5.32.19990814075700.00979840@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.5.32.19990816101150.010d50d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <007701bee85a$52310ec0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, 17 August 1999 12:41 Subject: Re: check it out > At 11:49 PM 8/14/99 +0100, you wrote: > > > >Somebody once claimed on Usenet (alt.folklore.computers IIRC) that Woz > >had used his monitor as a scanner. > > There were "scanners" from the Apple era that used the precise > motion of a dot-matrix printer's head to position a photodetector... Not as far back as that. There is still an attachment available for Canon BJC4310SP printers that does much the same thing. It replaces the print head. Not sure of the resolution etc, but ISTR that it does colour etc. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Aug 16 21:44:59 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13476066641.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Wanna be a K-Rad PBX hacker...] Hey, I don't mind. Time to go dig up my old copies of Phrack and such and see if there's any pits to fall into... Oh, and I thought it was Phreak, in this context... ^_^ (Speaking of which, if you haven't heard these before, there's some funny as hell recordings on www.wideweb.com/phonetrips. ESPECIALLY the Dom Tuffy stuff and the Salute to Operators. I cut those onto a tape so I can go impress the others at work. Seeing as the 1971-1976, I bet some of the practices mentoned in those publications would work...) ------- From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 16 20:48:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <19990817023316.10354.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 17 Aug 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >In July, researchers announced the results of a study showing that black tea >reduces the risk of stroke and heart disease by a huge percentage, apparently >because it is high in flavonoids. (Red wine does this also.) Green tea >reportedly doesn't have much of them, and herbal teas have none. A quick Of course, drinking a little of each gives the benefits of each, plus it keeps life interesting ;) --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 21:54:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >In Peru, the tea of choice is Matte de Coca, or coca leaves (you need to > >chew it with lime to make it the "good stuff" :) You can get Matte de > > So, this tea does not in fact have any of the effects of cocaine? Unfortunately, no. > >leaves. I'd drink mine straight (no sugar) like I drink all my tea. > > We are much alike :) Except I'm not a communist :) > For one thing, were you allowed to take a bunch with you? Secondly, the I could have taken home a box of the bagged tea but didn't. From what I hear, U.S. Customs would have been very unhappy with me had I tried to import coca leaves into the US. > aversion' is, I think, a maturity issue. Just like many a kid can't resist > a smirk when someone says 'penis', many an American can't resist thinking > of drugs when they hear of the various plants from which these come. Huh huh. You said "come". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From at258 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 22:03:53 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well...I plead guilty to the using the bags, but real tea, not the lemon and curried raspberry leaf type yuppie piss. I really ought to brew from scratch, but that just makes me drink more, and it can get strong enough to make Jolt look like lemonade. On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon > >and India. > > Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from > using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From a2k at one.net Mon Aug 16 22:05:03 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <19990817023316.10354.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I haven't yet figured out how to work a PIC into my tea habit, though. > > Eric "will program for iced tea" Smith > Ahh, I was waiting for someone to bring this up. As stupid/crazy/cool as it seems, there is a Linux-Coffeemaker-HOWTO. Tells you how to use an SCR or a relay to hook up your coffee makes to your parallel port, add a /dev/coffeemaker entry (basically a ln to /dev/parX) and add a cron daemon entry to make your coffee each morning. Scary, eh? Kevin From at258 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 22:08:35 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990816213528.009e6e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: My taste includes to Souchong, but a a cup of Earl Grey can be very pleasant indeed. I prefer no sugar, just milk, not cream. We have a new restaurant here that offers Earl Grey as the house tea. On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Max Eskin may have mentioned these words: > >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >>I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon > >>and India. > > > >Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from > >using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! > > Well, if you call drowning a haybale in boiling water 'convenient' -- ;-) > Personally, give me a nice cup of good, strong, Earl Grey... with just a > touch of _dark brown_ sugar... it gets rid of the acid-y taste without > adding nearly so much of a sweet flavor. Just don't let the water get > *cold* with the tea-bag still in - it will get a lot more bitter. Haven't > tested 'em all, but Bigelow is my preferred brand. > > And now back to our regularly scheduled listserv. :-) > > "Merch" > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 16 22:17:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990816213528.009e6e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >Well, if you call drowning a haybale in boiling water 'convenient' -- ;-) >Personally, give me a nice cup of good, strong, Earl Grey... with just a Nah, if it's not Diet Coke or Coffee, it had better be Darjeeling Tea! >touch of _dark brown_ sugar... it gets rid of the acid-y taste without >adding nearly so much of a sweet flavor. Just don't let the water get >*cold* with the tea-bag still in - it will get a lot more bitter. Haven't >tested 'em all, but Bigelow is my preferred brand. Hmm, my problem is my prefered brand is I think "The De L'inde", and to the best of my knowledge is only available in France :^( I've still got a box or two from the last time I was there that I'm slowly rationing. There is a English brand that is available in the US that I like, but don't remember the name at the moment. BTW, know of any brands that come in a Cloth tea bag, instead of paper (or whatever normal teabags are made of)? Zane, who turns his nose up at anything without caffine! | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From at258 at osfn.org Mon Aug 16 22:13:48 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Had a little buzz on, did we? On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, LordTyran wrote: > > >TRASH!?!?! I *love* lipton and two heaping spoons of Coffeemate creamer. I > > >prefer that over coffee when I have time in the morning, but if I'm trying > > > > You should try loose tea. For one thing, I must say that green tea, > > either bagged or loose, is excellent, sometimes better than other colors. > > Lipton orange pekoe tea gets real boring, and it just doesn't have half > > the aroma of loose tea. Today, I dipped a ball full of indian tea into a > > cup of hot water, and the room smelled like I had a bouquet of flowers in > > there. > > In Peru, the tea of choice is Matte de Coca, or coca leaves (you need to > chew it with lime to make it the "good stuff" :) You can get Matte de > Coca tea packets, but some nicer restaurants (like the good vegetarian one > down the street I would often patronize) gave you a steeping cup of coca > leaves. I'd drink mine straight (no sugar) like I drink all my tea. > > I drank it almost every morning and sometimes during lunch and dinner. > Matte de Coca, while obviously not caffeinated, did have special > properties. Purportedly, it was good for alleviating altitude sickness (I > was at ~11,500ft), good for your immune system, assisted digestion, > alleviated fatigue, and had a few other benefits (this is what was printed > on the tea packets :) I'd have to say it did live up to a lot of these > claims after having drank it for the better part of a month. > > Too bad America has this silly aversion to coca leaves due to this > obnoxious and fruitless drug war we've been unsuccessfully waging for the > past 15 years or else we might be able to get some here. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 22:19:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: <13476066641.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Wanna be a K-Rad PBX hacker...] > > Hey, I don't mind. Time to go dig up my old copies of Phrack and such and > see if there's any pits to fall into... Phrack won't help you install and program this thing. Maybe it'll help you hack into it and set up a diverter so you can make illegal long distance calls and rip yourself off. > Oh, and I thought it was Phreak, in this context... ^_^ Sure. > (Speaking of which, if you haven't heard these before, there's some > funny as hell recordings on www.wideweb.com/phonetrips. ESPECIALLY > the Dom Tuffy stuff and the Salute to Operators. I cut those onto a tape > so I can go impress the others at work. Seeing as the 1971-1976, I bet > some of the practices mentoned in those publications would work...) Very cool! Thanks for the link. The "famous person" he refers to in the picture is John "Cap'n Crunch" Draper. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 16 21:19:15 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Unfortunately, no. Unfortunately? >Except I'm not a communist :) Wha.....? WHY DOES EVERYBODY THINK I'M A COMMUNIST? IN SUMMER CAMP, I WAS VOTED MOST LIKELY TO START A COMMUNIST MOVEMENT!!! I THOUGHT WE DISCUSSED THIS! I AM NOT A COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *ahem* And now back to our regularly scheduled program ;) >I could have taken home a box of the bagged tea but didn't. From what >I hear, U.S. Customs would have been very unhappy with me had I tried to >import coca leaves into the US. Did they actually check your baggage with dogs? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Aug 16 22:24:13 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13476073784.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Phrack will help me rip myself off.] No, it'll help me figure out how to try preventing others from doing this. ------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 22:47:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >Except I'm not a communist :) > > Wha.....? > WHY DOES EVERYBODY THINK I'M A COMMUNIST? IN SUMMER CAMP, I WAS VOTED > MOST LIKELY TO START A COMMUNIST MOVEMENT!!! I THOUGHT WE DISCUSSED THIS! > I AM NOT A COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > *ahem* > And now back to our regularly scheduled program ;) Well, you're certainly not evolved enough yet to understand and truly accept Capitalism, so I can't call you that :) > Did they actually check your baggage with dogs? Nope, customs was very painless for us both ways. When we got to customs back in the US, there were three paths. Paths 1 and 2 led to a search of your bags, path 3 led to freedom. The customs dude looked at our passports, looked at us, and then directed us to path 3. Freedom. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 16 22:47:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: <13476073784.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Phrack will help me rip myself off.] > > No, it'll help me figure out how to try preventing others from doing this. That's simple. Don't enable trunk-to-trunk conferencing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From spc at armigeron.com Mon Aug 16 22:42:52 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <19990817023316.10354.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 17, 99 02:33:16 am Message-ID: <199908170342.XAA09945@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990816/fa42b888/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Aug 16 23:43:06 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay Message-ID: Flame me if you want... But it seemed significant enough to mention. Should be interesting to see where this one goes price wise. Minimum bid is $5,000US. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 00:15:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, James Willing wrote: > Flame me if you want... But it seemed significant enough to mention. > > Should be interesting to see where this one goes price wise. Minimum bid > is $5,000US. This is the same Apple 1 that was supposedly auctioned off in that much reported auction a month ago. I wonder what its doing on ebay now? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=148058187 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 17 00:23:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990816222229.00b99200@mcmanis.com> At 10:15 PM 8/16/99 -0700, you wrote: >This is the same Apple 1 that was supposedly auctioned off in that much >reported auction a month ago. I wonder what its doing on ebay now? >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=148058187 This guy is too weird. Check out how many simultaneous auctions he has running (most of it junk). He isn't trying to sell the "prototype Lisa" again (yet!) --Chuck From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Aug 17 02:26:17 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <000401bee81e$d68584d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Aug 16, 99 03:37:55 pm Message-ID: <199908170726.AAA21795@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Fortunately, the article does not use that horrid phrase: > > "Software Program" > > AAARRRGGG!!! > > Why don't we get in the automobile car and drive ride to the > financial institution bank. There we can get some cash currency > from the ATM machine. ... which you use your PIN number to access... > I may have to transfer send some money funds > to my IRA account. After that we can go to the movie theater cinema > and purchase buy some admission tickets. After we see the movie > production, we can go to a restaurant bistro and eat consume some > dinner food. We could get a nice container bottle of wine beverage. > > Sorry to rant, but I'm in a bad mood. Don't worry, it was a very amusing rant. I think "admission tickets" needs another word. Admission ticket stub remnants? -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Aug 17 02:37:55 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908170342.XAA09945@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 16, 99 11:42:52 pm Message-ID: <199908170737.AAA18519@saul4.u.washington.edu> Sean Conner mused: > It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated: > > Max Eskin writes: > > > You should try loose tea. For one thing, I must say that green tea, > > > either bagged or loose, is excellent, sometimes better than other colors. > > > > For hot tea, sure. > > > > For iced tea, nothing beats Lipton. It's amazing. When I left home and > > went to college I tried absolutely everything, and simply couldn't find > > anything that made decent iced tea. Finally I called my grandmother, to > > ask what the secret was. I was totally astounded. > > Well, I guess we need some method of getting caffiene to work on our old > computers, and tea has been around for longer than 10 years, so I guess this > is marginally on topic 8-) > > I've found the best way to make iced tea is to fill a clear gallon > container (glass or plastic, but it has to be transparent) with water. Put > in 6 tea bags (doesn't matter what type---I use the local supermarket brand > (Orange Pekote) with good results) and set outside on a sunny day in the > morning. Let sit all day. At dusk, bring it in, remove tea bags. Enjoy > with ice and store remainder in refridgerator. > > It's not bitter, and it doesn't cloud at all. I've never tried that method (though I've heard of it in a couple of places). The method I'm familiar with for iced tea is simply to make a pot of tea using twice as many tea bags as usual, stick a sprig of fresh mint into the hot tea, put ice in, and drink when cold. Sugar helps because the tea is unfortunately pretty bitter. But the mint is great. Now if I only knew how to make masala chai like they make at Indian restaurants... I have a recipe somewhere, I've seen it done, but I've never tried it. It basically involves boiling tea with milk and spices for a long time, and it's REALLY good. If you've had chai at the espresso stand and found it cloying, you had it at the wrong place. True chai is not sticky or super-sweet like the impostor stuff. To keep this on topic... The RT-11 (or RSX-11?) installation program determines whether your machine is using 50Hz or 60Hz power. If 50Hz, it tells you to make a cup of tea (because the installation takes a long time). If 60Hz, it tells you to make a cup of coffee. -- Derek From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 17 02:29:22 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >>BTW I hate coffee, but drink fine tea by the gallon. > >Amen to that! Lately I am really hooked on Trader Joes (weird smaller west coast market chain) Darjeeling. Excellent hot or cold. I have a cold quart next to me right now. Sweet clean taste and guzzles well. Ah, now its gone. ;) From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 17 02:30:02 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <37B8A48C.116@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, JAMES WEBSTER wrote: > >> To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. >> >> > >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html > >F >>ull of what, and in what way? Below is the email I sent to her. Name 10 software packages that lacked substantial bugs, or did not break within one or two generations of OS upgrades, whose companies are still in business. Those are your "failed" software companies. They made the critical mistake of releasing good products. No major bugs, no "creative programming" guaranteed to break with the next OS release. Dedicated people with good ideas that had something solid by version 2.0 or so. Now think about the most bug riddled, short lived software on the planet. What a surprize those are the companies rolling in cash. In 10 years people will look back at the 80s and 90s as a time of utter insanity regarding computers. The first glimpse of the coming sanity is that people are questioning what they are told, and going back and looking for the classics of their time. For me I am just having fun playing with my toys, be they old or new. Cheers, Mike Ford From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 17 02:35:42 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: >>I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon >>and India. > >Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from >using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! Here is a little tea "foodchain". There are worse tea's than supermarket Lipton tea bags, but rather than dwell on it I will just start with Lipton. Lipton. Tetly Red Rose, Farmer Bros (restaurant brand) Typhoo, PG Tips (cheap UK imports) Trader Joe Darjeeling, Mountain View (Iranian brand) Taylors of Harrowgate (non cheap UK import) Harrods house blends, especially vanilla and afternoon tea. Estate teas, the best product from the best plantations. These have character much like wines and individual preferences will vary, so no particular order other than my own preference. Marget's Hope Castleton A "good" cup of tea is a worthwhile experience, and this isn't even touching on all the interesting teas like Russian Caravan, Indian Chai, vanilla tea, Dragon well, etc etc. BTW a very nice Earl Grey is a Canadian brand, Star tea in bright red sacks. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 07:36:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > either bagged or loose, is excellent, sometimes better than other colors. > Lipton orange pekoe tea gets real boring, and it just doesn't have half > the aroma of loose tea. Today, I dipped a ball full of indian tea into a > cup of hot water, and the room smelled like I had a bouquet of flowers in > there. As someone that does coffee (programming fluid) and teas I would say a good dark roast coffee, strong, Oolong or Jasmine loose teas are very high on my list. Though a good green tea is nice too. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Tue Aug 17 07:39:00 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would it brew tea? That might be a useful little thing. There's an online coffee pot somewhere in England. Strange no one has yet automated a water closet or something. On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, LordTyran wrote: > > I haven't yet figured out how to work a PIC into my tea habit, though. > > > > Eric "will program for iced tea" Smith > > > Ahh, I was waiting for someone to bring this up. > > As stupid/crazy/cool as it seems, there is a Linux-Coffeemaker-HOWTO. > Tells you how to use an SCR or a relay to hook up your coffee makes to > your parallel port, add a /dev/coffeemaker entry (basically a ln to > /dev/parX) and add a cron daemon entry to make your coffee each morning. > > Scary, eh? > > Kevin > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Tue Aug 17 07:46:06 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think the Lipton loose tea is superior to the bags, quite a bit superior as a matter of fact. I prefer Tetly's British blend, and Autocrat is a reasonably good domestic brand. On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >>I fear if I stopped drinking tea, I would vitiate the economies of Ceylon > >>and India. > > > >Oh, you drink _real_ tea, no Lipton? I'm slowly trying to stop myself from > >using that trash, but it's so darn _convenient_! > > Here is a little tea "foodchain". There are worse tea's than supermarket > Lipton tea bags, but rather than dwell on it I will just start with Lipton. > > Lipton. > Tetly > Red Rose, Farmer Bros (restaurant brand) > Typhoo, PG Tips (cheap UK imports) > Trader Joe Darjeeling, Mountain View (Iranian brand) > > Taylors of Harrowgate (non cheap UK import) > Harrods house blends, especially vanilla and afternoon tea. > > Estate teas, the best product from the best plantations. These have > character much like wines and individual preferences will vary, so no > particular order other than my own preference. > Marget's Hope > Castleton > > A "good" cup of tea is a worthwhile experience, and this isn't even > touching on all the interesting teas like Russian Caravan, Indian Chai, > vanilla tea, Dragon well, etc etc. > > BTW a very nice Earl Grey is a Canadian brand, Star tea in bright red sacks. > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 07:47:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Lately I am really hooked on Trader Joes (weird smaller west coast market > chain) Darjeeling. Excellent hot or cold. I have a cold quart next to me > right now. Sweet clean taste and guzzles well. Ah, now its gone. ;) They are in the Boston and NH area too. My favorite source of darkroast coffee and yes Darjeeling.. Allison From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Aug 17 09:00:25 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990817095550.00ab6390@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:47 PM 8/16/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >> >Except I'm not a communist :) >> >> Wha.....? >> WHY DOES EVERYBODY THINK I'M A COMMUNIST? IN SUMMER CAMP, I WAS VOTED >> MOST LIKELY TO START A COMMUNIST MOVEMENT!!! I THOUGHT WE DISCUSSED THIS! >> I AM NOT A COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> *ahem* >> And now back to our regularly scheduled program ;) > >Well, you're certainly not evolved enough yet to understand and truly >accept Capitalism, so I can't call you that :) Maybe "Socialist" would work? It's not so bad a moniker as it was back in pre-70's/80's USA. > >> Did they actually check your baggage with dogs? > >Nope, customs was very painless for us both ways. When we got to customs >back in the US, there were three paths. Paths 1 and 2 led to a search of >your bags, path 3 led to freedom. The customs dude looked at our >passports, looked at us, and then directed us to path 3. Freedom. Path 3?? Jeeez, I saw your photo online re VCF and I find this extremely hard to believe!! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Aug 17 09:01:53 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop Message-ID: <01BEE897.88A31F10.steverob@hotoffice.com> Saw this at the local thrift and was wondering if it is worth grabbing. It's a ZENITH Luggable computer. Looks kinda like a COMPAQ suitcase computer. Although it could be a tad smaller. The unsual thing about it is that the drives (5-1/4 and HD) are hidden in the top of the case. There is a release mechanism that allows them to pop-up for access. It's priced at $30 but, I could probably get it for about $20. Is it worth collecting? On another note: I picked up a couple of real nice "Media Cabinets" for $25 each. They're 7 feet tall, 18 inches deep, and 3 feet wide. They have lockable roll-down doors (tambour), they're made of steel, and weigh a TON! Great storage at a great price. See Ya, Steve Robertson From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 17 09:44:08 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: References: <19990817023316.10354.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990817094408.010ed830@vpwisfirewall> At 11:05 PM 8/16/99 -0400, LordTyran wrote: > >As stupid/crazy/cool as it seems, there is a Linux-Coffeemaker-HOWTO. >Tells you how to use an SCR or a relay to hook up your coffee makes to >your parallel port, add a /dev/coffeemaker entry (basically a ln to >/dev/parX) and add a cron daemon entry to make your coffee each morning. X-10 stuff is more flexible and probably less expensive. I jumped for the $6 promo news-ertised on Slashdot a few weeks ago, and have been sorely tempted to buy more, so I guess the plan worked. The offer is still up there. What? No one's going to stand up and defend the ice-cold can of Diet Mountain Dew? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 17 09:56:19 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <37B8A48C.116@bellsouth.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990817095619.011d7230@vpwisfirewall> At 04:53 PM 8/16/99 -0700, you wrote: >To put it kindly, Victoria Shannon sounds like she is full of it. I'm always comforted by articles like this. It helps me remember that if I were in some kind of car accident and suffered mental or physical injuries, I could always find a job as a writer who does nothing but read other people's articles, does little to no bothersome research, and regurgitates other people's stories. Or I could get a job in marketing or PR, of course. Someone should make a web site that tracks the flow of stories: random techie submits something to Slashdot, Wired freelancer picks up on it within the hour, appears on www.wired.com two hours later as a peppy summary almost as long as text on the originally referenced web page, followed by wire service reports re-chewed from the previous "sources" if the news is big enough. Yes, this is progress! Now, with the Web, I can read news stories and then re-read them two or three times in traditional media, days later! No one's mentioned that some of the old software she's talking about is pirated, unless of course the copyright holders have actually released it. - John From transit at primenet.com Tue Aug 17 10:02:26 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990817095619.011d7230@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: > No one's mentioned that some of the old software she's talking about > is pirated, unless of course the copyright holders have actually > released it. The Borland stuff was re-released by Borland, and is free, but they still retain the copyright. The Mac site mentioned was just old shareware, if I recall correctly . . . From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 17 10:32:16 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908170737.AAA18519@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: [snip] > > To keep this on topic... The RT-11 (or RSX-11?) installation program > determines whether your machine is using 50Hz or 60Hz power. If 50Hz, it > tells you to make a cup of tea (because the installation takes a long time). > If 60Hz, it tells you to make a cup of coffee. I remember this. I did an RSX 3.2 sysgen a while ago and it told me to take a coffeebreak. Didn't look at the source for the indirect file though... > > -- Derek jake From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 17 11:44:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990817114433.39af84a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:15 PM 8/16/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> Flame me if you want... But it seemed significant enough to mention. >> >> Should be interesting to see where this one goes price wise. Minimum bid >> is $5,000US. > >This is the same Apple 1 that was supposedly auctioned off in that much >reported auction a month ago. I wonder what its doing on ebay now? He probably staged the auction last month to try and set a high price and now he hopes that some idiot is stupid enough to pay it. I just checked the auction, it's up to $5,700. So it looks like someone IS stupid enough! Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 17 10:45:14 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990817114433.39af84a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > I just checked the auction, it's up to $5,700. So it looks like > someone IS stupid enough! Well, considering they don't make 'em anymore, I thing that this "idiot" (or whoever the "idiot" is that wins it) may end up with a great buy, and be laughing all the way home from the Post Office. Just think of its value ten years from now, then twenty. This auction's price may be "a mere bag of shells". I think this may be one of the defining moments for us - the "Holy Grail" is being sold. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From chris at handsoninc.com Tue Aug 17 10:54:46 1999 From: chris at handsoninc.com (Chris Ruess) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Thanks to someone on the list, I saw the url for the people making a "new" imsai. I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for $995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do you think? Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 10:53:21 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) Message-ID: <001201bee8c8$a24cd4c0$0400c0a8@winbook> So . . . Linux will use the parallel port to turn on the coffee maker, but who'll fetch, measure, mix, and grind the beans? When does it clean out the coffee pot and put the old coffee in the house-plants? What about the filter? Hmmmm? Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) >At 11:05 PM 8/16/99 -0400, LordTyran wrote: >> >>As stupid/crazy/cool as it seems, there is a Linux-Coffeemaker-HOWTO. >>Tells you how to use an SCR or a relay to hook up your coffee makes to >>your parallel port, add a /dev/coffeemaker entry (basically a ln to >>/dev/parX) and add a cron daemon entry to make your coffee each morning. > >X-10 stuff is more flexible and probably less expensive. I jumped >for the $6 promo news-ertised on Slashdot a few weeks ago, and have >been sorely tempted to buy more, so I guess the plan worked. The >offer is still up there. > >What? No one's going to stand up and defend the ice-cold can of >Diet Mountain Dew? > >- John > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 10:54:39 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 References: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <9908171155120E.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Chris Ruess wrote: >Thanks to someone on the list, I saw the url for the people making a "new" >imsai. > >I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for >$995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do >you think? Doubtful...because they'll be the "new" ones, not the "original" ones. Not much nostalgia in that! -Dave McGuire From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 17 11:00:47 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: > I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for > $995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do > you think? No, not at all. People will pay for the history. Look at the old Western Electric 300B audio tube (valve). These things skyrocketted to several hundred dollars each. A few years ago, Westrex decided to tool up and make them again. They produced 300Bs that are _identical_ to the old ones. What did the price of the old ones do? Well, not much. A little bump, thats it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Aug 17 11:15:26 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from Chris Ruess at "Aug 17, 1999 10:54:46 am" Message-ID: <199908171615.QAA07529@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Thanks to someone on the list, I saw the url for the people making a "new" > imsai. > > I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for > $995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do > you think? > > Jay West > I'm waiting to see if they follow historical precedents and collect money for a year or so before shipping anything... I'm also waiting to see what operating system it will run, when and which languages will be available, and exactly how much has to be added to make a usable system. I seem to recall when I read it yesterday, that it only comes with a pathetic amount of ram.. It would be nice if it could at least run cp/m, have Basic, FORTRAN, and Pascal available, and have a usable bitmap graphics display. I'm also waiting to see how the floppy and hard drive interfaces work out. This sure seems to cost a lot for a box with no floppy or hard drive interfaces as standard, no operating system or programing languages as standard, etc, etc. I admit that I am intrigued by the possibilities though. If i could buy a new paper tape reader/punch for it, i could overlook much of this... I guess what I'm really saying is, I'm waiting to see how nostalgic the computer will be, versis how modernistic it will be... -Lawrence LeMay From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 11:32:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908171615.QAA07529@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Thanks to someone on the list, I saw the url for the people making a "new" > > imsai. > > I guess what I'm really saying is, I'm waiting to see how nostalgic the > computer will be, versis how modernistic it will be... With processor cards, floppies, memory and what have you only the box need be new. I could outfit one with a NS* CPU, FDC and even their memory all pre 1980. For someone doing s100 and wanting a real FP machine that would be handy. Though I'd only want the box and PS so I could put in one of those Godbout smart frontpannels with the octal keypad and one of their low noise backplanes. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 11:36:44 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 References: Message-ID: <9908171237560R.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >With processor cards, floppies, memory and what have you only the box >need be new. I could outfit one with a NS* CPU, FDC and even their memory >all pre 1980. Didn't somebody put an F-11 processor on an S100 card many years ago? Anybody remember that? I'm sure I remember hearing something about that. -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 11:30:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <001401bee8cd$d0b7d1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> In 1964, Olin-Mathieson acquired Winchester. For years after that, the gun ads in the papers would advertise their "pre-1964" shotguns, rifles, etc. at prices well above those of the "new" ones. The Olin-Mathieson folks did take tooling out of mothballs and produce models which had been discontinued, but folks seemed to prefer the "old" and original ones. I'm curious what will happen with the IMSAI in view of the lack of current-generation 8080's. Maybe they'll substitute an FPGA. Otherwise, of what use will it be? Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:59 AM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for >> $995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do >> you think? > >No, not at all. People will pay for the history. > >Look at the old Western Electric 300B audio tube (valve). These things >skyrocketted to several hundred dollars each. A few years ago, Westrex >decided to tool up and make them again. They produced 300Bs that are >_identical_ to the old ones. What did the price of the old ones do? Well, >not much. A little bump, thats it. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 11:45:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <9908171237560R.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > Didn't somebody put an F-11 processor on an S100 card many years ago? Anybody > remember that? I'm sure I remember hearing something about that. > It wasn't F11 though it could be done. It was a LSI-1 and later the T11. Also Alpha micro used the same chipset as LSI-11 do do the AM100. CPUs put on s100 as commercial products : 8080 8085 8088 8086 80186 80286 80386 z80 z180 NSC800 Z800x 6800 6809 68000 6502 RCA1802 TI9900 LSI-11 T11 I may have forgot a few... Allison From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Tue Aug 17 11:54:32 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <001201bee8c8$a24cd4c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Aug 17, 99 09:53:21 am" Message-ID: <199908171654.MAA22790@hiway1.exit109.com> > So . . . Linux will use the parallel port to turn on the coffee maker, but > who'll fetch, measure, mix, and grind the beans? When does it clean out the > coffee pot and put the old coffee in the house-plants? What about the > filter? Hmmmm? In the cafeteria at my old job, they had a coffee vending machine that purported to measure, gind, etc. the beans. It also provided options such as three strength levels, three sweetness levels for the optional sugar, and three lightness levels for the optional milk. All this in addition to dispensing hot chocolate and mocha (chocolate and coffee). Personally, I always thought that this would be a great machine to put under external computer control. About as close to the ultimate Linux coffee pot as you could find... <<>> From ware at interaccess.com Tue Aug 17 12:04:48 1999 From: ware at interaccess.com (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: More available equipment / Chicago rescue opportunity Message-ID: The moving truck arrives Monday, and I still have far too much stuff. If anyone in the Chicago area is interested, I have the following equipment available free to a good home (of course, interesting token small trades or cash won't be turned down...) DEC RL02 disk drive w/packs DEC 6-bit A/D converter (likely to be incomplete - made with single-height flip chip modules. Was used with an 8/e.) Assorted DEC power supplies (single and multi-voltage outputs) Apple II+ with Disk II drives Apple IIgs Apple Disk II drives Apple Macintosh IIci Apple Macintosh Plus (qty. 3) Apple Macintosh SE Apple monitors - II, IIc, RGB, Mac Assorted monochrome and color monitors Assorted PC clone cases, parts, and power supplies AST 486 desktop (stripped) Compaq 386 desktops (qty. 5) Compaq Portable II (one data line on ISA bus stuck low?) Data General/Hitachi 20" monitor (fixed freq for AViiON, RGB+sync on green, slight xdm login screen burn. Same model used with some SGI systems) Magnavox Odyssey2 (qty. 3) Okidata LaserLine 6 printer (w/extra toner) Sony 16" Trinitron monitor (fixed freq, RGB+h&v sync inputs) Keyboard for Commodore 128D VTech Laser 128 (poor cond.) 8" and 5.25" floppy disks Various non-computer electronics (JBL speaker components, assorted a/v equipment, old test equipment) There are also many other items that I may be willing to part with if someone is interested, including the following: DEC PDP-11/24 Luggables - Compaq, Panasonic, Sanyo, etc. Other Apple II-series and Macintosh systems and peripherals I will not have time to pack and ship any of this equipment before the move, so pickup in Chicago (Lakeview/Lincoln Park area in the city) would be greatly preferred. I may be able to make some of the smaller items magically reappear in the SF Bay Area in a few weeks (for the cost of freight) if there is no local interest, but I can't do that with the larger items. Help! -- Scott Ware ware@interaccess.com From wsmith at gj.com Tue Aug 17 12:18:41 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:50 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 (serial no. search) Message-ID: Robert Uiterwyk 08/16 11:53 AM wrote: >I am desperately looking to fill the last hole in my "machines that I have >worked with" museum. > >An IBM 5100 - This machine used two 1/4 inch tape drives and had either >Basic or APL (or both) in ROM. Inbtroduced in 1975 by IBM. I am seeking assistance in estimating the total production of IBM 5100s. I believe this can be done by collecting a sufficiently large sample of serial numbers and related information. Hopefully, I will be able to divine the numbering convention and thereby come up with a reasonable estimate of total production. This, of course, assumes that the units were serially numbered. Therefore, I am looking following information for 5100 units: 1. Model (BASIC only, APL only or APL/BASIC) 2. Manufacture date (if known) 3. Serial number Also, I would like to receive item 2 and 3 information of 5106 tape drive units. Thanks, all. ! ! ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 12:39:29 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 References: <001401bee8cd$d0b7d1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <9908171341590V.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >I'm curious what will happen with the IMSAI in view of the lack of >current-generation 8080's. Maybe they'll substitute an FPGA. Otherwise, of >what use will it be? Well, if they go through mainstream channels, yes, they're hard to find. I frequently see tubes of them at hamfests, however. How many will they really need? Also, there are a few companies that specialize in "obsolete" (read: unmarketable, not unusable) chips and components...some of them buy new old stock from long-forgotten corners of warehouses, others salvage them from boards, clean them up, test them, and repackage them. I really doubt they'll have any problems getting the components they need. -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 13:09:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <001401bee8cd$d0b7d1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > I'm curious what will happen with the IMSAI in view of the lack of > current-generation 8080's. Maybe they'll substitute an FPGA. Otherwise, of > what use will it be? Assuming you mean that 8080s are not available...Lots of places still sell them. I doubt they will need more than a handfull to satisfy any likely orders. Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:21:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990817095550.00ab6390@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > >Nope, customs was very painless for us both ways. When we got to customs > >back in the US, there were three paths. Paths 1 and 2 led to a search of > >your bags, path 3 led to freedom. The customs dude looked at our > >passports, looked at us, and then directed us to path 3. Freedom. > > Path 3?? Jeeez, I saw your photo online re VCF and I find this extremely > hard to believe!! Yeah, and an Arabic name to boot! Makes you wonder whether these guys are doing their job or not. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:22:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop In-Reply-To: <01BEE897.88A31F10.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > It's a ZENITH Luggable computer. Looks kinda like a COMPAQ suitcase > computer. Although it could be a tad smaller. The unsual thing about it is > that the drives (5-1/4 and HD) are hidden in the top of the case. There is > a release mechanism that allows them to pop-up for access. > > It's priced at $30 but, I could probably get it for about $20. Is it worth > collecting? $20 isn't bad. Sounds like a neat machine. I'd try to get it for $15. > On another note: I picked up a couple of real nice "Media Cabinets" for $25 > each. They're 7 feet tall, 18 inches deep, and 3 feet wide. They have > lockable roll-down doors (tambour), they're made of steel, and weigh a TON! > Great storage at a great price. I bid on a couple of those at an auction once but was outbid. Those are very nice storage cabinets. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:23:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's web site Message-ID: I don't know if you all know about this already but its a pretty nice site. http://www.pc-history.org/ It's Stan Veit's, who by the way will be speaking at VCF 3.0. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:26:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > The Borland stuff was re-released by Borland, and is free, but they still > retain the copyright. The Mac site mentioned was just old shareware, if I > recall correctly . . . I tried the Broland site last night and it wanted me to create an account and login. I don't have time to waste on that. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 12:37:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 16, 99 07:28:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990817/e30ebcbd/attachment.ksh From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Aug 17 13:40:37 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 (serial no. search) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990817144037.007ae620@mail.wincom.net> At 10:18 AM 8/17/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Robert Uiterwyk 08/16 11:53 AM wrote: > >>I am desperately looking to fill the last hole in my "machines that I have >>worked with" museum. >> >>An IBM 5100 - This machine used two 1/4 inch tape drives and had either >>Basic or APL (or both) in ROM. Inbtroduced in 1975 by IBM. > >I am seeking assistance in estimating the total production of IBM 5100s. I believe this can be done by collecting a sufficiently large sample of serial numbers and related information. Hopefully, I will be able to divine the numbering convention and thereby come up with a reasonable estimate of total production. This, of course, assumes that the units were serially numbered. > >Therefore, I am looking following information for 5100 units: > >1. Model (BASIC only, APL only or APL/BASIC) >2. Manufacture date (if known) >3. Serial number > >Also, I would like to receive item 2 and 3 information of 5106 tape drive units. > >Thanks, all. Mine is 5100WT # 13352, (BA101), and the tape drive is 5106WT #31965. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:41:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > Well, considering they don't make 'em anymore, I thing that this "idiot" > (or whoever the "idiot" is that wins it) may end up with a great buy, > and be laughing all the way home from the Post Office. > > Just think of its value ten years from now, then twenty. This auction's > price may be "a mere bag of shells". You're assuming this will go at the current price, which is below the reserve, which I am sure is no less than $40-50K. I know the guy selling, and he won't take anything less than $40K for it, last I spoke to him. > I think this may be one of the defining moments for us - the "Holy Grail" > is being sold. It's not the "Holy Grail". Its not the 1st Apple 1 as was advertised during the much publicized auction. The actual 1st Apple 1, as given to Liza Loop by The Woz himself, still resides in the Silicon Valley. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:43:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Chris Ruess wrote: > Thanks to someone on the list, I saw the url for the people making a "new" > imsai. > > I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for > $995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do > you think? Maybe, maybe not. Its still not vintage in the sense that the original IMSAI's are. It has a different power supply for one thing. The funny thing is, he's just created another collectible computer that people will be selling on Ebay in 10-20 years for $2-3K. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From transit at primenet.com Tue Aug 17 13:45:39 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > The Borland stuff was re-released by Borland, and is free, but they still > > retain the copyright. The Mac site mentioned was just old shareware, if I > > recall correctly . . . > > I tried the Broland site last night and it wanted me to create an account > and login. I don't have time to waste on that. Just push the "Anonymous" button. You'll get right in, not only to download the old software, but read most of the other content on the site. . . From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 13:45:33 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 References: Message-ID: <9908171446261A.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> Didn't somebody put an F-11 processor on an S100 card many years ago? Anybody >> remember that? I'm sure I remember hearing something about that. > >It wasn't F11 though it could be done. It was a LSI-1 and later the T11. >Also Alpha micro used the same chipset as LSI-11 do do the AM100. Neat...I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one of those. They're pretty rare, I'd guess, no? -Dave McGuire From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:47:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <9908171237560R.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > >With processor cards, floppies, memory and what have you only the box > >need be new. I could outfit one with a NS* CPU, FDC and even their memory > >all pre 1980. > > Didn't somebody put an F-11 processor on an S100 card many years > ago? Anybody remember that? I'm sure I remember hearing something > about that. The AlphaMicrosystems AM100. It was a two board set. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 13:49:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > CPUs put on s100 as commercial products : > > 8080 > 8085 > 8088 > 8086 > 80186 > 80286 > 80386 > z80 > z180 > NSC800 > Z800x > 6800 > 6809 > 68000 > 6502 > RCA1802 > TI9900 > LSI-11 > T11 NS32032 NS32016 Wow, a TI9900 S-100 CPU board? I'd love to have one of those. ANd an 1802 one. KoOL! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 14:46:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <9908171446261A.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > > >It wasn't F11 though it could be done. It was a LSI-1 and later the T11. > >Also Alpha micro used the same chipset as LSI-11 do do the AM100. > > Neat...I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one of those. They're pretty > rare, I'd guess, no? Likely rare as the company was not a big one and PDP-11 on s100 would be rather unDEC in the software support. At best rt11 might have been doable if all the device drivers were rewritten. I'd bet those that were sold (the bulk of them) are in embedded systems. The alpha micros were pretty popular though not cheap and they may be more common. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 14:50:57 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Didn't somebody put an F-11 processor on an S100 card many years > > ago? Anybody remember that? I'm sure I remember hearing something > > about that. > > The AlphaMicrosystems AM100. It was a two board set. 1) The AM100 was not f100 2) is was NOT PDP-11 compatable, though similar. 3) there was a PDP-11 chipset on S100 from Marinechip systems if memory wasn't too blown. They did a later T11 (one chip) board to supply the embedded market. At the time S100 boards for process control were easier to design and cheaper to build. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 17 15:10:06 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine)" (Aug 17, 0:37) References: <199908170737.AAA18519@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <9908172110.ZM6747@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 17, 0:37, Derek Peschel wrote: > To keep this on topic... The RT-11 (or RSX-11?) installation program > determines whether your machine is using 50Hz or 60Hz power. If 50Hz, it > tells you to make a cup of tea (because the installation takes a long time). > If 60Hz, it tells you to make a cup of coffee. It's RSX-11. OB nitpick: On Aug 17, 0:35, Mike Ford wrote: > Tetly > Taylors of Harrowgate (non cheap UK import) Actually, Tetley, and Taylors of Harrogate. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From peter at joules.enterprise-plc.com Tue Aug 17 15:20:53 1999 From: peter at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Duplicate messages Message-ID: <004c01bee8ee$03d20ab0$2fc448c2@DROOPY> Are others on th list receiving duplicte posts or is it just me. If it is general then is ot a problem with the list server or has everyone's mail client gone up the spout at the same time ;-) Regards Pete From max82 at surfree.com Tue Aug 17 15:02:27 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908170737.AAA18519@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >To keep this on topic... The RT-11 (or RSX-11?) installation program >determines whether your machine is using 50Hz or 60Hz power. If 50Hz, it >tells you to make a cup of tea (because the installation takes a long time). >If 60Hz, it tells you to make a cup of coffee. Ah, because tea isn't as popular in the US as it is in europe... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From max82 at surfree.com Tue Aug 17 15:04:23 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: late nights and caffeine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >Lately I am really hooked on Trader Joes (weird smaller west coast market >chain) Darjeeling. Excellent hot or cold. I have a cold quart next to me >right now. Sweet clean taste and guzzles well. Ah, now its gone. ;) We have Trader Joe's here in Boston as well. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 17 17:02:50 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Domain Ring card, what is it? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990816160847.3b2ff812@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990817170250.3cd7b61e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:24 PM 8/16/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >> I pulled this card out of a PC, it looks like some kind of LAN card but >> I've never seen one like it. Can anyone tell me more about it? It's a full > >I believe it's the network card used for the Apollo Domain Ring network. It's >a sort-of token ring, but non-standard. > >They're normally found in Apollo workstations - are you sure you pulled >it from a PC. Some of the Apollos do look a lot like PCs, but have 68k >processors in them. > Tony, Yes, I'm positive that I pulled it from a PC. It was a Compaq 486/50 and I have it here now. BUT, the computer was scrapped and someone may have stuck the card in there by mistake. Joe From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 16:33:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <001f01bee8f8$29902ac0$0400c0a8@winbook> The question in my mind is whether there are enough sources of the required parts that the people willing to pay IMSAI's rather generous price will be able to see a clear path to somewhere. Where that might be is another question. I always appreciated the "look" of the IMSAI with its big paddle-switches as opposed to the little ones on the ALTAIR. However, if I were going to use a front panel again, I'd use neither type of switch, myself. I built a very flexible front panel at one time using pushbutton switches with an integral LED, which, conveniently enough, comfortably sat on a 14-pin wire-wrap socket. When you wanted to set a switch, you pressed the switch if it wasn't already set. When you wanted it cleared, in the event it was set, you'd press it to clear it. it was difficult to get confused about which LED was associated with which switch. Another switch promotes the data into a presettable counter bank for each byte of the addresses or data. It's easy to step sequentially through a block of address space or data values. If a guy wants a box like the one that was on "War Games" I guess he'll want this one, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 12:08 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> I'm curious what will happen with the IMSAI in view of the lack of >> current-generation 8080's. Maybe they'll substitute an FPGA. Otherwise, of >> what use will it be? > >Assuming you mean that 8080s are not available...Lots of places still >sell them. I doubt they will need more than a handfull to satisfy any >likely orders. > >Allison > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 17:01:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Likely rare as the company was not a big one and PDP-11 on s100 would be > rather unDEC in the software support. At best rt11 might have been doable > if all the device drivers were rewritten. I'd bet those that were sold > (the bulk of them) are in embedded systems. > > The alpha micros were pretty popular though not cheap and they may be more > common. AlphaMicrosystems is still around and continues to give online support of older products. They were kind enough to respond to an e-mail of mine asking them about a computer of theirs I'd found at a ham fest. http://www.alphamicro.com They seem to have changed their name to AlphaServ.com since the last time I visited. Going to the bottom of the home page and clicking on AMOS will take you to older support. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 17 17:04:00 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <9908172110.ZM6747@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > OB nitpick: On Aug 17, 0:35, Mike Ford wrote: > > > Tetly > > Taylors of Harrowgate (non cheap UK import) > > Actually, Tetley, and Taylors of Harrogate. Lovely little town - don't know about the tea. We spent a night there some years back and had a truly excellent dinner at the Brasserie along with some top notch jazz from a local group. Memorable evening. - don From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 17 17:06:02 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Duplicate messages In-Reply-To: <004c01bee8ee$03d20ab0$2fc448c2@DROOPY> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Pete Joules wrote: > Are others on th list receiving duplicte posts or is it just me. If it > is general then is ot a problem with the list server or has everyone's > mail client gone up the spout at the same time ;-) No, only the UCE. - don From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 17:11:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <004601bee8fd$7c84cb00$0400c0a8@winbook> Though it's not consistent with my own bent, the "new" IMSAI offers a "safe" place in which to play with those extremely costly boards some folks have picked up from the eBay auctions. What puzzles me is why the IMSAI folks decided to use a switching power supply when the box and everything else already supported the needs of the S-100 with the previously available and now quite inexpensive unregulated supplies of yesteryear. One of the main benefits of the S-100 was that it had on-board regulation, so that if you didn't need a given supply, you didn't have to bring it on board and regulate it, dissipating power as you went. If the new box is capable of running the original boards, it must provide the raw 8 and +/- 16-volt supplies. Where's the benefit in having a switching regulator sitting in the back of the box? I suppose it creates a market for a power distribution module to put +5 and +/- 12 on each board which needs it rather than using the on-board regulators, but that opens another can of worms. What's the "right" way to distribute it without tampering with a historically correct board? Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> > >> >It wasn't F11 though it could be done. It was a LSI-1 and later the T11. >> >Also Alpha micro used the same chipset as LSI-11 do do the AM100. >> >> Neat...I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one of those. They're pretty >> rare, I'd guess, no? > >Likely rare as the company was not a big one and PDP-11 on s100 would be >rather unDEC in the software support. At best rt11 might have been doable >if all the device drivers were rewritten. I'd bet those that were sold >(the bulk of them) are in embedded systems. > >The alpha micros were pretty popular though not cheap and they may be more >common. > >Allison > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 17 17:22:02 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <990817182202.20200549@trailing-edge.com> >What puzzles me is why the IMSAI folks decided to use a switching power >supply when the box and everything else already supported the needs of the >S-100 with the previously available and now quite inexpensive unregulated >supplies of yesteryear. Probably an issue of economy, using PC-clone power supplies at about $25 each vs using a custom-wound transformer at $200 or so a pop. > One of the main benefits of the S-100 was that it >had on-board regulation, so that if you didn't need a given supply, you >didn't have to bring it on board and regulate it, dissipating power as you >went. If the new box is capable of running the original boards, it must >provide the raw 8 and +/- 16-volt supplies. Where's the benefit in having a >switching regulator sitting in the back of the box? I suppose it creates a >market for a power distribution module to put +5 and +/- 12 on each board >which needs it rather than using the on-board regulators, but that opens >another can of worms. What's the "right" way to distribute it without >tampering with a historically correct board? According to what I read from the web page, there's a PC-clone switching power supply followed by a "boost" switching circuit to get back to +8 and +/- 16. That's not completely unreasonable, but it sounds a little bit fishy to me in the sketchiness of the details. Several S-100 manufacturers who were still at it in the mid-80's had regulated +5V on the S-100 backplane. Those who wanted to use their older S-100 cards in such a machine just jumpered across the 7805's and viola! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Aug 17 17:31:07 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <19990817.173108.223.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:11:10 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" writes: > What puzzles me is why the IMSAI folks decided to use a switching > power supply when the box and everything else already supported the needs > of the S-100 with the previously available and now quite inexpensive > unregulated supplies of yesteryear. Well, for a given wattage, switchers are smaller, lighter, and more economical to produce. I imagine if they resorted to the old iron-core transformers of yore, they would have had a difficult time finding a supplier for them. When they did, the part would probly cost as much as the rest of the materials put together. Makes perfect sense to me. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 17:37:07 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 References: <19990817.173108.223.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <99081718383126.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >Well, for a given wattage, switchers are smaller, lighter, and more >economical to produce. I imagine if they resorted to the old iron-core >transformers of yore, they would have had a difficult time finding >a supplier for them. > >When they did, the part would probly cost as much as the rest of the >materials put together. Makes perfect sense to me. Hmm...good point about the cost, but iron-core power transformers aren't exactly out of style. They wouldn't have much of a hard time finding them...but paying for them would indeed be another matter. -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 17:35:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <006801bee900$c7866ca0$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not sure that "jumpering across" the 7805 will be healthy for the 7805. Of course, if the input doesn't drop below the output during shutdown this may not be a concern. However, if there's a significant off-board load on the input switching supply, and significant capacitance (bypass, for example) on the board, it's likely to cause problems. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:20 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >>What puzzles me is why the IMSAI folks decided to use a switching power >>supply when the box and everything else already supported the needs of the >>S-100 with the previously available and now quite inexpensive unregulated >>supplies of yesteryear. > >Probably an issue of economy, using PC-clone power supplies at about >$25 each vs using a custom-wound transformer at $200 or so a pop. > >> One of the main benefits of the S-100 was that it >>had on-board regulation, so that if you didn't need a given supply, you >>didn't have to bring it on board and regulate it, dissipating power as you >>went. If the new box is capable of running the original boards, it must >>provide the raw 8 and +/- 16-volt supplies. Where's the benefit in having a >>switching regulator sitting in the back of the box? I suppose it creates a >>market for a power distribution module to put +5 and +/- 12 on each board >>which needs it rather than using the on-board regulators, but that opens >>another can of worms. What's the "right" way to distribute it without >>tampering with a historically correct board? > >According to what I read from the web page, there's a PC-clone switching >power supply followed by a "boost" switching circuit to get back to >+8 and +/- 16. That's not completely unreasonable, but it sounds a >little bit fishy to me in the sketchiness of the details. > >Several S-100 manufacturers who were still at it in the mid-80's had >regulated +5V on the S-100 backplane. Those who wanted to use their >older S-100 cards in such a machine just jumpered across the 7805's and >viola! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 17 17:36:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19990817223627.16189.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote about CPUs on S100 boards: > It wasn't F11 though it could be done. It was a LSI-1 and later the T11. > Also Alpha micro used the same chipset as LSI-11 do do the AM100. Who built or sold the LSI-11 or T11 based CPUs? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 17 17:42:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <990817182202.20200549@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <990817182202.20200549@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19990817224259.16240.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim wrote: > According to what I read from the web page, there's a PC-clone switching > power supply followed by a "boost" switching circuit to get back to > +8 and +/- 16. That's not completely unreasonable, but it sounds a > little bit fishy to me in the sketchiness of the details. It sounds a *lot* fishy. For the required current, it would be more expensive to try to use a standard PC supply with custom step-up converters on the outputs than to simply: 1) Hack a stanard switcher 2) Build a custom switcher 3) Have one of the switcher manufacturers build a slightly customized model I've been thinking about replacing the power supply in my IMSAI because the transformer has shorted turns and is delaminating. I've been looking at stuff from Vicor. Not cheap, but high quality and reliable. From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Aug 17 13:58:29 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <006801bee900$c7866ca0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908172252.SAA16875@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:35:15 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: > I'm not sure that "jumpering across" the 7805 will be healthy for the 7805. > Of course, if the input doesn't drop below the output during shutdown this > may not be a concern. However, if there's a significant off-board load on > the input switching supply, and significant capacitance (bypass, for > example) on the board, it's likely to cause problems. > > Dick Hi, Actually that is not harmful thing. In fact, nearly all peecees of any brands and generic of any quality short out the 3.45V regulator via input and output to get 5V by either a jumper or a low resistance/high current capable FET in (automatic detection type like GX4, SP3 and such by Asus for 486). I'm sure that is same story for the split or single voltage supply modes for Pentium class boards. One thing about double PSUing from one to another voltages is bit too much to me from reliablity and cost viewpoints. Feeding 5V and 12V direct to bus is assumed that designer upsize the conductors enough to keep voltage drops low. THERE is decent PSUs that can be had in any voltages in multi outputs from one box and still be switcher. I'm all for switchers for efficieny and less heat output of quality built. Most linear regulators are happy on input voltages up to 30V BTW. Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 17:57:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <008801bee903$d78146e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . freight cost alone might be justification for using switchers. Nevertheless, I don't see a use for the regulated supplies in connection with a bus which by definition uses on-board regulation. If the supply actually provides the specified voltages, that's a different situation. The typical S-100 box, IIRC, used lots of amperes, even for just one memory board, and generated lots of heat. The average, even BIG, PC supply is not beefy enough to support a typical S-100 box as I remember them. 8 of the 8K SRAM boards with 2102's . . . well, you figure it out! There were other ways to go, of course, but back in the day of the 22-slot backplane, that's what justified the backplane's size. Power for the entire remainder of the system was not that much. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:33 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 > > >On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:11:10 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" >writes: > > > >> What puzzles me is why the IMSAI folks decided to use a switching >> power supply when the box and everything else already supported the >needs >> of the S-100 with the previously available and now quite inexpensive >> unregulated supplies of yesteryear. > >Well, for a given wattage, switchers are smaller, lighter, and more >economical to produce. I imagine if they resorted to the old iron-core >transformers of yore, they would have had a difficult time finding >a supplier for them. > >When they did, the part would probly cost as much as the rest of the >materials put together. Makes perfect sense to me. > > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 18:04:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <008d01bee904$ce5a06a0$0400c0a8@winbook> I suspect that there's quite a little work to be done on the IMSAI product before the first fully functional one will be shipped. I've got standard switchers which would do the job, i.e. their outputs can be adjusted to provide the needed current, e.g. 8V at 25 Amps, +/-12 16 @ 5 & 3 amps, or maybe less. These weigh less than the transformer supplies on the half dozen or so S-100 frames I've got, and, when size and weight are viewed from the standpoint of handling, storage, and shipping costs, they may even cost less. However, unless one anticipates volumes in excess of 1% of annual PC sales, the cost will not be comparable with PC supplies. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:45 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >Tim wrote: >> According to what I read from the web page, there's a PC-clone switching >> power supply followed by a "boost" switching circuit to get back to >> +8 and +/- 16. That's not completely unreasonable, but it sounds a >> little bit fishy to me in the sketchiness of the details. > >It sounds a *lot* fishy. For the required current, it would be more >expensive to try to use a standard PC supply with custom step-up converters >on the outputs than to simply: > >1) Hack a stanard switcher > >2) Build a custom switcher > >3) Have one of the switcher manufacturers build a slightly customized model > >I've been thinking about replacing the power supply in my IMSAI because >the transformer has shorted turns and is delaminating. I've been looking >at stuff from Vicor. Not cheap, but high quality and reliable. > From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Aug 17 18:10:44 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <19990817.173108.223.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:11:10 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" > writes: > > > > > What puzzles me is why the IMSAI folks decided to use a switching > > power supply when the box and everything else already supported the > needs (more Stuff SNIPped) > > Well, for a given wattage, switchers are smaller, lighter, and more > economical to produce. I imagine if they resorted to the old iron-core > transformers of yore, they would have had a difficult time finding > a supplier for them. Also, if using a packaged 'OEM' supply unit, one is spared the onus of compliance with a bunch of Regulatory Agencies... UL, FCC, CSA, ISO..... this is the reason a lot of products came with 'brick' or 'wall-wart' power units... someone else has already jumped thru those hoops for you. Then there's the liability issues if the thing bursts into flames and gives somebody's goldfish a sunburn. Having shepherded more than one project through the nightmare maze of Compliance, I can see the point for a packaged power unit over in-house design. Cheers John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 17:46:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <990817182202.20200549@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 17, 99 06:22:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2304 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990817/dd184065/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 18:16:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <009201bee906$8b32f240$0400c0a8@winbook> What you say is true, but the cases you bring up are not the same. The teensy regulator providing power for a processor is designed with pretty solid knowledge of the behavior of the load. The + 8 Volt supply in an S-100 box is a completely different thing, with loads which vary widely from one application to another, and, for that matter from one day to another. If you reversed the bias on the little regulator on a processor, the current stored in the processor would be negligible. If you have a memory circuit on an S-100 card, you probably have forty small capacitors and half a dozen larger ones (e.g. 33 uF) which would be sourcing current to the 7805 regulator(s) while the input now sources current to the disk drives or whatever other low-impedance loads run from that supply. I'm with you about the use of switchers which save on energy and reduce waste from dissipation. However, the proposed "booster" hasn't been thought through yet. They're not very cost-effective, nor do they offer much power per buck. The problem with linear supplies is not their intolerance of high voltage inputs, but rather, my intolerance of their high temperature when operating at a high input/output ratio, as the regulator dissipates it all as heat. That's not likely to happen here, however. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:50 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:35:15 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: > >> I'm not sure that "jumpering across" the 7805 will be healthy for the 7805. >> Of course, if the input doesn't drop below the output during shutdown this >> may not be a concern. However, if there's a significant off-board load on >> the input switching supply, and significant capacitance (bypass, for >> example) on the board, it's likely to cause problems. >> >> Dick > >Hi, > >Actually that is not harmful thing. In fact, nearly all peecees of >any brands and generic of any quality short out the 3.45V regulator >via input and output to get 5V by either a jumper or a low >resistance/high current capable FET in (automatic detection type like >GX4, SP3 and such by Asus for 486). I'm sure that is same story for >the split or single voltage supply modes for Pentium class boards. > >One thing about double PSUing from one to another voltages is bit too >much to me from reliablity and cost viewpoints. Feeding 5V and >12V direct to bus is assumed that designer upsize the conductors >enough to keep voltage drops low. > >THERE is decent PSUs that can be had in any voltages in multi outputs >from one box and still be switcher. I'm all for switchers for >efficieny and less heat output of quality built. > >Most linear regulators are happy on input voltages up to 30V BTW. > >Wizard From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Aug 17 18:25:09 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: Duplicate messages Message-ID: <2d87d6b7.24eb4955@aol.com> It must be you, Pete -- no duplicates in my mailbox . . . Glen 0/0 In a message dated 8/17/99 3:23:21 PM EST, peter@joules.enterprise-plc.com writes: << Are others on th list receiving duplicte posts or is it just me. If it is general then is ot a problem with the list server or has everyone's mail client gone up the spout at the same time ;-) Regards Pete >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 18:28:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Aug 17, 99 04:10:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1646 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/35f5ffab/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Aug 17 18:53:14 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990817165148.00993ec0@mcmanis.com> At 10:54 AM 8/17/99 -0500, Jay West wrote: >I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for >$995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do >you think? Not likely, but another more interesting question is will the new ones become collectible? If this venture goes bust and there are fewer than 100 "new" IMSAIs made, that will be (in 20 years) more rare than "original" IMSAIs where several thousand were made. --Chuck From wsmith at gj.com Tue Aug 17 19:01:49 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair Message-ID: What's the best way to replace a broken belt in a DC300 tape cartridge? Is there a source for new belts? From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Aug 17 19:42:31 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990817202422.00ad3270@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:01 PM 8/17/99 -0700, Wayne Smith said something like: >What's the best way to replace a broken belt in a DC300 tape cartridge? Is >there a source for new belts? Not likely unless there was a real unusual need and someone already supplies them. Normally, the mfr (3M, Dysan, or whoever else made them) figures the user will typically throw out a defective cart and use a new one. Hence, the assumption there's likely no aftermarket supplier, especially now since DC300's have been out of popularity for several years. Best way to deal with this is to find an unusable tape with a good belt and very carefully remove it and very carefully replace it on your defective one. Probably should find one of the same manufacturer just to be safe. It's stretched rather taught and will be a real circus to replace. Got three or four arms hanging off you? :) Tony, have any thoughts on this? Do I assume correctly you have an only copy of a very important OS tape or something just as critical you're unfortunately trying to repair? Good luck. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 17 19:47:24 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <990817204724.2020056b@trailing-edge.com> >I'm not sure that "jumpering across" the 7805 will be healthy for the 7805. >Of course, if the input doesn't drop below the output during shutdown this >may not be a concern. Maybe I was unclear on what I meant by "jumpering across": you put a wire between pin 1 and pin 3 of the regulator. With such a jumper, it's impossible for the input to drop below output at the regulator. Of course, you've got to remember to remove the jumper before putting the resulting card back into a system with unregulated power busses! Like I said, regulated S-100 power busses were done by several manufacturers in the early and mid-80's with great success. It's a non-issue. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 17 19:52:54 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <990817205254.2020056b@trailing-edge.com> Eric wrote: >Tim wrote: >> According to what I read from the web page, there's a PC-clone switching >> power supply followed by a "boost" switching circuit to get back to >> +8 and +/- 16. That's not completely unreasonable, but it sounds a >> little bit fishy to me in the sketchiness of the details. >It sounds a *lot* fishy. Well, I wasn't going to say so, but indeed it does sound something like vaporware. > For the required current, it would be more >expensive to try to use a standard PC supply with custom step-up converters >on the outputs than to simply: > >1) Hack a stanard switcher > >2) Build a custom switcher > >3) Have one of the switcher manufacturers build a slightly customized model But a standard PC-clone switching supply is so common that they're almost free, so it may be the place to start. Again, I think we may be talking about vaporware, so perhaps a technical discussion about the way something should/shouldn't be done is silly when it'll never be done anyway. >I've been thinking about replacing the power supply in my IMSAI because >the transformer has shorted turns and is delaminating. I've been looking >at stuff from Vicor. Not cheap, but high quality and reliable. Certainly, there are many expensive high quality and reliable solutions to getting 8V at tens of amps and +/- 16V at a few amps. But I can't think of any really cheap solutions that are high quality and reliable. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 19:56:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: S100 box (was Re: imsai 2) Message-ID: <199908180056.AA15650@world.std.com> . I should look at this hack to see how much damage there is... likely the idiots have a PC inside wiggling the lights and thats all. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 20:01:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990817202422.00ad3270@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 17, 99 08:42:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/85d21e6a/attachment.ksh From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 18:22:39 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990817182239.269f0662@earthlink.net> Hi Tony and all, At 12:28 AM 8/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >> Also, if using a packaged 'OEM' supply unit, one is spared the >> onus of compliance with a bunch of Regulatory Agencies... UL, FCC, >> CSA, ISO..... this is the reason a lot of products came with >> 'brick' or 'wall-wart' power units... someone else has already > >It's just a pity that those wall-warts in general are _not_ safe in my >opinion (to the extent that I generally replace them with homebrew PSUs). > >Most of them have no internal fusing or thermal fuses (at least in the >UK). > In many cheap wall-warts, the primary wire is undersized and is the default fuse link. Is is scramble wound without much/any added insulation between the start of the winding and the rest of the coil, so it being the fuse is pretty common. This practice may be worse for wall-warts for charging NiCd's, where the smaller wire size provides the current limiting, especially with one or more shorted cells. -Dave From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Aug 17 20:34:46 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:51 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990817202422.00ad3270@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990817212549.00abdeb0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:01 AM 8/18/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> >> Upon the date 05:01 PM 8/17/99 -0700, Wayne Smith said something like: >> >What's the best way to replace a broken belt in a DC300 tape cartridge? Is >> >there a source for new belts? -- snip -- >> three or four arms hanging off you? :) Tony, have any thoughts on this? > >Argh! (that's me remembering what happens when you try to do this). > >The belt runs from the 'drive puck' (the roller that's driven by the >capstan in the drive), between the 2 tape spools (it rubs on the outer -- snip decent description of how to test oneself patience -- >Put the cover one, and fit the screws. > >Wind on the tape a few more turns, and try it in the drive. Start by >'retensioning' the tape. Good. I'm glad you took on the procedure. I was concerned I would use *far* too many cuss words. I tried this with one or two DC100's years ago and a DC600 and a Travan 1 cart fairly recently. Was *not* a pretty sight each time. I tossed the TR-1 cart anyway since the belt had friction damage. It only had a couple of backup procedures run on it and was fairly new when it self-destructed :( Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 17 20:40:35 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wha.....? > WHY DOES EVERYBODY THINK I'M A COMMUNIST? IN SUMMER CAMP, I WAS VOTED > MOST LIKELY TO START A COMMUNIST MOVEMENT!!! I THOUGHT WE DISCUSSED THIS! > I AM NOT A COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's nothing to be ashamed of, we're willing to look over this and love you anyway (quick glane around my room reveals books on the history of Russia, Communiasm, WWII, WWI, Atari Teenage Riot CDs.. in case you're not into "Ambient Noise and Screaming," ATR is kind of an anti-governent anti-communism group.) Kevin From a2k at one.net Tue Aug 17 20:53:47 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <001201bee8c8$a24cd4c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > So . . . Linux will use the parallel port to turn on the coffee maker, but > who'll fetch, measure, mix, and grind the beans? When does it clean out the > coffee pot and put the old coffee in the house-plants? What about the > filter? Hmmmm? > > Dick That's what the robotic arm on the second parallel port is for! Kevin From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 17 21:01:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <199908180201.AA01052@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199908180204.TAA26678@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Evertything will fly off (:-(). Try again, and after about 5 goes you'll > get it in place. Hi I remember trying to do this and it took several hours. It was a 3M tape as I recall but it did have data the needed to be saved. I don't recall how I did it but I did get it repaired. Dwight From wsmith at gj.com Tue Aug 17 21:06:22 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair Message-ID: >>> Christian Fandt 08/17 5:42 PM >>> >Do I assume correctly you have an only copy of a very important OS tape or >something just as critical you're unfortunately trying to repair? Yes. I have four original IBM 5100 data tapes (1 diagnostic and 3 BASIC Aided Instruction) all of which have broken belts. Age has taken its toll. I do have numerous other tapes, although only a few blank IBM's. The problem doesn't appear to affect the Scotch tapes, which is what I have most of. Thanks. From wsmith at gj.com Tue Aug 17 21:08:52 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair Message-ID: >>> Tony Duell 08/17 6:01 PM >>> > > Upon the date 05:01 PM 8/17/99 -0700, Wayne Smith said something like: > >What's the best way to replace a broken belt in a DC300 tape cartridge? Is > >there a source for new belts? > > Not likely unless there was a real unusual need and someone already > supplies them. Normally, the mfr (3M, Dysan, or whoever else made them) > figures the user will typically throw out a defective cart and use a new > one. Hence, the assumption there's likely no aftermarket supplier, > especially now since DC300's have been out of popularity for several years. In my experience, spares for tape cartridges are impossible to obtain, other than by dismantling a new cartridge. This is worth doing if you have a defective catridge with some important data on it. > Best way to deal with this is to find an unusable tape with a good belt and > very carefully remove it and very carefully replace it on your defective > one. Probably should find one of the same manufacturer just to be safe. > It's stretched rather taught and will be a real circus to replace. Got > three or four arms hanging off you? :) Tony, have any thoughts on this? Argh! (that's me remembering what happens when you try to do this). The belt runs from the 'drive puck' (the roller that's driven by the capstan in the drive), between the 2 tape spools (it rubs on the outer layer of tape on both spools, thus maintaining the tape tension, and causing the tape to move at constant speed), and then round one or two idlers. The better cartridges have a fixed idler (on a post fixed to the baseplate) in the bottom corners. Some lesser cartridges have a 'floating' idler between the 2 spools at the bottom. That sort is a right pain to rebuild, and some of them were glued together (particularly on the smaller tapes), and these will drive you mad! OK, assuming 2 fixed idlers and screwed-together housing. It's best if you have 2 new tapes - one to take to bits for spares, the other to show you where all the bits go. Start by undoing the screws on the bottom of the cartridge, and pull off the cover. Remove the door and its spring. Take off the empty-ish spool (unwind the few turns of tape if necessary), the idlers, drive puck and belt. Take off the full spool, making sure you don't spill tape everywhere. Clean up the rollers and housing. Now to reassemble. Put the full spool on the 'supply' side. Put the drive puck, idlers and belt in position. The belt will be fairly taught even now, and should stay in place Drop the empty spool over the other spindle. It won't drop down as the belt gets in the way. Using a cocktail stick/plastic spike/etc, hook the belt round the spool. Evertything will fly off (:-(). Try again, and after about 5 goes you'll get it in place. Run the tape round the guides and put the end in the gap between the belt and the empty spool. Hold everything in place and carefully turn the drive puck. Keep on guiding the tape until 2 or 3 turns are wound on. Counter-rotate the 2 spools to tension the tape. You will have to force them against the friction of the belt. Refit the door and spring. Often you can fit the spring into a hole on the bottom of the door, tension it, and hook the end into a slot on the door. Then drop the assembly onto its post, and finally release the spring. Put the cover one, and fit the screws. Wind on the tape a few more turns, and try it in the drive. Start by 'retensioning' the tape. -tony >>>Thanks for that great description, Tony. I don't know whether you've inspired or depressed me. ;-) Wayne ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! From elvey at hal.com Tue Aug 17 21:15:43 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908180201.AA01052@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199908180215.TAA26697@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > Then again having designed a > few, once you've done it you learn... mostly everything they taught you > was far from enough. that and fixing all those that were really not so > well designed. Hi My experience was that during the early stages of testing, I had to replace a lot of power transistors. No matter what you do, you still have to turn it on and microseconds later the fuse blows along with one or more solid state device. Still, well done switchers are more robust than most analog supplies. As a design issue, switchers do like to run at specific output currents. They are not usually happy with a large variation in loads. Because of power dissipation, I had to build a four quadrant output switcher ( essentially a switcher amplifier ). There was a lot of smoke before I got it to work right. Dwight From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Aug 17 17:32:36 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: <199908180204.TAA26678@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <199908180226.WAA14723@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:04:22 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Dwight Elvey > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re[2]: DC300 Tape Repair > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Hi > I remember trying to do this and it took several hours. > It was a 3M tape as I recall but it did have data the > needed to be saved. I don't recall how I did it but > I did get it repaired. > Dwight The trick is to have torsion on the tape itself, it's easier to have one spool wound and other spool bare of tape. AFTER band is in place first. The idea is: Put the replacement band around one side with full tape first and take the idler wheel around the band and PULL and put it on the post. Spin it around to even the band up in direction the full tape spool winds up, watch all the idler wheels are down against the plate while spinning it by hand. That band have LOT of elasticity! When I popped one off for fun, amazing how much it snapped back. About 35% of it's original size. Second job is to respool it, I have done this several times before. The trick is led the tape around the posts and feed into the take up spool and tug the tape end gently to put some torsion on the tape while keeping the drive band still. That takes some work to get it. Then carefully feed the end of the tape FLAT against the spool barrel and rotote the drive wheel to get tape wround. You don't want any space there between barrel and the tape. You can tell by gently touching the tape there if it moves. Try again till it's not. At that stage, wind it more till *ALL* optical HOLES are all past and on the "take up" spool. DONE and test, back up the data onto another good tape if required and use it as scrap data. DO IT with freshly washed hands or worn with surgical gloves, vinyl better and less allergic than latex. Oils and any dirt have no business there. Wizard From macierno at cvm.msstate.edu Tue Aug 17 22:35:39 1999 From: macierno at cvm.msstate.edu (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: questions about NeXT & VAX Systems.... Message-ID: two unrelated questions: first : where can I find software/support for my NeXT computer on the web...... searching the web for quite a while has not produced any good sites..... Also, I'm looking for an old but WORKING Microvax or VAXStation on which to run (read : play with) VMS -- anyone have any good ideas on where to look - i've been watching ebay but most systems that come up for auction look like "fixer upers" or are expensive. I just need the basics....... thanx mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 17 21:56:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: questions about NeXT & VAX Systems.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >two unrelated questions: > >first : where can I find software/support for my NeXT computer on the >web...... searching the web for quite a while has not produced any good >sites.... Hmmm, most of the links aren't on this system, but: http://www.peak.org/next/index.html is first rate, I HIGHLY recommend snagging the "Lighthouse Apps" under "Apps". They're commercial software such as a Word Processor, Database, Graphics, etc. that have been released to the user community. ftp://eclipse.its.rpi.edu/NeXT/ >Also, I'm looking for an old but WORKING Microvax or VAXStation on which to >run (read : play with) VMS -- anyone have any good ideas on where to look - >i've been watching ebay but most systems that come up for auction look like >"fixer upers" or are expensive. I just need the basics....... Watch comp.sys.vms, might take a while, but you should be able to find a good deal there. Also, don't limit yourself to VAXen if your main reason for wanting one is for VMS, you might find a decent first generation Alpha for less than a good VAX. If you do get a VAX, do yourself a favor and get one that is new enough to have SCSI. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 21:54:21 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <001601bee924$f966a220$0400c0a8@winbook> Assuming you've used a real wire, it certainly will keep the two points at the same potential. I thought you meant bypassing the already installed regulator by attaching a feed directly from the power supply, which indicates what I was thinking rather than what I should have been. What I was trying to envision is what kind of external booster they intend to put on a PC PSU. I can't imagine any worse sort of arrangement, though. By this I mean that the one functional component which seems to fail most is the power supply. WHile I've only had about half a dozen motherboards die over the years, I've got a 55-gal drumful of dead power supplies, on most of which the fan is what failed. In many cases, the fan fails and then the supply gets hot and dies. The common PC PSU is overdesigned by a fair amount. I doubt that a single 250-watt PSU is adequate for a typical S-100 setup. I know, that's 50 Amps on the +5! I've never seen one supply, even a 450-watt server supply that could approach its rated loading. They're out there, I'm sure, but I've never encountered one. Back to IMSAI's problem . . . I can't see financial justification for booster supplies from a PC PSU when you can buy a 450-watt open-frame switcher and set the outputs to the required voltage and be done with it. A day's work behind making the decision will eat up all the savings associated with using a PC PSU. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >>I'm not sure that "jumpering across" the 7805 will be healthy for the 7805. >>Of course, if the input doesn't drop below the output during shutdown this >>may not be a concern. > >Maybe I was unclear on what I meant by "jumpering across": you put a >wire between pin 1 and pin 3 of the regulator. With such a jumper, >it's impossible for the input to drop below output at the regulator. > >Of course, you've got to remember to remove the jumper before putting >the resulting card back into a system with unregulated power busses! > >Like I said, regulated S-100 power busses were done by several manufacturers >in the early and mid-80's with great success. It's a non-issue. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Aug 17 22:08:57 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: First laptop? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990817192437.29b71f70@ricochet.net> At 05:49 AM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote: >While the Epson HX-20 can lay claim to being the first laptop, it had some Epson HX-20 was the first laptop-sized computer. Toshiba claims they coined (and trademarked) the term "laptop", beginning with their T-1100. I'm going to have to chase down that Byte reference; I seem to remember "lap-computer". The m100, being a fair bit more usable and available, became a hit with journalists, and got quite a bit more fame. >Now, does anyone know which the first notebook was? Was it the Grid >Compass, or the DG/One? Or something else I've never heard of? GRiD Compass, in Fall '82, followed by the Sharp PC-5000 and the Gavilan (both in '83; I'm still trying to find out which came first.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Aug 17 22:08:58 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: First laptop? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990817192855.298758b8@ricochet.net> At 10:31 AM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote: >> The TRS-80 Model 100 had a much more useable 40x8 character display. The >> Model 100 also had a built-in editor, address book, schedule, and > >The real question is who made it for tandy and what other name did it sell >as? It was available as: NEC PC-8201 * NEC PC-8201A * Olivetti M10 * Kyocera KC-85 * Tandy M100 * Tandy M102 * and later, upgraded as: NEC PC-8300 Tandy M200 * The NEC PC-8201 was the Japanese version of the 8201A. Followups that were *not* related include: NEC PC-8401A * Olivetti M15 * Tandy M600 * I'm not sure about the NEC PC-8500 though. * Examples I have -- I'm looking for an 8300 and would like a non-modified m102. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Aug 17 22:08:58 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990817200259.2987b2b0@ricochet.net> At 10:01 AM 8/17/99 -0400, you wrote: >It's a ZENITH Luggable computer. Looks kinda like a COMPAQ suitcase >computer. Although it could be a tad smaller. The unsual thing about it is Bigger. Quite a bit bigger. And heavier. Take a look at: http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150a.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150b.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150c.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150d.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150e.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150f.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150g.jpg http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150h.jpg and see if it's the same thing. If so, it's basically a portable pc; nothing fancy, nothing special, except its hugeness. >It's priced at $30 but, I could probably get it for about $20. Is it worth >collecting? $20 might be a little high. For $10 it's definitely worth getting; If you like it or collect portables, $20 is okay. I'd hate to have to pay shipping. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 22:14:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <004701bee927$cb8a7e00$0400c0a8@winbook> well . . . back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and IMSAI was a major computer maker, the 25.2VCT was about as common as its companion, the 6.3V filament heater (starting to sound familiar?) and there were a few supplies which got away with that. If you filtered well and used only one diode at a time, you still had enough headroom to allow for 2.2 forward volts in the regulator. I've got switchers in the basement which have adjustable voltages for three (5-10Vdc, +/-12-18Vdc). The previous statement that switchers like a constant load is quite correct, though and what is meant there is that the switchers don't like capacitive loading, nor do they like loads which are intermittently on. S-100 boxes sometimes housed floppy and hard drives, though, and if it was only the 5-1/4" types, and floppies only, the +12 saw its worst nightmare. It saw nearly fully on, vs nearly fully off, since one floppy took more +12 than all the RS232 ports. I don't know where they're going to end up, but I believe that the power supply thing will have toox have quite a bit more attention than it's gotten so far. My advice to anyone wishing to sell hardware in the quantities they're likely to sell, would be to build a kit, no assembled units, find a catalog standard switcher to sell them, and use the fact that it's all just spare parts to bypass the FCC reg's. Sell the box top, sell the box bottom, the front, the rear, but no fully assembled boxes. Sell the front panel as a replacement part, too. That way there's no enclosure to require approval. What's more, it will make the phone support burden lighter. If they want a fully assembled and tested unit, tell them to buy a PC. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:00 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 ><16V lines and a 6V one for the 8V line (those should produce DC voltages > >Then you'd end up with the piece of crap altair supply... > > >Because any error means all your silicon is junk. Also if you make a >small error the core you using could get quite hot. Or maybe the ripple >from switching exceeds the reasonable level by say a volt or two. Then >there are the high current ground loops that cause instability at >something approaching max load or minimum load. The worst is when you >forget the chopper side has 300V on it, S*!^^ d@**. The number of >errors that can be made are far higher. Then again having designed a >few, once you've done it you learn... mostly everything they taught you >was far from enough. that and fixing all those that were really not so >well designed. > >Allison > From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 17 22:13:55 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Apple I on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You're assuming this will go at the current price, which is below the > reserve, which I am sure is no less than $40-50K. I know the guy selling, > and he won't take anything less than $40K for it, last I spoke to him. Yes, the price will shoot up in the last moments of the auction, but I think even a final five figure price will be a bargain. > It's not the "Holy Grail". Its not the 1st Apple 1 as was advertised > during the much publicized auction. The actual 1st Apple 1, as given to > Liza Loop by The Woz himself, still resides in the Silicon Valley. As a class of machines, I would call it the "Holy Grail". Certainly there have been machines that have been rarer, had a bigger impact on people and engineering, or effected business in some way, but so far, the Apple 1s take the prize for prestige. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From sms at antinode.org Tue Aug 17 22:17:03 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <99081722170385@antinode.org> From: "Richard Erlacher" > Assuming you've used a real wire, it certainly will keep the two points > at the same potential. I love to see an idealist. Is your wire carrying zero current, or is it a superconductor? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 612-785-2000 ext. 16 (voice) Provis Corporation (+1) 612-785-2100 (facsimile) 5251 Program Avenue #100 sms@provis.com (e-mail) Mounds View, MN 55112-4975 sms@antinode.org (e-mail 2) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Aug 17 22:18:37 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: questions about NeXT & VAX Systems.... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 17, 1999 07:56:56 PM Message-ID: <199908180318.VAA22108@calico.litterbox.com> > Watch comp.sys.vms, might take a while, but you should be able to find a > good deal there. Also, don't limit yourself to VAXen if your main reason > for wanting one is for VMS, you might find a decent first generation Alpha > for less than a good VAX. If you do get a VAX, do yourself a favor and get > one that is new enough to have SCSI. I bought my vaxstation 3100 (nice little pizza box SCSI vax) from Tim Shoppa. If he's got more, I'd recommend dealing with him. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 17 23:21:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990817202422.00ad3270@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990817232129.23472b08@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:42 PM 8/17/99 -0400, Chris wrote: >Upon the date 05:01 PM 8/17/99 -0700, Wayne Smith said something like: >>What's the best way to replace a broken belt in a DC300 tape cartridge? Is >>there a source for new belts? > >Not likely unless there was a real unusual need and someone already >supplies them. Normally, the mfr (3M, Dysan, or whoever else made them) >figures the user will typically throw out a defective cart and use a new >one. Hence, the assumption there's likely no aftermarket supplier, >especially now since DC300's have been out of popularity for several years. FWIW I have a service manual from HP for a machine that uses the same style but smaller DC-1000 tapes. HP tells how to replace the belts and also says to remove them from another tape cartridge. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 17 23:27:04 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990817232704.4787fa40@mailhost.intellistar.net> Whoa! Original IBM 5100 tapes! I'll gladly donate some new 3M tapes if you'll make copies of your stuff for me and my 5100. > The problem doesn't appear to affect the Scotch tapes, which is what I have most of. Funny, I found that in the DC-1000 tapes, the HPs were the worst. The DEC tapes almost never fail. Joe At 07:06 PM 8/17/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>> Christian Fandt 08/17 5:42 PM >>> >>Do I assume correctly you have an only copy of a very important OS tape or >>something just as critical you're unfortunately trying to repair? > >Yes. I have four original IBM 5100 data tapes (1 diagnostic and 3 BASIC Aided Instruction) all of which have broken belts. Age has taken its toll. I do have numerous other tapes, although only a few blank IBM's. The problem doesn't appear to affect the Scotch tapes, which is what I have most of. > >Thanks. > > From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Aug 17 18:27:26 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <001601bee924$f966a220$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908180321.XAA22724@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:54:21 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: > Ship! > WHile I've only had about half a dozen motherboards die over the years, I've > got a 55-gal drumful of dead power supplies, on most of which the fan is > what failed. In many cases, the fan fails and then the supply gets hot and > dies. Snip! The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so for a typical 200W PSU. If one have a Astec, SPI any decent quality make with ball bearing fan, count on it that it will keep working and working and fewer problems, mystery rebootings etc. We also have seen one or two blow out most of guts in peecee by a bad quality PSU made by Evermax model. And few ATX PSUs in row that it acted like reset button that resets machine by simply push on that bottom pan where circuit board is. Those PSUs were only few months old. (!!) This one I think was also by Enermax or one other I forgot. Most of old out of warrenty PSUs were caught early with gummed or worn out fans and we simply replaced it with sunon ball bearing fan type. And on other items we solved this problems by only selling ONE BRAND, Aceropen for cases and cdrom drives. Seems that two items Acer shines well. That 55 gal drum of that PSUs, I bet all were sleeve bearing fans and low quality overall. Also capacitors all dried up in some, blown switchers, diode network. Blown out main transformer is thankfully rare. Wizard From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 22:23:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: questions about NeXT & VAX Systems.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, mark acierno wrote: > two unrelated questions: > > first : where can I find software/support for my NeXT computer on the > web...... searching the web for quite a while has not produced any good > sites..... Visit the VCF links page: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm Then scroll down to the NeXT Resources section (or use your web browser to search on NeXT). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 17 22:25:07 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm pretty sure you can get custom-wound transformers for a lot less than > that if you want a reasonable quantity, And if you want one or two, wind > them yourself using one of those transformer kits. Custom iron these days is VERY expensive, simply because it is falling out of favor. To get to a reasonable price, one has to order many thousands just to get over the bump caused by the "tooling" charges. It is simply too hard to beat the massive price adavntage that the common PeeCee supplies have. When I worked ar USR, I had access to the parts database, and it would astound you how much some things cost (and also how cheap other things are). Basically, unless you are ordering 20000 or more of any piece per year of any type of custom or semi-custom part, you are going to pay thru the nose. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From max82 at surfree.com Tue Aug 17 23:04:49 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, LordTyran wrote: >On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> So . . . Linux will use the parallel port to turn on the coffee maker, but >> who'll fetch, measure, mix, and grind the beans? When does it clean out the >> coffee pot and put the old coffee in the house-plants? What about the >> filter? Hmmmm? >That's what the robotic arm on the second parallel port is for! Has anyone here seen Brazil? It's an excellent black comedy by Terry Gilliam. Anyway, near the beginning, there is shown an automated routine helping the main character get up. A TV pops out of the wall, a ball falls and plugs the bathtub while the taps turn on, two pieces of bread pop out of a toaster, and the coffee machine pours coffee on them. You have to see it.... As pertaining to classic computers, the movie also has a brilliant parody of computers. They look like very old-fashioned teletypes with a bare (the entire CRT and circuitry is open to view) screen about 4" diagonal enlarged by a huge flat magnifying glass. Again, you have to see it... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 17 23:15:18 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: S100 box (was Re: imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <199908180056.AA15650@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990817211518.0343e8d4@agora.rdrop.com> Gee... now I could have SWORN that I did not send that original reply to the list... B^} But since it has started down this path... (and its just been ONE of those days...) -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> ...For someone doing s100 and wanting a real FP machine that would be handy. >> Though I'd only want the box and PS so I could put in one of those >> Godbout smart frontpannels with the octal keypad and one of their low >> noise backplanes. And on Tue, 17 Aug 1999 jimw@agora.rdrop.com foolishly replied... > Well... if it did not have to be an IMSAI chassis specifically, I've got a > number of S100 chassis from various vendors stacked in the warehouse that > could be had reasonably... > Say... trade for neat PDP-8 stuffies or similar? B^} And then Tue, 17 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >Smoking wacky weed? I have two NS*, one Altair, a CCS, Compupro and one >of my own nightmares (split bus so there are three s100 busses that only >share power). Then there were a dozen or so Intergrand and TEI cases >I practically gave away. -------------------------------------------------------------------- To the first question, (last paragraph) actually no. I'm quite loopy enough without any external/artificial assists. So, excuse the random attempt to respond to what I obviously misintrepreted as a possible item of interest. (first quoted paragraph, second sentence) Apparently my context filter failed... And while I'm starting down the course of vying for the designation of semi-quasi-official John Dvorak stand-in for the VCF (a person that we all love to hate but he is much nicer in person), I'm going to take issue with another quote seen floating around in the last couple of hours: -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 someone wrote: (in the imsai 2 thread) Ahem... (with regard to the last line immediately above) Get Stuffed! [ nothing personal, note lack of smilies, I'm addressing the comment, not the writer ] Now, a quick comment in attempt at explanation before the flames come sailing my way. To all the people who constantly hold up the Altair (in particular), and other similar items of the period as "crap", I would like to ask one question: If a capable group of people (please note the non-specific reference here) were available and were such hot $#!* in 1975, why didn't they produce something better??? Twenty-Five years after the fact it is far too easy to pronounce judgements on the past, judged against the current 'state of the art'. But was anything learned from it? In comparison to todays cars, the Model T was CRAP but I don't see it constantly being held up to ridicule. It, like the Altair and many other early developments were done with the materials and skills that were available AT THE TIME to the PEOPLE who got off their duffs and DID IT! And all indications are that much was learned from it, as evidenced by the rapid followups by improved units like the IMSAI, the SOL, and even the ALTAIR 'B' series. In every revolution, someone has to be the first... and guess what? RARELY are they the shining example of the art that it seems like some expect that the Altair and its ilk should have been. More often, they are the unskilled visionaries, the hacks, the garage bands, the hobbyists, or even just someone out to make a quick buck and bail. Maybe this is why it has been so hard to get people really interested in the HISTORY behind computers. It has just happened all too fast, and there has not been enough time for the whole art (science if you prefer) to gain any respect. Too few people out there today who are involved with computers at some level (leaving out the techno-millionaires who made their chunk and split or just don't care anymore) can recall a time when there were not computers in the home of the school. To them the computer is just another commodity item. Another appliance... Or we get the people that came from the jobs that some of up would died for back then. Working with 'real computers', built by well trained (I like to believe) people in 'real companies', with a 'real goal' ahead of them... Reality check folks, that was a whole other world from the reality that some of us grew up in! Small wonder that today it is hard to get the "real" organizations (museums, corporations, etc.) interested. The people who give a D@#n aren't in the popular demographic with all of the easily accessible money, so they don't exist to the 'bean counters' who actually drive the show from behind the guilded curtains. So, (not that anything I will ever say is likely to stop anyone) call it what you will, but to some few of us who were still in awe of computers back in 1975, and the Altair or some similar device was the first computer that we could ever call our own, it was magic! ...and thanks again to Sellam for having the cajones to make things like the Vintage Computer Festival happen! (does he fit in the 'unskilled visionary' catagory?) B^} -jim (some days I'm just so tired of the whole thing I'd trade it straight across for a bowling alley in some nice quiet town) --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 17 23:22:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > As pertaining to classic computers, the movie also has a brilliant parody > of computers. They look like very old-fashioned teletypes with a bare (the > entire CRT and circuitry is open to view) screen about 4" diagonal > enlarged by a huge flat magnifying glass. Again, you have to see it... Sounds a lot like the computer props in that old Max Headroom TV series (anyone ever watch that? It was mildly cool). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 23:44:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <005e01bee934$6d829c40$0400c0a8@winbook> No idealization here . . . just an approximation. let's see . . . #12 wire . . . 0.3" long . . . 7805 maxxes at about 1.2 amps with a good heatsink . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: sms@antinode.org To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:15 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > >> Assuming you've used a real wire, it certainly will keep the two points >> at the same potential. > > I love to see an idealist. Is your wire carrying zero current, or is >it a superconductor? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda (+1) 612-785-2000 ext. 16 (voice) > Provis Corporation (+1) 612-785-2100 (facsimile) > 5251 Program Avenue #100 sms@provis.com (e-mail) > Mounds View, MN 55112-4975 sms@antinode.org (e-mail 2) From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Aug 17 23:53:19 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop In-Reply-To: <01BEE897.88A31F10.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990817215319.0098c530@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:01 17-08-1999 -0400, you wrote: >On another note: I picked up a couple of real nice "Media Cabinets" for $25 >each. They're 7 feet tall, 18 inches deep, and 3 feet wide. They have >lockable roll-down doors (tambour), they're made of steel, and weigh a TON! >Great storage at a great price. Yep! Those are likely some examples of the early 'Wright Line' cabinets. You can get all kinds of inside accessories for them to store just about any kind of media or books you can imagine. If you're really lucky, you may find one of their later 'OptiMedia' line (as I did). They can be distinguished by the fact that their tambor doors go side-to-side instead of vertically. Wright Line is still very much in business, and they're happy to sell accessories. Check them on the web at www.wrightline.com. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 17 23:53:43 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <006901bee935$a6216ee0$0400c0a8@winbook> -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:20 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:54:21 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: >> >Ship! > >> WHile I've only had about half a dozen motherboards die over the years, I've >> got a 55-gal drumful of dead power supplies, on most of which the fan is >> what failed. In many cases, the fan fails and then the supply gets hot and >> dies. > >Snip! > >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so >for a typical 200W PSU. >If one have a Astec, SPI any decent quality make with ball bearing >fan, count on it that it will keep working and working and fewer >problems, mystery rebootings etc. > So what does one of these PSU's with a fan that lasts cost? > >We also have seen one or two blow out most of guts in peecee by a bad >quality PSU made by Evermax model. And few ATX PSUs in row that it >acted like reset button that resets machine by simply push on that >bottom pan where circuit board is. Those PSUs were only few months >old. (!!) This one I think was also by Enermax or one other I >forgot. Most of old out of warrenty PSUs were caught early with >gummed or worn out fans and we simply replaced it with sunon ball >bearing fan type. And on other items we solved this problems by only >selling ONE BRAND, Aceropen for cases and cdrom drives. Seems that >two items Acer shines well. > >That 55 gal drum of that PSUs, I bet all were sleeve bearing fans and >low quality overall. Also capacitors all dried up in some, blown >switchers, diode network. Blown out main transformer is thankfully >rare. > > Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not hard to figure out which they were . . . and they're marked 230 or 250 watts, BTW. > >Wizard From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Aug 18 00:09:02 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: New arrival: Son of Digi-Comp? Message-ID: Ok, perhaps stretching a point... an E.S.R. "Dr. Nim". It plays (can you guess?)... Nim! and some variations. Pix in the usual places... B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From fpp at concentric.net Wed Aug 18 01:32:17 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: First laptop? Message-ID: <003701bee943$6bb5a6a0$16c1adce@paul> How about this? According to a close friend, Epson referred to him as Mr. HX no less, says it was the first. he even wrote some software to make the computer "wake up" every few days using the internal clock and print out "I miss Bob" while he was on vacation. So I'd have to agree its was the first. But is the TRS 80 handheld the first palmtop? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 01:37:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: VCF 3.0 Speakers Announced! Message-ID: The VCF 3.0 speakers have been announced! For the speaker list and speaker bio's check out http://www.vintage.org/vcf/speakers.htm (Not all speaker bio's are in yet but should be updated within the next few days). There's still about a month to pre-register and save $$$... http://www.vintage.org/vcf/register.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 01:40:34 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: First laptop? In-Reply-To: <003701bee943$6bb5a6a0$16c1adce@paul> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Paul Passmore wrote: > How about this? According to a close friend, Epson referred to him as Mr. HX > no less, says it was the first. he even wrote some software to make the > computer "wake up" every few days using the internal clock and print out "I > miss Bob" while he was on vacation. So I'd have to agree its was the first. It might seem a petty detail, but the HC-20 was definitely before the HX-20. I had an HC well before the HX existed. The HX is the HC with a different color scheme, and removal of the Katakana from both the keyboard and the ROMs. > But is the TRS 80 handheld the first palmtop? Not sure, but I think that Sharp released it under their own name BEFORE they started putting Radio Shack's nametags on it. Also, can somebody tell me what the dividing line is between "laptop" and "notebook"?? Offhand, I'd be inclined to call the HX and HC "notebook", and call the Gavilan and Grid "laptop". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 01:42:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: VCF 3.0 Announcement Message-ID: Parallax Inc. and Dr. Dobb's Journal proudly present... The Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 October 2nd & 3rd Santa Clara Convention Center Santa Clara, California www.vintage.org For the third year in a row, the Vintage Computer Festival is back to thrill and amaze you with the history of one of the greatest inventions in all of mankind, the computer! The Vintage Computer Festival is for YOU! We don't care which computer you think is the best. We don't care what machine you grew up with, or first fell in love with, or still use today. The VCF is a celebration of computers and their history! Come share the joy of computing!!! This year: * More great speakers! * More great exhibits! * More great vendors with Cool Stuff to sell! * More fun games and contests, including the Nerd Trivia Challenge! * Tour The Computer Museum History Center! * And of course, FREE STUFF!! In short, plenty of stuff to indulge all your SENSES: HEAR the speakers! SEE vintage computers! TOUCH them too! SMELL their electronics! But please don't TASTE them! "The mission of the Vintage Computer Festival is to promote the preservation of 'obsolete' computers by allowing attendees to experience the technologies, stories and people that embody the remarkable tale of the computer revolution." If you haven't yet experienced the VCF, DON'T MISS THIS ONE!!! Register Early and $AVE! Register by September 15 and pay only $20 per person. That includes access to the entire event all weekend, including the speakers, the exhibit and the flea market. Kids 17 and under are admitted free, and as always, parking is free too! To pre-register, send a check or money order to: Vintage Computer Festival 4275 Rosewood Drive PMB#29-161 Pleasanton, California 94588 For ultimate convenience, please visit the VCF website for more information as well as a handy registration form ready to print. http://www.vintage.org/vcf/register.htm The Speakers Horst Zuse Horst, the eldest son of early digital computer pioneer Konrad Zuse, will be giving a lecture on his late father's machines and will focus on the computer businesses that Konrad later founded to market his ideas. Jon Titus Who can forget one of the earliest of kit microcomputers, the Mark-8? Jon designed the Mark-8 around Intel's 8008 microprocessor and wrote the construction article that appeared in the July 1974 issue of Radio Electronics--a milestone in microcomputer history. Todd Fischer Todd bought the assets of IMSAI after their bankruptcy and continued to manufacture and sell IMSAI products under the Fischer-Frietas Corporation. Todd consulted with MGM for the movie _War Games_ and, as a treat, will be bringing along for show and tell the actual IMSAI 8080 computer that co-starred in the film. Michael Wise Mike contends that his Sphere Computer circa 1975 is in fact the first integrated "Personal Computer". Some people think he has a valid claim to that title. Come hear his story and decide for yourself. Stan Veit Stan is an early chronicler of the microcomputer revolution, and also a participant. Stan started one of America's first computer stores in New York, and in the process forged relationships with some of today's revered pioneers, including Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, whom he shared a booth with at the first West Coast Computer Faire where the Apple ][ was debuted to the world. Ed Kramer Ed has been creating computer graphics since the days when it was done using mainly analog video devices. Today he's a Sequence Supervisor for Industrial Light & Magic doing computer generated graphics and special effects for such films as "Deep Impact", "The Mummy" and "Star Wars: The Phantom Menace". Jim Willing Our admired and beloved VCF Celebrity, Jim will wax philosophic on various themes of stupendous relevance. This year, Jim will help the aspiring vintage computer collector restore their machines to operating condition with "Debugging for Dummies", and will also give you tips to help you revive ancient copies of your favorite computer games in "Dead Media Society". Liza Loop Liza heads up the LO*OP Center, a non-profit organization dedicated to improving education through innovative thinking.  Liza introduced the first Apple into public schools in 1976 (in fact the first Apple 1, given to her by Steve Wozniak) and the world has never been the same since. Liza will be bringing along the Apple 1 and other historic machines for show and tell. Eugene Kim Eugene recently left Dr. Dobb's Journal as Senior Technical Editor to start his own consulting firm. He'll be giving a lecture on the history of free software, a very relevant topic considering the free-software movement is in full force in today's computing arena as evidenced by the escalating adoption of GNU/Linux. Curt Vendel Curt is the founder of the Atari Historical Society (check out his great website at http://www.atari-history.com) and has amassed an amazing collection of Atari artifacts and company history, including some one-of-a-kind Atari prototypes. Curt will be bringing along some of these prototypes for show and tell. Roger Sinasohn Roger is an avid collector of early portable computers and will be giving a talk on the history of the Kyocera 85, a.k.a. the Tandy Model 100, a.k.a. the Olivetti M10, a.k.a. the NEC PC-8201A. Doug Salot Doug's research has uncovered what he believes to be the first "personal computer". Forget the Apple ][, the Altair or even the Alto. Doug's pick as first PC goes all the way back to the 1950's. Designed by Edmund Berkeley, an unsung hero of computer history, Doug intends to win Berkeley the prominance and praise that he feels is much deserved by this virtually unknown computer visionary. Plus! Workshops by Parallax on their amazing little BASIC Stamp. Get a preview of this cool little device by visiting their website at http://www.parallaxinc.com. For complete speaker information and schedules, point your favorite web page viewing software at http://www.vintage.org/vcf/speakers.htm. The Vintage Computer Faire and Exhibition This year, the Vintage Computer Festival exhibit will feature the exhibits of individual collectors, all vying to win first, second or third place in eleven categories, plus the coveted "Best of Show" award. The winner of the "Best of Show" ribbon will also win fabulous prizes. This year, we want YOU to exhibit the pride of your collection. What better way to demonstrate your enthusiasm for your hobby than to be an exhibitor at the Vintage Computer Festival. Exhibitor information can be found on the Vintage Computer Festival website (http://www.vintage.org/vcf/exhibit.htm). The Vintage Computer Flea Market Every year the best deals on vintage computer items can be found at the Vintage Computer Flea Market. Here are only a few of the amazing items sold at last year's flea market: * Apple 1 (no, we're NOT kidding!) * SWTPc 6800 * A rare computer by "the digital group" * Morrow Decision 1 (S-100) * California Computer Systems (S-100) * Apple Lisa 2 * And much, much more!! If you've got old computer stuff that you'd like to sell, there's no better place than the Vintage Computer Flea Market at the Vintage Computer Festival. Please visit our website for rates and regulations (http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vendor.htm). The Nerd Trivia Challenge! Hey trivia fans! Think you got what it takes to survive the Nerd Trivia Challenge? If you qualify, you'll be pitted against two other players in a battle to determine who is the undisputed master of computer history trivia. Answer the most questions correctly and you could walk away with $50 in cash plus some other nifty prizes. Lightweights need not apply, this contest is geared towards the serious computer history enthusiast. For contest rules please visit http://www.vintage.org/vcf/ntc.htm. Tour The Computer Museum History Center! The Computer Museum History Center boasts the largest collection of historic computer artifacts in the world. Their collection includes rare, one-of-a-kind computers and artifacts that date back to the early part of the century and beyond. A tour of the History Center's "Visible Storage" warehouse will be organized on Sunday, October 3. Tickets are limited and so advanced registration is recommended. FYI: The History Center is on the move, and is thrilled to announce plans to build a permanent museum to be dedicated by 2007. You can help the History Center achieve its goal by becoming a member. Information about becoming a member of the History Center can be found at http://www.computer-history.org. Meet Fellow Computer Collectors! The VCF is the premier gathering for collectors of vintage computers. What better way to enjoy your hobby than by meeting other like-minded individuals to share stories and information about your computer collection. Register in advance by September 15 and save $$$! Visit http://www.vintage.org/vcf/register.htm for details. Visit our Sponsors! Without our sponsors, the Vintage Computer Festival could not be a reality. It is our wonderful sponsors that enabled us to bring you the Vintage Computer Festival year after year. Demonstrate your appreciation by visiting them on the web: Parallax, Inc. http://www.parallaxinc.com Parallax manufactures the BASIC Stamp, a versatile microcontroller with a built-in BASIC language that is suitable for most any electronics and computer hobbyist project. Dr. Dobb's Journal http://www.ddj.com Dr. Dobb's Journal is the oldest continually running microcomputer journal, in existence since 1975. It features monthly articles and columns geared towards the computer programming professional. EOF Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Aug 17 19:03:52 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine)" (Aug 17, 15:04) References: Message-ID: <9908180103.ZM7000@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 17, 15:04, Don Maslin wrote: > Subject: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Actually, Tetley, and Taylors of Harrogate. > > Lovely little town - don't know about the tea. We spent a night there > some years back and had a truly excellent dinner at the Brasserie along > with some top notch jazz from a local group. Memorable evening. Yes, it's a nice place. I live in York, about 25 miles away -- and Taylors have a branch here too. They also own Betty's, which is a famous cafe. Actually, Taylor's are better know here for coffee than tea... If you're ever in that part of the world again, drop me line and say hello. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 03:17:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: (fwd) coco stuff for sale (fwd) Message-ID: Found on the Usenet... Send response to bbaker@hal-pc.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bruce R. Baker Newsgroups: comp.os.os9 Subject: coco stuff for sale Date: Tue, 10 Aug 99 16:42:09 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 60 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.93.4.2 Xref: psyber.com comp.os.os9:3431 Look, all this for $60.00 > TRS-80 Color Computer Sell List > August 9, 1999 > > Color Computer 3 Extended Basic Manual by Microsoft and Microware > Color Basic and Extended Basic Quick Reference Guide,for Coco 2 > Part 1: Introduction to BASIC, Student Manual Cat: 26-2151 > Micropilot Manual and Reference Guild for TRS-80 (no disks) Cat: 26-2718 > Getting Started with Color Basic (for Coco 2) - 2 copies > Going Ahead with Extended Color Basic (TRS-80 Color Computer) > Space Assault by Radio Shack ROM only Cat: 26-3060 > Polaris by Radio Shack, ROM and manual Cat: 26-3065 > Roman Checkers by Radio Shack, ROM and manual Cat: 26-3071 > Slay the Nereis by Radio Shack, ROM with manual Cat: 26-3086 > Doubleback by Radio Shack, ROM only Cat: 26-3091 > Androne by Radio Shack, ROM only Cat: 26-3096 > Dragonfire by Radio Shack ROM only (128k Coco) Cat: 26-3098 > Flightsim I by Tandy, 2 copies of disk and manual (32k Coco) Cat: 26-3108 > Electronic Book (for TRS-80), Shapemaker, Number Factory, and Maze Master > Cat: 26-3141 > Cave Walker, disk only, 2 copies Cat: 26-3246 > Deskmate by Tandy disk, manual, and box (64k Coco) Cat: 26-3259 > Biosphere, disk only Cat: 26-3280 > Pegasus and the Phantom Riders, disk only (64k Coco) Cat: 26-3281 > Pitstop II by Epyx includes disk and manual (64k Coco) Cat: 26-3282 > Pitstop II, disk only (64k Coco) Cat: 26-3282 > Robot Odyssey I by The Learning Company, disk, manual and box (for 64k Coco) > Cat: 26-3284 > Robot Odyssey I by The Learning Company, disk only Cat: 26-3284 > Pitfall II, disk only (64k Coco) Cat: 26-3287 > Shamus, disk only, 2 copies Cat: 26-3289 > Desert Rider, disk only (32k Coco) Cat: 26-3292 > The Dallas Quest by Datasoft includes disk and manual Cat: 26-3294 > The Dallas Quest, disk only, Cat: 26-3294 > Interbank Incident by Tandy, 3 disks. manual, and box (for OS-9 Coco) > Cat: 26-3296 > Graphic Pak Manual Cat: 26-3157 > Pyramid 2000 (manuals only), 2 copies Cat: 26-3310 > Number Stumper Manual by The Learning Company (manual only) > Word Spinner Manual by The Learning Company (manual only) > Learn about Sounds in Reading (box and manual only) > Hangword/Scramble B5 Software, for 32k Coco computer > Sword of Roshon for Model III, cassette and manual (16k Coco) Cat: 26-1918 > Compac Manual, cassette tape and cable (16k Coco) Cat: 26-3330 > > Beginners Guide for Personal Computers by Forrest Mims, III 2nd Edition > @ 1983 Cat: 62-2003 > Understanding Digital Computers by Forrest Mims, III Cat: 62-2027 > Basic Conversion Handbook by Brain, Oviate, Paquin, and Stone Cat: 62-2088 > Color Computer Programs by Rugg and Feldman Cat: 62-2313 > I will sell the whole lot for $60.00. plus shipping!! Anyone want any off these things? $5.00 per item but you get quantity discounts. Make me an offer! > > Bruce Baker, Houston, Texas send response to bbaker@hal-pc.org if you can. --- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Aug 18 02:26:20 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <006901bee935$a6216ee0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908181120.HAA21812@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:53:43 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: > > -----Original Message----- > From: jpero@cgocable.net > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:20 PM > Subject: Re: imsai 2 Snip! > >If one have a Astec, SPI any decent quality make with ball bearing > >fan, count on it that it will keep working and working and fewer > >problems, mystery rebootings etc. > > > So what does one of these PSU's with a fan that lasts cost? Very minimal actually if the decent PSU have this type of fan already installed as stock. Too many PSU has 85 C capacitors and MOST of them was dried out. Happened to me and successfully rebuilt mine and several more. Many PSUs that I seen that kept going used 105C, And mostly true in laptop PSU bricks especially if it's straight from brand like IBM, compaq, etc. The PSU area shouldn't be cut corners IHMO. That saves your troubles and keep good reputation up. No wonder IBM designed their PSUs and that shows and still good for more years to go. Yeah there was few bad apples but that's very tame compared to peecee PSUs crap unless one is using good PSU type. > > > Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 > in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not > hard to figure out which they were . . . and they're marked 230 or 250 > watts, BTW. > > No no, faulty way of looking at cost and there's a way. Not 40 dollars for that FAN! Buy Astec, SPI or something like that has same features of quality PSUs for example they cost about 10 to 20 dollars more than a cheapie PSU. And ready to go into cases to sell or to replace a junk PSUs. When that surviving PSU with bad fan came in we simply replace it with a Sanon ball bearing type fan that cost $10 and that PSUs that got rescued lasted LONGER and quieter. But to state more clearly, my opinions: Not worth our time to doodle with cheap PSUs. Remember to keep mind, I rebuilt several and I can tell you that is very expensive to do even without labor cost. Even just total cap rebuild cost about the same as a decent PSU all up with good stuff inside plus new fan. I recall about 40 to 60 for a whole decent PSU and done with. On upside, those good PSUs run quietly and smooth and lot of air moved. DITTO to cpu heatsinks and fans problems. :-( Too many were sleeve bearing types and even "good" ones I found heatsink surface warped. Since we started to sell boxed CPUs, heatsinks problems went down and for other stuff we sell ball bearing heatsinks. To see how common we have to deal with this, last monday replaced a cpu heatsink and we did several in last few weeks. Oh not stupid labels on cpu surface too! Cost difference between cheapest one and a good one is about 3 to 5 dollars around here. This is from experience speaking. Wizard From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Aug 18 07:37:36 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990818082946.00acf100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:06 PM 8/17/99 -0700, Wayne Smith said something like: >>>> Christian Fandt 08/17 5:42 PM >>> >>Do I assume correctly you have an only copy of a very important OS tape or >>something just as critical you're unfortunately trying to repair? > >Yes. I have four original IBM 5100 data tapes (1 diagnostic and 3 BASIC >Aided Instruction) all of which have broken belts. Age has taken its toll. Oooh, ouch! Bet those tapes are hard to find (!). Definitely worth trying to fix at least the diag tape. >I do have numerous other tapes, although only a few blank IBM's. The >problem doesn't appear to affect the Scotch tapes, which is what I have most >of. Hmmm, wonder if it would be practical to take a very good condition 3M cart, dismantle it to bits and take the media from the defective IBM cart and install it into the 3M cart. Of course, the spools will be different so the media would have to be unwound from the old and wound onto the new. It would take a _long_ period of time and a whole heap o' patience to do this but it's a thought that came to mind. (I'm figuring the mechanical diffs between the two sets of small parts would not allow simply installing a 3M belt into the IBM cart.) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 18 08:04:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: S100 box (was Re: imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990817211518.0343e8d4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > Then you'd end up with the piece of crap altair supply... > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Ahem... (with regard to the last line immediately above) Get Stuffed! Thanky very much and, here's your sign! Let me introduce myself... in december of 1974 I got my copy of Popular Electronics as usual and lo and behold there was Altair. Having some expereince with 8008 prior to that and PDP-8 as well I wanted one and had saved some money. Off goes order by then airmail! Arrived 4 weeks later (told thats a record too) is 200th built Altair with a 4k memory and PIO. Built with in days and I was for many weeks maybe months the first one I know of on LI to have a machine. NOW, there is NO question the PS was crap. The first transformers (two of them for both voltages) were horribly undersized for the load, the filter caps not to mention the diodes were also pretty over loaded. By time spring came I'd finally gotten my 88ACR and another 4k of ram and watche the PS fry. The transofrmer for +-16 was too light and I found a suitable replacement. The somewhat larger +8 core was stripped and rewound to provide 7.5V and the caps were tossed for some nice 55,000mFD units. LIke I said the design was CRAP!. MITS would later that summer send a new pair of transformers that were better but still woefully undersized. The were first, not best! > If a capable group of people (please note the non-specific reference here) > were available and were such hot $#!* in 1975, why didn't they produce > something better??? They did. IMSAI was far better as was the Altair 8800B. Everyone that follow surely learned from the errors from better poser supplies to improved cooling and bus noise reduction. > Twenty-Five years after the fact it is far too easy to pronounce judgements I said that at the time and quite bluntly, however it was cheap and most of the problems could be overcome if you didn't mind applying some havey modifications. > on the past, judged against the current 'state of the art'. But was > anything learned from it? On my part yes, I'm still here. They arent. > In comparison to todays cars, the Model T was CRAP but I don't see it > constantly being held up to ridicule. It, like the Altair and many other > early developments were done with the materials and skills that were > available AT THE TIME to the PEOPLE who got off their duffs and DID IT! Actually in many ways that is not true and you know why. > And all indications are that much was learned from it, as evidenced by the > rapid followups by improved units like the IMSAI, the SOL, and even the > ALTAIR 'B' series. The Bseries was how many years later? By then everyone was eating MITS lunch. > In every revolution, someone has to be the first... and guess what? RARELY > are they the shining example of the art that it seems like some expect that > the Altair and its ilk should have been. More often, they are the > unskilled visionaries, the hacks, the garage bands, the hobbyists, or even > just someone out to make a quick buck and bail. Yep, and all of the above applies. > Maybe this is why it has been so hard to get people really interested in > the HISTORY behind computers. It has just happened all too fast, and there > has not been enough time for the whole art (science if you prefer) to gain > any respect. As a practicing engineer then and now while the idea of cheap facinated me, I was surprized that things know to the industry were not apparently know to those guys. It's why by early '78 that box was for the most part permanenty retired. It is still in my collection and while first from my engineering perspective it serves as shining example of HOW NOT TO DO IT. It stays in the collection as MY first one and how persistance allowed me to do things that were difficult then with the hardware available (to me). > Or we get the people that came from the jobs that some of up would died for > back then. Working with 'real computers', built by well trained (I like to > believe) people in 'real companies', with a 'real goal' ahead of them... > Reality check folks, that was a whole other world from the reality that > some of us grew up in! Oh, guess my resume doesn't qualify. > So, (not that anything I will ever say is likely to stop anyone) call it > what you will, but to some few of us who were still in awe of computers > back in 1975, and the Altair or some similar device was the first computer > that we could ever call our own, it was magic! It was majik. No question but as someone that was there there was more magic in our dreams. Those dreams I may add were all to often spent chasing a design of the machine error when the real desire was to crank code! Or watching our really neat VDM1 demo fry as bus nise crashed the machine. Like the Model T those of us that have driven one, worked on the engine understand why it deserves to be preserved, driven and documented as it it's effect on the world. It does not negate that it's a crude machine. The later will never change but history knows that too. It's partly the reason for the AAA and a lot of other inovations! With that in mind the computer equivelent of AAA was the Homebrew Computer Club, LICA, BCC and so on. They were there to help those that couldn't cope with the design errors, limitations or outright shoddy design on their way to accomplishing a dream which wa often very different from coping with a machine that didn't work as could be expected. Not a rant, just a loud, wake up! The good old days were more than simple. VCF is dedicated to showing the full story, all of it including the dirty sides like the World Power SCAM. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 08:42:47 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 Message-ID: <19990818134247.12424.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> I have been over the numerous PDF files on the Teac web site. The *-101 drive is not listed. It has a row of jumpers near the power connector with some recognizable names (D0, D1, FG, H-HI...) and at least one with a mysterous name (OP). The problem that I am having is that I have this flat-panel PC with an external DB-25 for an external floppy. I have traced out individual pins from an internal 34-pin header to the DB-25, but have come up with several that don't connect... 34-pin: 2, 4, 6, 12, 16 AFAIK, pin 16 on a standard floppy is the MOTOR ON signal. The behavior is this: the drive seeks on boot, the disk auto-rotates on insertion and when it gets to the part of the initialization where the floppy is read, the LED lights up, the heads twitch, but the disk does not rotate. On 5.25" drives (i.e., FD-55GFR and pals), there are straps to control when to light the LED and when to fire up the motor. I cannot figure out if there is a way to tell this floppy to spin based on other signals than MOTOR ON. There are several "S*" jumper pads on the drive PCB. I did have to change one jumper before using this drive in a standard enclosure (it came from a four-disk floppy duplicator) in order to select it. It works find in a PeeCee now. I'd love to know what the half-a-dozen pads are for. Caveat: I don't mind swapping this drive out with another one, but I only have a source of +5V, not +12V from this connector (no, the FD-235 does not use +12V for the motor). -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 18 08:58:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 In-Reply-To: <19990818134247.12424.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On 5.25" drives (i.e., FD-55GFR and pals), there are straps to control when > to light the LED and when to fire up the motor. I cannot figure out if there > is a way to tell this floppy to spin based on other signals than MOTOR ON. Do motor on ON DRIVE SELECT. I've found not less than 6 different boards in FD55GFR series, frustrating as it's a really good drive. Allison From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Aug 18 09:16:36 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop Message-ID: <01BEE962.C1AAB6D0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > >On another note: I picked up a couple of real nice "Media Cabinets" for $25 > >each. They're 7 feet tall, 18 inches deep, and 3 feet wide. They have > >lockable roll-down doors (tambour), they're made of steel, and weigh a TON! > >Great storage at a great price. > > Yep! Those are likely some examples of the early 'Wright Line' cabinets. > You can get all kinds of inside accessories for them to store just about > any kind of media or books you can imagine. > Yep... That's exactly what they are. Fortunately, they came from a clean environment and are in extremely good condition. After getting them home, I realized how useful they would be so, I'm gonna go back and see if there are any more. > Wright Line is still very much in business, and they're happy to sell > accessories. Check them on the web at www.wrightline.com. > Thanks Steve Robertson From emu at ecubics.com Wed Aug 18 09:29:15 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: More available equipment / Chicago rescue opportunity References: Message-ID: <010201bee986$0e3a3de0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Ware To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 11:04 AM Subject: More available equipment / Chicago rescue opportunity > The moving truck arrives Monday, and I still have far too much stuff. If > anyone in the Chicago area is interested, I have the following equipment > available free to a good home (of course, interesting token small trades > or cash won't be turned down...) > > DEC RL02 disk drive w/packs > DEC PDP-11/24 > Help! You don't drive with this item throu denver by any chance ? cheers, emanuel From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Aug 18 09:26:54 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop Message-ID: <01BEE964.31DFE230.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > Bigger. Quite a bit bigger. And heavier. > > Take a look at: > > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150a.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150b.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150c.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150d.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150e.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150f.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150g.jpg > http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/images/zen150h.jpg > > and see if it's the same thing. If so, it's basically a portable pc; > nothing fancy, nothing special, except its hugeness. Yep... That's it. Thanks for the pix. Steve Robertson - From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Aug 18 09:33:27 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: imsai 2?? In-Reply-To: <002d01bee8c8$d482d5c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990818093327.009da240@207.207.0.212> What's the URL? I seem to have missed it. A >Thanks to someone on the list, I saw the url for the people making a "new" >imsai. > >I couldn't help but wonder: Will the fact that you can buy a new one for >$995.00 finally curb the pricing on places like ebay for the vintage ones do >you think? > >Jay West > > > ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 18 11:39:55 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: References: <13476066641.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199908181440.QAA06949@horus.mch.sni.de> > > (Speaking of which, if you haven't heard these before, there's some > > funny as hell recordings on www.wideweb.com/phonetrips. ESPECIALLY > > the Dom Tuffy stuff and the Salute to Operators. I cut those onto a tape > > so I can go impress the others at work. Seeing as the 1971-1976, I bet > > some of the practices mentoned in those publications would work...) > Very cool! Thanks for the link. The "famous person" he refers to in the > picture is John "Cap'n Crunch" Draper. He's a real nice guy (he visited me years ago in Munich, we had a great time) - in fact, Sallam, he might be a good addition as speaker for VCF, since his records also include some historic value on the A2 and IBM PC. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 18 11:39:55 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:52 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: References: <13476073784.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199908181440.QAA06952@horus.mch.sni.de> > > [Phrack will help me rip myself off.] > > No, it'll help me figure out how to try preventing others from doing this. > That's simple. Don't enable trunk-to-trunk conferencing. Hey, features are here to be used ! Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 09:47:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: S100 box (was Re: imsai 2) Message-ID: <001b01bee988$9d2abb40$0400c0a8@winbook> The thing to remember about the "good old days" of early microcomputers, etc, is that most of the work was done by people who had the courage to do it in spite of their complete lack of educational credentials and the accompanying conventional prejudice. But for these courageous folks, nothing might have been done for another decade, as the trend at the time was to BE CONSERVATIVE. These bold newcomers were opportunists, building S-100 because they got a good deal on 100-pin edge connectors, for example, not because it was necessarily the best choice from a technical standpoint. That's what brought these machines to within the reach of the hobbyist/experimentor who reinvented electronics engineering of the time. The fact that the power supplies were "crap" was because they were built with stuff the vendors believed, but only barely, would "work" though it was bought primarily because it was "affordable." "Work" was loosely defined, and what was an inconvenience to the folks who bought the first Altair boxes was a costly lesson to the folks who designed the things in an essential vacuum. Most of the guys I knew back then to be doing the design came from Math, the Sciences, even Industrial Arts backgrounds, and they were working from a perception of need, not from, with their own funds or funds begged or borrowed from people who knew no more than they about what might happen. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 7:02 AM Subject: Re: S100 box (was Re: imsai 2) >> Then you'd end up with the piece of crap altair supply... >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Ahem... (with regard to the last line immediately above) Get Stuffed! > >Thanky very much and, here's your sign! > >Let me introduce myself... > >in december of 1974 I got my copy of Popular Electronics as usual and lo >and behold there was Altair. Having some expereince with 8008 prior to >that and PDP-8 as well I wanted one and had saved some money. Off goes >order by then airmail! Arrived 4 weeks later (told thats a record too) >is 200th built Altair with a 4k memory and PIO. Built with in days and >I was for many weeks maybe months the first one I know of on LI to have a >machine. > >NOW, there is NO question the PS was crap. The first transformers (two of >them for both voltages) were horribly undersized for the load, the >filter caps not to mention the diodes were also pretty over loaded. By >time spring came I'd finally gotten my 88ACR and another 4k of ram and >watche the PS fry. The transofrmer for +-16 was too light and I found a >suitable replacement. The somewhat larger +8 core was stripped and >rewound to provide 7.5V and the caps were tossed for some nice 55,000mFD >units. > >LIke I said the design was CRAP!. MITS would later that summer send a new >pair of transformers that were better but still woefully undersized. > >The were first, not best! > >> If a capable group of people (please note the non-specific reference here) >> were available and were such hot $#!* in 1975, why didn't they produce >> something better??? > >They did. IMSAI was far better as was the Altair 8800B. Everyone that >follow surely learned from the errors from better poser supplies to >improved cooling and bus noise reduction. > >> Twenty-Five years after the fact it is far too easy to pronounce judgements > >I said that at the time and quite bluntly, however it was cheap and most >of the problems could be overcome if you didn't mind applying some havey >modifications. > >> on the past, judged against the current 'state of the art'. But was >> anything learned from it? > >On my part yes, I'm still here. They arent. > >> In comparison to todays cars, the Model T was CRAP but I don't see it >> constantly being held up to ridicule. It, like the Altair and many other >> early developments were done with the materials and skills that were >> available AT THE TIME to the PEOPLE who got off their duffs and DID IT! > >Actually in many ways that is not true and you know why. > >> And all indications are that much was learned from it, as evidenced by the >> rapid followups by improved units like the IMSAI, the SOL, and even the >> ALTAIR 'B' series. > >The Bseries was how many years later? By then everyone was eating MITS >lunch. > >> In every revolution, someone has to be the first... and guess what? RARELY >> are they the shining example of the art that it seems like some expect that >> the Altair and its ilk should have been. More often, they are the >> unskilled visionaries, the hacks, the garage bands, the hobbyists, or even >> just someone out to make a quick buck and bail. > >Yep, and all of the above applies. > >> Maybe this is why it has been so hard to get people really interested in >> the HISTORY behind computers. It has just happened all too fast, and there >> has not been enough time for the whole art (science if you prefer) to gain >> any respect. > >As a practicing engineer then and now while the idea of cheap facinated >me, I was surprized that things know to the industry were not apparently >know to those guys. It's why by early '78 that box was for the most part >permanenty retired. It is still in my collection and while first from my >engineering perspective it serves as shining example of HOW NOT TO DO >IT. It stays in the collection as MY first one and how persistance >allowed me to do things that were difficult then with the hardware >available (to me). > >> Or we get the people that came from the jobs that some of up would died for >> back then. Working with 'real computers', built by well trained (I like to >> believe) people in 'real companies', with a 'real goal' ahead of them... >> Reality check folks, that was a whole other world from the reality that >> some of us grew up in! > >Oh, guess my resume doesn't qualify. > >> So, (not that anything I will ever say is likely to stop anyone) call it >> what you will, but to some few of us who were still in awe of computers >> back in 1975, and the Altair or some similar device was the first computer >> that we could ever call our own, it was magic! > >It was majik. No question but as someone that was there there was more >magic in our dreams. Those dreams I may add were all to often spent >chasing a design of the machine error when the real desire was to crank >code! Or watching our really neat VDM1 demo fry as bus nise crashed the >machine. > >Like the Model T those of us that have driven one, worked on the engine >understand why it deserves to be preserved, driven and documented as it >it's effect on the world. It does not negate that it's a crude machine. >The later will never change but history knows that too. It's partly the >reason for the AAA and a lot of other inovations! > >With that in mind the computer equivelent of AAA was the Homebrew >Computer Club, LICA, BCC computer Society> and so on. They were there to help those that couldn't >cope with the design errors, limitations or outright shoddy design on >their way to accomplishing a dream which wa often very different from >coping with a machine that didn't work as could be expected. > >Not a rant, just a loud, wake up! The good old days were more than simple. >VCF is dedicated to showing the full story, all of it including the dirty >sides like the World Power SCAM. > >Allison > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Aug 18 10:05:38 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Lear-Siegler ADM3A with Retrographics (Tek emulator) plus spare parts] (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded from the 'net. Replies to original poster please. This is very cool... If I was closer, I'd grab it! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:38:25 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec Subject: Lear-Siegler ADM3A with Retrographics (Tek emulator) plus spare parts I have an original relic of the computing of the late 70's and early 80's here: it's an ADM3A (the ASCII terminal that looks like a Volkswagen Beetle) that has had a Retrographics board dropped into it so that it can emulate Tektronix graphics. (I've never used that functionality, but I can provide you with the notes that were given to me on how to make it work.) It's in the light blue/dark blue two-tone that LS liked to make these in...it's almost indestructable...and it's relatively heavy. I also have a box of spare parts which includes 1 or 2 extra ADM3A boards (gotta love all that TTL logic!) plus whatever else I gutted from the extra ADM3A's that were sitting around. It also works: I used it to boot a Sparcstation last week. Make me an offer (and please be sure that it's enough to cover shipping costs, or you can pick it up near Philadelphia or Baltimore) and the entire pile o'stuff can lend an authentic air to your retro-computing environment. My email address is below. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Aug 18 11:14:54 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: S100 box (was Re: imsai 2) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990817211518.0343e8d4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990818120718.00ad87d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:04 AM 8/18/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com said something like: >> Then you'd end up with the piece of crap altair supply... >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Ahem... (with regard to the last line immediately above) Get Stuffed! > >Thanky very much and, here's your sign! > >Let me introduce myself... > >in december of 1974 I got my copy of Popular Electronics as usual and lo >and behold there was Altair. Having some expereince with 8008 prior to -- snip -- > >Not a rant, just a loud, wake up! The good old days were more than simple. >VCF is dedicated to showing the full story, all of it including the dirty >sides like the World Power SCAM. > >Allison Very well said Allison! I got my own engineering dander up at this but you stated our position better than I would have. Additionally, back in '74 I was still a student and trying to work full time to keep up with the bills. The Altair/MITS machines were a real dream for me. I still have all those R-E and Popular Electronics mags. I never got a real computer until my H8 back in '81 and went into debt for the system. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mranalog at home.com Wed Aug 18 11:27:07 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <37BADEDB.538D947@home.com> Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:37:55 Bill Sudbrink said: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html > >Fortunately, the article does not use that horrid phrase: > >"Software Program" > >AAARRRGGG!!! > >Why don't we get in the automobile car and drive ride to the >financial institution bank. There we can get some cash currency Bill, would you not call this an example of a hardware program? http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/analogs2.jpg I would not feel comfortable saying that this computer is running software. In fact it's wired to calculate and graphically display the trajectory of a ball after it's dropped from a certain height, and bounces on the ground. In practice, the program had a bug in it or a computing element was not functioning right, because when the program ran it would crash just after the first bounce. Probably had to do with the acceleration or velocity changing to the negative direction. If the function of something can be changed, whether the change is in the sequence of bits recorded on a diskette, or the pivot point in a set of linkages, I would say that you are changing the programming of that machine. But that's just my perspective and opinion. Regards, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 11:38:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990818093327.009da240@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > What's the URL? I seem to have missed it. www.imsai.net Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 11:41:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: <199908181440.QAA06949@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > Very cool! Thanks for the link. The "famous person" he refers to in the > > picture is John "Cap'n Crunch" Draper. > > He's a real nice guy (he visited me years ago in Munich, > we had a great time) - in fact, Sallam, he might be a > good addition as speaker for VCF, since his records > also include some historic value on the A2 and IBM PC. Eh. I just had a discussion on this with someone who just met him in Georgia. I would have Draper speak but only after having thought about it for a while. I think he's much over-rated. I also met him in person several years ago and was less than impressed, especially when he wouldn't stop calling me asking me to come over to his place and "share a massage" with him. Freaky. BTW, I have the manual for Easy Writer, but am missing the disk. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 11:41:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: <199908181440.QAA06952@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > [Phrack will help me rip myself off.] > > > No, it'll help me figure out how to try preventing others from doing this. > > That's simple. Don't enable trunk-to-trunk conferencing. > > Hey, features are here to be used ! And abused! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Aug 18 07:37:56 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Spotted at the thrift shop Message-ID: <199908181643.MAA27264@smtp.interlog.com> On 17 Aug 99 at 10:01, Steve Robertson wrote: > Saw this at the local thrift and was wondering if it is worth grabbing. > > It's a ZENITH Luggable computer. Looks kinda like a COMPAQ suitcase > computer. Although it could be a tad smaller. The unsual thing about it is > that the drives (5-1/4 and HD) are hidden in the top of the case. There is > a release mechanism that allows them to pop-up for access. > > It's priced at $30 but, I could probably get it for about $20. Is it worth > collecting? > I have one in my collection, but with 2 fds no HD. Cool design. Mine's a ZFA-161. It's a Dos machine with a monitor program in ROM ,but a CP/M card was available. It has a passive backplane and one of the most uncluttered interiors I've seen. If it has an HD I'd go for it, Hell, I'd give you $20 just for the HD and controller. ciao larry PS Just had a look a Uncle Rogers images. Apparently the model 150 was also luggable. If you can really say the first Compaqs or Kaypros were "luggable" with a sraight face. lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 18 13:49:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: At least SOMETHING went right today... New toy. In-Reply-To: References: <199908181440.QAA06949@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908181650.SAA12084@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > Very cool! Thanks for the link. The "famous person" he refers to in the > > > picture is John "Cap'n Crunch" Draper. > > He's a real nice guy (he visited me years ago in Munich, > > we had a great time) - in fact, Sallam, he might be a > > good addition as speaker for VCF, since his records > > also include some historic value on the A2 and IBM PC. > Eh. I just had a discussion on this with someone who just met him in > Georgia. I would have Draper speak but only after having thought about it > for a while. I think he's much over-rated. Shure, but after all, most of the 'historic' guys are. > I also met him in person several years ago and was less than impressed, > especially when he wouldn't stop calling me asking me to come over to his > place and "share a massage" with him. Freaky. :)) Jep, he has some kind of unique personality.. > BTW, I have the manual for Easy Writer, but am missing the disk. Well, I never had a 'regular' version :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From bill at chipware.com Wed Aug 18 12:21:47 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <37BADEDB.538D947@home.com> Message-ID: <000a01bee99e$26bd7e50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Bill, would you not call this an example of a hardware program? "Software" implies "program". "Software" by itself is sufficient. "Computer program" to differentiate from say "television program" I can accept because "program" by itself is ambiguous. I can accept "hardware program" as well, although I would say "programmed in hardware". If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have to kill you ;-) From transit at primenet.com Wed Aug 18 12:26:04 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <000a01bee99e$26bd7e50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > to kill you ;-) Firmware? From bill at chipware.com Wed Aug 18 12:41:13 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01bee9a0$dd542130$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > > to kill you ;-) > > Firmware? Yes. That is the _CORRECT_ term. Software is not firmware. My basic (no pun intended) objection in this discussion is that these are well defined engineering terms which are being corrupted by common ignorant use. From donm at cts.com Wed Aug 18 12:53:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <9908180103.ZM7000@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 17, 15:04, Don Maslin wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > Yes, it's a nice place. I live in York, about 25 miles away -- and Taylors > have a branch here too. They also own Betty's, which is a famous cafe. > Actually, Taylor's are better know here for coffee than tea... > > If you're ever in that part of the world again, drop me line and say hello. Count on it. - don From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 13:33:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: PL/I Message-ID: IBM still offers PL/I programming tools: http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=1825319&cgmenbr=1&cntry=840&lang=en_US Just thought it was interesting. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Wed Aug 18 13:36:10 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <000a01bee99e$26bd7e50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from Bill Sudbrink at "Aug 18, 99 01:21:47 pm" Message-ID: <199908181836.OAA28411@hiway1.exit109.com> > > Bill, would you not call this an example of a hardware program? > > "Software" implies "program". "Software" by itself is sufficient. > "Computer program" to differentiate from say "television program" > I can accept because "program" by itself is ambiguous. I can accept > "hardware program" as well, although I would say "programmed in hardware". > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > to kill you ;-) I'm not sure you can really say that "computer program" is any less ambiguous than "television program", at least when taken with no context. For example, Bill asks his friend, "Have you seen the new computer program?" Is he referring to: a. Front Page 2000 (a software application) b. "The Computer Chronicles" (a television program about computers) c. A new political initiative aimed at puttimg more computers in schools. Gotta love English... <<>> From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 13:56:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)) Message-ID: <000c01bee9ab$6128dd20$0400c0a8@winbook> Just to add grist for the mill, I'd point out that people now are, perhaps erroneously, calling recorded program material for your stereo and your TV 'software' as well. Now, I would call a CD or a CDROM firmware, since you can't really change it, but who's splitting hairs . . . Years ago, people predicted that it would become increasingly difficult to distinguish hardware from software, though I doubt that. After all, if you can see it or touch it, it's hardware, right? Now we have software for building hardware. Not just the HDL's of various sorts, but one can actually realize a series of 'C' statements via VHDL or Verilog, among others, I'm sure, in a hardware (?) implementation. If we call the content of ROM and PROM devices firmware, it's reasonable to call the content of PAL and CPLD devices firmware as well, isn't it? What about the content of those volatile FPGA devices? They're not like PROMs, in that they forget what they learned last time power was on. They can be changed pretty readily. Some are even capable of running (yecchh!) self-modifying code internally. What do we call all this "stuff" now? Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >> > Bill, would you not call this an example of a hardware program? >> >> "Software" implies "program". "Software" by itself is sufficient. >> "Computer program" to differentiate from say "television program" >> I can accept because "program" by itself is ambiguous. I can accept >> "hardware program" as well, although I would say "programmed in hardware". >> If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> to kill you ;-) > >I'm not sure you can really say that "computer program" is any less >ambiguous than "television program", at least when taken with no >context. > >For example, Bill asks his friend, "Have you seen the new computer program?" > >Is he referring to: > > a. Front Page 2000 (a software application) > b. "The Computer Chronicles" (a television program about > computers) > c. A new political initiative aimed at puttimg more computers > in schools. > >Gotta love English... > ><<>> From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 13:57:47 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <000b01bee9a0$dd542130$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: > > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > > > to kill you ;-) > > Firmware? > Yes. That is the _CORRECT_ term. Software is not firmware. My > basic (no pun intended) objection in this discussion is that these > are well defined engineering terms which are being corrupted by > common ignorant use. Would you use "Firmware" to describe the plug boards of the old EAM, where they were programmed by wiring? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From elvey at hal.com Wed Aug 18 14:17:15 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908181917.MAA29853@civic.hal.com> "Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > > to kill you ;-) > > Firmware? > > Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is plugged in. Dwight From bill at chipware.com Wed Aug 18 14:23:45 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)) In-Reply-To: <000c01bee9ab$6128dd20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000e01bee9af$304995b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Just to add grist for the mill, I'd point out that people now are, perhaps > erroneously, calling recorded program material for your stereo and your TV > 'software' as well. Now, I would call a CD or a CDROM firmware, since you > can't really change it, but who's splitting hairs . . . Ah, the question of when is software software. If you want to get really precise, I would argue that it is "stored data" when it is on the CDROM. It does not become software until it is relocated and available for execution in the processors address space. If you can step a program counter (or instruction pointer or whatever you call it on a particular architecture) across it, then it is either software or firmware. Otherwise: If it is on paper, it is a "listing". If it is on paper tape, it is a "dump". Etc. Of course, this opens up the question of just what are interpreted language and p-code programs? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 18 14:54:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)) In-Reply-To: <000e01bee9af$304995b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: In the context of time place and speakers... First police officer: Joe Second officer: frank bystander: Scene: front of building Joe: Frank did you see her hardware? Frank: Holy cow, you don't seen them like that anymore! bystander: I have a IMSAI like that too. Frank: frisk him for hardware. Joe: no weapons. What is hardware at the scene? Context is every thing! Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Aug 18 15:08:08 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Aug 18, 1999 03:54:29 PM Message-ID: <199908182008.OAA25192@calico.litterbox.com> > In the context of time place and speakers... > > First police officer: Joe > Second officer: frank > bystander: > > Scene: front of building > > Joe: Frank did you see her hardware? > Frank: Holy cow, you don't seen them like that anymore! > bystander: I have a IMSAI like that too. > Frank: frisk him for hardware. > Joe: no weapons. > > What is hardware at the scene? Context is every thing! > > Allison Obviously all three of them are geeks, and the person being frisked is a hacker. :) I'm suddenly reminded of a line from Short Circuit where #5 is watching Allie Sheedy take a bath. "Niiice software!" -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From wsmith at gj.com Wed Aug 18 15:33:21 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair Message-ID: >>> Christian Fandt 08/18 5:37 AM >>> >>Yes. I have four original IBM 5100 data tapes (1 diagnostic and 3 BASIC >>Aided Instruction) all of which have broken belts. Age has taken its toll. >Oooh, ouch! Bet those tapes are hard to find (!). Definitely worth trying >to fix at least the diag tape. I have an extra diag. tape, but I haven't run it in a while. The first thing I'll do is copy it. >Hmmm, wonder if it would be practical to take a very good condition 3M >cart, dismantle it to bits and take the media from the defective IBM cart >and install it into the 3M cart. Of course, the spools will be different so >the media would have to be unwound from the old and wound onto the new. It >would take a _long_ period of time and a whole heap o' patience to do this >but it's a thought that came to mind. (I'm figuring the mechanical diffs >between the two sets of small parts would not allow simply installing a 3M >belt into the IBM cart.) I think I'd have to take the belt off to do this in any case, so it probably makes more sense just to replace the belt. Thanks, Wayne. ! ! ! From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Aug 18 15:48:45 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: HP1000 ????? Message-ID: <002d01bee9bb$106a2320$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> A few weeks back someone on the list posted that they knew where some equipment was that was scheduled to be pitched. In addition to other gear, one of the items was an HP1000 system. I had expressed interest in the system, but have not heard anything for a while; I also can't find the email address of who it was. If you're on the list, please email me privately to discuss. Regards! Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 12:40:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990817182239.269f0662@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Aug 17, 99 06:22:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1147 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/6a13cbf1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 12:43:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990817232129.23472b08@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Aug 17, 99 11:21:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/ba294d33/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 12:46:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990817212549.00abdeb0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 17, 99 09:34:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/bcc60a4d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 12:53:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908180201.AA01052@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 17, 99 10:01:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/9d759c78/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 12:57:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: from "Wayne Smith" at Aug 17, 99 07:06:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/582f5362/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 13:02:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908180215.TAA26697@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Aug 17, 99 07:15:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 957 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/ba978328/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 13:05:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <001601bee924$f966a220$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 17, 99 08:54:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 571 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/94a3de05/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 13:17:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 17, 99 11:25:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1148 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/fb6aa84a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 13:20:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <006901bee935$a6216ee0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 17, 99 10:53:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 600 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/ed1922a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 13:23:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990818082946.00acf100@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 18, 99 08:37:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 586 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/7f172c19/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 13:30:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 In-Reply-To: <19990818134247.12424.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 18, 99 06:42:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1406 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/a88db76a/attachment.ksh From wsmith at gj.com Wed Aug 18 16:02:53 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project Redux Message-ID: My serial number project is going slowly. I only received two responses (thanks, Charlie and Joe) and so my sample set has a woeful three date points:13352 (Charlie's), 13513 (mine, sold 1/77) and 14213 (Joe's, sold 9/77). Perhaps a rate of about 1000 units per year in 1977, but too little info to tell. If this rate is correct, I would suspect the the numbering began around 12000 or so. C'mon everybody, have a look at the back of your 5100 (the number is engraved into the back of the case, usually preceeded by a "10-") and keep those numbers coming. Thanks. From wsmith at gj.com Wed Aug 18 16:11:17 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: DC300 Tape Repair Message-ID: >>> Tony Duell 08/18 10:57 AM >>> >> Yes. I have four original IBM 5100 data tapes (1 diagnostic and 3 BASIC >> Aided Instruction) all of which have broken belts. Age has taken its >> toll. I do have numerous other tapes, although only a few blank IBM's. >> The problem doesn't appear to affect the Scotch tapes, which is what I >> have most of. >In my (limited) experience you can't interchange parts (belts, idlers, >etc) between different makes of cartridge. So I guess you're going to >have to take some of the good IBM ones apart to repair the defective ones. >You could try using parts of the 3M tapes, but I doubt if they will work. The winding pattern is the same, but the belts are a different color. On the IBMs they are an off-white. On the Scotch they are brown. I also have several 3Ms where they are closer to black. With so many broken IBM belts I am reluctant to swap out what are likely to ultimately be more broken belts. ! ! ! From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 17 10:00:37 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908170737.AAA18519@saul4.u.washington.edu> References: <199908170342.XAA09945@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 16, 99 11:42:52 pm Message-ID: >Now if I only knew how to make masala chai like they make at Indian >restaurants... I have a recipe somewhere, I've seen it done, but I've never Quick Chai (in most of the world chai just means tea) Put a spoonfull of pumpkin pie spice mix in a pot of water and simmer 10 minutes or more. Strain and make tea with most any decent black tea. Add milk and sugar to taste. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 15:56:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <000b01bee9a0$dd542130$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Aug 18, 99 01:41:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990818/18c8c367/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Aug 18 16:06:32 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: OT whats a Alpha 2100 server A500MP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I cannot believe this lucky dog friend of mine. Last month he buys a Compaq 1265 at auction cheap with a cracked display, and compaq replaces it under warranty free. This week I tell him to check out a auction I went to where a big bidder defaulted, and comes back with this "still under hardware support" Alpha 2100 server model A500MP, and the price was too good to even discuss. Now we want to play with it though, and neither of us has a clue where to start. (hint it won't be the $200/hr Compaq software support line) The only thing that came with it is a DAT drive (worth more I bet than he paid for the whole thing). On the back it has a couple PS/2 mouse/keyboard type connectors, a serial port, and I think it has a ethernet card. Software on it might be OSF1. HELP. It is too heavy for "us" to move out of his SUV, so we plan to back it up in my driveway and run an extension cord to it and whatever else we need to for "testing". Just finding out what is inside would be real nice. Thanks. From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 18 17:07:58 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project Redux References: Message-ID: <37BB2EBE.E697CD24@rain.org> Wayne Smith wrote: > > My serial number project is going slowly. I only received two responses (thanks, Charlie and Joe) and so my sample set has a woeful three date points:13352 (Charlie's), 13513 (mine, sold 1/77) and 14213 (Joe's, sold 9/77). Perhaps a rate of about 1000 units per year in 1977, but too little info to tell. If this rate is correct, I would suspect the the numbering began around 12000 or so. Mine is a Basic machine and has serial number 15041. The serial number was on a tag located on the bottom of the machine, and I didn't see any dates. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 18 17:52:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <199908182252.SAA12320@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 18, 99 06:52:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1650 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/ffcf009b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 18:13:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908182252.SAA12418@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 18, 99 06:52:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/ac8cbff7/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 18 18:24:13 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <990818192413.20200660@trailing-edge.com> >Actually My comments were narrowly aimed. the IMSAI was a far better >example of S100 and worth copying. Only ONE change I'd do... NO MAINS >POWER ON THE FP! Back when I'd seen one altair and a IMSAI fried by >someone comming in contact with that. It had no business there. You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, ever learn! I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a screwdriver ended up in the wall.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Aug 18 18:28:05 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: More on that PBX... Message-ID: <13476555085.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Okay, I got the thing up to a lighted room, cleaned it up, and I'm going about checking it over. So far, I've determined the following: The computer itself is a 16-bit discrete-logic machine, with scattered ICs. It spans about 7 or 8 boards for the CPU itself, and about 16 or 17 for 64K or so of RAM. Dunno what it runs, as I can't power it on yet, but it boots from a magnetic tape cartridge. (I think it's a QIC-02 cartirige, aren't those the ones about 1/2" thick, 5-6" wide, and about 3" long?) Anyway, I haven't found a TTY connection yet, but I did find a Bell answer-only modem inside the rack (In fact, it had broken free of it's mounting and was bouncing around inside the rack) so it does have one somewhere. The main problem at the moment is the AC input box appears to be dead. No output when power is applied. I'm getting a second person to watch me open it tonight, that way if I do something stupid and nail myself, there's a second person to run for help. Replacing the AC box with a power strip won't help either, it appears to generate all the miscellaneous AC voltages required. If I get ambitious, I may be able to replace it, but I don't wanna unless I have to. More as I find it out... ------- From fpp at concentric.net Wed Aug 18 18:52:13 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: First Laptop Message-ID: <001301bee9d4$b31096e0$bcfaadce@paul> Ok, heard back from my friend Bob the Epson man. he says"Epson never said that they made the first laptop computer. Epson said they made the first NOTEBOOK computer. This may seem to be a Marketing word game, but I feel that given that the computer was the first portable computer about the size of a notebook, their statement is true and is one of the few things they told us that was true. " From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Aug 18 18:50:06 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: OT whats a Alpha 2100 server A500MP? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Aug 18, 1999 1: 6:32 pm" Message-ID: <199908182350.TAA07938@pechter.dyndns.org> > I cannot believe this lucky dog friend of mine. Last month he buys a Compaq > 1265 at auction cheap with a cracked display, and compaq replaces it under > warranty free. This week I tell him to check out a auction I went to where > a big bidder defaulted, and comes back with this "still under hardware > support" Alpha 2100 server model A500MP, and the price was too good to even > discuss. > > Now we want to play with it though, and neither of us has a clue where to > start. (hint it won't be the $200/hr Compaq software support line) The only > thing that came with it is a DAT drive (worth more I bet than he paid for > the whole thing). On the back it has a couple PS/2 mouse/keyboard type > connectors, a serial port, and I think it has a ethernet card. Software on > it might be OSF1. > > HELP. It is too heavy for "us" to move out of his SUV, so we plan to back > it up in my driveway and run an extension cord to it and whatever else we > need to for "testing". Just finding out what is inside would be real nice. > Thanks. > > > if it runs OPEN/VMS take a look at http://www.montagar.com for the DECUS non-commercial hobby VAX/VMS deal. OSF/1 (later known as DIGITAL Unix and now TRU-64 Unix) is pretty good. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 18 18:54:36 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:53 2005 Subject: Probably not classic but ... Message-ID: <4.1.19990818165213.00cbc740@mcmanis.com> I just picked up two DecSystem 5500's (and about 500 TK70 tapes :-) in BA213 cabinets. I _thought_ they were Vax 3500s but no, they have KN220 CPUs. Apparently Ultrix is loaded on them (haven't powered them up yet). So what are they? (SPIM machines? (aka PMAX'es)) They have had some parts "borrowed" but between the two of them I think I've got one complete system. --Chuck From wsmith at gj.com Wed Aug 18 18:57:28 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: First Laptop Message-ID: >>> "Paul Passmore" 08/18 4:52 PM >>> >Ok, heard back from my friend Bob the Epson man. he says"Epson never said >that they made the first laptop computer. Epson said they made the first >NOTEBOOK computer. This may seem to be a Marketing word game, but I feel >that given that the computer was the first >portable computer about the size of a notebook, their statement is true and >is one of the few things they told us that was true. " Must be true because you can easily fit, for example, an HP-85 in your lap (although it's a bit hard to see the screen). From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 19:09:01 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Probably not classic but ... References: <4.1.19990818165213.00cbc740@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <9908182010043H.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >I just picked up two DecSystem 5500's (and about 500 TK70 tapes :-) in >BA213 cabinets. I _thought_ they were Vax 3500s but no, they have KN220 >CPUs. Apparently Ultrix is loaded on them (haven't powered them up yet). > >So what are they? (SPIM machines? (aka PMAX'es)) They have had some parts >"borrowed" but between the two of them I think I've got one complete system. Ahh! Basically Qbus PMAX boxes. Neat machines. There's been talk about sharing some Qbus stuff between NetBSD/vax and NetBSD/pmax for that machine. Interesting design! -Dave McGuire From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 18 19:27:27 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: id this board? M3118-YA Message-ID: <4.1.19990818172624.00a5f5a0@mcmanis.com> The PMAX system has a board in it called a M3118-YA with two centronics like (but smaller) connectors. Anyone know what it is? --Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Aug 18 19:47:23 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My serial number project is going slowly. I only received two responses > (thanks, Charlie and Joe) and so my sample set has a woeful three date > points:13352 (Charlie's), 13513 (mine, sold 1/77) and 14213 (Joe's, sold > 9/77). #12206. I win. You will have to wait for the 5103s number. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 18 19:49:11 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Cache of SEQUENT tapes found Message-ID: <19990818.194912.206.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I found the following DC-600's at a local junk dealer: DYNIX SVAE 3.1.0 Balance DYNIX Maint. Delta 3.0.19/3.14 DYNIX Encryption 3.1.0 Balance DYNIX OS Delta 3.0.14 to 3.1.10 DYNIX BASE OS 3.1.0 If these are of possible value to anyone, please respond via private E-Mail. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 19:51:51 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: id this board? M3118-YA References: <4.1.19990818172624.00a5f5a0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <9908182054373L.29487@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >The PMAX system has a board in it called a M3118-YA with two centronics >like (but smaller) connectors. Anyone know what it is? 16-line async...don't know the option name offhand... -Dave McGuire From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 18 20:14:00 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:04:49 -0400 (EDT) . Message-ID: In message , Max Eskin writes: >On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, LordTyran wrote: >>On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>> So . . . Linux will use the parallel port to turn on the coffee maker, but >>> who'll fetch, measure, mix, and grind the beans? When does it clean out th >e >>> coffee pot and put the old coffee in the house-plants? What about the >>> filter? Hmmmm? >>That's what the robotic arm on the second parallel port is for! > >Has anyone here seen Brazil? It's an excellent black comedy by Terry >Gilliam. Anyway, near the beginning, there is shown an automated routine >helping the main character get up. A TV pops out of the wall, a ball falls >and plugs the bathtub while the taps turn on, two pieces of bread pop out >of a toaster, and the coffee machine pours coffee on them. You have to see >it.... > >As pertaining to classic computers, the movie also has a brilliant parody >of computers. They look like very old-fashioned teletypes with a bare (the >entire CRT and circuitry is open to view) screen about 4" diagonal >enlarged by a huge flat magnifying glass. Again, you have to see it... And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you UNIX. They seem to take great pride in naming systems with names that make marketing cringe. The predecessor to Brazil was Plan 9 after the infamous sci-fi movie Plan 9 From Outer Space. Brian L. Stuart From elvey at hal.com Wed Aug 18 20:13:46 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <990818192413.20200660@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199908190113.SAA29969@civic.hal.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Actually My comments were narrowly aimed. the IMSAI was a far better > >example of S100 and worth copying. Only ONE change I'd do... NO MAINS > >POWER ON THE FP! Back when I'd seen one altair and a IMSAI fried by > >someone comming in contact with that. It had no business there. > > You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in > them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, > ever learn! > > I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a screwdriver > ended up in the wall.) Hi I have no problem with it being on the front panel. Why does anyone have trouble with that but not with the hot fuse on the mother board. I have been bitten by the fuse several times ( slow learner ) but not once by the front panel. By todays safety standards, the IMSAI is a failure but for its time, it was well designed. The only objection I have to the switch on the front is that it is too close to other switches that might accidentally be selected. Even there, one could still do damage to running code by hitting some other wrong switch. I rewired mine from the under sized switch someone place on the back of my machine to the original switch on front. It works just fine. Dwight From a2k at one.net Wed Aug 18 20:23:00 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Has anyone here seen Brazil? It's an excellent black comedy by Terry > Gilliam. Anyway, near the beginning, there is shown an automated routine > helping the main character get up. A TV pops out of the wall, a ball falls > and plugs the bathtub while the taps turn on, two pieces of bread pop out > of a toaster, and the coffee machine pours coffee on them. You have to see > it.... > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) Sounds like Wallace and Grommit ;) Kevin From a2k at one.net Wed Aug 18 20:28:05 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <006901bee935$a6216ee0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not > >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so > >for a typical 200W PSU. If you're lucky. I just bought (and returned) a POS PC with a 75 watt (rated) PSU. No joke. I like to put a nice, 300W PSU in all the computers that I build beacuse they're really not the much more expensive... and a lot cheaper than replacing a lot of hard drives.. Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 20:48:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <001801bee9e5$1333d860$0400c0a8@winbook> You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you reprogram them in situ. How does that effect your definitions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >"Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: >> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> > to kill you ;-) >> >> Firmware? >> >> > >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >plugged in. >Dwight > From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 18:54:35 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908182252.SAA12418@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990818185435.1d2f15ae@earthlink.net> At 06:52 PM 8/18/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >As someone that has wound audio and power transformers from scratch it's >a pretty trivial task and can be very useful. Used to be a time the >ARRL (USA) Handbook for Radio Amateurs had all the tables. Though given >a random core it's pretty easy work all the numbers out after finding out >if it's big enough. > >Allison Yes. Good numbers to start with for power transformers are (US measurements, I am sure there are equivalent ones in use elsewhere): 6 turns/volt/square inch of core. Wattage = 32*(square inch of core)^2 For AWG 23 wire, 1 Amp and area changes by 2x for every 3 gauge numbers. Winding space is easy to figure out with standard "EI" laminations. Of course small transformers such as in some wall warts would be a pain! -Dave From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Aug 18 20:56:07 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: HP2100 core memory problems Message-ID: <001701bee9e6$01e3aa80$0101a8c0@jay> Well, once again I come to the well for knowledge.....:) Seeking advice from those up on core memory I'm kinda lost on checking out the memory in my HP 2100. I have two 2100's, each with four 8K boards or 32k per machine. I had lots of parity errors so I lined up all eight 8K boards on the bench and reconfigured the memory controller for 8K total rather than 32K (test one board at a time). I put in one of the boards and ran a small memory test (not a diag tape, but a core memory test from the CE guide via the front panel).The core test has three "controlling" locations, one location for the first address to test, one for the last address, and then how many cycles per memory location. A cycle is defined as writing all zeros, read, and compare - then writing all ones, read, and compare all on a single location. Here's the symptoms. The full test of 8K takes about 2 hours (with a cycle of 3). On different boards it gets to different locations before the parity error halt. So far mostly at the middle or end, I don't recall it ever parity halting towards the beginning. I'll get a parity error halt on say location 012336 for example. I then manually go to the failing location and try storing different values in the location and reading them back out (all via the front panel). Most of the time this gives a parity error like you would expect. But - many times it doesn't. Then just for kicks I restart the diagnostic a few locations lower (like 012320 in this example) than the failing location. It fails right away usually (like location 012322), quite a few cells before the location which originally failed. This causes me great confusion, because it's actually now failing on addresses which previously tested OK just a few minutes ago on the previous test pass. Every 8K board I have exhibits this problem, but all at different locations. Supposedly both machines worked fine before they were put in storage 20 years ago, so these weren't picked up out of a junk heap or anything. Cosmetically they're beautiful inside and out. I've also tried switching the XY driver boards, the memory controller, etc. etc. but I can't seem to get anything stable enough to start intelligently swapping parts when every combination is bad. In case it matters, each 8K board is 17 bits per word (1 parity plus 16 data bits). Also, it isn't a complete failure - I've keyed in many other programs from the front panel and read in paper tapes (a suite of I/O tests and such) that all run fine so I know the system is somewhat coherent. I've checked the power supply for the memory cage and it's supposed to be 20 volts - my VOM came up with 20.48 ISTR, which is probably close enough I would think. Can anyone suggest a course of action or possible culprits in this situation? I suspect I can't see the forest for the trees anymore :) Thanks! Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 18 21:03:32 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <19990818.210333.234.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:48:53 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" writes: >You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and >you >reprogram them in situ. > >How does that effect your definitions? Stupidware, n: Data entities that can be deleted by software, which, when so deleted require de-soldering of one or more parts in order for them to be restored. <'Modern PeeCee's are generally now equipped with *stupidware*, as a cost saving measure.'> Slushware, n: The silly practice of de-compressing firmware, and placing it in RAM, usually in a very vulnerable area of the address space. <"When changed the address of the BIOS on my SCSI card, the the boot message said that I had 'corrupt *slushware*'.> > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Dwight Elvey >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:16 PM >Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, >Borland, etc) > > >>"Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: >>> >>> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would >have >>> > to kill you ;-) >>> >>> Firmware? >>> >>> >> >>Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >>plugged in. >>Dwight >> > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 21:24:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <004201bee9ea$06b1fea0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've had plenty of PSU's fail, but the price is not as good an indicator of the probability as you might believe. I've got two machines of about the same age and content, yet one has had three PSU's over the 10 years it's been in use, while the other has the one it had when I got it. I realize that's unusual, but it can happen. The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 > >In the UK, a decent (==ball bearings. Papst, Etri, somebody like that) >fan is under \pounds 20.00 in 1-off. PC PSUs are a little more, so it is >often worth replacing the fan. > >> in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not > >Yes, but that's a PSU with a cheap fan that will fail in a few months. >When it does, doesn't it make sense to buy a better fan and replace just >the fan (which will then last many years) than put in another PSU that will >fail in another couple of months? > >-tony > From danburrows at mindspring.com Wed Aug 18 21:08:09 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: id this board? M3118-YA Message-ID: <000c01bee9ea$54090950$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> CXA16 16 line Mux Dan -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:34 PM Subject: id this board? M3118-YA The PMAX system has a board in it called a M3118-YA with two centronics like (but smaller) connectors. Anyone know what it is? --Chuck From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Aug 18 21:29:35 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive! Message-ID: <13476588127.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Well, the power problem was easy to fix. Inside the PBX, someone had disconnected one of the live AC leads froms the screw terminal, and wrapped the end in electrical tape. Once I figured out where it went (Which was easy, it was the only unscrewed screw...) and applied power, it did all sorts of fun stuff. First, the console gets VERY confused when the things boots, and for about 30 seconds or so, the alarm goes off, all (or most of) the lights come on, and all of the various tones (intercept, dial, busy, etc.) sound at once. The tones themselved sound the same as the tones on the public network today. I was hoping for something interesting... Also, I found out the PASS and FAIL lights on the test panel are burned out. I'll have to replace them. The next thing to do is to connect some stations to it and see what happens. I think I have the proper wiring for this... Also, does anyone have the pinout of a trunk connector? You see, all we have at the destination of the PBX (Which is where I work) is Centrex service, and it sucks because we can't do PBX type stuff like music on hold, or transfer calls around, or pick up on any line from any phone... Right now when the phone rings or we have to pick up on certain phones (Cause not all of them have 4 lines, and of those that do, not all of them work.) and it's a general mess. So, what's going to be connected to this (if possible) is just 5 straight phone lines, and we'll have the Centrex service cancelled. (That way we don't have to dial 2 9s for an outside line.) SO far, from the console, I can snag a loop, and get an internal dial tone. If I dial 9 (It is touch-tone), I can get an outside line, but there's nothing on it so it's just silent. Also, I need to clean out the console buttons, right now you have to mash pretty hard to make a button go. Other than hat, I haven't been able to test much. There's no fans, and no loud noises, it just kinda sits and hums. OH, and I did (try) doing some of the test described in the DLP books, but a lot of them refrences use of a MAAP device, which is (apparently) supposed to be located in the PBX cabinet, but it isn't. The others refrence use of an "X-Ray" tape, I guess this is like XXDP to a PDP-11. But I don't have it. SO I just skipped those. Also, is there a special mailing list somewhere for people who play with old phone stuff? This is getting pretty interesting, and I really hate to keep perstering people here with this... Anyway, more tomorrow when I drag a few extensions in! ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 21:20:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <004201bee9ea$06b1fea0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 18, 99 08:24:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/681df0cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 21:21:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <001801bee9e5$1333d860$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 18, 99 07:48:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 392 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/12f1fa8b/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 21:31:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <005d01bee9eb$00bfaaa0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's those hard drives that cause those common PSU failures! If you plug them in while the PSU is running, you'll see why someone made the remark that switchmode power supplies don't like switching loads. I know . . . I do it too, but it's one of the most frequently ignored cautions. Dick -----Original Message----- From: LordTyran To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 7:27 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not >> >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so >> >for a typical 200W PSU. > >If you're lucky. I just bought (and returned) a POS PC with a 75 watt >(rated) PSU. No joke. I like to put a nice, 300W PSU in all the computers >that I build beacuse they're really not the much more expensive... and a >lot cheaper than replacing a lot of hard drives.. > >Kevin > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 21:36:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <006801bee9eb$ac42d500$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . there's a new take! an appropriate observation, too. I like the boards which require you to move a jumper to the "flash-enable" position before you can roach up the BIOS on your SCSI card. Of the half-dozen or so times I've upgraded firmware in situ, I've only left it that way once, having to return to the previous version because the board in question didn't like the "upgrade" very well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) > > >On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:48:53 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" >writes: >>You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and >>you >>reprogram them in situ. >> >>How does that effect your definitions? > > >Stupidware, n: Data entities that can be deleted by software, which, >when so deleted require de-soldering of one or more parts in order >for them to be restored. <'Modern PeeCee's are generally now equipped >with *stupidware*, as a cost saving measure.'> > > >Slushware, n: The silly practice of de-compressing firmware, and >placing it in RAM, usually in a very vulnerable area of the address >space. <"When changed the address of the BIOS on my SCSI card, the >the boot message said that I had 'corrupt *slushware*'.> > > > >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dwight Elvey >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:16 PM >>Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, >>Borland, etc) >> >> >>>"Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: >>>> >>>> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would >>have >>>> > to kill you ;-) >>>> >>>> Firmware? >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >>>plugged in. >>>Dwight >>> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 18 21:28:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990818185435.1d2f15ae@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Aug 18, 99 06:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1091 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/22b13adf/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Aug 18 22:17:51 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: from "blstuart@bellsouth.net" at Aug 18, 99 08:14:00 pm Message-ID: <199908190317.UAA09420@saul5.u.washington.edu> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest > research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you > UNIX. They seem to take great pride in naming systems with > names that make marketing cringe. The predecessor to Brazil > was Plan 9 after the infamous sci-fi movie Plan 9 From Outer > Space. Actually, I think the full name is "Plan 9 from Bell Labs", which is more faithful to the original title than "Plan 9" would be. You're right about making marketing cringe, though! -- Derek From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Aug 18 22:21:19 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: HP2100 core memory problems In-Reply-To: <001701bee9e6$01e3aa80$0101a8c0@jay> from Jay West at "Aug 18, 1999 08:56:07 pm" Message-ID: <19990819032126Z13390-26614+3@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > Well, once again I come to the well for knowledge.....:) Seeking advice from > those up on core memory > > Here's the symptoms. The full test of 8K takes about 2 hours (with a cycle > of 3). On different boards it gets to different locations before the parity > error halt. So far mostly at the middle or end, I don't recall it ever > parity halting towards the beginning. I'll get a parity error halt on say > location 012336 for example. I then manually go to the failing location and > try storing different values in the location and reading them back out (all > via the front panel). Most of the time this gives a parity error like you > would expect. But - many times it doesn't. Then just for kicks I restart the > diagnostic a few locations lower (like 012320 in this example) than the > failing location. It fails right away usually (like location 012322), quite > a few cells before the location which originally failed. This causes me > great confusion, because it's actually now failing on addresses which > previously tested OK just a few minutes ago on the previous test pass. > My gut feeling is the problem might not be with the memory board. When I see sort of random faults of this nature the first thing I think of is heat and the second is power. You mentioned that you checked the 20 volt line, but what about the others? Did you check when the problem was occuring? If its a heat problem, it could be the CPU or the memory controllers. Have you tried running it with the case open so there is better air circulation? I hope this gets you started. By the way, do you know of any good sources for parts/software for the 2100? I picked up two of them a few weeks ago and I'm in the process of cleaning them. I used to program 2100s, but that was 25 years ago. I'd like to get mine running so I can show the kids what I used to use :-). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Aug 18 22:40:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: More on that PBX... In-Reply-To: <13476555085.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > The computer itself is a 16-bit discrete-logic machine, with scattered ICs. > It spans about 7 or 8 boards for the CPU itself, and about 16 or 17 for > 64K or so of RAM. Dunno what it runs, as I can't power it on yet, but Oh shit. That many cards for the CPU and RAM. Are you sure? If you are right then this is an old sucker. I thought it would be quite a bit more modern. > about 3" long?) Anyway, I haven't found a TTY connection yet, but I > did find a Bell answer-only modem inside the rack (In fact, it had > broken free of it's mounting and was bouncing around inside the rack) > so it does have one somewhere. The modem is for remote admin of course. Probably 300 baud, possibly 1200. > More as I find it out... Keep us posted. I guess phone systems are no more off-topic than tea. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 18 22:52:05 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:17:51 -0700 (PDT) . <199908190317.UAA09420@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: In message <199908190317.UAA09420@saul5.u.washington.edu>, Derek Peschel writes : >Actually, I think the full name is "Plan 9 from Bell Labs", which is more >faithful to the original title than "Plan 9" would be. That's certainly the title of the introductory paper. In the paper, though, it's just refered to as Plan 9 and the manuals are identified as Plan 9, Volume 1 and Plan 9, Volume 2 on the copyright pages. > You're right about >making marketing cringe, though! I can't claim to have made the observation myself. I can't remember where I read it, but the statement was made by somebody at Bell Labs. I thought it was in the documents, but I don't find it at the moment. Maybe it's on their web site. Brian L. Stuart From at258 at osfn.org Wed Aug 18 22:55:22 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: More on that PBX... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ask Rax about the great bus discussions on Rovernet.... On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > The computer itself is a 16-bit discrete-logic machine, with scattered ICs. > > It spans about 7 or 8 boards for the CPU itself, and about 16 or 17 for > > 64K or so of RAM. Dunno what it runs, as I can't power it on yet, but > > Oh shit. That many cards for the CPU and RAM. Are you sure? If you are > right then this is an old sucker. I thought it would be quite a bit more > modern. > > > about 3" long?) Anyway, I haven't found a TTY connection yet, but I > > did find a Bell answer-only modem inside the rack (In fact, it had > > broken free of it's mounting and was bouncing around inside the rack) > > so it does have one somewhere. > > The modem is for remote admin of course. Probably 300 baud, possibly > 1200. > > > More as I find it out... > > Keep us posted. I guess phone systems are no more off-topic than tea. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From nabil at spiritone.com Wed Aug 18 22:59:52 1999 From: nabil at spiritone.com (Aaron Nabil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: suggestions on backplane cleaning? (or, HP2100 continued) Message-ID: <199908190359.UAA25055@ridge.spiritone.com> On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Jay West wrote: >One major problem with my 2100A has been solved (sort of). I had a card that >wouldn't work properly in a particular slot, finally got the bright idea to >move it to a different slot (I'm using polled mode, not interrupt, so this >is possible). The card works great. Problem solved? No..... > >In the troubleshooting process I noticed a few slots that no cards would >quite work right in. I checked the back of the backplane (it is a hand-wired >backplane), no loose wires, etc. After very close inspection of the >backplane slots, I determined the problem is the contacts are >dirty/corroded/whatever. I tried the best I could to clean the contacts >inside the slot, but this is virtually impossible. I also cleaned the card >edge with an eraser just to be sure. Bingo - card now works fine but only in >the cleaned slot (or one that worked previously). > >So, given that it's a delicate hand-wired backplane, does anyone have any >magic tricks for how to clean the gold contacts inside of the backplane edge >card connectors? I'm afraid to experiment and looking for wisdom... :) > >Thanks! > >Jay West Using an eraser is a no-no. See http://www.spiritone.com/~nabil/pdp8/tools.html (Tools for old computers) for a discussion of DeoxIT and PPE (polyphenyl ether). I have some more material on PPE from the manufacturer that will be added soon. If it's just dirty, something like Blue Shower/Tuner-wash followed by a PPE spray might do the trick. Look at the connectors in an unused socket, if you can see what look likes corrosion (green corrosion, purhaps) in little spots (sometime slightly raised), the connectors are hopelessly destroyed, it'll never be reliable again. That sort of electrolytic corrosion damage is very common (it's caused by microscopic defects in the plating (or people using erasers) and the metals migrating around), and short of replacing them, un-repairable. -- Aaron Nabil From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Aug 18 23:32:40 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <7049560f.24ece2e8@aol.com> In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:20:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are > accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Man, that's a fact. Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, and (crap) replacement fans for $15. Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . Glen Goodwin 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Aug 18 23:39:58 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <2d90b48f.24ece49e@aol.com> In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:31:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement > > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. > > You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ > electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit > PC power supplies ;-). Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my *computer shop* :>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Aug 18 23:42:35 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: from "blstuart@bellsouth.net" at Aug 18, 99 10:52:05 pm Message-ID: <199908190442.VAA03035@saul9.u.washington.edu> > > You're right about > >making marketing cringe, though! > > I can't claim to have made the observation myself. I can't > remember where I read it, but the statement was made by somebody > at Bell Labs. I thought it was in the documents, but I don't > find it at the moment. Maybe it's on their web site. I think it is. Even if you didn't make the statement, you're still right. :) -- Derek From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Aug 18 23:48:36 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] In-Reply-To: <7049560f.24ece2e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990818213712.00a47680@mcmanis.com> At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >Man, that's a fact. Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power >supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, and >(crap) replacement fans for $15. I believe the technical term for this would be crapitalism. >Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests >that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- >likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . Actually no, the costs aren't all that much different. At the volumes these things are produced the biggest factor on costs are (in order) labor, distribution, packaging, goods. The "margin" is a bit better on the fan than it is on the case but there is more competition on cases so they take less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial from a korean factory to your local computer haus. People who try to sell good fans have to charge $35 - $40 for them. You and I might say, "Gee, that's a damn nice fan, here's your $35." but 90% of the people walk in and say "Hey man! Why are you tryin to rip me off with this fan price, I can buy a whole case including a fan for that price!" To which your only response, "Go buy it then and get out of my shop!" Guess what. You won't sell enough to stay in business. Its called crapitalism. So you have to buy them mail order and its a lot more difficult since you can't look at them up close. The weird thing is that sometimes good stuff comes through the pipe. Fry's had an $18/case deal that turned out to have a really nice PSU and case inside. Didn't last though :-(. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 23:52:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <001201bee9fe$993f9ac0$0400c0a8@winbook> If that sticks in your craw, go back and read my original statement. It's a fact that the fan alone costs $15 more than the case with the PSU with the fan in it. What's more, it appears nobody carries the fans as a stock item. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:20:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >edick@idcomm.com writes: > >> The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are >> accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the >> rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. > >Man, that's a fact. Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power >supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, and >(crap) replacement fans for $15. > >Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests >that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- >likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Aug 18 23:53:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <001901bee9fe$d34a9d00$0400c0a8@winbook> The joke is on the one who tries to buy from a "real" elelctronics shop, where 1/4-watt resistors cost upwards of a buck . . . and the first item on the list costs $100 because that's their minimum. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 10:38 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:31:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > >> > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. >> >> You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ >> electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit >> PC power supplies ;-). > >Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my >*computer shop* :>) > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 18 23:57:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: id this board? M3118-YA In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990818172624.00a5f5a0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >The PMAX system has a board in it called a M3118-YA with two centronics >like (but smaller) connectors. Anyone know what it is? >--Chuck As a WAG, I'd guess that it is a terminal board, that uses special cables that go to special boxes, at which point you can plug the terminals in. This guess is based on the number range of the Board ID, and the fact it sounds like the boards in a DECserver 550 (well they've 4 connectors). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 19 00:23:55 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Crapitalism (was No Good Stuff) Message-ID: <1cd6e6f1.24eceeeb@aol.com> In a message dated 08/19/1999 12:48:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cmcmanis@mcmanis.com writes: > Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power > >supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, > and > >(crap) replacement fans for $15. > > I believe the technical term for this would be crapitalism. Thanks for the wonderful term. I'm hereby stealing it, er, adding it to my vocabulary. > >Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests > >that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- > >likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . > > People who try to sell good fans have to charge $35 - $40 for them. You and > I might say, "Gee, that's a damn nice fan, here's your $35." but 90% of the > people walk in and say "Hey man! Why are you tryin to rip me off with this > fan price, I can buy a whole case including a fan for that price!" To which > your only response, "Go buy it then and get out of my shop!" Guess what. > You won't sell enough to stay in business. Its called crapitalism. We sell cheap stuff for the chintzers and high quality items for our more discriminating customers. When someone assumes that we are a rip-off outfit because we sell some expensive (translate: high-quality) items I have no problem telling them to go to Circuit City. But it's still frustrating trying to convince some knucklehead that the higher quality component will probably last longer than *they* will . . . > The weird thing is that sometimes good stuff comes through the pipe. Fry's > had an $18/case deal that turned out to have a really nice PSU and case > inside. Didn't last though :-(. Yeah, we get lucky once in a while, too . . . Glen Goodwin 0/0 From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 22:31:07 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: power transformers (was imsai 2) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.19990818185435.1d2f15ae@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990818223107.226706b6@earthlink.net> Hi Tony and all, At 03:28 AM 8/19/99 +0100, you wrote: >> Yes. Good numbers to start with for power transformers are (US >> measurements, I am sure there are equivalent ones in use elsewhere): >> 6 turns/volt/square inch of core. > >We use 8 turns/volt on a 1 sq inch core over here, presumably because we >use 50Hz mains and so need larger transformers. Yes the number I gave was for 60Hz here. The 50Hz would of course give your number, both being approximate. > >FWIW those transformer kits I mentioned give the turns/volt that the >primaries are would with, and thus what you use for the secondaries. I looked here for an equivalent source without luck, which isn't too bad for 1X units where I just strip and rewind the secondary of an existing transformer. Rewinding the primary isn't too bad (120 Volts) if also required. > >> For AWG 23 wire, 1 Amp and area changes by 2x for every 3 gauge numbers. > >There are, alas, many different wire gauges in use. I normally refer to >the tables in the 'Rubber Bible'[1] before doing any serious designing. > Yes, It can be confusing, there are at least 6 wire gauges I see in the CRC Handbook. I know of AWG and SWG (for UK?). If in doubt I give the diameter of the wire (AWG 23 = 0.57mm diameter). I usually use wire tables from other places that the 'Rubber Bible' that include different enamel wire sizes and types, not "bare" copper. -Dave From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 19 01:38:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive! In-Reply-To: <13476588127.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > fun stuff. First, the console gets VERY confused when the things boots, > and for about 30 seconds or so, the alarm goes off, all (or most of) the > lights come on, and all of the various tones (intercept, dial, busy, etc.) That's pretty standard. It sounds like it's going through startup diagnostics. > sound at once. The tones themselved sound the same as the tones on the > public network today. I was hoping for something interesting... Also, I What do you expect? Horns and sirens? It's AT&T. They ARE the public network. Where are you hearing these tones? Are you listening in on a phone or the console or something? > Also, does anyone have the pinout of a trunk connector? You see, all From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Aug 19 05:42:24 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Message-ID: <802567D2.003B260F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> A week or two ago, Monty McGraw wrote: > I bought a Tek4051 while in the USAF in 1978. I developed several programs > using the 4051 for data collection and reduction. > > I would like to find one, probably for the nostalgia, I still have the my > old program listings. > > I saw the recent thread on the EXEC command, I figured out the EXEC command > and wrote a couple of 6800 assembly language programs (play music, dump the > ROMs to the printer, etc). As I recall the format of the command was EXEC > A$, where the string was typically read from the tape as a single file. Monty, you wonderful person! I will have to try this on my 4052. For this, if I ever find a 4054, you will get first refusal on my 4052 :-) Joe Rigdon had written: >> Good Luck! I only know of two 4051s and only one 4052. I have one of >>the >>4051s. None of them are for sale. Are you looking for one to collect or >>what? They are definitely rare. I know of two of each, the other 4052 being in the Dutch Computer Museum, but I heard rumours at VCF last year that another 4052 had been sold recently - I hope it was to a collector who will take care of it. I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Aug 19 05:48:36 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted Message-ID: <802567D2.003B9ED0.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I've only just caught up with list traffic since I went away... >> > > 4 5 8 C W R >> > > 3 6 9 D P D >> > > 2 7 A E L S >> > > 1 0 B F X B >> > > -------------- ------ >> > >> > Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... >> > then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? >> >> Aha! That makes perfect sense. Good eye. > > Well, it might if either the 4/3/2/1 and the 5/6/7/0 columns were in the > same order. ... but ... what's that 0 doing "after" the 7? In short, > I don't see it is vaguely appropriate for octal, either :) I don't much like 0 after 7, any more than I like 0 after 9 on a telephone dial (or keypad for that matter). But the layout above does give the digits 0 to 7 around a (non-circular) ring, so I think it would work for octal. I would have preferred either: C D E F 8 9 A B 4 5 6 7 0 1 2 3 which is a good octal and hex keypad, or: 7 8 9 F 4 5 6 E 1 2 3 D 0 A B C which incorporates the usual calculator pad. Anyone else have preferred layouts? Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Aug 19 06:00:16 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)) Message-ID: <802567D2.003D0CCF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Just to add grist for the mill, I'd point out that people now are, perhaps >> erroneously, calling recorded program material for your stereo and your TV >> 'software' as well. Now, I would call a CD or a CDROM firmware, since you >> can't really change it, but who's splitting hairs . . . > > Ah, the question of when is software software. If you want to get > really precise, I would argue that it is "stored data" when it is on > the CDROM. It does not become software until it is relocated and > available for execution in the processors address space. If you can > step a program counter (or instruction pointer or whatever you call it > on a particular architecture) across it, then it is either software or > firmware. Otherwise: If it is on paper, it is a "listing". If it is > on paper tape, it is a "dump". Etc. Of course, this opens up the > question of just what are interpreted language and p-code programs? Definitely software. Just because the program counter that steps through the code is in fact a variable in a program, rather than a register on a chip, doesn't make the code any less software. In fact, a good interpreter will probably have the program counter in a processor register if the processor has enough of these. FWIW, I would call a cd-rom a storage medium (everyone who says "a storage media" go and wash your mouths out). The code that is stored on it is software if it represents instructions for a computer. I would include embedded data (like messages the program might print) to be part of the "software", even though (you hope) they are not stepped through by the program counter. I'm not sure where you draw the line on this one - is a separate message file (a man file, for example) still software? A ROM chip is hardware. The program in it is software. Because it is stored in a ROM chip it is _also_ firmware. (IMHO). Philip. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 19 08:30:22 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: PL/I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908191130.NAA19182@horus.mch.sni.de> > IBM still offers PL/I programming tools: > http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=1825319&cgmenbr=1&cntry=840&lang=en_US > Just thought it was interesting. PL/I is (still) a serious programming language. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 03:00:19 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: References: <006901bee935$a6216ee0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908191154.HAA22890@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:28:05 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: LordTyran > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > If you're lucky. I just bought (and returned) a POS PC with a 75 watt > (rated) PSU. No joke. I like to put a nice, 300W PSU in all the computers > that I build beacuse they're really not the much more expensive... and a > lot cheaper than replacing a lot of hard drives.. That depends on chassis allowances of expansion. 2 x 2 FD and HD bays 3 slots, K6-3 support then it needs at least 150W in that small box. (K6-3 draws about 30W all itself.) If 1 or slotless, 1 x 1 FD and HD low end CPU like celeron or so 75 to 100W is plenty enough. We had no problems selling consumer machines with 200W for baby AT and 235W ATX stuff. PSU switchers get more efficient when loaded most of it's rated power not hard on 235W, like 200W or so. Did sold few higher capacity 250W ATX cases. But I'm not too convinced. Seen inside one of PSU years ago that listed input max amp for fuse to determine the total capacity but not allowing for compnonent sizing. (!!) AND, I expect that PSU have ball bearing fan, do you? > > Kevin Wizard PS: I have a stuffed ATX box mix of old and new cards, 2x HD, 1 cdrom, fd, PII 350, 64MB (ran 128MB fine). All on (drumroll) 235W atx psu. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 19 09:01:36 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted In-Reply-To: <802567D2.003B9ED0.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199908191201.OAA21149@horus.mch.sni.de> >>>>> 4 5 8 C W R >>>>> 3 6 9 D P D >>>>> 2 7 A E L S >>>>> 1 0 B F X B >>>>> -------------- ------ > I don't much like 0 after 7, any more than I like 0 after 9 on a telephone dial > (or keypad for that matter). > But the layout above does give the digits 0 to 7 around a (non-circular) ring, > so I think it would work for octal. > I would have preferred either: > C D E F > 8 9 A B > 4 5 6 7 > 0 1 2 3 > which is a good octal and hex keypad, or: > 7 8 9 F > 4 5 6 E > 1 2 3 D > 0 A B C > which incorporates the usual calculator pad. > Anyone else have preferred layouts? Well, 1 2 3 A 4 5 6 B 7 8 9 C 0 D E F to incooperate the telephone Keyboard, but personaly I go for one of the regular 4x4 layouts like: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 19 08:17:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990819081719.3e87b42e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:02 PM 8/18/99 -0700, Wayne wrote: >My serial number project is going slowly. I only received two responses (thanks, Charlie and Joe) and so my sample set has a woeful three date points:13352 (Charlie's), 13513 (mine, sold 1/77) and 14213 (Joe's, sold 9/77). Perhaps a rate of about 1000 units per year in 1977, but too little info to tell. If this rate is correct, I would suspect the the numbering began around 12000 or so. > >C'mon everybody, have a look at the back of your 5100 (the number is engraved into the back of the case, usually preceeded by a "10-") and keep those numbers coming. Actually mine is on a metal plate on the bottom of the machine. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 19 08:35:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: HP2100 core memory problems In-Reply-To: <001701bee9e6$01e3aa80$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990819083525.3c5f59f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jay, It's possible that you have a problem in the parity generator and/or checking circuit. Is there anyway that you can turn off parity checking and check each word bit for bit against what you wrote? Joe At 08:56 PM 8/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >Well, once again I come to the well for knowledge.....:) Seeking advice from >those up on core memory > >I'm kinda lost on checking out the memory in my HP 2100. I have two 2100's, >each with four 8K boards or 32k per machine. I had lots of parity errors so >I lined up all eight 8K boards on the bench and reconfigured the memory >controller for 8K total rather than 32K (test one board at a time). I put in >one of the boards and ran a small memory test (not a diag tape, but a core >memory test from the CE guide via the front panel).The core test has three >"controlling" locations, one location for the first address to test, one for >the last address, and then how many cycles per memory location. A cycle is >defined as writing all zeros, read, and compare - then writing all ones, >read, and compare all on a single location. > >Here's the symptoms. The full test of 8K takes about 2 hours (with a cycle >of 3). On different boards it gets to different locations before the parity >error halt. So far mostly at the middle or end, I don't recall it ever >parity halting towards the beginning. I'll get a parity error halt on say >location 012336 for example. I then manually go to the failing location and >try storing different values in the location and reading them back out (all >via the front panel). Most of the time this gives a parity error like you >would expect. But - many times it doesn't. Then just for kicks I restart the >diagnostic a few locations lower (like 012320 in this example) than the >failing location. It fails right away usually (like location 012322), quite >a few cells before the location which originally failed. This causes me >great confusion, because it's actually now failing on addresses which >previously tested OK just a few minutes ago on the previous test pass. > >Every 8K board I have exhibits this problem, but all at different locations. >Supposedly both machines worked fine before they were put in storage 20 >years ago, so these weren't picked up out of a junk heap or anything. >Cosmetically they're beautiful inside and out. I've also tried switching the >XY driver boards, the memory controller, etc. etc. but I can't seem to get >anything stable enough to start intelligently swapping parts when every >combination is bad. In case it matters, each 8K board is 17 bits per word (1 >parity plus 16 data bits). Also, it isn't a complete failure - I've keyed in >many other programs from the front panel and read in paper tapes (a suite of >I/O tests and such) that all run fine so I know the system is somewhat >coherent. I've checked the power supply for the memory cage and it's >supposed to be 20 volts - my VOM came up with 20.48 ISTR, which is probably >close enough I would think. Can anyone suggest a course of action or >possible culprits in this situation? I suspect I can't see the forest for >the trees anymore :) > >Thanks! > >Jay West > > From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 03:50:28 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <7049560f.24ece2e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <199908191244.IAA19076@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:32:40 EDT > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Glenatacme@aol.com > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > Man, that's a fact. Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power > supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, and > (crap) replacement fans for $15. > > Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests > that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- > likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . Not really, Most cheapie chinse cases were shipped without PSUs. I know because I used to work for short term at one crap shop. And many who do sell junk cases has psu already but some decent cases got decent PSU removed and lower quality PSU put in to expand profit margins. If someone do find a exact case that is decent one with different PSU (usually lower quality than case itself) other than the original case maker put in with. CRY FOUL TIME! > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 > Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 03:50:28 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:54 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <005d01bee9eb$00bfaaa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908191244.IAA19094@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:31:54 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: > It's those hard drives that cause those common PSU failures! If you plug > them in while the PSU is running, you'll see why someone made the remark > that switchmode power supplies don't like switching loads. Those FOOLS! (I come down hard on some dimwit people like this not on this list, thank goodness). That is best way to blow out HD and motherboard! PSU is expendable. Do that job with unpowered machine always. SCSI is powered on termination power for example. Hint: found popped fuse in a scsi scanner I fixed. SCSI is best for "hot" swap if the hardware used is capable of it especially that removeable rails. IDE can't redetect specs till reboot the machine (now you see what I mean). SCSI allows you to "hot" refresh without rebooting the machine. > I know . . . I do it too, but it's one of the most frequently ignored > cautions. > > Dick > Sheesh. WIzard From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 03:50:28 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <004201bee9ea$06b1fea0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908191244.IAA19081@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:24:54 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: > I've had plenty of PSU's fail, but the price is not as good an indicator of > the probability as you might believe. I've got two machines of about the > same age and content, yet one has had three PSU's over the 10 years it's > been in use, while the other has the one it had when I got it. I realize > that's unusual, but it can happen. Do you have database on all the failed PSUs brands? (Important) I know of at least 3 brands that really take the cake for failing. Jaba (rebranded Canadian seller) Touch (remember now), Enermax and few other oddball names. Remember, 10 dollar PSU can be branded as 100 dollar thing and 20 dollar PSU can be decent with ball bearing fan in it and sold as $25 thus. That is why I agree with that price thing can't be done. Same story on heatsinks/fan. :-) In computer show, I even asked pointed Q to few resellers about heatsink fan about ball bearing type and I bought same type everywhere else and took home. Then tore it apart, SLEEVE for a $20 USD thing. We sell decent heatsinks w/ ball bearing always, nice thing is it's $15 canadian. Even it's for 486, pentium, K6 etc. That is one other primary reasons we sell boxed CPUs because of this. Wizard PS: I went through several heatsinks w/ fan types in few months once while in US. Got tired of it and jerry-rigged a tallest heatsink I can find in my junk hoard and a ball bearing out of a dead PSU in front of motherboard where CPU is. That original arrangement went for 3 years now. > Dick From max82 at surfree.com Thu Aug 19 09:16:31 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) Message-ID: <004601beea4d$7ebab820$0101a8c0@fred> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest > research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you > UNIX. They seem to take great pride in naming systems with > names that make marketing cringe. The predecessor to Brazil > was Plan 9 after the infamous sci-fi movie Plan 9 From Outer > Space. Any data on this BrazilOS? From max82 at surfree.com Thu Aug 19 09:22:19 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] Message-ID: <006101beea4e$4d03dcc0$0101a8c0@fred> >At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >from a korean factory to your local computer haus. What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 19 09:30:09 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Used Exabyte wanted Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990819093009.010119a0@vpwisfirewall> I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good price. An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay. - John From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Aug 19 09:49:43 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Modcomp Classic news Message-ID: <37BC1987.B61C5F84@digiweb.com> Well my request for info on the Modcomp Classis did not result in much! One resonse to a usenet post netted someone who still runs one. Anyways, the guy that gave us the Modcomp found the complete maintenance doc set! So now I have the schematics, theroy of operation manuals, diagnostoic manuals - the works. One happy camper here is going to bring up that classic computer real soon now.... Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 19 09:52:25 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 In-Reply-To: <802567D2.003B260F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > ...I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... Well, I can do better than just a rumour... Go here: http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/jcgm-mic.shtml and scroll down toward the bottom of the page... (things are fairly alphabetical) Then the things that came with it that are not shown yet... Plotter, printer, docs, tape libraries, ROM cartridges, etc... And by the way... It runs! B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Aug 19 10:10:08 1999 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53D2F@MAIL10> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:24:13 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >>You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in >>them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, >>ever learn! >>I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a >>screwdriver ended up in the wall.) I've gotten pliers flung across the room; screwdrivers welded. Not to mention that uncomfortable tingling feeling in my arm :-). Rich -------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Cini Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) rcini@congressfinancial.com From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Aug 19 10:11:45 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Message-ID: <802567D2.0053FC0B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> ...I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... > > Well, I can do better than just a rumour... Go here: > > http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/jcgm-mic.shtml > > and scroll down toward the bottom of the page... (things are fairly > alphabetical) > > Then the things that came with it that are not shown yet... Plotter, > printer, docs, tape libraries, ROM cartridges, etc... > > And by the way... It runs! B^} You lucky beggar! Hey! Didn't I say that when you announced the find? My memory must be going. Get the technical manuals from Tek - "Technical Data" and "Parts List and Schematics". Expensive - expect to pay $300 the pair - but worth it. Invaluable for repairs, and I have had to do several of those since I got my machine (mostly PSU failures). I can get you part numbers for the manuals if this will help. 4054A is the nicest of the 4050 series. 4054 has the large screen and A signifies faster GPIB and extended BASIC... Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Aug 19 10:27:18 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13476729706.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Where am I hearing tones?] The console, when I pick up an idle loop. [Digital Centrex?] No, it's POTS Centrex. When I say 4-line phones, I mean a phone in which the connector has 2 pairs, and it has 2 such connectors. But not all 4 pairs are always live... [Do I understand loop/ground/e&m start?] Nope, but I've heard them before. This is the first time I've really played with phone stuff besides T-1 and ISDN stuff. I have a very basic idea of how the network works, but nothing past that. ------- From bill at chipware.com Thu Aug 19 10:40:23 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908190113.SAA29969@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001301beea59$26c44b20$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > I have no problem with it being on the front panel. Why does > anyone have trouble with that but not with the hot fuse on the > mother board. I have been bitten by the fuse several times > ( slow learner ) but not once by the front panel. Trick showed me by the guy I got my IMSAI from: Cut the bottom off of a Tic-Tac box. Makes a perfect cover. In all the time I've been working on mine, must be more than 30 hours now, I have not taken a shot from the front panel. Of course, I've been warned. From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Aug 19 11:00:01 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] Message-ID: <01BEEA3A.5EC2A590.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It > doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. > When you have an unskilled and underpaid workforce, using inferior materials and processes, that's the ONLY kind of product you can produce. > > On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes > because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher > quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... > There are better products available. It's just that most consumers can't justify buying the more expensive products. One of the problems in the computer industy is the pace of the technology and the speed at which products depreciate. Because of this, computer systems (PCs in particular) have become very short term investments. How many people or companies believe their PCs will last for more than a few years? Would you spend $400 for a case and PS that's powering a 386? I certainly wouldn't. Unless of course it is critical to my business or my welfare. Now a harder question. Would you spend $400 for a case and PS that's powering a new Zeon 550? I wouldn't... Just remember, todays Zeon 550 is tomorrows 386. In contrast, the opposite thing is happening in the automobile industry. People are realizing that a car is a long term investment and the higher quality (price) is easily justified. There's a lot more $40,000 cars being sold than $7,000 cars. Steve Robertson - From elvey at hal.com Thu Aug 19 11:21:06 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <001801bee9e5$1333d860$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908191621.JAA03197@civic.hal.com> Hi Dick You can still grab it and remove it ( a little harder ). It is still firmware. You put software into firmware. Like most definitions, that came about early on, there are gray areas. This entire 'what if' is silly. Software is what runs and may be in firmware. If we didn't have another name for a hard disk, it would have fallen under the firmware definition. The code that runs is still software. I had a calculator once that used a spool of steel tape to contain the program. It was still firmware but the information on it was software. Dwight "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you > reprogram them in situ. > > How does that effect your definitions? > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight Elvey > > > >"Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > >> > >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > >> > to kill you ;-) > >> > >> Firmware? > >> > >> > > > >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is > >plugged in. > >Dwight > > From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Aug 19 11:34:18 1999 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53D35@MAIL10> Hello, all: I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the desire to move down the power curve a bit. I would have no problem buying a new-old machine. I understand, though, that it's not an "as-issued" original, but a newly-manufactured unit based on original engineering drawings with some enhancements. Yes, it's not original, but, hey, it looks great from the front! I don't necessarily agree with the use of a PC power supply, but that feature makes it easy to add PC peripherals such as hard drives, floppies, or CD-R drives, should the need arise. My concern would be using legacy S100 cards on a new power buss. And this step-up regulation scheme concerns me. Why not just use a transformer from Stancor??? My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. Non-functional, but pretty. And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level and interest to assemble one myself. Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware. Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional machine. If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, either. Rich -------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Cini Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) rcini@congressfinancial.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 19 14:05:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199908191705.TAA06114@horus.mch.sni.de> > > As pertaining to classic computers, the movie also has a brilliant parody > > of computers. They look like very old-fashioned teletypes with a bare (the > > entire CRT and circuitry is open to view) screen about 4" diagonal > > enlarged by a huge flat magnifying glass. Again, you have to see it... > Sounds a lot like the computer props in that old Max Headroom TV series > (anyone ever watch that? It was mildly cool). mildly cool ? _way_ cool. On of the best serials ever made - I'll love the scenes where Amstrad and Sinclair parts are used as props - in most cases well disgused, but still visible enough for geeks. Being an intelligent and sophisticated series, it was, of course, cancelled after one season. AFAIK Max Headroom is still the only real cyberpunk serial. In fact, I know only one other competitive (US made) show: Sledge Hammer! - but just on a somewhat different background ;) It looks like as if the mid 80s have been a _very_ creative time for unusual experiments. Gruss H. 'Remember when we said there was no future? Well, this is it.' Blank Reg, Big Time TV ('there's not enough power in that bus to zip up me trousers, never mind a network satellite' - same - I love both quotes) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Aug 19 14:05:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990817095550.00ab6390@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <199908191705.TAA06119@horus.mch.sni.de> > > >Nope, customs was very painless for us both ways. When we got to customs > > >back in the US, there were three paths. Paths 1 and 2 led to a search of > > >your bags, path 3 led to freedom. The customs dude looked at our > > >passports, looked at us, and then directed us to path 3. Freedom. > > Path 3?? Jeeez, I saw your photo online re VCF and I find this extremely > > hard to believe!! > Yeah, and an Arabic name to boot! Makes you wonder whether these guys > are doing their job or not. I vote for 'not', but thats not that bad - last year, when I entered JFK with two bags of classic computers, I realy tried to get them 'legal' into ... they insist in not checking anything for customs ! Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 19 12:25:40 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 Message-ID: <990819132540.202006e9@trailing-edge.com> > And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: >22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a >warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.) I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI" as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to justify the effort. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Aug 19 12:27:10 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: HP2100 core memory problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990819083525.3c5f59f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > At 08:56 PM 8/18/99 -0500, Jay wrote: > >Well, once again I come to the well for knowledge.....:) Seeking advice from > >those up on core memory > > > >I'm kinda lost on checking out the memory in my HP 2100. I have two 2100's, > >each with four 8K boards or 32k per machine. I had lots of parity errors so > >I lined up all eight 8K boards on the bench... Ok, here is one that is likely to sound a bit odd, but... (you asked for it) B^} Let the machine warm up for a while before running the test. Core being rather timing sensitive, it has been related to me from another local collector that his PDP-8 (yes, a 'straight' 8) with core is completely useless until is has idled for thirty minutes to an hour (depending on the ambient temperature) to allow internal temperatures to stabilize. He has mentioned sections that will refuse to store data, fail memory tests, etc... All of which mysteriously vanish after a 'warm up' period. FWIW -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 19 12:29:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive! In-Reply-To: <13476729706.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Where am I hearing tones?] > > The console, when I pick up an idle loop. What do you mean by "idle loop"? > [Do I understand loop/ground/e&m start?] > > Nope, but I've heard them before. > This is the first time I've really played with phone stuff besides > T-1 and ISDN stuff. I have a very basic idea of how the network works, > but nothing past that. Well, e-mail me if the phone system fails to "seize" the line when you dial the trunk access code and I'll explain. They are all most likely just configured for loop start in your PBX, which is what a POTS line is. I can explain the different line types in e-mail. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Aug 19 12:29:34 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 Message-ID: <19990819.122936.108.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:34:18 -0400 "Cini, Richard" writes: > Hello, all: > > I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last > few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a > "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the > desire to move down the power curve a bit. Not to mention recent E-Bay prices. > My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof > case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front > panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. > Non-functional, but pretty. Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. > And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? > Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. > Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting > a lower number. I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. > I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only > have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target > audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level > and interest to assemble one myself. Well that was the whole point, wasn't it, eh? You built it yourself because you a) Had more time than money or b) That's the only way you could get it. I dunno about you, but I certainly fell into the 'more time than money' category (and *still* couldn't afford it). I believe his target audience has 'more money than {time | brains}'. I dunno Rich, I always figured you as a pretty smart guy. Maybe on a budget, too. Would be better just to buy the 'unique' bits, and piece one together yourself (utilizing the PSU of your choice). BTW, what's wrong with your Horizon (just curious)? > Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware. Um, until he comes up with at least bare boards and stuff, yep, fer sure. > Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think > that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional > machine. Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. > If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could > restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, > either. True, although this would be the way to go, assuming the price is right. Even if you just have a pile of old boards, as i said before, just get the 'unique' stuff, then fill in the gaps with off-the-shelf items. That's essentially what we did in the old days. I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! Anyway, more then my $0.02, but hey, there it is. Jeff > > Rich > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Richard Cini > Vice President > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) > rcini@congressfinancial.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Aug 19 12:37:30 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13476753408.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What do I mean by idle loop?] On the console there are 6 buttons for each loop, whatever a loop is. When I pick up an idle one (which they all are), I get a dial tone. ------- From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 19 12:41:05 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Max Headroom In-Reply-To: <199908191705.TAA06114@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990819124105.0106be40@vpwisfirewall> At 07:06 PM 8/19/99 +1, Hans Franke wrote: > >mildly cool ? >_way_ cool. >On of the best serials ever made - I'll love the scenes where >Amstrad and Sinclair parts are used as props - in most >cases well disgused, but still visible enough for geeks. >Being an intelligent and sophisticated series, it was, >of course, cancelled after one season. AFAIK Max Headroom >is still the only real cyberpunk serial. I had the pleasure of visiting the Max Headroom set to interview Richard Lewis for Amazing Computing magazine, an Amiga magazine. Stop me if I've told this story here already. Amigas were used to generate all sorts of low-rent video effects for the show: Videoscape for 3D-ish effects, Deluxe Paint anims for others. I think I interviewed the teen who played Bryce. Amanda Pays wasn't around, sadly. :-) I did get to play on several of the sets - Reg's bus, Theora's apartment, Bryce's hangout, the network board room, a fun false-perspective hallway. I watched them shoot a few scenes. I think I still have the press kit around here Somewhere. It was my first exposure to Hollywood. What struck me was how utterly tenuous it was. In a few weeks after my visit, the show was cancelled and everything disappears: people, sets, props. Techies like Lewis were whipping up effects in the most meager digs that gave me the impression they were temporary buildings erected in the 1940s but that had been fortified only by layers of paint over the years. I think those sound stages were once part of MGM, so perhaps Max was filmed on the same stage as the Wizard of Oz. (Extra credit given to anyone who can name the connection between the movie and my teen hometown of Oconomowoc, Wisconsin.) - John From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 12:48:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] Message-ID: <002c01beea6b$2979c900$0400c0a8@winbook> Packaging, and packagin engineering is expensive. If you take a close look at those Packard-Bell or other US-made computers sold in the US, you'll see better packaging that what's common in home-built/assembled computers. Unfortunately, the better packaging accompanies a computer built with the necessary offsetting quality in the "guts" which is a shame. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:23 AM Subject: Re: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] >>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >>less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >>from a korean factory to your local computer haus. > > >What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It >doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. > >On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes >because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher >quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 12:52:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Used Exabyte wanted Message-ID: <002f01beea6b$9594a6a0$0400c0a8@winbook> I just sold my spare 8505XL, but you should have no trouble finding one for sale by searching dejanews power search using the string "SALE & EXABYTE." The software supporting these drives is so shabby that of the four major packages (of which I have all) for Windows, only one really works in the general case, and not a one works predictably. My DOS-based software works perfectly every time with it, though, as with the EXB-8200's which are more common and more poorly supported because they're SCSI-1. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: [OT] Used Exabyte wanted > >I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good price. >An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice >at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay. > >- John > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 19 12:57:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908191705.TAA06114@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > On of the best serials ever made - I'll love the scenes where > Amstrad and Sinclair parts are used as props - in most > cases well disgused, but still visible enough for geeks. I don't remember seeing them, but of course back then I wouldn't have known if I was looking at a Sinclair or a Amstrad. If it wasn't Apple ][ it was CRAP! > Being an intelligent and sophisticated series, it was, > of course, cancelled after one season. AFAIK Max Headroom > is still the only real cyberpunk serial. What about Automan? Oh, well I guess he was a superhero, not a Cyberpunk. > In fact, I know only one other competitive (US made) show: > Sledge Hammer! - but just on a somewhat different background ;) That was a great show. But I liked it better with the laugh track, because then you knew what was supposed to be funny :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 19 13:03:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 In-Reply-To: <19990819.122936.108.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been > spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling > to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. And you know what? He probably will. > I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured > that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. If I had $995 to blow (like I just robbed a bank) I'd get one. > Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this > 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's > just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. Hey, that's c{r}apitalism. > I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed > expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm You got it. > confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: > > RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! And you know what? It will be the first "RARE" label on an e-bay ad that will be truthful. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Aug 19 13:05:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive! In-Reply-To: <13476753408.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [What do I mean by idle loop?] > > On the console there are 6 buttons for each loop, whatever a loop is. > When I pick up an idle one (which they all are), I get a dial tone. Hmm, interesting. I wonder if that means this switch is only capable of 6 simultaneous connections? Most modern switches (from 80s on) use a time division multiplexed bus that allow a much greater number of connections (usually 256 or more). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 13:06:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <004601beea6d$942155a0$0400c0a8@winbook> OK, you can remove it by desoldering or whatever, but what about the distinction between the unprogrammed part, e.g. FPGA when the power's off, and when it's on and loaded? It's still hardware, isn't it? It's just different hardware when the configuration code is in it and powered, or is it? Now, what about the pseudo hard-disks sold on PCMCIA cards as "flash-disk" or whatever. Is the stuff stored there firmware or is it software? I see a change in the generalized definition of "soft" vs. "hard" in this context in a much more general sense. People talk about machine-readable copy, e.g. data on floppy disk, as "soft" copy, and they talk about purportedly fixed specifications or code segments, or definitions, as being "hard" implying they're, at least relatively, "etched in concrete," as opposed to being etched in "silly-putty" as some spec's are. It's just an observation. I was just getting comfortable referring to loadable programs/data, as one might store on rotating memory, as software, nonvolatile programs and data (Yes, tables in a code body are data.) stored in PALs, NVRAM, PROM, ROM, etc, as firmware. There's never been a question about what the stuff you see, touch, hear when it's running, and may smell when it's not, as hardware. Who knows, though. I couldn't believe it when I learned that "duhh" was in the dictionary as a word. I heard yesterday that the latest Webster has the Seinfeldism "yadda yadda yadda" as a word. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >Hi Dick > You can still grab it and remove it ( a little harder ). >It is still firmware. You put software into firmware. >Like most definitions, that came about early on, there >are gray areas. This entire 'what if' is silly. >Software is what runs and may be in firmware. If we didn't have >another name for a hard disk, it would have fallen >under the firmware definition. The code that runs >is still software. I had a calculator once that used a >spool of steel tape to contain the program. It was still >firmware but the information on it was software. >Dwight > >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you >> reprogram them in situ. >> >> How does that effect your definitions? >> >> Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dwight Elvey >> >> >> >"Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: >> >> >> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> >> > to kill you ;-) >> >> >> >> Firmware? >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >> >plugged in. >> >Dwight >> > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Aug 19 13:14:14 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... References: <01be3f45$d27f3d40$2d9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <37BC4975.8F32BA9E@bigfoot.com> Jason (the General) wrote: > Nope. No free slot. The long slot has an IBM 3363 controller in it, and > the other slot won't accept a long cart, because it hits the cooling fan. > Anyone know what the short slot's for? > short cards - duh! sound cards, token ring, and man others come in short versions. My wife's has a full length memory card and a short ethernet card. The machine had a short token ring card in it at first. BTW it works fantastic with a Make-It 486 upgrade chip, even runs Win95 without problem. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 13:20:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 Message-ID: <009701beea6f$91923460$0400c0a8@winbook> Back in the '70's, and maybe into the early '80's, the rule of thumb was to multiply manufacturing cost by 4 to estimate the minimum retail price of a piece of electronic gear. I don't know how to estimate the cost of the components any better than has already been done here, but I would imagine that Todd Fischer is collecting orders as a means of estimating the potential for his product along with paying for tooling and other non-recurring costs. I'm relieved that his product is, as yet, vaporware, because I personally don't see the benefit in having a 22-slot mainframe with a power supply of the sort describe on the IMSAI web site, just as I'm having trouble with the notion that people would pay $1k for a box with a front panel and little else. Based on the notion that SOME people will, I don't see his price as excessive for what it might be. I do have the sense that the WHAT is still TBD. There's no shortage of S-100 mainframes from what I've seen. I see three or four every year for about $25, which nearly compensates the consignee for the space they take up. I have about six which I 'd happily give up. That would still leave me plenty. The original notion I remember seeing was to have the IMSAI "look" wedded to a current generation Pentium class processor. I don't see a niche for that, however. All we can do is wait and hope Todd Fischer comes to what more of would consider to be his senses and reshapes his intended product. It is HIS, though . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:24 AM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: >>22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a >>warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. > >Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about >in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for >the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.) >I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI" >as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with >very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to >justify the effort. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 19 13:26:32 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] In-Reply-To: <006101beea4e$4d03dcc0$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <4.1.19990819112508.009a3340@mcmanis.com> First point, Glen didn't write this I did ... >>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >>less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >>from a korean factory to your local computer haus. At 10:22 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Max wrote: >What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It >doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. As I mentioned in my message, sometimes its good and sometimes its crap. The difference seems to be on how discriminating the buyer happened to be at the time. --Chuck From elvey at hal.com Thu Aug 19 13:34:45 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <004601beea6d$942155a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908191834.LAA03216@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > OK, you can remove it by desoldering or whatever, but what about the > distinction between the unprogrammed part, e.g. FPGA when the power's off, > and when it's on and loaded? It's still hardware, isn't it? It's just > different hardware when the configuration code is in it and powered, or is > it? Hi Kind of a gray area but it is a piece of hardware that is firmware configured by software that was loaded into it. > > Now, what about the pseudo hard-disks sold on PCMCIA cards as "flash-disk" > or whatever. Is the stuff stored there firmware or is it software? It is firmware, the stuff stored on it is still software or data. > > I see a change in the generalized definition of "soft" vs. "hard" in this > context in a much more general sense. People talk about machine-readable > copy, e.g. data on floppy disk, as "soft" copy, and they talk about > purportedly fixed specifications or code segments, or definitions, as being > "hard" implying they're, at least relatively, "etched in concrete," as > opposed to being etched in "silly-putty" as some spec's are. I think the problem is the sense of what is meant. Hardware is things that you can solder in. Yes, that includes PROMs. Firmware is hardware that contains software. That could also be something like a PROM. Software is what tells the processor what to do. So, you can have hardware that is firmware that contains software that runs on the machine. I think the problem is that you are trying to make software, firmware and hardware the same thing. It is like making automobiles and drivers the same thing. We don't have a seperate name for the auto with a driver in it like the word firmware but we could have. The automobile is clearly not the driver and the driver is clearly not the automobile. The combination isn't either of the two, it is something different ( but not specifically named in the english language ). Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 14:40:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 Message-ID: <000a01beea7a$ca1472c0$0400c0a8@winbook> What are the chances that a "collector," that being a personality type rather than just a person who saves old stuff, would go for one of these largely phony (except the front panel) IMSAI-2 as a collectible? I'd have trouble swallowing that anyone could be taken in to that extent. You won't have much trouble convincing me that there are lots of people out there who'd pay $1k for what is essentially a reproduction, no matter how authentic in places and inauthentic in others. The motto to which many people live is "appearance over substance" and that would certainly apply here. OTOH, it's hard to be discriminating where ALTAIR and IMSAI are concerned. I'm not even sure whether either of them produced a truly complete and functional board set. If a system is going to be viewed as authentic, then it has to be more than just housed in an authentic box. If it has a Tarbell FDC, then it's not an IMSAI in the true sense of the word. Now, if IMSAI didn't ever make an FDC, then there's room for debate. It's the same way with ALTAIR. If you want to claim you have an ALTAIR computer running in your basement then what's down there had best be ALTAIR stuff, not just an ALTAIR CPU in a Morrow box with a CCS FDC and a COMPUPRO serial board. If you have an Integrand box, I guess you can call your computer an Integrand no matter what's in it, since they only made the boxes, right? I think that's the mentality that drives the eBay prices up. If you have a VERY pretty Daimler Benz hood ornament, with Chevrolet wheels, a Ford engine, a BMW emblem on the rear bonnet of a Corvair, with a Corvette steering wheel, what do you call your car (not that those parts would play together) ? For the collector, it's VERY important that all the parts fit, not just essentially, but exactly. That means that if IMSAI made one (whatever that might be), your system isn't complete without it. If you restore your '57 Chevy with parts carefully sought out at the junkyards within a 1000 mile radius of your home, and with "real" parts and real lead in the body work, and original upholstery, etc, it's not the same as the one built from whatever after-market parts you could find. It may look good, but it isn't "real" is it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 12:01 PM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been >> spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling >> to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. > >And you know what? He probably will. > >> I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured >> that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. > >If I had $995 to blow (like I just robbed a bank) I'd get one. > >> Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this >> 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's >> just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. > >Hey, that's c{r}apitalism. > >> I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed >> expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm > >You got it. > >> confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: >> >> RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! > >And you know what? It will be the first "RARE" label on an e-bay ad that >will be truthful. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 19 14:17:43 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] In-Reply-To: <01BEEA3A.5EC2A590.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: >> What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It >> doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power >supply. >> > >When you have an unskilled and underpaid workforce, using inferior >materials and processes, that's the ONLY kind of product you can produce. Are power supplies some big trouble spot lately? My impression is that they have a similar failure rate to anything else in the box, and that both premium and low cost replacements are easy to find and, well replace with. For the paranoid, get em while I have em, I have some telecom PC power supplies that run off 42 to 57 vdc input with the typical PC outputs. 150 watts, but these are not cheap units, made by Computer Products for NetBridge I think. From cureau at centuryinter.net Thu Aug 19 15:42:20 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... Message-ID: <37BC6C2B.1EC148CB@centuryinter.net> Hey, everyone. :-) I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? Thanks in advance, Chris From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 19 17:11:10 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... In-Reply-To: <37BC6C2B.1EC148CB@centuryinter.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990819171110.3e975f68@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chris, Nope but I have a 5363 that needs a home! (currently in Florida). Joe At 03:42 PM 8/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hey, everyone. :-) > > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? > > Thanks in advance, > Chris > > From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Aug 19 16:13:23 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Airport Customs was: Re: OT: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908191705.TAA06119@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <4.1.19990817095550.00ab6390@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990819165151.00a68de0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:06 PM 8/19/99 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: >> > >Nope, customs was very painless for us both ways. When we got to customs >> > >back in the US, there were three paths. Paths 1 and 2 led to a search of >> > >your bags, path 3 led to freedom. The customs dude looked at our >> > >passports, looked at us, and then directed us to path 3. Freedom. > >> > Path 3?? Jeeez, I saw your photo online re VCF and I find this extremely >> > hard to believe!! > >> Yeah, and an Arabic name to boot! Makes you wonder whether these guys >> are doing their job or not. > >I vote for 'not', but thats not that bad - last year, when I entered >JFK with two bags of classic computers, I realy tried to get them >'legal' into ... they insist in not checking anything for customs ! I can't recall how you told me you brought them over (hand carry or checked with baggage) but if they were checked, I'm sure they were sniffed all over by the dogs in M?nchen Flughafen and x-rayed until they smoked. However, if indeed they were hand carried, which I *think* I recall your saying, then JFK security messed up. Then again, I know you travel quite a bit and when they checked your passport in that scanning machine the computer said "He's okay" probably based upon info from Interpol, US State Department and various customs agencies worldwide. When I flew into Frankfurt back in '94 or '95 the customs officer just waved me through without caring to even *look* at my passport. I then flew on to D?sseldorf. He probably thought I was either a German which I often was considered as in Bavaria (before I would open my big mouth and speak :) or one of those US Military or Government guys who usually come through from the States without any problem ever. Makes you kind of wonder. The bombing at Frankfurt ten years ago or more is still remembered by me and others. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 19 15:15:13 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Quiet quite good fans In-Reply-To: <004201bee9ea$06b1fea0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are >accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the >rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Digikey has some nice ones. Big thread a while back in the pro audio newsgroups about a quiet high quality fan replacements. From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 19 15:10:25 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? In-Reply-To: <199908182252.SAA12418@world.std.com> Message-ID: I noticed my friends AlphaServer 2100 has the same card poking out the back as one of the cards in my neatly sorted pile of old ethernet cards. The card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 19 15:20:33 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: <199908190317.UAA09420@saul5.u.washington.edu> References: from "blstuart@bellsouth.net" at Aug 18, 99 08:14:00 pm Message-ID: >Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >> And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest >> research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you >> UNIX. They seem to take great pride in naming systems with >> names that make marketing cringe. The predecessor to Brazil >> was Plan 9 after the infamous sci-fi movie Plan 9 From Outer >> Space. > >Actually, I think the full name is "Plan 9 from Bell Labs", which is more >faithful to the original title than "Plan 9" would be. You're right about >making marketing cringe, though! Interesting since the marketing behind M$ OSes is directly from Plan 9 from outer space, "you earthlings are stupid, stupid, stupid." Best I can do before my morning tea, and yes its been one of those days. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 13:39:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: HP2100 core memory problems In-Reply-To: <19990819032126Z13390-26614+3@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Aug 18, 99 09:21:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/caec6a6d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 13:42:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <2d90b48f.24ece49e@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Aug 19, 99 00:39:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/672f7c0e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 16:26:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted In-Reply-To: <802567D2.003B9ED0.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Aug 19, 99 11:48:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/a8311b61/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 16:40:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] In-Reply-To: <006101beea4e$4d03dcc0$0101a8c0@fred> from "Max Eskin" at Aug 19, 99 10:22:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/5077db85/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 16:14:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <001901bee9fe$d34a9d00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 18, 99 10:53:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/6c509876/attachment.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Aug 19 17:17:27 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... Message-ID: <01BEEA6F.18C5ACB0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > Chris, > > Nope but I have a 5363 that needs a home! (currently in Florida). > > Joe > > > At 03:42 PM 8/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hey, everyone. :-) > > > > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to > >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. > >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the > >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Chris > > > > Chris, There seem to be a BUNCH of variants of the 536X systems so it's hard to predict what's gonna be inside. I think mine is an early example because it will only support drives up to 60MB each. Currently, it has a 60MB and a 30MB drive installed. I think some of the later models had drives in the 1GB range but, I'm not positive of that. I have a complete set of user manuals but, they don't have much detail about the hardware. As a matter of fact, I couldn't even tell ya how much RAM mine has in it. My guess is somewhere around 512KB. But, that's just a guess. The system is dog slow but, is supposed to be pretty solid. I've also got one of those heavy ass printers. Built like a rock, works like a champ! Those systems generally ran COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, RPG, or ASSEMBLY. Unfortunately, RPG is the only package currently installed on mine. Anyone know where I can get COBOL or FORTRAN for it? If you need help getting it going, let me know. I can't part with the DOCs but, I'll be glad to look up any info for you. BTW: A few months ago, someone was looking for "Ball Bat" ribbons. I've got a few extras and might be willing to part with a couple (make an offer). See Ya, Steve Robertson From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Aug 19 17:25:54 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Digital kinda ethernet card?" (Aug 19, 12:10) References: Message-ID: <9908192325.ZM9378@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 19, 12:10, Mike Ford wrote: > Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? > I noticed my friends AlphaServer 2100 has the same card poking out the back > as one of the cards in my neatly sorted pile of old ethernet cards. The > card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat > LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? Almost certainly. The RJ45 will be 10baseT and the DA15 will be an AUI connector (sometimes called 10base5 because they'd often be connected by a drop cable to a thick wire transceiver, but in fact you could connect a 10base2 or 10baseT transceiver instead). There may be links to set which is the active port, though modern cards sometimes do that under software control, or autodetect a live link on the 10baseT when they power up. The AUI connector usually has a clip mechanism rather than screwposts, though. An ordinary miniature transceiver won't fit onto the screwposts. The only other cards you're likely to see that are similar, is a few old ISDN cards. They have an RJ45 for the S-bus (ISDN) connection, and one make did use DA15 for a serial port, but they always had one more modular jack (or 600-series jack) for a phone, too. They usually have a large (2-3" x 3-4") covered section with the telecomms section isolated inside it. Ethernet cards usually have a much smaller (1" square or so) monolithic voltage converter/isolator to generate the isolated 10V supply for the network driver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 17:13:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: imsal 2 In-Reply-To: <000a01beea7a$ca1472c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 19, 99 01:40:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5463 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990819/2bf057f6/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 14:13:03 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] In-Reply-To: References: <01BEEA3A.5EC2A590.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <199908192307.TAA13582@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:17:43 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Mike Ford > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: RE: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] > Are power supplies some big trouble spot lately? My impression is that they > have a similar failure rate to anything else in the box, and that both > premium and low cost replacements are easy to find and, well replace with. PSUs _and_ any cooling devices spun by fan are prime troublemakers. Problems shows up in data corruptions, complex software crashes when system overheats whole or locally. Weak capacitors cause reboots or PSU cut outs. I have personally seen chips die from bad cooling for any causes if ingored too long. CPU is chip btw. I _did_ blow a PSU byproduct of multiple cycling 10 sec on, 2 sec off, so on...then it died after few cycles. Analysis showed single chopper TO-220 transistor on thin sheet of steel heatsink run by 8 pin PWM kickstarted by a 1W resistor to it, 3 bladed fan, 2 piece axial diodes one end soldered into piece of strip for heatsink. That psu went into bin shortly after. PSUs based on '494 and lm339 ICs compled with decent components especially 105C capacitors, good heatsinks, enough filter networks and ball bearing fan in PSU case with proper sized vents did very well. And cost difference is minimal. Major problem that I wondered anyone haven't noticed is that consumers DO only look at features AND cost. Oh, also consumer only assumed that all computers is created equal on parts because decent computer for 1100 using fewer features, good all-round cpu and OS, one or 2 s/w OR 1000 one with weaker ill-balanced cpu, crappy parts, highly mis and boatloads of "freebie" software and a OS, they usually commonly picks the latter. Or don't think about it, just results. NOT! Resposiblity starts with rsseller educating the buyers and only sell good ones only. Many will come to senses after going one or two mistakes with crappy vendors and go over to good reseller. Good wholesaler does matter much too. We were blessed with one good one. And few good resellers. Those stubborn bargin buyers are usually falls into 2 classes, one who have too little knowlege and pick one by mistake, and one who have just enough knowledge to be dangerous and have a say in everything. Wizard From Tony.Eros at machm.org Thu Aug 19 14:15:28 1999 From: Tony.Eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:55 2005 Subject: Cool find References: <009701beea6f$91923460$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000001beea9d$d4fc9280$212e2818@newcas1.de.home.com> I snagged some cool lab robotics stuff recently. I picked up a Zymark EasyLab controller and a Zymate II robot. Has anyone ever used one of these? I skipped picking up a Tektronix printer, the kind that attached to one of their graphics terminals -- sort of wedge-shaped. I didn't note the model number. I could probably buy it for about $5 -- if anyone wants it, drop me a line and I'll pick it up. -- Tony From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 19 21:26:57 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <199908200226.WAA14423@world.std.com> Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your information with you. What you get there is not reliable. The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally advertised over the web. I don't recall whether there was memory, a keyboard, video card, or a mouse, but I was so overwhelmed, I didn't even think to look. The local discounter wants that much for just the processor IC! Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have to set the priorities, e.g. high quality quiet fan in your computer vs. $15 per unit in their pocket, have no trouble at all with their decision. That certainly accounts for the presence of such low quality in the average computer. The "real" electronics houses here in the US operate on the notion that they provide what you buy. If you buy fewer than 5k pieces per week, then it's probably more like you buy what they provide, but you get the picture. If, out of the vast number of computer buyers out there, 1% kept them long enough to have problems enough with the fan noise, life, or PSU that they replaced them, grumling loudly as they went, there would be high quality replacements available. Unfortunately, when your fan dies or begins to make lots of noise, that corporate repair/installation fellow comes around and you get a new computer. Not too many average users complain about this. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:55 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> > > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> > > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. >> > >> > You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ >> > electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit >> > PC power supplies ;-). >> >> Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my >> *computer shop* :>) > >Correct, I haven't... > >OK, some shops in the UK sell both computer parts (cases, motherboards, >PSUs, etc) and electronic components. In fact most of the component shops >also sell computer parts. > >But, by 'computer shop', I meant the sort of place that sells no-name (or >worse still non-standard brand-name) PCs, packages software, etc. The >sort of place that will try to sell you a new printer rather than a >ribbon for your old one. Those places never sell useful spares like fans. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 21:39:00 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsal 2 Message-ID: <000e01beeab5$3d68a180$0400c0a8@winbook> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:58 PM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >> to claim you have an ALTAIR computer running in your basement then what's >> down there had best be ALTAIR stuff, not just an ALTAIR CPU in a Morrow box >> with a CCS FDC and a COMPUPRO serial board. > >Of course in the 'real world' it was very common to find a mix of boards >in a particular box. > >> >> If you have an Integrand box, I guess you can call your computer an >> Integrand no matter what's in it, since they only made the boxes, right? >> >> I think that's the mentality that drives the eBay prices up. If you have a >> VERY pretty Daimler Benz hood ornament, with Chevrolet wheels, a Ford >> engine, a BMW emblem on the rear bonnet of a Corvair, with a Corvette >> steering wheel, what do you call your car (not that those parts would play >> together) ? For the collector, it's VERY important that all the parts fit, >> not just essentially, but exactly. That means that if IMSAI made one >> (whatever that might be), your system isn't complete without it. > >But most collectors only seem to care about the name on the front... > >Suppose you had an Altair with Altair CPU, RAM, PROM, serial I/O, disks, >etc. And a no-name S100 box with Compupro CPU, Vector Graphic memory, >Micromation disk, Tarbell tape, CASU serial, etc. > >Now put all the Altair cards into the no-name box. And the other cards in >the Altair box. > >Which do you think would fetch the higher price on E-bay? > I would be surprised if the higher bid didn't go for the Imsai box, rather than the original card set, but, if your card set happened to be spotted by a "collector" he'd undoubtedly bid however much it took to get the boards he was lacking, even if he had to buy your whole set. If that was $10k more than the box, well, it depends on things other than your preference and mine. > >> If you restore your '57 Chevy with parts carefully sought out at the >> junkyards within a 1000 mile radius of your home, and with "real" parts and >> real lead in the body work, and original upholstery, etc, it's not the same >> as the one built from whatever after-market parts you could find. It may >> look good, but it isn't "real" is it? > >One point here, though, is that users (who were most often hackers at >that time) did use other cards when the machine was 'new'. It's not like >taking said car and putting (somehow) a modern Ford engine in it. It's like >taking the car and fitting a standard (for the time) tune-up kit - >something that plenty of owners (presumably) did. > >I feel there is a place in a collection for both 'as the manufacturer >intended' and 'as the users generally used' machines. A lot of museums >ignore the latter category, though, which could lead to a mistaken >impression as to what really went on. > You're right about that, Tony, but it's a good idea to keep in mind, at least when dealing with Altair and IMSAI, that the Altair stuff is, for the most part, the worst kind of junk, always was and always will be, yet it was good enough to function, sorta, and only after you fixed it, and, being first to do that, it is the "original" while IMSAI stuff which was, from what I've seen, about as good as any you could get, though the style was definitely "early TTL" style, with one-shots, and enough rough edges, design-wise, to raise your eyebrows from time to time. The difference is easily summed up in that the IMSAI was designed by someone who know how to make a circuit that worked while the guys who designed the MITS stuff only knew how to make a circuit. > Dick > From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 18:06:07 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <000d01beeab5$3c7da540$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908200300.XAA22787@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:44:06 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > X-To: > Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even > though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as > mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. > They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like > CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your > information with you. What you get there is not reliable. Those "upgrades" and loose boards on display are generic type no different from no-brands except for branded ones upgrade boxes. > > The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly > that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on > without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. Not how I shop. I pick out a specific brand and few models then shop around with that limited specifics for good price and warrenty. Example Asus MEL-M, one shop has it for 150 CDN 1 yr. Other shop has it for few dollars less and 1 year manufacter plus 2yr extra. So on. Beauiful board and works well on linux and winblows 95 upgrade ver after patched the chipset driver into winblows. :-) I own 3 other boards by Asus. To others, sorry to hear about sucker problems. I think it's the wholesaler thing passing sick ones onto unsuspecting users. Happened on 2 occasions, once w/ asus from a little known vendor (sick parallel port), and once with tyan board from a vendor that poofed right afterwards who we contacted refused to resolve this problems. Their claims tested it it's fine! BULL! > I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found > a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) > enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally Snip! That barebone thing, I smell rat, avoid! > > Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for > one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes > obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or > about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been > kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have Bzzt! I have seen 2~4 generation upgrades done in same old cases so can't be stated simply. Some even started out as 386 box even smattering of XT or 286 vinage! All those boards that came out of them are perfectly functional and resold on cosignment as used parts for other users on very small budget to upgrade their even older machines. Average age for a case after 4th upgrade is around 6 years old. I have the cute 286 case holding 16X cdrom, Pentium 100, 'T2P4 etc etc and it still bears the label '286' for fun to pick on people who saw that case 'running' winblows. :-) Took me long time to find that style I liked. Wizard. > Dick From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Aug 19 22:02:06 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: DEC Pro Documentation available Message-ID: <37BCC52E.B65F34B8@halcyon.com> I have extra copies of the following available. These are all probably for a Pro 350, if there is any machine dependency, and are all circa version 2.0 of P/OS. The software for the last version (3.2) is available at ftp.update.uu.se. Hard Disk System For Beginners User's Guide User's Guide Supplement Command Language User's Guide PRO/Sight User's Guide A few miscellaneous "Installation Manuals" for options. If any is interested, let me know. I'll send these to anyone who'll pay postage plus a small packaging fee, total to be determined, but probably not more than $10. Dave From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 19 22:31:03 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 (but way OT) Message-ID: <18f977a3.24ee25f7@aol.com> In a message dated 08/19/1999 5:57:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > But, by 'computer shop', I meant the sort of place that sells no-name PCs We put the internationally awe-inspiring name ACME on ours ;>) > The sort of place that will try to sell you a new printer rather than a > ribbon for your old one. Those places never sell useful spares like fans. I think I know the place you're referring to -- "You're in luck cause we only have one of these babies left . . . it was the floor model . . . my boss told me to find it a good home . . . somebody like you . . . can have it for $$$" Fortunately we have a great relationship with one of these establishments -- if they can't shake all the money out of someone by selling them a new box, they send them to us to repair their old unit. They also don't sell fans, odd cables, etc., but we do, and we sell stuff out of our junk bin every day from their referrals. I guess they deserve their place in the food chain too. Anyway thanks for the clarification and I'm glad to know you don't paint us all with the same brush ;>) Glen Goodwin ACME Enterprises 0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 22:28:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <001501beeabc$090498c0$0400c0a8@winbook> -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:58 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:44:06 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: > >> Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even >> though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as >> mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. >> They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like >> CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your >> information with you. What you get there is not reliable. > >Those "upgrades" and loose boards on display are generic type no >different from no-brands except for branded ones upgrade boxes. > >> >> The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly >> that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on >> without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. > >Not how I shop. I pick out a specific brand and few models then shop >around with that limited specifics for good price and warrenty. >Example Asus MEL-M, one shop has it for 150 CDN 1 yr. Other shop >has it for few dollars less and 1 year manufacter plus 2yr extra. >So on. Beauiful board and works well on linux and winblows 95 upgrade >ver after patched the chipset driver into winblows. :-) I own 3 >other boards by Asus. To others, sorry to hear about sucker >problems. I think it's the wholesaler thing passing sick ones onto >unsuspecting users. Happened on 2 occasions, once w/ asus from a >little known vendor (sick parallel port), and once with tyan board >from a vendor that poofed right afterwards who we contacted refused >to resolve this problems. Their claims tested it it's fine! BULL! > I have a particular problem with ASUS, dating back to their '486 days which removed them forever from my list. Whats more, their motherboards without processor cost more than the ones I have used for some time with. I've never seen anyone willing and able (some are willing, but not many) to enforce the warranty. > >> I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found >> a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) >> enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally >Snip! > >That barebone thing, I smell rat, avoid! > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, keyboards, etc, are still in place. > >> Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for >> one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes >> obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or >> about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been >> kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have > >Bzzt! I have seen 2~4 generation upgrades done in same old cases >so can't be stated simply. Some even started out as 386 box even >smattering of XT or 286 vinage! All those boards that came out of >them are perfectly functional and resold on cosignment as used parts >for other users on very small budget to upgrade their even older >machines. Average age for a case after 4th upgrade is around 6 years >old. > People in an office don't want the same old PC (remember we're looking at the outside) they've had for more than a year. > >I have the cute 286 case holding 16X cdrom, Pentium 100, 'T2P4 etc >etc and it still bears the label '286' for fun to pick on people who >saw that case 'running' winblows. :-) Took me long time to find >that style I liked. > >Wizard. > >> Dick > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 19 22:33:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <002001beeabc$c8dc8900$0400c0a8@winbook> Nope, what I'm referring to is the retail outlet of a "real" electronics supplier, e.g. Newark, etc. I haven't bought components from RS since the late '70's when we bought some regulators, I think there were several hundred because they were the only ones who could ship them promptly. We found after testing about a hundred, that none of the ones we tested were in tolerance. I have bought nibblers, a soldering iron, a neat little wirewrap tool for the briefcase (discontinued because it was too good) and a solder-sucker from RS since then, notice I remember EVERY item. Not one component is on the list. I'd almost wager that none of their 5% resistors fall within 5%. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:56 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> >> The joke is on the one who tries to buy from a "real" elelctronics shop, >> where 1/4-watt resistors cost upwards of a buck . . . and the first item on >> the list costs $100 because that's their minimum. > >That sounds like RatShack, not an electronics shop :-). Over here, >resistors cost 3p (say 5 cents) each in 10-off quantities (0.6W, 1%). > >The only time I've payed nearly a pound for a resistor is when it was >either precision (0.1% ones are a lot more expensive) or high power (50W >metal-cased ones, for example). > >-tony > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 19 23:02:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: RT-11 and TCP/IP Message-ID: OK, since I'm trying to cover all bases trying to find an answer I guess I'd best send a message to the list. I'm trying to install Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP package on a mutant PDP-11/73 with a DEQNA ethernet controller (though have tried a DELQA). However, I seem to be stuck, and I can't figure out what the error code I'm getting is. Depending on how I start it, I get one of the following two error codes: Board initialization failed!. Error code=3 netinit() failed Board initialization failed!. Error code=11 netinit() failed Are the error codes documented anywhere? I've tried going through some of the source without any luck. I'm at a loss here as I know for a fact that the DEQNA, transceiver and network cableing are all good. Any help/suggestions would be much appreciated. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 19 23:09:28 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Cool find In-Reply-To: <000001beea9d$d4fc9280$212e2818@newcas1.de.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Tony Eros wrote: > I snagged some cool lab robotics stuff recently. I picked up a Zymark > EasyLab controller and a Zymate II robot. Has anyone ever used one of > these? > > I skipped picking up a Tektronix printer, the kind that attached to one of > their graphics terminals -- sort of wedge-shaped. I didn't note the model > number. I could probably buy it for about $5 -- if anyone wants it, drop me > a line and I'll pick it up. Tony, if the graphics terminals were the storage tube type, the 'printer' was likely a Hard Copy Unit - 4631 or near relative - that uses the pricey dry silver paper and is the same or similar to the one used with the 4051. - don From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Aug 19 23:12:24 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <63fb9243.24ee2fa8@aol.com> In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, > keyboards, etc, are still in place. You were very lucky. What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy from him or her: "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the problem." "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're properly installed." "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From donm at cts.com Thu Aug 19 23:28:28 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Interesting find -> Honeywell-Bull AP/M In-Reply-To: <01be444d$099ce3c0$f19ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: > Does anyone have any sort of info on this thing? I just picked one up at a > garage sale for $1. The guy I bought it from had no info about it. He said > it was in the basement of his house when he bought the house... > > The case is about 6" high by 15" wide. It has a 1.2 MB 5.25" floppy and a > ST-225 HD in it. It has a 286-10 CPU in it, but when "turbo" (it's software > controlled - "boost.exe" makes the computer beep then lights a green LED on > the front)is on, it clocks at 13.5 MHz (QADiagnostics). There is a 3.5" bay > that's the same height as a 5.25" floppy (anyone have a drive that'll fit in > here?), and the three LED's (green, red, green - power, HD, turbo) aren't > labeled. The cover over the HD bay is odd, too. It's frosted. Whenever > the computer's on, the green HD light can be seen through it, sort of like > the old Olivetti had. > > The cards that it has are a standard MFM controller (although in a > non-standard place - it's set back About 1" from the back of the case, and > about 1" to the right of the card cage, and the ''tail" on the card's > mounting bracket goes through a hole in the motherboard)/ There's also a > standard CGA/composite video card, and an ARCnet LANcard. It has a BNC coax > connector on it. > > As my luck would have it, though the "arcnet" directory was empty. All the > directories were empty but the DOS directory, and they all appear to have > hidden files, because I can't remove them. Why don't you use UNDELETE or Norton and see if you can recover some files in the ARCNET directory and/or others. If UNDELETE is not in the DOS directory, I'd bring Norton to it on a floppy rather than write it to the disk. - don > The case is also made from a surprisingly heavy gauge of steel. All the > metal is about 1/32" thick, and it weighs about as much as a 5170 AT. > > Anyone have any info on this? what it was mainly used for? Maybe a > keyboard to match? :) > > ThAnX, > ///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 858-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Aug 20 00:00:12 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? In-Reply-To: References: <199908182252.SAA12418@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990819220012.0098e270@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:10 19-08-1999 -0800, you wrote: >card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat >LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? Yeppers. I don't recall the designation though. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Aug 19 20:19:02 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <63fb9243.24ee2fa8@aol.com> Message-ID: <199908200513.BAA06049@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:12:24 EDT > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Glenatacme@aol.com > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: imsai 2 > In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > edick@idcomm.com writes: > > > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last > > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The > > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, > > keyboards, etc, are still in place. > > You were very lucky. Did number of parts belly up or get troublemaker big time and you had to make lot of runs to that law business? True to every situation that we saw or heard about businesses and buyers who dealt with a untruthworthy resellers / wholesalers. When that happens and that place will tell themselves "We had that so much troubles, that we'll blacklist that shop that barebones came from there and buy everywhere else." And time goes by and that shop finally finds out why you got blacklisted by rumor, from there people spreads the reputation around. Reason is that shop didn't act in time when problems crops up and move on to truthworthy sources for computer stuff. Some worst ones will "swap" one for another equally bad parts, some to be praised did something right and paid terrible price to fix the troubles. > What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems > together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it > home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system > it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy > from him or her: > > "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." > > "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the > problem." > > "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're > properly installed." > > "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in > the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is > bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." > > This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to > modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming > problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. Exactly what happened with that tyan board flakiness and Asus board parallel thing from these worthless resellers. They wanted the money and gave the buyer the old bricks. Saw remarked CPUs for real with my eyes. Looks like real thing but serial #'s didn't jibe with original cpu maker's records with this actual markings. That was from shop A. Tipoff: thickness when mounting heatsink to it. This story; here is it and this is true story with all identifiers mangled. A instutition with very limited $ bought a machine from a Shop A loaded with junk and old parts as new computer (major illegal). Utterly unreliable and parts is of clones of clones of mystious origin type like that russian wooden dolls. That machine came in with unhappy instutition's owner to trustworthy Shop B. Shop B smelled rat then made few calls around to major makers like AMI bios to verify key items etc and police came in to pick up that bits. Shop B footed the cost and trouble to rebuild a good machine to even unhappy instutition owner who lost $ on that junk who wished they didn't blown their savings on. Hope anyone don't get caught in between like this especially to any resellers and owners. One other shady shop was ground into dirt and new management but the sigma still from that past still lingers even that reformed shop did ok years later. > > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 Wizard From a2k at one.net Fri Aug 20 00:24:14 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53D2F@MAIL10> Message-ID: > > I've gotten pliers flung across the room; screwdrivers welded. Not > to mention that uncomfortable tingling feeling in my arm :-). > > Rich Oh come on, that tingling is fun! When I was 12 or so I took two 6 volt batteries and connected them in series with a switch and two relays in parallel. Everybody in the school loved to touch the contacts on the switch while somebody kept pressing it... oh well ;) Of course, that would only be about 4 years ago.. yeah, we're all still sick kids ;) Kevin From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Aug 19 23:44:23 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] In-Reply-To: <199908192307.TAA13582@admin.cgocable.net> References: <01BEEA3A.5EC2A590.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: >Major problem that I wondered anyone haven't noticed is that >consumers DO only look at features AND cost. Oh, also consumer only >assumed that all computers is created equal on parts because decent I have one primary question when I buy a system, will the seller take care of any problems I have for how long? The pair of Motorola Starmaxes (n) (mac clones for the pc deprived) I own have 5 year warranties. Unfortunately Motorola would love to get out of the responsibility now they can't sell anymore, but that only drops the service down to B+ PC quality. The hardware business is headed down a rat hole anyway, why worry about the psu. From sheehan at switchboardmail.com Fri Aug 20 04:39:43 1999 From: sheehan at switchboardmail.com (Bill Sheehan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Osborne History Message-ID: Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? Thanks! -- Bill Sheehan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 20 05:09:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Osborne History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Bill Sheehan wrote: > Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company > ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around > here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer > Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. > > Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. > The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly > labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. > > Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? I think they actually lasted until about 1986. Their last ditch effort was the Osborne III, which was simply a re-branded Morrow Pivot Portable (aka the Zenith Z-{somesuchmodel}). Surprised me too. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Aug 20 05:16:16 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... Message-ID: <802567D3.00383E34.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Chris, Joe and Steve between them managed to say: >> > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to >> >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. >> >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the >> >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? [...] > There seem to be a BUNCH of variants of the 536X systems so it's hard to > predict what's gonna be inside. I think mine is an early example because it > will only support drives up to 60MB each. Currently, it has a 60MB and a > 30MB drive installed. I think some of the later models had drives in the > 1GB range but, I'm not positive of that. 5360 is the physically biggest system/36 - the size of a system/34 (5340). My experience is more with system/34 than system/36, but 60MB per drive sounds even lower than we had on our s/34 - must be a very early s/36 To return to Chris's question, I seem to recall some information appearing on the screen during boot. I think the terminal must be set to address 0 (or possibly 1 if 0 isn't valid) and stuck on the lowest-numbered twinax chain. It then will automatically be the console, and will display all this junk. FWIW our system/34 had 224K bytes of RAM of which one 2K block had died. Of disk space I think it had 256MB, but I can't remember if this was four drives or six. Big things with multiple platters, anyway. Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at once... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 20 05:21:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... In-Reply-To: <802567D3.00383E34.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the > nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at > once... So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy drive? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 20 05:31:15 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Osborne History Message-ID: <001001beeaf7$221e8600$473dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I don't know the exact connection, but there was an Osborne company with the same name and logo in Australia till recently. They seemed to have appeared about 1988 and were "rescued" and renamed by Gateway a few years back. I suspect it was just a case of the name and logo of the original company being sold. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 20 August 1999 20:10 Subject: Re: Osborne History >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Bill Sheehan wrote: > >> Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company >> ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around >> here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer >> Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. >> >> Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. >> The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly >> labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. >> >> Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? > >I think they actually lasted until about 1986. Their last ditch effort >was the Osborne III, which was simply a re-branded Morrow Pivot Portable >(aka the Zenith Z-{somesuchmodel}). > >Surprised me too. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Aug 20 06:22:41 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... Message-ID: <802567D3.003F0EDD.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the >> nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at >> once... > > So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds > about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy > drive? Easy. You put the whole cartridge in. The drive takes two cartridges and three loose disks. I seem to recall that the OS accepted designations for either cartridge, both cartridges, any single disk, or all three single disks, and there may have been a way of specifying a single disk within a cartridge (I can look this up at home). In all cases except a single disk specified, when the machine got to the end of a disk, it would spit the disk back out into the cartridge (or disk slot), move the disk carriage up one space, and suck another disk into its innards to read or write it. A sort of jukebox mechanism, I suppose. I also recall it was pretty speedy, something like 4 cylinders a second, 20 seconds to read or write a whole diskette. Philip. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Aug 20 09:09:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <199908181917.MAA29853@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <199908201210.OAA16540@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have > > > to kill you ;-) > > Firmware? > Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is > plugged in. Well, I own a removable harddisk (plugged in) - I can grap it and remove it - so Win98 is firmware ? As we might see, the terms are not that fixed as we would loke it (also a reason why I hate all this denglish tems - already fuzy terms from a foreign language used without knowledge of their orgin nor any concept for genuine meaning :( ). Gruss H. -- Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist. From ebrens at dds.nl Fri Aug 20 09:28:30 1999 From: ebrens at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: M7865 question. Message-ID: Hello, It reads 'Unibus 2 word out' on the back, and the DEC module field guide doesn't provide with additional information. What is it used for ? thanks, Erikb. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 20 08:20:36 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: M7865 question. Message-ID: <990820092036.2020076b@trailing-edge.com> >It reads 'Unibus 2 word out' on the back, and the DEC module field guide >doesn't provide with additional information. > >What is it used for ? It's a DR11-M, basically a 32-bit-wide parallel output port. It's complement is the DR11-L, a 32-bit-wide parallel input port. Compare these with the rest of the DR11-* series, which are generally both input *and* output. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Aug 20 08:26:37 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: About to acquire an IBM 5360... Message-ID: <01BEEAEE.1AB702B0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Friday, August 20, 1999 7:23 AM, Philip.Belben@pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] wrote: > > > >> Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the > >> nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at > >> once... > > > > So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds > > about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy > > drive? > > > Easy. You put the whole cartridge in. The drive takes two cartridges and three > loose disks. I seem to recall that the OS accepted designations for either > cartridge, both cartridges, any single disk, or all three single disks, and > there may have been a way of specifying a single disk within a cartridge (I can > look this up at home). > I don't remember the designations but, the larger (washing machine size) machines had the multidisk floppy drives. According to the documentation, you can specify a particular floppy in the carosel. Although, I don't recall the exact syntax. My system is the size of a 2-drawer file cabinet and weighs about 150 lbs (70KG for the rest of the world). Unfortunately, it does not have casters making it a PITA to move. It has a single 8" floppy that holds around 1MB of data. The drive seems pretty fast in relation to the rest of the machine. There are four twinax and four DB25 connectors on the rear. I have the console and printer hooked up to the first twinax connector and it works just fine. I got a modem and cables with the system but, haven't hooked it up. The cable has a DB25 connector so, it obviously plugs into one of the other ports. Don't know for sure but, I'm assuming they are normal RS232 connections? IMHO, this is one ugly OS! Later, Steve Robertson - From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 20 09:19:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <003901beeb17$15e42140$0400c0a8@winbook> Boy! I guess I WAS lucky. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:13 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >edick@idcomm.com writes: > >> ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last >> time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The >> motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, >> keyboards, etc, are still in place. > >You were very lucky. > >What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems >together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it >home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system >it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >from him or her: > >"The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." > >"Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the >problem." > >"But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're >properly installed." > >"Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in >the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is >bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." > >This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to >modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming >problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 20 09:36:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 Message-ID: <004401beeb19$7b4ce7e0$0400c0a8@winbook> As was stated earlier, I must have been really lucky, because I go down to the lawfirm and upgrade their computers, usually every 18 months or so, usually in lots of 50. I've had disk drive problems, but those went away when WD stopped shipping their 31200 drives. Of the 18 I had there, after a year, the oldest had been replaced 4 times under warranty and the newest was on its 8th incarnation. That wasn't part of the "bare-bones" package. It was my first, and last, experience with LAN wiring, and I became pretty expert in maintaing Netware servers and installing Windows95. Their power supplies have failed at a less-than average rate, and the only problems have been with the monitors, which I didn't provide, though that's also been pretty minor. I don't normally do this sort of thing, but my lawyer, like other folks, knew I work in the computer-related electronics side of things, and was frustrated with his luck with the guys who specialize in outfitting businesses. Now that my legal problems have gone away, and they don't very badly want to pay my hourly rate, someone else is doing that stuff for them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:11 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:12:24 EDT >> Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> From: Glenatacme@aol.com >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 > >> In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> edick@idcomm.com writes: >> >> > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last >> > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The >> > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, >> > keyboards, etc, are still in place. >> >> You were very lucky. > >Did number of parts belly up or get troublemaker big time and you had >to make lot of runs to that law business? > >True to every situation that we saw or heard about businesses and >buyers who dealt with a untruthworthy resellers / wholesalers. When >that happens and that place will tell themselves "We had that so much >troubles, that we'll blacklist that shop that barebones came from >there and buy everywhere else." And time goes by and that shop >finally finds out why you got blacklisted by rumor, from there people >spreads the reputation around. Reason is that shop didn't act in time >when problems crops up and move on to truthworthy sources for >computer stuff. Some worst ones will "swap" one for another equally >bad parts, some to be praised did something right and paid terrible >price to fix the troubles. > >> What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems >> together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it >> home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system >> it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >> from him or her: >> >> "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." >> >> "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the >> problem." >> >> "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're >> properly installed." >> >> "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in >> the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is >> bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." >> >> This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to >> modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming >> problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. > >Exactly what happened with that tyan board flakiness and Asus >board parallel thing from these worthless resellers. They wanted the >money and gave the buyer the old bricks. > >Saw remarked CPUs for real >with my eyes. Looks like real thing but serial #'s didn't jibe with >original cpu maker's records with this actual markings. That was >from shop A. Tipoff: thickness when mounting heatsink to it. > >This story; here is it and this is true story with all identifiers >mangled. A instutition with very limited $ bought a machine from a >Shop A loaded with junk and old parts as new computer (major >illegal). Utterly unreliable and parts is of clones of clones >of mystious origin type like that russian wooden dolls. That machine >came in with unhappy instutition's owner to trustworthy Shop B. >Shop B smelled rat then made few calls around to major makers like >AMI bios to verify key items etc and police came in to pick up that >bits. Shop B footed the cost and trouble to rebuild a good machine >to even unhappy instutition owner who lost $ on that junk who wished >they didn't blown their savings on. > >Hope anyone don't get caught in between like this especially to any >resellers and owners. One other shady shop was ground into dirt and >new management but the sigma still from that past still lingers even >that reformed shop did ok years later. > >> >> Glen Goodwin >> 0/0 > >Wizard From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Aug 20 10:12:02 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Still more PBX stuff. Message-ID: <13476989070.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I dragged some extensions out and plugged into it, they work fine. I can bounce inside calls around pretty easily. The extensions appear to have been numbered in an arbitrary order though. I'm gonna read the DLP books and see if I can change that without the MAAP box. Also, as for the 6 loops on the console - That's 6 lines for the console itself. The console can have 6 conversations going on it at the same time. The PBX seems to be able to switch as many calls as you have outside lines for. It does use relays, if I opened the front cover and dialed I could hear it click as it completed the call. I also let it sit and run for about 5 hours while we played a card game upstairs and it worked fine after running awhile. (But after about 10 minutes I did get a minor warning because the CO wasn't talking to me, which makes sense...) The next fun things to do are reprogramming the system to some sane values AFA line numbering and the outgoing lines, then finding a way to back up the OS tape, and the trying to connect it to the world. ------- From ss at allegro.com Fri Aug 20 12:03:43 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908201703.KAA11481@bart.allegro.com> My IBM 5110 (BASIC only) s/n is 26457 (no date obvious). From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 20 12:04:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <005101beeb2e$18fcdb80$0400c0a8@winbook> RIGHT! You have removable hard drives, as I do, and probably have non-removable PROMs (FLASH-types) as well. Now, what to we call this stuff? Back to my original comment about semantics, other parts of the electronics industry and other industries, are calling the content of CD's and tapes "software" as more and more similarity becomes apparent to the public. Additionally, the legal system has begun to see them in the same way. The devices which define our computers are becoming defined more and more by what we used to call software, though now perhaps we should call it firmware, and yet the simple boundaries I once understood to support these definitions now have become blurred by the movement of what used to be firmware into volatile media and of what used to be "software" into non-volatile media, e.g. the PCMCIA Flash-disks I mentioned. I don't think we'll have to wait long for a situation to arise, in which one links to a site on the web, is fed a download of configuration data which defines how the system on which one's running is to be defined, then reads the code which will be executed on the specifically configured "hardware" environment. Instead of the hardware defining how the software must be configured, the software will define the way in which the hardware addresses its requirements. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 6:08 AM Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >> > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> > > to kill you ;-) >> > Firmware? >> Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >> plugged in. > >Well, I own a removable harddisk (plugged in) - >I can grap it and remove it - >so Win98 is firmware ? > >As we might see, the terms are not that fixed as >we would loke it (also a reason why I hate all >this denglish tems - already fuzy terms from a >foreign language used without knowledge of their >orgin nor any concept for genuine meaning :( ). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 20 12:13:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Still more PBX stuff. In-Reply-To: <13476989070.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > see if I can change that without the MAAP box. Also, as for the 6 > loops on the console - That's 6 lines for the console itself. The > console can have 6 conversations going on it at the same time. The Ah, ok. Makes sense. > PBX seems to be able to switch as many calls as you have outside lines > for. It does use relays, if I opened the front cover and dialed I > could hear it click as it completed the call. That's typical on calls to outbound trunks, but it's clicking on station to station calls (i.e. internal)? > I also let it sit and run for about 5 hours while we played a card > game upstairs and it worked fine after running awhile. (But after > about 10 minutes I did get a minor warning because the CO wasn't > talking to me, which makes sense...) What do you mean the "CO wasn't talking" to you? I'll translate this to mean the system sensed that it didn't have dialtone or line voltage on the trunks that are programmed currently. > The next fun things to do are reprogramming the system to some sane > values AFA line numbering and the outgoing lines, then finding a way > to back up the OS tape, and the trying to connect it to the world. How did you find out the extension numbers, and what are they? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 20 13:46:13 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <005101beeb2e$18fcdb80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990820134613.010bb7a0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:04 AM 8/20/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >I don't think we'll have to wait long for a situation to arise, in which one >links to a site on the web, is fed a download of configuration data which >defines how the system on which one's running is to be defined, then reads >the code which will be executed on the specifically configured "hardware" >environment. Instead of the hardware defining how the software must be >configured, the software will define the way in which the hardware addresses >its requirements. It's already here. The Transmeta CPU could work that way. Field-programmable gate arrays (Xilinx chips) have existed for many years, so who knows how they're being used. For example, the circa 1992 Video Toaster for the Amiga relied heavily on these chips to perform real-time video manipulations. Load a new transition, reprogram the array. - John From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 20 14:24:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) Message-ID: <000a01beeb41$95dad220$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, we're not quite there yet, though that fellow (what's his name . . . ), the CEO of Oracle, is promoting a situation in which you'd not buy software at all but would simply search for what you wanted, buy it "by the drink" over the net, and run it once, repeating the process, and paying for it each time you use it. I certainly hope that such a scenario is not where we're headed. The technology has been in front of us for some time, and what's prevented this so far is the FPGA vendors' tight hold on how to configure their products. Once that cat's out of the bag, someone will surely try this, since he can then incorporate his configuration generator into his software hierarchy. That will certainly put an end to the question of which CPU runs which application the best, since the application will then be integrated with the configuration of hardware which suits it the best. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >At 11:04 AM 8/20/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>I don't think we'll have to wait long for a situation to arise, in which one >>links to a site on the web, is fed a download of configuration data which >>defines how the system on which one's running is to be defined, then reads >>the code which will be executed on the specifically configured "hardware" >>environment. Instead of the hardware defining how the software must be >>configured, the software will define the way in which the hardware addresses >>its requirements. > >It's already here. The Transmeta CPU could work that way. >Field-programmable gate arrays (Xilinx chips) have existed for >many years, so who knows how they're being used. > >For example, the circa 1992 Video Toaster for the Amiga relied >heavily on these chips to perform real-time video manipulations. >Load a new transition, reprogram the array. > >- John > From aknight at mindspring.com Fri Aug 20 14:25:58 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990819083525.3c5f59f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990820152558.007a5e30@mindspring.com> Hi, I stumbled across the following link on the zdnet web site about a lawyer with a MITS Altair 8800b who was awarded Dell's prize in a contest for the "oldest working PC" : http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2317770,00.html The computer is going to a museum, and Dell gave him a new computer. There's also a message board attached to the article, and the first entry is from another lawyer who said that he had had a HP9830 that he had used for legal stuff before the Altair came out (well, he didn't name the 9830 specifically, but it couldn't have been anything else from HP in 1972). I thought some of ya'll might be interested ... Don't flame me, flame Dell & zdnet ;-) ;-) ;-) Regards, Alex Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Aug 20 14:36:33 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Still more PBX stuff. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13477037225.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Clicking on station to station calls?] No, I don't think it did, but I'm pretty sure it clicked once when I called the console. And dialing 9 made it click a couple times. [CO wasn't talking to me?] Not sure how it determined it, but it sensed the CO wasn't there. (Minor Network Alarm is what the panel indicated.) Probably what you said. [How did I find extension numbers?] The console seems to have an internal-only Caller ID, because when I called the console, there was a small LED display that lit up with the extension number. I know it's the extension number because if I dial it at a dial tone, it rings the extension I dialed. And now for the next screw: I need the MAAP device. Almost all of the administration-type functions need it. I'm going to go back to the site and see if I can find it, but I'm pretty sure I got everything that was there. It does look (from the diagrams in the schematics book) like the little terminals the DEC F-S people had (the one pictured in the RA81 manual, at least), but I can't find a pinout for the connector for it. The connector for the MAAP is on the breaker panel - Maybe if I see how many lines are in the back of it... Maybe if I'm really lucky it's just a serial device! ------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 20 14:54:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Still more PBX stuff. In-Reply-To: <13477037225.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > No, I don't think it did, but I'm pretty sure it clicked once when I called > the console. And dialing 9 made it click a couple times. That's normal for outbound calls. That's the relay going "off-hook" on the trunk side. > Not sure how it determined it, but it sensed the CO wasn't there. > (Minor Network Alarm is what the panel indicated.) Probably what > you said. Well, generally a minor alarm on a switch can mean a lot of different things. How do you know for sure it is because you don't have any trunks connected to it? Sometimes a minor alarm is triggered by default after a power fail (or any time the power is removed). The switch could be capable of detecting the presence or absence of live trunks on the ports where it's programmed to have trunks. It simply tries to sense any current on those ports. > The console seems to have an internal-only Caller ID, because when I > called the console, there was a small LED display that lit up with the > extension number. I know it's the extension number because if I dial > it at a dial tone, it rings the extension I dialed. Aha. That makes sense. > And now for the next screw: I need the MAAP device. Almost all of the > administration-type functions need it. I'm going to go back to the > site and see if I can find it, but I'm pretty sure I got everything > that was there. It does look (from the diagrams in the schematics > book) like the little terminals the DEC F-S people had (the one > pictured in the RA81 manual, at least), but I can't find a pinout for > the connector for it. The connector for the MAAP is on the breaker > panel - Maybe if I see how many lines are in the back of it... Maybe > if I'm really lucky it's just a serial device! ------- Probably. You might want to try fishing for clues on comp.dcom.telecom and comp.dcom.telecom.tech. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Aug 20 18:57:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet Message-ID: <199908202357.TAA13944@world.std.com> <[CO wasn't talking to me?] < These are G727A's. ANybody need some? Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 19:38:12 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Whats this?? Message-ID: <19990820.194026.235.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> ANybody know what a Xeros X967 or X968 is? Is it historically important? ANybody need parts? It seems to be an 8085 based machine, but it's hard to tell for sure, with all of the rust. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 19:36:18 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: Parting out VAX 11/750 Message-ID: <19990820.194026.235.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: There's a VAX 11/750 that will soon be parted out. If there are any tid-bits of this thing you want, please LMK via private e-mail. (Don't ask for the whole thing, it's the size of a small refrigerator, and weighs just as much). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 19:33:15 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: To: Data General Fiends Message-ID: <19990820.194026.235.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I spotted some 8" floppy drives that may have been used with the ECLIPSE. If anyone is interested in these, please contact me via private E-Mail. They are big drive units, two drives in the box, painted this 'airforce' blue color, with these funny 'doors' on them. The serial plates say they're model AF6030. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From therunk17 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 20 19:48:28 1999 From: therunk17 at earthlink.net (Ronald Fraser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 Message-ID: <199908210047.RAA24752@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I just got the message, are they still available? If so, I'm interested and how big are the units? Ron ---------- >From: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: FW: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 10:31 AM > > Fellow here has some good VAXen stuff pretty cheap. Contact directly > if you're interested. > > -=-=- -=-=- > > On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: > >>>From: wetboy >>>Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >>>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>>User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) >>>Lines: 29 >>>Message-ID: >>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT >>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.233.85.1 >>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net >>>X-Trace: news.shore.net 934282930 192.233.85.1 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT) >>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT >>>Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) >>>Path: > news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.m axwell.sy > r.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail >>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:785 >>> >>>MicroVax II: >>> >>> BA123 case >>> RD53 >>> 9 MB ram >>> TK50 >>> VMS 5.3 >>> >>>MicroVax 2000: >>> >>> RD32 >>> 6 MB ram (IIRC) >>> VMS 4.5B >>> >>> >>>VT320, LA75 >>> >>>Most of VMS 5.0 "grey wall" (some >>>notebooks later than 5.0). >>> >>> >>>All for $50.00 >>> >>>Pick up near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. >>> >>>E-mail me if you are interested. >>> >>> >>>-- Wetboy > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com > Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com > "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, > event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define > any of them..." > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 20 19:57:41 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 References: <199908210047.RAA24752@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <99082020580604.15614@phaduka.neurotica.com> Nope, I got 'em...sorry... -Dave McGuire On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Ronald Fraser wrote: >I just got the message, are they still available? If so, I'm interested and >how big are the units? >Ron > >---------- >>From: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) >>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >>Subject: FW: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >>Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 10:31 AM >> > >> Fellow here has some good VAXen stuff pretty cheap. Contact directly >> if you're interested. >> >> -=-=- -=-=- >> >> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >> >>>>From: wetboy >>>>Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >>>>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>>>User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) >>>>Lines: 29 >>>>Message-ID: >>>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT >>>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.233.85.1 >>>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net >>>>X-Trace: news.shore.net 934282930 192.233.85.1 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 >EDT) >>>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT >>>>Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) >>>>Path: >> >news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.m >axwell.sy >> r.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail >>>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:785 >>>> >>>>MicroVax II: >>>> >>>> BA123 case >>>> RD53 >>>> 9 MB ram >>>> TK50 >>>> VMS 5.3 >>>> >>>>MicroVax 2000: >>>> >>>> RD32 >>>> 6 MB ram (IIRC) >>>> VMS 4.5B >>>> >>>> >>>>VT320, LA75 >>>> >>>>Most of VMS 5.0 "grey wall" (some >>>>notebooks later than 5.0). >>>> >>>> >>>>All for $50.00 >>>> >>>>Pick up near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. >>>> >>>>E-mail me if you are interested. >>>> >>>> >>>>-- Wetboy >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >> Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >> Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >> "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an >object, >> event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define >> any of them..." >> >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:01:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <000d01beeab5$3c7da540$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 19, 99 05:44:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/016177ea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:15:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:56 2005 Subject: imsal 2 In-Reply-To: <000e01beeab5$3d68a180$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 19, 99 08:39:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3657 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/06beef30/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:24:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: imsai 2 (but way OT) In-Reply-To: <18f977a3.24ee25f7@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Aug 19, 99 11:31:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/4390388a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:29:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <002001beeabc$c8dc8900$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 19, 99 09:33:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/6e7b4061/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:35:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: M7865 question. In-Reply-To: from "Erik Brens" at Aug 20, 99 02:28:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/247faa8b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:41:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990820152558.007a5e30@mindspring.com> from "Alex Knight" at Aug 20, 99 03:25:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1391 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/1284affc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 17:50:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) In-Reply-To: <000a01beeb41$95dad220$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 20, 99 01:24:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/50d04fe8/attachment.ksh From rcini at msn.com Fri Aug 20 19:54:10 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 Message-ID: <01bd01beeb76$df3ae600$e992fea9@office1> On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:29:34 -0500, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last {snip} >>Not to mention recent E-Bay prices. Amen to that. The recent prices are certainly an incentive for one to try his hand again. > And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? > Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. >FP=$100. Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was >expecting a lower number. >>I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he >>figured that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob >>appeal. As Tim mentioned, my PS number is low. I was figuring on the included ATX PeeCee power supply. I'd bet the transformer alone in the old IMSAIs was *at least* the $50. I also agree with the snob appeal, although I don't know if it would be the "hand-made" part, or alternatively, about "it was made by the same guy who made the old ones." > I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only > have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target > audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level > and interest to assemble one myself. >>Well that was the whole point, wasn't it, eh? You built it yourself >>because you a) Had more time than money or b) That's the only way >>you could get it. I dunno about you, but I certainly fell into the >>'more time than money' category (and *still* couldn't afford it). >> >>I believe his target audience has 'more money than {time | brains}'. >>I dunno Rich, I always figured you as a pretty smart guy. Maybe >>on a budget, too. Would be better just to buy the 'unique' bits, >>and piece one together yourself (utilizing the PSU of your choice). Thanks for the compliment :-) I wasn't focused on computers when the original IMSAI was available. I was about , dunno, maybe 11. So, I certainly didn't have the money. I did have time, though. Now, I have much less time and more money, but I'd still prefer to build my own. $$$ are always a concern, but the deal with my wife is what ever I make from freelance computer writing, I can use for my hobby. Sweet deal, huh?? A custom PS would be nice (I've always liked building power supplies). I wouldn't be opposed to piecing a system together myself, but by the time you piece together the HTF parts (such as the FP, the backplane, and the case), you have 70% of the unit. I think that an unassembled kit for $599 would be OK. >>BTW, what's wrong with your Horizon (just curious)? Don't really know. I have no info on some of the boards, so I don't know if the jumpers are set for the right addresses. I also can't verify that the backplane serial ports work, or even if the on-board ports work or floppy controller works. Power supply is good, though :). Basically I'm in the dark. I gave up last year because I started to renovate the basement. Now that that's done, this winter, I'll probably start fiddling with it again. Somewhere around here, I have a list of my boards I can send you. Most of the boards are Vector Graphics (ZCB, RAM, ROM), though. > Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think > that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional > machine. >>Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this >>'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's >>just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an "antique computer" eposode. > If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could > restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, > either. >>True, although this would be the way to go, assuming the price is >>right. Even if you just have a pile of old boards, as i said before, >>just get the 'unique' stuff, then fill in the gaps with off-the-shelf >>items. That's essentially what we did in the old days. This would be my ideal project. Just as long as the FP fascia is intact, I think that I could handle everything else. I have a huge box of random S100 cards just waiting for a working home... ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 20 20:53:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2317770,00.html > > > > The computer is going to a museum, and Dell gave > > him a new computer. > > Let me get this straight. Dell get an Altair, which has considerable > value on E-bay, and give a way a PC which has rather less value (it may > well be a faster computer, but). Said PC is also not compatible with > whatever software was in use on the Altair. > > And this is a fair exchange? You need to read the article. The Dell server and printer and monitor and crap (MS software) they gave him was worth $15,000. The only Altair ever to get close to that ended up being a bogus auction. Altairs are typically $2,500 on ebay. Someone in the feedback section on that page asked the same question about porting the software. "Wat about the cost of training and porting the software over?" he asked. Good point. > Couldn't it also have been a 21xx system of some kind? Or is that > definitely not a PC. I'm sure that would have counted. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Aug 20 21:02:58 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 20, 99 06:53:26 pm Message-ID: <199908210202.TAA03758@saul3.u.washington.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > You need to read the article. > > The Dell server and printer and monitor and crap (MS software) they gave > him was worth $15,000. The only Altair ever to get close to that ended up > being a bogus auction. Altairs are typically $2,500 on ebay. I don't buy that argument, for the simple reason that I don't entirely trust their definition of worth. The economic value of anything is based partly on supply and demand and partly on the individual actions of the seller and buyer and partly on the market involved. In the case of the computer market (or industry) I consider the stated value to be more artificial than for other markets. That's especially true of software (and even hardware, these days). In other words, I don't think I would pay $15,000 for the package that is supposedly worth that much. I also might value the Altair more than the replacement package (even though the values are supposedly equivalent). -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 20 21:18:55 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Success w/RT-11 and TCP/IP Message-ID: <199908210218.TAA30562@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990820/60dfe3fe/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 20 21:20:14 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <01bd01beeb76$df3ae600$e992fea9@office1> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an > "antique computer" eposode. Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last year that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally here told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for fear, move straight on ahead to loathing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From at258 at osfn.org Fri Aug 20 21:34:50 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 In-Reply-To: <199908210047.RAA24752@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Quit replying to the list. you're not on it, it's riude and could possibly get me some flack. Reply to individual involved. Kevin has located a PDP-9 for us. Don't have any details yet. The Canon and I went to Block Island today. Very nice sea running, Manisee bounced like a cork. Increadible pictures of her in B?I terminal in a hevy storm LEAPING out of the water! On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Ronald Fraser wrote: > I just got the message, are they still available? If so, I'm interested and > how big are the units? > Ron > > ---------- > >From: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) > >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > >Subject: FW: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 > >Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 10:31 AM > > > > > Fellow here has some good VAXen stuff pretty cheap. Contact directly > > if you're interested. > > > > -=-=- -=-=- > > > > On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: > > > >>>From: wetboy > >>>Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 > >>>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms > >>>User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) > >>>Lines: 29 > >>>Message-ID: > >>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT > >>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.233.85.1 > >>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net > >>>X-Trace: news.shore.net 934282930 192.233.85.1 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 > EDT) > >>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT > >>>Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) > >>>Path: > > > news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.m > axwell.sy > > r.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail > >>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:785 > >>> > >>>MicroVax II: > >>> > >>> BA123 case > >>> RD53 > >>> 9 MB ram > >>> TK50 > >>> VMS 5.3 > >>> > >>>MicroVax 2000: > >>> > >>> RD32 > >>> 6 MB ram (IIRC) > >>> VMS 4.5B > >>> > >>> > >>>VT320, LA75 > >>> > >>>Most of VMS 5.0 "grey wall" (some > >>>notebooks later than 5.0). > >>> > >>> > >>>All for $50.00 > >>> > >>>Pick up near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. > >>> > >>>E-mail me if you are interested. > >>> > >>> > >>>-- Wetboy > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, > > Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com > > Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com > > "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an > object, > > event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define > > any of them..." > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 21:44:03 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 Message-ID: <19990820.214404.254.4.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail writes: >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. >Ruins it >> for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will >have an >> "antique computer" eposode. > >Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last >year >that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally >here >told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for >fear, >move straight on ahead to loathing. It's the END OF the WORLD as we know it, (and I feel fine . . ). ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Aug 20 21:46:11 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Parting out VAX 11/750 Message-ID: <19990820.214612.254.5.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> The parts for the VAX 11/750 have been claimed; all involved parties will be notified of what turns up. Thanks Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Aug 20 22:15:14 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: More (Heavy Duty) DEC Pro Docs Available Message-ID: <37BE19C2.7159837@halcyon.com> You gotta be serious to want these. (a) They're heavy. (b) They're hard core. DEC Professional 300 Series Developer's Tool Kit Nine, 8.5"x11" three-ring binders full of everything you ever wanted to know about developing P/OS (aka RSX-11M+) applications on the DEC Pro. These are all Version 2.0 of the PRO/Tool Kit. You can get almost all the software (last version, 3.2) at ftp.update.uu.se or metalab.unc.edu. The only exception may be the Fortran compiler, which may be available there? (It does include MACRO.) These will take up about two banker's boxes to ship and probably will cost $20-$30 UPS Ground. I will add on a couple of bucks for packaging. If more than one person wants it, I will give preference to someone with something to trade: other DEC Pro hardware or software, or PDP-11/Q-Bus hardware or software/docs. Let me know if you're interested. Here is a detailed inventory of what is included: Professional Tool Kit PRO/Tool Kit Installation Guide and Release Notes Command Language and Utilities Manual RSX-11M/M-PLUS RMS-11 Utilities Manual Volume 1, Introduction Host Tool Kit Installation Guide and Release Notes Tool Kit User's Guide Tool Kit Reference Manual FMS-11/RSX Release Notes PRO/FMS-11 Documentation Supplement FMS-11/RSX Software Reference Manual Volume 2, Video Terminal Subsystem Manual CORE Graphics Library Manual PRO/GIDIS Manual Volume 3, Task Builder RSX-11M/M-PLUS Task Builder Manual Volume 4, P/OS System & TMS P/OS System Reference Manual TMS Programmer's Reference Manual Volume 5, PRO/RMS-11 PRO/RMS-11: An Introduction PRO/RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide RSX-11M/M-PLUS RMS-11 User's Guide Volume 6, MACRO Program Development IAS/RSX-11 ODT Reference Manual Supplement IAS/RSX-11 ODT Reference Manual PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual Guide to Writing a P/OS I/O Driver and Advanced Programmer's Notes Volume 7, PRO-DECnet PRO/DECnet Tool Kit Release Notes Introduction to DECnet PRO/DECnet Tool Kit Installation Guide PRO/DECnet Programmer's Reference Manual Pro/Tool Kit FORTRAN-77 Pro/Tool Kit FORTRAN-77 Installation Guide and Documentation Supplement Language Reference User's Guide Object Time System All the binders are the gray originals except for the FORTRAN volume, which is an orange binder. From marvin at rain.org Fri Aug 20 23:42:54 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet References: Message-ID: <37BE2E4E.6C7DACE1@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > The Dell server and printer and monitor and crap (MS software) they gave > him was worth $15,000. The only Altair ever to get close to that ended up > being a bogus auction. Altairs are typically $2,500 on ebay. You are missing one ***major*** detail. In 10 years or less, that Dell machine will be scrap material while the Altair will most likely be gaining in value. From hansp at digiweb.com Sat Aug 21 00:40:43 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: More (Heavy Duty) DEC Pro Docs Available References: <37BE19C2.7159837@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <37BE3BDB.AED07717@digiweb.com> David C. Jenner wrote: > > You gotta be serious to want these. > (a) They're heavy. > (b) They're hard core. > > DEC Professional 300 Series Developer's Tool Kit > > Nine, 8.5"x11" three-ring binders full of everything you ever > wanted to know about developing P/OS (aka RSX-11M+) applications > on the DEC Pro. These are all Version 2.0 of the PRO/Tool Kit. > You can get almost all the software (last version, 3.2) at > ftp.update.uu.se or metalab.unc.edu. The only exception may be > the Fortran compiler, which may be available there? (It does > include MACRO.) > > These will take up about two banker's boxes to ship and probably > will cost $20-$30 UPS Ground. I will add on a couple of bucks > for packaging. If more than one person wants it, I will give > preference to someone with something to trade: other DEC Pro > hardware or software, or PDP-11/Q-Bus hardware or software/docs. > Let me know if you're interested. > > Here is a detailed inventory of what is included: > > Professional Tool Kit PRO/Tool Kit > Installation Guide and Release Notes > Command Language and Utilities Manual > RSX-11M/M-PLUS RMS-11 Utilities Manual > > Volume 1, Introduction > Host Tool Kit Installation Guide and Release Notes > Tool Kit User's Guide > Tool Kit Reference Manual > FMS-11/RSX Release Notes > PRO/FMS-11 Documentation Supplement > FMS-11/RSX Software Reference Manual > > Volume 2, Video > Terminal Subsystem Manual > CORE Graphics Library Manual > PRO/GIDIS Manual > > Volume 3, Task Builder > RSX-11M/M-PLUS Task Builder Manual > > Volume 4, P/OS System & TMS > P/OS System Reference Manual > TMS Programmer's Reference Manual > > Volume 5, PRO/RMS-11 > PRO/RMS-11: An Introduction > PRO/RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide > RSX-11M/M-PLUS RMS-11 User's Guide > > Volume 6, MACRO Program Development > IAS/RSX-11 ODT Reference Manual Supplement > IAS/RSX-11 ODT Reference Manual > PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual > Guide to Writing a P/OS I/O Driver and > Advanced Programmer's Notes > > Volume 7, PRO-DECnet > PRO/DECnet Tool Kit Release Notes > Introduction to DECnet > PRO/DECnet Tool Kit Installation Guide > PRO/DECnet Programmer's Reference Manual > > Pro/Tool Kit FORTRAN-77 > Pro/Tool Kit FORTRAN-77 Installation Guide > and Documentation Supplement > Language Reference > User's Guide > Object Time System > > All the binders are the gray originals except for the FORTRAN > volume, which is an orange binder. Yes, yesy and yes again (if they;re available...) I suppose shipping to Atlanta in view of the weight. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From tom at tgeller.com Sat Aug 21 01:27:01 1999 From: tom at tgeller.com (Tom Geller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: (for sale) MacWEEKs, Apple developer's CDs Message-ID: <199908210626.XAA25051@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> Time for spring cleaning (yeah, yeah, I know I'm late). Here are some items bound to fascinate those interested in Apple and Macintosh history. * Two years of MacWEEK issues, Jan. 1996-Jan. 1998. Amazing stuff. * Five years (!) of Apple's Developer CD-ROMs. Load every System since 7.0! Tiptoe through the corpses of Dylan, OpenDoc, Rhapsody and PowerTalk! Both series are more or less complete, and in a San Francisco location. Available to the best offer. --Tom Geller tom@tgeller.com --- Tom Geller, San Francisco, http://www.tgeller.com Write for sign-up info for my mailing lists: (1) Personal news, (2) Business-related news, (3) Discussion about suing spammers. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sat Aug 21 00:34:50 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <37BE2E4E.6C7DACE1@rain.org> Message-ID: Sure, but the Dell machine is worth considerably more at the moment. So it's a good deal. If he's going for the long term investment, he could sell it immediately and re-invest the money in 4 more Altairs... On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > The Dell server and printer and monitor and crap (MS software) they gave > > him was worth $15,000. The only Altair ever to get close to that ended up > > being a bogus auction. Altairs are typically $2,500 on ebay. > > You are missing one ***major*** detail. In 10 years or less, that Dell > machine will be scrap material while the Altair will most likely be gaining > in value. > From cutler at nmah.si.edu Sat Aug 21 02:19:34 1999 From: cutler at nmah.si.edu (Alicia M. Cutler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 870 -Reply Message-ID: I will be on vacation from Aug 23 to Sept 15 and will get back to you after that date. I apologize for the delay. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Aug 21 05:22:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <37BE2E4E.6C7DACE1@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Marvin wrote: > > The Dell server and printer and monitor and crap (MS software) they gave > > him was worth $15,000. The only Altair ever to get close to that ended up > > being a bogus auction. Altairs are typically $2,500 on ebay. > > You are missing one ***major*** detail. In 10 years or less, that Dell > machine will be scrap material while the Altair will most likely be gaining > in value. You're missing one minor detail: the Dell can be sold as a collectable, being the system awarded as the prize for the "Oldest Computer Still in Operation" competition in 1999 :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From rcini at msn.com Sat Aug 21 05:28:56 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 Message-ID: <004b01beebc1$0bf9fa60$e992fea9@office1> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail wrote > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have >an "antique computer" eposode. >>Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last >>year that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone >>locally here told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late >>for fear, move straight on ahead to loathing. Aw, crap...there goes the neighborhood. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From jon at techniche.com Sat Aug 21 06:09:05 1999 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP Message-ID: <199908211109.HAA00537@smtp6.mindspring.com> Can someone refresh my memory as to the proper procedure to subscribe & unsubscribe from this list? I need a break to catch up on my e-mail !! Thanks, Jon From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 21 09:31:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 Message-ID: <000a01beebe1$e9892200$0400c0a8@winbook> You can't have it both ways, fellows. If you don't want the "old" stuff to become plentiful in the sense that there are viable copies available which, in a sense, water down the market, and hold down the prices, then eBay will set the prices, and you know what that means. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 5:06 AM Subject: Re. imsai 2 >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail > wrote > >> I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins >it >> for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have >>an "antique computer" eposode. > >>>Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last >>year >that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone >>>locally here told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too >late >>>for fear, move straight on ahead to loathing. > > Aw, crap...there goes the neighborhood. > >Rich > >----------------------------------- >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><---------------------------- reply separator > > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 21 10:14:43 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape In-Reply-To: <05dfb980.712765e6@usw-ex0106-044.remarq.com> References: <05dfb980.712765e6@usw-ex0106-044.remarq.com> Message-ID: <37bec22d.125032617@smtp.jps.net> Lots of useful goodies. I just wish he'd offered them up here first before dumping them on E-pay. Anyway, have a look... -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:49:35 +1700, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>Hi, >> >>For auction on ebay : >>DEC PDP-11/04 TRAP INSTRUCTIONS TEST PROGRAM >>DEC PDP-11/04 CPU TEST CODE ON PAPER TAPE >>DEC PDP RK11/RK05 PERFORMANCE EXERCISER CODE >>DEC PDP-11 M9301 M9400 BOOTSTRAP DIAG CODE >>DEC PDP-11/34 SYSTEM USER'S MANUAL >>DEC PDP-11/04 SYSTEM USER'S MANUAL >>DEC PDP-11 MS11-E-J MOS MEMORY maint. man. >>DEC M9301 PROM/BOOTSTAP/TERMINATOR card doc >>DEC PDP11/04 Engineering Drawings (complete) >>DEC business cards holder (came with PDP doc) >>DEC PDP-11 M9312 Engineering Drawings >>DEC PDP-11 M9312 Module technical manual >>DEC PDP-11/20 DR11-C Engineering Drawings >>DEC PDP-11 RK11-D Engineering Drawings >>DEC PDP-11 RK05J Engineering Drawings >>Check : >>http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=ebay%40curie.fr >> >>Thank you. >>s. >> >> >>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * >>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 10:37:18 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape References: <37bec22d.125032617@smtp.jps.net> Message-ID: <99082111381703.17464@phaduka.neurotica.com> Yeah I about died when I saw those...won't catch me paying shipping from France though. :-/ 11/20 print sets!! AGH!! -Dave McGuire On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: >Lots of useful goodies. I just wish he'd offered them up here first before >dumping them on E-pay. > > Anyway, have a look... > >-=-=- -=-=- > >On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:49:35 +1700, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: > >>>Hi, >>> >>>For auction on ebay : >>>DEC PDP-11/04 TRAP INSTRUCTIONS TEST PROGRAM >>>DEC PDP-11/04 CPU TEST CODE ON PAPER TAPE >>>DEC PDP RK11/RK05 PERFORMANCE EXERCISER CODE >>>DEC PDP-11 M9301 M9400 BOOTSTRAP DIAG CODE >>>DEC PDP-11/34 SYSTEM USER'S MANUAL >>>DEC PDP-11/04 SYSTEM USER'S MANUAL >>>DEC PDP-11 MS11-E-J MOS MEMORY maint. man. >>>DEC M9301 PROM/BOOTSTAP/TERMINATOR card doc >>>DEC PDP11/04 Engineering Drawings (complete) >>>DEC business cards holder (came with PDP doc) >>>DEC PDP-11 M9312 Engineering Drawings >>>DEC PDP-11 M9312 Module technical manual >>>DEC PDP-11/20 DR11-C Engineering Drawings >>>DEC PDP-11 RK11-D Engineering Drawings >>>DEC PDP-11 RK05J Engineering Drawings >>>Check : >>>http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=ebay%40curie.fr >>> >>>Thank you. >>>s. >>> >>> >>>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * >>>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 21 11:00:14 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape Message-ID: <990821120014.2020081b@trailing-edge.com> >>>DEC PDP-11/20 DR11-C Engineering Drawings > 11/20 print sets!! AGH!! He's trying to confuse us: the DR11-C is *not* an 11/20. I think he has the DR11-C (M786+M105+M7821) print set, which is far, far way from an 11/20 (KA11) print set. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 21 12:24:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock Message-ID: While digging through my spares a couple days I came across a very interesting looking card. CODAR TECHNOLOGY INC. MODEL 120 CALENDAR CLOCK ASM 951-1200 REV B COPYRIGHT 1987 MADE IN USA Does anyone have any information on this card, and what OS's it can be used with. Does it require special software? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 21 12:30:27 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock Message-ID: <990821133027.2020081b@trailing-edge.com> >While digging through my spares a couple days I came across a very >interesting looking card. > >CODAR TECHNOLOGY INC. > >MODEL 120 CALENDAR CLOCK >ASM 951-1200 REV B >COPYRIGHT 1987 MADE IN USA > >Does anyone have any information on this card, and what OS's it can be used >with. Does it require special software? See, for source code and documentation, ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/codar/ You'll find the original distribution files (from README.1ST): The Model 120 Calendar Clock Source Kit contains: 1) files to build the programs STIME and RTIME, which set the calendar clock and initialize your operating system's date and time, respectively, RTIME . COM RT11/TSX-Plus command file STIME . MAC Source for STIME for all RT11/TSX-Plus systems RTIME . MAC Source for RTIME for RT11 V4.0 and later (and TSX-Plus) 2) subroutines used by RTIME and STIME to read and set the calendar clock, CCSUBS . MAC Source for subroutines used by RTIME as well as the file CODAR.DIFF, which has the Y2K patches I did a few years back to the sources. Now that you've got TCP/IP working under RT-11, I'll also post my "NBSTIM" source - it goes out and queries a National Bureau of Standards time server for current UTC time and date over the network, converts it to local time, and uses it to check or set the -11's clocks. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 21 12:30:25 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:16:31 -0400 . <004601beea4d$7ebab820$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: In message <004601beea4d$7ebab820$0101a8c0@fred>, "Max Eskin" writes: >Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >> And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest >> research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you >> UNIX. > >Any data on this BrazilOS? Not much that I've been able to find. It's mentioned from time to time on the Plan 9 newsgroup as in: somebody suggest something that could be done better in Plan 9 and Bell Labs replies Oh yeah, we did that in Brazil... There has been some talk that they may actually build a release of it much as they did with Plan 9, though they've suggested that they may release it under the name Plan 9 as a new version. Brian From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 21 12:45:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet Message-ID: <199908211745.NAA08562@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Jon wrote: > Can someone refresh my memory as to the proper procedure to subscribe > & unsubscribe from this list? I'll just post this publicly: send e-mail to listproc@u.washington.edu In the body of the message write: subscribe classiccmp -or- unsubscribe classiccmp The might be optional. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sat Aug 21 11:52:23 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <199908211745.NAA08562@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > >From a business perspecive it's a quantum leap forward and a great deal. > > it was an Altair 8800B, maybe even turnkey version (NO FP) wich was at the > time a very good s100 system but nowhere near as collectable as the original > version. Also I'd bet they'd spend a lot for time trying to resurect any > any pickings they'd find to that level of operation. > > Now it's in some corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, > or should the company fold or change hands become some excess furniture. > I sincerely doubt it will run much and even if it does it's less likely > they would know what to do with it. Didn't the article mention something about the Altair being donated to a museum? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Aug 21 13:01:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > Now it's in some corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, > > or should the company fold or change hands become some excess furniture. > > I sincerely doubt it will run much and even if it does it's less likely > > they would know what to do with it. > > Didn't the article mention something about the Altair being donated to a > museum? The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, California. http://www.computer-museum.org Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 21 13:06:55 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:20:33 -0800 . Message-ID: In message , Mike Ford writes: >>Brian L. Stuart wrote: >> >>> And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest >>> research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you >>> UNIX. They seem to take great pride in naming systems with >>> names that make marketing cringe. The predecessor to Brazil >>> was Plan 9 after the infamous sci-fi movie Plan 9 From Outer >>> Space. >> >>Actually, I think the full name is "Plan 9 from Bell Labs", which is more >>faithful to the original title than "Plan 9" would be. You're right about >>making marketing cringe, though! > >Interesting since the marketing behind M$ OSes is directly from Plan 9 from >outer space, "you earthlings are stupid, stupid, stupid." > >Best I can do before my morning tea, and yes its been one of those days. I love it!!! Now if we could only convice the earthlings that they really aren't stupid (well at least not always). Brian From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Aug 21 13:29:41 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <199908211745.NAA08562@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Now it's in some corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, > or should the company fold or change hands become some excess furniture. > I sincerely doubt it will run much and even if it does it's less likely > they would know what to do with it. Apparently Kai's recent rant did not sink in too far. Sigh... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 12:57:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <199908210202.TAA03758@saul3.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Aug 20, 99 07:02:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1405 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990821/2a8c912c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 13:01:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 20, 99 07:20:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 738 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990821/6c056757/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 13:02:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 21, 99 03:22:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 471 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990821/ccdd0027/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 13:08:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape In-Reply-To: <990821120014.2020081b@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Aug 21, 99 12:00:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 595 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990821/9988a80f/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 21 14:06:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock Message-ID: <005201beec08$53e0fda0$0400c0a8@winbook> If I'm not mistaken, this one was built for us when I was with Martin Marietta, working on a JPL project to militarize uVAX-II hardware in our customized packaging. It works with VMS, and I doubt there was little else done with it in conjunction with our project. I worked on other parts of the system (rotating memory), but that company, located in Longmont, CO, I believe, may still be in business. Codar built the customized backplanes for us to use in our portable and extreme-temperature tolerant boxes, along with a few other odds & ends. I once was called upon to rectify a problem with one of their switch panels, which I did with a resistor array (a minor oversight). Dick -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock >While digging through my spares a couple days I came across a very >interesting looking card. > >CODAR TECHNOLOGY INC. > >MODEL 120 CALENDAR CLOCK >ASM 951-1200 REV B >COPYRIGHT 1987 MADE IN USA > >Does anyone have any information on this card, and what OS's it can be used >with. Does it require special software? > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 21 14:09:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 Message-ID: <005d01beec08$becdbb80$0400c0a8@winbook> Sooner or later, someone will bring in a TI "Speak-N-Spell" which was one of the most important mass-produced electronic toys of the '70's. Once they become rare enough that they bring a good price, lots of plastic-packaged electronics will appear, right along with those Ming-dynasty vases. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Re. imsai 2 >> > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it >> > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an >> > "antique computer" eposode. >> >> Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last year >> that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally here >> told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for fear, >> move straight on ahead to loathing. > >Certainly on the UK version of the programme, somebody brought along a >Sinclair calculator, and one of the 'experts' said that these machines >were becoming ever more collectable. I've never seen any electronic >equipment on the programme apart from that, though. > >-tony > From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 21 14:54:03 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > > Now it's in some corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, > > > or should the company fold or change hands become some excess furniture. > > > I sincerely doubt it will run much and even if it does it's less likely > > > they would know what to do with it. > > > > Didn't the article mention something about the Altair being donated to a > > museum? > > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, > California. La Mesa! > > http://www.computer-museum.org > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 858-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 15:04:28 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape References: <990821120014.2020081b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <99082116052701.18187@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >>>>DEC PDP-11/20 DR11-C Engineering Drawings >> 11/20 print sets!! AGH!! > >He's trying to confuse us: the DR11-C is *not* an 11/20. I think >he has the DR11-C (M786+M105+M7821) print set, which is far, far way from >an 11/20 (KA11) print set. Argh. I deleted the original list...was there indeed a KA11 print set in there, or just a DR11-C "as used in the 11/20"? -Dvae McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 21 15:14:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, > > California. > > La Mesa! Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters for saleable souveniers? Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 15:16:24 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet References: Message-ID: <99082116170202.18187@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, >> > California. >> >> La Mesa! > >Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters >for saleable souveniers? Oh you've GOT to be kidding. Tell me you're not serious. -Dave McGuire From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Aug 21 15:26:01 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990821132601.0360e31c@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:14 PM 08/21/1999 -0400, Allison wrote: >> > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, >> > California. >> >> La Mesa! > >Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters >for saleable souveniers? No, I believe that was the Boston Computer Museum prior to the establishment of the Historical Computer Center at Moffit Field. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From donm at cts.com Sat Aug 21 15:54:20 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, > > > California. > > > > La Mesa! > > Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters > for saleable souveniers? > > Allison > I have a hazy recollection of that event, but I don't think(?) it is the same one. This one exists in conjunction with Coleman College - computer training. - don From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 21 16:10:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:57 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet Message-ID: <199908212110.RAA09527@world.std.com> <>> > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa <>> > California. <>> <>> La Mesa! <> <>Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters <>for saleable souveniers? < < Oh you've GOT to be kidding. Tell me you're not serious. < < -Dave McGuire I ask the question, not knowing the answer. I do hope I'm very mistaken. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 21 16:10:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet Message-ID: <199908212110.RAA09623@world.std.com> <> Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters <> for saleable souveniers? <> <> Allison <> < On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Allison J Parent writes: ><> Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters ><> for saleable souveniers? ><> ><> Allison ><> >< >the >computer >< > >I'm happy to hear that. TCM does not rank high on my list of, things to >do to historical items. Preserving history, understanding it is very >difficult and an active wholsale destruction of any machine for money >is the same as tomb raiding for gold. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's pretty much what my local scrapper does . . . . Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 16:28:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <199908212110.RAA09527@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 21, 99 05:10:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990821/33fe3c20/attachment.ksh From rosenave at octoblob.rfnet.sfu.ca Sat Aug 21 17:05:02 1999 From: rosenave at octoblob.rfnet.sfu.ca (Dennis Rosenauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Parting out VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <19990820.194026.235.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at "Aug 20, 99 07:36:18 pm" Message-ID: <199908212205.PAA29759@octoblob.rfnet.sfu.ca> According to jeff.kaneko@juno.com: > > Guys: > > There's a VAX 11/750 that will soon be parted out. > If there are any tid-bits of this thing you want, > please LMK via private e-mail. > I also have a VAX 11/750 and have been looking for a few parts. I am looking for the UM Boot Prom. This is the boot prom to support booting the VAX directly from an Emulex SC-31 disk controller. The boot prom is located on the memory controller, this will be the board labelled L0016 or L0011 depending upon the vintage of the VAX. The prom should have a part number on it with #278B or Emulex #287B. Even the contents of the prom would be useful. If you have anything like that please let me know. I of course am willing to pay for the part and shipping etc. Dennis. -- Dennis Rosenauer VE7BPE | A computer running for 2 seconds rosenave@octoblob.rfnet.sfu.ca | can make as many mistakes as 20 | men working for 20 years. From a2k at one.net Sat Aug 21 17:24:02 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The don't know what has happened to it, but shortly after they got it, > PDP6 modules were on sale in the gift shop. > -tony > Crying... From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Aug 21 18:22:01 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Message-ID: <199908212320.SAA06056@garcon.laidbak.com> Hi. I just acquired a Rainbow (haven't seen it yet, so I don't know many specifics) but it has a color monitor and the guy said he also had a touchscreen attachment for it. Anybody have pointers to where I can find out a little more about this beast? The guy I'm getting it from told me it was working the last time he used it, so I should be a happy camper in a couple of days. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Aug 21 19:40:31 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: <19990821.161932.106.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: There seem to be some foolish people on this list, judging from two of today's posts. Kai made some great points a while back in his rant, so I will not repeat them, but I would like to add one - that of "public relations". The two awful posts in question show that there is a problem brewing. The two posts were basically concerned with dealing with those people outside of this list. The first post was about the zdnet Altair possibly going into "corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, ...". It seems this person (along with quite a few others) does not think too highly of corporate institutions, even though quite a few have established (or at least made an honest effort) museums and protection for their historic holdings. In places where politics plays serious games - basically most corporations - badmouthing can cause a great deal of long term damage. Why should a Vice President of some company bend over backwards to some amateur computer historian that just ripped the name of the company into shreds? The dumpster is kind of close, and some goodies may get tossed extra hard, just for spite. Likewise, some surplus cash at the company could be used for new paperclips, rather than a donation to a local old computer group. There are corporate heads that do care a great deal, and some probably listen in on this list. I know for a fact that some of the higher echelon, including the President, of ANS (my former employer) were quite interested in the fates of some of the old NSFnet gear. If I had made some less than friendly remarks about ANS to this list (or anywhere public, really), I think the supply of old networking goodies that RCS was being given would have dried up in an instant. Now I do not know what kind of corporate support VCF gets, if any, but it could go away instantly as well, with just a few short posts. Of course, with all of the Microsoft and IBM bashing that goes on here, it would be a miracle if any support ever came from that pair ever again. The other troublesome comment was about the recyclers: "That's pretty much what my local scrapper does . [tomb raiding for gold]. . .". Now these people are by no means a source of cash or prestige for any historical groups or individuals, but they are a source of artifacts. If you keep slamming them about, they will have no problem scrapping out that next rare 1960s machine they get. Good relations with scrappers go a long way - I know several that will _not_ scrap an oldie out without consulting a collector now. At least one now actually saves the really good bits for himself. Now if you go into a scrapyard screaming "bloody murderer", you can bet that the PDP-8/e you have been eyeing will be loaded into the Taiwan bound container first, probably on its face. Once again, just for spite. Yes, this is politics. Just remember that its a good idea to have friends in high places. Having enemies up there does no good to anyone, but with a little responsibility, is easily avoided. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From max82 at surfree.com Sat Aug 21 19:56:24 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) Message-ID: <000601beec39$2b2ccd40$0101a8c0@fred> >Yes, this is politics. Just remember that its a good idea to have friends >in high places. Having enemies up there does no good to anyone, but with >a little responsibility, is easily avoided. Also known as "Don't burn your bridges behind you"... From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Aug 21 20:06:35 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: <000601beec39$2b2ccd40$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: > Also known as "Don't burn your bridges behind you"... Yes, but we ought not burn them ahead of us, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 19:56:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <199908212320.SAA06056@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Aug 21, 99 06:22:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4420 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990822/fca019ef/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Aug 21 20:54:00 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP Message-ID: <4.1.19990821214656.00a99100@206.231.8.2> Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containing all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece of Sellam's msg: >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:54:17 -0700 (PDT) >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >List-Help: >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Subscribe: >List-Owner: (Human contact for the list) >List-Post: >From: Sellam Ismail >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >Subject: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP >X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >X-Authentication-Warning: shell1. ncal.verio.com: dastar owned process doing >-bs > >On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Jon wrote: > >> Can someone refresh my memory as to the proper procedure to subscribe >> & unsubscribe from this list? > >I'll just post this publicly: > >send e-mail to listproc@u.washington.edu -- snip -- May be the reason Jon had no info at hand how to unsubscribe . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 21 21:15:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: bill@chipware.com Message-ID: <001b01beec44$434cf200$0400c0a8@winbook> Someone asked me for help with his IMSAI box, including the front panel with which you've recently done battle. Do you have a schematic available in some machine-readable form? I'd like to help this guy but it's a bootstrap situation. Until at least one or two things are functioning, you're working blind. If you could send or point me to a machine-readable schematic of this FP, I'd be better able to encourage this fellow. I'd rather not foist him off on you. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:05 PM Subject: IT'S ALIVE! (IMSAI) >I meant to post this Tuesday, but things got busy. >My IMSAI is up with the front panel, CPU and >memory card. I can now reliably do all front >panel operations and can toggle in and run short >programs on either the 8K SRAM or 64K DRAM card >(only one in the box at a time). For those keeping >score: > >Replaced all chips on the front panel. All are >now socketed. > >Replaced two switches on the front panel. > >Routed several traces around burned or otherwise >damaged spots on the front panel. > >And... (this is the kicker) >Re-patched the MWRITE circuit. The original (and >incorrect) patch brought the SOUT signal to U25 >pin 5. What was actually required at U25 pin 5 >was NOT-SOUT. > >So next, I suppose, is to get the MIO working >(at least the serial port) so I can get a terminal >on this baby. If anybody has MIO REV.2 schematics, >it might make my life easier. To begin with, all the >chips on this card are socketed. It is a very neatly >and carefully done soldering job. The following chips >are missing: U8, U11, U30 and U34. I can see the >silkscreens for U30 (74LS32) and U34 (8T20), but the >sockets hide the silkscreens for U8 and U11. Does the >absence of these chips simply indicate that one of the >functions of this board is disabled? > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink From aknight at mindspring.com Sat Aug 21 21:26:08 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990821222608.00841d40@pop.cphl.mindspring.com> Well, I didn't know that my original posting about the Dell winner would generate so many postings ;-) In spite of the pros/cons about the lawyer who turned over his Altair for a WinPC, one good thing (I think) that came out of this contest is publicity/awareness regarding the preservation of classics. Case in point is that when I got home last night and finally had a chance to read yesterday's local paper, in the business section there was an article about the Dell contest and the museum, including a photo of one of the curator (David Weil) trying to bring up a Commodore PET. While I wasn't surprised to hear about the contest & museum on the 'net, I was quite surprised to read about it in a local paper here in central North Carolina (right there next to the news about Red Hat). It was an Associated Press article, so it is bound to have appeared in other papers nationwide. FWIW, the article says that the museum has 200 "pieces", including a 360 mainframe, "the KIM Homebrew computer, a kit which sold for $25 ..." (I wonder if they dropped a zero), and a "Royal Precision Vacuum Tube Computer" - described as being built in 1963, with 113 vacuum tubes (sounds like a small number to me), drom memory, disk, & paper tape reader. The article also said there was some kind of storage disk from 1965 that was the size of a tractor-trailer tire, holding 2.5 Mbytes, and had to be sandblasted to be erased. (Huh???). Anyhow, this kind of awareness is a good thing, IMO. At 11:01 AM 8/21/99 -0700, Sellam wrote: >The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa, >California. > >http://www.computer-museum.org Regards, Alex Calculator History & Technology Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Aug 21 21:56:12 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: /Rant mode='ON'/ Having been in (and peripherally associated with) the 'Surplus Business' for many years... I can assure you that it is a small and clannish group of folks... one of the refreshingly more "small world all of it's own" type businesses. The folks who make really good livings from the Refuse of Technology many times operate on handshakes and reputations, and I assure The List that if you can be percieved as a good customer and a help to that person... by pointing out the 'pearls' in the stream, then in many cases you, too, can have access to the back rooms and hidden warehouses that exist all over the country. A businees is supposed to make money. Curently a big IBM 370/XX installation might be worth anywhere from $3-5K in recovery (read 'Gold').. minus the costs involved of transportation and processing. Can you offer more than that? Can you broker the system to someone who will preserve it.. and make everyone money along the way? Can you show the surplus dealer how to make more money for less work? And are you just someone who shows up regularly and buys stuff now and then... and maybe offers some good conversation once in a while...? All of this goes toward setting up a relationship with a palce (or places). My first surplus job was over 30 years ago, and it evolved from customer to part-time employee. My point is that most 'scrappers' are making their living doing it and *do not* harbor dark secret animosities toward old gear. But they tend to be busy, independent people who do not suffer fools gladly. Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a scrapyard here in SoCal. One day a pice of choice military radio gear appeared that my friend coveted. He brought the Dealer out into the yard to do a little Dealing. Now, both of them knew that the radio was worth about $250, and of course both knew that it had not cost that much. Since the Dealer regarded my friend as a somewhat 'good' customer, he said "Make me an offer." My smart-ass friend thought he had the Surplus Business wired, and offered $25. The Dealer said "Yeah, wait here.." and went off, ostensibly to get a handtruck. When he returned, he also had a five-pound sledgehammer, and he proceeded to beat the radio into crinkly little bits while friend watched aghast. When he was done, the Dealer said "Sold!" My friend at least had the class to buy the remains, and last I saw him, still had it in a corner of his workshop in a box... just to remind him the next time he set out insult someone's intelligence. So quit whining about scrappers scrapping and get out there and save some Classics from those 40-foot containers bound for Taiwan. God knows I loaded enough of them myself. But now I go and sin no more.... /rant mode='OFF'/ Cheers John From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Aug 21 22:00:55 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet Message-ID: <20691a76.24f0c1e7@aol.com> In a message dated 8/21/99 9:51:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time, aknight@mindspring.com writes: > In spite of the pros/cons about the lawyer who turned > over his Altair for a WinPC, one good thing (I think) > that came out of this contest is publicity/awareness regarding > the preservation of classics. Case in point is that > when I got home last night and finally had a chance to > read yesterday's local paper, in the business section there was > an article about the Dell contest and the museum, including a photo > of one of the curator (David Weil) trying to bring up a Commodore PET. > While I wasn't surprised to hear about the contest & museum > on the 'net, I was quite surprised to read about it in a > local paper here in central North Carolina (right there next > to the news about Red Hat). It was an Associated Press article, > so it is bound to have appeared in other papers nationwide. > > FWIW, the article says that the museum has 200 "pieces", including > a 360 mainframe, "the KIM Homebrew computer, a kit which sold for > $25 ..." (I wonder if they dropped a zero), and a "Royal > Precision Vacuum Tube Computer" - described as being built in > 1963, with 113 vacuum tubes (sounds like a small number to me), > drom memory, disk, & paper tape reader. The article also said > there was some kind of storage disk from 1965 that was the > size of a tractor-trailer tire, holding 2.5 Mbytes, and had > to be sandblasted to be erased. (Huh???). > > Anyhow, this kind of awareness is a good thing, IMO. > well, awareness of old computers IS good, but like any hobby, once the speculators get involved, it's not a hobby anymore. eventually (and unfortunately) once the general populace mistakenly thinks that ANY old computer is worth hundreds or thousands of dollars it will be hard to find anything collectable cheaply. i'm trying to get a complete mac plus with the original boxes from my neighbor, but she's got that mindset and probably wont sell it for any realistic price although i try to downplay any investment value in computers. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Aug 21 22:29:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) Message-ID: <199908220329.XAA14249@world.std.com> From: William Donzelli Message-ID: >See, for source code and documentation, > > ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/codar/ Cool, Thanks Tim! Guess it's a good thing I wanted to use it on my RT-11 system though :^) Have to give this a try once I get my floppy problem solved. Though now that I've got TCP/IP working floppy support is less important. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Aug 21 23:10:54 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: imsai 2 (but way OT) Message-ID: <384c0f96.24f0d24e@aol.com> I wrote: > > We put the internationally awe-inspiring name ACME on ours ;>) Tony Duell replied: > The only place those letters should appear in electronic equipment is on > a particular type of tuning indicator. That's funny! I'll be sure to rush down to city hall monday morning to change our company name! How about: Intelligent Machine Store of America, Inc. -- then we cound brand our systems "IMSAI" ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Aug 21 23:55:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > just a few short posts. Of course, with all of the Microsoft and IBM > bashing that goes on here, it would be a miracle if any support ever came > from that pair ever again. I've never seen any IBM bashing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 00:09:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, John Lawson wrote: > Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a <...> > had the Surplus Business wired, and offered $25. The Dealer said > "Yeah, wait here.." and went off, ostensibly to get a handtruck. > When he returned, he also had a five-pound sledgehammer, and he > proceeded to beat the radio into crinkly little bits while friend > watched aghast. When he was done, the Dealer said "Sold!" My friend I don't care how you choose to frame it. That guy was an asshole. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 00:19:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet In-Reply-To: <20691a76.24f0c1e7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > well, awareness of old computers IS good, but like any hobby, once the > speculators get involved, it's not a hobby anymore. eventually (and > unfortunately) once the general populace mistakenly thinks that ANY > old computer is worth hundreds or thousands of dollars it will be hard > to find anything collectable cheaply. i'm trying to get a complete mac That's not true really. You'll always find treasures hidden away somewhere that can be had for cheap. One still can find amazing antiques at garage sales or flea markets or even the trash that are worth way more than the seller wants for it. Watch the Antiques Roadshow and you'll hear dozens of anecdotes of people finding antiques for cheap somewhere that end up being valued at hundreds or thousands of dollars. I still find great old machines for the same prices I was paying a couple years ago before the ebay phenomenon because I spend a lot of time out in the field searching. One must just work harder these days. And I don't care to hear any moans about the fact that I live in California. If that means you have to fly out here then so be it. I just happen to be in a place more apt to turn up stuff. And where you're at may or may not have much stuff to turn up, but I guarantee you it holds more than you think. You just haven't found it yet. And you haven't done the work necessary to root it out. E-mail me if you want some ideas. I started a "computer finding" FAQ a while back that I never finished. I think now is a good time to compelte it. > plus with the original boxes from my neighbor, but she's got that > mindset and probably wont sell it for any realistic price although i > try to downplay any investment value in computers. Don't worry. There are probably 10 more like it in your area that you just haven't found yet, and at least 5 of those belong to owners who probably just want to get rid of it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Aug 22 01:45:30 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Surplus... (was Re: Damn fools) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990821234530.0350c034@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:09 PM 08/21/1999 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, John Lawson wrote: > >> Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a ><...> >> had the Surplus Business wired, and offered $25. The Dealer said >> "Yeah, wait here.." and went off, ostensibly to get a handtruck. >> When he returned, he also had a five-pound sledgehammer, and he >> proceeded to beat the radio into crinkly little bits while friend >> watched aghast. When he was done, the Dealer said "Sold!" My friend > >I don't care how you choose to frame it. That guy was an asshole. Perhaps true, but not unusual in the business from my experience, (keeping in mind that my travils have centered around the NorthWest) although the sledge hammer approach might be a bit extreme. Case in point: a local surplus dealer (now retired) whom I dealt with for many years and considered a bit of a friend, while he often let me in on 'deals' on items he knew I might be interested in, we would just as often absolutely refuse to budge on a price for an item that I considered totally outrageous, and that I suspect that he knew he would probably never see paid. Over the years we had some rather animated discussions, (probably described as arguments by people less familar with his methods of dealing) which I still fondly remember as quite entertaining/amusing/frustrating/etc... Sadly, in most cases nothing short of a simultaneous act of God and both houses of Congress would ever persuade him to change his mind, and eventually you would find the item in pieces scattered around the store. But you know, once you got to know him you also found out that it was nearly impossible to 'insult' him with an offer, and on occasion you might even get a surprise as long as the item in question did not have a price tag. Once that hit, it was cast in stone! He also had regular (quarterly I think) half-price sales, but the usual buzz amoung the 'regulars' in the weeks preceeding a sale would be the speculation (more often than not, correct) on what items would suddenly go AWOL during the sale, only to reappear again the week after. Once, not too long before his retirement I finally just asked him why he operated like this. The answer was as direct as it was annoying. He had (and implied that this existed throughout all 'serious' surplus dealers) a list not unlike a automotive 'blue book' detailing easily resold components and their values. After some 30+ years in the surplus business (he must have been successful at it, as his store was only ever open three days a week) he knew 'on sight' what components were available from almost any item, and from that it was assigned a value. From there, assuming that the item could be obtained for the (considered) nominal 5%-15% of that assigned value it went into stock, and was tagged at anywhere from 5%-10% under that value (for something that was a real pain to strip down) to 25%-100% over the value (for easily stripped or high demand items) and placed on the floor until the time/inclination/need to strip it down came along. Simply enough, if the tagged amount was not offered by the time came to strip it down... It ended up in pieces. And sometimes, there may have only been a small fraction of the total item that was considered to be 'of value', so the rest of would either end up as parts scattered around the store or straight off in to the dumpster of recycling bin. Imagine my shock and horror one day when I stopped in to find the totally gutted chassis of a large, late model VAX CPU sitting against the wall! That one never even made it onto the floor intact! Anyone want to venture a guess what the 'items of interest' were??? Believe it or not, the power supplies and blowers! (straight off to a DEC reseller) Boards scattered around everywhere, front console on a shelf, and the card cage/backplane off into the can since it was too large for its value... (AARGH!) Curiously enough, I am neither defending or critisizing the practice... Just relating my experiences and what I have been told by those who should know... Actually, with this and a few other things that I've learned this week about common 'business practices', I'm becoming massively disallusioned with the whole structure of 'modern business'. Just convinces me that much more that I don't want to get involved with it amy more than I have to... (where vintage computers are concerned... and some other things, but that is yet another story...) B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Aug 22 02:37:38 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock Message-ID: <199908220737.DAA24216@world.std.com> >Cool, Thanks Tim! Guess it's a good thing I wanted to use it on my RT-11 >system though :^) Have to give this a try once I get my floppy problem >solved. Though now that I've got TCP/IP working floppy support is less >important. About a year ago, I received from someone who had moved into the Mill complex in Maynard, *the* pdp-11/73 which had, until DEC moved out of the mill, monitored building temperatures and controlled various bits of the heating/cooling system. (It still has all the code on it, in source form no less -- MicroPower Pascal)... It has one of the Codar boards in it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 22 02:55:27 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: My own thoughts on surplus... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990822005527.00972a60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I practically grew up with the surplus market. I've been buying and selling stuff related to it for nearly 20 years. I'd like to take a moment and add my own thoughts to the thread. Bear in mind that said thoughts are the product of late-night ramblings after a long day. Take them however you please, or ignore them. I won't mind either way. I hate to say it, but these days it all comes down to money. Many of the real 'tinkerers' of years past are gone, and some of those tinkerers, I'm convinced, ran (or helped to run) surplus stores during earlier (and, IMO, somewhat happier) times. Now, greed is running rampant, and its not limited to the surplus field either. Anyway... back in the 70's and early 80's, deals that most of us would consider pretty darn good were relatively easy to come by in both computing and military surplus hardware. It was not at all uncommon for dealers to help out folks they knew were truly interested, even if it meant selling something intact for a little less than they might have been able to get if they scrapped it out. During the late 80's to now, that mindset seemed to undergo a radical change. Surplus stuff was, and is, still available, but prices have shot through the roof in many cases, while the variety of stuff, and the quality thereof, have declined significantly. I blame this mainly on two things: The "PC Revolution" and the prevalent attitudes in our public school system. 1). The "PC Revolution." The advent of PCs did a lot to bring cheap computing power into the hands of home users. The problem here is that consumer pressure pushed PCs from well-built reliable systems into cheesy 'commodity' electronics that could be quickly and easily mass-produced. Such mass production and cheap availability removed much of the incentive folks once had to learn about basic electronics, digital circuitry, etc. This means demand for certain types of surplus, such as component parts and some types of test gear, slacked off. Why? Because those who might have gotten into the field as a hobby settled for buying consumer-grade crap off-the-shelf, no matter how cheesily it might have been built, instead of modifying existing equipment, or building their own device. In short: Somewhere along the line, quality, serviceability, functionality, and longevity became less important than cosmetic appearance and ease of operation. Surplus places are often choked with equipment that was never designed to last more than a couple of years. 2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such epithets have been flying around our public school system for decades, along with a social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured out, seems to actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering skills, and pursuit of interests in the physical sciences. Fewer people in the sciences means fewer would-be engineers and technicians. This also means fewer people who are likely to want to tinker with anything other than "politically correct" technology (again, PCs, because they're often plug-and-pray). Where I'm going with this: Demand for 'commodity' surplus (PC parts) shoots on past demand for equipment that may be more reliable, or more rewarding as far as gaining a virtually free technical education goes, but that actually requires some degree of technical skill to repair or use. I believe these attitudes have spawned a new generation of surplus dealers who, in many cases, know darn little about what they may have except how much they can make off it if they scrap it, or sell the parts to another reseller. Greed is, unfortunately, running rampant, and many good machines have suffered, and likely will continue to suffer, as a result. The best possible thing I think we can all do is keep rescuing what you can. Keep educating those who are curious about what you do, why you do it, and why those who are curious should be interested in tech history. If you meet up with someone who shows interest in the field, point them in a good direction to develop it! The worst possible thing I think any of us can do is alienate the very people who have access to "classic" equipment, and the power to decide what's done with it. This includes spewing vitriol at dealers via E-mail or in person, or treating what any of us might consider a "dumb" question from a curious youngster or adult as just that. As has been said before, "The only truly stupid question is the one that you keep to yourself." There are, and will always be, exceptions. The fellow who brought out a perfectly usable piece of gear, only to beat it to bits with a sledgehammer in front of the buyer, should be shown no mercy whatsoever. There's just no excuse for wanton destruction or waste in the name of spite. People who show little interest in a system other than "Can it run Windows?" may be beyond help. HOWEVER... I would not be sitting here now and typing this had it not been for several very wise and patient people who inspired me to pursue electronics as both a hobby and career. If I can, within my lifetime, inspire even one other person to follow a similar course, and to fight back against peer pressure, I'll be a happy camper. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 22 05:09:28 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11 Message-ID: OK, it looks like I figured out why I've not been able to get the RX50's on my PDP-11/73 working, dead RQDX3. Of course it's my only one that can handle RX33's, thankfully I'm more interested in RX50's. Anyway, I've got a problem, and part of it might be what a mutant beast this system is. If I have DU7: set to one of the drives on the RX50 the system crashes after 1 minute (I actually timed this, and it was so close to 1 minute it was disturbing). I've not tried any other combo's of setting the RX50 in the system, but don't see why that would matter. The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I call it a mutant beast is the following: Controller CSR Vector Purpose Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does) RQDX3 160354 144 RX50 DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=0 (Boot Disk) DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT=0 (Backup Boot Disk) DU2: is set UNIT=0, PART=1, PORT=0 DU3: is set UNIT=0, PART=2, PORT=0 DU4: is set UNIT=1, PART=1, PORT=0 DU5: is set UNIT=1, PART=2, PORT=0 DU6: is set UNIT=0, PART=3, PORT=0 DU7: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=2 After one minute, I get the following: . 134606 @ I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment, I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a floppy drive. In the mean time, I think I'll have to give that Codar clock a try. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cdrmool at interlog.com Sun Aug 22 06:52:21 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow/colour monitor Message-ID: <001201beec94$cbe5c2e0$2e0214d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> I've gone through a number of old reviews of the Rainbow including the October 1984 issue of "Popular Computing" and see no mention of a touch screen. From my knowledge there was a choice of three monochrome monitors -amber, green, and white, and a colour monitor. Graphics modes also available. If there was a touch screen monitor available, I will have to alter my wish list. colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C@xoommail.com From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Aug 22 07:02:26 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <199908212320.SAA06056@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990822080226.007b1280@mail.wincom.net> At 01:56 AM 8/22/1999 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi. I just acquired a Rainbow (haven't seen it yet, so I don't know >> many specifics) but it has a color monitor and the guy said he also >> had a touchscreen attachment for it. > >I've never heard of a touchscreen for the Rainbow, and I suspect, >therefore, that it's a 3rd party thing. > > >> >> Anybody have pointers to where I can find out a little more about >> this beast? The guy I'm getting it from told me it was working the > >I can tell you a little about the hardware. The motherboard contains 2 >processors (8088, used for CP/M 86 and MS-DOS, and a Z80, used for CP/M >80), 128K (normally) of RAM, BIOS ROMs, a text-only video output >(essentially the video circuit from a VT100), a couple of serial ports >(one for the 'comms' (modem), one for a printer -- note the DB25 on the >back is _not_ a parallel port), keyboard interface, and a lot of TTL >glue. There are no expansion slots as such, but there are connectors to >allow up to 4 boards to be fitted on top (each board has a particular >position that it goes in). > >All machines have the RX50 (floppy) controller down the RHS. This is a >Western Digital 1793 chip + support logic > >At the front left you'll have a 'colour card'. This is complex. It's got >an NEC 7720 graphics coprocessor on it, along with 64K of video RAM, >colour look-up table and more TTL glue. This is needed if you have a >colour monitor in the system, but you can also use it with a mono monitor >(to give bitmapped graphics, since the 'bow motherboard video is >text-only). > >Behind that you might have a RAM card. There are 2 versions of this (at >least). The older one is a plain 192K card. The later one will take up to >3 banks of chips, either 64K in a bank or 256K in a bank (any mix). Yes >you can have 896K of RAM in the machine. > >Behind that, across the back of the machine is the 'general purpose' >expansion slot. The 2 connectors for this have just about every signal >you could want on them. The most common card to find here is the hard >disk controller (WD1010 + support chips), which links to an RD51 (10 >Mbyte MFM drive, probably an ST412). There was also a comms card that >went here, but I've never seen it. > >The unit can be dismantled without tools [1]. Under the sides of the case >are 2 little catches that you slide forwards and flip out to release the >cover, which then lifts off. On top of the chassis are the drives >(there's always an RX50 in the RH bay, and sometimes another RX50 or an >RD51 in the LH bay). You can remove the drives by unplugging the cables, >releasing the spring catch under the front edge of the drive, and >sliding it out. > >Across the back of the upper chassis is the PSU. To get that out, unplug >the power cables from the motherboard, drives, and fan/switch assembly, >release the clip on the left end and swing it up and out. > >To remove the 'logic module' (motherboard and all the cards), unplug the >power cable (thick ribbon cable) and the drive cables from it (there's a >hole in the rear right of the chassis). Loosen the 4 black thumbscrews at >the back, and slide the cards out of the back of the machine. You can >frob the clips on the standoff posts and unplug the cards from the top of >the motherboard. > >[1] I really have never seen the point of such cases. You need a >soldering iron, logic analyser, etc to fix the machine anyway, so having >a screwdriver is no big problem. And anyway, to take some of the Rainbow >modules apart (like the PSU), you do need screwdrivers. > >The keyboard is a plain LK201. The colour monitor is a VR241 (plain >TV-rate sync-on-green). You'll get a cable with a DA15 on one end (goes >into the connector on the back marked 'video', and a box on the other end >with 3 pigtails/BNCs (to go into the monitor) and an RJ11 (for the >keyboard cable). > >The RX50 disk drive is strange. It's 2 drives in 1, sharing a common >spindle motor, head stepper, etc. The top disk (drive A IIRC) goes in the >normal way up.. The bottom disk goes in upside-down. If you have genuine >DEC RX50 disks, then you line up the orange arrow on the disk with the >orange line on the front of the drive. > >If you want to look inside the RX50 (and you should - once....), take it >out and take out the 4 screws on the mounting skid on the bottom. The >metal can then slides off backwards. Dismantling it further is possible, >but it's not that easy. (I've done it, though, and got it back again). > > >-tony > > > Tony, you should be charging us tuition, but I am glad you'r not. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Aug 22 08:07:00 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: More (Heavy Duty) DEC Pro Docs Available References: <37BE19C2.7159837@halcyon.com> <37BE3BDB.AED07717@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <37BFF5F4.4BFF817D@halcyon.com> Hans, I think I have a prior taker on this. Thanks, Dave Hans B Pufal wrote: > > David C. Jenner wrote: > > > > You gotta be serious to want these. > > (a) They're heavy. > > (b) They're hard core. > > > > DEC Professional 300 Series Developer's Tool Kit > > Yes, yesy and yes again (if they;re available...) I suppose shipping to > Atlanta in view of the weight. > > Regards > > _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- > Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 22 08:38:49 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Another Question on Codar Clock Message-ID: The Codar Clock board has a jumper to turn the battery power on and off for the board. What good is this? Is this just a way to save the battery life when the board isn't in a system? Is the board any good without the batteries? It doesn't seem to be, but... Considering I've no idea how ancient the batteries are, they amazingly enough function well enough for me to be able to turn the system off for a short period of time and back on. Not sure if they're strong enough for longer periods. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 22 08:45:00 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Another Question on Codar Clock Message-ID: <990822094500.20200865@trailing-edge.com> >>See, for source code and documentation, >> >> ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/codar/ >Cool, Thanks Tim! Guess it's a good thing I wanted to use it on my RT-11 >system though :^) You'll find that the file CCSUBS.MAC is specifically for RSX-11. It also has a nice little table at the top, summarizing some of the programming differences between the Codar 101/102/120/150/151 models. >The Codar Clock board has a jumper to turn the battery power on and off for >the board. What good is this? Is this just a way to save the battery life >when the board isn't in a system? > >Is the board any good without the batteries? It doesn't seem to be, but... I have several different Codar boards, and they all have batteries set up slightly differently. I *think* my 120 has two independent sets of batteries, with a jumper to select which one is being used, to allow you to change batteries without disrupting the clock. >Considering I've no idea how ancient the batteries are, they amazingly >enough function well enough for me to be able to turn the system off for a >short period of time and back on. Not sure if they're strong enough for >longer periods. If they're like my Codar 120, they're lithium batteries, and good for 7 years or so. I got a new set from Radio Shack about two and a half years ago. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 22 08:51:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11 Message-ID: <990822095155.20200865@trailing-edge.com> >The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I >call it a mutant beast is the following: > >Controller CSR Vector Purpose >Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board >WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does) >RQDX3 160354 144 RX50 There's no real need for RT-11 to know about the existence of the WQESD, if there aren't any drives there. I'd do a SET DU:CSR2=160354 and map any other ports to unused CSR's and see if that helps. If you ever want to get rid of your WQESD, let me know - I *love* them - they're wonderfully configurable controllers, and particularly good under RT-11 as you can get 8 bootable OS's per drive. >After one minute, I get the following: > @134606 ... >I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment, Which monitor - FB? XM? SJ? If you do a SHOW MEM (on a running system, clearly!) where does 134606 fall? Which version of RT-11? RT-11 5.3 had some seriously screwy problems with the DU driver in some situations, and the early 5.4's had some serious difficulties. 5.4G isn't so bad, but not as good as 5.5 or later. >I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a >little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set >to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a >floppy drive. Are you running any foreground jobs simultaneously? TCP/IP, maybe? Does the crash happen if you don't start up the foreground jobs? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From bill at chipware.com Sun Aug 22 09:39:08 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 Message-ID: <199908221434.KAA04910@mail.chipware.com> > > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it > > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an > > "antique computer" eposode. > > Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last year > that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally here > told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for fear, > move straight on ahead to loathing. Oh! I can't wait... "Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was actually designed to do." From bill at chipware.com Sun Aug 22 09:57:37 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: bill@chipware.com Message-ID: <199908221453.KAA04994@mail.chipware.com> > Someone asked me for help with his IMSAI box, including the front panel with > which you've recently done battle. Do you have a schematic available in > some machine-readable form? I'd like to help this guy but it's a bootstrap > situation. Until at least one or two things are functioning, you're working > blind. Yea, tell me about it! > If you could send or point me to a machine-readable schematic of this FP, > I'd be better able to encourage this fellow. I'd rather not foist him off > on you. I don't know of one on the net. After a lot of searching, the guy I got the IMSAI from found his schematics. We have a scanner at work. I'll see if I can get a good scan of it this week and email it to you. Bill Sudbrink From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Sun Aug 22 10:00:02 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, it looks like I figured out why I've not been able to get the RX50's on > my PDP-11/73 working, dead RQDX3. Of course it's my only one that can > handle RX33's, thankfully I'm more interested in RX50's. > Dead-Dead RQDX3? or not talking properly? I have a couple (spare) RQDX3s that I would be willing to part with for 1.2*shipping... One is completly untested (got for $low bid) from EBay, the other has never been used with RXxx's (only RD53 & RD54)... I also have a RQDX3 breakout board which splits the signals to all the drives... Let me know clint PS I am fighting with new mail delivery software... Boy I love sendmail.cf... From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 22 10:19:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: bill@chipware.com Message-ID: <199908221519.LAA24502@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990822093116.0354456c@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:39 AM 08/22/1999 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. >Ruins it >> > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will >have an >> > "antique computer" eposode. >> >> Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last year >> that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally >here >> told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for fear, >> move straight on ahead to loathing. > >Oh! I can't wait... > >"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that >IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only >worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working >lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was >actually designed to do." Well then... I guess my self-imposed 'vow of poverty' is safe for the forseeable future since I have this nasty tendancy to prefer to have things running. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 22 11:31:46 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > plus with the original boxes from my neighbor, but she's got that > > mindset and probably wont sell it for any realistic price although i > > try to downplay any investment value in computers. > Don't worry. There are probably 10 more like it in your area that you > just haven't found yet, and at least 5 of those belong to owners who > probably just want to get rid of it. Mac Plus 1MB + external drive $10 Commodore 128 + monitor + 1571 drive $10 at the Berkeley Humane Society rummage sale. Nobody bought. Now they're talking dumpster! Should I tell them about e-bay? From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 22 12:03:04 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: <199908220329.XAA14249@world.std.com> Message-ID: > > Since the quote is from my post why not step away from ad hominin > commentary. If you wish to be singled out, then fine. There are many on this list with the same attitude, so it more or less applies to lots of people. The attitude is one of elitism (sp?) - that our little circle of collectors is far and away the best place for all of our machines, and that if you are not in the circle, you are trash not worth of even the most common box. > Since reading out of presented contects is going on... First: I worry > that material will be lost. Never did I say dell was a bad guy, they may > be offended themseleves by other bad guys actions. Put yourself if the shoes of some guy from zdnet or Dell - that quote is basically a direct slam against how well corporate institutions treat historical artifacts. Dell and zdnet happened to be be "in the wrong place at the wrong time" - and their names were dragged around a bit. > Yes and yes, some very good, some are failures. DEC made an effort with > what lead up to TCM is Boston... what happend after DEC stopped funding > them is where matters apprently went awry. We should ask why. It seems that the DEC U.S. collection turned TC"M" is just about the only massive failure, and even then, DEC wins back a lot of points for the DEC Australia collection (now under independent control). Look at some of the successes - Westinghouse, Motorola, IBM (for a time). There are many more smaller ones, too - U.S. Robotics even had a very small exhibit (they still do, even after the 3com buyout). Most of these corporate museums are SERIOUS about what they do, and frankly, put us to shame when it comes to how well they treat their holdings (how many of us keep out goodies in climate controlled rooms, stored or displayed with dignity, completely cataloged for researchers, handled with cotton gloves, and restored and operated according to all of the rules of thumb for museums?). > While there is the sound of truth in this I think this is a gross over > reaction. While your comments on political care are warrented, that does > not override someone elses personal opinion or concerns. The latter be > more important. No one was accused of doing anything bad, only concerns > of "what if". The problem is that some of those "what if"s tend to be rather offensively written, often using blanket statements that immediately put people in a defensive position. Nobody likes that. > Interesting juxtapostion of two comments from two people that see things > differently. My Tomb raiders was NOT aimed at scrappers, I doubt they > make much of the gold fingers and the aluminum. I was aiming at the those > that break up rare systems for pure cash and little care of historical > value. No, I have never heard you lash out at the scrappers, but many others have (that is why the original post was split up - same concept from two different people). There have been a great number of posts badmouthing the scrappers in the past, and yesterday, another one came up. And, no, scrappers can make a lot of money off of the gold. The average desktop PeeCee contains 2 to 9 dollars worth at today's price. Obviously, the big systems are the cash cows. > No doubt true. the scrapper is doing a job, the dope that dropped it > there is the one that deserves the slap. But then again business has > priorities. Where we can help is to make it easy, maybe even a small > value to those that might otherwise scrap systems. Now here we go again. Calling this imaginary person a "dope" is really bad form. Does he deserve to be called a "dope", simply because he is working 55 hours a week, and his boss tells him to get rid of the old system because they need the floorspace (and sometimes power)? I have been in this situation many times, working in computer rooms around the country. I did not have a few hours to devote to trying to find equipment good homes, even if it was on my own time. Pretty much the best one can do is put out a post to the list or the newsgroups, and hope someone can fit _into_ the schedule. My point is that many people on this list are quick to cut down others, most often with no real reason. The problem is once said, it is hard to take back - "no second chances for first impressions", or however that goes. That imaginary "dope" has now added you to his shitlist, and the other PDP-8/e he has will also head to the scrapper, even though the "dope" has the name of someone that would take it. Once again, "public relations". > True, however your comments sound much like censorship. People don't like > that and most companies do not either. I figured that word would come up. No, you can say whatever you like to others, individual or corporate. Just be sure you know what the consequences are, and that they may effect you, a group, or the whole collecting scene as a whole. I, for one, think that being group labelled an "elitist whiner" is not a good thing. "Respectable collector" sounds much nicer, but I think the former label is what we are headed towards due to the attitudes of many on this list. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Aug 22 12:26:37 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) Message-ID: <19990822.122638.46.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:40:31 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli writes: < Bunch of stuff SNIPped > >The other troublesome comment was about the recyclers: "That's pretty >much what my local scrapper does . [tomb raiding for gold]. . .". Now these Yeah, that's what I said, and it's based on my experiences with a local party. I bring him a pile of stuff culled from his various heaps, and the question is "Let's how much gold you got there". That's all it boils down to, because that's how he chooses to operate his business. I've tried to impress upon him that this stuff is worth more alive than dead, but he is slow to understand. I made this statement because it parallels the 'treasure hunter' mentality towards archeological digs during the early part of the last century. "How much gold we got?". Alot of history got melted as a result. But I'm tired of talking about this. The good people know who they are, and everyone else seems to know who they are. The assholes tend to remain clueless, but we can usually work around them (or at least pick up the pieces after the fact, which is what I do). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 12:34:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: IMSAI docs online? Message-ID: Is there a scan of the IMSAI hardware manual online anywhere? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From bill at chipware.com Sun Aug 22 12:50:16 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: IMSAI docs online? Message-ID: <199908221745.NAA05932@mail.chipware.com> > Is there a scan of the IMSAI hardware manual online anywhere? Uh, "The Hardware Manual" doesn't seem to exist. There are manuals for the individual components by the board. I now have originals for the front panel (CPA), the power supply, the 8085 CPU board (MPU-B), and one of the floppy controllers (DIO-C). It looks like the imsai.net guy is trying to put stuff up. I'll scan what I have as I get the time and access to the scanner and send it to him. Bill Sudbrink From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 12:56:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Surplus... (was Re: Damn fools) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990821234530.0350c034@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, James Willing wrote: > Once, not too long before his retirement I finally just asked him why he > operated like this. The answer was as direct as it was annoying. He had > (and implied that this existed throughout all 'serious' surplus dealers) a > list not unlike a automotive 'blue book' detailing easily resold components > and their values. I guess I'm just spoiled. At one local electronic surplus shop I go to, they basically look at what you got and throw out a (sometimes seemingly random) price. The bigger your pile, the lower the relative price. You can negotiate with them a little but risk insulting them. If you tell them what you're looking for they will keep those items intact for you, and will even warn you when something you like will be coming into the store. After they get to know you (and know that you're a good, paying customer) they will let you root around in the back where all the stuff that hasn't been processed is piled up. But, it did take me a while to develop a good relationship with these guys. For a time I felt they were dicking me around, and I vowed never to go there again at one point, but I gave it another shot, softened my tactics and eventually learned how to deal with them. Sometimes I'll just accept a price they quote, even though I think it's way too high, because I know it'll make it easier to deal with them some other time. Other times they give me really good deals, sometimes surprising me. Some of the guys in the surplus business just don't want to bother with having to run a business. They'd like you to just come in, see what's for sale, and buy it without giving them too much trouble and making them do more work than they expected to when they got up that morning. If you give them the least amount of hassle possible then they will be more amiable towards you. And I'll just reiterate what others have said which is you need to develop and nurture a relationship with these guys that takes time and patience. I've learned that. > Actually, with this and a few other things that I've learned this week > about common 'business practices', I'm becoming massively disallusioned > with the whole structure of 'modern business'. It took you long enough :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 13:11:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: My own thoughts on surplus... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990822005527.00972a60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > 2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such > epithets have been flying around our public school system for decades, > along with a social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured > out, seems to actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering > skills, and pursuit of interests in the physical sciences. The gay commnuity did a good job of wresting the word "queer" away for their own self-empowering use. So in the same way it seems to me the words "nerd" and "geek" are turning into positive labels in today's internet-influenced society. More and more I'm seeing references to "nerd" or "geek" being used with a positive bent. I'm doing my part by proudly wearing my VCF "nerd" and "geek" shirts out in public a lot, and they are well received by many. I get smiles and chuckles. People are realizing that they need these geeks and nerds to help them figure out why their computer isn't working, or why they can't get on the internet, so they have attained a new status approaching reverence in today's world. I do see some evidence of the tide turning in favor of intellectualism, but it's still far from what it should be in a perfect world. > There's just no excuse for wanton destruction or waste in the name of > spite. Preach on, Brother Bruce! > HOWEVER... I would not be sitting here now and typing this had > it not been for several very wise and patient people who inspired me > to pursue electronics as both a hobby and career. If I can, within my > lifetime, inspire even one other person to follow a similar course, > and to fight back against peer pressure, I'll be a happy camper. Survival of the geek and nerd species depends on us. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 13:21:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Another Question on Codar Clock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The Codar Clock board has a jumper to turn the battery power on and off for > the board. What good is this? Is this just a way to save the battery life > when the board isn't in a system? > > Is the board any good without the batteries? It doesn't seem to be, but... Well, on the Lisa, there is a switch to turn off the onboard batteries, because if you don't then over time they leak out all over the backplane and can cause damage (I've seen it a few times). On the machines where the switch has been turned off you don't see this happening. So perhaps these jumpers server the same purpose? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 22 13:31:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:58 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) Message-ID: <199908221831.OAA13511@world.std.com> <> Since the quote is from my post why not step away from ad hominin <> commentary. < Message-ID: >There's no real need for RT-11 to know about the existence of the WQESD, >if there aren't any drives there. I'd do a SET DU:CSR2=160354 and >map any other ports to unused CSR's and see if that helps. Since I'm using this as a way to help stay awake, I ran a SYSGEN so it's only got two ports. That seems to help a little, now I can have the mapped without crashing, but it will crash about a minute after the drive is accessed. >If you ever want to get rid of your WQESD, let me know - I *love* them - >they're wonderfully configurable controllers, and particularly good under >RT-11 as you can get 8 bootable OS's per drive. Figure the odds, I'd like to get another :^) >>After one minute, I get the following: >> @134606 ... >>I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment, > >Which monitor - FB? XM? SJ? FB. >If you do a SHOW MEM (on a running system, clearly!) where does 134606 >fall? If I'm reading it correctly it's in RMON. .sho mem Address Module Words ------- ------ ----- 160000 IOPAGE 4096. 155510 DU 604. 132210 RMON 4960. 121322 EQ 2267. 001000 ..BG.. 20585. . 134624 @134624/000776 >Which version of RT-11? RT-11 5.3 had some seriously screwy problems with >the DU driver in some situations, and the early 5.4's had some >serious difficulties. 5.4G isn't so bad, but not as good as 5.5 or later. Great :^( I knew that V5.4 wasn't the best, and this is a early version. Not sure the exact revision. >Are you running any foreground jobs simultaneously? TCP/IP, maybe? Does >the crash happen if you don't start up the foreground jobs? Before reSYSGENing it to only support 2 ports it crashed one minute after startup with nothing haveing been done when the drive was mapped. Opps, I think I figured out why it was doing that, after the SYSGEN I mapped it to DU2: and DU3:, prior to the SYSGEN I had one drive mapped to DU7: and when the computer booted it tried to find a logical disk there. (headphones and troubleshooting don't mix) Now however, I just ran a fairly intensive mess over TCP/IP (did a tar -tvf' on a 150Mb tar file on a UNIX box, LOTS of output to the screen) it didn't crash. OK, I've run a bunch of tests the last few hours while writing this up (and spending a lot of the time with the troubles at work). I have found one setting on the RQDX3 that I'm not sure about. Should I have the LUN set, and if so to what? Actually in this case identifying the jumpers to jumper might be helpful, as I'm using a scan of the pages dealing with the RQDX3, and don't have actual doc's on it. What I do have isn't clear at all about LUN's. I think I should either not have it set, or set it to 4 or 8, but.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 22 13:44:21 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11 Message-ID: <990822144421.2020072f@trailing-edge.com> >OK, I've run a bunch of tests the last few hours while writing this up (and >spending a lot of the time with the troubles at work). I have found one >setting on the RQDX3 that I'm not sure about. Should I have the LUN set, >and if so to what? Actually in this case identifying the jumpers to jumper >might be helpful, as I'm using a scan of the pages dealing with the RQDX3, >and don't have actual doc's on it. What I do have isn't clear at all about >LUN's. I think I should either not have it set, or set it to 4 or 8, >but.... Some operating systems will insist that unit numbers on one MSCP controller not duplicate those found on another. RSTS/E is picky about this, but RT-11 isn't - you can start the unit numbers from wherever you want. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Aug 22 14:08:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990821214656.00a99100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containing > all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece of > Sellam's msg: Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE doesn't display it for me. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From max82 at surfree.com Sun Aug 22 14:47:50 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: My own thoughts on surplus... Message-ID: <005201beecdd$1519ea20$0101a8c0@fred> Before you flame me about this e-mail, read this disclaimer: what is in this may be construed as heresy to the religion of this mailing list. I'm not being heretical. I am a very curious person, and I like to deal with machines, sometimes even build my own. Below are my observations of society at large, and the explanations which fit. It does not reflect on classic computer collecting and other hobbies to which you may be partial. Original message from Bruce Lane: > 1). The "PC Revolution." The advent of PCs did a lot to bring cheap >computing power into the hands of home users. The problem here is that >consumer pressure pushed PCs from well-built reliable systems into cheesy >'commodity' electronics that could be quickly and easily mass-produced. You mean, "it pushed companies". Home users used IMSAIs, PETs, Apple ][s, TRS-80s, and other cheesy, easily mass-produced machinery, and before that they simply didn't use anything. > Why? Because those who might have gotten into the field as a hobby settled >for buying consumer-grade crap off-the-shelf, no matter how cheesily it >might have been built, instead of modifying existing equipment, or building >their own device. Well, consider that at a certain time, building computers was a trend. A lot of people did it, a lot of people enjoyed it. Now, certain other computer-related things are trendy, and a lot of people do them and enjoy them. I don't think that this can be blamed on the PC revolution, I think it should be considered the natural flow of things. By the same token, a lot of people now work on Web design. This will lessen when web design has evolved to a formulaic, mechanical task (it's already happening). Cheesy consumer-grade crap cannot be built on a kitchen table these days. Nobody would build a PCI VGA card when one can be bought for a lower price. > 2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such epithets have >been flying around our public school system for decades, along with a >social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured out, seems to >actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering skills, and pursuit of >interests in the physical sciences. For one thing, don't start blaming the problems of your hobby on public schools. Secondly; I haven't heard those labels at my school, mostly because they're not used. They're not used because it's no longer reasonable to BE a geek. Sir Lancelot was quite useful in his age, but if he came into an army recruitment center today, people would see him as Don Quixote. His approach is no longer valid. The fact that curiosity is discouraged is very true, and a very important point. The reason why is a blend. Most kids haven't a clue why they're forced to learn what they learn, and they say that they'll never need it again. When they become teachers, therefore, they have no idea why they're teaching what they teach. And so, when a student displays curiosity, the teacher sees it as his job not to harvest curiosity, but to make sure that the student is learning what he's supposed to, just for the sake of learning (I do speak from experience). When I have seen a piece of equipment which I wanted to know more about in my school's science lab, the teachers often display a strong desire to chase me out of the lab, or the entire school if it's after school hours. Of course, from a social viewpoint, this has an excellent use: it keeps people in power, it keeps corporations making money, without a whole lot of challenge. This has (or so I've heard) been different during the space race days, when it was necessary to have as many scientists as possible working on the rockets. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 22 16:04:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: RQDX3 - It gets wierder! Message-ID: Just doing some more testing, as I wanted to see if I could successfully retrieve data from floppies with the system wanting to crash after a minute. I discovered something REALLY ODD. It crashes after a minute, BUT that is a minute after there has been no activity with the RX50. This is so wierd, however, if I can't find a solution, I think this is a behavior that I can actually live with. Besides since it sounds like this might be a problem with the version of RT-11 I'm running, I suspect I'm stuck with it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sun Aug 22 15:05:37 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You have to enable the "enable-full-header-cmd" in the pine configuration file. Then "H" turns full headers on and off. On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > > > Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containing > > all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece of > > Sellam's msg: > > Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you > read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE > doesn't display it for me. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sun Aug 22 15:43:30 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Geeks? was Re: My own thoughts on surplus... In-Reply-To: <005201beecdd$1519ea20$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: From donm at cts.com Sun Aug 22 17:56:45 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > > > Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containing > > all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece of > > Sellam's msg: > > Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you > read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE > doesn't display it for me. It is viewable - for me at least - if I enter 'h' which displays full headers. Much more than I normally want to see, however. - don > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 13:33:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990822080226.007b1280@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Aug 22, 99 08:02:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990822/fef45d03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 13:38:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: bill@chipware.com In-Reply-To: <199908221519.LAA24502@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 22, 99 11:19:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 667 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990822/65036c66/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 17:36:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 22, 99 01:03:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1420 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990822/3690583d/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Aug 22 18:19:33 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: BIOS Source Code! Message-ID: <4.1.19990822161756.00c885c0@mcmanis.com> I've been cleaning up and found a DOS 3.3 disk with a copy of my Cromemco BIOS source code, including the Turbo PASCAL disk formatter! (Talks to a Cromemco 16FDC) Enjoy, the page with the link is here: http://www.home.mcmanis.com/~cmcmanis/ --Chuck From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Aug 22 18:20:06 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: References: <199908212320.SAA06056@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Aug 21, 99 06:22:01 pm Message-ID: <199908222319.SAA16378@garcon.laidbak.com> Wow! Thanks a lot, Tony! I'll be able to get it tomorrow night, and now I'm all psyched about opening it up and taking a look around inside! I'm pretty sure that there is no software with it. Does anybody have a source or would be willing to share a little with me so I can actually make it do something besides light up? THIS is why I continue to subscribe to this list. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 22 18:32:27 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: RQDX3 - Problem Solved. Message-ID: Well, Thanks to an idea that the RT-11 "Software Support Manual" gave me, it looks like I solved my problem. I copied the DU device handler to DA, and set the CSR's and Vectors such that DU is the Viking, and DA is the RQDX3. It has now been 30 minutes since I looked at the floppy sitting in the RX50 and the system hasn't crashed. This has the added benifit of allowing me to have DU0-DU7 for the Hard Drive partitions and DA0 & DA1 for the floppies. Cool, can't decide if I want to takle adding in some Serial Ports, or work on getting the DEC Pro380 up and running. I highly recommend working on Classic Computer projects as a method of staying awake, nice to be using them to stay awake instead of loosing sleep because of them :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 18:33:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: GPIB tools In-Reply-To: <000001bedac4$96097540$46c502cf@l7> from "Roger Goswick" at Jul 30, 99 02:49:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/e9103e46/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 19:09:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: <199908222319.SAA16378@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Aug 22, 99 06:20:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 943 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/9ad6e1b2/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Aug 22 19:42:30 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Braille terminal Message-ID: <199908230042.AAA18699@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I put a few digital camera photos of a old braille terminal (Feb 1977 vintage) in a directory at http://www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/braille These are 1280x960 jpg images, not at the highest image quality setting for the camera. Most of the photos are of the interior of the unit, ie, the power supply and the card cage. The card cage is made of wood. I'm not quite sure what to do with this unit. There probably werent many braille terminals made in the 70's, and like most things, they probably were disposed of when they became obsolete. Maybe this should be donated to a computer museum. Of course, I wrote down some chip numbers and such, and promptly lost the sheet of paper I wrote it down on.. I think it was made by Triformation Systems Inc. Model LED-120. The grey socketed chip was a F 8003 or was that 8002? The 3 chips with white stickers on them are the same chip number, probably some sort of prom. The large black chip, possibly a cpu of some sort, i forget the number exactly.. Trying to read it from the photo, it looks like 6503N, from i think national semiconductor (it has a dual ~ followed by a / as some sort of identifiying symbol). Well, hopefull someone is interested in seeing this. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 22 20:51:46 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:56:12 -0700 (PDT) . Message-ID: In message , John Lawson writes: > Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a >scrapyard here in SoCal. One day a pice of choice military radio gear >appeared that my friend coveted. He brought the Dealer out into the >yard to do a little Dealing. Now, both of them knew that the radio >was worth about $250, and of course both knew that it had not cost >that much. Since the Dealer regarded my friend as a somewhat 'good' >customer, he said "Make me an offer." My smart-ass friend thought he >had the Surplus Business wired, and offered $25. The Dealer said >"Yeah, wait here.." and went off, ostensibly to get a handtruck. >When he returned, he also had a five-pound sledgehammer, and he >proceeded to beat the radio into crinkly little bits while friend >watched aghast. When he was done, the Dealer said "Sold!" My friend >at least had the class to buy the remains, and last I saw him, still >had it in a corner of his workshop in a box... just to remind him the >next time he set out insult someone's intelligence. While I fully agree that one must not insult the intelligence of a potential business associate, I just can't hold back telling a story of a low-ball that worked. Several years ago an old friend from college, my wife and I were strolling around a hamfest and came across a rather nice 19" equipment rack. It was about 6' tall, had fans in the top and hinged doors on both sides and the back. The rollers and paint were even in good condition. After chatting a bit, the seller said we should make an offer. While I was pondering if he would take $50 or $100 for it and if I could justify that (I was in grad school at the time), my wife piped up and asked "How about $15?" My college chum and I just stood dumbfounded while the seller thought for a second and said "Ok." And that's how I ended up with my rack. Brian From macierno at cvm.msstate.edu Sun Aug 22 22:01:14 1999 From: macierno at cvm.msstate.edu (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: grad student looking for old but working VMS system Message-ID: grad student looking for old but working VMS system - (read - inexpensive) If anyone can point me in the direction of a microvax or VAXStation please let me know........... thanks..... mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 22 21:03:18 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Score of the Day References: <199908230042.AAA18699@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <99082222090300.21492@phaduka.neurotica.com> A few racks sitting in the backyard at a local equipment recycling house caught my eye today. They'd been there for quite a while, but up until now I'd always been busy with other things. So I went digging today, and scored a near-perfect RL02 drive, a pair of RLV12 boards with cabling, and three DELUA boards with cabinet kits. All for the princely sum of $50! Woohoo! There's another RL02 there which may be in similar condition to the first, but I was unable to get to it this time. I'll dig deeper for it next time I'm there. Also in the pile is a board by ACC that I don't recognize...it's labeled "UNI/VERS U-Board"...Unibus<->Qbus converter, perhaps? This was in a chassis that held an RLV12 and a few other Qbus boards, and it was part of a large VAX 8650 system...that's why I was thinking a bus adapter. Anybody know for sure? -Dave McGuire From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Aug 22 22:56:06 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11 References: Message-ID: <37C0C656.CC8229EC@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, it looks like I figured out why I've not been able to get the RX50's on > my PDP-11/73 working, dead RQDX3. Of course it's my only one that can > handle RX33's, thankfully I'm more interested in RX50's. > > Anyway, I've got a problem, and part of it might be what a mutant beast > this system is. If I have DU7: set to one of the drives on the RX50 the > system crashes after 1 minute (I actually timed this, and it was so close > to 1 minute it was disturbing). I've not tried any other combo's of > setting the RX50 in the system, but don't see why that would matter. > > The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I > call it a mutant beast is the following: > > Controller CSR Vector Purpose > Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board > WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does) > RQDX3 160354 144 RX50 > > DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=0 (Boot Disk) > DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT=0 (Backup Boot Disk) > DU2: is set UNIT=0, PART=1, PORT=0 > DU3: is set UNIT=0, PART=2, PORT=0 > DU4: is set UNIT=1, PART=1, PORT=0 > DU5: is set UNIT=1, PART=2, PORT=0 > DU6: is set UNIT=0, PART=3, PORT=0 > DU7: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=2 > > After one minute, I get the following: > > . > 134606 > @ > > I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment, > I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a > little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set > to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a > floppy drive. Jerome Fine replies: It is really difficult to say why you are getting a crash at 134606. It may be because of the "BAD" RQDX3, but I just don't know and really don't have a clue. I do have one suggestion. Why not have 2 MSCP device drivers? I know that might seem a bit silly when you don't really need the extra partitions (or do you - I thought that the you were using large ESDI drives on the Viking QDT). One point I agree with is that when you are using DEC MSCP device drivers that can't even do a software boot (Sorry Megan - I just don't understand why DEC would leave out ONE instruction in the secondary boot program that is written into block zero) of non-zero partitions, you have used DU0: and DU1: with their respective UNITs and PART=0 both times which allows either to be hardware booted. I suggest instead: RQDX3,2,1 (which ever you use that actually works) = 172150/154 Viking QDT = 160334/150 WQESD = 160354/144 (not that you will actually set the VECTOR) Then place the hard drives on the Viking QDT controller on a device driver called VI: (I used to call my Sigma device driver SI:) and keep the DU: device driver just for the RX50. BUT, don't forget that a simple copy of DU(X).SYS to VI(X).SYS is not sufficient. There are also a number of locations that must modified: (a) SET VI: CSR=160334 SET VI: VECTOR=150 (b) wherever DU appears as .RAD50, change it to VI You can set up the VI(X).SYS on the hard drives along with the DU(X).SYS, but you will have some trouble in switching to the above suggested CSR/VECTOR settings unless you can get a bootable RX50 on the RQDX3,2,1 If you can, and you can produce the necessary VI(X).SYS, on the RX50 (you will also need SIPP to make the (b) changes, and you can get everything to work correctly with the new hardware and software set-up, then copy the VI(X).SYS to the hard drives on the Viking controller. Then as a test, boot the hard drives on the Viking controller as a software boot using: "BOOT VI0:RT11FB" That will be a software boot for those hard drives and will test that everything works. If possible, have the hard drives under WRITE PROTECT (and first make a backup of the RX50 and WRITE PROTECT it so you can't lose it). Once you get that far, the final step (without WP) is to: "COPY/BOOT VI0:RT11FB.SYS VI0:" either from the hard drive itself or from the RX50 (the latter might be a bit safer). After that, the WQESD (I presume you are using a dual 11/73 M8192 without hardware BOOT ROMs) should allow you to directly boot the Viking hard drives if you specify the correct controller: "B DUB1" if I remember the syntax. If you need help setting up the VI(X).SYS, please ask. If you rarely use the RX50 (I only use the RX50 to transfer stuff to and from the PC using PUTR from John Wilson), then you need not load DU: in any case. The above stuff was done from memory and I may have omitted minor points and been mistaken on others. But, I have successfully run the following MSCP device drivers: DU(X).SYS = 172150/154 RQDX2 with RD53/RX50 QR(X).SYS = 172140/144 RQDX3 Q=dual VR(X).SYS = 172130/134 RQDX2,1 V=quad,2nd HI(X).SYS = 160334/130 Hitachi ESDI drives SE(X).SYS = 160434/140 Seagate ESDI drives all at once and been able to boot from all of them. Finally, if anyone is interested (so far no one has been and at this point it would be a while before I could respond), I can supply a DU(X).SYS for V5.4G and prior which will boot non-zero partitions. > In the mean time, I think I'll have to give that Codar clock a try. They are fun to use, but probably not really worth the effort. But at this point, there is only fun left - so go for it. I think that Tim has also modified the code so it can be Y2K compliant. When I fixed the software for a different version, I found that the year in the TOY rolled over from 99 to zero. So it was a simple matter to: Cmp #99.,Year ;Branch if 20th century Bhis $10 ; is present Add #100.,Year ;Switch to 21st century 10$: But I would check just in case for your model. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Aug 22 23:34:19 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: q On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > In message , John Lawson writes: > > Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a [mucho snipola] > > While I fully agree that one must not insult the intelligence of > a potential business associate, I just can't hold back telling [mas snipola] > > Brian > What I call 'scores' are one of the reasons I get up at 5:30 AM on the last saturday of every month and grog it down to the TRW swapmeet here in Southern California. True Example: Last year someone I know rolled in to his space rather late in the day as I happened to be walking by. As he lifted the hatch of his minivan... the blue and red switches of an IMSAI 8080 called out to me. And sure enough.. it was a complete system, fully fleshed out, with two dual 8" floppies, manuals and software. "Umm... how much ya want fer the old 'puter?" "Shit, I dunno, make me an offer." "Okay, fifty bux!" "Okay, it's yours. You want me t'help ya take it over to yer truck?" [sure, as soon as the shock wears off and I can walk again...!] And many many more of the same I could relate. POINT CLARIFICATION: The UberPoint I was trying to make with the sledghammer story was that we, as patrons of Surplus Businesses and Saviors of Old Tech, might improve our 'chances' by understanding, just a bit, the milieu of the Scrapper and Surpluser. Yeah, there's assholes out there... one of the most famous, old-line companies here in SoCal is run by a belligerant twit who cares only for the metal value in most things, and who *generously* prices 40-year-old test gear at %50 off the catalog price when new. What frosts me is the number of **IDIOTS** who pay the man's prices, and thus perpetuate the mindset. And Mr. X. could care less... he's a millionaire several times over, but the money has never affected his blue-collar junkyard attitude. Okay, sorry... enough ranting already. Cheers John PS: Thank you A.C.F... you oughta see the kiddie's faces when I turn out the lights a fire up the big Tesla coil I bring to my Tech Demos. It insantly converts them into a roomful of Geeks... hehehe!! From mbg at world.std.com Mon Aug 23 00:44:11 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11 References: Message-ID: <199908230544.BAA24235@world.std.com> Please remember that simply copying the device handler DU to another one (DA or VI, depending who suggested it) and setting the CSR and VECTOR are not sufficient when running under XM. The MSCP device driver creates an extended-memory region which is called 'DU $ ' (the spaces are significant). Only one driver can use said region. Another driver will have to use another region. So, in order to make this work completely under XM, I've usually copied the DUX.SYS handler to another one (DAX.SYS), done the appropriate SET DA CSR=nnn VECTOR=mmm commands, then used SIPP to go in and look for all occurrances of the Rad50/DU/ and changed them to Rad50/DA/. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Aug 23 01:12:22 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer info? Message-ID: I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer.. not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job. The docs that are with it are just the operaor's guide. I therefore will begin a search for the assembly manual and possibly any theory of operation manuals, circuit diagrams, program set-ups, etc. I think these are not too plentiful, but I will perform due diligence and see if Heath can be of any help. Many times they still have old manuals around and will copy them (for a fee). In the meantime, if anyone on The List has any info pertaining to this computer, it would help me get it back on the air. Finally... a computer that glows in the dark... 2 K3WL D00DZ!!! Cheers John From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Aug 23 02:12:14 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? References: Message-ID: <012701beed36$d4aa4ca0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, 20 August 1999 5:40 Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? > I noticed my friends AlphaServer 2100 has the same card poking out the back > as one of the cards in my neatly sorted pile of old ethernet cards. The > card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat > LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? Sounds like it. If you look closely at the metal backplate, it will have DExxx where xxx= number i.e 203 or 205 etc engraved on it if it's a Digital card. (Not to mention Digital logos all over the card itself.) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Aug 23 02:18:38 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Success w/RT-11 and TCP/IP References: <199908210218.TAA30562@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <01a701beed37$bc732700$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, 21 August 1999 11:48 Subject: Success w/RT-11 and TCP/IP > OK, I'd just like to say that I'm done posting messages everywhere I can > think of asking if anyone has any idea what my problem with getting TCP/IP > up under RT-11 was. Now I'm posting message everywhere, while jumping for > joy because I've got it running! > > I'm typing this from the system console and so excited it isn't even funny! > Nice one Zane... FWIW, what was the problem? Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 23 02:40:09 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer info? References: Message-ID: <99082303403402.21746@phaduka.neurotica.com> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, John Lawson wrote: >I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer.. >not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job. Hey man...can you put up some pics of this? -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 23 02:56:39 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Success w/RT-11 and TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <01a701beed37$bc732700$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: <199908210218.TAA30562@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >> I'm typing this from the system console and so excited it isn't even >funny! >> > >Nice one Zane... FWIW, what was the problem? > >Cheers > >Geoff Roberts I'm almost embarassed to say, but since I think I already have :^) I apparently did a hatchet job on the TCPIP.RUN file when I edited it, so it was missing the final line 'assign eq3: en3:'. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Aug 23 04:55:54 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Anecdote: A friend years ago had such a relationship with a >scrapyard here in SoCal. One day a pice of choice military radio gear >appeared that my friend coveted. He brought the Dealer out into the >yard to do a little Dealing. Now, both of them knew that the radio >was worth about $250, and of course both knew that it had not cost >that much. Since the Dealer regarded my friend as a somewhat 'good' >customer, he said "Make me an offer." My smart-ass friend thought he >had the Surplus Business wired, and offered $25. The Dealer said >"Yeah, wait here.." and went off, ostensibly to get a handtruck. >When he returned, he also had a five-pound sledgehammer, and he >proceeded to beat the radio into crinkly little bits while friend >watched aghast. When he was done, the Dealer said "Sold!" My friend >at least had the class to buy the remains, and last I saw him, still >had it in a corner of his workshop in a box... just to remind him the >next time he set out insult someone's intelligence. Anybody that gets insulted in business over prices has no business being in business. I would not have paid $25 after the unit was trashed regardless of its value (ok, maybe if I thought I could really torque the guy off by convincing him I was still able to sell the remaining parts for like $500, since the damage didn't matter to what I "wanted". The latter after it was paid for and in my truck of course). Other fun choices would be to then offer him a buck (don't say a dollar, say a buck) for it, or make some low ball offers on stuff you didn't want that he would otherwise sell for a good price, and see if he smashes those too. I live in SoCal as well, and all the scrappers know each other all right, but only about a 1/3 get along well with each other, another 1/3 hate each other, and the rest have no emotion regarding business matters (ala the GodFather). Its a dog eat dog business, and the value added aspect is all knowledge of sources, customers, and product. The two most important bits are the names and phone numbers of the sources and customers. One of the biggest scams is the illegal aquisition of those contacts. Putting more of a fine point on my first paragraph, I'll make the distinction between a low offering price, and being rude or insulting. Never, ever go back to a scrapper and tell them what a huge profit X item brought you, unless you bought it elsewhere and never bought one from them (then it still is pretty dumb). Respect is more what I am thinking of than some notion of a fair price. These guys spend the whole day offering people 6 cents a pound for working laptops, which makes almost any offer I make to them fairly reasonable. How you make the offer, is maybe more important than the actual amount. I don't have much tolerance for tin gods that feel somehow superior because they haven't dumpster dived in a couple years. From steve.lubbers at barco.com Mon Aug 23 07:56:45 1999 From: steve.lubbers at barco.com (steve.lubbers@barco.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: BA-11 Power Supply Schematic/Repair Help Message-ID: I got a 4 dual slot qbus logic box. It's a little desktop unit. The power supply is not functioning. There are two connectors on the rear of the chassis. One goes to the processor reset, the second goes into the power supply. Is something required in the power supply connector to make things work, or do I have a blown supply? Does anyone have schematics for this supply? (The chassis is marked oba11-va) Steve From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 23 09:17:48 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: <199908221831.OAA13511@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990823091748.01081e00@vpwisfirewall> Seems to me that if someone wanted to assemble a nice nation-wide list of people with really old functional computers who might be willing to part with them for a price, you could hold a contest like the one that Dell conducted. If you want the genie to come out of the bottle, rub the lamp. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 23 09:14:14 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 In-Reply-To: <199908221434.KAA04910@mail.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990823091414.01158e10@vpwisfirewall> At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that >IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only >worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working >lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was >actually designed to do." I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's worth $250." It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course, the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller. - John P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Aug 23 07:23:16 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990823072316.22cffc1e@earthlink.net> Hi John, At 11:12 PM 8/22/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer.. >not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job. > Is this the one with 12AU7 (ECC82) twin triode amplifiers? (Or does the EC-1 use them also?) I might have some partial schematics... Cool. -Dave From thompson at athenet.net Mon Aug 23 11:09:11 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? In-Reply-To: <012701beed36$d4aa4ca0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: Often you will find the ethernet on a proprietary multifunction bridge card on the 2100. On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > I noticed my friends AlphaServer 2100 has the same card poking out the > back > > as one of the cards in my neatly sorted pile of old ethernet cards. The > > card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat > > LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? > From cdrmool at interlog.com Mon Aug 23 11:28:53 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Compaq 386 luggable (but just) Message-ID: <003601beed84$97e9cae0$480b14d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> Anyone able to direct me to a copy of the display driver and/or diagnostic setup disk(s) for this thing I just found ? Would be much appreciated. TIA colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C@xoommail.com From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Mon Aug 23 11:17:48 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: AT/370 and XT/370 In-Reply-To: <37A9DDD5.1D84CA52@digiweb.com> References: <199908051214.OAA15806@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: Verified. Looked them up on www.ibmlink.ibm.com . Found them in the withdrawl letters. Unfortunately, Timeline is currently out of stock. RATS -- which I had more time to keep up on the list. Jay Jaeger At 08:54 PM 8/5/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hans Franke wrote: >> >> > Just browsing through my browser bookmarks, as you do, I came across >> > this: >> >> > "IBM 370 option XT and AT emulation boards $25.00 " >> >> > at >> >> > >> >> > Are these the real thing? >> >> If anybody can veryfy this, I want one! > >Well I just talked with them. Sounds very much like it is the real >thing. "Two plug-in boards connected across the top. Part numbers are: >IBMXT1602509 and IBMAT6236115. No external connectors" > >At first they said that they had plenty in stock but then I was told >that that was not the case but that I could have one if I ordered one. >So I did! Don't know how many more they have.... > >If someone could verify the part numbers > >Regards > >_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- >Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue > > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Aug 23 11:49:56 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: New Document on Highgate's pdp-8 Web Site Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990823094956.00826bc0@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: The most recent addition to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 is the Small Computer Handbook, 1966 edition, sections 1 and 2. These were contributed by Doug Coward. You can reach Doug at the highgate web site. Further contributions of pdp-8 material welcome, Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Aug 23 12:03:53 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) Message-ID: <802567D6.005DFFA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >>"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that >>IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only >>worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working >>lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was >>actually designed to do." > > I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely > dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished > this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's > worth $250." > > It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course, > the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller. > > - John > > P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program > on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening > up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free > appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. We have a similar show in the UK, also called Antiques Roadshow. One of the few TV shows I actually enjoy watching. Alas I was away when it came to Coalville, so I couldn't take any classic computers to see how they reacted... I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of their comments though. Examples from when my parents caught it at their town (and got on TV!): 1. My mother took some WW2 propaganda posters. Was told they were almost worthless. Later on, an official came up to her and said they wanted to film the posters. So they went through the same rigmarole again. But on camera she was told they were worth at least 100 pounds (I can't remember whether each or for the set) 2. My parents also invited them to look at some antique furniture in situ. One writing desk they were particularly interested in, shipped it to the filming venue, etc. They pointed out all the things to look for, and claimed that the evidence proved it was original and had never been restored. My father forebore to say that it had come back from the restorer's workshop only 2 months earlier - and we'd all seen the state it was in before it went... (We think they must have lost a lot of footage that day. A lot of interesting things they filmed weren't shown, and they filled up time with pointless activities that had little bearing on the antiques...) Philip. From cdrmool at interlog.com Mon Aug 23 12:30:49 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) Message-ID: <000b01beed8d$3efa1120$480b14d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> I'm not suprised at the AR comments. My brother is a master craftsman. He restores antique furniture for a living and has done so for the Royal Ontario Museum. He has, on occasion, and for his own amusement, mad e copies of rare antique pieces and shown them to the experts, sometimes side by side with the originals. The experts are often wrong in chosing which is the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm very proud of him in that he is totally self taught and that he would never profit from the fakes. colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C@xoommail.com -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:08 PM Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) > > > >> At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> >>>"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that >>>IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only >>>worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working >>>lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was >>>actually designed to do." >> >> I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely >> dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished >> this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's >> worth $250." >> >> It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course, >> the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller. >> >> - John >> >> P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program >> on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening >> up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free >> appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. > > >We have a similar show in the UK, also called Antiques Roadshow. One of the few >TV shows I actually enjoy watching. Alas I was away when it came to Coalville, >so I couldn't take any classic computers to see how they reacted... > >I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of their comments though. Examples from >when my parents caught it at their town (and got on TV!): > >1. My mother took some WW2 propaganda posters. Was told they were almost >worthless. Later on, an official came up to her and said they wanted to film >the posters. So they went through the same rigmarole again. But on camera she >was told they were worth at least 100 pounds (I can't remember whether each or >for the set) > >2. My parents also invited them to look at some antique furniture in situ. One >writing desk they were particularly interested in, shipped it to the filming >venue, etc. They pointed out all the things to look for, and claimed that the >evidence proved it was original and had never been restored. My father forebore >to say that it had come back from the restorer's workshop only 2 months earlier >- and we'd all seen the state it was in before it went... > >(We think they must have lost a lot of footage that day. A lot of interesting >things they filmed weren't shown, and they filled up time with pointless >activities that had little bearing on the antiques...) > >Philip. > > > > > > > From bill at chipware.com Mon Aug 23 12:34:05 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990823091414.01158e10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <000001beed8d$b27646a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > >"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that > >IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only > >worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working > >lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was > >actually designed to do." > > I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely > dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished > this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's > worth $250." I thought that that was exactly what I was parodying. I guess I didn't make that clear. I generally enjoy Antiques Roadshow, but those particular spots really annoy me. In my opinion, the original craftsman (the maker of the piece) would probably drop over dead if presented with his work in "ideal collectable" condition. Either that or he would immediately attack it with sandpaper and mineral spirits. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 12:37:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <000b01beed8d$3efa1120$480b14d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm I predicted that would start happening by the end of this year. I hope I'm proved wrong. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 23 12:37:34 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: ________O/_______ O\ > Does anyone know where I could get GSX for the Rainbow? I got my 'bow > without a colour card, but I found such a card in a box of random PCBs. > Assuming I can get it working, and cabled up to my VR241 monitor (and I > know the cable is different to the Pro one), I'd still need the software > to drive it. Tony, I can e-mail you either a TeleDisk image of the GSX extensions disk or a zip file of the contents. I am not sure, but doubt that it needs to be a bootable disk. - don From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 23 12:38:33 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) Message-ID: <000801beed8e$54fda300$0101a8c0@fred> >I thought that that was exactly what I was parodying. I guess >I didn't make that clear. I generally enjoy Antiques Roadshow, >but those particular spots really annoy me. In my opinion, the >original craftsman (the maker of the piece) would probably drop >over dead if presented with his work in "ideal collectable" >condition. Either that or he would immediately attack it with >sandpaper and mineral spirits. In general, what is the meaning of an antique? In many cases, it is exactly something that is old. However in the case of a computer, I think that an exact copy is perfectly valid. We are trying to preserve computer history, and computer technology, not old plastic, after all. What should concern people (IMHO) is the particular arrangement of keys on the keyboard, or gates on a CPU, or whatever, i.e. functional characteristics. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Aug 23 12:40:24 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <000b01beed8d$3efa1120$480b14d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> from Colan Mitchell at "Aug 23, 1999 01:30:49 pm" Message-ID: <199908231740.RAA20016@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > I'm not suprised at the AR comments. My brother is a master craftsman. He > restores antique furniture for a living and has done so for the Royal > Ontario Museum. He has, on occasion, and for his own amusement, mad e > copies of rare antique pieces and shown them to the experts, sometimes side > by side with the originals. The experts are often wrong in chosing which is > the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm That would be this October, if you believe the scheduled shipping date for the new Imsai computers. -Lawrence LeMay From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 23 12:46:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) Message-ID: <990823134626.232000f4@trailing-edge.com> >That would be this October, if you believe the scheduled shipping date >for the new Imsai computers. "New-old" IMSAI boxes were shipped through the mid-80's under several different names (there were Cromemco-branded IMSAI's, in particular). So classifying them as "old" or "new" isn't necessarily the simplest thing in the world! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 12:50:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <000801beed8e$54fda300$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > In general, what is the meaning of an antique? In many cases, it is exactly > something that is old. However in the case of a computer, I think that an > exact copy is perfectly valid. We are trying to preserve computer history, > and computer technology, not old plastic, after all. What should concern > people (IMHO) is the particular arrangement of keys on the keyboard, or > gates on a CPU, or whatever, i.e. functional characteristics. Interesting point. From a logical standpoint, an emulator can be just as much the original machine as the original itself. However, I think the psychological impact of an "antique" is that it has passed through many hands before it arrived in yours, and the personal history that each individual machine possess is what is desired. It connects us to the past. Something peculiarly human. Also, humans are creatures that desire tangibility. We want to see the machine, feel it, look inside it, experience the sights and smells as it fires up, marvel at its elegance (or lack thereof), tinker with it in three dimensions, point it out to people as a source of pride. You can't do that with an emulator. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 23 12:53:18 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) Message-ID: <001701beed90$6409f400$0101a8c0@fred> >Interesting point. From a logical standpoint, an emulator can be just as >much the original machine as the original itself. However, I think the No, it can't, because the software might use a different algorithm for emulating than the machine actually used. And of course, the interface logic isn't emulated. What I mean is that if we wish to preserve machines for study, then a copy is acceptable. Of course, there is that human element to which you refer, but I'd rather have a copy than nothing at all. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 13:19:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <001701beed90$6409f400$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > isn't emulated. What I mean is that if we wish to preserve machines > for study, then a copy is acceptable. Of course, there is that human > element to which you refer, but I'd rather have a copy than nothing at > all. Well, actually it's not. A copy might not be made of the same materials that the original was made of. It might have different components because the originals may not be manufactured anymore. Minute details like the features of the case, or the layout of the PCBs may be inaccurate, or the wrong color, or the traces the wrong width. Etc. A while back there was a guy from the London Museum of Science (or whatever, sorry forgot the name) doing a lecture here in California. (I've forgotten a lot of the details but here is the basic gist). An interesting point he made was that there was a workbench that was used by a famous inventor. The workbench itself was unremarkable, but what they found in the workbench was very significant: traces of mercury. From this evidence they were able to surmise that a contributing factor to this inventor's death was mercury poisoning. Again, I'm sorry I don't have specific details as my memory sucks these ays. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 23 13:27:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:59 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, actually it's not. A copy might not be made of the same materials > that the original was made of. It might have different components because > the originals may not be manufactured anymore. Minute details like the > features of the case, or the layout of the PCBs may be inaccurate, or the > wrong color, or the traces the wrong width. Etc. I'm one of the few that could build a large number of old systems using parts on hand with correct date codes. Active scrounging back then. It's not had in most cases to copy something like an altair or imsai verbatum. Then again when I had to replace a 7451 in the FP of my 8F, the only ones I had predated the machine by a few years! That will no doubt make a few wonder... Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 12:44:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: BA-11 Power Supply Schematic/Repair Help In-Reply-To: from "steve.lubbers@barco.com" at Aug 23, 99 02:56:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 938 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/2a76ebc4/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 23 13:29:13 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) Message-ID: <002d01beed95$688e0340$0101a8c0@fred> >Well, actually it's not. A copy might not be made of the same materials >that the original was made of. It might have different components Well, then it's not really what I was thinking of as a copy. Again, minor variations are possible, but if it no longer works the same way (e.g. if it has a pentium running an emulator inside), of course I wouldn't accept it as a copy. What I'm trying to say is basically that copies are not really such awful things as you make them sound... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 13:41:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I had predated the machine by a few years! That will no doubt make a few > wonder... I don't think there's anything unusual about ICs in a machine pre-dating the machine itself. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 13:45:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <002d01beed95$688e0340$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > What I'm trying to say is basically that copies are not really such awful > things as you make them sound... I wasn't trying to make them sound awful. Just from a historic point of view, and a hardcore perservationist point of view, they would not be the same. Which would you prefer? A modern day clone of Stalin, or Stalin himself? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Aug 23 09:53:17 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Compaq 386 luggable (but just) In-Reply-To: <003601beed84$97e9cae0$480b14d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199908231858.OAA08820@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Aug 99 at 12:28, Colan Mitchell wrote: > Anyone able to direct me to a copy of the display driver and/or diagnostic > setup disk(s) for this thing I just found ? Would be much appreciated. > > TIA > colan Guess I could just phone you for this. :^) But for the edification of others Compaq has an some excellent pages at http://www.compaq.com/support/files/obsolete_diagnostics.html ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Aug 23 09:53:15 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <802567D6.005DFFA4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199908231858.OAA08858@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Aug 99 at 18:03, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > > > > At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> > >>"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that > >>IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only > >>worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working > >>lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was > >>actually designed to do." > > > > I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely > > dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished > > this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's > > worth $250." > > > > It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course, > > the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller. > > > > - John > > > > P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program > > on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening > > up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free > > appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. > > > We have a similar show in the UK, also called Antiques Roadshow. One of the few > TV shows I actually enjoy watching. Alas I was away when it came to Coalville, > so I couldn't take any classic computers to see how they reacted... > > I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of their comments though. Examples from > when my parents caught it at their town (and got on TV!): I've been watching the British Roadshow for years on Canadian TV. Actually, the American version is a spin-off because of it's wide popularity in the UK and IMHO not as good I may add. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 23 14:04:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I had predated the machine by a few years! That will no doubt make a few > > wonder... > > I don't think there's anything unusual about ICs in a machine pre-dating > the machine itself. Maybe, but the machine is '83 and the part is '70early... that would look odd to those that really know history. Those parts were not cheap back then to have on the shelf for years. I know as I paid $2.35 each for them in 1971(late)! Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 23 14:07:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) Message-ID: <001001beed9a$b15903e0$0400c0a8@winbook> What you've said here is EXACTLY the difference between "Antique Collectors" and various sorts of hobbyists. As was pointed out earlier, the IMSAI Front Panel, in its mint, therefore non working, condition is MUCH more desirable and hence valuable to the "collector" than the one, working perfectly with well-thought-out well-documented modifications to make it compatible with the environment for which it was purportedly intended. That means that the antique collector has different reasons for wanting, hence, obtaining and keeping, artifacts from the past. For Antique Computer afficionados, that means that those items which serve best, in this case, to "connect us to the past" by virtue of emulation, or by simple repair/modification in the interest of "making it work" are of little interest to the collector. He want the "real McCoy" as it was minted, not working and "alive" as it should have been. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Re. imsai 2 (OT) >On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >> In general, what is the meaning of an antique? In many cases, it is exactly >> something that is old. However in the case of a computer, I think that an >> exact copy is perfectly valid. We are trying to preserve computer history, >> and computer technology, not old plastic, after all. What should concern >> people (IMHO) is the particular arrangement of keys on the keyboard, or >> gates on a CPU, or whatever, i.e. functional characteristics. > >Interesting point. From a logical standpoint, an emulator can be just as >much the original machine as the original itself. However, I think the >psychological impact of an "antique" is that it has passed through many >hands before it arrived in yours, and the personal history that each >individual machine possess is what is desired. It connects us to the >past. Something peculiarly human. > >Also, humans are creatures that desire tangibility. We want to see the >machine, feel it, look inside it, experience the sights and smells as it >fires up, marvel at its elegance (or lack thereof), tinker with it in >three dimensions, point it out to people as a source of pride. You can't >do that with an emulator. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Aug 23 10:10:16 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: References: <002d01beed95$688e0340$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <199908231915.PAA15476@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Aug 99 at 11:45, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > What I'm trying to say is basically that copies are not really such awful > > things as you make them sound... > > I wasn't trying to make them sound awful. Just from a historic point of > view, and a hardcore perservationist point of view, they would not be the > same. > > Which would you prefer? A modern day clone of Stalin, or Stalin himself? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Ooooh, Ooooh, Sam ! You are too cruel. ROTFL. On another note I'll gladly take any copy of a Stutz-Bearcat or Dusenberg anyone wants to donate. I'll gladly pick it up to avoid shipping costs. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Aug 23 14:27:46 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Braille terminal In-Reply-To: <199908230511.WAA79017@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "Aug 22, 1999 10:11:15 pm" Message-ID: <199908231927.TAA20215@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > I put a few digital camera photos of a old braille terminal (Feb > > 1977 vintage) in a directory at http://www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/braille > > Thanks. I was kind of curious what the output side of the thing > looked like. I was expecting something like a fixed part-of-line > Braille display, but I guess paper would work better. What's it got, > a moving embossing head of some sort? Now that I've recharged my batteries, i've put two more photos in that directory, with closeup shots of the printing mechanism. No, there is no moving head which a blind person wouldnt be able to see moving. The 'paper' is very tough, almost identical to IBM punch cards. And as you see in the photo there are rows of holes, that have some sort of rod that pops up from behind to punch a raised round dot into the paper/cardboard sheets. I'm sot sure what will happen with this terminal. I hear we have to contact the Navy to see if they want it back, since it was originally purchased by them. After that, I guess its destined to be scrapped. Oh, does anyone know what these three chips are: 93419-DC F 8002 -------- ~/011 ~ should be double wavy lines MM5303N -------- sn74186N (three of these are on the board -Lawrence LeMay > > > I'm not quite sure what to do with this unit. There probably werent many > > braille terminals made in the 70's, and like most things, they probably > > were disposed of when they became obsolete. Maybe this should be donated > > to a computer museum. > > There were other widgets in the 1980s, I seem to remember a > description of a screen-scraper with Braille output that could be > fitted to an Apple ][. > > I guess they are obsolete. Until recently I was working with a blind > programmer/manager, and I was somewhere on her call-for-help list when > her PC misbehaved. When it wasn't misbehaving, she had screen-reader > software (something called JAWS from Henter-Joyce) that let her do > what she needed to do reasonably comfortably under WinNT. It worked > well enough for her to use Outlook and MS Word; I never saw her trying > to use a web browser so I don't know how well it worked with that. > > I'm trying to synch up with her for dinner, and if you like I'll try > to find out what she knows about this sort of thing. Don't know if > she's ever used one, though; she has talked about using what I > gathered were unmodified Silent 700s and I still haven't figured out > how that worked if/when she got unexpected output. > > -Frank McConnell > From dcoward at pressstart.com Mon Aug 23 14:59:06 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer info? Message-ID: <4.1.19990823115721.04f1ee00@199.108.34.2> John Lawson said" > I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer.. >not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job. > The docs that are with it are just the operaor's guide. I >therefore will begin a search for the assembly manual and possibly >any theory of operation manuals, circuit diagrams, program set-ups, etc. > I think these are not too plentiful, but I will perform due >diligence and see if Heath can be of any help. Many times they still >have old manuals around and will copy them (for a fee). > In the meantime, if anyone on The List has any info pertaining to >this computer, it would help me get it back on the air. John, I can't tell if this question has been answered since midnight, so I'll just recount my experience with Heathkit Analog Computer manuals. When you call the Heathkit Manual Replacement Service you need to have the model number of the kit you want a manual for. And the Heathkit Analog Computer, like some of their more complicated kits, is actually maded up of a number of different kits. Below I'll list the kits that I know of and a price if I have already purchased that assembly manual myself. ES-400 $25 Cabinet and Front Panel, 56 pages X ES-2 $25 Amplifier Power Supply, 24 pages X ES-50 $20 Reference Power Supply, 16 pages ES-100 $25 Initial Condition Power Supply, 12 pages X ES-151 $20 Relay Power Supply ES-201 $25 DC Amplifier, 16 pages ES-401 Voltage Regulator Transformer ES-405 Patch Cords, They don't have a manual for this. ES-447 Coefficient Potentiometer ES-450 Auxiliary Coefficient Potentiometer ES-505 Repetitive Oscillator ES-600 Function Generator, a stand alone accessary. I assume it is meant to generate functions like sine,cosine, and log. Again, the ones with prices I have. The ones without I have not checked on yet. And the ones with Xs, they had extra originals, so they sent me an original. They have lost their copy of the Operations Manual. I finally found a copy in Switerland. :) > Finally... a computer that glows in the dark... 2 K3WL D00DZ!!! I know how you feel :) On a separate analog computer type note, I made a real exciting find a few weeks back. The S.F. Bay Area guys have already heard this. ======== Paste from old mail ============== Last week I was thumbing through "High-Speed Computing Devices", Engineering Research Associates, McGraw-Hill, 1950. This is the book that describes the state-of-the-art in 1950 and it discusses most of the one of a kind computers up until then. (It also has a large section on analog computers). Anyway, I was looking through the references section at the end of the the chapter on analog computers, when I noticed that Vannevar Bush had published most of his early articles in the Journal of the Franklin Institute. So I decided to see what would come up if I did a BookFinders.com search for the Journal of the Franklin Institute. I found: Bush, Vannevar "THE DIFFERENTIAL ANALYZER. A NEW MACHINE FOR SOLVING DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS." Contained in the Journal of the Franklin Institute, Volume 212, No. 4, October,1931, pp. 447-88. The complete Volume 212, octavo, attractively rebound full navy morocco. US$1500.00 Too expensive!!!! According to the references, the first article by Bush in this journal was in 1927 Volume 203. "Bush,V., F.D. Gage, and H.R. Stewart, A Continuous Integraph, Journal of the Franklin Institute, Vol.203, pp.63-84 (1927)" This is 2 years after he started work on the Integraph and 3 years before the Product Integraph is credited as being operational. So then I found on BookFinders: MCCLENAHAN, HOWARD: JOURNAL OF THE FRANKLIN INSTITUTE DEVOTED TO SCIENCE AND THE MECHANIC ARTS ; PHILADELPHIA: THE INSTITUTE, 1927. G, XLIB VOL. 203 USD25.00 I took the chance that this was not just a single issue. And it's not!! It arrived today, a hard bound copy of Volume 203 Jan-June 1927. And the article has 6 pictures and some diagrams. ======== End paste ============== (Vannevar Bush is considered the father of the electronic analog computer) --Doug =================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr Software Engineer mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Visit the new Analog Computer Museum and History Center at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog =================================================== From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 13:42:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <199908231740.RAA20016@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Aug 23, 99 12:40:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/ac252676/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 13:47:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 23, 99 10:50:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/ae03b568/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 13:53:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 23, 99 11:19:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/ed1f5c64/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 15:04:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > But suppose you want to learn about some machine that there's no way you > could ever obtain (maybe there are none still existing, maybe the few > that do exist are far too expensive to consider owning, whatever). Making > an as perfect clone of it as you can (using the right chips, on PCBs as > near to the original layout as you can, etc) is still a useful thing to > do. Sure you'll get some small details wrong. But you can still learn a > lot about the design and operation of the machine from the copy. I agree. I was just pointing out for Max some reasons why a copy just isn't good enough for some people. > Whether it contributed to his death is another matter, but I don't see > how you could prove that from finding some in the woodwork of his bench. I think there was other evidence to suggest this, such as medical records of afflictions that could have been casued by mercury poisoning. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 15:08:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect the reason why fakes of old computers don't exist is that in almost > all cases it would cost more to make the fake than the machine is worth. > If custom silicon is involved, then there's no way of making a perfect > copy without a lot of cash/resources (yes, you could put the same > functionality into an FPGA or something, and the machine would work the > same way, but it would look totally different inside). Even when all the > parts are standard and available, it's not financially sensible to fake > an old machine. Well, an Apple-1 could be faked for a reasonably moderate amount of effort for a rather large return ($5K+). I know there are some parts no logner available, like (was it the) shift register? But still, enough searching in electronics surplus shops would eventually turn those parts up. A couple or three or four replicas could be produced and someone could end up with between $20K and $40K. > The exception may be for things like the Apple 1, which is fairly simple, > almost all standard (and easy-to-get) parts (the major problem being the > MOS shift registers in the video system), and which attracts a very high > price. I am suprised that nobody has started making reproductions (or > even fakes) of that machine. I really should read the entire message before I add my comment :) Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to re-produce (save for the 8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay market frenzy. The original PCB layouts are still available too. Same goes for a Scelbi. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From musicman38 at mindspring.com Mon Aug 23 15:23:24 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (musicman38@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: CP/M 86 Message-ID: <01ca01beeda5$5abd6160$b3358ad1@server> Interesting CP/M 86 for the old IBM on eBay.. I really wanted this but it has gone way past my budget. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=147842873 So I was wondering if anyone had a copy of it or knew where I could get a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC.. I will gladly send the disks, and a self addressed envelope if anyone could help.. Phil... From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Aug 23 15:21:41 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: CP/M 86 Message-ID: <01JF3YSN32QQ9R2KTU@cc.usu.edu> > So I was wondering if anyone had a copy of it or knew where I could get a > copy > of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC.. http://cpm.interfun.net/ Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From spc at armigeron.com Mon Aug 23 15:23:40 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 23, 99 07:47:32 pm Message-ID: <199908232023.QAA06975@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 959 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/3b92c9ac/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Mon Aug 23 15:38:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) Message-ID: <001101beeda7$676ef980$0101a8c0@fred> >Which would you prefer? A modern day clone of Stalin, or Stalin >himself? OK, enough with the communist shit. Bill Clinton is most certainly better than Stalin, BTW ;) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Aug 23 15:48:55 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <001101beeda7$676ef980$0101a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >Which would you prefer? A modern day clone of Stalin, or Stalin >himself? > > OK, enough with the communist shit. I love you, Max! ;) > Bill Clinton is most certainly better than Stalin, BTW ;) I guess. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 17:05:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 23, 99 01:08:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/093ddb09/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 17:10:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <199908232023.QAA06975@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 23, 99 04:23:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 512 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/31ddf48e/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Mon Aug 23 17:52:11 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 23, 99 11:10:40 pm Message-ID: <199908232252.SAA09976@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 926 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990823/e26bd30b/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Aug 23 19:08:19 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer info? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990823115721.04f1ee00@199.108.34.2> Message-ID: Doug Coward (et al): U Da MAN! I have found a phone number for a person in (414) who is supposed to do repairs/have parts for the Heath computer line, but I have been to busy to call him and see if he has Analog Parts. I will call Heath in the morning and get the docs ordered. What do you want for a copy of the Operations guide? The one I have coming (the owner forgot to pack it) may or may not be complete. My 'real world' use for this machine is to participate in the production of what might be termed "chaos music", and other sounds that could be produced when the output of the computer is applied to the inputs of an analog synthesiser. I'm still looking for a copy of 'Music IV' (Vercoe) for the PDP-11. (I have Csound running on more modern machines, but it ain't the same. Csound is the most modern version of Music IV re-written in C and ported to many platforms.) To those who asked for pictures.. as soon as I have time I will put up a few, as well as some print advertising for it and an article in a Popular Electronics I found describing it. Cheers John. PS: Whattya mean, no manual for the Patch Cords??? Sheeeesh... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 19:02:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <199908232252.SAA09976@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 23, 99 06:52:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1002 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990824/5e281a0f/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 23 19:16:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) Message-ID: <199908240016.UAA16043@world.std.com> < Then the high order half of X would be $FF. Not sure if thta happens on --- Tony Duell wrote: > > some recognizable names (D0, D1, FG, H-HI...) and at least one with a > > mysterous name (OP)... > > AFAIK, pin 16 on a standard floppy is the MOTOR ON signal... > Silly suggestion. Have you tried linking pin 16 on the drive to the drive > select line (pin 14 most likely). Leave the drive select wire connected > there as well. So that the motor goes on whenever the drive is selected. I have not tried jumpering any pins together among other reasons because on my Amiga schematics, pin 16 is driven by a discrete transistor rather than directly off of a Gary pin (custom chip used in Amiga floppy controller). > Alternatively, what about using whatever pin on the DB25 corresponds to pin > 10. That's what becomes pin 16 after the IBM-twist, and thus is the > motor-on signal for the second drive. That's probably the more likely > setup, actually. According to my records... 2 - chng 4 - inuse 1 6 - inuse 0 8 - index 10 - sel 0 12 - sel 1 14 - inuse 1 (yes, it's tied to pin 4 on the schematic) 16 - mtron 18 - dir 20 - step etc... Do I have this wrong? -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From hiyama at abit.co.jp Mon Aug 23 21:17:29 1999 From: hiyama at abit.co.jp (Takeo Hiyama) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: HELP for ML command Message-ID: <199908240214.LAA26816@ibmsv.abit.co.jp> Hi Dear Please advice for Mailing list usage to change the mail address. Thank you very much. Takeo From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 23 21:29:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 Message-ID: <199908240229.WAA08793@world.std.com> This is pinouts for most 5.25 and 3.5" floppies that have 1 or 4 selects (excluded most current 3.5" that use twist cable select). NC(speedsel in 1.2mb) < 2 - chng nc(hd load) < 4 - inuse 1 drive sel3 < 6 - inuse 0 < 8 - index <10 - sel 0 <12 - sel 1 drive sel2 <14 - inuse 1 (yes, it's tied to pin 4 on <16 - mtron <18 - dir <20 - step writedata 22 wrtgate 24 track00 26 write pro 28 head sel 32 disk change 34 From cureau at centuryinter.net Mon Aug 23 22:03:16 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) References: <199908240016.UAA16043@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37C20B74.480C3B46@centuryinter.net> > A few emulators like MYZ80 do infact support all the z80 ops faithfully > but thats an example of a well tested package and a stable set of opcodes. > The 6502(and cmos versions) are legions for odd and spotty opcodes off the > basic set. I know the 6800 family vary some as do the 6809. It's my > understanding it was years before the 68000 instruction set was stable. Just for the record, most of the Commodore 64 emulations out there support every last undocumented opcode of the 6510...probably because there are a few programs which depend on them. I just wish the VIC-II was as well documented...there are still a few tricks this chip can do that the emulators can't... > Emulators, useful, interesting but NOT the real thing. Agreed. Cheers, Chris From donm at cts.com Mon Aug 23 23:40:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: New toy Message-ID: Over the weekend, I acquired a new toy called an Intel Wildcard WC88. It consists of a card in 72 pin SIMM format - only taller - that contains a surface mount 8088 chip hiding under a glob of epoxy. Also carries an xtal, 640k memory, another - unidentified - chip under epoxy, a BIOS EPROM, and a few glue chips. The edge connector is 72 pin SIMM style. There is also a (basically) passive motherboard that carries a 72 pin SIMM socket, a keyboard connector, three 8-bit ISA sockets, and a handful of chips. The Award BIOS displays a message on bootup that 'this is a demonstration BIOS and is not to be sold'. I have searched the Web to no avail seeking any reference to this mini-XT. If anyone has one or has heard of one, or... I would certainly appreciate hearing from them. I have know idea what Intel intended when they put this thing together - for sale, demo, sales tool, ??? But I'd like to know. - don From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 24 00:45:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: IBM 7545 References: <199908231927.TAA20215@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <37C23166.36697781@rain.org> I just ran into an IBM Industrial Robot where the tags said "IBM 7545". Is anyone familiar with this thing? I am told it was meant to be interfaced to a 286 computer and the chips on one of the controllers had a date code of 1984. There is apparently at least one binder that came with the unit. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 24 00:50:45 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: New toy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990823225045.03511294@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:40 PM 08/23/1999 -0700, Don Maslin wrote: > >Over the weekend, I acquired a new toy called an Intel Wildcard WC88. It >consists of a card in 72 pin SIMM format - only taller - ... >...I have searched the Web to no avail seeking any reference to this mini-XT. >If anyone has one or has heard of one, or... I would certainly appreciate >hearing from them. I have know idea what Intel intended when they put >this thing together - for sale, demo, sales tool, ??? But I'd like to >know. Cool... someone else who has one! If you find out anything, please share the knowledge! I've got a couple of those things (cards only w/o the motherboard) flopping around here as well but have no information on them either. B^{ -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 24 07:27:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: HELP for ML command In-Reply-To: <199908240214.LAA26816@ibmsv.abit.co.jp> Message-ID: <199908241028.MAA24458@horus.mch.sni.de> Servus Takeo, hope this will help. domo arigato Hans ------------------------ The list's owners are dpeschel@u.washington.edu . You should contact them if there are any problems. Please do not send requests to this list; instead direct them to: listproc@u.washington.edu To get more information on how to use this service, please send the command HELP in a line by itself in a mail message to listproc@u.washington.edu. To signoff from the list, email to listproc@u.washington.edu with the following request: signoff CLASSICCMP or unsubscribe CLASSICCMP [The following is the "old" CLASSICCMP welcome message. Not all of it will be relevant. If you would like to reach the list owner, send email to "classiccmp-request@u.washington.edu"] Welcome to ClassicCmp! CLASSICCMP - The "Classic Computers" Discussion List NAQ (Never Asked Questions) 0.1 What is it? This list is for the discussion of Classic Computers - primarily for those people who collect and restore old machines. It is brand new - no subscribers yet so sign up. The collection and restoration of computers is becoming a big enough hobby that I felt a need for a place to talk about it. What is a classic computer? Well that's hard to say but since I created the list I'll do it anyway. A classic computer is a machine that has not been produced for 10 years or more. It's an arbitrary definition but at least uncomplicated. What are the guidelines? The list is designed for discussion of collecting, restoring, and maintaining old computers. I'm not going to be heavy handed with restricting discussion. I'd just like it to be clear that the list is not the proper place for discussion of technical problems with the standard PCs and Macs (other than the really old stuff). Anyone can lurk - if you're going to post, just use your own good judgement. This IS NOT and will NEVER BE a list for discussion of "which computer is best?" and anyone who posts the ubiquitous "why don't you just go buy a PC you moron" will be immediately unsubbed. Beyond this - have fun! That what keeps us going with these old machines. How do I subscribe? Subscribing to this list is slightly more challenging than most. Read the instructions below. 1. Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with the line subscribe CLASSICCMP your-address in the body of the message. 2. Send a message to bill@booster.u.washington.edu introducing yourself and explaining why you wish to be added to the list. That's it. I require the letter of introduction for several reasons. 1 - Only people who really want to be on the list will bother. 2 - If you can't follow directions I won't hear from you. 3 - It helps me get an idea of who's on the list and what they hope to get out of it. 4 - I like to respond personally to new members rather than run a robot list. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 24 07:36:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: HELP for ML command(aaargh) In-Reply-To: <199908241028.MAA24458@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <199908240214.LAA26816@ibmsv.abit.co.jp> Message-ID: <199908241037.MAA24912@horus.mch.sni.de> stupid me one - this should have been a PM. sorry. H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 24 07:27:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: New toy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Look under industrial systems or controllers. A number of vendors made compactly packaged xt and later class machines in oddball or ISA passive packages(or boards). Allison On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > Over the weekend, I acquired a new toy called an Intel Wildcard WC88. It > consists of a card in 72 pin SIMM format - only taller - that contains a > surface mount 8088 chip hiding under a glob of epoxy. Also carries an > xtal, 640k memory, another - unidentified - chip under epoxy, a BIOS > EPROM, and a few glue chips. The edge connector is 72 pin SIMM style. > There is also a (basically) passive motherboard that carries a 72 pin SIMM > socket, a keyboard connector, three 8-bit ISA sockets, and a handful of > chips. The Award BIOS displays a message on bootup that 'this is a > demonstration BIOS and is not to be sold'. > > I have searched the Web to no avail seeking any reference to this mini-XT. > If anyone has one or has heard of one, or... I would certainly appreciate > hearing from them. I have know idea what Intel intended when they put > this thing together - for sale, demo, sales tool, ??? But I'd like to > know. > - don > > > From mranalog at home.com Tue Aug 24 11:03:16 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: New Document on Highgate's pdp-8 Web Site Message-ID: <37C2C244.6D583B5A@home.com> Kevin McQuiggin said: > Hi Gang: > The most recent addition to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 is the Small > Computer Handbook, 1966 edition, sections 1 and 2. > These were contributed by Doug Coward. You can reach Doug at the highgate > web site. > Further contributions of pdp-8 material welcome, I just wanted to add: Thank you Kevin, for taking this material under your wing. And to everyone else, this DEC handbook states the following on the rear cover: "This first edition of the DIGITAL Small Computer Handbook is designed to be a sourcebook of basic computer technology for the computer user and student. In addition to detailed material on computer fundamentals and programming examples, this book includes three user handbooks covering Digital's popular Family of Eight scientific/engineering computers - the PDP-8, LINC-8, and the new PDP-8/s." "sections 1 and 2" consist of the "computer fundamentals" section and the PDP-8/s section. Currently this is a 69MB file of 300 dpi scans. This is the first time that I have scanned any documents of this size for anyone besides myself, and I'm hoping to find out if these scans are convertable to a more manageable format or if I need to make some adjustments, before begining on the last two sections (PDP-8 and LINC-8) which make up 2/3 of the handbook. And in the process, I want to learn the process of converting scans to a smaller format (without starting an argument) because I also have about 590 pages of COSMAC/ELF docs scanned and ready to convert in addition to a few other that are in progress. Maybe one of these days I'll even get around to scanning some analog computer docs. :) Regards, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 24 14:35:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: <19990822.122638.46.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <199908241736.TAA15830@horus.mch.sni.de> > >The other troublesome comment was about the recyclers: "That's pretty > >much what my local scrapper does . [tomb raiding for gold]. . .". Now > these > Yeah, that's what I said, and it's based on my experiences with a local > party. I bring him a pile of stuff culled from his various heaps, > and the question is "Let's how much gold you got there". > I made this statement because it parallels the 'treasure hunter' > mentality > towards archeological digs during the early part of the last century. > "How much gold we got?". Alot of history got melted as a result. Well, archeology was, and still _is_ about value, and I'm not talking about anything beside money. Just look at your news. If theres a stupid pile of roman silver, it's top news and it gets a lot of attention. The historic value is zero, but it's silver - on the other side, it needs a earth shaking discovery (like the Keltic statue two years ago) just to have a few lines... Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mark_k at iname.com Tue Aug 24 13:34:58 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers Message-ID: Hi, Is there a web site that, on entry of an IBM part number, returns what that thing is? I picked up an old (made in early '89 from date codes on the chips) IBM 8-bit ISA card the other day. It's half-length, and the only connector on the rear panel is a BNC. There are no jumpers on the card. Part number is 25F8545. Searching for the part number on the IBM web site didn't turn up anything. On Dejanews, one posting mentioned that part number. This card might be a "3270 emulator" apparently. Can anyone shed more light on this? What exactly is it? -- Mark From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 24 16:06:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: References: <199908231740.RAA20016@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Aug 23, 99 12:40:24 pm Message-ID: <199908241907.VAA18053@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm > > That would be this October, if you believe the scheduled shipping date > > for the new Imsai computers. > To me, a reproduction is not necessarily a fake. A fake is a reproduction > that's being passed off as the original. > The Imsai-II is a (partial) reproduction of an old machine, and I see no > problem with that. In fact the PSU differences (which I am not altogether > happy with for technical reasons mean that it couldn't be mistaken for > the original IMHO. Well, it can. Not everybody is a Tony Duell. Serious, If the details are of the minor and less visible kind, they _will_ be mistaken. Shure, not right out of the shop, but just think about flea markets/swap meets. Maybe not even ment as a fraud - if these machines are build, their life doesn't end with the sale (like some sales people may think :). Years later a possible (re)seller maybe realy don't know the difference. Example: There's a long running SF book over here "Perry Rhodan" (AFAIR the first 100 have also been published in the US around 1970). Actual issue is number 1984 (no, thats not the year, the series is running weekly since 1961). Sometimes in the past, they offered a special bundle with a reprint of #1 (I think it was to celebrate #1500). Now this issue was an exact reprint of #1 - just on the last page, the publishers name and the date of printing, both in very small font, has been updated (I also belive the cover had a wrong colour, I have a #1 that has been untouched in a closed box since 38 years). Now, the original #1 is woth some 400 to 600 USD (mint), while the reprint is just USD 4,-. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 24 16:06:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 23, 99 01:08:22 pm Message-ID: <199908241907.VAA18050@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to re-produce (save for the > > 8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay > I hesitate to mention this, but a very common place to find 8008s is on > the KY11-B frontpanel control board for the PDP11/34. And that machine is > not exactly rare or expensive (yet). > I am not suggesting the responsible enthusiasts will raid such machine > for the chip, but... Well, if microprocessors are the area of interest, an 11/34 is just scrap metall (please, don't hurt me :) H. (In fact, I belive an 8008 will be still more valuable than a PDP 11/34, no matter how rare they will be in the future) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 12:59:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: <199908240157.VAA11126@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 23, 99 09:57:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990824/29182210/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 13:14:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 In-Reply-To: <19990824020006.24241.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 23, 99 07:00:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990824/d4eb5cd9/attachment.ksh From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Aug 24 15:25:33 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:00 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer info? Message-ID: <4.1.19990824121503.04f297e0@199.108.34.2> Dave Dameron said: >Is this the one with 12AU7 (ECC82) twin triode amplifiers? (Or does the >EC-1 use them also?) I might have some partial schematics... >Cool. >-Dave In the manual I have each amplifier has a 12AX7 and a 6BQ7A twin triode plus a 6BH6. > What do you want for a copy of the Operations guide? The one I >have coming (the owner forgot to pack it) may or may not be complete. I'm sure we can work something out. I've being searching for a first born child (boy or girl) for a completely unrelated hobby. OR you could just keep me up to date on your music experiments. Keep in mind that this Operations Manual has theory but no example programs. It's the EC-1 Operations Manual that has the example programs. A good source for magazine articles on analog computers is the American Journal of Physics. Including one article on replacing the Heath ES-201 amplifiers with 741 op-amps. They have a searchable index on the web. And I found the issues at the S.F. Public Library (other libraries may differ). Other magazine called "Simulation" in their Febuary 1997 issue had an article on simulating an analog computer in Excel. Which looks like a great way to "single step" your program before moving to the computer. (See Windows does have a use) :) > My 'real world' use for this machine is to participate in the >production of what might be termed "chaos music", and other sounds >that could be produced when the output of the computer is applied to >the inputs of an analog synthesiser. Speaking of computer music generated by old machines, if you don't already have a copy, I recommend "Music by Computer", John Wiley and Sons, 1969, 139 pages. This book was started from papers submitted to the "Computers in Music" session at the 1966 Fall Joint Computer Conference in San Francisco. In a pocket in the back cover is four 7" floppy records with a total of 8 sides, containing examples of computer generated music and sounds samples to accompany each paper. > To those who asked for pictures.. as soon as I have time I will >put up a few, as well as some print advertising for it and an >article in a Popular Electronics I found describing it. I don't think I've seen this article. (hint) :) Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 24 15:58:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Re. imsai 2 (OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > and the vendors would make sure they were there. > > This is fine if you're a large company and can specify the 'undocumented' > behaviour of a chip. For a one-off hacker like me, it's a little more > dangerous. You werent reading. Also you missed that due to popular request for 8085 and z80 it's pretty much if they aint there it must not be a 8085 or z80! They are defacto supported as a result and a hobbiest can rely on their presence. > AFAIK, all Z80s did the same thing with undocumented opcodes, and it was > safe to rely on them. But I've met devices (not CPUs specifically) where > later/second-source versions have had different behaviour under > 'undocumented' conditions, so I learnt the hard way to be careful. My reference for 8085 and z80 is however limited to them but, for all vendors of those parts (and versions thereof) that I know of it's true. Timing differnces are more common. allison From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 24 17:18:37 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: New toy In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990823225045.03511294@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, James Willing wrote: > At 09:40 PM 08/23/1999 -0700, Don Maslin wrote: > > > >Over the weekend, I acquired a new toy called an Intel Wildcard WC88. It > >consists of a card in 72 pin SIMM format - only taller - ... > >...I have searched the Web to no avail seeking any reference to this mini-XT. > >If anyone has one or has heard of one, or... I would certainly appreciate > >hearing from them. I have know idea what Intel intended when they put > >this thing together - for sale, demo, sales tool, ??? But I'd like to > >know. > > Cool... someone else who has one! If you find out anything, please share > the knowledge! I've got a couple of those things (cards only w/o the > motherboard) flopping around here as well but have no information on them > either. B^{ I certainly will, Jim, since the pinout of the card is certainly needed and I doubt that it is standard SIMM! - don From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Aug 24 17:20:02 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: 2 FREE DEC Rainbow 100+'s in UK (forwarded) Message-ID: <37C31A91.65341FEE@bigfoot.com> Found this on the Obsolete Computer Helpline....contact the author below in the UK, not me. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee davison Ludlow, Shropshire UK - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 17:21:38 FREE! Two (at least) DEC Rainbow 100+ machines, keyboards, mono monitors and any other DEC bits I have. AFAIK they both still work and have 10MB hard drives in them. The lucky recipient of these must either collect them or pay shipping. I'll keep them until the end of the month but after that they are scrap. They are heavy and fairly big and I need the room. Cheers, Lee. From Tony.Eros at machm.org Tue Aug 24 17:42:41 1999 From: Tony.Eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project (and a question or two) References: Message-ID: <000401beee81$ff3fb670$212e2818@newcas1.de.home.com> I just received a 5110 (BASIC-only, no tape drive) with serial number 30163. I've got a couple of quick questions for the experts. First off, I think I may be getting an error on startup. When I power the system up, the display shows AACCEEGG on the top line. After five seconds, AACCEEGGJJLLNN RRSS44 is displayed on the top two lines. One second later, AACCEEGGJJLLNN RRSS11 is displayed on the top two lines. After three seconds, the top two lines are erased and LLAA00 _ _ (two flashing underscores) EEDD is displayed on the last three lines of the display. Actually, when the display switch is set to "64", the above strings appear on both the left side and center of the screen. Is this some sort of error display? Does anyone have any sort of error summary for the 5110? The "Process Check" light remains dark. Hitting the keys produces no result. Second question: what's the BNC connector on the back of the system for? I read somewhere that the 5110 and 5120 had composite video output, but I'm not sure. -- Tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 24 18:39:31 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) References: Message-ID: <99082419420002.10642@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to re-produce (save for the >8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay >market frenzy. The original PCB layouts are still available too. Same >goes for a Scelbi. Hmm...can you send a pointer to this stuff? I have a small stash of 8008s and I'd love to build a Scelbi clone. -Dave McGuire From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Tue Aug 24 19:16:43 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908250024.TAA13225@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> One thing you can try is www.ibmlink.ibm.com. Search for an announcement letter with the part number. (See the "Old Letters" link). In this case, I already have, but got no hits. Does the board have an FRU number? Usually IBM boards had several numbers -- try them all. Jay At 06:34 PM 8/24/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, > >Is there a web site that, on entry of an IBM part number, returns what that >thing is? > >I picked up an old (made in early '89 from date codes on the chips) IBM 8-bit >ISA card the other day. It's half-length, and the only connector on the rear >panel is a BNC. There are no jumpers on the card. Part number is 25F8545. > >Searching for the part number on the IBM web site didn't turn up anything. On >Dejanews, one posting mentioned that part number. This card might be a "3270 >emulator" apparently. > >Can anyone shed more light on this? What exactly is it? > > >-- Mark > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 19:04:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project (and a question or two) In-Reply-To: <000401beee81$ff3fb670$212e2818@newcas1.de.home.com> from "Tony Eros" at Aug 24, 99 06:42:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990825/9703fabf/attachment.ksh From rcini at msn.com Tue Aug 24 18:54:18 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: To be posted shortly - BIOS source code Message-ID: <00a301beee93$f5ee7040$e992fea9@office1> Hello, all: I just finished two projects for the PeeCee. I've finished scanning and correcting the source code for the original IBM PC and IBM PC/AT. Right out of the Tech Ref books. I haven't tried to re-compile the BIOS, but I'm reasonably certain that the files are free of spelling errors, having taken me months of on-and-off line by line editing. These will be posted to the secure portion of the site since IBM's wallet is much bigger than mine :-) These will be posted in the next day or so (since I left my Zip disk at work). I'm also going to post a copy of the VIC-20 Kernal ROM source code, as decompiled by yours truly, and as featured in a series of articles in the C=Hacking e-zine. This one recompiles fine. Enjoy. ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 24 19:57:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2) In-Reply-To: <99082419420002.10642@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to re-produce (save for the > >8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay > >market frenzy. The original PCB layouts are still available too. Same > >goes for a Scelbi. > > Hmm...can you send a pointer to this stuff? I have a small stash of 8008s and > I'd love to build a Scelbi clone. I don't know where you'd find any information on the Scelbi on the web. I know the issue of Radio Electronics where the Mark-8 first appeard as a kit was July 1974. Here's a great site Andrew Davies did on the Mark-8 after some e-mail interviews with Jon Titus. http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/mark8b.html Jon Titus, creator of the Mark-8, will be speaking at VCF 3.0, so maybe you can get more resources from him (he's since donated all his original stuff to the Smithsonian, and I don't think he has the original PCB masks anymore). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Aug 24 20:02:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: To be posted shortly - BIOS source code In-Reply-To: <00a301beee93$f5ee7040$e992fea9@office1> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I just finished two projects for the PeeCee. I've finished scanning and > correcting the source code for the original IBM PC and IBM PC/AT. Right out > of the Tech Ref books. I haven't tried to re-compile the BIOS, but I'm > reasonably certain that the files are free of spelling errors, having taken > me months of on-and-off line by line editing. > > These will be posted to the secure portion of the site since IBM's > wallet is much bigger than mine :-) > > These will be posted in the next day or so (since I left my Zip disk at > work). > > I'm also going to post a copy of the VIC-20 Kernal ROM source code, as > decompiled by yours truly, and as featured in a series of articles in the > C=Hacking e-zine. This one recompiles fine. Thanks, Rich! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From ss at allegro.com Tue Aug 24 20:13:44 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project (and a question or two) In-Reply-To: <000401beee81$ff3fb670$212e2818@newcas1.de.home.com> Message-ID: <199908250113.SAA27782@bart.allegro.com> Re: > I just received a 5110 (BASIC-only, no tape drive) with serial number 30163. > > I've got a couple of quick questions for the experts. > > First off, I think I may be getting an error on startup. When I power the > system up, the display shows > > AACCEEGG When I do a "reset" on mine, I see "ABCDEFG" at the top left of the CRT. > on the top line. After five seconds, > AACCEEGGJJLLNN > RRSS44 shortly after the "ABCDEFG", "ROS 01" appears, which gets replaced by "ROS 02", ..., "ROS 09", "ROS 0a", ... (not sure about the leading 0, but it appears to be a ROM selftest, counting up in hex). > is displayed on the top two lines. After three seconds, the top two lines > are erased and > > LLAA00 > _ _ (two flashing underscores) > EEDD Mine says "LOAD0", then "__" (I think), then " READY" (with some leading blanks) BTW, "Inverse" switch is pressed towards top of case (so I get white on black background), the L32/64/R32 switch is in the middle (64) position (which means: display 64 chars per line) > Actually, when the display switch is set to "64", the above strings appear > on both the left side and center of the screen. Aha...sounds like a video problem. What shows for L32 switch position? (You should see: L O A D 0 and " R E A D Y" (note the blank between each character!) Stan From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 20:58:02 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 Message-ID: <19990825015802.3879.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > Silly suggestion. Have you tried linking pin 16 on the drive to the drive > > > select line (pin 14 most likely). Leave the drive select wire connected > > > there as well. So that the motor goes on whenever the drive is selected. Based on the depth of the ongoing discussion, I gave this a try. I works! > In any case, blowing a transistor is a lot less of a problem than blowing > a custom chip. The transistor is on the Amiga (which I was using for schematic examples); this drive is going on bizzaro PC device. > I've forgotten what you're trying to do, but what happens if you just > match up signal names as above? I'm trying to make a cable to hook up floppy drive to a proprietary DB-25 external connector on a sealed PeeCeeoid. Thanks for the help! -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 24 21:20:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx Message-ID: <199908250220.WAA10330@world.std.com> Anyone out there with suggestion or clues on this oddball? Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. Interesting 8088 non-isa monoboard with what appears to be mono video and integral keyboard. The PS is very small, less that 55W and the MB is mostly cmos save for the cpu and support chips. I'm trying to decide if I'll gut it for the powersupply and floppy or find a use for it. One limiting factor is it down't appear to have a serial port. If I can find a schematic I may try a hack I've considered. Putting a 8085+mmu in the 8088 socket (it's been done going the other way!) and changing the rom so I can run cpm-80. First chance I'll drop by Tandy... knowing them they may have the service manual for it. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Aug 24 21:41:04 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx Message-ID: In a message dated 8/24/99 10:23:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > Anyone out there with suggestion or clues on this oddball? > > Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. > > Interesting 8088 non-isa monoboard with what appears to be mono video > and integral keyboard. The PS is very small, less that 55W and the MB > is mostly cmos save for the cpu and support chips. > > I'm trying to decide if I'll gut it for the powersupply and floppy or > find a use for it. One limiting factor is it down't appear to have a > serial port. > > If I can find a schematic I may try a hack I've considered. Putting a > 8085+mmu in the 8088 socket (it's been done going the other way!) and > changing the rom so I can run cpm-80. > > First chance I'll drop by Tandy... knowing them they may have the service > manual for it. > > Allison that is that small apple //c looking pc clone? has dos2.1 in rom IIRC, and a bit nonstandard card slot(s). i think the 1000ex was similar... D.B. Young Team OS/2 -->this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 24 21:58:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx Message-ID: <199908250258.WAA00695@world.std.com> I have this card made by "Memory Products and More". It's 8Mb, *looks* like a PCMCIA card but says on the back, "Do not insert this card into the PCMCIA card slot." It has 88 pins. Does anyone know what this might go into? Thanks, -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From gram at cnct.com Tue Aug 24 22:28:01 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx In-Reply-To: <199908250220.WAA10330@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. > > Interesting 8088 non-isa monoboard with what appears to be mono video > and integral keyboard. The PS is very small, less that 55W and the MB > is mostly cmos save for the cpu and support chips. Aimed at the kid home and school market, its expansion is by Tandy's "Plus" card bus and the cards are not common anymore. It's a CGA with the PCjr added modes, sound is also PCjr style. There should be a headphone jack somewhere on the beast, and I'm not talking Walkman style headphones. > I'm trying to decide if I'll gut it for the powersupply and floppy or > find a use for it. One limiting factor is it down't appear to have a > serial port. That was an option on a PlusCard. IIRC, one of the PlusCards that also took memory to 640k. > If I can find a schematic I may try a hack I've considered. Putting a > 8085+mmu in the 8088 socket (it's been done going the other way!) and > changing the rom so I can run cpm-80. > > First chance I'll drop by Tandy... knowing them they may have the service > manual for it. Special order from National Parts (or whatever they call it these days) it'll be part number MS2501053. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Aug 24 22:28:15 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Help me identify this mysterious RAM card Message-ID: In a message dated 8/24/99 11:04:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ethan_dicks@yahoo.com writes: > I have this card made by "Memory Products and More". It's 8Mb, *looks* > like a PCMCIA card but says on the back, "Do not insert this card into > the PCMCIA card slot." It has 88 pins. Does anyone know what this might > go into? > > Thanks, that's most likely an ICDRAM card; some of the 360 and 75x series IBM thinkpads used those for memory expansion and some other mobile products as well. certainly not classic though. D.B. Young Team OS/2 -->this message printed on recycled disk space visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Aug 24 23:39:19 1999 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >> Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. >> >that is that small apple //c looking pc clone? has dos2.1 in rom IIRC, and a >bit nonstandard card slot(s). i think the 1000ex was similar... The 1000EX had a 5 1/4" FDD and 128k RAM. The HX had a 3.5" FDD and 256K RAM. They both had Herc mono and Tandy (PCjr) Color (CGA resolution in 16 colors). I'll confirm the 'I think's' I saw in some other messages. There is no serial port on board... it was a 'plus' option. The ram expansion was also by a 'plus' option. (I seem to recall the expansion card had 128K of RAM on it, and you could buy an additional kit to add another 256K for the maximum 640K. Maybe it was the other way around.) BTW, I was told, but never confirmed for myself, that the 'plus' expansion bus was simply an ISA bus with a different connector. There was an ISA to Plus adaptor available (It let you use plus cards in your PC, not the other way around which would probably have been more useful, were it not for the cramped conditions of the expansion bay in the EX and HX.) The one interesting thing about the plus cards, is how they stack. There is only one connector in the HX or EX, but each plus card would accept another plus card on top of it. (They lay horizontally) IIRC, there was room to stack three cards in the HX. I remember selling an HX and feeling somewhat guilty about it, but that's another story for another time. ttyl srw p.s. I just looked it up, the memory expansion was available in two configurations. 25-1062 had 128K on board, 25-2062 had 512K on board and came with software to use the extra 128K (above 640K) as a ramdisk. 25-1079 was eight 256K x 1 DRAMS to expand the 25-1062 to 384K. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Aug 24 20:49:57 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199908250555.BAA09468@smtp.interlog.com> On 24 Aug 99 at 18:34, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > Is there a web site that, on entry of an IBM part number, returns what that > thing is? > > I picked up an old (made in early '89 from date codes on the chips) IBM 8-bit > ISA card the other day. It's half-length, and the only connector on the rear > panel is a BNC. There are no jumpers on the card. Part number is 25F8545. > > Searching for the part number on the IBM web site didn't turn up anything. On > Dejanews, one posting mentioned that part number. This card might be a "3270 > emulator" apparently. > > Can anyone shed more light on this? What exactly is it? > > > -- Mark > There was just a thread on the problem of identifying IBM card by the FRU # on the PS2 newsgroup. Apparently there are tens of thousands of FRU issues, each of which had it's own # even when the FRU in question only had minor variations. If the function is known the FRU can serve to identify it further if someone else has the card. Sort of a catch 22. You might check out the thread for identification solutions. If it was an MCA card Peter Wendts program can identify most of them when in the machine. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Aug 24 20:49:59 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx In-Reply-To: <199908250220.WAA10330@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199908250555.BAA09478@smtp.interlog.com> On 24 Aug 99 at 22:20, Allison J Parent wrote: > Anyone out there with suggestion or clues on this oddball? > > Tandy 25-1053 1000HX PC. > > Interesting 8088 non-isa monoboard with what appears to be mono video > and integral keyboard. The PS is very small, less that 55W and the MB > is mostly cmos save for the cpu and support chips. > > I'm trying to decide if I'll gut it for the powersupply and floppy or > find a use for it. One limiting factor is it down't appear to have a > serial port. > > If I can find a schematic I may try a hack I've considered. Putting a > 8085+mmu in the 8088 socket (it's been done going the other way!) and > changing the rom so I can run cpm-80. > > First chance I'll drop by Tandy... knowing them they may have the service > manual for it. > > Allison > Tandy is quite good and you might also check out TV Dogs Tandy1000 page at http://www.oldskool.org/~tvdog/ ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 25 07:12:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: new toy tandy 1000hx In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > with the PCjr added modes, sound is also PCjr style. There should be > a headphone jack somewhere on the beast, and I'm not talking Walkman > style headphones. found it. I also have deskmate disk with mine. > Special order from National Parts (or whatever they call it these days) > it'll be part number MS2501053. Thanks for the number. Allison From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Aug 25 08:12:28 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Strange drive unit Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990825091228.007ad440@mail.wincom.net> I found this in one of my cupboards, don't know where or when I got it. Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas Model SD-2 Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically Built in AC supply Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. Can any one enlighten me? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From KFergason at aol.com Wed Aug 25 08:19:02 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Strange drive unit Message-ID: <55749b1e.24f54746@aol.com> Sounds like a MSD-2 Dual floppy for Commodores. pretty cool. relatively rare. 1541 compatible, but the copy-protected stuff wouldn't work on them. I think Fast Hack-em had a SD-2 copier, could copy a non-protected disk pretty quick. Kelly In a message dated 8/25/99 8:13:18 AM Central Daylight Time, foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > I found this in one of my cupboards, don't know where or when I got it. > > Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas > > Model SD-2 > > Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically > > Built in AC supply > > Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female > connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. > > The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, > although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. > > Can any one enlighten me? > > Regards > Charlie Fox > From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Aug 25 08:13:54 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) Message-ID: <802567D8.00494B47.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Well, archeology was, and still _is_ about value, and I'm not > talking about anything beside money. Just look at your news. > If theres a stupid pile of roman silver, it's top news and > it gets a lot of attention. The historic value is zero, but > it's silver - on the other side, it needs a earth shaking > discovery (like the Keltic statue two years ago) just to > have a few lines... Non sequitur, I think. I agree that the news coverage bears this out well, but I don't agree that this is the opinion of _any_ serious archaeologist, amateur or professional, of my acquaintance. I think that news coverage is about money. The money mentality that pervades so much of our society means that the newspapers measure the importance of _anything_ they don't actually understand by the amount of money involved. Money is as relevant to archaeologists as it is to the rest of us, but I don't think it is the main driver for most, or even many, of the people who do significant work in this field. Philip. PS I don't recall hearing about this Celtic statue - can you point me to more detail? From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Aug 25 08:24:59 1999 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Strange drive unit Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0346B49D@UMKC-MAIL02> That is an MSD SD-2 dual drive. It was sold as a premium drive for the Commodore 64, and supports either serial or IEEE-488 interfaces. It would work with a PET, as well, via the IEEE-488 interface. One of its compelling features is its ability to copy a diskette completely in its firmware with one command, and quickly. If you would like to sell it, I would be interested :>. Nice find! --Michael Passer mwp@acm.org -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Charles E. Fox Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:12 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Strange drive unit I found this in one of my cupboards, don't know where or when I got it. Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas Model SD-2 Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically Built in AC supply Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. Can any one enlighten me? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From cureau at centuryinter.net Wed Aug 25 08:33:59 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Strange drive unit References: <3.0.5.32.19990825091228.007ad440@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <37C3F0C7.2944EEB0@centuryinter.net> > Micro-systems development Inc. Dallas Texas > > Model SD-2 > > Two TEC 51/4 floppy drives, Model FB501, mounted vertically > > Built in AC supply > > Rear panel has two 6 contact female DIN sockets and one 24 contact female > connection similar to a Centronics printer, only smaller. > > The construction is generally similar to that used on Apple ][ drive cases, > although I suspect this might have something to do with a PET. This sounds very much like the drives I have at home on my Commodore 64...if it's in a cream colored case, then I would suspect that is exactly what it is. It is supposed to be faster than the stock 1541 drive, but it is not very compatible with copy protection at all... I'll check the model and manufacturer when I get home and let you know for sure. There were at least two other manufacturers of Commodore drives besides Commodore itself, but memory fails me at the moment...none of them were 100% compatible, and as such left the market rather early on in the game. Cheers, Chris From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed Aug 25 08:54:39 1999 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Strange drive unit Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0346B4A0@UMKC-MAIL02> Chris, Another drive made for the C-64 was the Indus GT drive (more well known among Atari 8-bit users). It's cool looking-- all black with a smoked plexiglass cover and two 7 segment LED's showing what track the drive was using or the most recent error code. And another was something like the "Excelerator Pro", which has a cheap look and feel to it, though it may well be an OK drive. --Michael Passer mwp@acm.org >There were at least two other manufacturers of Commodore drives besides Commodore >itself, but memory fails me at the moment...none of them were 100% compatible, and as >such left the market rather early on in the game. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Aug 25 11:01:43 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet) In-Reply-To: <802567D8.00494B47.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199908251402.QAA01710@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Well, archeology was, and still _is_ about value, and I'm not > > talking about anything beside money. Just look at your news. > > If theres a stupid pile of roman silver, it's top news and > > it gets a lot of attention. The historic value is zero, but > > it's silver - on the other side, it needs a earth shaking > > discovery (like the Keltic statue two years ago) just to > > have a few lines... > Non sequitur, I think. I agree that the news coverage bears this out well, but > I don't agree that this is the opinion of _any_ serious archaeologist, amateur > or professional, of my acquaintance. Not any, but I doubt that there is a higher percentage of 'good' guys than anywhere else. > I think that news coverage is about money. The money mentality that pervades so > much of our society means that the newspapers measure the importance of > _anything_ they don't actually understand by the amount of money involved. Agreed. > Money is as relevant to archaeologists as it is to the rest of us, but I don't > think it is the main driver for most, or even many, of the people who do > significant work in this field. Well, I learned to belive more into the dark side. > PS I don't recall hearing about this Celtic statue - can you point me to more > detail? I'm just about to search for sources (Paxton also asked). -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Aug 25 09:12:57 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990825091257.00a398f0@207.207.0.212> I just picked up a Tandy 2800HD laptop! Anyone have any clues/leads where I can find a power supply board and floppy drive for this thing? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 25 09:37:08 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: "PC Roadkill" book site gone? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990825093708.011f5250@vpwisfirewall> Michael Hyman's "PC Roadkill" book site at has disappeared. Anyone know where it went? He had been hosting the executables for Claus Giloi's IMSAI/Altair emulators for Windows. I still have the source on my page at but now that this other page has disappeared, I think I'll add the executables, too. - John From wrking at tsoft.com Wed Aug 25 10:40:48 1999 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: RK11 and M9312 questions In-Reply-To: <199908250702.AAA05741@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <002501beef10$33e78a40$1501a8c0@trantor.frop.org> I just received a load of boards that were associated with an 11/34. I'm going to try to upgrade my 11/04, but since I don't have any doc's I have a few questions. If anyone could help, it would be greatly appreciated. 1. What are the switch settings for a M9312 bootstrap/terminator card? 2. On the M9312, there is a jumper that has been lifted on the left edge of the card (next to the third chip up from the edge connector). What's this for? 3. My M9312 has three empty sockets. Is this normal? 4. I have a 4 board set for the RK11 controller. Can this plug into a standard unibus, or does it require a special backplane? If I remember correctly, you use a unibus extension cable to daisy chain into the rk05's. 5. Can anyone direct me to the description of the two edge connectors on the top of the 11/34 board set? Thanks, Bill From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 25 10:51:07 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (musicman38@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts? Message-ID: <000a01beef11$a5ee6860$1b358ad1@server> >I just picked up a Tandy 2800HD laptop! Anyone have any clues/leads where >I can find a power supply board and floppy drive for this thing? > You can still buy a new one from Tandy. See Tandy.com or you can build one, I think its 9.8 volts.. But you can goto their support site and it will give you the specs on it.. I purchased mine form them as it need one also, about $16.00 I think.. Phil... From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Aug 25 11:25:05 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: RK11 and M9312 questions In-Reply-To: <002501beef10$33e78a40$1501a8c0@trantor.frop.org> References: <199908250702.AAA05741@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990825092505.00862e00@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Bill: At 08:40 AM 25/08/99 -0700, you wrote: >4. I have a 4 board set for the RK11 controller. Can this plug into a >standard unibus, or does it require a special backplane? If I remember >correctly, you use a unibus extension cable to daisy chain into the rk05's. This requires a board-set specific SU, I have some docs on it at home, I can look it up for you. I _think_ it's a DD11-K SU but I'm not sure. Someone else will likely pop up with the definitive info. I am currently the high bidder on eBay for a print set for the RK11-D boards, if I get them I will likely be able to tell you more, and can make a copy of them for you. Hey, if you decide you want to sell the RK11 board set, let me know - I could use a spare set for my machine here! Good luck, Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 25 11:37:41 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (musicman38@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts? Message-ID: <004001beef18$27169ec0$1b358ad1@server> -----Original Message----- From: musicman38@mindspring.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of Tandys... 2800HD parts? >>I just picked up a Tandy 2800HD laptop! Anyone have any clues/leads where >>I can find a power supply board and floppy drive for this thing? >> > > >You can still buy a new one from Tandy. See Tandy.com >or you can build one, I think its 9.8 volts.. >But you can goto their support site and it will give you the specs on it.. > >I purchased mine form them as it need one also, about $16.00 I think.. > >Phil... > Correction the website is http://support.tandy.com/ Phil... From jritorto at nut.net Wed Aug 25 12:40:06 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: xxdp boot disk Message-ID: how do I make a bootable rx33 xxdp disk? I currently have version 2.5 on an rl02. TIA jake From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 12:31:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Serial Number Project (and a question or two) In-Reply-To: <199908250113.SAA27782@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at Aug 24, 99 06:13:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 502 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990825/1af034db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 12:34:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 In-Reply-To: <19990825015802.3879.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 24, 99 06:58:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990825/99913e6b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 12:50:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: RK11 and M9312 questions In-Reply-To: <002501beef10$33e78a40$1501a8c0@trantor.frop.org> from "William King" at Aug 25, 99 08:40:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1097 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990825/3eb21b0c/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 13:42:48 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 Message-ID: <19990825184248.13263.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > This is not typical. Most older FDC cards drive all the floppy interface > lines with 7438 (or similar open-collector gates) devices. More modern > ones put everything into the same ASIC as the floppy controller logic > (and maybe other things as well). Right. The Amiga is atypical. This PeeCeeoid is industry standard inside. > > I'm trying to make a cable to hook up floppy drive to a proprietary DB-25 > > external connector on a sealed PeeCeeoid. > > Sealed? No such thing :-)... That's what screwdrivers, torx drivers, > hammers, etc are for.. Of course. That's how I got as far as I did - I disassembled the box, located a 34-pad spot on the motherboard where a floppy connector *should* go, then used a VOM to trace the wiring between the internal 34-pin connector and the external 25-pin connector. What stumped me was a lack of /MOTORON (pin 16). All is now well. It boots Linux just fine. Thanks. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 16:07:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Wanted: jumper settings for Teac FD-235HF-101 In-Reply-To: <19990825184248.13263.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 25, 99 11:42:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1709 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990825/a4705101/attachment.ksh From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Aug 25 19:51:43 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100/30 Questions Message-ID: <37C48F9F.7A2FC85E@halcyon.com> I think this qualifies as "Classic", since the VS3100 is based on the CVAX chip set from 1987. I have a few questions which maybe someone on the list can answer. I picked up a VS3100/30, model VS42A-AA, with 24MB RAM. The material I have found on the Web says this computer should be expandable to 32MB of RAM, but I don't see how. It now has 4MB on the motherboard and two daughter boards with 12MB and 8MB. The two daughter boards connect together with only one connecting to the motherboard. Where would you attach another board with 8MB more memory? Although the system came with a hard drive and OpenVMS, I got the hobbyist OpenVMS CD-ROM and want to install it on another hard drive that I've added. The drive is an IBM Model 0663-H, which is a 1GB (slightly less, actually, if you count in base 2) drive. The specs for the drive say it is "compatible" with the VS3100 when a configuration is made using a SCSI command (which I have no way of doing, of course--it must be done by a driver). I connect the drive, the VS3100 console sees it fine, and then I try to do a low-level format using Test 75. At various times (varies randomly) into the formatting progress I get an error "PV_SCS_FMT_ERR#2", which I have no idea of its meaning. What does this mean? Is there any termination on the internal SCSI A bus on this machine, or does the last drive on the cable need to do it? (The IBM Model 0633-H doesn't have any, and it was on the middle connector.) Thanks for any help. Dave From swcl at unitel.co.kr Wed Aug 25 19:59:37 1999 From: swcl at unitel.co.kr (sowon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Portable color TV Message-ID: <199908260959370680.0309A3C4@kotec.net> We SOWON, are one of the leading designers of quality portable color TV receiver employing state of the art microprocessor technology in Korea. SOWON has long been experienced and involved in the electronics industry, which now leads the current wave of changes, supplying a broadcast receiving equipment since it,s inception. Since then, we have diversified our business on high expectations that international trade will be more important in the 21st century, thus helping to build a more affluent society. With the aim of improving the quality of life and proposing a new sense of value, SOWON will exert every endeavors to fulfill your requirement whenever you want something special. Whether you're in work or in leisure, our quality product can be with you! home page: http://www.swn.co.kr Tel: 82-2-2249-4311 Fax: 82-2-2242-3693 E-mail: swcl@unitel.co.kr For more details at our website. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Aug 25 20:48:41 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990821214656.00a99100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990825213253.00a82460@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:08 PM 8/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > >> Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containing >> all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece of >> Sellam's msg: > >Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you >read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE >doesn't display it for me. Hi Sellam, Just got back from a mini vacation down to Dayton, Oh. (That Air Force Museum just gets better and better . . . :) So, I'm just getting into a stack of 448 messages piled up since Sunday AM. Yes, it does appear for every msg from ClassicCmp. Those five lines just suddenly started to be included with the header one day and that day _may_, IIRC, have coincided with the new list server software Derek mentioned that the U. of Wash. installed. Here's the five extra header lines copied again for those who weren't keeping track of the thread early on: "List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: (Human contact for the list) List-Post: " I haven't ever used PINE but I understand it is a text only email program (which is what we only need 99.95% of the time.) So, perhaps there's some funny stuff going on with the formatting of the text and PINE just happily ignores it. With Eudora Pro, for example, those URLs are underlined links and all I have to do is click on one if I need to use that function. Sort of handy I think, but it does add to the length of the msg file. I suppose Derek may have weighed-in already with his expert input on the list s/w, so I'd better shut up now. (Hey, he's a student and keeper of this list at the U. of Washington, so that makes hime the de facto "expert" ;) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Aug 25 20:51:07 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: More mailing list spam Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990825185107.00978c80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> The recent 'Color TV' spam has been traced and identified, and a formal complaint has been filed. If anyone else wishes to express their displeasure, please feel free to send your comments (preferably polite) to: prion@diginet.net (He's listed as the administrative contact for the domain ELIPIA.CO.KR, who is hosting KOTEC.NET -- the domain that spammed us). tychoi@samsung.co.kr (Listed as the domain contact for unitel.co.kr, where the spammer(s) are maintaining a mailbox). Enjoy, but remember... one catches a lot more flies with honey than vinegar. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Aug 25 21:49:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:01 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100/30 Questions Message-ID: <199908260249.WAA19736@world.std.com> <4MB on the motherboard and two daughter boards with 12MB and <8MB. The two daughter boards connect together with only one included are the headers as I typically get them. RDFmail collects the whole mess from SGI unix (or whatever they call it) via mail. Allison ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:48:57 -0700 ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:48:56 -0700 ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:37:06 -0400 (Human contact for On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: <> <>> Is it true that Jon and some others do not get a type of header containi <>> all the info such others of us do? Such as the following FWD'ed piece o <>> Sellam's msg: <> <>Wow, I've never seen that stuff. Does that appear for every message you <>read in your mailer software? It's probably in the headers, but PINE <>doesn't display it for me. < (Human contact fo " < Hello, all: Last night, I sort of got approval from Jim Butterfield to post a copy of The First Book of KIM. He really didn't say "do it", but he said to look at this other guy's work and look at the copyright in the book (it's really an anti-copyright). First off, here's a useful URL http://www.total.net/~yhpun/Kim-1.html Second, I'll more than likely start scanning the book next week, to eventually be posted on the secure area. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From cdrmool at interlog.com Thu Aug 26 09:35:45 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: Wes Graham Obit Message-ID: <000301beefd0$48d04f80$3d0014d1@cdrmool.interlog.com> From gossonb at kan.marconi.ca Thu Aug 26 12:57:00 1999 From: gossonb at kan.marconi.ca (Gosson, Bruce - Kan DC) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: CS/80 Message-ID: <37C5802C@avgate.kan.marconi.ca> I don't know if you are still interest in any of this stuff but I have copies of the CS/80 protocol. I actually support a system that was development in the early 80's and is still in use by British Telecom. We have prototype and are putting together a proposal to use a PC with a GPIB card to emulate a disk drive using the CS/80 command set. Let me know if you have any interest in this. Regards, Bruce Gosson Braddan Bridge Consulting bgosson@cyberus.ca From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Aug 26 11:23:55 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: Fwd: Commadores and IBM available in Cleveland Ohio Message-ID: <199908261622.LAA19202@trailingedge.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990826/77ea6430/attachment.bin From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Aug 26 13:06:30 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: CS/80 In-Reply-To: <37C5802C@avgate.kan.marconi.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19990826140246.0093b3f0@206.231.8.2> Well Bruce, several of us HP collectors on the list have been looking in ernest (or in anywhere else ;) for any complete description of CS-80 to help support various HP disk drive units each of us have. If this is the case with your document, we would be very happy to obtain copies of it. Regards, Chris -- -- Upon the date 10:57 AM 8/26/99 -0700, Gosson, Bruce - Kan DC said something like: > > >I don't know if you are still interest in any of this stuff but I have >copies >of the CS/80 protocol. I actually support a system that was development >in the early 80's and is still in use by British Telecom. > >We have prototype and are putting together a proposal to use a PC with a >GPIB card to emulate a disk drive using the CS/80 command set. > >Let me know if you have any interest in this. > >Regards, > >Bruce Gosson >Braddan Bridge Consulting > >bgosson@cyberus.ca Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Aug 26 14:11:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: GPIB tools In-Reply-To: References: <000001bedac4$96097540$46c502cf@l7> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990826141152.3e0ff6e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:33 AM 8/23/99 +0100, you wrote: >> BTW - Does anybody know of any hobby level (cheep) GP-IB programming >> tools? All I want to do is control several DVM and a counter and >> function generator - minimal stuff for very basic bench automation. >> Any ideals? Thanks My recommndation would be a HP 85 (or the 86 or 87) or a HP 9825. Both of them are plentiful and cheap and have the language built-in. The 85 uses BASIC, the 9825 uses HPL but it's easy to figure out. Joe From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Aug 26 13:28:58 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <4.1.19990826112258.03f3a460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> As was pointed out on the NetBSD list, Compaq has officially End-of-lifed (EOLd) the VAX architecture. This follows a trend of having EOLs the -8, -10, -11, and now VAX series. I suggested to some folks, off list, that perhaps DEC should make the PDP-11 architecture "open source" in the sense of allowing anyone to produce PDP-11 capable processors but was told that Mentec has purchased the rights to the PDP-11 architecture from DEC. What's up with that? True? False? Kind-a true? (I know Mentec sells PDP-11 compatible computers) Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. Given something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. We could potentially get to a system that was completely "open hardware." (ie anyone could build one with no royalty requirements, and hackers could build them for fun.) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 26 13:41:43 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826112258.03f3a460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 26, 99 11:28:58 am Message-ID: <199908261841.LAA02852@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990826/c9eb2e05/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 26 17:06:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <990826180620.23200632@trailing-edge.com> >I suggested to some folks, off list, that perhaps DEC should make the >PDP-11 architecture "open source" in the sense of allowing anyone to >produce PDP-11 capable processors but was told that Mentec has purchased >the rights to the PDP-11 architecture from DEC. What's up with that? True? >False? Kind-a true? (I know Mentec sells PDP-11 compatible computers) Mentec sells several different kinds of PDP-11 compatible computers, some of them based on the DEC/Harris J-11 chipset, others based around custom FPGA's. See http://www.mentec.com/ for a rundown. Other companies have made drop-in PDP-11 replacements over the years, too. QEI (based in MA) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/34's, 11/44's, and 11/70's, and Setasi (in Florida) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/70's. I don't think there's any legal impediment to picking up a PDP-11 processor handbook and implementing your own hardware design of the architecture. (Just as there's nothing stopping you from building a PC-clone motherboard or a x86 CPU based on published specs.) In the end, you'll have to be sure that you aren't stepping on anybody's patents, of course. >Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the >entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. The faster Mentec boards are heavily built around FPGA's, they are certainly one common way to go for such things. > Given >something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would >make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. I'm not sure that NetBSD is necessarily the way to go. It hogs memory like crazy (not something you want to do in the 16-bit virtual address space of an -11), the standard compiler (gcc) is a real CPU-eater compared to "native" compilers, and changes to the predominantly Intel-based sources take a long time to get "fixed up" for the less common architectures. Heck, the current Vax port is actually less functional (in terms of stability and hardware support) than it was three years ago. OTOH, for $100 you can get a Unix source license ( see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/index.html ) and run 2.11BSD on your hardware, which gives you just about everything you could want from a modern Unix (including networking) that will actually fit. And it doesn't use gcc - that's a *real* advantage on an -11! Yes, I have run RT-11, RSX-11, and 2.11 BSD on systems that didn't have a single DEC hardware component in them. (For example, a Mentec M100 CPU and Andromeda disk controller in a third-party Q-bus backplane.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:42:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826112258.03f3a460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 26, 99 11:28:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990826/068b4dfc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:33:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: CS/80 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826140246.0093b3f0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Aug 26, 99 02:06:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990826/21f9da53/attachment.ksh From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Thu Aug 26 17:39:43 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826112258.03f3a460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: I have been pondering the complexities of implementing a PDP-11 class processor (KDJ11, because I have a manual) in an FPGA for a few months now, and have a few rhetorical questions to pose: How many gates is a single chip processor going to use? And how expensive is an FPGA that size. Or are large PALs a better choice (free tools for AMD/Vantis MACH series, and Altera's entry level parts) What to use for a system. If I use a QBus based system (I have several available) what are the timing requirements? Is there a doc for this? Or Unibus? Or (my current favorite) Socket-7... What architecture? Microcoded or gates? Microcode requires an assembler, but might be quicker in the long run. And when its all done, what is it really good for? How many "hardware hackers" are interested in building CPU boards, and are willing to share the cost of laying out and manufacturing PCBs? I will probably make a stab at it, but depending on life, might not ever finish... clint On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > As was pointed out on the NetBSD list, Compaq has officially End-of-lifed > (EOLd) the VAX architecture. This follows a trend of having EOLs the -8, > -10, -11, and now VAX series. > > I suggested to some folks, off list, that perhaps DEC should make the > PDP-11 architecture "open source" in the sense of allowing anyone to > produce PDP-11 capable processors but was told that Mentec has purchased > the rights to the PDP-11 architecture from DEC. What's up with that? True? > False? Kind-a true? (I know Mentec sells PDP-11 compatible computers) > > Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the > entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. Given > something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would > make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. We could > potentially get to a system that was completely "open hardware." (ie anyone > could build one with no royalty requirements, and hackers could build them > for fun.) > > --Chuck > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 26 18:14:16 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990826112258.03f3a460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990826160306.03dfcb20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 04:39 PM 8/26/99 -0600, Clint wrote: > How many gates is a single chip processor going to use? And how > expensive is an FPGA that size. Or are large PALs a better choice > (free tools for AMD/Vantis MACH series, and Altera's entry level > parts) I bought something called the "Xilinx Student Edition 1.5" from Amazon.com its a book/CD combination that includes the complete suite of Xilinx Foundation tools. The book consists of a series of tutorials that last of which is building an 8 bit microprocessor. This assumes the XC4005 part which is a "5K equivalent gates' part. The software will also program a XC4010 which is a "10K equivalent gates" part. The XC4005 and XC4010 from Digi-key are (for the slower parts) $26 and $62 dollars respectively. A PDP-11 is certainly doable in the 4010 part, but I don't know if I could do it and the 11/70 MMU or if I'd end up using two parts. These parts are "slow" (50Mhz) which is a hell of a lot faster than a lot of -11's :-) > What to use for a system. If I use a QBus based system (I have > several available) what are the timing requirements? Is there > a doc for this? Or Unibus? Or (my current favorite) Socket-7... There are online versions of ISA interfaces done in Verilog or VHDL. Doing a Q-bus interface should be pretty straight forward. The specs are in the architecture manual. > What architecture? Microcoded or gates? Microcode requires an > assembler, but might be quicker in the long run. Intel sued several people over the alleged use of Pentium microcode, legally gates would probably be safer, also microcode == memory and memory eats gates rapidly (even though the Xilinx have some cool features to avoid that) > And when its all done, what is it really good for? How many > "hardware hackers" are interested in building CPU boards, and > are willing to share the cost of laying out and manufacturing > PCBs? Well, once a validated VHDL description of a PDP-11 core is produced, having that made into an ASIC is fairly straight forward. Even some universities can do small runs (a couple of wafers). If was truely zero royalties we might get one of the fab houses to consider putting it on their "standard custom" list. These guys will "fill out" wafers with other parts to maximize silicon utilization. >I will probably make a stab at it, but depending on life, might not >ever finish... Sounds like the definition of a hobby to me. :-) I'm going to do a PDP-8 on my evaluation board, and after that will look at helping out on a PDP-11. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:00:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Aug 26, 99 04:39:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2014 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990827/1868f9f3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 18:05:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826160306.03dfcb20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 26, 99 04:14:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 878 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990827/979202af/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 26 18:20:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <199908262320.TAA12494@world.std.com> >Making a processor is not hard (although FPGAs might make it harder than >just using simple TTL chips -- some of the manufacturer's claims on this >are plain false). I'd not try to re-implement the PDP11 unless you had a >good reason to do that -- rather, design an instruction set and >architecture and implement it. I agree 100% here. *Especially* if your goal is to run NetBSD or Linux or (insert popular Unix-like free OS here). These OS's simply don't fit well into the 16-bit virtual address space of an -11 (2.11 BSD has many of the features of modern Unices, but doesn't have the wastage found in NetBSD or Linux). A small, RISC-ish instruction set is perfect for implementing NetBSD on. Things get a bit more complicated as you add the necessary memory management, of course! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 26 18:51:50 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826160306.03dfcb20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <4.1.19990826112258.03f3a460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990826185150.01102b00@vpwisfirewall> Chuck wrote: >Well, once a validated VHDL description of a PDP-11 core is produced, >having that made into an ASIC is fairly straight forward. Even some >universities can do small runs (a couple of wafers). I'd think it's entirely possible that someone has done this already. Certainly it's a semester-sized project for a university student. Is there a newsgroup or mailing list that might be able to point the way? - John From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Aug 26 19:06:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <199908270006.UAA11444@world.std.com> < How many gates is a single chip processor going to use? And how < expensive is an FPGA that size. Or are large PALs a better choice < (free tools for AMD/Vantis MACH series, and Altera's entry level < parts) Figure well in to the 10000+ region. The PDP-11 looks simple but it's not! < What to use for a system. If I use a QBus based system (I have < several available) what are the timing requirements? Is there < a doc for this? Or Unibus? Or (my current favorite) Socket-7... Least significant consideration. First the chip/chips. < What architecture? Microcoded or gates? Microcode requires an < assembler, but might be quicker in the long run. Microcoded, all of the chip level 11s are (LSI-11, F11, T11, J11). < And when its all done, what is it really good for? How many < "hardware hackers" are interested in building CPU boards, and < are willing to share the cost of laying out and manufacturing < PCBs? Look a any PDP-11 ask that question, theres your answer. What architecture? Microcoded or gates? Microcode requires an <> assembler, but might be quicker in the long run. < from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Aug 26, 1999 7:47:42 pm" Message-ID: <199908270029.UAA39008@pechter.dyndns.org> > >Making a processor is not hard (although FPGAs might make it harder than > >just using simple TTL chips -- some of the manufacturer's claims on this > >are plain false). I'd not try to re-implement the PDP11 unless you had a > >good reason to do that -- rather, design an instruction set and > >architecture and implement it. Tim Shopa adds: > I agree 100% here. *Especially* if your goal is to run NetBSD or Linux > or (insert popular Unix-like free OS here). These OS's simply don't > fit well into the 16-bit virtual address space of an -11 (2.11 BSD > has many of the features of modern Unices, but doesn't have the wastage > found in NetBSD or Linux). > > A small, RISC-ish instruction set is perfect for implementing NetBSD > on. Things get a bit more complicated as you add the necessary memory > management, of course! > I once started figuring out an instruction set of a PDP32. Thirty two bit wide registers, 32 registers in two register sets... A PDP11 compatibility mode using half of the registers. Kind of a cross between the PDP11 and VAX11 without the complex stuff like Packed instructions and such. I kind of wonder if one could be built and designed to work with an extended virtual address unit that could map to 11/70 par and pdr relocations and run multiple virtual 11/70's under it. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Aug 26 20:05:04 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <199908270006.UAA11577@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990826175716.00b4e100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:06 PM 8/26/99 -0400, Allison wrote: > The base > PDP-11 (11/20, LSI11, T11) has 8 16bit registers plus flags and maybe > temps for internal use. One of the unique features of the Xlinix FPGAs is that their "configuration" memory is RAM and if you are not using it to configure logic gates you can use it as RAM. The XC4010 has "400" CLBs (Complex Logic blocks) and each logic block is capable of implementing a 4 x 16 (16 nybble) synchronous dual-port register file. So four CLBs give you 16 16 bit registers to play with with 396 CLBs left over. To Tonys comment about speed, yes the 50Mhz number is deceptive in that logic delays will make the effective speed slower. Several references have placed the "effective" speed at 1/3 to 1/2 the FPGA's speed (or in this case 16 - 25 Mhz) however for a bit more money, you can get a 200Mhz version of the same part. There is a very nice evaluation board for this part available from http://www.xess.com/FPGA/ that I've got and will be using in my first tests. I did a preliminary "floor plan" for the PDP-8 and it used just under 1/3 of the 4010 (or 75% of a 4005 given the routing issues, which leaves enough to do an M8660 serial port.) --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Thu Aug 26 20:30:18 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <001a01bef02b$d2f6c440$0400c0a8@winbook> addressing only the comment quoted below . . . Really, Tony, I think you overemphasize the importance of the individual user to the semiconductor manufacturers. The level of competition for the FPGA business has escalated to where the development software, previously costing several K-bucks US, now costs as little as $100, and, in the case of ALTERA, is quite free. Now, that's not the complete package with all the bells and whistles, but it's enough to build a device from start to finish. I really doubt that it would turn out to be illegal to take the old 11-70 or whatever schematic and essentially clone it in an FPGA, but I doubt a clever rebuilder would want to do that anyway. It might be either equally good in the end product to build the thing so it's thriftier than the TTL design would be, yet still a bit faster, or so it's quite a bit faster and perhaps not quite the same. It doesn't have to be identical to run the same code. The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in the '70's. That doesn't mean you can take a '70's design and "transliterate" it and make it run lots faster, though that is conceivable. What it does mean is, similarly to translating poetry from one language to another, logical constructs can be ported from one technology to the other, changing the outward and physical details of the circuitry, yet preserving the upper-level sense of the logic in such a way that it capitalizes on the available enhancements, thereby yielding a product which is quite different from the original, yet performs the identical task in more or less the same way at MUCH greater speed, or MUCH lower complexity, and, hopefully lower cost. Once you've translated a poem, you've done the same work as the poet, more, in fact, yet you've created nothing new. OTOH, in the case of the computer, redesigned to capitalize on new technology, I believe you could argue that it is, indeed, something quite new. If it were to be generated for, say , a XILINX part of the 5200 series, it would not necessarily be very costly, nor would it be difficult once one has the original print set as crib sheets. What's more, it would potentially be so much faster than the original, and take up so much less space, e.g. a 2" square package, you could build the MMU into it and interface it directly to the DRAMs, maybe adding a circuit to copy the ROM code into RAM during its boot. Schematic entry would be the easiest way to clone the prints, but HDL is considered by many to be the best way to implement an architecture, the behavior of which is well defined and understood. If you build your device in VHDL or VERILOG, it is inherently portable, since both XILINX and Altera, among others, support both. Building a device like this in several parts merely ups the cost, since resources are consumed by the interconnection between them. Time is used up in the interconnections as well, so performance would be lower. When all is said and done, the single FPGA is the "right" notion. I don't think the FPGA makers would care if you use their parts to craft a device. If you have the HDL code, nearly any distributor will provide you access to the resources to implement it in a product they sell, provided you buy the parts from them. They cost a few dollars in small quantity, but if you say the right "things" when approaching them, and seem sufficiently eccentric, they'll treat you right. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 4:08 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >I am sure it's illegal to (say) take the PDP11/70 printset, modify it so >that it could work in an FPGA (and there would be significant mods), and >implement it like that. I am not so sure there would be any problem if >you just took the instruction set and designed a CPU to run it without >using any DEC printsets. People have done this with the PDP8 for many years. > > >> >> Given the complexity of the 11/70 CPU it should be possible to put the >> entire thing inside a relatively inexpensive FPGA these days. Given >> something like NetBSD that is already multi-architecture aware, that would >> make it possible to have an open source OS running on it. We could >> potentially get to a system that was completely "open hardware." (ie anyone >> could build one with no royalty requirements, and hackers could build them >> for fun.) > >If you wanted to do this, then it would probably be easier to design a >CPU from scratch (which is not hard) that was better suited to running *BSD. > >Also, be warned that if you're going to use FPGAs you have to use the >manufacturer's tools which are not going to be Open-Source, and which are >not going to run under Open-Source OSes. Several of us have moaned about >this for quite a time, but alas there are no 100% documented FPGAs out >there, and if anyone manages to crack the configuration format, you can >bet the manufacturers will change it, along with a 'free update' to the >official tools. > >In other words, the machine won't really be free for anyone to construct. > >-tony > From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Aug 26 21:20:56 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <019d01bef032$e1858e90$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >Other companies have made drop-in PDP-11 replacements over the years, too. >QEI (based in MA) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/34's, 11/44's, and >11/70's, and Setasi (in Florida) makes drop-in upgrades for 11/70's. Correction it is QED in MA. I have one of their J11 upgrades for 11/24's - with docs. QEI is a DEC dealer. There is also Nissho that I have seen info on but have never played with. >Yes, I have run RT-11, RSX-11, and 2.11 BSD on systems that didn't >have a single DEC hardware component in them. (For example, a Mentec >M100 CPU and Andromeda disk controller in a third-party Q-bus backplane.) > The M100 I have in hand still uses the J11 however. I think the latest ones they went away from real J11's. Dan From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Thu Aug 26 23:29:03 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: Harris Mainframe? (fwd) Message-ID: Can someone help this guy out? Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: garald4@net-link.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:10:01 -0700 From: Garald Austin Barton IV To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Harris Mainframe? I am a college student looking for information about a mainframe. Harris (Data Communications Division) Model No. KH174-32R Made approx. 1984 Thank you for your time. Any response is appreciated. garald4 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 08/17/99] [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Aug 27 07:27:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826175716.00b4e100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > logic gates you can use it as RAM. The XC4010 has "400" CLBs (Complex Logic > blocks) and each logic block is capable of implementing a 4 x 16 (16 > nybble) synchronous dual-port register file. So four CLBs give you 16 16 > bit registers to play with with 396 CLBs left over. The routing will kill you faster than you think. Though they are pretty neat parts. > To Tonys comment about speed, yes the 50Mhz number is deceptive in that > logic delays will make the effective speed slower. Several references have > placed the "effective" speed at 1/3 to 1/2 the FPGA's speed (or in this > case 16 - 25 Mhz) however for a bit more money, you can get a 200Mhz > version of the same part. Doing actual project with 3030-50 parts 10mhz was pretty good for a sync counter as a reliable figure though some would do as much as 16mhz. Memory based parts like that have fairly high rounting node delays. the payboac ofcourse is programability. > There is a very nice evaluation board for this part available from > http://www.xess.com/FPGA/ that I've got and will be using in my first tests. How many $$$ ? > I did a preliminary "floor plan" for the PDP-8 and it used just under 1/3 > of the 4010 (or 75% of a 4005 given the routing issues, which leaves enough > to do an M8660 serial port.) Me I'd do a stretch-8 for fun. though yours sounds interesting too. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Aug 27 07:36:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <001a01bef02b$d2f6c440$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to > operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in Old ttl was nowhere near that much slower. The lowly 7400 in 72 was comfortablly under 15ns, true the FPA part may be under 1ns now but... that's not 50X! Of course adding interconnection delays and other factors the 10x number is very honest. > the '70's. That doesn't mean you can take a '70's design and > "transliterate" it and make it run lots faster, though that is conceivable. This is true of any from one logic system to another. PDP-8 for example used a lot of "wired or" and similar logic in the data paths to conserve gates. Of course that was a slower way to do it but lower cost too. So a design translation can buy speed at the cost of logic or design effort. > Schematic entry would be the easiest way to clone the prints, but HDL is > considered by many to be the best way to implement an architecture, the > behavior of which is well defined and understood. If you build your device > in VHDL or VERILOG, it is inherently portable, since both XILINX and Altera, > among others, support both. VHDL is the way to go but developing the description would be the real work. > access to the resources to implement it in a product they sell, provided you > buy the parts from them. They cost a few dollars in small quantity, but if > you say the right "things" when approaching them, and seem sufficiently > eccentric, they'll treat you right. Roger that. Besides, they know if you do one your likely to use it for other things (drag factor). Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 27 08:55:39 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:02 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826175716.00b4e100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <199908270006.UAA11577@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990827085539.0116f7c0@vpwisfirewall> At 06:05 PM 8/26/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > >There is a very nice evaluation board for this part available from >http://www.xess.com/FPGA/ that I've got and will be using in my first tests. I guess I haven't been paying much attention to this market. Wow, less than $200 gets a board with a 3.3v 20,000 gate Xilinx, 32K SRAM, an 8031, breadboard connection, mouse/keyboard and parallel ports, and a VGA interface. And that was one of the most expensive ones there. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 27 09:42:18 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990827094218.010d4ec0@vpwisfirewall> Here's an interesting twist: genetic algorithms in FPGAs, discriminating words and tones: - John From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 27 10:20:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <000d01bef09f$c10be0c0$0400c0a8@winbook> The rule of thumb back in the '70's was that TTL was "good" to 25 MHz. Current generation FPGA's routinely operate at 10x that speed, while, in reality, it was an exceptional TTL design of the '70's that would allow a significant bit of circuitry, e.g. a FIFO or a synchronous state machine, to operate across more than a very few bits at that speed. Typical prop-delays of 10-15 ns would add up quickly. (remember that we've since then learned about pipleine registers, which were not in common usage then.) The latest (e.g. VIRTEX) families boast synchronous performances of 500 MHz for such structures, though their CLB's (configurable logic blocks) have prop-delays of under a ns and clock-to-q prop's in that range as well. Those CLB's are really lookup tables in which you program a random function of up to 5 variables, hence get the same prop whether it's a nand or an xnor. It would take a clever designer indeed to get anywhere near the top level of performance with a rework of the PDP-11 processor, but it's been attempted. There are more than one of them out there, though I haven't kept up on that. Nevertheless, if you do it, particularly in a popular HDL, you're developing essentially your own intellectual property, and in a portable medium which you can use with any vendor's product. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 6:35 AM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to >> operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in > >Old ttl was nowhere near that much slower. The lowly 7400 in 72 was >comfortablly under 15ns, true the FPA part may be under 1ns now but... >that's not 50X! Of course adding interconnection delays and other factors >the 10x number is very honest. > >> the '70's. That doesn't mean you can take a '70's design and >> "transliterate" it and make it run lots faster, though that is conceivable. > >This is true of any from one logic system to another. PDP-8 for example >used a lot of "wired or" and similar logic in the data paths to conserve >gates. Of course that was a slower way to do it but lower cost too. >So a design translation can buy speed at the cost of logic or design >effort. > >> Schematic entry would be the easiest way to clone the prints, but HDL is >> considered by many to be the best way to implement an architecture, the >> behavior of which is well defined and understood. If you build your device >> in VHDL or VERILOG, it is inherently portable, since both XILINX and Altera, >> among others, support both. > >VHDL is the way to go but developing the description would be the real >work. > >> access to the resources to implement it in a product they sell, provided you >> buy the parts from them. They cost a few dollars in small quantity, but if >> you say the right "things" when approaching them, and seem sufficiently >> eccentric, they'll treat you right. > >Roger that. Besides, they know if you do one your likely to use it for >other things (drag factor). > >Allison > From aknight at mindspring.com Fri Aug 27 10:56:42 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990826175716.00b4e100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <199908270006.UAA11577@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990827115642.007a6ba0@mindspring.com> Hi, Another data point w.r.t. implementing microprocessors in FPGAs involves the 6502: When Altera was initially rolling out their 10K family of FPGAs, one of their marketing charts shows how they built a 6502 processor inside a 10K50 device using only 7% of the FPGA resources. Regards, Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm At 06:05 PM 8/26/99 -0700, Chuck wrote: >I did a preliminary "floor plan" for the PDP-8 and it used just under 1/3 >of the 4010 (or 75% of a 4005 given the routing issues, which leaves enough >to do an M8660 serial port.) > >--Chuck > > From max82 at surfree.com Fri Aug 27 11:06:18 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: Evovling computers (Was Re: PDP era and a question) Message-ID: <001001bef0a6$285a5a80$0101a8c0@fred> > Wow, thanks for that link, John. I was not aware that this type of 'genetic programming' had actually come this far. The one thing that bothers me about it is that the scientist does not know how it works. Although I realize that it has to come to this at some point, I would really like to know how the machines which I create function. Besides for the fact that I would then be able to fix them, I could also rule out the possibility of this machine trying to take over the world or some such thing (possible with an advanced enough machine). From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 27 11:57:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <000601bef0ad$63631980$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register at a time. Additionally, if one chooses to implement it in the way the original manufacturers did, the ALU serves, not only to operate the instruction set, but also is used to operate on the PC and SP as well. This save LOTS of resources in the construction of the associated counter chains. That's not to say it's easy to implement this architecture in an efficient way, though. You have to look at another aspect of FPGA's however, and that's the combined effect of routing and resource utilization. The ALTERA folks may claim to have implemented this architecture in only 7% of the resources of the part, but at what cost? In general, a substantial portion of the resources available in a device, in terms, for example, of raw gate count, is lost in the implmentation of a design. In each logic cell or logic block, there are resources which the marketing department proudly counts and advertises, yet which, once a part of the logic cell is used, are gone forever and unusable. The routing is another factor which plays a big role in the way FPGA's work out. Allocating a given routing resource in a certain way can effectively render other logic resources unusable because of lack of interconnection resources with which to do that. Consequently, routing in a manner essential to a given level of performance for some of the device resources can render other resources unreachable for any practical purpose. The marketing guys don't consider this when publishing their full-color glossy brocheures, though. If they go to work, they'll say, well, this nand gate is only 6% of a CLB, even though the entire CLB is used up, say, and that pipeline register used to synchronize these functions is only 12% . . . when in reality as much as 50% of the array may be consumed by such a design, and the remaining "half" may be very difficult to utilize beyond 15%. I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU design. Now, the Virtex CLB allows a single CLB to function as a two-bit full-adder. If one wants the best performance/resource allocation tradeoff, I'm nearly convinced that the best way might be to design it with a 2-bit ALU slice because the resource consumption is small yet the delay for a 2-bit registered implementation of an 8-bit ALU would be just as fast as an 8-bit implementation because of the carry delay from stage to stage. It appears to me that the rate-determining step, then, becomes how fast a clock can be routed through the array. In the case of the 2-bit slice, it doesn't have to propagate very far to get the job done. With an 8-bit implementation, there's a lot more routing delay, and at least four times as much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) Dick -----Original Message----- From: Alex Knight To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 9:58 AM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >Hi, > >Another data point w.r.t. implementing microprocessors in FPGAs >involves the 6502: When Altera was initially rolling out their 10K >family of FPGAs, one of their marketing charts shows how they >built a 6502 processor inside a 10K50 device using only 7% of >the FPGA resources. > >Regards, >Alex Knight >Calculator History & Technology Web Page >http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm > >At 06:05 PM 8/26/99 -0700, Chuck wrote: > >>I did a preliminary "floor plan" for the PDP-8 and it used just under 1/3 >>of the 4010 (or 75% of a 4005 given the routing issues, which leaves enough >>to do an M8660 serial port.) >> >>--Chuck >> >> From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Aug 27 15:45:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <000601bef0ad$63631980$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199908271846.UAA28409@horus.mch.sni.de> > Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory > operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register > at a time. TXA ? (Don't kill me :) [...using 'only' one ALU...] Not uncommon back than and very efficient. I still belive the 65xx is one of the best - the instruction set is well defined to get the maximum out of a minimal hardware. You can see the function blocks klick just by looking at the instructions. > [... about resources] Exact, thats the main Problem with most %used numbers. > I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find > that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU > design. Now, the Virtex CLB allows a single CLB to function as a two-bit > full-adder. If one wants the best performance/resource allocation tradeoff, > I'm nearly convinced that the best way might be to design it with a 2-bit > ALU slice because the resource consumption is small yet the delay for a > 2-bit registered implementation of an 8-bit ALU would be just as fast as an > 8-bit implementation because of the carry delay from stage to stage. It > appears to me that the rate-determining step, then, becomes how fast a clock > can be routed through the array. In the case of the 2-bit slice, it doesn't > have to propagate very far to get the job done. Well, after all, any serious attempt to bring a 6502 into a FPGA will be about speed - and saving resources might not be the primary goal. > With an 8-bit > implementation, there's a lot more routing delay, and at least four times as > much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU > is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) More than once ? Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 12:25:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <199908270006.UAA11444@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Aug 26, 99 08:06:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 710 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990827/0643e908/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 12:50:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <001a01bef02b$d2f6c440$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 26, 99 07:30:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2953 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990827/ccda3782/attachment.ksh From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Aug 27 14:20:45 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: TRW 8/28, socal meeting In-Reply-To: <199908250113.SAA27782@bart.allegro.com> References: <000401beee81$ff3fb670$212e2818@newcas1.de.home.com> Message-ID: Sorry to use list bandwidth, but what a week, and time is short. I won't be able to make it to TRW this month (yeah I know, more for all of you). Worse some kind of a SoCal meeting fizzled, ie 4 people responded, and I haven't even followed up on them. I barely have time to type this out, but I will be fussing around my garage after about 2 PM on Saturday, maybe Sunday, with trusty portable phone (714-771-7509). Also unfortunate I was unable to pry another 386 computer keyboard thing from the salvage joint (the new tech loves it and is upgrading them to 486 with bigger drives etc.). From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 27 15:44:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <000601bef0cd$0c1c5d60$0400c0a8@winbook> You're quite right, but I actually meant that there aren't any instructions which operate on more than one register at a time using the ALU with more than one register for inputs. If you consider the instructions which do use the ALU, you can see that a single register set, implemented as a RAM block would allow you to transfer from the register RAM outputs through the ALU and back into the registers in a single operation. That's what makes this architecture so thrifty, as it means that you can send the PCL through the ALU, adding a zero with carry set, and back to PCL, setting a carry flag if that's applicable and if carry's true, then adding zero with carry to PCH again storing the result in the source register. In reality there are several operations which use the register set as both source and destination, but none which use TWO registers as operands and then use the registers as a destination as well. What that allows is that you use a ram location as PCH, one as PCL, one as SP, and one as each of the registers, X, Y, and A. Because of the way the thing works, the logic paths are simple and straightforward to steer via a single data bus from the ALU back to the register inputs. That explains why there's an extra cycle needed whenever addressing across a page-boundary occurred. If you constrain your thinking to the logic components which were available back in the mid '70's, e.g. 74181, 74189 (for the register set), and consider what was on the data bus when a "float" was encountered during a read, namely the PCH, you begin to see the rudiments of this processor's internal architecture. Moreover, if you think of the "pipleining" used by the 650x in terms, not of synchronous pipleining as commonly used today, but of pipelining the control structure so that the data flow could be managed not with edge-triggered flip-flops but with gated latches, ala-7475, then you see how the timing was developed. The ALU was always a path for data from the registers to the registers' input bus. The data bus output latch was, of course taking inputs from this as well, and the output data, coincidentally followed the rising edge of the phase-2 clock by about the same amount of time as the valid addresses followed the falling edge. Since register-to-register operations had to flow through the ALU, and since the registers had a common input path, only one register could be targeted at a time. Since the register set is a RAM, you couldn't do it any other way. If separate registers had been used, the number of multiplexers would have been made the chip much larger. The operations on the accumulator which required either immediate data or data from memory were served by an impending operand register which was loaded from the last memory fetch prior to the execution of the operation. This action took a cycle, but didn't involve the data bus, so that what when the processor fetched the next opcode, knowing that the impending operand register was not involved in that operation and knowing that the one register which would be unaffected by an opcode fetch was the IOR. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory >> operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register >> at a time. > >TXA ? (Don't kill me :) > >[...using 'only' one ALU...] > >Not uncommon back than and very efficient. I still belive the 65xx >is one of the best - the instruction set is well defined to get >the maximum out of a minimal hardware. You can see the function >blocks klick just by looking at the instructions. > >> [... about resources] > >Exact, thats the main Problem with most %used numbers. > > >> I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find >> that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU >> design. Now, the Virtex CLB allows a single CLB to function as a two-bit >> full-adder. If one wants the best performance/resource allocation tradeoff, >> I'm nearly convinced that the best way might be to design it with a 2-bit >> ALU slice because the resource consumption is small yet the delay for a >> 2-bit registered implementation of an 8-bit ALU would be just as fast as an >> 8-bit implementation because of the carry delay from stage to stage. It >> appears to me that the rate-determining step, then, becomes how fast a clock >> can be routed through the array. In the case of the 2-bit slice, it doesn't >> have to propagate very far to get the job done. > >Well, after all, any serious attempt to bring a 6502 into a FPGA >will be about speed - and saving resources might not be the >primary goal. > >> With an 8-bit >> implementation, there's a lot more routing delay, and at least four times as >> much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU >> is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) > >More than once ? >Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 27 16:38:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <001101bef0d4$a8ea1a40$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded remarks below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:04 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> >> addressing only the comment quoted below . . . >> >> Really, Tony, I think you overemphasize the importance of the individual >> user to the semiconductor manufacturers. The level of competition for the >> FPGA business has escalated to where the development software, previously >> costing several K-bucks US, now costs as little as $100, and, in the case of >> ALTERA, is quite free. Now, that's not the complete package with all the >> bells and whistles, but it's enough to build a device from start to finish. > >You've misunderstood me... > >There are several points here. > >Firstly, it doesn't matter how cheap the software is if you can't use it. It depends more on how you define "can't" than anything else, though. >To run one of those 'free' development systems, I'd have to get a new PC >that I couldn't maintain and an 'OS' that I would find unpleasant to use. I had the same feeling when just about all the useable CAD/CAE software was limited to VMS and UNIX. I bought and limped along with what I could get for the PC, back then using DOS and customized drivers for the appropriate display, which, back then, alone, cost about as much as my then new logic analyzer. What that is, Tony, is a matter of preference. YOU have to decide where YOU spend your money. In yesterday's newspaper I noted that the local discount house (Best-Buy for those who care) was offering a major-brand 350 MHz Celeron-based computer system without monitor but with AGP video, 6.4 GB HDD, 64 MB memory, CDROM, FDD, v.90 modem, keyboard, all for $399 US. A really nice (I recently bought one when the "appropriate display" (19") mentioned above developed a margin problem.) 17" monitor for $199. That means that for what I typically earn in a couple or three days after taxes and expenses, I can buy a whole computer system capable of doing this FPGA stuff. I recently read that the folks who sell these FPGA's have no problem at all giving you the necessary data to enable you to configure their parts. They won't give you a disassembly tool or whatever that would be, but they'll tell you enough so you can build your own configuration tools to support their parts. They won't hold your hand and they won't debug your work, but they will give you a spec so you don't have to buy their software or use it. >The total cost would (instead) buy some useful physical test equipment or >tools. > I bought a 20-year old 250 MHz 'scope not long ago with what that system at Best Buy would cost. Now, I shopped for a year in order to find the thing, but that's what I got for $600. > >Secondly, I like all my software to be open-source so that I can fix >bugs. Now, I can quite understand why commercial software isn't like >this. What I am commenting on is the fact that I _can't_ write my own >FPGA tools if I wanted to. > All software is open-source if you have the dough to buy the sources. Not all of us are willing to pay the required 6.23*10^23 bucks for what we'd otherwise get for less than $1k for just the objects. > >Let me give you an example. If I want to program a PDP11 in assembler, I >can either buy the DEC assembler (which, quite rightly, costs money), or >I can get down the manual and either hand-assemble the code or write an >assembler myself. I can add in whatever features I want in the latter >case as well. > >With FPGA tools, you can't write your own. Manufacturers have given a >number of reasons, most of them (IMHO) bogus as to why they won't release >the configuration specs. But with one exception (the XC6200 series), now >discontinued, there has never been an FPGA (or CPLD) where you can go >from schematic/description to a finished chip without some 'undocumented' >process. It's like having a processor where the binary opcodes are not >documented anywhere, and where the manufacture actively prevents this >sort of information getting out. > Again, it's just a matter of preference. Most people get by this hurdle with little trouble. > >FWIW, I have 'hand assembled' configurations for the XC6216. It wasn't >that hard, and writing a few simple tools would have made it a lot easier. > > >> >> I really doubt that it would turn out to be illegal to take the old 11-70 or >> whatever schematic and essentially clone it in an FPGA, but I doubt a clever >> rebuilder would want to do that anyway. It might be either equally good in > >You wouldn't. FPGA design is most certainly not the same as TTL-type >design, and simply translating circuits will result in something that >doesn't work. > >> The technology in FPGA's these days is such that it enables devices to >> operate between 10 and 50 times the speed of the old TTL logic designed in > >Hmmm.. A good TTL design will go at 50MHz, no trouble. FPGAs are between >500MHz and 2.5GHz? That sounds high to me. It certainly sounds high >compared to the real-world speeds (not what the manufacturers claim) for >common FPGA devics. A factor of 2 or 3 up on TTL, maybe. > There's a brocheure lying about here somewhere from a company which offers a XILINX look-alike which operates with delays of about half those of the fastest XILINX, though there's some question about the universality of that claim, but they certainly explain why their routing delays are shorter. Prop-delays of 1ns are claimed for the combinatorial logic in several vendors' parts, and the claim of 25 MHz for 7400-series TTL was quite generous. It would propagate into a light load and single flops would keep up at 25 MHz. I remember a countdown chain which generated a bunch of system timing from a 24.576 MHz clock, which was a harmonic of nearly all the telecom clocks as well as baud rates. That one didn't work until one substituted 74S-series TTL. HTTL and LSTTL wouldn't do it. The clock-to-Q of the flops just wouldn't meet the required setup times. Now, it worked fine once we rebuilt the counter chain so it ran at half that rate. Lots of '70's TTL MSI would work at rates in excess of 30 MHz, but only for small circuits. You could run one shift register at that rate, but if you needed to shift longer words, you might be in trouble. It was even worse with counters. If you then needed to decode the outputs of a 16-bit counter . . . you see my point, I'm sure. These same problems are encountered in FPGA's, but the circuits whose timing is critical can be planned out in such a way that the penalties for routing delays are minimized. What's more, because adding a pipeline register doesn't mean putting another package on the board, you can do that. Pipeline registers increase operating frequency while increasing the latency. They make decoding much safer. >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:17:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <001101bef0d4$a8ea1a40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 27, 99 03:38:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990827/0aa9e338/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Aug 27 17:41:25 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's" (Aug 27, 20:46) References: <199908271846.UAA28409@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <9908272341.ZM4145@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Aug 27, 20:46, Hans Franke wrote: > Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's > > Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to memory > > operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one register > > at a time. > > TXA ? (Don't kill me :) And the indexed instructions such as ADC (nn,X), of course, and TSX, etc. > > much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the ALU > > is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this leads?) > > More than once ? > Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. Some of the indexed instructions do. Once to add the offset, and once for the operation requested, eg ADC (nn),Y. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From macierno at cvm.msstate.edu Fri Aug 27 19:19:46 1999 From: macierno at cvm.msstate.edu (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: mailing list down???? Message-ID: Is the mailing listt down, havn't seen any activity for the past day or so! mark acierno ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Aug 27 18:47:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: mailing list down???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, mark acierno wrote: > Is the mailing listt down, havn't seen any activity for the past day > or so! Just a lull. Be thankful. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 27 19:00:56 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <000c01bef0e9$0d56ef80$0400c0a8@winbook> please see comments embedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 4:41 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >On Aug 27, 20:46, Hans Franke wrote: >> Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> > Well, the 650x is a VERY thrifty architecture. It has no memory-to >memory >> > operations, nor does it have any operations involving more than one >register >> > at a time. >> >> TXA ? (Don't kill me :) > >And the indexed instructions such as ADC (nn,X), of course, and TSX, etc. > This is a case like the TXA, etc, which is a simple transfer from one register to another with no ALU operation. > >> > much delay per cycle in order to allow the carry to settle. Since the >ALU >> > is used more than once per machine cycle . . . (see where all this >leads?) >> >> More than once ? >> Maybe I'm just blind, but I cant see more than one ALU op per cycle. > Well, on each cycle it flows the PCL through the ALU, adding zero with carry. The indexing operations and stack pointer op's also do arithmetic on the ABL and SP. Likewise, the INC and DEC instructions flow data from the register block to the register block through the ALU. Still, there are no register operations which require access to more than one register's contents at a time. The critical issue being that the registers can simply be implemented in a RAM. In fact, it appears that the RAM block might best be implemented in an inverting RAM like the 74189 (actually a 16x4, but two would work) because the arithmetic unit might work quite well as a simple adder/subtractor, with a multiplexer as the shifter unit. The fact that this RAM has separate inputs and outputs makes the TTL model very simple. > >Some of the indexed instructions do. Once to add the offset, and once for >the operation requested, eg ADC (nn),Y. > The indexing operations involve arithmetic on memory address operands rather than on register contents. The instruction contains the absolute address or a pointer to it, and an index register contains an offset. Arithmetic is done on the address components and only on one element in the register set. Either one or two address bytes are part of the instruction, depending on the mode, and the index register contains the offset to be added to the low address byte either from the instruction or from the table to which a zero page pointer directs it and 16-bit arithmetic is done on that using only one byte from the register set. These indexed instructions using indirection take as many as 6 (7 if a page boundary is crossed) cycles. The arithmetic can always be done using the ALU, however. >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From edick at idcomm.com Fri Aug 27 19:31:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <001301bef0ec$e3be4c00$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, August 27, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> > >> >Firstly, it doesn't matter how cheap the software is if you can't use it. >> >> >> It depends more on how you define "can't" than anything else, though. > >"Can't" is quite simple : I can't execute the software on that >disk/CD-ROM on any computer that I currently own. Period. > >> >[...] > >> In yesterday's newspaper I noted that the local discount house (Best-Buy for >> those who care) was offering a major-brand 350 MHz Celeron-based computer >> system without monitor but with AGP video, 6.4 GB HDD, 64 MB memory, CDROM, >> FDD, v.90 modem, keyboard, all for $399 US. A really nice (I recently > >They're a little more in the UK, although I think I've seen similar >machines advertised here for \pounds 399 or thereabouts. > >> bought one when the "appropriate display" (19") mentioned above developed a >> margin problem.) 17" monitor for $199. That means that for what I typically >> earn in a couple or three days after taxes and expenses, I can buy a whole >> computer system capable of doing this FPGA stuff. > >OK for you. Remember I can't get a job. After 'essentials', I would have >to save for about a year to get a machine like that. And there are other >things I put somewhat higher on my priority list as I already have plenty >of useable computer systems for everything else I want to do. > Well, first of all, I think it's nice that the mfg's of these devices have made it possible to do this work on machines costing less than a year's pay, and if there were enough business to justify it, they'd make it possible for you to build their devices on your HP calculator or whatever you prefer. It's just a question of how badly you want to do it. If I didn't want to spend the necessary money, I'd not be able to do it either. Now, I don't know why you can't get a job. There are lots of people here in the US who are in the same boat. If you have some physical disability, or mental/emotional impairment, though, there are programs here and I'd be surprised if there weren't some similar programs in the UK to "help" you get a low-cost PC if there are any indications at all that you'd be able to produce useful work translatable in to substantial gainful activity with it at your disposal. However, if you can't get a job because you categorically refuse to learn to use the PC because you find the Microsoft OS repugnant, I'd predict you'll remain so. > >Please note, I am not saying that the FPGA manufacturers should support >all the possible choices of machine and OS. Just that I wish that _one_ >of them would provide enough information for me to support them myself. > The reality of the matter is that these device vendors, of whom I would assume it could be said they're in a good position to make such a determination, have decided that it's worth their effort to invest the effort and money in creating support tools for the PC running Windows 9x and not the PDP-8S or whatever, running something else. This is not my preference either, since I like and trust DOS much more than the WINDOWS varieties, but then, they no longer put out tools for the MAC either, not that I'd use one even if they were free. >> >> I recently read that the folks who sell these FPGA's have no problem at all >> giving you the necessary data to enable you to configure their parts. They >> won't give you a disassembly tool or whatever that would be, but they'll > >Interesting. That's exactly the opposite of my experiences with Xilinx >when I used the official toolkit in my last job (XC3000 and XC4000 parts >mostly). > >There was a _supplied_ program that would take a configuration bitstream >and turn it back into a CLB + interconnect map - essentially a >disassembler. Of course turning that map into a schematic was a lot of >work, but the 'secret' part was there. > >But no way would they tell us what any of the bits in the configuration >file actually meant. > >I am told they might have supplied some documentation under an NDA, but >that's no use for open-source software, of course. > Well, it's not likely that you'll encounter much cooperation in your effort to convince the world to share its secrets. These days, when patents are of no use because the market window is shorter than the delay getting to court, the only way people can defend what they perceive to be their turf is by keeping it "close to the vest" like a hand of cards. > >> >Secondly, I like all my software to be open-source so that I can fix >> >bugs. Now, I can quite understand why commercial software isn't like >> >this. What I am commenting on is the fact that I _can't_ write my own >> >FPGA tools if I wanted to. >> > >> All software is open-source if you have the dough to buy the sources. Not > .>Not really. Even if I could buy a source license, that wouldn't give me >the right to pass the sources around. About the only way to get to do >that is to buy the company (:-)). > It's absolutely open source, if that's how you want to handle it, once you buy the right to do so. I don't mean buy a copy. I mean buy ALL the rights. Once you've acquired all the rights, by paying for them, I doubt you'll want to give them away by making them freely distributable. >> all of us are willing to pay the required 6.23*10^23 bucks for what we'd >> otherwise get for less than $1k for just the objects. > >Again, I am not asking for the 'official' sources. Just for the ability >to write my own. > Perhaps if you inquire about obtaining those rights, you'll see what value they are perceived to represent. Dealing with the numbers helps put things in to prespective. I'm surprised that there was a commonly available scf2xnf (or whatever it was called) translator, since that essentially reverse engineered your product for your competitor, but it would surprise me even more for the vendor to provide you the ability to see how they've enhanced their parts if that's reflected in their configuration files. Nevertheless, perhaps you need to back away from your devotion to the absolute notion of fully open source in favor of a really efficient, particularly cost-efficient, PDP whatever you want to build. If you need to have sources in order to fix what you consider to be an annoying bug in the software tools with which the FPGA is to be devised, I'd point out that noone else is able to fix it either. Sometimes it's necessary to live with those "bugs" which annoy you most. > >-tony > From ds284 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 28 03:25:34 1999 From: ds284 at hotmail.com (d s) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FS: Old UNIX serverware for 386 cpu Message-ID: <19990828082534.76241.qmail@hotmail.com> FOR SALE: Approx. 18 pounds of software/manuals, consisting of two packages; all sells for one money. Best offer over $24 takes. Deadline for offers is September 11, 1999. * Retix Open Server 400 for UNIX MH-4410 ISC/SCO, Ver. 1.41 * Retix SMTP Gateway to X.400, Ver. 2.01 BOTH are provided on dual-format hi-density floppies. Software disk packages have been opened, but appear to show little usage. Sys. Requirements: ------------------ * SCO UNIX Sys. V/386, Rel. 3.2, Ver. 2.0 and 4.0 * Interactive UNIX Sys. V/386, Rel. 3.2, Ver. 2.2 and 3.0 and 386 cpu, 4 or 8 Mb RAM, 100 Mb disk space, including OS; hi-density floppy Ships from Laurel, Maryland 20707 USA only, please. ============================================================= ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 11:49:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <001301bef0ec$e3be4c00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 27, 99 06:31:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4846 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990828/0f07490f/attachment.ksh From hansp at digiweb.com Sat Aug 28 13:16:00 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's References: <000601bef0ad$63631980$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <37C82760.1ABB1854@digiweb.com> Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find > that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU > design. No-one has mentioned the free IP project at which has a VHLD implementation of a 6502 now available. No idea of performance on this, I have just begun to dabble in this area. I too bemoan the fact the full configuration specs are not availble for the FPGA's. A few years ago I was working for a company that had a Xilinx part monitoring a processor bus. We wanted to dynamically reconfigure the FPGA so that we could change the bus pattern it triggered on - no joy though geting the necessary info. I see implementing old processors in FPGA's as a way of preserving those the design of those processors. Yes, we would all prefer to have an original, but practically speaking that is not possible. For some uses, a modern re-implementation or an emulator is better than nothing at all. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 28 15:00:43 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <000801bef190$1c633180$0400c0a8@winbook> please see my embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 11:27 AM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> >Please note, I am not saying that the FPGA manufacturers should support >> >all the possible choices of machine and OS. Just that I wish that _one_ >> >of them would provide enough information for me to support them myself. >> > >> The reality of the matter is that these device vendors, of whom I would >> assume it could be said they're in a good position to make such a >> determination, have decided that it's worth their effort to invest the >> effort and money in creating support tools for the PC running Windows 9x and >> not the PDP-8S or whatever, running something else. This is not my >> preference either, since I like and trust DOS much more than the WINDOWS >> varieties, but then, they no longer put out tools for the MAC either, not >> that I'd use one even if they were free. >> >> > >You are missing the point. I am not asking that the FPGA companies >produce/support tools that run on . I am simply asking that >they allow me to create said tools. > Unfortunately, your desire to do that is in the toiled right along with the manufacturers' competitors' wish to learn what changes were made in order to field the last batch of "enhancements." Their perception is that too much detail about the parts' configuration details is too much detail about the inner workings of their product. It's their intellectual property, so if they wish to be able to protect it in court when someone steals is by whatever means, they have to show they've applied due dilligence throughout their operation to protect that information. If they don't, they run the risk that a competitor's lawyer will say, in court, that this information was not valuable enough to protect in the one instance, so why are they upset that someone acquired it through other means. It's a valid point. That's why many vendors don't give "free" copies of software anymore. The courts have found that if your product is valuable enough to prosecute someone for "stealing" it, then it should be so valuable that it can't be given away. Now, I'm not sure I buy all that, but that's the direction things seem to run. > >Think of microcontrollers for the moment, particularly the Microchip PIC. >I use that chip a lot. Now, I can either use the (free) Microchip >assembler/simulator that runs on PCs, or I can take the databook off the >shelf and write my own assembler/simulator. The necessary information is >given to do that. > >There is another reason I want this information. I want to create >self-modifying circuits, reconfigurable CPUs, etc. And I can't do that if >I am forced to use the manufacturers tools for every change in configuration. > > Not all vendors will give you all the necessary information to do that. Most makers of microcontrollers will, though. >Most (all?) of the existing work on such systems was done using the >now-discontinued Xilinx XC6200 series. Those were fully documented (I >have the data sheets). > > >[...] > >> >There was a _supplied_ program that would take a configuration bitstream >> >and turn it back into a CLB + interconnect map - essentially a >> >disassembler. Of course turning that map into a schematic was a lot of >> >work, but the 'secret' part was there. >> > >> >But no way would they tell us what any of the bits in the configuration >> >file actually meant. >> > >> >I am told they might have supplied some documentation under an NDA, but >> >that's no use for open-source software, of course. >> > >> Well, it's not likely that you'll encounter much cooperation in your effort >> to convince the world to share its secrets. These days, when patents are of > >Hmm... Since the architecture of the FPGA is already pretty well >described in the databook, releasing exactly how the bitstream configures >the chips is not giving that much more away. > >[...] > >> I'm surprised that there was a commonly available scf2xnf (or whatever it >> was called) translator, since that essentially reverse engineered your >> product for your competitor, but it would surprise me even more for the >> vendor to provide you the ability to see how they've enhanced their parts if >> that's reflected in their configuration files. > >The Xilinx tools I used (admittedly a few years old now) had a program >that let you edit the CLB/interconnect map yourself. And a program to >turn a bitmap into whatever file (xnf?) that this program would work with. > >Of course reverse-engineering a schematic from the CLB map is at least as >hard as reverse-engineering a large board of TTL chips. So it's not that >much help in copying a competitor's design. > Back in the early '80's I found that dirt simple. I can remember many a trade-show where my partner would, after we had examined a new product, buy me a cup of coffee and hand me a couple of extra napkins so I could draw a schematic of what I perceived the "new" product to be. Knowing how things worked and what the various TTL parts did made that into child's play. As a result, our products were almost always "better" than theirs. > >Any changes in the internals of the part (as it appears to the user - say >extra interconnect resources) were clearly visible using these tools and >were (IIRC) documented in the data sheets. As I said above, the data >sheets I have are reasonably details on what the chip contains and how it >works, but don't give the information to actually use it. > > >> Nevertheless, perhaps you need to back away from your devotion to the >> absolute notion of fully open source in favor of a really efficient, >> particularly cost-efficient, PDP whatever you want to build. If you need to > >I don't particularly want to make a PDP-anything. And if I did, I >certainly wouldn't use an FPGA... > You'd only do that if you intended to make your version better, faster, and less costly, along with less trouble to repair. > >If I use FPGAs (myself, for one of my own designs), I would want to >exploit the fact that they are reconfigurable parts. In other words, to >change bits of the circuit as the machine is running. Not just use them >as a replacement for a lot of TTL. > >> have sources in order to fix what you consider to be an annoying bug in the >> software tools with which the FPGA is to be devised, I'd point out that > >Hmmm... I've spent far too many long nights as a result of bugs in FPGA >tools. I'd much rather be able to see what they're doing to my circuit. > Well, if you're getting paid on time and materials, then it's someone else's worry, isn't it, if they specify a device with buggy software support. If you have your way, you specify a product which doesn't have those problems. > >> noone else is able to fix it either. Sometimes it's necessary to live with >> those "bugs" which annoy you most. > >Ah... But I have this ingrained objection to 'living with bugs'. If I >have a product (hardware, software, whatever) that doesn't work as I want >it to (or doesn't work correctly), I modify it. Period. > Perhaps that has more than anything else to do with your inability to find work. If you're so prone to get caught up in "fixing" what others don't even perceive to be broken, that you can't work with those tools, perhaps it's your outlook that needs fixing. In any case, perhaps a look in your own closet is warranted. I know I wouldn't hire someone who was not at all concerned about protecting intellectual property I had bought and paid for and who felt that it was more important to make a board easy to clone that it was to make it lower in cost and more reliable. Don't you think your outlook has some questionable perspective issues? If you're an engineer, your job is to solve the problems which confront you today with the resources at your disposal today, and not to lament the fact that someone built the XYZ round instead of square so it would stack neatly, and not to dream up technology which isn't yet commercially viable. Today's software isn't bug free, nor is it "open" enough to suit you. That is what's on the table, though. Refusing to use current hardware/software because it's not "open" enough isn't going to put a roast on the dinner table next Sunday, either. Maybe your talents would be better spent figuring out a better way to do what "the boss" wants, rather than trying to figure out a better thing to do. It's pretty apparent you have a good understanding of how the things work. It's also apparent you're capable of making the necessary leap. If you figure out a better way to do something on one of those computers you don't want with that OS you dislike, and sell it to .001% of all the users out there, you'll be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. (You'll also develop different priorities where intellectual property is concerned!) OTOH, if you make an improvement to all the PDP-anythings still in use out there and sell it for 10x what it's worth, you'll still be as poor as ever. (well . . . maybe not poor . . . but the tax collector still won't remember you by name.) I haven't seen an FPGA (yet) which has "soft" configuration which can be changed on the fly. I think Triscend (www.triscend.com) may be heading in that direction, together with their 805x core. I've read a little about it, but as far as I know, the way to change it is to reset and reload the part, perhaps from a different configuration file. One thing I find shameful about the FPGA makers is that they have all this secrecy about one aspect or another of THEIR intellectual property as pertains to their parts, yet they do absolutely nothing to protect YOUR IP as it sits in a completely visible medium. If they would at least provide a feature to allow you to flash in a persistent encryption circuit not detectable from the outside but permanently associated with a given design . . . >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 28 15:13:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <000b01bef191$de257020$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not nearly so concerned about the implementation details. Frankly, the FPGA vendors are all heading off in the wrong direction for implementation of those "old" processors and their peripherals. They give you 10 times I/O's you need and only half the routing resources. I'd much rather look at a plcc44 housing a 2500 CLB FPGA rather than a 500-pin FPGA housing what they claim is a 400K-gate equivalent. What's more, I'd rather see a 2 million gate "sea" of gates than a few dozen CLB's or macrocells, providet there were yards and yards of interconnection resources. That's not where they're headed. They want you to buy 32 ram bits with which to build a single nand gate. The PLD vendors aren't any better . . . their devices have always had too many inputs and not nearly enough buried resources for my taste. If I have to "do something" to a couple of inputs based on what a couple more do, then they work OK, but if I have to do a bunch of well-defined things based on what one input does, and generate one output based on a complex sequence of processes, always the same, however, then I have no choice other than the Scenix SX, which is a microcontroller. PALs and PLDs have never had the right input/output pin ratio, nor have they often had sufficient internally buried registers. Crying about it won't fix it, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans B Pufal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 12:13 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I've taken a good hard look at implementing the 6500 core in XILINX and find >> that performance, which is VERY much of interest, is impacted most by ALU >> design. > >No-one has mentioned the free IP project at >which has a VHLD implementation of a 6502 now available. No idea of >performance on this, I have just begun to dabble in this area. > >I too bemoan the fact the full configuration specs are not availble for >the FPGA's. >A few years ago I was working for a company that had a Xilinx part >monitoring a processor bus. We wanted to dynamically reconfigure the >FPGA so that we could change the bus pattern it triggered on - no joy >though geting the necessary info. > >I see implementing old processors in FPGA's as a way of preserving those >the design of those processors. Yes, we would all prefer to have an >original, but practically speaking that is not possible. > >For some uses, a modern re-implementation or an emulator is better than >nothing at all. > >Regards > >_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- >Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Aug 28 15:18:30 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: HELP for ML command In-Reply-To: <199908240214.LAA26816@ibmsv.abit.co.jp> from "Takeo Hiyama" at Aug 24, 99 11:17:29 am Message-ID: <199908282018.NAA17505@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Hi Dear > > Please advice for Mailing list usage to change the mail address. > > Thank you very much. > > Takeo Hi, I run the list. I'm out of town right now so I have to be quick. You can do one of two things: 1) Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with any subject. Inside the body of the message write the lines get user.ref help That will automatically send you some instructions about changing your address. 2) Send me private mail telling me your old address and the new address you want to change to. Sorry, I don't think I'll be able to get to it before next Monday or Tuesday because I'm on vacation. My e-mail address is dpeschel@u.washington.edu. Good luck, -- Derek From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Sat Aug 28 15:46:50 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > You are missing the point. I am not asking that the FPGA companies > produce/support tools that run on . I am simply asking that > they allow me to create said tools. > Given the information you want, it would be fairly easy to reverse engineer someone elses IP core and repackage it as your own. You could purchase the rights to use someone elses 8051 uC core in your Altera device. The core is delivered to you as an encrypted, compiled, gate level description. You compile and fit it into a (fully documented) part, read the bitstream, and generate essentially a compiled, gate level description. Re-encrypt it, and sell it as your own. Since it is encrypted, the original IP owner can't decrypt it and verify it is theirs. This requires very little engineering work on your part. > Think of microcontrollers for the moment, particularly the Microchip PIC. > I use that chip a lot. Now, I can either use the (free) Microchip > assembler/simulator that runs on PCs, or I can take the databook off the > shelf and write my own assembler/simulator. The necessary information is > given to do that. > True, except for "secure" microcontrollers that are being sold into smart cards and security systems. You have to convince the uC manufacture you are a real company that is going to buy millions of their chips. This makes it much more difficult for a hacker to read the EPROM and look for security holes. > There is another reason I want this information. I want to create > self-modifying circuits, reconfigurable CPUs, etc. And I can't do that if > I am forced to use the manufacturers tools for every change in configuration. > This is a very valid reason. Have you asked for the information on that basis? And convinced the company you are for real? This involves convincing the tech support grunt answering the phone you really should be allowed to talk to an aps engineer, and possiblly even a design engineer. The documentation exists (the hardware guys didn't write the code), you just have to social engineer your way to it. > Most (all?) of the existing work on such systems was done using the > now-discontinued Xilinx XC6200 series. Those were fully documented (I > have the data sheets). > This implies there wasn't a good reason to continue supplying the documentation to the public. Too many idiots trying to write their own tools and calling tech support hourly when it didn't work? > > Hmm... Since the architecture of the FPGA is already pretty well > described in the databook, releasing exactly how the bitstream configures > the chips is not giving that much more away. > But it is information, and companies get rich selling information. clint From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Sat Aug 28 15:54:47 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <000801bef190$1c633180$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > please see my embedded comments below. > > Dick > > I haven't seen an FPGA (yet) which has "soft" configuration which can be > changed on the fly. I think Triscend (www.triscend.com) may be heading in > that direction, together with their 805x core. I've read a little about it, > but as far as I know, the way to change it is to reset and reload the part, > perhaps from a different configuration file. > I saw a blurb about that several years ago in one of the trade rags. Basically, the part was sector based (not their name for it). You could reload a portion of the FPGA while the rest continued to operate. The example that was given was loading different image processing algorithms into the chip while the rest of the chip continued to pull in and output the video stream. > > One thing I find shameful about the FPGA makers is that they have all this > secrecy about one aspect or another of THEIR intellectual property as > pertains to their parts, yet they do absolutely nothing to protect YOUR IP > as it sits in a completely visible medium. If they would at least provide a > feature to allow you to flash in a persistent encryption circuit not > detectable from the outside but permanently associated with a given design . > . . Publishing what each bit in the bitstream did would get your competitor half way to having a schematic of your design. clint From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 14:24:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <37C82760.1ABB1854@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Aug 28, 99 08:16:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990828/fe6d440b/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Aug 28 17:01:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question Message-ID: <000901bef1a0$e987b900$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 3:00 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question > > > >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> please see my embedded comments below. >> >> Dick >> >I saw a blurb about that several years ago in one of the trade rags. >Basically, the part was sector based (not their name for it). You could >reload a portion of the FPGA while the rest continued to operate. The >example that was given was loading different image processing algorithms >into the chip while the rest of the chip continued to pull in and output >the video stream. > I've see writing, but not authoritative writing about this. I don't consider marketing departments capable of authoritative writing, by the way. > >> One thing I find shameful about the FPGA makers is that they have all this >> secrecy about one aspect or another of THEIR intellectual property as >> pertains to their parts, yet they do absolutely nothing to protect YOUR IP >> as it sits in a completely visible medium. If they would at least provide a >> feature to allow you to flash in a persistent encryption circuit not >> detectable from the outside but permanently associated with a given design . >> . . > >Publishing what each bit in the bitstream did would get your competitor >half way to having a schematic of your design. > >clint > That's not as much a problem as allowing him to dupe your board (Plenty of PC market boards have just the one major ASIC and a large and price-sensitive market which a $1 lower price with take over.) and the contents of your configuration EEPROM, then buy the same part from XILINX or whoever supplies your parts, build them down the very street in TAIPEI from where yours are made, then sell your work to the public, documentation and all, leaving you with a market saturated with counterfeits of your product and a HUGE support burden to pay for with your non-profits. > Dick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 17:40:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <000801bef190$1c633180$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 28, 99 02:00:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 10606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990828/1589c224/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 17:52:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <000b01bef191$de257020$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 28, 99 02:13:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990828/a9d17cd5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 18:08:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Aug 28, 99 02:46:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3898 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990829/252fff51/attachment.ksh From class at fliptronics.com Sat Aug 28 21:08:44 1999 From: class at fliptronics.com (Cassic Comp Reader) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question References: Message-ID: <37C8962C.1DD6EFBF@fliptronics.com> While the thread has wandered far from the subject line, I am compelled to respond to some of this. Please Tony, this is not an attack on you. There is a lot of mis-information about FPGAs IP, software, and architecture. This thread has just exceeded my "sit back and read" threshold. Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, the real point is that certainly for Xilinx FPGAs, if you buy the > official tools you get a program to 'reverse engineer' a bitstream back > to the CLB map. Converting that to a schematic is still a non-trivial task... This is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. There is NO tool that can reverse engineer the bitstream to anything. Neither internal to Xilinx or external (and announced). There is ONE instance where the bitstream was "forward" engineered to find the mapping between design primitives and the resultant bitstream, and this was done by a company called Neocad, and they were acquired by Xilinx. The process they used did not have the capability of taking an existing design bitstream, and decoding this into any type of design database. The final translation from design database (NCD in current tools, LCA in prior generation) to bitstream is unidirectional. If you want to make changes to your design, you make them to the design database. If you desperately want to make design changes to the bitstream, Xilinx provides as part of the standard tool chain, LL files that point you to some but not all bits in the bitstream (LUT bits, and some FF bits. NO routing bits). Xilinx also provides a tool called JBITS, which can also modify the bitstream, and might be used to create a reverse engineering tool, but this has not been done to my knowledge. With regard to the "and announced" above, it is possible that an organization like the NSA may have done something like this, but they haven't told me about it. Even if such reverse engineering tool existed, you would end up with a CLB map, which I agree would be non-trivial to get into a useful schematic. > Not just me, I know of research groups who are having problems with this > due to the loss of the XC6200s... While the research groups that weren't distracted by XC6200, and continued with the XC4000 and its descendants, have not wasted time screwing around with tools, and have gone on to do some real useful stuff. See the proceedings of the annual IEEE FCCM conferences. > And yes, I've tried. The policy is that this information will not be > available, except possibly under an NDA (which would have been no use to > me). Flip-flop and LUT position in bitstream for an existing design: Directly avail in LL file. FF and LUT position for all bitstreams (alg for calculating it you self) Avail under NDA. Mode control, some more I/O info, but not routing info: Avail under a tougher NDA. The whole lot: Avail under a very tough NDA. > > > Most (all?) of the existing work on such systems was done using the > > > now-discontinued Xilinx XC6200 series. Those were fully documented (I > > > have the data sheets). This product has not been discontinued. At last report, Xilinx said that parts would continue to be available to anyone that wanted to buy them. Further development of the family has stopped. Further development of the support software has stopped, but that is not an issue, because you plan to write your own. see: http://www.vcc.com/RPU.html#anchor581456 status http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf data sheet http://www.xilinx.com/techdocs/htm_index/utils_6200.htm > > This implies there wasn't a good reason to continue supplying the > > documentation to the public. Too many idiots trying to write their > > own tools and calling tech support hourly when it didn't work? Unknown. Data sheet is still available from http://www.vcc.com/Papers/6200.pdf and from Xilinx by request. > The official reason why the XC6200 was dropped was because they didn't > sell enough of them. This could have been due to the fact that no > distributor that I 'phoned had ever heard of them. It could have been due > to the fact that they were so differnt from other Xilinx parts that they > didn't really do the same job, and people didn't realise what they'd be > useful for. Or maybe the real reason for dropping them is totally > different anyway. > -tony Or maybe, they didn't sell enough. If the only people buying a chip is university researchers, in 1-10 piece quantities, it is not a viable product. From rws at enteract.com Sat Aug 28 23:02:05 1999 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <000801bef190$1c633180$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > please see my embedded comments below. Would it not be easier to simply delete the superfluous quoted lines, rather than re-send the whole thing? (I assume, perhaps wrongly, that you're using some glass tty. If you're using a actual hardcopy terminal, I take back what I said. This is classiccmp, after all.) A few snippets of your past messages (I hope I haven't impaired the meaning of any by taking it out of context): > field the last batch of "enhancements." Their perception is that too much > detail about the parts' configuration details is too much detail about the > >> Well, it's not likely that you'll encounter much cooperation in your > effort > >> to convince the world to share its secrets. These days, when patents are > of > >> Nevertheless, perhaps you need to back away from your devotion to the > >> absolute notion of fully open source in favor of a really efficient, > >> particularly cost-efficient, PDP whatever you want to build. If you need > You'd only do that if you intended to make your version better, faster, and > less costly, along with less trouble to repair. > >> noone else is able to fix it either. Sometimes it's necessary to live > with > >> those "bugs" which annoy you most. > Perhaps that has more than anything else to do with your inability to find > work. If you're so prone to get caught up in "fixing" what others don't > even perceive to be broken, that you can't work with those tools, perhaps > it's your outlook that needs fixing. In any case, perhaps a look in your > own closet is warranted. I know I wouldn't hire someone who was not at all > concerned about protecting intellectual property I had bought and paid for > and who felt that it was more important to make a board easy to clone that > it was to make it lower in cost and more reliable. Don't you think your > outlook has some questionable perspective issues? > > If you're an engineer, your job is to solve the problems which confront you > today with the resources at your disposal today, and not to lament the fact > that someone built the XYZ round instead of square so it would stack neatly, > and not to dream up technology which isn't yet commercially viable. Today's > software isn't bug free, nor is it "open" enough to suit you. That is > what's on the table, though. Refusing to use current hardware/software > because it's not "open" enough isn't going to put a roast on the dinner > table next Sunday, either. > out there, you'll be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams. (You'll also > develop different priorities where intellectual property is concerned!) The above missives show some important points about you, such as: - You support the "strict union" mentality ("I was hired to do this job, and this is the only job I'll do. Even if it would save my employer and our customer time and money if I moved a wastebasket over 3 feet so the next load of widgets could come in, I am a widget-repairman, not a wastebasket-mover. The wastebasket-mover has to make a living too. Oh well, time to sit back and wait 3 hours for him to arrive.") To all of those who belong to a union as a matter of course and who do NOT act like that, I am not referring to you. - You believe that making money doing something you don't like is inherently better than doing something you like and not making money. Or, more broadly, money must rule the world and all its constituents. - You believe that people's "need to know" information must be tightly regulated, and that bad things come about when people get information they don't "need" to have. Sure, when these people are your competitors, you don't want them to have it, but stealing is stealing- if they end up stealing your product, they've broken the law. - You think that newer designs are necessarily better than older ones, newer hardware/older, newer OS's/older, etc. At work, my (company-provided) computer was changed from Windows 95 to 98 to 2000 recently. This involved some downtime, so I asked why this upgrade was needed. The answer was an impatient, indignant "because it's newer". It worked perfectly fine before and the only reason you're 'upgrading' it is something new came out? "right." 2000 kept crashing and was about 3 times slower than 98, so I convinced them (with great difficulty) to change it back. - You think in any disagreement, only one person can possibly be right, and you're not wrong. Now, people like you who possess the first four make the world diverse, but the last one is what makes arguing with you like arguing with a brick wall. If anything I've said about you is completely untrue, tell me and I'll be glad to retract it and apologize for it. Otherwise, I think I've got you figured out; I work with someone like you. Thank God he's quitting in a month when his contract is up. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 29 13:34:35 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: Free DMF32 Dist Panel Message-ID: <990829143435.23200759@trailing-edge.com> Cleaning up the piles of stuff here, and decided to find something a good home rather than tossing it into another pile: Free to the first to offer to pay shipping ($3.20 USPS priority mail inside the US): A genuine DMF32 distribution panel, DEC part number 70-18754. Perfect for anyone with a DMF32 but without the cab kit! No cables included. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Aug 29 14:00:36 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FS cheeep-Lotus Aproach 2.0 for Windows, new in box Message-ID: <37C98353.E274290D@bigfoot.com> Still have a sealed copy of Lotus Appraoch 2.0 Database for Windows....and no use for it. It says it has both 5.25" (1.2mb) and 3.5" (1.44mb) disks. It states 286 or higher, Win 3.0 or higher, hard disk, EGA or better video, mouse, 2 mb RAM minimum.. It says it's compatible with files from dBase III & IV, Paradox, FoxPro, Oracle SQL 6.0 and SQL Server databases in native format.. It also states that's it's network compatible with Noverll Netware and Netware Lite, MS Lan Manager, Banyan VINES and LANtastic networks. Allows grpaihics imports in BMP, TIFF, PCX, WMF and EPS. $5.00 plus whatever the postage would be and it's yours. Drop me a direct note if interested. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 29 12:42:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <37C8962C.1DD6EFBF@fliptronics.com> from "Cassic Comp Reader" at Aug 28, 99 07:08:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990829/d56175a7/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 29 19:53:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: haggling (was Re: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)) In-Reply-To: (blstuart@bellsouth.net) References: Message-ID: <19990830005307.25058.qmail@brouhaha.com> Brian wrote: > Several years ago an old friend from college, my wife and I were strolling > around a hamfest and came across a rather nice 19" equipment rack. It was > about 6' tall, had fans in the top and hinged doors on both sides and the > back. The rollers and paint were even in good condition. After chatting a > bit, the seller said we should make an offer. While I was pondering if he > would take $50 or $100 for it and if I could justify that (I was in grad > school at the time), my wife piped up and asked "How about $15?" My college > chum and I just stood dumbfounded while the seller thought for a second and > said "Ok." And that's how I ended up with my rack. I've found that making lowball offers sometimes is the *best* way to get things from certain surplus outfits. Two places that I frequent seem to have a tendency to accept offers for less than $25, but reject offers above that amount (on similar sorts of items). My guess is that if you offer over $25, they start to think that the item is valuable and that they should get a lot of money for it. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 29 20:24:09 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199908270006.UAA11724@world.std.com>, Message-ID: <19990830012409.25160.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > I'd start with a 32bit PDP-8 (just add 20 more bits on the right side). and in another posting: > Me I'd do a stretch-8 for fun. though yours sounds interesting too. A Stretch-8 would require too much time spent on hacking -8 software for my taste. Why not just build the equivalent of one of the DEC 18-bit family members (PDP-4, -7, -9, or -15), since the PDP-5 and -8 are basically a 12-bit version of the PDP-4. Then your project is at least compatible with something, and can run some existing software (operating system, macro assembler, Fortran). From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 29 20:45:24 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990830014524.25257.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > There is another reason I want this information. I want to create > self-modifying circuits, reconfigurable CPUs, etc. And I can't do that if > I am forced to use the manufacturers tools for every change in configuration. Most FPGAs can't be used in that manner in a practical fasion anyhow. Normally you have to put the FPGA into a special programming mode, during which it loads its configuriation and is otherwise non-functional. The closest you could get to self-modifying is to have an FPGA configuration that computes a new configuration, writes it to external RAM, and then resets itself (forcing a reconfiguration). This would almost certainly require at least a small amount of external dedicated logic to select which configuration memory to use and to control the timing of the update. There was a line of FPGAs specifically designed for reconfigurable computing; it divided up the FPGA into sections and allowed reconfiguration at section granularity. I think it was made by either Actel or Atmel. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 29 20:53:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990830015305.25297.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I've yet to find a microcontroller where the binary opcodes aren't > documented. Aside from the previously mentioned smartcard chips, there have been several others such as the Motorola MC143120/3150 and Toshiba TMPN3120/3150. Sigh. They're not too exciting now, but I might have designed them into things years ago if Echelon hadn't been such secretive jerks. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 29 21:01:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: haggling (was Re: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)) Message-ID: <990829220126.232007af@trailing-edge.com> >> back. The rollers and paint were even in good condition. After chatting a >> bit, the seller said we should make an offer. While I was pondering if he >> would take $50 or $100 for it and if I could justify that (I was in grad >> school at the time), my wife piped up and asked "How about $15?" My college >> chum and I just stood dumbfounded while the seller thought for a second and >> said "Ok." And that's how I ended up with my rack. > >I've found that making lowball offers sometimes is the *best* way to get >things from certain surplus outfits. Two places that I frequent seem to have >a tendency to accept offers for less than $25, but reject offers above that >amount (on similar sorts of items). My guess is that if you offer over $25, >they start to think that the item is valuable and that they should get a lot >of money for it. OTOH, I've learned that if you want to get rid of something, you shouldn't necessarily just say "it's free, come and get it". After all, many potential takers think that if it's free, it can't be all that desirable. But attach a price tag and all of a sudden folks want to come up and wheel and deal! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Aug 29 21:51:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:03 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <199908300251.WAA20579@world.std.com> I'd start with a 32bit PDP-8 (just add 20 more bits on the right side). Me I'd do a stretch-8 for fun. though yours sounds interesting too. < Whether this is correct or not, the real problem lies in that the data is available in the clear by virtue of the fact the unmodified data travels into the FPGA in a predfined way, allowing a simple and direct copying process to be set up. No reverse engineering is needed, just a rote copy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 1:05 PM Subject: Re: PDP era and a question >> > Anyway, the real point is that certainly for Xilinx FPGAs, if you buy the >> > official tools you get a program to 'reverse engineer' a bitstream back >> > to the CLB map. Converting that to a schematic is still a non-trivial task... From jritorto at nut.net Mon Aug 30 00:05:40 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: tek4015 Message-ID: does anyone have a pointer to programming information for this beast? I want a nice Mandlebrot set on my tek to amuse my guests. :-) jake From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Aug 30 03:07:00 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Fw: WANTED: 88110 docs -- specifically MC88110UM/AD Message-ID: <012c01bef2be$a692d020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Hi all, If anyone can help this guy, please contact him direct, I just fwd the msg from the ng he posted in.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Briggs Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation,comp.sys.m88k,misc.forsale.computers.othe r.misc Sent: Sunday, 29 August 1999 9:05 Subject: WANTED: 88110 docs -- specifically MC88110UM/AD > I'm starting work on free OS port for Data General 88k systems. I'd > like to locate the user's manual for the Motorola 88110 processor. A > kind person has loaned me one for a while, but I'd really like to have > my own copy to use/mark up/whatever. It's no longer in print and not > available from the Motorola Literature Center. I already have the 88100 > and 88200 docs. > > If you have this book or know someone who might have this book getting > dusty on some shelf somewhere, please contact me. I'm willing to pay > something for shipping and something for someone's trouble in digging it > up and mailing it. > > Thanks, > -allen > From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Aug 30 10:30:49 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <01JFDGMM19JA9R3CR7@cc.usu.edu> > > Several reasons. [SNIP] I would want a > machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. Bear in mind that some really interesting parts useful for this sort of thing (high-speed synchronous SRAMs, for example) come in x9 flavors to support parity on x8 byte machines. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 30 11:24:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <01JFDGMM19JA9R3CR7@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: > > Several reasons. [SNIP] I would want a > > machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. > > Bear in mind that some really interesting parts useful for this sort of > thing (high-speed synchronous SRAMs, for example) come in x9 flavors > to support parity on x8 byte machines. I was refering to common parts other than rams like alus and registers. allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 30 12:00:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: WD1002-05 Doc Message-ID: <000801bef309$34815920$0400c0a8@winbook> A couple of weeks have elapsed since someone on this list asked for documents on the WD1002-05 Winchester/Floppy controller board. I have scanned my "preliminary" document and can make it available via email. It's "cooking" into final form on another machine right now, but I'd expect that since there are 44 pages the picture (TIF file) will be something just under 1 MB/page. This is a really big file and I may reduce its volume by converting it to compressed PCX format. If you want this document, please let me know how you'd like to have it formatted. Dick From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 30 12:43:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <199908300251.WAA20579@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:51:08 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199908300251.WAA20579@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990830174357.28674.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Several reasons. Don't know the 18 bit machines at all. They're wide PDP-8s. Or rather, the PDP-8 is a narrow PDP-4. > I would want a machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. Doesn't particularly help if you're putting it in an FPGA. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 30 13:03:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <19990830174357.28674.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > They're wide PDP-8s. Or rather, the PDP-8 is a narrow PDP-4. I know that! ;) what I don't know is all them little details I know so well for PDP-8. > > I would want a machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. > > Doesn't particularly help if you're putting it in an FPGA. Why would I want to use them... &-) I was thinking interms of machine that work in "ttl" or maybe GALs. FPGAs want those funny sockets to hold all those pins and they are a bear to to probe a particular gate under a scope after delidding it. ;) Actually a discussion of PDP-4/7/9/15 would be of interest as those are thos ones I really do not know beyond trivial. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 30 13:26:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <000f01bef315$2be14940$0400c0a8@winbook> There are packaging options which might be utilized to help you in "scoping" out your circuit. One of many complaints I have about FPGA's is that they have far too many pins to suit me. Well, since there are lots of pins, you can obtain a socketable adapter for the package and then work your way through the design, changing the "bond-out" by routing the signals you want to compare to I/O blocks associated with otherwise unused pins. That way you might be able to help yourself figure out strange timing effects between internal and external signals, perhaps even allowing you to see the inner workings at least to some extent. The handiest package I've run into for these is the PLCC84, for which you can obtain a socket compatible with a wire-wrap adapter. That would allow you to do what I described above without interfering with the 40-odd signals you might want to inject into your existing application. This same thing might be achievable with a larger package, but I have some doubts about making the transition from the FPGA package to a wire-wrap socket. You might have to make an adapter PCB or buy one from Samtech or Emulation Technology. Those get expensive. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 12:03 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's > >> They're wide PDP-8s. Or rather, the PDP-8 is a narrow PDP-4. > >I know that! ;) what I don't know is all them little details I know so >well for PDP-8. > >> > I would want a machine that would fit in nx4 or nx8 format parts. >> >> Doesn't particularly help if you're putting it in an FPGA. > >Why would I want to use them... &-) I was thinking interms of machine >that work in "ttl" or maybe GALs. FPGAs want those funny sockets to hold >all those pins and they are a bear to to probe a particular gate under a >scope after delidding it. ;) > >Actually a discussion of PDP-4/7/9/15 would be of interest as those are >thos ones I really do not know beyond trivial. > >Allison > From steve.lubbers at barco.com Mon Aug 30 13:29:48 1999 From: steve.lubbers at barco.com (steve.lubbers@barco.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: RX02 Head Gap adjustment Message-ID: Hi All, From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Aug 30 13:52:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Proprietary FPGA data In-Reply-To: References: <001101bef0d4$a8ea1a40$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830115007.00a9aac0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Tony commented that he won't use parts where he can't run the tools on his computers. Fair enough. The discussion of "proprietaryness" of the Xilinx parts also came up. Its like this: The _users_ of the parts like that they are proprietary since it makes it harder to reverse engineer the system. Eventually, hardware users will learn the awful truth that software library vendors have learned, which is that it isn't profitible to try to "hide" something that an engineer could work out by hand in less than a week. --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Aug 30 16:00:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: RX02 Head Gap adjustment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >From past posts, I've managed to repair the electronics in my RX02 drive. > > The problem I'm having now is that the Head Gap won't stay adjusted > correctly. After setup, given a few hours of use, the head settles down and > begins contacting the disk surface. > > I've tried loctite on the adjustment screw, so it isn't what is moving. All > screws on the solenoid appear tight. We are talking about RX02 floppy... right? well if so the hed is normally in contact. the pressure pad however should be about .125" above the media if the drive is not selected. The head only moves back and forth and the pad is lowered via the solinoid to press teh media tight to the head. If you getting scratches on the head side check the head for hardend media gunk. If on the pressure pad side the pad is history and a new peice of felt is in order. Allison From bill at chipware.com Mon Aug 30 16:26:04 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? Message-ID: <000701bef32e$43e61570$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Has my subscription been dropped again? Sorry for the noise. Bill Sudbrink From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Aug 30 16:31:46 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? Message-ID: <01BEF30D.89673780.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Monday, August 30, 1999 5:26 PM, Bill Sudbrink [SMTP:bill@chipware.com] wrote: > Has my subscription been dropped again? > Sorry for the noise. > > Bill Sudbrink > > Bill, I have been receiving some posts but, the quanity has certainly dropped off. The S/N ratio has been pretty high lately. That's a good thing :-) Steve Robertson - From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Aug 30 16:49:46 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? Message-ID: <199908302149.RAA20019@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/2632e86d/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Aug 30 18:14:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? In-Reply-To: <000701bef32e$43e61570$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990830181429.3d1f2c54@mailhost.intellistar.net> No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war to liven things up! Joe At 05:26 PM 8/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >Has my subscription been dropped again? >Sorry for the noise. > >Bill Sudbrink > > From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Aug 30 17:23:58 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Aug 30, 99 06:08:07 pm Message-ID: <199908302224.SAA29961@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/73df5607/attachment.ksh From bo at zimmers.net Mon Aug 30 17:25:14 1999 From: bo at zimmers.net (Bo Zimmerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Greetings... Message-ID: <199908302225.RAA06393@sunny.maxserv.com> Hello folks, This constitutes my first 120 seconds of belonging to this group, and I hope to gather a great amount of amusement and education from being here. I'm just writing to introduce myself, and to brandish a question in yalls general direction. My name is Bo Zimmerman. I've been collecting computers (and calculators, and disk drives, and printers, etc, etc) made by Commodore Business Machines for about three years, with my primary interest being programming and tinkering (upgrading, networking, etc.) If anyone is amused by such things, I maintain a web site of my collection at http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/index.html. My question concerns insurance, and is the reason I was referred to this fine gathering. Does anyone here carry insurance against fire (or theft?!) for their collections? Thanks, Bo Zimmerman From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Aug 30 17:28:33 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990830171004.011a2a60@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Aug 30, 99 05:10:04 pm Message-ID: <199908302228.SAA01559@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/733979a3/attachment.ksh From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Aug 30 17:45:16 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Aug 30, 99 06:31:23 pm Message-ID: <199908302245.SAA05967@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/17002dac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 13:08:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: PDP era and a question In-Reply-To: <19990830014524.25257.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 30, 99 01:45:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1623 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/4b8f9482/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 30 18:00:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? Message-ID: <004801bef33d$54d5b980$0400c0a8@winbook> I hope you're not stating that 9-track drives are not available as SCSI devices, because that's not the case. Those are what kept me from using the S-100 to CIPHER 9-track interface I got some 20 years ago. SCSI was just easier. I've never seen an SMD-interfaced 9-track drive either, though that's not inconceivable. I'd be interested in knowing how this turns out, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: David R. Dick To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Arete/ARIX interest? >> >> >> Is the 9-track a SCSI device? Where are you located? >> Are you looking for a "computer rescue" or to sell these units? > >9 track is *not* a SCSI device. If it is possible for the >tape drive to be SMD, it probably is, because that's what >the disk drives are. > >The machines are in Nashua, New Hampshire and this >is definitely a case of rescue. > >David Dick >Software Innovations >[doing UNIX since 1981] > From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Aug 30 18:18:26 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100/30 Questions References: <37C48F9F.7A2FC85E@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <37CB1142.C1A269E3@halcyon.com> "David C. Jenner" wrote: > I connect the drive, the VS3100 console sees it fine, and then I > try to do a low-level format using Test 75. At various times > (varies randomly) into the formatting progress I get an error > "PV_SCS_FMT_ERR#2", which I have no idea of its meaning. What > does this mean? I discovered the complete error text for this cryptic message. It goes something like this: PV_SCS_FMT_ERR#2: "Take your disk drive and hook it up to your trusty Macintosh and work it over with Hard Disk Toolkit until it works OK on the Mac. Then connect it back up to the VS3100 and it will format successfully." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 18:14:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: RX02 Head Gap adjustment In-Reply-To: from "steve.lubbers@barco.com" at Aug 30, 99 08:29:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/f46a43a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 18:18:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Proprietary FPGA data In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830115007.00a9aac0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Aug 30, 99 11:52:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1346 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/48588dcd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 18:08:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <000f01bef315$2be14940$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 30, 99 12:26:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/4b4e5985/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Aug 30 19:41:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <008901bef349$80da39a0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's certainly possible to buy adapters for some of the larger qfp packages, and making one is a REAL pain in the *ss. It's bad enough that these adapters, by and large, don't have a solder mask, so you have to wear a lupe and check all your solder joints twice . . . Making a device which allows you to "play" with an FPGA is a really useful trick. You can bring out whicever signals you think you need, but you need to be aware of the timing differences between the internal signal and the one you're allowed to "see" from outside. I/O blocks generate delay and are probably best registered. Likewise, if you use an external signal to stimulate some internal mechanism, it is wise to bring it in through a pair of synchronous registers in order to avoid metastability due to setup or hold time violations. In times pretty much gone by, one ran the risk of having the FPGA pinout change due to rerouting. Todays tools generally support pin-locking, i.e. firmly binding the signal to a predefined pin, shuffling other resources instead of reassigning pins when rerouting a circuit. This can, however, impact timing. READ THE FINE PRINT! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 5:56 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> >> There are packaging options which might be utilized to help you in "scoping" >> out your circuit. One of many complaints I have about FPGA's is that they >> have far too many pins to suit me. Well, since there are lots of pins, you >> can obtain a socketable adapter for the package and then work your way >> through the design, changing the "bond-out" by routing the signals you want >> to compare to I/O blocks associated with otherwise unused pins. That way >> you might be able to help yourself figure out strange timing effects between >> internal and external signals, perhaps even allowing you to see the inner >> workings at least to some extent. > >I've done this many times (in fact, IMHO it's the _only_ way to see what >an FPGA circuit is really doing), but a word of warning : > >When you add the extra outputs, you recompile the circuit and probably >change the routing of some signals. Now, these signals will therefore >suffer different routing delays which means that glitches may move about, >appear 'from nowhere' or vanish. > >Yes, I know that a well-designed FPGA circuit won't have problems with >routing delays. But if you're new to FPGA design, especially if you've >done a lot with TTL, you won't expect your wires to give sigificant >(longer than switching time of a gate) delays. > > >> >> The handiest package I've run into for these is the PLCC84, for which you >> can obtain a socket compatible with a wire-wrap adapter. That would allow >> you to do what I described above without interfering with the 40-odd signals >> you might want to inject into your existing application. This same thing >> might be achievable with a larger package, but I have some doubts about >> making the transition from the FPGA package to a wire-wrap socket. You >> might have to make an adapter PCB or buy one from Samtech or Emulation >> Technology. Those get expensive. > > >You can get SIL strips of wire-wrap socket pins that you can cut to >length. If you solder/glue these to a suitable piece of matrix board you >can make up a socket to hold just about any PGA chip, or indeed a >solder-type PLCC socket. > >Most FPGAs (certainly from Xilinx) are available in PGA packages -- at a >price. > >BGA and PQFP are a little harder to handle, and you may well have to make >up an adapter board. > >-tony > From rcini at msn.com Mon Aug 30 19:31:09 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Copy of Windows for Pen Computing Message-ID: <008f01bef34a$15662de0$e992fea9@office1> Hello, all: Does anyone have a copy of Windows (3.1) for Pen Computing that they could spare?? A friend of mine got a Telxon tablet computer with no software, but supposedly it uses PenWin. Thanks! Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 19:02:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? In-Reply-To: <004801bef33d$54d5b980$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 30, 99 05:00:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 905 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/ffb91357/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Aug 30 20:08:37 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990830181429.3d1f2c54@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <000701bef32e$43e61570$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830210736.00ab0de0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:14 PM 8/30/99 +0000, Joe said something like: >No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war to >liven things up! NO! Please. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Aug 30 20:24:37 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 31, 99 01:02:35 am Message-ID: <199908310124.VAA19793@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/40c14abd/attachment.ksh From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Aug 30 20:25:32 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Arete/ARIX interest? In-Reply-To: <004801bef33d$54d5b980$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 30, 99 05:00:27 pm Message-ID: <199908310125.VAA20017@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 459 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990830/ea19f72b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 20:09:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <008901bef349$80da39a0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 30, 99 06:41:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/895bff2f/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 30 20:48:20 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: on Landfilled Lisas Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990830204820.011ed520@vpwisfirewall> This is an antique computer related note from the Dead Media mailing list. - John >Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:39:44 -0500 >To: Dead Media List >From: Richard Kadrey >Reply-To: >Subject: > >Dead medium: the Apple Lisa > >From: Bruce Sterling (bruces@well.com) > >Source: American Heritage of Invention and Technology magazine, Summer >1999, Vol 15 Number 1, page 64, article by Tim Hall > >"Poor Little Lisa" by Tim Hall > > "One September day in 1989 about 2,700 Apple Lisa computers were >unceremoniously buried in a landfill in Logan, Utah. In an industry where >rapid obsolescence is not only the norm but a goal, the mass burial elicited >few tears from anyone except insiders. Yet this prosaic event put an end to >perhaps the greatest and most revolutionary failure in the history of >computing. > > "Apple Computer had been founded in Los Altos, California, in 1976. By >1978 it was enjoying tremendous growth and vying for dominance in the >nascent home-computer market. The company's newest project, code-named Lisa >(supposedly after the daughter of Steve Jobs, one of Apple's cofounders), >was meant to be the successor to the extremely popular Apple II. After Jobs >visited the Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) twice in >late 1979, however, those plans changed radically. > > "Many essentials of modern computing, including networking and laser >printers, were developed at PARC. What caught Jobs's fancy was a prototype >machine named Alto that had an array of features never before seen on a >computer. Its heart was the Graphical User Interface (GUI). (...) > > "Jobs thought Alto was the future of computing, and he reportedly ran >around the PARC research room saying so. Xerox's brass, however, did not >share his enthusiasm. Since it would have sold for an estimated $400,000 >per unit, Alto was never meant to be mass-marketed. Xerox considered it an >unmarketable, if fascinating, anomaly. > > "Undeterred, Jobs and his team set about incorporating the spirit of >Alto's GUI == along with its rodent accessory == into Lisa. After nearly >200 many-years of work and $50 million, Lisa made her debut on January 19, >1983. She was a marvel. Directories were represented with line drawings of >a manila folder, and there was even a little wastebasket for disposing of >unwanted ones. (...) > > "Apple had high hopes for Lisa, but there were problems. First of all, >there was the price: nearly $10,000. Also, because of the technological >sophistication and memory requirements of the GUI and the other features >Apple stuffed into her, the 48-pound Lisa was not only chubby but awkward >and slow. Faced with mounting competition from cheaper, zippier machines, >she quickly fell behind. Even the machine's friendly moniker worked against >it; corporate managers balked at purchasing a computer with a little girl's >name when they could have a much more impressive-sounding PDP11/45. Jobs >had estimated that Apple would sell 50,000 Lisas in the first year, but it >took nearly two years to reach that goal. > > "After re-engineering and improvements, a Lisa II was introduced. The >name was later changed to XL, which insiders joked stood for 'Xtra Lisas' in >the inventory. Jobs, meanwhile, was working on a secret new machine, one >that was rumored to be smaller, faster and less than half as expensive as >Lisa. The rumors only hastened Lisa's demise. Unwanted and unappreciated, >Lisa was abandoned in the spring of 1985 in favor of Jobs's new computer, >which was called Macintosh. > > "Apple consigned its remaining inventory to Sun Remarketing of Utah, >which had some success refurbishing and modernizing the Lisas with >up-to-date technology. But eventually this, too, came to a halt when Apple >decided to take a tax write-off on its unsold inventory. In September 1989, >almost a decade after Jobs had first witnessed the Alto in action, the last >2,700 Lisas were ignominously buried in an unmarked grave, closing the book >on the first mass-marketed computer to use the standard on which virtually >all computers would run." > > > From jritorto at nut.net Mon Aug 30 21:02:13 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Tony (Duell), [or anyone else interested for that matter] want to help me with my 11/45 again? I just found out that I again have too much time on my hands, so I'm ready to try some more. I've moved to a new house and brought my entire pdp11 collection with me (most of it is in the garage). I placed the '45 (w/ two TU10s, a stack of RK05s, a rack of SMD disks, and a tek4015) in the 'great room' here and there's plenty of room to tinker. BTW, it looks really cool with my red walls. I think I'm going to keep it here permanently. Here's a little refresher as to what we were on last time: TIA jake PS. Is this a grant thing perhaps? What if somebody took a DMA device out of one of the slots without replacing the jumper? Would it do this? On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hey All, sorry I took so long to get back to this topic, but things have > > been hectic and there's been no time for Geek Stuff. :( :( :( > > > > I removed the extraneous things from the bus (namely the external box of > > memory and the three core SUs), so now I have only the 11/45 backplane > > with an M930 in the last slot. Still the same symptoms on the front > > panel. > > OK, it _is_ an M930 terminator and not an M9302, then. I was going to ask > you about that. The reason is that the later M9302 board can 'lock the > unibus' if there are grant problems. An M930 won't. > > > > > > > The probe of J14 revealed the following: > > > > on 2&3: exactly 15VDC (this is the 15v source you ask about being > > present and correct, isn't it?) > > Sounds perfect to me. And yet _both_ H745s are giving no output? > > There should be an H745 in the rear slot of the top PSU. It has an 8 pin > connector on top. Pin 1 is the -15V output. Pins 4 and 5 are a +15V > (control-ish) input. > > > on 8 : about 4VDC > > Sounds right. > > > on 10 : Zero. > > Puzzling, but not necessarily a problem yet... > > > on 12 : about 4VDC > > Sounds right again. > > > > > > To answer a few of your other questions: > > I don't have a KM11 maintenance board. > > Pity. I didn't think you'd have one, but it was worth asking. > > > I have the 8-pin, flat power connectors on my CPU. > > I think _all_ 11/45 systems have the 8 pin connectors on the CPU > backplane. The difference is how the extra System Unit backplanes get power > On old machined (pre S/N 2000?) there was a PCB on the inside back of the > CPU box. It had a number of 8-pin flat connectors on it. The system units > plugged into that. > > On later machines there was a board on top of the CPU fram on the RHS > (over the 'hole' that goes over the PSUs). System units had the > conventional 15 pin and 6 pin connectors. > > > > > Which schematics are you using? > > I have the DEC field maintenance printset for the 11/45 (both versions). > > > What should I do next? > > You mentioned that 'both -15V outputs are low' Which pins of which > connectors are you measuring? At the PSU there are 3 -15V lines on my > diagrams - pin one of P21 (top PSU rear slot H745), pin one of P25 > (bottom PSU, front slot, H745) and pin 4 of P22 (bottom PSU, 12 pin > connector on transformer housing). Which (any/all?) of those are missing? > > -tony > > > From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Aug 30 21:54:44 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? Message-ID: <4c44598c.24fc9df4@aol.com> In a message dated 08/30/1999 9:09:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cfandt@netsync.net writes: > Upon the date 06:14 PM 8/30/99 +0000, Joe said something like: > >No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war to > >liven things up! > > NO! Please. Well, it was touch & go for a bit with Tony & Richard ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From hrothgar at total.net Tue Aug 31 01:25:28 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: Hi, I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). It was easy to get home because it was only two streets over, and the wheels roll nicely. It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next year's Soap Box Derby. I'm also planning on building some shelves into it, to justify its space requirements. The machine DOES work. I plugged it into my Amiga, and managed to get it to draw a bicycle from an old PD CAD package off a magazine disk. It keeps chewing on the flimsy paper I've got, though. It has an HPIB port on it, so I'll have to write a HPGL driver for my PET one of these days. ;) Anyone know how old this thing is? HP's web site lists "DraftMaster" as one of their trademarks, but I couldn't find much else out about it. I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Aug 31 03:40:41 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: haggling (was Re: Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)) In-Reply-To: <990829220126.232007af@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >OTOH, I've learned that if you want to get rid of something, you shouldn't >necessarily just say "it's free, come and get it". After all, many potential >takers think that if it's free, it can't be all that desirable. But attach >a price tag and all of a sudden folks want to come up and wheel and deal! The fine art of the "right" price. I have two 15" subwoofers setting in my garage that I now know I will NEVER use, so I put an ad in the local Recycler for $15 each. I got 7 or 8 calls, and the first question each time was whats wrong with them. It makes eBay seem pretty nice some times. In fact I think I will list them right now. ;) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 31 07:54:36 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Greetings... In-Reply-To: <199908302225.RAA06393@sunny.maxserv.com> Message-ID: <199908311055.MAA23228@horus.mch.sni.de> > My name is Bo Zimmerman. I've been collecting computers (and calculators, > and disk drives, and printers, etc, etc) made by Commodore Business Machines > for about three years, with my primary interest being programming and > tinkering (upgrading, networking, etc.) If anyone is amused by such things, > I maintain a web site of my collection at > http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/index.html. Well, nice pages, even a B500! > My question concerns insurance, and is the reason I was referred to this > fine gathering. Does anyone here carry insurance against fire (or theft?!) > for their collections? Well, I have an insurance for my new storage, but I guess it isn't easy to take this as an example. Basicly we agreed on a value for my inventory list, and an additional value for possible (*g*) new aquisitions, and I pay a premium for that. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 31 00:49:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's Message-ID: <00a501bef3b8$7eb6e500$0400c0a8@winbook> These problems have arisen from the unfortunate fact that they're easy to fix, though it's not very efficient use of the silicon. Since there's plenty of it, not many of us are concerned about that any more. Since there's a pipeline register in every CLB, you might as well build your circuits as synchronous ones. See my comments below, please. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 7:28 PM Subject: Re: FPGAs and PDP-11's >> In times pretty much gone by, one ran the risk of having the FPGA pinout >> change due to rerouting. Todays tools generally support pin-locking, i.e. >> firmly binding the signal to a predefined pin, shuffling other resources >> instead of reassigning pins when rerouting a circuit. This can, however, >> impact timing. READ THE FINE PRINT! > >Any FPGA tool that doesn't let you assign pins yourself is fundamentally >broken IMHO. The whole point of an FPGA is that you can make changes to >the logic (and thus fix bugs) without having to redesign the PCB. > Choosing the pins at the outset isn't as important to me as choosing to have them remain what they become after the first route. > >Every FPGA tool I've used has let you assign a pin number to the I/O points. > >However, that's not what I was refering to. I was talking about the fact >that when you make a change to the circuit, the compiler will probably >re-route internal signals. Adding an output counts as a change, of course. > >And when it re-routes signals, said signals will change in timing. And >when that happens, you have the possibility, in a badly designed circuit, >of getting glitches. > I'd make two points about these comments. They're right, of course, seen in the proper light, but they're really not the case at all. Taking the second one first, synchronous circuits do not produce glitches. By definition, the outputs are clocked at the same rate as the inputs, which are, if properly designed, clocked so as to let the signals settle between clocks, there can be no glitches. Outputs are clocked, not gated. It's possible to build circuits which have glitches, but not recommended. With a synchronous circuit, the only concern, and it is significant, is the clock skew. Careful planning and cautious design can minimize/mitigate this risk. Additionally, though my experience with this phenomenon is limited, it was considered advisable to let the software determine the pinouts on the first pass through the routing process, thereby making the timing constraints the primary priority for the router to manage. Subsequent routes, particularly changes to other parts of the circuits than the critical pinouts, can be allowed to be automatically assigned as well later, but the important pins held constant, or locked. Since these routing algorithms do strange things, it's still possible you won't get the pin assignment you prefer, your odds are improved in this way. > >[....] > >> >I've done this many times (in fact, IMHO it's the _only_ way to see what >> >an FPGA circuit is really doing), but a word of warning : >> > >> >When you add the extra outputs, you recompile the circuit and probably >> >change the routing of some signals. Now, these signals will therefore >> >suffer different routing delays which means that glitches may move about, >> >appear 'from nowhere' or vanish. > Glitches can only occur when transient signals are propagated through a combinatorial stage. If circuits are pipelined correctly (meaning for the circuit in particular, not according to some cookbook) decoders' inputs will be registered, and their outputs will also be registered, hence, they can't generate glitches. Routing delays must be considered, and the skew of the clock can, therefore engender routing races, but these must be taken into account when computing the system clock rate. The clock must be chosen such that it doesn't allow such glitching. Metastability can also become a risk when different segments of a circuit are clocked with different generations of the same clock or with entirely different ones. Mitigation for those hazards must also be provided. > >> >Yes, I know that a well-designed FPGA circuit won't have problems with >> >routing delays. But if you're new to FPGA design, especially if you've >> >done a lot with TTL, you won't expect your wires to give sigificant >> >(longer than switching time of a gate) delays. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 31 09:00:13 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? Message-ID: <00c701bef3bb$c3564f40$0400c0a8@winbook> Hey! You're supposed to read all that stuff! It's important educational material! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)? >In a message dated 08/30/1999 9:09:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >cfandt@netsync.net writes: > >> Upon the date 06:14 PM 8/30/99 +0000, Joe said something like: >> >No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war >to >> >liven things up! >> >> NO! Please. > >Well, it was touch & go for a bit with Tony & Richard ;>) > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 From bo at zimmers.net Tue Aug 31 09:21:10 1999 From: bo at zimmers.net (Bo Zimmerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Greetings... In-Reply-To: <199908311055.MAA23228@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199908311421.JAA13604@sunny.maxserv.com> > > My name is Bo Zimmerman. I've been collecting computers > (and calculators, > > and disk drives, and printers, etc, etc) made by Commodore > Business Machines > > for about three years, with my primary interest being programming and > > tinkering (upgrading, networking, etc.) If anyone is amused by > such things, > > I maintain a web site of my collection at > > http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/index.html. > > Well, nice pages, even a B500! Thanks :) > > > My question concerns insurance, and is the reason I was > referred to this > > fine gathering. Does anyone here carry insurance against fire > (or theft?!) > > for their collections? > > Well, I have an insurance for my new storage, but I guess it isn't > easy to take this as an example. Basicly we agreed on a value for > my inventory list, and an additional value for possible (*g*) new > aquisitions, and I pay a premium for that. > > Gruss > H. Well Gruss, if you were just about anywhere else, I would be asking for names and phone numbers. I doubt a German company would insure me here though. :) Still, I discovered yesterday that independent insurance agents will at least ENTERTAIN the idea. I'm supposed to get calls back from them today, but considering past experience, I'm not optomistic. - Bo From edick at idcomm.com Tue Aug 31 09:26:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: <00cc01bef3bc$d60b0440$0400c0a8@winbook> The Draftmaster series was "current" in '88. We bought them for about $10K each in '88, though I routinely see them offered nowadays at $200. There are drivers for Windows, though I've never gotten them to work with my 7585, which was the heavier and similar model without the chart-feed (roll-fed paper). Pens from third parties are readily available and the device operates as either DCE or DTE via RS232, or HPIB. The models we bought for Martin Marietta were ETHERNET-interfaced, so that option is available as well. These have been "sucked" off the market by the vendors of vinyl signs, which can be cut from the roll-fed paper-backed vinyl stock from which they're made. These are the signs you commonly see stuck to the inside of shop windows. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 11:44 PM Subject: HP DraftMaster I >Hi, > >I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part >design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett >Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). > >It was easy to get home because it was only two streets over, and the >wheels roll nicely. > >It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next >year's Soap Box Derby. > >I'm also planning on building some shelves into it, to justify its space >requirements. > >The machine DOES work. I plugged it into my Amiga, and managed to get >it to draw a bicycle from an old PD CAD package off a magazine disk. It >keeps chewing on the flimsy paper I've got, though. > >It has an HPIB port on it, so I'll have to write a HPGL driver for my >PET one of these days. ;) > >Anyone know how old this thing is? HP's web site lists "DraftMaster" as >one of their trademarks, but I couldn't find much else out about it. > >I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in >downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. > >-- >Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: >hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Aug 31 11:39:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Consul(was:: Nothing since (8/29/99 10:03 PM)?) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830210736.00ab0de0@206.231.8.2> References: <3.0.1.16.19990830181429.3d1f2c54@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199908311440.QAA06136@horus.mch.sni.de> > >No, it's just been unusally quite. Maybe we need another good flame war to > >liven things up! > NO! Please. SO, what about a diskusion about how and when we shut start to talk about talks ? (oops ... to much politics :) SCNR H. BTW: Has anybody informations about Czech Consul computers ? -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From walraven at multiwareinc.com Tue Aug 31 10:31:13 1999 From: walraven at multiwareinc.com (Robert Walraven) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Some Classic stuff Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990831083107.008ec100@dcn.davis.ca.us> I have the following classic equipment that is looking for a good home: DEC Rainbow with software and LA50 printer DEC Professional 380 + RT11 operating system Tektronix 4107A Graphics Terminal Falco Terminal Boxes of serial cables Boxes of mag tape Piles of 8" floppies Old software (10+ years) Complete VMS Doc Set (Yes, it is over 10 years old.) Lots of RT-11 Documentation, including Fortran manuals (I developed RT-11 Fortran77 for Digital.) If you can take it away, it is yours. I'm located in Davis, CA, which is near Sacramento. -- Robert Walraven walraven@multiwareinc.com http://www.multiwareinc.com Multiware, Inc. Phone: 530-756-3291 216 F Street, Suite 161 Fax: 530-756-3292 Davis, CA 95616 From cureau at centuryinter.net Tue Aug 31 11:35:03 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: Some Classic stuff References: <3.0.32.19990831083107.008ec100@dcn.davis.ca.us> Message-ID: <37CC0436.BE3264A9@centuryinter.net> Hey, Robert... :-) I _really_ could use some of this equipment...especially the Vax manuals and the Professional 380. However, I'm nowhere near California... :-\ Perhaps we could make a deal somehow? I'd be more than happy to pay all shipping costs plus some extra for your trouble. Please let me know... Cheers, Chris Robert Walraven wrote: > I have the following classic equipment that is looking for a good home: > > DEC Rainbow with software and LA50 printer > DEC Professional 380 + RT11 operating system > Tektronix 4107A Graphics Terminal > Falco Terminal > > Boxes of serial cables > Boxes of mag tape > Piles of 8" floppies > Old software (10+ years) > > Complete VMS Doc Set (Yes, it is over 10 years old.) > Lots of RT-11 Documentation, including Fortran manuals > (I developed RT-11 Fortran77 for Digital.) > > If you can take it away, it is yours. I'm located in Davis, CA, > which is near Sacramento. > > -- Robert Walraven > walraven@multiwareinc.com > http://www.multiwareinc.com > Multiware, Inc. Phone: 530-756-3291 > 216 F Street, Suite 161 Fax: 530-756-3292 > Davis, CA 95616 From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Tue Aug 31 12:10:04 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: old com 64 (fwd) Message-ID: Here's someone with a C64 system they want to get rid of. Please contact the owner for details. Reply-to: NHansen132@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 15:04:08 EDT From: NHansen132@aol.com To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: old com 64 I have a Commodore 64 with monitor, ram expansion, floppy drive and software. Are you interested? ;~) Nancy Hansen~nhansen132@aol.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 12:20:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:04 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: from "Jacob Ritorto" at Aug 30, 99 10:02:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1107 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/e811096d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 12:33:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: FPGAs and PDP-11's In-Reply-To: <00a501bef3b8$7eb6e500$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 30, 99 11:49:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4085 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/a15799e0/attachment.ksh From sieler2 at allegro.com Tue Aug 31 13:53:22 1999 From: sieler2 at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: [HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home (fwd) Message-ID: <199908311853.LAA11332@bart.allegro.com> Hi, Posted on the HP3000-L mailing list: Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:56:49 -0400 > From: Larry Folk > Subject: [HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home > > Looking for good homes for the following: > > 1 - HP3000 series 70 > 1 - HP3000 series 52 > 4 - 7937 disc drives > 3 - 7963 disc drives > 1 - 2617 line printer > 1 - 7974 tape drive > > All in working order....will be decommissioned soon! > > You pay packing/shipping cost and save us landfill space! > > Also have numerous 710 and 735 systems, multiplexers and miscellaneous > "stuff" available. > > ============================================================== > Larry Folk Kline Iron & Steel Co., Inc. > Information Systems Manager 1225 Huger Street > 803-251-8026 Fax 803-251-8080 Columbia, SC 29201 > Mailto:larryfolk@klinesteel.com http://www.klinesteel.com > ============================================================== -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler/ From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 31 14:31:39 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote: [snip] > With any PDP11 -- No, Any PDP -- No, any computer -- the first task is > to get the power supplies working. If you've got a missing/low power > rail, fix that first. There is no point in looking for logic faults > until the supplies are right. Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when there's no logic plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely. Doesn't that indicate a 'logic' problem? Or at least a short somewhere on the logic boards? I'm going to try plugging in only one power jumper at a time, testing after each one. Maybe that'll trim down the area the short's coming from... Please stop me if this is going to blow something up. I don't know what else to try at this point... thanks. jake From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Aug 31 14:57:06 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990831125706.0087e2f0@mail.sfu.ca> At 03:31 PM 31/08/99 -0400, you wrote: >Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when there's no logic >plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all >the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely. >Doesn't that indicate a 'logic' problem? Or at least a short somewhere on >the logic boards? These are old switching supplies with outputs that vary by load. Look on the -15VDC regulator. It'll be on the shelf behind the huge/heavy H742 (hmm it may be an H744, I can't remember...) supply: there'll be a little potentiometer on the unit that will allow you to adjust the voltage levels. Set it to put out -15VDC with all connections in place. You'll then see that with the unit running standalone, that it'll show a bit higher than 15 V. By the way, can you quantify "severely"? Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 31 16:33:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: FSOT: Decmate II word processing SW Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990831163357.21bf4c32@mailhost.intellistar.net> I picked up three slip cases of DecMate II word processing software that I don't need. I'll sell it or trade it for something that I can use. The cases and manuals have some water damage and a few of the pages are stuck together but most of the damage is cosmetic. I didn't see any disks so it's cases and manuals only. Box 1: Word Processing, the Basics. Box 2: Word Processing options, Word Processing using Math. Box 3: Word Processing User's Guide. Make an offer if you're interested or it goes back to the dumpster. Joe From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 31 15:41:40 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 References: <3.0.5.32.19990831125706.0087e2f0@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <37CC3E04.A6C0DAA@rain.org> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > At 03:31 PM 31/08/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when there's no logic > >plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all > >the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely. > >Doesn't that indicate a 'logic' problem? Or at least a short somewhere on > >the logic boards? > > These are old switching supplies with outputs that vary by load. I thought the 11/45s had a linear supply? From jritorto at nut.net Tue Aug 31 15:49:39 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: <37CC3E04.A6C0DAA@rain.org> Message-ID: > Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > > > At 03:31 PM 31/08/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >Sure, but the thing is, the PS seems to be fine when there's no logic > > >plugged in. It puts out -15VDC right on the money. When I connect all > > >the mate-n'-locs to the logic cage, the voltage dies down severely. severely = -2VDC instead of -15VDC. :( From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 15:36:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: from "Jacob Ritorto" at Aug 31, 99 03:31:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/3da8e909/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 31 17:09:08 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990831170908.3c3f4ca8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:25 AM 8/31/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >Hi, > >I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part >design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett >Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). > >It was easy to get home because it was only two streets over, and the >wheels roll nicely. > >It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next >year's Soap Box Derby. > >I'm also planning on building some shelves into it, to justify its space >requirements. > >The machine DOES work. I plugged it into my Amiga, and managed to get >it to draw a bicycle from an old PD CAD package off a magazine disk. It >keeps chewing on the flimsy paper I've got, though. > >It has an HPIB port on it, so I'll have to write a HPGL driver for my >PET one of these days. ;) > >Anyone know how old this thing is? Look at the serial number. Add 1960 to the first two digits and that will tell you what year it was made. The second pair of digits will tell you the week that it was made. HP's web site lists "DraftMaster" as >one of their trademarks, but I couldn't find much else out about it. > >I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in >downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. Yes, they're NICE plotters. Unfortunately, everyone is throwing them out and replacing them with ink jets. I rescued two of them but couldn't even give them away. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 15:57:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: <37CC3E04.A6C0DAA@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Aug 31, 99 01:41:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1031 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990831/ab97931f/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Aug 31 16:47:00 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990831170908.3c3f4ca8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: > At 01:25 AM 8/31/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part > >design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett > >Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). > > > >It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next > >year's Soap Box Derby. I hope you are kidding... B^} > >I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in > >downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. > > Yes, they're NICE plotters. Unfortunately, everyone is throwing them out > and replacing them with ink jets. I rescued two of them but couldn't > even give them away. Now that is sad... I have a few plotters in my collection, including a 7586B unit with the roll feed option. Now, granted they are no good for printing wall sized 'photo-realistic' posters, (which is what the large format inkjets at work seem to spend a lot of time doing) but for working drawings and such they are just fine and (IMHO) a great deal more fun to watch than the carriage on one of the 'PrintJet' units wandering back and forth... Great fun actually in demos driven off of an old version of AutoCAD set for full 'Pen optimization'. Give it a large multi-layered drawing (the starship Enterprise is a good one) and watch people stare it as the pen runs all over the drawing area drawing apparently random line segments for a good long time until it finally starts to resemble something recognizable. I always wondered just what their definition of 'optimization' really was... B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Aug 31 16:10:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: pdp11/45 In-Reply-To: <37CC3E04.A6C0DAA@rain.org> Message-ID: > > These are old switching supplies with outputs that vary by load. They shouldnt unless the load is way to light. > I thought the 11/45s had a linear supply? They are H74x low voltage switchers. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Aug 31 19:37:10 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990831170908.3c3f4ca8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990831193710.3c3f443c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:47 PM 8/31/99 -0700, Jim wrote: >On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: >> At 01:25 AM 8/31/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >> >Hi, >> > >> >I thought I'd break in amongst all the big-brained stuff about part >> >design and announce to the world that I've garbage-picked a Hewlett >> >Packard DraftMaster I (7595A). >> > >> >It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next >> >year's Soap Box Derby. > >I hope you are kidding... B^} > > > >> >I used to work as a CAD operator at one of the big engineering firms in >> >downtown Montreal, so this is a cool find. >> >> Yes, they're NICE plotters. Unfortunately, everyone is throwing them out >> and replacing them with ink jets. I rescued two of them but couldn't >> even give them away. > >Now that is sad... I have a few plotters in my collection, including a >7586B unit with the roll feed option. I have a couple of HP 7550s. They're real work horses! I have one connected to my PC via RS-232. Win 3.1 even has drivers for it. It's great fun to write letters in different colors and then watch it "write" them all out in multiple colors! Of course it only handles vectors so it's no good for printing pictures and the like. I also have a bunch of old HP 7221s, 7225s, and 9772s including a couple of them with the paper feed roll options to go with my old HP calculators. They're nice plottes but they're all big and heavy. The ones with the roll paper feed are absolutely huge! Joe From lance at costanzo.net Tue Aug 31 18:47:41 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: [HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990831164741.0068dfd4@costanzo.net> buncha junk! :) lance Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com From lance at costanzo.net Tue Aug 31 19:24:56 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: [HP3000-L] HP3000 Classics - Looking for a good home (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990831172455.006ca01c@costanzo.net> Sorry about this. Was meant to go only to Stan. Long day. At 04:47 PM 8/31/99 -0700, you wrote: >buncha junk! :) Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Aug 31 19:57:16 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? Message-ID: <001c01bef414$f0862900$0101a8c0@jay> Primarily for nostalgic reasons, I want a 9" video monitor and terminal keyboard on one of my systems. I've had the Micro-Term ACT-IVa keyboard for some time, and recently got a 9" monitor to go with it. When I powered up the monitor and keyboard, I noticed that the display is slightly twisted (I think the correct term is trapezoid, where the distance from the top of the left end of the printed line to the top of the screen is not the same distance from the top right end of the same line to the top of the screen - the lines run downhill slightly). My question is - is this a tell-tale sign that indicates a worse problem is imminent? I don't mind the slight run downhill on the screen, but if that's a sign of worse to come, I'd just assume return the monitor and get a different one. There is no adjustment pot that I can see internal or external for this "twisting" effect. Thanks in advance! Jay West From rcini at msn.com Tue Aug 31 18:52:26 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Byte 7/76 issue Message-ID: <000601bef41d$5bd3f900$e992fea9@office1> Hello, all: Does anyone have the 7/76 issue of Byte??? There's an article in it relating to AMS-80, a pseudo operating system/monitor for S100 machines. A related article, which I have, appeared in the 9/79 issue, the "Amsat-Golem-80." The AG80 article was effectively a product specification for a build-it-yourself Z80-based front-panel S100 machine. Seven pages of generalities. Arrrgh. As always, thanks. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Aug 31 21:22:04 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? Message-ID: If the image is square but just tilted then the fix is usually easy. The yoke is twisted on the neck of the CRT. Take the back off the case. Locate and loosen the locking screw, normally only one. Rotate the yoke to correct the tilt. Be very careful, many loose high voltages. I like putting a mirror in front of the screen so I can see where I put my hands. Good luck. Paxton From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Aug 31 20:00:42 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Byte 7/76 issue In-Reply-To: <000601bef41d$5bd3f900$e992fea9@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990831200042.2dd7d838@earthlink.net> At 07:52 PM 8/31/99 -0400, Rich wrote: >Hello, all: > > Does anyone have the 7/76 issue of Byte??? There's an article in it >relating to AMS-80, a pseudo operating system/monitor for S100 machines. > Yes, I have that issue, but couldn't find any article on the AMS-80 monitor. Do you mean the 9/76 issue (which I will have to look up)? -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Aug 31 20:03:28 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990831200328.2dd7cff6@earthlink.net> At 10:22 PM 8/31/99 EDT, you wrote: >If the image is square but just tilted then the fix is usually easy. The yoke >is twisted on the neck of the CRT. Take the back off the case. Locate and >loosen the locking screw, normally only one. Rotate the yoke to correct the >tilt. Be very careful, many loose high voltages. I like putting a mirror in >front of the screen so I can see where I put my hands. >Good luck. >Paxton Or do the adjustment with the monitor (deflection coils and all) off and CRT discharged. After 1 or 2, it's usually close enough. -Dave From donm at cts.com Tue Aug 31 23:56:24 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > If the image is square but just tilted then the fix is usually easy. The yoke > is twisted on the neck of the CRT. Take the back off the case. Locate and > loosen the locking screw, normally only one. Rotate the yoke to correct the > tilt. Be very careful, many loose high voltages. I like putting a mirror in > front of the screen so I can see where I put my hands. > Good luck. > Paxton And I being more cowardly like to power down and let sit for a while and make the adjustment 'cold'. Then power up and see how you did. Repeat if necessary. - don From garethknight at contactbox.co.uk Thu Aug 26 19:22:21 1999 From: garethknight at contactbox.co.uk (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:06 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! References: Message-ID: <00ca01bef022$a2d0cda0$429dfea9@gaz> >all I could get on my Apple composite > monitor was a green screen with a blank area at the top A green screen is a Chip memory error or a loose connection between the chips and socket. Take the cover off and check the connection. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide - http://welcome.to/aig From hansp at digiweb.com Tue Aug 31 23:48:10 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:06 2005 Subject: Byte 7/76 issue References: <000601bef41d$5bd3f900$e992fea9@office1> Message-ID: <37CCB00A.1CF99207@digiweb.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have the 7/76 issue of Byte??? There's an article in it > relating to AMS-80, a pseudo operating system/monitor for S100 machines. If you mean "AMSAT 8080 Standard Debug Monitor : AMS80 Version 2" by Richard C Allen and Joe Kasser. Its in the September (not July) 1976 issue. And yes I have a copy. Want a scan? Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue